| IVOD_ID |
162200 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162200 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-04T10:13:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-04T10:25:22+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828cd99ef452605e2de55f40b4dcc086d9f1b0714f80b9af8b5d60d33a093d294555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張宏陸 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:13:10 - 10:25:22 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：
(一) 審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二) 審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。
(四) 審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。
(九) 審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
(十二) 審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、平均地權條例：
審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】） |
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我先請署長吳署長有請主長其實今天我們要討論的這些不管很多建築法或平均地權條例其實很多我覺得都有道理從各個角度去看都有道理但如果把它入法在母法裡面寫這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
37.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
65.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
很多的因地制宜的這個好像又沒有了咧不知道署長你的看法對其實我們其實就整個建築法的修法來講我們其實長期的方向應該是盡可能在某些條件只做原則性的揭示那盡可能尊重地方因為建管畢竟是地方的這個權責地方的權責為主所以我們有些部分是希望由授權地方政府來因地制宜會比較妥適一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
67.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
81.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
因地制宜其實也是個彈性啦我舉一個啦齁如果說署長沒有拿到死照的房子是合法房屋嗎應該是說他有一些是屬於早期不不不 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
83.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
98.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我先問你 如果是新蓋的房子新蓋的那當然他沒有辦法合法他如果拿不到死罩的應該說是沒有拿到是拿不到死罩拿不到死罩那通常就代表他在建築設計上是可能有違反相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
99.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
128.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
可能違反安全規定 可能違反什麼 也有很多啊對不對是 也有可能違反土地使用規定 很多有對 好 我們先不用管他違反使用規定啦有可能他的這一些安全措施或什麼的所以他拿不到死照那如果是在獨匯區裡面如果我們通過了他會不會用這個法律的條文去要求地方政府先給他接水電會不會有這種情況發生也是有可能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
131.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
應該有很大的可能吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
133.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
157.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
對啦 因為他的狀況真的大家都不太一樣對嘛 如果你設多位區的話應該有很大的可能那他如果接的水電的話 我跟你講可能他沒有拿到實照 很多人可能就會偷偷搬進去他可以以工地的方式或什麼 他可能可以在裡面喔就可以生活囉應該有些是 最重要還有一些是屬於營業據點的違規營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
188.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我本來還要再講你先講違規營業跟違規入住都有可能對嘛最主要我本來就要問如果是一個商場或營業的他沒有拿到死照他如果可以接水電他可以做很多事情沒錯對不對所以我覺得你如果入法的話會有非常大的問題因為你母法已經規定了這樣也會衍生很多的問題喔包括交屋包括什麼的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
189.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
196.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個署長如果是這樣的話以後你們國土署跟地方政府要怎麼處理這些問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
198.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
222.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
喔 可是目前來講違反建築法跟接水接電它是沒有相關的直接對接關係你違反建築法不不不 我只說它只是還沒拿到死罩啊是對不對你也不能認定它百分之百違法啊在它還沒拿到死罩之前它就可以接水電它可以做很多事喔但是因為你沒有我只問你一個試營運的時候要不要拿到死罩 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
223.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
247.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
試營運的時候要拿到死罩因為你正常營運的話是一定要拿到死罩我就說試營運啦有沒有拿到死罩因為營運的話你有營業行為一樣反正就是要拿到死罩才可以試營運嘛只要使用就是要拿到那我如果在其他的不是六都裡面我可能我就借這個漏洞我先拿到水電我也沒有說我要營運啊是歐洲門開著啊你要進來啊會不會有這種情況發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
252.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
275.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
過去的確尤其在某些地方大概農地違章工廠這個狀況是比較嚴重是特別的嚴重我就說樣態很多太多了所以其實要解決問題我認為都要解決但如果你只把它入母法我覺得這個危險性太大了那我再請這個複稅署的副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
280.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
304.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
副稅主陳副署長有請其實我們今天也有講到就是說吳署長也有你的事喔今天有一個說公眾通行的法定空地、私設公路、開放空間享有地下稅減免我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
305.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
327.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
有些部分確實需要去處理但如果入母法會有我剛說的那個問題發生我想請問一下101有沒有法定空地有對不對那他的法定空地他有沒有目前有沒有工人無償的通行 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
329.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
352.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有沒有 有啦 一定有啦 101那麼大怎麼可能會沒有只是有沒有全部 但他還是有啊 對不對那他沒有全部 但我依法令通過 我依這個 我要求我減美他就不用繳地價稅 如果101可以這樣子不用法令空地可以不繳地價稅 你們覺得合理嗎你們覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
356.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
378.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
應該這麼說啦因為所有的這一種所謂的開放空間或是法定空地它當時依照建築法規定的時候它其實只是限縮它的興建空間並不代表說它因此而受損那包含它無廠工種種通行它本來就是也是認定是它的責任之一這也是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
378.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
384.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有些尤其是開放公簽它是因此而取得容積獎勵的那這個關鍵就變成說你相關的權利跟義務關係是對等的狀況下又去主張所謂的減稅那其實在這種所謂的行使權利義務的對等關係上來講是比較說不過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
414.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我舉這個例子其實例子是有兩極啦101這個大家絕對都不同意吧都覺得101你怎麼可能可以不繳嗎這是一個那再來你的法定空地還有什麼還是不是你的私人成全 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
415.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
435.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
是嘛 未來如果要重建未來或怎麼樣的 都還是私人土地嘛是不是啊那未來還可以都跟分配回來啊對嘛 是嘛齁所以啦 我覺得啦 這一個要解決問題你如果把它入母法裡面啦 你會衍生出更多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
438.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
為什麼要請複稅組其實我們現在的這個土地稅法裡面其實就有規定了吧對不對那我們如果要解決有一些比如說比較不是都會區裡面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
480.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那我們用土地稅法來處理應該是比較直接也比較快吧副署長跟委員報告因為在土地稅減免規則裡面本來就有規定說是無償公共通行的道路它本來就是免地價稅那這個部分是因為法控的部分在112年經過憲法法院來判決認定的時候其實法控沒有免地價稅是沒有違反平等原則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
480.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
484.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那他這個只是在判決的最後面有負擔說他如果有超過他應該要超過他的法令控制範圍的時候因為他可能無償公共通行大過他的法令控制範圍的時候希望我們去考量一下那這個部分我們有真的有跟內政部在密切合作在做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
499.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
511.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就是還是要請法定公立所有權人去申請分更如果能夠分得出來說哪一個部分是屬於公眾通行的話其實是經過認定完之後用凸檢的規定就可以來做一個處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
514.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
反正我認為啦現在用土地稅法用什麼的可以處理這些問題也不用再來入母法我的意思是這樣但這些問題要不要解決我認為要解決啦還是必須要解決但是如果我們現在馬上就入母法就會產生101的問題101它可以合法你就是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這樣子對全國來講我覺得會有不公平的地方是 我也補充另外一個概念這是在實務上的問題就是說當你出去所謂無場公 公眾通行的時候就現在的狀況 你有些原來是私設通路也是屬於你產權的部分經過一定的時效以後使用人 也就是說使用這條道路的人也是可以主張他變成現有巷道 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
566.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
584.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這是在地方舉證現有向到實務上非常嚴重的一個問題也就是說我們在過去地方處理的經驗上發生過原本只是私設通路但是因為私設通路是供特定人使用但是你一旦同意開放成無償提供公眾通行 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
585.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
607.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
據一定時效就會變成人家可以主張這是現有向道現有向道會影響你未來這本身基地的產權範圍跟你的申請建築範圍還有你申請法控的權利這都會衝擊這個都知道嘛你公共通行久了幾十年之後為什麼你變成了既有向道了就是對你原來的所有權利就會產生影響對所以我說這個問題要解決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
612.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
630.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不能不解決啦今天這個我覺得方向是對的但我的意思是說可以不用修平均距離的條例修其他的法律就可以解決了你如果修平均距離的條例就會說我說的101的現象這點大家要去深思要去思考啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
632.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
650.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個樣態有太多啦都會區的跟非都會區的也有很多啦然後有的呢在透過土地買賣他可能地級熟了他也不知道之前是怎樣結果又變成這樣這些我覺得都應該要去解決人民的困擾那如果你繼承鄉道你也有很多現在是繼承鄉道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
651.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
670.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你政府還沒徵收啊你政府還沒徵收你沒那寫繼承相當你政府沒有徵收你還是有的地方他如果地主不知道他也沒申請他沒有申請有的還是傻傻的繳稅也是有這種啊對不對所以我覺得這個問題要解決但我在這邊就是說解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
671.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
699.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
要不要修母法 大家要考慮一下 不然全台灣都適用這個我覺得要這個啦 柏霖你柏霖你覺得這樣一句話就好了我同意張委員的看法啦原則上因為還有法控如果要減免地價稅的話是地方稅那我們也確實詢問過所有的地方政府 他們都不是很同意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
701.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
720.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
地方稅收多不多我覺得那是一件事情我們今天是要解決合理跟不合理張委員講的我們是解決合理跟不合理就不要再平均地權條例處理我只是擔心你真的在這邊修了真的我剛講的101就不用繳稅了這一點大家要思考一下這部份你聽得到嗎我聽得到我同意張委員的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
728.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
728.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好,謝謝張宏洛委員 |