| IVOD_ID |
162227 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162227 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-04T11:43:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-04T11:59:29+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828eeea43223874a05955f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed2f1b30a7ea2913bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:43:37 - 11:59:29 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：
(一) 審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二) 審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。
(四) 審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。
(九) 審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
(十二) 審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、平均地權條例：
審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
我們在討論建築法之前我想本席也要跟您討論一下就是有關最近您引起的這個中正路改名的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
64.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
如果我没有听错的话前面好像有些委员在质询的时候那您这个中正路的改名好像是说是依据转型正义条例是不是是清除威权象征是法定义务在我们的促进转型正义条例的第五条跟第十一条之二里面有规定对是依据这个嘛对所以我们了解这个很多事情您是有所依据的 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
65.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那但是如果您说这个是法定义务这个是法定义务它是这个条例有规定跟法定义务好像不完全等号吧没有报告委员它是法定义务在11条之2里面11条之2 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
105.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是 他寫得非常清楚 他就直接點名在促轉會結束他的部分的這個階段性任務之後那有關於跟地方制度相關的包括道路的這個命名等等的就是由內政部來負責對啊 內政部負責 但是是有法律有規範跟他是法定義務不一樣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
134.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以它不見得是法定義務因為我跟你講如果是法定義務的話我請問你這個法定任務對是任務不是義務任務跟義務真的不一樣好所以是法定義務那任務所以那本席就要來繼續往下就是說那既然它是一個任務所以您要來做其實法律有規定我們也支持也應該要這樣做謝謝委員但是你要做的這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
136.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
153.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你有先去了解這個做下去你怎麼樣完善嗎還是你引起這個整個人民的生活包含地方政府的這個大混亂你有去了解嗎報告委員我想是這樣子第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
173.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
促轉條例在11條之2通過的時候已經是目前為止應該是兩年前跟三年前的事情所以當時這樣規範下來的話那內政部呢已經先做了一部分的處理這個一部分的處理就是我們在以前有報告他整一個的這個數據裡面提供參考就是說比較簡易的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
180.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
205.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
數項 數項 標項或者是這個部分能夠移除的就先移除那我所了解移除最多的很多人就是把數項移到桃園大溪你現在在執行的路名那路的部分呢在我們委託南台科技大學裡面他有提到這是第四個模式那第四個模式裡面呢剛剛我有跟部分委員報告過目前為止我們統計出來大概會有三百多件好 沒關係我現在要了解的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
205.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
231.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
他執行 就是我們要做一件事所有不管是地方政府中央政府我們大概都會預判嘛你怎麼做才會完善而且你很多東西你要預估你怎麼樣這樣下去不是突然間造成很大的混亂又達不成嘛是 我了解委員的用意所以我有提到到目前為止有在進行更改入名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
232.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
259.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
您知道有沒有成功的案例凱達格蘭大道對 只有凱達格蘭大道我們大家知道因為它牽扯著住戶啊還有有用到凱達格蘭大道的身份證或人民生活太少了嘛凱達格蘭大道真的我這點本席也就本席的了解也是它最成功那現在你要求各縣市政府去進行有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
260.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
279.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
报告委员我们不敢要求我特别提到说中央政府要跟地方政府要沟通那你是由上而上还是由上而下按照地方制度法是由下而上对嘛由下而上那一定是地方有共识他才会做嘛是不是那现在如果地方没共识你会硬推吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
280.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
295.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我沒有第一個我第一個沒有法則然後第二個我剛剛有提到轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義社會溝通那我剛剛有特別提到說如果造成對立就表示說我們的溝通不是很完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
295.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
312.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
或者是實施的不完整才會造成一些實施要看各地方政府因為很多地方政府他們的街道改名的機制有他們的自治準則一定要溝通完整嘛社會有共識而且由下而上目前有 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
312.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
335.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
任何一個區域有這樣的符合這樣的情況嗎我剛有跟委員報告過你說台南是嗎現在我知道的台南那其實更早台南OK那就這樣台南嘛你答案就是台南嘛是那更早以前在那台南實施的情況你有了解嗎就台南實施下去台南的部分的話他們也是天怒人怨而且好像做到現在做在2022年開始做到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
358.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他做了170公尺之後他就很難往下黃偉哲市長他特別說接下來他要以衝擊最小爭議最少的區域來優先逐步推動不求一次到位他是希望達成這個目標但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
381.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他也發現說不容易而且現在整個的戶政還有整個的地圖系統各方面整個混亂啦民眾生活整個被受不受影響我們還沒有改怎麼會有混亂呢有心要推動那慢慢來推動然後有共識這是我們基本的想法所以我剛剛有特別提到你程序正義上一定要合法合規那轉型正義條例已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
384.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
385.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
還有社會溝通不要產生政黨之間的對立現在就是不要造成民怨還有民眾的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
424.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡第一個轉型正義條例已經是2017年從第八第九屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論而且他已經是成案我現在講的是執行面執行面所以現在你入民更改難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
425.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
452.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我沒有問你我只是你心裡想一下所以我不用回答對這個影響到人民生活非常多那已經有實施的台南市他都發現哇不行緩下來那所以我還是認同但是他沒有停止啊他是緩步推動緩步推動能夠有社會共識所以我非常了解包括所以你認同嘛對台南市我還沒有請你回答所以我才說我們是協助地方政府我沒有說一步到位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
453.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
476.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以我們現在是在討論所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識然後才能進行但是如果強推的結果就是造成台南他自己有感受到真的不好推更重要我要講的是我們做任何事你的各方面的完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
477.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
498.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那包含剛剛也很多人提到我想你的經費你大概也要預估一下我的時間的關係我就不跟你再往下你經費如果你真的全國要推你的經費有沒有到位你自己要去這個衡量再來就是報告委員他是用基金預算你那個基金對我有看一下你知道你那個基金現在有多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
499.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
517.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你知道嗎基金預算不是說有多少錢基金預算就是說你本與你的任務需求在申請的時候基金就有這個一個他的一個審查文會然後他會在編列的時候把它放進去你是不是用促轉基金嘛是那是國發會主管的對促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
518.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
534.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那是國發會的不是說有多少錢不是他不是用他不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行你基金需要多少錢他會再撥進去跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的就本席了解他那個基金好像是從好像國民黨那個黨產弄過來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
565.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
妳確定是撥補的嗎在促短條例裡面是這樣子沒有錯而且我所了解是有經費但是經費有多少我還需要細查報告所以那這樣好了會後請你提供你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告說總共全國如果要改中正路有多少條然後那你估一下要多少錢你會後估了一下要多少錢全國整個下去要多少錢你再提供給我們我相信你現在說不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
565.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
577.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
要多少錢因為這是要地方政府報上來不是由我們去幫他預估因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾那以前的台中市在處理台灣大道的時候他們所用的經費是幾百萬好 現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
581.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
609.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
如果說中正路要改名我問你那台北市中正區還有像那個中正國小中正大學中正高中甚至如果說經國路也要改的話經國管理學院我們中正一分局甚至經國號戰機是不是要改所以除了好像不只內政部那這樣教育部國防部這個都要改吧是不是都要進行改名啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
611.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
638.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
是 但是我現在在內政部就是我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務我來處理的所以最後針對這個部分我想我一個結論就是說希望內政部不要不管食物報告我內政部的事情真的是非常的多而雜不是完全噁心殺或者吃飽沒事幹的中正堂改名你應該沒有社會共識吧你應該就是下命令吧中正堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
643.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
671.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
中正堂改名哪裏的中正堂不是中正紀念堂沒有沒有我們只有處理那個街道那個巷弄啊這個是沒有沒有如果地方有中正兩個字的我跟你講我的選區裏面他有一個活動中心叫中正堂他們就反應不勝其擾啊你們每年都公文去然後他們呢老實講地方沒共識他還是得回你嘛公務單位所以他就他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
672.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
689.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有一點呼嚨的草率也回應了所以這一塊如果這個要有共識的那我想你這個他們到現在沒動但你內政部函詢已經很多次而且要求他每年的進度要回報這個公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
691.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
704.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以我只是強調我們做任何事真的我們支持但是合法合理之外還要顧及我們民眾的感受不好意思最後這個建築法我問簡單兩個問題一個就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
708.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
732.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
建築法56條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度那內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府了那可是我們看到整個全國近五年整個零損的案例非常非常的多你授權地方政府你授權地方政府但實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
734.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
745.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好像為什麼不我們中央來統一我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話那我們整個把它規範好為什麼不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
746.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
771.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
原因是什麼?根文報告啦,因為其實這樣的條文在簡單來講就是說過去107年曾經討論過但是其實當時就引發非常多爭議就是在所謂的第三方勘驗的一個執行單位到底是建築師、土木技師、結構技師那是在什麼樣的程度下去介入那後來因為各個工會的見解也不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
771.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
790.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那地方政府的見解不一所以後來大家才同意說不要放在母法而是授權地方政府依實務看看哪個階段需要是哪個工會是哪些單位去做那這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務而不要強制在56條直接去加當時的概念是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
806.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不是在實務你還是可以在法條中依據實務給他一個應該這麼說因為這樣反而給地方政府他比較有實際上的權限因為地方政府他本來就有這樣的一個狀況現在地方政府的話產生的問題很大吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
808.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
833.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
公文報告很多所謂的臨損它其實是過程中而不是在勘驗階段的成果所以勘驗是指它過程的結果其實更大的爭議就是說對於建築的建設公司要求完善這一塊我們中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令因為其實這個發生在各縣市都很多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
835.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
862.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
包含天坑各方面的事件也跟我們報告啦因為其實過程當中的問題是最難去處理就是說因為譬如說像我們沒關係啦那我們這樣我們討論法條的時候再來最後最後一題啦現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整沒有人力也是空談我們發現我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多但報道率都大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
863.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
865.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不到三分之一這個問題凸顯什麼問題也跟我們報告啦其實它有很多面向的問題啦現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題建築實務上來講就是說民間的待遇可能都比較高這也是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
882.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
907.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那部長有沒有可能這個待遇有沒有可能公務人員都一致在工程會跟人事總署在上個月有開會我們也有表達一些意見就是說對於這一個專業的加級然後對於這一個職等的調升或者是對於相關月聘僱人員勞務承攬人員的一個待遇的提升我們都有提供一些建議給 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
910.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
937.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
給這個人總跟這個工程會你剛剛講了一堆但是現在我們的公務人員而且是專業的那我們需求的是正式的缺額的我都補不足了所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急不然你一次全部要他當然不會答應我們也有包含所謂剛剛講的月聘僱人員因為有些地方這種他會需要用到月聘僱人員那甚至有些是勞務承攬人員我想我們這都有提供一些建議了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
939.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
947.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但是我們絕對不要還是要繼續爭取啦不然你這樣問題還是很大嘛沒錯 這個我們還是會持續去爭取的謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信委員 |