| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc5998180c4b1e7cf4ad9f551ce5fa921f6059d4d42a7fce21f9391c46bbe5d53b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查
（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
13185 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 12:10:00 |
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1906.722 |
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報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開始開會我們先進行報告事項先宣讀上次的會議意思錄 |
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1916.448 |
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1933.01 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年10月23日星期三上午九十一分至十二時四十三分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃文國昌等十二人列席委員張文齊凱等十八人 |
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1933.55 |
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1958.358 |
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列席官員司法院副秘書長黃玲倫等人主席吳昭吉委員鐘憲報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二要請司法院秘書長法務部部長法務部聯政署署長法務部調查局局長內政部警政署署長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就如何破除偵查大公開以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障進行專題報告並被質詢 |
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1960.399 |
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1974.347 |
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本次會議有委員黃國昌等14人提出質詢委員林思敏等2人提出書面質詢決定一報告集群答完畢二委員質詢是要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢請問各位上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏 |
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1982.858 |
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1986.379 |
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則要介紹道場的官員司法院黃副秘書長法務部政部長最高檢察署刑檢察總長廉政署的馮署長 |
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2012.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2015.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
其餘未介紹的列席代表我們請參與名單就不再逐一介紹並且列入公報的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2031.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2052.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那本次議程討論事項排定並安審查台灣民眾黨及委員鍾佳濱等人分別擬具刑事訴訟法部分修正草案等兩案那我們現在進行提案說明及報告先進行提案說明發言時間3分鐘我們請提案人鍾佳濱召委進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2059.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2074.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席在場委員先進列席政務局案長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生關於刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十本席領銜提出修正提案那麼重點在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2074.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2101.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在為了彰顯政府打擊詐騙我們立法院也落實法治規範那麼引進了高科技的偵查犯罪行為包括透過GPS透過M化車等科技偵查工具為了要取得這樣的證據在法院審理時具有證據能力那麼在今年7月的時候我們成功的三讀通過了刑事訴訟法的科技偵查專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2102.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2125.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那麼授權給檢警在偵查時能使用運用高科技的工具避免落後於詐騙集團人家笑的說說我們偵辦者的科技能力追不上詐騙集團的進步那麼受到科技偵查的人民如果認為自己的權利受到侵犯那麼目前依照刑事訴訟法第153條之10條可以對於法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2129.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2151.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
或檢察官准許的科技偵查手段提出救濟。然而在目前通過之後學界就有批評因為司法警察也有可能是發動科技偵查的主體然而我們在通過的條文文藝上卻僅限於法官檢察官他的科技偵查民眾才能針對他們二者的科技偵查才能提出救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2152.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2162.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因此本次提案的重點是將法官檢察官修改成只要是對民眾對於科技偵查的處分不符都能夠進行救濟以上說明好謝謝那我們現在就由機關代表進行報告那報告時間三分鐘我們先請司法院副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2181.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2195.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席各位委員首先感謝大院讓司法院就這個刑事法這個特殊擔當處分的這個究竟能夠有機會來做個說明那麼首先跟各位報告各位報告我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2196.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2213.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2213.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2239.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那個像剛才一百那個一五三之十第十條一五三之十條目前規定雖然說法官檢察官那司法警察雖然好像沒有規定進去但是跟各位報告這是基於說將來將來如果說這一個比較像那一五三的這個之一的這個地項的沒有超過二十四小時後沒有超過兩天連續沒有超過兩天這一種比較短期 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2240.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2265.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因嚮比較小的這一種處分的話將來如果有爭執他還是會到後續的本案訴訟裡面去斟酌到底要不要采為證據也就是依照我們刑事訴訟158之4去做斟酌甚至如果說這些機關本身有一些與法不合的行為還是有後續的民事國家賠償甚至行政責任要去做追究所以並不會說對這些行為沒有救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2269.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2276.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
只是說不是在前階段救濟因為前階段救濟目前各位可以參考我們的書面的這個比較法前階段救濟到最後只是宣告一個違法還是沒有真正具體的效果一樣要等到後階段的這個本案訴訟去救濟那麼我們是斟酌說司法的量能有限你既然在後階段的那個本案訴訟中也要去斟酌他的證據能力的話那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2291.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2314.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
是不是在後端一起判斷就好不會沒有救濟而是顧及到這個司法量能做一個成績化的這個救濟處理那這個是跟各位報告那目前委員們所提的這個法案最主要當然民眾黨所提的這個153之十刪除然後增訂404跟416的這個部分剛才跟各位報告過但是民眾黨的部分我們更顧慮說是直接定在416 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2315.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2315.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
議員鍾委員提 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2334.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2357.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
直接修153之十當然剛剛各位報告過但是今天假設說大院是決定說要在前階段就給一個暫時性的宣告因為那個宣告你後面還是一樣要做本案的處理宣告違法本身並沒有直接法律效果那我們參考比較法上面很多國家規範是不一致的但是這一部分如何決定我們尊重大院的這個意見那至於說民眾黨建議那個刪除那個刑訴245之1增定416 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2362.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2381.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
的這一部分他們是認為說這部分到底那個辯護人的筆記權是獨立還是非獨立那這一點產生疑問但是跟各位報告其實在依照憲判七跟憲判三其實辯護人的這些抗告權當然都不能違背被告的這個民事的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2382.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2382.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2402.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2425.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
被制止他不能當場自己自己抗告沒有違背被告的民事意識不能當場要等被告去抗告那他有沒有那個時間有沒有那個時間就有差別所以我們認為都不是獨立的但是因為時效的原因他可以自己在第一時間就先提出抗告那這個差別在這邊跟各位報告以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2430.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2433.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好謝謝那下一位我們請法務部政部長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2439.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2467.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會代表本部列席報告並被質詢至報告如下第一有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的草案部分就草案第一五三之十第二四五之一第四零四條第四一六條部分這邊依請在座最主要是四一六的規定前面擴大準抗告的課題將造成受處分人對同一行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2468.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2493.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
例如說所扣押可分別對偵查輔助機關檢查案法官從無提出究竟造成裁決的一個其一的現象第二草案刪除本法第153之十規定自本章的執法至授權規定亦一併遭到刪除第三有關偵查輔助機關所謂科技偵查處分的究竟建立修正本法153之十擴大究竟課題即可保障受處分的究竟前 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2494.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2510.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第2舊草案228條之一已進行在座因偵查中的詢問互以被告犯罪嫌疑人隨時通信自由。這個會嚴重因緩害偵查順利進行及真實發現以偵查不公開原則有違,且有篡過面證之餘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2511.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2524.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
再來就是到場的一個方式由羈押的原因的必要齁這個都是屬於不同的一個階段不同層次的問題沒有自沒有無檢察官先決定申請羈押為規避本法93條24小時的一個規定齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2528.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2554.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那草案的修正理由是對偵查師有所誤解。第三具體個案中檢查是否開立船票簽話機票竟依法為之如認為有違法實質控制而不當延長24小時小拘捕期限亦得依法救濟。第四草案規定是現行法規運作的當然結果。如依草案的內容對其他強制處分是否應同等立法有從規範增熱必要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2557.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2574.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
再請斟酌那有關於鍾佳濱委員等19人擬具的草案部分草案規定造成辯護人救濟權就是獨立救濟或代理救濟權定性不明那所謂賦予救濟權為獨立救濟權將造成犯罪極點組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2575.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2589.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
可透過公範委任辯論的手段稅刑盯梢、刺探偵查的作為的一個目的。那為杜絕爭議符合權力必有究竟原則建立修正條文為受調查人對於本章制裁定或處分不符則。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2591.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2620.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
得依本法第四篇規定向該管法院提起看告或申請徹效或變更之透過本法第四篇的一個規定辯護人可依同法第四一九條準用三四六條的規定確定辯護人的救濟權及代理救濟權這個就可以避免定性不明及獨立救濟所凶的前任的一個弊端最後本部再次對大院費心修法表達感佩之意以上報告敬請各位委員先進質疑謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2624.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2627.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席各位先進各位早安最高檢察署的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2655.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2666.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個就在我們今天所附的資料那主席這個是我要再說明還是說因為今天我們部裡面跟司法院是主政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2675.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2684.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
總統,不知道總統有沒有可以進行口頭報告三分鐘。如果總統說沒有,就一切由書面也可以。那其餘列席我看有時間的關係,所以其餘列席的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2693.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2718.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
報告者如果沒有口頭需要補充報告的話就請參閱書面那機關代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容均列入公報記錄那提案說明及報告機關報告已經進行完畢那我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為五分鐘那不再延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2718.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2742.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
上午10點30分截止發言登記。那我們現在請登記第一位的莊瑞雄委員進行詢答。謝謝召委。有請我們法務部正部長。麻煩部長。還有我們警政署。署長。行政警察局局長也請上台。局長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2745.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2749.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
總長來了,請總長也上台。麻煩總長。我就沒有一一稱呼啦,不一定,總長。我想昨天您知道長什麼大的字嗎?你們的感受。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2773.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2787.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
昨天這個大家都認為阿是我在網路上很多阿都是黃柳的大豐收日阿那我我一下來就教你們搶答好了秋刀魚的滋味貓和你都想了解知道這首歌誰唱了舉手你感覺怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2794.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2797.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但是重點不在這裡啦 重點是搶到票的滋味大部分的歌迷都沒有辦法了解 這個才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2813.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2830.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
為什麼連這個總長都請你上來了這不是小事情這是大事情對民眾來講的話如果說一場受到民眾大家都喜愛的一個演唱會然後大多數的人很公平的然後要去買這個票很公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2835.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2837.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我昨天的票這樣開慢以後在短短的20分鐘裡面就被搶光了那我想很多你們可能也要稍微注意一下很多歌迷就在臉書上講他說要在臉書上辦活動就算 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2855.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2870.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
爬到大巨蛋的下水道去聽周杰倫的演唱會這是很嚴重的事你知道嗎那當然我要接下來要請教各位的就是說我先撇開黃牛票的違法不談來看看一下投影片這個就涉及到我們的你看在62萬人的一個臉書裡面你看如果你是歌迷買不到票的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2884.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2906.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他秀上這樣的一個一個訊息上去你很有可能啊你很有可能喔這西裝的刮白他可能這個時候搶不到票理智縣都已經斷了一半啊很有可能馬上就去匯款囉一張這樣4880齁對吧4880是還好喔你看他說這四張的四張這樣兩萬塊就輕易我如果詐騙他如果詐騙集團齁輕易的就到手囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2913.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2925.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
今天就到手了那我要就教於各位的就是說我們在去年喔去年我們修法這樣子通過了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2926.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2943.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那是不是各位有沒有辦法去想到說我們除了主動的讓我們的消費大眾來做一個檢舉歌名來檢舉以外還有沒有什麼辦法來加速提升整個執法的一個效率因為我們在去年文化創意的產業發展條例文化創意產這個發展條條例發展法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2950.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2973.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們通過以後啊是說你用掃票機器人或者是用外掛的程式你如果用這樣的方式搶票的話這不正的手法三年以下有期徒刑甚至罰到三百萬可是問題是我們立法了我們立法了以後我們是說規定這樣的一個犯罪的一個太陽啊可是問題是有犯罪太陽可是你怎麼執行總長你怎麼知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2978.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2986.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
您可能比較屬於指揮啊可能第一線會在署長張署長您家跟刑事檢察局局長家。署長您有被搶到票嗎?也是搶不到啊。啊你也搶不到?你期望值有改變? |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2992.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2996.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那當然啦,這一般的民眾也是這樣。你也有可能也是歌迷啦,大家都喜歡聽啦。因為會把這一些像周杰倫啊,這些大牌的就是大家要聽他的歌嘛,做他的歌賣,這個沒有什麼不對啊。這對於都失蹤的聽到後心情越輕鬆的,還有共同成長的記憶啊,這個都很正常啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3013.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3039.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
可是呢站在執法機關的立場的話我們去年通過這樣的一個法律也賦予說如果說很可惡的你用這樣的一個方式掃票機器人或者外掛的程式去那我們你除了我來跟你檢舉說書店我都賣沒票捏阿是後來下課時間就用搶到料阿是不是有人用掃票機器人是不是有人用外掛的程式像這種方式的話你有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3040.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3062.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
從同步看出一定的端倪．或者說有什麼方式可以事先去做一個預防請教署長拜訪委員我想這個黃紐是大家都一直怨怒的一件事情剛剛委員所提的他是不是有沒有用AI或外外的程式來購買這個票第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3065.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3077.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們應該跟售票系統來做一個聯繫啦售票它的售票比如這一次是拓園嘛那這裡面有沒有同一個IP是一個IP裡面賣100張200張300張這種狀況跟售票系統來做一個聯繫有沒有異常的這樣的一個購票 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3085.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3109.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
來做從這方面去做一個啟蒂的源頭來啟蒂現在跟我說的是在說理論推演我現在是在跟他說這一次以這一次實際來就這一次那你們有去做嗎因為昨天才發生嘛那我昨天晚上就有下通報給全國的這個同仁從網路上類似這樣去做搜尋看看有沒有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3111.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3135.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
獲得票的就在賣票的這個行為那我曾經我跟委員報告我是從台北市來台北市的大巨蛋第一次在開幕賽的時候我就黃牛就抓了一百多個一百多個抓一百多個黃牛你這張拍什麼錄整個這張嗎?你不是說把他抓成這樣你錄不完嗎?我給你看一張我給你看介紹好不好這個是我很擔心是因為這樣子而涉及到我詐騙你去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3138.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3143.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你去看 搖滾區 一張加多少 除了6880以外喔 一張加四萬五喔 啊你如果5880的 一張加四萬三喔 4880的一張加三萬八 要想捏 那一張如果6880加四萬五一張票 五萬幾塊捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3159.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3186.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這個 這個我們會來追查啦是 我的意思是說上上在網路上這些流的這些賣票的這些的狀況我們都會網路形容來做追查那個真的不要開玩笑會來追查一張票它不是門票的一個價值而已啊它是承載了這些歌迷對他青春那個還有回憶還有偶像的深愛的一個後裔啊這個這種愛意啊 深厚的愛意啊那你注意去把它看 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3187.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3193.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我如果買不到票,剛好網路上像這樣秀出來以後,我有可能你說四年也好回去,回去都要詐騙,詐騙大家都挨挨救,所以我是認為說槍的一個方式,我們不要單消費者來啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3202.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3205.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
