| video_url |
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| 會議時間 |
2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
16110 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 12:59:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
131.152 |
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136.829 |
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法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1707.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1707.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
暫停會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1764.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1793.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1848.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1856.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
報告委員會出席委員10人以足法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1858.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1886.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年10月23日星期三上午9時至下午1時16分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員陳永康等11人列席委員張祺凱等17人列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員國家安全局副局長黃明昭法務部調查局副局長孫成一海洋委員會海巡署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1888.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1906.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
信謝慶清﹚內政部警政署防治組組長陳百祿﹚經濟部國營事業管理師師長胡文忠﹚衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等﹚主席林召集委員易軍報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二﹚邀請國防部部 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1907.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1922.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
部長．國家安全局．法務部調查局．海洋委員會．海巡署．內政部．經濟部．農業部．國家發展委員會．國家科學及技術委員會．交通部．數位發展部．衛生福利部報告．針對解放軍未來可能透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖之國安危機． |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1925.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1943.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
及如何確保關鍵物資自主．關鍵產業．基礎設施．能源自主．民生物資．糧食安全及醫療物資供應無餘之應處作為．並備質詢。國防部部長顧立雄報告委員盧美林等18人質詢均由國防部部長顧立雄．全民防衛動員署署長白潔龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1945.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1961.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文鑫經濟部國營事業管理司司長胡文忠農業部綜合規劃司副司長黃興達交通部綜合規劃司司長張垂龍航港局副局長陳兵權數位發展部主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1962.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1987.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
秘書、湖北地級衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並赴資本會委員令指定期限者從其鎖定三委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1991.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2015.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
請問正常委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處那議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國防部部長報告國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰．並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁及無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2023.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2026.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那介紹在場的委員陳永康委員羅美玲委員介紹與會的官員顧立雄部長副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰常務次長楊基榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2056.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2083.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
全民防衛動物園署署長 白潔龍總督察長 市總督察長 張元勛政治作戰局局長 陳玉玲軍備局局長 林文祥主計局局長 謝祺賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2088.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2098.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
軍醫局局長蔡建松戰略規劃師師長黃文啟資源規劃師師長鄧克雄法律事務師師長沈世偉整合評估師師長苗慧芬國防採購室主任趙雅萍 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2119.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2134.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
政務辦公室代理主任南靜婷政風室主任王正國人事參謀次長室次長劉佩智情報參謀次長室次長謝日生作戰及計劃參謀次次長陳文興 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2152.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2168.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通勤電子資訊參謀次次長鄧恩年訓練參謀次長是次長張俊智陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2182.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2201.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
海軍司令部參謀長 邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長 王德陽後備指揮部參謀長 薛淵全憲兵指揮部參謀長 呂正芳陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長 劉清勳 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2212.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2239.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁電訊發展室執行長許益興國防大學教育長李承忠中科院院長李士強 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2246.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2257.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
由於國防部長每週四都要參加重要的專案會議．所以顧部長今天列席備詢．巡禮從中午起請假．12點之後將由副部長徐衍璞代理備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2263.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2275.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本日會議邀請國防部顧立雄部長針對國軍無人機運用現況與未來的發展以及協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區之開發作業進度進行報告．並備質詢。請顧部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2291.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2303.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席、各位委員先進今日應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對國軍無人機運用現況與發展及中科院民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發計畫關切與指導再次表達誠摯謝意 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2308.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2336.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
2022年二五戰爭及2023以下衝突無人機在戰場環境中有效發揮不對稱效能為加速推動我國無人機發展本部以行政院指導協助中科院執行航太及無人機產業園區開發透過軍民合作鏈接中科院與國內民間的技術與產能建立無人機產業聚落達成國防自主目標強化全社會防衛韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2337.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2353.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
接續由國防部軍委局長李文祥中將就國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰．並就協助中科院民雄航太及無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況向各位委員實施報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2366.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2376.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
召委、各位委員好、軍備局、局長報告:「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰．並就協助中科院民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況 。」因應當前提請威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2382.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2396.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
借盡無二戰爭無人機的應用﹐發揮創新不對稱作戰效能本部已籌購多款無人機應用部署﹐可達縮短目標徵收與攻擊效果﹐協力各型主戰裝備發揚火力及發揮作戰效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2400.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2407.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
中科院在嘉義民雄擁有54公頃土地目前以營運資金11.1億元於民雄東側園區開發軍規無人機產線預劃115年投產令行政院113年8月23日核定以公共建設預算68.59億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2420.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2439.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
114至117年由中科院與民雄西側土地建置航太及無人機產業園區為落實國防自主推動軍民技術整合本部課證督導中科院積極推動並入力提前完工有關國軍無人機運用現況未來發展及民雄產業園區開發作業進度及概況說明如後。2.國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展1.運用現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2448.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2458.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
國軍無人機在作戰運用中主要區分堅徵及攻擊兩種任務依工人大小機型及機型不同運用說明如何包括依堅徵型 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2460.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2475.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主要提供擊殺鏈中目標的獲得、標定、追蹤、戰果評估等能力並可即時傳遞戰場情報提升各型武器戰場覺知能力大型無人機執行長時間遠航程聯合監偵任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2478.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2496.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
提供早期預警及掌握敵軍動態所獲目標匯入指管系統建立共同作戰圖像二、中小型無人機對敵實施及時偵搜及識別提供我各型飛彈及武器精確目標位置增加目標獲得手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2497.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2522.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
2.攻擊型．可藉機體配置感知器及彈藥．致力執行擊殺鏈的程序．對爭獲目標．對爭獲敵目標實施即爭即打．1.小型人員殺傷型無人機．可跨越地形限制及建物障礙．針對集結的部隊、車輛及敵重要人員．進行即時攻擊．縮短作戰反應時間．有效摧毀目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2526.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2538.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
中型仿裝甲型無人機具長距離飛行能力可延伸現有仿裝甲武器攻擊距離對敵戰甲車實施攻擊降低我人員風險及裝備消耗 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2541.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2569.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
並藉機動靈活部署．增強對計劃及靈基性高價值目標攻擊效益．發揮不對稱關鍵戰力。二、未來發展．參考烏俄戰爭與以阿衝突經驗及本部國防創新辦公室 綜合敵情威脅戰爭形態．及軍民科技發展研究分析．未來無人機發展方向將以科技取代人力．火力取代兵力提高作戰效益說明如何。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2571.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2580.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
藉中科院研發團隊民間新創技術能量及國際科技合作發展AI人工智能化、自動感測目標分配等技術。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2583.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2608.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
研製發展各類制空彈藥．結合傳統驅直射武火力．以提升攻擊效能。．掛載武器或精準彈藥的無人機．以提升對敵臨機及高價值目標．及時攻擊能力。．中科院通營無人機完成研發測評．日圓二型通過測評及精進項目驗證．紅雀三型已完成測評報告送海軍備查． |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2610.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2619.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
需依軍種需求及國防預算配付進行量產．以提升國防整體戰力。三、中科院民雄航太機無人機產業園區開發作業進度及概況一、園區發展目標與策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2627.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2642.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
①發展目標,經過我國無人機產業生態系,以AI迭代創新速度,創造價格及品質優勢。②發展策略,導入低速風動及AI算力中心,以設計測試服務,吸引產業進駐。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2645.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2646.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
2.客製化場域設置減少產業進駐障礙與區內營運成本3. |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2646.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2650.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
設立產清除冷韌性電網﹐有效調節尖離風電力﹐達成低碳排核核心目標2. |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2650.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2650.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
配套重點工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2666.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2691.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
民雄西側基地航太曁無人機產業園區開發作業將於113年12月底完成專案工程管理技術服務案並展開尋商需求確認後續本部軍備局將成立專案編組督導中科院專人專責落實工程進度管理並配合經濟部加以縣政府招商作業如期如質達成園區開發目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2694.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2708.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
民雄東側基地中科院自用園區同步展開開發建構無人機產業生態系支持無人機產業聚落行程有效提升廠商進駐醫院重點規劃如後 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2710.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2714.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
自112至114年以中科院營運資金投資11.1億元開發5.12公頃新建園區基礎建設無人機研發產至棚廠移動、園宿大樓移動預計115年啟用以產至中大型軍規無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2731.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2746.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
以啟動規劃設置、低速封凍等檢測儀具、設備及無人機AI模擬及算力中心提供無人機產業進行外型、結構等系統功能設計、測試及關鍵軟體晶片開發並透過AI模型迭代訓練優化之模擬驗證強化自主設計能力之準確度以縮短開發期程及降低研發成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2761.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2778.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因應無人機發展日新月異．相關科技的多樣化運用．本部將以國防科研預算．協助園區AI算力建置．並藉整合國家部會資源補助關鍵技術發展．強化國際行銷分工整合能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2779.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2796.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有效發揮國內產業優勢及彌補國際區紅色供應鏈需求建立無人機自主安全生產供應鏈提升國防產業韌性後續懇請大院繼續支持各項國防政策及施政作為報告完畢 敬請指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2804.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2820.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
現在開始詢答本會會員時駕2分鐘非本會的會員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情況進行處理現在由羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2831.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2841.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
謝謝主席 有請顧部長還有經備局林文祥中將那還有中科院李士強中將請顧部長是 羅委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2849.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2860.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
部長好部長從這個無二戰爭的國土防衛作戰當中我們看到無人機呢確實扮演了非常重要的這個角色可以充分發揮不對稱作戰的這個優勢那我國也是借鑒於此所以這幾年來一直積極的這個籌建無人機的這個戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2868.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2894.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那除了我們像國外這個軍購的這個MQ-9B無人機之外其實我們也透過中科院委制或是國內商購的方式來做籌貨那剛剛我有聽到我們軍備局我們林中正有提到那目前無人機的主的機種主要是區分為艱增跟這個攻擊兩大類那是不是這兩大類就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2897.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2921.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這兩個機型是不是完全就合乎我們作戰時候的這個需求所以本期先前有參閱了這個國防情勢特刊它裡面有刊登了一篇是有關於我國無人機軍事運作的這個現行跟未來的發展的一個分析報告那裡面有提到就是說目前我國的無人機如果對應到108年國防報告書所提出的整體防衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2926.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2928.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
本席和辦公室重新整理了目前我國服役中或是研發中無人機在整體防衛構想當中的對應的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2948.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2973.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
現在我們提到的整體防衛的構想其實它是分為三個階段第一個階段就是戰力防護階段第二階段就是兵海決勝第三就是這個貪案間敵那我們先來看就是第一階段的部分我們看看是說我們目前所擁有的這個無人機是不是就合乎那個階段我們所需要的這個機種 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2975.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2981.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
OK 我們先來看的是戰力防護的這個階段其實戰力防護階段是貫穿整個作戰的這個全程那我們需要經過我們要需要透過各種手段來保持這個戰力並進行這個損害的控制也就是說讓這個損害到最小那所以我們這時候需要的這個機型應該就是微小型、戰術型跟輻射型的無人機那確實我們就要像 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3004.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3006.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
中國、美國、俄羅斯等國家都有投入研制 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3027.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3029.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
請問未來是否會投入資源進行無人機的研製? |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3052.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3076.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
運輸型無人機的研製請問跟委員報告就是中科院所有的研發需求都是依照軍種提出的作戰需求來發展那的確目前軍種並沒有提出有關無人機他並沒有提出來那變成說中科院這邊的話就沒有就沒有來做研發那請問部長這部分的話我們為什麼沒有提出呢因為我最近也看到相關的報告確實這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3079.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3102.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個運輸型的無人機,美軍正在研發事實上也因為涉及到無人機的載重的能量,它的航程還有存貨率等等的所以我想我們根據美軍現在的相關我們看到的這些報告,我們會來積極的研討運輸型的無人機在 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3107.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3132.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
整個這個作戰的這個防衛作戰上面的一個需求來進行那這個部分我認為這個如果我們有一定的作戰需求的話我們自主研發的能力應該是還可以我們其實也是有這個能力來做研發的嘛因為之前我有看到那個交通部其實他們也希望就是利用這個運輸型的這個無人機他可能是屬於比較小型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3132.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3156.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
用來載運這個油物、處理油物的這個事情其實這個部分的話我們我覺得應該是可以來做延伸那因為我在這個報告裡面有看到所以我特別的提出來這部分應該是我們在作戰的時候很特別需要的那再來還有我們在看到第二階段就濱海決勝的這個部分那濱海決勝這部分它是最主要是在路上或是海上來做這個攔截比如說我們可以來癱瘓敵方的高價值的這個艦艇等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3161.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3187.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以我們所以這部分的話當然就是這個需要的這個我們可以看到說我們有這個艦翔嘛可以攻擊這個敵艦的這個雷達通訊系統等等可是我有看到其實我們還是有少了兩個功能因為我我之前有請辦公室稍微去做了一個一個整理就是說OK好不然艦翔也好或是說我們即將要要購入的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3189.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3191.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有嗎 有辦法嗎 有 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3216.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3243.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
也是有是不是?那有在進行當中嗎?第一個先跟委員報告那個建翔他是有匿蹤能力的並不是沒有建翔是有匿蹤的能力嗎?有匿蹤而且他還伴隨幼兒所以他還有幼兒?是還有伴隨幼兒因為我目前看到建翔的細節還沒有到這麼多一直看到就是說其實我們應該因為專家學者有在提到說其實這個部分的話我們應該是要來做研發那另外還有一個就是空中的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3245.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3246.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
公極型無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3264.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3276.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
不一定要從逆中發展就我們的戰術概念來講的話我們現在的是數量我們要數量很龐大的攻擊型無人機然後配合我們其他比較昂貴的精準戰役可是我們的數量好像到目前為止我們的數量其實還是不足的我有看過這個烏克蘭他們一年當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3282.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3285.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
各位委員報告,我想可能太具體的,我想不是以太多過多的介入,但是總體來講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3304.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3326.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
共軍假設要登陸作戰的時候他在這個航路的過程當中會有一個最脆弱的時候那在最脆弱的這個階段我們現在要發展就是在他最脆弱的那個階段然後來運用無人機來進行一個攻擊那這個可能是尋求一個大量的或者有一個匿蹤功能或者甚至是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3328.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3354.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
