| IVOD_ID |
16262 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16262 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-14T08:31:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-14T13:32:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:00:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68510c4563b5e5bf20ab6918ac9a8133975edb79b8bfb08e7998ec91c71b58e4eaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案。
二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)(僅詢答)
四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案。(僅詢答)
【業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:01 - 13:32:00 |
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SPEAKER_24 |
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SPEAKER_24 |
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18045.76784375 |
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18058.40721875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1965.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1990.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好,出席委員以主法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄。立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年11月4日星期一9時1分至13時30分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員趙姿等16人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1990.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2012.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
主席蘇趙及委員侵權。報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定。二、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部食品藥物管理署決議五、六及二十一預算凍結書面報告案。決定同意動之並提報院會。邀請衛生福利部部長針對社區精神病患照護優化進行專題報告並備質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2014.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2038.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
本次會議由衛生福利部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等21人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆委員如現已所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2041.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2064.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
沒有齁。好。那一事務確定本日會議一成為繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案。那二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算關於環境部主管公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2065.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2092.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
以及基金預算以及環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案。那這個是只有詢答以上業務報告及這個討論事項才綜合詢答。現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員林岳勤委員王振旭委員林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2094.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2122.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好,那現在處理113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案2案請一併宣讀。報告事項二,衛生福利部含為113年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送食品藥物管理署預算凍結書面報告案2案如下,第一案決議1至3,第二案決議4,宣讀完畢。好,那有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案總共2案有沒有異議? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2124.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2126.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有吼那無意義就就這樣通過好謝謝那我們這個凍結案吼就處理完了吼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2138.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2145.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀、會計處張玉珍處長、食品藥物管理署林金富副署長、 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2167.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2194.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
行政院主計總處公務預算處檢任視察李培元基金預算處吳婉玉專門委員環境部彭啟明部長綜合規劃司洪淑信司長環境保護司徐淑芷司長大氣環境司張順清司長水質保護司王月斌司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2196.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2203.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
監測資訊師謝炳輝司長秘書處梁婉玲處長人事處楊良斌處長會計處陳靜心處長法治處林芬處長政風處王永福處長統計處侯美玲處長氣候變遷署蔡玲怡署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2225.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2244.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
資源循環署賴英穎署長環境管理署顏旭明署長化學物質管理署謝彥儒署長國家環境研究院劉忠勇院長財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會呂理德董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2246.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2272.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
財團法人環境與發展基金會總經理蔡仁傑總經理財團法人大科砍環境永續發展基金會蔡孟芬董事長財團法人環境權保障基金會屠右文執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2276.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2281.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那衛福部就可以先離開了。我們凍結案就處理完了。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2300.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2316.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好那呃彭部長這個報告之前吼先做以下宣告吼114年度環境部公務及基金預算案以及環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案委員針對審查之書書面提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2320.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2332.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
請於11月19日下午5點前以書面送交本委員會辦公室。接下來請彭部長就本日會議議程環境部業務概況及預算審查並案報告。時間10分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2342.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2365.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
朝委還有各位委員還有與會的官員大家好那我由我環境部來做環境部的業務報告待會再做預算的報告首先呢環境部的角色是以保護台灣的環境的健康是為執制但是我們要帶動國人的風氣其實也要跨部會的整合也要中央跟地方一起合作跟環團跟產業密切合作其實我們除了過去的監管者的角色還要加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2366.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2392.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
綜合者跟推動者的這個目的在裡面齁那我們其實過去呢完成了非常的多我從520上任之後大概完成了重點工作如這個表所示那不一樣顏色呢是我們自己花了很多時間特別跟可能跟過去不一樣的例如說我們把氣候法這個相關的三職法還有碳費的制度終於可以上路了那接下來呢還有包含了空品標準甚至我們SRF還有垃圾的裸露的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2393.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2409.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們大概都有一些妥善的處理那未來呢我們會推動這個淨零的綠領人才培育還有相關的環境部的相關的計畫這個是我們過去半年成果的重點工作跟委員報告那未來呢我舉例像昨天的就是我們跟台積電合作一個MOU |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2410.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2411.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2433.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2450.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
゚✧✧ |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2450.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2470.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我這邊提出大概有三件事情特別跟委員報告一個是環評我們在環境保護為優先的情況下我們要鼓勵我們國內的再生能源的開發這個包含了在這個敏感區域跟這個山坡地它的這個太陽光電必須有效的管理這個是過去沒有的也感謝委員會的要求在三個會期的要求小水利、地熱發電、變電站或試驗型計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2472.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2473.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
bicyclist 森林森林森林 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2496.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2497.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2519.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2519.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
關於環境部部長列席報告案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2539.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2540.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
bicyclone 公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2562.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2588.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
゚✧✧✧✧ |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2589.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2614.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
其實委員都非常的清楚所有的減量的目標空污的減少、碳排的減少、用煤量的減少都有顯著的承諾那天才會過關的我身為環境部長也必須要保護我們環評委員的專業在這個地方先跟委員報告那另外一個也關心了碳費的運用其實碳費的運用在氣候變遷因應法裡面有13項的用途裡面有一項就是給地方那地方呢其實我們過去的經驗包含空污法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2614.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2615.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
covariate to the |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2634.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2655.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
゚≥≥ |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2656.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2672.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但是這個還是以減碳我們最新做的民調來看的話民眾是支持的希望把它用在減碳最大量的目標而不是完全是用在這個分配給地方地方一定要用但是這個還是要有一些專業的一個判斷那我來報告基金預算案的部分我們環境部呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2674.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2695.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
總共有這個11項的這個施政的計畫如上面所述那都是跟我們前面講的是有連結在一起的我們在明年度的預算總共是161億那其實包含了單位預算跟基金的預算等等但是看起來數字減少但是我們大概有10億左右是屬於的前瞻基礎建設的計畫最後一起的計畫所以總共大概是170億 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2696.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2699.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2725.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2746.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
在後年的之後政院還有各界可以給我們更多的支持我希望環境部如果要讓台灣環境更好適當的經費的增加人力增加是必須的我是希望朝一個能夠突破百億的目標而前進所以目前的這個分配的預算如大家所示其中裡面是環管署我們的比例大概在33%最多那我們幾個大的計畫跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2748.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2759.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
包括了這個我們的國家化學任性永續計畫這個總共有11億6千將近7千萬左右主要是掌握化學的物質的這個相關的運作還有應變體系然後第二個呢是這個美質環境推動計畫包含了公測 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2763.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2788.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後這個環境衛生或災後的復原總共有4億8千多萬然後另外一個是綠色設計這就跟經營循環有關係這個是配合淨零轉型的計畫總共有6800萬那附屬基金的預算我們有環保基金目前的明年編列的預算是92億6千多萬基金的用途總共有83億然後餘處大概是8億6千多萬那目前的各基金分配的來源分配到 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2788.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2813.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
公務及基金預算包括空污基金、資源回收基金、土壤及地下水資金、水基金等等其中空污基金是比較多的有些基金的量比去年少最主要是因為我們的空氣品質有改善那個是隨著空污的排放量有關係的其實是有改善這個基金是最好越收越好這代表我們空氣是越來越乾淨目前它的用途的比例總共是83萬如下所示 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2813.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2832.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那我們空污的基金呢基金最大的來源呢是還是屬於在移動員的管制包含了這個所謂的轉大客車的一個補助等等還有地方政府執行污染防治的工作其實地方已經有大概固定污染源拿了6成我們額外再會給補助給地方所以地方其實在空污基金的部分比補助蠻多的吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2833.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2833.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
゚≡基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2852.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2872.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
゚✧ |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2872.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2872.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2896.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2921.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
依照這個原來的用途來做編列那最後我們有4個財團法人一個是資源研究發展基金會他的收入大概是7600萬然後環發會總共有1億1000多萬然後環境權保障基金會現在還有大概2000多萬然後大科砍比較小一點點這個是由桃園市政府所支持的總共100多萬所以以上是我的預算還有我們的業務報告感謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2924.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2953.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝,謝謝彭部長那有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2957.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2958.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
有請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2963.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2986.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
部長本來10月31號要有安排這個近零轉型對於勞動市場的影響但因為颱風架的關係所以這個就錯過了但我覺得題目非常重要所以我今天還是就這個部分來就教這個部長那針對勞動部10月22號他提出了這個近零轉型勞動市場研究報告那社會上有一些討論那勞動部有點出說近零排放政策會導致 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2988.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3017.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
以萬人算以萬人來計算的這個工作失掉工作機會失業了部長您當時剛開始的反應是說推估的跟現實狀況可能有一些不同我想請問您現在的想法還是一樣嗎包委這個其實他是一個學者的探討啦他有一些模型那他都算是負面的但是事實上我們也問過電子業他並沒有影響那麼的大然後那但是呢我們增加的工作機會更多他沒有算到增加的所以我們他等於是尊重學者的研究啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3018.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3033.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝部長因為當時您是說不相關我再跟你確認一次那我再請教部長環境部計畫未來跟勞動部跟經濟部來搭建那個進行職場轉型的一個跨部會平台那這個具體內容都已經設定了嗎內容或綱要都設定了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3034.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3059.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
報告委員我們已經這三個部會已經有跨平台的這個討論了然後我們大概在12月中會把一個綠領人才的報告我們會向社會大眾報告以後未來就三個部會一起來推動做這個事情期待但是我還是想想問一下除了勞動部那個環境部或是經濟部當然還有國發等他們這個部分是不是做過調查瞭解剛剛您說的衝擊那是學者的報告但是真正的衝擊對象你們有過研究嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3060.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3060.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
bicyn 齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3074.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3094.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
內別或衝擊已經有初步的資料嗎?我們其實在那個金額、碳費那時候在準備算的時候都有衝擊評估但是因為我們碳費是後年才會認得到錢所以明年還不會馬上影響到但是也跟委員報告其實氣候轉型全世界都在轉所以我們也關注到說有一些弱勢的產業他恐怕因為碳排比較高所以我們要有一個針對弱勢的產業勞工還有產業要有一些輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3098.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3100.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
»:對於這個氣候變遷所衍生的有一些社會不公平那引發不少學者討論請問部長環境部針對協助勞動市場調查未來將依法規劃運用碳費收入已經有具體內容了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3115.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3115.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
請問你預估的綠領值缺有多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3142.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3167.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
從2017年的話大概只有四五千人現在已經到兩萬兩千三百個人那麼我還是要問國家政策可不可以你看從這個資料的報告國家政策能夠支持將近五分之一的失業勞工這是來自台灣企業行動的網路當然您認為有五分之一的會面臨失業然後怎麼樣讓他們獲得完善的就業保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3168.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3185.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個其實報告委員那個綠領的這個收入會比傳統的工作來的高我們最近新統計的結果轉型所以像英國他們這個把化石燃料的大概有20個勞工然後轉到新的這個再生能源的方向在走 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3186.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3207.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
部長那我們來繼續追蹤啦。但是接下來我跟部長討論一個比較嚴肅的事情。民進黨前中指有郭在清在台南雪甲等地不罰掩埋這個爐茶案。郭在清在2010年到2015年之間在台南雪甲等地用低價購買土地。占用國有地非法掩埋數十萬公噸的失業費器物爐茶。那不罰所得高達21.6億元。請問部長你能接受這個做法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3213.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3233.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我是不能接受啦但是委員這個案例是他已經新建了如果我們把它全部挖掉的話我們還在討論這件事情照片這個照片上面就上週五我辦公室去辦理現刊那邀請環境部跟台南市環保局去查看清楚狀況那有走動的那一邊就是屬於這個目前是一家叫做全城新業公司的廠房啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3234.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3235.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3258.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3281.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
部長您可以稍微看一下它的那個積水呈現不尋常的顏色當地里長甚至北上來澄清過檢舉國有土地部分掩埋的爐灑它根本沒有清除乾淨因為土地零零的關係所以挖土機沒有辦法順利進入去挖掘所以你很難查看國有地底下的爐灑情形但是它上面那片積水你能檢驗的是它的具有強鹼性酸鹼值是11請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3286.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3311.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有你的專業能力來說明為何積水會有這麼高度的搶檢性,pH值11啊。就代表說他的這個土壤是有問題的。有問題嘛,有問題嘛。那部長,環境部同仁當年在場說導致積水呈現搶檢性很多可能性,但其中一個可能性還是不能排除啊,就是隔壁全城新業這個廠房底下廬殺沒有移除造成的。那我要請問部長就是說,那位在全城新業廠房下的廬殺, |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3312.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3325.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那環境部要怎麼處理?就放在台南市環保局繼續擺爛嗎?就放著嗎?這個其實他因為這個已經蓋起來了而且這個是民間的企業那我們也不能叫他拆掉我很少說這麼重的話大家來公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3328.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3354.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
你看臺南市環保局上週五會刊後的新聞稿臺南市環保局意思說因為全城新建是合法新建的廠房是善意第三人所以不能隨便拆會造成對方損失3億元還說基於信賴保護原則跟比例原則要用善意的第三人損害最小方式去處理那當天會刊現場環境部出席人也這麼說啊部長跟您說的話一樣啊我想請部長那我剛剛聽了寫的你也認同這個說法啊那我是要講齁我必須這樣講齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3357.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3381.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那我當然懂什麼叫信賴保護原則我也懂比例原則啊但是你這樣的解釋等於告訴全台灣違法的業者你只要去山上或鄉下去買一塊很便宜的土地然後把事業費幾乎非法掩埋了然後再把土地賣給第三人然後再第三人趕快去蓋建築或趕快蓋廠房只要環保機關沒有辦法認定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3382.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3384.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3404.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3414.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
原來的這個不法掩埋的爐廠部長還是你這句話嗎因為有善意的第三者把他蓋了廠房我們不管了我們就不管了嗎是這樣嗎數十萬公噸欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3416.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3416.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
部長郭財軍會不知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3446.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3456.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你現在這個做法你這種包庇包庇等於交全大家全國怎麼樣去做違法是還可以獲利欸獲得幾十億的這個獲利欸你等於告訴大家怎麼來違法可以賺錢欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3458.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3461.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
關於環境部部長列席報告案二、邀請環境部部長列席報告案三、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3476.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3502.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
如果有違反什麼什麼現在就當地里長他們也許都活在生活在那裡啊他來告訴我們他也當時當時在看的時候明明沒有清除乾淨他們看得清清楚楚啊現在怎麼辦怎麼處理就放任不管嗎對不會他這個委員關心的後續會不會有違法的事情因為現在不是後續他已經違法中了他那個現在的爐茶已經不能用在這一些地區了所以後續不會有這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3503.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3513.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
市長這意思就是說那塊地那塊地就是因為這樣是不是就投降擺爛了啊好我們就讓雪甲的居民聽聽看嘛大家聽聽看不然怎麼辦你要不要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3514.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3533.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好委員這個我再瞭解一下好不好因為其實第一個是這有法律的問題因為它已經蓋上來了然後我們現在是採取這種監測國家沒有說好國家去國賠嘛那你該做的事還讓居民安心啊在家地就活得安心啊啊明明它這個案子就發啦它就是已經被揭露啦這個不法復利不法掩埋也都是事實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3535.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3536.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
謝謝陳昭斯委員接下來請林月琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3572.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3573.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
蔡林怡議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3589.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3607.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那今天事實上是你們環境部的業務報告跟114年的預算的詢答那大概就三件事來跟你做討論就碳費的目標跟碳費要怎麼分配跟我們目前觀察到的綠領人才反正上次事實上是要質詢這可是因為颱風而延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3614.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3638.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
部長針對於那目前就是大概你的整個的就是在2026年的話就要開始收碳費那2024年就有地方政府現在我們的盧市長就已經出來喊說八成要留在留在地方那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3640.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3651.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
針對媒體報導您也提到說整個的碳費使用跟分配要修所謂的溫室氣體的管理基金收支保管跟運用辦法這年底會完成嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3653.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3671.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
對,現在正在預公告嘛。來,梁組長。跟委員報告,就是我們那個溫管基金的收支保管運用辦法依照預算法是要由行政院訂定。那我們現在已經完成預告的這個程序,目前報請行政院在審查當中。 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3672.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3694.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那你這整個因為我們這是沒有看到你的預算裡面看針對碳費怎麼運用或用什麼方法進行研究所以部長署長那整個的你的碳費規劃的預計會用在哪些方面?報告委員其實因為碳費是後年才會有所以我們不會在明年的預算上面那有沒有要去做研究說那你怎麼規劃? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3695.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3715.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
等於是說這個管理辦法當行政院核定我們現在在預公告然後也行政院在審核當中那通過了之後因為這個跟我們過去是不一樣因為過去最早要訂這個碳費的時候其實那時候的試想其實是可能會到一千億所以基本上是拉得很大啊現在呢其實是規模比較小 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3715.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3731.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以其實裡面的組成的成員還有特性可能會不大一樣所以我們在修正當中我們預計呢如果按照這個速度的話應該是希望最快是年底這個這個法案可以我們的這個執法可以通過那通過之後我們就開始聘任這個委員那就有一個委員會可以來討論這個事情好 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3735.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3753.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