今天應該會有了接下來就是今天的重頭戲我看今天的整個修法裏面我請司法院副秘書長也上來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3223.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3245.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
科技偵查法的推動這個對於犯罪偵防是重大的一個進步也是一個法治國家裡面在打擊犯罪跟保障人權之間你如何去取得這樣的一個平衡不管是專法或刑事訴訟法我們既然把它列在刑事訴訟法的一個強制處分章裡面但是怎麼樣去把它按照那個強度 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3247.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3268.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那種對於當事人的一個侵害的或者說限縮權力的一個強度去做法律保留我相信不同的干預手段裡面都要有救濟那我最擔心的是什麼我們有干預處分然後你沒有救濟我們上次的修法其實我就不斷的提醒外公警察的部分你怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3270.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3284.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
按照民眾黨的版本通過了那大家共同承擔嘛那你現在要來補破網啦要來做一個這樣的一個救濟啦那我想請教的是說如果現在是按照民眾黨把一百五十三條之十全部都刪掉的話不要忘記喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3286.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3313.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我上次特別提醒我們也特別去把它加進去喔我們在整個一百五十三條之十一二三第五項的時候我們去特意把它定定依本章實施調查的方式所得的資料之保存管理跟消毀、懲暴、通知、救濟、監督其他相關事項的辦理要司法院會同行就你們要去定立執法欸今天這個如果全部都砍掉那你怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3315.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3336.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那這部分沒有放進來那我們上次整部修法失去他的意義啊我聽到不是這樣呢?大家想要死他將這個放進來這個我先預告一下我先提醒不能走回頭路把舊計有漏洞的把它補上來是對的但是把這個又把它給砍掉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3337.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3361.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我都覺得期期以為不可啦但是接下來就碰到一個問題啦你說像比如說強制抽血的部分那111年憲判制要出來以後那個部分啊這個屬於檢察官的一個要求20小時內呈報檢察官然後屬於檢察官的處分可以准看告可是呢我擔心的是說除了這些以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3363.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3386.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
還有沒有其他我們有漏洞掉那我們今天把警察的部分我們把他給含塞進來啦就說這個處分24小時這個你有處分以後有對人民有干預的那要給他一個救濟的管道我比較擔心的是說反而是碰到司法院這邊司法院要 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3387.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3400.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
府民長你就必須要很誠實的來講啦這樣的一個像一個準抗抗的一個方式會不會造成現在實務上你們會有很大的衝擊這第一個第二個你們如何來做一個應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3404.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3419.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
跟委員報告齁 那個准抗告的這個擴大齁 從我們事務院報告上我意思說 你們有難題 你們難題 你們有辦法改版過來我們這一部分的話 司法的量能案件一定會增加而且 而且說 我們報告裡面有寫齁 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3421.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3436.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
今天任何一個任何一個不管是司法警察或者其他人做的這個違法處分將來一定會有法律責任包含說國家賠償或者是或者是其他的這個責任追究那部分都要去判斷你一個機關的這個行為不管你是採尿驗尿這些東西都會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3437.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3456.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那麼是不是要在這個416那邊給一個中間性質的這個一個宣告違法而已那我們認為說這不能再做爭奪所以說實際上的執行面我們當然會做後續的這些的研議會跟法務部一起再來去面對這些的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3456.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3483.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我相信等一下我們進這部法律的審理到最後這個地方很有可能卡關了很有可能卡關了其實這個部分其實要向國人好好去做一個說明其實也要跟立法院來做一個溝通你怎麼樣去達到這樣的一個平衡啊一個法治國家裡面台灣已經進步到這種地步了你任何一個強制處分干預的一個手段裡面立法院這個地方一定會受到提醒嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3484.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3513.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這麼多的法界的甚至於你們在司法實務人也有時候也會來跟我們討論那我們也會在這個地方示警提出來那這個是我也希望說我也希望說我們在立法的時候這個部分不是單靠一套規則來解決所有的問題法務部這個地方你們確實也要去做一個反思就是說並且監督這些新法的一個實施裡面確保他們在合法的範圍來做一個執行而且你有充分的一個救濟的一個途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3514.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3537.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
保護老百姓的隱私或者那基本權利這個其實作為一個人的基本的啦各位不管部長不管是署長你們各位你們下班以後你們也都是人民啊那這些部分都是基本權利的一個保障啊所以我認為這個部分我們要特別小心尤其是我上次我們上次修法通過的整個科證法把新的武器給放進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3538.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3566.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們把這一些資料的保存跟管理的方式我們都已經建立那個機制我們的執法還沒有定上來這個部分輕易把它萬一有拿掉的話這個我反對站在行政部門你們的立場你們也都應該要去捍衛進步的方向本來就要一起走影響到整個司法院或者說整個法官這種量能不足的難題也要想辦法來做一個解決提出解決之道好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3568.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3569.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3590.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3615.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
在場委員先進列席政府監事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部正部長以及最高檢察署的新總長新總長部長好總長好部長總長請教一下依我們憲法的規定人民國民有沒有通訊的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3618.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3635.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
總統,我們的人民有沒有通訊的自由?有齁,你可以對著麥克風說齁。好,那軍人有沒有通訊的自由?部長有沒有?軍人有沒有通訊自由?就要看地點。看地點。總統,你認為呢?軍人有沒有通訊自由?在法定的規定範圍是有的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3637.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3650.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
總統因為我們是麥克風收音在法律規定的範圍內是在法律規定的範圍內有 這個很精準講輕鬆一點吧我的上一代當兵的人在金門馬祖的離島他們的通訊自由就是怎樣 寫信 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3652.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3676.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
甚至不一定有秘密通訊,隨便還被人家拆開來看當然基本上是有秘密通訊的自由是血性我當兵的時候我在兵營的通訊自由是輪到時間可以有個時間排隊去投幣室打電話問候家人找女朋友我兒子現在在當兵他的通訊自由是一段時間會發給他手機他可以上網去看LINE |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3678.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3698.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
議長總統你認為通訊自由是不是隨著通訊工具的科技變化在地點在情境下有所不同但是都是通訊自由這個是對總統也同意嘛同意那請問一下學生有沒有通訊自由學生學生有通訊的自由那學生會在課堂上開直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3699.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3727.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個是有上課的一個秩序的問題這是上課秩序問題總統你也同意嘛學生有些規定啊高中以下的學校他有規定你上課不能帶手機但是大學好像教授不能限制學生帶手機在課堂上使用但是呢如果學生拿著手機在跟教授開直播教授在講憲法他在底下跟教授吐然後開直播你覺得如果說教授制止學生這樣做有沒有侵犯了學生的通訊自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3730.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3752.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這是一個管理的問題這是管理的問題 總統你的看法呢這個喔 這樣講喔對於在這個中小學這個階段跟大學是不一樣因為中小學基本上他這個有授教權但是有老師教學的自由 自主教學自主所以在這個中小學包括高中以下大學又另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3755.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3777.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
告鐘以下學校可以規定學生上課不能帶手機但是大學的時候教授只有在你開直播的時候說同學請把手機收起來好可以齁好來我們看我們之前看到的民眾黨所提的二二八之一他的談衝勳自由跟人自由很快的說原來的二二八呢是傳喚被告經傳喚自首或自刑到場在有必要的施壓的時候呢可以具以逮捕 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3778.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3805.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
但是民眾黨提案281他說非經合法逮捕或拘停不得去拘束或限制被告的什麼?人身自由跟通訊自由。他把人身自由跟通訊自由分別的從羈押逮捕當中抓出來寫。那他說如果是自行的配合調查的應該事前告知,這個我想沒有問題。但是如果還沒有在經合法逮捕之前,他的人身自由跟通訊自由是不受限制的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3806.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3811.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那人身自由甚至他可以自由離去那請問部長你認同這樣的一個修法條文嗎?這個我們剛才有講說這個漸行保留漸行保留那個總長呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3823.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3851.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
在我們第一線司法機關的話我們的看法是這個也是保留要保留好來我們看一下案例討論檢察官懷疑某假涉及詐騙集團激發傳票叫某假下週五來遞檢說明那某假就找了律師某以擔任辯護人如期到案在詢問中檢察官發現假涉嫌重大甚至連辯護人以也知情甚至兩個人試圖往上去聯絡集團問題一檢察官可以限定假以的通訊自由嗎部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3853.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3881.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
在偵查中的詢問、詢問的過程中那如果說可以賦予他隨時通訊的一個自由就是你認為他不可以嗎?是不是?我認為是不可以來總長那你認為那這種情況之下假的人身自由有沒有被限制?在剛剛部長所說的不准他用手機那這個時候假的人身自由有沒有被限制?在這個案例上他的人身自由在詢問當中你不可以用手機啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3883.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3909.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我還在詢問中啊還沒逮捕嘛對不對他的人身有什麼限制他這個影響到我們檢察官的偵辦影響到這個對我是說偵辦當中不准律師或被告使用手機有沒有限制到同時限制到人身自由這個限制是合法的沒有限制到人身自由沒有好來我們看案例來實際的案例有個通靈律師這報上寫的齁那台南律師一個收押兩個交保因為呢他在陪同被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3911.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3920.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
閱讯的時候他洩漏了偵查方向然後往前面的共犯去通查檢察官詢問的時候發現辯護人有這種情況遇到辯護人有這種情況之後部長怎麼辦?辯護人如果在他進行越眷權在場權的時候他是不是有違反二四五條第四項偵查不公開有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3935.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3957.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
有這個規定嘛對不對好那如果這樣的話請問總長那是不是可以根據228第4項對於這個被告呢我們就予以當庭逮捕還是對於如果被告這樣做是不是可以當庭逮捕辯護人是有月券跟在場陪同嘛他如果有洩漏你可以根據245第4項嘛那如果被告這樣做的話怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3960.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3966.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
委員講的是被告被告在偵訊中他就開始要跟外面通訊阿要去串供阿你可以怎麼辦這個這樣子齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3972.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3972.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
閱议長 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3992.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4017.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那若檢察官發現辯護人有這個問題也可以把他逮捕嘛對不對他有洩漏偵查方案也可以逮捕辯護人嘛可不可以這個是一個泄密的問題對泄密的問題嘛所以防止詐團律師泄密那難道就不用防止被告串證嗎你可以要防止辯護人泄密難道你你可以不用理會被告串證嗎所以檢察律師不可以把徵訊陪同徵訊聽到的內容對外透露那被告可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4018.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4045.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個被告也是不行當然被告也是不行嘛往下看好來所以說我們看到目前二十八字印呢有一個特別的本來二十八本文他寫傳喚自首跟自行到場在二十八字印呢他把自行到場後面再增加一個自願同行配合調查好那看清楚了我後面會問請你記起來往下看請問自願到場就是配合調查嗎自願到場自首算不算配合調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4047.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4074.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個就是一個沒有被拘捕的一個到場沒有被拘捕的情況我自首還沒有被拘捕我這自首就表示我我要被調查嘛我承認犯罪嘛我自自行到場也是配合調查嘛我希望你調查我自行到場嘛好那我自願同行是不是也是配合你的調查這個就是一個配合調查好那我們看看要拘捕好具體逮捕限制人身的方式來第一具體要拘票對不對有一二三四五有五種 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4075.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4100.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
的法條有講到這個狀況。那逮捕呢不需要拘票有這三種狀況。那請問一下刑事程序當中要限制人身自由的原則是不是要遇到法定的程序?就是要拘提跟逮捕。哇我看到總長一直點頭點很用力沒錯往下看。好所以那麼怎麼樣開啟詢問被告的程序一種是說如果被告已經拘提逮捕了那就詢問嘛詢問只有五個方式嘛釋放拘保、責負、限住住、追身押嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4101.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4109.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那如果傳喚或自願到場的時候你在進行詢問之後你要不就是根據二十八第四項當庭逮捕那 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4110.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4132.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
如果你已經逮捕了就不用那就交給法院採訪機啊那請問如果某假是受到傳喚至到道場他的人身自由那時候是不是還沒有受到限制沒有沒有所以你後來詢問之後你就這五種方式那必要的時候根據第四項當庭逮捕是不是這樣是好那我都沒有講人名啊齁大家都知道去對照一下人事實例會在講誰啊齁好那我們看一看所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4133.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4154.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
違法拘提逮捕的後續效果如果沒有進行前置的程序沒有告知那違反拘提的前置程序可不可以拘押這個法院就是有可能嘛違法逮捕不可以拘押嘛那有沒有可能觸犯妨害自由或濫訴追訴的濫權追訴的這個罪名如果違法逮捕這個如果說有違法逮捕的話這有可能會觸犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4155.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4184.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好所以說非經合法逮捕本來就不能限制人身自由對不對所以這個我們沒有爭議是不是這樣子那我們討論的是什麼我們討論的是通訊的問題來往下看所以道場的種類剛剛講的傳喚是偵查已發動嘛但是呢被告呢他是這樣被動或者是間接強制道場是不是這樣子傳喚的時候偵查已經發動了是不是這樣第二個至少是偵查沒有發動但是呢被告主動道場是不是這樣子主動表達嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4185.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4185.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
閱议員（刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4208.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4236.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以關於這次我們要修法的內容除我本席所主張的一十五之十非經合法逮捕或拘提檢察官司法警察或司法警察不得拘束或限制被告或犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由這個是毫無疑問的那你覺得通訊自由有同時在這個過程當中要特別表明嗎這個通訊自由這個不用特別去做一個表明那至於說在後段 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4237.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4261.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
第二項對於自行到場或自願同行在我看來它都是含設在配合調查到場少兩個到場兩個字齁它都是配合調查到場的類型你同不同意自行到場或自願同行它都是顯現被告配合調查到場的類型你覺得可以這樣子表達嗎用配合調查到場來含設前面兩個自行到場或自願同行 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4262.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4274.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
應該是一致的是一致的好那在這種情況之下如果被告他是配合調查到場的情況之下您覺得他的通訊自由有可以完全受到保障不用限制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4275.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4280.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個通訊自由事實上在不管是傳喚或自行盜藏或什麼盜藏或盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4302.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4324.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個是有偵查不公開的一個反對偵查他是被告啊被告有偵查不公開的憲制這個是因為整個一個在在一個法庭的一個偵查庭裡面的一個詢問對於被告不是偵查不公開啊對我這個我知道但是這個是對整個因為章友詢問不一定只有被告嘛是的而且偵查內容不能夠外洩出去嘛偵查內容不得外洩我被告雖然沒有偵查不公開的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4325.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4325.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
閱议人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4342.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4370.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以在這裡面如果我們寫上了通訊自由就像我剛問你國民有沒有通訊自由軍人有沒有通訊自由學生有沒有通訊自由學生可不可以在課堂上拿著手機對老師上課開直播大家都認為不可以詐團的律師去聯絡詐團的其他共犯就甚至會被辯護人員逮捕了更何況被告不能主張他只是傳喚還沒被監禁逮捕的時候他就擁有通訊自由可以任意的洩露偵查中的一個秘密更何況他是配合調查到場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4374.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4382.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
總統你認為剛剛的論述我看到你們最具體的寫在你們報告裡面你們是反對的是不是這樣子你們是不同意這個通訊自由的請說最後幾分幾秒鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4385.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4408.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
報告因為這個228條之一提出來這個裡面他基本上他這個範圍是比較廣泛的可是剛剛委員他有限縮這個範圍這個在討論上當然結果是不太一樣的那結果你們總長你們的文字意見你們是同意哪一種你們是認同哪一種當然剛剛依照委員那個所含涉這個議題的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4411.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4421.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
如果這樣講起來那個通訊自由大概會對偵查影響比較大。而人身自由保障這個我們司法機關是沒有意義的。很好!謝謝!謝謝總長!謝謝部長!好!謝謝!那我們下一位請黃國昌委員進行詢答。 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4439.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4440.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長跟檢察總長部長、總長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4453.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4478.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
部長早 總長早第一題先請教一下總長因為一樣的問題我之前問過部長請總長看一下這是看不下去的基層檢察官請法務部開課要學習怎麼樣被媒體經營可以請經營多年的學長們擔任講座學長應該就是值得比較資深的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4480.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4506.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
對於現今檢媒一體的亂象毫無積極作為使檢察官失去人民的信任將檢察官的名氣踩在腳下終將成為檢方歷史的罪人這個有檢察官寫給北京檢察長高檢檢察長跟檢察總長來請請檢察總長檢察總長檢察官的心聲這個有聽到嗎有看到有看到嗎你認不認同他的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4508.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4527.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個委員是指的哪一方面?指的他說啊他第一個說沒有沒有沒有他講的是兩個現象嘛第一個是檢了議題的亂象嘛第二個他說三個大家長都沒有積極作為第一個是現象第二個是他對你們的指控檢查總長贊不贊成這樣說啦齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4532.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4557.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我們先把主持弄一下就是說是什麼樣的這個主持怎麼樣就是這個議題的主持是什麼就是說現今的檢檢媒體亂象還是是第一個對檢媒體的亂象當然了這個現在這個主題是不是亂象這個是見仁見智不過不過這個在所有辦案的場合我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4560.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4584.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
都會事先跟檢察官提醒齁你認為這個亂象存不存在這個偵查不公開一定要切實做到那個總長你認為這個亂象存不存在第一個答案很簡單嘛第一個是這個檢察官有誤會嘛不要說檢察官胡說八道啦他可能有誤會根本沒有這個亂象嘛如果沒有這個亂象就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4585.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4613.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
有沒有這個亂象如果有亂象如果有的話那我們必須要強調一點偵查不公開是我們檢察官的基本倫理基本的道德就在各種場合我都跟檢察官提醒了他們事實上他們說你們毫無作為你認不認同這個講到這點我講的引申到第二點這個所謂的委員委員所長的作為是指什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4616.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4625.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個我跟總長溝通一下這不是我說的這個是基層檢察官說的那現在他們說你們毫無作為嘛解沒議題的亂象所以我才跟你講嘛你如果不認為有解沒議題的亂象的話就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4641.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4664.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們司法院有一個叫做偵查不公開作業辦這還是個法規命令這裡面規定的非常的嚴格啦他這裡面不但是偵查的內容包括過偵查的程序都不公開規定的是非常嚴格但是在實務上他的配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4665.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4687.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
並不充足包括實務上的運作卷證包括這個裁定書或是抗告書等等規定了實務上並沒有那麼的周延所以在總長我先停一下第一個你覺得目前規範上面的規範不是那麼周延嗎這是一個原因之一沒有關係我先就這個問題就好因為我後面還有重要的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4689.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4704.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
針對規範不周延的部分最高檢察署有沒有打算要推進有更周延的規範這我要說明這個職責這個職權是我們司法院在主持你有沒有要建議司法院有更周延的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4705.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4726.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
但如果有需要我們最高檢察署當然有需要嘛那是不是會後請總長把您認為哪裡規範不周延的部分用書面提供給我們參考因為你如果今天檢察總長都說規範不周延啊知識體大我們共同來推動啊規範的周延所以拜託總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4727.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4749.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
會後用書面告訴大家哪裡規範不周延相關的配套好可以相關的配套上一次啊我問總長兩個案子嘛一個是RNB案另外一個是泰建案跟北檢告發的那天您跟我說啊你痛心疾首可是10月7號的時候啊鄭明謙跟我說啊最高檢簽結了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4752.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4775.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們先把具體的問題搞清楚違反偵查不公開相關的作業辦法有行政調查的部分有沒有洩密的部分是刑事偵查的部分嗎我這樣說應該沒有錯吧我們法律也把行政調查跟刑事偵查分清楚政部長所說的最高檢牽結的應該是指的刑事偵查的部分吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4778.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4784.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
欸這樣子我跟委員報告齁那天委員提到事情事實上我後面還沒有講完剛好今天很感謝委員有這個機會讓我做個說明齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4788.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4808.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
裡面有很多的因素我剛剛講的只是前面一個這個我了解然後很多在實務上運作的一些總長不好意思我時間有限我們講具體的部分就好了正部長說陳鮑最高檢最高檢牽結了他說的有沒有錯還是根本沒這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4809.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4829.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
是有牽結還是沒有牽結這個問題很具體啦檢查行政是這個行政上的責任的追究所以先停一下啦現在我們在討論的是行政調查還是刑事偵查刑事偵查當然是我們檢查對所以您現在在講的是刑事偵查還是行政調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4831.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4839.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我現在講的是這個行政調查檢查行政的部分是屬於這個部裡的職權那刑事偵查的督導是屬於最高檢察署 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4840.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4868.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那所謂部長所謂的呈報最高檢牽結的指的是行政還是刑事我們這個資料來了之後我們是發交到這個地人署去啦所以是行政調查所以是行政還是行事當然發交到台高檢署去他們就做調查調查的時候兩個這個層次如果有違反刑事的話那就刑事偵查就辦刑事責任了而如果只是行政疏忽的話那就行政懲戒了那最後的結論呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4870.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4892.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這結論我們發交下去之後到了台高檢署他們後來怎麼樣處理的並沒有並沒有通知我們最高檢沒有通知你們沒有沒有那奇怪了那部長怎麼會說最高檢牽結了這跟委員做一個補充齁這個是有北檢有分案調查或整個整個一個有呈那個行等一下北檢的分案調查是刑事偵查還是行政調查先講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4893.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4909.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
是行政還是刑事這是一個行政調查是行政調查所以行政調查牽結的是北檢牽結的嗎這個把那個一個調查的一個結果那個有呈報到最高檢總長你有看到這個調查的結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4915.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4934.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
行政調查是屬於檢查行政那刑事偵查才是我們督導的範圍當時來了之後回來之後我馬上就分案發交到台高檢署然後發到台北地檢署他們是說在刑事上查無不法刑事他們回報我們就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4935.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4941.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
行政調查的部分是不是也結束了請教部長這個也是結束了所以你那天在回答的時候是行事偵查還是行政調查我是強調是行政調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4961.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4975.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
結束的結果可以書面提供給我們嗎?行政調查的部分啦。行事偵查有不公開的問題嘛。我尊重啦。昨天已經發函給委員了。昨天發函給我嘛。好。OK。來。講齁。請檢察總長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4979.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4997.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
閱能的貪腐一直是你在擔任檢察總長的時候非常重要的功課。談言閱能的事情我從去年年初就開始追了啦我從去年年初就開始追我追這件案子都是公開追的啦我講的事情都很具體所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4999.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5028.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
最近開始進行了這樣子的一個調查那當然就台元綠能的部分最近台南地檢署也啟動了一個偵辦的程序對台南地檢署這樣偵辦的效率總長滿不滿意這我這樣說我們那個綠能我們政府長一向就非常的重視那台南地檢署這個案子事實上他們偵辦是有一段時間是沒錯我們也看到輿論所以我請教你效率滿不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5030.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5047.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這我要這樣說哇這個調查案件本來就是要需要時間是這個我了解民主的社會是是是然後還有法院是相關的一些這個我都了解了因為我也可以跟總長還有跟部長報告了我檢舉過非常多的案子了有很多現在還躺在台北地檢署啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5048.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5073.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
躺了三年的都有啊我也是靜靜的等待啊靜靜等待看檢察官什麼時候醒來要辦啊我也是非常耐心的等待啊因為偵查不公開嘛他辦不辦有沒有什麼具體作為外界無從得知啊只能尊重嘛但這個案子竟然啟動了所以我才請教總長說這個案子的效率滿不滿意台灣地檢署偵辦這個案子啊的進度有沒有跟您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5074.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5104.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我能不能跟委員請教一下沒有不好意思我請教一下總長台南地檢署辦這個案子有沒有跟您報告有有嘛對嘛我就喜歡總長這樣講話就事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣因為我知道啊你10月你應該是10月16號的時候下去台南嘛你10月16號下去台南的時候他們有沒有跟你報告案件的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5105.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5132.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們辦案件我跟委員報告一下他是個需要時間的量來磨的啦他們辦的相當長而且非常的辛苦啦所以這個效率你滿不滿意他的進度都有跟你報告嘛因為我掌握到的狀況也是這樣嘛滿不滿意就看接下來我講個問題嘛就看結果我就很冒昧問一句話委員對結果有什麼感覺沒有到目前為止沒有任何結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5134.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5156.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
對啊 這個案子還沒有癥結啊對嘛 所以我才問你效率的問題我盡量不要碰到內容的問題內容的部分尊重你們檢方的偵辦嘛總長你沒有發現我作為一個法律人現在哪裡我畫的很清楚啦效率跟結果齁 這要一起來觀察的啦好 沒有關係齁 我今天利用質詢的時間啊 就公開檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5158.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5187.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就公開檢舉因為綠能貪腐的弊案按照最高檢察署的新聞稿這個是卓榮泰他也很重視嘛部長也很重視嘛檢察總長是是是那我就公開檢舉了劉河再生的案子我先把背景講這些資訊我之前全部都公開講過了劉河再生後台很硬啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5188.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5213.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
全部都是跟綠營權貴在一起剛愁交錯時間地點我全部都確認過沒有錯丟了五千八百萬到屏東社辦公室幫潘孟安養他退休的官員這些我全部都公開講過但這個只有牽涉到政商分際的事情違法的部分不是這裡我繼續往下講來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5215.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5221.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
經濟部工業局張斌工業區違法套利2.63億這個我也有公開說過但問題是什麼但問題是這根本是一個違法套利的行為針對這個違法套利的行為是以特別股創造虛偽的假象 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5235.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5247.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這些事情我全部都公開檢舉過留合再生在違法了以後避免被終止合約還有找我們的立法院民進黨的大黨編出來喬事情這個他 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5248.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5273.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
也承認了因為我照片時間地點我全部都秀出來但接下來的結果是什麼經濟部違法放水圖利什麼叫做違法放水圖利你明明就知道明明就知道不應該讓他這樣套利但是我們經濟部卻點頭了我們經濟部點頭的這件事情是違法不是我一個人講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5274.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5298.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們的監察院終於醒來了終於醒來了到今年夏天的時候到今年夏天的時候他也認定了這是一個違法套利的立案這件事情在最高檢察署也好高檢署也好所成立的利能貪腐的這個打擊犯罪的專案小組裡面有沒有立案 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5302.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5321.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
委員錘詢是我們最高檢察署是嗎?目前沒有?目前沒有嘛我這個人說話有一說一我從來不做空泛的指控我把整個歷程今天利用質詢的時間我公開跟最高檢察署提出我的檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5324.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5332.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
夠不夠誠發動刑事偵辦的要件我尊重檢察官的判斷但這件事情我覺得非常離譜 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5333.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5356.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我覺得非常離譜從我開始追這件案子追到現在跟我之前在追檯岩綠能的案子一樣跟我之前在追檯岩綠能的案子一樣都一年多了我很有耐心的等到檯岩綠能的弊案終於動了那動了就像剛檢察總長所講的我們靜靜的看最後的結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5356.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5375.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
但聯合再生的這個案子我就覺得很困惑我一樣啊公開揭發了這麼久到今年夏天我們的監察院終於認證我說的是真的那接下來我所以才今天利用這個機會請教你嘛你們有沒有立案如果沒有立案的話我利用今天公開質詢的時間啊公開檢舉這樣可以嗎好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5387.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5410.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好謝謝那我們下一位請審法會委員進行詢答主席我們請政部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5414.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5428.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
其實這個司法院可能是不是一起上來?委員長 蜂蜜這個我們蜂蜜部長好 我們部長早 這個可能因為畢竟齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5430.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5447.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
畢竟我們這個刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院所以還是要麻煩這個副秘書長上來一下但是其實我們今天有關這個刑事訴訟法這些相關的修正很大部分可能在執行上面的問題都是法務部那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5452.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5467.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我也看了你們書面報告但是基本上看起來這個司法院跟法務部在就這個今天我們的這些修正條文的看法跟立場其實相當接近相當接近但是司法院也把大部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5468.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5482.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
的問題就是說大概都是大概簡單講就是要請法務部斟酌判斷就是說你們認為說這是法務部的問題那副部長請回我等一下如果有相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5483.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5501.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
有需要你回答的時候再請你上來所以部長所以今天看起來大部分這幾條的修正案都是我們法務部會牽涉到我們法務部在偵查在這個相關的這些執行上面的層面的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5504.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5517.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我大概整理一下看一下今天我們這個大概有莊嘉斌委員的提案跟我們台灣民眾黨的提案這兩個案子裡面他有修正的條文我大概做了一個整理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5520.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5538.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
大概有三個部分做了調整第一個就是有關這個特殊強制處分的這個救濟程序的這個第一百五十三條之十這個鍾佳濱委員有做修正他主要是加入了這個警察這個司法警察的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5542.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5564.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
但是台灣民眾黨的提案是整條全條刪除他把他全部把這個特殊強制處分的救濟程序全部把它回歸到跟一般的救濟程序404跟416他大概全部都回歸另外第二個部分就是有關偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5565.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5593.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
的兩條規定一條是偵查中的人身自由跟通訊自由這個部分另外一條他也是刪除這個就是有關這個禁止辯護人在場陳述意見等等這些相關的這些這些問題他也是回歸到406、416大概是這樣的看法那他在針對406跟416他因為回歸所以在406、416做一些抗告的部分做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5595.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5612.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那這個是不是這樣部長我剛才今天的修正草案大概是這樣的內容整理大概所以重點在於說第一個這個有一些部分我們在等一下法案討論主條的時候再跟你討論但是有一些部分我覺得應該要談就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5615.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5642.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
按照台灣民眾黨的版本齁你如果說在這個將這個一百我先談一百一百五十三條之十啦齁按照台灣民眾黨的版本他把他全條刪除之後回歸到406跟416他406跟416之後他再加上說有關第十一章的這些強制指紋專章的相關規定但是這裡面發生一個我看到一個比較大的問題就是他這些相關的程序回歸了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5645.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5672.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
但是他有關第五項這個授權定令這個依本章實施後的這個這個調查方式所得資料是保存管理銷毀陳報通知救濟監督及其他相關事項的辦法由司法院會同行政院定之這個部分不見了這條這個被這個在他回他回到404 416之後他這個部分並沒有過去也就是說如果按照民眾黨版本那麼我們這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5674.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5676.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以我們還是要回復到特殊強制處分專章裡面的授權的來訂定的一個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5702.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5723.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我是說如果這一條刪除了就不見了嗎?你的授權規定就不見了。那我們這個刑事訴訟法這個修正我們在7月31號公布到今天兩個多月這個授權這個訂定的這些相關的這些資料保存管理銷毀陳報的這些相關規定我們有沒有進度有沒有在做? |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5730.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5736.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
11月30號會完成11月30號11月30號11月30號會完成我們在這過程中我知道我們其實已經開了好幾次會議在研議了這個從這個好像我們7月31號公布之後你們8月13號你們就有召開有關這個強制處分特殊相關辦法的一個一個諮詢會議那這個這個也召開在9月16又召開了這個研修 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5760.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5773.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
諮詢會議研修會議到這個禮拜21號22號就是前兩天前兩天你們又召開了特殊強制處分實務學術交流研討會議這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5776.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5792.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
現在這樣子有沒有基本的草案或者是共識這個是屬於司法院主政的這一部分那個整個那個刑事訴訟法的相關的執法這是司法我們是本部的話是通報法那一部分你們是通報法部分好來副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5794.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5798.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那如果在今天的會議最後結果是153條之十刪除了,那你們這個規定的法源在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5817.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5842.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
根據就會不見了所以我們的報告裡面想說請委員這部分能夠慎重因為像這些特殊偵查的科技偵查的成果要怎麼處理這個在除了大家關切以外我們參考了其他的國家其實是非常周密要做非常周密的規範的恐怕不能只有一個條文弄到416然後這麼單純的去處理像日本是非常詳密的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5844.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5861.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
您說要把它跟一般的強制處分的程序一樣我想這個恐怕科技偵查這種特殊強制處分的這種這種他的這些不管取得資料的保存等等他跟一般的強制處分會有蠻大的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5862.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5872.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
所以尤其是這一條的法律授權規定被拿掉個人認為是影響是蠻大的所以這個希望說等一下在修法的時候請本委員會的委員大家在這個部分能夠斟酌考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5874.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5882.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那另外一個我剛剛講說今天還有很多的法條的部分另外一個我個人在這邊跟跟這個副部長請回跟部長來討論有關這個第228條之一這個民眾黨黨團所提出的這個草案他們提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5893.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5905.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
提出來基本上在這個有關自行到場或自願陪同的徵詢過程中他可以擁有人身自由跟通訊自由這個相關規定你有什麼樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5907.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5924.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個人身自由這部分如果說不是依法具體逮捕的都是有人身的一個自由這個我們必要保障的嘛對那但是如果說是那個通訊自由的話在偵查中在在偵查他這個自行到場跟跟自願自願同行這個算不算在偵查中啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5925.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5943.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
而這個是到就是到就訓的一個方式是到接受檢查訓問的一個方式因為傳喚是檢查是依傳票來通知傳喚他到自行調查的話是他自己主動因為民眾黨黨團提案他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5944.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5954.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
他們這個這個所修修改部分最主要就是對於自行到場或自願同行自願同行這部分目前在刑事訴訟法裡面有自願同行這樣沒有這個這個其實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5955.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5982.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
自刑稻草的一個 自刑稻草有啦 自刑稻草第二十二 第二二二八條有 但自願同行 自願同行他的 我 我 我 不然就是自願嘛 他沒有自願他怎麼會起來呢對 自願同行是 他總是有定義在法律上 你要聽聽在法律條文裡面他有定義啊 自願同行跟自刑稻草 他其實自願同行沒有這個用語 沒有這個用語 這個就是一個自刑稻草的一個方式嘛 包含在這裡面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5983.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5991.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以假設要是照這樣修了你認為自願同情就可以刪掉他就是罪羽就對一來法院上目前沒有定義嘛但是自行道場自行道場他 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5997.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6017.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
現在有關自行到場我們在規定裡面也只有第二百二十八條有所規定那自行到場之後事實上他們還沒有受任何的這個司法的的這個任何的法律消息所以理論上他自行到場到他真的這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6019.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6045.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
有到必須要羈押或者是必須要做處分的之前他這個理論上他應該是擁有百分之百的人身自由跟通訊自由啊這個理論上好像聽起來是有道理的啊部長這個是人身自由是要保障但是如果說有必須要羈押的必要當然檢察會進行的依法來逮捕吧對那所以這一條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6047.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6063.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
理論上他都還沒有進入任何的處分的程序他當然是理論上應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由通訊自由這個要在偵查中現在我要跟你爭執他自願到場之後這個算是偵查了嗎進入偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6064.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6065.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
如果開了偵查庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6083.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6096.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這個都沒有關係嗎?這是通訊自由（因為檢查要徵訊要徵訊的話他一定要被告到場那被告到場的話他有行這種方式嗎?我現在要跟你跟你要談的就是因為自願到場自願到場 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6100.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6116.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
在理論上他確實是在沒有受任何的處分之前他確實是應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由因為他沒有受任何處分嘛但是我知道說事實上在偵查如果說你進入了偵查的階段那當然這個這個這個說還想有通訊自由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6120.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6142.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
對偵查會有很大的摯愛例如說他就有瞭解了偵查的方向跟你偵查內容重點是他就有可能有透過通訊串供或者是通知供範或者是相關的這些其他的湮滅證據等等這樣子的透過通訊來進行各位像那個詐團的話我們發現有這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6148.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6161.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
是有這種問題是還是你們還是得解決我剛剛所講的問題就他在未受任何處分之前他當然享有憲法所保障的人身自由跟通訊自由啊所以你如何讓資源到場到我們這個做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6163.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6191.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這是對這個當事人做出處分之前這樣子的這個自行到場的這個法律效力我覺得這個部分在等一下我們逐條的時候我想部長你這個部分是不是能夠等一下我們還是會再探討這個一樣同樣的問題這是你憲法守保障的人身自由跟通訊自由以及但是跟委員報告就是說當檢查在徵訊的時候那個就通訊自由就要做限制了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6192.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6218.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
對但是這是開始徵訊訊問就要限制了就像我們老師剛剛委員講說老師要上課上課就不能再打手機我想這個是這一條修法到時候我們等一下逐條討論這一條修法最大的一定癥結就在這裡就在於憲法保障的通訊自由跟人身自由你是不是到了你可以限制你沒有任何處分的情況下是不是可以限制他的問題好不好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6222.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6222.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主席有請部長麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6247.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6253.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
議員早請問部長齁昨天我針對偵查不公開的質詢你覺得我是在干涉個案嗎?這部分我也沒有提到個案的問題來謝謝你感謝部長公開打臉的吳思堯吳思堯就是一個想護航卻常常幫倒忙的綠色豬隊友啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6272.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6287.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我要謝謝部長端正視聽我昨天沒有干涉個案謝謝部長還我清白不過我也要問問部長吳世堯昨天影射我是質詢是干涉個案他說這個干涉個案的質詢對部長會不會產生很大的壓力部長你回答什麼你回答你承受了莫大的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6300.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6313.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
來來來我問部長我到底給了你什麼壓力請問部長我有像柯建銘一樣關說你叫你指揮底下的檢察官不要上訴柯建銘讓他無罪逃獄嗎有沒有我昨天有沒有我有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6316.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6338.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個科總招不會給我做這樣的一個...我說我啦!我有沒有學科總招啦!欸拜託!部長!部長!全民電通案!全民電通案科建民之所以可以無罪逃獄是因為沒有關說司法罪但全民電通案鐵針針的事實他就去關說司法機關啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6340.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6354.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
來再想請教你下一個問題喔那我有像前法務部長邱泰山一樣針對醫院的逃落稅案關說桃園地檢署的檢察長嗎有沒有欸這部分喔我有沒有啦你不要管別人啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6355.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6360.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我沒有啦我沒有啦拜託拜託沒關係啊部長你的風格我知道再來我再問你喔還是說我是賴清德的愛將我要你大辦在野黨小辦執政黨你很掙扎 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6372.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6383.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
有嗎?有沒有?當然沒有啊!我不太理解啦!我一個在野黨立委到底能給你多麼莫大的壓力啦!當然我跟你講啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6386.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6403.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我一個在野黨立委在立法院接入今天許多偵查公開的訊息免利你們捍衛刑事訴訟法的偵查不公開是能給你什麼莫大的壓力還干涉個案我要跟部長說來來來沒關係你捍衛我尊重你我只給部長一個勸告吳思瑤就是立法院有名的造謠王 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6415.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6440.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
經常當豬隊友亂造謠我順便舉個例子今天部長你為人剛正不偷不搶嘛對不對沒錯吧謝謝委員肯定當然啊結果今天有個吳造謠隊的吳志強說我跟你講鄭明謙就是一個一天到晚偷人家東西的人他跟我這樣講然後我回答說對對對是是是我看到他偷我壓力很大我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6441.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6465.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這個例子當然不存在啦可是我要跟你講什麼當你附和一個造謠者就是一個造謠的共犯什麼叫承受莫大的壓力昨天我們主席還問你這個問題你也不肯回答謝謝你今天還我清白因為抱歉事關我名譽啊我非得問不可啊我還是感謝部長只是誠懇的奉勸部長不要再附和吳造謠啦吳思堯的造謠王啦來我想請教我們檢查總長總長謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6471.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6498.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
來部長你也留著因為待會有問題要問你請問總長一一三年憲判制第八號出爐已經一個月了針對目前三十七位死刑犯初步認定他們會提非常上訴還是不會提非常上訴的數量大概多少或你已經有介紹哪些提非常上訴了有沒有開始提非常上訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6503.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6528.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
委員這個問題很感謝委員關心這個問題因為牽涉到很多人權的那我們現在最高檢察署把這個卷都調來之後我們再研究啦那在10月24號我們跟委員報告說這個案子現在都已經本署分案了那我們現在依照審判日8號的判決意旨在逐案逐項的研議中跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6530.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6559.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你給我講了15秒鐘完全在浪費我的時間這個答詢的風格我很欣賞有多少人已經提了你不知道就這麼簡單這個提非常上訴總不是一個所謂的秘密事項吧好啦沒關係啦沒關係我問你下一題這題都不肯回答沒關係來想請教齁如果今天總長你幫死刑犯這37位死刑犯提出非常上訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6560.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6576.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
假設今天我們的法院按照大法官的審判意旨發回更審來撤銷原判請問這些死刑犯會不會被放出來我問部長好了來部長法律你比他懂一點來部長會不會放出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6581.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6592.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們會窮盡一切力量來阻止這些來鬼打牆我就照你會鬼打牆沒關係請問申請羈押的要件是什麼有哪幾個要件滿足才能夠羈押你要申請羈押嘛對不對這個這個剛才委員問的問題我不是申請羈押一秒鐘兩秒鐘三秒鐘來沒關係會議詢問他又不回答問題了主席會議詢問時間暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6608.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6632.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
請問主席你也當過檢察官申請羈押要件有哪幾種啊?申請羈押依照刑事訴訟法101條是逃亡或者是有篡證湮滅證據之餘然後另外還有一個重罪羈押是重罪五年以上重罪之外然後有逃亡跟湮滅證據之餘另外還有一個101條之一是預防性羈押還有反復實施犯罪之餘就會有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6634.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6649.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
部長學學我們會議主席啦回答這麼清楚我就問一個問題法院在審酌這些所謂的羈押要件的時候你去申請羈押法務部申請羈押講話申請羈押我想請問法官就會准嗎滿足這個要件嗎有滿足嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6653.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6678.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
你又答不出來沒關係我再問你喔我問你下一個問題沒關係沒關係我告訴你第一個我們已經講過了你沒辦法左右法院嘛法院決定採不採你的羈押的理由這個問題可以問司法院嘛沒關係嘛這個我不是承辦法官嘛但是我想我們檢方能見我已經講過很多次了我們就是用好啦好啦我跟你講啊我不為難你啦你跟我講你保證會申請羈押嘛你上次講的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6679.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6696.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你保證會要求法官羈押你上次保證現在又不是沒關係你要跟我混時間來來來問下一個問題沒關係啊這題跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6711.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6725.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個那個那個這個那個會議詢問停止時間15個月會議時間來我們請問我們的主席那個我可以講嗎 羈押多久沒關係啊你剛剛都混時間我倒是問主席快一點如果是10年以下的罪的話是依照刑事訴訟法108條是 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6727.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6728.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以壓了15個月壓到極限以後就得放人嘛是不是請問主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6751.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6780.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
當然啦因為在審理中你只能你是在問我嗎審理中是只有羈押我問他我剩一分鐘他問他都不回答啊我只好問會議主席啦因為審理中是只有羈押才能限制被告人身自由我等一下我待會一分鐘那你做結論我們先請會議詢問請主席開始一下就是審理中的話是只有羈押才能限制被告人身自由只有這個方式而已好那我現在請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6782.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6787.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們按照妥數審判法第五條請問在什麼情況之下人就得放出來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6789.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6817.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
就是第五條的規定阿我講的妥數阿他寫的第五條規定阿我不懂問你嘛來你沒關係你答不出來來會議詢問第三次請主席回答主席妥數存在嗎在什麼情況之下人又會被放出來因為依照妥數審判法只要是十年以上的重罪他是可以延壓六次所以再加積壓三個月所以總共是十五個月他是他的最高的極限那裡面有規定嘛審判中積壓期限累計不得逾五年嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6819.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6846.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
裡面也有規定說今天審判中延期羈押最重是死刑無期徒刑有期徒刑十年以上一審二審六次違憲第三審一次違憲所以很簡單我要做一個結論來聽聽我們的部長第一個你的保證申請羈押不等於法院會採納因為他不認為說你按照刑事訴訟法一百零一條認為是符合要件第二個就算今天關了押了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6846.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6870.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
他也有15個月的期限第三個又按照妥數審判法的一個規定最後一個更重要的事情等到法院今天我們總長非常上訴之後我跟你講發回從審開始所謂的撤銷死刑判決之後人就是很可能放出來啊不是嗎有沒有可能你要推給司法院來秘書長請副秘書長請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6876.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6882.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
是不是啊?申請羈押法院一定會准嗎?對啊所以你還是同樣的問題部長能夠保證他申請羈押法院法官就會准嗎?不能嗎?當然啦那如果法官沒准人就怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6897.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6919.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
啊對法官有信心啊謝謝你啊法律要是寫這麼清楚如果按照這些所謂的寫死的要件法官再有信心都沒辦法啦奇怪你剛剛要我問副秘書長你又插進來你滿熱心回答的我告訴你副秘書長上次我已經講過了你也不能代表法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6920.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6931.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
法官怎麼去裁定要不要羈押不是你能決定不是法務部長能決定信心不能代表一切人就是有可能放出來那我再想請教我們部長回到您了我們我想請教您請問您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6937.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6966.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們現在一年大概平均這個有一百五十位殺人犯但一年平均有2.5位被三審判死刑這是過去我們很長一段時間的紀錄那我以2000年到2007年死刑定驗29位2008年到2015年死刑定驗23位但是你知道2016年蔡英文上台之後到她卸任總共多少位被三審判死 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6968.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6988.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
你知道嗎這八年期間省裡的七百多位殺人犯然後呢就是有兩位被三審判死我要跟部長說的是我們民進黨上台其實已經接近實質廢死了現在大法官又把門檻調得這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6990.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7017.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這才是人民憤怒啊你看到說今天司徒獎的女老師今天慘死跟市審判決改判免死最高法院直接告訴大家就是按照大法官憲判八號判決下來的意旨來做出所謂的免死確判然後人就確判了那接下來我們看到未來這37位死囚一樣會有這個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7019.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7024.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以沒有關係啦部長我要告訴您吼您的保證有沒有辦法保證人不放出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7025.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7051.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
只是當然你也沒辦法改變這些東西因為大法官的憲法解釋就出來了反正大法官就是太上皇阿他今天高興怎麼做就怎麼做不管八成民意反廢死阿那剛剛你們也委屈阿我先幫你多說一點話可是你們也沒辦法阻止今天將來所謂的發回更審所謂的撤銷死刑判決之後這些人會不會放出來根本不是你們能決定的以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7054.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7077.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
謝謝羅委員你這樣搞得我比我比被詢的官員還緊張對啊沒錯因為你專業嘛因為我國是成文法國家嘛所以羈押羈押的要件只有那幾種你要法官創設用用成文法以外就10101之以外的條文去押被告我真的是覺得沒有法官敢所以羅委員其實要提我也一直提在提出這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7078.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7083.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
接下來我們請林思瑤委員進行詢答我們謝謝趙偉先請部長麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7110.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7128.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
