| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d4b47bc6500708d15ef3840653eac67e3083084566cc2bdb4b6f2a0274e89183a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
12448 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:32 - 11:58:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1880.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1890.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會出席委員10人與主法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1892.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1910.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年10月30日星期三上午9時至10時58分地點紅樓山林會議室出席委員陳永康等9人夜席委員、代會員等此事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1911.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1923.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
請駕委員林毅君、黃仁﹑面席人員、僑務委員會委員長許家青及所屬人員﹑主席王昭吉委員定語。報告是,想依宣讀上次會議議事錄,決定確定。2. |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1923.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1939.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
邀請僑務委員會委員長許家青報告業務概況﹑並備質詢。僑務委員會委員長許家青報告﹑委員羅敏林等10人質詢,均由僑務委員會委員長許家青即席答覆。決定,已登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢,報告及詢答結束。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1940.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1961.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
二委員所提口頭及書面質詢為其答覆或要求提供資資訊請侨務委員會與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複支本會委員應指定期限者從其鎖定三委員．易軍、陳永康、黃仁、吳春成、楊瓊英及代會員等六人所提書面質詢．入記錄刊登公報選讀完畢議事錄待會確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1970.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1984.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
報告事項：邀請國家安全局局長．國防部部長報告．北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改選．對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢介紹在場的委員羅美玲委員介紹與會的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1998.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2018.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
國家安全局局長蔡明彥國防部部長因為副總統府參加專案會議不可出席﹚所以由副部長博鴻輝先生帶領所以國防部副部長博鴻輝副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2029.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2049.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
全民防衛動員署署長 白潔榮政戰作戰局局長 陳玉玲軍備局局長 林文祥主計局局長 謝祺賢戰略規劃司司長 黃文啟 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2059.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2081.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
支援規劃師師長鄧克雄法律事務師師長沈世偉整合評估師副師長趙建國政務辦公室副主任南靜亭 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2086.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2104.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智情報參謀次長是次長謝日生作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文興後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2115.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2131.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩年訓練參謀次長是次長張俊志陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長王德陽 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2149.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2152.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長劉勛興支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁電訊發展市執行長許益興 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2179.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2203.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
國家中山科學研究院院長李士強本日會議邀請國安局及國防部報告．北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改選．對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響．並備質詢。． |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2205.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2209.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
首先先請國安局蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2222.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2240.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好,謝謝主席。主席、各位委員先進、各位女士先生,大家好。那非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行專題報告。那緊就北韓援兵、俄羅斯兩韓身高對立以及日本眾議院改選等等的情勢,向各位委員先進報告如此。第一大部分是有關於情勢分析。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2241.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2262.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
①北韓兵援俄國牽動歐亞安全的聯動性②北韓的行動引發了國際的譴責。從今年10月開始,俄國開始運送大約有1萬名的北韓士兵到俄國的遠東地區來接受適應的訓練。目前已經有8000名的北韓士兵抵達俄國的庫斯克州。美國跟南韓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2263.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2281.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
2加2會議已經強烈的對於北韓的行為展開譴責那另外在北約、歐盟、烏克蘭也提出嚴重的警告認為北韓的參戰會導致俄烏戰爭的升級歐亞安全密不可分二、俄國跟北韓深化戰略同盟的合作關係北韓軍援跟兵援俄國 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2282.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2304.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
換取俄國來提供晶圓還有火箭的技術．那雙方也在今年的6月簽署了全面戰略夥伴關係的條約那北韓的外長更公開的宣誓將會持續的來支持俄國直到戰爭勝利為止並且明確的把俄國放在北韓對外關係的最重要位置顯示北韓有意來降低對於中共的一個依賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2305.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2329.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二,兩韓升高對立,增添朝鮮半島的變數。括弧一,北韓加大對外的敵對的作為。北韓在上個月進行修憲,把南韓列為是北韓的敵對國家,同時也炸毀了連接兩韓的鐵公路的系統。另外,北韓在10月31日再度的試射洲際彈道飛彈,刻意地在美國大選之前展現北韓的核導國家地位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2331.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2349.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
南韓跟美日歐合作應處北韓的挑戰美國、南韓跟日本已經召開三方國安跟外交首長的會議在會議當中三方共同來譴責北韓的挑釁美國重申對於日本還有南韓的延伸性嚇阻的安全承諾同時美日韓也跟法國、英國 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2350.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2359.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
德國、意大利、荷蘭、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等等11個國家成立了多國監測小組,持續地來監督各國是不是有確實地來執行對於北韓的各項經濟制裁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2362.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2388.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
三、日本眾議院改選衝擊日本政局的後續發展。關乎一、自共聯盟喪失了穩定執政的一個基礎。日本在10月27號舉行眾議院的改選,選出465席的眾議員。其中自民黨跟公民黨的執政聯盟各獲得了191席跟24席,總共有215個席次,但這215個席次並沒有過整個眾議院半數也就是233席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2389.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2399.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
另外最大戰略黨立憲民主黨獲得了148席日本衛星會獲得38席以及國民民主黨獲得了28席我們可以看到在選舉之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2401.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2419.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
日本的在野黨席次大幅增加,執政聯盟跟在野黨的實力差距也逐漸縮小。瓜胡二,抄野激烈的角力來爭取執政的機會,目前日本的政壇並沒有任何的單一政黨可以獲得到眾議院過半的席次,現任首相石破茂已經表示願意跟其他政黨展開合作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2421.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2450.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
最大在野黨立憲民主黨也希望能夠透過跟其他政黨的合作爭取支持來推動可能的政黨輪替那日本眾議院已經規劃在這個月的11號到14號來召開特別國會選出新的首相那在整個過程當中可以看到的是各個在野的小黨已經變成了志工執政聯盟以及最大的在野黨立憲民主黨希望來爭取合作對象那可見未來在日本的政局發展過程當中這些關鍵的小黨可以扮演非常重要的一個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2451.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2473.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第二大部分是有關於影響評估一、北韓所掀起的一個兩韓的一個對立那聯動到的有各個大國之間彼此的戰略角力那北韓積極地來提升跟俄國實質的安全合作關係並且加大跟南韓的對立、軍事挑釁他的目的除了要來凝聚北韓自己內部的向心力以外也希望能夠來累積跟美國的新政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2474.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2495.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
後續談判的籌碼：主要的目的也是希望能夠透過這些的接觸來促使美國解除對北韓的經濟制裁以及停止美韓的軍演同時來承認北韓擁有核武的一個地位那在過程當中我們可以看到美國、南韓也開始協同日本、澳洲跟其他的歐洲國家來加強推動援烏、抗俄 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2496.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2496.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第2日本渴望維持友台路線 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2511.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2530.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
日本眾議院的選舉之後出現嘲笑野大的一個局面那未來不論是哪一個政黨來重組內閣為了爭取民眾的信任穩定執政的基礎應該會把重點聚焦在內政的事務整體的外交跟安保的政策可能會延續既有的基本的一個方針在對台政策的部分自民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2531.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2560.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
立憲民主黨、日本維新會等等的政黨在選舉過程當中分別提出應該要來推進跟我國各個階層領域的實務的合作那同時也去強調台海核穩跟日本關係具有高度的關聯性那也不容許中共來試圖用武力片面改變台海的現狀所以從剛剛所提到日本各個主要政黨對台政策立場我們可以看到日本未來應該還是會持續的關注台海的情勢推動台日之間雙方的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2560.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2581.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第三,台海的核穩對於印太安全越來越重要。北韓在涉入俄烏戰事以及朝鮮半島的對立聲傲之後,再加上中共擴張對其他國家海洋的威脅,都導致了我們的印太地區安全環境更形得嚴峻、更複雜。在過程當中,台海和平穩定越顯重要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2582.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2608.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
歐洲、加拿大以及日本、韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭等等的印太國家已經多次公開的表達對於維持台海和平穩定的一個重視那在今年以來已經有9個國家派遣他們的軍艦執行大約有15次通過台海的任務突顯出國際社會更加重視台海情勢的一個發展第三大部分結語朝鮮半島的情勢升溫跟亞歐安全的聯動已經增添了印太地區的不確定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2609.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2635.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
面對安全環境的快速變動本局會持續的來精進戰略預警情資的收研並且來強化跟國際友盟的對話以及情報交流以便來掌握最新的情勢發展即時來提供政府各單位作為決策參考以上報告進行大院各位委員為您指教謝謝大家那我們先確認議事錄我補充介紹一下林柱英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2640.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2652.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
請問在場委員對上一次的會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?那如果沒有的話我們就是議事錄確定接著我們請國防部博副部長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2672.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2696.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席、各位委員先進。近期北韓派兵協助俄羅斯作戰、朝鮮半島緊張的關係與日本眾議院改選等重大事件廣受國際的矚目,亦牽動區域安全情勢的變化。此就大院指導完成嚴希如厚。第一,近期的重要事件的概述,北韓派兵加入 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2697.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2712.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
俄烏戰爭．北約秘書長呂特上週．證實朝鮮已派部隊赴俄國參戰．經路透社及南韓媒體報導．北韓士兵找俄羅斯的軍服參戰． |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2713.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2735.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
判北韓為履行俄朝新簽訂的全面戰略夥伴關係條約一國應入侵而進入戰爭狀態另一國應提供軍事援助之規定同時北韓亦可藉此獲得俄國提供的糧食、武器、科技資源與實戰經驗等的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2736.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2762.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第二,南北韓的衝突方面．北韓外交部指控南海派遣無人機前往檳榔．散發煽動性的謠言和垃圾內容的傳單．將此行為描述為可能導致武裝衝突．發生戰爭的挑釁行為．並炸毀兩韓合作計劃所建的金義縣與東海縣鐵路第三,日本眾議院改選的結果． |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2763.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2784.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
日本第50屆的眾議院選舉上週舉行了投開票自民黨與國民黨組成的執政聯盟未能取得過半席次國會形成嘲笑也大的局面然而日向石破茂仍可能藉由爭取眾議院其他在野黨的支持持續的執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2786.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2806.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第二部分對區域安全的影響第一中共運用安全環境變化增加國際影響力北韓炸毀鐵路後中共及呼籲兩國停止挑釁的行動並避免評論北韓派兵至俄羅斯之舉顯示中共意圖以推動全球安全倡議之框架 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2807.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2831.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
形塑中國特色的國際安全架構運用當前全球衝突不斷的國際局勢塑造中共調停爭議的形象來增加國際的影響力第二美國維持印太戰略與穩定去情勢美國國防部針對北韓加入俄烏戰爭表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2832.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2860.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不對烏克蘭運用美制的武器實施下以限制．為人未同意深入打擊俄國．顯示美國避免升高區域衝突．防止俄烏戰爭以哈衝突等情勢．分散美國處理印太安全議題的能力．美國在印太仍將持續維持有謀以及遏制中共的軍事擴張． |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2862.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2877.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第3日本區域的政策走向將受國內的政局的掣肘日向石破茂原對外表達支持建立亞洲版的北約未來在外交與安保的政策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2877.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2881.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
第4南北韓避免升高緊張局勢並與美日歐合作應處．北韓近期對南韓挑釁的行為．意圖藉此增加與美談判的籌碼．南韓為強烈反應其能降低北韓 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2908.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2918.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
話語權,穩定區域安全形勢,令與11國成立多國監測的小組,持續監督與各國是否確實執行對北韓之各項的制裁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2919.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2937.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
就區域環境的變化對臺的影響方面,第一,臺灣的戰略地位不受影響。歐盟與北約在對應俄烏戰爭之際,北約自2022年起連續三年與峰會聲明,維持臺海和平與穩定,自為重要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2938.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2960.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
是國際社會安全與環隆不可缺少的要素。南韓與美國召開安全協商會議之聯合聲明,亦強調台海和平穩定的重要性,顯示國際社會不樂見中共成為區域的霸權,重視台灣抗衡中共的第一線戰略地位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2961.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2987.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第二,臺日關係仍會穩定地成長。現任執政黨、自民黨的長期友臺、眾議院第二大黨黨魁也田家彥於今年8月來參加凱德格蘭大道的論壇中,再次地強調臺日共享民主價值在經濟上具有高度互補性。雖然執政聯盟未取得過半的席次,但兩國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2989.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3008.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
