| IVOD_ID |
162331 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162331 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-09T09:41:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-09T09:54:51+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b8445923745d550c201bcc5ba6a1b99ce3116a01e95dc6d29d716ba456fc9d313f45db15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林月琴 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:41:13 - 09:54:51 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
【詢答及審查】
【第二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【6月9日及11日二天一次會】） |
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來做懸檔麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長委員好部長早民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用那且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.229 |
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71.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
95.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上據憲判制第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第6條第1項第4款去識別化的規定本席認為健保的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
96.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
使用必須以國家公共利益為原利益目的原則為基礎並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則這個部長應該同意吧同意那現行有衛福部衛生資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年300件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
134.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
153.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
檢驗的檢查資料特定範圍的非結構性的資料比較新一年23件台灣是個學術研究發達的國家這樣的數字這樣的數量並不多預估通過後數量就會加倍那所以請問部長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
155.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
155.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
教育部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
189.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我想也應該是在開放的對象跟現在相同開放的對象跟現在相同而且這是要因為這是國內法所以要限制國內的所以一樣嗎學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
195.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
222.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的有清楚的有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
224.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
225.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
講清楚說明白嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
235.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
254.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們在第八條有明訂 那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關 那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
257.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據Checkpoint Research的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
304.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
306.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
324.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
326.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
344.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
347.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
367.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
368.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
393.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
394.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
402.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告 剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
439.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
442.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
470.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查 他都同樣某一個大學的 可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分 我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十 只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格 這個我們這些人來做對 我說他都同樣是這個學校的 可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分 當然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
471.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
471.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
480.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
499.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
501.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
513.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
517.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
541.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
542.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
563.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
565.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
579.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
581.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
603.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
604.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
630.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
632.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
649.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
包括資金的 經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
651.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
674.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
675.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
699.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
702.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
728.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
731.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
747.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
747.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
765.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
766.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
781.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
782.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
806.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
807.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
812.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我覺得要有 被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上 謝謝應該是這樣 謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹 謝謝好 謝謝 |