| IVOD_ID |
16217 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16217 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-22-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-30T08:31:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-30T12:05:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:33:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373db2ea4a3bfaaca62b4f0709a7fb2e74830202062f76816a179fb082a9095444775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、 審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。
二、 審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。
三、 審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。
四、 審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。
五、 審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。
六、 審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。
七、 審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。
八、 審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。
(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)
【10月30日及31日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:19 - 12:05:00 |
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164.461 |
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164.943 |
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等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1749.087 |
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1761.887 |
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報告委員會出席委員14人以主法定人數現在開會本週三、四為一次會首先進行報告事項請議事員先宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1763.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1786.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議．事由．中華民國113年10月23日上午9時至下午1時23分．中華民國113年10月24日上午9時至11時41分．地點本院群閑楼101會議室．初期委員林慶琦委員等15人．列席委員陳金輝委員等34人．列席人員10月23日文化部部長黎元受同有關人員． |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1786.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1814.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
十月二十四日國立公共國務院院長蕭宗黃帥同有關人員主席萬昭級委員美玲十月二十三日話後事項一宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定二文化部部長李遠列席報告一後該況並被質詢本一程由委員林倩琦等27人提出質詢軍事文化部部長李遠及相關人員進行答覆說明另由委員高金素美等2人提出書面質詢決定一報告及詢討完畢二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1814.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1834.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分。請相關機關介述以順便答覆。通過臨時提案以下。4月24日報告事項。國立顧問博弈院長肖宗煌列席報告優官和並備質詢。本日曾由委員洪光凱等15人集中質詢。捐贈國立顧問博弈院院長肖宗煌及相關委員及其答覆說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1835.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1849.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
立由委員吳春成提出書面質詢。決定一、報告簡訊到完畢。二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料六、記錄並刊登公報。三、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分。請相關機關技術與書面答覆。宣禮完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1854.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1870.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因為在場委員未答,議決人數3人,所以議事錄我們暫不處理。今天的議程是審查不義遺址保存條例相關草案、共期案、第案、行政院函請審議不義遺址保存條例草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1871.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1871.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
不義遺址保存條例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1888.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1906.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第五案委員蔡奕宇等18人擬具、「不義遺址保存條例草案。」案。第六案委員吳佩儀等24人擬具、「不義遺址保存條例草案。」案。第七案委員黃婕等18人擬具、「人權紀念長職保存條例草案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1907.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1910.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
今天僅進行詢答討論事項八委員張雅玲等23人提案因未獲議事處來函不予審查首先我們介紹在場目前有那個洪孟楷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1926.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1951.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
其次我們介紹與會的官員有我們文化部部長李源是小野先生還有我們的政務次長李靖惠政務次長王石思常務次長徐怡君還有我們原住民族委員會教育文化處副處長邱文龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1954.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1978.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
教育部學生事務及特殊教育司司長吳林輝國家發展委員會檔案管理局專門委員王仲賢內政部民政司檢任視察檢譽金內政部警政署候請主副組長黃維明 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1982.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2003.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
內政部國土署督記組組長廖耀東法務部參事汪南君法務部剿政署副署長林明達行政院人權及轉型正義處處長賴俊照現在我們先請提案委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2013.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2019.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那個黃婕委員是不是要做提案說明?好,那就請黃婕委員做提案說明。OK,哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2028.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2055.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 謝謝主席還有在場所有委員大家好因為在我的版本裡面其實有特別強調人權遺址的部分因為其實不義遺址是基於國家威權統治時期非常重要的空間但是現在都沒有一部專法來處理不義遺址的審議跟保存文化的相關工作所以其實我也有提出相關的版本希望可以落實我們國家對於轉型正義的承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2056.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2076.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那在我的版本裡面有幾個重點第一個名稱的部分我的法案名稱其實跟目前的版本定的不一樣我是定為人權紀念長旨那主要是為了避免說私有的產權對於本法有一些抗拒的心理也希望也更多人加入來保存活化的行列 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2077.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2101.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
更重要的是希望可以擴大本法的使用範圍包括說不義遺址是另一種另外一種是這些在當中的行動者他們的相關的長職也應該要加入活化的行列包括政治受難者廣義抵抗國家暴力的場所我認為這些場所也有轉型正義價值的空間也應該被納入本法使用的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2103.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2131.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第二個是加強行政機關的權責因為文化部除了要保存不義遺址之外也需要會同教育的主管機關來推動不義遺址相關轉型正義的工作來全面落實保存跟活化第三個是保障原住民族的權益因為在審議人權相關遺址的時候如果該事件的空間涉及原住民族的個案審議會的組成也應該要納入原住民族相關的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2132.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2152.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第四個加強私有產權者加入保存活化行列的動機因為這個也是這一次最難處理也應該要被處理的部分應該要要求主管機關參著現在的文資保存相關的辦法制定申請容積轉移或者是補助相關的條件來鼓勵大家多多的活化保存 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2153.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2180.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
最後轉型正義的工程其實是跟時間賽跑不義遺址的消失就是再次重演國家的不義所以希望我們可以一起努力趕快來完成審議讓不會在這個法治化的工作完成之後馬上可以執行相關的審定以及保存的作業把這些空間一個一個都找出來讓過去威權統治的歷史可以被記得以上我的提案說明謝謝主席謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2183.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2204.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
謝謝黃婕委員的提案說明另外我也簡單說明一下其實我的部分就是三個部分跟行政院的不一樣第一個是加強教育應該要會同教育主管機關推廣轉型正義的教育第二個是涉及到審議涉及原住民個案的時候應該額外聆聘個案所設的原住民族的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2205.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2228.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第三、「必要時採用現代科技及工法,加強其防震、防災、防潮、防築等機能及存序連線,但應維持其歷史價值與轉型爭議的意義。」其他比較小的部分我就不在這邊說明了。謝謝。在場並沒有其他提案委員在。我們接著就請文化部李部長進行報告。報告時間5分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2240.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2268.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好今天因大院教育及文化委員會來邀請就行政院函請審議的不義遺址保存條例草案以及各位委員提出的草案進行報告及詢答我感到很榮幸不義遺址指的就是威權統治時期國家為了達成鞏固威權統治的目的侵害人權事件的發生地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2269.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2290.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
包括包括激壓、審判、刑囚、監禁、處決等場所。包括激壓、審判、刑囚、監禁、處決等場所。文化部訂定獨立專法,嚴尼不義遺址保存條例草案,期待藉由保存發生歷史事件的空間,把台灣的人權故事傳承給下一代。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2291.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2316.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
不義遺址保存條例草案在今年的7月18日行政院決議通過並函請立法院審議草案重點主要包括第一不義遺址是從中華民國34年8月15到81年11月16威權統治期間國家不法侵害人權事件的發生地點 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2317.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2344.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第2定名此條例的主管機關是文化部。第3根據不義遺址的空間現況嚴理制定、修復、保存、研究、活化跟展示以及辦理活動等等。針對不義遺址屬於私人財產的部分我們應尊重所有全人的意願以獎勵補助的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2345.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2363.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
徒導私人保存活化。第四、訂明公有之不義遺址管理維護責任及損毀的罰則。以下,我們就各位委員所提的修正版本進行回應跟說明。敬請各位委員指正。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2365.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2380.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
范雲委員張雅琳委員所提的草案內容針對不義遺址保存作為定名於必要時的現代科技與工法,增加不義遺址防災能力,林宜瑾委員提案, |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2381.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2403.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
定名中央主管機關代行處理機制環節委員提案定名私有的不義遺址的申請容積轉移以及張雅玲委員提案主管機關優先購買權等規定我們敬表尊重建議未來審查時與行政院版本並同討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2404.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2424.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
鄭天財委員提案草案第三條擴大依促進轉型正義條例所定義的威權統治時期及不義遺址的時期跟範圍包括清代與日本政府以武力征伐原住民的青亥發生地 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2425.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2450.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
由於促進轉型正義條例是針對威權統治已有明確的定義與範圍建議以行政院版本草案審查。蔡易宇委員吳佩儀委員提案的草案內容與行政院版本一致建議並同審查。黃潔委員提案草案第三條第二款新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2451.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2462.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
人權紀念空間的類別擴大不義遺址的涵蓋範圍由於條件認定標準善待討論建議依行政院版本審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2463.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2482.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後我們要向大院報告雖然不義遺址保存的專法尚未通過但是我們已經啟動潛在不義遺址的調查跟研究輔導及補助公有不義遺址的設置不義遺址的標示牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2482.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2497.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
另外也持續補助各縣市政府辦理不義遺址調查研究並且推動人權展覽、教育推廣、國際合作交流與人權事務發展提升民眾對於不義遺址的認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2498.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2518.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
感謝各位委員關注保存不義遺址並不吝提出相關草案版本期望本次立法得以順利完成使我國轉型正義及不義遺址的保存工作得以更加落實以上說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2528.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2540.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好,謝謝李部長的口頭報告。現在我們進行詢答。每位出席委員質詢6分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘,發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分。委員如有臨時提案, |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2547.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2565.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員吳春成質詢結束後即進行處理。處理提案時若提案委員聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理。首先我們請發言登記第一位的洪孟楷委員質詢。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2577.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2604.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
請禮部長。部長好。候委員你好。本席剛特別聆聽你的這個草案內容跟立法目的。其中講到說空間文活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省建立保障人權守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教促轉條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2606.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2628.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2629.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2631.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以他是促進轉型正義條例的延伸? |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2650.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2665.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2666.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2684.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2684.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2709.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係我沒有說延伸我是說他你要不要回來來來主席時間暫停一下要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2711.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2728.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2729.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2742.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2744.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2760.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2761.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2773.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2791.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2808.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