呃,剛剛我想前面呃,陳昌志委員也在問,齁,這是上次我們要齁,質詢的那個議題喔,就是說,呃,如果看勞動部,齁,他們的那個職安衛生研究所的報告裡邊,呃,淨零轉型呢,首當其中的就是一個是電子組件業的,還有金屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3754.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3774.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
事業及機械設備業甚至零售業都會面對到就業的機會減少那整個層面非常的大光明年就電子零組件業大概就1.7萬人失業這是勞動部這邊得出來資料那這背後事實上是一萬多個家庭受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3776.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3779.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3805.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3812.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
現階段整個人力專業需求不明確以至於目前存在很多種課程價格差異很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3816.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3842.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就職轉職的證照需求不明確甚至學校的課程大學的養成到底可不可以銜接你職場所以使得我們的要轉職的或就職的勞工朋友們社會新鮮人常常都會出錯不前不知道我要怎麼做雖然這些業務有的像學校課程應該是教育部有的跟經濟部有關係可是談到淨零減碳還是以環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3842.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3854.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
最為專業,所以關於我們的未來人才的培育我相信你們當然沒有辦法置身事外我們就來看我們現在碰到的問題這都是我們辦公室因為有人在後台 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3856.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3876.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那針對你們現在目前如果環境部不出來處理的話就首先我們以ISO的14064-1的那個證照為例這是一張有關溫室氣體的盤查內部查證人員那我請我們的同仁去看整個去比對之後發現同樣一套課程有人開價5250元一堂課可是也有高達33500元 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3883.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3909 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
僵差非常的大那到底對有志要踏入這個行業的人就要問喔我是否需要證明我有綠領專業的證照那證照之後我要去哪裡考取還有呢我要上課還是接受什麼樣訓練甚至證照考取跟我的薪資有沒有真相關以上這些問題呢不管在PTT或者是低卡的求職版面都有不少年輕人在詢問而且目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3910.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3913.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告業務． |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3931.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3951.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
到底要用什麼證照所以打開104的人力行我們搜尋永續管理師這個職缺分別就兩間我們的科技公司以及一間大型的旅行社都在徵才可是的確目前我們的綠領人才能依照媒體報導的各行各業都在努力找人 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3951.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3969.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
゚≥≥ |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3969.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3989.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
到底要轉職求職要不要考證照還有要不要受訓那想要那個人想要進入那個綠領行業的夥伴真的是一頭霧水所以以上這些案例環境部是不是可以跟我們民眾們解釋就是說來跟我們說明說到底綠領人才要不要考證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3991.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4012.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好,謝謝委員,委員果然是把這個問題都把它點出來了,那也跟委員報告我們其實環境部在過去這幾個月我們很努力的把各個跨部會去做整合,發現了委員你說的就是這個問題,還包含民間的這個亂象,所以我們現在呢,透過國環院,透過來整合大家,所以我們大概在12月中會有一個完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4013.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4029.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
委員你說的都是問題那我們已經把它彙整起來了到時候也希望委員一起來參加我們的形式那個報告那個報告其實就指出了例如說證照需要什麼我們政府要扮演什麼樣的角色所以我們大概在12月中會正式推出來一個新的政策總會拿到這些報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4032.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4057.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
對對對就是說像這個證照的確有些是政府有在推的但是很多民間他花了很多錢甚至還有30萬的詐騙的都有所以我們現在呢過去這個是很難去處理的但是我們現在經過這幾個月我們會推出來一套政策會讓大家知道說這是綠領讓環境部會來承擔然後跨部會來進行合作我希望環境部真的要扛起來否則的話過去我們自己在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4058.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4082.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
議員長也是每一次政府沒有很明確公告就不斷不斷上課三年上一套課三年他每一次都要交兩三萬塊你真的是讓我們的民間老民傷財可能要去考慮最後在2026年呢真的碳費起徵可不我也要很擔心的是會不會有不法企業繳交我們的假報告因為過去我在擔任我在民間 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4083.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4109.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
團體的時候擔任我們的遊戲場審議會的委員的時候那對於誰可以審議甚至簽證那資格怎麼去認定是有一套規定的因為為什麼要避免假報告橫行假報告一旦橫行的話不合格的遊戲場被簽署合格的話最後受害的是孩子所以一樣的從環境部這邊我們當然有就期待所以請環境部能夠先說明未來2026年徵收碳費 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4112.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4134.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
從計算、碳排、繳交報告政府怎麼審報告最後核定費率的流程大致會怎麼去進行這過程是不是都要有人員需要有相關證照來驗證或透過上課時數來認證因為目前像遊戲場他是有要拿到合格證明書的人他才有辦法去做這樣的一個簽證說這個遊戲場是合格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4137.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4165.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那所以目前我們的綠領人才的課程呢又滿天飛環境部目前我們還是希望你在課程跟費用都要有一定的標準如果我們也是期待12月中旬可以拿到你的報告最後期待因為我覺得這114年的預算希望有幾件事情你要務必注意的就是說第一個預算已經是編列研究費用那就應該盡數依照我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4166.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4179.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
氣候變遷因應法第10條的規定競速訂出我國溫室氣體的減量目標。第二個事實上碳費徵收的SOP已經過程中需要認證的以及避免繳交假報告請環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4182.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4182.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4202.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4229.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
到底未來徵造的必要性還有課程內容跟施肢培育避免求職的人或轉職的夥伴花了很多時間金錢就發現沒有用以上這三點請環境部要注意到好謝謝委員的意見委員果然是把這個問題都點出來我們也的確正在進行當中我們會依照委員的這個指教我把它納進來到我們這個12月中的報告好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝林月琴委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4240.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4246.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
謝謝主席謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席那我也要請環境部部長請彭部長部長早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4253.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4279.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
部長因為我們現在是要討論這個明年度的預算嘛所以我想請教一下彭部長你知道環境部明年開始會開始執行一項專案大概是5年的專案叫做建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫總共經費大概97億元您知道這個計畫嗎知道可是今天的業務報告隻字未提耶這麼大的一個金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4280.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4287.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4288.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4310.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4312.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4325.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
議員報告這是一個5年計畫總共有大概157億跨了這個我們的包括內政部、國防部、衛福部、經濟部等那屬於我們本部預算有97億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4328.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4344.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分明定義。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是任何定計畫。 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4345.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4369.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4370.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4394.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4395.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4418.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4419.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4434.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4435.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4449.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
嗯,其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個,講這個這個97...好,沒關係,我們等一下,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下齁。你說這件事情很重要,好。今天有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4450.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4462.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4478.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4488.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4490.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4515.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
跟輪報告其實應該不會是那麼多,因為我們是有三個...我有附頁數給你,你可以回去翻一下這本。你就是有買這麼多?對,我們的那個無人機的部分。你看一下你的無人機上面,你還分五筆喔,不只是無人機分五筆。上面還有一個救災機器人,一個機器人是一千多萬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4517.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4519.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
然後你買了7句、5句、5句 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4522.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4551.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4552.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4554.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以編列這樣子的預算嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4554.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4569.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
113年前還是有,無人機這部分也都是有,然後我們也有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入。那麼在未來5年裡面,我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資。 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4570.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4584.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那國際上大概是類似機器權這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4588.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4614.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4616.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4641.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
跟你們報告齁,其實我們在跟行政院提報計畫的時候呢那麼對於工作事項裡面行政院也請我們檢討屬於我們自己經費部分的負擔那麼在這三項基金裡面像土屋基金的部分我們會在補助地方政府還有我們的流布計畫就是環境流布計畫河川、吳迪尼這邊我們會來做然後在這個教育宣導的部分我們會用環境教育部長你回答好了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4643.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4671.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4673.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4674.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4689.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4706.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始,你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府。雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府,也希望你可以告訴我。請問我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4708.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4713.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4735.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4740.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4741.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4768.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
跟委員報告我剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提那麼內政部消防署有41億這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的有些他購買有些是補助地方購買可是有環境部出錢寫計畫是計畫我們會診之後報院然後分項核定之後分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面那剛剛九十幾億那這是我們環境部主管沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4769.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4786.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎?這部分的話是消防署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是? |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4787.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4799.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
゚≥≥ |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4799.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4803.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4828.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4830.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4832.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4857.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4858.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4886.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全者就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4887.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4915.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4916.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4944.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4946.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4972.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市購置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4973.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5000.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
部長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請王育明委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5011.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5013.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5027.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5044.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。 這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。 報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。 這是你力行性的業務。 我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。 那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5046.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5069.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5069.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5079.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5097.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5120.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這一件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5120.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5148.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會再監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5149.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5150.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5178.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5200.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5201.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5222.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5223.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5224.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
部長你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5224.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5235.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
包委員這個是我們環境部大氣師是主動的去偵查出來的。自己監測出來的嗎?還是是有吹哨者舉發的? |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5235.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5239.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個當然有吹哨者但是我們也主動看到這個證據。 因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5241.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5265.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5267.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5267.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
»: 報告也我們部內其實已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5275.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5299.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5300.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5328.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?要不要請我們大氣師來講?來。我想跟委員報告目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5330.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5348.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個我想這個就一個案子到今年目前為止這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5349.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5365.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5368.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5368.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
bicyclap |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5399.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5419.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正伴吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5420.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5438.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
你這部分才應該花更多錢,你剛剛空屋基金拿去給國防部用,假裝一些名目就是支出,這個都不是正辦。你自己的本業,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上,好不好?這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔, |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5441.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5452.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部結果你們現在竟然環評細則你們自己要自費武功啊說哎呀這個光電號最好是地方自己去審就好那幹嘛把你們升格幹嘛升格這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5462.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5489.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5491.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5495.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
bicy 部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5495.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5510.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
bicy 因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求就是說希望我們再對這個...立法院的需求立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法那也提醒我們要把光電放進來所以我們光電呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5510.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5536.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
是要你加演不是放鬆啊?加演加演新增的因為過去光電是沒有的那你怎麼會反而是要讓地方政府自己來審呢?委員是15到30MW他是屬於可以地方那30以上是中央但是我其實今天也正式做一個宣布這些還是由我們全部來處理好部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5536.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5560.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5563.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5590.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5591.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5591.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
﹝廣告﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5615.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5638.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候台中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在台中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5643.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5668.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5669.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5692.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5693.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5714.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5717.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5733.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5734.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5749.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5761.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5773.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。接下來請邱政軍委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我們一樣有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5790.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5814.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
部長好我想請問一下我們114年度環境部主管預算編列了77.18億比今年還少了這個0.79億元那包括我們氣候署少了5349萬環管署也減少一成多大概是3.3億循環署也減少了四分之一大概是3.5億 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5816.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5835.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
部本部增加了3.3億、化學署增加了4億。中央政府總預算年年都在增加,已經突破了三兆。各部會都在增加,只有環境部不增反減,是所有部會倒數的前兩名。你可以接受嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5839.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5866.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
包括委員因為我第一次當公務人員那我來上任之後其實也很想增加預算但是我後來才知道說這個預算的編定其實在工建計畫或是科技計畫都要提早半年就要去做決定所以你是說明年就會增加就對了我現在一直督促我們的所有的私屬的同仁我們都要提新的計畫那我們的確希望在後年可以大幅度的增加那當然也需要委員給我們支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5867.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5896.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好,我希望你要為你的那個業務啊,該做的事情不能省略的還是要繼續加油啦。對,因為委員你說的都是我心裡面的話。我就在問齁,就是說明年的預算三減,你認為影響最大的業務是什麼?目前因為我們這個經費雖然少,主要是那個計畫跟計畫它有一個時間性。剛好有些計畫這時候變少了,到期了。那有些計畫又輕增加了。所以這個數字齁,基本上我們對我們業務不會有直接的影響。但是我還是期待有增加的機會啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5897.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5900.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那個垃圾處理你覺得你可以先減少了3.3億 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5904.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5928.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個對我們因為這個垃圾的處理我們預計有12億在未來大概兩年內可以完成所以不會排擠到我們現在垃圾處理的你後面就是你之前的預算還有就對了還沒有還有還有就是這個是一個長期的包含了垃圾的處理有一個長期的預算那你覺得你你前陣子啊信誓旦旦說這個兩年內要把53座的垃圾餐消失啊對結果我就看到最近的預算少了7億你說這個預算不會影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5931.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5946.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我請我們署長來回答好不好?謝謝委員那個垃圾部分我們是不同的科目在執行那這個12億在未來3年之內執行上面要減少這53座不會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5947.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5964.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那我們這個預算有減少的大概是在我們多元垃圾處理計畫跟我們的文化廠那個部分目前的文化廠在整改的數目有稍微減少一點點我們依照實際的年度需求去編列你說那個垃圾山你們少了5座嗎?你們是怎麼處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5968.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5989.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我說你那5座是怎麼消失的?當然這5座就是比較小的,但是全部都是垃圾嗎?都可以焚化都可以燒就對了。但是跟委員特別報告不是消失而是依照標準的掩埋操作把它操作完成,不影響環境。所以那些打包的是已經不能進焚化爐的? |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5992.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6003.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是以後還是可以那現在怎麼處理啊現在就是打包好符合這個那只是買起來看不到不是嗎先放在那裡先放在標準的掩埋場裡面不影響環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6006.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6009.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6022.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6040.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