就是說也有一個精準的一個功能等等這些所以各式的無人機現在發展的這個速度是非常的快的大概不多久就會有新的這種概念出來所以我們現在沒有辦法跟委員在公開的分享但是這個部分是我們無人機的運用甚至包括無人艇的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3355.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3372.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這個部分是我們在整個防衛構想上面日後一定會扮演非常非常重要的角色OK了解這個部分的話OK如果不方便透露的話那這樣我們這個這一題就到這裡那再來呢下來我想要提到的就是原物料短缺的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3376.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3388.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我相信台灣真的有能力生產無人機的機組件等等可是我們缺乏的還是原物料當然我看到的資料都是來自於很多的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3390.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3390.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
第8點 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3422.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3450.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我想我們現在就是說或者中科院先回答說明它一些相關的一些部分然後我再整個就整體我們現在委員就是針對供應鏈韌性的部分其實我們也做了很多最壞狀況的想定當然現在很多我們進口都沒有問題那我們甚至已經布局到就是說假如您剛剛講的相關原料我們被封鎖了或者是進不來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3451.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3477.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
或是斷絕進來我們用其他的替代方式例如3D列印例如射出金屬的射出成型這些都是未來我們會去努力的方式所以你們都有覆案對不對不會說因為這個供應鏈出了問題之後我們沒有辦法繼續其實還是可以的這個我們推演了很多有辦法解決就是了那當然我知道你們可能很多細節無法來做透露可是我想知道就是說萬一供應鏈出了問題我們是有沒有辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3479.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3507.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那再來還有一點我有看到國防安全研究院的國防國安所有提到他說臺灣的廠商有能力算上90%的無人機零組件可是目前臺灣還沒有辦法做到的關鍵零件是光電球相機雲台就等於這個無人機的眼睛這部分我沒有辦法解決嗎我看這份報導好像是10月份最近的BBC News裡面所報導的針對這部分我想請教國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3509.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3537.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們現在正在採購一項設備我們採購這個設備進來之後我相信在很短的時間之內光電球的部分我們可以克服可以克服 我們可以自己來我們目前的話都是從哪裡採購 以色列日本比較多我們自己本身有辦法來研製我們現在就是想要跨過這個障礙但是它的有一個關鍵性的設備我們最近才獲得輸出許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3538.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3564.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以說這部分是可以解決的大概還要一年的時間還要一年的時間那我知道真的是很不容易我們台灣的這個無人機隊我們當然是期待就是說我們都能夠來自己來做研發那當然我們就是要創造我們就創造我們自己的這個軍力那這部分非常感謝我們國防部還有這個軍備局跟中科院的這個努力以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3570.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3572.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
謝謝羅美玲委員部長請回接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請顧部長請顧部長也麻煩軍備局長跟中科院院長因為等一下討論有一些是在運用跟技術性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3604.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3613.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
部長您好是陳委員好今天的題目是很熱的但是因為涵蓋的範疇非常廣有些人是從採購的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3616.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3616.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
國防部主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3640.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3661.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
是屬於消耗型是微型戰場內還是在陸上城鎮戰用因為的機率都使用不一樣或者兵海作戰用甚至大型的能夠這個爭打合一把它做一個矩陣出來那因為在2014年那時我還在海軍服務我們4月10號就做了國軍第一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3663.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3679.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
臺平島兩棲實兵登陸那個時候中科院的第一代紅穴無人機但是因為通訊我們使用的是軍用頻道所以在船上把無人機用手指起飛看到兩棲登陸全程錄影畫面船會船上再透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3680.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3701.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們的衛星船會作戰中心因為那個時候我們已經構建了一個同步顯示戰場還有圖像所以看到的不是影像我們坐標圖像都已經建立了但是因為現在在發展過程中間民間廠商非常多那剛才這個院長也提了將來我們的雲台的相機如果能夠解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3703.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3718.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
因為在傳輸過程中目前民間廠商使用的大部分是以中華電信的這個微波載台微波來做但是到軍中以後我們有自己的頻段但是那麼大的數量這個頻段的分配就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3719.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3737.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
在台很多但單位時間使用的時候受限於頻寬所以建議我們跟NCC要來再討論我們要提出更寬裕的軍用頻道這個要來爭取目前我們做的大概都是中等解析度還不是到高解析度跟MQ-9B的傳輸度 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3739.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3762.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
是完全不一樣的那個是大空域大領域長時間那9B的我在本席在國外的時候也參訪過也看過那只是提出來現在我們希望在解析度維持在中等解析度那傳輸速度跟頻關使你雖然有很多的架次但能夠同步使用的架次數量能夠保持彈性跟增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3765.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3788.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
因為這個大家都關切就是系列性的中共軍演從利劍A B那國防部都有整理整套的系列顯示戰場圖像那因為我們長時間都講在共同圖像你要有大格局從大範圍有共同的作戰圖像共同的戰術圖像然後在火邪的圖像所以從中間這張圖你看到有COP CTP |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3790.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3790.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3819.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3839.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們立法院的照片各位看到的這就是3014精度、緯度、無人機的高度那這個精緯度它還是用60度60秒60分它還沒有完全變成digitized所以將來你傳回的無人機的圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3841.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3842.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
他看到的理解的目標不會誤判 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3860.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3876.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個是提出建議這是一個很重要的這是從使用端來看我們看到操作過程中有很多模擬的場景跟中科院實驗室做的是有落差但是呢要滾動式的調整這個在軍備局跟這個中科院這邊能不能做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3878.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3902.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這跟委員做個報告齁剛剛好就是預計在下個月我們要跟陸軍司令部陸軍司令和國防部連參做一個展示這個展示裡面最重要的就是套圖的部分我們現在可以做到的就是把即時經過我們上面的即時衛星當然這個衛星是我們已經有簽約的衛星它經過的同時它的衛照直接能夠套疊到我現有的地圖上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3903.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3912.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
精準的套疊就有點類似剛剛委員所講的味道所以說這個是我們目前正在進行而且已經有了技術來源的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3913.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3939.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好現在剛才您提到就是有關雲台相機跟通信模組這兩個關鍵當然我們能夠克服往後走還要一點時間最主要就是說各個製造廠商他的這個風動還要委託中科院來做因為他的飛行受氣流的限制因為你的這個雲台相機最主要就是說你本身的三軸穩定跟飛機的飛行姿態不是同步 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3940.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3954.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那個要做微調那個控制部分可能在中科院部分要花比較多的功夫那至於通信模組這個我們想就是由我們的這個通知次長室跟這個速發部在溝通的時候要爭取更大的頻寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3956.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3956.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3985.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4005.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
規格要套到民間的這種小型這種小型無人機本來就是耗損型消耗型他達到零可惜用掉無人機但不要犧牲我們士兵的性命所以在操作手冊的叫飯裡面這種消耗型的是不要去追究操作手的責任本來就是耗損的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4006.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4021.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
比方講這個飛機是三年有效你不可能在你部隊維持維保能力不需要他是耗損型的那最主要就是未來的趨勢將來因為飛離到海岸線以外你可能要跟海事衛星又做連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4021.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4024.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
中科院還要幫廠商做一些模擬就是這個您剛講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4048.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4073.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
對對各種的訓練細節我不提那最主要是因為這些數據做出來以後廠商要配合中科院的保密協定因為做出的參數不能夠外洩外銷是因為它是一個package但是我在測試過程中間我的測試能量不要把它流露出去那今天我的報告主要就是提出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4074.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4074.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4084.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4104.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
從作戰區的小部隊到戰區的戰術部隊的顯示以至於防衛作戰大規模的同步使用那這個平台我們還是希望能夠就是剛剛講到因為數位化的顯示一定要做同步的校正那這個經緯度並不代表操作手他對目標的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4105.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4132.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
送回的情資跟上面兩層長官看到的他的決心下達是不是確定同一目標你還要有威脅資料的參數資料庫自動做比對那這個部分就請中科院跟國軍把AI的識別要導入等於說目標的資料庫目標的圖像3D的可以扭轉的那同時對目標的解析度 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4132.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4133.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
接下來我們請王定宇召委上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4164.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4166.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好 謝謝昭偉 麻煩部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4172.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4193.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分,請連期也上來一下。那個部長先請教一下,現在美日的聯合歷劍Kingsaw 2024,這個大概是一二十年來的,這個是正牌的歷劍演習,美國跟日本,兩年一次。那今年我看它的規模比以往都大,除了動用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4194.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4212.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4213.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4214.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
本席在這邊詢問每日的歷屆聯合軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4242.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4243.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我們有沒有去觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4244.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4273.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的他動用的參演的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘然後這主武戰機有達到370餘架次這樣子那他這個參演演練的科目也是相當的這個全程包括他的演練科目,因為他從 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4274.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4299.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
10月23號到11月1號跟中國那個山寨版的立建完全是不一樣的東西對,它從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈的防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通的安全確保、然後重要設施的防護、還有後勤的補給、醫療、聯合指揮通信系統等等這些都涵蓋在裡面那台灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4302.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4323.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4324.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4351.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4353.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4379.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4382.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4407.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4410.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4435.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4437.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4466.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4466.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4491.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4492.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4516.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
可以建構一個Not Today今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4516.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4525.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4528.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4548.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
有要求這個印太司令部他在協同這個印太的第一島鏈國家跟他自己來做這樣子的一個演練來產生一個所謂的一個協同嚇阻的一個效果的一個在政策這樣的一個政策觀念之下所從事的必要的一個軍事的一個演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4549.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4577.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以他在第一島鏈形成軍事嚇阻臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈所以他的效果上對我們臺灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦你聽我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4579.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4601.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的諮詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4603.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4625.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你看混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4627.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4644.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
跟委員報告 狙擊手成套裝備那個因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4647.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4659.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4664.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4692.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4693.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4713.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們的訓練對彈藥太節省我知道尤其陸軍三軍最可以配得上勤儉健軍的就是陸軍就會省但是彈藥其實它會有效期的那我們在訓練實戰的話實彈的訓練的話其實這一塊沒有必要節省所以我們的彈藥的配付量 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4715.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4730.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個應該讓狙擊手有專屬的增加射擊頻率我們現在都有一個叫平行調波部長你知道平行調波平行調波就是抓長補短這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4732.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4748.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加射擊訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4749.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4774.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有的單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4775.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4799.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4803.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4823.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4825.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4853.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好 這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有事關到交流協訓的部分對 這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4856.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4879.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4882.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4902.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4904.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4924.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對 今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就執行今年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4925.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4949.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
對 今年已經撤了以往我們居守需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓練可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4951.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4970.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
從其他國家戰場看到的經驗 夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足 裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看 回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4971.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4997.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
第一類、第二類、第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營、機部營第三類是機部班等等特首、特首對,我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手、維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同、接軌容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4998.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5022.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以原來的編制不是不好但如果我們是有盟友協同的時候我們比照他們的野戰狙擊手跟維安狙擊手在對話的與會戰術以及溝通上會比較容易接軌那現在的制度如果你們認為比較好我也尊重請你們思考一下以上給部長跟我們各聯參單位來做參考謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝委員謝謝王定宇召委部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5026.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5054.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
接下來我們請沈博洋委員上台質詢。好,謝謝主席。那有請部長跟全動署署長,謝謝。請顧部長。呃,是。呃,沈委員好。部長好。好,署長好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5055.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5083.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那這個呢我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民方法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我們還希望權重署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場啊等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民方法第二條那民方法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍一到九那他們是直接把第四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5084.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5096.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
支援軍事勤務這六個字直接全部拿掉這一條其實跟學生一點關係都沒有這一條指的是全部的民防工作所以支援軍事勤務有哪些呢在施行細則右邊這個第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5099.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5126.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間試：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5126.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5152.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5153.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5154.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我昨天也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5176.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5201.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊因為民防法第一條就已經規定平時跟戰時的任務嘛如果你把民防的工作的第四款拿掉那戰時的任務基本上根本就等於不存在了所以這一點是希望權動署能夠去幫忙溝通一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5202.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5228.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我想跟委員報告一下我想這樣子第一點就是說學校的這個這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護然後發揮自救護舊的這個功能所以那民防法的因為這個主管的機關是內政部那其實剛剛委員有指教就是說因為他民防的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5231.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5231.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5251.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5274.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好 謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5276.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5289.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5292.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5307.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5308.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5308.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5325.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5343.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
就取消了那我們也在利用我們的人事通報再次的要求這個個案應該是做當事人的營外行為的檢討跟視處而不要再去做類似為了維護全聯榮譽來共同約制這樣子的一個要求以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5344.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5368.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
謝謝蔡牧長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那連座其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,但其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5369.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5394.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
委員好 對不起 我是董事長 跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分 非常謝謝委員的指導 論上我都說過了但是要跟委員說明這件事情 這跟連座法是兩件事第一個 榮譽價不是處分 就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位 他個人 如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價 可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價 並不是處分 這點要核心序名第二個 他這個人犯的錯 是主觀針對說 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5396.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5424.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員部不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5425.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5452.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
他們有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5454.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5480.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5482.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5482.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
副部長提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5492.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5518.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
國軍推放全民國防教育培訓講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在台北市政府還在替代役的義男進軍召集的時候放了抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5518.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5519.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
臺中新兵入營遊覽車 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5534.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5561.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5562.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5591.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好 跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5591.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5610.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5611.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5630.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5631.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5652.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5653.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5673.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5676.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5705.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會有往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5706.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5723.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5725.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5745.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面它就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5746.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5747.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5763.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5790.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5791.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5812.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5813.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5815.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
謝謝沈博洋委員部長請回接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5848.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5852.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長請顧部長是 林委員好部長早安 這個一個禮拜連續兩天都在這個委員會見到您其實無人機這個話題我想因為全民都蠻關注的所以在委員會當中也提蠻多的了所以今天我其實比較想要針對就是像這樣無人機其實上一次我們在講到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5877.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5906.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
中共的聯合力艦B的時候我有特別點出一個點是說這一次他們在整個軍演的過程中還搭配了YT上面的這個展示喔那麼這個可以說是他們首次出現過去呢當然我們都說這個中國到底這個軍力有多軍容壯盛他們常常會有這些影片的展示但這一次他們是搭配了就是一個空景的畫面但是旁邊他們放了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5907.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5911.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
先所放進去的這個畫面當時我就說了這也是中國的一種大外宣那麼過去其實本席在媒體的時候我們知道我們多數對於我們到底我們的軍力戰備是什麼樣的狀況我們通常 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5922.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5923.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5945.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5958.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
長白就是恫嚇全世界恫嚇台灣人我稍微查了一下就是國防部各個單位社群其實使用的蠻多的但是主要都是臉書跟YT為主那麼我們知道這個陣戰局之前我在看這個我們的這個報告的時候呢也有特別提到有媒體試讀那麼我其實比較想要詢問的部長的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5968.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5970.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
過去軍文社它是提供媒體需求因為有一些包括在採訪的時候有一些機敏性所以無法讓媒體記者到第一線就是由軍文社拍好提供給媒體然後如果現在我在我們的夜報裡面看到的政戰局的這個媒體識讀這個是在舉光原地裡面所公佈的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5992.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6016.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我特別去看了幾集的內容啦專家學者中規中矩但是就會覺得影片很長但是卻沒有辦法真的那麼的吸睛其實本席今天的第一個題目要提出的是部長我們知道現在臉書YT我們都有在做使用可是觸及率不高當面對中國現在也在搞他們的大外宣甚至於是把他放到 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6017.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6041.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個YT上面讓國人來看或者是讓媒體來取用的時候我們在面對宣傳的時候雖然喔最近在野黨在卡總預算然後他們特別會去拿所謂的行銷預算來做杯葛認為說啊這個就是在洗人民的腦但是我必須要強調這種當別人也在尤其是我們的敵對勢力也在對我們進行恫嚇的時候那麼我們自己在 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6045.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6046.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
政政局先回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6068.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6070.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
委員好 我是證人局局長陳玉玲跟委員報告首先是在媒體試讀的部分我們除了在舉光原地播出之外同時我們也會在YouTube上面上架然後在我們的全民國防資訊網裡面所有的媒體試讀的課程也都會在我們的資訊網上公佈另外也會提供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6094.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6100.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們這個在職就是公職人員上課使用還有也會主動的喊給各縣市來做全民教育來使用那至於委員您所提到的就是說在開拓其他管道的部分這個部分我們會朝向這個方向短影音的方向來做因為現在YouTube上面其實是百家爭鳴如果你只是放上去的話多數是無法獲得點閱率的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6123.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6149.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那麼我們都知道其實現在民眾有高達80%以上他們會用LINE的方式或者是LINE的官方網站等等當然我不是在幫特定的社群平台來做推銷而是這種直接推播的方式觸及率會更高那麼如果只是被動的放在YT上面那麼常常就是放上去但是無人問津臉書也同樣所以我其實做一個提醒因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6150.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6174.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個必須要有一定的規劃那麼才能夠真的讓更多的這個有關於國軍需要傳遞的資訊讓大家看到那麼其實我想問的是這樣就是我們在這個有關於秀軍事肌肉是一件好事我也認為軍文社拍的影片有越來越好坦白說過去本席20年前在看現在的照片或是影片都非常的精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6175.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6194.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
但是就怕我們在拍攝的過程當中一個不小心啊就被人家找麻煩比如說國軍在這個呃國軍線上的陸軍有關於無人機的這個射擊模擬的過程當中非常的好拍的也不錯但是就被人家抓到說有用中國大通慢巴的晶片 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6195.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6219.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
甚至於過去我們在許多的這些展示的照片的時候也被發現說有大疆的無人機那像這樣的過程當中到底是我們本身無法拒絕紅色供應鏈還是說是照片的誤用這樣的一個狀況是什麼因為一方面我們本來是要宣傳軍融壯盛但是卻變成是吐賊變成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6221.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6233.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
有問題的影片或影像洩露出去那這個狀況有沒有一個事前的核稿或者是就是有審視這個照片的內容是不是可以出去所以你們的過程是什麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6235.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6260.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
委員好 我是新聞處處長跟委員補充報告一下有關審片機制基本上國防部其實是非常完整的從不管是軍媒單位本身然後到偵探局的階層都有不同的一個審片階層您剛剛提到這個影片有關於這個晶片這段東西它本身這個影片它是一個在概念驗證過程當中的一個影片所以它其實裡面的內容它強調的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6261.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6284.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
他並不是真的我們使用而是所謂的模擬畫面那你要知道像電視台如果是模擬畫面他上面會寫模擬畫面或非當事人或本人因為像這種照片一但出去之後或是這個影像一出去之後就很容易造成誤解比如說就像您剛剛解釋包括我之前在詢問的時候我得到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6284.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6310.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
答案也是所謂的概念影片但其實我直白的講它就是一個模擬畫面嘛就是非當事的影片嘛那像這個東西其實就是可以標註對不對是這個部分我們後續不管在影片裡面包括像委員提的這段東西怎麼樣去把細節東西標示清楚這個部分我們會依照委員指導來去做一個補充另外委員剛剛提到社群平台這段也特別跟委員報告其實國防部對社群平台的運用怎麼樣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6312.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6314.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
小編在翠上面的發文的語意也蠻接近年輕人使用的方式但是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6332.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6360.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
在這邊提醒的就是像中國大通曼巴這個晶片的事情或者是說我們的無人機採購或展示的過程中出現了大家無人機這種我們被視為是中國製紅色供應鏈的像這樣的照片或影像其實就不應該出去如果是概念就可以直接寫是概念式的部長是跟委員報告因為剛剛您提到那個因為這個是屬於還在概念驗證的一個階段的一個影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6361.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6386.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
剛委員指教就是說我們確實以後還要再多注意在這一點上面那這個部分如果說我們多元的這個傳播的這個管道我是覺得應該要希望這個政戰局也好跟新聞處也好我們來持續來精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6388.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6412.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那另外一個當然是本席一直在持續追蹤的就是軍中現在國軍是不是因為受到這個假借貸徵洩密的持續威脅因為在9月18號又有一對許姓的兄弟因為逃避債務涉嫌跟中共的情報人員勾結以借貸為名義那麼他們是以吸收現役軍人來發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6413.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6440.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
共諜組織從中獲取不罰所得高達397萬那麼其實在之前我也多次的指出說在社群平台上面會出現這種要你用軍人證又或者是你只要願意拍攝一些軍方機密的這些照片甚至不一定是機密你只要是所在你所在的軍營裡面的相關照片就可以獲取一定的獲利喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6440.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6462.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那麼其實這樣的事情我想我一直在追一直在問的原因是因為到底他只是真的提高國軍的金融素養就夠了嗎還是說其實在國防部或相關的單位有機會可以防範於未然比如說我們大概都知道弟兄的薪水是什麼樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6463.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6482.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
如果說今天國軍弟兄的薪水他的許多的負擔已經超出他的薪水所得我們知道像現在有些是因為資金的借貸甚至有一些是出現了打電玩然後去買點數卡等等那當然有另外一種是進入了所謂的詐騙陷阱 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6484.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6499.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那麼在這個部分請問部長在我們持續的追蹤之後到底這樣的事情除了事後的補鍋之外我們有沒有機會防範於未然先去了解國軍弟兄他們的財務的狀況呢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6502.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6515.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
是,我們現在應該是要來有一個輔導的機制跟人員的考核的方式的一個計畫來瞭解這個財務私人的這個官兵的一個態樣那如果有發現的話我們會跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6518.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6520.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
因為我們知道這個金錢的誘惑其實事實上過去一直是存在的那麼過去我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6546.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6560.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有相關的這種類似共諜組織他一定都是用錢的方式只是當然如果用這種現在通訊軟體社群平台這種借貸的方式可能更不容易去掌握但是他接觸力可能會更廣那麼這個部分的話恐怕除了心理輔導之外也在國軍內部的財務相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6568.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6588.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
的金融素養的培訓也是非常的重要那麼我再請部長跟相關單位能夠研擬出一個真的有效先防範與未然的方式對當然另外對國軍的這個相關的一些宣導和教育也是很重要的是好謝謝我們會持續來進行這樣謝謝林淳於委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6597.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6597.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6626.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6651.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
部長好 部長有沒有看到一個最新在Foreign Policy外交政策上面投稿的文章由臺灣民意基金會研究員黃寶榮破晃的這一篇文章有沒有得到相關的這個訊息您講的是那個雄三飛彈雄三的那個被透露的這個部分嗎不是我講的不是我講的是海豐部隊的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6657.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6669.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這篇文章有提到北京南德信息技術有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6670.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6690.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對對對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6692.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6699.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我有看到相關的報導,我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6703.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6724.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
應該是說一個信機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個信機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6726.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6749.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報告好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會不會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這個樣子但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候我們會有不同的戰術位置不會是固定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6750.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6775.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6776.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6790.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對因為信息管理現在是一個重要我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6791.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6820.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請這邊就公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6821.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6850.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我譬如說舉我不小心就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6850.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6866.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6868.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6868.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6886.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6900.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
委員好 我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6901.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6902.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
反情報有可能是以真是假 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6923.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6924.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6942.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6943.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
注紮基地的確切座標 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6965.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6966.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6987.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7015.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭秘的這個層級是要因應他的揭秘層級而不是因應他的關節像是昨天我們講到的廉政署的那一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7016.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7033.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
是委員講的對就是說我們按照美軍相關的做法的話我也現在已經要求了就是說不是階級而是以他揭秘的這個程度來進行這個人員安全的查核這個部分已經列入我們保安安全總隊應該要查核的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7037.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7056.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅那其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌獲的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌獲到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7057.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7072.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這一種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7074.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7097.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到要大量大量的話成本一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7098.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7117.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7118.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7143.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
對它是什麼?我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰找它的脆弱點來講相對於它來講它的無人機要過來特別是當然它大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是如果它的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對它的登島作戰的在這個不管近 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7143.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7144.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
再跟委員做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7169.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7184.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
自主的產能確實是重要的這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7185.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7185.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7205.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7205.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7220.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7243.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7244.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7266.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7267.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7275.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7289.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7308.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以我必須要強調說以後我們的民雄航太園區包含這個水面下的這些廠商如果願意進駐也都是一個他們也還是可以使用我們的相關的這些資源嗎是甚至包含檢測我們也可以先做檢測也可以先做OK非常感謝那再來就是民雄航太園區我們當初在地方有開說明會 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7309.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7330.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍附近有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7331.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7344.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7346.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7361.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7362.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7390.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7391.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7391.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7420.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7423.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7440.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7454.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
國防部長,我要延續我上次在這個地方你上任的第一天我就特別提出有關於我們臺東關山農民抗疫的戰備跑道 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7456.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7483.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
然後在這個地方特別質詢你然後呢你特別在這個地方也說請已經聽到地方的名義及我們空清參謀長曹敬平引諾檢討請聽地方的聲音來做一個討論但是我聽到的目前到底決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7484.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7507.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
要開闢關山戰略跑道還是有替代的一個方案現在我們鄉親在台東已經對我們現在國防部還有空軍已經憤憤不停到底有沒有答案因為有關於國防部在計畫拓寬台九線關山路 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7511.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7529.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
路段新建站面跑道軍方3月12日下午前往關山證供所向地方說明會前農民高級海報適時守護田地縣長姚慶林高分辨表態絕對反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7531.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7552.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
於在今年的7月9號帶著臺東各地方的農民包含農會包含民意代表包含政長民意代表都已經來到我們立法院來提出抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7553.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7578.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
而且你也說也聽到他們的聲音了可是到現在後續到底你見與不見我們要很清楚的來回應來回應我們的地方的民意以安安他們的心第一個如果在那個地方開闢戰備寶套的良田不是只有原住民在那個地方居住的居民裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7580.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7596.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
在這個整個的500公頃影響到將近1000公頃未來戰略跑道還不要再徵收土地一定會徵收但是問題是那個地方是糧食糧田的地方有 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7597.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7623.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
有機場但是你們要籌備良好的糧食如何供應我們國軍的戰備當然我對國軍的建軍戰備我絕對支持但是我們要跟地方要好好的溝通而不是模裡樣可毀謠視聽現在一概彌彰部長你來正面的來回答這個問題等一下參謀長你要回答這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7624.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7650.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
跟委員報告我想我這邊的立場已經表示過去也是相當明確就是說假設地方沒有辦法能夠支持的話那我們這個案子就沒有辦法來推動所以我們希望當然還是希望地方能夠來支持但是我們會持續來跟地方來溝通但是這個就需要跟地方多溝通了 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7650.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7678.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
但是如果沒有得到地方的一個支持的話我想我們也不會一定強行來推動但是我們希望地方能夠理解我們這個戰備的需要我們對國際的戰備開闢我們絕對支持但是地方的聲音我們是精明一家但我們要聽聽地方的聲音能不能適合在那個地方做戰備跑道我們有很多替代的方案希望部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7679.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7706.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
你對剛剛講的話請聽地方的民意如果地方已經很明確的而且上次也表達了還有地方的諸侯對人民帶著地方的民意代表包含農人這一些持有良田的這一些我們的鄉親都一起來表達抗議都已經聽到了所以這個就是已經很肯定的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7707.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7709.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那參謀長來我想請教一下你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7711.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7736.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
報告也就空軍的立場也是我們會持續聽從民意然後也會持續去跟當地的居民溝通不用再持續因為這個就是模擬兩可的問題剛剛部長也講了如果以地方的民意也堅持了應該有配套跟做一個其他的一些配套的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7736.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7754.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這才是剛剛我們部長所講的嘛因為將來以後臺九縣的這個三路段新建正面跑道是包裹裡糖衣的毒藥因為什麼正面跑道的後續會有限建跟限高的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7755.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7781.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
限制建設還有包含限高的問題造成限縮地方的經濟發展及農業的推動的發展這是會影響還有包含觀光所以這個就是已經很嚴重的問題了部長我們就是希望就剛剛委員所提的這些問題來跟地方來溝通有關這個您提到的限制的一些相關的議題讓民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7785.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7804.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
臺東地區相關的民眾能夠了解這樣子那如果能夠有一個大家能夠相互理解那我們就能夠持續來推動因為其他的替代方案到現在為止是還沒有辦法找到其他替代方案所以我們才希望能夠持續來進行溝通那當然我剛剛已經講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7805.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7806.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好不好 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7832.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7852.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們也希望能夠兼顧這樣子的雙贏的一個局面只是希望讓這個如果以後要有一個說明會的時候的話那是希望能夠讓我希望責成近期內跟交通部公路總局來 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7853.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7875.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
到我的研究室來大家在一起研究方向方針不要以民對抗我們居民是一家人我們希望在地方有觀光產業的發展包含糧食儲存的一個地方它又是一個稻米的一個糧米的一個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7876.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7903.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
又加上觀光所以這個就等等的讓地方造成能夠有經濟的發展包含他們產業的發展及生技的發展對我們老百姓來講是絕大的一個最大的注意不是因為我們要開闢上面跑道我不反對但是造成地方的發展跟觀光發展產業發展的話這不是你們要跟人民對抗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7904.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7932.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以這個就是我絕對反對在這個地方表達我的立場我也帶著我們台東鄉親的聲音絕對反對在那個地方你們應該有替代的方案以上那另外我特別講的防空系統台灣防空系統今天報告提出俄武戰爭和以哈的衝突的接近在以哈衝突以色列的防空系統發揮的攔截能力令人驚嘆 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7933.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7948.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
部長認為我國有辦法像以色列一樣的優秀防空系統能力嗎?第二個以色列的多層防空網讓它今年在四月的伊朗空襲中發揮了高達99%攔截力這當中包含了美國、英國、耶誕 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7954.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7956.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們先請空軍回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7984.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8010.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
報告委員,針對這個問題我們是都是從誠攔截,都是統一指揮管制的好,我們現在講,比較一下我們現在就是以色列雖然有強大的防空能力但在以卡衝突,乃面臨到防空飛彈不足的窘境以色列評估鐵穹防疫系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8010.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8012.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以今天有一個非常重要的國際期刊 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8029.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8056.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
外交政策刊出的指出我方擁有雄風飛彈的海豐部隊行動已被對岸掌握一旦開戰可能在短短的數秒內被牽媚第一個原因本席指起了我國的防空系統齊康宗指出被對岸掌握的是對海飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8057.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8076.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
但本席相信如果對海飛彈被掌握防空飛彈恐怕在中共的手裡這也不是秘密了。第二個請問一下部長這個國際知名期刊刊登的內容也是認知作戰嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8077.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8082.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
第二．如果對岸掌握是飛彈基地和機動飛彈車的動態．台灣會非常的危險．那刺蝟島難以發揮功能．國軍要怎麼樣的應對以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8092.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8112.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個部長來回答我想第一個就是說剛剛已經回答前面委員所詢問的就是說這個信機管理的一個重要性包括氣力偽裝跟這個引力還有對於無線電信號的一個管制所以我想就這個部分我們信機管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8114.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8137.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
會列為我們一個重要演練的一個項目之一那就這個部分我們也剛剛也提到我們會加強反情報跟反沾的一個作為來看看他這個在演練的過程當中他的氣力偽裝引力跟相關的這些訊息管理是不是有到位我想這個是一個那另外您提到的以色列航空系統大概分成就是說鐵雄跟大衛士投訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8138.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8147.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
大衛投石所這個部分屬於中層的那建設會站屬於遠層的那我們現在確實是有分成遠中近那至於這個數量的這個部分呢我們確實會 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8149.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8174.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對於飛彈的增加是至關重要所以你看以色列這麼精良的飛彈他們都要增加到3倍到5倍部長有沒有考慮我們台灣我們國防的飛彈的增加的數量有沒有更精良的然後有沒有再增加的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8174.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8192.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以我們持續會依作案需求來進行規劃因為這涉及到對外採購還有自主生產部分因為有一些是我們自主就可以生產的那就這個部分我們應該有規劃就是說比如說現在這個海空戰力特別提升計畫結束之後我們會再來持續再來增加好 謝謝謝謝黃仁委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8201.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8207.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
待會許曉欣委員諮詢完畢後休息5分鐘然後接下來我們請洪森漢委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8231.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8234.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
請顧部長跟中科院其實今天在質詢前我想也先跟兩位召委致意因為我們連續兩週那很快速的安排委員會到安排無人機的考察跟質詢這是大家非常關注的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8256.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8281.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那也請部長跟院長其實我其實在看了讀你們提供的報告裡面其實當然大家都這樣現在都很清楚知道無人機的重要性那尤其是在烏克蘭戰爭裡面其實烏克蘭確實是利用無人機去做到這個對不對稱戰力的補強那才有辦法能夠走到現在的以小博大的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8284.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8307.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
今年8月行政院其實核定了無人機產業園區的預算由中科院來負責園區的規劃跟設置看起來一個很重要的原則是所謂軍民協力這當然我們都認為是一個正確的方向尤其是中國的大疆無人機其實它當然早就有解放軍科技的扶植再加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8308.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8310.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
在今年的8月責成中科院去設置與運為無人機產業園區的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8337.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8354.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
目前有沒有提到園區管理單位打算怎麼做的確當時在8月23號行政院決議由我們來規劃設計的時候同時也說未來營運由中科院但是獨立成立另外一個園區的管理機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8355.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8379.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那園區管理機構你們現在打算因為我們現在在你們書面的資料裡面目前只有看到PCM的工程管理的規劃那去做這些建設性的規劃就是營造工程方面的管理但是對於園區的管理這個事情目前我們沒有看到在這裡面有更進一步的資訊或者說所謂的另一個單位是什麼民間單位嗎BOT嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8380.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8402.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
他是要由中科院成立一個管理單位但是又獨立於中科院之外是 因為我們現在看到中科院裡面當然自己設了很多生產線但是我自己也好奇中科院自己有跟民間廠商尤其對於民間的廠商進行管理的經驗嗎因為我們上個禮拜考察的時候我們去看了有一個這個軍民通用中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8404.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8418.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我現在想問像中科院的軍民通用中心現在面積是多少?然後有多少運員?那也包括這個有多少進駐的廠商?原區的面積大概17公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8420.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8445.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
中科院的院員只有80人進駐的廠商總共19家對那現在這裡面當然我們看到這個中心裡面有所謂的廠商的生產線可是我們當然有點擔心說到底中科院有沒有管理產業園區的經驗尤其是未來假如是有上百家的民間廠商假如要進駐的話這個部分中科院有管理的能力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8446.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8475.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我老實講其實我們自己對這一點也很懷疑你們很懷疑那你們打算怎麼辦你這樣講我們就擔心了因為他是在118年開始營運但是我們現在期待整個壓縮117年開始營運所以說這個問題我們也希望等進駐的廠商在我們明年PCM去訪商確定之後有哪些進駐的廠商院長你剛才在講你有沒有看到你右邊顧部長的臉都歪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8478.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8502.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因為中科院真的從來沒有管理一個園區的經驗說實話我們還在但是現在你們已經被要求要承擔這個角色了我講實話就是我們在努力你們在努力那個院長我知道這是一個很大的重責大任你剛才講到說你們這裡面的人員只有80位就是說如果我給你們幾個參考的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8505.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8527.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
因為我們現在看到這個軍民通用中心它其實比較像是一個產業育成中心其實裡面沒有生產線沒有廠房跟我們現在預想的所謂無人機產業園區其實明顯是不太一樣的狀態這你們應該心裡很清楚那無人機本身其實它是一個高科技產品坦白說我覺得台灣並不是沒有管理高科技產業園區的經驗當然不是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8529.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8550.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們過去國科會包括這個這個園區管理局等等的我們都有這些相關的經驗可是確實今天大家是希望由中科院來管理很重要的原因是因為大家原本設想這是一個所謂跟軍民協力嘛對不對我們很難把這個單位去外包去BOT出去給另外的人來管這裡面涉及到也許很多軍事上面的機密所以我自己還是認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8551.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8574.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
要交由國防部或者是中科院來管我覺得這是正確的裡面有很多機敏的資訊你沒有辦法全面交給一個民間廠商來管我覺得這方向是正確但現在重點是到底怎麼樣能夠快速的讓中科院管理產業園區的經驗真的能夠長出來我想先看一下下面一張如果我們看一下科學園區管理局大家可以看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8575.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8599.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
園區管理局他目前的員工是472位那進駐的廠商總共3個園區加起來進駐廠商1000多家其實如果我們仔細去看的話每人大概管理是10.8公頃包括每人其實協助就如果以管理人數來除的話每人是協助2.4家廠商坦白說你需要人你需要管理的經驗你需要錢那尤其包括我也要問部長因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8601.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8627.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
部長你的屬下剛剛講了實話說他也很懷疑自己有沒有管理的經驗部長你要不要講一下你對這個看法怎樣我認為就是要找有園區管理經驗的人然後跟他們進行交流之外然後讓這些有經驗的人能夠被中科院所招募進來然後進行這個園區的管理我們還有時間來做這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8627.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8655.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
其實時間並沒有很多部長你應該心裡很清楚因為我們把很多的時程也提前了所以我會督促中科院來盡快的來進行就是說就如同委員所講我們並不是沒有在臺灣並不是沒有這些管理這個園區經驗的人那我們針對這些有管理園區經驗的人我們要進行經驗的交流我們也要招募這樣的人才來負責這樣子的一個園區的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8655.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8675.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
部長其實我覺得你講了很多的重點但我這邊還是想要說其實我們過去大概我們也去請教了像園區管理局就是這個國科會下的園區管理局他們只是也在講說其實就一個科學園區裡面當然前面有好幾個重要的管理的議題比方說第一個環境跟公安這裡面我們其實這幾年其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8676.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8691.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
台灣的科學園區發展是還不錯的但是過去我們也犯過錯但是現在也做得還不錯那包括燒傷跟審查尤其是審查端我認為在無人機的產業園區裡面大概這部分更重要因為會有很多機敏的部分其實你需要去做檢核 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8692.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8708.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
關於園區的安全管制這些大概都是一個科學園區或者是高科技的園區要進行管理的重要課題但我們坦白說在今天質詢前也詢問了中科院確實你們中科院跟我們反映的事情是你們對這些事情都相當的陌生 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8710.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8733.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
你們可能知道自己怎麼拉你們自己的生產線但對於我要可能要去面對數百個相關的廠商這件事情你們我自己我自己感覺你們也相當的陌生或者是戒慎恐懼好聽一點的話是戒慎恐懼所以我這邊還是希望我們透過這個質詢也希望顧部長能夠來督促第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8735.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8741.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
中科院應該從現在開始就來找國科會包括他們的這個科學園區管理局 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8742.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8767.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
到底在前面建制的階段現在要做哪些的準備哪裡有相關的人才哪些議題哪些事情包括在前端尤其是廠商進駐前廠商規劃他到底要怎麼進駐他也需要時間他也要知道你的要求是什麼而不是啪一聲只是直接進來而已我覺得這些事情恐怕我自己是期待國防部趕快督促院長中科院 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8768.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8784.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我們趕快把這些事情給工作這真的不是只有PCM工程管理的部分現在我們只寫了PCM工程管理我覺得是有點太輕誤也太小看接下來這整個大家非常非常看重的無人機的管理園區這部分希望部長我們應該是可以強化來督導應該沒問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8785.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8809.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
是,謝謝委員的提醒,我想我們就立即請中科院來跟這個管理科學園區的這個單位甚至也包括可能包括像經濟部,經濟部跟這個國科會趕快來請教那我自己是希望說能不能夠在三個月內有一些初步請教至少你們對這事情相對重要的掌握可以給我們一份初步的報告,我知道三個月可能沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8810.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8810.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8840.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8843.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是 馬維好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8866.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8894.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8895.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8897.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
也花費了國防預算至少800億以上這個經費非常的龐大如果說包括研發跟現在使用生產的這個部分它已經快要接近千億元了可是我們在這個時候包括113年突然 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8917.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8946.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們用也不算突然啦112年大概就已經開始在規劃嘛就是說國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機那其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8948.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8953.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8962.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8982.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8984.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8995.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們中科院長期以來不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9013.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9019.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9042.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9045.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9061.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9078.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9081.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9090.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9109.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9117.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9124.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9133.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的一定的量能還有他的技術存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9151.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9167.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
可是像我們無人機國家對這樣子的一個部分他到底比我們現在花那麼多錢民間的他到底有沒有投入什麼經費我們不曉得那他花的錢一定不會比中科院還多那他們對我們的優勢到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9168.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9196.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9198.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9212.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9213.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9236.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商,我剛剛念了很多省的那些部分,你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等,跟你配合的廠商裡面,這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面,有沒有?有,中光電。中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9238.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9255.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
其他目前所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9264.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9290.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那是從中科院到漢翔現在占總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9293.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9301.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞園好 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9303.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9328.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在搞高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要生產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣其他部分是不是先請 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9329.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9351.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好 我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高一配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9353.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9374.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9375.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9378.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行任務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的整個預算全部都被排 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9396.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9423.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
現在因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢你至少你剛才你們之前做出來研發出來是可以偵打就是可以偵查也可以打擊的現在都沒有全部都是針尖型 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9424.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9442.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們用那麼多針尖型做什麼對 我們會有這種消耗型的攻擊型的這個無人機會出來這個給一點時間那另外當然提到了瑞恩2的運用它要抗八極風的理解是因為它是在海上做運用那有一些是屬於陸軍進程戰術的無人機的這個部分你現在買的不是你現在買的這六型 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9447.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9451.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9472.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9490.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這是我們只要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛你應該可以有功能的你也要採購啊而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9492.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9497.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是沈榮金副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的一個團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9516.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9528.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9543.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9565.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟軍備局到底是什麼角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9568.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9570.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
中科院的強項是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9577.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9600.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9603.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9606.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區台體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了20幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9625.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9632.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房、廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9653.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9665.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
國家你的任務是什麼告訴我們這樣好委員先跟你報告這個土地是現在這無人機產業園區的土地是屬於中科院的第二個就是這個68億多的預算你原來要做什麼你原來買台體大的廢校的這個園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9672.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9686.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
委員台體大那個廢校園區不是那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟台體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9699.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9701.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9720.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9741.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們台灣現在不是大家所有民間廠商都非常強嗎你中科院有在這一部分有特別強嗎你甚至還有很多的機密的預算是要去花在AI上面都是跟民間去採購耶所以你說你AI的那個任務是你中科院的任務我在這裡再提醒一次中科院當時法人化 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9743.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9764.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
因為中科院有很多必須要為國家做一些科研的項目希望我們與時俱進不管在武器的發展或者對我們防衛力量其實可以有更多的著墨所以花了那麼多錢給中科院結果你的錢可能把技術轉移給其他廠商中科院最重要的我們的強項是飛彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9767.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9787.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展的更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封洞的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封洞欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9794.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9810.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9814.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9842.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是 謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9845.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9858.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
謝謝馬文君委員部長請回休政宣告待會賴世保委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘然後接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9879.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9901.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
區委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9902.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9920.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9925.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9942.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9946.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9971.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9972.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10001.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那呢上一次提出的這幾張齁等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個齁更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10003.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10030.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣所以我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10030.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10050.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
他呢說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是呢這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10051.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10052.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢 不會無法使用 同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10076.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10093.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
在我們加工精煉的過程中如果它凝結了是比較麻煩的是 因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10094.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10117.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非淡燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10118.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10146.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10146.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10147.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10154.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10181.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10182.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10207.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10207.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10225.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10228.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10244.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10247.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10261.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10261.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10284.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
沒有 因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10291.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10319.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10320.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10339.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟你報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測的那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10340.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10360.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這我再拿檢測報告給我那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他初製的時候初製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10368.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10384.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有 是我們跟他要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10387.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10413.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10414.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10430.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不容易水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10444.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10466.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10468.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10483.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次齁上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10485.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10490.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
話和物放在裡面因為從美國過來所以為了不要讓它結塊額外添加的話和物而在我們國內採購過濾酸胺的時候是不必添加這種話和物的那他放了這個也沒有爆炸的問題你也非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10502.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10530.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10531.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10535.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10550.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10576.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
好那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10579.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10586.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法對對對明方法有哪八項 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10592.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10600.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
因為我時間也不太夠了我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形你要對空監視報告敵機的動向還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品比如說可能子彈等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10616.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10619.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10628.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10654.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎?他是規範所有的民防團隊以民防總隊為主嗎?並不是學生嗎?那學生有沒有被包含在裡面?沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面?學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢?他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10655.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10669.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
根據民法法規範在教育訓練當中要如何自救互救的訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生編組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10670.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10686.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告如同委員所說您慢慢施行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10687.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10695.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
但是他除了民防法適應系統他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指責是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10709.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10716.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對 這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對 他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對 就是幫忙報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10737.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10740.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10761.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10763.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪一些項目? |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10775.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10791.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10792.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10807.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對它有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作它是比較勤務性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10808.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10809.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
對,這五個看起來都是情務性 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10828.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10843.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以呢我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10843.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10844.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
另外我最後一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10858.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10858.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10884.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10887.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
有請國防部的顧部長如果問到相關的問題﹖其他長官可以來幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10912.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10916.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
國防部長,今天講無人機,請問你知不知道無人機有兩種,一個叫有線,一個無線,你知道嗎?有線,無線,我的理解是 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10935.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10940.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
有限無限來有限的無人機烏克蘭坐的一公里大陸坐的十公里金門馬祖最近不到十公里所以干擾槍啊不好了干擾槍是打無限的對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10963.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10964.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
報告委員沒有錯在俄烏戰場上面的確也發現到俄羅斯使用了這個有限的無人機但是基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10983.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11004.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
在運用上面有限無限它還是有它的一些優缺點比如說有限的那它的這個限控它基本上可能它的滯空時間可以長達數小時那但是相對的它的有限的高度和距離對它也產生一個限制那無限的部分基本上我們對它來說沒有錯干擾可能就是所謂的硬殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11009.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11010.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11035.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11050.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
無限的我們用石頭丟不是?我們現在已經完成了相關的應處程序也規劃建制反制系統那用槍打要訓練嘛有沒有非法訓練你告訴我各兵種有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11051.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11059.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
陸軍報告,飛靶目前在我們的訓練項目沒有啦,我查過就沒有了欸,奇怪咧,如果它飛過來是有限的你怎麼樣,你不能用干擾槍,干擾槍是無限的你只能用射靶,用槍來打結果沒有訓練,還是要怎樣啊啊,就中共的無人機來了,做得來喔大家看這樣,眼睛看這樣就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11081.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11108.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是這樣子喔?長官你要回答一下請問你是哪一位?我是陸軍參謀長陳建義陸軍參謀長?跟委員報告在平時跟暫時的考慮還是有所區別平時我們要考慮它設計和相關背景的安全因素可是那這個時候當然限制會比較多可是如果在暫時的話它是一個對我有敵意進行的無人機我們的各項的防空武器和地面的火炮就可以形成火炮 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11109.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11111.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