議員,那我們有沒有一些不義的事情發生?民國34年到38年是發生二二八事變的時間,所以民國38年以後有白色恐怖。那34年以前日本統治台灣的時候,發生過很多不義的事,但是它不在我們這個條例之內。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2813.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2841.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2843.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2846.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安撫2023年92歲離開了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2850.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2876.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2878.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2896.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
而未安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權管2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2898.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2910.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍,認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2911.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2936.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有228事件。34年以前還有很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2936.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2964.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存? |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2966.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2974.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2977.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2986.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的未安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那你剛剛也提到啦38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括未安婦 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3003.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3028.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
未安婦事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍? |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3029.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3050.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史,來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3052.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3076.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3077.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3099.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3101.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3103.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
«不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3126.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3141.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我相信你也認同。我們現在有富裕的台灣社會,我們有中華民國113年,都是過去所有人累積下來。所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得。我們不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3142.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3160.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這一個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3161.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3178.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以慰他們在天之靈所做推動。謝謝林,謝謝。部長請回,謝謝洪孟楷委員提醒一下婦女團體希望正名為軍事性奴隸,謝謝。再來我們請林倩琦委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3197.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3198.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
今天本席的質詢主題是誰的不義? |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3218.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3236.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
過去幾週本席一直有跟您這邊提到文化政策應該要包容才不會落入另外一種威權所以本席一直希望能夠用多元的方式來擴大歷史範疇的方式來處理我國的人權問題在面對處理過去歷史上的人權是需要謹慎的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3238.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3263.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為這涉及我們未來的文化發展跟現在的族群和解甚至是政策的公平性和政府的責任所以剛才孟凱委員這邊有提到那我這邊也有資料監察院的調查報告告訴我們轉型正義工作的重點我再重提一次瞭解與揭露真相避免重蹈覆轍和以理解來開啟和解的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3264.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3287.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以我們如果在正義這一方的這個論戰我真的要問的是誰的正義好請您記得我今天的主題所以剛才我們一直討論您今天法規上所定義的威權時期請你們好好審慎的去處理這個問題好首先我要問到一個問題就是如果從原住民的視角那不義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3288.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3316.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們看到的是早來這個土地的在排擠晚來的。晚來的甚至現在壓迫原本在這個島上的。這樣的壓迫不平是不是要納入不義的定義?好那今天你們給本席的這個相關的回應那也就針對某一個時期我想剛才孟凱委員也提到我想接下來很多委員都會提到所以要問的是這個轉型正義是針對某些人或某些時期的選擇性記憶嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3319.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3341.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那如果要這樣講以政權來講熱蘭征程1624年荷蘭人也就是現在的尼德蘭人建立的時候那我們就已經在外來的勢力下經歷過剝削與壓迫在這塊土地上的人好那難道沒有人經歷這個課徵重稅強迫勞役而且還被軍事鎮壓的階段嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3346.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3361.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
如果不義遺址只能如你們所講的終戰以後才開始的話那請問歷史上的不義你們又怎麼去詮釋呢?難道現在全世界的有關於猶太人被屠殺的博物館是在終戰之後嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3366.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3374.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
1867年的羅發號事件導致了美方跟狼牙18社的南甲之盟這個範疇你們怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?牡丹社事件之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3381.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3402.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
在1874年,清朝就為了這個事件以後開始開山撫帆。進入了原住民的區域之後,建立了防疫、土牛溝等隔離的設施。這些保護的設施也是隔離跟壓迫。你要怎麼去詮釋它呢?不義嘛!誰的不義? |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3403.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3415.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
日治實體的壓迫更是有系統性的。我們都知道的1914年的泰魯閣事件、30年的霧社事件,那這不是日本政府對我們的壓迫嗎?那莫那魯道集體帶族人自殺的地方,你們要怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?總統府的前身,台灣總督府, |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3431.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3445.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這是日治時期最高的權力他有沒有壓迫我們那你要不要叫總統府不義遺址還是你要學韓國把全台灣的不義遺址都除掉你們想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3448.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3474.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以史官應該是家法本席已經提到了很多次在跟您質詢的時候不義遺址這件事還是請你記得你的承諾所以這個不義遺址的名稱適合嗎目前我們適合怎麼討論這個問題我們是不是在人權場域中學習這整個事件是不是一個人權的概念那人權應該怎麼被討論怎麼被詮釋我還是那句話誰的不義 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3478.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3501.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
好,所以我們是不是可以涵蓋更多一點還有一個很實際的問題現在你們目前所謂的不義遺址有一些見物不見了有一些是私人財產這個產權被關以不義如果今天是你家那我不知道部長你怎麼回應我你覺得如果你家被關為不義你怎麼看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3503.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3504.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個部分可不可以請您先回應? |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3533.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3533.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
擬具鄭天財Sra |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3535.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3563.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
謝謝部長所以也請記得還是要記得您剛才給紅委員的承諾法定重來這件事是給文化部一個展現你專業的機會所以我這邊呼籲我希望能夠全面正義而不是選擇性的正義重新定義這個名詞面對歷史部長我們不能片面化也不能選擇性的只記住某些時期忽略其他時期的痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3563.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3578.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
今天這個條例我希望它不會讓未來更分裂不要讓各個族群會感到不同形式的壓迫史觀應該是家法發生過的我們就記住它 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3580.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3605.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
從這裡面去學習。這個不義遺址我希望不要太不容易被紀念因為紀念這些歷史創傷然後有的時候你會讓我們覺得我已經被加害的人還要接受加害者的視角究竟這是在還原歷史掩蓋歷史還是選擇性操作還是本席之前講的另一種威權 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3606.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3610.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
最後還是回到正題,誰是不正義的一方?部長,您要針對我剛才的部分做回應嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3621.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3640.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我覺得在歷史上我剛才有強調加害者跟被害者然後您剛才提到那個原住民的事情每一件事情都被拍成電影過比如說斯卡羅還有就是斯卡羅這個已經拍過的我想大家都有很多討論跟詮釋那如同剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3644.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3654.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
本委員所講的。那我們希望記住您的未來的推動能夠在全世上考慮到所有的視角。最後、今、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3668.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3695.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
改提拉安等19人保存條例草案 案 案。請記住他們是誰呀?誰是不義的一方?任何對原住民的剝奪,不公不義,不分時期,都是不義。請我們從人權的概念中學習吧! |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3701.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3717.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝。謝謝委員的指教。希望我們未來也可以用這些題材拍電影,永遠記得這些不義的事情。謝謝。好,那個部長請回喔。好,那,欸等一下。好,那再來我們請柯智恩委員質詢。好,OK。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?好,有請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3731.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3742.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
部長好,我們今天審不義遺址的保存條例我想我們先來證明一下因為目前不管是立法院的法治局還有很多監委還有很多專家的看法他認為不義這個名詞聽起來是非常的負面而且很容易造成反彈那我們在講說遺址呢我們根據國語詞典的這個定義來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3752.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3764.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3764.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3769.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3787.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3791.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢雖然不是你 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3807.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3836.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3837.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3844.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不一定有不正義的另外一方所以用這個正義這個名詞不義這個名詞還是用人權歷史場域更為妥善這是我們未來在逐條審查的時候會來做一個討論然後呢文化部開始什麼時候來做一個文化遺址的調查了做了多久花費多少部長我還是要幫你稍微review一下因為促轉會也做了很多不義遺址的踏查請問你們的調查跟他們的踏查差別在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3863.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3865.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除了剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3883.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3890.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3901.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3911.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性專標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3929.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3938.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這一點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3943.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3963.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家? |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3964.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3979.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊。你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來。我們都有外聘評審委員。你給我完全更清楚的資料。我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3979.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3985.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4010.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4021.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4024.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4042.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
對不起,我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分,私有的部分,但是私有被你們公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意,但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾? |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4043.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4057.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4067.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4076.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第3會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第4會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第5會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第6會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第7會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第8會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第9會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第10會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4094.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4110.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
剛才的信誓照表可能一併都要告訴我你們預算未來該這個條例通過之後可能會是如何還有很重要就是很多前面兩個委員都非常關切的為什麼你花了這麼多錢你的所重視的轉型正義為什麼只限定在34年8月15號到81年11月6號 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4113.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4116.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4131.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4152.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我們的桃竹苗的我們的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多少的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要? |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4158.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4165.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要貼上跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4177.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4195.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋他不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4197.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4204.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有地址那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4221.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4239.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4240.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4243.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4264.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4278.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。好,部長請回,謝謝柯智恩委員,再來我們請陳培宇委員質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4294.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4294.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4303.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4326.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
陳委員你好部長早安我們來快速切入我想要談轉型正義的部分第一個我想從語言的部分切入我之前其實也質詢過相關的議題我相信部長也很熟悉可是我想要再把時間往前拉一點為什麼當年這個錯誤的語言政策其實造成了不管是台語、客語、原住民語所有的在地的母語其實都受到壓抑 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4328.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4331.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
一般的政策輪替之下我們確實看起來有多一些的可能性可是我還是要說就算到了2024年其實還是有相關學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4344.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4359.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
在報紙上投書說其實台語或者是很多的在地的母語會因為過去的這個不管是電視、電影或者是文化出版導致於大家都把這些母語視為是一個比較低俗的語言例如說這個作家就說這個投書的人就說說台語的角色經常說幾句 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4362.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4376.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
之類的三字經就會迅速消失或者是說這樣的話的人就會被貼標籤為壞人或是社會上沒受過多少教育的人物也就是說相關的台灣所有母語都在面臨這個困境再來我們往下看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4377.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4395.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
其實台灣曾經是電影的大國那部長您都一直說你對電影非常熟悉我想你當年一定有印象就是因為當時鼓勵拍國語的所謂華語的電影所以當時他們可以用彩色底片可是台語片就不行了所以只能拿到黑白的底片膠捲部長有這麼一段歷史你記得嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4398.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4399.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
對,謝謝部長。也就是為什麼要拿電影這一塊來講。我是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4415.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4436.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4437.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4458.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
當時因為以推行國語的名義開始要求布袋戲改為國語配音我們可以想像一下本來很好聽的台語發聲的還有那個音調的押韻因為變成華語的演出之後其實整個味道都不見了於是開始布袋戲就慢慢慢慢消失在螢光幕之前只能走入所謂VHS錄影代那個年代我講了這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4460.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4487.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們最近還看到一個非常荒謬的例子台灣Plus這個是很重要的我們對於全世界的想要關注台灣文化的人我們來宣傳台灣非常多精彩的地方可是我們最近看到有兩個爭議的點其中他用閩南來代替Taiwanese然後甚至我們在看到這一段他要介紹吸、喝這一段他讓一群原住民小孩穿著原住民的衣服然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4488.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4489.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4509.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4516.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以我是不是可以快速跟部長討論一下文化部是不是應該針對相關文化產業我剛舉的都是文化產業甚至我們台灣plus的影音的製作可不可以針對這個文化產業創作台語作品的相關輔助政策更加的積極還有國家語言發展法跟促轉條例的立法精神針對台灣plus類似的事件提出改善報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4532.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4548.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
沒有問題啊,這個你的理念跟我完全一樣。好,謝謝部長。那相關的輔助政策或是更積極的促使促進各式各樣的臺灣臺語臺灣原住民客家語這個部分積極的給予協助好不好,部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4549.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4574.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
一個月內。好,謝謝部長。謝謝部長這麼迅速的回應。那我們來看一下關於不義遺址的部分喔。我不知道,我不知道你知不知道這個故事。2023年呢,有一個報導者的報導提到,原來是台北刑務所的官社跟台北刑務所的圍牆,不只是審定的不義遺址,也是台北市政府的法定文資。那,可是呢,當時的柯文哲市長,他在任內把這兩個地方OT發包,發包後他竟然標榜 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4578.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4601.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
華麗變身大賣然後讓所有去參觀的人秒到京都穿和服拍網美照篡改歷史再把這個地方名字改為榮景園區部長這些地方的文資確實他必須有權利在地方政府做這些處理但是你覺得這樣的處理是對的嗎以我在報導者看到這個最新的例子來說部長你怎麼看部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4608.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4626.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個臺北刑務所目前真正的那個監獄是已經整個拆掉只剩下兩道牆他目前你講的這個地方是當時刑務所那個那些人住的那些官員住的地方然後最後發報出去變成這樣的過程我說實話我不太知道捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4627.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4643.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
你自己這樣看起來有沒有覺得很荒謬一秒到京都穿和服拍網美照變成一個重要的賣點但是他原本的角色是原台北刑務所官社跟台北刑務所圍牆他是已經被審定過的不義遺址喔也是法定文資你覺得這樣的處理好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4644.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4658.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這個就有點像您剛才看到那個原住民的小孩在喝那個飲料一樣。我覺得我們台灣的歷史本身就是因為沒有講太清楚之後,使得大家都會有某種錯亂。 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4659.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4672.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4689.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4689.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
«不義遺址保存條例草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4708.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4709.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
當年一樣是報導者的報導保存不義遺址的困境是相關的政府對不義遺址的保存根本不友善 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4726.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4740.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
南投縣政府在2018年他們為了設置普里鎮長周義雄歡迎您的電子看板直接把鋼樑打進二二八事件的烏牛藍橋石碑當時呢南投文化局僅宣稱遺跡破壞不可逆 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4742.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4766.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
可是呢他們明明該有的動作例如說提報文資或者是相關當地的公民團體要提報文資他們也以行政的方法刁難所以烏牛藍橋石碑就沒有辦法成為被保護的文資從轉型正義我要回來看這件事情非常多地方的文資其實都在面臨這個困境而且我相信會越來越多只要主政的人他對於相關的事情沒有概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4767.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4773.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
沒有熱情甚至對於議題沒有敏感度他們就會做出這麼野蠻不文明的事情所以這邊我想要再次強調文化部應該要積極有角色部長你怎麼看? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4779.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4800.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我剛才講這些問題就是還是回到原來大家不覺得那個是應該要對他尊重或者不知道他的來龍去脈文化部扮演的角色在這個時機點是非常重要的那如果好部長謝謝你的回應如果我們不要等到出事了然後文化部再去函糾正我在想有沒有一個可能性文化部有沒有機會成立一個所謂中央輔導團的概念一旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4802.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4825.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
你們不管是主動地盤查、主動地去了解地方政府的需求或是當地方政府提報上來的時候你們給予協助讓相關的文化資產以及保存可以進入一個專業的討論程序而不要讓地方政府亂搞一通之後你們再去函糾正,你覺得呢?目前我們就算不義遺址這個條例裡面就有包括這一點我們跟地方的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4826.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4835.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那他跟我們同樣的那些歷史建物的那個定義是一樣的。那可是他們的做法除了我剛剛說這個荒謬的不文明的粗暴的錯誤怎麼辦?我們輔導團還可以更積極做哪些事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4841.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4867.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們會要這個地方政府提出一個如何保存的一個計畫提到我們這邊來可是他們如果沒有做盤查也就是說其實相關很多的配套我們需要文化部跟中央政府跟地方政府必須更積極的溝通讓這些事情可以一再一再的被討論然後被盤點然後被好好的保存跟對待我想部長這件事情非常非常重要雖然已經有相關機制但是看起來悲劇還是不斷的發生所以要拜託文化部不管透過什麼方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4870.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4881.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
指導團也好,平台討論機制也好,要跟地方政府有更多的溝通。我們也希望一個月內有相關的報告,可以嗎?可以,謝謝。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝。好,部長請回,謝謝陳培宇委員的質詢。再來我們請葛如君委員。謝謝主席,有請文化部李遠部長。好,有請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4901.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4922.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
各位委員你好部長好我想剛剛陳培宇委員的質詢其實就是在講文化部要有一個帶頭的作用這件事情非常重要今天想要跟您先探討電子書的議題這兩天有很多媒體在報導我們的閱讀型態是往數位化發展電子書的占比真的是飛速成長從2019年的4.3% |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4925.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4947.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
短短四年之間成長10倍,到40%圖書的部分呢,現在基本上實體跟電子同步出版的大概有六成。那我們阿宅喜歡看的漫畫甚至高達將近八成。那電子書雖然看起來出版社很積極的在推動,民間的接受度也很高,但是有一個很不好、不妙的消息。 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4948.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4965.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
只有不到兩成的民眾付費購買電子書,所以出版業者暗然表示,電子書不出不行,但是出了也不行,因為賺不到錢。請教部長,文化部有沒有注意到電子書免費閱讀占多數的狀況,有沒有了解是什麼樣的原因?我是不是請主持人回答一下,這個事情我曉得。 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4977.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4982.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
為什麼低於兩成的人付費?你如果不是很清楚,可以了解一下,不一定要勉強回答。好,這個很重要啦,因為出版業已經做到所有努力了,但是文化部有沒有去了解這個議題。那我來看,給各位一個觀點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5002.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5026.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
以我們阿宅最喜歡的漫畫來講超過七成已經在用數位來閱讀了但是我們認為有一個可能性是文化部沒有做到領頭作用去讓大家了解哪些東西本來就應該付費哪些平台是合法哪些平台是違法我們已經找到非常多的論壇很多的年輕人他想支持正版 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5026.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5042.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
對不起他不知道哪些平台的漫畫哪些平台的電子書是正版哪些平台是盜版這個我覺得不是他們的問題為什麼因為現在網路資訊到處都是我們如果沒有教育年輕人要如何分辨他們如何分辨呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5043.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5068.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
其實台灣在購買電子遊戲數位商品的成績,交易量是名列前茅的。全世界很可能是沒有前五也有前十。所以其實大家是很用心的發問,文化部應該要來做到一個示範性的作用,就像打擊黃牛嘛。政府如果沒有作為,黃牛就是一直存在。我想問一下文化部目前有沒有做一些打擊數位盜版、電子盜版的手段? |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5076.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5077.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我想本質上你們會做,但是顯然做法不夠有效。 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5098.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5127.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
到底如何區分有沒有表列有沒有鼓勵我們看電影的時候前面都有很大的這個FBI等等這個當然有一些做法有一些新的做法都可以討論我希望文化部能不能針對打擊有效打擊出版品非法盜版網站在一個月內向本席提出書面報告這份報告如果我拿到的話我會公佈在平台上網路平台社群平台讓所有喜歡閱讀喜歡漫畫的讀者大家一起來看一下這些做法到底夠不夠可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5128.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5129.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我相信這也是文化部支持的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5144.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5169.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
當然現在有很多圖書館的介入也不是壞事但我希望大家看到喜歡的數位的東西也可以收藏我想這個付費的比例也希望文化部我們一起來努力提高再來另外一個議題我想要來看這個文化跟AI的結合有一個獲取知識的重要管道就是AI科技我們接下來年輕人或者所有的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5170.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5192.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
很可能都是用AI在搜尋、在閱讀、在學習那2018年的文化政策白皮書就有寫到文化科技的核心價值基於科技與文化結合這是一個契機那近日我們的院長呢總統太院長又宣誓要發展主權AI我認為從今年開始或者甚至從明年開始應該是一個最好最好的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5193.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5212.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
目前我們有一個科技跟文化結合最大最大的機會就是我們自己正在發展我們自己的語言模型就是台德的反體中文大型語言模型但是現在它的發展困境就是缺乏反體中文的語料跟訓練的資料我們來看一下這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5217.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5230.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
67%是政府開放資料。我們來看,其他各國都是在用購買的方式來購買資料。我想請教一下部長,我自己感覺像什麼呢?全世界的AI? |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5231.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5238.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
除了自己的課本免費的資源之外都還在外面補習還在自費買書結果台灣的AI很可憐只能上網找已經公開的資料政府公報這個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5248.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5262.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