兩年就是說目前到後年的年底要把它完成就把這53座全部處理掉53座就可以從中拿去燒就對了那原本處理掉的勒你現在的現在的這個五座山你不是只是暫時掩埋嗎還要挖起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6040.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6068.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
沒有,我們是先不要露天裸露,不要露天裸露,但是我們先有的是把它蓋起來,或更好的篩分的處理,目前是先這樣做,那這個是兩年內要完成的事情,不要露天裸露。好啦,我希望我們不要做好幾段的工作啦,能夠一次解決就最好,要不然的話我看幾年之內我們的垃圾山又會跑出來,對不對,台灣很小欸,對不對,台灣不大,台灣哪有那麼多地方可以買垃圾。 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6071.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6080.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
另外我再想環管署針對空屋、水屋還有廢棄物查案明年只編了62萬的業務費、233萬的差旅費預計查空屋要520件、水屋要290件、噪音15件、廢棄物處理950件、毒性化學物質7件 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6096.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6112.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那噪音稽查件數比今年少的40%那反而地方噪音稽查去年已經接近了11萬件那請問部長這麼少的預算要怎麼樣有效去控制這個東西你中央跟地方要怎麼分工來請我們署長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6115.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6140.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
公務委員報告其實中央跟地方的分工他是依照原則上這些空水費除了環評監督是由中央來做主導以外那地方如果發生重大案件或技術設備不足的部分那我們才會前往去支援所以你是丟給地方就對了丟給地方去做全責上就是地方在做全責上依照那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6141.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6159.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所有的環保法規在地方就是地方政府沒有錯所以他的責任是在地方就對了是是是那你們要做好監督的角色啊好不好不然我看你這個這個就算是監督臺灣也你這個錢這個錢我真的不曉得你們要怎麼做是對不對這個這個經費有點少啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6162.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6189.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主要是我們人力的部門我怕你做不到事啊你沒有辦法完成預期的一個效果謝謝委員請書長你這邊再加油啦另外循環署的預算本來就不夠明年再減少3.5億剩下11億元那地方受到很大的影響部長你知不知道我們苗栗後龍的資源回收處理廠因為中央政策改變而被迫關廠那好不容易找到用地那需要1.6億 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6190.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6210.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那循環署卻只能補助這個2500萬這是今年才增加的一個限制還要必須要求他們跨區能夠處理那其他公管頭份的資源回收場的計畫到目前都還沒有下文我不曉得你這個你要怎麼樣來推動呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6211.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6236.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好,我們先請徐萬樹。我想因為在回收場部分我們是盡量說可以讓他可以這個明朗,如果說真的是需要因為那個後龍那個是需要有一些土地水路保持齁,那所以希望能夠有地方政府這邊也可以來支持一下。地方你苗栗苗栗就沒有錢,他的那個財政就非常困難哪有辦法去協助欸。你們一億多的東西你們給我兩千,兩千多萬我們怎麼做? |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6240.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6251.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
對不對?像這個東西你們既然要補助,既然要做,就做給他徹底。你丟在那邊我們到底是要整地還是幹嘛用呢?到時候還是不能用啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6252.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6274.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我希望說我們一個政策出來既然要做就把它做好嘛,你丟這個東西地方根本沒辦法處理的啊。好,包委員其實這個我會可能因為我們現在在爭取後年的預算啦,希望可以再更多一點點。因為這個預算的這個申請要有一個時間的落差。好啦,請部長再多幫忙啦齁。沒問題。那最後齁,我想請問喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6275.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6293.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
根據紐約時報的報導川普已經籌備行政命令將宣布退出巴黎協定氣候協定並擴大石化專炭和採礦及撤銷甲烷的排放費那部長你認為這個大哥如果退出氣候協定陳真 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6294.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6323.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們台灣小弟要不要隨時跟上?我們正在密切注意所以我們會跟上嗎?基本上我們台灣很多的出口還是要到歐洲、美國而且我們是一個社會的一份子那美國可能也是一個短暫的所以我們正在密切觀察因為我看到這個如果他這個通過他確定了可能會帶動其他國家在跟進據我所知其實很多國家都一直在觀望那我們台灣是跑得比較快的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6323.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6349.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
tatto比較快當然因為其他國家可能因為經濟的原因他不敢太衝太快那臺灣的話我也希望部長你能夠多為我們企業來考量好這個部分呢當然我們我們如果當然要配合全世界的一個腳步也不要自己衝得太快好不好好希望也部長也能考慮一下臺灣這個整個的整理的經濟面好不要被這個影響的好沒問題我們正在研究謝謝委員建議謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6353.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6361.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
謝謝邱政軍委員。那等一下在蘇清泉委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。接下來請廖偉祥委員發言。謝謝主席。有請彭部長。請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6375.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6400.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
六位好部長你好部長那個我想要請教一下政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南侃溪等7條河流喔等一下我的簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6402.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6427.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6429.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6452.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是氨氮的一個消減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6453.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6469.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6469.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6485.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。 那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6491.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6513.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
bicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6514.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6541.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6542.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6557.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6564.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6577.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6578.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6579.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6598.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6612.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6614.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6634.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我們是以國家環境保護計畫119年我們要把所有的嚴重污染的策戰全部拖延那目前我們覺得這個目標會在中南部的河川因為有一些畜牧業的污染相較比較嚴重還有一些生活污水沒有到達下水道的管線沒有到達 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6635.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6660.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以那個嚴重污染策戰的一個削減呢我們接下來的一個目標會著重在中南部河川的一個削減好我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那4年那20多億今天我們是預算會期你那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6663.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6689.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道?另外這個部長除了安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的川廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6690.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6715.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以會讓我們的臺灣許多海岸不滿垃圾情都情不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6716.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6735.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6742.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6757.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6759.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6786.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6787.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6812.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6813.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6836.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6838.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6846.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高? |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6847.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6873.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嗎想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起檢索責任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6874.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6893.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48% |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6895.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6907.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6907.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6909.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6925.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6947.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
剛我是在救教那個數據的部分那我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到明顯是達不到那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛對 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6947.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6962.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6963.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6988.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6988.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7008.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那另外一個我就是想提那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助比如說降低有機再生質的這個質料及質塑料的生產成本因為他的這個生產成本就相對比較高嘛這部分是有可能的嗎還是有機再生生質塑料 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7009.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7037.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7038.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7053.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7054.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7070.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好,這個委員我們在努力,的確我們,我的確也是去看了這些,但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來。那如果部長有這方面的,到時候有這方面的進一步的研究,或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本席辦公室參考。好,沒問題,沒問題。好,謝謝部長。謝謝,謝謝。謝謝廖偉祥委員。接下來請盧先英委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7085.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7113.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
就是有請部長。請彭部長。欸,陸委員早。彭部長早。通常我們在看環境的問題的話,我們先看都會區的,然後我們再想一下原鄉的一個問題。我們先看都會區平均性為例的話,大概這個一個月之內可以告發27個業者關於農畜牧產業的廢棄的一些污染物,污染水源。 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7113.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7132.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那我看了一下那大概財閥大概就是10萬塊如果說按照空氣污染的這個告發是10萬塊如果是因為牧場的流水色不佳可以才把6000到60萬元那我是想說常常發生這樣的事情是不是因為他的罰款太低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7133.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7137.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
一個月內告發27個月業者,你先用這個邏輯來想,然後我們再想原住民的地區。 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7149.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7166.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我是來自屏東縣馬家鄉。馬家鄉有一個部落叫做法灣村。他原本的部落是我們排灣村的根源地,也就是我們的發祥地。他現在在民國40幾年半到這個地方以後,他們是先來的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7167.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7170.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
bicyclist of the United States of America |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7195.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7198.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告業務． |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7226.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7229.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7253.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7270.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
他們是我們排灣組的發祥第一個部落在那裡結果如果我要去那邊我都要考慮說我等一下去那邊是不是又要跟蒼蠅在一起又要跟那些異位在一起請問對他們來講是非常的可憐所以請你能夠針對這個普通公司能夠做一個研究可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7270.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7295.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好可以委員其實也怪我看了很多個類似這樣的案例已經有一些新的做法做那普風呢是台灣很大型的企業那我有找機會我也去看一下通常我們都很羨慕人家說日本的什麼養雞場什麼養豬場都沒有意味然後還可以聽音樂我們不想這麼天堂的事情那我們先解決部落的問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7295.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7296.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
第二就是我們關山那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7323.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7346.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
不是,就是我有去參加關山的那個戰備跑道不過去關心我們台東市那個噪音的管制那個補助的一個方法他現在國防部的噪音補助是根據他們國防部的一個規定可是這麼多年來沒有改變過我希望環境部能夠針對台東市的這個噪音能夠做一個研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7346.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7374.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為現在我們如果是增加10分貝的話是10倍20分貝的話是100倍30分貝的話是1000倍這樣的方式來去研究每一個里那個按照那個軍用機場叫自航基地那個每5公里或是每1公里那個分貝數去研究一下他們現在在那邊開民宿業者沒有人要去住啊因為噪音太大如果去那邊睡覺根本沒有辦法睡覺所以我是希望他們這個噪音補償能夠用民航的規定現在是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7375.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7404.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
但是這個噪音管制辦法是希望有中央主管機關會同國防部定制。現在完全是國防部一個人在弄,沒有辦法取得民眾的諒解。所以請環境部跟國防部一起來研究好不好?因為這個是國防部主管,那我會跟我們同仁來討論一下如何去研議解決這個事情。我知道你們明年有訂那個噪音的那個經費看一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7405.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7406.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7421.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7450.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
五百公尺一公里兩公里的話它的分貝是多少而做這樣的補償可以嗎OK 報告委員這個是這個計畫是針對那個騎重機那個autobike去家常集合的啦不是這個機場的噪音我知道因為就一般的民眾來講他們沒有這樣的設備去檢測他到底噪音對他的生活的影響嘛那是不是台東那邊也可以做一個這樣的一個研究讓他們做補償有一個依據我們請問我們大氣石市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7450.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7465.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
跟那個委員報告目前那個軍用航空機場的噪音國防部這邊每一個就是機場每一個每一季會把這個噪音監測結果報到環保局這邊來然後如果說整個民眾的疑慮是說它是用24小時當然是24小時的話是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7469.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7483.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為照樣量測有個規定,如果說委員這邊有建議的話,那我們可以找黃碧雲局我們再測一次。我們測一次是10天。10天坐下來,然後去評估說他的照樣等級到哪裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7484.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7502.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
bicyncy是不是戰機起降比較頻繁?那個噪音的問題是不是比較嚴重?剛剛這個居民說他們是願意配合國家的政策不過他們這10年來只補助一台冷氣3萬塊然後清密窗而已其他什麼都沒有而且是一視同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7503.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7526.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
沒有因為地域的關係而做更改所以我們希望有一個等級嘛有一個級距可以嗎我們兩個一個良策部分我們再安排一下那公務部那部分我們因為補助是他們那邊主導的最後也是募領的部分也就是關山鎮月梅堆肥廠他們在11月6號民眾有到那邊無論是議員還有部門主任去那邊抗議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7527.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7528.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
bicyclone |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7557.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7585.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
學校距離不到500公尺那以後學校上課的話真的是要緊閉門窗還要開空調還要開空氣清淨機這些費用誰要來支付?其實因為關山鎮他們鎮長是非常積極是改善畜牧業養豬廢水的所以我們也要一起來了解一下這個部分要通盤檢討要對策可以嗎?如果它勢必要蓋的話你要一個因應的方案募領的方案可以嗎?我們這邊來研究一下謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7587.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7588.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
蘇慶泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7613.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7642.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
現在這個預算案開始了所以大家提出了問題五花八門那我今天來提小琉球先提小琉球因為我們上次有去小琉球那我們小琉球兩個港一個叫做白沙港是客運為主一個叫做大福港那大福港溫馨洗商業沙石就是貨運船都從那邊上來比較多好那我們看這個大福港 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7644.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7667.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個是大埔港的西側那現在有一些工程在施作應該不是環境部的吧不是不是啦看起來應該是大埔港國家公園管理處啦好下一張那結果這塊在囤土囤的要有斜坡比較好走 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7670.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7689.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個土方是台灣過去的還是在地的?這個要查一下,就是要去看源頭是在什麼地方?因為這個土方裡面保特瓶、垃圾、袋子、玻璃什麼都有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7691.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7703.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
阿各個背背的下面這張影片你看到那土把它推到那個削破塊這邊那整個削破塊就很髒那這個環境部有沒有辦法出手?處長請我們處長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7708.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7708.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
來下一張。 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7738.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7739.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這個是我們上次... |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7751.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7769.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們小琉球上次部長去也看到齁那個利息龜現在差不多有將近1000隻了全世界可能數一數二那利息龜能夠在那邊存活第一就是東西有人吃第二就是環境要真友善 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7770.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7784.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
來的律師櫃都不想走啦,普通一定有開嘛,大家都很大隻的,有個幾百公斤的那律師櫃到底能夠活多久,我也不知道啦,有人說可以活到200年 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7786.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7786.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7816.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7819.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那這部電力我都處理過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7820.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7847.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
報告委員,我很想處理,但是很像是農業部的權責啦。啊,你不要在那裡貼啦,不然要我衝衝的啦,要我負責嗎?卡卡的,阿婆沙灘沒用,那裡會出問題,生態會出問題。所以這個很重要。我們來跟農業部反映一下。這個當初會去搞這個東西,實在是很好玩。我們去交通部去也覺得,上次是市長去也覺得毀於所思啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7849.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7866.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那再來,所以那一篇要弄,那再來就我們講我們的空汙啦,因為時間有限喔,所以我要變快一點喔。那檳榔關,檳榔關的工廠是共用的六分之一,共用的六千、六百幾間,那所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7869.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7880.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
欸,寧願石化工業園區、新達火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠,差不多都未來啦,喔,PM5.5啊、PM10啊,我們的空汙啊、挫洋啊、幸福為力啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7881.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7882.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們市長來回答數字。 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7905.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7928.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
市長,你怎麼沒有作為呢?不是,跟委員報告,這個我們有很積極的作為喔。平東的那個,因為空庫費現在跟委員報告,現在就是因為像固定員收了以後有60%是地方自己收。也就是說你工廠多了,所以收的比較多。另外呢,第二個是那個移動員呢,是20%,那是照加油站的發油量去付,這是第二個來源。 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7929.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7943.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第三個呢,營建工地呢,地方全百分之百自己收。所以這樣算下來呢,屏東去年大概收了兩億一千多萬的那個空污費。這是他們自己收的。另外呢... 高雄市我們休30日。 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7945.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7974.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
沒有啦,7億都不到8億啦,才4倍啦,因為他們工廠多啊。 那你中央的空屋呢?那就是下一個重點,我們每一年補助呢,因為透過中央收的微薄的那部分的錢呢,我們來調配就是空屋費比較少的呢,像屏東,我們補助款歷年來都是第一名,明年也是第一名,有3000多萬的那個補助款,透過空屋基金在那邊給,所以只要他提得出來, |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7974.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7994.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
您有規模的公務會到底有多少啊?我們前幾年才破產啦。環境部的預算太少啦,77億還沒開呢。我也沒面子啦,所以我努力啦,我們跟我們同事都要勉勵啦,要破百億啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7998.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7998.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