情誼、深厚、台日關係將持續穩定的友好。中共對我脅迫以認知作戰和灰色地帶的洗腦為主中共對台受到國內外因素的驅動內部包括政權的穩定、民族主義以及經濟發展壓力等促成中共採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3010.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3025.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
強硬的立場外交方面美中競爭加劇區域所有的地緣政治的變化亦為中共帶來新的挑戰現階段中共將持續採認知作戰及軍事施壓對台灰色地帶洗腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3027.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3049.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
為因應日益快速變動的戰略環境．本部將綿密掌握區域安全情勢的發展．同時強化自我防衛的能力．與勇盟加強合作共同對應．以確保國家安全．並為區域穩定盡一份心力以上報告 敬請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3055.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3074.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
現在開始詢答本會委員時駕2分鐘﹚非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形再進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3085.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3091.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
蔡局長謝謝主席、各位委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3093.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3093.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3123.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3148.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
可是跟俄羅斯有簽署軍事互助協議的不單只有北韓,包含像白俄羅斯、伊朗跟中國都有簽訂在俄羅斯兵力嚴重短缺的狀況之下之前俄羅斯的媒體也曾經點名要求這幾個國家對俄羅斯提供更進一步的協助我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3149.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3149.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3163.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3179.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我想這次北韓參與俄烏戰場那主要原因有北韓的一些戰略的盤算希望透過這樣的一個參戰來得到俄國更多方面的一個支持包括經濟的援助以及火箭技術的提供那可以了解委的關切就是擔心在北韓參戰之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3181.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3197.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那會不會有更多其他俄國的友盟來加入戰局那變成戰事會不斷的擴大變成一種區域的比較廣泛的一個戰事或是升溫的一個跡象那不過跟委員說明的是在現階段來講那因為在俄烏的戰場上那 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3200.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3218.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
吳克蘭跟俄國都開始進入一種所謂的戰時經濟的狀態希望能夠來盡量的來支撐戰局那也在評估是不是在美國大選之後會有一些新的國際運輸的變化來影響整個俄烏戰局的後續發展那現階段看起來還沒有看到有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3219.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3222.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
北韓是一個很特殊的案例因為他長期以來就遭受到西方國家的經濟制裁所以他在權衡得失之後才會在這個時間點來加入俄烏的戰局 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3239.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3267.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以我們國人所擔心的比如說我們也很擔心中國來參戰嘛因為這樣子的話其實可以取得一個實戰的這個經驗我想國人應該也是非常擔心當然我剛才看到國防部也好或者是在國安局也好有提到就其實中國對這個部分基本上他是不想要去做評論也希望能夠保持一個低調的態度那當然我也看過一些報導就說中國可能也希望在這一局裡面能夠扮演一個類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3268.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3283.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
合適牢的一個角色提升他在國際上的這個地位所以也就是說目前如果以局長您所看法就是說其實我們所擔心中國會不會參戰其實到目前為止是沒有看到任何的跡象對沒有這樣的跡象OK好了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3285.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3286.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
日本在前陣子的眾議院改選當中自民黨跟公民黨執政聯盟沒有辦法取得過半的席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3301.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3322.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
不管怎麼樣就算說11月11號舉辦這個國會舉辦這個首相這個選舉時破帽如果真的順利連任的話我想這個日本還是會出現一些不同的一些走向可能還是會出現新的一個證據所以我們比較擔心就是說當然我也看到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3323.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3345.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
國安局跟國防部的這個報告就是說日本友台的態度基本上是這基調是不變的可是問題是畢竟自民黨過去友台這個方向會不會因為這個潮小野大會面臨不同的局面雖然是友台可是台日之間的關係會不會有一些微妙的這個變化會不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3349.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3371.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
對,就台日關係的發展來講,那剛剛委員也提到我們在口頭報告的時候已經有說明因為主要的政黨包括自民黨以及主要的在野黨包括立憲民主黨以及主要的另外一個重要的在野黨包括日本維新會他們在選舉過程當中對於台日關係都有一些討論跟論述那基本的主軸都還是在於台日安全有緊密的聯動性 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3372.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3390.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那在這樣的一個基調之下那也許日本的政局因為政黨聯合內閣的組合會有一些不同的新的政黨加入這個團隊但是你去仔細的檢視各個政黨基本的立場還有基調大概對於維持跟台灣的關係都有一個非常長期的一個相關的一個主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3391.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3419.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為之前像這個他們的這個國家安保戰略裡面有第一次就來定義台日這個關係就是說台灣是日本極重要的友人那對於中國他的定義是日本前所未有之最大戰略挑戰挑戰是一個比較客氣的一個說法那當然像這個這個他這個定義是前陣子才做這個定義會不會因為我們也想說這個因為新政局的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3420.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3448.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這個產生這個前面所謂的台日之間的關係會不會有所改變那當然我想的改變並不是說他有台這個態度改變而是說會不會說有些合作啊步調會放緩像過去的話我們會覺得說我們之間的關係是非常的close像這會不會因為有些在野黨擔心中國的態度跟台灣之間的關係是有稍微疏離本席想要提的是這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3450.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3478.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
對基本上去檢視日本政壇的各個政黨的基本立場剛有提到了在對台政策的部分是希望加強跟台灣在各個領域的合作能夠進一步的來深化那也去重視到台海安全可能對於日本自身安全產生的一個影響所以對於台海問題非常的關注這是為什麼日本在很多包括雙邊或多邊的這種安全或高層會談當中都持續的去表述對於台海核穩的重視那這大概是第一部分跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3479.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3493.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那對於這些日本政黨對於中國的關係會不會影響台日的關係目前看起來倒不至於因為在對中國的關係來看日本是希望能夠穩定穩定跟中國的關係而不是說去加強所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3494.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3515.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
戰略面或其他領域更深入的合作他們是在做一種戰略的管理所以我們可以預期也許在10天之後的APEC峰會會有中日元首的一個互動那我們所理解到的是討論的議題大概都還是聚焦在他們自己雙邊的議題包括日本的公民在中國大陸的人身安全的問題以及日本的相關的水產進口的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3516.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3531.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以我們看到的這種中日議題主要都還是在這種比較技術面或經貿面的一個討論沒有涉及到他們更深入在安保或戰略面的一個合作那假如有那種情形當然會影響到台日關係但目前來看並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3534.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3548.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
石破茂一直有提到一個構想就是亞洲版北約那亞洲版北約說實在我們所看到就是說美國也好印度也好基本上他們是不支持的美國甚至還說為時過早印太還沒有準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3548.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3570.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
甚至我們看到日本的官員態度也是非常的保守他說還需要中長期的規劃應該來先強化美日同盟當然時迫茂他會提亞洲版北約就是因為他認為說近日烏克蘭就是明日東亞他會有這個想法就希望說我們亞洲也必須要有一個軍事防衛的一個聯盟可是看起來這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3571.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3593.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
不可行,我們是覺得種種的客觀的因素,比如說不管是在亞洲地方有主權的爭議或地緣條件等等,好像這個亞洲版北約,我在想要推行真的不太容易,可是基於這個,我們畢竟還是需要,基本上我們以台灣來講的話,我們還是需要有一個類似亞洲的軍事防衛的聯盟, |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3596.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3626.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
局長你怎麼看如果說我們要怎麼來運用這防衛合作的這個架構目前現有的對那就石破首相他確實有提出亞洲版北約的一個構想那也正如委員所提到的因為這個構想還沒有一些細部的規劃所以自民黨內部也成立一個專責的小組希望針對日本對外的安保政策能夠再有一個比較深入跟全面的一個討論那就亞洲版北約後續的發展可能主要的重點還是在於日本怎麼樣來加強跟美國在這一方面強化合作的磋商 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3626.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3649.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
讓美日同盟加N,讓美日同盟可以變成一個加N的機制,有更多的國家來加入相關的安保或相關議題的一個合作那除了美日同盟加N以外,現有的Quad,還有現有的AUKUS,也都是多邊合作的機制那怎麼樣把這些小多邊的合作機制,能夠串成一個區域在安保議題合作的網絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3649.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3656.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
臺灣會成為其中的Plus嗎?我們會成為其中的Plus嗎?像Core的話我們一直都很低調有在參與嘛,像是AUKUS之類的,我們有辦法變成他們的另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3666.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3680.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
也許台灣並不是直接加入這些每日主導的小多邊的機制,不是直接參加,但是還是可以透過各種的管道來針對這些機制所關切的安全議題,海洋安全議題或是相關產業鏈安全的議題來交換意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3682.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3701.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以在目前為止,亞洲還是沒有辦法像北約這樣子嗎?就是有一個真正的一個軍事聯盟,因為我們可能也沒有辦法組成一個部隊啊,什麼之類的。對,因為北約它還是有它的歷史背景,在冷戰的對抗氣氛之下,有一個非常緊密的軍事,它是一個軍事同盟的合作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3702.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3719.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
再加上文化還有價值理念的一個共同性以及彼此之間沒有那麼多的領土爭議所以讓北約可以幾十年來有一個穩定的防衛機制來應應各種威脅挑戰那亞洲部分目前的條件可能還有一些需要在透過各國來討論來建構合作條件的一個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3723.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3733.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
局長,我剛剛忘了問了一個問題,就是澤倫斯基有提到說北韓的參戰呢,他是世界大戰的第一步的開始,你覺得會有這個趨勢嗎?與你來看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3735.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3763.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我想目前北韓投入的兵力還規模還是在初步的階段這是第一個那第二個他在戰場上的角色也必須要再進一步來討論因為我們所知道的是北韓這次投入的部隊是他的風暴軍團那年紀都比較輕二十幾歲那這個風暴軍團主要都是步兵的士兵那可能從事的是城鎮作戰跟敵後滲透的一個相關的一個活動那所以他們的戰場上的角色大概是處於這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3763.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3766.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以南韓他所擔心的可能會擴大到東亞,可能目前還看不到是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3790.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3808.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對,這個部分確實有這樣的關切,它的關切角度是,假如北韓跟俄國有這樣的一個同盟軍事合作的話,萬一未來北韓要在朝鮮半島新興的話,俄國會不會來支持北韓?那這是大概南韓的國安部門跟情報部門目前關注的主要的重點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3810.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3830.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
當然這都是,所以現在世界上非常的動亂,全球都非常的動亂,那台灣處在一個地緣政治上這麼重要的一個位置,所以我們還是要特別的注意,我們比較擔心的是聯動性,這聯動性像剛才我有提到的,像南韓很擔心就是說會擴及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3831.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3831.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝羅美琳委員 局長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3856.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3866.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
接下來陳永康陳永康陳永康委員不在接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3885.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3907.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
好 謝謝主席 林委員早局長早安現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家正在進行他們權力的改選或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3907.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3908.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
全力結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3928.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3952.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3953.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3966.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局在對外提供的一個觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3968.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3992.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後那國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3993.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4011.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國有盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4012.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4017.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備? |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4038.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4057.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要那就本局來講我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位不同的部門那我們會做相關的情資的一個整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4058.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4073.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
讓不管是人員情報或科技情報進來之後我們可以有比較完整全面的分析以便能夠掌握情報的即時性跟正確性那第二部分是我們也跟國際有盟不斷的來加強相關的一個情報交流跟合作以便來掌握相關發展的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4074.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4097.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4099.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4113.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4116.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4123.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