您覺得我們應不應該要花一些錢來購買一些數據,或者我們是不是應該更積極的提供資料給台德?您覺得如果要跟出版商洽談授權,一張圖片的授權費用大概多少比較合理啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5265.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5282.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這部分我說實話我不知道價錢但是我們本身文化不能做的事情就是我們做了很多那個我們本身的藝術那個重整很多藝術史那個資料非常豐富有開放了嗎?我們這一次2.0待會兒會讓你們來盤點一下我來問一下來讓您了解我們這邊有整理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5291.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5315.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這個Google Meta他們平常會願意為每張圖片支付1到2美金短影片2到4美元長影片100到300美元文字內容的市場是0.001美元他是用買的方式來購買這些文字圖像來做訓練那我們其實想請教一下部長您知道台德目前一年大約編列多少預算用來購買合法的資料來訓練嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5318.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5320.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5340.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5340.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
議員范雲等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5356.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5363.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我跟部長分享113年台德只有700萬來購買合法資料那為什麼部長您要了解呢?因為700萬裡面有648萬是向中央設來購買新聞圖片跟文字的內容這個比例真的是遠遠不夠啦我們支持一部單一部電影可能就花7000萬合起來可能一點多億結果我們讓我們的台德來補習就花不到700萬我希望應該要更多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5383.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5397.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
同時文化部跟速發部在AI方面的協作也應該要更緊密。我們台德接下來要做這個跟政府公部門的合作,裡面完全沒有文化部。這個文化部有沒有機會來做第6個合作的部會? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5400.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5400.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
﹝請審查委員范雲等18人擬具 ﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5420.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5423.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們來牽線,還有剛剛您提到的相關的文化資產網還有很多的數據內容我們目前看到台德還有一些相關的團體都說你沒有提供但是內容目前的開放資料的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5440.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5444.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
一週內以書面回覆給本席。分開講,剛才所有的問題都在於那個我們沒有得到對方的授權,但是您剛才講一週對我們來講大概他也太短,要多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5470.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5486.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
請你原諒我們的人力真的非常不足給我一個月好嗎?好那最後主席有爭取15秒AI的相關的計畫現在有增加但還不夠只有兩個案子600萬希望文化跟科技的結合可以再多一點好不好?謝謝,謝謝部長那部長之後再跟那個委員報告好嗎?好,謝謝你部長請回,謝謝葛如君委員再來我們請陳秀寶委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5501.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5508.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
謝謝主席。請文化部李部長以及行政院人權及轉行政院處賴處長。好,有請李部長、賴處長。部長早安喔。嗨,陳委員你好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5517.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5536.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們促轉條例有明定,不義遺址保存是轉型正義任務之一。那促進正義轉型委員會在民國110年有公告審定228事件不義遺址有25處。111年公告審定白色恐怖不義遺址有17處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5538.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5553.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
在促轉會解散後,行政院有成立人權及轉型正義處。另外,保存不義遺址的事項是文化部來承接。請教部長,在促轉會解散之後對我們的促進轉型正義的推動有沒有不利的影響?您覺得有沒有影響?促轉會解散之後對我們整個促進轉型正義的推動,您覺得有沒有影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5563.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5585.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他結束以後把他的工作分給不同的部門我們所分到的這個文化部的部門就是不義遺址的已經登錄跟潛在的兩種我們就往下每一年照這個計畫做他有沒有影響我不知道因為在他成立的那段時間我個人完全沒有參加過任何一場座談會所以我不知道他有沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5586.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5594.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
好,那我想請教賴處長,人行及轉型正義處你們實質的功能,你們真正的工作大概是做哪些項目? |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5598.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5618.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
跟委員檢要報告我想在促喊條例兩年前配合促轉會的任務告一段落那促喊條例當時其實就是明定行政院因涉推動轉型正義匯報那所以在這個匯報的部分本處是作為院的推動轉型正義匯報的幕僚處這是其一 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5618.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5641.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那第二的部分就是在匯報的召開相關的會議之外日常的業務的推動我想相關的工作由處長會一個獨立機關分散由主要六大部會來推動那院的人權處其實也需要在業務的日常中跟各個部會有許多的溝通協調甚至統合的工作在推動以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5642.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5663.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好,謝謝處長。處長條例公佈實施到現在已經有6年,但是其實政府機關隊已經公告過潛在的不義遺址的調查保存,修復在利用的這些實際上的推動保存的相關作為比較不足,所以監察院在今年初也已經糾正。我想請教部長您覺得這是吳浩波的問題還是行政院的問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5665.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5678.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
行政院剛剛有提到它每年有兩次的會報然後我們自己文化部才剛剛開過由政委所主持的這個會報那您剛剛講是誰的問題我想我們都非常努力在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5680.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5696.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
就是屬於文化部該做的部分我們一直在往下屬於潛在遺址的調查還有現有遺址的保存部長的意思是說你們所銜接下來的這些工作這些任務你們都已經有很認真的在做有有我們可以給委員一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5696.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5720.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
本期也很肯定發布你們有提出不義遺址保存條例這個草案來加速保存作為但是國家人權博物館呢從107年就已經制定了推動不義遺址保存維護以及人權事務發展的補助要點幾次的修正呢雖然有增加對民間團體的補助但是對直轄市及縣市政府的補助每一年度每一個案補助計畫一直都是200萬這樣的金額您覺得會不會太低 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5727.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5729.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
其實這幾年從國家人權博物館這個補助金額從107年到113年總計補助給直轄市及縣市政府才1527 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5748.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5767.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
一萬多。那因為有修正所以呢博春民間團體總共是61萬。所以這樣子的金額來執行這樣的業務監察院要糾正。所以是不是說這樣子的金額不夠或者是說你們有怎樣的需求提出那行政院沒有支持?部長您覺得呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5769.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5793.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
其實他們只要提出申請我們大概都會支持大概107年到113年我自己這邊有個數據高雄、台南、雲林這邊我們大概有46幾萬桃園我們大概485萬就是其實不如剛剛委員講那麼少啦我們大概都是四五百萬到六百萬那只要地方上提出來我們都盡量配合幫助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5794.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5803.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那麼部長,針對這個不義遺址的維護管理不當,年初監察院所提出的這個糾正,要求你們要檢討改善,你們有怎樣的改善措施?這個我來問一下好嗎?因為它是非常瑣碎的那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5813.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5831.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
您問的那個應該針對的是安康接待室。那安康接待室這個部分現在檢察院的意思是說我們在整個標案的進行上面的程序是不是有延後,但那部分已經補正過來,現在的進度是符合進度的。如果指的是安康接待室的部分我們已經把它補正了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5831.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5832.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
﹝請審查委員﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5852.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5872.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
在115年5月底解散的促轉會有說盤點出來107處的不義遺址並且已經有審定公告其中42處那還有六成就是有65處的待文化部這邊來接手處理但文化部你們現在的報告是說潛在不義遺址只有64處少了一處是那是為什麼?是少了哪裡?那個潛在遺址一旦... |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5879.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5906.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我們潛在一直一直是有個審議委員會在審議那目前在我們文化不是64處並不是減掉一處應該是資訊有點問題我們一直是64處潛在不義遺址從接手的時候就是64處接手的時候就是64處所以他們交給你們的時候就是這個樣子當初他們的資料給你們是這樣那他們是當初他們的公告的資料有問題嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5907.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5934.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這我就不曉得捏。其實我們已經非常努力地根據他交下來的這個遺址在做調查。但是中間你說65跟64的差別,我不太知道什麼原因。好,那沒關係。部長,潛在的不義遺址在彰化縣只有一處,那目前只有在元尼國牆內的遠海軍反共先鋒訓練營是唯一的潛在不義遺址,目前的用途是住宅。我想請教部長,像這樣的潛在不義遺址未來該如何規劃跟運用? |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5936.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5963.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這部分在我們的條例裡面有規定說只要是變成民宅之後我們就不能強迫他要做任何的改變但是我們會勸說他或者鼓勵他或者是幫助他你們會用勸說或是鼓勵的這樣子的方式嗎還有補助但是他如果堅持不要我們就尊重他好 那麼原來的台灣省行政長官公署暨廣場就是我們現在的行政院縣址也是228事件的不義遺址那像這樣的地方我們未來會如何規劃跟運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5968.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5972.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在促轉會說:「不義遺址的審定標準是以證據完整度高、發生地明確、而且遺址的產權為公有者為原則。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5991.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6010.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以今天的草案也只有針對公有不義遺址但是我想請教部長說對於私有的不義遺址我們除了剛剛講用鼓勵或者說補助的方式我們有沒有什麼其他更積極的做法因為原屬於私產的舉例像和平日報它也是潛在不義遺址那現在經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6012.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6017.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
台中的文資審議憲刊遭到判定他是說不具古蹟著歷史價值的意義的價值那現在真正掌管的這個文化部你們如果沒有比較積極的態度像這樣像和平日報這樣子的不義長址將來也可能就是在沒有配套的措施之下可能隨時遭到拆除那如果我們沒有比較積極的作為我們是不是會造成這些不義遺址漸漸的消失那我們沒有對這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6039.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6040.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不義遺址的規範保護我們有沒有更積極的想法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6044.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6070.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
委員你問得非常好,就是我們對於這樣的是私人的我們沒有辦法強制的這種遺址我們就會用3D建模把它做好然後還有就是試著留下在網路上關於這個地址的一些事件發生的過程因為剛剛講說我們沒有辦法強制它做我們就做我們可以做的部分就是把它整個過去的樣子3D建模那這個部分我們一直在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6071.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6094.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好 謝謝部長我再借一分鐘齁那其實因為我時間到了但是我想要請教部長現在因為我們國家人權博物館有提供不義遺址的標示使用規範指引也編列相關的預算那我想請教部長說未來我們設置標示牌那麼我們如何也辦理相關的宣導以及這個教育的這些相關的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6096.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6101.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好,是不是部長之後再書面報告或是當面向我們那個委員回覆好嗎?可以嗎?可以書面嗎?因為我們整個人權管在教育這個部分已經做了很多不同的項目。我可以請他們給你書面。本席是肯定支持那個標示牌的設置啦。但是相關的你不是設置了之後我就不管它。我們如何就是相關的宣導以及教育的這些配套的措施我們要做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6122.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6125.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我沒有走進校園再推廣這個,沒有問題。好,那謝謝部長,謝謝主席。那部長請回,謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢。再來我們請林一金委員質詢,然後等一下吳佩儀委員質詢完之後我們休息五分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6150.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6152.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
謝主席。有請部長跟文職局長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6162.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6182.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6184.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6206.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6208.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6209.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6238.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6255.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的這個雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6258.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6271.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6273.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6297.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6297.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6305.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例? |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6308.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6328.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那些事情我全部都承認他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6329.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6358.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
兇者及被害者等事件。我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個法案是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6359.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6385.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
對。所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派。假如我沒有記錯的話,人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上。當然,對。那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題。它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方,不是。所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6386.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6388.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
﹝請審查委員范雲等18人擬具 ﹝請審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具 ﹝請審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6415.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6442.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6443.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6468.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
其實我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭他應該是所有黨派都應該支持他通過要來面對歷史謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府他現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護那去年有爆出說 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6469.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6474.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
一篇殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損。所以它造成了安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6492.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6517.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
當初的嘉賓議員就呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的這個保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。那這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期這個政治受難者墓園目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,那第三墓區甚至都進不去。 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6518.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6536.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6539.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6562.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6563.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6563.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好,謝謝部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6578.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6580.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求那看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有共計42處 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6593.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6612.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6620.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6648.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6655.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6669.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6672.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6681.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出身在新化出身的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名單的120週年 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6690.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6707.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6707.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6711.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
不義遺址保存條例草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6737.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6763.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這筆經濟費是透過文學館在編列文學館在組織然後文化部正在審核當中但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子他在日治時代的時候就被迫害被關起來到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6765.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6778.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢,部長請回。再來我們請吳佩義委員質詢,吳佩義委員質詢完之後休息五分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6792.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6795.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
謝謝主席,我請李遠部長。好,有請李部長。吳委員你好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6802.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6825.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6832.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6859.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6860.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6862.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6878.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6898.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6903.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6925.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6930.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6943.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6957.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6976.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6978.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6990.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡。我外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7000.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7022.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7026.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7044.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7051.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7056.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7057.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7075.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7085.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7094.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7102.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7118.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市古宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7120.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7144.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢?監察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7144.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7149.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7155.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7175.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化台北市的六張禮 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7176.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7196.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
2016 2016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7204.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7212.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7230.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7237.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7239.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7242.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7265.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7268.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
包括 what kind of basic research and investigation you should do. |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7268.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7283.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7289.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7296.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7305.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7306.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
等18人擬具兼具兼具兼具兼具 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7325.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7336.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7347.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7353.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢那部長請回那我們休息五分鐘那之後請萬美玲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7833.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7835.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好,我們繼續質詢,現在請萬美玲委員質詢。好,謝謝主席,我們有請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7853.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7863.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
范委員你好好部長辛苦了我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例其實我們知道其實它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後這些業務就像您今天報告的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7874.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7888.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7889.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7911.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您說你都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7915.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7943.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7943.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7947.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7960.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7976.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過好那這裡面講的是事實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7982.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8006.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些其實很讓大家遺憾的事情, |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8007.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8008.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8028.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8048.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
稍為的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上,文化部是一個主責的機關喔,那如果按照您剛剛所說的您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年,那這我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8049.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8061.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8063.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8092.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始到發生228事件到38年來之後開始38年的戒嚴它是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8093.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8099.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我想您有點弄錯我的問題,我重複一下我的問題我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論、去做審查我覺得在討論、審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成、我們想要達成的這個目標但是今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎?所以您剛剛也說,您認為日據時代也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8121.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8121.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
﹝請審查委員范雲等18人擬具 ﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8148.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8164.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那我跟您講一下我的心情齁心情齁心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個促轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場促轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8165.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8165.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
﹝請審查委員﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8181.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8184.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8196.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8222.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8223.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8224.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
接下來我們再來討論在草案第五條第二項規定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8240.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8252.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
不義遺址的個案資料主管機關應該要以網路或其他方式公開現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下但是有一些它是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟所有權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8257.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8277.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址,但是在公開的過程中,我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址。不過部長你不能用猜的啊,因為財產不是你的啊,所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀。對對對,那我是不是請執行單位報告一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8281.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8282.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8290.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8319.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對外公告的。我想這樣子啦,部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8320.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8321.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8332.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8355.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們只能用勸導吧。只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私友人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8357.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8358.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的這個財產飲食權 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8380.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8381.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8404.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8409.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。部長請回。那再來我們請郭育晴委員質詢。主席好。有請部長。有請部長。委員好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8431.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8449.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一。 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8451.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8454.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8465.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8481.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那相對的來講中國再度被列為不自由的國家我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得像呼吸一樣的自然但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘那我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的我們簡略的真的來回顧一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8494.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8499.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上是被處決 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8520.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8543.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8544.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8552.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8561.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8573.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8576.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8579.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8602.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8607.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8630.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8644.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8649.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8667.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎?這一點我想請前辦大會報告一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8670.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8691.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權館也做了很多的一些推廣的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8692.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8715.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業也都會參著他們意見加速的進行我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8718.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8732.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8734.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8751.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8752.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8766.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8772.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8792.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8795.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8814.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8815.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8821.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他也特別做了一個類似有點像線上的一個有點像遊戲的一個方式納入了一個課綱那在推出的時候其實九月份的時候推出線上的一個說明其實也獲得很多人的好評啦就是我們是以那個故事性的一個主角是1949年海軍的白色恐怖案來做這樣的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8836.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8857.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
但是這個是線上,把它拉到了實際的不義遺址的部分我們在這個文化往下扎根的部分我們是不是也能夠讓很多的學生能夠了解自己本身在不管是戶外的教學上對台灣本土的認同那這個部分我們在不義遺址的這個部分有沒有相關的一些規劃? |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8858.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8883.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8885.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8909.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8910.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8932.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝郭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8936.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8942.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好,謝謝郭益勤委員的質詢,部長請回。再來我們請張雅玲委員質詢。有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。好,有請部長跟館長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8961.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8982.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8987.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9015.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
今年應該是2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬。那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了。就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的。那我自己其實看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛。從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元。但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿到50萬,現在他直接砍一半。 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9017.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9017.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
請審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9032.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9057.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算嘛我們增加了17%的預算嘛那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是說部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9058.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9067.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
回到當年的水準呢?不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9070.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9074.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我看一下促轉基金的費用其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9089.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9106 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9116.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9116.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9135.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9159.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工項但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊我是說總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算對是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛那個是總體預算的調整啦對 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9162.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9174.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9178.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9199.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
總體的預算上的確是會有不同的因素。對,所以我想,因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望……所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單……主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去……對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望,拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9201.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9208.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我跟委員講,這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9209.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9209.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
議員范雲等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9234.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9241.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9242.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9271.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有一個106處未來可能還會增加嘛我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9272.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9289.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9291.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9317.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9317.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9340.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面? |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9341.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9369.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論像蘇汝貞這個牆像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論好 謝謝喔 謝謝因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦那再來就是說原住民的部分因為其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽那剛剛前面也有委員提到除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害其實是廣泛於在各個族群那原住民其實也是相當的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9370.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9381.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
一群受到迫害的族群。當年國家安全館也做了一個相關的主題展。但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例。 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9383.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9403.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第8條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9403.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9404.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9432.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9457.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9457.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9484.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9485.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9485.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9521.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9524.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
請文化部長好,有請部長葉委員你好部長好,我先跟你詢問一下另外一個不義的事情啦就是我看到前兩天文化部有回應記者的詢問的時候說現在已經受理了1300件黃牛票的檢舉案請問最新介紹幾件呢?到今天為止介紹幾件呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9549.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9551.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
兩天前是1300件嘛,那今天是幾件?幾件? |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9561.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9583.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
兩千多少?兩千七百件。兩千七百件。等於是說兩天前一千三百件,現在已經兩千七百件,已經兩倍以上了。所以之後可能會越來越多啦齁。那我想問一下部長,因為兩天前文化部接受媒體訪問的時候說要修法。說要修法二指,請問是要修法的方向是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9585.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9586.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我舉一個最近連續兩場那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9613.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9615.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9642.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9656.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以最後如果這些都不行的話就可能考慮修法那所謂的修法就是您看看用什麼方式所以部長的意思是說未來考慮要修法讓以後的演唱會都實名制當然不是是這個意思當然不是你剛剛講就是這個意思不是部長我們來這邊答詢時間有限可不可以針對問題回答因為這是一個因為你剛剛講說你參考了別的演唱會發現它實名制跟週票有用所以我們考慮說因為過去都是勸說所以我們考慮說未來都採用這個方式所以你是要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9670.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9678.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
以後都實名制是這個意思嗎?不是,那你剛剛講那一連串。主席,主席,會議詢問。主席,主席,趙偉,趙偉,會議詢問。如果,因為我們,先暫停好不好,先暫停。可以啊,暫停啊。詢問什麼?不是,我們,因為我們問的問題,那個部長一直繞圈圈,那繞完6分鐘就結束,我什麼都沒問到。 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9691.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9715.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為剛剛我跟部長問他說那個文資法要修法要怎麼修然後才能夠惡意黃牛然後結果部長說像我們參考有一些演唱會用實名制我們現在是勸說但是實名制效果很好所以我們要考慮修法那我就問他說那是不是要修法成以後都實名制他又說不是那等於是剛剛那前面三分鐘我們不知道在講什麼可不可以跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9716.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9732.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
現在你問我的這個會議詢問,這個不算時間,那但是待會我想這個部分我沒辦法直接介入就是說部長的答案你會請部長針對問題回答,不然這樣子繞半天這個答詢再來你自己跟部長直接繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9734.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9734.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
等18人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9751.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9752.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我只講這個事情而已。 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9772.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9774.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以主席你認為說部長不針對問題回答是OK的,反正交給選民來政治判斷喔?所以你覺得剛剛部長這樣子有針對問題回答?你覺得剛剛這樣子有針對問題回答? |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9791.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9807.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
就是那個我想這個部分我就不介入判斷不介入判斷要不然每一個不同黨派的委員都要求我判斷的話我覺得我只是要求說請你站在主席的角度現在在立法院被詢就是要針對問題回答如果說只是想說我要把16分鐘拖掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9808.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9808.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
議員范雲等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9826.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9836.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我沒有質詢你啊,我只是說你作為主席,不然主席做召委。我沒有辦法接受判斷。那主席請問一下,我們要求他按照問題回答,這是可以的嗎?我可不可以回答?我可不可以回答?我可不可以回答?那你的會議詢問我已經答完了。好,謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9851.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9851.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
你剛剛為什麼不講? |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9861.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9885.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我只是一個前言講到說最近有這樣一個兩個好請說不要再浪費時間了不要打斷我我們會繼續跟地方政府嚴密考慮所瑕的大型場館就是大型場館都是由地方政府在管我們來設計實名制入場的規範或者優惠優惠就是我們現在正在做的你用實名制我就給你一些補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9886.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9914.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
提振業者採行實名制入廠的意願第二與相關單位延伸重新思考合理的銷售成本強制實名制資料調查權等措施調整之可行性好那這修哪一個法因為你們文化部說要修法嘛那你現在都是用鼓勵啊或是在執行上面比較強硬啊那你要修哪一個法我的問題是你要修哪一個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9919.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9931.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
對嘛!你現在就沒有要修法嘛!你剛剛講那兩個都是說你要鼓勵透過獎勵或是更嚴格的方式落實實名制嘛!那我現在問題是說你要修什麼法來遏止黃牛?你要修文創法方向是什麼?你要怎麼修?所以就是你要... |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9942.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9958.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
議員范雲知不知我先問你的態度嘛不要扯別人嘛我態度已經講了嗎?你的態度就是要修文創法以後規定實名制是不是?不一定就不一定了所以所以你修法內容是說以後我們不一定實名制那這個法律有修跟民修有差我剛才為什麼要一個字一個字唸就一個字部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9960.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9984.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
你沒有回答到我的問題沒有關係啦我覺得按照昭北說法這就大家可受公平啦因為你們告訴媒體說你們考慮修法我來這邊問你要修什麼法你又告訴我說你一直在執行上面你要更鼓勵大家做實名制然後你又說希望我們立法院可以支持你就沒有要修法你要我們支持什麼我現在就是你就是沒有針對我的問題回答沒關係沒關係這我們就交給我們這個大家去公平啦那我再問部長一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9986.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10002.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
現在那一天你來的時候剛好中午有時候是周杰倫的黃牛票開賣然後當時早上很多人都提醒你說網路上有非常多周杰倫的黃牛票在代購我當時也有提醒你然後部長你的意思是說有人檢舉我們才會辦我們不主動稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10004.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10031.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
結果後來整個網路炸鍋一堆人確實就是因為繞圈圈買不到所以政府開始動起來了警政署下令然後地方政府文化部就開始去查所以剛剛講說2700多件嘛我只要提醒部長第一個啦如果在開賣之前你們就主動積查的話那麼多人檢舉給你們你們主動積查的話實際上情況可能會小很多第二個現在即便是你們積查有抓到很多黃牛那衍生出幾個問題我跟請請教第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10032.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10038.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那些黃牛他們買到的票他們搶到的序號有的搶到幾百個序號請問一下這序號怎麼處理?搶到的序號怎麼處理?你問的問題是必須主辦單位你就是打黃牛的主辦單位阿?NO NO NO又不是喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10055.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10080.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
經紀公司也好。經紀公司。主辦單位。所以打黃牛這件事情是經紀公司自己去打,文化部不關?委員,其實你要知道黃牛的生成是非常複雜的。不是啊,我今天不是跟你在討論哲學的問題,我問的問題都很具體。我的問題是說,這一些用掃票機器人在網路上掃到了序號幾百個,後來因為稽查的結果發現這些都要沒收碼。 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10081.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10087.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那怎麼處理?你們的做法是還給主辦單位還是沒收?還是怎麼處理?我現在問你這個問題嘛。這問題很具體吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10092.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10114.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們無權沒收。無權沒收,所以怎麼處理?我一直在跟委員解釋。那怎麼處理嘛?你無權沒收好,那這個序號就沒了,所以主辦單位就空在那邊,還是說你們抓到之後會把這個序號還給主辦單位,請主辦單位擇期再一次辦理線上的搶票,是怎麼做?你們都沒有去想到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10116.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10145.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
你們都沒有去想到這個問題嗎?然後我再請教一個問題等一下一起回答那有人因為事件已經跟黃牛買了他看到代購網站他事件已經跟黃牛買了錢已經匯給黃牛了結果這些黃牛序號被沒收以後被沒收以後這個票他買不到那黃牛又不還錢給這些人那所以造成的問題是司法問題對不對?是民事嗎?還是政府會怎麼樣去處理這件事情?兩個問題簡單回答吧因為我時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10146.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10172.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
委員好,先謝謝委員的意見喔,那先說明一下因為那個基本上黃牛這邊他其實當時是不正方式的掃票就是警方沒入之後他其實是一個刑法偵查的過程所以這一下我們前面在新聞高手也有對外說明我們其實會主動跟主辦單位了解但主辦單位目前的狀況是他這邊的說明是他先配合警方他相關的序號確實現在是警方這邊還在持續偵辦當中那我們會持續跟他們溝通怎麼樣是對消費者權益保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10176.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10176.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10206.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10209.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這部分確實可能會是屬於司法的部分,但委員關注了這個會去多了解一下目前有哪幾個案例是需要。謝謝委員。好,謝謝葉元之委員質詢,部長請回。那再來我們請林宜瑾委員代主席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10239.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10240.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
接下來請范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10253.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10261.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10280.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10300.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10300.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10311.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10325.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10346.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宅血案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手? |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10348.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10365.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁業茂吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10367.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10393.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛你詮釋觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10393.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10416.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10418.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10440.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10442.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10459.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
要能夠肯認事件發生的歷史價值做民主教育社會對話都沒有的話那我想就是很多人權的議題這個社會不會關心的那剛剛我一直提醒大家就是未安婦她應該婦女團體希望證明是軍事性奴隸你可以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10460.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10481.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
竹子姓奴隸俗稱慰安婦其實文化部有支持慰安婦的紀念館的保存我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10483.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10501.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
稅務委員會解散後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是經促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10509.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10515.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10518.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10543.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好。那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠。你們有做一些大家覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助。譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的。但是整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10544.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10570.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10570.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10585.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這是一個很明確的定義歷史是什麼不義遺址保存條例很明確就是說國家未達成鞏固威權統治之目的侵害人權事件之發生地他是比較有明確定義的那另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10585.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10613.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
﹏﹏﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10613.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10618.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講臺南有湯德章的紀念公園, |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10638.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10653.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10655.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10669.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10673.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10680.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10701.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10709.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
其他的國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分。我相信時間真的不夠了。我們絕對需要立法保障。否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的重要的遺跡、人權的發生、被傷害的發生地都正在消失跟破壞中。 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10725.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10732.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我還是肯定文化部有做一些努力包含我們剛剛講的綠島、人權館等等可是這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10737.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10762.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
根整個的社會的氛圍我覺得就像我剛講的大學生100個人就是完全不知道林宜瑾寫案所以空間能夠讓大家對歷史的了解我們要說一個完整的故事才能讓下一代了解就是過去國家怎麼傷害人權也才能夠生出就是對自由民主守護的一個信念 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10764.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10767.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工有針對潛在遺址先期審議就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源啦所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10783.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10806.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10809.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10833.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛主席在那邊沒有一個委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10834.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10851.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10855.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10873.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
人權傷痛不能忘維護歷史記憶是我們這一代很重要的責任我們要讓下一代都了解自由民主得來不易威權對人的傷害有多大只有空間存在才能說一個完整的故事謝謝部長謝謝范委員謝謝范委員也部長請回那我們接下來就請羅廷偉委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10888.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10895.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
請羅廷偉委員質詢。羅廷偉委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得? |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10914.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10939.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
一、二。可以跟我分享一下嗎?一這個字齁,看你要擺在哪裡來講。就是一種道義嘛。就是心理所作所單位的道義。我覺得最珍貴就是人與人之間的道義。大概就這個意思吧。我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋啊。它有三種含義。合於正義的。比如說義舉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10941.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10968.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10969.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10998.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他是說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外, |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10998.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11012.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11014.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11035.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有些教育的意義可以認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11037.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11060.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
是部長,那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道,沒關係我們分享一下,是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11062.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11079.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11080.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11106.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11109.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11111.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那這算不算是不義? |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11112.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11140.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話,南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯一下。那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去不去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有。如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想,他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11141.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11167.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11169.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11194.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11195.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11207.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11208.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11227.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照耀鏡看到全面對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11229.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11251.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11254.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11281.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11284.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11295.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
對,謝謝你支持。我們都支持。這是非常好的一部國片。但裡面所闡述的內容呢?我們就講鄭成功就好了。鄭成功對於追隨他的難民 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11296.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11318.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
移民來到這邊,他是超級英雄。到現在台灣世俗可見顏平郡、王室、顏平北路、顏平中學等名稱。但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候,對於當時所居住的原住民,卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍。如果歷史背景是在這樣的情形當中,那麼誰是義?誰是不義? |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11321.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11334.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11336.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11360.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11362.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11389.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11390.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11417.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
院長、部長,您怎麼看?我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好,因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論,對不義遺址提出新的看法,我個人覺得非常好。我覺得所有事情經過這個過程,會讓大家看得更清楚歷史,我覺得是一件好事。我們一起來討論,未來我希望列入這個法案大家一天一天討論,好嗎?所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整,是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11418.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11443.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我可以讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11445.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11461.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍,而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品,譬如228的電影就是悲情城市,白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件,這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11466.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11495.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
他的作品就有關周事件,換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇,它反而是一個最深層的故事。我非常認同,所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入,而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸。所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性,需不需要考慮到包容性。我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11497.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11509.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
謝謝羅廷威委員的質詢。部長請回。再來我們要處理臨時提案。臨時提案提案人林宜瑾、范雲、聯署人陳秀寶。我們是請一些人先宣讀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11517.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11535.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
不義遺址標示系統上路之間對台灣幾處不義遺址先行完成標示包含行政院、白色恐怖警媒紀念園區、台南灘德章紀念公園、白色恐怖綠島紀念園區、新生訓導處及綠島感染監獄、高雄市立歷史博物館員、高雄市政府等處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11536.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11559.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
除前段提及這地點外根據處長會任務總結報告該會議以針對全台多處不義遺址進行社會盤點與初步認定有待不義遺址標示系統掛牌標示鑒於歷史教育之重要性以喚起社會大眾對於人權、馬斯恐怖、歷史及轉型正義的關注帶動更多的省思與討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11560.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11574.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
文化部應盡速進行不義遺址標識系統之依序標識作業,並於一個月內提出將如何進行標識之作業期程規劃。提案人林宜瑾、范雲吳培毅、林曙元、陳培玉、陳秀廣修等完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11577.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11593.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
請問提案委員林警委員有沒有要補充說明或意見?好 謝謝 謝謝主席我是認為那個不義遺址這個標示系統應該是持續辦理的一個事項就如同我們那個陳文成博士那個紀念碑還有那個紀念碑的解說一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11593.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11619.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
竟然清楚地解說說這個地方發生什麼像人權迫害我覺得這也是一個非常好的人權教育所以我覺得從我手上這本書上這個還有42就我們不以此228228跟白色恐怖不以此有47處嘛那這裡面有完成標示的就如同我提案說明這幾處而已所以我覺得我們應該要好好的在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11620.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11642.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
持續性的處理。那之前像那個章阿玲委員也有在總指揮提到過行政院其實可以加入這個不義遺址的導覽因為行政院那邊也有一些標示那大家也可以去行政院看那這個都很好所以我期待說那個我們文化部這邊在針對這個標示做一些這個系統的規劃那作業期程也讓我們委員會知道以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11649.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11670.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。請問其他委員有沒有要補充說明或意見的?好,沒有。那請問部長有無補充說明?沒有,我們就遵照辦理。OK,好。那就照案通過。那如果有委員要補簽的話,請那個可以到前面來,那議事員會詳細登載在議事錄。好,那接著我們繼續進行質詢。請鄭天財委員質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11677.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11678.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
外委員會4分鐘主席、各位委員、有請部長。有請部長。部長。政務委員你好。因為行政院沒有依法行政、沒有依法編組預算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11702.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11704.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
好,今天文化部的報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11720.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11741.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
委員提案就是我的提案本席的提案擴大威權統治時期及不義遺址的定義之時期範圍包括清代及日本政府以武力征法致嚴重民主或部落重大傷亡或受難之重大歷史事件發生地均屬制這是你的今年的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11742.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11766.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
裡面還提到有關委員提案擴大威權統治時期不義遺址之定義範圍以促轉條例之時期定義不符,建議以行政院草案審查。這個部長還有文化部的同仁看清楚本席的提案第三條不是寫威權統治時期 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11768.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11790.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以你的報告寫說威權統治時期我擴大威權統治時期我的條文沒有寫威權統治時期我的條文是寫極權統治時期自清代至中華民國八十一年十一月六日至之時期可能還要考慮八十一年是不是夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11793.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11821.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我們現在原住民社會在討論現在的政府是不是極權政府、霸權政府、獨裁政府不義遺址我們做了一個定義部長、文化部的同仁在轉型正義條例裡面沒有就不義遺址做定義有就威權統治時期做定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11822.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11846.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
但是沒有就不義遺址做定義這要很明確而本席所提的提案叫極權統治時期極有兩種也有一個極極極極端的極啦也可以改為霸權統治時期族裁統治時期都可以而事實上我們看蔡總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11852.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11876.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
他在105年8月1日向顏住民主道歉的時候,他怎麼說?四百年來每一個曾經來到台灣的政權透過武力征伐、土地掠奪、強烈侵害了顏住民主既有的權利。這不是我說的,是蔡總統說的。而這也是歷史的事實,歷史的事實。 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11879.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11906.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
總統府原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會設置要點很明確的就是講因外來歷來因外來政權所導致原住民的潛力受侵害剝奪歷史這很清楚所以這個部分我們既然是在立法就要把它立得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11908.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11930.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
原住民族重大歷史事件不是只有二二八事件之後不是只有民國34年之後部長你的意見如何我完全同意啊好所以要請這個我們所有的委員能夠支持本席的提案因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11932.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11960.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
各族群阿美族、賽夏族、排灣族、格瑪蘭族、沙其萊雅族、泰雅族、泰魯格族、布農族、沙雅各族都有而且這些歷史事件啊、演名會啊都有多群的專家、寫者啊從我在中央演名會當處長的時候就開始啊我們就開始編轉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11962.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11964.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
«不義遺址保存條例草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11996.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11997.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
主席有請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12006.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12027.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所有的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12028.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12051.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得? |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12053.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12078.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12081.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12102.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權統治這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12104.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12121.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
議長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12125.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12135 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
對阿,不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿,我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12136.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12156.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講,今天法院只能討論這個? |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12158.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12176.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢請問部長從34年到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12181.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12186.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好! |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12203.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12228.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12229.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12257.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那我就問這件事情,你要不要把這個所謂日據時代的慰安所都列入不義遺址?在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎?日本時代是一個殖民時代,中華民國是一個我們回到祖國。哇!你的標準真繁複啊!所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係,到了所謂的民主、到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以,都不可以啦!部長我再問你喔,最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12259.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12288.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12289.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12290.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12301.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12324.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括康南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道羅委員不好意思因為超過一分鐘了那部長後續再跟羅委員報告或者是書面報告好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12327.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12334.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
謝謝羅志強委員的質詢。謝謝你。那部長請回楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員。不在。黃婕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請部長。好,有請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12354.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12374.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
韓委員你好好李部長好其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道說我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性因為到現在國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在台灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12376.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12394.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12404.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12410.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12422.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12444.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12446.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12471.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12472.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12476.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12501.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12518.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣義 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12520.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12547.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12549.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12574.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押行囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12575.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12601.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12602.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12628.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
通過了過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12630.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12648.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向、更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12653.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12680.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
謝謝黃婕委員的質詢。那部長請回。再來鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員。林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員。陳亭飛、陳亭飛、陳亭飛委員。顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員。高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員。翁曉琳、翁曉琳、翁曉琳委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12681.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12706.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
無春城、無春城、無春城委員。今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢。另有高金、素梅、翁小玲、無春城三位委員提出書面質詢。關於今天會議,我們作如下決議。報告及詢答完畢。委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報。 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12707.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12730.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分,請文化部及相關機關競速以書面答覆。不義遺址保存條例的相關草案,我們另定其審查。報告委員會,今天議程我們順利完畢,現在休息。謝謝各位,謝謝大家,辛苦了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12746.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12750.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
鼓掌今天生日快樂我們祝李遠部長生日快樂 |