當然啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7998.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7999.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那個太少了啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7999.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8001.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這怎麼玩啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8001.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8015.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那我們屏東這個PM2.5PM全部都飄到屏東來。整個剛剛盧憲業在講的齁,整個泰晤啦、萊姬啦,那幾個省都每一年有三分之二的時間都只報。 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8017.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8018.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案2案 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8037.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8059.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
還有大林也是。他們現在一直說要改善,中頂說他們要用最新的那個燒煤的是真的有效嗎?如果說他是用那個超超臨界的話是有效啦。換成天然氣會更好啦。換成天然氣更好。不過天然氣排放又多。他少很多,比燃煤大概只燃煤的大概剩下一半左右啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8061.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8086.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
空污災,多一點給屏東,好不好?這個我們會鼓勵,我努力一下。因為中央山脈的尾端就在那邊,一兩千公尺的山都擋住。我每天看那個中央山脈三角線那邊,灰茫茫的一片,以為是山藍之氣,結果那就是空氣污染。等到下雨、颱風、稍稍的,火落落的,待會就火淺氣淺氣。這個都很糟糕的事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8089.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8096.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好,那最後一個我再問你那個廁所的問題,廁所這個這一次感覺非常好,我們署長非常努力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8099.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8127.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我去賀爾新機在那個機場看到那個廁所是一間一間的都是進去有馬桶就是小便桶然後有坐的馬桶那馬桶還是那個那個那個可以沖水的免治馬桶那進去沒有婚男女便宿就是便宿一間一間啊早不早都敲錯敲錯所以也沒有什麼一比幾的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8129.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8145.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
二、尊重女士、男的、女的、中性的、人道的事、日日要站起來、要借眼、人道的事這很文明的啊,很現代化啊,我們他也不在推這個還在停留在說男的廁所一個小便斗,女的這邊要三間 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8147.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8150.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
三、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8167.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8187.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
你的看法怎麼樣?報告委員 這個就是性別友善廁所啦這個也是我們努力的方向目前比例的確還有一點低但是我們新的都鼓勵要做這些事情就做這樣就沒有溫暖你的廁所不過這個也要跟委員報告這個還是會遭遇到一些團體的阻力啦但是我覺得這個是國際的趨勢還是要往那方面走 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8189.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8215.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
因為真的我們現在都尊重兩性平等、三性平等都無所謂啦。但是你自己認為我今天要用坐著,我就坐著。今天我要站著,就站著。視態力啊。我覺得做醫生的角度,我覺得這個真的是非常文明,而且是非常有衛生的。所以這個,那廁所的比例,補助公共廁所啦,補助的我們的執行效力好像不好捏,署長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8218.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8236.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們在未來到118年我們還會再有46億8750萬要興建2500座新建或修建的廁所那這個我們在努力那之前前一段已經有新建補助4290座廁所這是大於我們的KPI |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8240.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8241.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8241.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8241.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8257.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8280.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那廁所做好像我們這次去看去屏東看這個東港啊這個都很棒但是呢廁所的維護是大問題我以前我也幫那個墾丁大街升起了一座那個時候就花500多萬那當然墾丁大街他們管理委員會接到的那些他們就請歐巴桑在那整理整理很重要啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8281.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8282.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8282.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8288.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
請他們維護,因為那個財是長長久久啊。所以你不是只拿去去的,就送給後面後續看要怎麼弄。我是覺得這個緩和是重要的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8305.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8331.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
其實第一個是說要養成尊重這個清潔人員的文化啦例如說上完之後要輕輕去謝謝你啦另外一個是要把這個工作把它這種尊榮感把它拉高一點點等於是說這件事情一定要去鼓勵不要讓大家都覺得說最基本的最低見的事情而是這是有榮譽感像日本的這個職人文化一樣這是我們要努力的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8333.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8341.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
預算搞多一點人家都兩三千億一兩千億七十七億笑死人了我會加油謝謝蘇清泉委員我們現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8358.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8385.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列� |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8393.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8399.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利及衛生環境部部長列席報告案二﹑一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8469.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8490.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8957.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8985.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
好,現在繼續開會。接下來請王振旭委員發言。謝謝主席。有請彭部長。請彭部長。還有水保司王司長。請王司長。部長好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8988.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9009.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
市長好部長先前想要跟你討論有關於水污染防治措施跟這個檢測申報管理辦法預告修正草案以後相關的內容我們知道這個部分其實影響蠻大的尤其是對醫療院所來講他們未來如何能夠根據這個環境保護尤其是水資源的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9009.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9011.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
bicycloproject.com |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9029.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9046.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不過也因為他影響層面很大所以就利用這個機會來跟部長做一些討論那其實今年的9月26號環境部做一個預告的修正針對這個管理辦法尤其是關於這個廢棄藥物跟一些全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9047.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9073.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
化學化學藥物對於環境的影響因為我們知道如果使用抗生素不當管理的話其實對於抗生素的抗藥性造成的影響是非常的大那如果是像全服化學藥物這一類的話對環境影響如果對於環境造成污染或者是有過量的話他對於癌症的這個產生也有蠻大的疑慮所以對民眾的影響其實都是蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9074.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9093.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那針對這一部分特別規定一定規模以上的醫院跟醫療機構都需要做相關的這個檢測申報未來可能會要每年都要做一些申報那這一部分其實很希望能夠有多更多的一些瞭解跟資訊那為了應驗這些其實在6月5號也召開了這個諮商的座談會 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9099.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9118.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
應該是王市長主持的嗎?那這個座談會裡面其實就衛福部也有派了官員去參加這個相關的座談會那當場衛福部其實是有提供一些意見來做參考包括說環境部進行更多這個醫院放流水的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9119.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9138.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
要有一個比較明確的這個施行日期的一個統一的部分因為希望在110年以後能夠來做相關的施行因為我們知道其實相關尤其是公立醫院如果他們要做這些改善的話他們必須要依照這個預算編列的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9139.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9164.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
在時程上可能有時候也需要確定的掌握他們這個程序的部分那第二點就是關於如果院內要進行這個加濾消毒作業等等的話也希望能夠針對於大型的醫院或醫學中心能夠辦理教育訓練跟輔導來提升這個藥品削減成效才能夠達到比較好的一些措施的這個管控結果那另外有關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9166.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9188.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
就是環境部要規劃相關的環境費用等的時候其實醫療成本也會相對是提升的尤其如果說要針對這些內容要做適當申報監控的話這個對於整體醫療的成本其實是會上升的所以希望能夠考量在這個對於提升以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9190.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9218.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
醫療成本的增加對整個社會的衝擊第四點就是他也希望能夠環境部在針對所謂會影響到醫院跟醫療機構的部分包括長照機構跟照護中心都有一個比較聚焦型的會議來做進行相關的處理不知道到目前為止就是針對這些意見部長或者是市長有沒有其他需要再說明的進度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9219.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9245.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
對,好,謝謝委員的這個建議,其實目前都是照委員的這個建議正在進行當中那例如說包含116年開始實施那我們也就照這樣方式進行那其實不管環境部也跟衛福部也都有對醫療院所的廢水處理有進行教育訓練那另外一個呢是社會的衝擊我們也知道因為驗一次其實也要花個9到10萬所以的確會造成這個醫院的一個成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9246.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9259.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
但是其實也有一些醫生認為那個就是醫院本來要做的所以這個有些正反的一個意見那另外一個的是目前其實我們到9月跟10月都包含了11月都會有一些延伸的法案這個細節的部分是不是請我們市長簡單的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9262.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9289.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
謝謝委員關心跟指教那這個部分我們包括調查的部分116年實施事實上我們有分兩階段有一些項目我們是118年才實施這部分會處理另外最後一個就是對於影響到的一個醫療院所基本上我們在下個禮拜四就會有這個草案的一個公聽演商相關的一個會議我們也會通知這個衛福部跟相關的一些醫院受影響的醫院我們也會一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9290.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9298.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
゚✧ |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9298.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9326.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以我確定一下11月21號這一個研商會議會是很大型的會議還是說針對於比較醫院跟醫療機構相關的比較聚焦型的這個會議跟委員報告我們這是公開的公聽研商會公聽會所以大家都可以參加所以我們除了實體會議之外我們也開放視訊就是可以連上視訊之後一起來聽聽各界的意見跟給我們建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9326.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9352.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
了解所以我意思就是說如果這是很大型的公廳會那可能不只是醫療相關的院所可是因為我們知道醫院的廢棄物或者是這個排放水有它比較特殊的層面所以是不是也可以請師長這邊針對於醫療機構在這個部分有一個屬於比較聚焦型的相關會議能夠讓他們在執行的時候更能夠掌握到這些重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9354.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9377.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好謝謝委員指教齁其實這個部分我們會遵照委員的指示例如說醫療院所或是相關的單位我們分門別類來處理因為這樣聚焦才可以得到更精準的意見好謝謝那我們也知道其實大家對於抗生素的使用都非常非常的擔心啦齁也希望能夠該用就應該用那如果可以做一個好的控制的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9378.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9396.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
最重要的是抗生素的抗藥性已經是全球要面對的問題那新型的抗生素要研發出來也相當的困難所以針對於這個抗生素的這些處理模式大家都會非常非常的需要去用更好的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9397.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9415.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
在修正草案裡面其實也提供了不同的新興要關注的項目包括某些的抗生素跟後面要去處理的抗生素這邊我們可以看到在第一項是要在115年1月1日就要開始試用另外是118年會試用其實醫院這邊也 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9420.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9445.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
相當的擔心那這一些部分列管項目是不是能夠透過設備跟技術來做有效的這些污水處理那如何協助院所來辦法來做施行來有機會來達標那最後就是他們也很希望了解這個列管項目是不是跟國際標準一致那這部分不知道目前部裡面或者是施裡面有沒有相關的一些處理措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9446.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9449.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
包委員 這個其實是草案 現在在研議當中 我們細節請市長來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9451.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9477.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
跟委員說明剛才提到的這三點基本上有關這個廢水中如果有排放這個抗生素的一個這個濃度如果過高我們基本上規定基本上是有一個疫警值那如果有疫警值的話就要採取作為包括這個汙水處理設備我們的調查發現汙水處理設備如果正常操作效能提升的話也是有很好的處理效力所以基本上我們會希望能夠輔導就是在處理技術上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9478.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9505.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
與設備上能不能夠妥善的處理達到處理的效能這是第一個如果處理效能沒有辦法達標的話進一步的改善的做法可以有一些評估的程序我們來協助看看怎麼樣跟衛福部做一些輔導的做法讓醫院的廢污水處理設備也能夠有一定的升級跟處理當然藥品的部分如果能夠妥善的去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9506.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9532.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為基本上我們也是一個預警從環境的角度最後的角度來預警說這個用料用量跟回收有沒有其他可以加強的地方也是要醫院自主去做相關的一些檢視跟管理是了解那其實我們也知道國際有很多的這些先進國家也都有類似的管控措施所以我相信我們如果能夠繼續努力的話應該就可以把這些內容做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9533.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9555.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
最後是有關於醫院S口形式節能減碳的進度的部分我在上次10月7號的時候也有跟部長討論過這個問題這一次在兩個禮拜前去嘉義大埔考察有關於太陽光電造成的這種環境的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9557.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9574.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
在現場跟業次長瞭解這部分針對於如何能夠節能檢探在醫療院所這部分那他也跟我做了一些說明那這個說明裡面就會包括說如何能夠深度的節能針對於尤其是大型醫院的部分那他 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9575.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9602.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
也讓我知道目前的進度即使是很值得大家共同關注那麼我也知道真的環境部做了很多很多的努力那這部分可不可以在年底之前也提供書面資料讓我這邊來做一些參考好謝謝報告委員因為這個是有三個部位金管會還有衛福部經濟部三個次長有一個平臺就特別來處理這個事情那我們現在平臺到最後討論完了結果年底之前再跟委員特別報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9602.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9609.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
好,那就麻煩部長。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝王振旭委員。接下來請楊瓊英委員發言。謝謝主席,請部長,請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9628.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9646.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
部長好,我們繼續來討論中華的議題。那我們知道目前為止政府跟我們地方的民眾跟我們台中市議會、台中市政府的意見還是有一些分歧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9648.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9658.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
當然我們必須要以站在民眾的健康為基準尤其站在你環境部維護環境的立場我想這一點你可以認同吧所以我們繼續討論因為在環評會的當中並沒有說明整個減煤 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9668.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9671.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9696.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9700.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
二、審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9713.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9723.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那尤其曾董事長也在現場也說了也就是說從1260萬公噸的燃煤量可以由2031年之後去遞減那也就是減煤多少300萬公噸那換句話說到2031年之後有可能達到900萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9737.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9761.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
但是當我們地方聽到這個訊息很緊張很緊張的意思是什麼現在我們每一年大概是1100那為什麼會在2031年竟然說的是1260萬公噸這個是公開的訊息所以本席要在這邊請教請教也就是在整個環評沒有將 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9763.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9765.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9784.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9803.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
如果以卓魁跟曾董事長所說那我們未來有可能會成為全世界最大的火力發電廠那這個會嚴重的影響到我們整個臺中人所以本席要請教你身為部長你要怎麼樣把關你要怎麼把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9804.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9830.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們台中人不能擁有低汙染嗎?我們不能擁有低汙染、低排碳的這個環境嗎?我們已經付出了那麼那麼的多。請教部長要怎麼應對?好,報告委員喔,其實因為那天環評的結論包含了減煤量都有把它提供出來那其實也跟卓院長到台中還有我們的曾董事長到台中說的其實我們有對照都是一樣的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9831.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9853.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那一樣的數據更恐怖了我現在我現在只有1100到1200你明明白白赤裸裸的告訴我2031年是1260萬公噸我們中部人怎麼辦怎麼會可以如此你環評通過了你就赤裸裸告訴我煤炭的量我們中部人怎麼辦部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9856.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9872.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我幾乎要用懇求因為你是部長欸你是環境部的部長你不能當為經濟部底下的環境師欸報告委沒有喔 對不對我們沒有我們完全是嚴格審查我們嚴格監督他的這個使用美的這個量那為什麼2031年告訴我們的是1260那換句話說從現在開始到2031年7年你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9880.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9882.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
檢煤怎麼檢?怎麼檢?當然現在我再一次告訴你現在的量是1100至1200公噸對不對你怎麼可以你到2031年是1260萬公噸部長就這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9906.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9931.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
你一時間答不出來我願意給你時間你去把我理清楚我要求的沒關係我要求的是說環評通過了我們中部人很無奈可是我們還是要捍衛我們的健康你們的減煤你從現在開始到2031年你的減煤你的量數要怎麼樣去探題你請書面資料給本席好不好多久時間給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9934.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9951.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個減煤的量是要台電他們提供的。 多久時間給我沒關係你告訴我。 兩週內。 兩週內告訴我以人民的健康為基準。 以減煤的量數為基準好不好沒關係你提供給本席接下來本席要告訴你肺癌已經是國人十大癌症的死因第一名。 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9953.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9980.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這已經很多年對不對我們中部地區更可憐更可憐沒有人就成不了國家了啦所以我要拜託部長我們看到WHO已經將PM2.5的平均濃度標準下修對不對對沒錯他從15下修加鹽到12維克每立方米對不對他最終目標對最終最終而且沒有不是最終目標而且離喔離WHO的5維克 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9983.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9997.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他最終目標是五維克對不對最終目標是五維克喔你你是專家你講清楚最終目標是五維克他現在要修他是修到從加研到12所以可以顯示這個議題的嚴重性 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10001.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10028.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
危害到人民的健康所以部長本席要要求我們怎麼樣去管制這個措施的一個成效你要怎麼樣滾動性的去檢討空污的防治方案請你告訴我報告委員其實空污的來源除了點源像中火也有線源交通也有面源整個範圍其實中部的汽機車還是在增加的還要各方面多方的管制但是我們中火還是最大宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10029.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10048.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
沒有,其實中華在過去這幾年我們有監督它的用煤量顯著的減少,總污染量也顯著的減少,但是其實台中還有很多的...部長你有一個觀念本席要告訴你,我以台中人的身份告訴你。中華減煤是應當的,空污要改善也是應當的,因為我們已經付出了那麼多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10050.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10066.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
獲出了那麼多這是應當的不要再告訴我以前我們有撿多少沒院長已經告訴我們了2031年1260讓我嚇一跳我現在才1100到1200他告訴我的是如此這7年我們怎麼過 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10067.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10092.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
你是不是要無斷的給我增加?所以我願意跟你理性討論,你告訴我,你順便資料給我,怎麼樣去防範這些空污,你怎麼樣滾動去討論這些的措施。所以,碳費的問題,上一次本席跟你討論過了。專款專用在碳的這個制度改善,這個大家有共識。給地方,那麼大家也有共識。 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10094.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10111.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以在這樣的情況之下我也謝謝你上次你也認同我說中華是很嚴重的很嚴肅的一個議題所以我們應當分配的時候應該要加成的分配這個你也說你同意納入考量嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10112.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10136.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以我請教部長也就是我們在討論碳費用途的這個屋管基金會的委員將地方政府來納入聽到真正人民的聲音是否成案會不會將地方政府來納入讓他們成為委員來共同討論目前這個法這個我們因為屋管基金的執法現在正在送行政院的審查我們也預公告這個是時機啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10137.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10158.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
對,那這個未來我們真的會列入考慮。對,會列入考慮。不是考慮,你要去達證成功。但是也報告委員,你的立場是贊成是不是?其實我們環境部有一半的預算都是給地方在做使用的。我請問,將地方政府納入成為委員,你的立場是贊成的嗎?所以你才會送嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10159.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10177.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
其實這個目前我們未來就是看這個法案的修正的狀況但是這個原則性我們因為環境部包含的委員也是來自於地方所以其實我們跟地方的合作是非常密切的所以會納入嗎可以納入來考慮那什麼時候你們會開會你們KPI大概都多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10177.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10196.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
目前預計是明年年初啦,因為這個法案還在審查,因為還要委員的聆聘等等。 對對對對,所以明年年初開會,我也希望你的提供將地方政府納為委員,實際上聽到民眾的聲音,居城的聲音齁,你平平點頭。接下來我最後一個議題也就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10197.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10222.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
中華的碳排如此那所以我說的我們如市長說八成分給地方你還有兩成啊還是可以去分配啊這個是全國一致性那不管分配多少我還是要拜託中華的地區你應該要有加成的比例分配因為我們付出最多我們必須要減的要蓋的也是最多同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10223.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10247.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
二氧化碳跟空污污染物是不一樣的東西二氧化碳例如說我現在講話也排除二氧化碳你會受到我的影響健康傷害嗎不會所以碳排跟空污這兩件事情是可以不一樣的來看待的啦那委員的建議我們會納入考慮是不一樣的看待當然但是還是回歸本席的議題所以我具體建議付出那麼多的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10248.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10249.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
除了要怎麼跟世界接軌之外必須先決條件要讓地方可以一起來參與實際上的去改善嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10268.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10271.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
對我還是具體建議這個對我要謝謝你具體建議我們中國的地區我們台中在分配的時候必須要加成加重比例分配給我們去改善我認為這個是對全國絕對有幫助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10285.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10308.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
報告委員地方環保局還有更多可以改善空污的空間我們也希望台中市更努力啦我們非常的努力但是我們的污染源這麼多但是還有很多縣市更努力希望台中很努力我們非常努力你不用跟我辯因為跟我辯沒有用跟我辯是沒有用的你懂意思嗎因為人民的健康只有一個所以希望你能夠納入好嗎好謝謝委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10312.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10329.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