有因為就爭議訊息的散播來講國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是散布的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4144.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4163.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那由中共方面來提供相關的情訊那再透過協力者來進行轉發各位做一個數字上的說明在聯合立見2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化那在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個可是到了2024BTtalk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4171.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4199.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以短短只有幾個月對 不斷地在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4201.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4225.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4226.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4245.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4246.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4275.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
但是除了在透過這個民主陣營的選舉或者是權力改組的過程當中所引發的擾動之外其實中國對台灣的滲透是一直都持續的我想請這個局長看一下就是最近媒體都已經報導包括連法國的媒體都在提醒台灣華為用獵人頭的方式來挖角台積電的工程師我們都知道科技對於台灣現在來講是一個非常重要的一環經濟科技但是如果透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4277.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4297.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
變身的方式然後進入台灣把台灣的科技人才或關鍵技術蠶食驚吞那麼這個目前是國安局有注意到的一個樣態嗎過去我們看到的是一些關鍵技術被滲透但是如果不只是關鍵技術連台積電的工程師都會被挖角走的時候另外就是媒體也報導了 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4299.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4317.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4317.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4328.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4331.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4352.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4354.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4370.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
其數四十幾天不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4371.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4372.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
後續是不是要把AI這部份 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4398.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4399.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
委員會持續與機關交換意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4413.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4434.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4436.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4457.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連那麼有關於到底AI算力要不要算要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4458.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4484.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4486.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4513.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
對於這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4514.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4537.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
讓我們的管制機制更完善也是會來努力的一個重點那還有一點是跟廠商的溝通也就是說廠商自己要有相關的自律的一個機制那你必須要了解假如違反相關出口管制機制的話廠商本身可能也會變成是一個制裁的對象所以這部分跟廠商溝通我想我們會再跟經濟部門來做討論那看怎麼樣來強化這一部分的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4538.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4561.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
好 因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4563.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4569.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4588.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4605.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4606.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4622.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
對,這部分我們有在注意,那正如委員所提到的,它涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關,我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒,請他們要多加注意跟取締好,謝謝好,謝偉謝謝林楚瑩委員,局長請回接下來我們請王定宇、昭偉上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4644.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4647.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
首先麻煩主席請博鴻輝副部長請博副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4655.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4682.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實遷到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對美採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4684.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4695.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這已經到台灣了我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯說買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4696.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4718.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
11套11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4719.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4748.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
涉及機敏你可以不回答報告委員我想您剛才問的都是蠻機敏的所以有關於你所做的這樣訓練的這樣子的一個模式我想還是保留一點因為這個欠到我們戰力的這個養成未來海馬斯的運用在國軍的想定它是什麼樣子的運用因為我們對灘頭已經有我們自己的雷霆2000了嘛所以它絕對不是當作這種雷霆2000這種大面積的火箭彈的運用嘛有人說它是指揮官的遠程舉起槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4750.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4756.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4758.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4780.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個戰術運用上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4783.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4807.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
總長那邊都有一個特別的規劃我想這個請您放心我在這邊尋答這麼多年了基於國家利益保密是必要的但基於納稅人透明知道我們的詢問如果這兩個有漢格以國家利益為優先我再請教一件事情就是在年底前還有哪一些我們對美軍售的重要裝備我想不是一般的零附件的會送到台灣土耳B |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4809.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4809.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4839.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4839.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
先麻煩請國安局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4866.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4894.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4895.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4922.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔嗯是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4923.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4947.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都會整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4949.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4978.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
還有台海政策的政策的立場從他們的一些國安幕僚來做一些收研那這部分我們都有一些完成的準備局長你還講到我覺得我要問的這涵蓋到人事嘛他的國安人事、內閣人可能的人事嘛對他的政策選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟啊對國防啊甚至於外交啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4979.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5004.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以在因應這樣的準備上我們國家是採取什麼層級有用到國安會議來準備嗎事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況都有相關的討論所以國安會議有納入這個議題有在討論那也是跨部會在做準備對有 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5006.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5028.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他那個party issue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5029.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5055.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗提出一些共識出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5056.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5076.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
平估美選後,不管誰當選,台美之間的安全合作、地緣政治的多邊組織等等,會不會有變化?基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變。那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局,有很多也是延續到 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5077.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5077.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
其實我認為我們該 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5095.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5121.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
關心的就是這一塊,大方向那個格局是國際架構,其實要改變,結構性的問題很難改變,比如說中國的擴張主義啊,中國不遵守國際規範啊,或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突,那個架構不會變,所以不管誰當選,在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的,但是不同的政黨,不同的人,他在處理的方法, |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5122.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5142.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
會不一樣這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分對我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅可能到100那賀錦麗認為這部分可能要再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5146.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5158.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
對還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200所以我的意思是說我們觀察重點就在這些細節他們的政策方向上大致是一致的也就是至終有台那但是在細節的處理上會不太一樣方向都是要開這個藥有人是吃半顆有人開兩粒 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5164.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5179.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大影響對一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了是比如說CPTPP比方說QUAD比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5180.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5195.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5196.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5197.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5219.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5241.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者像德恩都被要求拍一個像解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5244.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5269.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
你懂我意思嗎?當然這點應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣了解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效衝不抵抗他的目的是什麼?對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但他這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5272.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5291.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
有拍影片有七件那這七件當中我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99的人進中職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5294.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5310.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互信所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5310.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5327.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年我有為了質詢去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5328.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5346.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5348.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5359.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5362.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5389.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個弄動我提這個國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5390.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5414.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,你對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定去發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5417.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5439.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
變沒事這個不對這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5440.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5440.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5479.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5482.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5500.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5511.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5514.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5537.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5538.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5553.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
局長他明天有講到說地獄方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員在討論這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5557.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5582.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的聯動性。那這樣子的聯動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加? |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5584.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5613.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
對,都是相應的增加嘛那我想要請教說目前北韓跟俄羅斯之間的軍事的這個協同的狀態是什麼樣?對北韓軍隊的表現是怎麼樣?俄羅斯的這個指揮跟這個北韓之間的契合的狀況是怎麼樣?他們是表現的好?表現的像他們在這個閱兵大典一樣好像是都是這個氣勢很強能力很強還是其實是完全我們是在過去媒體高度的強化美化他們的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5614.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5640.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5641.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5660.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5670.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5694.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5694.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5712.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了各種外媒都有所以實質上他們是有受到歧視的換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事普丁跟金正恩是一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5712.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5730.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5730.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5730.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5760.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5761.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
北韓軍隊在歐洲戰場表現如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5777.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5794.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5798.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5819.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5820.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5844.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5845.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5866.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5868.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5875.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何?他是非常滿意的嗎?他們是開心的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5876.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5903.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5904.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5927.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
不是鐵板一塊中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些威權國家的這些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5927.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5944.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5945.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5975.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上檯面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5975.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5998.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5999.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6000.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6022.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6023.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6053.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6069.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
相應來如果照民主的指標來看沒有像台灣是一個強韌的民主那不代表我們不可以跟他合作包含印尼包含南海的各聲索國我們必須要跟他們知道說我們的利害是一致的你要怎麼說服他們說你們的利害是一致的我們要怎麼說服說我們的行動是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6069.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6096.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6097.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6118.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6119.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6137.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討入租借的可能性目前我們記得是這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6138.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6154.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6155.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6155.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6184.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6208.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6210.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6236.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
就會說這個是表示中共讓步那我個人會比較警惕一點我認為他是想把資源往東部移動是不是有這種可能性對因為中印對因為中印才剛剛簽署他們邊境巡邏的相關的一個協定那看起來是有在控管彼此的雙邊的關係那主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6237.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6261.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下因為中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6262.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6279.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是 deterrence 這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6280.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6305.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
分布在一部分還是要在西部所以我們跟這個印度之間的交往不管是在你說這個商業上面軍事上面科技上面都還是會給中共施擔一點壓力戰那我們的重點我們所有的不管是情報工作軍事工作的重點就是要讓中國他的計算更加複雜化就是要讓他能夠再想一次當他們要做出任何對台灣擴大衝突的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6308.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6329.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
有沒有可能會完全失敗有沒有可能會部分失敗讓他不斷的在思考這個地方那特別你要想到他的周邊的這個各個國家都是跟他地緣真的是有挑戰的而不是友好的越南也好那最近有看到越南這一個這個在南海捕魚被中國包圍這一些東西我們都必須如果台灣有類似的狀況的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6330.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6333.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
謝謝陳冠廷委員 局長請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6368.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6369.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
國防部副部長、人事參謀次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6387.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6410.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
副部長好我也好那這個呢因為剛剛財政委會發生很多事情那這個副部長應該也知道另外一個副部長也去財政委員會那邊那現在我們討論這些事情的意義會變得已經變得很局限了為什麼呢就是因為剛剛如果按照國民黨硬推的這個財化法通過的話國防部啊最嚴重的狀況可以影響到2900多億的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6413.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6438.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
兩千九百多億的預算就包含作業的維持費軍事的採購這些全部都不用了那我們現在在這邊討論這些事情可能都已經變得沒有意義了國防部直接廢一半了所以我很痛心就是說本來今天是有機會因為我在禮拜一強烈的要求財政委員會一定要讓國防部在場因為國防部很有可能是被砍最多預算的單位藍白在對外媒說明的時候一直在講說他們絕對不會動國防預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6440.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6462.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
也說什麼這個前件他們不會去搞結果呢現在直接從才化法把中央的預算直接拿掉國防部現在就可以準備收一收了啦所以我覺得這是一件非常嚴重的事情也希望在接下來這一個月之內會進入朝野協商我們很需要國防部強烈的表達這樣的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6462.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6486.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我們今天不能當散財童子每一個縣市都給100億、200億然後國防部直接少了2900多億這國家現在就不用守護了所以我覺得這件事情真的非常的嚴重那今天部長不在但是副部長我覺得一樣因為畢竟兩位副部長針對這個預算的部分是特別的熟悉所以希望如果財務委員會還能夠正常運作的話希望能夠表達這樣的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6487.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6514.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是委員我想國防預算象徵了我們防衛自主的決心如果說對國防預算的刪減對於我們來講對於尤其國際上的宣示自我防衛決心是不夠的所以我們建議就是說在這樣的情況下應該把國防預算要列入優先考量不應該刪減國防預算因為這個我們曉得每一天中共的灰色地帶的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6515.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6542.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
維繞著台灣周邊他是非常嚴峻的挑戰那如果說我們在現在的國防預算規模都略選不足的情況下還要再刪減的話那如何應對中共對我們灰色地帶的洗腦和衝突我想這個是我們都應該在未來我們全體國人應該要考量國防預算不能刪減而同時我們如果要展現我們自我防衛決心國防預算應該是要逐漸成長那這樣對我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6544.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6569.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
中共這樣子的一個強大的壓力情況下我們也是一個對他展現一個我們自我防衛決心一個deterrence的一個這樣子的一個戰力的表現我想這個是非常重要的我們也預期在所有的這個採取法的過程當中應該要考量國防的這樣子的一個處境那也希望能夠確保國防預算的能夠保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6569.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6586.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
謝謝副部長那也希望接下來能夠這一個呢這個今天這個是財政財委會是長次出席他根本就沒有發言的機會今天連陳其邁市長都來也都沒有發言的機會那但無論如何就是也希望能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6588.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6608.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們的士兵讓我們的官兵知道這件事因為他們首當其衝啊他們現在不了解這件事情如果今天這件事情真的發生了過了一個月朝野協商之後如果真的暴力通過的話國防真的是首當其衝首當其衝我們剛剛講的作業維持跟軍備不是少是作業維持跟軍備可以完全沒有一毛不剩 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6609.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6630.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個對現在國防的一個運作應該是非常大的一個打擊所以一定要有一些對岸這是非常重要的那另外因為今天時間的關係我想問一下就是跟這個國安有關的問題那這個可能就要請這個人事參謀這邊來回答就是說我這邊有兩件事第一個事情就是這個是比較久以前的事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6631.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6659.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
大概幾個月前這件事情是他已經除籍了他已經沒有台灣籍了他其實三歲的時候入籍台灣但之後就在中國長大了在中國長大了但是已經沒有台灣籍了但最後他回到台灣的時候還是去當兵那這個我覺得不是國防部直接決定的事情這應該是內政部、議政司、陸委會等等之類的他們做了這樣的一個決定那這個我覺得OK |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6660.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6675.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
內政部那邊我們會再去詢問他們對這種事情的風險評估是什麼因為畢竟我們不會認為說今天只要是台灣人然後在中國長大其實這個基數滿多的那他們在中國長大不代表他們今天一定會被中國滲透嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6675.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6693.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
他也有可能在那邊長大反而他更了解中國的問題但問題是他一定會有一些風險指標而有這些風險指標的話國防部要怎麼評估就變得非常重要這個就連結到所以這個我不會直接問我要問的是下一個問題就是如果今天他在台灣的會期是沒有除的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6694.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6722.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那如果按照內政部現在這樣的一個說法他在台灣的戶籍也還在但是在中國那邊長大那他回來要當兵那這件事情呢因為呢我們有收到相關的公文我不會把公文放在這個上面但是這個時候呢內政部他就會有一些疑問比如說他今天如果是在中國他念的比如說他是西北工業大學哈爾濱工業大學或者南京理工大學就是這一些大學呢被認為跟解放軍的關係是比較密切的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6722.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6749.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那在左邊這邊我列的是這一些大學呢他們有些是直接被美國列入實體制裁的清單那現在這個對我們來講就會稍微有點不一樣了雖然他有可能他了解中國的問題但是因為他的家人可能在中國然後再加上呢他念的大學跟解放軍關係密切他回到台灣之後呢內政部醫政司可能就會來問國防部說他念了這一個特殊的這個大學是不是優先應該去空軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6752.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6778.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個時候呢因為人事就必須要做這個回答嘛那我們看到現在的回答是比較簡單的比較簡略的沒有一個風險評估的指標所以我這邊想問一下就是因為像這樣的事情可能會層出不窮我們也不是說他們不能當兵不是但是那一個指標現在有沒有我們風險要怎麼做評估然後才可以一方面呢他本來就要盡他這個當兵的義務但是呢我們也要守護我們的國家安全我們的機密資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6780.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6782.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
人事事現在對這件事情有沒有什麼處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6798.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6825.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所謂像類似這樣子的一個教育的方式的話是不是回國來擔任這個服兵役的這個要件這在法律上來講我們是必須要支持這樣的兵役的制度你不能說因為我讀了什麼我就不能夠大家都跑去那邊去讀書都不用服兵役了那當然不行但風險指標來管控的話第一個我們在進來的時候我們會對人員的考核也就是說你接觸的方式過去你 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6826.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6843.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
曾經在這個不管是你所謂的七大這個學校裡面在讀書的時候你所接觸到層面是如何這是第一個在風險管控第二個我們會去看你的教育狀況也會去檢查這也是風險的管控和你的聯絡的方式哪些人聯絡的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6843.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6865.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那最重要的是說第三個我們在派訓的時候呢一定不會派到精品單位那他是屬於一個什麼勤務補充我舉例來講比如說這113年我們有17個這樣子的人出現那事實上來講有6位他是服補充病就是12天的補充病他已經除疫了那事實上我們在這過程當中發現他並沒有異狀那還有11位現在是服4個月的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6871.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6888.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
七個已經服完兵役了那事實上我們在這過程當中我們也會從旁來觀察這樣子的一個條件的學生加入到我們部隊行列的時候重視他不接觸機敏他有沒有不當的聯繫的關係那我想這些都是我們在軍隊中風險管控應該要做的謝謝委員的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6891.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6918.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
對齁那因為剛剛有講到一些數字啦是那我希望因為這個可能我覺得不要公開但是譬如說過往數字大概多少然後過往的一些決定的標準以及因為這個我們就是滾動式嘛是那我們也不用直接把標準告訴他們不然大家都跑去念直接學校了是是是那所以就是說過往然後從現在開始我們會不會有新列什麼標準大概譬如說人事這邊能不能夠即使是用機密的方式都沒有關係是不是看能夠在多長的時間能夠給一份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6918.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6923.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好沒問題委員我想我們人事室他本來就已經有做這樣子風險評估我們大概一個月好不好是的沒問題謝謝那接下來是跟這個國安比較相關的請國安局局長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6939.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6958.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
委員好局長好這個是我剛好這一陣子在這個經濟委員會的時候所遇到的一個問題就是說因為之前新聞報導說台積電這個AI相關的這個晶片流過去流過去經過了一些白手套那白手套最主要是那個算能科技那算能科技在中國那邊是屬於比特大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6959.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6987.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那當時算能科技在台灣其實它有另外一家公司但後來當然就是被查了被查了之後看起來重複的人員又跑到算能科技那我們後來才發現不管是華為、比特大陸跟算能科技它完全不在我們目前的實體的這個制裁清單上面它不在經濟部、國、貿屬上面的清單而理由是因為當時我們的清單想跟著美國走結果我們跟著美國走的時候呢因為美國制裁華為非常的早 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6988.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7005.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們這邊清單並沒有同步做更新我們在詢問的過程當中他們說他們三個月會更新一次下次會滾動性考量因為到我說真的華為、彼特大陸跟算能科技這個對我們來講絕對是非常嚴重的一望即知但是他們也有說國安單位有一些別的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7006.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7028.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以我這邊想問一下就是以現在來說因為他們想要更新這個可能是過往的事情他可能有詢問國安單位那時候是不是局長搞不好都不是但總之那時候國安單位是比較保守的一個態度但現在因為如果經濟部在用這樣的一個理由說這個如果說我們可能還是要問一下國安局還是要問一下陸委會所以在這邊反而是想要問局長對於這件事情的態度大概為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7029.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7051.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
對基本上我們對於高科技的管制那當然都會從國安的角度來認為說政府應該要建立起一個完整的清單以及相關的管制機制那目前的一個管制清單主要是包括聯合國跟美國提供的相關的廠商的名單再由業管單位經濟部這邊召開跨部會的會議來進行研討哪些企業該放到這個管制清單上面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7052.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7064.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就國安局的角度來講我們會參與相關的討論當然會重演把關來針對這些管制的一些項目來提供我們的意見我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員在說明事實上從2021年到現在為止我們所啟動查查的相關中共竊密攬財的相關案子已經超過100件那100件當中有42件應該已經都遭到檢方的起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7076.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7099.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以我們會持續的來針對中共可能透過各種的空殼公司還有其他的協力公司在台灣進行簽名或攬財也會同時來注意所以一方面加強科技的出口的一個管制那另一方面也必須要來查查不同的個案中共是透過怎麼樣的一個管道來對我們的高科技的人才進行拉攏或是針對一些高科技的產品來進行間接的一個採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7100.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7125.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
謝謝局長因為這件事情比如說彼特大陸這個他已經發生了那華為是比較早期的但是基本上他跟中國的關係太深了所以在這邊希望國安單位能夠給精心部好的建議那不然的話他們兩手一攤說有可能有別的建議到時候並沒有把這個放入實體清單也包含像現在淘寶到處在下廣告都可能會有這些竊取個資等等相關的問題希望國安單位一併考量那因為時間到了剩下的我就下次再詢問謝謝局長謝謝委員謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7132.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7133.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
謝謝沈博洋委員 局長請回謝謝 那接下來有請林軍委員謝謝主席 有請國安局長趙薇好 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7160.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7186.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我想先請問一下局長台灣現在跟俄羅斯的關係應該是這幾年來最惡劣的時候吧?對,我們事實上在幾年前已經終止了跟俄國全面的貿易關係那另外在俄烏戰爭之後那也因為台灣基於價值理念提供烏克蘭很多的一個援助包括人道的援助那俄國對這方面的台灣的援助也有一些維持所以也把台灣列為不友好的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7188.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7213.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
從美國彭博社這個禮拜的新聞報導有看到發現今年十月份的台灣石化工業進行創紀錄的俄羅斯的石腦油本席在根據經濟部的統計所以俄羅斯是現在台灣第三大煤炭的進口的來源國也是第六大天然氣進口的來源這說明了我們台灣對俄羅斯其實有一定的人員上面的依賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7214.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7229.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
再加上俄羅斯跟中國現在是所謂的全面戰略協作的合夥伴的關係那是不是表示俄羅斯如果配合中國對台灣實施制裁那我們是不是可能會比被中國禁止我們台灣的龍魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7231.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7233.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
國安局有沒有分析,那俄羅斯在哪些狀況之下會減少甚至停止對台灣石化原料的供應?那國安局內部的兵推有沒有做過這樣的想定? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7247.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7274.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
對,我們國安大會是有在提醒相關的公營或國營企業在進行相關的能源採購應該也要考慮到相關地緣政治的問題那不過我們初步的理解是有些契約他可能之前就已經簽訂了那這個部分可能還要有一個契約的相關法律的一個評估那另外一方面就是民間的企業那怎麼樣來約制民間企業可能有這樣的合作行為可能也是另外一個評估的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7276.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7280.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
希望國安局之後的兵推還是要繼續設想這種可能發生的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7281.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7306.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那接下來我再問一下就是北韓上個禮拜才試射一枚火星19的洲際的飛彈然後11月4號又朝東部的海域發射好幾枚的飛彈那從射程上面來看應該至少是中程彈道的飛彈洲際洲際這一顆是洲際彈道飛彈對那請問一下那局長你認為北韓當局的政治的目的是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7307.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7329.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對,委員剛有提到,就圖面上所顯示的就10月31號北韓發射的火星19型的洲際彈道飛彈那正如委員所提到的,這一次的飛彈它飛行的高度有到7600公里然後飛行的時間有到85分鐘那這是北韓所有歷史上測試的飛彈飛行的距離跟時間最長的一次那我們認為在這時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7332.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7344.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
主要目的有幾個部分第一個部分當然就是在鞏固北韓內部的一種團結跟內聚力那第二部分就是在對外的部分希望在美國大選期間來展示美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7345.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7369.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
美國來知道北韓已經擁有這種核導的地位也就是核武跟導彈的一個能力那同時在新政府美國新政府上台之後可以以這個當籌碼希望美國在美韓聯合軍演應該要更所謂的減少那同時在對於北韓的制裁也應該要放鬆所以北韓是透過這些內外因素的評估那我們認為才會有這個美國大選階段的一個飛彈試射的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7371.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7396.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
剛才說到了北韓的飛彈,局長你有沒有發現,就是俄烏戰爭爆發之前,然後北韓有好幾年的時間,其實在長城飛彈上面的技術好像都是遇到了瓶頸,但是過去這一年中,北韓在發射的技術方面,無論是衛星還是長城的飛彈,失敗率好像都是大幅的下降,那是不是會印證俄羅斯可能有提供北韓飛彈技術上面的猜想呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7396.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7414.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
有,這部分確實有這樣的一個關聯性那因為在過去這一年多的時間那經過雙方的一個互動在大概去年11月我們就注意到委員所講的北韓四射的導彈還有衛星火箭它的成功率有提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7414.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7431.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們相信這背後應該是有俄國在技術上提供的援助那這個過程當中除了北韓接收到俄國提供的火箭技術以外北韓也供應了非常多的砲彈給俄國在俄烏戰場來使用那從公開的資訊來看北韓已經運送大概有13000多個貨櫃 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7432.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7451.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
提供的都是軍需品給俄國,所以他們雙方基於這樣各取所需的情況之下,俄國提供北韓精元跟導彈技術,那北韓提供俄國相關的一個軍需用品跟目前的士兵到俄國去,所以有看到雙方的戰略合作關係似乎越來越緊密。 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7454.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7481.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
俄羅斯用人員出口跟輸出飛彈的技術換取北韓的軍事資源的話那中國的話也是私底下可能會提供俄羅斯資源加上我們觀察到中國這幾年有一個極音速的飛彈發展有一個突飛猛進的趨勢那我們一般會推測中國是不是用軍事資源的交換方面俄羅斯的飛彈的技術呢但是今年初的路透社的報導就是俄羅斯前後 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7481.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7483.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
局長,你認為中國的極音速飛彈這幾年突飛猛進,靠的是跟俄羅斯交換的技術還是中國自己的技術上面的突破呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7502.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7503.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好,那謝謝局長,那我有請國防部副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7536.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7536.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
召開好 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7538.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7565.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
副部長你知道最近我們台灣的國民都非常關注台灣與美國採購裝備上面的高效能反裝甲的飛彈的交付的進度所以今天本席想要請教一下副部長就是先前我們跟美國買的托式飛彈原本預定是6年前就要開始交貨了但是雖然載台的漢馬車已經完成交貨但為什麼飛彈拖到現在還是一旦未交呢是大約是要拖到什麼時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7568.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7583.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
王委員：王朝野剛也問過了那因為我們在美方在測試的時候最後出場的時候試射的時候他有很多系統上的瑕疵所以他重新組合了那美方也保證在今年年底之前會把所有的彈都會運送到台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7585.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7604.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為我記得顧部長在5個月前他就已經說過說今年年底一定會完成嘛是完成全部的交貨對但是拖到現在我覺得說因為現在已經11月了是還交不出來然後可能又好像現在是11月然後如果真的按承諾如果交是不是有剩下 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7605.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7633.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
你看我們現在總共是要交1700枚嘛然後這樣的話如果是說現在都還沒有交出來還是現在已經交多少枚了呢那真的可以你這樣分析你覺得真的可以順利完成交貨嗎?幫委員這個因為美方的保證我想我也相信他們因為基於我們雙方的默契我這邊不做贅述但是我相信在今年年底我們Toros-2B的這個飛彈會全速運到台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7634.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7659.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那請國防部就是一定要緊追著我們後續的裝備的交付的進度因為如果裝備的交付有一些拖延的問題的話是不是請國防部要主動的積極的爭取也要主動的揭露因為不要那麼被動因為不要每次都是我們發現然後我們一直在追然後其實主動揭露的話其實對國軍的形象反而是有加分的因為主動揭露的話是不是也表示你國防部對裝備採購這是一個負責任的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7663.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7678.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那國防部做得到嗎?報委員我想軍售的部分因為牽扯到我們在合約的管理上的問題那有時候揭露這件事情我們有時候在合約上管理上來講還是必須尊重那至於說進度的揭露我們也希望讓透明化讓國人知道因為是公開預算我們當然希望我們主動會告訴國人那我想這個也是提醒美方我相信不只是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7692.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7717.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
委員在美國參訪的時候也了解就是說這個進度他們也想趕上來但是委員去了以後我相信進度會更快為什麼因為督促的管道非常多那包含我們今天在駐美軍事代表團他會時時刻刻定到那個進度那我們國防部的管制他是非常嚴謹的所以委員你去參訪完了以後發現到這一進度事實上有很多的關卡在罷官 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7718.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7734.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那至於說如何去揭露我想公共訊息的發布我們也會討論未來跟美方在軍售上來講我們去協商如何做不是只有我發布我認為在軍售國來講美方也應該共同跟我來發布這個訊息為什麼他會落後的原因我想原廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7734.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7750.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
他也必須要說明這個是對一個國際的軍售的保證我想這個都是我們在未來在委員的提醒之下我們如何去精進我們在這個交受進度上管制上來講如何去跟美方去配合來辦理謝謝委員的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7750.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7765.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
因為這是美國對台灣的軍售延遲交付的狀況真的是蠻嚴重的啦所以我還是想說我們應該持續跟美方要爭取加快交付的進度那再來我再詢問一下副部長就是有關海軍後續艦艇的議題那海軍輕型的巡防艦的防空型前天才開始安放在龍谷還反潛行看來進度好像還蠻順利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7775.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7794.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
但是那國防部還有印象是說本席在上個月有曾經質詢的時候有提到一級艦都是普遍都是已經太老舊的問題本席想要請教副部長就是海軍目前有沒有下一代主力的作戰艦的規劃呢而且之前蔡英文總統也提出12項國艦國造的計畫這個會不會完成呢還是政策有沒有調整呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7801.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7814.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這個是我們海軍在既定的新型行防艦新一代行防艦事實上來講它是非常成功的那我們後續也有後續艦的第二批的這個建設那同樣的防空型和反潛型的我們原型艦也在115年會做出來這些都蠻 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7818.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7844.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個合乎我們的要求和進度那我相信我們海軍在未來規劃上來講因應這個我們未來的這個敵情的威脅他會持續在建案那這對我們在未來的戰力上來講是有所提升我想這個都是海軍在未來來講他們都很有在系統上規劃我們也核定了他們未來的造艦計畫我想這個是既定的計畫都在依照我們的進度的計畫裡面來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7846.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7866.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
據我了解12項的國建國造的計畫的核心除了潛艦之外最重要的應該就是政海計畫跟下一代的主力艦但是聽說中科院研發的雷達跟作戰的系統似乎又達不到要求所以挪動了整個原預算這樣接去做了輕型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7867.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7886.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那問題是,國防部如果想要用輕型的巡防艦去面對這種高強度的作戰,這樣是不是會有點太勉強了?這是不是等於原本的戰力空缺問題還是存在呢?那請教一下副部長,就是國防部這樣的計畫到底是什麼呢?是放棄了升級海軍作戰艦了嗎?還是放棄了補給線呢?準備讓共軍來封鎖台灣了呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7893.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7914.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
當然不是 我想我們的艦艇的配置重型的一級艦、二級艦、三級艦都是有它的所有計畫管制的其成那輕型巡防艦只是因應我們現代的灰色地帶衝突的洗腦增加了加上海巡的戰力 那我們如何來做搭配 因為輕型巡防艦是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7915.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7915.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7946.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7947.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
徐曉新委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘紅色漢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7981.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7984.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
警官局蔡局長警局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7990.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8014.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝主席 鴻文局長我們今天想要來跟你討論的問題是我們其實有很多政府部會的公務員或者是公部門裡面的約聘顧其實常常每天他們都會開很多會議或做包括做很多會議記錄那這些第一線的公務員其實他們包括個案的訪談或是這些會議記錄、訪談記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8016.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8037.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這些內容有的時候敏感有時候也不一定敏感但是裡面勢必都會有一些敏感的資訊在我們行政體系裡面所以我們其實我們也看到我們其實有很多公務體系的這個公務員或約聘戶協助做記錄他們常常會去使用這個錄音轉錄的這個文件的電子產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8042.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8068.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那買這個來開會因為其實方便嘛那很快就可以把這個錄音把它轉成主次考或者是即時的翻譯那但是我不知道局長清不清楚其實這些電子產品你如果要去使用的話其實你都需要連線到一個第三方的APP但現在大家發現這些很多第三方的應用程式 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8070.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8076.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
大部分都是中國的資訊業者所以我要問局長第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8077.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8107.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
你覺得像我們裡面假如有一些會議裡面有這些敏感的資訊使用這類的產品你覺得有沒有一些國安上面的風險?風險確實是存在喔那事實上我們也利用各種的機會在提醒中制的APP它本身就有存在治安的風險因為依照中共的相關的國安法規各個相關的軟體或企業必須要把他們所擁有的客戶的資訊要提供給相關的國安部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8107.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8136.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所以這個問題的風險性是存在的局長OK我謝謝你很坦誠講這風險是存在其實這類的電子產品其實真的蠻好用的而且它價格很便宜所以我們其實有很多公務體系來說其實對它來講是很吸引人的就是說我買一個我就可以方便我工作很多但我想要跟局長講我們現在看到有一些看起來它可能是歐洲品牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8138.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8167.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
但是呢 這個電子設備它本身可能是歐洲品牌 它不是中國品牌喔但是它的第三方APP的公司呢 比方說像這個它是精華電子 深圳的精華電子那它的母公司 就是南京的熊貓電子南京熊貓電子的母公司 再是這個中國的電子信息那這當然是一家中國國務院獨資的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8169.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8189.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
甚至我想這個局長已經清楚其實2020年當時有一個很這個國際上面非常非常大家都了解事件就是關於這個深圳的振華數據的這個事情那透過這個深圳的這一家中國的國有公司那做對很多明星、軍人、商人等等去做相關的監控當時就被發現了這樣的數據的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8192.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8217.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
當然我們發現其實現在包括剛才講的金華數據跟這個振華其實他們的控制者是相同的所以就像我這邊想要說的事情是我自己覺得像我們現在看到的這個狀況我不知道國安局有沒有像我們相關部門在情收上面在情質上面做清楚的提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8218.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8247.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個部分我們比較關切的是剛跟委員報告的就是針對中置的這些自通訊產品或是APP的資安風險那來提出一些警示那事實上在上一屆立法院也在這個問題上有很多的討論那因為涉及到規範的依據到底有沒有一個規範的依據來讓一般的民眾或公務員在選擇中置的APP有一個所謂的法院的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8249.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8262.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
中資品牌,產品本身不是中國品牌,所以是歐洲品牌,歐洲品牌去用了中國的APP,就像剛剛局長說用了中國的APP有可能資料會上傳會回傳, |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8266.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8281.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
國安局有沒有針對這件事情向速發部或相關部會提出示警?上屆立法院林靜雯有做這樣的提案希望由國安局提醒速發部相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8284.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8300.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
在會後後來就請我們的科技副局長跟蘇發副的次長針對這個問題有做相關的一個討論局長當然問題是我們之前當然我們有修了這個所謂各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則對不對對只是這裡面我們的清單沒有公開嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8302.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8320.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
如果我們按照這個使用原則來做管理的話,局長你覺得我們管不管到剛才我們講的這件事情?這可能還有涉及到各個部門之間相關的一個...你覺得管不管得到?管不到啊?對,可能不太容易。 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8321.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8347.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
因為我們在這邊第一個清單沒有公佈所以我們其實是讓這個使用原則他現在用的做法是說讓治安署透過跨部會的協調平台跟各機關溝通其他的內容是什麼我們外界其實也不知道那剛剛在講的這個問題我們其實去了解了一下他可能只是要求針對大陸的品牌中國品牌禁止使用那這明顯就是一個洞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8349.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8362.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們剛才講 局長也承認說這可能是有國安上面疑慮的問題精明資料可能會外洩被回傳的問題可是在這個使用原則裡面明顯管不到啊 局長你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8364.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8382.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
對,這個問題我們來注意,因為依照那個自通安全法管理法,確實是公務機關不能夠使用中國大陸所製的這些自通產品,是有這樣的規範可是委員剛剛特別提醒的是有外國的品牌去使用到中資的產品,那這部分在規範上確實有個模糊空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8383.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8398.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那局長你覺得你會來提醒我們這個數位部因為我當然今天數位部不在可是我自己是覺得說第一個大家會很困惑的點就是說我們現在報告這個清單沒有公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8400.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8427.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
到底這裡面喔 比方說他可能我們是聽說裡面對華為華為的產品有限制使用但是你通常你是其他的政府部會你要去詢問他可是到底他的清單裡面有什麼我們也不知道有漏沒漏是不是夠完整是不是夠全面是不是兼顧到各個層次其實坦白說大家都並不知道所以很有可能我們的公務員他去詢問說我採購能不能採購他們說可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8431.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8458.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就可以了以後一樣啊回去連線到中國的APP很有可能把這些機密資料全部都回傳給老共所以局長我這邊要講是因為我知道說一步不在可是我覺得你們應該很嚴正的態度我光剛才幾分鐘的時間局長你就知道這邊是一個漏洞了嗎我聽懂意思對這邊就是一個明顯的漏洞嘛我們不是用猜的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8459.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8479.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這就是一個明顯漏洞,我覺得應該要來盡快的,是不是可以在兩個禮拜內,請跟這個,包括數位部,召開一個相關的會議,請他們來討論,我請國安局跟數位部來討論,我們到底怎麼把類似這樣的漏洞,其實可以補起來,包括是不是要研修相關的法規,還是修相關的規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8481.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8508.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
讓像這樣子的風險我們有一個具體去解決的時程很可能也不是只是剛才說的這樣子的錄音轉錄筆而已不是只是這樣的東西而已是很多層次我們現在是擔心的事情是說這類型的產品或者是它其實可能是尤其是都是用應用服務包括可能是資訊的平台上面應用服務的、是用中資的我們有沒有可能一個更嚴格來去管理跟禁止使用的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8510.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8537.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這部分我們謝謝委員的提醒我們會後會立刻來針對這個問題做比較細部的一個研議那也會來找數位部來針對這個問題做一些溝通畢竟數位部他是主管業管機關局長這可能在兩個禮拜內我們又要出兩個禮拜出報告兩個禮拜內請國關局來跟我們辦公室來告訴報告你們跟數位部溝通的狀況還有你們接下來要怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8539.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8539.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8572.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8581.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 馬委員好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8601.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8614.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8624.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8638.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8642.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8642.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位? |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8663.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8683.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8684.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8684.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8701.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8705.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8728.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8728.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8746.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8760.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8761.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8764.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個倒有的簡單好不好簡單就那個因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關鍵的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8783.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8806.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
由北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8807.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8820.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8825.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8840.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到北韓去派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8846.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8866.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
還有就是歐洲的局勢因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8867.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8895.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
對 我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對 就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8897.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8919.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
北韓對於中國的依賴或關係也會受到一些影響那但另一方面北韓的參戰能不能夠讓俄國在戰場上能夠有因為北韓的兵員的投入能夠不會有遭遇更多的一個一個務軍的反撲那中國在這方面又有點期待所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8920.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8950.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我想其實他倒不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8951.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8968.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
對在這個過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略的一個牽制但另一方面來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8969.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8983.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8984.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9002.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9003.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9016.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9019.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9031.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9038.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9061.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9066.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9069.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9081.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9083.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9105.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9105.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9116.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9118.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
馬雲好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9141.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9158.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
軍售的部分比拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9161.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9180.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9181.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9206.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9208.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9237.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的關係你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9238.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9255.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9255.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9281.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
才要通通交起給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕這是錯的這在玩文字遊戲我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起欸他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了或者我們都可以如期的獲得這是錯的我再提醒一次我們把期程延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9284.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9299.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9301.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9327.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9328.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9337.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心決心是我的防衛需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9346.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9352.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求可是我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9374.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9379.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
經過監督這樣會把責任推給不會不會我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上絕對是已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9405.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9414.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
暨密的案子,過去都會給我們所有的委員有一本相關的一個參考的資料,今年不給的原因是什麼?再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9422.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9450.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我們都在三年五年一會議事做那個承諾我想請教過去為什麼可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9451.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9452.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
為什麼不可以看機密? |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9468.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9479.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9494.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9522.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9524.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9545.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
黃委員這個我們可以檢討因為過去竟然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9546.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9558.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9565.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9589.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成他都是延續性的那你突然都不給看大家根本不知道你過去有什麼案子啊那你做的好不好花了多少錢未來是不是還應該要繼續這樣子做大家不知道啊你在掩蓋什麼呢你在掩蓋什麼呢你可以給媒體披露出來你不可以給立法委員應該監督的我們應該看你的錢怎麼花 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9592.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9618.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
你叫大家用背的嗎報告委員 這個我下去再跟我們主席再討論他的觀點從哪裡我再跟委員報告不用跟我報告您讓我們知道說為什麼過去可以現在不行先把現在如果你要這樣子說的話先把現在洩漏出去的所有的洩密案包括你們之前為什麼更改很多的案名全部把它查出來你必須要做一個交代以後你才可以做這樣的調整好不好好 謝謝委員什麼時候可以給我們結果一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9622.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9622.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
謝謝馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9652.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9655.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢。謝謝主席,我們先請國防部副部長。請副部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9681.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9695.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
根據中時新聞網他的一篇新聞裡面談到最近大家看到在新竹湖口陸軍第六軍團裡面有一位義務役的新兵竟然持步槍在營區的廁所內開槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9700.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9700.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我請陸馨來回答請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9720.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9740.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
委員好我是陸軍常務長陳建一向委員報告我先簡單說明一下任何實戰化的訓練我們對於訓練跟安全的規範都有明確的律定那這只是一起這個個人他沒有遵守到規範的事件那其實我要明確的說這跟星光部隊沒有關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9742.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9757.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
沒有關聯但是那為什麼他會撿到子彈然後帶到廁所裡面再擠發這個過程可不可以說明一下你們現在的調查結果報委員可以的我們現在在整個訓場上因為我要先講他的場景是在訓場內在訓場內我們這個實戰化的設計那我們現在要求不要因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9764.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9765.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以他撿的地方是在哪? |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9791.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9813.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
是在我們虎口訓場裡面在某高地的鋼棚是在訓練場域那這個同仁他有沒有去了解他為什麼要做這件事做了初步了解那我跟委員報告我們對於這個有兩個面向第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9814.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9829.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們不能因為實戰化而鬆懈到訓練的紀律反而更應該要求這個在事前都有加強的要求他如果真的發現有前面部隊所遺落的彈藥沒有被清查到他要立刻的向幹部回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9830.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9831.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
他不是在廁所發現的,他在訓練過程看到有遺落的子彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9846.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9846.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
目前的行政調查和據證明事關的下市 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9863.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9864.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
接下來我要繼續問另外一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9887.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9892.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
關於下湖東營的統包工程這件事情,我們要請軍備局局長來,歡迎軍備局局長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9902.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9925.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
局長,針對這個海軍的下湖東營區興建統包工程案這個總薪額有9億多施工期間是3年那我們辦公室有收到檢舉這個過程工程的多項缺失所以也了解了一下我想要問局長你有沒有了解這個工程的施工期間有多少次的違法跟違規紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9928.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9946.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
跟委員報告,他的工程履歷期間,原來是有原訓的,他有違反勞動部的就業服務法,非法的僱用,非法的外籍,有被移民署裁罰了120萬,另外本部依照契約也給他罰了110萬,另外違反規定的相關預期有5項14萬,整個總工期我們都給他罰了244萬,都依規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9953.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9958.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
當然你依規定來實施這個相關的懲罰嘛當然問題是這個工程問題就很大啦你一個9億多的一個新建統包工程案然後我數給你聽喔112年5月17號有5個非法移工移民署他罰了50萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9977.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9987.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
113年4月移民署又再去營區抓了6個非法移工罰70萬我就問112年才抓過一次為什麼113年就都還繼續有那請問軍備局對於這個9億多的工程計畫在這個包商他處理這個事情的時候你們難道沒有更嚴謹的要求對方嗎為什麼還會持續連續兩年都發生這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10004.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10026.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以說我們依照合約我們除了移民署罰之外我們根據他第二次啊那他如果第三次也是就罰錢了是他總金額9億他還是很賺啊來其他違反規定的契約的四項五項才罰14萬多的包含是上面我寫的這幾項也一樣嘛所以我就小這個金額比較小我不講 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10027.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10034.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那這個工程是在10月17、18號做驗收請問局長知道驗收的時候缺失有幾項嗎?各位委員報告,詳細的缺失我不清楚大概是幾百項因為缺失大概在我們的經驗值大概都是幾百項的缺失在改進中缺項總共有258項所以其實真的算蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10055.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10075.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你一個9億的案子我們也給你時間做了然後你有258項在驗收的時候有缺失而且土建179、基建42、文建37按照這個契約要在11月11日完成離現在才差幾天而已局長你有掌握目前的改善進度嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10076.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10090.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
目前改善的進度我們公營中心都會督管我們按照委員指導的沒有改進就是按照每日計法工程款的千分之一我們一定會依法來計二月的執行那局長這個得標的廠商叫什麼名字? |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10092.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10117.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
緣順網路上的負責人是姓黃叫做黃萬傑根據消息來源他的老闆姓曹是一位民進黨前立委曹來旺的弟弟曹來發他的兒子叫做曹俊傑局長您知道他們這層關係嗎我不清楚你不清楚對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10118.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10136.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那我要告訴你一件事情在我們向你們國防部、軍備局索取了相關資料之後昨天有一個叫做曹俊傑的人說他跟我們辦公室有約要強行的上來我們辦公室說要跟我 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10137.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10156.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
去談這個事情你覺得這樣子是妥善的嗎這個我不清楚這就是這家營造公司裡面的人然後他們知道了我們我都沒有質詢喔所以你們內部有人有問題有去洩密說我問了什麼資料然後讓這家公司知道然後他們派他們來欺騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10158.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10171.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
欺騙樓下的櫃台人員說他跟我有約結果呢我想說我根本不認識這個人為什麼他會說他跟我有約我們一查才知道就是這家廠商相關的關係人 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10173.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10175.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
副部長,你怎麼看這件事?這個是政治問題。副部長,你怎麼看這個情況?你怎麼看這樣的情況? |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10190.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10199.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我覺得此風不可長,我們所有的督導過程當然是公開透明的副部長我跟你說昨天的情況,我們收到了陳情案,我們只跟軍備局有聯繫,這件事情完全沒有跟任何其他人聯繫,然後呢,我們就是今天預定要表定質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10211.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10225.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
昨天這個統報案的陳蘭商到委員研究室的一樓櫃檯報他公司名稱說要找徐巧欣的辦公室謊稱說他是要上來開會的說跟我有約用騙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10228.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10246.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這樣子的一個營造公司是我們軍備局是我們國防部可以信任的嗎難道以後我向單位所知瞭解事情然後你們有內鬼跟營造廠通風報信今天我們所講的他的缺失你們確實有人罰錢了確實就是做不好確實就是應該要檢討我們立法委員質詢這個問題有錯在哪裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10250.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10274.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我們都是要幫助這個工程變得更好提醒軍備局要去改善在11月11號驗收的時候能夠過關也是保護這個相關工程進度的安全守護大家的納稅錢那怎麼會有一個廠商他囂張到9億多的預算拿到之後只因為不曉得從哪一個管道第一,絕對不是我們第二,我們只跟軍備局聯絡過而已我們沒有跟其他單位聯絡過 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10276.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10288.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
他就知道是我們要質詢然後就用這種欺騙欺瞞的方式說要來找我們開會發生這樣的事情就在昨天我今天要質詢他昨天來 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10289.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10305.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以我想要請這個副部長你講一下就是對這個事情你們能不能夠去嚴查到底是誰去透露這些資訊給廠商做出這麼我覺得蠻不適格的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10307.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10326.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我沒有跟他約他跑上來那如果我真的跟他見到面了那我還不到時候被誣賴說哎呀你跟廠商有見過面啊怎麼樣怎麼樣我哪知道就還好我們是有預警就大剌剌的報公司名稱覺得能夠來跟立委喬事情讓我們不要質詢嗎這樣的廠商你們還能夠信任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10329.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10358.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以第一針對廠商這樣子的行徑可不可以承諾去向他們詢問到底為什麼要這樣做第二因為我們只跟軍備局聯絡所以我們非常合理的懷疑是軍備局裡面的人員當然絕不是局長我是說相關可能的人員向廠商透露可能會被立法委員質詢因為我沒有索取相關資料這件事情可不可以查清楚給我們一個交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10360.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10378.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
首先我要謝謝委員在這種工程上給我們的監督這對我們來講是非常好的是有利的那第二個您講的這些事實我想我也必須去了解為什麼廠商會直接用這樣的方式去找到您那我想我們如果說按照您所講的對阿如果我被威脅對如果說是您辦公室看我們那我們自己內部也回去去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10384.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10400.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我們也防範這種事情發生是不好的而且非常危險啊今天如果是其他國防的是其他可能軍工產業的那我們是不是我們作為委員我們有人身上面的安全的問題所以這件事情我要問副部長能不能夠送政風調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10403.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10405.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
謝謝副部長,那就麻煩把他送到政風處,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10428.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10447.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
謝謝徐曉勳委員副部長請回然後我們修正稍早的宣告待會林黛華委員質詢完畢後才休息5分鐘你要跟那個調嗎?可是孟凱要講嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10461.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10462.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
臨戴華委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10477.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10503.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
本席針對目前資安、國防、僵化我們應該要有靈活的資安戰略那我就這幾個議題跟您做個爬梳第一個觀念的確認第二個本席認為全軍是缺乏資安概念的保防認知地下第三國軍的資安不是在演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10504.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10519.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
第4個現行的國軍資安訓練機制是僵化的第5個本期建議好我們觀念確認副部長您認不認同我這兩個這樣的論點第一個資安就是國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10520.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10546.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
而國軍的職安就是國防這是第一個第二個通知電軍是捍衛我國的網路主權的專業軍種這兩個觀念您認同嗎若維完全認同好如果你認同你知道他多重要右邊這是我們國發會在我們現在執政黨當中所要發展的一個產業六大核心產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10550.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10576.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這兩個國軍的資安就是國安我們的通知電軍的網路主權的專業軍種他跨6個核心戰略就佔了3個他有資訊及數位他有資安卓越以及國防及戰略他所要產生對國家的利益是什麼在貢獻全球繁榮與安全的數位基地他對我們貢獻的是世界信賴的資安信託 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10577.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10595.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個貢獻的是我們的國防自主及行銷太空國家的品牌,占了一半。好,但是國軍的資安訓練及模擬的工具是反應僵化。我們必須半年前準備演練的腳本,每次的模擬還要三、四千萬的公帑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10596.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10622.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
作業成本之高昂且無法及時反應好那以今年10月14號環台軍演中國政府以突擊的方式宣布軍演到展演到演習的時間3小時早上5點宣布說要軍演然後呢就8點開始這樣3小時我們通知電軍要如何模擬這樣的情勢呢有沒有動作沒有好那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10624.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10651.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
在經過一個禮拜右邊我就讓你看了我們就這個新聞你們實在是這個國防部就出槌了從10月14號過了一個禮拜10月21號我們部長、將官、情報員的財產各自外流那你們就只是回應新聞稿說我們後續將檢討書者強化公文作業及管制流程這實在是很嚴肅的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10653.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10671.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這充分表示什麼我國防部部本部隊粗淺的各自保護的嘗試都會忽略代表我全軍的資安及保防的素養之低下官校時期在受訓的時候我就缺乏資安的養成 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10672.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10691.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
校官升等也沒有資安的回訊本席提這個就是我希望你們沒有做好一定要很嚴肅的、快速度的、全面性的來提升加強國軍資安不是只有在演習為什麼會產生我國軍資安這樣子的一個狀態呢我只能這個領導督察的機制我只能用一個亂字 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10700.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10717.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們來看右邊這張圖這個我們爬梳出來我們的第四軍種這號稱第四軍種我們矮化為防衛司令部架構我的領導督察機制之亂從指揮官副指揮官參謀長副參謀長中將少將少將上將好我們的督軍是誰督察是誰監軍是誰陣戰戰效 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10726.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10733.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
政戰組內是一個上校級指揮官督導右邊的資通聯隊跟網路聯隊參謀長督導左下角的政戰人行網通副參謀長督導的是資戰副指揮官幹什麼?沒事做,沒職長,沒明確職長然後我們的監軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10753.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10773.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
在軍中是非常所以有這個副指揮官就形同閒職了有指揮官一人掌管資通作業及網路作戰這兩個聯隊軍中的文化是非常重視階級跟倫理的以通知電軍組織來看上校的戰戰主念如何能夠節制督導網路聯隊跟資通聯隊的少將聯隊長 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10778.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10802.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以整個領導督察的機制就是一個亂子這是現況好那如果我們國軍相對於資安演訓的機制跟美軍來比本席認為有這五項的缺失第一個缺乏對抗演訓如果例如我們在聯勇演習各軍種的軍友模擬對抗我們通知電軍沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10803.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10825.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
第二,現有的資安訓練機制需具備資通訊高度的背景,我們的訓練機制沒有。訓練系統的演習情境設計是矮板的,模擬情境需耗費數月之久,再者,缺乏與時俱進的外部聯動,無法連結瞬息萬變的資訊作戰實務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10828.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10845.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
再者,最後,學員的程度不一,欠缺個性化的演訓模式,沒有訓練進度的管制及完訓證照。這是本期認為的缺失。好,我在這邊有幾項要求。三項,國防資安即刻強化由全軍養成。 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10848.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10874.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
檢討現行的通知電演訓機制運用新科技及資訊工具建立完善的健全的數位戰士這個名字也是你們講的數位戰士所以他的養成的訓練制度跟課程請你們數數的完善健全並比照聯勇演習的對抗概念由政府主管分組對抗落實戰訓合一的目標這是第一個本期的要求第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10875.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10892.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
訓練機制與課程的規劃含全軍、官校、回訓、後備當然是包括點招、叫招回來一天回來兩個禮拜一兩個禮拜後備都要具備這樣的一個資通訊的這樣的回訓的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10893.807 |
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10920.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
應用靈活並與時俱進結合外界實務．完訓之後包括測驗跟授證．並可納入個人化的培訓管制．接軌認證同步增加募兵．如果我們有授證．這個我們的軍人退休之後．他就是一技之長．有軍方認證的．第三,鑒於對岸採突擊式的演訓．這種的方式只會與日俱增． |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10921.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10945.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
國軍因最短的時間內改進現有的僵化機制由資安保防的演訓做警以上本席的訴求,國防部能不能一周內提出具體的改正方措施呢?謝謝委員的指教,我想這些都是我們應該要蓄心檢討的,我們會在一周之內提供相關的報告給委員參考我希望是全面性的,我說全軍養成是的,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10948.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10958.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
謝謝林大華委員、副部長請回。那我再修正一下宣告,待會賴氏堡委員質詢完畢之後,再休息5分鐘。現在請賴氏堡委員上台質詢。謝謝主席一個先進。有請國安委的蔡局長,還有國防部的副部長。請蔡局長、副部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10977.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11004.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
主席賴委員好兩位長官好現在看起來我現在知道現在美國大選大家很關心在這個時刻是川普是198選舉人票哈里斯賀錦麗爾是112張選票看起來川普大概贏了嘛是吧沒有因為他還在開票計票我們可能不適合做議政查這麼多勒?查這麼多? |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11006.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11023.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
對,不適合臆測,這是外交憤激,請委員可以理解。好,現在不管怎麼樣,我先請教那個部長,這個大家都知道嘛,這個蔡局長要講的話還可以講,就是他原來講了,今年初講說台灣的國防要到5%,然後在選舉Campaign的過程裡面,說要到10%GDP, |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11030.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11058.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
10大批,我們現在大概佔2.4%嘛,對不對?是所以5%的概念是什麼?就是現在6千多億的國防預算就變成1兆2千多億如果是10%那就是2兆6千億左右我們的一年總預算就3兆,所以佔我們的總預算超過8成喔這樣的一個概念國防部有這樣想法嗎?會把它提這麼高嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11060.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11090.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
報告委員我想國防預算也要看我們國家的財政的狀況那也是全體大家的共識了那我們希望這個當然我們的國防預算是希望逐年成長尤其在現在的軍事環境的威脅情況下我想至於說如何去成長我認為還是看財政狀況未來的共識大家如何來去採取一個國防的共識現在2.5左右要提高到5有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11091.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11113.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
短時間我看大聲講不可能嘛因為其他都不要做了啊對不對那這個話應該讓川普知道啊他現在快當總統了要讓他知道啊結果我們現在都在這裡講然後你川普講的美國人都聽到啊你在這裡講美國人沒聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11115.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11133.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
來 蔡局長講一下有沒有辦法讓我們說短時間不可能到5%這個聲音你不能讓美國知道這尊重業管單位國防部的一些評估跟意見你國安局長也是要國防部的預算是國防部在規劃的那我請問你針對美國大選之後你們國安有沒有開過國安會就是說這個我們如何因應有沒有幾套劇本因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11141.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11143.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
是大概什麼時候會召開?召開你一定會到吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11162.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11189.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
對原則上都會到對那現在來講的話這個我們的外交部的次長他裡面的statement裡面講一個concern又講一個worry他就是關心川普會不會當選然後又擔心川普會當選這看起來川普當選世界任何的我看媒體的報導對台灣都是有很大的壓力這句話你同意不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11190.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11190.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
你會覺得他當選是個壓力嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11199.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11227.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
整體來講因為川普政府也曾經執政過那在川普政府執政期間那台灣方面不管跟國會跟行政部門溝通合作都非常的順暢他最大的一個問題外界認為他最大問題就是美國優先嘛喔原來是MMAG讓美國再次偉大就是他是一個勝利人就是我以美國為主所以國際上的周邊組織盡量能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11229.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11241.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
不要管就不要管,或者我要管就要付錢之類的所以有學者就提到了川普上來之後大概我們要加入CPTPP更困難的,這個你怎麼看? |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11242.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11268.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
對各方面的評估意見我們都有在收集跟參考那也跟委員說明一下我剛有提到在川普政府第一任期之內臺美的合作是非常的發展的非常的順暢那包括也是在川普的任內那四年那美國對台軍售制度化然後我沒有記錯在2020年川普政府時期派美國的軍艦穿越台海是達到13次是歷史新高這都有都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11268.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11289.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
不要忘了川普時代比拜登時代川普時代台灣買的像美國買的武器就所謂的軍購是拜登時代的三倍喔三倍之多阿所以大家都認為說川普當選之後阿他說增加台灣的保護費啦Pay for defense這個講保護費對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11291.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11314.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這是尊重委員的用語英文叫pay for defense 大家知道保護衛嗎保護衛這個意思就只有三條途徑第一個直接付錢像美國、日本、韓國因為有美軍住在該地所以直接付錢第二個那就是軍購我認為軍購一定會再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11315.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11328.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
第三個那就是台積電2.0、3.0多一點的台積電去那裡因為他說了台灣偷了他們的晶片所以呢這個讓台灣的晶片廠多一點去大陸設廠這個看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11330.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11330.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
你認為川普不會要我們提高國防軍備嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11351.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11369.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這部分可能後續還要再觀察,因為選舉期間的一些用語,確實不一定能夠落實到後續的政策的執行。可是他講MAGA,要讓美國再次偉大,他一定是更加的,或者我們這樣問好了,他上來以後會不會重新重啟了國際間的保護主義,會不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11372.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11390.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這方面討論很多啦,那我們會持續的來搜研我們有沒有因應?我們有沒有因應請問?我們有在搜研是包括兩個陣營不管誰當選總統,他未來不管是在國安或經貿的人事佈局,那這部分也都會影響後續的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11392.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11413.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
幾套的劇本?沒有幾套啦,就整個人事的布局,政策的走向,那以及後續他們可能在印太政策的主要施政重點在哪裡,那以及對台灣會產生哪些的影響,這大概都是我們讀的重點。以印太來講的話,台灣現在都沒辦法加入耶,IPF,台灣都沒辦法加入,如果川普來的話更不容易。最後一個我請教博副部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11417.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11441.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個我們軍購大家預估啦一定會買的更多的美國武器因為他過去已經有這個紀錄了嘛他的任內比川普比那個拜登多了三倍我們當然對台灣的防衛有幫助我們的還領可是我們人員不夠啊我們的報告裡面都寫啊我們的這個預算裡面都提到啊就是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11443.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11446.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
致願意啊!創新!這歷年來新低啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11448.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11477.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那我昨天問了這個顧部長他說你們正在研議要給志願役加薪有沒有什麼意思有是幅度怎麼樣啊現在還在研議當中因為這個牽扯到我剛才是特別強調就是說如何留住人才那合理的給留住我們志願役的這樣子的人才尤其在專長比例上來講我們在討論什麼專長是我們是非常需要的這樣加薪的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11477.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11495.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我在想你們要打出一個亮的口號現在志願役我們的少將旅長都還不如美國的一個中士薪水來講真的我們的志願役的薪水一定要大幅提升起薪有沒有可能像現在台積電招年薪百萬起跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11499.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11514.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我們最少你這個這一任賴清德總統協議以前2027年年薪破百萬護國生三我們要護國生兵啊破百萬有可能嗎有可能嗎來部長、副部長你講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11515.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11540.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
報告委員我想調心這件事情我還是必須要強調這還要看我們國家財政狀況來決定那另外一個就是說還有一個全面的共識那我想調心對我們軍人來講本來就是一種鼓舞我想這個是一個朝這樣子的方向來發展現在捷運的起薪多少錢嗎你告訴我捷運起薪依照各種不同的階級的標準都不一樣四萬塊左右啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11541.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11567.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
差不多啊,4乘以13.5,50幾萬嘛,對不對?那我說很快的調50%,目標2027破百萬,護國生三病護國生病,這樣子的話跟採集店爭取人才啊,怎麼樣?謝謝委員的關注,謝謝委員的關注,我想委員的關注對我們都是一種鼓舞,謝謝委員應該說樂見其成啊,我做球給你都不敢接 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11569.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11596.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對嗎?蔡局長對嗎?我這個建議不是很好你同意嗎?你的點頭同意?蔡局長說什麼?沒有,我尊重委員的意見尊重委員的意見要同意啦這個東西這是2027嘛你還找你現在同意做不到也沒有人會給你救責啊對不對但是最少要大幅提升啦不然的話買了這麼多武器沒有好的人來人都不夠啊沒人要來薪水太低嘛就是這樣講啊又有風險有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11598.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11598.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
臺灣有沒有可能引進傭兵制度? |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11622.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11629.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們這個都不評論這個東西我問你啊你這個政策有沒有規劃這個我們目前都沒有這樣子規劃是謝謝謝謝賴司保委員局長跟副部長請回那我們先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12049.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12062.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他開始開會王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在葉元之來了嗎要嗎葉元之 葉元之 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12078.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12101.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
葉元之委員 不在羅志強 羅志強 羅志強委員不在鄭正前 鄭正前 鄭正前委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12110.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12127.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
已經登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員、陳永康委員、劉建國委員、羅志強委員、王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12135.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12147.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者疫情相關單位與書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12160.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12172.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
現在請在場的委員我們大家先等一下請在場的委員楊瓊英委員然後我們上台質詢時間3分鐘謝謝主席各單位大家辛苦了請局長請局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12189.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12212.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好,謝謝主席,姚委員好局長好,我想請問,南北韓緊張情勢升溫那10月15號呢,突然來一個南北韓的經義縣東海縣,那連結鐵路、公路,引發了南韓實際的一個反制涉及那據聞呢,這個韓聯社也報導,北韓已經有修改憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12212.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12232.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
正式將南韓列為敵對的國家所以在這樣的情況之下請教局長那麼南北韓如果真打起來周邊的國家勢必大家都會有牽扯在這樣的情況之下我們怎麼樣去應對近期緊張的這個局勢怎麼樣保障我的安全呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12232.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12260.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
對,跟委員做個報告跟說明那現階段我們在評估北韓對外的挑釁認為是一個威懾的動作還不是要進入正式起戰的階段還沒有那他會在這階段對,恐嚇、恫嚇那會在這階段做這樣的操作主要是因為美國跟日本還有韓國這幾個月的那個安保軍事的合作變得越來越緊密那也進行了非常多的軍事演習那讓北韓有感受到壓力他必須要有一些回擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12263.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12271.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
北韓也希望在選前有這些挑釁的動作來累積到他選後跟美國新政府不管是哪一位上台相關溝通跟協商的籌碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12276.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12292.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
希望能夠透過這些動作讓美國新總統可以正視到北韓的問題那後續也可以在讓北韓在磋商過程當中可以讓美方不要再對北韓進行經濟的制裁那也能夠來承認北韓已經擁有核武跟導彈的一個地位的一個身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12293.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12314.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
本席聽到局長你的說法也就是我方也嚴正以待清楚目前的樣態到底是如何當然你剛才所說的是我方的認知但是我們還是要謹慎以對因為我們國家最重要的就是一定要安全知己知彼百戰百勝我們會持續跟周邊友好國家針對朝鮮半島的動態 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12322.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12333.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
對,區域的情勢我們會交換情質來掌控。對,局長公好,請國人放心。那接下來我要請教,也就是AI隨著Google等這些跨國企業,那麼同時呢,在我們本席要請教,針對於AI技術, |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12337.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12359.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個武器化衍生的新興挑戰我相信國安局你們也強力的跟世界來接軌那同時在AI資源情報作業的能力我們要怎麼樣有效的去防範淺蠢的這些國安的一個資料外洩也好的風險或者是我們的國安的這個威脅呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12360.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12364.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
對,這確實是一個很重要的問題,因為AI技術的運用,它不管在發動資安的攻擊,它會變得越來越快速,甚至是無差別的來攻擊。而且也可以透過AI來散發這種爭議的訊息,來擾亂我們的民心。所以對於這種AI技術運用在傳統的戰場上,或是資安,或是爭議訊息的戰場上,我們都有密切的在關注。 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12383.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12387.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們本局又成立相關AI研發的一個團隊來針對AI的應用用AI來因應AI的威脅那是我們目前在努力的方向因為我們透過AI還是可以去找出網路上你說你們成立這樣子的一個團隊是什麼時候成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12403.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12420.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
去年就成立了而且成立完之後我們成立的同時我們還有通過我們內部的發展AI的相關的作業規範也就是AI當然會帶來很多的便利性但它可能也有一些風險要小心怎麼竊密所以北界主體建議一定要滾動式去討論有的新的技術怎麼樣圍堵有的新的技術我們怎麼樣去接軌這是非常重要的謝謝委員來提醒我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12434.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12435.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
謝謝楊瓊怡委員．局長請回本日會議到此結束上會 |
| IVOD_ID |
16235 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16235 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-10 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-06T08:30:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-06T11:58:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |