| IVOD_ID |
162419 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162419 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-11T09:50:23+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-11T10:09:47+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9e12dbad9087feebeb4fab53e924c0ec17ecf2f83f27aab3b8c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:50:23 - 10:09:47 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查：
一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案。
二、本院委員邱若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
23.086 |
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25.827 |
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今天要來搶救人命要談一個很觸目驚心嚇人的光電開發案現在紅台聽要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
46.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
75.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
不要造成小林村土石流滅村的事件重演我們要非常嚴肅的看這個有媒體報導也有民眾來陳情非常有急迫性的問題我們共同來解決這個案子是發生在高雄的大樹區51公頃的山坡地陡峭的山坡地喔竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
76.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
83.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
山被鏟平了樹被砍掉了網友你看這個圖這是現場的圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
114.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
右邊啊 這個黃圈圈這一塊啊這個土 山都被鏟平了已經放了 那個就是光光電板 都已經潑上去了另外裸露的這個地區紅色圈起來 綠色圈起來整個那個拖鞋的 那個本來就是山整個山坡地被鏟平了往前 你有看到這裡住這麼多居民嗎 現在居民要陳情那你 或是你的親友 你覺得住在那裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
118.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
143.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
部長 如果是你 後你的親友現在住在那邊你敢不敢住 安全嗎從這張圖來判斷說 現在這裡的房子的安全性啊保定 這個媒體已經大肆的報導了民眾都來陳情了欸 你本來小林村那個妹村事件 土石流 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
145.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
164.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這高雄的大樹區耶第二個現在極端的氣候都是那個暴雨雨就下的都很大對不對突然就來啊結果怎麼會把一座山挖掉這座山坡地很多都是參過30%的我們明定是30%以上的躲的這個山坡地是建築開發的耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
166.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
192.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我跟委員報告齁30公頃以上必須去委會來做環評審查嘛那開發還要開發許可那相對的我們同仁跟我講的就是說這一頁它的整個環評的部分水保計畫是已經被開罰嗎已經被開罰了非常多次啊五次開罰這麼多次然後又危險那為什麼不把它停下來捏阿紅台聽要來了捏不定 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
196.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
203.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個市政府的權責不是農業部可以處理的啊現在有三個主管機關嘛對不對水土保持是你們管的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
205.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
230.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
水土保持 計畫的審查 渡島隊 但是也是市政府在執行市政府當然 高雄市也是一個主管機關 所以高雄市政府開罰嘛 對不對它有兩種罰 一種是罰錢啊 一種就是這麼危險 東京直接停了來啊停的部分是地方政府地方政府跟你都是主管機關啊 你當初合的嘛 那它現在有危險性不是我們合的喔 地方政府合的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
253.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
水土保存是你們合的嗎?沒有,它整個開發案是地方政府合的啊整個合,地方政府合,水土保存你們不用管嗎?沒有,你們來說明一下吧因為我覺得這個是要非常明確全責的單位啦如果說農業部必須要處理的,我們就要盡到我們農業部的責任如果不是農業部能處理的,我們也不能說在這邊隨便承諾要出管機關嘛,對不對?經濟部嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
256.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
268.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
經濟部當然他們負責一部分嘛開發那一塊你們水土保持嘛甚至他現在沒有發現他已經月期去開發破壞的水土保持你們當然要做啊另外一個是地方政府是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
269.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
289.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
對 它所有的最後的核定都是地方政府不管你是水保三開計畫最後的核定都是地方政府我們是督導我們是法規的部分最後的審查跟核定是水保計畫還有執行都是地方政府所以你們督導到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
290.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
304.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你們都不用負責任嗎我們針對我們針對相關的法規的規定啊那如果說有很明確的那個我們可以跟地方政府 因為地方政府是核定人命關天不要推責任第一你的獨立 因為我的個性我不會推責任我們共同解決問題嘛第一個你有督導這個責任嘛對不對因為你現在已經發現問題了是不是要共同解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
313.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我想如果他是一個問題的話我覺得我們應該有跟地方政府溝通的一個責任希望他們能夠去落實依法去處理這個我想我們一定會做到馬上就去溝通好不好來我們看一看危險性到哪邊來來看看這個問題當然出在中央跟地方都有狀況來你看看這麼大一個山51公頃他現在做供電板高達46 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
344.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
369.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他一年營收可以有四億兩千萬我們政府在推光電的時候你們注意到人民的財產生命安全你們生態保護的這個問題還是你們重視的只是光電業者的利益呢當有衝突的時候當然立即趕快去處理啊你看這個多危險紅色圈圈現在是暗場所在的TG區紅色的你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
370.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
395.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
左邊這個地方是斷層地質敏感地帶離那個暗場大概只有不到5公里這麼近喔另外綠色這個線第三個畫過來了這個紅圈圈這個地方土壤異化高潛勢區欸另外還有個順向坡右下角這個粉紅色的歷年來已經發生過好幾次山坡地的災害的位置了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
396.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
417.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個地區這麼嚴重 結果以前已經有多次的這個受害了結果你把山挖山砍平 把樹砍掉這是政府跟農業部跟經濟部在推這個光電的原意嗎當人民的財產生命安全受到影響 生態受到影響的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
419.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
447.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
光電業者的利益那麼重要嗎我跟委員報告所有的光電的開發案或其他的開發案的話我想政府有一定的相關的審查的遊戲規則跟審查的基準那不管是在斷能地區所提到的或是高風險區的部分他的審查的條件會更嚴苛所以當他業者沒有照這個方式去處理的話就會所謂的剛才說的所謂的開罰的部分然後開罰到某個程度不行的話可能就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
448.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
465.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
廢紙嘛那這個部分我剛才說了如果是地方政府的權責我們會盡量去跟地方政府溝通但是相關的審查本身它有一定的標準而不是說我們為了光電的利益而去犧牲掉我們人民的安全這個我想我們絕對不會做正事 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
466.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
489.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是速度要快 我剛剛講兩個 第一個要講如果鬧出人命不是只有財產受到影響 鬧出人命就有刑者的問題嘛對不對 這就是一關的喔 要看起來喔第二個更重要怎麼講 訪台廳已經來了嘛現在大家已經注意到這個問題 趕快解決問題啊來 你現在一直在說隔容期 高雄市陳其邁讓人家負責任嘛他暖男市長啊 有心急的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
491.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
518.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
結果前陣子已經發生那個清達電廠3號機跟4號機沒有許可沒有許可的狀況之下開始燒煤炭大家已經去追他的責任啊這一個也是人命關天的啊他當然要負起責任啊他如果解決民調才會高嘛如果出入民調當然會掉下來嘛一樣啊中央部會從經濟部跟經濟部會追農業部長我們負起責任嘛來看一下你們這次嘛水土保持法第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
521.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
545.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這你管的嘛 對不對所以趕快跟地方好好去討論那個地方啊有那個南河岩那邊有一個南河岩水土保持這些都想你管的這裡沒有化為特定的水土保持區域所以就沒有所謂的禁止開發的行為所以當初那個水土保持完全都通過嗎 沒有任何問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
547.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
552.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有,我不要強調這個審查我剛才說的,所謂的審查我們一定有一定的遊戲規則而且審查也不是一個人來決定它是一個召集相關的委員會去處理的啦所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
562.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
582.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我現在不確定這個案子本身是不是如同你說的因為我沒有辦法從照片裡面畫出來的東西說說它是安全或是危險這我沒有辦法確認我會去確認說我也不會說因為媒體報導它危險就認定它危險我們一定會去更詳細的了解這個案子本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
582.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
606.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他的用專業的角度去看說他是不是真的是落實危險如果是危險的話我們一定會第一時間跟縣市政府請他們提醒他們去做相關的事情部長我們跟時間下來人命歡天好來那我們解決問題來所以請農業部在一個禮拜內提出來你們當初怎麼核准這個案的開發的申請文件跟核准的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
607.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
635.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還有相關的這個時間點可以嗎這是地方政府我剛才說的是地方政府核准的啊不是我們關於你們這個你們農業部當初完全沒有沒有參與嗎我們只有在農地沒有你們沒有角色呢當然也有經過你們啊農業部就廢掉了這麼重大的事情怎麼可能也經過你們沒有我們可以表示意見但是我剛才講的決定權核准權是在內政部的區委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
636.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
646.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
不是農業部合或不合我們是在處理農地變更那農地變更本身如果區委會同意的時候我們才進行農地變更這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
647.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
674.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你們是督導嘛 你剛才說要隨機高雄市政府聯絡嘛 對不對對 我們會來協調 但是我剛才說的我們不是全責單位 我們沒辦法直接介入至少對你的全責督導那部分來你兩座內 請高雄市政府把那個 還有你農業部當初怎麼核准的水保計畫我好說的 我們沒有核准嘛怎麼一直叫我們拿核准的文件 我們沒有核准啊所以你們完全在水保計畫這塊完全不負責任嗎所以我請我們的法治好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
678.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
704.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們一定的規則不是說規則當然有督導啦有參與啊怎麼可能農業部就廢掉了不是嗎委員報告一下水保計畫的核定在水保法裡面有明定的很清楚原則上都是直轄市縣市政府的核准除了中央興建的工程才是我們農業部來核准所以水保計畫的核定就是有民間開發的都是由地方政府來做核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
705.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
729.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
要跟您做個說明所以這個案子的開發案他一定要擬水保計畫他不是19條的特定水保禁止開發他是個開發案是內政部核准的開發案那在開發的當時一定會開挖整地那只要在山坡地做開挖整地依水保法12條的規定就要擬水保計畫報經地方政府做核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
730.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
743.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
核定完以後依照水保計畫來做實施並監督跟委員報告所以你們現在所以到底農業部的角色是什麼除了你剛剛講的督導要去國中之外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
745.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
774.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
跟委員報告一下我們中央在水保法裡面的角色除了剛剛講說中央的工程是我們核水保計畫我們還是法規的主管機關法規那我們水保計或者水保我們有助監督剛剛我們的主秘也說得很清楚是說監督所以地方如果有一些執行不是很妥適的我們會來了解那在這個案子就我們所知地方政府有做裁罰他有用水保法去做裁罰也勒令停工了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
775.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
800.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以水保法該做的裁罰地方政府都做了所以站在我們督導主管機關的立場他不是我們可以去做了解他不是不裁罰他如果不裁罰我中央當然要介入那現在目前來講他已經有裁罰勒令停工你們先盡你們督導的這個責任對不對包含你剛剛講法規有沒有被誤解這個地方第二個你剛剛講裁罰就是民眾跟媒體現在為什麼跳起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
802.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
803.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
台水剛來的消息沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
821.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
836.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他那個地是台水的沒關係你去查清楚現在不要各說各話因為我的這邊的消息來源是台水來的我要執行你執行我特別去問好不好那沒有的話就要熱令他天公趕快把安全做好尤其是訪台聽這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
837.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
863.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我剛才說的齁 這個詳情我們會跟高雄市政府去了解然後高雄市政府如果依法已經做了一些決定或停工的話他也是依水保計畫相關的處罰嘛那就結了嘛 就跟農業部是沒有特別的關係嘛對對 東田你一看也沒有停工嘛 現在台水那邊消息就沒有那有 沒有的話就趕快去處理這件事情 好不好那另外做一些比較整體的 保定 做一個比較整體的山坡地 我們剛才說過山坡地 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
864.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
879.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
整個生態的這個問題 安全問題嘛你是不是能夠一個月內比較完整針對國內山坡地跟開發重電的光電這個問題做一個檢討跟報告出來你的生態保護啊 你的山坡地的保護啊這個題目好大 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
882.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
900.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個題目很大那現在出現這種地方蠻多的啦你有發現台灣現在有一個要種田啦沒有第一個你的漁電共生一些漁溫已經被犧牲了對不對那一些農地一部分現在連山坡地都開始砍樹挖山因為山坡地本身的界定齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
901.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
921.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他跟他的那個楊蔣是有關的那山坡地本身能夠讓他開發光電或其他的開發工程的話一定是經過審查的一定都是個案審查的那你要告我你要我說把全台灣的山坡地的這些光電的這些政策跟立場這個沒辦法沒辦法沒辦法說明的因為他都是個案在處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
922.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
943.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
部長就是這個案子出問題嘛所以你說高雄市政府開始裁罰嘛對不對 是啊我現在是說他要熱令停工或是要停嘛不能只有罰錢嘛那你是多少單位你要進去這是第一個第一個是個案嘛第二個我現在就是前面我第二個我是要跟你講就是說有沒有類似的個案是有危險性的你先去清一遍嘛我剛剛已經講了喔這有刑責問題喔如果你的山坡地這樣開發出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
944.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
953.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那主管機關 要不要把他扣起來這個有刑責問題喔不要說於心何人啦人民的財產生命安全這如果鬧出人命怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
954.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
979.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是不是 於心不安的同時還有刑責啊沒有 所有的開發都有開發許可嘛啊就是開發出了問題所以才要你去查嘛那如果去查沒有問題當然就沒事啊那就是地方政府的問題啊內政部本身部長你怎麼一直把責任推給地方政府地方要負一部分責任中央你剛剛講你要督導你要去解釋對不對現在包括有高雄的地方在那在那看民進黨立委會不會上來要求要做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
980.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1001.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這部分黨派人民的生命財產安全中央跟地方本來就是分工的啊沒有農業部的職權我可以介入處理的我一定介入處理我可以溝通了解的我一定溝通了解嘛趕快去溝通這是跨部會的問題沒有沒有我最後只要一個東西我定不定我最後只要這個東西針對國內的山坡地特別是開發去種田是光電的到底安不安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1002.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1012.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
你去清一下好不好有發生像這樣的事情我可以了解說現在的山坡地裡面有多少的光電暗場那到底安不安全絕對我沒辦法去判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1014.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1036.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
就是先去看安不安全嘛 對不對沒有 我沒有辦法判斷它安不安全因為它如果被許可的話就是一個安全的那我可以在一個月之內去調所有的山坡地有水保計畫有光電暗場的資料這個可以處理但是要我去判斷說它安不安全這個我沒辦法做到那你就全部 一個一個先調出來好不好我做一個簡單總結 保定保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1039.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1065.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們是支持要發展綠電的可是光電發展到現在我已經問過你好幾次了餘電共生你看看多少餘溫多少農民的生活都受到影響了這是第一類所以我上次就說我知道你們壓力可能很大啦一方面要充分供電一方面講那些業者你們壓力大火可是你們要多站在人民的立場農民的立場人民的財產安全的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1066.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1086.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
來 我最後說一個總結 你看八十幾年的時候啊 台灣一直在推BOT那時候有一部電影很有名叫《海角7號》它裡面這樣講土地也要BOT山也要BOT連我們面對的大海都要BOT它是我們台灣的海這麼漂亮可是我們自己都看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1087.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1107.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那是要諷刺我們VOT 氾濫又出了一堆問題我們現在光電也出了一堆問題這樣倒下去連山坡地都產平了台灣還剩下什麼所以政府有責任啊你在光電推動的時候光電業者的利益不能夠侵犯到我們人民的財產和生命安全嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1108.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1117.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這一定的啊我今天一整個質詢從前幾天問你的漁電共生到今天山坡地被鏟平樹被砍掉這是我們台灣人民要的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1119.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1142.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這是政府一開始要推動光電藥的嘛 出問題要解決問題如果他申請剛出過了但是他後續沒有依照水保計畫去執行就會開罰嘛所以這個部分我想我們會來做啦在整個申請過程當然有法律的依據啦可是老實講很多申請案子過了以後一出現一堆弊案嘛所以才需要事後好好去追嘛現在媒體為什麼報導這麼大 民眾一直在陳情嘛我們不能解決問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1144.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1159.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
都站在人民的立場,特別幫人民解決財產跟生命安全,恭喜大家我今天提出的指示很重要喔,紅台聽來喔如果因為我今天,我已經提醒大家了出了問題,不是只有良心不安這有刑事責任,人會抓去關,謝謝 |