| IVOD_ID |
162335 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162335 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-09T10:46:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-09T10:59:40+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b844592f505fe7cbb564cb7ba6a1b99ce3116a0d09c19d1471da6532dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
邱鎮軍 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:46:45 - 10:59:40 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
【詢答及審查】
【第二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【6月9日及11日二天一次會】） |
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邱政軍委員發言主席好我們請邱部長有請邱部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
19.843 |
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根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.837 |
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那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用對吧市長對嗎不好意思那剛剛那個市市長跟我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.075 |
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我說憲法 憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與資料的使用那我今天以一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
85.496 |
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109.314 |
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曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題啦是這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡啊那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次真的有通知機制嗎嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
113.305 |
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當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出 |
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130.65 |
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149.525 |
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不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去那個所以部長我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
151.686 |
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175.936 |
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所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子就是你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
176.816 |
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184.179 |
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申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
206.605 |
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221.651 |
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這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
225.373 |
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246.251 |
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我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
248.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.612 |
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政府當然有它政策上的需要對 如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對 那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
288.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
289.838 |
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303.765 |
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全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
306.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
325.365 |
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成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好 這個署長要不要回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
326.045 |
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350.643 |
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跟委員報告 這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
351.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
379.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
做目的外使用的時候的一些規範 制定 政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對 它是全國性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
401.903 |
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如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
404.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道 也要讓人民能夠選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
426.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
449.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
452.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
470.572 |
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我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
501.178 |
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我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
528.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
560.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
584.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
609.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
613.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
628.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
629.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
644.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
645.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
662.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
667.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
685.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
688.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
705.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是 這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個 這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
706.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
729.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
是 跟委員報告 其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則 但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢 然後又摸了書 真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定 他首先我們會給予他限期改正對 因為你這個 你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是 是誰該罰 是誰來罰 怎麼罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
752.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
753.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
772.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝 薛委員好 謝謝邱委員的好發言 |