國防部相關的兵種沒有對非法做訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11128.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11133.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以對於中共的有限無人機等於是束手無策 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11160.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11179.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
阿你可以設幾公里嗎?你告訴我可以設幾公里?散彈可以設幾公里?散彈就是因為它的距離有限可以設幾公里?高度阿?大概100公尺左右100公尺阿它無人機飛那麼低阿?因為有限的話它的高度真的高不了大概一般可以到多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11180.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11195.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
解放軍的這個飛10公里他能夠到多少高度我真的沒有超過一百啦你去看嘛一百公尺很短的一百公尺很短的所以跟委員報告我們操場一個操場就250啦所以跟委員報告看得到 現在看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11198.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11199.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
請教部長啦 這個部長可以拍板啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11213.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11239.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
你要不要下令我們陸軍或者什麼軍都好所有的兵種要做非法訓練可以嗎?他們現在都沒有欸你不是部長我簽名部長上禮拜一的展示的時候上禮拜一委員會的考察的時候因為委員沒有參加上禮拜一委員會的考察的時候我們就已經把那個涉及測試的影片跟參與考察的委員都播放過了那是非常有效的涉及 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11240.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11248.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
不是啦,你說我回答你沒有回答我問題,所以你不是部長啊來,部長回答一下你要不要下令做我們的非法訓練啊,可不可以啊不然怎麼辦呢委員的指教我會下去跟各聯產來這個研議一下,好不好有這麼困難嗎來,我們來看齁,來這個,我們說我們的艦翔反輻射無人機啊,或者攻擊無人機啊好,發展度發展這樣齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11270.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11272.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
美方侵賴然後呢 要貼牌跟我們要設計圖貼牌啊 輸出美方貼我們的麥顧立雄部長說 樂見其成欸 你們說個本頂的吼我們的建想這麼棒可以讓美方貼我們的牌 就貼他的牌啦吼會不會到時候用麥回來給我們吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11293.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11300.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
現在的合作案裡面沒有這樣子的規劃目前的合作案目前正在進行的合作案他有貼牌不是嗎還沒有到這個程度我們的顧部長說樂見其成我們的消息這樣講我們期待可以樂見其成他們貼牌我們期待可以往這個方向發展我們期待可以往這個方向樂見美國貼他的牌用我們的東西是不是部長你說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11317.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11332.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我沒有特定哪一個無人機我現在只是在說我們希望達成一個國際供應鏈裡面的一環我想主要是在做產業分工這樣的一個說明不是在特別的指定哪一個項目或哪一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11333.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11344.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為你那時候講這個話是針對無人機因為後來這個標題就一直在拉到這個地方去那我講話的一個重點應該是在說我們要進入這個美國為主導的這個國際供應鏈裡面的一環好 這個我替你補充啦你是律師比較精準你是不是講的就是針對非紅色供應鏈我們join進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11362.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11367.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
歡迎美國拿我們的所有的軍工我們的中科院發展出來的東西歡迎美國推牌這樣講對吧?我這樣講對吧?可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11375.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11380.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
委員不是說歡迎他貼牌是我們希望能夠在這個國防供應鏈我們希望在這個國防供應鏈裡面扮演相當的角色然後彼此結財彼此結財 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11392.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11402.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我不認為是這樣的一個講法我們成為供應鏈裡面的一環然後我們有相關的強項那成為這個供應鏈裡面的一環你知道供應鏈的意思嗎Value chain啊這個supply chain啊這裡面就我做製造我做設計Marketing美國來做他貼牌他去賣這個有什麼好啊這個東西有什麼不對呢從企業的經營角度來講OK啊有什麼不好呢這有什麼不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11422.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11429.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我沒有辦法很清楚的理解您講的所謂貼牌這兩個字因為媒體在用貼牌這兩個字貼牌就是那我講具體一點我們台灣的中科院設計製造包括研發設計研發製造美國做Marketing這樣可以嗎做行銷這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11445.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11449.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
可以,可以嘛,行銷裡面就包括貼牌,貼牌是比較清醒的道理,就是brand,brand,branding,品牌,品牌掛一個,到時候沒等於USA喔,裡面東西我們的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11463.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11476.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
只是我是懷疑啦齁我不知道來來來中科院長回答一下我們的意思應該是我們可以擔任產品的供應商原件供應商或者是我們來共同開發或者我們被授權等等這些都是相關的可能的機會嘛請問請問無人機最關鍵的技術是什麼來院長講這個問題內無人機最關鍵的技術對我來講的話對 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11488.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11515.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
就是他第一個他要能完全無人把人力的操縱降到最低第二個逆中和噪音降低照相那個最重要不是嗎這個是選配這個是選配這個我們可以自己做嗎我們技術是不是成熟的我們今天早上有答詢過我現在只要把某一個技術等到那個機器到了我們克服以後的確我們是有這個機會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11516.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11517.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
接下來我們請林益君召委上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11548.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11551.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
請國防部部長是 林委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11559.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11577.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
部長你知道國防部所屬的軍備局預計要在114年度編列一筆高達68億5900萬的預算聽說這個未來要準備捐給中科院要在嘉義縣民雄蓋一個所謂推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發計劃對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11580.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11609.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那68我了解是公共預算編列不是我們是國安會那個因為行政院核定那等一下等一下因為時間時間會不夠那我先請問一下我就問什麼你們就答什麼就好了那請問部長那未來這一個無人機產業園區除了一部分是中科院自己要當作無人機的生產基地之外還有沒有其他功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11611.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11635.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
現在有分成西側跟東側那這個詳細的部分是不是請中院簡單回答研發生產製造都在這裡面它就是一個產業的生態系那所以照這樣看來的話這一個園區的目的就是要把軍用無人機的產業鏈從上游下游全部都集中在一起形成一個產業的聚落對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11636.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11641.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
不只是軍用無人機是應該是所有的無人機全部都會在那個地方對不對好那問題來了那部長那你有沒有覺得說把雞蛋同樣都放在一個籃子裡面的問題呢因為我現在擔心的就是說像我們現在跟對岸中共這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11652.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11670.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
知道我們台灣有一個那麼重要那麼跟國家安全國防自主有關的產業都聚集在那個地方了然後我擔心的是萬一兩岸真的要開戰了發生了事情時候的時候那中國是不是就只要往民雄航太曁無人機產業園區那邊丟幾顆飛彈只要打中一發那我們台灣的無人機的產能恐怕真的不知道要下降多少了那部長你不會擔心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11680.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11709.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
委員這個整個園區總共是50幾公頃那當然我們在就剛剛也有委員質詢我們在設計規劃和施工的時候我們會考慮到未來它的整體防空的部分好啦沒關係啦114年的預算反正還沒審嘛未來我們還是有時間一起來慢慢的共同來思考這個問題總之本席理解未來在這一個民雄航太曁無人機的產業園區是不是就是會像一個無人機版的科技園區呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11711.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11713.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
就是說我現在的問題就是推動產業的發展這個職責不是應該是經濟部的事情嗎?怎麼會叫國防部來做呢?怎麼會叫中科院來負責推動產業發展的開發案呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11727.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11748.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我想這個部分當然主要是說因為中科院有西側跟東側兩塊基地那西側的基地部分當然就現在的規劃當然就是說由中科院來做這個開發的一個工作那我想我們後續的部分也會成立一個專案編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11749.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11755.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那我請問部長這個是真的是你們國防部跟中科院出於自願的嗎是真的是你們想要開發的計畫嗎還是因為負責產業開發還有推動產業發展的經濟部和國安會沒有錢所以逼我們有錢的國防部來當爐主啊亦要你們國防部吞下去來編的這個預算呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11769.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11774.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
委員這個預算您可能有一點誤會它是從行政院的公共建設預算專案撥出來給國防部來執行的這就是我後面要問的問題就是我認為這肯定是行政院的陰謀嘛它為了要把這個協助民間的推動無人機的產業發展的目的冠上了打造國防自主的字眼然後讓我們國防部可以吞下這一筆的預算企圖來模糊整個焦點 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11795.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11811.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那大家不敢隨便動這筆預算啊不然我們就會被批評說是反對國防自主然後被扣上親中的大帽子啊所以因為我覺得很奇怪就是中科院明明就是負責研發的嘛怎麼會叫你們去發展一個管理的這種產業園區呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11813.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11813.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
管理科學園區不是就是國科會的事情嗎?管理產業園區不是就是經濟部的業務執掌嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11828.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11846.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
但是中科院在這個部分包括規劃設置低速轟動這些檢測儀器設備還有這個無人機的AI模擬及算力中心它有它的專業所以在這個部分可以協助廠商在進行這些有關這個無人機這個一些工性能的設計測試這些還有這些開發的這個部分我們可以來協助來進行這樣的一個驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11855.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11878.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以中科院在這個部分有這個樣子的一個強項那當然前面的委員也提到了說中科院可能在管理的經驗上面會有所缺乏那這個部分我們會跟國科會有管理園區的這個經驗的人來做經驗交流那也招募這個部分的人才那這樣子雙方面結合我想會快速的來落實我們無人機自主生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11879.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11902.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
的一個政策或者甚至打入國際供應鏈裡面一環這樣子的一個目標這樣問題也就來了中科院你如果有人力把廠房都蓋好那請問部長你覺得中科院他們有人力和多餘的人力再去營運營運這個民雄無人機嗎一定沒有嗎到最後是不是會VOT呢那你們會覺得到最後你們的方式是不是會用VOT呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11902.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11908.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我想這個另外當然要增加相關的人力然後剛剛也提到他們會另外在成立一個單位這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11912.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11936.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
委員這個跟您報告就是像剛剛有委員會質詢提到的所以我們會向國科會還有經濟部去請教相關的規劃然後後面我們會在117年之前把這個整個管理辦法做出來但是我要跟委員強調一點當時說叫中科院管理這個園區就是要成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位來管理而不是由中科院直接管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11937.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11956.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好 所以我剛才有看你們的內容是民雄西側的基地是經濟部配合嘛 對不對但是這表示你應該還是你們負責營運嘛現在以後未來的負責營運是誰負責啊是經濟部嗎還是你們呢就是成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位但是要由中科院來協助成立這個單位來負責營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11958.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11975.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
另外跟委員報告就是說為什麼會整個這個園區的規劃由中科院來設計那是因為只有中科院有整個無人機產線的規劃設計和實際建造的能力所以我們可以提供給各廠商怎麼去鋪陳他產線的這樣的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11978.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11978.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
委員在108年中科院 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11998.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12018.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
向國防部成構了就有長波用的這一塊營地的時候當時原本就準備要來發展航太的相關產業那後來我們也準備把我們的整個無人機的部分也建設在這一塊區域只是因為我們自己本身的預算不夠所以東側中科院 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12019.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12033.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
奉董事會同意只投入了11.1億那西側部分空在那所以為了加速整個園區的建置行政院才會在原本的國防預算額度之外另外用公共建設預算去增付68億多來協助西側的開發 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12037.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12061.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好啦就不為難你們了現在就是還有一個問題就是產業政策要促進發展當然這個是利益良善啦但是交給中科院你們這是研發單位嘛所以萬一你們以後委外經營我比較擔心的是萬一園區有事情的時候那以後萬一發生了一些事情請問這個我們立委要怎麼監督啊政府要怎麼追究責任啊這個你們有想到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12064.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12086.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
你們有做這樣的規劃嗎?就是說萬一這個園區以後有事情,廠房蓋完啊,如果委外經營啊,還是說是你們是誰要負責這個事情呢?就是說以後我們立委要怎麼監督你們呢?還有政府要怎麼追究這些責任呢?委員您剛剛也知道說我們三個月之內會提供一部未來管理的初步規劃報告嘛,對不對?所以三個月內會嗎?我也會把您剛剛的問題列到這個規劃報告裡面,因為我之前也還沒想。抱歉。那你就三個月內齁,OK,好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12094.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12094.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
要對漢翔計法 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12119.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12125.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
有嘛那這個是國防部的委託案那國防部對中科院會不會有罰款呢?也會有那我想請教一下是國防部罰中科院的錢比較多還是中科院罰漢祥的錢比較多呢?第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12138.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12160.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我們罰漢祥現在漢祥也會很努力的找各種理由如果他能夠拿到美國原廠給他的就是不可抗力因素的證明的話其實按合約我們就罰不到他那第二個就是國防部就是空軍委託我們做這個案子空軍最後會罰我多少我現在也不能說誰多會誰少我真的不太清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12161.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12184.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
如果是漢祥要繳的罰款比中科院的多那可能是代表你們中科院監照不力啊所以我現在還有一個問題就是說部長你前陣子漢祥不是有一個員工嗎然後在IG上面公開我們ADF和AJT的敏感的資料然後被法辦嘛那這個案子漢祥也是因為違反合約的保密的條款被中科院罰款100萬那這個罰款中科院會不會繳回國防部呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12188.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12194.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
包括不會因為按照設置條例因為我是合約甲方所以按照合約的話他的罰款是繳給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12195.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12218.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那就奇怪了 上面兩個高校的案子都是高校級的合約嘛 漢翔延遲交機給中科院 中科院要依照合約交款給國防部嘛 對不對但是漢翔涉及洩漏機密 但是中科院卻不用交款給國防部 那不會很奇怪嗎剛剛中科院講的應該是兩個 一個是他中科院跟漢翔的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12219.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12226.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
這個是他對因為洩密的就是只有中科院嘛到中科院而已對不對中科院是不可能再繳回國防部的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12228.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12253.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
還有漢祥給我的延遲交機的罰款也是在中科院對 也是沒有繳回國防部是嗎是 對 但是空軍會針對但是是國防部付錢的啊為什麼什麼為什麼都是不會繳回現在就更奇怪我先來問一個機密機密外洩好了機密外洩國防部是建案的受影響人欸但是受害者是國防部欸但中科院你只是一個間接的然後你就變成受益人了這樣會不會覺得怪怪的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12255.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12269.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
委員這不是受益人的部分因為在整個合約是我跟漢祥的合約關係跟國防部無關國防部跟我的關係是委制給我我再把委制的部分一部分是我的一部分是漢祥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12270.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12271.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
主席我再一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12287.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12292.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
再一分鐘這樣那個部長我們還記得兩個禮拜之前那個雷神的預收款的問題嘛那現在的話就305億的預收款的有退還給我們嘛繳還國庫嘛但是繳還國庫的話就有一些貓膩啊這些錢現在是退到哪裡去呢是退到中央政府退到國防部退到空軍還是退到中科院呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12314.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12332.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我想最後當然是會繳回國庫那相關這個過程當中是先繳回到哪一個這個要跟美方協調但是最後還是會完成結會之後會完成繳回國庫的一個作業所以現在還沒有協調嗎 對不對現在還不知道嘛現在近期之內就會有就會緩緩了 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12336.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12357.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好 那我就暫時先問到這邊等整個看到底是退還到哪裡我們再最後一定是回國庫這已經是確定的一個事情這個我們跟主計總處已經這個完成了現在只是說他有一個流程那最後一定是會回來之後一定是繳回國庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12359.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12365.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好那我在如果是這樣的話繳回國庫的時候那305億裡面有沒有包含美國政府跟我們說的4.4的兩項服務費 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12368.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12369.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12399.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12418.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這個我們可能要了解一下吧我想現在退回我們的這個款項可以跟委員報告的是他退回我們的款項比他原來初報的金額還要高那所以最後退回的金額當然實際等到退回來以後結會以後我們再來做一個跟委員做一個報告所以有沒有包含是4.4%的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12420.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12447.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
沒有現在就是說確定全部都是雷神公司的預售款那這個部分那因為涉及多個國家那全部都是用預售款的方式來退還那這個部分跟委員報告所以都是屬於預售現在外面還有媒體講說什麼互糧一次互糧餅沒有這我們察覺沒有這回事沒有這回事這個可能也要也要闢謠一下沒有這回事沒有沒有什麼因為這13.5億的真的是也是蠻高的OK |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12450.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12450.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
好那就這樣謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12471.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12496.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
因為剛剛有提到說在三個月內中科院要提出那個相關的經營管理的報告我們希望在裡面也把利弊得失還有我們所有的來龍去脈其實也把它提出來好不好因為我想這個工作國防預算很有限的情況之下它應該怎麼樣用到位而且讓大家各施其職如果我們覺得中科院是最好的它好在哪裡應該讓我們全體的委員也知道比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12500.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12505.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這個部分也麻煩可以特別納入謝謝部長這個沒有問題吧好謝謝不好意思我們再再演一下多演一下齁因為我們現在可以先請那個中嘉賓委員這樣上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12534.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12543.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
太熱門了謝謝主席 謝謝部長不好意思我很快那直接部長才上啦那我就直接跟部長請教今天有關於無人機的議題請秀簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12547.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12569.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好部長 那麼我們軍工產業自主需要有完備的供應鏈那產線的建立很重要一點就是取決訂單的市場規模我先用以離岸風機來看離岸風機啊 你看2021我們水壓機組跟塔架2023有包括機艙跟變壓器包括海事工程船到第三階段我們就有齒輪箱等等等這是逐步的你認為這個是國產化的必經過程同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12572.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12593.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
是好那接下來我們看國機國造跟國艦國造一樣國機國造我們永英高加機66架包括電氣啦飛控啦發電啦航電啦這逐步要去移轉到國內那麼國艦國造部分呢比較難的是潛艦載台我們自己做那戰鬥管理系統跟壓力殼等等這些我們都試圖的要由本國廠商來生產請問這是不是我們的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12595.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12618.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
您說戰鬥管理系統不是 我說包括這些除了載台之後我們也希望其他的部分有能力包括壓力殼等等這是我們的目標嗎我們現在當然是希望不管在各方面的這個光制組的自治率能夠提升嗎是的 好那我們來看一下最近我們要進M1A2坦克是不是這樣好 那我們有辦法自己造一輛M1A2嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12621.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12643.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
很困難嘛但是我們看到一個新聞外國網友看到要賣給我們的M1A2居然在國外美國有一個科博文什麼是科博文變形金剛它是一個拖板車有沒有看過這個拖板車你認為我們本國有沒有能力因為戰車60噸的戰車主力戰車它需要一定能量的拖板車這個國內有產製能力嗎?目前沒有沒有能力研發嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12648.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12672.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
有沒有能力言嗎?報告委員目前這個拖運的拖板車我們要進口嗎?我們國家的低板的我們民間的低板車包含它在改正速度還是有的低板車對,低板的可以嗎?現在就有現在就有,能夠承載M1A2主力戰車可以承載M1A2戰車,是的所以目前我們只需要跟美國買戰車不需要跟它連拖板車一起建我們有在這次的向量裡面採購拖板車跟拖戰車國產的?美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12675.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12691.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那我們美國的買了我們國產的以後是不是接續由國產的來接體我是說我們國內自己的民間的運輸公司有這樣的能量所以我們不見得需要再自行來生產我們可以跟他做這個更足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12692.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12713.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
主任好很好來那個部長為什麼會這樣子因為拖板車他除了軍需用途平常也可以使用美國的M911拖車平常他們就用來拖伐木啦台灣當然沒有伐木業啦我要說的就是說我們的軍需產業除了主要的武器裝備之外其他的周邊配備也是一個我們軍需產業力當中一個重要部門您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12716.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12718.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
無人機目前你認為我國全部要自製最困難的是哪個部分無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12739.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12747.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我想因為主要是中國他現在站在全球的這一個市佔率很高對大疆他是有量化他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12749.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12769.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
主要是便宜不是技術難度真的無人機不是高技術難度它只是量產後它的成本最低而無人機是需要大量生產才有優勢的但是其中一個光電頭目前是台灣不是沒有能力研發是因為我們的訂單太少國內廠商他覺得做這個不划算你們乾脆外國自己買請問你所瞭解是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12771.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12780.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
這個部分是是沒有做嗎?這個現在都是由我們自己來做組裝那光念求我們國內有辦法自治嗎?沒有辦法全部自治有沒有能力自治? |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12781.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12800.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
我今天早上有答過類似的問題一年之內我們可以克服是的我現在要說的說不是技術門檻達不到是量產規模不具備我們台灣的廠商很厲害你叫他做樣品給你沒有問題但你叫他生產呢對不起他要做500萬你外面買50萬請問你要跟外面買還是要自己做 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12801.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12823.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
就是這個問題,所以我們的軍需產業要自製呢,其實不是只有考量技術門檻,不是技術門檻達不到,而是市場規模達不到,往下看。以這個舉例,Gogoro,Gogoro難道這些東西,進口的電路板,控制器,馬達,台灣不能做嗎?可以。那為什麼Gogoro這個電動車,我們交通部發現問題,要它百分之百國產,它還需要去中國買這些零配件? |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12825.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12826.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這是電動三輪車?一種電動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12850.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12871.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
其實在展現的就是說我們的軍需配備不是只有武器本體它的載台它的配件其實都是考量在內像這種這樣的一個設備它具備有暫時的二列天后的運載能力也具有平時的都會裡面的商運能力這樣的一個設計台灣能不能做到部長你覺得台灣有沒有能力做出來下一頁下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12873.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12890.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
你認為這樣的電動三輪車我在暗示什麼未來的無人機不是步兵背著無人機上戰場阿他的後勤移動裝配維修充電都需要這樣的一個後勤補給車部長你覺得這樣的一個類似無人機的裝載後勤補給車台灣有沒有能力製作 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12893.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12907.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這個我想再需要進一步了解一下很好那我希望部長的結論就是說軍工產要自主有賴國產廠商投入除了巨數門檻之外市場規模是影響建立產線的重要原因無人機的國產化應該藉由訂單規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12909.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12920.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
同步帶動周邊設備進入於本土產能請國防部在3個月內提出一個評估報告列出以無人機自主化國產化來列明潛力裝備的商品並且建立產線的市場規模部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12924.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12945.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
是我想產業的市場規模在無人機的部分的話我們之前一直有在提到就是希望打入國際的供應鏈是的因為這樣子的話才能夠產有一定的經濟規模效益而且要提前部長不是只有無人機本體整個無人機在戰場上的應用它的周邊的配備也要一併考慮就像你不會只考慮M1A2坦克一樣你會考慮什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12947.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12948.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
先休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12979.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12979.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13115.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13115.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
暫停會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13145.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13158.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13250.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13258.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13285.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13287.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
本集完 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13361.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13367.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們繼續開會下午是由副部長徐衍璞代理備詢那接下來我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩有請副部長請徐副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13395.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13420.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
副部長你要按一下 要不然會不會 副部長 延續了我之前在最終的事情我的國防部去買那個抗彈纖維部要做抗彈背心 國軍弟兄的安全非常重要所以我對於不肖的商人竟然用劣質的中國的布料來做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13422.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13450.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
自國軍弟兄的安全與不顧謀取非法的暴力我非常的痛恨但讓我非常驚訝的事情是我的國防部在處理這個案子的時候啊怠惰鬆懈到一個讓我沒有辦法理解的程度啊我為什麼說怠惰鬆懈到一個我沒有辦法理解的程度啊來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13452.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13481.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這個是延續著之前我質詢的主題我也給國防部的同仁回應的機會大同公司大眾電腦得標了以後結果竟然用中國製的布料偽造MIT爽賺6700萬這是之前早就發生的弊案我那時候就問一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13483.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13511.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
為什麼這些不肖的廠商還沒有停權你們說有啦有停權大眾公司啊停權了拿到0.7億元的大眾公司停權了拿到2.45億元的大同公司竟然沒有停權我在追這件事情的時候啊我就覺得很狐疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13512.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13515.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
這個不肖的廠商為什麼沒有停權是因為他們跟民進黨關係比較好嗎所以不敢停權他嗎是因為他們董事長去幫民進黨的立委助選所以不敢停權他嗎結果你們之前跟媒體說什麼2022年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13537.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13564.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所依照工程會的調解所以沒有刊登政府公告我還特別跑去公共工程委員會問公共工程委員會的主委主委跟我說啊調解是私人關係啊跟停不停權的公共利益一點關係都沒有第一個問題我上次問到現在你們國防部還沒有回我誰給這個媒體假訊息的查出來沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13566.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13569.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
報告委員這個是我請採購室的趙主任先跟您做個回報好嗎來誰給這個媒體假訊息的委員好這是當時我們國防部軍備局給的訊息但是先停一下軍備局的誰給媒體這個假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13585.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13607.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
可以這樣胡說八道報告委員這個可能誤會他上面並沒有講說因為調解而不停權我來先看一下第三點本案依契約辦理交貨職研計法解約沒收履約違約金另依工程會調解未刊登政府採購公報這是不是你們提供的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13609.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13622.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
如果媒體看假訊息阿要鄭重發聲明跟媒體抗議阿2022年發了這個聲明以後國防部一句否認都沒有到我今年開始問的時候說這個訊息不對阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13625.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13647.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
向委員報告其實剛剛委員所講的大眾公司已經停權了他有兩個案子我剛講過的廢話就不要再提了嘛我有質疑大眾的部分嗎但是他現在目前他當時申請調解那調解不成他現在申訴我就問嘛先停一下好不好你要在上面自說自話還是你要回答問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13649.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13664.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
工程會的調解跟停不停權有什麼關係我為了這個事情我還跑去問工程會沒有關係你剛剛上面扯是什麼沒有 調解確實跟停權沒有關係所以我就問嘛當初國防部誰給這個假訊息的不用查嗎可以這樣欺騙國人嗎查出來沒有國防部誰給這個媒體散播假訊息的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13677.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13688.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
查出來沒有副部長要不要查一個禮拜之內查出來明白回報給我誰放假訊息給媒體的為什麼我對這件事情這麼憤怒來副部長請你往下看我一直在想為什麼可以沒有停權結果搞了半天以後什麼搞了半天以後啊是你們要準備要處理停權的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13707.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13736.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
停權的時效早過了停權的時效早過了我在質疑了所以你們在搞什麼東西啊該停權不停權做假動作放假訊息能拖就拖能混就混然後等到說啊我們好像應該要辦停權了發現超過時效了我上面所講的這個歷程副部長請您看一下我這看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13738.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13739.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
超過三年才開始搞這個是在放水嗎這是在放水嗎我是有這個問題這是不是在放水 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13753.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13781.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
委員有關委員所質疑的問題我剛也跟委員報告過了我會在一個禮拜之內把這個案子我們再查清楚再向委員再做一個詳細的一個回覆這個是我第三次質詢這個案子相關的同仁該提供的背景的資訊該做的處理應該都很熟悉了我再給國防部一個禮拜當初到底誰在包屁誰在鬼混混到什麼前一任的部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13783.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13789.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
說這種事情我們絕對無法容忍結果大家就混嘛混超過三年了然後假裝要辦庭權發現說啊超過三年的時間沒有辦法辦庭權太離譜了啦一個禮拜之內書面回覆兩個問題一個誰放假訊息給媒體要負什麼責任第二個為什麼超過三年的時間當初誰在拖延的 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13813.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13817.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
這件事情一定要給全體國人一個交代,可以嗎?沒有問題好,謝謝好,感謝委員謝謝黃國昌委員副部長請回接下來我們請羅志強委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13840.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13841.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
主席有請副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13852.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13868.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
過去中科院曾經一度傳出,完成現有建案後,未來無人機將不再繼續研製,改以對煤產購為主但昨天國防部報告內容指出,將續依需求和預算量產騰雲、瑞淵、紅雀等機型 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13871.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13896.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
可是月初中科院的院長在立法院報告時他才證實說2025年沒有瑞淵二型無人機量產的預算所以中科院已經通知相關下游廠商先停產那以目前為止的話現在這個狀況到底是怎麼樣報告委員我請中科院李院長跟您做一個詳細說明我們報告2025年確實沒有這些量產的預算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13897.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13920.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那我們知道瑞淵二型的設計是為了改善過去海上無人偵察機的電站能力武器的攜帶能力跟通訊能力嘛 對不對還有包含對人力的需求那可是現在所以那現在中科院是就不再有這個計畫是要等到嘉義的無人機園區2026年完成之後才會有新的投入投產計畫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13921.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13942.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
沒有委員這只是一時的預算排擠我想部長上次在答詢的時候也講得很清楚這些無人機都一定會量產那大概什麼時候呢我們當然希望爭取儘快這儘快是什麼時候因為114年的預算已經編列了那所以說可能要到115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13944.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13968.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那目前共艦跟海警船這繞台的頻次越來越多那是要海上徵收無人機的重要性也開始出現那我不知道國防部對於這部分的戰力評估是如何覺得我們目前應對這個狀況我們的準備是什麼報告委員我請那個我們情報次長跟那個作戰次長先請情報次長就是本這部分來向您做個說明無人機的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13972.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13979.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
順便講一下就算我們的無人機還沒量產但是我們的原型機只要國軍有需要我們都會支援各項的任務謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13984.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14003.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
報告委員我是情報次長謝日生先在這邊跟委員做說明我們在聯合勤監政的部分所使用的有關於無人機的部分按照我們長遠的規劃來講的話是從以高低空不同空城不同類型依照我們的作戰需求來做的這個長遠的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14006.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14031.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那我再問一個問題我也看到媒體披露我們顧部長在一場媒體查詢中透露他希望2028年前台灣將採購總計3422架包括微型無人機等6款國產的軍用無人機那這些機型是在我們的中科院現在目前規劃機型的內容在內還是說實質上用目前的計畫狀況是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14034.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14050.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
三千兩百四四架是我們包含陸用型的海用型各有三種那這部分的無人機是由我們民間的廠商來經過我們正式的這個標案來實施的那這三千兩百四通通都已經絕標了所以我們會陸續開始來交機 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14052.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14076.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那我現在要關心就是有關於無人機自治率的問題那不管是要採用中科院自主研發的機型還是民間企業所開發的軍用商規的無人機型那其實自治率這一塊也是我們今天國防部很重要的一個要求那我們如果說今天參考那個烏俄戰場來看的話無人機戰場消耗非常的大對不對我們參照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14078.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14079.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
自由時報2023年不具名的政府官員指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14099.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14124.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
當前國內無人機廠商大部分資本額不大主要是以採購零組件組裝為主那軍用商規無人機開發給民間廠商技術練兵的機會對於無人機關鍵模組的研發跟自主產製有相當注意但後續的陸海軍驗收若合格那國內廠商取得銷售時機才能夠帶動國內無人機產業發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14127.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14150.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
但是有人也就認為說今天實際上我們到底這個所謂的零組件的這個部分那關鍵零組件的部分那如果我們今天的量產的那個規模你們覺得什麼時候能夠達到說今天像假定面對到烏俄戰爭的狀況是情況我們有辦法去因應這個大量龐大的需求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14151.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14179.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個也跟委員簡單的報告就是說有關在俄烏戰爭給我們一個非常好的啟示就是在俄烏戰爭雙方無人機的使用都非常大量損耗量陳如剛才委員所說的每一天的損耗可能都上到千架以上所以有關整個無人機我們把無人機的成本要降低是我們未來努力的一個方向所以包含系統化模組化我們也會參與世界各國有關無人機製造的一個能力技術來做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14180.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14202.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我們中科院是做軍用軍規的無人機我們現在民間做的是軍用商規的無人機剛才跟委員所報告的未來我們3,244架包含陸用型、空用、海用型各有三類型總共是六個類型所以這六個類型這一部分我們在國內的所有廠商當中都是經過我們各軍種邀集所有專家來做一個非常嚴格的測試 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14204.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14214.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
經過測試以後他才可以通過決標所以我們在整個一個審查過程當中對於這整個一個生產能力部分我們是列為一個第一優先的所以有關是副長最後做一個簡單的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14215.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14217.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
實際上我們能不能滿足量產這件事那才是未來如果真的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14244.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14244.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
謝謝羅志強委員那副部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14273.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14273.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14291.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14291.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14308.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14310.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這也是臺灣軍方首度向民間發出的軍用商規無人機的標售案 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14329.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14350.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
那當然從開始到決標歷經了兩年那換句話說我們也預估到2028年的時候3000多架的這個要由民間的軍規無人機進入到我們的部隊服役是不是啊沒有錯就照這個數字會達成成功嗎而且這6型無人機都已經全部都決標了 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14351.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14372.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
對,所以我們也好不容易在這兩年內去完成這樣的事件這樣的事情那但是在中科院為什麼我們在這十來年都是由中科院這邊來研製所以我首先要請教中科院在這十來年的研製當中我們無人機有多少有加入你的部隊當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14374.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14391.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
有嗎目前國軍正在使用的無人機除了剛講的這個正在採購軍用傷灰無人機之外其他大部分都是向中科院採購的這是中科院採購嗎那所以是老祖庫了而且是國家的資產嘛非常的棒那為什麼不續產呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14393.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14422.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
為什麼呢那為什麼明年不要呢為什麼要預算排擠呢這也就是為什麼副部長在這裡部長剛好離開我要問部長我們自己有這麼好的早做晚做都要做為什麼明年不給預算中科院到底犯了什麼錯啊為什麼不給培養了這麼好的人才做出了這樣的成績為什麼不給原因是什麼副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14423.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14448.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
委員剛才我想之前我想顧部長包含詹威斯司長因為現在的我們中科院的院長就是原來的詹威斯司長所以在這個整個一個包含我們國內的採購和軍購這一部分的一個整體預算的支出部分我們有一些相關的一個這個優先的一個順序所以在這個20就是在115、114年的明年這一部分都包含瑞苑二期 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14448.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14449.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
為什麼要未來呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14465.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14489.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
為什麼要未來呢?一個國家如果沒有安全無人機目前已經是自我防備重要的選項嘛,是不是?就陳如你剛才說的,它的耗損也非常的大那到底量夠不夠?你沒有量根本什麼都不用講了國人要的是一個安全,尤其我們自己研發自己可以產 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14491.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14518.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
為什麼預算會如此的安排呢?為什麼?中科院有出什麼錯嗎?中科院沒有錯,中科院研發人員都也盡了很多的心力那為什麼呢?很多的心力,你不讓他繼續,是什麼邏輯啊?報告委員,這些案子都是在持續當中的,也跟委員報告就是有關我們希望後續的這個案,包括日元二期這個整個無人機的這個整個性能,各方面希望能夠再做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14518.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14530.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個就是為什麼預算要從易很重要你把項目去理清楚該當要繼續要讓它繼續為什麼我們自己有能力我們都一直在鼓勵鼓勵國機國造 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14533.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14554.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
為什麼我們一直在鼓勵我們的政府政策也是如此嘛對不對但是我們還要跟世界接軌農耗要趕快進來我們的農耗不是做白做工農耗要進來這樣子我們才能夠自力更生啊那為什麼都點頭為什麼會如此的安排這個政府太奇怪了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14555.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14573.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
你讓中科院的人才,他們會傷心,怎麼會如此呢?副部長趕快去盤點趕快去盤點,趁著現在預算重議,趕快去盤點沒有理由讓他們空一年,剛剛中科院院長講得非常的客氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14574.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14579.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我們希望115年114年就可以繼續為什麼要115年115年可以答應嗎為什麼要中間斷層這個邏輯太奇怪了你們去盤點不能如此的對待國人對不對副部長趕快去盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14597.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14607.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
接下來本席要請問我們的軍規、商規這些無人機我們也要請教也就是我們的作戰規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14609.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14627.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
你的無人機的作戰規劃你的操作手冊你要怎麼樣培訓跟訓練還有他們訓練的一個頻率因為軍用三規無人機使用它呢受期五年內五年之後你怎麼處理請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14629.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14645.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
跟委員報告有關無人機的整體的訓練都在我們聯合作戰需求的發展過程當中都列為一個非常重要的要件我特別跟委員報告我們陸軍在7月1號在我們嘉義中莊就成立了第一所無人機訓練中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14647.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14654.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
對 那我們要成立無人機訓練中心是配合我們的裝備的這個獲得因為我們從明年開始各項無人機會陸續的這個協調所以包含這個整個人員的編制 人員的訓練 裝備還有包含準則的這個編寫還有人員的訓練現在都已經積極在陸力的推動當中嘛這個非常重要 這就是本席啊是 我們已經在做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14666.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14695.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
我們有的這個基地我們要怎麼樣去讓它產出產出之後執行者他所有的訓練頻率他整個的操作手冊訓練這是非常的重要那你們現在在盤點很積極很積極所以如果有機會我們也如果有機會的話也歡迎委員有機會啊給我們再做一個指導那就剛剛本席所說的受期五年之後呢你後續怎麼處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14696.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14705.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個跟委員報告所有的武器裝備都有全受期管理的一個相關的一個計畫對所以說對於對所以除了我們在建案投資之後除了這個裝備後續的裝備後期的維修之外是我們會也會投入相關的一個這個周圍費啊讓這個整個裝備能夠延續下去他不是受期過了以後這個裝備就不管了 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14719.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14741.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
這要講清楚,對,這個非常之重要,因為都是人民的納稅錢當然你五年之後溯起到,你往後要怎麼去處置,這個非常重要怎麼去訓練,怎麼去委管,這些非常重要所以希望你們在這個部分呢,怎麼樣的培訓,怎麼樣的培養,他的訓練頻率我想這個濃厚是比什麼都還重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14742.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14743.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
接下來本席再請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14759.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14782.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
21號我們公布的9.88億的第三次招標公告因為在兩次前通通沒有人第三次你們再公告了也就無人機的反制系統那在這樣的一個情況之下這些反制系統要部署在我們非常重要的國防的防衛要地因為人民希望要能夠安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14783.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14808.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那所以在這樣子反制的150公斤以下的一二級的無人機呢他要具備哪些呢他必須要具備被動的監測他要主動的去搜索還有一個電子反制的能量的能力那他又要要求也就是必須要易於操作是不是啊要要求易於操作還有跟干擾牆 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14810.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14831.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
清兵器這些都必須要有無人機的一個反制能力所以本期要請教副部長我們目前投票的廠商產品跟軍方的要求有沒有落差有沒有吻合在你第三次公告因為一二次沒有有人會怕你會不會把項目沒有那麼吻合 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14834.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14857.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
在陸軍參謀黨沒有報告之前我先跟委員報告反制無人機系統對我們來講是非常重要的一個系統所以我們在訂立反制無人機系統的時候對於它這個規格性能功性能部分做了嚴格的界定那為了讓這個整個無人機的反制系統能夠有效在戰場上運用所以我們還訂立了相關的評審委員我們邀請了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14858.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14861.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
請問我們的標準是不是依照您所說的這一些的標準在執行之? |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14881.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14907.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
我跟委員報告標準從來沒有改變過標準沒有改變過我們也希望能夠去完成但是我們在預算的執行方面你剩下一年一個月因為延宕下來一年一個月在這樣的情況之下如果就算能夠如期的決標那本市要請教一個重點會不會影響到你整個裝備交付部隊的期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14909.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14923.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
跟委員報告有關在這個整個有關跟委員報告有關預算這一部分我也特別在之前我也找我們採購室都去研究過了因為這個無人機反制系統是國內啊這個第一次啦我們來做一個產制我們當然要給他時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14925.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14925.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
本席要請問副部長的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14951.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14962.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
你會不會影響到你的裝備交付的期程如果會影響到你國防部是不是有預計要怎麼做的配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14964.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14979.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我們這部分會再做一個整體的考量當然我們還是希望這些參與投標的廠商能夠繼續努力啊他們也真的很努力啊部部長 這個不是大家努力而是我們實質上面對的這個問題你已經延宕了你原本的預算期程你有你的KPI的指標你的裝備期程已經慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14987.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14993.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那你國防部當然大家趕快去努力那你國防部這邊有什麼配套來協助啊這才是人民要聽的啊我才不會緊張啊原本你告訴我你可以怎麼樣保護我現在你騎乘慢了你保護不了我沒有這些裝備了那你還可以怎麼樣有相關的配套來協助啊本席要問的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15009.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15037.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
有關其他這個細部的配套的方案,因為現在還在案子招標當中,我這邊不適合來跟你再做進一步的報告但我們回去研究完以後,我們再容我們到委員辦公室再跟你再做詳細的說明這個不是不適合,這也沒有什麼秘密本席再給你一個功課,也就是我們鼓勵希望能夠得標完成但是即使到這個時間得標完成,你的裝備設置已經延大 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15037.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15039.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
林俊憲委員不在接下來我們請王宏威委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15073.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15077.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
主席、徐副部長、陸軍司令部參謀長、王委員延續楊瓊英委員所質詢的題目,無人機反制系統是 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15094.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15123.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
部長顧部長他特別講今年度一個優先採購的項目但是現在招標作業並不順利如同剛才楊瓊英委員所講的因為前兩次一次因為流標只有一家第二次因為兩家的最後的驗證的結果通通不合格也流標所以現在第三次的招標作業但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15125.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15150.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
這個為什麼會一再的流標啊?支部部長還是參謀長來回答一下這個整個一個平衡過程我看採購室吧 國防採購室來做的吧來 國防採購室來向委員做個說明趕快喔 時間有限喔各位委員報告 這個他主要第一次流標是因為未達三家我剛剛講了嗎第二次流標是 第二次廢標是因為廠商交了樣機沒有經過陸軍的這個POC的驗證都不合格 不合格 是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15153.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15157.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那為什麼會這樣的狀況事實上在我們這個9億8963萬這個這麼大型的標案的過程裡面包含媒體都有一再的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15169.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15196.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
比如說說你們呢接受接受這兩套未完成整合的無人機反制系統因為他沒有完成整合然後你看到最後似乎是在為廠商鋪路果不其然最後因為你開出的規格只有一家來做投標所以我剛講就一家嘛最後就留標了 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15198.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15225.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
一家流包沒有關係等第二次等第二次之後沒想到突然殺出個陳曉金來了因為剛才副部長也講回答楊瓊英委員說我們從頭沒有改沒有改但是你們中間有改你們中間改了公告招標作業是把他的軍事裝備的營業稅讓他免稅那造成了大家覺得可能有利可圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15227.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15252.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
結果跑出一個陳曉金因為如果第二次還是那個似乎在為魔廠商在部落的那個廠商來一家就解決了嘛第二次就解決了沒想到第二次跑來了一個陳曉金跑來跟你一起投標那其結果那投標大家都一起來嘛一起這個來做測試兩個都不合格所以通通又變廢標嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15254.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15273.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以我要講的是這個高達將近10億的案子這中間包含媒體都一直在做隱喻甚至直接講啦直接點出說看起來應該從第1次到第2次甚至到第3次大家都看好或者認為應該那家創未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15277.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15303.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
會繼續的來投標第一次就只有一個創未來嘛第二次創未來又來了只是我剛剛講殺出了另外一家公司跑過來投標那所以這個規格真的你們用最高標準嗎符合美國的標準嗎這樣讓外界認為是量身定做的一個標案其結果就是反反覆覆從7月開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15305.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15327.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
進入第一次招標程序現在看起來今年底能不能完成能不能達到你們顧立雄部長他所設定的目標看起來都有都有很大的變數所以為什麼在媒體或者外界都認為有特定廠商鋪路而造成了一直延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15329.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15336.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
所以副部長能回答嗎還是參謀長回答我是陸軍參謀長向委員報告第一個有關於所謂報導有為廠商鋪路或是量身訂做這個絕對不是事實這第一點那我為什麼這樣講因為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15349.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15365.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
他在整個POC的測試他是由所謂的第三方公正還有民間的學者剛剛副部長報告了他包含到相關的航電資訊電子這個是第二個我要報告的第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15367.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15389.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
因為他的測試他是在一套標準但是單獨來實施兩家廠商他在不同天來實施但是共同的監測全程錄影而且這個如果說為他鋪路的話事實上他也是不合格的單位那個蔡部長我必須要你答非所問啊因為我剛剛講你們規格就綁在那裡了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15391.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15399.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
這個規格是依照我們的自然需求來訂定的你規格像無人機人家美國比我們先進吧這反制性我們先進我們為什麼沒有採取人家美國的標準呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15403.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15423.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我們自己找一家特定廠商弄出來的一個規格對不對自己最後又沒有整合成功我們並不是用這家特定廠商的規格就是大家都認為說被這個特定廠商所這個他一定會來投標我們可以拭目以待嘛第3次11月嘛這家廠商會不會出現嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15427.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15446.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
這家廠商會不會出現因為他沒有停權這是他投標的自由但是我代表其他的廠商沒有比他優的規格這個第二次的這個突然出現了一個陳咬金就不在你們的劇情之內嘛本來劇情是寫這樣子怎麼跑出一家所以我在這邊特別質詢的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15451.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15468.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
無人機反制系統之重要也是你們國防部視為優先的採購項目但是請不要因為特殊的原因特殊的人事的關心我聽到的更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15470.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15483.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
直接說啦我們最近不是還有什麼某某什麼立委啊連那個不那個什麼根本不合格的人都硬塞到某些單位人事的關心採購的關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15486.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15502.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
所以我在這邊公開直接說我們支持這個金額非常龐大我們也認為應該優先要去做建制尤其我們在離島的部分更需要但是不要因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15503.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15524.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
要為特殊廠商量身訂做不要因為要向特殊的人士來做交代而使得我們這個標案一再的延宕其結果是我們大家一起付代價這是我今天在這邊苦口婆心好不好所以也請當然今天部長他 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15525.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15525.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
副部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15548.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15555.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在接下來我們請黃婕委員上台質詢黃委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15575.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15603.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好 副部長好今天傳出一個消息我先在這邊請教你喔就是新市局有據說有最近破獲了一個在宮廟跟幫派他們吸收現役跟退役的軍人然後請他們拿著五星旗來拍攝投降影片以及請他們洩漏軍情不知道我們國防部這邊有沒有掌握是 報告委員我這部分我請鎮安局陳局長來跟您做詳細的說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15606.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15612.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
委員好這個案子是我們官兵陸續檢舉還有國安通報然後我們通報國安局統合相關的國安單位來共同偵辦那這個剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15622.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15626.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
行事局那邊還有高檢署也都有發布新聞那這個部分呢我們因為還在司法偵辦當中對於案情我們就不多做敘述好那其實針對新聞的內容也提到了就如我剛剛說的包括現役軍人退役軍人全部都有在這一次的這個案件當中然後據這個新聞內容是指出他們每個人以賤計酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15648.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15649.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
報告委員我們對於官兵利益薰心 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15672.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15674.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
然後背叛國家的行為我們嚴厲的譴責那對於後續我們會持續的加強保防教育跟愛國教育那近年來我們破獲的這個共諜案有86%到87%都是我們官兵檢舉所以我們在保防教育的部分已經有成效那後續我們會持續加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15696.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15719.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
好 謝謝局長回覆在這邊還是再次提醒因為這樣的滲透行為滋事體大那我也希望說接下來的保防機制除了說加強教育之外是不是還有其他的方式我們應該更強力嚴格大家一起來做更強的防範好不好因為看到這樣的新聞其實會讓人很失望啦大家對於我們國軍的信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15720.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15736.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
所以跟委員報告我們對於這些違反國外案件還有包含國家忠誠的問題對於國軍來講是絕對不容許我想剛才偵探局陳局長也跟委員做了一個詳細的說明對於這些涉有犯行的這些官兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15736.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15754.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們一定是依法就辦 絕對不會寬重那剛才委員所提到除了我們要加強我們的保防教育之外 包含我們法律司我們對於整個法紀的維護 還有對於法律的一個宣導案例的宣導 我們都會持續的進行我想這件事情也給我們一個非常好的借鏡 感謝委員指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15756.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15783.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好 謝謝副部長的補充那這個接下來拜託大家一起來防範那再來我想要請教的是因為其實前兩天日本的NHK其實有發布一個紀錄片就是針對這個安巡公司我不知道說我們國防部裡面有沒有去看了一下這個相關的內容其實裡面有提到說這個追蹤中國洩漏的文件涉及20幾個國家其中台灣就一定是非常重要他們要鎖定的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15784.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15812.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那這個其實裡面他也提到非常具體這個安巡公司做什麼呢他針對台灣把台灣的一些關鍵的基礎設施包括我們公路啊然後一些地形然後路線全部都把資料整理起來然後提供給中國的公安部門以及解放軍的部門那我不知道說我們國防部現在有沒有掌握到這一些相關的資訊洩漏到什麼程度有沒有是非公開資訊但是已經被掌握的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15812.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15813.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
國軍平常只有設置治安防護安管理中心24小時監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15826.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15842.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那如果遇到異常的情況的話我們都會適時的通報跟反映那我們市裡面每年也會針對我們各單位所以像是安巡公司這樣子的行為是沒有發現我們檢視過之後沒有這樣任何的惡意行為跟這個跟還有駭客的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15843.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15865.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好,謝謝次長的說明,我在這邊是想要提醒啦,雖然可能他們現在整理的都還是一些公開的資訊,包括一些他們其實裡面有具體的提到喔,就是台灣的公路、地形、橋樑、隧道的位置都已經在他們整理給中國的公安部門,都已經整理好了,然後這也是他們現在重點要網路攻擊的對象。 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15866.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15894.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那除了接下來當然你們隨時都在監控這個是必要的那其實在美國的跨黨派的智庫的主席他也有示警說這些都是對他們來說除了這些是必要的之外接下來他們的意圖很明顯嘛就是在未來有可能要嘗試在佔領台灣或是任何軍事行動的時候他們可以精準的調動裝甲的部隊以及兵力那我相信這個都是我們在這一次的NHK的這個紀錄片裡面我們必須要示警而且必須要加強防範的 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15896.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15917.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那再來當然因為其實現在中共對於這個相關從這一次的這個事件就可以看得出來他們的資訊戰這10年來的演練已經到一個程度包括說跟這一些他們自己的資訊公司合作然後進行這些20幾個國家的網路的攻擊以及監控那我不知道說國防部在這方面有沒有任何的防範以及接下來的加強呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15921.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15941.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
國防部本來就已經納入了行政院的這個國家資通安全的匯報裡面那如果發生任何的資安通報我們事實上會跟這個速發部裡面的這個國家電腦緊急應變中心回報那各部會之間都可以互相通聯然後一起共同防守 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15941.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15969.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
好 謝謝次長說明我在這邊是想要提醒啦因為現在錯假訊息的應對其實對很多台灣人來說這個都是非常迫切的那我現在認為政府做的其實還不太夠怎麼說呢因為包括前陣子有一個民防法被造謠然後說什麼總統下令16歲學生要造冊上戰場這件事情很明顯就是一個錯假訊息但是我們應對的方式就只是在教育部的網站上面說這是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15970.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15992.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那你認為這樣的應對是夠的嗎?所以其實像剛剛次長說的這個是一個必須要跨部會大家一起來整合的東西那面對資訊戰我希望能做的是國防部竟然是一個政戰最高單位那我希望接下來要協助各部會包括你看連教育部都會被攻擊不管是樹發部甚至到我們各個農業部都有可能有錯假訊息的被攻擊的樣態那你們應該要去統和 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15996.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15996.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
謝謝黃婕委員副部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16028.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16039.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
鄭正前 鄭正前 鄭正前委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16057.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16086.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
侯孟楷侯孟楷侯孟楷委員不在已登記質詢委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢為有答覆的部分要求補充資料者亦請相關單位與書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束上會 |
| IVOD_ID |
16208 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16208 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-8 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-24T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-24T12:59:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |