| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc53a1fc3a982fb612ad9f551ce5fa921f083084566cc2bdb4d6c56ae7a41aa15b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：繼續併案審查
（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。
（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。
（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。
（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。
（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。
（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。
（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
27945 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 16:16:00 |
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報告委員會出席委員6人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開始開會吼那我們先進行報告事項請宣讀上市會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第二會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄審問中華民國113年11月6日星期三上午9時6分至10時51分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員羅偉智強等12人 |
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1841.234 |
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寫習委員徐偉翔等7人擬具列席官員司法院副秘書長黃玲倫等人主席吳昭吉委員鍾憲報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續併案審查司法院行政院含情審議法院組織法部分條文修正草案等4案決議一進行逐條審查二第12條第34條第51條增訂第66條之五均照司法院行政院提案通過 |
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1842.094 |
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1861.056 |
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三（第67條除將第一項中心理師及佐理員修正為臨床心理師或諮商師及佐理員及第二項中心理師列師三級修正為臨床心理師列師三級諮商心理師列師三級外于趙偉翁小林等16人提案通過 |
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1889.427 |
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案．第73條復表除將復表只稱列中臨床心理師修正為臨床心理師諮商心理師外予照司法院行政院提案通過五．通過附帶決議二項六本案審查完具擬具審查報告提請院會公決不須交由黨團協商因為討論時由吳昭吉文中線出席說明七條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員整理宣讀完畢 |
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1919.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問就上次的會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定接著我們介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員首先介紹在場委員黃國昌委員鍾嘉斌召委接著我們介紹列席官員我們則要介紹法務部部長政部長法務部政次徐政次廉政署署長馮署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1928.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1946.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那其餘未及介紹的列席代表警察院名單不再逐一介紹本日議程討論事項排定繼續定案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具接避者保護法草案等7案本日會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1948.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1961.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
有公務人員保障暨培訓委員會在提出書面報告請問有口頭報告?有沒有?沒有?好那書面報告列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1964.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1988.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
由議程所列的議案約經113年5月16日第一會期本會第二三次全體委員會會議報告及尋討完畢決議另定期繼續審查並於7月8日舉行公聽會聽取學者各界意見願意今日繼續審查未立於審查委員如有修正動議或附帶決議提出請請書送到主席台將書面印發現場進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2001.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2020.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
由於提案的條文已經宣讀完畢,所以我們現在進行討論。請問一下要不要進行大體討論?當然需要啊。對,就是依慣例我們會先詢問。好,那請問兩位委員要先進行大體討論。好,請中加委。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2022.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2048.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席戰務委員先進我想還有列席的政府官員那我們這次在看揭弊者保護法我首先看了一下之前呢我們有辦了幾場的公聽會那其實呢待會啊我也是想說請在場的官員回應一下這些公聽會的過程當中那主要各個發言的意見為何那是不是這個部分可以先請我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2050.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2073.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
法務部說明說明一下好不好好那麻煩部長謝謝委員的一個提問那事實上在整個一個揭弊法的一個立法過程中我們辦了好幾場的一個公聽會那這部分各界的反應的意見很多包括學者專家還有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2074.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2101.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
還有一些的就是工會的他們的代表那這部分對制定這個揭弊者保護法這部分他們有提供很多寶貴的一個意見尤其是公司部門的一個合併以及私部門的這部分的一個揭弊這部分他們是提出很多不同的一個看法那是不是詳細的是不是我是請廉政署來這部分來跟我們再做更細部的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2104.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2126.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席。好,麻煩馮處長。好,主席。好,委員。我們這一個在我們的這個揭弊者保護法的這一個部分目前跟各位委員報告一下就是說我們的進度在今年的2月23號的話行政院這邊是召開了第12次的審查會目前的版本是第15個草案是送到行政院做審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2127.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2144.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那麼在7月8號的部分我們這個昭緯這邊也有辦過公聽會那我們目前的一個進度立法政策的部分是採取公部門先行、私部門服以行政指導逐步的再去推廣到私部門的一個整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2145.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2173.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
為什麼在一開始從103年開始其實一開始就是先公部門的一個先行到後頭來採公司部門的合併到後來又變成說我們的一個這個公司合併的上市上櫃那到今年的一個部分再改成說我們現在的一個公部門就是為主然後司部門的部分用行政指導的原因主要是因為說在立法上面因為也有很多不同的聲音所以為求慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2174.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2175.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2202.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2223.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就是像林智傑老師、劉邦秀主任、陳永正主任跟李聖傑副教授都是上一次7月8號的時候在我們的公聽會中認為說在10部門這邊要特別的慎重這樣的一個情況那麼再來業界的裡面在這個王毅會理事長的這個全球永續公益聯盟的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2224.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2249.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
案 及全國工業總會及萬國事務所都會有這樣的聲音。在之前的部分的一些我們了解的一些像是中小企業還有中華民國工業協定會及一些律師意見其實都對於說司部門的這一塊是有一些聲音在當然我們是希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2251.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2270.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
證証因為我們現在目前的部分就是說司部門也不是說我們就就是說我們該採用行政指導的方式希望說能夠在我們的目前的進度是公部門這邊然後司部門是盡量用行政指導讓環境成就以後希望說我們在這個求先求有求好的這個狀況以上好謝謝主席那也謝謝那馮署長清楚的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2278.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2301.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那其實我就希望說透過馮處長幫我們彙整這段時間以來政府部門主管機關辦的公聽會包括我們本委員會辦的公聽會各界的聲音是怎麼樣那我是不是可以這樣的做一個歸納看看大家的意見聽聽大家的回應似乎沒有人反對要定揭弊者保護法我想這應該是一個很清楚的社會的共識是不是這樣子部長你是不是認為這樣子這個的確是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2304.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2327.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但是看起來公聽會大家對於說要制定揭弊者保護法但是因為目前行政院的版本自從上次送過又回去重修到目前我們還沒有可以看到行政院的明確是希望怎麼去進行但是從今天我們各個委員有七個版本包括我們的主席吳釗偉在內這個版本各黨派都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2328.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2338.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那這當中呢也似乎他們的共同特色就是並不是只是從公部門先行而是公私並進是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2339.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2364.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那在公司併進的部分聽起來其他的多數意見對於施部門要如何再跟公部門同步併進這個部分是有保留那有提到說尤其談到了幾個重點就是民間的公司企業就是私企業的部分他們對於有沒有能力去承擔這樣的揭弊者保護法在這幾個公司併進的架構之下施部門、私人企業有沒有能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2366.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2391.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我請教一下有沒有與會的這些公聽會的發言者他們認為現階段已經是可以在四部門可以同時跟公部門公司並進的有沒有就馮所長您剛剛所描述的那些意見內容當中第一沒有人反對要定揭弊者保護法那有沒有哪個部門支持四部門在這個過程當中同時跟公部門公司並進的有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2394.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2421.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
在目前的一個情況之下齁其實各種聲音都有啦那事實上在公部門的這一個部分上的部分的聲音的共識比較大那公司部門這一塊當然也有呃也有外國的議法力有這樣子採而且限制是多數只是說在我們台灣目前的一個情況之中有一些中小企業對這一個事情的聲音確實是比較大所以我們也採比較慎重的部分啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2422.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2438.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為你只是描述一個大方向比較大的這個他們考量的問題那麼我們是不是可以在這裡面來討論那我這邊就直接深入我的觀察那目前台灣九成以上是中小企業那中小企業的僱用人員呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2439.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2443.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2457.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2458.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2483.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2485.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2511.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2512.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2534.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2549.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2563.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2577.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
案件中,尼古丁跟焦油是造成煙草危害公眾健康最主要的殺手,焦油造成對肺部的一個傷害,尼古丁造成使用者上癮,但是在這樣的報告當中,大型的煙草商就要把它遮蔽, |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2578.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2605.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
案件都不向對外透露,以至於公眾長年暴露在這樣的一個不良的商品的健康危害之下,直到他們內部的人揭發了這樣的一個調查研究報告之後,才慢慢的讓很多的反菸害團體,很多消費者的保護團體能夠起來對菸草商進行相關的司法訴訟,那也導出了後面對於一些菸害防治的一個立法運動。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2606.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2625.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那我是覺得因為這樣的大型企業在其他國家早有先例因此我們國內引令揭弊者保護法是有必要但是目前是以臺灣來講當我們適用這些大型企業會對我們公眾生活造成極大影響的揭弊者保護法的同時那麼法是一體適用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2625.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2634.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2651.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2651.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2674.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2696.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 謝謝主席 那就我們今天要討論的這個議題我想因為我們臺灣五人以下的這種中小企業應該是有超過150萬家以上那在這種小規模小企業當中如果說我們去實施這個所謂的揭弊的這種規則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2699.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2701.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
案件,為何會造成企業間公司在營運的過程會不會是因為同性質的企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2714.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2718.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
案件中的競爭引發不必要的檢舉方式,導致揭弊的情況不能像 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2730.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2755.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
保護法草案案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2759.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2779.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
交通規則違規的這種檢舉的這種案例來看其實已經造成人與人之間的一個不信任我不曉得他們這種檢舉的情形那個有時候他們到底他們的那個出發點是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2781.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2802.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
反而造成我們一般民眾之間一種猜忌的情況所以我希望說我們對於這一次這個揭弊者的這個我們要實施的話應該是要審慎評估要有一個比較好的一個配套然後我還是主張就是公司要分開來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2805.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2823.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因為這樣子才不會導致我們這個利益良善我們要去制定這個法又導致中小企業私人企業之間他們這種小公司小規模的這種企業會不會造成另外一波的一個這種不必要的一個紛擾以上好謝謝那我們請莊委員莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2833.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2860.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
謝謝,謝謝召委我想剛前面的委員也提到了就是在提整個揭弊者保護的部分是談可能大家擔憂的就是說這個承擔能力的問題揭弊者保護我認為是非常有必要的就是說這個範圍到底要到什麼地方我這陣子我非常冷靜的去做一個思考那剛剛我聆聽了幾位委員的講法以後我想大致 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2861.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2862.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2885.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2914.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
最常看到的比較大型的國營事業不管是台鐵或者說任何的一個企業遭到指控收受不當的資金民眾還照樣我該搭高鐵的我還是搭高鐵我該搭台鐵的還是搭台鐵你最後調查沒有結果其實公部門對他沒有怎麼樣影響民眾並不會因為你這樣的一個弊端來受到這樣的影響可是就在民間裡面可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2915.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2931.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個部分是不是就再來做一個考慮就是說怎麼樣做一個安排這個是我比較擔心的你公部門的受理揭弊的機關其實是非常明確那我去看現在的各個版本來看的話受理單位到最後都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2931.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2938.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
案案件事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2950.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2979.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因此如果本法施行以後應該更能夠去體現它的一個適用的一個效果這個是公部門先行的一個部分可是這個就是大家在談大體討論的時候可能難免就會去比較個別的一個版本你像比如說吳宗憲召委你的版本其實我也拜讀了你那個像比如說你那個第五條那個部分你的公部門大家談公部門跟私部門很多地方你就範圍又跟人家不一樣你就不包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2981.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2982.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
證務官吳保瓜明代（ |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2986.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3001.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3016.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3016.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3032.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3033.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3047.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3047.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3074.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3075.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3102.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3118.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
也有可能是不了了之那像這種情況的話確實會衝擊到營運這個也是不得不去做一個思考的地方那其實也就是說在惡性競爭底下外部第三者他的介入的空間競爭對手 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3120.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3121.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
案（一）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3138.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3157.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們通過了那萬一這種情況發生怎麼辦所有的版本幾乎都會碰到這樣的一個情況這個是我們在立法的時候我們必須要去思考的一個地方所以揭弊者保護我比較不會站在說政黨誰提出來誰不提出來我是從頭到尾我一直在思考這個問題就是說像這種情況我們怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3160.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3160.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3178.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3200.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
也不是只有台灣如果真的通過的話也不是只有台灣啊別的國家人家也會這樣做一個區分我是說以台灣目前的現況我們現況確實是幾個人的這種小企業最多那另外呢我反而我反而有在思考一個問題啊就是大家對揭弊的一個範圍的我認為不要用市場喊價的方式啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3205.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3232.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
不管是你從貪汙到黑金黑槍毒到食品勞動安全的部分這看起來都很有魄力可是你那個結果裡面我們又如果再放進去一個概括授權你說通過了那範圍你主管機關你自己去公告這也漏氣了馬上就漏氣了我都覺得有太過於空白授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3234.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3256.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
讓你們自己去定要嘛我就立法院我們就是要規範那個範圍是大家再來想一下不要說就只有就全部的我如果今天你有法務部我做你部長這部分我都通過你要很窮那範圍到你室內在等的你這樣還對我這個大家我提出來讓大家做一個思考一下好不好謝謝那現在我們請省委員薄洋發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3263.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3263.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
法律部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3279.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3286.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3295.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3312.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這跟我們那時候在討論那一個新住民的基本法有點類似我們其實在很多地方都有鄉住民相關的一些行政措施然後行政指導命令等等之類的但是當時可能是很多人認為不足所以說要訂一個母法所以新住民基本法把它包起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3313.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3331.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
但其實說真的就算沒有這個基本法我們原本對於新住民的措施也都持續那證人保護其實也是很類似但最大的差別當然就是我們現行的證人保護法比較多都還是在追溯以後不是在追溯以前那如果我們今天用這樣的一個立法目的來看我們現在訂的這一個追溯者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3332.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3332.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3351.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3376.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那白領犯罪我的博士論文就是寫白領犯罪這是我個人的專長那白領犯罪在犯罪學裡面最好的方式不是揭弊最好的方式一直以來都是透明化也就是說你越透明你就越能夠讓公部門去做相關的追訴所以譬如說你看像我們這邊公費助理的這個樣貌你要不要揭露你今天政黨內部的這個運作要不要透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3376.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3376.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3393.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3393.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3421.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3437.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
當他找我簽的時候我還是跟他講我對於這個私人的部分畢竟還是沒有那麼贊成就是因為公部門當然應該先引領先先行但即使就算在公部門的部分都會有陷入我剛剛那個苛究就是我們現在針對透明的法制是不完善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3438.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3464.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
然後我們這個透明的法制不完善所以追訴的部分不完善我相信這邊很多的委員在這個質詢的時候也會常常抱怨說啊這個公務機密啊什麼等等之類的這個也是透明的一部分嘛如果這些事情比如說我們改文書的處理規則把透明的機制做得更好我們其實不需要像這樣的一個方式所以即使在公部門都有這樣的一個疑慮的話那我會認為至少私部門的部分應該先暫緩這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3467.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3467.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3484.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3503.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
有些證據就是沒有辦法取得就只有在內部的那個人知道所以這又是另外一個比較堅強的一個理由說好雖然我剛講前面那個理由是不充分但第二個理由我個人認為是充分但如果把這個第二個理由放進來的話就會形成一個狀況其實除了貪污就是收賄這件事情以外很容易無法取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3504.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3520.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個所謂相關證據的其實就是國安案件那如果是這個樣子的話照理說如果用這樣的立法目的來出發我們一開始在範圍的定定應該是要把國安放進來才對但我們國安並沒有在這個裡面不過我就大家看了這個所有的版本國安其實不在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3520.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3547.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那為什麼當時沒有把國安放在裡面很重要的一個考量就是假設你現在設計的這個制度結果這個社會往前進然後尤其台灣是一個非常注重國安的國家我們畢竟有一個敵國的威脅所以可能開始就有人說是不是要把國安放進去但是把國安一旦放進去之後因為這個法如果今天公司部門並行的話它所造成的氛圍是什麼就是揭弊者就在你身邊這一句話其實不是我講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3548.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3568.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這句話是當時這一個布版的時候那時候一起幫忙做的那一個徐恆達老師這他寫在他的期刊論文裡面的這個當然並不是什麼很大的問題但如果今天把國安放進來的話就會變成匪諜就在你身邊了而台灣就會進入到那樣的一個模式所以這也是為什麼就是說就整體的這一個基礎文化面 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3568.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3586.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們絕對是肯定今天揭弊者需要被保護證人需要被保護這是一定的事情但問題是如果按照這一個方式就是公司一起並行走下去的話再把我們講的不容易取得證據的案件不斷的增加因為有些甚至會有一些概括授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3587.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3613.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那這個高高授權一進來的話它的範圍它的過道會變成一種全景的這種監視社會那這種監視社會的副作用可能是我們必須要考量的所以基於這樣的一個理由不管是剛剛講的前面我們剛剛講的因為我們基於前面需要取得一些利的等等的這些理由我認為這個是不夠充分一直到後面的我們說過今天要取得這些情報的這個理由後面這個我覺得是比較充分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3613.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3637.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以會基於這兩個理由等一下在主條的時候我們我譬如說以我個人我比較會有意見的都會是第一個是司部門的一個加入然後再來是範圍的問題但接下來進入了譬如說我們公園內部的啦到底要不要獨立的委員會然後然後呢這個中間的那一個這個什麼他的不利益的措施應該要怎麼去防止通報的程序我反而覺得這一個應該就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3638.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3640.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
草案案件事務委員黃偉源謝謝主席今天終於進入了《揭弊者保護法》的排審 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3656.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3678.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這是一個延宕非常久的法案在過去這幾年當中各式各樣的討論都有今天列席的法務部部長上次有機會跟你討論吹哨者保護法是您在當連政署署長的時候也就是在第九屆國會的時候那個時候你連政署署長的身份有列席司法法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3679.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3697.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那時候很多委員在兩次的審查當中我們在主條針對每一個條文其實都有經過深入的交換意見那時候你也有代表法務部表達你的看法我相信相關的會議記錄在立法院公報裡面通通都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3699.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3712.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
剛剛委員所提出來的意見我都尊重台灣本來就是一個多元的社會有人認為公部門先行有人認為公司部門要合併這樣子的討論其實在過去這幾年來不斷在發生當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3719.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3741.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
討論都很健康都非常的好但我不認為這應該成為阻礙整個立法程序往前邁進的理由所以我很期待就是說大家對於有關於吹哨者保護法的主體範圍客體範圍大家有不同的看法都可以提出邱振東一來 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3742.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3768.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
因為我們在法律談法律的時候就不要空泛的談啊空泛的談就好像我也不曉得該怎麼加以形容你認為主體範圍要限制在哪裡你認為客體範圍要限制在哪裡那就像提案的委員一樣就把版本拿出來那我們在組條的時候好好的看可不可以凝聚共識那如果沒有辦法凝聚共識啊也沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3769.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3794.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我自己為什麼會採取有關於公司部門合併這樣子的態度我們在2017年思改國事會議的時候所達到的結論就是這個樣子就公司部門合併的部分要研擬吹哨者保護、揭弊者保護法第二個部分在我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3796.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3801.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
有好幾次包括國外委員大家也都是做這樣子的建議當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3803.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3830.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
法務部的立場似乎後來有所改變那按照我的瞭解其實也不是法務部的立場有所改變是法務部的版本送到行政院裡面的時候負責審查的政務委員他有一個比較強烈的一些看法那這個我相信在過去這幾年我非常密切的在觀察揭弄者保護法推動或者是被阻礙的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3831.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3859.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
各式各樣的力量或者是不同的看法參與其中這也都無可厚非反映了臺灣多元社會的本質我只是希望說今天在審法案的時候大家有不同的看法都很好也都很健康等到具體條文的時候我們一條一條來go over要不然的話我們如果到2024年的今天如果還是為了說公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3860.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3885.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
先走還是公部門合併大家沒有共識這件事情本來我老實講本來就有不一樣的看法要有共識是非常非常的困難還繼續卡在這個地方造成法案沒有辦法繼續往前邁進的阻力我覺得這可能也不是我國把國際反貪腐公約我們把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3887.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3912.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
成為我國法律規範的一部分或者是說我們還花了不少錢請了國際的專家學者來針對我們所抵觸的國家報告加以審查甚至國際的學者在之前的審查當中其實話還講得蠻重的對於我們在致病吹哨者保護法上面的延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3914.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3939.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
多有所指責。」我相信這個歷程有參加會議的法務部的官員我相信都聽得非常非常的清楚那最後對於私部門對於私部門在中小企業組那邊到底會負擔什麼樣子所謂的責任義務我覺得恐怕還是要回到摧殊者保護法他的本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3940.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3957.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
他的本質,基本上他就是不要因為他的揭弊行為而遭受到不利益的處分。至於說所謂的揭弊行為到底是揭弊還是我們比較傳統文化概念當中的撂杯仔撂者之間這本來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3960.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3986.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個是文化跟觀念上面討論的問題這個不會去牽涉到有關於主體範圍跟客體範圍的爭議我為什麼會這樣講因為目前三件在各個不同的法規當中包括勞動基準法包括環境保護包括食品安全在勞動基準法的脈絡當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3988.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4003.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
會不會有所謂廖伯亞的事情?有啊!那就要看你怎麼看他嘛!我的老闆沒有遵守勞動基準法這個員工去舉發老闆那我們到底要把他稱為揭弊還是要把他稱為廖伯亞?問題是在我們的勞動基準法裡面就已經規定了僱主不可以因為受僱人他去檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4015.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4039.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
而對他做不利益的處分。」那我們在勞動基準法的脈絡裡面有因為擔心他是撂北仔還是吹哨在勞動基準法的範圍當中這對不可以因為他檢舉僱主違反勞動法規而做不利益的處分有因為受僱者 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4041.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4066.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
或者是有關於僱主他們規模的大小而做任何的區別對待嗎?沒有啊理由很簡單啊他的核心內容就是你不能因為他做他檢舉的行為而有任何不利的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4067.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4093.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
至於說揭弊者保護法施行以後到底對僱主會造成什麼樣子的負擔那個法尊的成本所謂的法尊的成本會不會太高到底呈現在條文裡面設計的第幾條要僱主去做什麼樣的行為那跟我們現行散件在各個不同的單行法規當中不可以因為檢舉人他的檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4095.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4121.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
而有不利益的處分有不利益的對待彼此之間的差別在哪裡是不是有因為這樣的差別而有正當化去做區別對待的理由我相信相關的討論在台灣不是第一天才發生這也不是什麼新穎的法律當然我也可以理解也有一些學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4122.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4148.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
可能在我們上一次處理揭弊者保護法的時候所採取的態度跟這一次在處理揭弊者保護法的時候除其立法院的公聽會自己的看法都有所改變那這個我也都尊重那但是我們從2017年世改國是會議一路走到現在現在已經2024年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4150.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4176.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
如果2017年施改國事會議也不是說什麼絕對牢不可破既然是施改國事會議我們就要把它奉承金科玉律絕對不可破要改變也不是不能改變但是那段歷史沒有辦法被抹掉在施改國事會議裡面多少人參與大家都參與大家都討論也有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4180.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4193.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們針對聯合國反貪腐公約所舉行的會議找國際專家來所做的評論這些都有很具體文獻上面的記錄那話雖然是這樣講我對於接下來在規範上 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4198.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4224.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
接下來在規範上我很清楚的表達我的看法是說我贊成公司部門合併我的立場是我贊成公司部門合併那但是我也會尊重多數委員的看法也就是說如果今天立法院多數大家的看法是說公部門先行 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4225.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4249.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
公部門先行我在表達了我的看法以後最後我的版本表決輸掉我都會接受因為我覺得這件事情一定要往前走這件事情一定要往前走只有先公部門的先走如果最後法案到23讀以後的結果是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4251.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4256.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我覺得也沒有關係這反映出了台灣的民主社會我們國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4257.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4285.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
代表人民所做出來的法案政策跟價值的選擇在民主原則之下我當然要接受那只是說我從第九屆的國會積極的推動吹哨者保護法那時候委員會的審查全程參與到最後很遺憾有一些外部的主力所謂有一些外部的主力就打開偏裝數量化 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4287.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4315.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
就是老闆不希望被規範就沒有排上院會嘛那好不容易我們到這一屆的國會又有這樣子的機遇又有這樣子的機會我的立場還是一樣公司部門合併的來加以規範那但是如果多數的意見是公部門先行我也不會因為這樣子而阻擋這個法案往前走 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4316.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4337.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
會不會遺憾當然會遺憾那但是這是選擇的結果那我們大家都要接受那還是要採取所謂的第三種規範的模式所謂第三種規範的模式基本上還是公司部門合併還是公司部門合併那但是為了要去排除為了要去排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4339.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4362.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
可能有一些委員希望要幫中小企業組發聲這樣子的美意我也都可以理解那你如果要排除中小企業組排除中小企業組他們可能有過多的負擔雖然在法案裡面那個負擔就所何止指的到底是什麼可能到主條的時候我們看會更清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4363.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4381.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
你要先把中華企業組排除先處理上市櫃公司或是公發公司這個是第三種可能的模式那我覺得這個法案是這個社會期待已久的法案也是我們在過去這幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4383.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4393.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
不管是斯卡國式會議還是我國在推動國際反貪腐公約當中裡面我們應該要去負的國家義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4396.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4425.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這都已經討論了非常久那要採取我剛講的公司部門合併只有公部門或是公司部門合併那我們只限於上市櫃或公發公司的大公司把中小企業組排除那我覺得在整個法案審議討論的過程當中大家都可以討論那只不過說現在我們在檯面上面有的版本目前啦在檯面上面有的版本大概就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4426.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4443.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我看起來都是公司部門合併我沒有看到有一個版本是只有公部門的那就法務部的立場來講上一次上一次我們在進行法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4445.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4447.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
法務部提出建議條文嗎?有還是沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4474.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4500.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
目前那個法案還在行政院審查中對啊我這樣講好了齁如果今天行政院只審查半年或只審查一年立法院這邊沒有等你們是給你們太重的責任但整部法案在立法院待了在行政院待了多久了非常久的一段的時間好幾年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4502.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4522.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們在審法案的時候我不可能等了這麼多年了以後單純的因為行政院沒有提出他們的版本讓整個法案的審查延宕所以今天如果法務部的立場是你們只想處理公部門的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4522.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4550.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那也沒有關係那你們就把你們建議的條文拿出來嘛那我相信在場有很多委員剛剛發言內容我聽起來似乎是比較贊成公部門先行私部門先不要處理那你法務部如果有提一個條文出來的話那也可以去容納這些委員寶貴的意見啊說啊那我們最起碼在檯面上有一個版本是只有公部門的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4551.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4579.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那如果檯面上有個版本是只有公部門的話這樣我們也才比較有討論的依據嘛因為到時候不管是委員會處理完進入黨團協商或者是進入院會的時候不管是AB兩個版本的對立還是ABC三個版本我們終究最後要做出一個政策選擇出來嘛所以我再確認一次法務部今天是沒有打算要提出任何建議條文出來是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4583.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4609.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
目前是沒有好 那就 那就沒有辦法了嘛那我們現在就只能按照在檯面上有的幾個版本來作為討論的基礎那其他委員如果認為現在在檯面上跨黨派的委員所提出來的版本台灣民眾黨 台灣民眾黨團的版本但我可以跟大家講我們開放心胸不會堅持自己的版本譬如說第一條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4610.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4631.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
第一條的部分我會覺得像是民進黨的林月琴委員等17人提案跟廖偉翔等18人委員提案分別是民進黨的委員跟中國國民黨的委員這兩個委員就第一條所做的提案我看了內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4632.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4658.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那個內容就是按照我們在第九屆國會的時候第九屆國會的時候所通過的第一條一模一樣那我覺得也非常的好第一條的條文我台灣民眾黨黨團也不會要堅持用我自己的版本就按照廖偉翔委員跟林月琴委員等人他們的提案因為跟第九屆那個時候法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4659.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4670.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
法務部,我還記得次長陳明堂,廉政署署長鄭明謙第一條喔,光第一條,我們每一個字大家共同討論共同參與所凝聚的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4672.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4696.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那個時候在第9屆第一條所擬具的共識但我們現在這一屆有民主進步黨的委員也有中國國民黨的委員都提案覺得那個時候說你的這個條文很不錯那我也會願意表達支持那我想就大體討論的部分就大的架構的部分跟審這個法案的基本態度先做說明 謝謝好 謝謝國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4699.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4723.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那個黃委員我自己今天就我的版本的部分我會提一個修正東西因為大家的版本都非常的類似那反而是讓選擇的範圍變小了那我自己去這段時間我有思考還有思考到那個法務部上一次我總質詢說他們給我的一些想法還有我去思考到目前我國還有一個東西叫政人保護法所以我們在權衡之下我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4724.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4748.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我會有做一些修正所以這我之後會再提這樣我會讓版本可以多幾個大家可以多做選擇這樣那我們還是就依法論法我們不講其他的想法在裡面好那下一位剛剛是那個省委員先主席各位同仁我想這個剛才大家在大體討論過程中大家的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4750.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4775.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
以及我們接下來如果要進入主條很快的到第三條我們就必須面對目前大家包括剛剛前面大力討論所所討論的焦點就是說這個揭弊者保護法究竟是要公司合併處理或者是公部門先行這樣子的選擇這部分如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4777.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4806.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
一個方式是大家等一下就是竹條的時候到這一條大家就來討論爭執到底是要公部門先行還是要還是要這個公司合併處理這是一種選擇另外一種選擇就是大家在進入竹條之前大家就這個部分大家是不是能夠先有一些共識那我想這個一定是等一下討論的關鍵因為它法條它就是第三條馬上就碰到竹條進入竹條馬上就碰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4807.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4822.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他也是整個這一部揭弊者保護法接下來後面所有法條他的整個法律效果究竟基於哪一些部門他最關鍵的一個問題所以我個人是建議說是不是大家就這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4824.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4847.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們要今天這裡沒有法務部的版本沒有行政院的版本那我們就七個委員我看到有七個委員或黨團的提案大家來進行討論在這樣的討論基礎之下大家是不是能夠就這個部分先有一些公示我們才進入主條否則的話等一下進入主條馬上又是同樣的問題這是我個人的第一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4849.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4874.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那這個揭弊者保護法的版本這個問題其實也就這個剛剛黃委員所講的其實它也就凸顯了這個就揭弊者保護法它所集於的這個範圍究竟是要不要包括四部門這個部分確實在社會上有極高度的爭議我想這個所有我們提案委員也知道就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4877.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4900.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
如果說我們今天的法案大部分法案都是公部門先行我想今天這個揭弊者保護法可能他會已經早就順利的通過了那這個公司分離處理這個也不是說哪一個黨或者是誰大家站在企業主的立場也不是其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4902.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4931.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
其實許多的這個這個剛剛大家發言所講的這些中小企業組大家的心聲啦齁對於說現在目前的的這樣子我們《揭弊者保護法草案》是法案我現在目前七個版本全部都是公司公司整個合併公司合併處理這七個版本全部都是啦齁那這個剛才也有委員質疑說那法務部今天會不會提出法務部的建議條文建議版本事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4932.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4956.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
法務部不是沒有心中的想法部長也不是沒有心中的想法但是行政一體你今天法案送到行政院行政院沒有通過這個法案你今天法務部就不可能自己提出來說那我法務部主張什麼那你置行政院於何地或者說今天行政院沒有通過這個法案那你說那政部長你過去當連任署署長的時候你所講的條文你今天拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4957.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4977.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
建議看看這個不行嘛這個這個審查法案法務部或者法務部長個人他們的立場都不能夠在今天的會議上面提出建議條文這個是行政一體的大原則他不能說行政院沒有通過那我來提我今天在委員會審查的時候我來來講我的建議版本這個就行政論理上他就是不行的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4979.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5007.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
今天整個討論如果等下進入主條就顯然我們這個行政這個法務部他就沒有辦法提出他的建議條文這個是不是部長不行也不是說部長不願意而是確實確實基於行政議題法務部沒有辦法提出在這裡跳過行政院提出他們個別的建議條文這是沒有辦法的那這個剛才在各位委員的發言裡面大家都提到了其實大家也都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5009.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5018.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
剛發言內容也都講有各式各樣的力量本來就有不同的看法這個就是一個現在就揭弊者保護法的討論過程中的一個事實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5021.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5045.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
有關這些上市規公司有上市規公司他們的想法和看法這些中小企業組有中小企業組的看法這個就是現在的一個現實所以我想我們做立法委員大家作為民意代表作為民意的代表包括提案委員、洪孟楷委員他在選區裡面他也要面對各種各式各樣不同的企業大家都一樣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5047.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5065.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以這個我們做立法委員在這裡討論今天要在這裡討論要在這裡立法我們就必須必須要把各方各式各樣的力量大家全部納進來一起討論這個才是我們這個立法上面這個負責的做法那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5068.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5096.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們揭弊者保護法的立法是當年在司法施改國事會議上面大家的公示這部分剛剛黃委員有以再闡明那事實上他開始進入立法程序之後他確實就引起了尤其是以台灣最廣大的中小企業主最大的擔心跟聲音這個部分也是不爭的事實那過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5097.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5126.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我記得過去在這個相關的交通法規立法的時候大家對於這個交通法規立法的時候提出的這個這個這個民眾檢舉齁我們也設立了相當完善的制度但是真正實施下去之後事實上社會對於這個所謂檢舉達人這樣子的現象這個這個在民間後來也造成了很大很大的這個這個民意的的力量我想所有民意代表大家都知道那 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5128.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5154.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這是我所舉的一端另外就在就在這個一個禮拜一個多禮拜之前我們桃園市政府桃園市政府就提了這個有關桃園食安檢舉腐爛你取消吹哨獎金吹哨獎金在10月這個這個上個月10月22號這個桃園市政府所發的新聞稿清楚地講說因為這個食安檢舉腐爛你取消 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5157.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5158.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個這個吹嘲者獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5159.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5183.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這樣子的所有的這些的未來我們今天通過立法之後所可能發生的事情我們在今天作為立法者我們都必須要預見所以大家在討論過程中是還是回到剛才大家每一個委員所講的究竟要公部門先行還是公私合併處理這部分先達成公私否則接下來的法案很難很難再往下繼續討論我認為這個部分我是做這樣的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5188.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5204.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那這個其實剛才各位委員在發言中也都講到了就是包括黃委員剛剛也提到就是像勞基法舉勞基剛舉勞基法為例現在目前揭弊者保護法本身沒有通過的情況之下並不是台灣就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5207.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5226.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
案案 實質的揭弊者保護制度,並不是沒有,事實上剛剛所舉的例子裡面,包括牢記法,包括閃見目前的所有這些有關這個揭弊者的這些相關權益的保障,保障這些揭弊者不受這個他在不受他這個這個揭弊行為之後,不受這個不利益的處分的這些相關法令,閃見在 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5228.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5228.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5250.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5276.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
合併處理要處理到什麼程度是剛剛所講的例如說由委員所舉例的上市歸公司或者是要整個擴及到中小企業這個東西我想這個是等一下進入主條之後一定在馬上第三條裡面大家就最大的爭論所以這部分我是建議說我們是不是在進入主條之前大家就這個部分大家先 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5278.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5299.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
來討論,看是不是有一些共識,以上。那個洪委員先主席,謝謝。司法及法制委員會因為今天我是提案委員之一,也因此我特別過來也希望說能夠趕快進行到主條審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5300.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5320.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那剛剛我的原則一向都是我不點名別人別人也不需要點名我我們就是就法論法但既然剛剛有委員點名到我我也就特別一定要回應司法法制委員會的所謂揭弊者保護法到目前為止沒有行政院版本到底是誰的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5323.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5333.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
2017年8月12號司改國是會議完了之後到現在將近3000天了3000個日子過去了還沒有接受者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5334.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5353.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那那個時候行政院你們到現在放在官網上面還有你們107年108年提出來的政院版那時候寫的有多好聽基於愛護防護保護的精神推動揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5354.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5371.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為公部門的弊端跟私企業不法行為界限難以一分為二而揭弊者跟被揭弊者的身份關係亦非單一法律關係可以涵蓋故避免產生公司部門揭弊者權益之落差以以專法一併審酌併定 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5374.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5393.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這不是我寫的字眼這是你法務部交給行政院到最後送出來的版本公告的總說明字眼公告完畢之後 各方的意見完了退縮了 丟了 收回去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5394.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5415.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
第9屆落幕了到第10屆我們四個黨團的委員都有吹哨者保護法相關的版本出來就遲遲等不到行政院的版本民進黨也配合演出啊反正我就不排啊第10屆我人數比較多啊你奈我何所以第10屆就這樣四年一事無成就過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5417.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5443.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那我真的很感謝現在吳宗憲委員能夠把吹哨者保護法再排入啊因為之前我們就講是說這是所謂還權於民啊真的是保護人民的狀況所以這也是為什麼我從第10屆一進來立法院到現在快五年的時間我真的心的念的都認為說吹哨者保護法應該要立法應該要讓它通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5444.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5463.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那剛剛有委員講啊我們要先取得共識再來進主條那我請教現在共識是什麼我看不出來欸七個委員的版本跟一個黨團的版本全都一致的時候然後你跟我講沒有共識拿出版本啊啊你們的版本在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5466.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5495.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
有民進黨的委員林月琴有國民黨的委員有民眾黨黨團七個委員的版本跟一個黨團版本方向都一致你跟我講沒有共識是我的邏輯的問題還是你們有問題那如果說你認為說有哪裡不妥的地方提出版本啊行政院沒有版本那剛剛講說要有共識的人也沒有版本還是我們召委最好心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5496.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5523.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
兆美說還要再提修正動議讓大家有討論我也開宗明義強調修法的過程我是理想主義啊但是我也知道現實啊我也知道說很多事情我們來共同努力推動取得一個國人可以接受最大平衡點所以能夠說服能夠提出你的條文能夠提出你的說法我可以傾聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5524.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5543.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
有道理的我也可以接受但是不是這樣子今天來什麼東西都沒有白紙一張我還在找奇怪我想說今天那行政院相關的版本至少你主條你的說明你的反對你的贊成在哪裡也沒有那我們等一下主條要怎麼主條然後現在一直跟我們講沒有共識不覺得很可笑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5551.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5552.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5578.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5595.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
除了質詢以外我也都希望能夠跟大家共同討論那我真的拜託各位委員如果說真的要回歸到一開始開宗明義行政院那個時候2017年司改會議或是行政院那個時候提出來的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5598.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5616.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
法治聯名透明以善意對具合理事證的檢舉人提供必要保護的適當措施,避免遭受不公正的待遇。台灣要進步,吹哨者保護法真的應該要在我們這個會期讓它三度通過。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5621.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5632.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
引述的剛剛的討論基本上我是非常贊成洪孟楷委員他所表達的看法就是說我們今天在討論法案要有討論的標的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5634.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5660.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我剛剛第一輪發言我也說了不同的委員有不同的看法有委員認為說先放在公部門也OK那就請把修正動議拿出來要不然我們不知道在討論什麼剛剛有委員說要先有共識才能夠進入竹條但不可能有共識嘛在國會裡面的運作規則從來不是有共識才能往前進 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5661.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5684.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
有不同的看法那你就把你希望你覺得最好你你希望過的法案拿出來放在檯面上才有討論的基礎啊那否則的話以現在討論放在檯面上七個版本可以作為我們逐條討論的標的的七個版本全部都是公司部門合併啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5686.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5686.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5709.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5733.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那剛剛也有委員阿很體貼幫法務部說那個行政院沒有沒有版本所以法務部不宜自己提出來不會阿我之前在司法法制委員會一直到現在經常阿看到法務部提出自己的建議版本出來阿那我們今天的法務部他選擇不提出來我老實說我也尊重因為我給你們機會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5737.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5765.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我再說一次今天離我這個法案今天離我這個法案是剛蹦出來的議題要等行政部門我們都願意等但問題是什麼我們的法務部跟司法院演繹了幾年啊這一屆新的國會我第一次質詢陳建仁院長的時候我就問他說你們《揭弊者保護法》的版本在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5766.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5794.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
還在研議啊很快就會提出來啊還在研議很快就會提出來啊研議到現在十一月咧十一月咧等待的時間夠久了等待的時間夠久了那當然高院委員提到2017年思改國是會議的決議我也同意思改國是會議的決議啊不用是鐵板一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5795.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5821.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
現在有不同的看法可以變更我再說一次司改國是會議的決議不用是鐵板一塊現在的政府有不一樣的看法也可以變更不同的委員有不一樣的看法也可以提出來都沒有問題但我們要有討論的標的嘛你如果認為要現在公部門司部門都不要那就請你拿討論的版本出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5823.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5845.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
否則的話我們目前就只能按照檯面上面的版本下去繼續審查從我們一開始詢答召委排公聽會到今天我想期間應該夠長了嘛那都沒有提出來也沒有關係今天要提修正動議也很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5846.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5874.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那到底最起碼要有一個不一樣的東西來當作討論的標的嗎?譬如說公部門跟私部門那你要提一個版本把私部門全部都刪掉那也OK啊那你就提一個把私部門全部都刪掉的版本啊你不用等到第三條啦第一條你馬上就會碰到這樣的那沒有問題啊你可以有你的立場認為說我只要公部門那就提一個修正動力出來只有公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5875.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5898.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那現在的七個版本都是公私部門合併那沒有辦法有共識那沒有辦法有共識沒有關係啊那我們就按照民主程序來決定因為公說公有理婆說婆有理沒有一個人敢說我說我公私部門合併最有理想性那其他現實的考慮都不用考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5900.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5923.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
公部門提的是說我這個公部門的部分雖然私部門沒有含礦但是我是基於現實上面的考慮不要讓企業主有太大的反彈公部門先行你有你的考慮這個在民主國家當中是一個很正常的現象那我們各自為各自的政策立場負責任這樣就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5925.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5951.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我是不是歉意啦就是大體討論的部分公司部門的部分大家有的意見我相信大概都已經完了那是不是讓有不同意見的委員他們可以從法案的名稱到第一條第二條第三條提出他們的修正動議然後現在我們就繼續往下走這個是我的建議給主席參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5954.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5969.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
因為我這邊我自己也是提案人之一所以我這邊也會進行大體討論跟大家報告一下我的想法那我這邊先報告一下我的想法是我原本的提案的範圍是就大家從提案資料上面應該看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5970.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5989.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那我其實一直希望就是把這個揭弊者保護法在這個會期把它推動過去這是我一直以來的希望所以在之前總諮詢的時候我也一直詢問院長以及部長到底有沒有要推這個揭弊者保護法的版本出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5990.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5995.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6020.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6034.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
案案件,我認為這個東西在立法院不能等,再等下去就對不起國家了,所以這一次我就認為說這一定要排進去。但是我也不是說一個很極端的人,那我自己以前的實務經驗也告訴我, |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6038.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6061.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
案件,甚至在公司合併或彼此產業競爭的時候他會玩這種小招數所以我完全認同部長之前在總諮詢的時候跟我說的司部門你們還有所顧忌這個我是我這段時間我的思考我是認同以及剛才民進黨的幾位委員所提的我也蠻認同這個點的所以有關這個部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6062.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6078.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
行政院竟然沒有考量要送版本出來那我們也用心的去聆聽法務部行政院的想法以及其他不同委員的想法所以今天我就我自己的版本有一些修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6079.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6084.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6107.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6131.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
在不同的規模的私人公司我們如果一律要他就我們所謂的立法的目的是三保就是身份保障、人身安全保障以及工作權的保障是不是有辦法在各種規模的民間企業我都能做到這個點確實我自己還是打一個問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6132.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6133.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
法務部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6155.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6157.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6182.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6182.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
國營企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6206.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6227.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
事務部門的部分我也不是說完全不要我也支持最終我們還是要走向連司部門都要有這個揭弊者的保護所以我今天我也會提一個那個附帶決議我會要求說當我們如果今天依照我的版本過那我會要求說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6228.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6244.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
案 施行後三年後開始檢討這個法案擴及到施部門的那個可能性然後再朝向修法去走我想說這樣子是一個橫憑風險以及利益之下我自己的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6246.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6246.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6265.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6292.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
律委同仁會對不起這個國家所以我覺得我會這樣子推動啦那施部門的話也不是說我們反對施部門施工施人公司的員工不要檢舉公司的違法我們也會鼓勵他因為我們目前還有一個正能保護法我們可以先用正能保護法在這三年的這空窗期間內我們先去填補這個問題那等到三年到了我們去發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6293.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6310.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我們的那個揭弊者保護法在公部門施行之後的利弊我們再去修正成一個更適合這個國家社會尤其是私人公司的這個法案之後我們再來用心的把它修法通過這是我目前想法因為我跟各位報告一個點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6312.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6330.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我以前辦案的經驗當兩間公司在企業在競爭的時候甚至說企業併購的時候他都希望對方的股價暴跌那這時候他的玩法他就叫一個人去那家公司去應徵然後就在那家公司裡面去搞一些檢舉搞一些什麼等檢察官查了6個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6332.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6349.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6351.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6355.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6379.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6405.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我本人對於這個這次的揭弊者保護法我個人就大體討論的部分我的發言好謝謝各位好那個中委員謝謝主席太好了我們召委排這個案果然是有備而來也很開心的看到一個修正動議這樣完整的提出那我再先做一個先是聲明我是希望有比較多的時間來研究召委主席所提出來的修正的版本那在這個之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6406.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6428.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
之前我對我們今天的法案審查推進的進度我表達一下大家可以思考的一件事情最近法務部做一件事情引起軒然大波後來法務部不得不撤回哪一個法案的預告就是關於墮胎罪的刑責刑罰提高的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6429.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6429.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6448.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6471.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
但是法務部他基於整體的他們的這個法則的一個未接的擴充啊他就把這樣的修法呢也納進來做公告所以我相信包括召委在內我想包括部長在內我今天特別提這個就是說其實呢社會上對於自己切身相關的法律他的修改其實他需要一點時間去理解跟反應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6472.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6488.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
其實法務部並沒有針對要對墮胎的刑責加重加大,並沒有。他只因應著整體的刑法的梯度的調整,他就一併把他納入公告。結果造成的結果呢,因為公告越覽嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6488.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6504.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
案 當他一定要預告的時候啊馬上觀音這個議題的公民團體馬上就在網路上開始串聯開始發聲那麼呢很多委員都受到了他們的詢問說這個法務部這個案子是怎麼跑出來的你們在立法院有沒有討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6506.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6528.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們也是去跟法務部說了解才知道這個原來不是針對性的修法是一個整體性的調整並無意對這個其實實務上已經甚少援引處刑的法條與刑法的加大我舉這個例子就是說其實今天揭弊者保護法討論很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6529.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6557.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但是整個社會上我們看到了為什麼我說一開始我就問公聽會在這個公聽會當中我們發現還是以一些比較具規模的企業團體舉例來講它雖然有一個叫做中華民國全國中小企業總會但是他們說有150萬家的中小企業我就很疑惑說來參加我們的立法研討會5月28號研討會這一位理事 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6557.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6574.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6581.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6602.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
工程技術顧問這些商業同業工會他們都有講還有工業總會那單單從我看到在107年當時這5月28號的一個揭弊者保護法的草案的研修會現在是113年了113年這是6年前的那到現在我們回顧6年前這個事情提出來之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6603.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6623.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
到我們在113年7月8號就是我們主席召委呢排定的公聽會上呢我們再度去看被應邀來的學界業界的代表大概的意見呢也很接近只是說大家對於公部門先行或公司分流是越來越明確那這反映的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6624.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6653.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
反映經過這6年7年來大家對於施部門如何去落實或是去履行揭弊者保護這樣的一套法制度還是有所保留甚至在我們5月16號其實由召委安排的併案審查會當時有包括了我們在場的專委員跟審法委員其實不在場的謝榮介委員跟林思明委員基本上我看起來大家都是談公私分流 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6654.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6677.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
希望能夠公部門先行。」那如果在之前的併案審查我們本委員會的委員包括我們公聽會外界的聲音我覺得有兩個部分大家是有共識的公部門先行那公部門是不是可以用我們昭和為目前主席所提出的版本我覺得很值得我們來花時間研究我覺得這已經提出了一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6677.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6696.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
第二就是司部門的擔心到底目前是不是相關的企業他們都民間團體或者是這些小店家他們都了解到這個法之後到底對他有影響或沒有影響那其實也感謝剛剛主席有提到的像正能保護法這樣的思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6697.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6721.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那其實在之前的委員的答覆當中其實過去我們所擔心的這98%以上的中小企業他們會不會因為這個揭弊者保護法因為一下子就適用到私部門那會造什麼衝擊他們有瞭解了嗎那麼有提到說什麼就有提到說現在的勞資正義調處過去我在地方政府任職的時候我們也經常發現勞資正義調處現在對於勞工跟僱主的權益關係的約束 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6725.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6750.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
案件,此事已經對於勞僱雙方他們在勞資爭議的時候有時候我們會看到是屬於內部的比如說受僱者因為勞資爭議他因為在內部他也舉發了僱主的其他的比如環保啦消防啦這些相關的這個法規上的他可能沒有落實執行那其實原本是一個就 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6753.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6774.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
案 發動來講他是一個勞資爭議但是呢他會變成是用檢舉的方式到公部門去形成類似這樣的一個作為那這還是只是說中小企業喔這些微型企業喔還不包括剛剛主席趙惠所說的大型的企業要併購啊他們會有這樣的一種商業上的攻防的行為這還不論所以呢到底揭弊檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6777.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6801.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
證人這些法的競合上是不是有充分的時間讓這些中小企業主這些勞僱雙方都有充分的方式去理解不至於就像我們剛剛說的墮胎的刑責加重的這樣的一個預告造成了各界一個突然的不要說驚慌或惶恐就是驚訝不知道怎麼因應那我是覺得以這樣的例子來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6803.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6824.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們同時可以看到過去這五六年來其實剛剛有委員也提到其實檢舉這樣的一個行為在台灣社會他其實必須他開始執行的時候大家感受到我在家門口的違規停車之前好像左鄰右舍相安無事現在就變成左鄰右舍互相報復的一種方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6824.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6852.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那造成執法人員的一個困擾其實這裡面也反映出剛剛審判會委員所提到的揭弊者的保護法它其實的另外一個前面就是一個公部門的一個透明化或是公司企業的透明化如果這個透明化能夠達到適當的揭露其實單單是包括私人企業的營運的透明化就足以讓營運者不要侵存僥倖去想要去從事一些對公眾利益有傷害的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6853.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6865.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我再強調一次剛剛省委員所提到的一個透明的接入的制度大概就會涵蓋去預防防範不管是公司部門尤其是私部門因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6867.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6883.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
引力不公開所造成的大眾的一個監督的不知確如而造成他去有意呢去侵害公共利益我的意思說並不是透明公開由公眾來監督不是這個意思透明公開還不用公眾來檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6886.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6913.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這些從事人員就應該有所忌憚而不敢去碰觸那原來這樣的一個透明公開的想法到了我們現在所說的檢舉達人是變成用人民來取代公權力的不足要去做這樣的耳目來對於並不完全公開但是只有少數的民眾他知道的行為去進行舉發的時候我們看到造成的結果就是大量的摩擦 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6914.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6936.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
案件,因為呢其實民間的檢舉啊跟公權力的判斷他的法定的要件是否足夠檢舉人未必能夠掌握所以我們看到很多檢舉就兩種情況一個是檢舉呢是徒勞無功的但是呢造成執法者的疲於奔命另外一種這個檢舉呢欸其實是缺乏一個全面性執法的關照的很多的交通違規其實我問過很多交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6938.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6956.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
案案 實施經驗﹚如果是駕駛人的這種行為他們考量到當下的情況雖然有可能是違規但是不至於對其他的用路人造人妨礙的時候基本上他們是不予舉發的但是如果只有照片或一個很短處的影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6957.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6986.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
案 當這樣的一個檢舉呢到交通司法機關的時候往往呢這些員警啊交通的裁罰呢他就必須開出去開出去的時候就變成被檢舉者啊還要到交通法庭上呢去做陳述去做說明去做反證我講的這些所謂的檢舉達人在過去這幾年來我們身為區議選出來的地方的民意代表我們受理到很多民眾的民怨其實他們未必不能理解說立法上 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6987.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7011.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
案 提供民眾檢舉的確是能有效嚇阻一些不法的行為但是如果制度的設計上沒有給民眾充分的去適應那相關的了解那就造成大量的摩擦的民怨那今天呢很樂於看到主席用修正動議的方式提出了一個以公部門跟國營事業為主的版本那麼是否呢可以容我們委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7012.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7039.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
簽名等19人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件事宜和部門相關的部門去做個瞭解然後我也覺得像這樣的一個揭弊者保護法很重要那麼事實上今天的討論如果能夠讓更多未來受到揭弊者保護法影響的相關人員包括人民或團體他能夠理解的話我相信對這個法令在推動的時候就不會造成了一些不必要的摩擦跟恐慌那最後回應剛剛委員提到的其實我們今天的立法途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7040.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7041.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7064.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7072.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
有些路是我們可能走起來很崎嶇有些路可能是走起來走不通的那是不是這些地圖集我們還要一張一張的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7074.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7075.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7104.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7105.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
條文名稱及條稱的內容,我相信是值得我們支持肯定的。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7134.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7138.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7160.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7189.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
案 當時沒有沒有我的意思我們一起在這邊一個條文一個條文弄然後我們主張公部門先行然後這個部分大家還要這邊反對這個意義就不大我就意義不大你們什麼時候可以針對公部門的部分大家現在的擔憂是對於很多中小企業或者說你公司部門並行產生的衝擊但是如果採取現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7190.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7216.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
案案案單軌先行公佈門的部分。」您怎麼有一個態度啊?或者說以現在吳宗憲委員的版本,你們認為哪一些地方他有自在難行的地方,你們也應該要用你們的看法提出來討論啊?這是現實嗎?要不然買了你,買了你通過的條文,這特地保留了一個保留了一個,是救命啊,跟大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7217.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7243.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那個版本搞不好會讓你們覺得更知愛難行啊那是不是你們也可以有比較成熟的看法來逐公大家來做一個討論會好一點這個我說實在話啦這個是以前幾年了我問幾屆了這個應該是第9第8屆還是第9第9因為真的有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7248.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7273.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那不是說那個時候提出來就是一定要跟著走也都未必社會上還是要最大的共識可是今天這樣的討論完我發現公部門先行是有共識的兩邊都有共識的因為擔心的只是衝擊到事部門的部分是不是你們也可以考量一下我講的比較委婉你們應該要有你們的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7275.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7280.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
考慮看看部長你看看因為大家講完這個意思就很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7282.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7286.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓊等22人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7310.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7329.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那這部分其實在行政委員就充分的一個討論因為這個意見還是很難整合很難整合我們要參索各方的意見我想法律的可行性必須要大家有一個共識那我們是把這個共識部分我們就可以就先退這個我都贊成這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7331.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7331.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7356.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7364.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
刑政的版本我想我們可以再去做一個討論我想這部分既然我們有有這樣可以再聚焦 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7365.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7366.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7398.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7424.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
行政院有提版本嗎?我補充一個點就是說因為已經拖很久了從第九屆到現在那其實相關的問題既然法務部已經有15個版本那表示法務部內部應該是有非常多的溝通嘛那因為剛剛那個中委員是希望說再給那個行政機關回去再去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7425.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7425.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7432.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7434.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7462.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7463.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
案件,此外,此外,此外,此外。 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7487.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7506.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
公部門以及國營企業基本上他是沒有什麼競爭者的在沒有什麼競爭者的情況下如果都造成社會大亂你如果貿然的用到民間企業的話那會很恐怖會有非常多的中小企業甚至上市上位公司莫名其妙就爆發一個大事情股價暴跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7506.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7513.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7536.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7547.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們要鼓勵說有問題還是他們的員工還是要出來檢舉但是就是在這段時間短時間的這幾年內我覺得可以利用正能保護法去填補這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7548.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7567.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
保護法草案案案件事宜﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7578.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7598.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
郭昌我再說明一次我們等行政院等法務部等得夠久了等得非常久一而再再而三的催促你們拿出你們的版本來就是說還在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7599.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7625.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那沒關係啊你們行政院就慢慢討論吧繼續不斷的演繹啊不斷的演繹啊演繹到看行政院到底什麼時候要有立場啊立法機關在等了這麼久以後絕對不可能啊因為行政院不斷的演繹啊持續的演繹啊一直演繹啊法案就不往前推啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7627.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7639.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
真正高明在阻擋立法的方式不是說反對是說知識體大要再多考慮從2017年斯卡爾國際會議到現在7年了7年了7年了還考慮不出來7年還想不出來還要再7年嗎還是再14年再21年 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7657.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7685.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我自己留在反貪腐公寓開國際審查會議花納稅人的錢搞大拜拜找這麼多國際專家學者講的話自己都不會臉紅我前面發言我老實說我是希望比較和緩一點大家有不同的意見都好就往前進就往前進但我沒有辦法容忍配合行政部門繼續再拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7689.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7717.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這件事情我沒有辦法容忍,配合行政部門繼續再拖。昭偉本與立法委員的職權,你綜合各方面的考慮,提出一個修正版本,我也尊重。我未必完全贊成,但我知道你怎麼想,我也尊重。那其他委員有不一樣的想法,歡迎提出修正動議來。那要不然的話,我們就一直在這邊打轉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7721.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7744.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以我是不是建議我們就繼續往下走你也不一樣的看法請容我再說明一次我們非常歡迎你按照你的看法提你的修正動議來你如果連昭緯的國營事業你都不贊成那你就提一個第一條的修正動議只有公部門阿私部門就把它完全刪除這也是一種立場但我們不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7748.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7775.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
按照一個虛無縹緲完全不知道在哪裡的版本進行法案的討論跟審議啊今天中憲、昭偉跟其他委員連署提出了一個修正的版本我說我未必贊成但我會尊重因為我們最起碼還是負責任的在審法案繼續往前推嘛那要不然提這個7月版本出來的委員提的時間夠久啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7777.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7802.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
也巡打啦也開公聽會啦那是現在是只要有人說要等就一定要等嗎今天好不容易我真的等了很久了今天好不容易終於終於排審了今天我講的比較極端一點在政策立場上大家覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7804.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7833.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
你那個範圍沒有定下面條文錯綜複雜沒有辦法繼續往下走那沒有關係啊我們第一條就先表決啊各自為各自的政策立場負責嘛第一條表決完了確定是公部門還是昭緯的公部門加國營事業那還是其他委員提的公司部門你第一條定了以後我們接下來就往下走啦就按照那個方向就往前進啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7835.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7856.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
就不要說好像大家都覺得說啊你這樣子搞不弄這樣子弄沒有沒有很清楚的路徑然後很多條文都導致要保留這樣不好啊不希望委員會保留這麼多條文那沒有關係啊我們每一個人為自己的政策立場負責任確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7859.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7866.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我們就往下走不能一直在原地打轉啊拖太久了啊真的先那個翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7874.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7874.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
法務部提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7904.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7921.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
提案的方向是一致的基本上就是公司部門全部都涵蓋在內雖然說剛剛主席吳宗慶委員他有提了修正動議但是我認為無論如何我們就可以繼續往前進了就不要再拖時間這個時間已經拖太久了我們也知道現在台灣的弊案重申 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7926.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7927.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7952.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7954.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
主席提出修正動議事實上往前進了一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7974.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7985.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那也就是我剛才我在大體討論的時候我所提的究竟是這個公司並行還是說公部門先行的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7986.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8013.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個主席所提的修正同意基本上就是以公部門先行為主那這部分我們也覺得說這個可以這樣子我們就討論的基礎而且我們希望說能夠就這個版本我們能夠接下來往後再來看這個版本的這些相關內容但是剛才大家所提的齁其實我們回過頭來想 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8015.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8044.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
剛才委員大家一直說啊拖太久了我們等太久了但是我們今天回過頭來想看到昭偉的這樣子的修正動議我們是不是會覺得說還好那時候有拖還好有這個過程讓各方表達意見也讓我們的昭偉能夠思考到他原本所提的版本這個公司部門合併施行的這種版本的可能發生的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8046.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8070.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
如果沒有這段時間大家的這個留下這個時間讓大家各方意見如果說在幾個月前大家就開會就表決就這樣子過了那可能今天連昭和也會非常扼腕的後悔那時候為什麼這樣子通過那所以今天我們有這樣的版本我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8071.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8096.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
不能說是原地踏步有提出這樣的修正動議我覺得今天就是有進展我認為說這個揭弊者保護法在經過這麼長時間大家對於公司部門是不是要合併實行這件部分好像看起來至少至少我們跟國民黨達成了一個共識民眾黨有不同的意見那我覺得這個就是進展啊這個不是原地踏步我覺得這就是進展那 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8097.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8115.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以我覺得是可以以這個主席所提的修正動議作為基礎但是畢竟這個是一個修正動議我們所看到今天議程上面的七個版本全部都是公司合併施行但是新的這個修正動議是公部門跟國營事業先行 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8117.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8139.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那我們今天所要立的法是不是就以修正就我們就用修正動議的方式我們在今天大家要大家在這會議裡面就修正動議大家來來來來來研議就就直接的來討論通過然後再通過一個附帶決議說我們有適形意味的的附帶決議說我們先試今天先通過然後三年之後要檢討這個我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8143.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8167.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個我覺得與其我們今天通過這樣子的一個用修正動議提出來的一個法案再讓我們今天所有的委員我們今天才看到的這個法案我們今天再通過然後再用附帶決議再來說三年之後試行三年之後再來檢討那為什麼不好比如說再三個禮拜或再三個禮拜的時間讓大家就這個修正動議的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8169.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8169.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8180.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8208.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
是不是應該有一個時間讓大家就今天主召委所提出來修正動議的內容讓大家回去研究一下這裡面有沒有問題而不是今天說我們今天提一個修正動議大家今天就照這個修正動議過然後再提一個附帶決議說我們事情先棄跨埋呀我們今天司法法制委員通過一個法案來棄跨埋呀棄殺你然後三年後我們再來檢討我覺得是不是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8211.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8220.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們要大家就有一個想法就是說今天這樣不是我們沒有原地踏步我們確實是進展了一步讓大家有一些共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8221.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8248.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
就是因為過去有這樣的時間留下這樣的時間讓大家思考之後大家才會有今天的共識所以我是希望說我們委員會今天是不是大家能夠就這個修正動議再讓委員會一點時間也許回去召委可能再過幾天可能又有不同的想法這個誰知道還好之前有拖要不然今天不會有這樣子的修正動議出來對不對以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8251.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8260.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們依序就是有紅委員然後在中委員然後那個中委員還有那個楊委員我試著不帶情緒但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8269.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8294.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
剛有委員完美的示範什麼叫做站著說話不腰疼這句話含義其實我覺得趙偉您今天比法務部長更像法務部長因為你很負責任的把國家面臨到的問題以及我們食物經驗的問題還有有可能發生的問題並且解決的問題全部都提出來你很負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8297.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8317.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
說實在話這個修正動議或者是吹哨者保護法我們只有討論幾個月嗎?錯了討論了7年了2017年開始之後第9屆就有吹哨者保護法討論行政院有版本到了2020年第10屆的時候我們也有提過吹哨者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8318.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8345.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
每年我們都要求法務部要提出相關版本質詢都質詢不知道幾次了到了2024年第11屆的時候才能夠真的再坐下來有大體討論跟要主條所以不是幾個月不是幾年是至少7年時間7年時間這中間發生了多少弊案這中間發生了多少不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8346.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8367.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
疫苗採購快篩採購還是雞蛋採購還是所有爭議的弊案如果說有吹哨者的制度能夠駕馭保護的話是不是這些弊案有可能可以提早發生的一天不知道提早發現的一天不知道因為我們沒有這個法案保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8368.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8386.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以很簡單嘛我們還要犧牲國人生活權益多久我們才要真正認真的討論揭弊者保護法主條我認為是勢在必行因為今天我們七個委員的版本並且有黨團的版本本來就已經攤開來各黨團助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8390.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8416.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
行政部門也都已經研究這相關的條文而今天的這個修正動議其實只是範圍的一個部分條文內容沒有大幅度的一個改變也因此當然可以針對主條的討論來去做意見的一個彙整跟交流但我必須更要講啊我到目前其實還是沒有看到共識啊有委員一直講說有共識了有共識了沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8417.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8437.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
七個委員的版本跟一個黨團的版本是公私合併我們提出的修正動議現在是吳宗憲委員召委並且謝榮介委員、羅志強委員跟洪孟楷委員的簽名啊充其量這個是吳宗憲委員提出來的修正動議啊這哪有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8439.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8468.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以不用站著說話不腰疼然後現在貼上來哇趕快如果說有拿出版本負責任的白紙黑字的寫出來不要說想要通過什麼扭扭捏捏裝模作樣還不敢留下自己的名字這不是一個負責任的做法以上謝謝好那下一位我們請中委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8471.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8497.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
謝謝這是一個新創法揭弊者保護法是一個新創法它不是原來既有條文的條文部分修正就連部分條文的修正以剛剛我說的墮胎刑罰加強請問法務部你們要公告多久是不是先請部長回答一下原來那個部分你們是預定公告多久兩個禮拜要公告兩個禮拜那是行政院通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8500.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8502.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8529.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8554.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那麼我們既在說揭弊者保護法多少年多少年了那麼我在這裡容我這樣說修正動議這四個字啊在我們立法院委員會是很常見的但是大家記憶猶生的是在今年的五月的時候我們有一些稱為國會擴權的法案它的版本也是很多版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8555.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8582.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
到後來呢是在最後一刻院會的時候啊要進行二讀討論之前就一個修正動議的綜合版橫空伸出啊從天而降啊包括提案的兩個黨團多數的委員都不曉得他是怎麼跑出來的只有部分委員說這是經過一個晚上的及時廣益絞盡腦汁就跑出一個修正動議出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8583.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8583.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8602.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8602.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8618.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8639.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
案件中﹑一）委員吳宗憲遭毀的版本有17條,你的修正動議有7條,這個體力跟原來7個版本完全不同。從公私並行到公部門為主,或者說公部門加上國營事業,這個不可不為是一個相當大的轉變。 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8640.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8644.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8662.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8663.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
判決動議判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8690.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8716.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那麼我還是要提出剛剛召委所提出的兩個附帶決議這個其實就是我們國民法官法當時在推的時候所遇到的情況國民法官法在4年前我相信也是上一屆國會在司法法制委員會甚至各黨團的重中之重包括民間已經討論很久到底是陪審制還是參審制 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8718.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8742.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這還是一個影響到要有相當法學素養的民眾才能參與的議題但是仍然有許多的公民團體人權團體真的到各黨團去進行遊說進行說明那縱使如此在最後通過的國民法官法的版本當中也留了一個類似這樣子六年後來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8744.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8756.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
引進一個新的制度像國民法官這個制度現在進行到第三年了我們也看到了這幾年來台灣社會在適用國生法 國民法 國法法案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8757.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8762.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8778.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8788.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
從7個版本全部是公司並行,到現在召委的版本要改成以公為主,擴及到穩贏事業。這個方向我覺得有呼應了這段時間部分團體的討論所揭發出來的一個問題,一個盲點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8794.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8794.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
案件,此外,此外,此外。 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8817.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8830.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我們是有版本的今天這七個版本好歹說這七個委員的版本都是在我們的立法的公報資料上各個團體可以看得到的那麼目前的修正動議是看不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8831.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8832.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
案 〈揭弊者保護法草案〉案 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8847.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8870.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個內容是不是根本的改變了原來七個版本公司並行的結構我想不言可喻所以我在這裡也是慎重的呼籲主席既然是一個體力上跟原來七個版本有相當大幅度的一個調整稱之為修正動議太小看了這是一個新的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8871.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8896.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個版本避免重套五月份我們國會擴權法案在院會的審查期間倉促提出七零八落後來還遭到憲判整個予以大部分宣告為違憲那麼沒有違憲的條文其實也造成了調適程序上許多需要調整的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8897.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8898.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
法律法律法律法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8913.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8928.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
案（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8938.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8955.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們對於任何重大的法案我們都希望召開公聽會有時候不同黨團像昭緯崇善如流有召開公聽會那有的時候呢是我們共同去推動像我們談到的上個本星期談到的稅務事件稅務事件審理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8956.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8978.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那這個稅務稅審法在下週我就已經發出通知了我們要召開公聽會了那我也希望主席秉持這樣的精神我們共同的對這樣全新的版本也來徵詢社會各界的意見以上建議我們一位一位來就是那個剛是楊委員你是跟那個羅委員要換嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8981.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8986.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案 》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9005.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9034.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
會不會行政版本?行政版本會不會提出?現在在行政院審理中法務部行政院在審理中行政院在審查中行政院在審查中我們那個法務部的版本行政院在審查還要多久?這個還在審查所以未知嘛未知嘛好那這個案子呢因為社會面向非常的需要我們面對到很多的問題必須要有法去執行之 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9035.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9036.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9058.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9081.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
在這一些各個委員本來就應當提出你各自的論點大家來大體討論大體討論我覺得今天主要的重點大家有沒有認為這個法是必須要來討論的這個法是必須要通過的這個法是必須要能夠讓揭弊者得到保護我想這三點的原則大家沒有人會反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9082.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9083.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9105.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9106.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9133.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9157.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
但我們的確要面對到什麼呢我們的社會面向他的需求他的需求這一點我相信我們大家身為民意代表都必須要去好好的審慎討論之這是以上我的建言所以我非常希望大體討論之後怎麼樣實際的主條來討論這才是我們立法必要的一個流程以上建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9158.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9176.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
下一位請莊委員欸那個跟委員是不是說因為時間的關係大家盡量就發一次就好就不要我很快的我很快的我很快的我很快的朝偉謝謝我是覺得啦立法院大家不要吹牛啦齁大家講這個空話沒有意義啦這部法律要怎麼樣弄齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9177.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9204.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我相信大家都心有定見我自己也有我自己的看法但是我還是要再來救教就是說今天沒有辦法進入的一個原因就比如說不管是吳釗偉提的或者說台灣民眾黨所提的第三條所講的弊案如果說到最後你把它定性成說我們所謂的弊案是在講說針對以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9207.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9215.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
犯罪行為條例中指涉的公共利益及清潔重大者等以外其他叫法務部去定涉及到刑法跟處罰的部分叫法務部來定這個會不會給他們權限太大這是我從頭到尾我第一個我完全針對這個在講的另外第二個其實談到現在來看的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9236.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9257.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
幾乎現在變成說是雙軌然後公部門先行這個部分大概有共識那既然是有共識的話常常是涉及到的公益事業非常多阿不然很簡單嘛 趙委很簡單嘛那已經大家走到這邊有共識不然在另一邊的公益事業不能說他們在修法的時候沒辦法的人在這裡嘛 也很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9258.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9258.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9282.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9304.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那你既然要涉及到公部門,不然你就召委你再領著,你就衝我比較老的啊,衝我比較大型的啊,再用水甲讓我來啊。這個是我這兩點的看法。第三點的看法是說,我對召委您的版本我也不滿啊。就是說我覺得這個部分像比如說既然是公部門啊,那政務部門、民代 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9306.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9330.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
案件,是不是可以再做考慮?這是好事啊。啊不然我們總是要說我們禮拜年都要製作給別人試的,我們自己就都沒有。啊這也好奇怪,就沒有一個說理啊,沒有一個說理啊。所以如果你條文,一個條文一個條文仔細去看,而不是來這邊要講場面化的,你就可以抓到整個問題的核心嘛。我認為今天就是一個進步啊。但是要先講好啊,科與法務部你要有責任啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9333.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9336.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9357.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9384.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
第9屆確實就是法案出來是因為社會沒共識這個講得最大聲的就是黃國昌委員你說那是不對嗎那也不是不對只是說社會的衝擊面但是整個條文裡面的一個設計裡面我還是認為我有疑慮的一個地方以上幾點請趙偉來做一個參考當然就是說中委員如果說對於是不是要急於民待什麼那中委員也是可以提 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9384.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9390.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
公益揭弊者保護法草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9411.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9412.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
案 等22人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 等22人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9428.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9445.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
主席剛剛鍾嘉賓委員非常好心有提醒我們今天如果說我們不放慢今天的修法腳步的話有可能又發生今天大法官把國會改革宣判違憲這個情形但是好心提醒大家了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9446.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9468.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
案。但是我覺得中委員的好心大可以放心。剛好提這個例子就顯現什麼?反正大法官都已經可以封殺民進黨主張20年的國會改革。然後呢還確保說民進黨主張20年的國會改革是違憲的。還公開的確保了今天官員在這個國會說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9471.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9474.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
法律委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9489.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9515.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我覺得大法官應該也會非常先進的就率全世界民主國家之先來宣布保護揭弊者的權益應該也是違憲的侵犯憲政權利所以剛好我覺得鍾嘉賓委員的好心就顯現出這件事你們可以放心另外我要特別講左七年右七年拖了七年再七年 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9516.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9537.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
今天如果說我們今天的揭弊者保護法是從今天從石頭裡蹦出來的石猴子那你要請如來佛出來叫他說就都媽的一下我覺得還可以說得過去已經蹦了7年啦你的所謂的司法的國事會議當中就這個結論你民進黨執政了這麼多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9541.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9560.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
真的嗎?然後另外我也必須說我們的主席吳宗憲主席他是今天是真的是把所有的意見喊納出來所以他提出了他的修正建議修正動議那我覺得基本上我的看法很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9561.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9589.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
實際上周縣主席跟我討論這修正東西的時候我也講出我的意見我說第一個有兩個東西應該是社會高度共識因為這兩個部門是需要我們一起來努力的監督來去防弊同時保障今天揭弊者的這個所謂的權益就是跟公部門有關因為我們現在因為有大法官做為所謂那個很少千秋的後盾我覺得現在監督政府力量真的越來越薄弱了 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9590.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9617.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
實際上不落到說連人民的力量都要把它抑止的話我覺得這對台灣民主是不利的所以對於兩個跟公家有關的部門公部門本身國營事業這兩個部門我覺得揭弊者應該是個是我們大家的共識就是要受到保護所以保護不只是保護人民的所謂的權利其實也是我們國家重要的防腐機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9618.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9636.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
不要因為今天我們的保這個揭弊機制不夠對不對國會已經被斷手斷腳了阿現在人民這邊你是要讓人民也有一個可以來監督來去揭弊然後去促使國家清廉的機制這一點已經講了7年啦這應該是故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9637.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9665.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
吳宗憲主席講的是司部門一般民間的部門那是不是在揭弊的部分應該要有所區隔那是不是可以有不同的一些方式來處理我覺得這是一個所謂的先把公約帶提出來的一個好方式不等於說司部門今天就不需要有所謂的揭弊的相關保護但是公部門先行這個概念我是可以接受的所以我也我簽了我們主席的這個修正的動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9666.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9692.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
但在這邊我也要必須講主席這個出發點結果我發現我們的民進黨的委員齁就說哎呀你看嘛對不對你看嘛這個思考不周延嘛那現在要修改嘛欸我要跟大家講話不能這樣講吧那如果到這種程度我今天必須說啊我說部長法務部真的這樣子造成我們主席的困擾也不好吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9692.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9708.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
案件主席兼代法務部長整合一些意見你今天到現在為七年你行政院沒版本你法務部沒版本你連民進黨今天要提出一個像我們吳宗憲委員這樣的版本也都提不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9709.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9727.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
到現在來好像是把吳宗憲委員的這樣的一個所謂的周圓的思考當作今天延宕今天我們這個所謂的審查的一個理由抱歉這一點我覺得我為吳宗憲主席抱屈了所以最後我要講什麼其實至少在公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9728.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9756.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
在政府機關在國營事業這部分的揭秘者保護我認為已經是非常成熟了已經有高度共識那這一部分既然如此我們就送草也協商針對這一部分我們來細緻化那針對其他私部門部分也還是可以討論但是至少不要再左七年右七年拖了七年再七年這樣下去永遠遙遙無期嘛所以拜託我覺得今天就是努力讓我們法案能夠送出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9757.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9760.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
復活社會大眾對於揭弊者保護的期待 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9788.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9788.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9815.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9817.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
案 〈揭弊者保護法草案〉案 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9845.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9845.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9876.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9876.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10155.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10156.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我之前這個案件的過程我請教廉政書長有沒有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10183.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10207.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
首先我請教你,我們就實務來看這個揭弊者保護有重要嗎?我說郭文哲他這個競合性這個案,是由北檢有機會你們廉政署去辦嗎?有嗎?他去搜查那天應該是八月三十,去搜查你們的人去 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10213.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10240.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
有誰去參加這個活動?搜索嗎?搜索。基本上就是檢察官處隊。林鄭樹的林鄭官。你們靠後的進步應該不是檢察官先退去,是你們先退去。靠後的進步啦。有我們這邊先。你們先來,如果最後再上去北檢。還是你們一集就上去北檢? |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10243.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10243.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
事務局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10260.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10289.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
案案,您提到這個政府是不是要先去做粗暴的分析?對不對?所以粗暴的分析,你不可以去問被告說這個規定是怎樣怎樣?好來,如果這樣後問後你不可以去檢查說我報告,我粗暴的金分起來,這個規定是怎樣怎樣?是不是這樣?這裡都沒有不對啦齁?所以廉政公在處理這個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10291.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10317.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
會否向你或副署長報告?我們這個案件是由北調組來負責,然後基本上是由我們的副署長在其中當這個整個團隊的副署長。副署長。這樣關問題的USB裡面有沒有寫1500?這個部分我們基本上是跟甲官這邊做報告,我這邊並不會去問這個問題。你若檢查公安報告, |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10320.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10337.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
局主那些暈斷就對了,有去給你們報告嗎?那些硬碟?這部分都是我們都會跟甲官這邊做報告的。你有沒有直接跟檢察官報告?所以參與這班的檢察的檢控跟檢診室以外,除了你們這兩個單位以外,還有什麼人會知道? |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10343.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10361.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
經華城的這個案件裡面,如果委員問的是偵查不公開的話,其實參與的部分其實也蠻多法律相關的成員人員會知道。阿還有人?除了你跟檢察官以外,阿還有?過程中接觸到整個卷證的一些,不是只有檢察官跟連證官。 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10363.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10364.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
法律委員楊瓊瓊等22人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10382.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10405.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
判斷判斷判斷判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10411.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10440.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是在開記者庭的時候我跟妳說 手記USB 跟行事曆阿伯那些保護人發光室阿伯 所以酒館補這個我的意思是說還停留在檢察官跟妳廉政署啦 我不是說妳廉政署一定有問題啦 我現在在說這個規定這樣下來 辦案 如果今天有這個揭弊者保護法 有監視者的 當然妳下去保 廉政官在分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10443.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10460.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
你現在說去搜索的人有什麼,搜索的人他也沒看到這些東西,真正的擔保是因為東西給你解讀出來之後分析出來之後,酒缸在洗臉的時候叫洗到有殼有臭,我們現在在擔心的是說我們的公信是否這樣會受損嘛,第二再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10465.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10481.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
人們說這條線路我已經有經營7年了這對包括國會議員包括國防這都很害怕包括國家的公司我們也都很害怕哪有說我們是中華民國的心水還是我們在奉經營的你們裡面自己的檢察官也看不下去我說你們的檢察官裡面也有人看不下去這是好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10496.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10499.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
檢聯高層跟媒體一種共生的新生態。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10524.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10538.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
案．二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10550.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10550.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10562.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10576.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
委員跟您報告其實我們的辦案團隊我們其實就是聽甲官的一個指示下辦案那事實上來講就是說連我本身也不會去接觸到卷證對阿所以我剛才有問你嘛是你或是副書長或是誰你說副書長專案嘛好我不是執政令啦我是說你要對這個規定裡面去哄 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10587.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10604.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
案件,封堵說他要你辦人和案件,不能再像這樣了,不然比如說你去搜索林志廟這個事情,那時候應該不是你,你還在裡面的嘛,那時候你也在裡面嘛,181年那時候嘛,這麼久嘛,結果一般的搜索了,我還沒說欸,新聞委員不好意思啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10606.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10612.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10631.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10636.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10661.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10664.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10691.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10691.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10717.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10717.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10736.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10737.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10773.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10790.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝主席首先我要先講一下這個揭弊者保護法那他現在從過去到現在有7年的時間那第一個行政院在這7年時間為什麼都沒有提出版本來原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10792.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10792.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10808.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10831.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
因為呢大家已經等了7年了不可能讓你們拖延時間然後又到第8年又到第9年永遠都在等著你的院板所以我的態度是如果在我們要準備審查主條之前院板出不來我們立法委員沒有要等待行政院的必要性因為這是所有全民都在等待的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10832.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10847.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那剛才好像是中嘉賓委員吧我看直播的時候有談到就是說你比喻了這個交通檢舉達人造成的社會問題跟缺效者去比較那這點我是完全不能同意的喔因為今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10848.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10864.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
案 公部門他們如果發生違規那裡面的吹哨者他沒有辦法檢舉沒有法律保護的情況這跟那些已經自己違規然後被檢舉的交通罰單我覺得這是完全沒有類比的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10865.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10889.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那我要特別談到的是我自己是國防外交委員會的委員所以我有非常多的包含是公部門也好私人企業也好發現了很多在國防外交包含是軍品不管是綁標也好或者是做一些違法的事項也好那要提供我們相關的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10891.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10902.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
可是我們在沒有揭弊者保護法的情形之下他們總是告訴我們這個要遮這個要掩因為呢不然萬一被發現是我們的話那就完蛋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10904.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10921.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以很多願意把真相講出來來幫忙一起檢討政府改進施政的人因為他沒有揭弊者保護法所以他很多事情不敢講這就是現況我再舉一個例子過去我在台北市擔任議員的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10924.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10952.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
有一次就有公務人員向我們提出說有一個案子我具體不講反正他們就提出一個認為政府做在選舉期間利用公帑行選舉之時的一個案子那那個是確切有其事我也拿到了相關的資料但當我公佈了以後我們的行政院相關部門所做的事情是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10953.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10979.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我後來知道行政院部門到處在找到底是誰提供資料這就是沒有揭弊者保護法之後會發生的事情你明知道他們做這件事情是不對的但是呢你講出來以後制止了這件事情發生對公民社會來說是一件好事但我們的國家卻沒有任何的立場跟法源來保護這個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10981.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11002.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以我們等了7年不能再等下去就像羅志強委員剛剛提到的如果這是一個今天才拋出來的案子我們大可以公聽會啊什麼啊什麼啊大家發言啊都可以講很久可是7年欸這是多少人的光陰多少人的等待 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11002.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11028.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
多少人在這個過程當中他想作為一個吹哨者他可能被發現了他明明是為國為民去發聲行一些讓不公不義的事情被揭露出來結果他的下場是什麼是被我們的行政機關也好或是其他那變成是公審甚至他就沒有官座了降職考基達很差 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11030.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11058.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以我認為這個法在公部門這個部分是不能再等了所以我希望知道說所謂的如果今天有院板一起納進來討論我完全不會反對有院板進來討論當然是好事啊可是如果你們遲遲不提出院板每次都在說哎呀我們現在還在核定沒有給我們一個期限那不好意思我們沒有義務要再等行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11059.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11062.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以我這邊來建議主席就是說呢剛才因為行政院他們有特別講說他們有在審議版本嘛那是不是可以向主席確認說他們在什麼時間之前要提出願版 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11075.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11098.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那如果來協商一下那如果超過這個時間我們沒有在做任何等待的必要性那在那此之前我們也可以針對我們的委員的法案進行審查然後等這個行政院的版本送入之後那再一併進入主條但如果你要告訴我說你的合訂是要等到明年的話那不好意思我們也沒有辦法接受以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11100.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11119.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
謝謝那個薛委員因為剛剛那個部長來的時候是有跟我們提說就是今天沒有要提啦那因為他們如果提的話他們要送去行政院行政院什麼時候會核定沒有人知道啊行政院今天也沒有人來我們那個法務部的版本目前都已經提到行政院生意了我們知道我們知道已經15版了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11120.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11138.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
案 已經15個版本,那現在因為這個東西不是部長能夠決定的那我們可能在這邊問部長他也沒有辦法給我們一個答案所以我還是尊重其他每個委員都已經那接下來就是條文審查的那個進度那還有五委員請五委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11142.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11157.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
案。我個人對於這個法案的立場當然私部門在沒有社會共識之前當然不宜列入我想這個是高度的一個共識那過去7年或是倡議更久要立法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11158.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11159.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
犯罪者保護法草案案案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11179.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11180.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11199.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11220.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
反而我們應當去反思為什麼這麼多年的努力跟倡議還沒有辦法匯聚高度的共識以至於行政部門的版本還沒有辦法很周延的提到國會來我認為站在立法要非常的審慎的角度我覺得這個切入點大家應當思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11220.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11246.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那第二個如果大家初步有共識今天提出來的七個版本當中大家願意先限縮在公部門的版本那就條文論條文我第一個還是希望要有行政院的版本才能夠參採畢竟對象是公部門的話只有公部門更了解公部門的整個執行最起碼也是要有院版可以參採 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11247.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11247.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11276.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11281.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
案 雖然你在第4條你從你的原始19個條文現在調整為就是有7個條文你限縮在公部門的部分可是你看看你認為你在第4條的秀揭弊的這個對象機關限縮為公部門你認為你只秀第4條就好把4部門拿掉可是錯了你在你原始條文的第3條的弊案範圍裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11301.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11327.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
法律審查委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。adequate to the first section of Article 3, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11329.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11346.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
案 刊出的線縮在公部門的版本其實都應當還要再審慎回去看包括你第三條的閉案範圍還是把涉及司部門的保留了無緣無緣不要亂帶風向齁我是公部門跟國營事業你在講什麼東西啊好沒關係我在發言你在講什麼東西我在發言嘛那我發言完你在評論好嗎我在跟你理性我沒有在帶風向我是在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11358.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11364.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
條文,我在請教您的這些,你這些第一期,欸這是怎麼討論下去啊,如果在討論條文不能就彼此的重點,如果不能就彼此的重點討論,叫什麼討論,如果不能就彼此的條文討論,這叫什麼討論,所以我只要解釋,我要說的是,您剛剛發下來的,請讓我發言好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11388.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11392.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
主席主席請坐下主席這是我的發言時間誰沒有水準吳宗憲的表現就是沒有水準 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11418.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11440.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我繼續講我的條文您剛剛拋出來的修正動議我是檢視說就條文的本身第三條你原始條文的閉案範圍裡頭應當也要再去檢視會不會還保有跟司部門相關的部分就如此而已誰在帶風向誰在沒水準誰在沒風度 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11449.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11475.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
舊條文論條文整部的剛剛每個委員的版本不管是公司或公司並行其實吹哨者有兩種我們都把他聚焦在我們也傾向去相信都是善意的吹哨者黃國昌委員別人在發言的時候我覺得您的表情控管可能要注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11477.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11492.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
然後呢我們都把他界定為每一個揭弊者他應當都是善意的他勇敢針對不公不義來予以揭發但是也有一種他可能是基於個人的不滿報復 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11493.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11514.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所進行可能涉及誣告的行為。」所以針對整全部法律我們固然保護檢舉人甚至在法案當中個別委員的版本都提供了誘因是進一步在保護之外還給予誘因鼓勵大家挺身而出來勇敢揭弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11515.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11534.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但是呢你沒有辦法去排除有一種他可能基於個人在職務工作上的不滿報復造成的檢舉達人檢舉狂人檢舉魔人換到揭弊者他就變成吹哨的某種個人目的的一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11535.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11562.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
案件不符合真實的揭弊所以在過去例次的公聽會裡頭也有學者專家法律界提出固然保護檢舉人要嚴懲被檢舉人的報復行為但是對於我們這種惡意檢舉惡意吹哨它本身不是基於事實它也應當有同等的課則 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11563.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11583.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
他必須有同等的課則我舊條文論條文我看了全部的委員的提案我發現徐巧欣委員的版本18條是唯一一個有針對惡意檢舉的人有提出課則的條款我唯一看到這是巧欣委員有的他在第18條裡頭是說如果針對這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11587.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11614.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
揭弊者所揭露之內容若為明顯的虛偽不實或意圖栽贓毀謗他人變造證據隱瞞事實者依行為事實與情節將以應當去走誣告偽證罪交由檢調機關調查後依法起訴這是所有的版本裡面唯一一個針對惡意的檢舉者吹哨者擁有的克責的條款我基本上要肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11616.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11619.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這就是我說的舊條文論條文每一個委員的條文我看到的質疑我可以提出來就是我在提我對吳宗憲委員的條文有質疑我可以提出來這不是什麼帶風向這是理性的討論我同樣在看到第18條徐小新委員他是唯一所有的版本有針對被檢舉者的就是檢舉者的惡意行為有苛責我予以肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11640.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11656.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
但是這樣子的一個課則條款是回到司法去評斷因為公務人員如果整部法四部門的人如果你是惡意你可以請他離開但是公部門的同仁他有我們的職務保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11656.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11677.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
案件,只能夠去走司法一條嗎?或者是說本身在公務機關裡面你也可以用你的身屆這些東西的這些行政的處分去懲治、克責這種惡意的吹哨非善意者。所以舊法論法我們要很理性的就保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11678.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11699.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
善意的吹哨者跟對於惡意的檢舉人本身他也應當要有相對應的克責的規範但目前的所有條文真的都沒有只有徐曉欣委員有但是只能夠去走對於司法部分的救濟或者是在公部門裡面就要享有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11701.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11716.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
犯罪在公部門可以用的行政工具裡頭。我覺得這同樣要去思考的所以我們希望看問題有一題兩面當我們立了吹哨者保護法保護吹哨者鼓勵大家面對不公不義站出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11717.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11742.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
但我們立法要嚴謹我們也要去思考到我們不樂見因為這種提供了檢舉的獎金提供了吹哨的獎金然後去鼓動了一些人他基於他在公務機關他個人的升遷受阻或是他長期跟同事之間有不滿發生有一些不愉快的情事他就去進行了這種黑函文化胡亂的去檢舉爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11745.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11761.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
而且未基於事實,這也是可能會發生的。所以我認為在整個法部保護的一部分跟苛責的一部分要對等武器要對等這彼此是一種check and balance所以這個部分所有的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11762.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11765.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11788.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11788.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11803.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11804.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11823.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11844.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
也請大家不要再就這個事情難免討論當中會有火花可是我的本意就是就條文論條文所以我希望我還是期待既然要限縮在公部門就必須要有公部門對於這個法案的立場跟態度那不要為快而快為休而休那我不知道給予行政部門多長的時間他們會做出更嚴謹的一個法案的對岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11848.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11873.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個我尊重因為我的態度真的不是為極而極為快而快那如果要在後續探討我希望大家在這個武器均等的這個均衡上保護之外的課則也要均等去思考這是我非常關切的部分不要讓台灣成為一個黑函文化爆料文化而且是不基於事實僅止於報復這種行為這不利於我們良善的社會風氣謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11876.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11903.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那個謝謝吳委員吼因為剛剛我以為吳委員是在問我問題啦所以我就我就回應他那吳委員如果剛剛不是在問我問題那不好意思我剛剛不應該插嘴吼那那個給給給我幾秒鐘那吳委員剛剛有提到那個吼我不知道一個淺見的建議啦其實吳委員剛剛提到那個其實回歸到我國刑法的誣告跟誹謗罪其實都有相關規定那如果說對就是說我們這個這個特別法如果沒有或這個專法沒有的話其實都是回歸到刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11904.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11911.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
對對對就是說刑法其實都有相關規定就剛剛我也所提到那我這個僭建公餐而已好那我們下一位請徐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11913.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11940.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
謝謝主席也謝謝吳思耀吳委員剛剛有針對我的提案裡面有提到就是說當然我們也知道這個吹哨者保護法是要保護吹哨者但是如果有一些人他利用了這個吹哨者保護法那他去行一些黑函或是不正確的這個資訊那也會使得包含是我們立法委員受到傷害過去也曾經有過這個立法委員接到爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11941.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11954.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
保護法草案 案 報出來之後其實是錯誤的那這對於所謂的揭弊者來說也是很大的傷害所以在但是在因為大家到時候法案是併審嘛在我的第10其實有兩條我的第16條跟第18條裡面都有那我簡單念一下這個條文第16條裡面的是揭弊者依本法所受之保護不應下列情形而喪失就是所揭露之內容無法證實 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11971.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11994.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
案案案件事宜,若你的揭露內容無法證實的話,他還是受到保護,但若明顯虛偽不實,檢舉行為經誣告為證罪判決有罪,並提供閉案相關資深真實資訊,出於獲利或損害他人之不當目的者不在此現。也就是說,如果你是以上我們講的這一類型,就是剛才吳思瑤委員講到的,對不起, |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11996.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12008.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
無私要委員講到的就是說這一些所謂的可能黑函啊然後故意刻意的檢舉傷害對方啊這種是不受揭弊者保護法的保護這是在第16條那在第18條的部分寫得更清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12012.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12019.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
案。」就是說揭露的內容如果明顯虛偽不實意圖栽贓毀謗變造證據隱瞞部分事實者依其行為事實及情節誣告偽證罪交由檢調機關調查後依法起訴也就是說我們在這個版本裡面當然立法院沒有去介入司法機關的這個權利所以我們還是把這個交到檢察官這邊然後請他們去調查之後看他們是否起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12041.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12041.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12068.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12074.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們先做一個會議的宣告上個會議會進行到12點半然後休息到一點再繼續開會還有剛哪一位有舉手要發表意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12100.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12100.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12120.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12148 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
對照委員吳仲憲等19人提案。第一條第一項修正為為維護公共利益有效發現防止追究重大不法行為保障公部門及國營事業揭弊者之權益特制定本法。第四條第一項第一款分列第一款第二款為一公部門之政府機關構主管首長或其指定單位人員二國營事業之主管負責人或其指定單位人員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12149.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12167.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
案 第二項第一款中第二款或第五款之受理揭弊機關修正為第三款或第六款之受理揭弊機關。第五條第一項第二款修正為二國營事業揭弊者只接受國營事業制派任僱用定做 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12167.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12187.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
委員派遣承攬、特約或其他契約關係而提供勞務或致報酬之相對人及其員工有事實合理相信任職或提供勞務對向之國營事業或其員工。涉有第三條第五款、第七款或第八款之弊案。據明項前條第一項之受理揭弊機關提出檢舉者。 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12189.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12201.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
案 第4項本法所稱國營事業指國營事業管理法第3條所規定的事業。第7條第一項手具序文中法人團體修正為國營事業。 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12204.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12231.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
第六項首句中定為有違反前條修正為推定為有違反前條第二句中法人團體修正為國營事業第七項中法人或團體修正為國營事業第九條第八項中法人或團體修正為國營事業第十條第一項第二款中法人團體者修正為國營事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12234.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12246.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
第17條第二項中司部門修正為國營事業第三項中法人團體或僱主修正為國營事業提案人委員吳宗憲翁曉林謝龍介羅志強洪孟楷宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12281.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12282.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
公益會已經開過 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12303.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12305.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12328.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12342.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
謝謝主席我想今天在場委員大家都很關心也希望本案能夠周延的去推動那因為針對今天公益揭弊者保護法草案這是用我們召委的提案的版本的條草案文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12343.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12344.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12367.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12368.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12394.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12421.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
國營事業公營事業等問字問題造成偏差。第二個就是這裡面涉及到包含剛剛有提到的其實主席提到包括現有的政人保護法包括委員所關心的避免檢舉達人的過去的副作用這樣的一些情況再次發生因此我們希望能夠有公聽會更完整的來就這些的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12421.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12427.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
案案件收集,大概是這樣的關係,那就是希望我們可以來就自我召開公聽會來進行討論。好,那個那請問一下大家的意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12437.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12440.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
案件已經討論了很多次了而且過去7年來這樣子的案子陸陸續續都有提出我想我們今天不需要因為吳宗憲提出的修正動議還要再召開公聽會這個部分我們待會就可以直接進入到主條來進行討論在那個時候再來好好討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12461.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12477.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
而更何況這個吳宗憲委員所提的修正動議也不見得會被大家接受因為我們看到今天七個案子裡面大家都認為揭弊者保護法是應該涵蓋公部門跟私部門的而我個人基本上也支持所以呢不如就直接進入到逐條討論那我不懂的民進黨委員要在舉辦公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12481.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12483.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
案案的目的是什麼?難道還是想要繼續的去包庇去護航民進黨政府現在裡面內藏的種種弊端嗎?對你們繼續拖下去只會讓民眾認為說你們其實就是不想讓這些弊端這個揭發出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12500.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12509.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這沒有意義啊所以呢不如就是大家好好的進入竹條去討論那麼不管是待會如果說認為真的要將私部門先暫時排除在外然後只留國營事業公營事業那我們還是可以在這個地方進行妥善的討論沒有必要一直在程序上面然後開了公聽會又開公聽會一次不足兩次不足更何況這7年來已經開了多少次的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12529.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12553.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
真的沒有必要再繼續拖延下去如果我們要等行政院的版本等法務部的版本那麼事實上也不可能他們也不會這個在短時間內就能提出來若是真的那麼有決心的話上個會期或這個會期一開始支出就可以提出來了也不用拖那麼久對在這樣的一個前提之下今天這剛提出來的這個動議說在召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12560.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12560.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12576.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12589.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
謝謝召委如果是有心要讓這部法律通過的話就不會講這麼多政治口水啦我剛提到的幾個問題還是沒有辦法解除我的疑慮啦所以呢你像比如說我剛提到的範圍的問題然後提到明代的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12592.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12594.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
案件,其他不解決的話,我一定每一條都必須要去做一個保留。但是我倒提出一個建議,今天討論到這裡的話,各個政黨都無所遁形,拖延也幾乎沒有拖延的那種藉口了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12610.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12612.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
公益揭弊者保護法草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12634.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12635.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12662.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12664.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案 案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12683.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12685.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12704.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12705.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12730.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12747.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我認為主席是想要逐條但是既然有一個提案就是大家先處理就看有過沒過也不一定會過因為民進黨團立場是召開因為今天才看到的新的修正動議那在則其召開公聽會再繼續在續行審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12749.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12752.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12773.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12790.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我們都是希望把法修好而不是把法搞爛那如果為了求周延多討論民主就是這樣嘛共識就是在不斷的討論之下匯聚的嘛那動不動就委員說你今天不審就是拖延我覺得這種說法我真的覺得不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12791.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12807.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
然後呢我也覺得國民黨的委員應該也都有雄心壯志你們不會說永遠是在野嘛對不對大家我們要訂定一個不論誰執政都能夠穩定職場文化的一個好的制度不管是保護吹哨者 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12808.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12834.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
或者是對於惡意的吹哨者擁有一個克法克責的機制。」所以剛剛溫委員講到說你們民進黨不審就是要包庇你們執政下的弊案我覺得這種講法真的是不對因為這個制度不是只針對民進黨執政的政府未來不管誰執政都要面對這個體制的建立是好是壞所以我只是覺得大家在這個發言上應當都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12835.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12854.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
彼此尊重。」那我再次建議這個一個提案反正就循程去處理一下嘛啊如果沒有過就就就您要主條就就當然尊重只是說既然有提案一程序就是該處理好不好謝謝主席好那個就這個提案的部分還有接下來黃委員要表示意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12857.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12882.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
謝謝主席其實今天一開始的時候我覺得討論的氣氛當然大家立場都不太一樣但也不至於有什麼劍拔弩張但是我必須要非常持平的講吹哨者保護法制在我國推動的過程當中它不是一個新的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12883.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12908.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
是2016年的時候蔡英文前總統競選的時候重要的政見也正是因為如此2017年召開了全國司法改革會議那個時候的司改國是會議有分小組有非常多的專家學者在針對這個議題進行討論的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12912.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12932.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
在剖析到底是在保護吹哨者還是有所謂的廖伯亞有惡意檢舉的這種惡意檢舉的到底要怎麼處理相關的議題有非常多的討論相關的文獻也非常非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12936.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12954.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以我只是要帶大家回顧一下揭造者保護法的法制在討論的過程當中不斷的在整個台灣社會裡面大家反覆的辯證行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12956.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12984.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
有沒有預告過法案有啊行政院也有預告過法案當初2019年的時候進到委員會審的就是我們行政院經過完整的立法成完整的法案程序法務部提出來提到行政院法務部公告法務部那時候也有預告啊所有的法案作業程序都一樣啦法務部提出來預告到行政院行政院提出了法案送到立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12985.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13008.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那那個時候我們所在審查的就是行政院的版本嘛那那個也是我們司改國是會議的結論啊也是我們在聯合反貪腐公約下面所負的國家義務啊這些事情其實一路走來在歷史上每一個足跡啊留的都非常非常清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13009.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13034.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我剛提到說我們的反貪腐公約國家報告在進行審查的時候我們花了那麼多錢找國際的學者來給我們的反貪腐公約國家報告進行指教我相信國際的學者對我們沒有辦法完成吹哨者保護法的立法所表達的強烈意見強烈意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13039.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13067.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
法務部的官員我相信部長前聯政署的署長所有在法務部內很辛苦持續推動這個法案的同仁大家都聽到現在也白紙黑字的在我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國際審查報告裡面都已經呈現出來了新聞媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13068.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13090.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
也都披露過了那今天我們在討論總共有七個版本這七個版本也不是今天提出來或是上個禮拜提出來其實上個會期就提出來上個會期中線委員針對這件事情我也很感謝他召開了巡達我們也召開了公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13098.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13118.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
公聽會有很多企業界的代表或者企業界的代表他們所聘請的訴訟代理人的代表他們的聲音我們大家都聽到了那也正是因為這個樣子我們才會走到今天好不容易能夠開始來進行所謂的豬條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13126.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13154.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那剛剛莊惠雄委員特別提到就是說因為剛剛莊委員您的發言你說其實大家的想法是什麼其實今天都現行出來了我其實有時候聽莊委員講話我就覺得非常有道理所以剛剛您在講的時候我一直點頭稱是因為其實大家在這個法案上面各自在想的想法考慮的因素是什麼沒有正面負面 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13155.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13166.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
大家的考慮是什麼?比如陳俊宇委員提到你很關心中小企業我可以理解我不會因為說你關心中小企業就可以冠上你說你要一個保護財團這樣的大帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13169.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13197.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
沒有我今天一開始在進行整個發言討論的時候我都說了就是大家有不同的立場看法都OK但我覺得這個不能再繼續拖延下去不能再繼續延宕下去七年的時間真的夠久了那也是因為這樣子我從今天早上一開始就講有想法的委員那就請你把你的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13199.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13213.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
保護法草案 提出來。要不然我根本沒有討論的課題跟標的啊。現在在檯面上面在吳宗憲召委提出他的修正動議以前7個版本的標的全部都是公司部門合併的吹哨者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13214.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13243.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我剛提到莊委員提到第三條的部分我簡單的說明一下就好了我要跟莊委員說的是第三條的部分現在目前絕大多數的版本所採取的立法體力跟2019年行政院的版本已經不一樣了因為2019年行政院的版本他是用副表列舉的方式他用副表列舉的方式有一個嚴重的缺點就是會掛一漏萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13244.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13266.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
就是會掛一落萬所以那個時候在2019年委員會我們進行非常漫長的討論的時候法務部的代表是次長陳明堂他那個時候就代表法務部行政院的版本說沒有錯我們當初對於用副表列舉的方式會掛一落萬我們的考慮是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13268.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13290.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
所以即使是法務部當初的代表那時候陳明堂次長然後我們現在已經高升為部長的鄭明謙那時候是署長人都在現場我們那個時候大家討論的共識是什麼就是採取所謂的大塊原則嘛所謂大塊原則就是針對一些特定類型的犯罪來予以列舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13294.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13294.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13305.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13333.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
第三條的部分。至於莊委員對於說你覺得後面有個概括條款覺得在授權給法務部去訂這些東西你有疑慮那我覺得很好等他討論到第三條的時候你主張要把那個授權給法務部的把它刪除我覺得這也是一個很好的意見那只不過說我跟莊委員稍微說明一下為什麼會最後有一個那個授權的條款那個是當年 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13334.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13351.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那個是當年法務部的代表在司法法制委員會審查的時候不斷地強調希望說我們的立法者能夠保留這樣子一個條款讓他們的法務部未來可以用公告的方式把它補充進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13351.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13379.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
等於是說專委委員今天的疑慮是當年法務部的要求那那個時候我們大家也都崇善如流怕那個時候即使是用大塊原則可能還是有該處理沒有處理到的地方我們也都很尊重法務部的意見把那樣子的一個授權的條款給留下來但沒有關係如果今天討論多數委員的意見是給法務部這樣子的授權實在是不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13380.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13382.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13405.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13423.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
請問還有人要有意見對動議的部分那剛剛應該大家都有拿到這個影印板那請問一下就那個未完備程序我們請議事人員先宣讀動議的內容然後宣讀完畢之後就處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13425.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13451.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
針對公益揭弊者保護法草案在本委員會之審查應有大幅度修正意見有必要就其內容召開公聽會原請委員會決議如下本案延期討論令則其召開公聽會再續行審查提議人委員中嘉賓審發會陳俊宇張瑞雄吳思瑤宣讀完畢主席那個公聽會最後要少一個會字漏字了花錢補上去加一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13453.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13478.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那請問一下各位委員對於中委員所提的動議請問在場委員有異議有異議那有異議的話那我們就進行表決用舉手表決的方式那表決前請先清點在場人數10人好那現在請贊成中委員所提的動議者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13483.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13483.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13498.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13519.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
案。總共出席委員是10位。贊成5位,反對5位。贊成反對者同訴。依照規定,可否同訴時,取決於主席。主席現在...你不同意開公聽會?不是不同意,不要亂講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13526.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13548.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13552.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13580.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那我們現在就先進行到主條那一樣剛剛會議的宣告已經有提到那個休息時間那我們現在先進到主條那請問一下就法案名稱的部分法案名稱的部分請問各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13587.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13597.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
合意見喔這樣好了那還是說你們是希望說親愛的先休息嗎好黃委員怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13598.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13624.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們最喜歡把法案名稱先處理完現在只有兩種名稱嘛一個叫揭弊者保護法一個叫做公益揭弊者保護法我們就幾分鐘吧對 大家把法案名稱先處理完吧OK 我覺得這樣更好還是大家有提議邱彥東有第三種法律名稱嗎沒有沒有好 那這樣齁 請問有意見就是就名稱 法規名稱而已大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13630.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13658.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
就是揭弊者保護法嗎?是不是?我建議啦我個人先說明一下一般通常是說揭弊者保護法但為了要去彰顯他是為了公益的目的做的所以後來大部分的版本都用公益揭弊者保護法那個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13660.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13682.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
不只啦連林月琴委員連林月琴委員等17人提案民進黨委員自己的提案都是公益揭弊者保護法嘛當初我們當年在提的時候加公益那個部分法務部也是競表贊成的嘛是不是先請那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13683.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13703.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們尊重一下部長的意見法務部認為揭弊者保護法好還是公益揭弊者保護法好聽聽部長的意見嘛政府長就這部分有什麼意見我們是尊重委員的一個決定那這部分我們沒有但是因為我們都是寫揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13707.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13708.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
保護法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13729.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13740.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
講清楚一點大家沒有那麼模糊不清如果說加公益因為本席也簽了我們朝委的修正動議所以朝委的修正動議是公益揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13741.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13768.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我也覺得是可以因為最主要是在第一條我們就是維護公眾利益公共利益所以如果是以公共利益簡稱公益公益揭弊者保護法但是這個公益指的是維護公共利益本席是可以同意的但我覺得說行政部門不能這樣子模擬兩可吧如果說行政部門要這樣模擬兩可那這樣我們真的每一條都沒完沒了囉以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13770.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13795.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
黃委員你剛有舉手嗎?那既然就尊重委員會決定我提議啦就公益揭弊者保護法那看其他委員有沒有其他的告見那請問那個各位委員有沒有不同的想法就是我們名稱用公益揭弊者保護法再想想保留再想想名稱要保留再想想 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13797.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13820.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
因為我也是要看政院最後的版本是怎樣所以保留好嗎?法規的法條名稱的部分就先保留那這樣我們就先休息讓大家休息一下然後我們一點的時候繼續就休息不夠嗎?所以你們要12點50分嗎?的意思嗎?一點啦趕快審啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13828.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13828.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13870.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13894.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
很慎重就不會想說要因為我們剛有宣告說到1點啦那是我們就到1點就回來麻煩你們有事情我們也不是說強迫你一定要來阿這樣你每次都會去翻轉別人的講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
16204.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
16205.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
現在開始開會繼續進行逐條討論第一條請問各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
16216.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
16244.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那個各個版本我大概看了一下第一條有幾個版本大家共識其實是蠻高的所以我是不是建議就按照最有共識的版本通過這樣子最有共識的版本是哪一個最有共識的版本是哪一個那個沒有關係竟然有委員提出垂詢了那就請委員翻開我們的條文對照表 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
16251.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
16276.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
目前我今天早上發言的時候我說過了大概包括民主進步黨林月琴委員等17人的提案跟廖偉翔等18人的提案基本上文字的內容是完全都一樣的完全都一樣那這個條文文字會完全都一樣也不是出於巧合因為我們上一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
16278.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
16304.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
在第9屆的時候在我們的法務部的次長陳明堂以及當初當廉政署的署長鄭明謙充分參與討論的時候過了條文大概就是這個樣子那所以我建議我們第一條的條文是不是就按照林月琴委員等17人提案跟廖偉翔等人等18人提案的文字通過以上因為你的修正都已經保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
16304.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
16307.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
案 請問各位委員有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
16316.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
16339.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
第二條我說明一下我們還是希望說在裡面設揭弊者保護委員會因為揭弊者保護委員會裡面就裡面相關的委員有專業素養的人那也都是由主管機關來聘的嘛他會執行揭弊者保護委員會我們在後面的條文所承擔的各項的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
16340.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
16361.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那我覺得在這個法上錄的時候不是只有單純的不是只有單純的說針對揭弊者他身份上面的保護然後不可以有不當的處置行為包括揭弊者相關政策的倡議他的保護的事項政策的執行那由這個在法務部下面所設的專業委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
16363.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
16377.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
來加以推動。」這個是臺灣民眾黨第二條之所以設揭弊者保護委員會我們認為一個最重要的功能跟各位委員說明也請各位委員可以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
16382.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
16408.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
第二條其實多數委員就是直接設由法務部那有爭議的話有主管機關我們比較傾向多數委員的意見多數版本的意見所以本條大家有意見嗎那是不是先保留好不好第二條的部分我們也予以保留那接下來審查第三條請問各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
16413.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
16436.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
第三條的部分因為其實大部分的委員所提案的大概都是按照上一次在委員會處理法務部所提出來的所謂大塊的原則所以大概都是以刑法特定的罪章或貪污自罪條例來當作一個處罰上面的標的那我是不是建議就按照台灣民眾黨黨團的提案通過那請問中高委 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
16441.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
16463.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
其實我們看到這個條文其實明列出各種法條很重要所以以這個召委的版本第三條你列出了其實民眾黨版本是列出了13款那您的條文當中列了雖然是列了8項但是你其中的第7項又列了 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
16464.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
16485.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
實務 實務 實務 實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
16491.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
16491.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
16510.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
16533.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
藉由《揭弊者保護法》來做一些內部防腐的動作但是有關於法官倫理規範的部分它是一個比較空泛的包括道德性的跟植物以外行為的一些法官的品性在外言行的形象的一些維持那這部分跟公務可能跟公務跟公益上並沒有直接的必然關係因為我們版本是提違反法官法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
16540.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
16563.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那個不是倫理啊所以你現在在講的是哪一個版本啊法官法第30條的部分是違反法官倫理規範情節重大者這是部分委員的條文另外有各案評鑑的部分是啊所以他針對的法律效果是附著在法官法上面要一復各案評鑑啊比如說我講最具體的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
16565.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
16588.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
現在接受關說我們關說司法現在沒有罪啊我之前問法務部問了半天現在關說司法沒有罪啊那你最後能夠處理的連結唯一有法的效果的就是透過法官法送個案評鑑最強最強最強也不過是如此啊那如果今天有人發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
16590.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
16615.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
立法委員有人跑去關說司法進行吹哨的動作然後他不受保護欸這個實際的例子一發生啊今天坐在這邊你講這個話要負責欸那或者是有人發現說有某個地院的法官竟然超越了那個分際強要求年輕的女法官陪他去山上夜遊 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
16618.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
16622.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
結果他揭發了這種錯不可聞的事然後沒有受到這個保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
16625.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
16649.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
司法院的代表你覺得這樣對嗎這部分我跟委員說明一下我們並不是反對所有的個案評鑑的所有的款項都不列入弊案的範圍之內因為個案評鑑部分包括他其中我們現在個案評鑑部分有包括一般的指揮行為跟例如說辦案遲言或辦案違背程序這個部分他也會列入個案評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
16650.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
16652.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
16666.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
16688.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所謂的個人的品性或在外的形象或者是辦案期間的愉悅這些是不是適合把他當成一個弊案來處理正是說他進行個案評決的時候他就是一個當然一個弊案那這部分我們可以建議請委員再思考一下是不是要做適當的限縮或是更具體的就像委員這邊講的他有關說這部分我們當然這個由內部來揭弊我們非常的贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
16693.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
16708.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
不好意思我再插一下話他所連結的就是在法官法要移送個案評鑑的事由我必須要老實講把法官移送個案評鑑這件事情之本身會構成要移個案評鑑已經夠嚴重的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
16711.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
16738.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
已經夠嚴重了啦那你如果認為說法官被疑個案評鑑你認為還不夠嚴重還要再限縮那就請司法院的代表具體的講你們現在針對有關於違反法官法30條第二項或89條第4項之應付個案評鑑行為你們認為還要做如何的限縮請司法院的代表具體的提出文字的修正意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
16739.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
16765.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那我跟委員報告一下我們目前有曾經統計過目前的個案評鑑主要都是案件遲延違反辦案程序跟開庭態度不佳至於說其他的說包括性騷擾或者是剛剛委員所提到相關案例這個部分畢竟是少數所以人把這個很具體化這些個案的很不當非常不當我們也不認同的行為當成個弊案來處理內部的揭弊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
16766.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
16789.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
來做一些揭發的動作我們非常的贊同只是說要相當的具體要把一個層次上要有點區別一下所以嘛我說奇怪我剛剛不是講中文應該理解沒那麼困難嗎法官法30條第二項應付個案評鑑事由你們如果覺得範圍太廣那具體你覺得要如何限縮那挺齊出你的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
16790.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
16806.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們基本上從委員版本裡面像徐小新委員的版本或是洪孟楷委員的版本這個部分就是說他也認為說造成司法公正造成具體危害的行為這個部分我們覺得這個版本可以概括的來適用以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
16808.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
16830.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
就這個部分我贊成司法院所提出來的意見就按照洪孟楷委員的那個版本按照那個版本針對有關於法官法他要一復個案平線的自由再進一步的語現說這個我尊重我尊重司法因為你們這樣子來參加法案的討論有具體的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
16833.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
16858.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
這個才是一個負責任的看法比如說這麼多的版本裡面你覺得有一個法官法30條第二項你覺得太broad希望先說用洪孟楷委員的版本就這樣具體的講這樣我們才有助於整個法案的聚焦要不然我們審法案的時候不要讓大家覺得我們好像在傾談這樣子不好謝謝就第三條部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
16860.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
16887.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
主席因為本席很關注您的修正動議的第四條但是我這邊要提出那既然有修正動議在場其實這個第四條跟第三條會有連動因為主席報告在討論您的版本可以就是麻煩主席您稍微留意一下因為您待會我們可能會進入到第四條的時候會處理到您把這個揭弊者限縮在國營事業的人員跟政府部門人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
16888.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
16906.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
案 但是呢因為會這樣限縮主要是考量到我們揭弊的目的是針對政府部門或涉及公共利益極大的國營事業但是你前面的這些行為的法條我舉例來講以你的版本的第三條的第七項 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
16908.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
16915.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
16931.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
16933.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
案 等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
16945.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
16945.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
16967.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
16990.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
內容是他們國營事業宿舍隔壁鄰居在倒灰污水這個就跟我們原來在第四條限縮他這些人員的範圍就有所不同所以我是覺得呢第三條可能要並同第四條一併考量所以我是覺得再評估一下再評估一下第三條好那個剛那個什麼工程會那有意見是不是好你說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
16996.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
17019.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
主席各位委員還有與會先進公共工程委員會代表緊究這個第三條的這個部分提供工程會的一些看法因為這些條文委員的版本裡面都有提到政府採購法那工程會認為這個揭弊者保護法主要是為反貪腐的一個重要的機制那我們會建議這個揭弊者的這個弊端的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
17020.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
17022.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
17049.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
17049.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
17072.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
17073.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
17089.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
17093.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案）一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具《公益揭弊者保護法草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
17116.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
17140.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
法務委員我請教一下那個工程會的代表我完全了解你在說什麼但我要換另外一個角度請你思考一下就是說政府採購法裡面最重要的立法目的是維持政府採購程序的公正連結但目前在政府採購法裡面會沉醉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
17141.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
17154.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
案件中）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
17163.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
17187.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
刊登政府採購公報的行為可能有很多你剛擔心的事情就會排除在外那為什麼我會認為說要有限於比如說刊登政府採刊登政府就是刊登政府公報事實上也就是我們一般所在講停權的行為是因為包括我自己所接到吹哨或檢舉的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
17189.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
17189.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
17208.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
17228.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
結果在發現說那個廠商所提供的防彈背心明明是錄製的中國那邊製造的來坑殺沒保護到我們這邊阿兵哥他們生命上面的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
17230.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
17257.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個很嚴重的事但他不會去犯政府採購法的罪但他絕對會構成什麼他絕對會構成平權的事由那當國防部裡面有人冒著風險願意揭發這件事這個明明就入製的明明就中國製的結果裡面的人他左看右看怎麼大家都在包庇 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
17258.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
17282.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
因為跟廠商之間的往來很熱絡所以大家都裝作沒看見然後他出來揭弊結果國防部發現說啊你這個廖伯啊破壞我們軍中的和諧啊絕對要給你好看因為我實際上面啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
17284.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
17299.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我上一屆立委啊就有一個國防部的弟兄啊他真的這樣被整欸跑來找我投訴啊我後來為了這個事情我跑去國防部好幾次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
17302.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
17318.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這很重要但它不會構成你說講的就違反政府採購法的罪所以如果把它規範限縮在刊登政府採購公報是所謂我們停權的事項的話那這樣工程會認為還會有什麼問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
17322.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
17344.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
可以回應嗎 是感謝委員的這個指正那這邊我也提出看法就是說委員剛剛有提到的這個問題如果說是公務人員有這個貪污土利的話其實會被其他的條文吸收就是我們在目前的這個揭弊法裡面的其他條文會被其他的條文吸收所以我們會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
17345.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
17368.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
案件,如果涉及到公務人員的這些違法的這些部分在其他條文其實已經可以規範到那我們是建議在採購法的部分是做一些限縮以上那個貪污自罪條例的犯罪太陽你要再去看一下我們目前貪污自罪條例的犯罪太陽跟我剛剛所描述的那個狀況在行為太陽上面是沒有辦法構成要件完全合制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
17368.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
17380.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
但我還是要進一步去問我如果只限說在有攤登政府採購公報的行為對你們來講還會有自然難行嗎是這邊我們在進一步的研究感謝委員的指正 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
17382.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
17382.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
案件 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
17401.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
17427.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我簡單說一下因為剛剛有提到我的版本的部分第三條沒有錯在於是我們把它列出來說有可能有什麼樣的情況是需要吹哨者來去做一個揭發的一個部分那過去到現在其實很多人也講不管是疫苗的採購快篩的採購雞蛋的採購有沒有有可能的一個弊案的部分那我們吹哨者保護法不就是應該要針對因為我們現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
17429.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
17454.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
在剛剛主席的修正動議裡面有提到是說就是公部門跟國營事業那其實公部門有很大的一個狀況就是在於是政府採購法你要發包你要做相關的一些採購的部分那這一些資訊很多時候即便是我們是立法委員我們來跟新政部門所知也沒有辦法完全了解說它真實的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
17455.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
17476.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
工程會你雖然說是政府採購的商會機關但是你們也沒有辦法去了解說各部會的採購一個狀況所以我們才會希望是說在這個裡面放進來是針對這樣的一個太陽有可能會變成是說可以讓吹哨者保護法的一個範圍裡面所以既然如此的話我不知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
17478.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
17504.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
工程會這樣表示意見是要把它全部拿掉嗎還是你有什麼樣的一個條文的一個修正或是文字的一個比較精簡是不是也要給我們建議否則就如同我們剛剛一開始大體討論為什麼討論30小時一樣嗎因為你沒有版本所以你現在針對我們的條文的部分那你覺得有意見你覺得有自在難行的地方可是你又說不出哪裡有可以怎麼樣調整那這樣子我們沒有辦法有進展啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
17505.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
17524.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
所以我是不是也拜託昭偉是不是能夠裁示如果說我們各部會我也很尊重因為就法論法我們要定一個法令是可以實用的那是不是各部會如果說有相關的意見的時候你條要怎麼修但是要保留立法精神我們的立法精神就是我們希望防範於未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
17525.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
17552.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
公部門如果未來有政府採購的時候我相信百分之九十的公務人員百分之九十五的公務人員都是依法行政但是少數的害群之馬危害國家利益危害公眾利益的時候就要有吹哨者出來來去做揭弊以上謝謝好謝謝那還就是說那這樣那他們這樣就是說提出說希望保留好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
17554.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
17554.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
17568.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
17585.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
案件,為什麽呢?因為這個版本跟其他七個版本的最大差別他是純粹是政府公部門,頂多加上國營事業其他的都是公私併進那公私併進的架構要把它改成修正動議的這一個以公部門為主的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
17586.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
17600.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
就不是修正動議那幾個條文的問題而已我們來看一下第三條現在如果公司併進第三條講的是什麼叫閉案第四條講的什麼叫做受理機關第五條什麼叫做揭弊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
17601.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
17623.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
案．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
17629.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
17653.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
案件,但若是在公司併進的時候,那麼我舉例來講,如果他是做什麼?以打著動產租賃業,當然我不要說是典當業,就是很多動產租賃啦,借錢的啦,他們事實上就是一個犯罪集團。那這個時候他因為假用這個動產租賃的方式,或者典當的方式,他從事犯罪行為,那如果是裡面的小弟要揭弊, |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
17654.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
17671.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
17679.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
17703.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
案。當然我們有國營事業,金融控股有沒有國營事業想想看,就是有但是呢多數的是民間的金控公司那這樣的一個規範的犯罪主體呢如果把公司並進納進來你這個金控公司內部有人要揭弊那你是以金控的範圍的犯罪行為內部來揭弊三條四條五條就扣在一起了但是你把私部門拿走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
17704.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
17732.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
那糟糕了那我們現在就是要辦誰?所以我的意思是說我當然沒有反對我們的林委員就是說我們如果說真的要公私併進改成以公為主的話那就不是看到現在的修正動議的版本修第四條第五條反過來連第三條的這些所說的弊案的這些紫色的範圍可能都要做一個審視我剛剛只是說在這麼短的時間內 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
17733.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
17736.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
法條前後銜接的問題,所以我們才會說要招一個公聽會,也讓相關的部門來提出他們的意見,就是這樣而已。那如果說林委員說保留我們也同意啊。好,那就請黃委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
17753.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
17778.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
其實我剛剛對於那個鍾嘉賓委員的發言非常的佩服因為鍾委員剛剛整個論述的過程所舉的例子就充分的凸顯出來為什麼我到現在我還是認為公司部門都要納入規範我對召委沒不敬的意思啦召委的苦心我都肯定但肯定歸肯定彼此有不同的立場大家相互尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
17779.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
17806.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
所以在我的心裡可能跟中委員不一樣中委員認為是以昭緯的版本為主要你所關心的對象但我現在在看的恐怕就不是只有昭緯的版本我現在在看的整個腦袋的架構還是跟當初我們在2019年司法法制委員會一樣是在這個會議室從早上一路搞到下午出委員會那天我是全程在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
17807.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
17835.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
全身在場每一個條文我全部都有參與我的想法跟當年還是一模一樣所以剛中國委員所講的那個例子就就很棒啊監控如果是關鼓過半吹哨者受保護那如果是那種私人的監控特別有不肖的事情那甚至都已經被判刑判到八年九年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
17837.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
17861.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
代表人家當初吹哨者吹哨是真的吧對啊都已經被判8年9年啊現在只剩下最高法院駁回上訴就確定啊那你我們到時候要面對很多人啊其他監控的人跑來問立法委員啊說那你們現在是大小眼喔政府控制的監控吹哨者受保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
17863.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
17890.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
非政府控制的監控追掃者不受保護請大委員們幫我說明一下差別對待的理由到底在哪裡每一個委員他在劃主體範圍跟客體範圍的時候一定都會面臨到這樣的問題我再強調一次針對這個法律我有我的信念 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
17892.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
17921.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
也有希望貫徹的價值但我不會說那個信念跟價值是絕對唯一至高無上別人的考慮都不會我不會這樣講但我在這個立法的過程當中我會把它說清楚那最後我還是會按照我們國會裡面民主審議的原則按照多數的意見有一個最後的共識所以我還是建議就是說在主體客體的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
17922.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
17948.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我們還是就是個別來處理就是個別來加以處理因為違反特定法律的客觀範圍的部分違反的主體他可能有三種人一個是什麼一個是政府一個是國營事業一個是非國營事業的私部門剛剛所講的客體範圍的那些法律我認真的講事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
17950.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
17952.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
17969.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
17990.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
案件,如果是公部門的受保護,如果是私部門的不受保護,到時候我們有很多解釋要做。所以就這個部分我想第三條的部分剛剛中委員有表達他的看法我也尊重,那既然這樣我們第三條是不是就先保留。 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
17992.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
18019.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那第三條我們就保留那謝謝黃委員因為我的立場也是這樣啦就我只是希望很務實的面對現在社會的需要因為我們有時候定法律喔定一個太高標的理想就用到社會反而是很卡因為我實務我是我等於是適用法律出身的嘛那我不是立法者出身我會覺得一個法律的真正有它的價值是在這個社會能夠順利使用所以我後來才會做一些修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
18021.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
18025.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
18046.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
18048.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我只是說以我的立場跟過去的生活經驗我覺得需要有一點修正其實你們也不完全反對我的修正啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
18067.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
18088.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我們還希望說能夠順利第三條予以保留我們現在審第四條請問一下對第四條的部分各位委員有無意見這是很明顯就兩種軌道一個是公司併進一個是公部門為主所以這個第四條就明顯的落落剛剛黃總召所說的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
18093.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
18110.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
因為我齁這樣講好了啦齁其實也沒那麼複雜啦真正會涉及到的也只有第四條第一項的第一款啦第四條第一項的第二款檢察機關司法機關目的事業主管機關監察院政風機構全部都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
18112.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
18128.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
公部門受檢舉的機構,但只是說公部門受檢舉的機構這一件事情公部門受檢舉機構這件事情他沒有限定檢舉人是誰他沒有限定檢舉人是誰這個觀念上面要把它釐清是非常重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
18129.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
18148.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那唯一擔心的事情是什麼?唯一擔心的事情就是第四條第一項的第一款嘛說那如果是包括私部門的公益揭弊的話我們要不要讓那個僱主有機會讓他成為受理的機關就我先給僱主第一線的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
18149.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
18176.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我先給僱主第一線的機會大家冷靜想一想喔對僱主不是壞事欸因為這個層級化規範的方式第一層第二層當初在設計的時候我們就有已經預想到說不要讓人家去亂爆料亂搞你要先按照一定的程序按照一定的程序走完了以後沒有獲得妥適的處理你才能跑到第二線 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
18178.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
18198.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
你才能跑到第二線所以如果企業主冷靜想一想如果企業主冷靜想一想是說把私閉門拉進來好像給他負擔但你要從另外一個角度去思考是我給你機會所謂給你機會是說欸我要求這個人喔你要先跟你老闆講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
18199.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
18204.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
判斷判斷判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
18218.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
18230.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
有的時候跟他們一些正確的觀念的宣導我給你這個機會你要不要啊你如果真的不要到時候大家的決議是司部門要把它劃出來的話那我老實跟大家講 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
18231.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
18247.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
你覺得回到今天的狀態今天的狀態是什麼今天的狀態是沒有揭弊者保護法今天的狀態沒有揭弊者保護法我今天早上在大體討論的時候我為了讓其他的委員暢所欲言我盡量都不講話我靜靜的聆聽各位委員的告見 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
18248.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
18274.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
但是大家冷靜想一想今天沒有揭弊者保護法所謂啦在公司經營權爭奪的情況下面互相搞來搞去各聘公關公司公關公司在往外延找立法委員來助政然後找媒體來助政這種事情還會少嗎看非常的多人沒有揭弊者保護法的今天right now此時此刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
18275.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
18292.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
早上在講的那個現象現在早就活生生的在台灣社會所上演那所以那不過其他委員認為這個部分有不一樣的看法我都尊重沒有說今天一定要強行過誰的版本所以第四條的部分是不是就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
18294.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
18320.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
謝謝國常委員也先跟國安委員報告一下就是說雖然我們想法是立場不一樣但是你也了解我為什麼會這個思考的邏輯對 因為我也是有我的邏輯存在所以我的橫頻的做法就是我做一個附帶決議我希望實行了三年一到就評估用到私部門並不是說我認為私部門的揭弊是不重要好 這個再跟各位報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
18321.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
18328.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
案。第四條的部分我們就予以保留我們現在就是進行審查第五條請問各位委員有意見要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
18332.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
18353.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
第五條的部分其實一開始主席的修正動議我們就趕快的去研究這個本來公部門之外再擴及到國營事業跟以先工後師就是以工為主但是我們再加上一個國營事業這樣的一個折衷比公司併進當然緩和了一些衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
18354.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
18376.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
那我要講到就是說揭弊者當然如果能夠有達到剛剛幾位委員說的好處當然是一體適用全面就實施啊就是因為考慮到在私部門有很多很大的個別差異比如剛剛講到金控公司欸可能大家覺得哇金控公司呢不分公營是民營啊都應該納入來重大弊案的管制對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
18377.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
18381.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
18405.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
18411.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
18429.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
18434.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
案件,或許在我們社區周邊那些用實際上在經營地下錢莊這些用動產租賃動不動就來騙年輕人的血汗錢的這些可惡的可能是組織犯罪集團我們當然希望都納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
18444.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
18445.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
18465.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
18479.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
刑政法人財專法人有些政府設立的他的涉及公共力的部分甚至是超過國營事業或者有些以專門承接比如說我們所謂的全民健保為主的醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
18481.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
18486.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
18507.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
18534.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
負掛上國營事業,那這樣的範圍跟我剛剛講到那幾個部門哪一個孰輕孰重就有所排比所以才會不斷的提出說這些部門是不是應該納入我們去更廣泛的去聽聽社會大眾的意見所以我還是覺得第五條的部分如果是以政府部門以這個召委的修正版本政府部門為主外擴到國營事業是否有其他商榷的餘地我是持比較保留的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
18541.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
18545.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
其實一個是課題範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
18547.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
18573.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
一個是主體範圍一個放在第三條一個第四條規範的範圍在那邊做了限定了以後主體跟客體兩個都要落入那個範圍才會有所適用這個觀念上先建立清楚建立了這個觀念以後為什麼台灣民眾黨黨團的提案第五條會寫成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
18575.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
18601.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
就是沒有必要再重複繁複的去做所謂揭弊者再重新按照公司部門再重新寫一次沒有意義沒有意義請容我再說明一次主體範圍、客體範圍是前面第三條跟第四條兩個不同的法條他們各自有承載規範的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
18603.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
18625.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
跟能量,在那邊就處理了。所以為什麼我第五條會直接把它寫成說是有事實合理相信存在第三條所定的弊案。第一個先排除掉大家早上所關心的胡亂爆料根本沒有事實的根據大家欽猜亂共 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
18628.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
18655.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
但第二個我們也要做成平衡是說那你也不能給揭弊者的義務強到說你最後揭弊的內容一定要有罪判決確定你才算揭弊者這個標準太高了啦連我們檢察官起訴恐怕都沒有百分之百嘛那警察在偵辦移送給檢察機關起訴那移送案件的起訴率也沒有百分之百嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
18657.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
18683.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以我們為什麼把所謂者揭弊者只有事實合理相信第三條所定的弊案第二個是重點是具名具名你要受這個法的保護喔那你就要具名當有這兩個要件存在的時候會排除掉很多今天早上大家所擔心的亂講不負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
18687.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
18713.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
因為這個人進入吹哨者保護法請大家不要有一個迷思啊就好像吹哨者保護法那種胡亂爆料的不負責任的因為有這個法好像穿了金鐘罩鐵布衫亂搞的事情牽涉到不管是民事的損害賠償責任還是刑事的處罰通通都免於任何法律責任就不是這個樣子嘛這個法律在設計的概念就不是這個樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
18715.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
18715.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
18733.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
18745.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
真的會笑出來因為目前七個黨團的版本包括台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的版本我們在最後的法律效果其實是很minor的 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
18747.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
18774.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
很輕微你跟國外的法律比較非常輕微我也講個最簡單的例子我們的金管會店到晚在那邊吹噓說我們那個做得非常好有檢舉獎金送了多少出去你把台灣的data實際的狀況跟美國SEC人家怎麼在保護吹哨者那個檢舉獎金有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
18776.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
18804.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
違反對吹哨者保護對他做不利處置的那個處罰有多重你真的拿美國法來跟現在的台灣法做對比你你會相信是我們一開始在立這個法的時候是跨出很謹慎的一步後面的法律效果那個時候我們在定的時候定到都有點不好意思這樣子真的有辦法保護嗎但沒有辦法我們也理解剛開始台灣社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
18805.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
18805.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
18820.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
18838.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
所以我們在後面的法律效果上面相對而言才會弄得比較緩和因此就有關於第五條的部分我先跟大家說明一下我們為什麼第一項沒有再重複的重複的針對公司部門的揭弊者另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
18839.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
18868.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
在作身份上面的區別因為在法條的規範上面我思考完了以後發現當你有第三條第四條主觀要件客觀要件交錯的限制了以後到第五條法文上就法條的文字上重複的再寫一次毫無意義毫無意義你應該是針對抓準所謂揭弊者他要滿足要件的核心要件第一個是包括他有事實合理的相信第二個他要具名 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
18870.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
18896.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
事由說適用範圍的部分就回到第三條跟第四條這個是我們在針對第五條設計的時候至於說跟揭弊者有密切關係是因為我們針對除了一定的人有一定關係的人在往外擴縮他親屬範圍的擅見在我國不同的法律當中老實講有不一樣的規範政人保護法有一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
18897.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
18915.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
其他有特定吹哨者保護規定的散件的個別的特定的法令他們針對有一定關係的人其實跟那個政人保護法他彼此之間的主觀範圍有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
18917.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
18941.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
不一樣的落差但是我覺得回來我們如果說就基本上就還是先以正人保護法因為正人保護法相對而言可能是相對於其他散見在不同的法規當中所謂有密切關係的人在那個主體範圍的限制上也就是說他的配偶直系血親三親等內旁系血親兩親等內姻親家長家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
18943.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
18972.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
對有婚約關係的人跟正能保護法在第二項的部分跟正能保護法做相同規範我會覺得是一個比較適當的部分好 莊委員謝謝主席主席提的這個修正案我想我再一次第四次提出來了我們19年的一個法案裡面你這個第五條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
18973.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
18973.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
案。第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
18976.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
19005.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
那個部分本來在19年的時候我們在第二項是說前項第一款所稱揭弊的公務員是指政務官及各級民意代表以外適用國家賠償法之公務人員當初我們的19年的版本是這樣那當然所稱政府機關包括中央跟地方政府機關行政法人、公立學校、公立醫療院所、公營事業跟公務建築制裁論法人那今天你提出來這個版本裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
19006.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
19007.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
19036.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
19063.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那你去再把它看第二項你又講說前項第一款所稱公務員指政務官及各級民意代表以外這個我就兩款齁我看起來就有一點衝突的地方啊這個是不是因為是昭緯的一個修正案那你剛好這一段裡面啊在立法裡面立法理由裡面沒有去提到是不是可以來就叫我們吳昭緯你的高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
19066.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
19088.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
這部分如果說希望我就那個修正理由那邊是希望我再把它補充一下是不是不是兩個矛盾我認為啦我個人的潛見是認為第一項的第一款裡面啊你講國營事業揭弊者裡面是只接受國營事業的一個派任嘛你像比如說你今天是次長你當某一個國營事業的董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
19089.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
19096.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
有可能也是被派去當董事長啊可是你在第二項裡面你又去講說這個政務官跟各級民意代表是除外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
19100.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
19124.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
案 兩人會打架為什麼會打架你不覺得這樣會打架嗎我覺得不會啊一個是接受派任一個是原來的職務啊那這個我不知道哪裡不一樣因為我個人啦我個人淺見認為這這沒有什麼問題啦因為一個是派任嘛另外一個是他原本的職務以上那還是周委員有什麼高見也請周委員指教這條我都不太怕電欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
19129.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
19132.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
19157.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
19157.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
案。第6條是在處理程序的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
19184.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
19207.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
也就是我剛剛所講的揭弊者你必須什麼第一個像受理揭弊機關揭弊沒有經在20天內沒有經過處理就是說我先科你一個義務你要先向第一層的機關去做處理人家不處理你才可以到什麼才可以到下面像 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
19209.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
19234.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
哪一些其他不是受理揭弊的機關比如像我們中央或地方民意代表第二個具公司登記的媒體業者第三個具法人登記的民間公益團體大家會發現今天不管我們在線的是公部門還是私部門對於通報的程序要先走第一層 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
19236.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
19236.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
19267.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
19267.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
案（三）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
19290.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
19318.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我剛提到那個兩個那個意見喔確實是趙委員你真的在思考一下我再思考一下謝謝謝謝總委員那我們第五條已經保留了那我們現在在討論第六條對第六條那請問第六條大家還有什麼意見要補充其實第六條齁大家有沒有想過其實用意是好的剛剛黃委員說的嘛揭弊者他先有義務先向他體制內我們設定了一個受理揭弊的機關去進行揭弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
19320.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
19342.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
案件,若沒有回應,他當然被迫只能往其他原來非受理機關的這三個,中央或地方民代,媒體,公司登記的還不能夠是公民記者,然後法人登記的民間公益團體,像我們在我們地方上常有那些做慈善的慈善功德會的,那個都不算,因為那個慈善功德會有時候是 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
19344.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
19344.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
19367.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
19380.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
19387.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
19388.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
19413.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
19437.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
也不至於因為大家的愛心還是持續的會找媒體找公益社團還是找民意代表去表達但是揭弊就不同了揭弊不是說我愛心做錯了反正只是額外的給那些不是真的很需要的人但是我們也不會因此呢以後呢我就不做愛心了但是揭弊呢他本身啊揭弊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
19439.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
19460.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
有可能對於為什麼要求揭弊者剛剛的法案當中到有一定的事實根據有一定的公共利害的危害我們才讓他成立但是呢一旦跑到了這三個裡面最大的一個困擾是什麼民意機關民意代表啊尤其中華民代言論免責權啊所以呢有時候閉案 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
19461.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
19487.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
交給了民意機關民意代表來進行舉發的時候反而他的約制的機制就沒有了今天民意代表我們講錯了弊案弄錯了言論免責權當然我相信絕大多數的民意代表愛惜羽毛不會這樣做但是社會上會擔心什麼只有少數的濫用言論免責權的方式他來進行爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
19488.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
19510.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
本來我們要保障的是揭弊者但是卻讓引進了這個機制讓民意代表去受理揭弊的時候忽略了因為他有一個言論免責權的保障在對事情的查證上可能就不是像機關受揭弊機關的那麼的一個調查而且其實老實說 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
19512.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
19529.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
這三個單位都沒有什麼調查權的能力啦民意代表或許好一點但是正因為他有一點點調查能力但是又沒有相對制約他做嚴格要求查證的這個義務所以呢放了這個中央民意機關或民意代表的時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
19529.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
19544.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
或許會讓我們整個保障揭弊者的兩方美意反而讓民眾會擔心說如果我有個死對頭其實就要找我麻煩的那他是揭弊者他跑去跟民意代表講一講結果開記者會就公佈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
19546.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
19571.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
案 到底誰受到保護呢到底會不會有一些其他的利益受到妨礙呢所以我是覺得第六條反而雖然主席的版本當中第六條你沒有修訂那個我們政府部門或者是國營事業並沒有直接的關係我們是另外在受理揭弊機關以外拉出三個對象那我獨獨的是對當中的中央民意代表這個部分我深深的覺得有需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
19572.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
19587.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
有需要再多瞭解徵詢社會大眾的意見我們才這樣做不然的話這一條看起來很合理正當啊很合理正當嘛欸這些社會上的一些可憐的人需要公益幫忙的人不都這三個單位嗎民意代表啊為民喉舌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
19588.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
19604.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
媒體發覺社會的陰暗面需要照顧關懷的還是說公益團體在照顧弱勢者看起來他們都跟揭弊者有同樣的促進社會公益的樣貌但是時任上的運作其實反而因為中央民代這樣的一個環節 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
19606.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
19629.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
案 恐怕會對揭弊的過程的嚴謹的查證失去了一個把關的依據因為他在問責上他缺乏一個問責的一個約制以至於呢揭弊本來是好事可能會變成變成被人家剛剛主席在早上說的被人家胡亂運用打擊特定公司類似這樣的一個工具這個呢可能要三思我是傾向保留黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
19633.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
19656.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我覺得在討論法條的時候這個法條到底在做什麼可能我們要先搞清楚否則說發言的內容會造成社會上面的誤會揭弊者保護法是在保護揭弊者不是在保護中央民意代表中央民意代表要不要言論美哲權或者是把言論美哲權廢止這個都可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
19658.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
19666.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
這個都可以討論絕對不要言論免責權要推動修法這個都OK但是跟這個揭弊者保護法一點關係都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
19668.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
19695.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
一點關係都沒有因為為什麼這樣講到第二層次的部分為什麼範圍去做這樣子的限縮我相信市長還有署長很清楚本來在第二層的時候在第二層的時候早期在倡議的時候有很多人提出像剛剛鍾嘉斌委員所講的那為什麼媒體業者要限具公司登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
19697.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
19724.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
有很多很優秀的公民記者阿也應該要把他納進來阿那或者是說明謙公益團體阿為什麼一定要法人登記也有很多非法人團體阿在社會上面也有很多現實存在的非法人團體阿人家在做公益也是做得有稱有色阿之前在討論揭弊者保護法的時候這些聲音全部都有出來但今天為什麼第六條會長成這個樣子理由很簡單阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
19726.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
19734.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
因為2019年的時候我們的行政院所提出的版本這個就是你們當初行政院提出的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
19736.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
19761.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
大家都被行政院說服說第二層不要開這麼大媒體業者還是要去公司登記比較好民間公益團體還是要去法人登記比較好這都是當初2019年我們的行政院行政院所提出來的版本長的就是這個樣子所以到這一屆國會的時候為什麼看這麼多的版本到第二層的時候可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
19764.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
19783.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
你 要求一個揭弊者說你今天投訴不成投訴不成那我可以再找誰把這件事情講出去其實第六條後面的那三款是為了要讓他得到保護去限縮他第二層可以講的主體範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
19785.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
19810.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
如果說今天委員覺得為了要讓他說他保護限縮他可以講的範圍這個東西定得太窄了我們要再包括寬一點比如說為什麼媒體業者要有公司登記公民記者為什麼不行那也可以啊那就請大家提出修正動議嘛看你覺得要再加哪些東西嘛你要怎麼樣去描述嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
19811.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
19839.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
這個在2019年的時候經過很熱烈的討論大家也都有不太一樣的看法但為什麼在今天2024年在討論的時候有這麼多的版本會寫成這樣就是因為當初行政院基於很多考慮拜託大家說剛開始的時候是不是不要放得那麼寬我們第二層的部分稍微限縮一下所以今天法條才會長成這個樣子做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
19844.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
19851.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
中委可能剛剛表達那因為在吃午餐便當講的可能不夠清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
19853.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
19880.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
這條至關重要的是什麼他是在第一項我們用台灣民眾黨提案第一項的倒數第二行至其向原受理機關揭弊時期受本法之保護所謂的第二層就是說原機關他在受理揭弊者的時候他認為如果查無實據或不夠重大他可能不構成就像憲法法庭在受理事件案的時候他可能認為不構成他就不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
19881.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
19907.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這時候第二層去找這三個機關這三個團體其實他們目的是什麼要讓揭弊者的保護取得一個依據那揭弊者為什麼他在原受理揭弊機關受理機關會審慎的嚴格的去審視是不是到達是重大的弊案違反社會公義那麼有一定事實的依據所以才有決定來受理機關本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
19909.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
19910.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
案 等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
19939.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
19939.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
19957.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
19957.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
19985.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
19986.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
事實基礎所存在本身的動機等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
20005.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
20022.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
他的考量可能因為這我們也必須要老實說很多時候呢這些民意代表的問政可能有很多是要博取聲量的要開直播的有個日文議題就可以拿來講常常發生講了半天發現講錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
20023.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
20040.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
如果說今天這種情況不會發生的話我想大家不會疑慮這種情況常常發生所以我才認為第六條當中所謂的第二層給予了有言論免責權的中央民代可以來提供給揭弊者的一個身份保護的一個依託 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
20041.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
20062.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
這個要審慎因為另外兩個公司的媒體或者是法人登記的公益團體或許本身有足夠的社會問責的一個機制避免它過於腐爛但是中央民大因為受言論免責權的保障可能過去我們一向以來社會的印象就是比較不放心這一條還是再度的說明建議是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
20067.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
20093.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
我還是再講一次啊那法條的道理啊要把它講清楚啦現這三個啊現這三個啊他們揭弊者最後受不受保護跟那三款到底是誰有沒有言論別人的哲學一點關係都沒有為什麼一點關係都沒有因為呢如果受理揭弊機關他不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
20094.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
20119.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
你要轉向什麼?別人去處理的話最後的法條的要件是什麼?最後法條要件要經過起訴、緩起訴、裁定交付、審判、懲戒、懲處、懲罰、彈劾、糾正你必須要滿足最後一項的要件才會受到保護啊你今天第二層你找中央民大也好找媒體也好找公益團體也好你不管找誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
20123.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
20143.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
我們這個法條的規範不是那三種人受不受到保護啊是吹哨者受不受到保護啊吹哨者要受到保護還有最後一項的節制啦跟中央民意代表到底有沒有言論免責權一點關係都沒有啊最後要處理的是什麼最後要處理的是最後那一項啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
20144.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
20164.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
你的吹哨到底有沒有實據嘛你如果沒有實據到第二項的時候吹哨者一樣不會受到保護啊這跟中央民意代表有沒有言論免責權有什麼關係更何況中央民意代表言論免責權也只有在委員會裡面啊我們大部分在講的時候是什麼有魄力的啊都不會只在委員會裡面講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
20166.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
20191.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
就直接在記者會講啊開直播講啊因為那沒有言論免責權的保護啊就是要跳脫言論免責權的保護才會這樣做嘛所以回到這邊就不要去扯中央民意代表言論免責權 irrelevant一點關係都沒有你如果覺得中央民意代表在委員會裡面所講的不應該有言論免責權那就很好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
20192.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
20208.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
就推動把他廢止嘛不要把他跟吹哨者保護法扯在一起嘛因為我講的再直接一點我希望保持和諧啦有時候話我都不要講得太尖銳一點關係也沒有嘛你最後取決還是最後一項嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
20210.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
20224.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那你說好啦那如果要找一些理由把這個條文給保留我也沒什麼其他意見只是我覺得在法條討論的過程當中法條的結構每一個項次他的安排他發揮的規範功能還是要把他講清楚黃委員是啊我說實在聽到那麼久我是很同意剛剛黃國昌委員的講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
20235.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
20250.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
因為大家真的回去看一下行政院在107年推出來的吹哨者保護法的揭弊者保護法的條文裡面的第6條就跟現在我們各委員以及黨團出來的版本是一模一樣幾乎一模一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
20251.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
20271.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
尤其這三個中央民意中央跟地方民意代表據公司登記的媒體業者跟法人登記的民間公益團體這就是你們行政院的版本嗎你法務部那時候給行政院行政院之後送出來的版本啊而且你後面的立法理由也寫得很清楚啊你們寫了五大點 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
20272.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
20287.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
有沒有先向媒體媒體或是公益團體爆料預防減少國家社會損失但是這一些機關沒有行政犯罪權所以才希望變成是第二層的受理揭弊對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
20288.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
20300.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那再者剛剛也提到了就是說這樣子的一個保護的一個狀況其實重點在於是第二項明定以案件由起訴裁定交付審判懲戒懲處懲罰彈劾糾正等相關具體客觀不法或違規情勢受本法保護之 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
20309.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
20332.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
第五點你也有提到所謂相關言論免責所以真的不用滾回一談不過我說實在話我相信即便這一條行政院現在還沒有所謂的院版版本出來但是法務部講說他已經修正了15次15次報行政院我們讓法務部來表達你的立場你可能也跟我們現在講的這個方向不會差距太遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
20334.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
20334.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
事務局副委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
20355.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
20355.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
20379.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
20408.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我講的超級有道理你們都是在訓練口才而已你們那個條文你們根本就沒有去看阿法務部法務部的版本之前的版本跟現在的版本是一樣我們來我們來拗你這個就錯了你講的不是法律你知道嗎你講的叫公職語言我們審了多久了你這跳進來你只是為了揭露一下你有發言而已啊整部法律你知道我現在在講什麼嗎你才是故意在挑逗我從第10屆的時候我就提出來版本要不要看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
20409.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
20412.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
刘仲敬等21人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
20437.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
20437.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
判斷判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
20459.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
20467.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
20487.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
20487.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
20510.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
20510.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
20795.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
20821.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
我們繼續開會所以第六條的部分我想說大家意見都很不一致那我們是不是就予以保留我沒有反對主席的保留在繼續下來之前我們在這個會議室當中我希望大家不要就討論內容後就給人家戴帽子說我會反對我會保留我會保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
20822.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
20850.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
過去我們立法院職權刑事法就在這個會議室就是召委主持的55條通通沒有討論就通通保留那個時候大家也是按照立法院的程序我們進入到院會去進行處理所以這個都是歷歷在目啊這個立法院發生的事情都是我記錄的還沒有很久欸不到半年前欸所以我們在審法案的時候陶冶協商或者委員會討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
20851.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
20868.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
大家除條除條來論理就像剛剛黃總召所說的互相尊重不見得說誰說的就是絕對的對那我們尋民主的機制那民主的機制包括有不同意見我們保留送院會這也是一個本院的一個議事程序的成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
20869.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
20869.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
20886.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
20913.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
作無謂的人身公己給人家戴帽子我們都很誠懇的就法條來進行討論容若彼此之間表達不足或是理解上有限制不能彼此體會對方主張的意旨的內容這個我們都有機會在互相的在溝通但是一下子呢就討論的時候就給人家說啊你是為了反對而反對會保留保留這樣不是我們委員會進行主條審查的本意我想這裡面呢都是立法院的議事都是有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
20915.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
20916.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
20942.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
20951.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
主席我剛剛說第二條要發言我剛剛本來有舉手後來被他們兩個人吵架打斷我還是就是說這一條保留的理由就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
20959.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
20973.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
我們不能講說這個剛剛中央民意委員他在質疑就是說有關這個中央民意代表中央或地方民意代表他是這個受理受理這個第二層的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
20975.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
21003.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
結筆對象 提出質疑不能說沒有道理你不能說他不是要件他還是要件之一你說結果他必須要受審判懲戒懲處這個也是嘛但是他第二層他必須必須像這個中央民意代表或具合法登記媒體業者像這個有做法人登記的這些團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
21006.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
21033.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
他為什麼向演藝人員申訴不行啊他就不受揭弊者保護了嘛對不對那為什麼神父、僧侶、牧師沒有列在上面沒有嘛所以我們列這個就是因為認為我們上面所各個版本提出來的對於針對這三個具這三種身份的團體跟個人他們有具有這個社會的一定的公信力嘛那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
21034.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
21062.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
大家在在討論這一條的時候針對這三個團體跟身份提出不同的看法我認為這個很正常這個這個這個這個在這樣的討論過程中有必要這樣子扣帽子說你們就是為為保留而保留嗎所以我是我是同意宗家兵的結論我們這個東西我們還這一條我們還是保留針對這個中央跟地方民意代表的部分我們還是有點疑議 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
21065.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
21085.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
好 謝謝 那就第6條嗎?沒有沒有 我要第7條 因為我以為你宣布第6條對對 他包括我一直講第6條那就第6條予以保留那我們接下來審查第7條也就是楊瓊瓔所提案的第4條好 那請問郭委員有無意見要提出好 黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
21088.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
21115.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
第七條的條文基本上它在規範的結構跟目的上面是在處理有關於是你對於吹哨者不可以有什麼樣子的不利處分對於吹哨者不可以有什麼樣子的不利處分那因此這個條文本身就這個規範目的程式來講跟前面的條文沒有太具體的但問題是什麼但問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
21118.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
21118.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
21120.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
21147.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
受規範的主體範圍不可以對吹哨者有哪些不利的行為他會直接牽涉到這個法案前面牽涉到有關於公司部門規範主體的問題因為不好意思我們現在是排序7對第67頁也就是林月琴委員提案的第7條以及楊瓊瓔委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
21148.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
21154.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
提案的第4條所以現在是要看哪一個Current第67頁您剛剛說的是69頁那個不太一樣再麻煩您一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
21173.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
21173.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
21193.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
21221.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
林月琴委員所提的案子看起來是是很有道理我們是不是就支持林月琴委員提出來的案子對啊我覺得林委員提的非常的道理只不過說林委員所提的案子我倒是注意到我們的主管機關好像有不太一樣的看法因為林委員所提的案子是包括了說他委任律師去做這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
21222.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
21239.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
但你覺得你們的意見好像是說你們法務部的意見我都有拜讀我很認真的有拜讀你們法務部好像對這個委任律師去這件事情要受到保護你們好像有一些不太一樣的看法是不是先請法務部的說明一下麻煩法務部這邊說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
21247.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
21251.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
你們該不會連你們第一次提到本委員會的書面都沒看過就來開會吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
21254.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
21275.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
案 您要不要請同仁趕快把你們上次提來的給你稍微看一下我們這邊來補充一下就是說關於這一個部分在損害賠償的部分我們這邊是認為說如果包含了這個期待利益跟律師的酬金這一部分會欠缺比較明確的不好意思我們剛剛才在說請你翻一下67頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
21278.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
21293.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
我們現在你剛剛主席宣告了以後可能署長沒有跟上主席宣告的PASS現在我們在處理67頁楊瓊瓔委員21人提案以及林月琴委員等17人提案那個署長你看到條文了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
21294.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
21320.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
來我唸給你聽:「揭弊者的被妥相關事證與書面電池記錄或延遲之方式具名像受理揭弊機關揭弊亦得委任律師代為之。揭弊者以延遲方式通報得獨自或經由委任之律師陪同至主管機關進行陳述,再由主管機關作成記錄並經揭弊者簽名確認。」署長您跟上進度了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
21325.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
21325.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
律師律師律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
21350.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
21361.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
公益揭弊者保護法草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
21386.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
21386.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
21391.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
21418.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
本來我對那個第67頁林月琴委員的提案第7條或者是楊瓊瓔委員的提案第4條這兩個是有些不同那我先講那個我比較保留的態度的是原來我就看到這個楊委員的部分他裡面第二項說媒體為前項之行為那其實這裡特別把媒體放進來那這個意義就是說這個媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
21420.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
21448.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
案。為什麼我剛剛對於前條保留的部分我認為這個登記的公司的媒體因為他本身有一定的規模可以對社會負責或者說可以去問責就是基本上的當可以問責的機構或個人呢我們把他納入讓他來受理揭弊者因為呢受理揭弊者本身他的身份初期我們是一定要保密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
21449.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
21467.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
有一個媒體一個公司大公司的媒體他說我這個是有評有據有揭弊者跟我檢舉那我因此經過了解之後有一定的事證有對公益有很大的妨礙是一定的弊案所以我拿出來報導其實某個程度上我們是信賴媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
21468.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
21497.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
所以在這裡面可是這裡的楊委員的部分他這裡的媒體就沒有像在前面第6條的部分做這樣要明確的規範所以就有點可惜那至於林委員的部分我本來是認為沒什麼問題因為看到是說受理揭弊機關亦得委任律師代刑之案那因為揭弊者當然他很擔心身份曝光但是某個程度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
21498.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
21499.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
案件,並且擬併案案件,並且擬併案案件,並且 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
21510.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
21511.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
報復法草案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
21530.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
21557.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
刑一些不必要的或者不應當的一些爆料呢來擾亂社會公眾的認知所以當這裡提到委任律師的時候的確相較於律師本身做一個事務所或者事務所的職業律師跟一個公司登記的媒體我覺得一個公司登記的媒體是比較可以接受問責的而相對律師的部分可能我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
21558.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
21559.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
21587.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
21615.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
一定具有一定受社會信賴而且可被問責那麼才不會呢造成揭弊者可以躲在這樣的機構後面或個人後面去濫行不必要的違反我們揭弊者保護法的一些爆料行為以上說明黃委員那我覺得這一條很好我覺得大家終於在這條有共識嘛就是楊委員的第四條跟林委員的第七條那我們就不予採納嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
21618.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
21618.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
21639.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
21641.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
21665.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
21690.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
桑委員你還堅持要...不會不會我只是希望順著走因為難得坐在這邊我看終於有共識我覺得這兩條港中委員也充分表他的看法覺得不適宜不妥那我也覺得他講的很有道理我們終於有共識了所以我才建議說那是不是就不予採納那現在大家多數的意見認為要保留那沒關係那我們就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
21693.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
21706.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
案案第4條以及林月琴委員提案第7條部分予以保留那我們現在審查林月琴委員提案第8條請問各位委員有意見黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
21710.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
21735.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
我覺得林月琴委員這個提案第8條的部分雖然在其他的版本比較沒有看到但我覺得他這個條文利益非常的良善利益非常的良善所以對於林月琴委員等17人提案第8條條文的內容我競表同意所以各位委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
21737.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
21756.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那沒有的話是不是第8條就通過是不是大家難得有共識可以好那我們就第8條通過好業績嗎好那我們現在審查好楊瓊瓔委員提案第5條及林月琴等17人提案第9條請問各位委員有意見提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
21759.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
21777.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
沒有因為現在第五條跟第九條的部分受理揭弊機關不處理他的那個那個消極要件的部分兩個版本規範的不太一樣那就我尊重昭緯的決定因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
21778.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
21806.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
以前委員會是提案的委員如果沒有來就是自己沒有來自己顧自己的法案我們通常就就處理掉了啦那但是我們也可以用另外一種比較有溫暖的做法可能有其他的公務行程今天沒辦法來那要按照剛剛前例因為兩個條文規範不一樣要宣告保留也都可以我都尊重那看請召委才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
21809.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
21825.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
就這部分看看各位委員有沒有不同的意見所以是予以保留嗎還是還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
21827.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
21828.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
判決委員吳宗健 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
21855.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
21878.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
我們回到第69頁就是其他的版本大概對的比較一致第7條的部分那我剛剛其實前面已經前一輪發言的時候我已經講過了因為第7條的部分雖然在規範的要件上面主要是對於你不可以對他採行什麼樣子的不利措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
21880.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
21905.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
來進行規範,把不利措施的太陽把它給清楚的弄出來。只是說因為他的第一句話的那個主詞誰不可以採行不利措施會直接牽涉到有關於公事部門範圍的問題。既然是這個樣子前面就保留。因此這一條在邏輯上面就勢必要保留所以我建議第七條保留。 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
21909.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
21935.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
請問郭委員有沒有不同的意見?請問這保留到哪裡?因為這個很多條喔,你要一保留從69頁的吳宗憲委員的版本的第7條,林月琴委員的第15條,那一直到哪裡?要不要請議事人員幫我們主席整理一下?我這邊手上有啦,那還是怎麼樣麻煩你們唸一下。在這邊啦,你要來看一下嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
21937.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
21954.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
主席是你主席不是我主席那還是你們看一下69頁就是那一欄對照過去他有很多很多版本嘛那因為你們應該都有吧69頁69到77頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
21970.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
21971.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
案 與保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
21987.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
22004.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
第7條的部分予以保留另外我先再宣告一下說保留條文的修正動議也是一併保留這個我想說宣告一下這樣子我們現在審查第8條第8條的部分請問各位委員有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
22006.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
22024.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
第8條的部分我先簡單的說明一下第8條主要在處理的是有關於消滅時效的問題那消滅時效的問題就以這條最核心的規範條文上面來講的話大概都是以6個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
22025.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
22027.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
22051.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
22075.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
划繁為儉的方式,透過比較划繁為儉的方式來加以處理不過因為他這一條裡面的規定他在條次上面會牽涉到前面會牽涉到前面已經被保留的第第七第七條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
22079.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
22106.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
對,它會牽涉到前面已經被保留第7條的條文所以雖然在核心的規範事項上大家都是消滅時效與知悉時後算6個月的核心的規範內容但是因為牽涉到前面被保留的條文所以在邏輯上面恐怕要一併的被保留好,那請問還有沒有其他意見要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
22112.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
22135.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
案。第8條的部分就予以保留。我們現在審查第9條。第9條我們看到第99頁。請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出。不好意思。這個第9條的部分他會牽涉到的是說當受 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
22143.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
22159.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
法律上規範具有保護義務的主體我現在先用比較抽象的法律名詞來形容因為在法律上面依照本法附有保護義務的主體這個來涵蓋可能是公可能是私可能是公私這樣講應該大家會比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
22162.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
22182.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
受有保護義務的主體他違反這一件事情的時候他所基本上接下來對於受保護的吹哨者他基本上面他所要針對有關於他所提供的勞務 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
22185.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
22203.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
要透過什麼樣子的方式給他賠償或者是補償的規定那在這裡因為受保護的主體的吹哨者跟受規範的主體同時都會牽涉到有關於是不是公司部門並行的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
22205.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
22232.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
同時都會牽涉到有關於公司部門並行的問題那核心上面的規範大概跟之前行政院所提出來的版本其實核心的內容是一樣因為大概就是除了不管是退休金或者是資遣費基本上是給相當於6個月工資補償金的總額如果他要終止掉他們彼此之間的勞僱關係的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
22237.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
22257.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
所以因為他會牽涉到有關於被規範的主體跟受保護的主體兩者之間是不是兼包含公職部門所以實質上恐怕第九條的條文也要予以保留以上是我的建議請問其他委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
22260.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
22277.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
這涉及到我們召委版本的修正動議版本的一個基本的結構所以其實前面保留後面沒有理由不保留是好謝謝那第9條予以保留好那我們現在審查第10條第111頁請問各位委員有沒有不同的有沒有意見要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
22280.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
22309.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
第11條的部分就是111頁有人是10有人是18有人是11我直接用頁字來講可能會比較精準一點就是如果是不管是五委員的提案或者是林月琴委員的提案或者是台灣民眾黨黨團的提案我們基本上面的提案因為這三個不同黨派的委員一開始的提案基本上都是以公司部門並 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
22312.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
22340.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
一併規範來幫助主要的規範結構所以針對公務員的部分大概就是依照公務員懲戒法跟考級法相關的規定來予以懲戒或者是懲處那如果說是就司部門的部分是由目的事業主管機關來給他科處一定的罰環那罰環的金額當然每一個版本不太一樣有的是五萬到五百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
22341.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
22341.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
刑罰刑罰刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
22362.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
22378.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
法環上彈性的範圍所以因為這個也會牽涉到是不是會對司部門加以處罰所以我會建議這條條文予以保留那只不過說在做這個保留的同時我只想要請問一下主管機關一個簡單的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
22383.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
22409.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
我們接下來除非啦把私部門完全都割除在外如果沒有把私部門完全割除在外的話那接下來有關於就法環的訂定法環的訂定我們勢必要去面臨到很小的企業跟很大的企業兩者之間的差別那傷痛的問題其實也發生在 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
22410.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
22425.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
勞基法 當初在處理勞基法有關的法環的時候其實勞工界或勞工團體界一直有一個很強的倡議你必須要依照企業規模size大小的不同給他不同級距的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
22427.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
22453.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那這樣子的話不同的企業他到底落在哪一個範圍哪一個級距當中比較有一個那個清楚的依據也可以符合現實上面不同的需求那另外一種規範的方式就是說我先沒有直接沒有在法律當中做這樣的區分但我在法環的額度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
22454.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
22457.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
案 等22人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 等22人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
22481.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
22490.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
案 採取Type A直接在法律裡面針對企業分歧還是Type B我們在法環的Range在法條的文字上拉得比較寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
22492.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
22518.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
但是接下來讓你們在具體個案裁罰基準的時候另外用行政命令定這個是第二種規範模式因為這個條文一旦保留了以後我相信各個不同的提案委員或者是黨團各自都還要再回去針對所提出來的條文看一看徵詢一下你們主管機關的意見是不是可以請我們的主管機關表示一下看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
22521.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
22548.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
報告主席、報告委員原則上我們是採B啦希望B嘛就不要立法者把集聚先定時嘛那你如果要採Type B的話那你現在就要開始思考一件事喔因為你如果要採Type B的話那個罰環的Range勢必要拉得很大在法律裡面喔您懂我的意思喔所以因為你們一開始所提出來針對我們黨團的版本你有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
22550.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
22577.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
建議你們所提出來的建議我都有看你們的建議是說我們一下從20萬到2億Range會不會拉得太大這個我懂但是我為什麼這樣做是我在保留你們接下來才Type 2有一個裁量基準比較符合操作的空間那個不然你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
22581.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
22605.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
不管是二十萬到兩億五萬到五百萬以下是不是從小的到大的都可以滿足這樣的需求恐怕會有問題我只是先請教一下主管機關的意見這樣子的話我們在下一個階段在擬相關文字上面的調整方向上面會比較清楚反正因為會牽涉到我剛剛所講的問題所以我是不是也建議這個條文就先保留因為可能有一些委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
22607.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
22632.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
對於放私部門進來這個事情大家會有一些不太一樣的看法那如果說是要把他放到國營事業的話那恐怕我們處罰的方式要再重新思考要不然罰國營事業那個不曉得在罰什麼就罰國營事業那你不就在罰納稅人嗎真的要負責任的人根本沒有真的要負責任的人恐怕沒有真的被罰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
22636.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
22643.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
請問其他委員有沒有意見那沒有的話那就本條予以保留我們現在審查第11條第117頁請問各位委員有意見黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
22653.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
22676.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
那個因為到這一條就真的跟主體範圍、客體範圍一點關係都沒有了就真的跟主體範圍、客體範圍一點關係都沒有他現在在處理的是什麼他在處理的是說我依照規定向受理揭弊的機關陳述的內容如果牽涉到國家機密營業秘密或依法應保密的事項就不附 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
22677.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
22702.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
寫密的責任。」那你如果進一步的往外延伸那你如果向律師去徵詢法律意見的話那他本來也都是屬於應該要祕密的事項也不會牽涉到什麼也不會牽涉到說有關於懲戒上面的責任那所以我覺得這一條看其他委員的高點我是覺得走到這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
22704.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
22719.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
我們也過了一條林月琴委員的版本大家也都覺得非常的好我們有一點進展這一條跟剛剛莊委員關心的事情或者是跟莊委員的關心的事情其實上面沒有什麼實際上面的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
22720.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
22745.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
那我看了這些條文了以後我覺得那個吳宗憲委員的條文寫的那個樣子我個人是可以就是說就是沒有支持台灣民眾黨黨團自己本來的條文因為我覺得你本來後來寫的那個方式也不錯那我是不是建議就按照吳宗憲委員等19人的提案通過好那那個我當然是同我當然是很支持那不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
22746.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
22755.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
第11條就依據吳宗憲委員所提的版本通過我們現在審查第12條請問各位委員有沒有意見?121頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
22807.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
22818.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
其他委員在看條文的同時我就簡單說明一下啦就基本上這個會牽涉到的是揭弊者他揭弊的內容如果揭弊者本身有涉及犯罪的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
22819.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
22834.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
那這個大家就會很關心嘛當你揭弊你自己本來也是在這個犯罪集團其中的一份子的話那給你一個什麼樣的處遇所以現在在條文的規範上面我們並沒有單純的因為揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
22835.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
22840.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
案案件事宜及法律責任案件事宜及法律責任案件事宜及法律責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
22853.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
22881.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
那也正是因為這個樣子所以才會在上面加說符合正人保護法第三條及第十四條第一項的要件這個時候才可以考慮可以依照同法十四條第一項與減輕或免除期刑那規範上面我覺得給那個法院在具體個案的裁量上是得 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
22882.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
22902.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
得依照同法的規定予以減刑或免除激刑。」因為有得這個字就讓法院在具體個案的裁量空間上面不會遭受到任何的限制或者是說不當的剝奪他也可以按照符合具體個案的狀況來予以處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
22906.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
22935.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
以這個角度上面來看的話吳宗憲委員的提案、廖偉翔委員的提案跟那個林月琴委員以及洪孟楷委員等人的提案基本上內容上面都一致大家仔細看一下發現內容都一致那既然各個版本的條文內容都這麼一致又沒有牽涉到公司部門的部分那是不是這一條我是不是建議就可以召喚通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
22939.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
22953.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
其實這一條到122頁有一個楊瓊瓔委員的版本我們今天其實都經過討論之後不管是不是有所保留都讓大家彼此的溝通能夠更為了解那其實這麼多的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
22954.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
22983.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
案。姑然前面所說的那六個版本包括台灣民主黨版本呢是條文文字上精神體力上都是一致的但是那楊瓊瓊委員的部分他是用什麼呢得減輕或免除其刑他用減輕或免除這裡面的就多了一個跟完全這個前面好強烈的那些精神啊是不是在在用字上是不太一樣想請教一下法務部這個部分他的最後的結果會不會不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
22987.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
22988.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
23016.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
23029.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
也贊成前面,聽到嗎?你是不是要讓我過去?你真的要讓我過去嗎?不是叫我做派人喔?要讓我過去就讓我過去喔?就是這一個條文的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
23033.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
23051.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
其實我就是要請行政機關表示其實這七個版本當中有六個版本沒有提及到行政責任所以我要表示說其實今天我們的討論呢很多地方不是只有因為公司部門併進還是只以公部門先行這個角度來思考我們主張保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
23051.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
23051.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
23070.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
23086.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
23093.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
23094.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
刑事責任刑事責任刑事責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
23112.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
23137.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我到鍾佳濱委員這個講法我是接受啦。因為我們心目中沒有幾條。趙委員你應該也都看得出來啦。不是說七個版本一次大家都有共識。那就七個版本大家互相抄來抄去。那些什麼版本提出來以後連來討論都不討論。我們在幫他們討論我就已經心裡都已經很那個了你知道嗎?剛剛為什麼被我轟出去你懂我意思吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
23138.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
23142.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
所以你是抱怨責林月琴委員嗎?不不不,我們都很頓頓的跟委司採納林月琴委員的提案啊,對不對?林月琴那是跟我慢慢地想出來的,你就知道後面那個六個怎麼來的齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
23152.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
23156.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
23175.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
23178.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案 案 》案 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
23195.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
23209.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
23226.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
23249.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
第13條的部分主要是針對有關於揭弊者他在符合政人保護法第3條的要件下他本人跟本人有密切關係的人可以去申請有關於人身安全的保護措施跟安置措施他比較重要的意義是說可能在看這個條文的時候有一些朋友會 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
23251.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
23277.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
23280.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
23302.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
在這邊針對於吹哨者在符合一定要件的情況之下人身安全限制的必要性第一項的部分是這個樣子那第二項的部分是說你如果為了要妨礙或報復揭弊者揭弊那對他或他有密切關係的來實施犯罪行為的話那這個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
23305.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
23312.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
23331.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
23349.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
除了楊瓊瓔委員之外其他的規範的方式基本上也都是採取比較一致的看法所以也尊重昭委還有其他委員的意見我是覺得這個不牽涉到公司部門的部分所以是不是就可以通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
23356.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
23383.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
謝謝主席因為經過我們莊委員的提點之後我才知道原來大家文字都一致也可以說英雄所見略同也就是說互相參考彼此的意見那麼因為這一題顯然的大概在彼此參考的過程當中有些細微的差別主要是說關於關心密切者要不要前面特別去強調包括配偶、直系血親等等這個是文字上會有不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
23383.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
23399.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
案案案件事宜等19人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
23407.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
23436.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
案件,對於揭弊者或其關係人在當身體或生命予有受害之餘者,那麼有關機關應該要採取必要的保護措施。」有時候看起來這樣的文字說起來比較原則性,但是事實上賦予相關機關的義務可能更為寬廣。那其他的具體的指明說,什麼意圖,要如何處刑,這當然也是一個非常具有剛性的一個保護效果。但我覺得這兩者都可以參採。 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
23437.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
23465.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
事不說我們也是保留兩者呢有機會到我們草野協商的時候都有機會來爭取另外一方的同意或支持中委的意思是希望本條予以保留嘛那黃委員的意見呢那都已經走到這裡了話都講成這樣了那就只能保留我只是希望啦是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
23474.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
23497.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
我簡單講啦就是說在這個法案內部有一些大家根本上面態度的不同這個我都尊重那有一些在旁邊跟這個法案相關核心的配套措施他不會因為公司部門而有所差別那我覺得如果不會牽涉到一些核心上面的差別能夠讓法案往前進是好事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
23499.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
23512.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
那至於說規範的文字上面因為牽涉到前後條之文字構成的不同要先保留這個我都尊重好那本條就予以保留好謝謝各位那接下來審查第14條132頁請各位委員有意見提出黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
23529.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
23553.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
第一這條的規定是基本上是對於揭弊者身份資料保密相關的規定那這個也是一樣這也沒有牽涉到什麼公事部門的問題在體力上不管是公部門還是事部門要納進來對於他身份的保密義務的這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
23555.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
23574.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
就是要做的這不會有任何的影響那唯一要考慮的事情這個是不是等一下請主管接官發表以下看法唯一要考慮的事情是說當我們在法律把它列為是附有保密義務的事項的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
23576.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
23598.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
違反這件事情違反這件事情你們是希望回到普通刑法去處理還是針對為了要強化對揭弊者的保護因為他跟一般普通刑法的洩密罪考慮就不完全一致了他本來就依法應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
23600.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
23619.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
我們這個法定下去它就是依法應保密的事項依法應保密的事項它違反的時候它所引發的刑事處罰這件事情我想聽一下主管機關的意見是說你們是希望回到普通刑法按照普通刑法的洩密罪來處理就好了還是我們必須要去呼應 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
23620.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
23648.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
對於揭弊者保護這樣子的一個立法意旨所以在揭弊者保護法裡面針對刑法的規定在特別的有一些加重的規範跟委員報告我們還是希望回歸到一般刑法的洩密罪來處罰就可以了因為我想要件事相當的這個我意見就不一樣我就跟你們保護部不一樣你說從 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
23651.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
23669.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
個人法律的部分你說從309妨礙名譽到妨礙信用的部分甚至於你從315條你到318那個部分就有妨礙秘密的問題你這個揭弊者本來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
23670.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
23670.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
保護法草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
23687.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
23689.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
公益揭弊者保護法草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
23717.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
23723.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
案 三）委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 三）委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
23743.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
23744.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
23768.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
23772.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
公益揭弊者保護法草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員吳智耀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
23797.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
23816.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
第14條的部分予以保留我們現在審查第15條137頁請問各位委員有意見這個牽涉到的是說你在針對揭弊者的個資他可以請求用代號的方式來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
23818.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
23843.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
請求用代表方式來做期司各個版本基本上我覺得應該跟之前行政院所曾經公開表示過的態度都是一樣所以這個部分是不是看看啦尊重其他委員的意見我覺得這個部分是不是可以考慮就不要保留當然大家如果覺得想保留要保留我也都尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
23850.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
23865.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
主席可不可以請教一下你的版本你說保密措施揭弊者得放棄之案好像你的版本有的有的沒有很好奇欸這個原因的考量是什麼就是您的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
23866.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
23870.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
23895.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
23896.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
法條上沒有寫就是表示要強行保密 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
23911.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
23933.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
法條上如果說得放棄嘛對不對如果你沒有寫的話是不是個保密就是變成是接受揭秘機關的一個義務就是說他對於因為我們都知道齁是不是不利益這個很難我們幫他做判斷當事人當然可以做判斷但是法律有時候會對於當事人的判斷也有限制譬如我就認為你就是要保密到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
23934.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
23934.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
23949.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
23950.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
23969.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
23969.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
23993.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
24021.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
那我就剛剛所說的啦我的考量就是這樣因為這個部分是讓揭弊者他可以自己自由決定那這個部分當然是沒有問題但是剛剛當然中召委考量的也不是說一定沒有道理嘛但是有時候我覺得揭弊者他在揭弊的時候他出來說了一些什麼事情啦那當然他也不可以去侵害到別人隱秘密的事項嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
24022.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
24022.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
24053.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
24078.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
我其實立場跟你一樣不是只有你的版本這樣寫好那請問一下沒有意見嗎所以這一條怎麼樣所以說這一條要沒有辦法我滿以為這一條會通過那黃委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
24080.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
24105.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
其他委員都說要保留了講破沒有用啦算了沒有關係啦大家有意見要保留就保留反正把這條規範的紙去大家都看完心裡自己有個底這樣就好了啦因為這個跟正人保護法裡面的規範基本上是平行的啦沒有什麼太高的爭議啦你說在這個過程當中你一定要我去什麼變身要偽裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
24107.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
24107.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
24119.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
24119.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
案件 第15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
24138.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
24162.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
因為有時候一個弊案可以透過一個單一揭秘者的身份的蛛絲馬跡可以牽連到潛在的其他跟這個揭秘者相關立場或協同者這個其實在很多的一個現實案例上都存在我講的比較隱晦一點如果這個揭秘者我知道他是個水果管他是蘋果香蕉我可以推論還有其他的芭樂跟蓮霧 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
24165.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
24185.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
此時,其他具有類似身份潛在的揭弊者協同人或許會因此而受到牽連。所以我強調說,不是有些屬於揭弊者本身的權利只限於他本身而可以讓他願意放棄,就放棄的。我只要強調這一點而已。 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
24190.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
24208.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
大部分的版本其實也都有這個放棄的記載第15條的部分我們就以大家的意見保留我們現在審查第8條楊瓊瓊委員等21人提案的第8條在第141頁請問各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
24217.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
24217.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
24223.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
24247.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
那各委員的意見是希望本條一一保留是不是?保留啦 讓他們來喔 保留 保留都是好事啊往前走 讓那個提案的人有機會再來發表一下他的高見 又沒有人反對他們他今天應該來捍衛他自己的版本是啊 所以你的同事來或不會來 什麼保留跟著未反對或反對 那個基本的ABC都不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
24249.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
24267.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
案 第8條與保留我們現在審查林月琴委員的第13條在第141頁請問各位委員有沒有意見我也要保留對國民黨的標準對民進黨的標準我也一樣啊都讓他們自己來吧好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
24270.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
24289.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
當然因為也認同我們專委員的說法其實我要提一下剛剛保留的第15條其實平行的第137頁林月琴委員的第11條雖然他本人不在現場可能主席有忽略他的版本裡面剛剛那一條他就沒有放棄的啦我還是要補充一下不是說所有的版本都放棄啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
24290.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
24292.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
案 。第13條與保留我們現在審查第14條林月琴委員提案的第14條請問各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
24323.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
24325.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
桑委員我們現在在審查林月琴的第14條 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
24353.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
24354.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
法務部有想要涉揭弊者保護官嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
24384.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
24413.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
保護也沒有。好,那就大家的意見就是本條予以保留,是不是?好,好,OK,謝謝。好,那我們現在審查楊瓊瓔委員等人提案第12條請問各位委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
24416.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
24431.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
這一定要保留因為他只是併案的時候沒有把他併到因為他基本上跟人身保護的那個條文基本上應該是平行的規定只是說他這邊多一個所謂保護署的程序那可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
24433.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
24458.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
法治人員在相關作業上面的時候在條文並列的平行上面沒有把它跟前面的把它放在同一個欄位上但實際上面的規範的目的是一樣那既然前面那個條文保留這個就勢必要保留請問各位委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話本條予以保留那我們現在審查第16條就第143頁請問各位委員有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
24507.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
24508.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
法務部主席和委員我們尊重委員的意見這個部分我們沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
24538.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
24539.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
判決判決案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
24561.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
24573.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
一個是有罪者一個是有罪確定者我也是覺得說這個版本當中要確定跟有罪者在實務的操作上會有造成哪些差異嗎?第143頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
24580.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
24606.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
以林月琴的版本委員的版本跟臺灣民眾黨的版本一個是有罪確定者一個是判決有罪者一個是判決有罪確定者就是這個確定確定與否我們聽聽看啦聽聽不好意思我直接說明一下啦那只是法條呈現文字的不同即使沒有寫確定兩個字的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
24607.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
24631.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
他心裡面在寫這個條文的時候一定是確定稍微想一下就知道了因為你到後面你要以他曾經被怎麼樣違準的話那顯然就是什麼你顯然不能夠你要把他排除在外你不能夠只是因為說他前面有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
24633.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
24653.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
經過歷經一個刑事訴訟程序你最後還是要什麼你一定要有罪確定才可以把他排除在外因為這個一定是沒有問題一定是有罪確定沒有確定之前都是無罪確定對我的是有罪確定對那其他委員的那個意思其實也是有罪確定的意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
24654.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
24674.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
判斷否則依照目前無罪推定的話那不可能是做這樣的解釋那看各位委員有沒有其他的意見所以第16條大的意見是與保留是嗎我是覺得都剛剛討論完了花了這麼珍貴的時間討論大家都有共識了嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
24677.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
24695.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
其實我就是因為如此我覺得也不保留與否其實就是留待後續有不同意見者的討論空間這是剛剛莊委員在說的我們其實經過討論後就是往前推進不管最後的結論因為有這麼多的版本有些為了差異那我們讓他有討論的機會 謝謝這樣喔可是其實這一條不是共識度很高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
24704.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
24705.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
判決判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
24732.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
24750.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
這個主席17條各位委員看一下啦他這講的是被揭弊行為得給予獎金這個部分我突然有一個想法是不是大家及時廣益再想一下這個講的是揭弊嘛那如果是惡意揭弊這個部分是不是也要去做特別的考量法務部你們這邊覺得要不要有特別的考量不然我這總覺得怪怪的不夠橫平 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
24766.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
24784.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
我先跟你報告的是你現在在上面看的版本都沒有包括惡意揭弊真的寫法不一樣譬如說你看中線的版本他前面第一句的起手式他的起手式就是依相關法令公部門可以給獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
24786.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
24800.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
所以他的那個法源的基礎不是只有單純的在這裡的揭弊者保護法他還要扣合一個其他的法令所以其他法令沒有在給惡意的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
24802.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
24803.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
犯罪案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
24832.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
24857.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
或相關稅務事件或食安事件等散落在不同的法規當中就有關於檢舉獎金的部分都有規定而且也給行政機關透過法律授權的方式去制定行政命令甚至有一些因為現在的體系太混亂了甚至有一些是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
24858.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
24863.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
案件,未必有法律明確授權的行政命令,是屬於內部規則的方式。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
24889.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
24891.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
其實這個給揭弊者一定必要的一個獎勵是大家都認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
24905.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
24906.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
24924.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
24924.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
判決判決判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
24942.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
24950.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
案 下限不得低於總額百分之十。不得低於因為違反法令者因為揭弊所受的罰款、罰金、沒收的財物或財產上的利益或追增價額還有財產抵償 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
24965.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
24966.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
案件 被揭發後遭受到的處罰,而這個處罰的一成是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
24980.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
24985.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
公益揭弊者保護法草案案 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
25010.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
25026.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
案 揭弊對象他那個人因此受到政府所處罰的我可以拿到一成來做這個獎金這個好像會造成像目前我們過去的這個所謂的檢舉違規那現在慢慢有些檢舉違規呢行政機關也發現恐怕造成腐爛後我不是說這兩者是一致的只是說有經過一段時間之後發現這個金額啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
25037.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
25038.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
25057.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
25069.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
因為我是很想辦公廳會所以我覺得這個部分也讓我們來跟社會各界徵詢意見要不要對於揭弊者給予的獎金要有對價式的一定的比例以上那這以上我的看法好 謝謝黃委員中委員的問題簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
25077.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
25089.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
針對有關於不法行為之揭弊因為不法行為之揭弊所取得相關的罰款給他一定比例的回饋這個在立法例上 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
25091.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
25110.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
案件,這在立法律上一點,一點都不特別。第二個部分,就最低比例,現在還只是最低比例,你甚至在稅務案件當中,他的綱性規則寫得更清楚,因為你去檢舉他逃稅的案子,然後因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
25111.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
25134.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
所追徵到的稅額以及罰款在我們現在的稅務獎金裡面定的更清楚當然我必須要講清楚那不是給公務員的公務員依照他自己職務上的行為那是他本來就該做的事情那個是給外部的人士那甚至為了怕公務員跟外部人士做串接中間還有一些其他上面的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
25136.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
25149.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
不過就這個條文本身因為給獎的方式以及規範的內容各個版本上的確有一些差異存在所以我贊成就跟前面的條文一樣就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
25153 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
25168.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
我看這樣子大家的意見就是趨向本條予以保留第17條的部分就予以保留我們現在審查楊瓊瓔提案第17條在第153頁請問各位委員有意見提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
25173.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
25181.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
法務委員這直接動作比較快一點講就是說現在大家再看一下153頁用頁數看現在比較會清楚這樣比較不會混亂153頁楊瓊瓔等21人提案他是因為前面他已經有規範的保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
25193.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
25195.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
25204.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
25223.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
那這一條就可以刪除但是剛剛大家似乎委員的看法是說也不要因為提案的委員沒有來就這樣子沒有把他納入考慮所以前面保護令的部分既然保留了這一條勢必要保留要不然前面那個保護令就毫無意義這個是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
25224.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
25226.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
25241.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
25267.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
那相同的邏輯也出現在153頁台灣民眾黨黨團的提案我們認為說要設揭弊者保護委員會那前面在第二條的部分已經被保留了所以在邏輯上我們第18條的部分也就是大家153頁所看到的楊瓊瓔委員的第17條林月琴委員第24條以及台灣民眾黨黨團提案的第18條三個部分基本上都要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
25270.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
25293.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
我們還是一樣一條一條第17條就是153頁的部分請問還有沒有委員有意見要提出本條予以保留林月琴委員所提的第24條這跟前面13、14那個其實應該都是要用保留看看各位有沒有不同意見就本條予以保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
25295.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
25311.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
案 。接下來是台灣民眾黨提案的第18條在第153頁請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出是不是也是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
25314.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
25325.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
那就一樣就是都保留好那徐巧欣我們在接下來審查徐巧欣等19人提案第18條請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
25344.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
25356.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
請教主管機關這個有沒有列會不會影響到後面所謂的誣告未證罪交檢調機關調查及法起訴的效果?這條算很有創意的看起來又像盲腸 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
25373.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
25373.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
25393.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
25417.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
我覺得這一條其實是不用規範可是問題是提案的人沒有來闡釋他自己他放進去他的要加強或意義在什麼地方看起來是一個提醒作用而已啊可是法律條文涉及到刑法的部分應該很少去用提醒的這樣的來當理由的吧所以我尊重提案人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
25417.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
25436.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
對啦,就把他留著啦因為其實你有時候寫這些處請注意性的規定會讓一些對揭弊者保護法可能有一些擔心或是覺得有一些覺得你亂爆料怎樣怎樣你沒有用法條的文字寫是上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
25437.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
25464.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
案件,其他人可能比較不知道說你亂搞本來就有其他的罪名可以去追溯你所以雖然是一個注意性的規定那對於《揭弊者保護法》本身並沒有要保護這些亂七八糟的內容也有一些澄清的效果不過大家都決定要保留那是不是就見請召委就把它保留下來好謝謝那我們就第18條的部分就於保 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
25469.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
25481.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
需小心等19人提案第18條的部分予以保留。好那我們現在審查第18條就是第155頁那請問各位委員有意見。好黃委員。這個應該有共識了吧。這個應該有共識了吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
25490.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
25514.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
這個本法的施行細則由行政院會同司法院考試院定製,這個大家還有不同的看法嗎?有,其實我也在想說,這樣夠還不夠?是,我是在想說有沒有道理啦?有沒有道理啦?監察院放,因為各個機關都會有碰到這樣的一個問題啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
25519.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
25537.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
我來請教這個法務部門這邊你們的高深的法律見解看看因為我是覺得監察院放進來監察院是受理機關不過我們還是尊重委員的意見沒有應該是有可能有弊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
25539.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
25540.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
判決委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
25558.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
25558.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
25587.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
25587.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
25606.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
25627.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
案,當然這樣說有點玩笑話啦,但事實上呢當我們再處理到這個事情細節的時候,行政院會同司法院,那麼後面的考試院也好或監察院也好,到底需不需要納入,因為我剛剛再說一次,這個基本上的一個憲政體制啊,多數意見都認為考試院跟監察院都不用保留了,那我們本條文要不要保留? |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
25629.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
25632.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
25657.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
25680.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
公部門的部分把他納入因為對公務員所為的不利處遇他基本上跟哪一個院最有關係考試院會跟保訓會那邊會跟全訓那邊直接做連結所以為什麼把考試院拿進來那不是亂下的啦絕對有他的理由在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
25683.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
25710.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
對所以我就跟你解釋說那當然你如果問我的話我向來啦我認為臺灣未來應該要走向三權分立啊現在就國不離三中嘛你也知道修憲就推不動嘛你也沒機器啊對不對我我我沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦不要我先不要我我老實跟大家講齁我今天坐在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
25713.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
25738.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
我就是希望把這個法案在委員會的程序我一定要從頭到尾參與到滿所以莊委員你應該可以聽得出來我今天是很有誠意通通都沒有在吵我跟你解釋跟你解釋說為什麼裡面有考試院是因為你看裡面具體的條文公部門不立處分的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
25739.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
25746.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
現在在我們的憲政體制下誰在管就考試院嘛所以為什麼一定要把考試院拿進來的理由在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
25771.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
25777.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
因為他像盲腸所以放進來,可是問題是他現在事實上存在,人家一個人權委員會。我先問你們的意見,看你們感覺怎麼樣?這次能夠來?你們的看法如何?你們有來嗎?我要講一句,表演一下,不然你們坐在那裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
25794.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
25818.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
檢察院報告委員會我們內部有討論過那既然檢察院是受理機關之一連國家機密的部分也是受理機關所以有關於施行細則的訂定的時候是建議能夠把檢察院也放進去以上報告這樣保留大家集思廣益 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
25822.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
25845.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
案。第18條就予以保留。我們現在開始審查第19條第156頁。請各位有意見的可以提出來。主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
25848.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
25868.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
我特別注意到你的版本沒有特別意思啦你的版本是說世新日期有行政院定資我特別注意到您的意見是這樣所以對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
25877.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
25879.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
25908.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
25908.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
25914.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
25940.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
請以宣讀。父代決議已有鑒於現代社會經濟與政治間的互動頻繁,許多公部門的貪腐,其噪音便使於私部門基於不法利益的謀取,甚至關說賄賂所致,因此一方面私部門本身含瓜領域對社會大眾權益的影響重大,二方面藉由肅清公私部門間共同違法等面向,使得保障人民法益,而法制上需考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
25941.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
25958.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
犯罪犯罪所具備的隱匿性與共犯結構性,不論公司部門,對於組織機關的外部人來說,內部的資訊是相當隱晦而難以得知的。若能鼓勵內部人主動提供相關資訊,除了可以及時取得事證,有效打擊犯罪外, |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
25958.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
25974.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
案）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
25982.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
25999.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
揭露不法侵害公共利益的揭弊者以有效打擊政府機關與民間企業之貪腐弊端推動公私合併之揭弊者保護法案提供安心吹哨的保護措施並期於推動過程中形塑揭弊者正面形象之價值觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
26000.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
26021.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
竟而建構對貪汙零容忍之社會氛圍原建勤法務部於揭弊者保護法生效施行後三年內提出司部門推行公益揭弊者保護法之可行性評估專案報告提案人委員吳宗憲聯署人謝龍介羅志強洪孟楷附帶決議二 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
26023.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
26033.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
以國內以中小及微型企業為經濟主幹,依照經濟部2023年中小企業白皮書,2022年已超過163.3萬家,占全體企業達98.9%,又依據2022年行政院主計總署微型企業瓜胡及5人以下公司。 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
26044.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
26054.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
案）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
26064.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
26084.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
三（三者是否均一己施用仍有諸多爭議不宜貿然同步增定二（原進行法務部會同相關單位與揭弊者保護法生效施行後三（個月內提出各目的事業主管機關之行政指導原則毗例相關產業得以依循提案人委員吳宗憲聯署人謝龍介羅志強洪孟楷宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
26087.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
26095.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
主席,那個在處理我們的意識上,因為附帶決議保留是沒有意義的啦,我是覺得因為我們的案子保留是要到院會去做決定到底是公私併進 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
26108.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
26118.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
案案件事項．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
26124.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
26125.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
判決判決 判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
26141.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
26169.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
實用了這麼多的充足的時間來做充分的討論並沒有達成這樣的一個目標那雖然對主席提出修正動議的版本內容上很欽佩但是呢那就附帶就無所複利嘛是不是我們就好謝謝謝謝鍾昭緯我沒有跟那個議事人員討論過他們是認為說既然我們他所原本所屬的條文已經是保留了那這附帶決議就是一併保留然後送交院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
26172.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
26196.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
對我們剛剛有跟那個不是啦第一個啦我講個理由啦就是不是請議事人員講一下我們請議事人員解釋一下好不好沒有意義啊你到院會的時候你要做什麼附帶決議我們都沒意見啊你這裡就不會通過而且我們今天是這個公益揭弊先行的你這邊做的附帶決議又弄一個中小企業的進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
26198.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
26201.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
我是覺得比較奇怪我好意跟你提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
26203.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
26229.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
楊瓊瓊指示向委員會報告附帶決議的部分實務上面是有附帶決議被保留但是這裡還是尊重委員會的合意是啦我懂你的意思啦但是我這個意義沒有意義嘛我們今天很好不容易把它審完啦意見是保留的嘛那保留的你像比如說你到院會的時候你要去做出什麼附帶決議那再來做嘛黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
26233.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
26262.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
是我覺得大家還是思考一下啦就如同剛剛委員有講就是說其實我剛我剛在審學生輔導法可我也在思考你剛講是說保留也是一種進步啦本來就是啊大家都保留啊某種程度上所以你就來了你就你就別人在那裡說什麼來煽惡別人賣你我不能收你我沒煽惡別人賣你不要這樣我現在我已經很和緩了所以魏雄委員先把你的麥克風關掉吧現在我講好不好講你的我沒講的就好我講啦好啦你先關掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
26262.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
26263.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
行政部門的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
26281.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
26286.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
兼具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件事宜之事宜之事宜之事宜之事宜之事 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
26311.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
26339.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
那我們也看到了現在有兩個版本來討論那一個月或是一個多月的時間到底行政部門能不能拿出你們的版本來一併討論我覺得我們已經退到這樣的一個程度大家都希望往前走那今天也都逐條討論大體發言三個小時逐條討論兩個小時那總是現在我們要更精確的不要到最後變成是說我們都是要去表決嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
26340.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
26365.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
那行政部門到底現在掌握的狀況怎麼樣我們還是要尊重行政院的決定沒有被授權對我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
26367.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
26371.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
26396.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
26412.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
沒有辦法滿足人民對於揭弊的需求、打貪的需求、防堵的需求。總委員主席我想接下來的議學的程序的討論我大概跟大家請 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
26414.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
26437.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
案 。事實上根據我們議事討論的規則委員會是呈院會之命去進行院會交付的法案的審理像本案因為在院會一讀後交付本委員會進行審查所以到時候審查完畢我們要有一個審查報告但是今天我們的審查內容並沒有能夠對院會做出任何明確的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
26438.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
26457.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
也就是說我們的每個條文除了少數在通通都是保留所以我們能做的審查報告就是包括今天最核心的分歧就是到底要公私併進還是以公部門先行這個基本的差異我們沒有辦法跟院會說明說我們採取哪一個版本哪一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
26458.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
26458.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
26471.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
26488.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
那什麼是附帶決議呢?附帶決議並不是附帶要院會來執行我們要求的事情。這個附帶決議是希望在場的行政機關能夠提供我們進行法案推進所必要的一些協助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
26489.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
26518.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
其實委員會做成的附帶決議其實對於行政機關來講從我們這次憲判一一三憲判九我們就很清楚其實整個行政機關行政立法互動是以院會院跟院之間去進行互動那委員會做成的附帶決議過去以上以來都是敦請行政機關為了協助委員會進行院會交付的預算案的審查法案的審查等等人事同源的審查我們希望他配合提供資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
26519.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
26519.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
26527.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
26552.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
內容是說假設是個假設不是假設是假定已經設定我們通過的版本是公部門先行那再請行政機關去研議評估三年內要怎麼樣推到私部門去又或者說這個揭弊者法案的生效後的三個月要如何如何如何這些事情在委員會都還沒有發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
26553.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
26553.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
行政機關等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
26574.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
26575.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
26597.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
26598.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
26628.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
26630.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
我反對這個決議是有附帶決議是有他的道理的啦你像比如說我們第一條是保留啦我們第一條我們把那個邏輯方向一致大家就可以往前走啦就是說你第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
26656.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
26657.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
案．一．委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
26679.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
26704.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
26708.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
26729.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
26736.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
26736.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
26763.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
26764.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
26780.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
26781.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
26805.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
26822.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
桑董透偉是誰想收割大家看得很清楚沒有版本一直在那邊講話我真的搞不懂為什麼我們沒有人要把你們收割這個我們只是跟你說這個衝擊太大而已誰要收割你們如果要享有那個成果你就好好來討論就這麼簡單我這樣講條文保留表示委員會沒有特定的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
26831.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
26832.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
案案復代決議復代決議復代決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
26848.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
26850.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
案件,此外,此外,此外。 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
26864.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
26890.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
案 。此附帶決議是因為我們在審查過程當中因著我們有個審查決定我們覺得要做這個附帶決議而且這個附帶決議也不需要回到院會去做成了附帶決議之後就請行政機關請他們協助所以院會沒有義務去處理我們委員會所保留的這個附帶決議除非這個附帶決議跟未來院會再受理再重新啊院會再 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
26891.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
26894.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
26910.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
26925.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
案 委員會只是向大院會負責受院會之委託進行審查後交一個報告給院會委員會那再做出一個附帶決議是居宿院會我們的附帶決議向來就不是居宿院會我們的附帶決議向來就是提醒行政機關參著參採能夠給予我們立法或者審查預算的一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
26931.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
26932.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
判決者保護法草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
26947.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
26968.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
實在是不曉得這個互代決議的效力對象是誰啊所以才說這個是醫學上的問題所以我才請主席明察我們委員會做的互代決議的效力是向行政機關延期如果說保留的意思大概是指說這個事情我們就放在委員會下次有機會我們再來做討論不是交到院會去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
26970.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
26997.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
因為我們剛有問過議事人員他說以前也有這樣子做那當然為什麼會提這個附帶決議那因為是前面修正東西說真的啦我今天就是不希望說我們法案整個卡死在那裡那我也參照了大家的想法然後公聽會的想法以及行政機關的想法所以我才會做私部門那個領域的限縮那當然這個我說真的啦我這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
26999.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
27016.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
判決判決定判決判決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
27023.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
27048.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
負貸決議,這就是一個平衡我們今天限縮私部門的這個部分,我們今天要求行政機關三年到了就來檢討,我不是說三年到就一定要把規劃進去,而是三年到了就來檢討是不是要擴及私部門。來,趙偉,我不是跟你說你這個不好啦,我不是跟你說你這個一跟二不好,我不是這個意思。 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
27049.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
27070.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
你那個去考慮到最後一般民間企業要去揭弊你先去做一個訂出一些行政指導來我都沒意見未來搞不好真的會走到這一步都不一定我現在的講法是說你第一條都還保留我們是在講議事程序的問題不是說你吳宗憲這個附帶決議一跟二不好不是這個意思嘛我是阿條阿條你自己在搞什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
27079.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
27080.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
案．立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會議．立法院第12次全體委員會議．立法院第12次全體委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
27111.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
27111.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
27127.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
27127.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
27147.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
27159.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
案件,由院會交給我們的七個版本,包括主席的版本,都在本委員會進行審查。在審查的時候,有召委在對自己的版本提出修正動議。這個修正動議我們在委員會也沒有做成處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
27160.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
27160.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
27191.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
27192.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
判決議案 判決議案判決議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
27220.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
27246.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
案 內容上我們剛剛專委也說了我們不是在對內容有意見 而是說你把這個負債決議保留了也不是決議喔 沒有決議喔 因為現在的情況當然也不宜做成決議我們也覺得內容上也沒有必要去給他否決 但是保留這樣的一個處理程序就像剛剛說的這個盲腸 你把這個盲腸再送回去給月會月會交給你的時候沒有這個東西啊 現在交回來這個東西要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
27247.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
27261.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
法律提案（立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12屆第3會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法� |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
27263.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
27290.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
交流意見而已啦齁那主席怎麼決定我我覺得嚴禁於此啦嚴禁於此我再說服一下我再來說服一下就是就是說沒有沒有我再來說服趙偉一下趙偉你問你這邊的議事人員就是說你這個不用在這裡處理我們不要回這個我們今天好不容易我們今天大家有進展了你是你在二讀會的時候草野協商的時候你要把這個做出來我就不反對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
27292.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
27292.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
負貸決議等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
27308.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
27332.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
我再講一次喔稍微我不是說你的附帶決議不好我也不是說你的惡不安都不是我的意思就是說不是放在這邊應該是你到草野協商的時候在二讀會的時候你們再把這個附帶決議做出來我們委員會深化進來什麼我們這算往已經好不容易把它推進了我們它僵在這個地方你不可能因為這個去表決吧不然我要來照啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
27335.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
27352.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
那我不是因為這個慣例很多那我剛也查我剛也查了一下我們那個113年7月5號我們在302會議是那個外行委員會他也是一樣的做法就是附帶決議也是保留啊呃我看一下吼而113年7月5號對 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
27356.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
27383.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
結果我剛問了祖密祖密說過去這個例子很多這個例子很多因為我這邊查到是這個啦所以然後再加上那個剛剛議事人員說其實過往也有這樣的例子嘛那事實上我覺得我覺得這個不會有影響啊對不對不會有影響嘛那如果說今天這個東西會影響當然說真的欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
27385.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
27386.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
法律局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
27404.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
27404.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
案（二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
27422.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
27424.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
27448.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
27448.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
判斷判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
27454.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
27480.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
我不是不跟你說道理啊,我是跟你說道理的。今天我也是當主席啦,否決我們的公聽會提案啊。是嘛。而且這個東西不是...我說真的今天我今天提出這修正動議,其實我跟你講行政機關更喜歡啦。不然你說堅持原本的那個...錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!不是只有他們喜歡,我也喜歡。放錯地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
27482.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
27482.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
判決判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
27507.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
27529.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
你不是要表決?我不知道啊,因為剛剛你不是說要表決?過去例子很多啦沒有必要這樣子堅持啦就沒有必要堅持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
27535.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
27535.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
莊瑞雄委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
27582.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
27601.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
因為我跟你講這個例子很多,那如果我們說這樣錯,那不是以前所有人都錯了嗎?就是請你收回成名就好了,對不對,也不為難啦,我們沒有勉強,會議到這裡就結束了。好啦,那這樣啦齁,就是,好,那個,這樣啦齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
27602.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
27625.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
所以眾委員是蠻堅持的沒關係啦,那這樣好了啦,我想說既然如果說大家堅持這樣,那我就順...大家...因為這個只是多簽一次名的動作因為我剛剛其實很簡單,因為這個網歷非常多,意識人員說也沒問題就是附帶決議併的保留嘛,那我就想說那就併保留讓大家一起看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
27627.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
27628.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
27656.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
27657.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
判決判決案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
27674.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
27674.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
27698.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
27723.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
案。我們本案諸條審查已經處理完畢,我們做以下的宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商。院會討論的時候,由吳昭吉委員中線出席說明。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
27727.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
27727.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
27809.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
27809.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
案）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會 |
| IVOD_ID |
16240 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16240 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-07T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-07T16:16:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |