| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4b47bc6500708d15f2562bec6fef2293083084566cc2bdb4b42e4975c0414ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-06T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：(一)本院司法及法制、內政委員會報告併案審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人及委員高金素梅等24人分別擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(二)本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」，請審議案。(三)本院委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條、第四條及第七條條文修正草案」，請審議案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
8041 |
| 委員發言時間 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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各位午安我們現在開始協商會議那協商進行前我們先介紹道場委員還有機關代表黃國昌委員鄭天才委員蔡依瑜委員莊瑞雄委員高金委員接下來我們介紹道場的機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1908.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1922.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
原住民族委員會副組委古仲克勒方安內政部民政司專委劉立芳全序部法規司專委廖康儒 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1928.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1952.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們現在開始進行協商司法及法制、內政兩委員會併案審查委員鄭天財等16人及委員高金素梅等24人分別擬具《原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案》等二案審查會於113年10月9日審查完畢審查結果第三條保留第四條照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1954.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1978.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商。令委員黃仁等29人提案及委員鄭天財等18人提案。今113年10月25日第十一屆第二會及第六次院會決定經複二讀與相關提案併案協商。以上共計四案,於今日併案進行協商。協商時,請參閱協商條文對照表。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1981.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2007.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
與審查報告及進覆二讀提案關係文書與會員委員如有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論那我們現在先請提案委員說明黃仁沒有來那我們請鄭天才委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2011.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2026.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好,這個召委還有各黨團的代表有關這個《原民會組織法》這個第三條特別我修正了,主要就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2028.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2044.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
上次在討論的時候在說明的時候我也講過一次我也再說一次就是因為這個山地原住民跟平地原住民的劃分這是已經是一個非常久的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2045.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2049.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2063.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2066.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2084.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2097.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提出修正條文。」本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提出修正條文。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2109.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2131.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
而每一次主任委員事實上他的時間也沒辦法前面的去每個地方然後所了解的也是有限所以比較常年比較多的就是平地原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2131.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2133.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2141.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2145.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2169.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2174.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
有關主任委員即將經過地方民意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2176.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2200.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
同意這個部分當初之所以會提這個部分最主要就是蘇貞昌當院長的時候一直強調要分流自治因為《原住民組織法》一直在過去的八年多來唯一沒有提出《原住民組織法》任內的總統就是過去的八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2201.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2230.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那未來恐怕也是很難很難很難送來所以這個部分才會有所謂的分流竟然院長、處院長有所謂的分流自治才會提出這個部分但是因為上次討論的時候大家有有不同的意見所以我就把這個這個部分有有做一個修正動議有修正動議然後我也另外提出了這個另案另行 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2231.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2245.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
提案也把這個部分刪除了所以這個部分目前就我新的提案是沒有包含這個部分就是第三條的第二項是沒有包含那另外就是族群委員的部分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2246.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2271.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主委的部分我上次也講過了因為現在的族群委員的代表性已經沒有這個過去像這個族群委員能夠代表這個族群能夠具有這個族群的一個相當的地位這個基本上就已經沒有這樣的一個功能了所以我才會把它改為無極值那事實上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2273.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2276.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2294.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2301.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2325.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2325.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
請出席黨團代表表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2342.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2366.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 謝謝那我代表民進黨團先發言那針對今天我們司法跟內政併案審查的原住民委員會的組織法關於第三條跟第四條那第三條有講到由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任但是這個輪流擔任這樣的意思就代表說山地原住民做完再換原地 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2366.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2388.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
平地原住民當然首先一開始我是認為說一樣是原住民有必要再去把它區分叫做山地原住民跟平地原住民這個是我一開始我就覺得當然原住民會有不同的族不同的族之間然後要保留各族的文化這個我們是認為支持的但是如果你要把它再化作 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2389.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2410.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
三地跟平地這樣的區分是否是有意義的區分這個是我一開始我心裡就會想不過當然法律上是有去定義三地跟平地那主委的任命由三地跟平地輪流擔任這件事情那萬一如果今天是一個平地原住民那他確實擔任不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2413.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2436.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
確實做得不錯,然後也受到整個原住民民族覺得這個組委真的做得不錯,但是因為整個內閣,如果內閣總辭,內閣總辭後又提名,又要新的重組內閣,那麼就輪流擔任,這個讓覺得做得不錯,就不能再被提名,因為卡到輪流擔任,就一定要換下一個就是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2437.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2442.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2452.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2477.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以我覺得這樣輪流擔任就有為責任政治的一個精神那至於副主委的部分如果同時間幾位副主委要有平地原住民同時也應該要有三地原住民就是說兩個不同的同時都要在副主委那我想就可以兼顧到原住民他們會擔心平地跟三地是否會有照顧沒有辦法周全的狀況所以我是覺得我們在第三條的時候我們要用平地跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2482.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2490.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
三地來做輪流擔任這個我覺得是沒有必要而且也不符合責任政治那第四條的規定就是要把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2494.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2505.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個原住民委員會的委員這一個把它無幾職要把它改成無幾職那我想原住民委員會的組織原住民委員會的委員他是有幾職這個從過去到現在那主要他並不是一個任務性的編組他是等於一個長職而且這一些委員也確實他都會在這一些原鄉裡面然後會 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2520.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2543.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
本院委員會在地方,他可能要去聽取一些地方意見,然後或者是跟原住民互動,然後去整合意見,然後再給整個原住民委員會來做他整個政策上的一個推動。那既然說這一些他是有任務,有常態性任務是由他去做的,那所以我們給他相對應讓他有一些知己, |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2544.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2547.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2563.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2588.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
國民黨重新執政後,又要把它改成郵寄職,那何必這樣去做呢?因為大家都覺得說,為什麼會有原住民?就是過去,可能在於整個漢人的文化裡面,原住民受到了剝削,所以大家認為說,我們現在台灣是基於尊重原住民文化,然後我們所以有這樣的一個特定的組織,那我們現在既然也覺得說,他們可能要在那裡跑, |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2591.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2593.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2593.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2596.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2625.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2636.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
中委員對不起其實我都尊重國民黨或者民眾黨看要不要先發言那我來講一下我這個這個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2638.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2662.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
不一樣的一個看法啦我們這個原民會的一個組織法第三條裡面本來是我們設置一個主任委員特任原住民來擔任本來是這樣那現在呢你又把它區分說是由山地跟平地原住民輪流擔任我一直在想說其實台灣的原住民也不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2663.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2669.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
三地原住民也不是只有平地原住民那現在平埔族你叫他怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2671.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2694.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們總不能說你們要來尊重我們我們要來尊重我們那我們就跟人家說你那個平埔族不算這樣講就不好了吧基於各個民族的這樣的一個尊重你像比如說我們這個新法政法條文裡面去強調保障原住民族的一個地位但是我們在內政委員會我們討論了多少次 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2696.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2710.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這111年作成的憲判制第17號判決意旨裡面就是強調這個平埔族也應該具有相同的一個地位那像鄭委員應該我沒有記錯的話是阿美族阿美族的代表阿美族的驕傲對不對所以我們兩個常常會跑來跑去吵來吵去我都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2716.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2718.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2735.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2752.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
原住民平地原住民輪流看起來公平但我也覺得不對因為變成說原住民裡面刻意去把它做一個分化這個也沒有必要啦我覺得沒有必要啦我是認為3地原住民有資格來當組委 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2754.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2773.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
平地原住民當然也有資格來當,平埔族他也有資格來當,我這樣認為啦。那如果要這樣分的話,真的要細分的話,那現在這16族裡面,我可以講說好啊,那個鄭天財表現最優秀,阿美族第一個輪流。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2774.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2776.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2792.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2809.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
原住民的身份你就可以來當這個組委我覺得這樣會比較好一點因為畢竟不是只有山地跟高山原住民你還有一個評估組除非你認為說那個憲法法庭亂判的沒有人敢這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2811.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2832.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你這樣講就沒道理了,你這樣講,那一個判決出來是為了尊重原住民族,所以這個不要基於自己喔,自己主觀上的一個好惡,我覺得也不好啦,我覺得這樣也不好。請教召委的就是說,我們現在一個一個條文來是吧,還是要全部,就先第三條來是吧,如果第三條來我就先講到這個地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2832.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2862.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們就直接一起一起一起這樣比較有效率那也可以啦我那我是覺得像譬如說那你如果說講到第四條本來委員這個19到29人各族代表一人依聘用條例來做一個聘用那其他你就認為說全部都是無幾值那我們現在修正條文是19到29人這個部分全部都是無幾值每一個族群都有一個我是有一個代表我覺得正當合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2863.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2877.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
也合理啦原民委員本來是有幾職然後各族群的一個代表性來的一定有代表性你搭配著專家學者來肩負這樣的一個專業性我一直認為這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2879.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2904.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
非常兩全其美的一個設計就像我們立法院裡面一樣每一個政黨有區域立委代表整個區域裡面選民的心聲各政黨也有部分區同時也代表的民運代表也各捐具像很多委員也都有他的一個專業性韓國昌委員也好麥委員也好都有他自己的專業性那也可以容納多元的一個聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2906.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2930.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我是覺得我在我都不想陷入說原民跟原民委員之間的一個競爭但是我比較持平的看就是說再思考一下啦高度再拉高一點思考一下倒也不是說每一個政黨要輪流執政改來改去的一個問題啦過去如果現在這個狀況過去也發生那過去因為我自己執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2935.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2937.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。」 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2964.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2969.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
民主的一個政策、制度、計劃跟相關法規的先期的一個審查。 這個其實是很龐大的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2973.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2986.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
有需要用心還有委員會裡面的一個會議的一個重要議案的一個掀起的一個審議甚至與相關機關原住民族事務的掀起協調聯繫主持到參與族群相關的一個會議調查研究協調除非我們發現這個委員你把他推舉出來以後他全部都沒事幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2998.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3001.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
不能光一個組織的話我相信你說無幾職也好奇怪也好奇怪所以這些事情我把它看完以後連組織還有出席專案小組的一個會議參加這個族群碎石的一個祭儀民俗文化跟傳統祭儀跟演慶典跟活動還有辦理那個主委交辦事項等正職的這些工作我看過就覺得這些工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3028.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3050.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
立法委員除了還要一個跑選區以外我相信這些委員他其實也都肩負著很大的一個責任所以你就全部要把他變成無極職真的我也請我們在場的不同政黨的委員大家再來做一個善施連立法委員你跟他講說你們立法委員全部都是無極職部分區一定跳腳 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3054.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3070.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
部分區一定跟你講說我很專業我不用選舉而已我要勞心我要勞力我的能力都不輸給你們我本身這世界裡面我有兩屆是區域接下來我兩屆是部分區我也不覺得說我到了部分區以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3071.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3094.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我對整個立法院的一個貢獻、心力、投注就會比較少所以區域的如果跟他講說不溫區的全部都不用薪水我會跟你說你回去睡覺吧你乾脆不要選要沒薪水大家都來沒薪水要沒薪水大家都來沒薪水所以你把這個我們是基於整個對原住民族的一個尊重跟他重視讓這些委員本來是有幾職那後來因為這一些小波折我會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3099.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3114.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
有過的地方啊去改進提名的部分不適合的部分那你怎麼樣一個政黨裡面你要被挨罵本來就是合理但是就是要殺手竟然全部都變成無極職我看到居然講說乾脆立法院全部都無極職算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3115.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3115.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3143.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3164.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝主席其實每次黨團協商的時候我就希望說大家之前有的論述在討論條文的時候其實我覺得都各自表述過了啦那黨團協商基本上就是一個交換意見跟立場的平台能夠達成共識是很好那沒有辦法達成共識就沒有辦法達成共識嘛要不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3169.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3188.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
針對有關原住民族的事務那台灣民眾黨黨團我們會很虛心的去聆聽我們原住民族朋友的心聲跟想法因為自己不是原住民有的時候不要表現得太 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3190.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3202.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
就自己不是就虛心一點多聽人家的聲音跟想法這個是我向來在面對原住民族事務的時候我以一貫的立場跟看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3205.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3231.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
針對這件事情的決定上一次在條文討論的時候我想某個程度上我的想法跟立場已經表達得非常清楚了沒有必要今天利用這個機會全部重新再講一次只不過是台灣民眾黨團八位委員因為我看今天要協商有共識基本上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3233.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3247.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
看起來難度非常的高啦趨近於不可能但我也不要先預設立場那我們八位委員會虛心的聆聽各界的聲音特別是我們原住民朋友的想法然後做我們最終的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3251.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3276.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
不過剛好利用協商的這個機會今天因為處理到第四條也是我之前在討論的時候關心的議題我有比較深的感觸請園民會的朋友稍微聽一下我比較深的感觸是什麼台灣民眾黨黨團不大只有八名委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3278.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3303.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這八名委員可能在原民會的長官眼中看起來微不足道所以對於我們黨團希望要求你們提供的東西你們大概是用最隨便的態度來應付我為什麼這樣講我第一次請黨團發文給你們原民會結果回我兩張新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3306.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3335.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我如果要拿新聞稿我需要透過黨團發文嗎?我不會Google嗎?我不會上原民會的網站嗎?我為了這個事情我在內政委員會正式提案跟你們要資料我上質詢台的時候我跟你們主委講得很清楚我跟你們所知你們發兩張新聞稿給我搞到我要到委員會去提案去要資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3339.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3363.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
讓我覺得很難過,我希望這件事不要再發生了。那天主委在備訓台應該在內政委員會諮詢,跟我說不會,以後絕對不會再發生了。結果,我們在討論第四條的時候,跟你要第四條相關的資料,我也感謝高金委員發文,知道我關心這個議題,有副本給我。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3364.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3392.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
剛我看到高金委員手上有厚厚一疊資料我看了覺得很奇怪啊怎麼你有我沒有他說我有副本給我我剛去了解是你們只回高金委員沒有回文給我沒有附件所以我覺得感慨很深啊我對原民的朋友在任何的議題上面我們向來是大力支持不懂的事情我就虛心的聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3394.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3419.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
虛心的學習希望在立法院行使職權的時候能夠做出對原民的朋友最好的決定但是在原民會的眼中台灣民眾黨可能只是一個小小的黨團沒有幾席立委是用這樣子的態度在面對我們讓我感觸非常非常的深但我也不會因此而改變我們本來應該有的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3423.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3440.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
在這件事情的決定上我們會很負責任的聽各界的意見做出我們最後投票的決斷但我只希望原民會的朋友在處理一些行政事務的時候請不要差別待遇的這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3442.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3461.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
請不要差別待遇得這麼嚴重我今天只是剛好利用協商的會場跟協商有關係的基礎資料我看到差別這麼大有感而發其他更深層的問題我不會在協商的現場講提醒主委下一次內政委員會他來備詢的時候我會過去質詢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3472.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3499.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
真的有黃國昌委員講的這種事嗎?我想可能有點誤會就是因為我們提供給高金委員的資料就是高金委員在要求的這個相關資料我們都給那副本給黃委員我們一般副本我們就沒有去做處理我們都會針對正版黃國昌委員這樣對你們的指控不要說他啦如果是我我也受不了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3501.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3523.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
哪有什麼兩個委員你說高金委員跟你要資料你給他完整的你給我的是兩張我也會跟你拍桌喔這個話要先講清楚至於黃委員之前要的資料因為我不太清楚他是要什麼資料是不是我們提供的時候這個要的這個資料不明確我們在那個會議在內政委會已經有給黃委員說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3530.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3552.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
因為剛剛那個吳委員有先舉手是還是說我知道我解釋一下因為現在莊委員也在對原民會有一點我還原一下我還原一下吼那的確我們在上一次在這邊協商完畢了之後的當天黃國昌委員有回到內政委員會裡面去質詢了我們的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3552.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3571.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他不是公文給你們他是直接請別民會主委提供資料給他我是公文給你們主委有在當天的質詢台上回應黃國昌主委說他要回去把所有的資料給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3572.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3591.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這是我看到的所以我必須要講清楚所以莊委員不要生氣我另外的行文給他是他給我的只是他把這個給我的副本再交給黃國昌委員但是事實上在內政委員會的質詢的時候黃國昌委員有質詢一項不是曾竹偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3592.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3617.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
曾主委嘴巴上已經答應他說會把推薦的這些族群委員你推薦幾位哪幾位推薦他甚至還說行政院有推薦所以他說能不能把這個資料全部提供出來這是我聽到完整的曾主委的回應為什麼今天黃國昌委員會那麼生氣就是這樣以上我來補充說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3620.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3642.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我先回應黃委員剛剛提到新聞稿這個部分黃委員當時要資料是要我們主委到帛琉擔任特使的行程但是因為外交部給我們建議是因為我們當時主委還在帛琉所以我們提他叫我們建議我們就是提供這個擔任特使的新聞稿這是第一個就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3649.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3667.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主要是因為高金委員他請問根本要資料的時候有把黃委員辦公室掛在副本這裡但是我們一般處理公文我們就直接針對正本所以回應了這個高金委員所以我們給高金委員資料都是高金委員要什麼我們大概都給了那另外一個關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3669.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3697.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
黃委員在內政委員會要求主委提供資料我們都提供我們會提供副主委這個再請你們跟黃國昌委員解釋一下然後或者是再把資料補齊給他那這樣好不好你們跟他解釋一下我想他也不是不講理啦就是你們雙方溝通不要誤會就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3699.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3699.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3717.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3744.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
協商那我也特別去看了一下這個原民會的組織法是什麼時候公布施行是在10年前103年那因此我也特別去看了當時整個立法的一個過程那我看到的就是說這個部分今天在場的兩位委員鄭天財委員高金委員都有提案版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3745.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3770.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那甚至是有很多的條文都是按照院版按照委員們的版本這樣子通過的所以我今天十年之後回到這個地方我也很想了解是什麼原因要去做這個第三條跟第四條的修法那我就就第三條第四條每一個修正重點我來做一個我的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3771.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3793.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
鄭天財委員他第三條他有三個修正重點那第一個部分就是提到主委要山平原輪流那其實對我來講我不能接受為什麼因為我就一向主張山平原是很錯誤的歷史的殖民遺序分類 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3794.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3811.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對我們中華民國這個民主憲政國家其實在我們的憲法上面有這樣的一個分類我就已經覺得很丟臉但是很可惜雖然上次的修憲委員有提但是沒有被這樣子認同但是我們會繼續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3815.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3818.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3830.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3853.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
三元平原到底為什麼要三平原輪流我是覺得說我們倒不如把利器放在真的我們就把這個三平原不當的歷史的分類我們就把它拿掉這是我第一個意見第二個部分修正重點是提到說這個組委要經過原住民的議員相長這個沒有了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3859.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3883.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
好 這個已經確定沒有了齁對 因為這個真的是我覺得真的是因為有違憲的疑慮嘛齁那我們就不談了齁那任期四年的部分我個人就是如果這個第二沒有所以任期四年也沒有了嗎喔 任期四年也沒有了所以只留下三平原 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3885.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3886.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3906.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3933.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
韓光所以一直以來如果說原民會能夠有所謂的政委然後兼任原民會主委那麼他們就可以去做一個調度統合對我們整個原住民事務的推動我相信是會大大的加分那只是說這個部分會不會也要連動去修行政院的組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3934.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3956.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個部分就留給大家討論但是基本上我的立場我是真的覺得說可以這個是我個人的一個意見關於第四條的部分我也要說明一下因為第四條我有特別去翻條文所以我也想聽聽看 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3959.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3980.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為當時103年公佈那當時我看到這個第四條現在的條文就是高金素梅委員的版本也就是院版然後鄭天財委員的版本其實是更前進的他希望這些族群委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3981.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4002.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
簡任十三指等比現在的版本十二指等還要更高經過了十年是什麼原因這個部分我就不予置評但是我想要去討論一下因為我很難過我把這個稱作是自我閹割因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4007.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4030.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
現在像我們跟客委會那些就不一樣他們是諮詢委員然後我不理解然後我最不理解的是說我們到底懂不懂原住民族族群委員真正的意涵委員會真正的意涵我們原住民族在台灣未來可能還超越16族這麼多的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4033.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4047.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
然後由一個單一族群的人擔任主委而且他還不是真正的所謂的一個委員制不是由各族群推派代表再由這些代表推舉主委副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4049.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4063.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那我們現在這樣的方式一個單一族群的族委他要怎麼樣去做全國原住民族族群的事務所以我們才會跟別人不一樣我們才會有所謂的有幾職的族群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4064.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4079.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我不理解為什麼要自我閹割一方面說我們要爭取像是禁法補償原住民的權益一方面我們又要去把我們原住民的服務能量把它毀滅掉這個要對歷史負責啊我真的不理解我們前面的人這麼辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4088.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4117.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
去弄出這樣的一個組織法那今天要自我閹割我是真的不理解那第二個我要特別談聘用委員他們是聘用委員我也去調了資料我看到他們的聘書啊因為我以前也不清楚到底族群委員是是怎麼選出來是在做哪些事他們的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4118.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4119.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4140.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4162.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
所以他們等於是在代替我們整個原住民族委員會來去做各地的一個地方事務工作內容非常的繁雜非常的辛苦那我是希望說主席有沒有可能下一次請族群委員來講話因為我也不知道到底他們覺得如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4164.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4172.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個我是覺得說這個部分我覺得不應該我其實上一次第一次聽到的時候我心裡很難過我覺得為什麼我們原住民族人做事為政府做事我們只能無幾值嗎我們不配領薪水嗎所以我覺得這個部分我真的完全不能理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4192.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4210.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那再來就是他是一個行政團隊的概念阿我上次也是嚇了一跳說綠油油所以呢我也特別去調了資料我們來看一下阿不是就是這樣嗎新竹市政府的勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4222.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4230.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
高鴻安去當了新竹市市長我們也看到所有的民眾黨的團隊也都進去當幕僚團隊阿不是嗎那邊有圖卡那馬英九時期的馬英九時期的族群委員我也特別去調阿阿不就是長這樣嗎所以我不太理解為什麼要這樣子就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4252.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4254.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
去自我毀滅自我閹割然後自我矮化自我汙名化我真的是沒有辦法理解所以我今天特別到這個地方來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4265.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4291.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那我相信我們的族群聘用委員他確實有他的存在但是我更重要的我要講的是當他是一個行政團隊的概念的時候我們應該著重的是他的工作態度他的遴選方法還有我們所謂的行政團隊的人才培育所以我覺得這個部分這一次我有感受到受侮辱 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4295.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4320.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我真的覺得嚴重受侮辱真的然後原住民自己這樣子我真的覺得不可思議自己的版本十年之後要這樣子自我矮化自我嚴格自我污名化真的我不理解所以請大家我們就三思謝謝我會再繼續發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4326.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4343.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
中招委首先對於第三條保留鄭天財委員所說的輪流擔任這樣的一個機制或者是其實應該更精確來說是翁曉琳鄭天財委員所提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4345.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4369.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個原住民委員會的組委由山原或平原的族群身份的輪流擔任其實這樣的一個想法很容易理解其實不要說是山原、平原在各式各樣的族群當中性別各式各樣的很清楚的一個可以分類的團體當中都會出現這樣的一個要求其實在台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4371.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4379.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
地方選舉的地方自治的傳統當中比如說桃園就有長期以來所謂的閩客 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4380.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4381.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4410.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4411.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4426.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4452.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我父親的身份是客家,那麼對於客家委員會也常常有要求南客跟北客要有均衡的對待,所以因此剛剛翁小林委員版跟鄭天財委員版有提到說如果原住民族當中在台灣的確有三原跟平原的分類,所以希望能夠均勻的照顧到單一族群不被 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4453.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4462.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4482.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4510.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那麼至於所謂的南克北克那也沒有建築於法律那至於輪流擔任這樣的說法呢會出現一個問題剛剛講到我們講性別的時候他以同一時間總數的比例那如果是輪流因為考慮到台灣目前的設置啊政務官部會首長並沒有明確的任期他可以做一個月也可以做一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4511.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4520.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
甚至有人是做了一輩子就是做到他不能再擔任為止那因此所謂的輪流擔任在法律上未來的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4521.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4548.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
還是有可能在時間上呈現出不能夠均勻的照顧到相對應的族群身上所以如果考量到這樣的機制設計呢輪流因為沒有明確任期嘛如果一任兩年或一任四年比如說現場我們在場有民眾黨的朋友聽說民眾黨他們的部分區委員呢是用兩年兩年來做區分如果同一個職缺兩年是誰另外兩年是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4549.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4571.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個就不是輪流了,這就是明確的把每個人的兒份明確的定出來那由於原住民主委員會的主委他並沒有任期是四年那如果我們這裡說必須輪流那輪流率是一個人兩年嗎?一個族群是兩年嗎?還是怎麼樣?還是說前面那個做一年後面那個就不能做超過一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4572.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4586.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這才公平啊!所以輪流的概念要達到公平的法律上所要求的均勻、對等的照顧是不容易做到的所以我建議合法大家思考一下因為原住民主委員會目前主委一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4587.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4606.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
政務副主委2人常務副主委1人總共是4位都是在檢任時事職等或筆到檢任時事職等或特任的這樣的一個高階的官員若以4位來講若真的要求到均等那或許同一時間與同一時間有4位的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4607.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4632.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那各兩位這樣的法律的一個規範的條文是比較容易落實的我這裡只是以政委員跟翁委員的思維若要均勻的對待山園跟平原不同的族群的都是原住民的朋友或許不是用輪流這樣的不確定的法律概念因為這樣的輪流這樣的概念你要怎麼樣在時間上達到一個公平對待的方式不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4633.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4635.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4654.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4663.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
行政院長在提名的時候如果有這樣的明確的規定那麼這或許也不妨是一個可以落實的法律規範我強調再強烈一次我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4667.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4687.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
有兩個應該公平對待的族群應該在制度上被合理的照顧這個我覺得是可支持的但是要怎麼在制度上設計到它可操作而且會達到可公平的效果應該要去慎重考慮所以我這裡請我們原提案人可以思考一下真的要做到公平、可操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4688.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4690.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4706.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4720.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
馬哈迪他的後來他們就有跟另外希望聯盟他們就講好了有人後面兩年輪流擔任但是內閣制的國家任期沒有一個固定的保障所以到底做多久是做完一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4721.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4740.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
就很難判斷啊前面一半跟後面一半到底誰先誰後就造成了一個毀棄承諾的問題所以這是提醒兩位提案委員可以思考一下我講的不是原則的問題我講的是如何去落實法律條文的設計可以貫徹你要求的一個平等對待的精神以上說明好 謝謝 那個國民黨這邊有沒有要表示什麼意見或民眾黨這邊有沒有要表示意見或五黨這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4754.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4780.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
高金素梅第一次發言我還記得第一次我們做提案說明的時候或者在這個地方我們有討論過我針對第三條的部分我是尊重也同意鄭天財委員的說法但是第四條剛剛聽到吳委員在這邊這麼樣哽咽的說話其實我都覺得我們自己身為是原住民族的族人 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4781.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4801.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們也感到替他難過為什麼因為他講得很激動但是事實上我們都是從部落裡面來的我們也都清楚知道這些族群代表他代表的是誰在部落參加什麼事情我先請大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4803.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4827.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個原住民族委員會的這個所謂的委員權責他聘用19到29個人那我們都知道有16個族群是有幾隻有給薪資的他的薪資大概一個月8萬多塊錢如果再加上交通費再加上一些他的出差費大概有10萬以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4829.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4856.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們想想這個10萬以上比部落的文建站要大學畢業的孩子要照顧我們的部落的族人他的工作簡直輕鬆很多啦我們都知道我們到婚喪喜慶裡面看到的都是族群委員在那邊講話那至於講什麼話部落裡面也都有錄影回來那我本來不覺得這件事情非常嚴重自從上一次黃國昌委員他其實非常認真 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4858.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4879.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
雖然這個原民會沒有提供給他完整的資料但是我在這一次請原民會給我提供的資料裡面我先讓大家知道雖然大家不管是莊瑞雄委員也好或吳立華委員也好拿出就是只要哪一個政黨他執政了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4880.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4881.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4902.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4911.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
審查名單只有一位,然後是誰推薦的,也是吳立華委員推薦的。賽德克組有三位審查名單,然後一位當選,誰推薦的,吳立華委員推薦的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4923.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4952.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
布農族有三位審查的名單推薦的人是誰?只有一位當選是吳立華委員推薦的周族有一位審查名單也是吳立華委員的特助吳立華推薦的卡諾卡納夫有五位審查名單他是自建的有一個自建的當選拉哈拉沃族有兩位審查名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4953.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4974.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
一位當選無力化委員的推薦少族有兩位審查名單然後呢一位當選成癮委員推薦的然後卑南族呢有七位審查名單他是民族議會推薦的塞夏族有三位審查名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4976.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4978.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4990.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4990.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
吳立華吳立華吳立華吳立華吳立華 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5015.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5037.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
有五位審查名單他以前的身份是成營服務處的處長是成營推薦的台灣族有兩位審查的名單他的曾經的身份是吳麗華競選副總幹事然後也是吳麗華委員推薦的撒基拉雅族有兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5038.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5041.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5054.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5079.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
現在這個被推薦的這些名單拿上來給我你知道嗎在內政委員會裡面質詢的時候我們主委沒有參加這樣子的一個推薦這個審查然後呢他居然不知道是誰但是在我們的整個審查過程當中主委本來就是要在會議當中所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5080.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5097.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個不是我自編出來的喔這全部從這個你們待會可以回去看一下那就是哪一位委員推薦的然後當選他相關的職務都在上面這是助理整理出來的然後我們來看一下這些人他應該要做些什麼事情那事實上呢19到29位有16位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5100.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5102.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5130.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5150.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
佈落就形成一個很大的衝突了為什麼是他不是我為什麼是他不是我然後最後大家就說是不是我們以後這個族群委員既然他要做佈落的事務他要跟佈落很相近而且他要推廣所有的文化我們是不是以佈落的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5151.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5153.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5169.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5183.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
對一個部落裡面來的年輕的相對的剝奪感其實是蠻重的那他要做什麼事情呢第一他要出席本會委員的會議然後對委員會議他要提出本會相關的議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5184.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5187.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5210.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5225.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
委員會議要重要的議案要先期審查例如我們可能要審這個土海法原民會還沒有送出來他們可能就要委員請問一下古仲副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5226.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5253.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
現在這些族群委員有參與這樣重要的會議嗎?就我了解這些跟法案有關係的都是這些無幾值沒有領薪水的專家、學者在參加族群委員幾乎是沒有參加的就我了解了再來第二個他要做什麼事情?原住民族的政策、制度、計劃還有方案的先期審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5255.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5271.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
有嗎?第三個,原住民族相關法規的先期審查。第四個,相關機關原住民族事務之先期協調還有聯繫。第五個,主持或出席專案小組的會議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5272.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5298.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
第六個,要主持或參與與族群相關的會議、調查、研究跟協調。第七個,參加族群遂時祭儀、民俗、文化以及傳統祭儀展演、慶典或活動。第八個,其他交代的事項。我們來看一下,我現在手上也整理了一下,沒有全部整理,大概整理了一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5300.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5327.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
呃 聘用委員叫誰我就不講了齁他參加公祭6個小時然後某個委員出差公祭12個小時某個委員參加公祭8個小時某個委員參加結婚歸零的典禮8個小時某個委員參加撿月香的公祭8個小時某個委員參加結婚典禮8個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5330.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5351.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
某個委員參加某個老夫人的公祭8個小時這我才只是整理了一點點所以我們會看到就是說這些族群委員每個月擬將近10萬塊的薪水然後他還有退職金然後呢他做的事情他的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5353.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5381.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我在整理的上面我並沒有看到他參加重要議案的先期審查或者是原住民族政策制度計畫的方案的先期審查還有相關法規的先期審查至少原民會現在沒有提供給我說他們有參加這樣子的會議然後最重要的是他們上下班不用打卡然後他們只要填他們去哪裡參加婚宴就可以去當然我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5381.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5395.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
原住民的選區非常的大,如果我要到一個部落去參加一個人的婚喪喜慶的確要花很長的時間,但是那不應該是我們族群委員該做的事情吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5396.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5412.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
委員要做的事情既然你講是跟文化跟族群跟部落裡面的連結那麼重要的話為什麼園民會我們現在在推自治法、屠海法的時候推了這麼久你們都還說部落都還有意見呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5413.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5428.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
如果我們這些族群委員都不把屠海法、自治法跟部落裡面的人討論清楚然後每一次去的時候還要原民會員親自去召開會議那我們要族群委員幹什麼呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5429.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5443.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
族群委員最重要的是他對部落的事物第一要很熟悉第二他對他的文化要很了解第三他要被這個族群給認同所以基本上應該族群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5445.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5446.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5467.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5485.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
在部落裡面的貢獻你還記得原民會113年我就讓你們要要把那個你們領選的辦法要修正嘛你們到現在一直都沒有修正啊所以這也是為什麼我這次提出來說既然我們的族群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5486.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5510.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
造成部落上相對年輕人被剝奪感那麼嚴重而且造成部落裡面內部的紛爭的話你為什麼不要把遴選制度再做得更好一點呢請問一下遴選制度我113年講講到現在你們改了沒有沒有反而更可怕更可怕的是你們給我的這一堆名單裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5511.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5522.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
難怪部落裡面的人紛紛一直在投訴不只投訴我這邊還投訴到不是原住民委員的辦公室所以黃國昌委員會拿到那麼多的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5523.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5547.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以我在講今天不是說我們在對個別的委員做一些攻擊我們是就事論事所以以上我希望大家能夠聽到我如果今天園民會你有意要表達你覺得我講的是正確的你們要來修改你們這些遴選制度辦法其實我們也想聽聽看啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5548.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5566.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
他是不是他就跟專家學者一樣呢他是榮譽職的呢他有來參加會議我們就給他交通費呢這樣子是不是相對的這個剝奪感會少一點呢是不是113年到現在你們沒有修改啊園民會裡面也是失職啊然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5567.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5592.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
原民會主委甚至於就在那個備詢台上很清楚講說只有一張紙在他桌上你回去調資料你回去調資料這個原民會主委在內政委員會裡面的說法你都可以去調資料當時我聽了黃國燙聽了我們都嚇了一大跳只有一張紙在你桌上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5593.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5617.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那你整個擬聘的過程你都沒有參加啊他啞口無言啊所以上一次不是您來啊古仲上一次是中副主委啊那到底這個工作是中副主委還是您在您在到底你們兩個是分派這個業務好不好謝謝你你你也可以記待會可以回答一下謝謝謝謝那楊委員好我鄭天才 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5631.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5638.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我要特別說明族群委員的制度不是103年民國85年行政院原住民委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5654.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5675.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
當初的法例的提案當初行政院的版本它是用組織規程所以也沒有什麼族群委員是民國85年之前我們的前輩蔡中涵立委的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5677.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5706.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
原民會的以前叫組織條例組織條例的提案就是列了族群委員然後103年是做什麼呢是因為所有的組織條例都要改為組織法所以我們提了條文我們才會提條文我們主要的是原民會當初是四個處 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5707.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5714.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。」案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5731.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5758.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
維持局的位局的地位但是沒辦法因為那時候已經限收在70個裡面當初的目的是這樣所以不是103年才開始的所以這個部分是民國85年我們的前輩這幾年呢看了我們的族群委員的在部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5760.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5786.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
在延民會我們的前輩也常常去延民會他對我們的族群委員跟以前真的是差之千里他也非常搖頭加上剛才高金委員所陳述的各族群的意見各部落的意見我也接到很多這樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5788.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5813.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以我上次在司法法制委員會審查的時候你們兩位沒有來了我那時候也說了我們要把它有幾值要變成無幾值我們也是很難過的但是不得不還不如把這些多少的錢一個月八萬多塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5817.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5843.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
整個族群委員的整個預算編列一年要一千多萬一千多萬的經費而原民會的職員的人數當初103年的時候我跟高金委員當初提了附帶結議最少要195人 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5846.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5852.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘇貞昌議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5873.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5898.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
一百一十四年度的預算已經加上這些基金單位預算還有文件站的經費一百四十五億多了所以我的建議就是把這些族群委員全部的經費改列為可以增加十六家乘以二最起碼三十幾個職員 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5902.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5917.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
現在人民會的職員非常的辛苦增加了這麼多的經費然後人力都沒有增加還維持在我們103年的時候所定的最低的額度當初希望能夠達到280人 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5923.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5952.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以這個部分從104年一直到現在預算成長這麼多但是人員職員那麼少危在的質詢人事行政總署就是沒有辦法增加所以我們就是希望族群委員既然已經沒有展現出當初立法的目的我們的前輩當初立法的目的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5953.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5956.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5973.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5994.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這是唯一8年沒有送來的其他的陳水扁總統馬英九總統都有送來啊所以連出委員會的都沒有啊連出委員會提案都沒有提啊這個組織委員就是要有這個責任顯然已經失去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5996.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6022.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們的鄉親說他怎麼代表竹委去參加婚喪喜慶竹群會員的工作是這些嗎真的是我們一般的鄉親就覺得很納悶所以這部分已經失去了所以這部分我們才會很忍痛的來提案所以這部分是有這樣的一個問題另外三眼跟平眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6023.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6052.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
因為已經實施這麼多年你要把它不分了難啊已經很難了無論你已經有經歷過上次你提地方制度法要把它不分結果遇到很多的難處很多的問題問題很多會影響很多所以我還是建議大家能夠支持這個本席還有高金素梅委員的提案以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6057.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6078.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
呃因為剛剛那個吳委員先舉手那可能麻煩讓吳委員先好那委員王在好謝謝因為我先及早澄清對下面的對話比較容易齁好呃我剛剛聽完之後呃我旁邊的委員也聽不下去就離開啊因為他們說留給原住民委員自己講話很難看 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6085.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6089.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
在這邊的對談竟然是曝露我一直很納悶為什麼要修不是只有我納悶很多人都納悶為什麼要修結果曝露了原來還是一己之私啊我來說明一下今天我前面聽到那一些話我覺得很不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6112.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6128.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我還是要再重申來 我就講 我就講黃國昌上次也給我造謠那個刊版的我再說明一次齁我們作為一個行政團隊大家都是立法委員我們都有推薦的資格但是我一個一個講第一個啦啦族 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6142.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6144.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我也要來問原民會是怎麼給資料的拉拉族是謝垂耀那個拉拉族的領袖他們開會把名單報給我我轉給你們怎麼就變成是我推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6168.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6172.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
上次爆發那個記者會我去問區長怎麼回事丟臉385個人的族群我真的要講嗎第一個有前科第二個有前科第三個有瑕疵最後一個說搞了老半天他家裡有事不能來報到這樣也累到我頭上 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6200.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6209.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
泰魯格族高維寧那個人是他們經過開會有他們的大佬有前任的委員基羅穆斯他們推舉出來的布農族的委員也是透過地方的議員他們推薦出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6230.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6236.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
更醜的是鄒族的委員是汪章良縣長親自寫推薦函的最後每個都變成是我我們拿出去給你們你們還要篩選啊你們有審查會怎麼會給的資料是我呢鄒司會是平他們這個是平原的平均議會他也都設在你身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6258.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6261.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
等一下 主席 怎麼一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6263.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6288.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我想知道什麼一回事各位報告因為高金文有跟我們調相關的資料那我們提供給高金文這些資料部落自己也可以給啦為什麼一定要透過某委員才能夠給呢如果按照他這麼講的話你們以前沒有推薦過嗎你們沒有推薦過吧我們一定要在這邊讓人看笑話嗎為什麼通通都是你們呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6291.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6312.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
如果部落真的有推薦人的話部落不會自己給原民會嗎一定要透過某個委員嗎憲法都有保障我們的主管我們的院長有任命權我們一定要管到這麼細嗎你們不就是有一個審查委員會嗎不就應該要把關嗎先不要生氣吳委員我們先釐清一下趙委員請他說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6313.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6315.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
主席我強烈要求請邀請這些族群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6342.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6364.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
來這個地方說明我都覺得應該他們願意那族群委員到底做什麼事我們怎麼知道呢天哪來你現在告訴我是哪一位哪一位啊哪一位啊部落說哪一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6367.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6375.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
阿是哪一位阿你不能這樣子阿隨便誣衊掉他們的人格搞不好他們很認真阿去翻資料好不好先還一下那個副主委有沒有辦法解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6383.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6407.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
跟各位委員報告有關拼右委員的這個我們臨選的這個大概方式呢就是比較多元有一些是透過民主議會那有一些是各界來推薦那沒有沒有沒有委員沒有我們還有幾個都是部落會議民主議會推薦的剛剛你剛剛委員你念到又念到濱南組織是民主議會通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6408.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6411.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我認為既然有審查的委員制都沒有這一些疑慮了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6440.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6449.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那要審查委員幹什麼每天在那邊毀線亂證亂七八糟對啦這些都不是高金委員想要所以他生氣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6453.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6464.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
本院委員黃仁等26人及委員高金素梅等26人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 〈一〉本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 〈一〉 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6476.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6493.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
部落房檢災會議出席的就有七位委員另外按照我們的人體研究計畫取得原住民族同意的會議在要點裡面有規範就是由各組的族群委參與這個會議然後由他們來決定同不同意管理原住民人體研究計畫的通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6494.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6496.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6523.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6546.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6548.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6571.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
謝謝主席對於原住民這邊的話我們是總召已經發言我們是想說不用發言但是呢剛才吳委員點名到我們所以我想說回應你一下所以我們是要修這個法就要促進族群公平的代表希望就是防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6572.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6596.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
政治決定就是某一些族群所以保障山地還有平地的原住民的平等權益所以使得我們族委產生過程就是要代表性還有讓我們的原住民山地也好、原地也好就代表族群的發言還有就是權利但是呢剛才你也只有有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6599.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6626.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
立由有是沒錯我們講的立由有是因為看到剛才我們高金委員就是講推薦的都是你的名字我們收到的我們收到的資料推薦的都是你的名字所以我們就覺得說我們如果一個市長一個市長一個總統一個行政院長是不是可以用自己的人可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6628.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6641.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就像行政院是不是所有的部會是不是民進黨的人啊我們對我我問你等一下再回答好不好所以呢我當然問啊因為我不瞭解說我們當市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6643.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6658.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我當立法委員我問的就是拿麥克風的人尊重好嗎我講話你尊重好嗎我當立法委員我跟你平起平坐我憑我的本事不是你給的所以呢我現在要聽我講講完就換你講我在講的時候你不要插嘴這個是禮貌連禮貌都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6665.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6667.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6685.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6704.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
對,你比例說這個是因為他市長他推薦的人在他的市府裡面很多都是民眾黨的他有權力他覺得這個能力有是我能用的人我就推薦嘛對不對,行政院也是一樣嘛我能用的人我就去推薦嘛今天還有人講說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6706.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6708.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6723.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6751.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
不同的部落的人不同族群的人當委員我們是認同的我們是覺得很好但是你這樣比例但是我又看到所有都是你的推薦所以我才覺得說你這樣子的比例的話我就覺得說你澄清你不能說市長本來就有這個權利嘛行政院長就有這個權利嘛當然是用自己的黨優先選擇嘛所以說我們希望所以希望的是我們所有的委 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6752.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6768.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
委員現在我們客家委員的委員會的委員也沒有幾職的嘛所以我們現在從頭到尾我們聽的是我們不否認一直以來我們族群委員有薪水但是他的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6769.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6783.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
要到位,這樣子對我們的族群比較有幫助,對他的職責也有貢獻。我覺得我聽起來是希望的是這樣,你們也希望這樣子嘛,對不對?他們也希望這樣子,所以不要說用了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6785.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6787.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
沒有選擇就像現在我們新住民的委員會還有我們移民署的委員會所有的推薦各個單位透過民間團體各個委員去推薦我們內政部長要去一一的去甄選去選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6806.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6831.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
不是每個人推薦都有喔所以我們希望的是說大家就是要用的人每一個部落都有人才希望說這個委員會這些人他是貢獻有這個能力的我們希望的是這樣所以我聽起來是這樣我們希望說你不用拿這個比例來去用這樣的話我覺得是有落差啦所以不是說因為我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6832.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6842.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
別人你剛才講的是他們提供的資料有誤差有可能但是我們看到的是這樣啊看到給我們的就是這樣的名單嘛所以我們覺得是說你又比例說這樣所以我覺得說應該你是市長了所以你推薦都上所以你覺得能用的都是你推薦的所以我覺得你比例就等於說你當市長這樣子的推薦的權利了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6857.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6862.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6879.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6879.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6895.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6912.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
委員但是都是無己職其實是沒有必要要聘成是專任專任職那麼我們這邊當然也肯定就是族群委員那麼他們代表各族群也可能也對於這個各族群也 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6912.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6913.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6936.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6937.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6960.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6974.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
有這個必要性。那麼再說就是以現階段我們看到整個族群委員他臨聘制度上確實也出了很大的問題不論是從推薦的程序資格的審查專業能力還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6976.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6998.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
在種種方面以及它的這個代表性其實都沒有一個適當的規範這個規範就是太寬鬆太粗糙可能只是需要具備原住民的身份然後有一些什麼所謂的專門智能條件熱心公益有生育卓著這樣子就可以來擔任原住民委員會的委員代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7000.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7020.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那麼我認為說從現階段來看他確實領選制度上面不盡合理再加上我們如果再跟其他的委員會相比較來說確實是沒有必要用有幾職聘任的方式來領選這批委員所以我建議就是說在整個行政機關的各個機關的標準應該是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7022.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7030.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
既然客家委員會的這裡的委員都是採無己職所以原住民委員會的這個族群委員其實也應該要採無己職是合理的謝謝那陳英委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7042.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7059.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
有關於第三條的部分我就簡單補充啦就是有關於這個主任委員那山園跟平原輪流擔任的部分那我就提出一些疑慮因為我想很多來參與協商的委員還有立法院很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7060.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7064.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘋果委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7075.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7077.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7095.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7109.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
裡面其實都有就是大致上是可能是平原或山原但是其中有少數像泰雅族也是一樣大部分是山原但是他們在南庄的泰雅族卻是平地原住民所以今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7110.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7137.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我覺得其實我蠻尊敬佩服鄭天財委員是因為在我們所有原住民的立委當中他是法學素養最深厚的一位那每一次他的這個他的論述還有他的修法一定有他的這個深層的意義未必是大家從這個文字上看得出來所以我第一個要提醒就是這個山園跟平原 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7137.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7163.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
如果今天我們按照這個修法成功這個版本修法成功之後那麼未來呢那如果說好現在曾志勇委員做完了下次我們就是換了這個這個台東的這個平地原住民但是是排灣族的然後之後做完之後又輪回去山原又是排灣族然後再回來然後又是排灣族又是平原 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7164.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7186.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們這樣也是合乎我們法規的這些修法的這個要求嘛 對不對但是可能大家就會覺得說這個族群上是不是可以平衡一下所以我覺得就是這樣子的修法它還是有問題嘛因為要回歸擔任原民會的主任委員其實跟各部會首長一樣最重要的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7187.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7187.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
本院委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7212.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7217.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘇貞昌委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7241.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7267.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
看到黃國昌委員這麼溫柔這麼心平氣和的講話然後我也很感動因為他說他自己不是原住民他就覺得他要多聆聽那我希望他再多聆聽可是可惜他走了啦我也希望說他能夠再聽到我講這段話那我希望呢他在多聆聽的同時也不要偏聽那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7269.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7290.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為他講完對講完就走了平常喔有時候我在議場我也想走過去跟他聊兩句好一些因為最近我們也討論禁法補償嘛還有很多原住民的議題但是因為曾經我親眼目睹我們有女同事走去前面也是很客氣跟他講幾句話忽然他就咆哮起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7291.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7309.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以我就很怕說我也是想去跟他溝通幾句但是我又很怕他一咆哮起來口水也是會亂噴所以他今天講我就斗膽在這裡就是也回應一下洪國昌委員在 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7309.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7336.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
指詢的時候提到的就是祖學委員的名單一片綠油油這件事情甚至呢在他的powerpoint上面還點名寫上了我的名字說某人是我的服務處的這個處長之類的那我想我今天也藉著這個機會我們就這個問題來好好討論一下首先呢我要講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7338.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7361.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
剛剛跟原民會我第一次看到這個資料就是就這一份啦就是各組啊然後他的那個族群委員候選人吧然後有多少的他的經歷然後推薦人是誰我要跟原民會講你們這份資料其實真的是不精確還真是不精確 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7362.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7388.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
因為我剛剛看到一個很好笑的事情我覺得吳麗華委員你也真倒楣喔賽夏族賽夏族這個他們有民族議會這幾個候選人有民族議會推薦還有之前的這個朱薰委員推薦然後但是我看那個這次聘用的是平地原住民嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7390.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7418.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
然後裡面也有當然提到我推薦的啦當然我就是說這裡面其中一兩個我有推薦沒錯但是呢這個有一些大家可能到處拜託啊那個名單到處飛可能我不知道有沒有去哪個委員那邊可能也去了伍麗華那邊可能也來了我這邊但是我們接到陳情禮貌上一定都就是還要送出去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7418.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7427.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
好,這個是人之常情啊,但是我想,就是我就剛剛看到那個我就覺得很好,像是吳立法你真倒楣啊,就全部都摔在你頭上齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7429.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7457.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
然後再來我要講一下這個其實能力的問題以前我還真是不知道啦因為以前長期這個國民黨執政的年代呢我那天我先講我自己好了因為我被黃國昌委員點名那麼他點出說有其中有一位擔任過我服務處的處長那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7459.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7486.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
黃國昌委員的這個質詢內容也印證了一件事他不是原住民他真的還不了解這其中的一些細節我要講的是第一個這個那一位被他點名的族群委員呢是族委跟我借將那還真是因為他的經歷是怎麼樣我想一個大家去仔細聽好不好講一下一個族群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7489.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7510.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
他擔任過他在原民會待過三年在縣政府待過九年他也擔任過地方各級民意代表一直到中央從地方議員乃至於審議員還有立法委員的助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7510.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7530.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我想所有的這個主委需要幫忙他當主委那借用借用這一位族群委員的精力我想這個是人之常情因為人才我也是很捨不得但是主委要借降那我就借給他嘛好那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7532.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7557.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
再來就是說我想這些經歷應該是黃國昌委員他沒有好好去掌握的所以他才會講出什麼仇庸啊什麼綠油油啊然後到底到底這個綠油油我倒是要看一下那個我們看一下那個馬英九執政的那個年代好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7558.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7587.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
不好意思不好意思那個不好意思陳議員那個因為齁現在有一個比較麻煩的事情就是因為麥委員他說他要離開不是啊我要不是你們這樣打斷我他要離開是他的是今天已經排欸不是你先聽我講完嘛你先聽我講完齁我不是說質疑你不能講我是說因為我們今天是協調嘛齁那因為麥委員離開變成是三黨變成少一個那依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7588.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7607.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
先以前的因為依照這個協商因為依照協商之前只要三黨有一個不出席的話那變成是這個協商會議就是不成立了不是那不然這樣好不好你就讓我讓我講完那麻煩你當就是多做幾分鐘我就講因為我要講重點就被打斷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7610.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7635.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我只是跟你提醒一下有這個狀況因為他們如果一離開少一個黨變成是我們今天就不成立了我只是要提醒這件事並不是要不讓你講主席決定我還是把我的意見講完稍微等一下我們讓陳瑜委員說完謝謝麥委員剛剛吳立華委員有秀出這一張我想我直接把它打在PowerPoint上比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7636.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7656.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那我要這個當然這個一秀出來就藍滋滋嘛那剛剛還有秀的是那個新竹市那邊的嘛啊那個叫什麼白滄滄啊對不對都是一樣都是一樣啊都是一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7661.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7673.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
不是 你們不要插嘴嘛這樣人家有禮貌你自己卻沒禮貌很奇怪啊你刮別人鬍子之前你先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨麻煩你閉嘴好 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7675.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7679.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7697.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7715.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
哎呀 你們就叫黃國昌委員講嘛對啦 因為 因為齁 我覺得 你要講 你要講 你要講就自己講女生講話 男生擔擔你要講就自己講 不用 不用在這裡好像躲在後面 然後叫別人出頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7718.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7720.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7736.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7740.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
鄭天財委員的助理一樣擔任過鄭天財委員助理又不是人家穿著你的背心難怪難道他是他是冒牌的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7764.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7766.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7795.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7799.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我對他一點意見都沒有你們全部過去那麼多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7801.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7817.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那麼多人擔任到底是誰推薦的也有口文及委員的那本來就就事論事你們可以點名為什麼我們就不能點名很奇怪耶不是我們現在已經離題了哪有什麼離題就在這邊講啦這兩條有沒有共識是誰先帶頭離題的誰先離題的沒有共識的話就送院長誰先離題的沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7827.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7830.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7850.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7857.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7873.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7877.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7897.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7900.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提案。」本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7926.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7930.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7941.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7955.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
歐委員不一定啦,我們就按照程序啦,那看主委你看怎麼樣?中委員你要擇期的話也必須其他兩黨都同意嘛,那現在就是中委員有這樣的提案,不知道民眾黨跟國民黨這邊是否同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7957.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7986.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
中委員他們不同意,因為要他們兩邊同意,那就看大家的意思。我再補充一件事,不好意思,重要資訊,潘真祥前代表他是您的支持者,我也曾經推薦過他,我們都有這種大度,在民進黨執政的時代,我推薦他,但是他拒絕,因為他說民進黨執政他不要做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7988.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8015.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
是這樣子的 有這種事你可以去問他啊這個跟條文沒有直接關係啦不是啊 但是他們提這個法案的時候他們提這個法案的時候那就看照片嘛 大家看那個名單跟照片嘛那名單跟照片就知道嘛不是 我剛講那個是很中性的啦我知道所謂的擇旗也沒有所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8016.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8043.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我講一下所謂的擇期沒有誰同不同意的問題啦就是送給院長院長有可能交付你再重新再協商嘛那不一定啊那這樣齁中委員那這樣我們是不是說大家因為今天的討論是沒有共識嘛那大家也都我們都沒有自指誰讓大家充分表達也已經兩個多小時了那是不是說因為各黨團的意見是不一致的啦那我們就到我們這邊一直插謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8046.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8073.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
沒有就是到我這邊一直斷掉一直插話很煩那因為我們今天發言的內容都有錄音錄影列入記錄啦那我們還是需要繼續溝通取得共識那是不是說我們就依據立法院執行法第12章的規定辦理好不好對就是讓院長去召開好不好好那就今天這樣不好意思啦因為兩個半小時了大家沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8075.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8078.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對對對好好好那謝謝各位那就散會謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
16237 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16237 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024110449 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-06T13:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-06T15:44:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |