| IVOD_ID |
162582 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162582 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-18T10:22:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-18T10:43:17+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:21:02 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5617cf280bc2552a8b7aa084c3899b10086ae71f013336e0adf9c1769f7edb4799ca43a5534ac6bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:22:15 - 10:43:17 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【6月16日及18日兩天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席那因為前面有一堆民進黨的立委當庭告發我說要研辦我那我覺得研辦是我說的啦好 沒有關係沒有關係沒有關係研辦不是他們講的那我想我也不太適合今天自己可能成為個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
23.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
在民進黨口中所謂的犯罪嫌疑人的同時請部長來回答我個人成為犯罪嫌疑人相關的犯罪事實所以我想我前面就先表明一些立場以正視聽因為我如果不講什麼話的話好像以為前面那幾個民進黨立委站在這邊胡言亂語 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
78.066 |
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破壞台灣的法治精神啊而且呢不僅是破壞台灣的法治精神啊更是雙標自己啊我為什麼說雙標自己啊我上一次質詢的時候啊我就問我們的法務部部長啊2012年追緝二檢的事情今天台灣還有沒有發生從召委所接到的那些電話就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.335 |
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104.273 |
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這是個現在進行式當初為了追緝二檢的時候涉及到民進黨政治人物的貪污案不是播示範帶喔是播實際的硬訊光碟實際的硬訊光碟那時候的民進黨啊是群起鼓手叫好 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.712 |
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134.535 |
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司法就是要這樣被監督二點就是該被追緝當年的民進黨不僅沒有說違反法院組織法違反個人資料保護法還是全面站起來鼓掌叫好全部站起來鼓掌叫好奇怪了今天的民進黨拿到權力了以後完全變了嘴臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
165.374 |
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至於說我放了示範彈偽造文書啊我必須要說啊這大概是台灣法學的第一大發現啊我鼓勵啊檢察官馬上啟動偵探啊我準備拜讀啊你們的起訴處分書或不起訴處分書啊我黃國昌為了對抗二勢力啊又不是第一天被告到目前為止啊到目前為止啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
167.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
184.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
民進黨對我發動的誣告勝訴率是零啊上一個去台北地檢署前面告我的就許智傑啊他說 院會的時候不投票跑去找民進黨大佬無乃人吃香喝辣所以我講的不是事實只有許智傑去台北地檢署才按完零才按完零照片都出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
197.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
218.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我算是這個人啊財新人厚我還沒有去追加告發他誣告明明知道我講的是真的還跑去台北地檢署按鈴告我丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊沒有關係啊我最後只講一件事啊我希望民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
220.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
246.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
不要忘了以前追緝二減的理想好好跟台灣人民解釋為什麼我民進黨在野的時候涉及到民進黨政治人物的徵訊光碟全部都公開啊後來在行政院當政務委員的羅秉成還直接寫專文 出席記者會公開徵訊光碟有何不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
247.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
261.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如果民進黨今天早上發言的那幾位立委沒有受過基本的法律訓練的話我是建議可以去拜讀一下你們前政務委員羅秉成律師的文章 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
263.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
278.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好這個是前面啦程序上面因為我不要我自己的事情請官員上來嘛這樣不好我們現在就切入要質詢的政體來有請我們的法務部部長麻煩鄭部長警政署署長署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
289.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
310.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
可以了嗎 可以了齁可以 好 來第一個啊 王逸川啊之前用基地台訊號比對個人身份啊有沒有違反各執法通保法我知道部長的高度啦在這邊不會針對個案表示意見啦這個事情有沒有人告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
312.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
335.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個已經有告發 這個在北檢在偵辦中所以既然已經偵辦了 好 沒有關係那我們就持續偵辦下去我關心的是什麼 這是聯合報這麼大的篇幅 五月詐騙財損上升騙走國人將近九十億我們來看一下 今年二月有降下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
336.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
364.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
2月3月4月5月詐騙的案件數財產受損的金額不斷的上升這是國人關心的問題詐騙的被害人這麼多我們就非常的好奇我們政府打詐的具體的作為積極的打詐成效如何所以我在瀏覽我們相關打詐作為的時候來我看到的這一張照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
365.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
383.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
部長跟北檢的檢察長跑去扣案精品拍賣會啊擺拍作秀啊這個照片啊拍得還蠻好看的宣示打詐的決心部長知不知道你去的這個拍賣會他拍賣的精品是哪一個案件這個是一個假投資的一個詐騙案受損金額多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
390.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
417.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
受損金額的話 這部分我沒有統計奇怪 他們找你參加這麼重要的活動背景都沒有說明喔還是只要負責去拍照就好了這部分我想去做一個做什麼 去拍照這個已經新聞稿已經寫得很清楚啦對對對 所以我才問你嘛你有沒有真的關心這個案子嘛你有沒有關心打炸嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
418.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
437.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
還是只會負責去拍照作秀嘛 這個是我的問題嘛這個就是一個贊同 就是因為這件就是一個宣誓 這些罰扣的不罰所得非常好 宣誓不罰所得所以我才問你嘛 這個案件 被詐欺的金額有多高你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
442.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
460.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這部分我回去再查30億不用查啦 Google一下就有啊全台灣人都知道了啦50億啊50億啊被詐騙的金額50億啊就幾十億嘛偵辦的過程我都如列出來啦查扣了不罰所得有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
462.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
489.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
法務部的所得就是這名牌包還有一些的虛擬貨幣那這部分因為個案這部分我沒辦法去記那麼詳細不會啦 都已經起訴啦對起訴 但是我想這是一個態度的問題我要講的重點是什麼這個就是你們法務部放出來的新聞來 部長看一下張款買精品LV香奈兒拍賣不罰所得追回10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
491.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
513.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個是真新聞還是假訊息這就是一個統計的數字的成果的一個標準我跟副長報告回去看一下起訴書這個案子已經甄決起訴了起訴書上面寫得很清楚真正的兩千一百萬沒有十億 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
514.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
533.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
沒有10億怎麼會沒有10億呢沒有10億你要不要跟我打賭有沒有10億我就直接跟你講沒有10億這個拍賣本來就是彰顯我們就是要是是是所以你拍賣賣了10億嗎想有這些不乏所得嘛對對對所以你查扣了多少不乏所得我回到我最原始的問題嘛剛剛部長說怎麼會沒有10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
535.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
550.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以你認為有10億拍賣者拍賣的金額這個不是彰顯就是說所以有拍賣10億喔這是我們就是查扣的這些的不法所得所以有賣10億嗎當然不可能說賣10億因為我們查扣的那麼多嘛所以你剛剛為什麼說怎麼沒有10億這個怎麼會沒有10億呢沒有10億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
554.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
580.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我現在就跟你講沒有實益所以我才拿出來質詢嘛如果有實益然後我現在還在問說怎麼會有實益那我這質詢不是沒意義嗎我清楚的跟你講啦我跟你講你說的實益怎麼沒有實際上的一些的效益呢怎麼會沒有呢你追回實益來看一下你查扣了不乏所得有實益你到現在還在拗喔我沒有在拗你是你自己沒有關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
581.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
605.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你不用想要把你的話塞到我的嘴巴我怎麼問的你怎麼答的所有的公民透過公開透明的直播大家都可以回去看好好的核對看我剛剛問的問題跟你回答的問題到底是誰在胡扯我直接跟你講重點啦我直接跟你講重點啦第一個這個案子我們的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
609.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
622.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
破大案了以後 浩大喜功拍照很會真的有關心被害人嗎真的有關心犯罪查緝的結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
623.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
629.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
然後放消息給媒體不好意思 現在是我講話的時間趙偉 請你可以制止他嗎我都得一個查詢的一個專案然後源頭的行政的一個管理現在是連趙偉在指揮會議部長都不管了嗎這個是司法法制委員會的規矩嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
645.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
671.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
趙偉剛剛我問問題我也給他回答現在我要誠懇的跟他講我觀察到的現象怎麼部長急成像熱鍋上的螞蟻不斷的插嘴啊可以讓我把話講完嗎這是我的質詢時間欸麻煩部長尊重一下委員在法務部要事後開記者會發新聞稿我都沒意見啊我為什麼拿這個案子出來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
672.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
692.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
浩大喜功 拍照 擺拍 打詐有成效結果勒 放給媒體 說追回十億我跟部長講兩件重要的資訊第一個 根本沒有十億連一億都沒有 連一億都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
693.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
723.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果我講錯我拜託已經貞節起訴的台北地檢署檢察官今天馬上發新聞稿駁斥我我絕對不會掌握錯誤的因為你知道嗎早在你們在處理這個案子以前這個案子我幫了多少忙我只是沒有公開講第二個第二個讓我覺得很詫異的事情是說奇怪在這個案子裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
724.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
747.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是有查到黑道是有查到黑道怎麼查到黑道的時候像拒見法一樣那個部分就沒有了今天我也是公開提供情資啊公開提供情資啊給我們偵辦犯罪啊的檢察官理解來看一下這個是祖賢羅佩文的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
749.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
777.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這是祖賢羅佩文的照片這張照片檢察官有沒有我不知道但這張照片是出現在什麼地方出現他跟鄭純俊以及其他黑道分子在聚會的場所這是現場照我黃國昌講話向來有憑有據這就是他們跟黑道分子混在一起的現場照在查金流的時候奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
778.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
789.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
怎麼沒有去進一步追查黑道的金流這件事情我今天在這邊公開提供情資給台北地檢署的檢察官做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
809.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
837.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
說你都不是很了解 現在又裝得好像說有啦 我們黑道的部分有在辦 沒關係啊我拭目以待啊 看你們辦什麼東西出來啊好 委員今天的意見 我們寶貴的意見 我們會轉給那個幫你來做訪問好了下一個問題 我上一次質詢的時候我直接檢舉法務部調查局的調查官拿密錄器去操商偷拍未成年子女 女孩子的裙底 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
839.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
856.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
然後我說你們有沒有處理那次備詢的時候跟我說沒有處理來現在處理的狀況如何這個調查局在做一個一個一個他們考機會你作為啊調查局上面的大家長法務部部長你認為這應該有什麼懲處這個什麼懲處這要開會是是是作為部長啦以對調查員 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
865.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
885.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
的標準你認為一個調查員去偷拍未成年子女的群體應該受到什麼樣的處分這個就依法 依法該怎麼處理嘛全部講空話你有沒有部長基本的態度你有沒有部長基本的態度你認為應該受到什麼處分我就是依法處理嘛依法來該怎麼做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
886.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
912.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
該行政處理的行政處理行政懲處嘛該送應該要送什麼樣的行政懲處那如果說在如果該有涉及行政那就依法依法偵辦嘛應該要做什麼行政懲處這部分我沒辦法跟你講這是有要尊重調查局考機會的一個決定嘛是所以你沒有態度沒有立場嗎為什麼沒有態度沒有立場我現在講就是我態度我要尊重而且我認為的態度就是說這個這個此風不可漲這個我有一些此風不可漲嘛對啊這個該要不要嚴懲 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
913.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
940.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個肝炎症就是由調查局他們作為機會嘛你不用急啦我沒有急啊因為我看你回答問題的態度跟內容你顯然搞不清楚狀況我沒有搞不清楚狀況你不要再給我貼書我現在就直接告訴你我這個不處理這個個案的問題嘛現在我就直接跟你講我質詢的point嘛每一個案子我只要把它拉到檯面上面來我一定做後續追蹤啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
940.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
968.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
最後的調查局考紀會給他的懲處一大過一大過現在還在原職這個結果出來了以後我去問非常多調查局基層的同仁我接下來講的是基層同仁的心聲大家都覺得除了這種令人髮指的事情這一大過目前還在原單位繼續任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
970.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
997.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
沒有任何的調子現在是要告訴台灣人民什麼我們給我們這麼敬重的調查官我們的標準是這樣這個是民進黨政府的性平觀念一大過還在原單位動都沒動我問了一堆人你們可以接受嗎沒有人可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
998.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1027.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
大家都覺得讓調查局蒙城丟臉那天調查局局長派人來回覆我追的問題的時候我已經清楚的告訴調查局如果你們是這樣子輕輕放下的話會讓人對調查局的標準完全沒辦法苟同也會讓大家對於民進黨政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1028.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1054.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所謂的性平價值產生嚴重的懷疑再下一個上一次我說連政署可以洩露吹哨者的身份嗎搞了半天來請警政署署長委員好你知道最後的處分是什麼嗎寄了聖劍你覺得這個是在彰顯民進黨政府保護吹哨者的價值嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1056.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1078.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
洩露吹哨者的紛紛記憶之深切不痛不癢委員這個就是在處理的過程當中有的審判單位的文書上的疏失文書上的疏失問題是什麼原單位的人不就知道是誰投訴嗎跟委員報告就是說這個陳情的狀況我們就是有回覆陳情影的一個結果是這個結果是由誰回覆的是由處理單位的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1085.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1112.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就是處理他的單位嘛我跟委員報告以後我們有精進的空間啦這是未來我們這樣叫有精進的空間我請教一下署長你知不知道我們已經三讀通過吹哨者保護法還沒有開始施行嘛那你知不知道依照吹哨者保護法洩漏吹哨人的身份要科育什麼處罰有一些是有刑事責任的那我就直接放給你看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1113.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1134.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
現在是還沒有施行啦 是還沒有施行以前 民進黨政府一直說我們很重視吹哨者的保護啊法案還沒過 我們現在就在做啦做得很認真啦這個叫做得很認真喔蛤 洩露吹哨者的身份 太可惡了深切一次這個叫保護吹哨者署長你自己可以接受嗎我們會再做精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1143.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1171.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
要怎麼進去我們現在已經對於這個法的還是說下一次再發生的時候大家就有樣學樣嘛在機關內部我們不是要求平等原則公平原則嗎為什麼他洩漏一枝深切你要重懲我到底在哪裡我看不下去啦我會在這邊公開質詢就是我看不下去啦包括那個調查員的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1172.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1198.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
包括這個洩漏吹哨者身份的案子我敢在這邊公開質詢把我的標準講得很清楚我也要接受公民的檢驗嘛如果一般的台灣人民說黃國昌講話沒道理洩漏吹哨者的身份一隻身鑒很嚴重了要不然你還要怎麼樣那當然是我理虧嘛但是我不認為如此啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1200.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1221.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
洩露吹哨者的身份一隻生戒這是在開玩笑這叫做保護吹哨者署長你聽得下去喔你認為這是警政署保護吹哨者的態度嗎還是以後跟警政署前舉的大家小心喔你的身份被洩露按照警政署的標準就是一隻生戒就了事了是這樣嗎 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1223.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1239.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
黃委員這個是沒有要洩漏他的這個意思這個是他處理文書的一個現實上面不就洩漏了你讓處理他的單位回覆他那處理他的單位不就知道他是誰這不是洩漏什麼是洩漏我有說錯嗎署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1243.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1257.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
未來我們處理的這個方式應該是不會做這樣的一個處理這個案子之前就說不會啦阿發生了以後怎麼辦記憶之深界在搞笑喔在搞笑喔OK好謝謝 |
| gazette.lineno |
414 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（10時22分）謝謝主席，因為前面有一堆民進黨的立委當庭告發我，說要嚴辦我，我覺得…… |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：嚴辦是我說的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃委員國昌：沒有關係、沒有關係、沒有關係。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
主席：嚴辦不是他們講的。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃委員國昌：我想我也不太適合在今天自己可能成為個案，在民進黨口中所謂的犯罪嫌疑人的同時，請部長來回答我個人成為犯罪嫌疑人相關的犯罪事實，所以我想我前面就先表明一些立場，以正視聽，因為我如果不講什麼話的話，好像以為前面那幾個民進黨立委站在這邊胡言亂語，破壞臺灣的法治精神，而且不僅是破壞臺灣的法治精神，更是雙標至極，我為什麼說雙標至極？我上一次質詢的時候，我就問法務部部長2012年追緝惡檢的事情，今天臺灣還有沒有發生？從召委接到的那些電話就知道這是個現在進行式，當初為了追緝惡檢的時候，涉及到民進黨政治人物的貪污案，不是播示範帶哦！是播實際的應訊光碟，那時候的民進黨是群起鼓掌叫好，司法就是要這樣被監督，惡檢就是該被追緝，當年的民進黨不僅沒有說違反法院組織法、違反個人資料保護法，還是全面站起來鼓掌叫好。奇怪了！今天的民進黨拿到權力了以後完全變了嘴臉。至於說我放了示範帶，涉及偽造文書，我必須要說，這大概是臺灣法學的第一大發現，我鼓勵檢察官馬上啟動偵辦，我準備拜讀你們的起訴處分書或不起訴處分書，我黃國昌為了對抗惡勢力，又不是第一天被告，到目前為止，民進黨對我發動的誣告勝訴率是零！上一個去臺北地檢署前面告我的就是許智傑，他說，院會的時候不投票，跑去找民進黨大老吳乃仁吃香喝辣，說我講的不是事實，結果許智傑去臺北地檢署才按完鈴，照片都出來了，我算是宅心仁厚，還沒有去追加告發他誣告，明明知道我講的是真的，還跑去臺北地檢署按鈴告我，丟人現眼！丟人現眼！沒有關係，我最後只講一件事，我希望民進黨不要忘了以前追緝惡檢的理想，好好跟臺灣人民解釋，為什麼民進黨在野的時候，涉及到民進黨政治人物的偵訊光碟全部都公開？後來在行政院當政務委員的羅秉成還直接寫專文、出席記者會，公開偵訊光碟有何不可？如果民進黨今天早上發言的那幾位立委沒有受過基本的法律訓練的話，我建議可以去拜讀一下你們前政務委員羅秉成律師的文章。這個是前面程序上的部分，因為我不要為了我自己的事情請官員上來，這樣不好，所以我們現在就切入要質詢的正題，有請我們的法務部部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
主席：麻煩鄭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃委員國昌：警政署署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
主席：署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
黃委員國昌：第一個，王義川之前用基地臺訊號比對個人身分有沒有違反個資法、通保法？我知道部長的高度，在這邊不會針對個案表示意見，這個事情有沒有人告發？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個已經有人告發，北檢在…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
黃委員國昌：偵辦當中？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：偵辦中，既然已經偵辦了，我就…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，那我們就持續偵辦下去。我關心的是什麼？這個是聯合報的報導，這麼大的篇幅，5月詐騙財損上升，騙走國人將近90億。我們來看一下，今年2月有降下來，2月、3月、4月、5月的詐騙案件數、財產受損的金額不斷的上升，這是國人關心的問題，詐騙的被害人這麼多，我們就非常好奇政府打詐的具體作為、積極的打詐成效如何？我在瀏覽我們相關打詐作為的時候看到這張照片，部長跟北檢的檢察長跑去扣案精品拍賣會擺拍作秀，這個照片拍得還滿好看的，宣示打詐的決心。部長知不知道你去的這個拍賣會拍賣的精品是哪一個案件？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這是一個假投資的詐騙案。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
黃委員國昌：受損金額多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：受損金額這部分我沒有統計…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
黃委員國昌：奇怪，他們找你參加這麼重要的活動，背景都沒有說明？還是只要負責去拍照就好了？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這部分我想去做一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
黃委員國昌：做什麼？去拍照？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員，這個新聞稿已經寫得很清楚啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
黃委員國昌：對、對、對，所以我才問你嘛，你有沒有真的關心這個案子？你有沒有關心打詐？還是只會負責去拍照作秀？這就是我的問題嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員，你不能這樣講喔！這個就是一個贊同……因為這就是一個宣示…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
黃委員國昌：宣示什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這些查扣的不法所得……還給被害人。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
黃委員國昌：非常好，宣示不法所得，所以我才問你這個案件被詐欺的金額有多高，你知不知道？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這部分我回去再查，30億…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
黃委員國昌：不用查啦，google一下就有了，全臺灣人都知道了啦，50億，被詐騙的金額50億。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：就幾十億。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
黃委員國昌：偵辦的過程我都臚列出來了，查扣的不法所得有多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：查扣的不法所得就是這些名牌包還有一些虛擬貨幣，個案這部分我沒辦法記那麼詳細，但我想…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
黃委員國昌：不會啊！都已經起訴啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：對，都已經起訴了，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
黃委員國昌：新聞都出來了。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我想這是態度問題嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
黃委員國昌：我要講的重點是什麼？這個就是你們法務部放出來的新聞，部長看一下，贓款買精品！LV、香奈兒拍賣，不法所得追回10億。這個是真新聞還是假訊息？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這就是一個統計的數字、成果的表現。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
黃委員國昌：OK，好。我跟部長報告，回去看一下起訴書，這個案子已經偵結起訴了，起訴書上面寫得很清楚，真正寫的是2,100萬，沒有10億。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：怎麼會沒有10億呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
黃委員國昌：沒有10億，你要不要跟我打賭有沒有10億？我就直接跟你講沒有10億！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個拍賣本來就是彰顯…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
黃委員國昌：是，所以你拍賣賣了10億嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我們就是不能讓那些被告享有這些不法所得嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
黃委員國昌：對，所以你查扣了多少不法所得？我回到我最原始的問題，剛剛部長說怎麼會沒有10億，所以你認為有10億？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：拍賣的金額，這個不是彰顯……就是說這個拍賣…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以有拍賣10億？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這是我們查扣的這些不法所得。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以有賣10億嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：當然不可能說賣10億，因為我們查扣那麼多…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以剛剛為什麼說怎麼沒有10億？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個怎麼沒有10億呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
黃委員國昌：沒有10億啊！我現在就跟你講沒有10億，所以我才拿出來質詢嘛！如果有10億，我現在還在問怎麼會有10億，那我這個質詢不是沒意義嗎？我清楚的跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我跟你講，你說沒有10億，怎麼沒有實際上的一些效益呢？怎麼會沒有呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
黃委員國昌：「已追回10億」，我們來看一下，你查扣的不法所得有10億？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我沒有講10億…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
黃委員國昌：你到現在還在拗喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在拗，是你自己…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，你不用想要把你的話塞到我的嘴巴，我怎麼問的，你怎麼答的，所有公民透過公開透明的直播，大家都可以回去看，好好的核對，看我剛剛問的問題，跟你回答的問題，到底是誰在胡扯，我直接跟你講重點啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在胡扯喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
黃委員國昌：我直接跟你講重點啦！第一個，這個案子，我們的官員破大案了以後，好大喜功，拍照很會，真的有關心被害人嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：若沒有關心被害人，為什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
黃委員國昌：真的有關心犯罪查緝的結果嗎？然後放消息給媒體…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：如果沒有的話，我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
黃委員國昌：不好意思，現在是我講話的時間。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：成立打詐國家隊…… |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
黃委員國昌：召委，請你可以制止他嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：為什麼我們要做很多查緝的專案…… |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
主席：部長、部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：然後是源頭的行政管理…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
主席：部長，可不可以就是說…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
黃委員國昌：現在是連召委在指揮會議，部長都不管了嗎？這個是司法及法制委員會的規矩嗎？召委，剛剛我問問題，我也給他回答，現在我要誠懇的跟他講我觀察到的現象，怎麼部長急成像熱鍋上的螞蟻，不斷的插嘴？可以讓我把話講完嗎？這是我的質詢時間欸！ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
主席：麻煩部長尊重一下委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
黃委員國昌：法務部要事後開記者會、發新聞稿，我都沒意見，我為什麼拿這個案子出來講？好大喜功、拍照、擺拍、打詐有成效，結果呢？放給媒體說追回10億，我跟部長講兩件重要的資訊，第一個，根本沒有10億，連1億都沒有，如果我講錯，我拜託已經偵結起訴的臺北地檢署檢察官今天馬上發新聞稿駁斥我，我絕對不會掌握錯誤的，因為你知道嗎？早在你們處理這個案子以前，這個案子我幫了多少忙？我只是沒有公開講。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][1] |
第二個，讓我覺得很詫異的事情是，奇怪，在這個案子裡面有查到黑道，怎麼查到黑道的時候像鋸箭法一樣，那個部分就沒有了？今天我也是公開提供情資給我們偵辦犯罪的檢察官理解。請看一下，這是主嫌羅佩雯的照片，這張照片檢察官有沒有我不知道，但這張照片是出現在什麼地方？出現他跟鄭淳駿以及其他黑道分子聚會的場所，這是現場照。我黃國昌講話向來有憑有據，這就是他們跟黑道分子混在一起的現場照，在查金流的時候，奇怪了！怎麼沒有進一步去追查黑道的金流？這件事情我今天在這邊公開提供情資給臺北地檢署檢察官參考。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員，這個案件不就辦了嗎？而且辦的成果豐碩啊！也繩之以法，也羈押了，也判了…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
黃委員國昌：對啦！所以嘛，就按照你講的叫豐碩嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：那你怎麼可以針對北檢辦案團隊的成果…… |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
黃委員國昌：現在我問的是黑道的部分有沒有辦？黑道的部分有沒有辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：你怎麼知道沒有辦？我想北檢辦案團隊已經…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
黃委員國昌：剛開始說你都不是很了解，現在又裝得好像說有啦！黑道的部分我們有在辦，沒關係啦！我拭目以待啊！看你們辦什麼東西出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：報告委員，今天給我們的寶貴意見，我們會轉給…… |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
黃委員國昌：很好！下一個問題，我上一次質詢的時候，我直接檢舉法務部調查局調查官拿密錄器去超商偷拍未成年女子的裙底，我問你們有沒有處理，那次備詢的時候跟我說沒有處理。來，現在處理的狀況如何？ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個調查局考紀會他們在做一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
黃委員國昌：你作為調查局上面的大家長，法務部部長，你認為這應該有什麼懲處？ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個什麼懲處要開會來…… |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
黃委員國昌：是，作為部長，你對於調查員的標準，你認為一個調查員去偷拍未成年女子的裙底，應該受到什麼樣的處分？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個就依法該怎麼處理就依法怎麼處理嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
黃委員國昌：是嘛！全部講空話，你有沒有部長基本的態度？你有沒有部長基本的態度？你認為應該受到什麼處分？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：就是依法處理嘛！依法該怎麼做、該行政處理的就行政懲處嘛，該送…… |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
黃委員國昌：應該要受什麼樣的行政懲處？ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：如果有涉及刑責，那就依法偵辦嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
黃委員國昌：應該要做什麼行政懲處？ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這部分我沒辦法跟你講，這要尊重調查局考紀會的決定嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
黃委員國昌：是，所以你沒有態度、沒有立場？ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我什麼沒有態度、沒有立場？我這樣講就是我的態度，我要尊重，而且我認為的態度就是此風不可長，這個我有…… |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
黃委員國昌：此風不可長嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
黃委員國昌：要不要嚴懲？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：該嚴懲就是由調查局他們的考紀會…… |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
黃委員國昌：是，你不用急啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我沒有急。 |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
黃委員國昌：因為我看你回答問題的態度跟內容，你顯然搞不清楚狀況，我現在直接…… |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我沒有搞不清楚狀況，你不要再給我貼我搞不清楚狀況。我只跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
黃委員國昌：我現在就直接告訴你我質詢的point。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：不講個案的問題，我是就…… |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
黃委員國昌：我就直接跟你講我質詢的point，每一個案子我只要把它拉到檯面上來，我一定做後續追蹤啦！最後調查局考紀會給他的懲處是一大過，現在還在原職。這個結果出來了以後，我去問非常多調查局基層的同仁，我接下來講的是基層同仁的心聲，大家都覺得出了這種令人髮指的事情，記一大過，目前還在原單位繼續任職，沒有任何的調職，現在是要告訴臺灣人民什麼？我們給這麼敬重的調查官的標準是這樣喔？這個是民進黨政府的性平觀念，一大過，還在原單位，動都沒動！我問了一堆人，你們可以接受嗎？沒有人可以接受，大家都覺得讓調查局蒙塵、丟臉！那天調查局局長派人來回復我追的問題的時候，我已經清楚的告訴調查局，如果你們是這樣子輕輕放下的話，會讓人對調查局的標準完全沒辦法苟同，也會讓大家對於民進黨政府所謂的性平價值產生嚴重的懷疑！ |
| gazette.blocks[104][1] |
再下一個，上一次我說廉政署可以洩漏吹哨者的身分嗎？搞了半天，來，請警政署署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
張署長榮興：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
黃委員國昌：你知道最後的處分是什麼嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
張署長榮興：記了申誡。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
黃委員國昌：你覺得這個是在彰顯民進黨政府保護吹哨者的價值嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
張署長榮興：委員，這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
黃委員國昌：洩漏吹哨者的身分記一支申誡？不痛不癢！ |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
張署長榮興：委員，這個就是在處理的過程當中有的…… |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
黃委員國昌：疏失？ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
張署長榮興：承辦單位一個文書上的疏失。 |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
黃委員國昌：文書上的疏失，問題是什麼？原單位的人不就知道是誰投訴嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
張署長榮興：跟委員報告，陳情的狀況就是我們有回復陳情人的一個結果。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
黃委員國昌：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
張署長榮興：這個結果我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
黃委員國昌：是由誰回復的？ |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
張署長榮興：是由處理單位的…… |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
黃委員國昌：對嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
張署長榮興：我覺得…… |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
黃委員國昌：就是處理他的單位嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
張署長榮興：我跟委員報告，以後我們有精進的空間，未來我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
黃委員國昌：這樣叫有精進的空間？來，我請教一下署長，你知不知道我們已經三讀通過吹哨者保護法？ |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
張署長榮興：知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
黃委員國昌：還沒有開始施行嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
張署長榮興：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，那你知不知道依照吹哨者保護法，洩漏吹哨人的身分要科以什麼處罰？ |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
張署長榮興：有一些是有刑事責任的。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
黃委員國昌：我就直接放給你看，現在是還沒有施行。 |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
張署長榮興：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
黃委員國昌：還沒有施行以前，民進黨政府一直說我們很重視吹哨者的保護，法還沒過現在就在做啦！做得很認真啦！這個叫做得很認真喔？洩漏吹哨者的身分，太可惡了！申誡一次！這個叫保護吹哨者？署長，你自己可以接受嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
張署長榮興：我們會再精進。 |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
黃委員國昌：要怎麼精進？ |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
張署長榮興：我們現在已經對於這個法的通過…… |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
黃委員國昌：還是說下一次再發生的時候，大家就有樣學樣，在機關內部我們不是要求平等原則、公平原則嗎？為什麼他洩漏只有一支申誡，你卻要重懲我？道理在哪裡？我看不下去啦！我會在這邊公開質詢就是我看不下去啦！包括那個調查員的案子，包括這個洩漏吹哨者身分的案子。我敢在這邊公開質詢，把我的標準講得很清楚，我也要接受公民的檢驗，如果一般的臺灣人民說黃國昌講話沒道理，洩漏吹哨者的身分一支申誡很嚴重了，要不然你還要怎麼樣？那當然是我理虧嘛！但是我不認為如此啊！洩漏吹哨者的身分一支申誡，這是在開玩笑喔？這叫做保護吹哨者？署長，你聽得下去喔？你認為這是警政署保護吹哨者的態度嗎？還是以後跟警政署檢舉的大家小心喔，你的身分被洩漏，按照警政署的標準就是一支申誡就了事了，是這樣嗎？署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
張署長榮興：報告委員，這個並沒有要洩漏的意思，這個是在處理文書的一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
黃委員國昌：現實上面不就洩漏了？你讓處理他的單位回復他，那處理他的單位不就知道他是誰，這不是洩漏，什麼是洩漏？我有說錯嗎？署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
張署長榮興：未來我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
黃委員國昌：我有說錯嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
張署長榮興：未來我們處理的方式應該不會做這樣的處理，就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
黃委員國昌：這個案子之前就說不會啦！發生了以後怎麼辦？記一支申誡，在搞笑喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
主席：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[143][1] |
下一位請沈發惠委員發言。 |
| gazette.blocks[143][2] |
我們現在順便作會議宣告：待會在莊瑞雄委員詢答完畢之後休息5分鐘。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
432 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-3-36-20 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
王義川 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
張雅琳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
355 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-06-18 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1146101 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1146101_00008 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部
警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年
新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置
輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及
《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報
告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1146101_00007 |