| IVOD_ID |
16249 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16249 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024110659 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-11T08:31:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-11T12:48:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:16:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc8be0a0888e7d7104b761654f0ebe352dedb79b8bfb08e7996da4f69e6c8a8bc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:15 - 12:48:00 |
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現在開會今天我們舉行稅務行政事件審理法草案的公聽會首先來介紹出席的學者專家按照我們簽到的順序介紹第一位是東吳大學法學院暨法律學系我們的范文清第二位是社團法人中華人權協會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1795.195 |
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1816.577 |
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負稅人權委員會蔡晉梅主任委員歡迎您第3位是東吳大學法學院暨法律學系陳清秀陳教授歡迎您第4位是全國律師聯合會稅法委員會蔡草安主任委員歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1818.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1833.55 |
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第5位是智慧財產及商業法院我們的汪漢清 汪庭長歡迎您第6位是我們中華民國會計師公會全國聯合會稅制稅務委員會的陳世陽陳顧問歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1840.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1868.802 |
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好那再來我們藉著介紹列席的政府機關代表我們歡迎司法院副秘書長黃玲倫黃副秘書長歡迎您好那其他的包括有行政訴訟及懲戒廳的陳怡怡廳長歡迎您以及財政部負稅署陳惠啟副署長歡迎您以及官務署陳文玲陳組長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1870.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1899.386 |
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以及法制處的吳慧琦 吳科長 歡迎您以及臺北國稅局檢任機和陳輝郎 陳檢機還有我們法務部的參事 廖江憲 廖參事 歡迎您以及經濟部國際貿易署主任秘書 戴婉容 戴祖密 歡迎您以及社會財產局的林希燕 林主任秘書 歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1902.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1902.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請議事人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1915.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1943.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
討論提綱一稅務行政事件審理法要解決的是現行制度下的哪些問題二所創設對民眾加課的協力義務與人民既有的人權保障有何衝突三徵社稅務審查官是否向稅務行政機關傾斜致人民處境更為不利四稅務行政事件審理法與納稅者權利保護法適用對民眾產生何種不同的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1944.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1973.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
兩者的競合會不會置私欲焚宣讀完畢好謝謝我們繼續補充介紹剛到場的包括有國立台灣大學法律學院陳衍任陳助理教授歡迎您以及國立中正大學財經法律學系的黃俊傑黃教授歡迎您以及國立成功大學法律學系的陳文晶陳副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1982.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1995.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在邀請各位發言之前,有幾點說明首先,請學者專家先發言,發言順序依照簽到先後順序如果需要提前發言,請先告知主席台,我們會視情況作為調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1998.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2022.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本院委員按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場本席會穿插安排請委員發言最後再請政府機關代表發言針對學者專家及委員的意見加以回應與會者請至發言臺發言在主席右手邊為學者專家列席機關代表的發言臺在我的左手邊則為委員的發言臺由於公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2026.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2050.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主要是聽取學者專家各界意見所以每位學者專家發言時間為10分鐘本院委員發言時間為5分鐘那必要的時候我們會再開放第二輪的發言與回應好那首先我們請學者專家發言那依序請第一位我們第一位就請范文清范副教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2061.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2066.692 |
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主席中委員還有在座的各位學者專家然後這個各位先進大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2067.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2091.689 |
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我今天針對新擬聚的稅務行政事件審理法草案提供一點我個人的淺見供各位著參首先大家都知道稅務案件在行政法院裡面訴訟案件的數量非常多佔到差不多五成左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2092.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2093.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2114.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2115.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本法可以從兩個方向來觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2141.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2167.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
行政訴訟的一個特別法也就是說行政訴訟裡面針對稅務案件的一個特別法那另外一個角度是他就是針對稅法的一些特性所制定的這個特別的規則那從他是行政訴訟的特別法來說裡面有幾個條文我覺得都很好比方說第8條應該是以行政處分原處分為徵訟對象然後第6條要求這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2171.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2172.329 |
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委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2196.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2215.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
若針對後續處分不符,則針對基礎處分原則上是不可以不符的原則上當然有例外規定等等的這些我就不一一細數這些規定大體上我覺得都會一定程度上有助於草案本身所希望解決的萬年稅單 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2217.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2217.618 |
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主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2232.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2233.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2250.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2278.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
當事人跟第三人要合一確定那今天的那個前階段的行政組份的那個行政機關一定會跟本案的這個科稅有合一確定的必要嗎如果沒有合一確定的必要我們只是為了像草案裡面那個說明裡面是要提供專業意見那我想這個要合一確這個可能沒有必要搞到參加這是第一件事情第二件事情在那個第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2280.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2307.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
12條以下可能是我個人對於本草案最有疑慮的地方也就是說首先12條這邊規定說當事人有協力義務11條規定有協力義務這個我當然完全同意可是12條這邊規定說當事人或者是受當事人委託的第三人然後如果他拿到資料應該要提出這當然也沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2308.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2327.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不過他第三項他提到說如果不提出的話要強制處分那我覺得這可能就有一點過頭了這也就是說我如果不提出那這個行政這個依據這個立法理由的說明他說他可以動用那個這個強制處分那如果是這樣的話這會不會有點太過我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2328.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2345.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我請你提出資料 證據資料 然後你不提出 那我就讓你敗訴就好了嘛那我動用到這個強制處分 逼你提出 強制你提出這會不會有一點點違背比例原則啊這個是不是有必要思考一下然後呢 13條這邊提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2348.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2374.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
13條提到說當事人有必要到場我當然完全同意當事人當然原則上有必要到場可是一方面後面提到說當事人強制律師代理大部分的情況下強制律師代理那當事人還必須要到場嗎這是第一還必須一定要到場嗎這是第一第二當事人如果不到場根據這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2376.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2376.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2393.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2393.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第14條 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2410.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2436.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
當事人不能拒絕履行協力義務哪怕是他有因為提出這些證據資料有受刑事訴追的危險他也不能拒絕提出這些證據資料這個我想可能就稍微有點過頭了這個恐怕跟不治正己罪的要求是有違背的所以我是覺得這樣的一個條文可能是有一點點過頭然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2440.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2455.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個草案裡面提到說這個條文是仿照德國租稅通責103條但是如果看一下德國租稅通責103條那是針對非當事人非當事人他才可以拿出他才可以拒絕證言當事人這個你還要給他罰還這可能有一點點過頭了再來是在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2467.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2493.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
二十六條的地方二十六條他說法院可以推計科稅我當然完全同意法院當然可以推計科稅因為稅這個案子稅的這種特性就是如果你沒有拿出足夠的證據資料我沒有辦法足夠清楚的去計算那個稅額我當然也就有很大的可能性必須要用推估的方法來科稅以現行的條文來說所得稅法83條就有那樣的規定不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2496.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2514.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
推計課稅的前提曾如納稅者權利保護法裡面所提到的推計課稅的前提是當事人違背了他的協力義務也就是說我不提出或我沒有完整的提出然後讓稅務機關沒有辦法完整的審查然後我再來推計課稅好 如果是這個樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2516.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2529.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
26條好像看不出來說他要違背了推計科稅 行政法院才能這個當事人要違背了這個協力義務 然後行政法院才來推計科稅那這件事情可能需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2532.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2548.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
澄清一下,也就是說這件事情,現在草案的26條是不是真的打算沒有履行協定義務也可以推進課稅,這個可能要考慮一下否則的話就會跟納保法有體系上的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2550.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2563.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
最後一個條文我個人有意見的最後一個條文29條他說這個行政處分違法然後所以法院原則上要撤銷完全正確完全支持那可是呢這個第一項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2565.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2588.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第一項但書提到說,若訴院決定違反重要程序規定,應該撤銷訴院決定,移送訴院管轄機關,重新進行一次訴院程序。我覺得這個條文可能誤解了訴院。訴院不是法院的審計。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2590.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2590.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2608.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2610.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2639.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2640.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
以上報告,謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2668.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2682.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主席 黃立委還有在座的專家學者 現在是人權協會 我是代表中華人權協會來表達稅務行政稅審法的一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2684.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2707.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
今天討論的議題就是其實第一個最重要的就是說能不能解決萬年稅單的問題那事實上我們在看稅審法29條第三項第三跟第四項的情形的時候會覺得說事實上是容許法院的撤銷員處分命令稅券機關定為處分但是事實上在這種情況之下是真的沒有辦法真正解決萬年稅單的問題所以如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2710.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2729.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
法條要這樣子規定的話其實應該要限制、撤銷、發回僅以一次為限才能夠真正解決萬年稅單其實我們要強調說這個稅審法它的利益真的非常的良善它是很希望分爭一次解決但是在分爭一次解決的情況之下是不是會能夠兼顧保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2730.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2730.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2748.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2771.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
接下來就是有關於舉證責任這個部分因為現在資訊時代真的是機關所掌握的課稅資料真的是不亞於義務人那法條的設計用那種救思維的角度會造成不利於義務人的結果其實行政訴訟跟稅務訴訟其實多年來都採的是職權調查主義可是我們都知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2772.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2801.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
行事訴訟法過去也是採資權調查主義經過歷年的修正之後採的是改良式的當事人主義之後更能夠兼顧保障當事人的利益那稅審法行政訴訟法利益良善希望說機關能夠賦予一個更有更有強大的力量來保障人權但是實行下來之後我們會覺得說其實事實上並非如此那草案第11條第2項裡面尤其是提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2802.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2816.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
前向調查當事人應協力為之那這種情況的規定變成是把稅監機關會誤會說他只是一個協力義務而只是補充的地位而無需再負舉證責任那為落實機關的舉證責任我們會建議說是不是應該乾脆參考《刑事訴訟法》改裁改良適合當事人的進行主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2825.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2832.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
建議配合第二項修正為前項調查在行政計畫之舉證責任已完盡事實能有不明義務人有配合協力之義務否則的話其實12條的規定是根本就是讓義務人去負一個無限上綱的一個協力義務甚至還有一個還有懲罰還有處罰凌駕不自證己罪的法律原則所以我們會建議刪除的是第4項的一些規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2852.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2864.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
甚至有第13條會規定說義務人不到場得處罰其實我們在看稅審法的一些立法裡有些內容其實寫得非常的好但是事實上坦白講 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2865.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2882.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你的條文裡面其實是沒有放進去的那13條裡面我們提到說你第一項記稱當事人第二項也沒有提到原處分機關就是故意的排除也就是你要當事人來如果負責人他是一個法人代表人 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2883.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2890.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那他其實已經 既然是強制律師代理 已經請了律師來了為什麼一定要他叫當事人來 然後還可以連續處罰那機關呢 機關的承辦人員 負責人 如果不來呢他當時候在核定的時候 他的意思表示內容是什麼他如果都不來的話 也是找了一個法務科的 或者是其他單位的人來的時候是不是應該要做連續懲處的一個規範呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2910.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2911.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2933.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2950.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
稅務審查官的資格,因為資格是規定在行政法院組織法修正草案裏面我們看到稅審官的制度顯然是高度參考了制裁法院的紀審官的規定但是我們覺得這個本質跟紀審官是完全不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2952.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2968.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
稅務人員他本來就要查稅這是他的目的甚至他有他的考核績效獎金的部分所以稅官為了維護他自己的稅單的有效性立場上就是人民的對立面那跟這個專利的審查官立場是完全不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2969.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2979.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
制裁法院是採的是當事人的進行主義,紀審官是一個完全是中立的所以他的紀審官他可以從制裁局的專利的審查官轉過去那我們覺得說這個是可受公平的甚至這幾年實行下來,撤銷的案件,舉發成功的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2991.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2999.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
比例上也非常的高可是我們知道從以前到現在稅務案件的訴訟其實人民敗稅率極高所以我們會認為說在人民沒有辦法信任稅審官是由這個稅捐機關的人員派任下來的情況之下去設定這個稅審官的這個資格能力派任這個部分我們是值得考會值得懷疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3017.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3031.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
甚至不如是有指派一個專家學者來當一個審查因為他的目的是為了協助法院去查掉相關的資格資料的部分那可以請會計師或者是其他專家學者來查這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3032.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3056.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我覺得都可以表達意見不見得一定要有一個稅審官的這樣子的資格那說真的在我的實務立場上面包含我們在新加坡的訴訟案件過程當中我的實務上面曾經有新加坡的案件當法院認為說這個案件有一些需要專家的時候他就指定指派一個專家另外開一個程序部分由專家來認定雙方提供舉證責任來做攻防 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3061.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3062.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
委員會提供意見給法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3079.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3079.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
稅務行政訴訟審理法及納保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3098.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3103.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
實體法規定不妥適應該回歸到去修正實體法就像納保法的21條其實一直都讓任何人都覺得說那個已經變成一個句文了虛文了是沒有意義的那不如去修納保法的相關的規定那再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3125.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3148.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
稅審法其實它有擴大計判力的範圍尤其像18條第5項的部分當事人於行政法院實體判決後不得基於第二項駁回公防或防禦方法令提起同一個課稅案件的一腳稅款那它把它擴張到其他的部分而且第二項單書規定範圍非常的模糊所以對人民的權益影響非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3148.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3175.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那31條第3項規定說納稅藝人因故意或重大過失而未於事實審研辭辯論終結前就足以稅額減少的事由提出主張者不得於判決確定後基於事由來提起但是事實上坦白講這個故意或重大過失的判斷有一個裁量的空間納稅人有可能是因為他程序是不熟悉的而忽略這個部分那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3176.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3193.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
在稅這塊真的是一個很專業的一個訴訟會有導致不公平的情況之下所以會有不公平的情形所以我們會認為說採用這種絕對的總額主義可能造成人民的傷害所以會建議將第二項及第三項予以刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3195.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3197.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
退計課稅造成人民的惡度傷害,尤其是第26條的第3項第2款,其實事實上在立法理由有提及,但是我們在法條裡面並沒有把它寫進去,所以我們會認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3214.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3239.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
其實事實上該範圍得以主管機關公開之行業或同業利潤統計資料為基準但是事實上目前除財政部外並沒有其他的主管機關會公佈同業利潤的標準會避免法院引用進行引用同業利潤標準為推計所以違反立法目的因為立法的用意寫得很清楚所以我們會建議說是不是把說明欄示二後段的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3240.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3240.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3258.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3258.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3289.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3291.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
謝謝蔡主任委員 接下來有請黃委員國倉發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3304.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3321.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
非常感謝今天到場所有的學術專家還有律師、會計師們我知道大家平常都是大忙人願意接受立法院的邀請針對稅務事件審理法的草案提出寶貴的見解先表示個人誠摯的謝意 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3322.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3324.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
今天針對稅審法召開公聽會在司法院急急忙忙提出稅審法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3345.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3362.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我為什麼會要求在立法院召開公聽會因為2017年的時候我們在財政委員會通過了納稅者權利保護法那保法當初針對納稅者權利的保護事實上有高舉非常多的理想 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3363.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3377.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但是7年過去了過去的這7年是不是真的有實現當初納保法所實現的理想也就是說一般的人民跟掌握公權力的國家機器在所謂的稅務高權行為這樣子的一個訴訟脈絡當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3381.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3403.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們納稅者權力保護有沒有辦法矯正雙方當事人在訴訟上面本質上所存在的不公平以及不平等那導致了在實務上面產生了非常多讓人很難過的結果也正是因為這個樣子這一次他們在推動所謂的稅審法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3405.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3418.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我對於司法院：到今天還不願意公開委員會審議討論的紀錄我老實說我是沒有辦法理解法律人在討論法條尤其是我們專業的司法院為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3424.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3440.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
針對有關於稅審法的規定委員會審議討論的紀錄他到底是怎麼伸出這樣子的條文這個條文到底要怎麼解釋在討論的過程當中為什麼有必要把它列成是秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3441.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3461.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個對於接下來很多條文的解釋可能都會產生具體的影響或許為了要補足這邊不夠的部分未來司法院在主條解釋的時候恐怕對於每個條文到底要怎麼解釋必須要先想好 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3463.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3481.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
當然有很多學者專家跟我在第一次針對這件事情提出質詢的時候也提出相同的看法也就是說在稅務案件當中在一定的前提條件下可與當事人協力義務這件事情本身沒有什麼太大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3482.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3506.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但問題是說當你跟排除不自證己罪兩者的原則相衝突的時候這個時候要怎麼調和就成為一個重要的問題那這一次在稅審法裡面不僅僅在12條可以當成寫例如在14條它進一步的去排除不自證己罪的原則到第15條甚至連行政訴訟法拒絕證言的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3508.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3535.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
全部都把它排除掉了這樣子的侵入性是不是有必要性會不會太強這個是第一個抽象的問題可能今天也要聆聽許多學者專家寶貴的意見但是更進一步的是什麼更進一步的事情所謂排除不自認己罪這樣子的一個原則如果適用在租稅債務那適用在租稅處罰也有相同餘地的適用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3537.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3562.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個是我之前在質詢的時候我一直在請教我們司法院的因為在法條的文字上不管是14條還是15條我看不出來他有要排除租稅處罰的意圖但現實上什麼現實上我們的最高行政法院在好幾個判決當中我事實上只如列出了其中一個當作代表就很清楚的講租稅裁罰的事件是國家刑事處罰高權的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3564.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3584.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
跟科稅平等無關而與刑事法類似當事人並沒有協定義務或以責任以自證己作或自證無違規事實而且有無罪推定原則的適用等等因此在這個法律萬一就這樣通過了以後我們要面臨的第一個問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3586.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3601.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們剛剛所講到的不管是14條還是15條的規定是只有適用在租稅債務還是租稅處罰也有一併的適用當中這個會牽涉到非常具體未來在案件當中進行審判的時候這個絕對會影響到最後訴訟的勝敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3604.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3629.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
也會影響到所有納稅人的權益、非常關係的事項我們的司法院在制定這個法條的時候到底有沒有這個意圖要去排除租稅處罰還是租稅處罰也包括在裡面老實說從司法院目前所提出來的所有的資料我完全是看不出來因此租稅債務跟租稅處罰到目前為止在最高行政法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3630.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3646.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我所看到的判決比較穩定的就兩者之間的本質做了一些區別但是在稅政法裡面我完全沒有看到說在稅政法裡面對這兩個進行區別對待明文的法律依據明文的法律依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3647.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3666.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
到時候接下來實際案件在試用的時候會不會對於當事人或者是我們一般的納稅義務人產生過度的侵害我相信這個是在這個法條當中絕對沒有辦法去迴避一個重中之重 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3668.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3683.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
沒有辦法迴避一個重中之重的問題最後一個也是今天我看到很多學術專家我也非常感謝很多學術專家來竟然還提供了書面資料真的非常的認真非常的感謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3684.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3711.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
大家有提到的是說你找稅審官過來協助法官當然我可以理解可能法官在整個法學教育養成的過程當中未必對於所謂稅務的案件或是稅額的計算有像一般在唸財稅專科的這樣專業背景的人有相同的專業所以找稅審官來幫忙但問題是說你找稅審官來幫忙如果是從行政機關借調的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3712.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3734.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那今天我很感謝那個有一位不好意思我看一下因為牽涉到人家的名字我也覺得要慎重一點汪漢琴 汪廷長他所提出來的書面報告我代讀了以後他是以那個時候智慧財產法院裡面的技術審查官當作例子從那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3737.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3748.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
實際上面實踐的結果來看對於所謂稅審官的設置在實際案件上面會產生的影響那如果說啊未來是從公部門借調的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3750.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3779.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
以前技術審查官從智慧財產局借調是由智慧財產局來加以考評這個事情可能等一下最後再請我們的司法院具體的回覆一下因為你如果說是從行政機關借調的是由行政機關負責考評的話那可能在稅審官的脈絡當中大家所擔心官官相互的現象可能會更強烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3780.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3804.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那現在有關於在智慧財產權法院裡面那一邊汪庭長所指責這樣一個重要事務上面的運作那未來在你們所設想上面的稅審官是不是會產生相同的運作可能最後也必須要請我們司法院具體回覆一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3805.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3814.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那第18條的規定,剛剛也有學者指出來第18條的規定會不會讓稅審法接下來在所謂訴訟標的的認定上或是訴訟標的對於後訴訟所產生計判力客觀範圍、遮斷效的範圍上面產生一個過強烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3828.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3849.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
的效果那這個可能也是要請司法院特別予以斟酌特別是在18條第二項抬除於時提出供給防禦方法駁回的例外規定那我當然可以看得出來這個稅審法可能是從民事訴訟法相關有關於於時提出供給防禦方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3850.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3866.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
司權校的例外規定 把它列出來但是我相信 我們的司法院副秘書長自己也是民事訴訟法的專家這個條文在民事訴訟的脈絡當中解釋所造成的困難所造成的爭論 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3867.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3883.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
在稅審法這次有沒有要解決還是打算把民事訴訟那邊所產生的困難跟爭論原封不動的 首諾罵罵直接到稅審法裡面以後繼續會產生相同的爭論那我就講一個最簡單的例子 你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3885.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3905.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個攻擊防禦方法的提出不慎言之訴訟這個時候如果與此提出的時候也不用駁回那在這裡所謂的不慎言之訴訟請問你們所採取的標準是什麼是絕對言之還是相對言之是絕對言之還是相對言之那可能一般非法律系的人聽不懂但我相信副秘書長絕對聽得 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3907.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3929.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
絕對聽得懂 什麼叫絕對顏制 什麼叫相對顏制在明日訴訟法那邊就已經吵翻天了你把相同有爭議的文字搬到這個地方來我在你們立法理由裡面我還是沒有看到你打算用絕對顏制還是用相對顏制那不管你用絕對顏制還是用相對顏制接下來連接的到計判立客觀範圍所產生這段效的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3931.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3955.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
兩者之間的因果關係是什麼我的意思是說如果是用不慎言之訴訟當作例外的理由來開放或者是說因此而被駁回的話那這個時候對於紀判例的客觀範圍所產生遮斷效的範圍兩者之間所存在的互動關係是什麼那這個恐怕也是司法院在整個立法的說明當中必須要予以補強的否則我可以預期 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3956.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3958.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
謝謝黃委員接下來有請陳清秀陳教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3995.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4017.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
主席 各位委員 各位學者專家 各位先進 大家早上好 早安很榮幸有這個機會來參加這個稅務事件審理法的這個公聽會基本上我們知道我們稅務事件是相對起來也算相當的複雜那法令都如牛馬光財政部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4017.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4019.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4040.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4063.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
有必須要有受過稅法專業訓練的法官才可以擔任稅務案件的裁判這個提升了我們的稅務案件人民的勝訴比例過去還沒有納保法實行之前我們的法官可能對稅法還不是那麼的清楚理解所以因此這個人民勝訴比例加上和解的比例大概佔15% |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4064.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4065.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
稅務事件審理法 特別針對稅務欄案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4093.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4093.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
財稅案件財務法院法規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4112.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4112.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4134.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4134.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
處分：自行撤銷：變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4164.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4179.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
全憲最後應該要由司法機關來擔任不是行政機關專屬的全憲所以因此我這邊引用的德國、立法律以及歐盟法院的裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4180.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4181.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4199.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4200.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
司法機關最後決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4214.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4226.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
歐洲法院 歐洲的普遍的做法 也是德國的做法日本也是這樣 美國也這樣只有我們台灣啊 是處在一個比較落後國家的一個法治的這樣一個現象過去我們的財萬件處理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4230.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4255.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
明文規定 國稅局沒有處罰人民的權限只有法院才有處罰人民權限這是參考英美的法制 也參考日本的立法例也就是說只有法院才能夠處罰人民才能夠決定處罰金額多少可是自從我們的稅金計生法在60幾年還是70年修正的時候居然把行政法院的處罰權限拿掉了變成是國稅局行政機關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4257.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4278.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
獨佔的權限這個是明顯違憲的一個情況至少不符合國際的潮流世界各國沒有這樣的立法例所以因此我們建議這個部分應該要好好再修正一下第二個部分關於協力義務的部分我想協力義務的部分在本稅為了要公平課稅所以有協力義務可是在處罰部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4280.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4307.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
處罰的話應該是無罪推定原則無責任推定原則這個德國聯邦憲法法案過去有判決歐洲法院也有判決說這個處罰對人民的一個行政處罰要準用刑事訴訟法的規定來處理這也就是我們過去裁判件處理辦法我們的老祖宗用裁判件處理辦法他就明文規定處罰的審理程序準用刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4308.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4329.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們過去的道路交通管理處罰條例 也規定道路違規的處罰 法官 交通法庭 也是準用刑事使用法來處理換句話說 我們的勞組中 比較保障人權我們現在的法令規範 人權保障反而落後 這個表示我們人權保障是在退步當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4329.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4352.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
不是在進步喔雖然我們法制看起來好像蓬勃發展但是人權保障的觀念居然在弱化這個我們是建議啊應該要分開來處理所以人民應該有不知正己罪的憲法保障的基本人權應該無罪推定原則所以因此有保持真墨權利沒有寫立語這個在德國的租稅通則呢是有明文規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4353.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4353.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
稅務事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4371.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4394.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
本稅處分的訴訟跟法案處分的訴訟要分別審理裁判由法官、行政法院分別審理裁判有關處罰處分的訴訟審理及裁判準用刑事法規定回歸到我們早年的裁判件處理辦法回歸到早年的道路交通管理處罰條例準用刑事法這個也是德國法的標準也是歐洲法院的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4395.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4413.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個歐洲法院的標準那本法有關當事人協力義務規定在處罰處分的程序不適用之這個代表一種人權保障我們為什麼會現在這一次的草案為什麼會在處罰程序要刻意他協力義務主要就是因為我們現在為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4414.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4417.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
本稅的補稅處分與處罰處分合併辦理有一個法官合併辦理他怎麼切割說前面本稅有協力物後面處罰沒有協力物他很難辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4430.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4458.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
因若糾結 便宜刑事結果 人權保障就弱化了所以我還建議說 我們可以考慮分別審理 分別裁判適用不同的法律的一個遊戲規則 證據法則一個是無罪推定原則 無責任推定原則是一個高度的證明 才可以處罰人民一個是推計課稅 違反協定物就可以推計課稅 它是降低證明程度的另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4462.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4476.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
執言提出供給防疫方法的部分我個人認為這個利益良好但是實際上有它的困難因為我們老百姓我們包括律師在內國家考試只是選考設法如果你不考設法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4476.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4493.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
對稅法都不太了解所以常常很多有利當事人的法令規範這個權利都不知道主張結果你說你晚一點提出就說你這個遲延提出我給你程序駁回這個真的是情何以堪所以我是建議應該先說當事人故意違反誠實信用原則故意遲延提出這種惡性重大的我們讓他發生失權效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4500.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4508.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
其他的不應該啊 剝奪人民提出救濟權利如果在訴訟上都求恕無門恐怕只能在立法院這邊舉辦陳情協調會才有辦法解決紛爭我們希望我們人民的紛爭是在整個的訴訟程序可以圓滿解決我們德國的法治非常發達德國的律師普遍都有稅法的專業素養如果以巴伐利亞邦來講他國家考試是必考稅法科目 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4529.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4543.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以每個律師對稅法都很了解所以你這個條文用在德國沒有問題可是用在我們台灣啊就會本土化的話就會水土不服因為我們的律師並沒有那麼的對稅法那麼熟悉啊那這樣的話就會讓他剝奪他的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4546.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4560.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
事後研究發現有一些有利的事證 有利的資料 有利的法律觀點 結果都不能主張阿這個本來是國稅局跟法院應該是要明察秋毫 要本於職權認識用法 怎麼把這個責任推給當事人呢 結果我覺得這樣很不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4561.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4582.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
很不公平所以我們建議啊是不是應該修改一下剛剛那個計判役擴張的問題其實也有類似的情況還有就是律師的強制代理啊我是建議啊如果金額只有五六十萬現在就要強制律師代理我們律師會可能收費一個案子就給他收十萬塊啊一審收十萬二審就收二十萬官司還沒打就已經就要首費不治啊所以我是建議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4582.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4607.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
是不是強制律師代理的金額可以提高一點比如說一千萬還是多少錢那小額的話還是不要強制律師代理不然的話反而會妨礙到人民行使訴訟權利那最後我就有一個最高行政法院的退休法官尹文周法官他有一些意見沒辦法來表達所以我把他再附錄敬請大家參考一下這個第七頁以上請多指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4610.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4615.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 謝謝陳教授接下來請蔡草安主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4633.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4652.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主席還有各位在場的各位學者專家各位先進大家好那個針對這個這次的那個納稅行政審理法的草案表示自己個人的意見那其實這次的這個稅務事件審理法其實是通過蠻長的時間的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4655.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4670.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
對於這個長久以來我們的稅務事件有別於其他的那個行政的事件本身能夠有一個個別性的立法其實首先應該表示肯定因為對於這個稅務事件它的特殊性 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4670.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4671.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4688.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4690.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
其中這個草案針對若干長久以來的一些爭議 特別是針對總和主義 還有一些相關的行政法院法官在整個審理上的權限當中 都有做滿充分的保障 這也是值得來提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4708.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4709.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
稅務事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4733.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4758.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
規範 乃至說應該怎麼去做解釋總是應該要以納稅人權利保護法作為整個解釋的一個依歸也就是說納稅人權利保護法作為保障納稅人權利的這件事情本身它應該永遠是一個基本法而這個稅務事件審理法本身應該是基於審理的必要來去補充這個所謂納保法所謂規定的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4759.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4783.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
在納保法作為前置解釋的基礎下我對稅務事件審理法本身有幾點的意見先進來做參考第一個就是說我想在納保法的規範下違反協力義務本身協力義務當然是在整個稅務案件當中非常重要的納稅人的誠實義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4786.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4800.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
違反協議本身的法律效果不利益不能大於進到納稅移民的舉證責任這方面也就是說在整個協議的違反與舉證責任的違禁中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4804.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4833.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
協力義務本身的違反不應該大於它大於進到這個舉證責任那在這個基礎上如果違反協力義務本身最多應該是加以推計這也是納保法的精神而不應該就產生所謂的處罰的效果那如果說以這樣的來看其實我們在這個第12條這個地方以及14條這個地方有關強制處分這些規定這可能就值得有再做考量的這個必要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4833.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4858.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那至於說推計這方面當然本來就是在這個納把法裡面所認同的這個部分當然就是要去以這個當事人的寫立物為依歸另外在同樣在這個草案第12條的第3項這個地方裡面有提到說這個有關於納稅義務人本身他的代表人還有他的僱用人還有一個叫從業人員基本上都有跟著提出的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4860.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4884.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個從業人員這四個字我也覺得應該做一個比較清楚的界定因為律師是不是這一條所指的從業人員我想應該是顯然不應該是可能要加以排除因為律師受到當事人的委託那基本上他盡到的應該有保密的義務還有他的一個當事人的保密特權如果說當事人的這個律師也會是在這個被強制提出這個資訊的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4886.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4888.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4913.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4943.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
至少也應該要有一個所謂的那個金額上限的限制要不然的話可能會分次處罰的這件事情會讓這個當事人承受一個不可預測的一個不利益那另外提到這個所謂的洗禮義務事實上剛剛也有先進陳老師有特別提到在跟這個不自證己罪這方面的關聯性其實如果我們再細看這個德國的這個規範的一個比較法的基礎是不是也以這個非當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4943.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4947.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
作為基礎而不在當事人的適用範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4963.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4987.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
最後我也認同范老師所提到的推計課稅應該還是要明白的寫清楚但是我想其實原本法條應該也沒有不同的意思應該說它應該要以違反協力義務作為它的前提我想這本來就是推計課稅一直以來在納保法的規範精神上一直所認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4988.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5005.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
最後是有關於稅審官的部分我個人的意見是其實我是蠻認同稅務案件在整個稅務法庭當中能夠有配置稅審官對於法院也好對於律師來去對於稅務案件的審理本身能夠有助於審理的促進但是我也認同說對稅審官他的考評 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5014.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5042.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
事實上應該要有一個比較清晰的一個規定特別是應該要由司法院這邊來定出它的考評特別是它的考期各方面而不應該是說由這個只是一個借調的安排仍然由這個稅務機關來去做考評那最重要的可能也要再加上說稅審官如果他借調過來之前曾經有辦理的案件也應該有清楚的迴避的規定我想這可能也是重要的那以上做這幾點的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5044.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5044.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
有請汪漢清 汪庭長 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5063.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5089.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
主席還有各位委員還有在場的各位先進我是實務的工作者所以我的說明的一些經驗的分享大概都是從實務的方面來跟各位做報告剛剛尤其黃委員特別點名到了制裁商業法院在處理專業案件的時候有關於計審官的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5091.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5118.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
到底是什麼樣的情況所以我今天主要分幾個部分想跟各位報告技術審查官在我們法院裡面的處理情形首先我今天要跟各位報告的大綱主要是三個點第一個是專業協助在訴訟的必要性第二個是技術審查官的管理尤其剛剛很多先進都提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5119.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5140.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
技術審查官的管理如果是由原單位來管理的話那麼他是不是更會官官相護第三個部分我要提到有關於技術審查官的立場的質疑我想這三個是我能夠從實務上面有關於技術審查官在制裁法院目前運作的狀況來跟各位做一個分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5142.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5145.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
稅務訴訟是一個非常專業的案件同樣的智慧財產權訴訟也是非常專業的訴訟尤其是專利各位想想看我們常常有一句俗話說360行 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5173.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5175.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5199.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5224.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
專業的人士來協助法官在判斷的正確性上面是非常困難的所以我們在考量是不是要讓專業的人士來協助法院的時候首先要考量的是那這樣的一個專業性的協助是不是有它的必要那這個專業技術是不是它的困難度以及在訴訟的進行上面是不是能夠增加它的效率以及它判斷的技術性尤其是很多專業的領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5226.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5226.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5246.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5248.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
法院內部及法院外部專業人士的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5265.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5292.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
以及法院設置專業的幕僚協助這三個我的看法是並行不悖的並沒有非零和的狀況就是說只能有外部的專家而不能夠有內部的專家這樣做的目的是要讓內外的專家在法庭的攻防裡面讓真理越辯越明所以如果能夠任何提升法院判決正確性的機制存在的話我個人認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5293.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5316.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
在保障人民權益都是有必須要考量的價值所以經營以上的考量我來跟各位分享一下我們在技術審查官的管理沒有錯技術審查官目前我們是大部分是跟智慧局借調的為什麼要用借調首先我必須跟各位講跟各位報告的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5317.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5336.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
在智慧財產尤其今天我們如果說要去台積電挖一個專業的工程師來法院協助法院各位想想看那個難度我們法院怎麼可能去支付這樣的一個薪資讓一個這麼有專業知識的人能夠到法院來協助法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5337.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5353.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
各行各業的人我們要去抓各行各業多少人來協助法院而專利訴訟裡面有一個所謂的叫做所屬技術領域具有通常知識者這樣一個標準我們不需要去抓到各行各業的佼佼者我們也騙不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5354.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5354.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5374.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5374.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5391.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5392.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5414.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5415.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
司法及法制委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5439.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5439.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5470.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5494.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
提供的資料為了吸引借調人員能夠在這個地方願意過來我們在新資上面會特別有所謂的專業家級司法專業家級這部分還是有一些差距的這樣做的主要目的是希望他在法院期間能夠利用他的專業知識來協助法院技術審查官的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5494.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5495.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5517.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5517.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5533.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5561.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
當一個案子來的時候主任計審官他會委派專業知識相近於這個本案的這個技術審判官協助法官理解雙方當事人在法庭所爭執的內容我還是再次強調一點就是並不妨礙雙方當事人攜帶各自的專家你可以找這個領域裡面頂尖的專家呢到這個法院來做公訪那我記得有一個案子是化學案子連開三天雙方找了美國台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5562.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5562.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5578.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5598.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
法官可以決定不採,那我也常常這麼做,他所做的報告我不贊同,那我是按照我自己的認知、我的專業以及我在法庭上所聽到的專家、證人的證詞,我個人認為採像、採如何的判斷是比較合理的,這是常見的那從公部門界調呢,會不會官官相互,我想從這個地方各位可以看到,剛剛這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5600.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5600.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5630.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5631.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5650.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5650.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5666.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5681.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
被法院撤銷的比例高達60%的話那麼這個行政機關應該都沒有在依法行政這個國家應該是不穩定的所以我還是要最終的強調一點就是我們是希望透過任何機制協助法院理解真相謝謝好 謝謝王庭長接下來請陳士陽顧問發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5698.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5725.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
大家好 我是中澳民國會議事公會的顧問那現在首先談這個稅務審查官那談稅務審查官之前我們可以先瞭解一下納保官他的實施情況如何納保官每一個當然都是從稅務員裡頭提升過來的當初在設置納保官的時候包括我幾乎人人認為納保官一定是站在國稅局的立場事實上實施多年以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5726.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5753.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
顯然不是尤其我也是財政部納稅者權益諮詢委員諮詢會的委員每一次諮詢會的開會都會檢查各地區納保官的工作績效檢查什麼內他就服務的案件多少件滿意度怎麼樣有沒有人提起行政救濟那如果被提起行政救濟的話就是代表納保官的服務不好沒有替老百姓想到最好的法律能夠來適用老百姓所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5754.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5771.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
根據這個經驗我是認為如何績效評估納保官的會影響納保官的服務態度當然納保官如果他的服務他的績效是說你替國家課了多少增收了多少稅金的話納保官當然跟著 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5772.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5801.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
多課二歲間的路線去走那現在目前的財政部績效顯然不是這樣子所以我是認為這個稅務審查官的審查機制要建立一個如何幫助法院做一個更好的裁判那剛剛有提到如果稅務審查官他提出來的報告也是會被原告來攻擊的那如果稅務審查官他做出來的報告他的見解被法院法官不接受那法官就給他烤雞就來打 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5802.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5803.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
各種面面都要聚到 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5815.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5831.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
被告國稅局所以我認為整個稅務審查官他的績效衡量制度非常重要如果績效衡量制度對的話我們是十分贊成有稅務審查官的第一個會議公會是很贊成的第二個對於有關協力義務舉證責任萬年稅攤的事情當然我們還是希望納保法繼續維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5843.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5844.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5862.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5869.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
他的優先適用的位階顯然大於僅僅是適用兩個字當然我們會主張這個會連帶的就會影響到納保法第10條第11條 第21條包括這個稅源機關應該主動幫助納稅者獲得最適切的服務還有這個稅源機關負有舉證責任還有萬年稅單的解決第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5892.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5910.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
就是這個稅務事件審理法的草案總說明它是我們是第7條的末段我們希望是增加但經行政法案許可會計師及稅務員亦得為訴訟代理人因為這才是第7條的完整的文議因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5913.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5939.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
如果稅務員不能夠當訴訟代理人的話國家必須編列預算請律師或會議士來打替國家打稅務官司這個一定要花很多錢事實上立法院議士仍然維持會計士及稅務員經行政法案許可仍然得為訴訟代理人那最後我附帶一題了一般大家認為總額主義好像不錯事實上總額主義它也有附帶的不利益發生在什麼情況下如果說一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5940.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5941.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5957.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5971.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
調整項目那正常如果是以詐欺逃脫稅間無關的調整項目他的合格期限是5年可是因為這一次的合格金額裡頭有一部分是以詐欺逃脫稅間的金額那這個合格期限是7年沒話講 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5973.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5994.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
總和主義下就會把無詐數逃落稅間不是無詐數憑證不合或是被調整的進了全部合格期間全部變為7年這是總和主義的壞處我們希望這一次能夠考量這一點因為總和主義大家都認為好處事實上它是年代的壞處好 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝陳顧問接下來我們有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6002.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6003.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
陳衍任 陳教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6010.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6033.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
主席各位先進 大家好接下來的報告我們請就今天我們會裡面提到的四個問題我們來做回答首先第一個部分我們談到是說在稅務的行政事件審理法當中要解決的問題原則上在目前現行制度底下大致上有幾個問題首先第一個是剛剛各位先進都有提到有關萬年稅單的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6036.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6061.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
在早期我們實務上一般在法院撤銷稅單的時候原則上都只有撤到這個複查決定的部分所以在現行的這個稅審法當中他為了要去調整這件事情所以他就針對說在這個未來的撤銷的標的是以課稅處分為他的主要的標的那這也是配合我們稅政計政法的22條的實效不完成的這個規定的一個配套的一個措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6062.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6064.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6081.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6082.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6101.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6128.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在現行的這個實務上的這個經常我們在等於說實務上法院撤銷決定的時候經常做這個撤令處撤銷發回再另為決定那會導致說整個訴訟程序相對是比較不經濟那因此在我們稅審法當中的做法是希望讓法院有一個機會可以來做自為決定自為推計那此外針對罰還有裁量處分的情形他可以做一個減免處罰所以是讓整個程序相對比較經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6129.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6145.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
此外,有時候在當事人如果有待於協力的情形,我們透過訴訟程序去強化協力義務及到場的義務,這待會後面會去補充。最後一個是有關於在實務上有時候法院會受限於他的一些效能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6145.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6146.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
稅務行政事件審理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6164.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6187.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
最主要談的是在稅審法當中的協力物的規定本身會不會有過度侵犯人權保障有沒有違反不是政級罪的問題確實在目前的實務上的一些現狀相關的事證其實是由當事人在管理支配的居多所以蠻多的一些事證其實是所謂偏在當事人這一方 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6188.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6210.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們說原則上在整個稅捐計增過程當中應該是由稅局去依職權調查但是職權調查的前提必須是建立在納稅人有進到他的協力物為他的一個基礎只有在例外的情況之下在職權調查有了局限性或者當事人無法進到協力物的時候我們才會採取推計課稅的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6210.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6236.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
但是你會發現實務上確實有一些個案當中當事人他直接就放棄他的這個協力物的一個旅行那有這種取巧心態來拒絕提出那好直接就進到這個推計課稅這一塊那這個理由是因為說在實務上目前的推計課稅的一些規定像我們的這個擴大書審的這個存益率或者像同業利潤標準像所得標準呢他都有明顯的偏離這個實情就偏離行情的這個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6239.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6239.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6258.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6262.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
《稅審法》中針對《行政訴訟法》第125條的第二項因為訴訟法的規定有提到雙方當事人都有訴訟上的協力義務他把這個協力義務做更加強化包括陳述、提出、到場 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6279.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6304.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
陳述義務的部分最主要是針對當事人他有一個陳述的義務違反陳述義務的效果最多就只是證據評價上的不利益他並沒有額外的一些處罰等等的在提出義務的部分 事證的提出包括當事人包括當事人的代表人 他的職員等等也包括在境外 有些跨境交易的時候受託的第三人 比如受託的機構等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6307.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6334.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對他的要求本身在當事人跟代表人的部分是採取強制處分在第三人的話因為我們對境外無法透過強制處分所以我們就透過罰款的方式去處理在到場義務的部分是對當事人他有特別是講說在必要的時候有那個必要的情況才會請當事人到場來說明像有些當事人他可能沒有請這個律師他可能沒有請律師或會計師沒有委任代理人的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6335.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6349.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
確實有當事人來說明的這個必要會透過法環做一個擔保這是在現行的稅審法當中的一個規定接著就會引起一個討論是說我們的稅審法14條有提到不得因恐形式訴追而拒絕協力 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6351.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6368.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
因為實務上有時候會涉及到說可能當事人會有一些案件的他會主張說他有這個這個協力因為他有些刑案可能跟偽造文書跟逃漏稅有關的那他可不可以這個這個因為擔心這個刑事訴罪而拒絕履行協力 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6370.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6389.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們的看法是認為在稅務的領域本身原則上還是有這個協力物的一個旅行那不知正起罪必須要跟協力物去做一個調和不然的話你其實反而會讓這個城市納稅人反而會更加的不利在這樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6390.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6391.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
公聽會委員：完整會議公聽會委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6411.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6437.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
不過在德國的處罰領域原則上整個程序還是採取刑事訴訟相關的程序去進行此外在逃入稅的處罰上是以重大過失才有處罰所以你可以講說在德國的稅局在稅捐處罰的個案當中相對是比較有機會可以拿到相關的一些事證那它的處罰的實際相對範圍是比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6440.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6450.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
相較於我們台灣目前的做法,我們的稅捐處罰還是跑一般的行政程序此外故意過失都可以加以裁罰所以總體來講,德國的處罰範圍相對是比較限縮在台灣的處罰範圍相對比較擴張但是在擴張的場合之下,稅局相對調查的手段是比較侷限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6463.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6466.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
在稅審法當中針對不知政己罪除外可以強化協議的規定在稅捐處罰的個案當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6481.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6482.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
本稅與處罰則高於本稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6504.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6504.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
在處罰的個案當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6518.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6524.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
行政訴訟的整個立法精神除了當事人的人權之外還包括了整個公義的考量所以整個稅權公平還是一個必須要去維持的一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6538.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6562.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那怎麼去監督稅審官的這一塊呢?我們說稅審官的優點,他當然剛剛有提到說他可以輔助審判,那常設法官跟他的對話相對是比較便利。那此外呢,我們去強調的是說,他相對於你在個案當中去請律師或者會計師,他的利益衝突確實是比較小。這就很像是說我們一般的調解委員,我們不會去兼任這個律師跟會計師一樣,他必須有一定的分界。 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6563.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6587.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那怎麼去確保它的中立性呢?我們說法官還是負最終的責任此外在考機上我們會建議說是說至少讓司法院可以來參與這個考機跟制裁局看是要用比例的方式來分配不應該完全的排除司法院的這個考機這一塊那給稅審官長期保障跟選轉門的條款那可以維持它這個中立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6588.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6594.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
稅審法與納保法稅審法不是取代納保法只是補充納保法的不足有澄清納保法當中的缺失對納保法當中的模糊地方作具體規定對納保法當中的寫地物規範作更明確規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6616.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6635.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
《納保法》基本上是針對《實體法》及《程序法》的規範《稅審法》只是單純就訴訟的審理所以這兩個其實並沒有衝突的問題在《稅審法》的第3條裡面它就有提到說我是行政訴訟法及其他法律特別法的依據這就很像是說我們大法官的憲法判決去補充抽象的憲法條文的這種位階 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6637.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6654.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
最後一個立法的建議我們認為說其實在稅審法一旦未來有機會通過的話其實納保法當中的一些規定應該要配套去刪除掉就相當於是說我們在政府資訊公開法立法了之後我們的行政程序法的資訊公開就把它刪除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6656.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6674.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
《納保法》立法後,《稅捐激增法》的1-1跟12-1條規定也配套地刪除,讓大家看法條會比較一致。《稅審法》應該有一個整體的配套措施,因為它立法是一個整體的配套,像總統主義的部分,所以應該要避免割裂去做一個增刪的動作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6675.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6678.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主管院部、司法院、財政部強化對於最處罰的協力義務論述以及稅審官的問題,避免誤會以上是我的說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6699.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6722.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
以及陸續到場的包括有我們虎倫大學法律學院的秋成副教授以及臺灣大學法律學院的柯格中副教授以及臺北律師公會稅法委員會的王軒亞主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6724.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6741.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
還有國立中正大學法學院的聖子榮聖院長以及理律法律事務所的劉昌平合夥律師好那我們補充介紹之後呢我們接下來邀請是由黃俊傑黃教授發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6753.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6779.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席 還有我們在座委員 還有學友專家針對稅審法大概分成三個部分來跟大家做個個人僭建的一個報告第一個是規範體系的問題第二個是草案總說明就是大院在審理這個稅審法的時候應該對行政院還有司法院有一些要求第三個是針對草案的個別條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6781.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6789.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
修正建議陳教授納保法與稅審法的關係在規範體系上納保法是優先適用的特別法特別法的性質並沒有因為稅審法而改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6804.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6806.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6828.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6850.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
納保法除了基本權利的規定以外,還有實體、程序、還有權力保護的規定所以為什麼在審這個法案的時候,應該請行政院要一同來配合,來處理納保法的問題因為實體的規定,推計課稅,還有程序的協力義務,還有總額處理的規定,在納保法裡面都有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6852.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6878.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
司法院規範不足規範如何不足不足是實體不足還是程序不足還是行政訴訟權力保護的核心事項我想不是單純由司法院來審這個會議的時候由司法院來做說明就足以完善這樣的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6879.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6881.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
稅審法及特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6906.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6906.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6919.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6919.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6941.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6967.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們有沒有特別的立法那舉個例子來講因為這次沒有提出書面是因為目前剛好在做行政訴訟假扣押制度的一些研究那因為研討會在即我們發現就環境公益跟稅捐債權的實現的部分我不知道在座我們的立委還有我們的這個學者專家認為哪一個方面是比較重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6969.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6983.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
環境公益沒有特別的行政訴訟的立法但是實務上對環境公益的以假扣要制度來講多數是拒絕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6984.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7007.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以造成環境公益在我們中委員在這邊南部真的好幾個縣市從我所居住的台南以下有很多都是非常的嚴重但是在我們行政法院對於這個主管機關要去要去呢這個進行環境公益的維護所要求的這個行政訴訟腳構壓卻是幾乎都是拒絕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7010.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7024.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
稅捐公寓的這個假扣押因為稅捐債權的假扣押因為有稅捐計增法還有相關法律的修正那這個稅捐又被認為是一個確認性的刑事處分所以假扣押的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7025.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7025.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7044.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7051.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
立法有必要性：單獨立法是否已經針對稅審事件的特殊性：如同環境公益的特殊性：已經做完整的歸納：立法範圍：以假扣要的角度來講：行政訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7071.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7090.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
行政訴訟法已經有存在職權調查及其他相關規範,有沒有必要在稅審法加以規定?第四,法官的功能,主要去審查稅捐行政的合法性,而不是審查妥當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7092.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7095.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7113.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7138.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
是否會影響後續的這個部分其實稅捐最重要的一個特殊性或者被大家所斟酌的這個批評的一個特殊性就是它的推計課稅有很多是無窮止盡的那我們不要忽略了基礎事實是一定要存在如果連存不存在都有正義的時候那所謂的已證明這三個字是如何去證明已經證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7140.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7167.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這是將來這個稅務增重的一個納稅者這個對國家司法的信賴度的一個非常重要的核心的部分那另外一個呢就是法官最重要做的是合法性的判斷我們不要介入過多的這個機關的這個地位所以呢在這裡面我們當然也也必須同時說比較法上面法官有適度的滑緩的這樣的一個權限但是呢我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7168.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7169.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7195.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7219.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
要特別請立法院在審查稅審法的時候要求行政院要續明納保法在稅審法的制定施行的同時是否有規範不足或者是沒有必要做規範的情況之下我們看得出來稅審法的整體對納稅者的權利限制比較多保護比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7220.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7220.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
立法院司法院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7241.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7257.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
將納保法的相關的個別條文列入稅審法個別條文的草案說明來形成所謂的立法的必要性特別要去說增訂之後對納保法已經實施從106年到現在它的一些可能的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7260.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7281.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們必須要肯定司法院推動稅審法的研究不過我覺得研究時間還有投入相對應比較少應該是要請行政院配合納保法共同委託研究團隊就這兩個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7285.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7307.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
實體程序基本原則及權力保護切割研究量能適當分配實際上同時兼顧納保法及稅審法各自立法目的避免衝突尤其是避免衝突避免納稅者對議題看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7311.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7314.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
第7條、第11條、第13條、第14條、第22條、第25條、第27條有必要做調整第7條的強制律師代理有沒有注意到經濟弱勢、無資歷權力保護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7334.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7352.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
以稅額不合比例的強制律師代理規定違反憲法解釋224號所以我們在推行強制律師代理有專業的考慮但是如果沒辦法強制律師代理有這樣的困難是否就放棄權力保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7354.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7376.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
放棄權力保護與稅審法最根本的精神是相違的有沒有必要讓法官對當事人不到場,例如13條用暗刺的處罰,這樣一個處罰可能是一個過度的決定其他的部分再提供書面資料供大院參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7379.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7381.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 謝謝黃教授接下來請吳委員 盧昭偉中線 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7389.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7411.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
謝謝主席我今天要提的東西其實上一次的巡打的時候我也有提出部分的意見那因為今天其實我看到那麼多學者來這邊嘛而且前一天憲法法庭他才就那個你自己想做出判決那所以其實稅的這個部分呢應該他一直以來就是全民非常重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7412.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7413.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
稅務行政事件審理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7437.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7461.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
剋稅事件在補開稅單這個會不會造成人民他的救濟的程序反而變少了那是不是有損害到人民的權益就是上次我們有提到如果說他今天有補開一個稅單比如說原本是20萬然後後來在審查中發現還要多5萬變25萬那現在會變成一個新的處分會取代舊的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7463.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7480.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
整個程序就簡化了因為當事人就少了複查跟訴願的程序他就直接跳進去訴訟那這樣對還是不對所以上一次我有請教上次到場的官員以及司法院的複密有關這個部分所以這一塊可能也要麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7481.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7481.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7507.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7527.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我們要保證他的這個權利這可能再請大家能夠想一想那第二個就是有關草案的第13條的部分第13條其實他的規定是說法院如果認為有必要的話可以職權詢問當事人那當事人合法通知吳志昌就不到場他是得裁罰三萬塊以下的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7534.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7554.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
稅務的訴訟跟一般刑事的案件不太一樣刑事案件對於當事人的不利 當事人他必須接受 甚至他不想到場但是就稅務的部分 當事人他是提起一個司法的救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7556.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7583.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
會不會不到場?從人性來看,他應該原則上都會想要到場去表示因為他不表示,他就被你課稅了他到場的意願應該是遠高於刑事案件的意願第二個,我們是採強制律師代理既然有強制律師代理,那為什麼還要刻意一個當事人的協同義務呢?這個是我想到的,會不會讓某些當事人覺得好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7584.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7613.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好像把這個協同義務轉換成是一個我的舉證責任好像你要叫我到場我要說明我該怎麼樣那所以這個東西到底有沒有需要留下這一條再麻煩各位先進也再幫忙思考一下那還有就是其實很多東西當事人不到場法院自己也可以去計算那個稅額阿對不對所以也不是說一定要他一定要這個協議的義務到場這個是我認為這一塊好像有一點怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7614.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7628.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
最後還有一個東西就是我上次的詢問的時候有提到稅審官的部分因為複密當時講的是說這個東西就像是制裁局的技術審查官一樣但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7630.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7648.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這樣講好像聽起來也沒有錯嘛因為這個好像是這個觀念那可是呢你要想一件事情技術審查官他是從最早是從製裁局出來沒有錯從那邊去領選一些人可是製裁局在訴訟裡面他永遠不是訴訟當事人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7649.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7674.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
當事人一定是原告被告一定是基本上就是民眾或是公司那些法人或當然也有可能是公家機關可是他不會是制裁局啊所以這個拿來比擬是有點怪因為稅審官他如果都是從國稅稅務機關去領選人才來的那稅務機關基本上他就是當事人所以這兩個東西我覺得比擬起來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7675.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7675.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7693.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7721.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
當事人 原本那個當事人的那個機關來而且3年後可能還要回去升官那這樣子他能不能夠做一個公平的論述可以公平的東西那我覺得這算是一個大家也要再考慮的齁我講 呃我還有最後就是 還有一個就是說這個稅審官喔你如果從國稅單位請來那他對於地方稅他到底守不守這也是一個問題那其他的稅務他他有沒有那個專業也是我覺得要考量的齁所以 呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7722.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7722.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
謝謝各位 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7751.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7766.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
謝謝吳昭偉接下來在邀請陳文晶副教授發言之前先做程序上的預告稍後我們在莊瑞雄委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘接下來請陳教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7774.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7791.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
主席、莊委員以及所有與委會的學者及實務界的先進們大家好關於稅審法草案的內容我個人有以下幾點看法第一在稅務行政訴訟中納稅義務人仍然應該要負擔起協議義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7796.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7807.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
在稅捐基徵程序中﹐尤其是稅務機關依職權行使﹐調查權時﹐非常需要納稅義務人的配合﹐因此﹐納稅義務人必須保存帳部憑證﹐供稅務機關查核來正確課稅﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7811.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7840.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
但不是所有的納稅醫務人都會乖乖保存帳簿憑證竟他們應盡的協力義務而是利用各種推脫之詞妨礙稅務機關正確核克如果在稅務行政訴訟中容許納稅醫務人不必負擔協力義務就會變成耍賴的孩子有糖吃只要納稅醫務人從一開始出核時就不提供任何帳簿憑證一路到複查訴願行政訴訟都不提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7841.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7842.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7864.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7879.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這對誠實納稅乖乖履行協力義務的納稅義務人來說是非常不公平的因此在制度的設計上面應該要使不想履行協力義務的納稅義務人無法逃避他們應盡的責任接下來要談的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7881.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7899.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
在稅務行政訴訟中要求納稅義務人競協力義務與不自證己罪是不是產生衝突不自證己罪指的是說在刑事案件中不能強制被告證明自己的犯罪事實那在稅捐案件中呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7899.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7926.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
由於稅捐協力義務是屬於公法上的義務納稅義務人不會因為刑法上的不自證己罪而當然免除掉他公法上的協力義務所以即使是到了稅務行政訴訟程序中納稅義務人的稅捐協力義務仍然存在但是如果納稅義務人在訴訟程序中履行協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7927.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7954.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
有可能使納稅義務人面臨自證己罪的情形這個時候基於人性尊嚴的保護就變成要先維護納稅義務人的不自證己罪權利不能強迫他履行協力義務這裡我要強調的是協力義務仍然存在只是不強制納稅義務人履行而已而且必須是面臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7955.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7960.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
為了使行政法院具備專業能力計算出貼近真實的稅額徵涉稅務審查官是必要的這裡必須與第一點所提到的問題相呼應就是同業利潤標準偏低的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7978.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7992.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
本來推計課稅的設計就是應該所得從高計算成本從低計算這樣稅積偏大所課徵的稅額才會多進而間接促使納稅義務人願意履行協力義務交出他的帳部憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7993.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8015.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
但是如果像我們現在的實際情形同業利潤標準偏低也就是所得從低計算這樣納稅義務人賺得越多就越不願意履行協力義務因為他被推計課稅反而對他有利這樣一來只有傻呼呼的納稅義務人才會遵守乖乖遵守協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8017.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8041.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以,如果納稅義務人不遵守協議義務,那麼結果就是採用推計課稅。推計課稅制度的設計應該是要往推估高所得的方向去課徵。如果稅務機關因為種種因素而無法採用貼近真實稅額的計算方式,那可以由行政法院來代為計算,因為法院是中立的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8042.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8064.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
但是法學訓練上並沒有計算因納稅額這一塊啊所以為了讓法官能夠代替稅務機關計算出接近真實的因納稅額需要配套措施給法官們幫手也就是稅審法裡面的稅務審查官來協助法官作出判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8065.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8076.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
接下來的問題就是稅務審查官的來源要從哪裡來呢有可能是會計師也有可能是國稅局的稅務員如果法院請稅務機關的稅務員來擔任稅務審查官有可能會產生判決結果對稅務機關有利的疑慮這個疑慮從邏輯討論來說是合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8088.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8112.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
但是我們還是要從實證經驗來看才知道這個疑慮是不是真的存在這部分我們可以參考智慧財產及商業法院過去的經驗自從2008年設置制裁法院以來為了能夠協助法院精準判斷制裁技術問題設置技術審查官來輔助法官辦案到目前為止這個制度已經施行16年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8113.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8135.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
而法院通常是向經濟部智慧財產局借調資深或者優秀的專利審查官來擔任技術審查官但是技術審查官的報告並沒有拘束法官的效力而且這些由技術審查官參與的判決也有相當一部分是主張要撤銷原處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8136.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8158.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這是個很有趣的現象實證經驗的結果跟想像上的疑慮並不是完全的吻合這也反映出法官並不會被這些從主管機關借調來的幫手牽著走當然如果各位對稅審官的徵社還有疑慮請各位不要忘記法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8160.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8183.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他有一定的法學素養不是提線木偶他只是需要藉助他人的專業能力來協助他完成審判而已因此也可以考慮讓法院打稅審官一部分的考機或增加淘汰機制避免各界的疑慮最後一點是簡報上沒有的就是解決萬年稅單的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8185.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8198.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
將複查決定訴願決定與原課稅處分視為一體作為法院審理的對象才能夠解決萬年稅單的問題原因在於撤銷訴訟的程序標的應採取原處分主義簡單來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8200.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8214.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
作為提起行政訴訟先行程序的訴願程序其實是行政程序的一個延長所以當人民對原處分不服而提起訴願整個案子還是在行政系統的行政程序內進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8216.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8216.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8232.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8247.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
原處分只是一個最初形態決定而經由訴院決定所做成的處分才是整個行政系統對外的最終決定也才是法院徹效訴訟所要審理的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8250.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8267.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
實體法上,複查決定與訴願決定同樣屬於行政處分,兩個都兼具於行政自我審查與權力救濟的功能,將複查決定、訴願決定與原課稅處分視為一體,作為法院審理的對象,可以充分解決萬年稅單的一個問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8269.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8298.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
本草案歷經學界、司法、食物及財政部多次討論,難得有改革的共識,因此我全力支持本法盡速通過。未來施行後,如果發現需要改進的地方,也可以再做修改。以上是我個人簡要的看法,謝謝各位。好,謝謝我們陳教授。接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8299.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8301.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
之後我們就休息10分鐘謝謝鍾委員還有我們在場所有的學者專家還有我們列席的官員大家早安辛苦我想我剛坐在這個台下在那邊聆聽感觸非常多有一些話想要來講這整個我們稅務行政事件審理法這個草案在我們4號法制委員會在審的時候我曾經講過一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8328.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8329.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我要在場了 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8330.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8359.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
有辦法審出來的有辦法審 有能力審的三個我就要求我們主委我們召委一定要召開這個公聽每一次在這種這種重大的一個法律的一個修訂的時候我都特別有感覺就是說其實中間過程吵吵鬧鬧都很正常可是往前再去推的話就是一個進步可是在我們司法法制委員會裡面你說光各位剛提出的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8360.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8384.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個是要讓我們整個委員會裡面來最後做出決定不容易會受到行政部門司法部門的影響會比較大因為畢竟這部法令裡面也經過了我看至少有超過兩年的一個時間在各界不管是司法院或者說在會計師或者律師界有這麼多學者專家大家共同來參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8386.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8386.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8405.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8416.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我也一直在看這部法律到底要怎麼樣去定性我比較擔心的是說你一部法令如果定了以後啊那到最後很多判決出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8419.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8447.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
造成社會上尤其是比較專業的人出來在吶喊這對整個司法的一個公正性其實是有傷害那在這個整個訴訟過程當中啊你怎麼樣去讓老百姓去感受到你法官做出一個判決他是具備公正性的或者在這個過程裡面你覺得他是有效率的不會讓我這個身為老百姓的在法院這邊來回這樣子去做一個奔波 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8448.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8473.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
在中間的過程裡面又涉及到那麼多的一個技術性的確實喔我最近一直在想這個問題那該怎麼辦那你一般在講說我們民事訴訟說當事人在進行主義那刑事訴訟的部分又類似於比較有法官比較過去是職權進行那你在這個整個行政我們這個整個稅務行政事件裡面你要把法官定性成什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8474.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8493.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我記得我上一次在質詢的時候我就特別提出來那個副秘書長跟那個我們稅務誒 財政部是政事還是稅務署我忘了我特別跟他講到這個整個稅審官的部分我說我不跟你談法律啦我就認為這個設計有一點點我們現在如果用這樣採這樣的一個設計的話你對當事人 對稅審官來講沒有期待可能性他那個角色的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8501.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8526.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
角色的一個問題我會比較站在老百姓的立場我會認為這個五七就有點不平等憲法的設計就很好玩我們憲法的設計19條就很明顯的就講說人民有依法納稅的一個義務好了 框在這個地方啦重點是說增值來以後我們這部法律本來可以解決掉很多萬年稅單的一個問題可是呢這個看起來都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8527.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8546.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
一大突破可是這個過程裡面涉及到太多的一個爭議你像比如說你那個訴訟標的或者是那個中間判決那個計判例那個到底會設成會有多遠那又涉及到我們整個我們這些行政法院接下來他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8548.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8559.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
法官的一個養成真的是這樣子幾個小時或者說幾天的時間大家密集來授訊就有能力來審這樣的一個案件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8560.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8563.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
摸著良心 不會受騙 我比較擔心一定會被稅審官牽著走這是勢必的 我就沒那麼厲害吳宗憲委員剛剛也是法律專家可是他就是檢察官出身 不要說你民法摸得少就算你在民庭的 或者是一個律師你專門在打民事 可是民事的領域又有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8588.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8590.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
有辦法期待稅務行政事件審理法官在那麼短的訓練裏面有辦法承擔指揮訴訟或判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8606.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8621.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
要做出一個非常好的判決 讓人家拍手的 不容易但是要做出一個判決 讓人家一直可以跟你幹嬌 挑出毛病的 那又很簡單喔譬如說副秘書長 你現在代理秘書長 你那個研究發了一四人的叫你來審 你是多大而已沒有摸過 不會就是不會啊真的啊 我記得我在當小律師的時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8632.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8637.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我也只能在稅務這個部分稍稍涉略以後 那個太龐雜了 我簡單講一個 你說一個繼承案件裡面涉及到你多少債務要去把它扣除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8652.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8676.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
各位如果是女士國稅局的 我告訴你 我就欠總裁員多少 只有這條證明有多久我如果說 留下來的時候 那個國票 那個都沒有試駕 未上市的有多少光這一些 你說到最後 這個過程涉及到那麼多專業的一個判斷要交給我們整個稅務行政事件的審理的法官 去一次把它做一個終極的一個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8678.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8693.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我看實在是不容易但是我也期許各位的意見拜託多一點給我們一點書面我相信我們在司法法制委員會我們也會努力把各位的意見來做一個權衡在審理的過程裡面我們會很仔細的去把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8701.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8701.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8726.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8738.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
到最後如果 其實確實是重要 過了以後你們要準備二次修法啦真的啦 一定會的啦 常常都會是這樣子啦我看以前這個民事訴訟委員會 研討委員會 修法委員會 或者行政訴訟大家都定期這樣在討論 我都一直覺得 行政訴訟 誒程式醫學老師我看你們都失職啦你們應該都故意賺錢而已啊 不然大家看這樣找比較多人 有時間就大家好好研究 這個才會進步啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8754.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8760.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我看民事訴訟在修法的過程裡面到最後為什麼變得會比較順利就有研討的過程裡面有權威見解會出現譬如說整個大廈到變權威教授啦權威見解 權威律師這樣大家都在走比較不會淡淡不然現在你在稅務行政的部分喔到最後我跟大家報告這不是 免疫大家喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8779.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8784.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
立法院很多同事問我說 什麼人比較權威啊 我們來找那個好不好人會跟著一起走的話 內心會走的比較安全因為我們不容易隨隨便便 說你一個法律 我就聽誰的就過去聽司法院的 聽 聽他又怪怪的 他又官方聽民間 又不知道要聽誰的 聽律師改的 待會想律師改的都要探錢而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8806.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8812.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
你聽法官：法官很明顯你就是不管是法官或者律師你過去的養成你確實是你都連課錢也不課到這裡說一句實在啦是大家最後胡亂吞早是因為大家程度都不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8820.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8829.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
基本法學素養都有然後這些在原理原則大家再來好好去努力一下都有辦法來精進可是涉及到人民財產權的問題我真的這樣覺得也拜託大家各位都是資深的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8836.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8836.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
法學專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8853.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8878.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我是覺得這個部分也應該有義務以各位都有那個能力來一起來推進立法院你們不要期待太多啦立法院我們是可以這樣喔你們的意見我們站起來看一看對一下比較有道理我們司法及法制委員會真的送出去以後院會幾乎都會差不多嘛會尊重我們嘛因為畢竟這是比較專業的可是在審法的過程 修法的過程裡面請各位你們去看直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8880.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8884.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
會發言才會這樣他講不下去,真的講不下去,真的講不下去所以這個真的是也要拜託大家我們盡量來讓這一部法令來做一個完備啦確實是可以一次來做一個解決不然以前的行政法案大家被批評的就是你就這樣撤銷而已啊撤銷而已啊你都敢駁回你敢駁回你敢駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8899.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8899.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
謝謝莊委員 我們現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9534.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9538.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
秋成副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9561.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9586.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
主席、各位委員、各位在場的專家學者還有各位與會的先進大家好我想剛剛大家都提了蠻多的意見那我當然也非常的贊同那我想就是說當然也表達一些就是說一些自己的想法然後我想說我們可以做一個意見的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9587.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9589.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
稅審法的爭定與納保法之間的關係稅審法的爭定最主要的目的之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9603.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9605.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
為了讓法院能夠依照納稅者權利保護法第21條第3項的規定可以自為稅捐的核定 稅額的確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9622.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9650.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那當然就是說剛才蠻多的這個學者都有提到這個萬年稅單這樣子的一個問題那萬年稅單基本上他是怎麼樣去產生的那其實就是因為我們的納稅義務人那對這個課稅處分有爭議的時候那基本上最主要是提起這一個撤銷訴訟那當這個納稅義務人在有理由的這個情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9651.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9654.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
撤銷訴訟的裁判類型包括單純的撤銷、撤銷發回、自為裁判傳統法院認為稅額的確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9671.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9672.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
實務上的做法,基本上的撤銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9691.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9711.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
原處分基本上只會測到複查決定原處分基本上是不會去做測銷的所以發回後的原處分機關基本上有可能重新做成與原課稅處分相同內容的行政處分所以這會造成納稅義務人基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9714.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9734.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
好不容易經由了非常冗長的行政救濟程序最終達到了行政訴訟基本上他也是在勝訴的情況之下但是他卻沒有辦法藉由法院的確定的終局判決來獲得正確的因納稅額 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9741.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9741.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9762.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9781.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
在105年公布納保法第21條的第三項規定也就是說行政法院對於納稅者的因納稅而因查明事證以何時確認在納稅者聲明不符的範圍之內定期訴訟所以我想就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9783.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9793.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們第一個就是說的一個目標就是希望就是讓我們的一個就是這個行政法院審查這個稅務專庭的法官他對於這種課稅處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9799.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9817.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
人民對於課稅處分不符在人民有理由的情況之下他們可以將這一個裁判類型從撤銷發回導致為裁判那所以就是說當然就是說這個到底要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9818.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9831.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
讓法院可以自為裁判這必須要有許多配套措施最主要的中心理念就是不要讓納稅義務人遭受冗長的課稅程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9840.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9841.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
草案第20條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9854.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9871.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
提到質疑的部分就是說雖然基金機關於訴願決定送達或第一審撤銷訴訟系統中就同一課稅事件另外這個做成新處分來取代或變更這個原來的課稅處分的時候那無需經這個複查還有訴願 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9873.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9901.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
基本上即取代原處分成為撤銷訴訟的一個程序標的那我想基本上其實因為這本身就是基於同一個課稅事實那確實就是說沒有必要就是說這個納稅義務人他還要再重新進行一次的複查還有這一個訴願的一個程序所以我會覺得說其實這個法律這個草案基本上我覺得他是有一個實施的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9902.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9903.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9924.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9951.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
租多配合的實施這些實施我想其實是落實在稅審法的一個草案當中首先就是說在實務上基本上我們會看到蠻多的案件基本上它是涉及到推計課稅的那其實尤其是推計課稅以往法院都會認為說它是一個行政權的一個展現那所以呢基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9952.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9953.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9976.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9992.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所以行政法院應該是可以就這個合法性為司法審查這樣子所以我們是覺得就是說就算在推計課稅的案件之下那我們的這一個法院基本上它也是要這個自為這個稅額的一個核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9993.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10014.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那到底要怎麼樣去推計課稅基本上我覺得推計課稅它是涉及到一個就是比較是技術性上面的一個層面其實推計課稅也沒有大家所想的這麼的單純就是說這個納稅義務人不履行協力義務所以我們就是用同業利潤標準去推計他的一個所得額 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10015.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10037.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
因為有時候的狀況是發生就是說那算義務人基本上他可以提出他的一個營業收入的這樣子的一個證明但是他對於成本費用基本上他是沒有辦法去提出的那或者是說營業人基本上他可以去提出他的一個營業的銷售額但是呢他對於他的一個鏡像憑證的這個部分是沒有辦法去提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10038.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10066.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那在這些的狀況之下到底要怎麼樣去推計課稅才會最合於就是貼近局納稅義務人實際的所得那甚至於我們說就是說對納稅義務人最有利基本上我覺得這個技術層面的操作因為其實推計課稅它本身就是一個事實認定的一個問題那這個事實的認定基本上我覺得或許是 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10067.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10094.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們的基層人員基本上我覺得是一個因為他平常都在做這些事情所以我會覺得說在這個熟悉度上面我覺得基層人員是最適合的那我覺得大家可能都把基層人員想得非常的壞這樣子都會覺得說他就是說要來侵犯納稅義務人的權利就是說反正就是說這個有可能就是說讓他們當稅審官的話那是不是會求員兼裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10095.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10107.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那我想剛剛就是陳理事長有提到就是說在納保官當初實施的時候那其實大家也非常多的質疑就是納保官基本上他到底會不會站在納稅義務人的這邊然後呢替這個納稅義務人的有關於這個課稅的爭議來做一個比較中立的這樣子的一個判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10117.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10140.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那因為我之前擔任財政部納保會的一個委員那我發現納保官實施的成效其實算是不錯的那為什麼是不錯呢?因為他們就會有一個滿意度調查這樣子那幾乎每年是可是我覺得那個數字我也覺得有點懷疑因為每年都百分之百耶就是說納稅一五人對那個納保官就是非常的讚許這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10141.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10143.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
實施成效還不錯納保官從經驗豐富的機政人員挑出來納保官讓行政徵送案件減少人民提出複查 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10162.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10162.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
財政部北區國稅局副查外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10188.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10188.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
推計課稅對納稅義務人更有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10212.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10232.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那所以竟然是對他們更有利的情況之下其實他們是故意不去履行協力義務然後就是為了要推計課稅這樣適用這一個同業利潤標準這樣子那他不提的原因基本上也有可能就是說他的帳冊有一些問題所以呢基本上他不想要去提出這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10232.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10233.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10252.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10280.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那再來就是說我們提到的就是說這個協力義務的這個部分那就是說有這個罰還的一個問題那我想就是說如果我們從協力義務的本質去看的話基本上他最主要是要去計算正確的稅額那既然是要去正確的去計算稅額的話那我想就是不管是誠實申報的納稅義務人或是不誠實申報的納稅義務人基本上他還是都有協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10281.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10287.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
協力義務不分你是呈事申報還是不呈事申報要求納稅義務人到場去說明避免一些僥倖的情況發生刻意不履行協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10303.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10329.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個財法我覺得其實它在論理上是有正當性的因為它本身就是違反這個行政法上的一個義務這樣子所以處以行為法其實就是納稅義務人違反這個協力義務處以行為法的話其實在我們的經政法第44條以下其實都有規定這樣子那況且就是說其實我們的草案其實剛才這個學者有提到就是說這第13條是規定德所以換句話是說德處以罰還所以是法官他基本上具有財量的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10330.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10331.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
財量權限由法官決定是非常適切的協定義務及不治政紀罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10346.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10373.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
因為我想就是說協力物有時跟不治正己罪它會處於一個緊張關係所以我們才會在我們的草案第14條當中去提到就是說基本上是不得已強制執行的方法促使為之如果說可能會就是說這個可能協力物的履行可能會讓納稅務人限於一個就是說會去舉證自己的可能會涉及到一個刑事處罰或是行政秩序的處罰的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10375.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10401.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那當然就是說以德國法經驗來看的話就是說基本上這些資料不能夠作為納稅誘人犯罪的證據也就是說補稅核定的資料不能拿來作為納稅誘人構成逃漏稅的一個證據資料所以我是非常贊成就是說在陳教授剛剛提到就是說本稅跟裁罰應該要分開審理這樣子那因為時間到了就是說最後我講一個部分就是說其實我覺得我們都在講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10402.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10402.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10429.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10430.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
謝謝邱教授接下來我們有請柯格宗教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10466.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10484.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
稍微還有在座各位那個司法法制委員會的女士先生還有在座我們的同僚們學術同僚們以及實務工作者大家好那就關於稅務行政事件審理法的草案的這個相關的問題我大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10484.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10486.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
稅審法是一個專業性的行政訴訟法,專門針對稅務事件行政訴訟上所需要的各項條件來備齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10508.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10522.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那也就是說這個地方當然連帶會牽動到它跟納保法之間的關係基本上來講這兩部法律它本身都並沒有互相衝突的問題它比較接近是行政訴訟法因為在納保法裡面只有21條它只有一個條文處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10524.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10548.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所謂的納保的這個稅捐爭議事件裡面你要怎麼去做那個從徵典主義走向總和主義那因為法律規範是不夠的它就只有一個條文而已那也因此從那個地方延伸出來把相關的你在做行政救濟程序裡面你需要的東西透過行政訴訟法的特別法也就是這一部稅務事件審理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10548.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10574.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
的法案來把它精緻化跟處理相關的爭議問題那裡面其實萬年稅單只是它一個表面現象啦基本上應該是它如何協助法院可以在盡量可能事實發現的前提底下裡面去自為判決這才是整個草案的核心精神所在因為你只要能自為判決就不用發回嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10574.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10574.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10593.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10619.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
盡量回到法院我們法院是一個我們至少假定它就是一個公平的場所稅務事件裡面的法官他去看這個案件裡面你國稅局這個認定有沒有到你法律解釋適用有沒有問題因此稅審法它是在這個意義底下裡面你說我們要更保護納稅人的權利當然啦即使解決紛爭就是保護你的權利我們大家都知道時代正義不是正義啊但回過頭來就是這個也不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10620.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10620.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10643.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10644.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10667.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10685.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
必須要支持這樣一個稅務事件審理法的提出因為這個武嶺可以讓我們行政法院在稅務事件上他有審理認定事實上非常重要的必要的工具第二件事情我們就來講稅審官因為前面很多先進包括其實我們莊委員也在那邊想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10687.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10702.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以省官他到底可能是怎麼作用我們在座所有包括學者專家在內包括我自己在內我們都法律背景我們在學校學什麼包括剛剛已經先離開黃委員我們都法律背景我們法律背景學的東西我們知道我們自己缺什麼講白一點就是我們沒有實務操作看帳簿的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10712.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10733.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
憑證對賬 賬做出財報然後才來變成是我們在科稅案件裡面那個科稅處分那個事實的認定事實認定含涉到法律過程對法律人來講沒有困難但他的前提的事實這件事情是怎麼樣我們因為我們的法律背景的訓練我們基本上是沒有那個訓練那個可能是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10734.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10734.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10750.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10765.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
他的作用就是幫法官去看帳簿去看行政到底有沒有正確完整性因為這件事情是後面他要判斷事實的前提基礎講白一點就是你沒事實沒辦法適用法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10766.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10780.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
後面那個部分法官自己就會用了所以甚至你看那個王庭長他先離開了他們在商業法庭裡面紀審官也是這樣啊你提出來的東西你至少也要能夠讓法官可以先相信這個事實是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10782.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10799.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
不需要太過妖魔化每個在這個職位工作上的每個人稅審官這個事情如果你怕他不中立就像剛剛陳會計師有提到那件事情其實作為一個行政官僚輔助法官去認定事實的一個官僚來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10800.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10828.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
其實考機這件事情確實很重要因為講白一點就是我又不是法官終身職的那我需要一個東西所以也許我們可以在行政法院的體系裡面透過對稅審官的相關的這個考案因為無論如何稅審官他的功能是在協助稅務事件的行政法院他在認定事實這一件事情上面因為一家營利事業特別是哪一個部分他真的非常需要稅審官的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10828.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10829.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10848.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10849.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10872.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10900.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
為什麼會需要國稅局我們按從德國的經驗來看他是這樣他說因為你沒有跑過外務沒有實際去查帳的人看不懂貓膩所以不是做會計的你做內勤的人不懂所以德國慕尼黑法院的實務經驗是他要5年實際現場查核他去看現場他就知道你這個帳簿他的功能就是他要看帳簿的完整性跟真實性 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10901.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10925.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這件事情沒有學過這個東西的法律人 基本上包括我自己在內 我是看不出貓膩的啦你說今天他把一個科目從那個資產調成費用 欸 這個會不會影響所得 一定啊但不是學稅法的 其實大概出錢可以知道 欸 這個會影響所得學法律的如果不是學稅法的 其實他不太知道這個有什麼關聯性 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10927.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10941.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
稅審官的功能跟作用無靈就是幫助法院在剛剛講的前階段這個事實的認定那當然啦這個我也必須要去講啦為什麼那不然你可以找外部德國的經驗是這樣啦因為他找外部他怕有中立性問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10942.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10956.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他反而不知道這個人因為我們自己也曾經當過一些案件裡面的外部的那個委員幫忙就是說如果某甲來找我說柯老師你可不可以幫我們給個鑑定的意見我看一看說 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10957.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10980.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我的結論好像跟你希望我的結論不一樣那你覺得你會請我嗎?我也不好意思啊你懂我意思嗎?所以在德國人的經驗裡面他是說你如果找外部人也可以但是有時候找外部人就要看當事人要不要這是第一個因為要出錢的問題那如果是法院自己找的話他就會存在著一個他也不太知道他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10980.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10980.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
國稅局實際查賬 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11001.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11029.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
法官就知道問題在哪裡了他就可以在事實調查的時候往他想要查的那個方向去做事實的調查這就是稅審官的功能就像紀審官我們不是做技術你有沒有進步性新創性你會知道那還真的是你還真的是太厲害了因為我們法律人的背景我們受過民刑法訓練這一點我們沒有問題行政法憲法的訓練我們沒有問題可是我們不一定就是那個專利技術或者是看賬簿的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11030.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11054.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
同理可證第三個問題講協力義務的部分因為這個協力義務其實前面幾位先進大概都有談了很多問題我必須要先說一下其實協力義務是對瞌睡事實他不是在對處罰這件事情要先弄清楚在座的幾乎應該不會有一個人會去主張說處罰自己的事情我要有協力對這個事情去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11055.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11077.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
證明說自己去陳述自己有犯罪的事實沒有人在座絕對不會有一個法律背景包括我們的早委包括我們所有在場的每個人不會有人說你要對自己自己有犯罪事去陳述不是這個意思他其實協力物的本意是對瞌睡事實這件事實他是不利但瞌睡不是處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11079.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11095.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
他確實是加諸你一個金錢負擔義務那他裡面的邏輯是這樣他是說今天你作為誠實納稅人你有協力義務你要自己告訴國家說你賺多少錢對不對你的所得有對不對那你說我今天是犯罪人所以我就不用告知 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11096.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11119.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他不就賺到了嗎?我就先說我犯罪,抱歉我都連陳述都不陳述所以他這裡面有一個基本的背後講法就是不管你是不是誠實這一件事情,原則上你今天就是要先做協力那為了要調和不自證己罪,所以他變成的是你到場陳述提出證據方法,這個地方就切一個提出證據方法這件事情我們不強制 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11120.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11140.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你說我自己可能會有因為我可能販賣人口或是怎樣怎樣有什麼偽造文書這個事實的話這個部分他不強制你去做這個可是他基本上的概念還是回到就是說協力對象其實是瞌睡事實那當然最後面就是說這個協力如果你不去做協力的話會後面我們會開啟的一個就是你違反協力而且你主觀上可規則可能會有被處罰的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11148.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11149.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11172.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11196.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
內部推計就是按照你自己個人以往的經營成果外部推計就是別人因為你內部你第一年營業有什麼以前的經營成果基本上還是看同業同行你們同業同行做這件事情大概會增多少那裡面有一個概念就是說你在這裡面就是說我要推計的時候我倒是要比較高一點的推還是低一點的推德國人是在爭這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11198.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11217.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
進訴訟的時候你不給的話這個地方推他是從高推還是從低推一般來講鑑於因為帳部是一種成本你請一位會計師幫你記帳報稅不用錢嗎應該沒有人做這樣的公益事業所以他是一個成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11217.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11238.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以當你記帳本身是個成本的時候你就不能不考慮推的時候基本上是稍微高一點推不然的話他沒有辦法反映那個真實成本啦所以推計某種概念他確實會崇高去推但不能說這樣就叫處罰喔他只是一個市場上最高就是你們做這套的大概賺多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11238.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11240.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
謝謝柯教授接下來我們請張委員這輪發言五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11273.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11292.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
主席各位先進大家好今天要討論的是稅務行政事件審理法草案目前針對稅務行政事件是由行政法院的稅務專業法庭以行政訴訟法來審理而為了讓稅務行政事件處理更為妥善 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11293.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11310.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
行政院提出專法來保障人民基本權利讓稅務行政訴訟制度更專業有效率所以本席在這邊要提出的建議是有關於此草案的第7條此草案第7條提到高等行政法院高等行政訴訟庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11311.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11327.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
管轄通常訴訟程序第一審稅務行政事件及程序進行中所產生之其他事件因委任律師為訴訟代理人並適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理制規定但 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11328.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11354.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
受命法官準備程序時準用行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項第八項第49條之二第一項關於行政法院或審判長權限制規定其中行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項第八項第49條之二第一項即認定會計師得為訴訟行政事件之訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11355.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11372.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
代理人所以本席認為制定專法就是為了讓稅務行政事件的審理更為簡單更為單純有效率那麼就不需要在法條條文中準用行政訴訟法應直接於條文中明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11373.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11398.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
既然行政訴訟法中都已經明定稅務行政事件具備會計師資格者得為訴訟代理人那麼就直接在稅務行政事件審理法草案中直接訂定之將草案第7條改為高等法院高等行政訴訟管轄之通常訴訟程序第一審 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11400.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11420.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
稅務行政事件及程序進行中所生之其他事件應委任律師或會計師為訴訟代理人並適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理之規定更能保障人民之基本權利以上 謝謝好 謝謝張委員接下來我們有請王軒亞主任委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11434.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11456.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
主席 各位與會先進 專家學者 大家午安今天呢 我想要就這個稅務事件審理法的這個草案從我這個多年職業的經驗來談起因為談我們有關於稅務行政究竟需要解決的問題我以五下來進行分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11457.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11484.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
第一個是我們在案件當中其實會常看到就是同一個年度其實會有所謂的一合二合怎麼說呢就是當事人可能在收到第一次的合訂通知書的時候他可能在這個救濟過程當中就是複查、訴願、行政訴訟一審、二審的過程當中他有可能再次接受到第二次的稅局針對同一個年度然後提起 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11485.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11504.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
就在科與第二次的合訂通知書因此有些當事人還是可能會就這個第二個的合訂通知書進行救濟你就會發現在同一個年度裡頭有第一次的合訂通知書跟第二次的合訂通知書在不同的行政救濟階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11506.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11521.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
當事人如果就這樣同一個事件 譬如說以同一個年度來講他可能就要走兩次的行政救濟 這在我們跟當事人的互動經驗裡頭他確實會覺得增加他的勞力時間費用 還有一些焦慮的心情一直持續著 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11522.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11540.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那現在呢,過往我們其實也有在,不管是在學校學習或職業經驗,其實剛剛吳委員也有提到,其實會重視一個程序的保障,可是這個程序的保障該怎麼進行做,又如何兼顧到說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11541.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11557.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
在這種情形就是不可以有可能增加同一種分爭竟可能在同一次解決的可能性我覺得在這一次的草案裡頭我們看到了一個曙光但是我們要怎麼樣同時因應到這樣的程序可能一併審理是不是有影響到 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11558.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11583.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
當事人的程序性的保障那其實我們根據觀察啦其實我們在審理當中時程的安排當中其實可以針對這個部分呢第二次合定通知書給予多一點的準備程序緩和這個程序保障的影響這是第一個想要提到的部分我們覺得在這個稅審法裡頭草案我們看到了一個不一樣的點第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11584.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11601.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
是我們實務上其實常常會涉及到計政機關要做成的行政處分他會受到其他行政機關就具體的個案的事實認定要做一個或者是法律適用的舉訴就是譬如說典型的就是多階段的行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11601.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11626.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那過往其實我們通常針對這種案件我們自己身為訴訟代理人我們都會在程序性申請就是希望這個前一個階段的行政機關要訴訟參加那在這次的草案裡頭我們第6條我們其實也看到這樣的情形納入這也就可以增加了一個可預測性也就是說當遇到多階段行政處分其實在法院審理當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11629.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11656.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
會命行政機關輔助依照進行參加我覺得這也是我覺得改善我們實務上會出現的情形那第三個呢就是剛剛前面也都有談到的我在具體講譬如說我們在訴知聲明在稅務訴訟撰寫上然後等到行政法院獲得勝訴判決的主文的時候會拿到什麼呢就是訴願決定及原處分及復查 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11660 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11675.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
訴願決定及原處分及複查決定徹銷這地方有沒有特別注意到我講及原處分及複查決定也就是說其實在過往當中我們其實並沒有辦法直接針對原處分進行徹交他其實只能徹交到複查決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11676.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11691.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
因此我們看到這次的草案第8條其實我們也看到有機會在針對這個所謂的萬年稅端的問題獲得一個解決我覺得這也是我們稅審法的這個草案裡頭有一個很大的突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11692.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11712.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
第4個我想要談一下這個協力義務的部分針對協力義務其實我們簡單來講我們細膩看一下其實納稅人可以簡單分成兩類就是個人跟盈利事業那在個人的部分其實我們的納稅義務其實譬如說依照有 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11713.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11738.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們用流程來看好了 可以分成稅籍登記 記帳就是記帳要保持這些帳簿然後甚至要取得要給予保存這個憑證的部分甚至申報配合義務還有接受調查義務還有繳納稅捐的義務在個人的情況其實你可以發現前面的三個稅局登記其實不需要有個人沒有要稅代理稅籍登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11739.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11764.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
記帳的部分其實我們一般個人來說也不需要設置那第三個至於取得或保存這些憑證的部分其實在列舉扣除的部分其實會需要的那當然接下來就會有所謂的申報義務甚至要配合調查的這個義務還有繳納稅款的義務這是個人以個人來講的協力義務我們從法規上的可以看到的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11765.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11780.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
至於盈利事業呢?盈利事業我們剛剛講到這個6個部分其實都會對應到就是需要都是他的負擔的範圍就是稅籍登記然後記帳然後取據發給保存憑證申報還有配合調查跟繳納稅捐的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11786.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11806.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
在這個地方其實我們可以發現其實針對於個人的部分跟盈利事業其實負擔的範圍不太一樣在個人部分其實應該是要基本上盡量要不干預人民就是這種非國家社會領域的部分等於是說他可能在這個協力義務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11808.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11808.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11826.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11826.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
秘密外泄 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11842.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11842.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11859.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11859.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
稅務行政事件審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11878.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11893.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以我在想這邊補充一下說在這個協力應務部分我們覺得說其實剛剛前面的先進都有提到一些部分我們覺得我就補充說明一下其實可以再有一些基礎的概念去做一個思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11895.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11909.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
第5個推計的部分目前的課稅其實還是要以核實課稅為原則這在納保法21條第3項有提到而推計課稅其實是例外它在納保法的第14條的部分有 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11910.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11910.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
稅務行政事件審理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11935.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11954.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
讓這件事情在法院的審酌過程當中﹐可以有一個比較客觀公平的原則進行做參考但我另外也想要提出來是說﹐其實不論是個人或盈利事業﹐其實財政部啊﹐他其實都掌握了多年以來大家的稅務﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11956.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11956.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11977.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11999.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
相關的專家學者來進行就這些部分來進行一個協力義務他這個如何推計課稅的一個基本的標準來可以未來也可以拿出來做一個參考也可以降低擔心可能剛剛前面提到的法官在進行這裡的時候有沒有可能有譬如說稅審官的避免疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12000.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12030.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
最後呢想要說一下就是其實蠻肯定司法院努力付諸行動跨出一個很大一步要解決我們剛剛就是當然還不只這些但是要解決稅法上很多長年的問題那我覺得草案過程當中雖然我沒有就是偶爾出參與部分的會議但我覺得我看到是大家其實都能夠自由表達意見還有表達不同的想法尋求最大的共識那現在草案也進到立法院了我們也期待這一步好 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12030.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12030.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
聖子榮議員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12053.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12054.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12070.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12087.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
因為這個法律讓法官很累為什麼很累呢 因為我們過去的法官基本上就是採撤銷發回的模式只要發現課稅主有一點毛病 撤銷回去 重查 重查 就這樣而且撤銷只撤銷到互查決定 不會撤銷到原本的稅單 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12089.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12106.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這案子就變成鬼打牆 無限巡迴那下次來又挑一個小毛病 在這下又發回這為什麼叫萬年稅單 就是法院沒有足夠的專業能力去審稅務的案件他沒有辦法自己把最後的稅額給決定出來這就是大家最詬病的萬年稅單的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12110.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12133.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
同一個課稅年度 或者同一個遺產稅的課稅事件 修機關可能他的稅單不會一次來但這也是合理的 因為納稅可能隱藏了很多的事證 修機關可能是慢慢發現事證我又發現100萬了 我再補100萬 我又發現100萬了 我再補100萬所以同一個課稅年度也好 同一個遺產稅也好 可能稅單是一合 二合 三合 四合 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12135.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12143.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
納稅怎麼辦 因為這些稅單都是分開的 因此它是分開審納稅每一個稅單都要重新互查 訴願 辛苦地打一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12144.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12173.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那偏偏這幾個案子又分屬不同的法院審理而彼此之間這稅單往往有連動性它又往往有加加減減的連動性藉著導致了如果法院審查分歧或判決不一的時候造成納稅人權力保障的各種高度的風險而且付出的訴訟成本更是不計其數那要解決問題就是說我們引進了德國財務法院法的總額主義這個在德國實施多年啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12174.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12199.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
坦白說 很多問題要怎麼解決我們大概看德國人的操作模式大概很快就找到答案所以 為什麼法院 很多法官很害怕但是司法院還是願意做這件事情就是說 總要跨出這一步吧不然 就繼續留在原來的位置也可以啊對法官來很輕鬆 就撤銷後悔 撤銷後悔納稅就不斷地很累他可能一個案子打了20年他可能一個事件 接了五六張稅單打個沒完沒了 那不改也可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12203.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12228.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那我們今天跨出這一步 其實司法案肯做我其實我們參與的團隊是非常感動的因為這法官很辛苦啦我真的是跳火坑要來終局的解決問題自為判決我覺得如果這一點不肯定而看中一些小細節的話對這個法案真正追求的精神是非常大的傷害也是非常的惋惜而且有時候時間錯過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12229.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12234.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
不見得就是適當的立法時機有可能我們納稅人長期的又繼續忍受那種萬年稅單而且多張稅單不斷重複干擾的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12239.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12260.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
接下來剛才有文委員特別提到對於二合或三合的稅單採法定數字變更 自動進入法律審查的範圍會不會使人民程序表上縮水這是多慮了 為什麼這麼說因為我們目前的稅單原則上沒有事前依據行政程序法的規定 進行正當法律程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12261.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12289.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以通常是稅單先課了你再來互查數月也就是那個正當程序是在後面做在互查程序做事前都非常的簡略我們通常都是由基增機關分局或者是分處的人發出第一次的通知書那個基本上都是由對法律不熟的人而且對正當法律程序不熟的人也沒有進行正當法律程序的人發出第一張稅單等於你不服再來互查再由法律人考慮程序有沒有什麼地方在互查階段才去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12291.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12312.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
今天如果我們把它變成法定數字變更會產生什麼問題說互查書院縮水了這可能只是表面上的觀察第一個我們在草案當中增加了事前必須做好非常完備的行政程序也就是納稅的參與不是在互查階段跟書院階段它變成是事前程序參與用事前程序參與來補事後程序的不足第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12315.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12326.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
其實也是多慮的各位委員可能不清楚其實稅務機關是很怕進入法院的當你的第二張稅單自動成為法院審理的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12327.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12352.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那是代表什麼意思 就是說你只要加一張稅單之後 法案就會審這張稅單了你怕不怕 當然怕呀 我們稅務機關怕死法院了所以今天你要做一個稅單 它自動就會變成法案審理的範圍你覺得稅務機關事前會怎麼做 一定會非常謹慎現在二合三合 反正我就隨便做 做錯了 婦查書院慢慢再來改當事人很累 讓你撐啊 不是我撐啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12353.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12370.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
但是今天如果今天二合三合是自動成為法院審理的範圍也就是你馬上要報告法院說我二合三合增加了多少稅喔法官下一次開庭就會問這個東西喔哇 那你不千萬小心你自己難道送去給法院打臉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12371.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12387.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
所以坦白說 如果了解心理學的話你就會知道其實社會機關以後做二合三合絕對會非常的小心而不像現在這麼隨便這對當事人的權利事實上絕對會增加不會縮水這個叫做心理學 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12388.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12410.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
如果瞭解稅務人員的心理的話 這個委員可以去訪查一下說那以後會不會隨便二合三合他沒有把握不敢隨便二合三合啦 為什麼因為接下來就不是面對自己的人 而是直接面對法官當然很可怕 所以就會避免二合三合胡亂開單的情況下沒有足夠慎重 沒有足夠把握 他其實不會輕易出手 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12411.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12436.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這反而對納稅權利是一種保障有時候法律不是看形式而是要更深刻考慮心理學之後瞭解人的行為的反應才會真正看到法律實效的部分另外一個問題那因為時間有限很多地方我可能沒辦法回答我如果有時間我用書面補答我回到那個協力優跟不知正己罪今天可能我要再特別補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12437.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12461.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
首先我覺得我們台灣的稅法我個人一直覺得長期忽略的叫做租稅公平的維護什麼叫租稅公平的維護就是說當台灣有很多納稅人誠實的納稅人乖乖的守法但有不誠實的納稅人想盡辦法不守法鑽各種法律的好處的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12462.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12489.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們稅法上必須有一個非常確保租稅公平的機制讓其他誠實乖乖角色的人的平等權不會受到侵害其實德國憲法案有一個判決我覺得我非常的同意就是說如果稅法的設計沒有一個機制確保這個稅法能夠公平的執行也就是只有傻瓜誠實的人受拘束只要他聰明都沒事 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12491.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12517.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那這個就是在欺侮誠實納稅人的平等權這反而才是違憲的法律因此怎麼讓稅法能夠好好的確保租稅公平在德國的稅制設計當中不管是從實體法程序法到訴訟法他們都非常關心這個事情我覺得我們今天討論這個問題也以過去我們稅法界討論這個問題一直忽略其他納稅人的平等權也應該受到保障而不是只有看到那個案子爭議當事人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12518.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12542.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
全力那其他納稅人乖乖繳稅也不必忙必忙的人呢他的平等權難道就該被犧牲嗎因此從這個角度出發我們才談出為什麼協力優那麼重要因為協力優就是促使納稅優人必須誠實的把他手上資料拿出來讓稅務機關能夠查核讓租稅的公平真正能夠確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12544.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12568.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
而這樣的協力股 如果因為納稅人有涉及到犯罪的行為 所以他就沒有協力股了那各位 那誰剩下 協力股剩下誰有就善良老百姓有協力股 那不善良的人呢 他就沒有協力股善良的納稅人為了遵守協力股 要付出很多成本可能因為一時的不小心 他還要被處罰可是壞蛋說 我沒有協力股 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12569.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12595.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那警務協議是在教訓納稅善良的人民嗎這是在教訓好人的嗎所以回到原點就是說為什麼在德國的聯邦憲法法院在一個判決當中他特別提到不治政己罪雖然是法治國的核心但是如果他跟其他的法律為了確保公平所設立的協議有所衝突的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12596.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12621.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
並不能直接火定協力義務而是兩者之間要找一個平衡的協調而不是直接火定協力的存在因此本法才會參考德國的規定做一些比較折衷的設計當然時間可能快到我最後再特別強調一下我們這個法律的設計其實如果還有疑慮的話未來可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12622.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12637.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
解決可能一律有一個很簡便的方法因為剛才我們陳教授提到可以把划緩的程序學歐盟德國的制度整個交給刑事程序由法院來做處罰但這個後果要想清楚我常常講一句話叫做 夜宮好龍 龍來的會嚇死 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12644.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12664.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
為什麽呢 它代表所有的划環都走刑事程序 這代表什麽 代表稅務機關就變成警察機關 而且檢察機關就要介入了那所以你真的喜歡這樣的制度嗎 想清楚 不要看德國說我規定對當事人很好 那整個刑事程序化真的是我們要的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12665.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12674.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
另外如果擔心協力義務繼續保留可能對納稅人涉及滑款的事件可能比較會產生問題我會建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12678.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12703.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
如果我們在證明標準上面 把本稅跟划緩的證明標準區隔開來也就是本稅的證明度 可以因為納稅委婉協議而降低但是在划緩的時候 基本上還是必須嚴格遵守我們處罰的證明標準其實在證明標準當中做區隔 很多的問題就可以迎刃而解那現已時間啦 很多觀點無法表達我有空再用書面來做補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12707.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12709.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
主席、各位委員、各位在座的與會先進,大家好很榮幸受邀來參加今天的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12730.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12752.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我現在擔任的是台北律師公會行政法委員會的主委那這個案子的草案其實是在行政訴訟當中進行所以我覺得我來今天參與會議良多那我首先要先講我是大體上我是支持也是肯定所有為這個草案付出的努力的學者跟前輩 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12752.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12762.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
因為萬年稅單的問題存在已久從解決萬年稅單這件事情本身上來看我覺得這個草案就值得肯定、值得推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12764.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12790.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這是我首先要表達我的一個立場基本立場但是我還是要說一下我對這些議題當中特別有幾個議題的想法那我還是先回來萬年稅單那這麼多的學者專家付出的努力要解決萬年稅單的問題就是過去我們實務上在行政訴訟當中在稅務案件當中呢當事人就是為了解決這個稅務案件然後提起行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12791.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12791.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12822.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12836.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我還是讓你有一次再為重新處分的權利用白話講就是這樣你再回去想一想該怎麼去計算吧你還有機會再做一次處分那這樣子官司就打不完了我花了三年打完一個官司 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12837.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12862.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
行政機關在花半年調查再給我一個好可能比原來的金額少了10萬或20萬我還是不服我再打三年三年三年又三年可以打多少個三年啊這就是為什麼是萬年稅單所以我過去在演講也好或是研討會也好我講說希臘神話有一個薛西弗斯的故事就他得罪了觸怒了宙斯所以他被 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12864.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12874.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
招數的處罰就是他要推一顆巨大的石頭到山頂上每次成功了之後重來一次成功重來一次那為什麼要處罰我們的人民呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12876.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12902.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這個是在神話當中認為是一種最殘忍的一種處罰的方式可是我們的司法實務當中卻用萬年稅單的方式讓這個情況存在了數十年之久所以我還是要再次感謝參與這個草案的學者專家付出了非常大的努力這一點我是百分之百的高度的肯定跟支持不過我想在這個地方啊我只講兩個問題就是萬年稅單跟不自證己罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12903.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12922.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
萬年稅單我們如果可以透過這一次的修法解決那我覺得是最好最好的方式因為任何人如果今天是你打官司你都不需要遇到說要重來重來兩次三次沒有人會希望雖然律師可能會因此而多賺一些律師費可是我覺得這太不人道了而且賺這個錢說真的良心過意不去 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12923.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12943.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
好那我們今天認為說不要有萬年稅單存在是一個共識那怎麼做到呢我認為如果到了行政訴訟的階段最好最好的狀況就是法院一錘定音就告訴你說這個案子該繳多少該罰多少不要再去查了就到此為止那這個訴訟呢就符合我們憲法上保障人民訴訟權 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12945.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12959.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
最核心的就是及時而且有效的救濟到此為止拜託不要再折磨了其實國稅局的同仁有時候也很累你發回之後呢他又有義務要查他還會不能說他不查那查了之後呢大家再打一次官司 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12960.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12982.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那真的是律師賺錢但是對當事人於心不忍我真的要這樣說所以最好的方式是怎麼樣在這個草案當中讓法官可以自為判決因為法官是最後最後一道防線嘛由他做的判決我相信國稅局尊重人民也會接受到此為止畫下的句點是最好的上上之策 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12983.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12999.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
不過我這邊要講一下我們今天利用這個難得的機會不妨思考一個問題行政訴訟除了稅務案件以外還有其他類型的案件有建築法規的有土地法規的有通傳的有勞工各方面的行政法院九成以上都設定處 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13001.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13020.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
為什麼可以測定處啊我好不容易打贏了官司你做錯了喔抱歉再去查一下查清楚一點可以再做一次處分我又要再打一次官司那為什麼稅務案件的萬年稅單會到其他的行政訴訟案件就不適用呢這法理難道不應該要擴及到其他的行政訴訟的類型嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13022.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13047.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好我再舉一個例子我們今天如果是民事的官司我跟盛老師打官司我說盛老師欠我錢我輸了我三審定業了我是不能夠重新再對他起訴一次那很嚴格很嚴格的我不是被法院要求我說欸 劉昌平你再想辦法查清楚一點再去告一次盛老師民事訴訟不可以刑事訴訟可不可以各位都看過美國的電影嘛如果我今天檢察官說今天某假殺了人 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13048.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13058.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
檢察官沒有辦法證明檢察官可以另外找再去查清楚以後再起訴他一次嗎不行吧要很嚴格很嚴格吧那為什麼行政訴訟可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13060.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13084.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
民事案件不行行事案件不行就是行政案件可以到今天為止我們注意到的是稅法上的萬年稅單可是其他的案件難道我們不需要一併關心檢討注意嗎這個我覺得以後我們有機會可以再來集思廣益第二個我想談一下這個不治政己罪原則為什麼要不治政己罪這個人是壞人他可能殺了人強盜 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13087.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13102.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那為什麼我們不能讓他自證己罪呢按照一般的通說是來自於人性尊嚴是尊重人性尊嚴於是不讓他自證己罪這個先後順序我覺得必須要釐清好 第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13103.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13116.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
剛剛有談到說是不是因為行事訴訟跟行政訴訟的性質不同所以行事訴訟我們百分之百承認不自證其罪但行政訴訟在某些情況下我們予以放寬那我就用拒絕證人權來做一個比較民事訴訟法307條有拒絕證人權這個是私人跟私人的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13128.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13140.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
刑事訴訟法181條有不自認己罪的原則就是你可以不要去講對自己不利益的話好各位性質不同但是都是國家公權力的形式一個叫罰緩一個叫罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13143.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13167.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們可以從文字上說它不同可是行政訴訟的罰款有時候是幾億幾十億幾百億或者一個停權處分可能讓一個公司營收下降或者是關門倒閉這個效果不亞於形式我們要從效果實質論出發不要再拘泥於那個文字一個是形式訴訟一個是行政訴訟兩者性質有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13168.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13183.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好那我除了這個經文的比較之外我另外再問一個問題刑事訴訟這個殺人犯是殺了人家的兒子女兒可能是我們覺得十惡不赦那公益性豈不是更強那為什麼要保障他 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13184.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13186.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13207.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13207.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13224.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13249.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我們可以宣誓到這個概念但是我們如果今天在文字的敘述上草案的文字敘述上讓人家誤認為說我退讓了我對於這個不制政舉行的原則我退讓了那會不會有法規範體系的衝突啊那我們要怎麼去跟我們的其他的當事人說行案你犯了罪但是這個可能會讓你去坐牢 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13250.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13250.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13266.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13282.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
好那最後再問兩個問題如果今天我們的草案按這樣的文字說明方式通過我真的很擔心那以後所有透過行政訴訟要去追徵的公法上金錢給付義務要不要比較辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13284.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13309.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
如果稅是重要的公法上金錢給付義務那其他的公法上金錢給付義務要不要比照辦理因為我也覺得不公平啊最後剩30秒我再請各位一起思考一個問題這個問題我沒有答案先有人性尊嚴才有憲法憲法肯定人性尊嚴因此它有存在的重要性跟必要性如果是這樣的邏輯的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13312.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13336.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
人性尊嚴 憲法跟稅法我們今天怎麼去跟我們自己學法律的我自己啦 對不起 我自己說喔 那個在稅法上因為要保障誠實的納稅人所以呢 不治政級這個原則呢不要受到保障而應該退讓我認為不應該用這樣的方式可以用其他的方式但是這樣的文字敘述真的我們值得仔細再思考以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13339.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13341.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
謝謝劉恆虎律師最後我們邀請黃耀輝黃教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13361.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13380.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
主席 各位與會先進 大家午安很榮幸 也很高興受邀參加司法法制委員會的公聽會這是我第一次參加司法法制委員會公聽會我也是在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13382.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13401.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
參與的學者裡面唯一不是學法律出身的我是北商財稅系我在學校教財政學跟稅法還有一些其他的經濟科目那我準備了PowerPoint跟大家做簡單的說明首先就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13408.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13430.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這次這個稅審法我簡稱稅務行政事件審理法我簡稱它叫做稅審法稅審法呢我們從它的立法宗旨跟背景可以看到第一個它的優點就是就是三面俱到它建構更專業效能符合國際趨勢的稅務行政訴訟制度想要徹底解決我們這個稅務紛爭這萬年稅單的問題然後也同時貫徹人民就納稅人權利的保障維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13438.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13439.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
公聽會．事由．事由 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13457.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13458.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
《稅務行政事件審理法草案》公職委員會公職委員會公職委員會公職委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13476.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13480.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
總而主義的配套措施也提出了很多對行政法院的審理權限也給它擴大 讓它可以加上稅務審查官的專業的學法律的 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13500.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13501.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
法律需要一些財經訓練的人的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13518.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13531.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
在彌補法官在財經、會計、財務管理等方面的不足讓法官可以更有信心更具有專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13533.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13558.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
通過審查官的協力幫助讓他可以做至為終極的判決可以減少將來這個稅務訴訟很大的社會成本然後在這個同時他也加強當事人的協力義務所以也不是說一面倒舉證責任落在稅金基金之外稅金納稅人就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13561.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13561.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
公聽會委員： |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13585.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13586.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13606.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13629.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
但是從學一個財政經濟學者的角度來看為什麼我個人是認為這個稅審法它重點應該還是要考量到說我們這邊是不是有政府有做到說保護這個資訊不對稱的弱勢者尤其就是納稅人在我們財政學福利經濟就強調就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13631.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13647.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
政府透過保護資訊不對稱的弱勢或劣勢者可以增進社會福利所以納保法跟消保法其他的出發點都是一致的就是要保護消費者不完全進入市場的消費者跟保護面對稅法專業高強障礙的納稅人 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13655.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13683.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
有限程度的向納稅義務人傾斜來保護但是也必須要兼顧租稅的公平保障稅守所以這個當然也需要刻意相對的義務所以這個納保法是從福利經濟學的角度來看它是一大進步尤其那個21條本身把那訴訟標的增田主義改採總值總管主義這個是最大進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13684.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13705.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
但是確實需要透過我們這個稅審法來落實成為一套很健全的制度所以我們評論這個稅審法的出發點我們還是要看這個審理實務上是不是因為符合我們效力經濟訴訟效力的經濟的前提下來更平衡的 橫平的保護納稅所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13707.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13736.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我們來看到第8條一開始提出它是行政訴訟法這個是特別法值得肯定第8條很明顯的可以破除萬年稅單這個是功德無量值得肯定第19條到24條落實種兒主義然後建構配套措施我們可以看到它具有一些橫頻的效果然後也可以減少一些經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13737.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13740.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
第11到15條加強當事人協力的義務行政法院可以徹底解決紛爭的權限透過這個設計加上25條的審查官 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13761.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13781.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個很有助於法官將來可以做終極的自為判決這個也是功德無量所以非常肯定那第10條暫時權力保護制度這個部分就是很明顯的橫貧兼顧租稅保全與救濟時效這個也非常值得支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13781.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13782.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
律師代理範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13805.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13814.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
條文是這樣規定說高等行政法院高等行政訴訟管轄之通常程序就是金額目前來講是大於40萬這個稅額 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13818.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13839.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
第一審稅務行政事件對當事人權益影響較大且具複雜性及專業性為保障當事人權利及促進訴訟應定應委任律師為訴訟代理這說明是這樣說但是這裡面有一些問題將來可以考慮做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13840.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13841.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
促進訴訟的效率降低經濟成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13860.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13882.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
不需要在字面上太精簡結果造成誤會他的目的應該是希望能夠促進訴訟的經濟效力讓官司不要這樣對所有的當事人稅務機關納稅人或是法官構成很大的負擔而且這樣不斷的重複整個社會都負擔很大的成本所以這裡面當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13885.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13909.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
委任：強制委任律師為訴訟帶領這是出發點是善良的但是有一個問題就是說在資訊不對稱：是對納稅人不利的情況下這邊又要再增加原告經濟負擔的方式他必須再去找那個找委任律師不可那這樣的話呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13910.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13933.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我們會變成說用透過增加納稅人負擔的方式來保障他這個好像手段跟目的之間並不是調和所以我建議是說可以參考像我們高等法院管轄第一審案件被告與審判中未經選任辯護人者審判者應指定公設辯護人或律師那是不是我們可以考慮就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13934.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13936.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13954.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13976.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
稅務審查官 協助法官一樣由這些專業的人來協助納稅人這樣是不是更能夠達到你本來就是要保障納稅的目的但是又希望他影響權益制度他為了省錢而不找律師另外一個部分就是我們參考納保法第18條這個稅務專業法庭的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13978.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13980.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
法官必須有稅務專業 要取得專業法官的證明書 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14000.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14012.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
委任律師來擔任你的訴訟代理人那任何律師他不懂稅的也可以嗎那這樣的話納稅呢就是說你條文這麼規定我就找一個認識的律師這個律師什麼什麼會計什麼專業稅務都不懂那這樣會不會是不是變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14017.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14031.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
增加納稅人負擔又對納稅人毫無幫助所以比照稅務專業法庭對法官有專業的要求我們是不是也應該要求就是說委任這個律師必須也具有稅務專業的至少證書或證明他有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14039.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14064.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
稅務專業能力的政見才能夠代表所以這邊我是希望司法院能夠在這邊再親近一點對於委任律師應該從平衡對稱的角度去做一些土偽設計如果政府要強制台灣要增加納稅義務人會傷害到納稅人造成這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14065.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14066.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14091.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14097.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
所以在這個稅務基金法執行第21條還有所不足因為關稅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14101.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14120.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
行政訴訟 稅務基金法管不著所以法院應該再把納保法第18條衍生的行政專業法庭的設置辦法提到行政訴訟案件的定義範圍我這邊框起來剛剛忘記往前轉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14131.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14147.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
在這個框起來的這個部分這個是那個專業法庭設置及它的那個辦法裡面有提到就是它訴訟稅務行政訴訟事件包括這個國稅或地方稅之課稅等等等等這邊就對於我們這樣關稅屬於這個國稅這部分它就涵蓋進去了還其他經司法院指定應由稅務專業法庭審理之事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14158.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14178.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
這個部分的規定跟我們稅審法裡面所規定的這個事件的範圍基本上是涵蓋廣義稅法行政程序法120條程序重開事件等這個內容就兩個不是一致啦 並不是很一致啦我進入司法院 既然這個就是納保法衍生的一個特 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14180.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14180.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14199.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14200.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
稅務行政事件審理法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14217.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14238.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
包括在座法律的學者當你進到法律系的第一天的時候看到老師在講的那一課都是文言文的法律用語那時候一定第一個感想就是說哎呀好希望齁能夠把它寫成大家看得懂的白話文的法律用詞可是當我們進去久了之後呢一讀讀下去我們就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14239.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14261.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
法律專業人習慣那條用語結果在寫成法律條文的時候我們就忘掉說當初高牆之外看不懂法律條文的人的痛苦所以像這個條文裡面我就看到保障納稅比如說它有講到說第一審撤銷訴訟細數中這個東西字典上查不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14268.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14283.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
也沒做任何解釋就假設全國老百姓都要懂這個只有法律人才懂的專業術語現在這個部分請盡量避免因為我們就是要保護納稅人納稅人在稅務方面就處於弱勢然後法律用語又對他 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14285.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14307.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
又是讓他更難理解這部份 保障來講是有所減損的所以我建議像這個可以找一些不是非法律的或是一些消保團體或是那些從他們的角度來看一下說我們這個法律用語有點讓人家沒辦法馬上看懂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14309.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14318.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這個會變成一個保護納稅人的一個障礙無形的障礙那個需要我們外面的人外行人去發現所以希望這個部分能夠減少這個聲色的用語謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14322.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14347.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
好 謝謝黃教授 那麼所有學者專家及登記發言的委員均與發言完畢那審判會委員所提的書面意見我們也列入公報記錄那接下來進行政府機關代表的發言那如果發言完畢還要補充我們再看時間那麼目前請就所送的書面資料以外的部分做補充發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14348.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14371.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
主席這邊會逐一詢問列席的各機關有沒有要做補充發言的那如果需要補充發言的我們時間是5分鐘那今日提出書面的有4個機關我就逐一的詢問請問司法院有沒有要補充發言那個書面以外的話那個剛才我們幾位教授有提到說強制律師代理我們在這邊講還是在這邊好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14375.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14386.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
因為我們今天的公聽會還是請副秘書長到發言台那後面如果有再補充發言的部分我們就來跟主席在這邊說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14389.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14411.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
主席各位專家學者謝謝讓我們有這個機會來做一個補充說明那麼詳細的東西如書面但是剛才我們幾位的專家學者有提到的一些問題那我在這邊再做一些補充第一點剛才幾位教授有提到說那這種稅務案件有沒有必要在金額不是很大的時候就強制律師代理那我跟各位報告我們目前這個規劃的第7條是強制律師代理是指那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14417.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14432.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
高等行政法院的高等行政訴訟庭的案件通常案件才強制律師代理那這個依照我們現在的規定不是40萬是150萬150萬因為高等行政法院的高等行政訴訟庭管轄的第一場案件是150萬以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14433.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14435.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14452.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14469.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
關於委員提到說那個稅審官的部分稅審官的部分當然大家剛才有提到他的獨立性當然也有專家學者提到說以智慧財產法院技術審查官的操作經驗實際上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14471.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14492.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
撤銷智慧財產局的比例很高 剛才因為吳宗憲委員提到說 情形不一樣智慧財產案件 智慧財產局不是當事人 這邊我要跟各位報告事實上目前的智慧財產行政訴訟 智慧財產局就是當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14495.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14516.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
自衛財產行政部曾經希望修正成自衛財產局不是當事人但是目前沒有通過所以目前他還是當事人那他派出來的技術轉換到法案去那撤銷剛才有看數據撤銷那個自衛財產局的那個處分的比例達1%那那個為什麼會這樣其實最重要的原因就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14517.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14535.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
調派到那個智慧財團法院的時候是由法官在監督的那麼他法官不會輕易的容許說他的東西他沒有辦法說服法官的話完全照那個原機關的單位是法官不會接受那所以實際上操作並不太會有這種情形當然當然各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14536.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14541.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
移綠的這部分我們也會照委員的這件事因為我們現在的那個禁用管道就是包含包含的那個借調還有聘用那這個聘用的部分我如果大家有這個期待我們也是盡量盡量的會往這個管道去做聘用那聘用以後上一次的徵詢有一些委員在講說那跟我們現在的那個公務員法制跟考試院那個是不是相符 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14562.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14567.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那我跟各位報告我們目前智慧財團法院就有一位是聘用的那他聘用他不是用那個檢建委的這個規定所以他沒有職等所以在現在的這個法制底下我們去聘用假設說有稅務人員所以那個這方面的會計專業人員來過來的話他不會有檢建委這些職等所以沒有現行法制上面的這個抵觸的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14588.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14596.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
然後關於那個協力義務剛才很多的委員也有在做說明那除了我順便報告的這部分以外實際上面我們現在的實務上面的操作就是區分說稅額的確定部分稅額的確定部分協力義務是比較理所當然的但是在處罰的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14609.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14637.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那剛才有有很多的委員有提到有提到說今天假設這個處罰是跟著稅額的確定比如說他今天產生多少的稅額漏掉了那漏掉了以後那麼跟著跟著會確定補這些稅額以外另外再有處罰的話那麼以現在是合併合併審理的這些情形確實會先就稅額確定部分希望他進協力物希望他進協力物那那那個就 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14638.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14662.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
至於說你協力義務進了 那麼確定那個稅額了 那個稅額當然會跟著後面的這部分但是跟各位報告 至於說處罰的部分 處罰的要件不是只有稅額確定而已啊處罰要件還頒發故意過失 像這些的要件 那這些要件沒有什麼協力義務的問題你當然稅增機關 你要進 我要完全去取證責任 所以目前實務上面的這些操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14663.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14664.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14679.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14684.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那至於說要不要向其他國家區分成確定訴訟程序跟處罰的訴訟程序區別開那剛才也有聖教授有提到這樣的結果是讓處罰程序完全用刑事訴訟的強制處分對當事人的影響可能更大所以這一部分大概去做補通另外他們也有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14703.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14703.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14717.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14745.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
十四點百分之十四點零八如果加上和解調解大家各有勝敗的其實已經勝訴率達到百分之十九點八九所以外界認為說那通通都是駁回那人民的這個救濟都沒有發生這個時效我想跟事實上的情形是有一些的這個落差因為時間有限那簡單的補充到這邊那請各位委員的寶貴意見我們都會回去好好的去研議以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14746.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14766.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
好,謝謝我們黃副秘書長那請問財政部有無書面以外的補充請問法務部有沒有書面以外的補充沒有請問經濟部有沒有書面以外的補充沒有,好那麼今日公聽會的發言到此告一段落那個有沒有補充陳副沒有補充,好 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14767.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14794.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那因為在場的學者專家部分也沒有要做第二輪補充那我們感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供諸多寶貴的意見那今天各位所有的發言內容和說明意見均列入紀錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及本日出列席人員參考那本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家現在散會謝謝謝謝辛苦了 |