謝謝楊瓊英委員的發言。謝謝部長。下一位我們請林淑芬委員發言。好,謝謝主席。是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10332.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10345.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
李委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10360.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10370.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
bicyclope 高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在現立法院於不易現我們未完委員會於不易的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個未完委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10377.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10382.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你獻我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10407.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10410.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去刑你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施、光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10436.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10443.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10445.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10456.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
媒體披露以後你就說好旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了關鍵產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10469.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10496.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
゚∀゚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10496.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10514.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
bicy 大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10515.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10541.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就要評估了要下放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10542.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10562.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那時候是委託給這個15個地方在所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10563.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10578.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們司長來回答不用我幫你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10586.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10599.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
事實上呢你們說要健全完平審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣二十幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10617.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10630.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評事情細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10635.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10663.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10664.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10684.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10685.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10705.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10706.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10733.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
就將案件放下這個地方。他們不同意。宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷。新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們的升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10734.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10761.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10763.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10779.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10785.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10787.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10810.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10832.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把三個所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10835.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10845.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
地方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛行細則以後大開後門人家在質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10865.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10880.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10882.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10906.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10908.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10922.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10923.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10924.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10950.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10964.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。舉臺東縣政府這個例子可以證明臺東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂計不依法行政。 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10966.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10983.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10986.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11013.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
程序黑箱拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評環工土木背景沒有海洋生態沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定義而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11014.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11022.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11028.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11044.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11047.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11071.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失利不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我們未來呢環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子騎上門下你知道這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11074.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11092.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
你要打算放過環境標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環境不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11093.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11118.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都說回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都說回來了還會不會有爭議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11121.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11130.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
就是說台東縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之時還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11133.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11154.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格大多數都很弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11155.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11184.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合好東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方沒有也都收回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11190.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11213.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11216.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11216.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11234.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11248.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11250.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11264.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
兩、檢查中長形態遭容表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致省和公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11266.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11273.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11285.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11296.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
您不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是為虎作倉是笨還是壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11299.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11319.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多? |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11321.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11340.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
這是什麼意思?你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦 這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11340.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11352.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我們管的是那個山坡地15公斤。對啊!大面積的啊!15公斤很大耶!那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億耶!然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11372.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11393.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
蛤?你講不出來喔?這個有一點前因後果的這個過程啦你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這一些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11401.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11420.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11421.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11448.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11448.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11473.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11475.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11503.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
對不對那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台中縣政府然後他又要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11505.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11518.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個天高皇帝緣啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11519.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11539.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11540.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11556.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11561.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11576.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
你在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。 有一個時間序列,那我在這個5個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11577.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11602.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11602.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11626.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好,我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦不要浪費時間,你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教,謝謝好,謝謝林淑芬委員的發言謝謝部長下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11634.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11636.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,再請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11640.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11665.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
黃委員好部長好部長就剛剛林委員講的因為我們最近也看到這個不論是彰化或雲林鄉長然後代表會主席都因為這個光電的弊案所以我剛剛非常贊同林委員講的確實一些環評應該是中央這邊要來主導而不是交給地方如果地方的權限太大其實這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11666.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11687.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
bicyclone我是覺得說還是會層出不窮所以剛剛林委員講的我覺得這一點真的我也非常贊同而且我在前陣子又看到一個報導可能就是那個光電這個可能一些外商在做光電他可能還要額外去附一些地方的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11689.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11703.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
公關費用所以讓他們覺得說要在臺灣投資這個他們玩不下去所以我覺得說部長真的這件事要非常的鄭重來正視這個議題那部長是不是你再回應一下好謝謝委員那剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11705.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11732.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
謝謝林委員還有委員的這個指教那我以後會絕對會妥善的來處理那我再次重申就是說旅館業、文教業還有這種所謂的太陽光店未來的處理還是收回中央那未來呢我們希望花一年的時間因為我目前在3、4月的時候環境部已經委託15個地方來幫助這個旅館業的這個環評審核那目前只有兩個案例我希望到明年年底我們配合環評總體檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11733.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11735.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11735.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11759.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
當然地方我覺得地方他們已經有一些環評能力是不錯但是的確這個委員說到的一個問題我也看到了所以我們未來會從體檢之後明年完整希望年底的時候再來看一次要做怎麼樣的分工因為如果沒有地方的這種監督其實都靠中央的人力一方面要這個環評一方面要監督這個人力是沒有辦法做得到那麼精準的我希望中央跟地方要一起合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11761.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11783.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
接下來我想請教部長就是我們在那個環境部12號就是預告修正水污費的這個收費辦法那有新增加安淡然後新洗收費的項目那我想請教就是說其實目前這個安淡是河川中重度污染核斷主要的因素這個污染項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11783.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11806.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那我想請教的就是其實我們也看到台灣的很多河川都是受到污染的我相信部長你這陣子你也時常跑地方嘛那你看到地方有很多河川你看了你也會覺得說我們到國外去看到河川是很乾淨的可是台灣的河川確實是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11809.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11810.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
bicyclist |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11829.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11854.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那電渡廠他可能直接把水直接灌到地下水區那後來在2013年就有這個檢察官帶隊然後去搜然後確定那也罰也開罰了那罰了1億多那其實我覺得在最近在今年還是有抓到就是有業者他也是非法排放那甚至他的孽是超標超標到這個400多倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11856.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11878.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那類似這樣子我是想要請教部長因為目前經濟部也好他們也在鼓勵這些電鍍業者應該是要往這個章濱這個淪為區有一個電鍍區就是往這邊走希望能夠就是遷到那邊去那我們也看到一個狀況就是說這個工業區這個污水管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11884.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11911.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這個工業區的污水管理我們發現就是說這個環境污染的這個裁罰總額是這個工業區是被裁罰的大戶就像這個經濟部的這個管理的桃園、觀音、大園還有中壢的這個工業區那這個觀音的部分16年這個被罰了160多次那總額是將近這個台幣1億那我想請教就是說各個工業區的這個水 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11912.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11913.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
環境部你應該要怎麼去督導這件事? |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11941.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11966.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
包委員 這個我請我們司長來回答謝謝謝謝委員關心這件事情我想工業區基本上它有一個經濟部有一個延期管理局它負責這個區內工業區設有專用污水下水道系統的一個相關的一個監督管理跟計畫的一個補助有些工業區基本上它的一個區內事業的廢污水特性基本上就相對複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11967.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11996.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以它的污水處理的一個操作的量能基本上有不足的現象所以呢這個沿管局他目前的一個做法就是會針對這一個需要改善的呢他有一些透過ROT的方式在引入外界的一個資源公司協力跟這個技術的能力來改善他的污水處理設備但是我們覺得說除了污水處理設備的一個提升之外更大的問題是區內事業的一個管理也就是說區內事業要符合納管限值做排放 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11997.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12014.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
然後透過一個專用的污水下水道系統送到污水處理場來處理所以區內事業的一個納管常常是會有超排的現象那超排之後呢而造成這個污水處理場的負荷突變變化變異太大然後呢這個污水處理的操作常常會有盪掉的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12015.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12039.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以我們基本上有建議他我們也開過一個協調會開過一個研商會就是要怎麼樣來整合這個現有的一個技術跟一個特別是這個感測的技術怎麼樣在沿途做納管的一個監控然後呢透過污水下水道系統的一個收集然後來做一些相關的一些溯源的追蹤來讓這個區內事業呢要符合納管限制那你們現在已經開始做了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12039.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12039.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
»:是,好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12068.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12093.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我希望就是說應該是要從我們自己可以管的這個工業區應該是經濟部工業區然後跟你們應該要互相合作因為他放流出去了然後超標罰錢罰錢就沒事了嘛所以我覺得這一件我後面我還會繼續追啦另外我想請教就是說彰化還是有很多都是喝地下水 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12094.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12123.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
bicyn 很多都還喝地下水而且我們一直在申請就是說希望這個無自來水地區的民眾能夠這個中央政府政府能夠持續能夠自來水的接管可是很可惜就是說這個速度還是蠻慢的那我想請教就是說我剛剛有講章化這個電鍍電鍍業者就是在這幾年是希望他們能夠簽到這個電鍍專區那還是有一些他是沒辦法簽就是說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12124.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12125.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12148.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12149.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12175.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12178.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12196.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12197.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12214.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12216.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12236.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12237.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12261.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12286.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
瓜布會的去溝通,不論是經濟部、內政部我覺得這個一定要跨部會的溝通而且這個髒化地下水真的大家都會擔心就是說這個水兩三個禮拜這個濾芯就要換一次那民眾長期使用這樣的水確實會身體健康會受到很大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12288.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12313.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
謝謝委員的意見其實我還沒有上任之前有一些環工的風險的專家就跟我講過這個問題我也很樂意找時間我再全面的瞭解然後可能要整合很多的部會包含農水署等等還有經濟部等等所以我們會來做這個事情再委員再給我一點點時間謝謝好謝謝那繼續加油謝謝好謝謝黃星光委員的發言下一位我們請洪森漢委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12326.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12346.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
請彭部長。好,有請彭部長。黃委員好。部長早,因為我時間有限。這幾天其實我們大家都有看到環境部針對其實在今年的在亞塞拜蘭的一些進行的狀況。有一些我們的記者會,或者是一些發生的這個狀況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12348.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12377.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那部長但是我也看到你在COP第一天的記者會上面其實有提到其實有許多參與的專家朋友們其實都有收到一封來自ULFCCC的這個主辦方的信件那這個信件上面表示參與此會議的目的要很清楚是為了減碳而不是為了表率或者是會議後做某些商業利益的宣稱部長你覺得這個ULFCCC主辦方為什麼要做這樣子的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12378.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12401.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
報告委員因為其實的確有一些單位或團體他藉由這個參加會議然後他說是一個代表團的身份或是花錢購買了一些記者會或是桌邊會議然後就宣稱他是聯合國的相關的然後這個呢透過新聞的傳送就變成他是這個領域或是他是最棒的那的確會造成整個社會的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12402.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12429.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
因為我們現在很關心一個事情第一個是其實我想這兩個月其實很多單位都有收到一封檢舉信那這封檢舉信其實就是在這個VERA就是國際探權的這個核發跟認證機構上面的這個VCS的平台上面這封檢舉信那這封檢舉信裡面當然裡面的內容提到了這個有來自 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12430.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12458.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
臺灣的機構在參與COP28的這個會議的時候宣稱了自己這個通過了這個VERA相關的探權上面的批准那這個檢舉信的內容是指說這樣子的宣稱恐怕跟實質的狀況是不吻合的是不符合的是有落差的部長您有沒有收到這封檢舉信?報告委員有的這個我們氣候署署長正在處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12459.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12476.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
其實我們看到這東西其實我跟部長說其實你應該知道很多這段時間關心這個國際的組織關心氣候變遷的國際的組織包括探權的相關的組織都有收到這封信那我們其實看了以後其實很多國際的氣候組織都來紛紛問我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12478.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12496.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這一封檢舉信上面的內容是否屬實?到底他說的是對的還不對?他的指控到底是對的還不對?因為裡面內容還包括我們來自台灣的機構是不是有違反其他國家在探權認定上面相關的法規或方法學上面的規範。 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12498.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12517.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那不然我對於這個信上面的內容是不是真的當然我沒有進行調查我無法斷定可是我認為環境部應該要積極的查明這件事情這件事情為什麼重要我們不能讓其他的國家不管是官方單位、民間單位、專業單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12519.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12527.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
adequation to the issue of carbon rights related to Taiwan, the question of creating trust. |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12527.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12542.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這個我想部長應該很清楚其實一個合法的碳權的申請尤其經過國際組織它是一個相當繁瑣的申請為什麼要走過這麼多相關的步驟的原因就是要去確認這個credit的這個字有些人發現信用某個部分也是大家怎麼對它產生信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12543.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12571.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
有這個信任你才有辦法進行所謂的經濟市場上面的流通或者是交易等等等的這個事情重點是在這個他要有一定可信的正當性包括合法性的部分這很重要所以部長我們能不能我們能夠在多短時間裡面把剛剛的這個訊息給查明到底指控是否屬實如果有誤會那也澄清有誤會但如果說的是真的那我們環境部的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12573.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12590.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
報告委員我們請氣候署署長跟委員報告因為這一個案件他是跟國際民間單位就是VERA來申請註冊所以他相關的提到的這個檢舉性的內容確實我們的了解是VERA他們自己本身也有請這個案件的申請單位要去釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12591.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12604.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
當然他會涉及到我們國內的就是包括會金管單位因為他可能也有事上是上規的公司的這個相關的事情所以我們目前已經確認就是金管會已經有掌握這個案子的這個進展那當然剛剛委員提醒是說他在這個某個國家做的這個專案是不是有符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12613.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12625.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
人家的這些相關的法規這個部分我們也可以再找這個我們國內的相關但畢竟他是我們不是沒有辦法去對他的這個申請去做做釐清啦而做做確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12626.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12648.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
»: 但我們可以來再進一步的去掌握。 »: 我覺得當然它這個其實是一個像VERA就是國際上面大概最重要的幾個國際探訣人機構的檢舉。但是我自己認為我們自己的環境部對於像這樣子的事情到底我們的具體掌握,因為看到這個這次檢舉性的時間出來的時間其實是9月。其實距今已經兩個月了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12649.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12672.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
到底我們掌握﹖我覺得剛才聽起來這樣的話其實掌握的內容是不太足夠的喔到底有沒有違反其他國家相關的法律我為什麼當然這件事情本身的釐清他會去做某些部分他該做的事情可是我們的環境部我認為要扮演的角色是要讓我們自己的企業很清楚規矩是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12674.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12688.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
規範是什麼不能夠違反的是什麼因為當只要今天有一家企業在一個國際的平台上面有違反的時候很可能會讓其他的國際組織對同樣都是來自於台灣的計畫來自於台灣的project |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12689.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12691.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
bicynnello、Pierre-Pierre |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12709.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12734.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
當然現在大家都在談減碳很多企業、很多民眾、很多社會都在談減碳我覺得這是好事可是我們也這裡看到其實有很多利用資訊不對稱的這個狀況其實會讓很多人受騙之前我其實已經開記者會其實提過了包括讓不了解探權或者是近鄰的民眾可能付了高昂的補習的費用或者是拿了其實明明不被官方認證的這樣子的一個證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12736.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12764.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這都是在利用資訊不對等的狀況甚至有些我們看到它還造成在股市股價上面的波動那這對一些資訊不對稱的投資人來說也是不公平的事情我認為環境部應該要很清楚告訴大家我要再講一次現在哪裡要符合什麼規矩要符合什麼規範不然這樣資訊不對等的狀況如果繼續延燒的話或更廣泛的出現這狀況的話很有可能會引起社會對於以後都覺得在講減碳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12766.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12791.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
是不是都是投機行為?我們當然不希望大家現在非常非常期待的氣候行動都被認知為可能都是投機行為。我覺得這對於未來環境部在減碳淨零的工作上也會出現很大的阻礙。所以部長我覺得有幾個部分我們怎麼避免票率包括應該依據國際市場的高標準來進行審核跟運作資訊應該透明不可以過度的做不實的宣傳要符合申請國的規範要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12792.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12818.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
不可以濫用頭銜來誤導民眾這現在很多人在幹這事情喔媒體如果不導如果有誤導不實的話媒體如果不確定的話應該請教環境部給予明確的資訊至少給予清楚的透明化的資訊我覺得環境部可以做的事情部長我們應該更積極這應該沒有問題吧好包委員您說的這個部分我們有在做但是或許我們做的還不夠我會持續的加強而且要更加大力道的對外宣示 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12818.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12844.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
bicy,我看到你最近跟外交部有合作關於一些氣候外交的部分也談到一些可能探權的合作我們要談到跨國探權前如果沒有辦法把這個規範清清楚楚的讓外界知道的話其實也會有人疑慮太快的進到所謂的國際探權會不會有更多這樣的投機行為或者是利用更大的跨國之間的資訊不對稱不對稱在做炒作的部分如果我們有更在這方面有更大的雄心我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12845.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12845.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
bicyclap |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12857.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12858.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
謝謝紅身漢委員接下來請黃建斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12910.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12910.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
黃偉洋議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12919.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12944.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
部長,剛剛聽到有其他委員在提到關於台東縣的問題。我想每一個縣市、每一個地方發展它都有因為法令上的關係或是管理上的一些疏失造成一些問題。不過我相信台東縣政府這幾年其實也很用心的想要把這些問題來解決。像部長你上次來台東應該也有感受到台東整個環境的改變,包括整個環保概念其實也有提升。 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12946.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12964.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我們都希望能夠在產業發展跟永續上能夠取得平衡而不是零和遊戲那我想自己的家自己最在乎那這邊也請部長放心關於台東的這些相關問題我們都來努力也希望一起跟部裡面來合作齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12965.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12982.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那像上次也提到說部長上次也口頭允諾說要協助臺東縣政府在這個粉花爐外圍的這個改造跟粉刷的部分先謝謝部長那臺東縣政府之後也會趕快把計畫收到部裡面來也請部這邊來協助讓整個環境能夠更好好謝謝那 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12985.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12989.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這是我們台東的糧倉,就是實際上關山跟鹿野這一塊,那也是全台灣最大的有機米的生產基地。 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13005.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13025.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那你也部長知道齁,這個五股豐收之後就會帶動很多其他的產業,像畜牧業啊、汽滴汽、雞汽啊、汽油汽,這些東西、化石料,畜牧業會帶來另外一個比較讓人家頭痛的就是排泄物的問題。那這邊就是要跟部長來討論就是說,臺灣縣政府這幾年為了想要徹底的來改善這些問題, |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13027.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13045.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
因為在產業發展的過程裡面產生這些閒物的設施跟這些氣味是讓整個關山鎮地區的民眾非常困擾的那臺灣憲民會這次找了關山鎮公所還有一些業者一起來討論未來要送出一個叫做畜牧糞尿資源化處理的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13051.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13075.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
希望在這個事情上能夠徹底的將幾十年來的問題來改善。那我們也很謝謝我們昨天我們的王市長也有我邀請了王市長還有我們環保局來共同來商討。因為這個計畫當時送了兩次都被推薦。那也謝謝我們市裡面這邊來指導讓我們有第三次的計畫。我們希望透過這次計畫真的能夠提到能夠達到未來整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13076.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13078.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13091.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13110.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
規範來協助我們地方政府來做這件事情,否定可不可以。 報告委員這個其實我非常關心關山的那我也到了花蓮玉里的璞石閣我們未來至少要打造成跟璞石閣一樣但是每一個地方我們每一個地方的特色特別是他的財務規劃那目前呢他已經送進來在我們環境部在審核當中我們一定會全力支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13111.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13128.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
市長,這個案子不但可以解決二充的問題,我們也可以有效地徹底排廢的這些廢棄物,不管是做未來綠能的發展,或者是利用菌的發酵讓它作為營養液來做循環的經濟,我想這個是我們要共同努力的目標。 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13128.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13129.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
謝謝黃建斌委員接下來請圖全級委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13164.945 |
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好謝謝主席請我們彭部長 請彭部長 |
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土友也好。好,彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法? |
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13216.961 |
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報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含了這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中央來處理但是因為地方喔像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦 |
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所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了 |
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13240.365 |
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13264.859 |
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那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊? |
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13266.803 |
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13286.203 |
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bicyc,我會改進。未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的。好。針對預算的部分,我們去年8月22號從環保署升格變成環境部。當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大。當然我們也針對剛剛 |
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13287.504 |
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13316.745 |
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我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們說 |
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請市長回應。 |
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13331.353 |
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13352.83 |
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報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方但是對於地方的人員的培訓或者人力的補償我們是有研議其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的 |
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13353.87 |
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13370.536 |
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應該是說我們的環評的錢本來就少所以它增加一點錢它的比率就好像比較高那實際上我們是希望未來可以導入AI甚至是我們現在正在委辦要辦那個環評總極限這些都需要費用我們公務預算主要是用在這相關方面的 |
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13370.925 |
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13383.896 |
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所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛 |
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13409.917 |
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沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體檢都需要用到這些經費 |
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13416.03 |
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13440.238 |
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所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是 |
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13441.898 |
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13455.697 |
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bicyclone 跟未來我們審查數量的部分可能讓我們來了解一下為什麼下放地方之後正常應該是數量減少結果反而預算增加這一部分希望提供一些數據讓我們來了解一下 |
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13457.472 |
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13485.649 |
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好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣 |
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13507.824 |
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部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13510.423 |
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13529.99 |
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嗯,這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修法的時候是訂定這個副表把他權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把 |
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13532.53 |
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13551.721 |
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與管、文教設施這個敏感區域把它修法變成是中央來審查因為主要就是因為美麗灣的事件所以後來把它修法變成中央來審查那我們後來為什麼會在想說地方是不是能辦是因為其實經過這麼多年以來的話地方 |
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bicyclone 跟我們講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致那相關考量點也一樣那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見 |
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13606.163 |
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那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
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二、延期延期延期延期 |
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我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案 |
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那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們更名正言順去要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高 |
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13696.26 |
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包括原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。 |
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好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望 |
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bicy,謝謝部長。 |
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13754.637 |
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好,謝謝圖全級委員。我們中午不休息直達這個質詢結束。那這邊,環境部這邊可以用餐了。好,接下來請林俊憲委員發言。好,謝謝主席。表示邀請我們環境部彭部長。請彭部長。 |
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13789.077 |
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議員好,部長好。部長,前幾天颱風嘛,下大雨啊。那我們台南啊,南區就是台南跟高雄邊界的二人溪啊,這曾經是全世界最堵的河川之一啊。因為下大雨的沖刷啊,你看一下哦,現在就是把一些過去的廢棄物啊,現在都顯露出來了。 |
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13790.168 |
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13809.88 |
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那顯露出來以後啊,很多人就擔心啊,因為水啊,這樣會不會再把一些有毒的東西給溶屎出來。我們看到齁,那這個其實歷史共業啊,這個非常淒慘啊。那過去是我們台灣環保運動,環保的一個大災難啊。以前大概也沒有什麼這樣的觀念啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13810.981 |
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13812.302 |
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三、審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度 |
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13830.205 |
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13832.406 |
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二、邀請檢查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13850.834 |
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13867.587 |
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六十五公里就六萬五千公尺啦那只有八百公尺是乾淨的其他都是非常恐怖的污染狀況那我們要來清理這樣的歷史工業一定需要中央的一個支持啦我不知道部長你有沒有這樣的一個看法 |
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13868.477 |
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13893.214 |
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報告委員這個我禮拜一的時候也去台南看了那也跟委員報告委員看到那個圖片我也看到了真的是沒想到台灣還有這個地方啦那目前其實跟委員報告我們上禮拜因為這個其實也是一個歷史工業那要討論主管單位其實過去幾年討論了很久那也跟委員報告上禮拜行政院也召集我們各部會來討論這個事情那也跟委員報告我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13894.054 |
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13915.524 |
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環境部願意專案的方式來負擔整個整合中央的窗口那也希望台南市目前希望我們已經告知台南市政府了希望他們趕快提一個計畫出來然後我們環境部來協助整個經費的爭取然後來合作來清除這件事情因為我當然要感謝部長的支持其實二輪區的整治最早是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13917.024 |
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13941.915 |
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賴清德總統擔任立法委員的時候啦因為我是承接他的立委選區啦那賴清德總統在擔任立委他每一年都會邀請那時候叫環保署啦的署長去走一趟二人溪啦我剛準備要邀請你去坐一下二人溪坐船在上面的感覺你昨天是不是在岸邊看嘛岸邊看我找你坐的時候就在看嘛你有知道他的胸部啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13943.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13959.505 |
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現在經過一些初步的場域我現在給你看這個表大概ABC第四個地方第一是高雄這一邊ABC是在我們台南這一邊大概估計還有14000噸的廢棄物等待清理這樣的經費絕對非常龐大初步算起來有各種的計算方式台南市的一個專案大概要7億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13972.657 |
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13974.078 |
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部長你有看過這個表嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13974.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13996.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
有,有看過。這是我們台南市的廢棄物清理費用的估算。這筆經費一定要請中央來支持,一定要請部長用專案全力,這個坦白講也是洗刷台灣的一個恥辱。就灣里那個地方停止燒廢物精已經很多年了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13997.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14025.894 |
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但這種對環境的破壞啊幾十年你都難以恢復啊那現在我們過去20年來其實它都還是一直維持在中度汙染雖然有減輕啊雖然有減輕所以我們可以看得到衛生系裡面也有魚啦但禁止釣啦那個不能吃啦那也沒人敢吃啦那也有水鳥也有回來啦但是喔基本上它在我們的環境的汙染指數上還是中度的汙染 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14027.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14054.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那這部部長那後續這樣的計畫請部長你的看法呢?好,報告委員目前我們是等我們已經告知市府尤其環保局他們來提相關的計畫那未來呢我們會由我們這邊來審核然後也會從中央行政院那邊來爭取經費所以我們希望盡快來推動這個事情那未來要推動的時候呢也希望委員來支持那我們也會跟這個地方的環保單位環團一起來合作 |
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14055.128 |
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14072.083 |
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所以我也跟卓榮泰院長報告啦。我說這個部分一定要做啦。說到現在的話,其實過去我們都是每一年啦,那治標稍微弄一下啦。我大概統計一下中央歷年來對207整治的一個經費補助喔,平均他每一年大概只有800萬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14073.024 |
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14075.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
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14092.116 |
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14102.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以這個部分我希望彭部長第一個金面上你也答應來支持第二個盡速來進行好不好沒問題沒問題謝謝委員好感謝部長謝謝主席謝謝林俊憲委員接下來請陳穎委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩請彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14124.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14138.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
陳委員好部長好你現在肚子很餓嗎還可以血糖還可以所以我們今天應該不會發生因為你太餓了然後就結束了本席的質詢吧不會不會那希望你能夠撐下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14140.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14150.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
最近從媒體的報導環境部成立了第29次全球氣候變遷締約國大會的戰情中心這是過去從來沒有過的創舉因此我要在這邊請教這個戰情中心它是一個任務編組嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14162.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14189.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
報告委員因為全世界UFCCC有197個地約方啦那全世界大概200多個國家那我大概我有上確GPT還有各自查過全世界有三個環境部長是負責氣候變遷的沒辦法去一個是半地崗一個是Costal War另外一個就是台灣那我自己因為我以前都參與很多那這次我沒有辦法參與但是我們覺得我們還是要積極的去跟國際接軌知道他們在做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14190.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14198.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
所以我們就設了這個暫停中心現在其實是每天中午12點一直工作到晚上我們隨時收集資訊所以他是一個這兩個禮拜的當中的任務編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14199.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14222.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好,那所以大概你們有編列多少預算嗎?沒有預算。好,那我大概就了解一下齁,那這個戰情中心的組織大概有多少人?然後這個大概多少人?現在我平常去看的話大概有15個人左右。15個齁,那戰情室的指揮官是誰?應該不是趙少康啦齁?不是不是不是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14225.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14238.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
是我們蔡署長好蔡署長好好那我們前線派出去參加會議的這個組織或團體有多少個那他們有什麼樣的配備好那然後這些可以即時回傳訊息這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14240.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14264.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
報告委員可以但是因為我們臺灣因為這次這個亞賽拜仁他的這個國家立場上比較特別一點點所以我們也保持我們的低調我們以務實的獲取臺灣最大的權利為基礎所以人的部分還有層級的部分也請委員給我一點空間但是我們的確派了很多的智庫給你空間是要保密的意思還是怎麼樣因為聽了好久還聽不到數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14265.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14274.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
嗯,我們都保持暢通的聯絡,但是其實有些我們不要對外曝光。好,就不方便講,就方便在這裡回答就是了。對,對,對。好,我也不會逼你啦,講就好了,因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14275.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14279.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
根據戰情中心成立的意旨,這次會議的主題有什麼樣的訊息跟情資?需要環境部派這些人熬夜輪值,而且必要時要下達部長的指令。 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14302.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14305.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
大概工作到晚上8、9點左右就結束,中午開始工作。感覺大家都很有那個熱忱。 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14318.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14338.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
有有有那根據本辦的瞭解齁這次主席呢是亞塞拜然的這個生態與自然資源部的部長那除了部長層級之外呢有其他國家的領導人會出席嗎有非常多但是沒有像往年那麼的多那我聽說是拜登也會去但是還沒有確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14339.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14359 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好,那我們台灣並不是締約國只是說在這個會議討論出來的決議會有影響我國政策跟權益的議題嗎?報告委員目前最關注的就是巴黎氣候協定的第6條6.4那它這個最主要是全球的碳市場的建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14359.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14371.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那目前我們最關注這一條因為這個會跟台灣未來的包括我們的出口我們的探定價會有很顯著的關係所以目前這個是這次可能會有一個很重大的通過我們是密切關注這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14373.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14397.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
所以部長因為這樣聽下來你真的非常的投入很有那個熱情然後既然成立了這個戰情中心那我覺得這個會不會是有可能來增加我們未來成為締約國的機會再更進一步這樣子我個人是期待我也希望有一朝一日我用環境部長的身份能夠參加UFCCC但是我也知道國際的現實但是我很務實低調的來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14399.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14423.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
好那在這次的這個戰情中心的成立記者會部長有提到就是說擔心美國總統當選人可能會產生全球淨零轉型的亂流那因為我不太清楚你這樣講的原因是什麼啦因為畢竟就是說我們這樣子去評論他國的決定特別是美國這樣子泱泱大國 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14425.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14447.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
就是這樣會不會太過於偏頗我是有一點擔心而且我們也不是締約國我們雖然不是締約國但是我們一直在很努力在推動在做從事這個保護環境然後朝著這個節能減碳的這個目標一直在做努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14450.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14476.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
只是說因為現在當然就是說當時我們現在就是已經當選的川普未來的總統就是說讓美國退出締約國就是說他講了這樣的話那你怎麼斷定說他們退出了他就不會去致力於在這個善盡這個地球公民的責任然後反而成為你口中的亂流 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14478.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14499.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
因為部長你現在應該已經沒有在播報氣象了沒有沒有沒有所以這個到底是怎麼樣因為我有點擔心這樣的言論會有不良的影響報告委員因為當時是因為這個那幾天那個全世界的所有的評論都是非常的負面 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14500.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14517.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那也跟委員報告其實經過這幾次我們也成立一個小組專門探討川普總統的未來的這個政策那我也必須說其實川普他跟8年前的那時候退出的這個巴黎氣候協定的這個方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14517.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14518.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
bicyclone |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14542.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14566.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我其實有點聽不太懂這個部長的意思所以這樣亂流他是一個正向的字眼還是亂流之後會雨過天晴然後會影響未來應該會雨過天晴而且會慢慢的回到一個正軌那我個人是不擔心因為我們目前其實所以你講的亂流不是指 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14567.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14587.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
不是指川普?可能因為國際的氣候談判目前的確是有一點有一點這個大家擔心這個未來會怎麼樣不確定所以不確定性當然就用這個亂流形容是非常的貼切但是我也必須說因為川普總統他過去這個8年都參與很多的選舉他對於治國有他一定的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14587.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14613.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那根據我們現在我們評估起來其實他相信在淨零部份他一定有他的看法我們也很樂意 我想是這樣因為我其實你一直在繼續談論這個我有一點很擔心啦我希望因為我很擔心後面如果有什麼差錯我覺得那個有關於這樣子的一個討論我想我們還是先跳過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14615.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14637.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
所以在這一次這個我剛剛提出的問題你所謂的亂流應該本席聽起來它就是一個過程一個過程對但結果會是好的對好的好那大家聽到了那事實上呢本席在第28次的這個會議的時候就有提醒從這個地球憲章 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14638.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14662.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
的這個內容來看呢善用原住民對自然資源的智慧一直是各國規劃保護地球的一個很重要的政策我們不能忘記就是說在這個COVID-19會議的重要議題特別是在這個邀請原住民代表的參與也是一項會議的這個重點那部長去參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14664.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14680.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
嗯過去參加了這麼多次是不是也應該要有這個思考就是說來邀請我們原住民的代表去參加相關的活動然後藉此來吸收各國當時運用原住民智慧的一個具體做法然後帶回來做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14682.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14700.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
報告委員這個其實過去我參加過11次每次原住民都有相對應的活動我都非常感動啦那台灣參與的的確比較少那我們也希望明年COP30在巴西的時候我想我們參與少應該一來資訊少二來也是沒有受到邀請對對我們會來促成這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14700.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14716.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
對,所以希望部長上任之後會有新的氣象。好,謝謝。那本席還要在這裡特別呼籲環境部就是有關於這個永續發展在這次會議是各國優先推動的這個具體目標。 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14718.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14738.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
介注原住民跟自然生態環境融合的智慧那更是就是說規範在地球憲章裡面那環境部未來在這個碳費基金的運用上呢也應該就是不能偏離這個世界潮流一定要記住原住民重要的角色好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14740.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14763.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
所以你們這一次的戰情中心相信對於這個各國因應氣候變遷的這個作為應該也收集了不少資訊了對好那我要在這裡特別要求就是針對各國運用原住民智慧智慧的作為那也要請你們一併收集就是說把整理好的這些資料提供給本辦參考同時呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14764.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14793.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
也要參採這個運用轉化就是未來政策的擬定也要一併加以規劃那更重要的就是說就是說明年你們派出去支持的這個就是說那個民間團體的部分也應該要包含原住民的團體或代表部長是不是可以認同本席的要求非要認同也謝謝委員的指教我們會來促成這些事情好謝謝委員生日快樂 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14796.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14802.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
陳佩玉委員生日快樂。謝謝主席。有請環境部部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14821.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14836.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
陳委員好好部長現在已經是中午了吼今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情您已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查對好這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14839.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14865.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與過多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個討論所以我自己了解之後也跟同仁討論之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14866.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14887.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
我其實一步一步來因為畢竟是旅館已經有先做了然後還有包含文教設施還有光電它是不一樣我很嚴格的去檢視所以後來我完全了解之後今天就在這個透過這個委員會宣布這三個全面收回來謝謝部長你的調整那我來問一下部長這張照片你覺得是旅館還是文教設施這個應該是旅館 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14892.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14916.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14917.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14918.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14918.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14939.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為他是旅館可是台東縣政府說他是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢他租期42年 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14941.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14969.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以我很怕沒另外案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14970.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14972.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
hanoling the Minister, please insist. |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14972.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14975.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
As you said, you think it's a hotel, but you know what? |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14975.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14984.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的。旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評,可是文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的。旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評,可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14985.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15005.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
゚≥≥ |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15005.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15021.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見華人跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15027.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15033.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候呢最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議那根據過去的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15042.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15060.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體、行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15062.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15088.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生了我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15088.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15116.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的領選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15118.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15143.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15146.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15147.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
bicyC. |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15147.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15149.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15167.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15168.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請洪孟楷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15206.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15208.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
主席謝謝麻煩請我們環境部彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15212.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15237.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
黃委員好。部長好。部長COVID-19 29屆的這個氣候部高峰會議現在正在開啟。那當然我們國內沒有辦法受邀參加,但是我們也有所謂的總統的國家氣候變遷對策委員會。你也是委員之一嘛。我是執行秘書。執行秘書。好。今天有個社論標題下得很重。 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15239.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15256.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
總統府氣候大敗敗再開下去有什麼意義?不知道部長有沒有看到這個社論有看到其中他講到兩個部分就是說開了兩次會議第一次的結論根本也不能算是結論第二次比較重要第二次講是說什麼第二次講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15257.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15279.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
要兩個一個是明年一月的時候要提出我國的2032年的減碳目標另外第二個是政府要帶頭減碳我先姑且不論說政府帶頭減碳是過去十幾二十年來大家已經共同共識嘛節能減碳這大家耳熟能詳了那第一個2032年的減碳目標我上一次也在這個委員會請教過你 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15280.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15307.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
第一、2025年你們要減碳10%你承諾你已經親口證實說會跳票做不到第二、2030減碳25%正負1%不知道但2030還沒到馬上又要再提出一個2032這現在是一直往後推就對了報告委員不是的因為我們準備因為這次COVID-19要進到NDC3.0就是說第三份所以等於是要拉到2035那2035總管當中一定有2032 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15310.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15312.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
所以你這一次的這個氣候變遷會議其實主要是因為我們這個COVID-29是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15328.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15354.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
不是就是說其實大家都知道COVID-19這個時候要訂出到2035其實我們整個都順著國際公約在做所以我們正在準備這個過程當中好那我們拉回來如果說要講COVID-19我們就來討論因為我也注意到說我們環境部有所謂的這個戰情中心是兩個部分大家也都講是說其實內行看門道外行看熱鬧那門道的部分就在於是說在這一次的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15355.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15382.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
到底已開發國家願意拿出多少錢給開發中國家來去做共同減碳的一個目標錢才是重點嘛沒錢沒有辦法做嘛第二是他們提出來的2035年的一個減碳計畫減碳目標到底是不是能夠具體的落實因為減碳路徑大家去看就可以看出來是說玩真的玩假的那還有一個很重要是在國際原子能總署他們在開幕的那一天也強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15384.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15413.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
告28的時候有提出核能的運用要2050的時候要提高三倍2020的三倍以上就是說這個目標是不變的為什麼他認為是能源不管是燃氣燃煤都是大宗的排碳能源都是排碳等於減碳的這個很難對抗的敵人也因此希望是用核能或者是說其他的再生能源來取代火力發電所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15413.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15429.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
去年COP28的時候就已經有提出2050三倍的核能發電目標不變。那現在我先把它講完啦。您不用著急。川普總統上任。 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15430.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15457.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
大家之前都在談就是說他有沒有可能也退出巴黎協定這是第一個或者是說他有沒有可能他支持石油跟燃氣發電但不要忘記川普總統即便是他選舉期間講說他支持石油跟燃氣的發電以及開採但是他也同樣支持核能他也支持核能而且他也認為說核能應該要重啟對美國很多地方來講所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15458.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15467.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
拉回來我的問題其實還是很簡單啊老問題啊我們台灣有什麼本錢跟有什麼條件能夠跟世界趨勢背道而馳 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15468.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15485.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
當世界看到減碳目標定在那邊當世界看到能源的運用燃煤燃氣都是排碳的大宗的時候結果台灣背道而馳的是我們把核電廠關掉然後結果我們現在剛剛此時此刻我查台電的官網超過84%85%火力全開發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15490.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15500.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那您覺得如果說以這樣的一個情況不改變世界都在重新重啓核能世界都在重新用核能甚至說2050要達到三倍的核能發電然後結果我們反而是背道而馳 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15507.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15522.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
來部長。 包委員國際能源總署原子能總署他是提倡核能的我們一般會看IEA國際能源總署就跟我們國際的燃煤聯盟他當然是希望全世界都在燃煤發電最有效我請教COP28沒有核能的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15523.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15550.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
二零五零提高二零三零的三倍沒有沒有這個決議那個是場外他們幾個國家但包括說美國包括說其實主要幾個加入的國家也都有這樣的一個倡議報告委員那個沒有列入COVID-28的主決議那有沒有這樣的倡議有沒有這樣的一個討論有沒有這樣的一個方向某些國家的倡議是某些國家的倡議包括美國包括主要國家是那另外我剛講了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15551.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15577.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
就是說不只部長我現在不是要跟你爭執我沒有爭執我現在講的是客觀的事實就是說當世界各國即便是日本即便是日本發生了311事件但日本有沒有完全拋棄核能沒有啊日本他現在還是有重啓核能的計畫美國微軟Google他們有沒有在重啓核能有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15578.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15605.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
那我不懂說你現在一直跟我爭執說這個不是決議這個只是倡議這個只是什麼但重點是當全世界大家都往這方向走我現在本期還再次強調我一直我也沒有說我一定要支持哪一個能源不可但現在我們全體人類面對的目標是什麼是2050要建林碳排是你2032年你們自己要提出來的減碳目標是你2030年你們自己講的減碳25%正負1你達不達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15608.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15624.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
所以其實大家是幫你想方設法你既然已經講出了一個減碳25%正負1的話那你要怎麼做我們大家在關心我們大家在害怕那其中最大宗的排碳大宗火力每天都全開那你跟我講是說時間到了2030就是減碳25%誰相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15629.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15644.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
當川普也都在擁抱核能當美國當COVID-19這一些國家大家都在擁抱他們也不一定都覺得說核能好啊但是核能要幹嘛核能取代不是取代再生能源核能取代是火力發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15645.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15672.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
是用核能取代用不排碳的發電方式去取代排碳的能源方式我們持續的推動再生能源的技術當哪一天再生能源技術真的我們人類有辦法把太陽能轉換成電能把太陽能把風力轉換100%電能的時候我們當然可以捨棄其他我們不要的能源發電啊但在這個過程當中過渡過程當中我們要很務實啊不是嗎那你身為環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15674.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15686.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
我現在提出來你不是經濟部啊你不是台電主管啊你是環境部現在國內最大的排碳大宗就是發電站其中之一不是嗎結果我們開了兩次的這個會議國家氣候變遷委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15691.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15709.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
難怪社會講大拜拜啊因為你沒有針對問題解決問題啊一直要求大家去節能減碳啊我想請教哪一個人不知道要隨手關燈隨手關店但如果說我們需要讓一個總統找環境部部長當執行秘書那麼國家級的大拜拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15710.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15726.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
結果到時候得出的結論不是我們要怎麼樣解決問題怎麼樣提出問題而是我們只告訴大家是說大家共挺時間一下吧那個結論不是這個樣子的那個深度節能有很深的意義在裡面不是叫大家只有節能而已部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15727.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15733.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
你不要一直看著昭偉啦,你好像希望昭偉說時間到了,昭偉怎麼還不站起來,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15733.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15753.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
是,我知道,昭偉感謝啊,感謝你多讓我講這幾分鐘,因為我看部長好像眼神一直跟你求救,想說,欸,洪孟凱怎麼講,還不站起來。 不,不,不,我在看著您啦。 部長,我說實在我不喜歡一直重複講這些事情,但是我覺得,如果說我們環境部主管國家的環境的組織單位, |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15757.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15784.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
都沒有辦法說把真正客觀的事實告訴我們的上尉然後一味的讓這種民粹拉著走那我真的覺得就印證了就是說如果說這樣總統府氣候大敗敗到底有什麼用開了兩次會議但是真正的核心問題不解決不面對到底有什麼用謝謝其實內容非常的多啦齁謝謝但是就是每一個內容都沒有針對問題解決問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15787.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15806.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
好謝謝接下來請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在接下來請伍麗華委員發言謝謝主席有請部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15810.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15828.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
委員好部長好我剛從財政委員會下來那今天財政委員會的專報是來針對就是美國川普當選之後那對我們整個前景的一個衝擊跟影響這很有趣因為川普一當選 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15830.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15831.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15859.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15859.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
關於環境部部長列席報告業務概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15877.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15878.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
bicyclap |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15894.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15913.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
經管會主委、央行他們都說我們國家的這個綠能經濟的政策減碳的政策是對的方向那既定不會改變也覺得未來不會受到影響我就想請教第一個問題部長您覺得那些歐盟會被退出 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15914.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15914.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
公務及基金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15937.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15960.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
况且其實美國也因為這個減碳淨零全世界的科技的投資氣候科技的投資都在美國所以我們認為他不會放棄的所以有沒有預算的一個支持其實反而是我們必須要關注的一個方向對不對我認為對台灣的利益來看的話我們還是需要跟美國做好一個好朋友所以我們未來的調整策略也會省時度式的來做該有的應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15961.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15978.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
好謝謝部長那我就要開始講了為什麼呢因為對於我們來講現在綠色經濟就是險學嘛那我們也希望說可以在我們的山林可以開始去種碳所以呢我們有很多的原住民族人 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15979.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15996.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
bicylaine,他們也不斷的聽說未來碳有價的時代會來臨。我們對於自己的自然碳會也覺得很有信心但是因為大家也不是很懂所以他們常常也面臨到企業來找他們要談合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15997.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16022.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
可是現在是一個詐騙的時代嘛所以大家也都會很害怕因此我在8月2號的時候我有開了一個公聽會就是讓我們的這一些企業跟我們的原鄉族人那麼能不能夠有一個原鄉碳會的ESG的公益平台那麼在這個當中其實我很高興因為後續有了一些迴響像是11月25號 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16025.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16041.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
台灣吉寶結算所願意來支持這個原鄉碳匯ESG的平台所以呢他們也找到了桃園復興區一個幾百公頃的地要來跟他們去做一個NOU的簽署儀式就是讓企業然後台灣吉寶結算所 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16046.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16047.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16062.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16064.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16081.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16082.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
bicyclap |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16102.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16115.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
大家都已經耀耀欲試可是很多的問題需要去確認特別是方法學的部分那在這邊我們也看到在去年的10月有發布一個溫室氣體自願減量的專案管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16118.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16135.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
有公開了13類143項多元減量的方法那2025年呢也開始要來去做一個碳費的申請那2026就會來徵收我現在是想要問我們原鄉齁在這個自然碳費的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16136.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16156.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我們很想要去肯認嘛因為現在只有新植林只有濕地但是我們很關心竹林呢森林呢還有土地的管理方法呢像這一些我們的自然碳會才可能有一席之地嘛所以這個部分我想要了解現在的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16157.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16179.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
報告委員這前面兩個方法已經公告了通過了吼那另外一個呢是我們環境部跟原民會跟農業部組成的一個平台是不是請我們署長來跟他報告因為剛開過會好謝謝我們現在已經除了原本的植樹造林之外現在就是有竹林經營跟森林經營但是因為這些內容比較複雜所以環境部會把它做成懶人包嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16179.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16195.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
゚≥≥ |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16196.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16216.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
但我們也發現到說當然現在第一波堆的是重工業嘛但是國內外第三方驗證機構現在是不到15家而且這個驗證費用目前上路的這些所謂的重工業其實他們驗證費100萬對他們來講也沒有什麼可是我要說的是未來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16216.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16233.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
»: 未來我們要面對這些所以我們很希望我們有看到你們的專報有講說你們為了要強化自願減量這個減量的機制的規定提高查驗機構的量能來滿足需求然後你們有開設盤查作業查驗人員的訓練班 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16237.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16247.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
好那這個部分查驗機構的成立新增查驗的項目增加人員的培訓好我們來看一下預算我這邊看到我們的溫室氣體管理基金目前114年從公務預算有撥補6.7億進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16253.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16265.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
但是我想先請教因為我們知道未來徵收的碳費呢會撥入到溫室氣體管理基金那請教一下部長如果2016年2026年你們預估會收多少進來大概60億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16269.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16281.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
會有60億拿進來好那我看一下喔以這個目前114年撥補進來的6.7億齁放在人力培育的只有4469萬佔7將近8%那部長您覺得這樣夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16287.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16295.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這個當然現在因為我們還有一個是國安院也有一部分的經費啦所以當然現在還是不夠的我希望說未來我們2026年收進來這個溫管基金要做很多很多的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16303.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16319.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我就是想要問部長這個溫管基金的分配還有它的用途誰可以參與決定為什麼我很關心因為我們有參與棄遷法的修法把這個溫室管理辦法變成了棄遷法之後法條有寫得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16320.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16342.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
政府與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會之相關權益應與原住民族共享。所以呢我在這裡就是想要問一下部長您可不可以就是就您所知你們有沒有往這個利益共享的部分來去做一個這樣的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16344.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16359.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
謝謝委員的指教這個部分我們會來推動因為原住民是在氣候變遷裡面扮演一個很重要的角色但是這個怎麼做還有公正轉型這個部分的確是要委員到時候來給我們指教的這個利益共享的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16360.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16382.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我希望部長您可能要特別的來注意因為在這個部分包括未來這個審議他的機關學者專家代表原住民的代表我們希望說我們部長在推動這些碳會的計畫要重視原住民的權益跟參與希望我們有決策發言權也能夠參與這個很重要的這個邁向碳有價的時代精靈談判的時代好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16387.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16400.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
好,謝謝。謝謝委員的指教。我們會來做。好,謝謝主席。那也希望就是給我在一週內能夠就我剛剛所講的來做一個說明。好,謝謝部長。謝謝主席。好,謝謝吳立華委員。接下來請牛許廷委員發言。好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16417.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16419.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16432.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16458.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16459.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16475.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外喔,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16477.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16496.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
消防單位消防單位通報我們有一個平台這部長你知不知道如果發生這樣的事情喔這種嚴重的空氣污染嚴重的公害事件喔這我們可以依什麼樣的法規處於什麼樣的法環第一個是空污法喔空污法這種外洩各種的下面都有一個這種處罰的比例大概一小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16497.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16521.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16524.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16540.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。 可以,沒關係。 主管部長跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等,那個要再去判定。 再去判定對不對,所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到? |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16541.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16561.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16562.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16580.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
所以很有可能這個案子如果目前部裡面掌握的訊息是他其實是有通報的很有可能到最後他並沒有違反空氣污染防治法33條規定以至於橘色煙霧明明是硝酸捏然後造成大家的恐慌也好或者是實際上身體損害的時候很有可能到最後他可以全身而退有沒有可能發生這樣的事部長這個請 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16585.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16601.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。都是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16603.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16626.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16628.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16636.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
゚∀゚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16637.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16659.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16662.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16679.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16680.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16700.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
這500萬的被撤銷最後只能費金法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要科與相關責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16701.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16727.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16728.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16731.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16733.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16760.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16762.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16787.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊。做一些修正。比如說倉儲的大火。比如說這樣子一個公安的意外。造成的公害事件。有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理。當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加。但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16787.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16812.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
゚✧✧ |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16812.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16812.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
請環境部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16840.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16862.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
業務委員好我請教一下根據環境部的資料有無矮無實比有排量的你們有一份資料裡面我特意去看了一下前10名大概有7名都是電力供應業電力供應業大概佔了總排量大概佔了36.45%這個資料應該是正確的這是你們提供的前10名是電力業 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16868.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16873.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
請問一下電力供應業要繳碳費嗎?他要扣掉他給別人用的他自身的或是輸配電的他自己要付 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16885.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16904.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
他要付嗎?因為他也有產生二氧化碳,所以要付碳費。但是他的比例不高,大概7、8%左右。7、8%為什麼?怎麼算?這個我們有一套的算法。例如說台電他自己產生,台電大概1億噸的排碳量左右。可是他自己大概只有不到1000萬噸左右。那剩下的是誰付? |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16907.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16916.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
剩下是我們使用者使用者來付那為什麼台電他造成二氧化碳但是卻是使用者來付我就是使用者用了這個電用了這個碳排啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16917.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16922.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
當然啦那你如果一般工廠生產東西所製造出來的生產出來的碳費是由消費者來買單嗎?跟委員報告就是當時在討論氣候變遷因應法的時候那有關碳費的徵收那要對於電力的使用呢我們現在在當時立法院在討論的時候就是由這個使用的這個電力譬如說這些工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16937.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16956.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
因為他會用到電所以那個碳費就由這個工廠端來負擔而不是又由這個電力發電端不然的話如果兩邊都算的話就會重複計算但是一般的工一般的工廠如果他生產東西有排行二氧化碳的話是工廠負這個碳費還是終端消費者負這個碳費是工廠工廠嗎所以只有台電特別嗎台電是由消費者來負這個碳費嗎台電是負一部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16963.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16971.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
只有那個會被收到碳費的大工廠才會要負擔碳費。一般的中好企業、服務業、民生都不會收到碳費。 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16994.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17008.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
呃,他們其實會很努力啦,那目前我們估應該是5億以下吧吼。五億以下是不是?對對對。五億以下。好,沒關係。那個,那因為明年就非核家園啦,核電退出嘛。哦,那二氧化碳會增加嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17010.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17037.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
發電過程排放二氧化碳會增加嗎?因為目前我所掌握的數據我們的綠能的比例持續在往上走所以排蛋係數是逐步的往下走當中所以明年的非核價格以後因為綠能的增加所以台電要負擔碳費會減少你的意思是這樣嗎?台電的負擔的電費對你的意思是這樣嗎?基本上不會減太多不會減太多那到底是會減還是會增加還是不會減太多是減還是增? |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17040.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17066.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
應該還是會減少的。會減少?確定?你確定齁?好那我想問一下齁台電如果未來齁因為和能源配比的變化齁產生碳費不管是增加減少請問一下他是會轉嫁給消費者嗎?不會因為這個比例很低啦。比例很低?因為他不到5億啊。所以他不會因為這個理由要課增碳費之後就漲電價?不會齁?也不會造成也不會造成所謂的虧損嗎?不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17068.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17088.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
不會,那虧損是銀運的虧損?確定喔?銀運虧損當然是因為發電成本增加它就會造成銀運的虧損嘛我們現在講的是成本的部分嘛會不會因為碳費這個成本增加了所以它把電費轉嫁提高然後轉嫁給消費者有沒有可能造成這個狀況?不會因為它佔它的這個比例非常的低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17088.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17091.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17106.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17112.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17126.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17128.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17148.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17166.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
所以你們在預...那個維持700到900其實就是二氧化碳就是會排嘛所以你們在預估所謂的會不會增加碳費或者是碳排你不能夠只算它純粹它發電你應該要把它整個過程通話算進去嘛不是說綠能就完全沒有碳排嘛沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17166.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17191.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
很低,相對的很低很多。 這個也都要算進去啦,因為剛剛感覺好像部長這一塊沒有精算過。 沒有沒有,那個其實委員那個整個去碳燃清有他的這個算法的邏輯,像他最後目前我們看他們計畫到2028年只有5M的發電量。 我只是舉這個例子,就是說其實綠能它不是完全沒有碳排的,因為大家一般會以為說只要是綠能就沒有碳排,但其實不是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17192.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17193.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17208.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17208.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
檢測過程中檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17224.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17226.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
要三個月的時間欸? |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17226.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17253.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
不會不會,報告委員那個其實齁現在的這個人力有150個人左右15家公司我們有推算過每一個人的量能是多少因為每一個查驗大概一個人大概兩三天左右所以目前是夠但是唯一一個情況是說如果社會恐慌我每一個都要去做探盤查探驗證那就會不夠了所以基本上現在要做的就是例如說金管會要求我們要求還有供應鏈要求做就可以了其他中小企業不需要做好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17259.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17273.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
謝謝葉元之委員。接下來請劉建國委員。謝謝主席。有請部長。請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17277.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17292.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
欸 劉委員好部長好 部長辛苦齁部長應該很清楚嘛本身也是有氣象的這個專業嘛 對不對那之前露秋 臺灣露秋以後就是這麼多颱風現在有可能下午會再花布另外一個颱風嘛齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17294.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17322.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那相對於陰線我的母線還有其他全國臺灣的這些農業大線影響甚巨這幾天我一直也跟農業部農糧署還有農改廠一直去看到很多這些作物的這些損害而且非常嚴重蠻多還叫做延遲性的傷害剛發生的時候剛受到剛臺灣剛進來的時候還看不出他的受損狀況不過經過一二十天之後就慢慢的看到這個延遲性的傷害一直展現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17323.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17331.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
我是要請教部長又是氣象的專家會不會預估這一次的台灣會造成台灣又有什麼樣的一個損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17334.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17354.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
我已經沒有在做這個專業我專心做環境部的業務啦我沒有在算啦我沒有特別在看啦我回到民間我一定會給你這個資料的不過他底下剛剛一直笑的意思有點奇怪是不太相信部長的專業還是還是怎樣你們可以說給我聽我不會跟部長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17357.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17379.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
我要表達是這樣因為這個對農業的損害真的是甚巨部長可以再看一下11月份這個報導是這樣會有是台共這可能是非常的一個嚴重的狀況當然要部長馬上答我可能會造成整個農業的損害到什麼程度當然是有困難不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17380.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17396.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
不過我為什麼會這麼問是希望都透過你的專業也適時的因為我們經常對災害的部分是有跨部會來做這樣的一個整合跟支持然後也不只這樣今年有這11月4號的四台共舞 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17398.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17420.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
二零二一年台灣遇到的這個百年的大旱再往前推二零一六有霸王級的這個寒流齁這在在的這種極端氣候都造成環境還有農業的巨大的一個損害所以我才會希望可以透過位於存口方式來請教部長也希望部長對這種全球氣候異常的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17421.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17450.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
已經很難用過去的經驗詞去做判斷的狀況。那我們正在環境部的角度我們可以做到什麼程度來做一些預防。好,報告委員這個就是調試啦氣候變態調試的能力的建構所以環境部其實是調試的主管機關那目前各個縣市有在提調試的計畫那我們在審核當中也就是說這種我們會知道越來越嚴重可能以後會有癌症每個人那個生老病死但是要提早做準備所以我們環境部是扮演這個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17453.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17466.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
條4部長可以看以下資料這個是我們溫室氣體管理基金及收支管理保管及運用辦法就不再贅述最主要有部長講的第6點這個氣候變遷條4支協調研擬及推動事項還有相關的內容就不再贅述 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17472.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17480.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
那我要表達再請教部長就是說我們預估在明年開始2026啦有60億的這個碳匯來開徵嘛那我記得好像我看那個報導應該是10月17號的樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17487.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17508.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
我們本部長特別強調攤貨的目標是要以減碳為最有成效的來作為一個目標並幫助因應氣候變遷造成的弱勢例如可能會受到海水倒灌影響的嘉義或整個西南邊沿海地區你認為這些地區需要一些調適的方案攤貨應該可以提供幫助沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17509.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17510.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17525.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17530.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
2016是39億107是44億來到114年已經156億甚至於去年是129億這從39億一直到最高的這幾年的156億你可想而知這是倍數倍數倍數的一直在成長那台灣的農民怎麼有辦法承受這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17546.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17546.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
﹝廣告中﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17574.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17601.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
台灣的農業對台灣的農民或多或少有一些預註。報告委員基本上碳費要直接補助給農業是有點困難的那因為這個碳費有13個項目所以比較不用是農業但是呢其實那個我們現在是會督導每一個部會要做調試像農業部也要做他的調試所以農業部的調試呢他自己也會編他的一個經費但是如果說有一個調試是更明確更有效益的當然或許有一些部分就可以來進行補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17603.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17632.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
要有更明確嘛。要更明確。因為報告委員那個有時候喔。但是部長你的明確已經顯示在你10月17號的記者會已經講了嘛。對不對。好水道灌影響的嘉義或整個西南邊的沿海地區嘛。對。這個海水道灌一定影響的農業叫做漁業嘛。基本上就是漁業會苦辣。一定也是有影響嘛。還去道館。那所有苦辣的對不對。不管是粉牛仔啦。不管是蛤蜊啦。不管什麼的對不對。也一定會影響嘛。這個就符合你講的話。 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17633.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17655.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
゚≡≡≡ |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17655.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17683.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
對阿你就是補助海邊的提黃嘛可以拉高嘛對不對那海邊的提黃基本上主責大概是在經濟部嘛對不對在這個河川分屬嘛應該是這麼說嘛那你已經可以想到這樣了那當然對農業部分你是不是可以多加琢磨一些應該可以吧我是因你講的話來想出環境部可以在碳水的部分可以更周延的更周全的為台灣的農業跟農民做更多的挹注嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17684.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17710.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
應該是這樣,而且特別還想到最後一句話叫做並幫助因應氣候變遷造成的弱勢嘛,那絕對是農民,那絕對是騰的農業,應該是這樣。我說部長沒有辦法馬上答覆我啦,那是不是可以研擬一下,就像你剛才比喻的對針對這種細胃癌的提防,我們或多或少可以在探討的部分來做一些益助嘛,那相關的沿海的農業也應該可以比照這樣的比例來做支持嘛,好不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17711.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17730.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我們研究一下好不好好啦一個月了好不好好我們謝謝我們試看看謝謝這不能試啦我們研究一下研究之後就做啦好不好你就請到提防啦不然我覺得你對經濟部比較好啊你對農業部不好啊關於農業部預算比我們大十幾倍啊沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17730.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17758.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
沒有沒有沒有絕對沒有農委會之前平均才多少預算後來是升格變步之後才逐步的慢慢的調高起來對不對那你們現在以前是環保署啊現在叫環境部啊對啊你們預算如果比人家少那你們就漏氣了啊你知道我在問你一次你知道那個環保署變成環境部是誰的主責是要處理對啊對啊連家我那個也是我處理人家預算可以增加為什麼你預算不能增加對啊那下面的人就有問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17760.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17778.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
委員我們要加油啦,我們希望增加啦。好,謝謝了。好,謝謝委員。一個月。還有一個,一個很快的很快的,那個,不好意思啦。我們通常工廠看起來大廈嘛,這沒有你很清楚嘛。有。傳有酸氣外洩嘛,引起人到了恐慌,化學署的技術小組第一時間也趕到現場。然後, |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17781.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17805.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
我想這個獨化災絕對是近已截然最棘手的一個災害之一像我們雲林又是我的母縣石化工業園區然後我們更深知這個獨化災的危險性跟影響性所以我在委員會也特別拜託我們磁鐵環保署現在的獨化署建樹了在雲林六清又成立了一支叫這個麥寮環境事故專業技術小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17808.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17834.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
因為那個原本是有是在朵六但是從朵六趕到這個六千的十萬元區那個是要一個鐘頭環部計級的那我也特別感謝這個環境部跟我們獨化署可以做這樣來處理那也跟在地的這樣的零星的一個安撫來講就達到一定程度的這樣的效果那請教部長目前環境事故專業紀錄小組總共有幾對 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17836.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17856.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
現在有10對有10對嘛那我們希望擴增啦擴增啊為什麼要擴增因為其實有一些地方例如說東半部花蓮台東金門目前還沒有我們現在考慮那個地方先來設分店啦分隊好花蓮台東嘛齁對啊你們現在有多增加一對嘛就是要進駐東華東華大學花蓮的東華大學嘛對正在規劃當中對啊為什麼會花蓮多於一處然後要進到東華大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17863.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
17885.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
為什麼選擇這個地方?能不能簡單說明就好?就是0403那個花蓮地震導致東華大學的那個實驗室大火。對。那個非常嚴重嘛。延燒的相關的一些化學物質延燒24小時嘛。整個校舍是全毀嘛。所以我們今天才會...為什麼第一時間沒有我們的應變隊去做處理?為什麼沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
17891.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
17905.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
當時我們在這個花東的部分是委託那個以花蓮是中華紫江因為他也有聯防小組所以平常我們都委託他去處理但是這次因為地震應該說路線受阻結果他進不到裡面這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
17910.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
17925.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
您們不是要從宜蘭要派我們的應變小組過去嗎?那是北區。對。對,就是我們10隊的話,那是由我們去啦。對啊對啊對啊。但是在比較緊急的狀況,像花蓮這樣子的話,我們會有拜託,應該說有一個合作協定啦。對對。請那個聯防小組來幫忙。 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
17928.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
17947.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
那個聯邦小組也因為道路中斷嘛,地震嘛,對不對?道路坍塌嘛,所以那個小組一樣沒有辦法到東華大學直接去做相關的應變作為嘛,對不對?一樣道理嘛,你從宜蘭要調過來,道路還是一樣嘛,道路中斷都沒辦法處理嘛。那你們現在只有給花蓮。 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
17951.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
17969.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
花蓮設施要應付未來的花東嗎?是不是這樣?不是,我們台東跟金門都會同時來規劃。好,那這樣我就放心了啦。我們就是這樣講的,剛剛開始講的就願意籌謀嘛,不要重蹈覆轍。不然你像花蓮發生這個事情,再跌破再出力,藝人要丟軌也要用路。 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
17971.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
17971.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
謝謝劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
17988.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18004.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
接下來請何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在接下來請吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員不在接下來請鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18005.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18023.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
秋智惟委員 秋智惟委員 秋智惟委員不在張雅玲委員 張雅玲委員 張雅玲委員不在今天的會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀委員張雅玲所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18023.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18037.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
現在作以下決定及決議。報告說明及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18038.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18057.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算以及環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案另則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18142.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18145.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
關於我們當時被叫立法院處罰﹖我們當時有一個處罰 |