部長我想我延續一下剛才羅志強有關Face的議題我想就是我們最近有一部最精忠獎的這個迷你劇叫做八尺門的辯護人這部劇那個部長知道這部劇他的故事背景嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7130.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7153.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這裏面有寫就是在談認證你講知道知不知道就好了知道了我要提的是說這個男主角他有一句經典的一個台詞他提到說偏誤的精神鑑定會導出錯誤的事實也無法精準判斷教化的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7154.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7176.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這句話非常經典這句話就是印證說也就是很明確的指出說精神鑑定是否嚴格有是否有嚴格的科學基準他是非常一個重大對於我們死刑判決會產生非常重大的一個不一樣的一個判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7177.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7197.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我想大法官的憲法法庭所作成的113年度憲判制第8號這個判決裏面對死刑有三道關卡尤其對我們精神障礙的部分這三道關卡包含在我們偵審的時候還有在執行的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7199.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7223.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
還有這個在就是就是一個是在申審的時候一個是在執行的時候還有一個就是說如果他在整個判決的過程中如果有精神障礙或其他心智缺陷他有這樣的一個情況的時候在任何一個階段我們都沒有辦法判都沒有辦法把他判決死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7224.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7249.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以對於我們的精神障礙者如果他在訴訟的過程中或者在判決確定在最後的要執行的時候如果他說他有精神障礙都不會被判決死刑或不會被執行死刑所以精神鑑定會導致出錯誤的事實也無法精準來判斷教化的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7250.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7279.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這一點部長你同意嗎?這個劇的這個啟示男主角提到這句話的確這個八尺門的編文他提的這句話是令人省心思但是委員關心的就是憲判例子那個行為史跟審理史的那個對跟執行史還有執行史那我想這個在根據憲判例子他那個用詞是不太一樣那個行為史是要臨床 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7280.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7280.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7300.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7328.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7329.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7345.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對於說這句話可能就會產生說我們未來在精神鑑定的時候如果是三個階段行為時或者是在訴訟的過程中或者是在執行的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7345.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7367.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那被告或者受刑人他提出說我他現在就是完全不理解啊執行的一個效果是什麼啊死刑的效果是什麼啊或者他在偵審的時候提出說我根本就是我現在這個對整個審判程序啊偵查程序我也不理解或者行為是他那時候我就已經是毫無意識說我去殺了人 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7368.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7383.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那他做出這種抗辯那我們精神鑑定的時候當然剛才部長講說是請精神科的鑑定醫師來做鑑定吧那司法院實際上我們在訴訟審判的事務上是怎麼樣子來做相關的一個鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7384.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7385.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
司法部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7401.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7401.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7417.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7420.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
包括 action time, interrogation time, execution time. |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7420.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7438.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
包括行為時、審理時、執行時。 跟我們司法院法官比較相關的可能就是行為時的精神狀況還有審理中的狀況。 那執行的部分可能是法務部這一邊。 那但是我們都有跟司法精神醫學會那目前我們也建置了一些精神鑑定的一些的專家的資料庫。 那希望說將來如果真的案件需要的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7443.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7462.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那能夠由這一些人去執行,也得到一遍的賄賂其實我們一個最大的疑問就是說因為今天大法官設下這樣一個三道死刑的一個關卡就會造成未來我們不管是在偵查或者我們在這個審判或在執行的時候會有一個非常大的一個不確定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7463.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7481.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
就是說你如何來科學去鑑定說這個絕對鑑定出來的是這個與事實相符就被告的抗辯是成立的如果我現在假設一個例子假設我們在這個行為的時候是一個鑑定醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7483.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7493.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
在這個審判的時候是一個鑑定醫師然後在執行的時候又是不同的鑑定醫師三個階段都是不同的鑑定的醫師來做鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7495.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7521.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那結果這個醫師最後他鑑定說最後他在執行的時候說我現在已經喪失心神能力了我完全不懂得我現在執行的效果這個是什麼就是他去抗辯這樣子那我們如果最後醫師鑑定說他在最後一個階段他已經喪失心神能力那這個醫師推翻他之前的一個鑑定這時候到底要採信他的最後一次的鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7523.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7546.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
還是說我們要再做另外更精準的鑑定如何來實務上如何來操作跟委員報告執行階段的這個受刑能力受刑狀況能力的這個鑑定跟審理的這個鑑定恐怕不同層次那跟委員報告我們之前確實有跟司法精神醫學會他們去做過一些溝通聯繫他們也就針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7547.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7565.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
委員所垂涎的這些問題以他們那個精神精神精神醫學專業的立場他們有去嘗試去做區分所以這部分這部分委員擔心的這些問題我們相信我們會跟那個精神醫學界他們現在已經在做已經在做研議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7567.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7594.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以我是我個人的一個感觸就是說大法官對於這個死刑的一個判決對於有沒有金帳這一個部分他去做一個關卡的一個限定實際上真的造成不管是我們檢察官或者我們的法官在這個判決的時候呢真的很大的困擾如果假設我再假設如果是不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定那到底要採信誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7596.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7623.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
要採信誰的每一個階段不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定所以被告是很狡猾的我要告訴你們這一點如何的科學的來去判斷說這個人是不是真的精神障礙這一點還是請不管是法務部或者是我們司法院要研擬出更好的一個對策跟你剛才講的什麼精神醫學會是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7626.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7646.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
司法精神醫學會做更細密的一個討論尤其這個憲判制第三號出來之後我覺得真的如果你沒有做詳細的討論未來所有的被告都會做這方面的一個抗辯好這對被害的家屬非常的不公平好那接下來我們是不是請那個部長你們都請回請那個總長一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7656.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7680.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好總長我長話短說時間也差不多我想剛才黃國昌委員對針對台眼綠能的這個案子他也這個垂詢很多其實我們比較納悶的因為今天最新的一個報告就是說昨天檢方生壓然後今天凌晨這些一干被告全部生壓被駁回那被駁回那我們檢察官是不是會提抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7682.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7701.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
到那了一定會提抗告嘛就是說我們那他們這個案子黃國昌講說他在去年年初就已經去揭發這個弊案當然檢察官一直查查查查到今年大概隔了一年七個月到今年十月就是前幾天十月二十二日 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7701.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7719.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
才發動搜索才發動偵查然後把相關的人士接我們不管是DRG什麼都一連串的大動作來聚約談相關的人士然後最後昨天就申請生涯但是卻被駁回駁回的原因總長知道是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7720.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7745.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
法院認為什麼?他具體的原因為什麼不會?報告委員因為今天早上來我還來不及仔細看但是我知道他們那個有就陸東委員所垂詢的我們那個檢察官會提出抗告但內容我還沒有今天早上一直在這裡面還來不及看是我剛才看一下罪證不足所以這很諷刺啊一個案子調查那麼久最後罪證不足要深壓罪證不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7746.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7765.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我們還是要去啊這個跟報導因為地院法官的看法哈有時候每個地方法院又都不太一樣哈啊另外這個二省的法官的看法哈也有他們的見解哈所以接下來所以所以那個案情是總長我最後要講了是就我希望這個案子因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7766.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7790.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
如果從整個報導來看的話或者相關的訊息來看的話這種我們國營事業的子公司竟然這麼大的一個弊案有說知情人士講說水很深所以我希望我們這個家官能夠就這個案子不管涉及的層級多高水多深一定徹查到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7791.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7808.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
總長有沒有信心這個國營事業的財產就是全民的財產對也是我們檢察官的財產全國人民的當然當然我們檢察官一定會陸力以赴是所以我希望這個案子一定要查個水螺石珠不能有任何的護短是當然好以上謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝那我們下一位請吳世耀委員進行詢答好謝主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7821.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7822.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
麻煩部長部長早辛苦了委屈了在議事殿堂往往有很多立委都不問政事只會在那邊東扯西扯有一位委員呢這個名字有個強字但事實上問政一點都不強 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7845.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7870.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
今天的主題吳思瑤準備了19頁20頁的PPT我每一次的質詢至少都是15頁以上的PPT我的團隊認真準備充分的研議相關的議案那也有一種人呢一點都不強那剛剛花了質詢時間8加2他花了多數的時間在提及吳思瑤這種行為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7874.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7901.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
其實我也很習慣啦過去這位不強的委員那時候他是不強的議員他要監督的對象應當是台北市長可是呢他都是在他的臉書一天到晚呢都在討論吳思瑤我也覺得好奇怪我也覺得好困擾我們跟騷法通過了嘛希望立法委員自己要注意立法院新立的法那也有一種不強的人就是這樣常常自己的言論禁不起檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7902.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7924.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
然後當別人說出他不敢面對的真相的時候呢他只能夠扯別人是在造謠正因為戳中了他的痛點正因為講到了他的痛處他只會跳腳只會跳針只會反應過度這種一點都不強的人他的行為跟中國一樣欸跟中國一樣欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7929.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7954.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
只會用這種共機擾台用這種反應過度當台灣在捍衛我們的主權堅稱台灣的立場打到了中國的痛處中國只會用這種跳槍演習或者是各種的軍事恐嚇言語文攻武嚇都來了所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7956.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7962.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
沒關係我也很習慣了面對這種政治癡漢的糾纏那回到我今天的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7965.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7987.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
擊壓解送輪為秀場我認為是反人權不管嫌疑人是誰下一頁我常常很不解為什麼土城看守所每次在擊壓解送的那個現場他是公開的還是半公開的都會被媒體輕易地拍到 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7988.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8011.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
議員．議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8012.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8033.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這是台北地檢署署的那個前面那個那個空間嗎對不對球車的出入口是他是一個出入口但是我認為畢竟都只是嫌疑人吶都被清楚的可以被媒體這樣獵巫拍攝我認為對於一個嫌疑人的人權是有很大的傷害下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8036.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8056.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
擊壓被告雖然有犯罪的嫌疑但是人受無罪推定原則的保障嘛對不對法有明定嘛不管是刑事訴訟法101條154條89條都告訴我們確實因為安全考量需要佩戴借據但是嫌疑人的人格尊嚴都要受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8057.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8067.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
下一頁台灣有台灣的法律國際有國際的公約公民與政治權利公約第七第十條都講到對於這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8070.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8095.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所有的自由被剝奪之人他仍應當受到人道及尊重其天賦人格尊嚴之處欲更何況他還沒有被判刑確定他只是嫌疑人下一頁所以我真的請你們去正式去研議我大概也側面瞭解了一下那個看守所圖城看守所那個地方他似乎是一個因為那個地形地貌 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8096.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8124.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好像是媒體是那個沒有毒死的然後讓媒體可以很輕易的從一個比較高的地方然後因為地檢署的建築物的規格不一樣空間有限所以在壓積壓解送的這個半公開場合或是非他應該是非公開場合都讓媒體可以輕易的去拍攝到您認為這樣子的可能涉及違反人權我真的覺得是違反人權我們要怎麼樣來補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8128.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8143.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
謝謝委員關心這個問題那這部分我會請那個臺高檢署來督導那個各地檢署就這部分來做如果有這種情況就適當的一個遮蔽因為這個不是公開的場合是他是非公開場合嘛對 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8144.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8145.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我同樣來關心收容數據裡頭的抄收問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8169.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8169.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
議員鍾佳濱 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8188.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8188.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
如果以法務部我們要推動人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8215.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8224.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
預政改革一人一床的政策上路多年也有五成以上沒有達到一人一床的政策進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8226.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8253.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
當中呢看守所確實又惡化於高於監獄的收容狀況我知道這很困難空間但是該做我們就要逐步去做我希望預算不要被擋不要持續被擋讓你們真的現在投入全台灣五處的這個積壓收容情形的空間改建能夠來持續加碼的上路下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8254.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8271.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以我剛剛說的您要去檢視剛剛說的這個看守所的收容狀況比這個監獄更糟的這個現實也包括回到法規我上次提出喔法務部針對各監獄的收容的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8272.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8274.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
而台灣的法規也只針對監獄受刑人的空間有基準的規範對於看守所更沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8295.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8313.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所以我順著這整個邏輯如果我們都無罪推定我們都在那個辦案的過程當中必須去收容必須去拘禁必須去拘提這些被害嫌疑人我們要努力的還是要兼顧他的人權部長您可不可以綜合回應我這些的提議呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8314.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8329.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
謝謝委員關心我想這個抄收的問題我們現在在努力那因為我們現在爭取預算來做一個興建我希望來年立委不能增加預算之提議我也不會提案修法直接要你加碼加倍但是你們自己來編預算我們全力支持謝謝委員那這部分那個張化看搜索跟巴德外監那個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8338.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8340.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我們已經啟動了五個矯正機關的擴建或新建的辦理情形。 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8358.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8378.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那看守所的抄收比監獄嚴重但是卻優先推動監獄你五處當中都是監獄對不起喔對對對監獄當然要改啦改了四處啦看守所只改一處然後台北監獄宜蘭監獄雖然擴建完成還是抄收然後沒有因地制宜區域的分布沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8380.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8403.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
沒錢就沒有辦法進行對不對所以我們你們自己提預算好嗎好是謝謝委員自己提計畫那個委員來支持我一定支持好來但我不會自己提法案來沒收行政編列預算的權利這個基本的憲政權利分立的原則立委一定要堅守來下一頁再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8404.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8428.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
今天針對刑事訴訟法228條之一我想您在前面很多委員的槌尋您都回答了來下一頁我針對通訊自由不限的這個部分我還是要提出我的呼籲七七以為不可因為它會影響了妨礙了犯罪的偵查如果在詢問跟這個詢問過程就還放任這個嫌疑人對外自由聯繫通話 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8431.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8432.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
下一頁我提這個案例齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8446.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8462.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
過去曾經有某黨涉入共諜案王炳忠曾經有一個他已經被壓了他可以在看守所裡面直播你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8463.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8490.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以呢這就是一種非常離譜的狀況用這個案例來告訴我們通訊自由在這個階段當然是應當被限制嘛所以我要用這個案例您對這個案例有印象深刻嗎部長這個有印象這個有這個媒體有報導所以當初那這個有什麼只能自指那這個你們怎麼會有人對於執法人員被曝光也是一個對執法人員的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8492 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8517.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個的確是會有這個尤其是影響那個整個偵查的一個進行所以這個修法我愛南同意我也希望未來在討論的時候我們大家能夠基於理性專業然後辦案實務的需要也盡量去避免對於個案劍指個案的這種修法的思維好我們持續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8518.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8539.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
再次講您辛苦了委屈了針對那些問政一點都不強的委員我們就堅守講我們的政策立場沒有什麼毫無所懼謝謝那下一位我們請紅夢凱委員進行詢答那在紅夢凱委員詢答那個結束後我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8551.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8580.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好感謝主席喔那現在感覺好像立法院有作對廝殺的感覺齁不過吳委員剛剛你沒有提案說明但是你有連署禁法補償也要提高六萬元啦所以你自己沒有提案但是你有連署啦齁好來召委謝謝我們麻煩請我們我專業啊沒有問題感謝謝謝來那個我請我們司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8583.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8604.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好不過剛剛吳委員我想我們還是專業問政其實吳委員剛剛提到一個重點也是我今天準備的一個資料本席想要請教我先請教一下部長部長有沒有看到我們最近新聞昨天我們也在討論說偵查不公開你當然這邊都講是說沒有沒有但是最近新聞我覺得是亂象很頻傳有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8607.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8635.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
嫌疑人在被收押進鑑但是他出庭他光出庭的時候出來然後剛那個畫面媒體就去拍那我想是說第一出庭的時間媒體怎麼會知道媒體不會24小時都在那個高處來鎖定我想那麼長的時間媒體不太可能24小時在那邊那可能就變成是衍生一個他也許有人通風報信他今天會出庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8636.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8645.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
可能上午可能下午所以媒體他知道說他先去那邊的第二拍到那個畫面之後啊開始政論節目大作文章了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8646.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8675.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
有沒有戴眼鏡他今天沒戴眼鏡可能他要傳達什麼樣的訊息他今天穿黃色的衣服要傳達什麼樣的訊息他今天走路甚至媒體寫什麼緊閉雙唇雙唇啊眼神非常凝重我想請教這樣子變成是說讓媒體可以捕風捉影社會輿論帶風向某程度上對於嫌疑人是不是也是有一種不公平的對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8675.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8680.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
部長你怎麼看?這部分我可不可以做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8683.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8686.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
但是記者24小時不回家跟說他知道哪一個人出庭會有直接關係嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8708.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8711.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我現在提的是說過去到現在我們都一直有看到那樣的畫面 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8734.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8737.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
bicyn Mung 程度上這是不是應該有檢討的空間或改進的空間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8764.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8785.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
追根究柢授本清源改進的空間我覺得其實也沒有必要說有這樣的話如果說今天那個角度真的拍不到那我想媒體朋友也比較輕鬆啦他也不用在那邊守24小時您認為呢這部分我會請台高檢來請北檢督導北檢來做不只北檢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8786.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8787.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
但是從以前到現在這個影像流出多少了? |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8802.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8802.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
部長﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8830.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8851.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
請做一個檢討好不好因為我覺得今天剛好有藍綠委員都有提到這樣的一個問題而我們避免讓偵查中的案件好像社會輿論然後結果連一個什麼一個畫面就可以講一整晚說實在這哪像我講這看圖說故事也太嚴重了吧來部長我再請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8852.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8877.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
昨天這個直轄市高雄市啊也有議員問說這樣不贊成死刑啊高雄市所有的分局長全部都舉手贊成你有看到這新聞嗎我沒有看過這個新聞沒有看到這個新聞所以昨天我已經跟你講了就是高雄市議會這邊來做這個質詢的時候議員問說是不是贊成死刑高雄市的分局長全部都舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8879.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8902.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我 我想我也不用這邊詢問啦但我相信啦今天要說在場所有的執法人員我們司法法制委員會有人認為有人要贊成廢死有人要願意舉手嗎看起來沒有所以看起來死刑是我們高度的一個共識啊大家也認為是說我們法治社會應該要有死刑的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8903.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8928.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
一個保護啊剛剛有委員有提到是說現在有37個這個死刑犯提非常上訴符合提非常上訴的一個資格那現在有多少人符合以及現在提的狀況怎麼樣這個現在由最高檢察署在審核中那我不清楚這部分的剛剛我看有委員在詢問的時候也沒有辦法回答這是機密嗎這個在審核這部分齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8933.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8951.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這是機密嗎?已經三審定驗的37名死刑犯其中有長達已經定驗了20幾年了我印象沒有錯的話最久的應該是24年1999年8月的時候三審定驗的死刑犯到目前都還沒有執行死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8952.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8965.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那這37名死刑犯有提非常上訴嗎?現在還沒有提 有多少人有符合資格?這部分我沒辦法跟委員報告 那誰有辦法?這是機密嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8965.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8973.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那個總長有在因為我們是 總長 你閉目養神喔 我揣一條好像不關你的事捏 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8979.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9000.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
委員你講話我每句話都非常認真在聽是用閉目養神的方式是不是來請回答這個我們在10月24號我們要給羅委員一個文他問了問槌尋的事項跟委員完全一樣我們是依照憲判制第8判決的意旨我們現在調卷在逐項研議中 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9002.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9028.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我問說你有沒有聽清楚我的問題我問是說有多少37名死刑犯有多少人符合提出非常上訴的資格我們在研議中那有沒有符合資格符合了我們自然就會提起非常上訴那什麼時候會研議出來什麼時候會研議出來我們等到有結果的時候我們就會跟跟依法提起來依法提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9032.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9035.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
總統,你完全沒有針對本席的問題回答問題。總統,本席的問題有那麼難以理解嗎?還是你現在是認為這是官僚?部長你可以接受這樣的一個答詢嗎?的一個態度嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9058.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9082.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
本來在審這個是很慎重的本來就要一種很嚴密的很審慎的一個態度去依照憲判意旨以及卷證的因為卷證的這些的資料再去審酌可不可以提起非常上述的一個空間嗎這個個案的問題這個現在我想總長我想部長總長看起來你們都不敢面對國人的質疑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9083.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9104.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
本席會在這邊提出來這個問題並不是無敵方﹖我想用最謹慎的、最慎重的態度去處理它每一次你們都是用最謹慎的態度、最嚴謹的態度在協助死刑犯這一點是國人到現在最沒有辦法接受的地方就每一次我在這﹖我已經很好生好氣囉說實在的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9106.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9131.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我上一次在這邊質詢您的時候我講的就是劉宗鑫所長的案件我就講說劉宗鑫所長他被一個獨家犯這樣子給撞離開劉宗鑫所長就這樣子天人永隔你有沒有看到前兩天我去參加他的告別式的時候他的女兒怎麼講他女兒講是說可不可以請老天爺讓他爸爸回來結果你們現在在講的是說你們現在在講的是說聽好你們現在在講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9137.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9150.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們要很謹慎的很慎重的對待這些死刑犯。這個本來就是要審的,要用慎重的態度去審。慎重嚴謹是要保護好人並不是要保護壞人。這種態度沒有辦法嗎?我們就是對壞人要不懷疑要一個追究嘛。所以我們態度是跟委員是一樣的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9162.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9175.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
副部長我沒有辦法現在我沒有辦法跟你以一樣的態度來因為抱歉啊讓那個副秘書長在那邊站比較久我最後一分鐘好不好抱歉我的時間也到了最後一分鐘請教副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9176.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9204.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
副組長我只要請教一下啦因為現在今天下午我們草野會有在座協商的一個空間那針對就是現在所謂這個總預算的一個部分我想之前可能有委員也都有質詢過但我想還是要釐清一下說憲法法庭的一個態度或是說這個條件就是當我們三讀通過的法令行政部門有認為自愛難行之處第一他要做什麼樣的一個處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9206.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9233.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
公委員報告那因為看媒體講說說可能會有憲法上面的問題但是公委員報告因為我們司法行政單位不能去救憲法法庭的部分去將來假設我先請教就是說我們憲法徵修條文裡面有提到嘛就是說當行政院對於立法院決議的法律案預算案或是條約案認為有摯愛難行之處他馬上就提起釋憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9235.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9246.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那個跟委員報告因為那個司法院的秘書處不能就憲法法庭的部分去不是我現在請教你憲法申修條文條文內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9250.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9272.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
憲法徵修條文第三條行政院對於立法院決議的法律案預算案條約案如認為有至愛難行之處得在該決議案送達行政院十日內以請立法院復議所以說行政部門認為法律案預算案條約案有認為至愛難行之處要以請立法院復議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9273.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9280.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那請教我們剛剛現在社會大眾一直在關心的這個禁法補償條例有行政部門有附議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9282.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9303.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
沒有總統公告了接下來再來是第47條是刑法訴訟法47條如果說國家最高機關就法的規範認為有抵觸憲法者得申請憲法法庭作為宣告違憲制判決這是七條的要點對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9306.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9329.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
但在48條裡面有特別提到前項法規如果抵觸憲法一役各機關於職權範圍內得自行排除者不得申請換言之現在很多的委員或甚至說這個行政院院長在講是說這個是違憲違憲是說我們通過法令案把民定這個是違憲您覺得說有違憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9332.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9337.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
但是48條講很清楚嘛各機關的全責範圍內自行排除是啊那我想請教我們現在的法律就副秘書長我們現在的法律有沒有哪一些法律裡面明文規定有必須要多少的一個費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9358.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9360.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以說其實我們六法全書裡面或說各相關的一個法令其實也都有相關的一個費用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9377.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9379.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具〈刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案》案 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9395.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9413.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
行法訴訟法裡面也明擺的規定如果說機關的一個爭議要提起釋憲但是他跟其他的這個法條其實根本沒有構成要件的時候你認為可以接受符合這樣釋憲的要件嗎?委員報告是不是符合要件我們不是憲法法庭不能不能去就這邊去智慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9415.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9433.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我真的期待啊司法法制委員會之前在這邊都是有風骨的法律人能夠來備詢講實話你可以多說你可以少說但是不說謊不造假但是我現在非常的遺憾部長總長還是副秘書長真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9437.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9456.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
質證是一時任何人都會質證但是你們法律人是永久的留一些名聲給大家談聽謝謝好謝謝那我們就依照先前的宣告休息五分鐘那那個部長因為另有要事所以部長要先離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9855.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9868.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 謝謝各位時間到我們現在開始開會那下一位我們請楊瓊英委員進行詢答謝謝主席楊瓊英發言首先請檢察總長麻煩總長好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9883.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9897.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
總統好 我想最近民眾黨主席的這個案子到目前為止我們一再民眾在這近兩個月當中一再有偵查內容被特定媒體來曝光 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9899.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9922.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
外界也很多的質疑也就是有黨檢媒一體而且是刻意的來帶風向那在學者的認為在整個民主政治的機制當中所有的案件在未確定判決前都是採取無罪推論是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9926.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9949.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
是如此,你那個麥克風要按下去是無罪貼論但是現在外界這樣的一個質疑這樣的手段不僅是讓訴訟當事人不公平也讓偵查不公開的原則變成是一個公開的笑話當然今天很多人都在關心這個議案我們希望我們還是依法來辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9951.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9960.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
但是剛剛呢總長你有談到一句喔本席覺得非常的訝異喔你說有的媒體他是因為24小時在那邊剛剛誰說的哪一位說的法務部長說的剛剛誰說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9972.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9986.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以如果是這樣論點我要請教檢察總長也就是我們不管是怎麼樣就是偵查不公開如果沒有公開他就沒有辦法去得到資訊是不是如此是不是以這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9990.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10017.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
抱歉委員您說這個不公開就沒辦法得到資訊是不是這個意思偵查不公開嘛剛剛有法務部還誰說是他有談論到因為記者24小時來跟要解釋這個原理那所以本席說不管誰怎麼跟如果我們的資訊沒有公開那沒有人有辦法知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10021.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10039.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
跟委員報告這個偵查不公開是檢察官的天職也是檢察官的倫理更是檢察官的職業道德這我百分之百認同所以在每一件案件偵辦的時候我就再三的跟我們裁判的檢察官講一定要落實偵查不公開的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10040.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10050.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那至於剛剛委員崛巡所指教的那個部分那因為剛剛並不是我所答覆的所以我不瞭解當時答覆他的背景是怎麼樣的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10051.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10075.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好那如果照你這麼說我們還是維持偵查不公開而且你再次的宣誓嘛那要請教目前這一兩個月當中沸沸騰騰甚至引申到這個帶風向球所以在這樣情況之下總長你看到這樣的一個社會面向你認為還有哪些可以去做精進的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10076.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10099.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個委員報告我們司法院今天副部長也在座有頒布了一個偵查不公開作業辦法在這個法規命令裡面內容規定的非常嚴格他不僅偵查的內容不能公開偵查的程序也不能公開但是圖法不足以自行規定那麼嚴格可是在實務上的配套措施其實這個並不 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10102.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10102.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
閱讀者﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10125.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10149.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
但是這個畢竟案件是檢察官在偵辦的說我們有義務有義務讓案情要保持這個縝密保持當事人的尊嚴這樣也能夠符合行政司法規定偵查不公開的意義如果做不到這點的話那實在是我們都要檢討所以那這個如果要做的話當然整個制度都要來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10151.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10175.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
但是如果說有人刻意的泄露監察的內容的話 那真的是非常不足取對 所以不足取 那麼因為社會大眾有這樣的疑慮 所以我們也希望也要求總長你要將相關你認為在整個執行過程當中有不妥適的地方 我們應該要好好的去研議 是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10180.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10199.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我再講一遍,這個圖法不足以自省,如果說民眾也喜歡這樣的八卦或很血腥的這種場面的話,那這個有供就有需啦,有供有需要自然就會提供一些真真假假的新聞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10202.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10204.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我們整個文化也都要檢討了 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10230.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10241.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們下一位請廖偉祥進行詢答廖偉祥政政前我們下一位請翁曉林委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10251.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10268.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
主席現在有請保護部黃次長還有司法院的黃副秘書長今天本席所談的還是想說是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10270.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10294.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
大法官作成死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決裏面來談這個事情那麼我們知道大法官在這次的憲法判決裏面其實設下了一些門檻那外界當然有批評大法官是不是造法他設下了一些門檻那麼看起來就是現在有待法務部跟司法院可能都分別必須要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10295.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10306.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那麼再次在這次的大法官所做成的憲法判決當中其實有些地方還是不是很清楚因為他在憲法判決裡面他是針對申請人所提出來的四項死刑的條文那麼做出解釋那麼看起來如果說從我們現在講的這個憲法判決他的主要有效的拘束範圍應該就是指這四條殺人罪那麼要求要有這個要有這個健行強制辯護 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10325.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10329.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
的程序不管是在第三審還是在偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10331.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10331.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
閱讀委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10363.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10378.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
行事訴訟法應該是請秘書長這邊先回答那委員好那當然這一次的這個那個宪判制他的標的是這四條沒有錯那其他的部分其他的部分沒有沒有沒有在這個標的範圍內那將來如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10381.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10402.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
他們其他的相關有死刑的不在但是不是在這一個事實範圍內要去參照去法務部講因為他是法務部主政法務部參照修法的話那司法院是尊重的因為刑事訴訟法是屬於司法院要修法所以呢就是未來有關於強制辯護的程序的話是會一體適用在所有的死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10403.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10419.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以你們現在內部還沒有進行討論嗎?我們正在研議中但是今天假設會有宣告死刑的案例第一個我想刑事訴訟不是只有這四條我們應該會去參照去做相關的這些規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10426.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10428.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以簡單來說你們會做通盤的考慮對不對通盤的考量是不是全部都要一併修法那法務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10440.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10461.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
根據宣判8號的判決意旨跟本部有關係主管法規包括刑法跟監獄刑法做修正那刑法的部分包括19條第二項的不得判處死刑的部分那我們要修在我們的刑法裡面另外有關於訴訟中的這個辯護能力如果有欠缺與不得判處死刑這部分刑法裡面要做相應的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10462.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10487.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
另外還有先判之八號提到有關於假釋特殊的假釋要不要提高假釋門檻的部分我們的假釋規定也要做相應的處理。這樣有關授刑能力就涉及到我們的監獄刑警法以及刑事訴訟法的修正。好簡單來說你們也是會通盤的考量嗎?不會說是只針對因為這涉及到這四條的死刑罪而被而判刑的這個部分那會 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10490.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10507.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
就整體的所有涉及到死刑的條文都一併的我們一併來處理那現在的情況就是說因為大法官的憲法判決已經做成了那麼在這段時間你們的態度是怎麼樣是立刻就要依照大法官的判決意旨來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10511.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10532.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
還是你們現在司法院跟法務部這裡的做法是什麼因為我們知道其實有一些案因為這個這個相關的訴訟案件都在進行中然後呢整個的偵查程序也都是一直在進行中那麼所以就原來已經在偵查程序的這些案子你們要怎麼樣補正相關的這個程序做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10534.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10554.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
在審判中的話因為宪判有幾個包含說一致決強制編戶這些都是立即生效的那當然在訴訟進行中的案子我們大概會到宪判一直來做有一些他有給期限的要研議的那一部分那一部分要看那個主文的很多項我們會依照宪判一直來去傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10554.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10577.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
但是對於像是這個偵查現在我相信一定這個實務上有非常多的案子都是在這個偵查程序當中那麼所以現在法務部已經要求所有的偵查階段的檢警調都要依照大法官的意旨要實施強制辯護嗎?要引進公社律師或是找法復的律師? |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10578.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10598.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我跟委員報告齁那我們憲判制大法官他的判決是指就是說偵查中的強制辯護他是原則上希望我們兩年內修法那如果兩年內沒有完成修法的話憲判制他已經有一個具體的指示要該怎麼做那而且他具名指名就是說現在已經存在的程序是不受影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10598.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10627.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以就是兩年之後才會正式的開始實施這樣子的一個這樣子的要求對但是我還是要講就是在不斷的提醒因為大法官這次做的憲判是事實上已經造成整個偵查當中的可能會發生強制辯護有致案難行的地方就是這個對於警察還有這個檢體調的人員他們在偵訊過程當中可能當時的這個犯罪事實還不是很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10627.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10627.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
﹝廣告﹞ |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10651.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10677.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個在偵查程序當中現在要有這個法復的律師進來未來會有法復的律師進來可是法律輔助的基金會的經費的部分我看到在這次的114年的預算書當中當然司法院可能當時還來不及應變所以沒有提出相關的預算修正案但是事實上這也很重要對不對這應該也要趕快準備還有就是說我本期有 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10677.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10697.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
去整理目前的法服的狀況事實上每一年大概有六萬多件的要申請法服的核准的予以輔助的案件那在檢警偵訊當中在檢警的這個偵查程序當中有法服的律師陪同的大概四千多件若說一般案件裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10697.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10720.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
的有重刑的這個案件的話大概有六千多大概有六千多件嘛我記得所以呢對於整個的法服的經費來講它會大幅的提升那就這個部分來說這的確會增加國家的負擔司法預算經費的負擔那你們未來有沒有什麼比較好的一個應變的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10721.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10740.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
跟委員報告那法服今年的預算大概15億但是還沒有當時還沒有這一個憲判當然憲判出來之後我們會跟法務會法務基金會他們目前正在盤點是不是他們能夠在預算範圍內能夠負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10743.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10743.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
議員鍾佳濱 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10760.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10784.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
司法實務界一定會針對大法官所作成的這號限判制感到非常的困擾因為會出現非常多實務上難以處理的問題那這部分的話希望法務部還有司法院你們都要盡快的提出相關的修法那麼或者是說要積極的召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10785.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10806.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
公聽會這個研討會然後來處理這個問題否則的話我想我們即將要進入了就是大強制辯護時代到底十五屆準備好了嗎尤其是在基層的第一線人員檢警掉他們對於這方面的認知是否瞭解而且之後如果說有引用法條錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10807.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10815.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後之後再來回來有機會再重新去補正那個沒有強制辯護的程序他會是不是會影響到證據力 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10817.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10843.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟我們報告,事實上我們現在偵查中的辯護我們在刑訴法有關於這個身心障礙或是原住民現實上事實上就已經是強制辯護了但現辦判決之後未來會增加幾個重罪所以就我們檢警來講其實他已經在偵查中的辯護他已經印製多年了只是未來量的部分會增加只是說做法上是沒有什麼不一樣而且還有涉及到一個問題就是如果說當事人犯罪嫌疑人他不願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10845.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10868.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
請律師呢?他不願意就是接受強制辯護對那我們在31條的部分他有做個特別規定他如果不願意當然就沒有強制辯護了他如果不願意可是問題現在大法官的要求是不管看起來是不管犯罪嫌疑人他沒有講要求他跟審判中的強制辯護他做了一個不同強度的處理他如果他不需要或者等待超過四小時我們就不必強制辯護了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10870.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10885.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好那我想就是如果說法務部跟司法院這邊你們過去都已經有了些實務的經驗那麼就應該要更積極迅速的提出修法不要讓外界對這部分的話不是很清楚未來我們的實務的走法是如何好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10888.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10888.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
現在有請吳宗憲委員質詢 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10919.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10921.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
好謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10931.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10951.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
委員好我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他說對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會嘛這個上面這邊還有照片是 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10953.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10970.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想說這個應該是非常認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10973.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10999.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11000.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11019.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11020.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11040.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
﹏其實偵查不公開這個執行上面會越來越困難﹏例如說激壓律師可以越卷這也是一個卸出一些偵查秘密的管道這個我都經歷過我可以認同但是現在有一個問題就是說因為最近這幾年這個偵查期間的資料外洩的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11041.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11055.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11057.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11072.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
閱论資料曝光,我們就知道這些東西是不是真的。你再回過頭去看之前有幾個案子已經起訴的結果他們洩出來,譬如說林志廟的案子搜索現場的照片,再搜索完就流出來。像這個我覺得就是這都是不應該啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11074.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11086.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11087.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11113.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11115.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11125.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11129.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11148.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11152.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11178.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件他的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11182.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11203.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11205.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11223.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11224.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11224.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
總統,我認為…… |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11247.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11276.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
沒關係 那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的阿其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在指希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無且只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11277.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11291.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
還是要麻煩你能夠跟檢察官想拜託他們要嚴守偵查不公開那檢察官在每一個案子他就是偵查主體的總指揮官他也要去要求他所帶的一些司法警察以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11292.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11319.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後再麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11320.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11324.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這個我們檢察官要盡量在我們自己能夠掌控的部分掌控 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11325.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11350.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我知道很多資料現在洩出來的一定有很多是以訛傳訛的假東西嘛這我們都能夠理解但是我今天我就講我沒有下定論最近鬧的那麼轟烈的事我沒有下過定論我只說起訴以後如果我們從確診資料來看這些記者報出來的資料如果確實是確診資料裡面有而且本來就不應該流出去的那又是另外一個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11351.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11379.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那我現在剛剛我有說到了我是就之前有幾件已經起訴的案子或者是為什麼楊文科被搜索完隔沒有多久他連家裡扣到多少錢記者都會知道所以這個就不應該嘛因為楊文科本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11381.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11408.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
總統你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟總統說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11411.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11429.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11432.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11445.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
大家和就緒司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緒 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11449.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11470.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11471.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11493.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11494.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11509.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的書面他說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就計的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11509.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11529.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
不過因為我看過你們的報告你們是認為說可以用國賠或個資這些去救濟對不對但是在我立場因為當初我推的版本其實有包括到司法警察的部分也可以救濟但是後來當然通過的版本是依照司法院的版本就是沒有但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11531.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11553.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11554.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11565.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
會導致警察不敢做事啊就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11566.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11591.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
不能裝GPS的時代那警察就是去找徵信社去偷裝嘛東西食物都這樣做啊我們現在面對現實遇到這個狀況所以是不是說把它變成是一個司法警察如果做這些事情在我們刑事訴訟法上面也可以救濟那至少警察他做事情比較不怕否則現在警察他到底該做不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11592.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11611.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
他又要再想啦因為我做了被告像那個海巡那個最早海巡裝GPS那個被判刑的那個人一樣嘛他就我這麼努力查緝毒品就到最後我被判刑了所以我還是一個我是提我的想法啦就當初我自己的版本的時候是這樣那沒關係這個我們將來也可以再慢慢的再討論這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11613.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11613.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
最後請教延續剛剛幾個委員提到的問題總長還有黃次長請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11627.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11655.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦齁那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于如那三位被告齁那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于如這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告齁那結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11656.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11680.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11684.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11687.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
當然我們不是專家我要說明一下我是認為說我個人認為這個的確這個這樣是不夠的我跟總統報告一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11693.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11722.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我自己測驗每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11723.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11726.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．一）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．一）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11752.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11775.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我做出來我也可以我說真的啦我大學的時候做資歷測驗是146啦那我現在要把自己做成46我覺得也很簡單我都自己算一算拿幾題我全部答錯就好所以這個地方我真的是要麻煩總長可能要注意一下因為非常上述是您要提我非常尊重你我以前在當檢察官我就非常尊重你那也希望說總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11777.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11788.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11790.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11810.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們適不適用無罪推定 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11811.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11831.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11834.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11854.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政102 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11856.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11871.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
而一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11873.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11900.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11901.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11928.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11930.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11949.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
因為依據刑法施行法七之一七之二這些人他的假釋門檻是適用行為時也就是說他們是適用舊法十五年的假釋規定所以這些人只要一回歸到普通法院他可能很快就可以申請假釋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11950.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11965.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11965.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11984.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11986.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11986.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
閱讀委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12017.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12043.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12045.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12072.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我覺得這是解決不了的問題那這問題跟三位完全無關這是大法官那偉大大法官捅出來的婁子那在那邊跟各位報告再麻煩各位就以蒼生為念要替我們社會上這些百姓想想今天這些人如果回到社會跟我住同一個社區我說真的我不敢讓小孩子晚上出門不敢讓小孩子獨自出門好再麻煩各位謝謝各位委員的正義感我們會審慎處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12085.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12103.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們先做會議時間的處理上會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答完畢為止接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言王鴻薇 王鴻薇 高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅接下來我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12116.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12140.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好謝謝主席我們有請司法院黃副秘書長麻煩副秘書長我順道請那個我們法務部的黃次長跟我們廉政署的馮署長好馮署長那我等一下如果有時間最後面我會請教我們警政署的張署長那後面再請好了好謝謝主席那 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12143.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12167.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
各位首長午安了那我們今天就這個刑事訴訟法當中部分條文的這個修正進行併案的討論特別是對於我們上會期所通過的特殊強制處分的這個章節上有討論的空間那這邊我想就這個刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十的內容來就交與我們副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12168.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12188.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
從司法院的書面報告當中我們對於本條在立場上似乎是有傾向維持現行版本但是在提案當中也提到現行法只允許對法官檢察官所為的科技偵查來做救濟未能充分的保障受處分者 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12188.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12209.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
可能有違背這個有權力及救濟的這個法理原則那這邊我想請教複密也請您這個說明認為我們現行制度的在實務情形上不需再增訂的理由以及我們司法院對於這個司法資源分配上所產生的疑慮為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12211.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12235.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
跟委員報告齁 那我們順便報告也有寫說其實各個國家齁 針對這種短期像那個如果說是比較長期的齁 像它超過24小時或者是超過兩天 它本身就要事先要有令狀齁 或者是要緊急的情況 所以現在的發生認為認為要補的是這種這個時間比較短的 然後也沒有延續性都比較短 比較輕微的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12236.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12253.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
） |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12253.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12253.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
閱议委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12283.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12283.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
（刑事訴訟法的量能（ |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12303.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12306.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
才救濟這一部分的現實司法上面的承擔我們還必須去做斟酌所以我們才會請說那個委員們能夠斟酌也不是說沒有救濟將來他的證據有問題他還是會被排除他有被這些實施違法實施的這個公務人員警察他有責任他還是要去復起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12324.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12344.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那時候也會去判斷是不是要在前階段這是一個政策政策決定那當然當然也請委員們大院能夠斟酌說我們司法的負擔政策決定也非常清楚那在第五項當中所授權的有關這個事項的辦法是由我們司法院這個會同行政院定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12345.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12360.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那我想再就叫我們複密相關的這個執法在過去一段時間研擬的情形為何那目前這個草案是否已經擬定完成那預計多久之後會嫌這個行政院的這個部分來做公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12361.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12389.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
跟委員報告關於這一個一百一五三之十第五項的這個執法我們已經有三次的這個諮詢會那麼草案剛才有跟另外一位委員報告跟大院報告說我們草案現在已經大致上面就緒那麼在很快的時間內做最後的這些核對可能就可以送到大院但是因為今天有委員提案民眾黨的提案是整個一五三之十都要刪除並到四一六所以這一點是我們比較憂心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12390.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12418.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
目前我們在研擬快要好的那個那個執法的這個授權根據會變成沒有那這個因為這部分在在有跟委員報告說各個國家都這個都非常重要這樣讓他怎麼做他跟一般的一般的處分是不同的很多的國家甚至在母法裡面就定到非常非常詳細底下這一種這一種徵收所得到的東西要怎麼處都定在母法我們是至少要有一個這個這個授權命令給我們我們才能夠才能夠去做那但是速度我們絕對會盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12420.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12448.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以還沒有公布的這個事件但是已經草案已經大致上就緒好還要經過行政院這一邊好那當然我們今天看到了有不同的委員和黨團的這個提案版本對於這個修法的意見有別那就連這個法務部和司法院之間對於這個條文修正的意見也未必完全有共識我想這個重點還是在有效打擊這個詐欺的犯罪和保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12448.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12467.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
議員． |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12468.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12484.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
近期內這個我們國防部有這個高階將官和情報人員各自外洩的事件那發生這種不該發生的事情不但引發社會嘩然那我想軍方也相當的懊惱從目前所有了解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12487.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12513.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
請醒來看是因為人為疏失那在公文程序上處理不當所造成的而國防部我們的部長昨天也在這個詢答的時候表示目前已經有這個法務部廉政署介入調查那我想請教署長那本案的這個行政調查就是由這個廉政署主責嗎那目前進度為何預計多久的時間能夠完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12514.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12543.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
是,謝謝委員垂詢。跟委員報告一下,這件事情因為情治人員的這個安全部分是我想國人都非常重視。所以一旦發生了這個事情之後,第一個時間聯證署之事以後就已經有派人去國防部進行了解。那相關的這個行政還有有沒有涉及到刑事的部分,我們會儘速的調查。那有關於行政責任的部分,我們會儘速在近日內就可以去釐清。然後就是說如果有這個責任的部分都會加以追究。 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12545.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12567.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
好那後續的調查的這個行政處分的部分是交由國防部還是我們廉政署來追究我們目前上面的那個行政調查因為國防部他是請國防部政風室這邊在做然後我們的部分因為他有涉及到政風人員所以我們廉政署也有派我們的視察室去針對政風人員有沒有涉及到這個疏失的部分進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12569.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12598.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好那由於這個本案齁這個機敏的資料外泄知識體大那除了檢檢討相關的這個疏失這個也要嚴嚴格的這個懲處啦齁那除了內部行政的調查要完整我想在法律上也需要採取必要的作為啦齁那就目前本案能夠透露的部分這個該案的承辦人員是否已經被這個移送法辦啦齁那並且承辦人員可能會面臨什麼樣的行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12599.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12610.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
是跟委員報告就是說這個案件他我們在去了解的時候那事實上就是說因為我們的這個針鋒的同仁他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12611.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12632.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
就是因為我們財產申報基本上是本機關只能知道本機關的一個相關的一個資料那這一件是因為今年度國防部他剛把就是說原本是屬於機敏單位的一個政風資料的這個業務由督察室移來政風室這邊來處理所以說我們的政風室同事在新接這個業務的時候跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12633.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12634.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
（二（二（ |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12659.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12675.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
請我們就是強加調查應該要有一個一個比較明確的結果那這次的事件是這個政風單位在進行財產申報時所發生的那這邊想在追問這個規範上我們目前所定有的這個政風機構維護公務機密作業要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12679.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12700.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但仍然發生這麼重大的疏失恐怕是對於這個機密文件在處理的這個流程所參照的原則未能完全落實所導致的那在國安部所發生這個問題在其他政風單位同樣也可能會發生類似的這個情形那我想請教次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12701.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12722.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
您認為應該要如何來精進規範以避免這個政風機密這個洩漏的情形再發生?這當然涉及到若個案發生的話我們首先就要把這個個案查清楚如果事實是怎麼樣如果是有我們的政風人員有為事的話當然我們要透過究責的方式來避免未來再發生這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12723.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12723.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
閱议委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12748.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12770.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那這一次的這個資安問題其實造成重大的這個國安危機的情況那是絕對不能再縱容那廉政署作為這個政風單位的指導機關務必確保類似的這個情勢不再發生不論是對於作業要點在進行檢討或是加強對同仁的這個宣導及教育的訓練讓各這個政風單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12773.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12800.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
甚至是所有接觸到機敏資料的單位都能夠引以為戒了那是不是也請我們這個法務部會同相關的資安單位對於這個政風業務持續的精進辦法這個部分有沒有辦法做一個比較這個簡單的說明跟委員報告我剛剛已經跟委員報告這部分法務部走旁帶我們要求所屬的廉政署一定要落實剛剛委員所講的這一個個案的檢討跟法令方面的修正謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12800.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12814.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好那市長跟署長您先請問我想請教我們那個警政署張署長主席再給我一點時間包括主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12816.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12832.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
主席我想請教主席另外就是在前幾天這個宜蘭縣議會的這個網站疑似遭到這個病毒這個駭客的侵入那導致民眾在google這個宜蘭縣議會的這個關鍵字的時候網站卻是導 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12837.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12851.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
導引到這個股市的這個教學連結很明顯這是投資的這個詐騙的網站那也讓鄉親痛批我們詐騙集團的這種做法太過於囂張了那據我了解議會在發現之後也立即報警 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12852.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12875.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那並且由這個刑事單位協助來偵辦我想這個案子所涉及的公共利益應該也有適度的公開說明的必要我想請教我們署長對於這個依然縣議會網站被害的這一個案子目前我們偵辦的情形為何那對於犯罪來源來自境內或境外是否已經掌握初步的這個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12878.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12898.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
好那宜蘭縣議會的這個網站被被駭客就是侵占這一些的這個一夜市的一個詐欺的廣告那第一時間宜蘭縣就有跟我們宜蘭縣警察局來報案我們有立即馬上就去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12899.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12919.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
現在初步了解現在這個的網站是由駭客從境外駭客的一個狀況是境外的一個駭客那跟原先的google的這個原先的這個是沒有關係是駭客的一個狀況那我們目前這個案件應該整理相關的這個見證在追這一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12923.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12949.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
主要證實了這個身份由刑事局跟宜蘭縣警察局現在在報地點組指揮在戰犯當中好持續追蹤了是好那這個詐騙網站是在被民眾發現之後然後似乎在網路上存續一段時間那這部分我想了解的是在實務上我們政府的網站被冒用在即時因應上的這個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12951.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12977.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我們在和這個網路業者之間的這個通報上大概要需要多少的時間才能夠請他來下架這個詐騙的這個連結那我們現在對於這些的詐騙只要是是發現到是一個詐騙我們有這一些的管道有些是20小時以內就能夠下架了24小時對速度很快就會下架有沒有辦法更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12978.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13003.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
因為有一些網站你發現之後你通報之後他們那邊只要電腦系統去做操作對我們這個部會陸續在做跟因為這個主管機關是樹花部那有一些的這些平行的這個溝通我們會來跟這些部會來溝通對於這些網路的這些的一個平台的業者能夠加快下架這些炸機的一個廣告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13004.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13018.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那因為這一次的案子是政府的這個機關網站被害然後那也擔心是否會造成在公務上的這個資料外洩的情形包括議會工作的人員的個資或許或是存儲存於這個議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13019.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13020.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具 «刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案»案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13044.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13070.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
過九年的議員這是第一次聽到議會的網站被害而政府機關的網站應該是提供便民的服務並且是值得民眾所信賴的要做到防範詐騙集團冒用政府機關相信也需要跨部會跨機關的合作我想再就教我們署長這部分是否有其他宣導規劃和精進措施的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13070.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13089.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
好那這個部分就是說第一個就是自己的這個網站的治安的防禦的能力一定要在做做加強防禦這些駭客的入侵那第二部分就是說這一些如果有第一時間發現到這個有有駭入的這個狀況應該是這個公務的單位應該隨時每日有人要去做監看 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13095.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13114.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
禁看這些的相關的這個訊息如果發生這個訊息我就馬上提示來做處置那第三個部分就是說我們對於這個廣告的這些的這些業者一定也要有這些的約束他們要自有管自己要做管理這個屬於是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13115.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13130.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13131.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13159.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我還是請我們署長後續的溝通平台架構好之後對於相關部會內之間的協調希望能夠有一個比較完善的處理方式也避免我們民眾對於政府機關的網站的信賴會打折如果我們能夠把被害的情形做一個比較完善的處理相信未來這種事情應該會比較少再發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13160.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13165.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
議員提供的相關資料會以書面答覆,請相關機關及諸宋交各別委員及本會。討論事項所列議案報告及詢答完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13188.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13197.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那我們就本議案我們另定期繼續審查那本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家 |
| IVOD_ID |
16209 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16209 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-8 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-24T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-24T12:10:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |