| IVOD_ID |
16201 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16201 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024102160 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-23T15:59:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-23T18:14:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:14:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea910ea1e62573b11e4e3d664a58f780376059d4d42a7fce21a7c7c900012d9b435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-23T16:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、委員傅崐萁等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案。二、委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:59:59 - 18:14:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
80.02 |
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81.033 |
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法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1801.991 |
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1824.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好,現在時間四點半吼,那我們今天進行開始協商。今天我們協商的主題吼,我先跟大家請安一下。那個我們的行政部門是我們劉思芳部長,還有我們中選會的陳副主委,陳副主委的大名我突然忘記了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1824.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1827.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
國民黨團徐一貞、民眾黨團麥一貞、民進黨團吳士堯幹事長、蔡宇儀書記長、王美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1845.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1868.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那還有各位媒體記者們大家好我們今天的協商的主題是針對我們本院委員傅昆齊等16人還有許宇甄委員等20人分別擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案那我們召集這個來黨團的一個協商我們先介紹我們今天列席的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1872.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1875.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
內政部部長劉世芳中選會陳朝健副主委其他請參考列席名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1902.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1921.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好我們沈伯陽委員也到場還有張雅玲張雅玲的張啊工廠張抱歉工廠張張雅玲委員好來好那我們就進入今天的這個協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1926.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1955.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那我們本次協商的主題我剛才提過就是傅崐萁委員等16人以及許宇甄委員等20人分別擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案那麼經第一會期第二十二次會議決定進覆二讀並按交付黨團協商這次本法案的內容那我想我們就先請國民黨的這個提案的代表許宇甄委員做提案的說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1956.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1957.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
先進行說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1965.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1993.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席還有各位列席的各位官員還有各位委員大家好我想這一次針對這個選罷法的這個修正案主要是因為在這個選罷法的這個過程中我們發覺很多的這個連署有一些亂象包括一些錯假連署、超明測連署或者是死亡連署這些都有這個我們發覺很多這樣的問題甚至很多都是筆跡相同可是礙於現在的選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1994.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1994.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
委員許甄等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2011.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2012.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
罷免法部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2031.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2036.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案第12條規定公投聯署要提供身份證的正反面引本讓我們的這個理由是為了要防止虛偽聯署的情勢那也避免破壞公民投票的一個公正性 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2058.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2083.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
希望大家都能關注有關的相關問題以上,謝謝我想我們提案的委員講完之後我們先請行政部門做事實的一個答覆然後再請各黨表示意見我想今天又有委員到場王國威委員我們還有今天列席的還有我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2085.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2103.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
法務部參事廖江憲、司法院民事廳劉素如、劉法官針對法條修正,請內政部劉司芳部長表達看法。還是要等各黨? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2112.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2134.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
委員先講好了再請行政部門來做意見的表示請吳思瑤幹事長謝謝今天召開主持協商的林思明委員我想今天來召開這個協商其實就是回歸了應當有的程序的正義我們赫然發現選罷法上個會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2137.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2166.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
原始的一個提案是許宇甄委員的提案那個時候有涉及門檻的提高那後來兩次在委員會的審查都沒有辦法實質審查上個會期的7月份發生了這個委員這個會議是臨時換的一些我認為在台灣國會的這個史上都創下非常糟的惡例所以以至於那一次的選罷法應當是在委員會審查但是委員會沒有辦法審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2169.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2186.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
徐委員的案子撤了,現在是新的案子,現在是由副官席委員的案子跟徐委員是新版的提案,然後在院會是用近乎二讀的方式,也就是近乎二讀,那就內政委員會就沒有審查,直接到黨團協商的這一個程序。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2189.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2217.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那上一周在協商總預算的時候我們赫然發現居然韓國瑜院長召集的院長level的朝野協商在協商總預算的那個協商居然上個禮拜就排了應當經由黨團協商的選罷法所以在那一次上周韓國瑜院長主持的朝野協商其實民進黨團包括我本人就提出了這樣子的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2218.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2241.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那今天算是導回正確的程序回到由提案的政黨國民黨黨團來召集黨團協商今天的程序算是回復了起碼該有的正常的程序但是呢我也發現了一個問題也想問一下主席選罷法這麼重要憲法所賦予憲法17條賦予人民選舉罷免創制覆決的權利這麼慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2247.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2248.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席,您在協商的這個議程上是說預計一小時是一小時就要結束嗎?我們希望能夠你的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2265.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2267.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
到五點半就是一小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2287.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2311.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這是第一件事尊重我的發言尊重我的發言所以我們希望主席讓我們充分發言因為這麼重要進夫二讀委員會已經沒有討論這是憲法第17條規範的人民的基本權利當然要好好討論當然我們是希望他應當沒有進夫二讀而是在委員會層級好好討論那第二件事情我也覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2313.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2336.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
很有疑惑那為什麼今天的黨團協商還沒有進行還沒有召開我們剛剛居然又收到韓國瑜院長發出來的明天下午三點鐘的朝野協商已經把第二案第一案是總預算要持續的來討論第二案就是選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2337.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2353.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以我們非常質疑,難道韓院長認為林思明委員、國民黨團、召集的黨團協商不會有好的結論嗎?就預先又跳過了程序,預先排了明天就要討論選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2355.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2369.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
是韓國瑜院長不信任林思明今天會議主席的協調能力嗎?還是說國民黨的朋友們就預設了今天的討論就是一個過水呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2370.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2396.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
只排一小時然後這麼重要既負二讀又關人民基本權利委員會已經沒有時間沒有機會討論了今天來預設一個小時就要結束這場協商甚至韓國瑜院長預設了今天的協商不會有結論明天草野協商再討論然後下一關是什麼就是禮拜五院會就可以表決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2397.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2421.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
是這樣嗎?我想問一下這個程序啊,主席。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答你。我先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2424.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2451.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那我想我的協商我就會充分尊重各位委員你的發言但是我希望大家不要再去講題外話就針對今天的重點這五個條文大家發表你的看法因為這樣講下去我講很實在話這樣一直講下去意見都會重複我想我們現在協商就大家希望形成有一致的意見我們就達成協商沒有辦法達成協商當然我們就意見不一致主席我想繼續謝謝您的說明謝謝來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2453.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2474.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
今天是第一次這個屆期討論選罷法朝野的委員可以坐下來討論這是第一次我們當然希望他是在委員會 內政委員會但是禁服二讀就到今天所以我希望主席能夠理解會議才剛開始我是第一個發言的委員不要說大家又講重複的話不要扯太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2476.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2502.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
來吧,我們才剛坐下來所以說我以歷次選罷法的幾次修正的審查情形跟各位報告2015年修選罷法將政黨補助的門檻由5%下修至3.5%那個時候內政委員會的召集委員是陳其邁委員他在委員會審查三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2503.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2530.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
委員會沒有共識後續交付朝野協商協商的次數是兩次這是同樣的選罷法2016年選罷法也修了就是關鍵的那一次是不是要下修罷免的門檻也就是當時是時代力量委員的黃國昌他要求他提案完全罷免不需要有門檻那一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2531.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2553.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那一次也是陳其邁召委他委員會討論五次協商兩次同樣是選罷法在2023年針對公職候選人的排黑條款排案的主審委員是陳玉珍委員委員會討論的次數是七次 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2554.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2580.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
協商的次數是兩次我想以選罷法這樣一個重大攸關人民選舉罷免的重大神聖權利行使的議案選罷法立次的修正都有委員會充分討論討論三次討論五次討論七次也有充分在朝野協商各協商兩次所以我希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2582.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2605.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我真的很衷心希望剛剛斯敏委員其實我對斯敏委員非常的尊重那您所說的不是只是過水你會在你主持的這個會議上好好的履行讓大家討論的這個前提那如果今天讓大家能夠好好的討論我援引過去選辦法修正花了這麼多次的討論的時間我非常期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2606.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2625.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不要預設了一個立場那可能思明委員您應該要做的一件事情是也許您應當打個電話給韓國瑜院長跟他說相信林思明你會好好如您所說的好好的在黨團協商的歷程過程當中讓委員充分表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2626.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2654.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
韓國瑜院長不需要急著來預設立場會認為今天的協商可能會開花沒結果或者他只是設定這是一個過水也許主席該做的事是跟韓國瑜院長報告無論如何會讓選罷法在國民黨團主持的黨團協商的這個層級讓大家充分討論否則外界也非常疑惑韓院長明天就預先排了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2655.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2666.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
朝野協商要處理選罷法那下一關就是一關一關的朝院會的處理我不希望發生這樣的事情這攸關人民選舉罷免珍貴權利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2670.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2697.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
職權行使不應當是快轉不應當是過水不應當是強度關山所以我先起了這個程序上立次修選罷法在委員會層級充分討論在協商的次數也充分討論的過去修法的經驗我先就程序面請求也呼籲國民黨的朋友們提案的委員們 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2698.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2723.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不要為快而快不要為修而修不要為了增加罷免連署的難度而來沒收人民的權利這是程序上的發言我先報告到這裡那稍後實質法案的內容我也有很多準備要討論的內容再請主席給我時間謝謝謝謝吳世耀委員那我們再補充介紹我們今天到場的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2725.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2736.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
林倩琦委員、翁曉琳委員、蘇巧慧委員、李柏毅委員、洪森翰委員、張宏祿委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2739.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2739.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
陳培宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2760.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2760.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
韓國瑜院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2786.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2813.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
排明天同樣四點半然後也一樣排三點半三點那一樣是要延伸這個選罷法那我們會覺得很奇怪的就是說有這麼急嗎因為我們知道說如果今天的協商不管最後的結論是怎樣但是如果協商沒有成就換院長排那院長在我們今天協商都還沒有結論他就先排了明天的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2814.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2834.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我們可以預測那就是禮拜五就是要表決了那就是今天明天禮拜五那有這麼急嗎?這個涉及到了人民選舉罷免創制覆決這個最重要的公民參與政治的一個權利這東西多討論多用多一點時間讓大家討論又會怎樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2836.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2846.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那何必急著好今天這個協商今天黨團全商明天院長協商禮拜五表決然後就說結束了三讀通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2848.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2872.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
現在以後的罷免制度門檻就大幅提高以後光是要呈案都非常的困難讓罷免的權利大概從此以後看到罷免就很困難了那我們就要回到這件事的本源就是說有必要這麼擔心現行的選罷法對於罷免制度的門檻嗎?如果這個門檻是不合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2873.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2898.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不合理到了說你請柴要走人走人出來要去打罷免的人都會罷免那在基隆市長這一次的罷免我想那就罷免就會過啦後來罷免也是沒有成立嘛那可以證明說現在這一個制度所定的這個罷免的門檻你看有些人會被罷免成功但大部分是罷免失敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2899.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2922.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
大部分是失敗所以他的門檻是高的沒有那麼簡單可以去在現行的制度之下所以我們現在要討論選罷法然後把罷免人盤大幅增加而且這個增加勒是讓未來連成案都產生困難因為你知道你要去連署罷免然後你要繳交身分證的影本給這個罷免團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2925.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2951.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那你身份證原本要給人以現在大家對於各自的保護我們要把身份證交給人這個是何其嚴重的事情所以我們認為說在罷免的時候這個沒有必要把他的門檻拉到了說你連讓他成案難度會高到了這樣的一個程度我們還是覺得說大家在程序上三思我們多一點討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2952.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2960.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
今天協商不成主席你可以再排一次協商啊你可以下禮拜再排協商啊那何必這樣啪啪啪哇連三天連三關那你們國民黨藍白的用意這樣看起來就很清楚了啊你們就是要禮拜五要用人數的優勢強行表決通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2971.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2995.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對阿看起來你們目的都這樣嘛你就直接講嘛那我覺得我們如果今天協商主席可以說我們今天協商不成我下禮拜還要排那我會去跟韓院長說阿他明天先不要排這件事我林思敏有信心我可以好好的溝通我今天排完我下禮拜再排讓真的對關心選罷法的人都可以來這裡讓他暢所欲言讓他講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2997.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3013.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這還是民主的真諦嘛尤其我們現在要行使的這個修法是涉及到人民最基本選舉罷免的最基本的權利我們要去更動這樣的權利的時候是不是在討論上再多一點程序的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3015.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3040.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
主席你現在讓我們說,我們大家都覺得我們要表達我們的意見,而且我們每一個人,然後我要跟主席講,你不能說,主席你不能講說誰在重複發言,因為縱使是同樣一句話,不一樣的人說他就代表著不同的民意基礎,我們每一個人縱使是區議會跟部分區議會,部分區議會也是有他的選票,他是政黨票, |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3041.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3047.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
都有他的民意基礎你不可以去說誰講了誰又講重複了所以後面的人就不能講 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3048.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3049.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
委員許甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。」． |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3071.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3071.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我還沒第二輪啦我第二輪會講 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3088.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3108.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我第二輪會講別的東西那我現在對於我對於今天的協商我提出的尊重啦我在尊重我在跟主席共同啊各位真的我希望這樣子大家不要把同樣的事情你今天第一輪講這樣第二輪又講這樣第三輪又講這樣這樣對我們實質的討論沒有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3116.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3134.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主席在跟我講重複發言的問題我現在要講的重點是因為你剛才問我我回答你我是用你第二輪發言不要重複我講的重點不是說不要說誰是重複發言每個人都有代表每個人的意思我第二輪我會離開我會講 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3136.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3136.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
衛生局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3167.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3172.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝主席,因為其實剛剛有特別提到說為什麼我們這個案子會進負二讀,我來喚醒一下大家的記憶我們其實在內政委員會我們有排審兩次,一次在這裡,那當時民進黨的委員們佔領主席台,讓我們沒有辦法審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3185.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3190.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第二次呢高金昭委又排案了一次那也是一樣半夜就有人闖進這個我們的這個內政委員會來導致我們也沒辦法排案審查經過兩次大家可以知道非常激烈的抗爭所以為什麼當時會進負二讀主要是這樣的原因並不是我們不排不排案審查這第一點第二點呢剛剛我想那個我們的蔡宜瑜我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3212.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3220.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
蔡宇書記長特別有提到說針對我這次的提案就是希望能夠附上身份證的影本大家認為這個部分的話這個各自的問題非常的嚴重可是我這邊有一個是蔡宇委員跟吳秉瑞委員的提案針對公職人員選罷法的修正條文就是要附上身份證影本的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3238.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3264.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那表示說當時蔡委員竟然都覺得要附上身份證影本的提案是正確的沒有喔,你的是這個不然是發證實習或身份證影本的話就是認為說這個因為你發明影本的話你也比較去對嘛然後另外就是我們看到就是在上個會期沒有還有在上個會期第十屆的時候蘇巧會委員跟吳王蕾會委員他們也針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3265.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3275.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
關於那個不用附影板我先講完 等一下 各位 我要採視一下 我要採視一下那我剛剛講 我也沒差你的話 那我講完你可以再說明的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3281.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3300.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
當委員在發言的時候大家盡量不要吵好不好另外就是在第十屆的時候蘇喬惠委員跟王美惠委員他們有提出一個公投法的修正條文的修正草案那吳思瑤委員也是連署人喔裡面就是有提到要填具基本資料貼附本人國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3301.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3308.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
身份證的影本這在第十屆的提案這表示說我們其實很多民進黨委員也都認同應該要附上身份證影本所以我覺得這個只是一個資格那你說要怎麼樣我覺得每個連署人或是提議人他本來就有那個責任要去這個保護每個人的個資也就是他收到身份的影本他要善盡保護的責任否則現在的總統的這個選舉辦法就不用就是也是要附上身份證影本 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3328.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3343.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以我想這個部分應該是這個社長身份領本我覺得只是對於我們聯署加強它的嚴謹性跟公平性以上好 謝謝許宇甄委員我以舉手先後各位委員舉手我都會把你登記下來的那現在請王洪文委員再請張文武委員準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3346.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3366.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
謝謝主席主席很辛苦今天我們選罷法的一個協商大家也可以看到今天民進黨也有很大陣仗來做關心跟發言但是我覺得有一些謬誤的地方我們必須要去做一個澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3369.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3373.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
剛才吳思瑤幹事長一直強調說那為什麼不能夠討論呢應該好好在內政委員會討論可是我想大家都記得我想大家記憶力不是那麼淺我們的腦袋應該不是鯨魚腦在上個會期當時高金素沒擔任召委曾經有兩次的排審 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3396.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3409.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
第一次排審還排到是吳秉瑞就是委員也就是蔡議員也當共提的就共同提案人在那一次大家應該也非常清楚當時可以討論嗎當時可以討論嗎因為民進黨的委員全部都佔據在主席台上啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3422.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3426.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
記不記得後來我們沒有辦法我們只好呢把這個這個會議室改到這個群賢樓那個時候呢不是啦那第二次我要一次又一次的喚醒你們的記憶嗎有啊你忘記了齁你忘記了齁你們佔據這個我待會會講到你們佔據主席台可能佔領非常習慣齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3452.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3472.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
在第一次是7月4號7月4號排審然後沒有辦法所以呢當時的召委只好來換這個會議室可是那個時候占據著內政委員會會議室的民進黨的同仁們幾乎是軟禁軟禁我們的相關的議事人員讓他們無法離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3482.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3486.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這就是要討論的民進黨黨團用這樣的討論方式用軟禁議事人員的方式讓他不能夠開會達成不能開會的目的所以我覺得我現在在這邊啊聽到我對面的吳思瑤委員在那邊誇誇其談我們需要討論啊充分討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3511.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3518.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我覺得可能我們今天要感謝的是還好今天民進黨團在這個協商會沒有站在主席台讓這個協商根本開不成所以7月4號是這樣7月8號那個我想這個吳斯堯委員他只記得那一場我們換了這個議場當天我們的黃捷委員展現了他的特異功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3541.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3557.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
是不是我不曉得在凌晨的時候在整個還沒有開議還沒有開門的時候就直接把門打開了這個事情我覺得韓國瑜院長應該是非常的寬厚啊對不對破壞公務至此啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3561.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3574.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以請問一下那當時如果民進黨團想要討論的話為什麼不能遵循我們原來大家每天我們不是都在開會討論嗎我是不是內政委員會大概也應該是八點以前嘛大家來登記發言嘛來做討論來做陳述嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3584.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3585.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但是能嗎?請問一下民進黨給討論嗎?民進黨團給討論嗎?所以你今天在這邊指責國民黨團說幹嘛急什麼?經負二讀為什麼不給討論?不敢討論嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3605.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3629.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
問題是民進黨黨團不給討論所以我必須要講就是今天大家記憶也不是那麼淺大家如果在講說如果立法院本來就是講道理的地方大家是論述的地方所以以今天來說說是韓國瑜院長對我們林斯民書記長沒有信心嗎我想應該是大家對民進黨團沒有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3635.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3642.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
連內政委員會好好的排案你們都不願意討論到霸佔主席台請問一下我們還如何的能夠好好的說道理呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3648.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3665.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
另外剛才蔡易瑜書記長一直在講說你們現在就這樣設定今天過水明天就是院長來做草野協商星期五就要表決好厲害我也是黨團幹部 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3672.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3695.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們在黨團內部我們都沒有討論到的事情哇你都知道我要講的是星期五的設定應該是民進黨團的設定吧應該是民進黨團的設定因為早早青鳥就在星期五的時候已經已經在我們立法院附近已經搶下路權了不是嗎所以這搶下路權應該是在上個禮拜啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3701.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3703.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
所以這個設定的日期到底是誰設定的呢是青鳥設定的嗎還是民進黨團設定的嗎所以你們控制青鳥還是青鳥控制你們我不知道因為你們就是要青鳥飛進議場忘記了嗎忘記了嗎上個會期不是就在那邊青鳥要飛嗎飛進那個立法院嗎好 所以我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3729.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3729.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
要討論要協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3733.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3741.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
國民黨團一直尊重相關的程序包括剛才吳詩瑤委員講說那麼在星期一的時候覺得應該還是要在我們這個內政委員會由國民黨團來做協商我們也從善如流我講的是我們絕對釋出絕對的善意我們不會因為因人肺炎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3762.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3774.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以那為什麼今天就有這樣的協商呢所以我們也是從善如流但是我們真的要回頭想一想到底誰不願意協商啊另外不願意討論的是你們不是嗎好然後呢我要特別講的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3784.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3787.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
待會可能我相信可能民進黨團的同仁會談到哎呀這怎麼樣的是那個違背這個違背這個打壓人民的這個公民的權利就是罷免的權利創制復決等等的權利那我們要講的是在我們一些相關的連署裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3810.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3825.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
有身份證影本的 包含總統的連署 總統選舉的連署也是需要身份證影本 所以這不是獨一無二的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3826.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3834.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這不是獨一無二的那另外啊我們現在希望能夠能夠把它確認說在這個整個的罷免的過程裡面有一些過去我們所發現的一些疏漏或者我們發現有一些其實呢它其實已經反而傷害了這樣的一個罷免的權利所以我們把它稍作補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3855.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3859.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
沒有提高門檻只是讓這些罷免連署能夠確保這個是不會有假冒的情勢過去越確實啊我們很多有時候連署會出現死人連署的狀況這個大家也講得非常多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3873.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3879.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那然後剛才我們徐宇甄委員特別提到因為之前吳秉瑞委員跟蔡易瑜委員也有共同提案選罷法的修正選罷法的修正然後我會給你你待會還可以講話嘛對不對你待會還可以講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3900.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3926.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
有嗎?我哪一句事實不符?我講了你的法案了嗎?我講了你的法案嗎?你在緊張什麼?撤議委員不要緊張!有?我講錯什麼啊?我還沒...我還沒有...我還沒念啊?你怎麼那麼緊張啊?我沒有! |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3928.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3940.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
根本沒有欸你們真的是睜著眼說瞎話我只講到我只講到吳秉瑞委員、蔡育瑜委員共同提案的法案啊那講錯什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3946.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3972.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我沒有講我還沒講啊我沒有講錯啊好好好你去掉不要不要插我的話不要插我的話你不要插我的話然後呢我現在呢就來念一下我們吳秉瑞委員蔡毅委員等21人所提案的案有好來看哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3974.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3995.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
堅於近幾次罷免案出現大量死亡提議連署書顯見現行提議連署制度漏洞嚴重讓有心人士藉大量的個人資料假冒提議連署已經違反個人的資料保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3997.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4013.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
且罷免案乃選民對於公職人員信賴與否之抉擇若以假冒眾人意志左右提議連署,不可不為以足以深損害於公眾或他人 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4015.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4040.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
為了避免假冒情勢的發生原擬具公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案以完善罷免制度規定所以我要講的是我們現在覺得我們現在的整個罷免的流程有一些流弊有一些疏失甚至呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4042.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4046.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們吳秉瑞委員、蔡育委員都認為這樣的聯署制度是漏洞嚴重所以之前吳秉瑞委員有提案只是後來你們撤案了但是這不代表這些的問題已經被解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4061.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4087.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以民進黨撤案那麼國民黨基於一個負責任的態度提出我們的版本一樣的出發點也是能夠去防堵這些相關的漏洞也是一樣的去把這些可能產生的一些流弊能夠把它加以解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4089.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4092.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以請問一下你不能說是這個民進黨提案好棒棒就是什麼要減少流幣等等國民黨提案就是危害到公民的罷免權 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4108.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4132.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
不要這樣好不好永遠都是綠能你不能這樣子的標準是不應該的不要綠能你不能好再來即使內容不相同不是完全相同我講了所以呢所以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4135.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4144.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那所以啊 你讓我講話啊啊你剛才 你剛才說說我 說我亂講 說我講錯講錯我講錯什麼 我到現在為止 講錯什麼我到現在講錯什麼到現在到底在講錯什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4159.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4173.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
各位委員讓我們尊重委員的發言好不好尊重委員的發言我還在講啊我還沒講完你在緊張什麼我還沒講完嘛對不對我還沒講完你要緊張什麼嘛好那麼我們可以看到我現在就要講了嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4190.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4193.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
不要緊張 對不對我幹嘛緊張 我現在就要唸啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4203.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4217.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
不要著急以吳秉瑞和蔡易瑜委員共同提案的版本那麼在我們這個國民身份證的統一編號還有發證日期還有什麼戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4222.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4222.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
委員許宇甄等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4233.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4242.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
彌補上發證日期而國民黨的版本在座精進在座精進除了發證日期之外也參考了總統跟副總統選罷法裏面有關於總統副總統連署在連署的過程裏面也有要求身份證引本 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4261.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4262.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們認為選舉總統跟副總統非常重要他也不應該什麼出現去抄名冊去抄工會的名冊甚至有一些死人連署的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4276.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4300.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
同樣的在罷免也是一樣的那麼我們也尊重公民的罷免權但是我們也體會到如同吳秉瑞跟這個蔡育宇委員所提到的相關的這些流弊我們提出來提出來是身份證影本還有發證日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4303.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4311.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好 所以我要講的是 其實大家都有注意到 在過去幾次罷免裡面出現的問題當然啦 這個民進黨團講說 你們急什麼 你們怕什麼 你們是不是因為怕罷免 blah blah blah |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4323.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4344.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那我要跟大家報告的是我們剛才我忘記是蔡易瑜委員還是吳思瑤委員提到比如說像這個之前結束不久的這個謝國良的罷免案那麼謝國良罷免案事實上呢謝國良算是不但過關而且算是過關的蠻漂亮的所以其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4351.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4376.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以啦就我在講啊所以我們沒有在怕罷免的嘛趕快拍手趕快拍手趕快拍手沒有我們是基於整體的今天如果按照謝國良經驗我們幹嘛怕罷免啊對啊我們沒有怕罷免因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4378.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4387.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
只要正面對決所以我要講的是這就是國民黨團不會以一黨之私 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4397.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4420.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
不會黨議、凌駕民意。然後你想想看,我真的是不解啊。其實我覺得,欸,蔡玉瑜,副書記長,啊我真的覺得你這個案子也不錯了餒。對嘛,我們法案很多,大家都有不同版本,大家來討論。啊請問,好待會你講啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4426.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4427.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好你待會講我剛才都沒有講錯對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4431.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4453.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
然後呢 這麼好的版本 欸 參議員 這版本好不好你說你說 你說你共同提案的版本好不好你提案的版本好不好你提案 不是不是 你這個提案的版本好不好啊你一般般 你講得這麼好 講得這麼好 你幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4460.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4483.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我沒辦法支持啊!你們撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案啦!你撤案了啦!對不對?你撤案了啦!我們都你提啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4486.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4502.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我跟你講啊,我們把你們,把它當作垃圾的東西,你們是,你們因為齁,啊,國民黨團,我告訴你啦,所以蔡議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4505.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4532.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我是你喔 我是你我就哭哭啦阿我自己覺得 我很努力去提的版本阿結果 為了你們要去佔領主席台那天我們就是要討論你的版本欸欸 7月4號 7月4號欸 就是要提 你看一看一看我又在 我又在recall你們的記憶好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4534.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4542.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
怎麼會記憶這麼淺呢?對不對?記憶這麼淺對不對?7月4號7月4號來7月4號就是要討論吳秉瑞的版本你看陳奕宇 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4564.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4576.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你把你的版本你把你的提案當垃圾對對他很清楚啊他很清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4583.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4601.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
沒錯!你講了!撤案喔!沒錯!你講你撤案啊!你幹嘛撤案?你告訴我你幹嘛撤案?對不對?因為...因為你們要佔領主席台嘛!因為你們...把7月4號來...來7...我很多給你!欸! |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4609.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4629.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我一定要留給你講啦但是我一定要還原啦不然大家都忘記了我很害怕的大家忘記了講來講去好像是我們不讓你們那個什麼主席、民進黨委員的發言你為什麼不支持了洪輝你都只打斷民進黨的發言你只打斷蔡奕宇 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4638.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4655.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
主持人不公啊下一個是誰講我們請麥一貞委員發言下一個是各位我們就是一定要黨派穿插不可能每一個人當然就張宏錄麥一貞講一下再換張宏錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4660.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4670.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
各位我們協商各個黨的意見我們都要聽齁所以我們現在請民眾黨為他第一次發言所以我們請民眾黨做第一輪的發言好不好好我們請麥立正來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4683.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4684.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我沒有那麼會講 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4713.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4716.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
特別就是連署罷免的程序存在很多的漏洞不管是民進黨或者國民黨都有提出所以每一個人都知道說這個不完整所以包含就是死人連署或者抄莊獎名單等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4732.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4734.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以就是有這個亂象所以呢我們的嚴重就是影響到選罷法的制度還有公信力和有無私聯署的真實表達的意義所以在選罷法罷免的制度設計應該是就是太處機制而不是政黨的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4754.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4760.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以為了維護選罷法我們民眾黨是沒有提出版本但是我們是有幾個就是我們是堅持的為了維護選罷法的公平與正當性唯有就是透過具體的規範和嚴謹的程序還能避免就是連署的假象還有就是罷免的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4777.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4780.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
更透明。所以我們台灣民眾黨秉持理性物質科學的理念對於選罷法的修正討論我們不贊成盲目的提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4794.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4794.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
尊重尊重請尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4822.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4834.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好,如果相關大家都被罷免,因為大家都委員嘛,所以聽我講嘛,好嗎?因為大家都有機會罷免,不是只有國民黨還是誰,大家都會有機會,因為每一個人...對啊這一些都是助理來協助,不是博異不相干,但是他也是我的助理,我也可以來主任嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4852.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4881.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
因為,不是,對,聽我講啦,好嗎?不相干,我還沒有講完,我還沒有講完,你們就打斷了,對不對?不相干內政委員會的委員,平常我們開會就是我們內政的委員,很和樂大家來討論,對不對?但是那天我進來,我自己也嚇到,怎麼那麼多不同的委員會都在這裡,所以我們就,我以為是大家在辦什麼活動,是不是公聽會? |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4883.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4898.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我才知道你們來這邊開派對所以我後面才知道我沒有參與到所以因為我不敢進來大家說你不要進來等一下被他們打的話沒有人保護你我說我不知道是怎麼回事所以我就不進來我只有簽名就是說等開會但是後來就沒有開會所以我們希望就是因為這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4906.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4934.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們不贊成盲目的提高罷免門檻我們都是從頭到尾都是要這樣子的表態因為對公民權利還有過度的機制民眾黨主張應該比照就是副總統、總統選舉的聯署程序要求就是身分證還有以保聯署的真實性這就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4936.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4942.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
預防死人連署的亂象也確保罷免程序的正當性因為每一個人都是委員都是一票一票選出來的對不對我們有選舉的時候就是身分證都要去看清楚所以說對當選的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4958.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4960.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
二、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。． |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4978.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4986.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
主價值我們希望說呼應大家不管任何人因為大家都是選民選出來的我們要理性的討論關於這個選辦法要達成共識怎麼樣比較好因為不是說這邊國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4997.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5002.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
民進黨也可能也被罷免對不對未來我們民眾黨很多的立委如果是用票選上來的不是政黨票的也有可能對不對所以我們希望說達成每一個人選舉公平罷免也要公平這樣子的話才不會說好不容易花很多的精神選上了但是呢就是要罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5027.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5032.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
正見不足隨便簽這樣子的話對大家都不公平所以我們希望就是要因為這樣子要怎麼樣提出就是更健全的展示就是我們的應有的效率台灣的選舉還有更加進步所以我們希望是這樣所以今天我們就是表達我們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5050.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5053.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
選辦法我們不會去就是要去改但是門檻我們希望真的是要嚴謹對大家最公平最有保障的這個就是我們的發言謝謝大家謝謝麥議生委員充分表達民眾黨的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5084.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5107.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我覺得修這個選罷法其實跟我們立法委員本身這個利益是有相關聯的我們當一個立法委員利益迴避應該是最基本的你在修這個法跟我們每個立法委員都息息相關的情況之下我個人認為其實是應該要充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5108.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5118.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那剛剛聽了大家都這樣講好像大家也都認為可以在委員會討論啊那我覺得我們應該就是委員會可以充分的討論啊那而且我覺得如果如果齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5122.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5149.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
要講要修這個法那公投法也有連署的問題我覺得我們可以一併討論一併來處理對不對我覺得這個才是比較負責任的立法院所以我覺得兩個理由第一個這個跟每個立法委員本身都有相關這是有利益迴避的問題你如果沒有充分的討論我覺得很難對社會大眾交代這是第一個第二個我認為要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5150.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5177.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
你連公投法你也應該要一起討論啊對不對那我記得在上上屆的時候在修公投法的時候國民黨也是極力的反對啊那我覺得這樣的情況之下我們大家一起要好好的坐下來把公投法一起拿來檢視把選罷法一起拿來檢視好好的討論你這樣子才不會立法院你修一個選罷法你把公投法要放在那邊那在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5178.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5195.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你變成有要連署的有好幾種啊 對不對剛剛大家講的總統的有一種那你變成選罷法好像又跟總統比較相似然後呢你公投法又要綁在那邊我覺得這不是一個有水準的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5196.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5197.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
委員許甄等20人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5212.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5239.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
跟這個選舉相關的法律我們拿下來大家好好來討論啦主席我的具體建議是這樣子啦這樣子我們立法院做這樣子的跟自己有利益相關的我覺得比較能夠說服大眾好不好主席好我們謝謝張伍毅委員的發言接下來我們請那個李柏毅委員他現在離開了好那我們就請洪森漢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5241.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5244.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我現在手上拿著一份國民黨的文宣 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5271.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5272.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019國民黨2019 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5285.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5313.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
內容寫說民進黨提案公投連署需附身份證影本這是侵害隱私提高連署難度所以下面寫說全民互公投民進黨殺公投國民黨的文宣裡面清楚的寫明需要附身份證正反影本這是在殺公投的事情當年呢藍偉強力杯葛公投法2019年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5314.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5335.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
甚至拿三秒交封鎖門鎖因為強力阻擋公投法所以後來我跟大家說當時確實行政院的版本一開始是有附身份證影本的後來民進黨團也聽從了當年很多公民團體的建議還有在野黨也做這樣子的提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5336.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5352.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以就將要負身份證影本的規定給拿掉了所以最後在2019年6月修正的公投法的版本裡面就是不用負身份證正反影本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5352.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5372.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為那個時候不管是公民社會公民團體或在野黨包括國民黨包括當時的時代力量我相信那時候也包括當時的黃國昌委員黃國昌委員當時也是立法院在2019年的時候都說要附身份證正反影本這是會傷害人民的個資 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5376.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5387.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
提高連署的難度這都是國民黨的文宣的內容我很少拿國民黨的文宣啦我這輩子難得拿國民黨的文宣我一個字一個字的念 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5388.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5417.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我一個字一個字的念這就是國民黨文宣的內容當年後來這個修法基本上各黨派是有共識確實覺得身份證影本是有這樣子傷害各自的疑慮傷害各自的疑慮所以大家一起把它給拿掉了民進黨團我們也同意了當時的行政院也同意了所以沒有什麼好拿之前的版本在那邊揮啦當時大家就一起做成了這個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5419.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5446.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
一起做成這個共識結果呢現在國民黨又拿著身份證、正反影本要來魚目混珠民進黨團就算有提版本也只是要求身份證的發證日期那不用把整份的身份證的影像全部交出去啊不用交出去啊你只要在家裡把那個發證日期給填上去就好在上面不會有其他的個資不會有整張身份證、正反影本的個資啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5448.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5473.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
現在國民黨要做的事情很簡單他就是要讓民眾不敢連署啦現在大家很重視個資的問題對不對很重視被詐騙的問題對不對國民黨咬準了民眾的這個心理知道說如果要連署你要把身份證正版一本交出去民眾就算我很想要罷免那個政治人物我也不敢交出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5474.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5501.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
在連署這關把整個罷免給封殺掉還不用去調到時候同意票的門檻在幹前端就把你的罷免給封殺掉這是國民黨現在要做的事情大家看這段文宣主席我不知道那時候你有沒有一起看這段文宣有沒有發到你臉書上我不知道這個是朱立倫主席在上面的許宇甄委員看一下朱立倫主席上面還有簽名當年大家用這個說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5506.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5529.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
你們快來證實到說是不是啊那我現在講很簡單啦其實大家標準一致啦大家標準一致啦當年後來民進黨團跟民進黨的行政院我們也從善如流認為這樣做確實有疑慮所以我們把它拿掉了我們認為這個事情已經在各黨之間達成了共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5530.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5550.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
已經不是一個議題了但沒想到在經過了五年之後國民黨又怕大罷免潮啦我要說怕大罷免潮應該是檢討自己不要又去激怒人民啦不要再讓人民這麼憤怒啦結果現在國民黨跟民眾黨幹的事情是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5552.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5552.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
最簡單： |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5568.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5592.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
然後現在要與睦混珠說這個身份證的發證日期跟身份證領本就是完全不一樣的事情剛剛王洪威委員也承認這就是不一樣的事情裡面的個資的密度跟強度完全不一樣的事情但又要與睦混珠拜託不要搞這一套你們在閹割人民的權利就是你們自己文宣上面講的嘛侵害隱私嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5593.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5604.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這四個字大家不會看不懂嘛為什麼當年是侵害隱私五年後現在要復申的那份反應本就不是侵害隱私為什麼給個理由啊當年民進黨當年民進黨也後來也從善如流認為這有各自疑慮這有各自風險所以我們後來就拿掉了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5621.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5648.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
2019年6月最後的投票的結果大家可以看一下嘛那現在在黨說這個總統副總統的選舉罷免法對不起那個是1995年的法律啦那是1995年修的法律那是法律但是這麼簡單我們最近在討論身份證正法英本的問題是在2019年啦為什麼你那時候不用總統副總統罷免法 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5650.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5656.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我才講8分鐘欸!不是啊!你...他一直要我給個說法! |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5659.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5663.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
為什麼當年修公投法的時候行政院的版本有拘附身份證正反應本的時候國民黨不用說 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5685.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5710.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面也有啊為什麼當年不用這個理由因為現在要被罷免的是國民黨的委員嘛就這麼簡單嘛有什麼好遮掩的有什麼好遮掩的我們只要求一件事情啦未來罷免為什麼要打斷為什麼要打斷我們只希望很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5712.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5724.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
接下來罷免可能有藍有綠啦可能也有白啦但我只要求一件事情啦不要閹割人民的權利啦不要侵犯人民的隱私啦就這麼簡單啦為什麼連這麼簡單國民黨都做不到為什麼國民黨現在還要強推強行表決一個會侵犯人民隱私甚至引起未來包括詐騙的問題各自的問題後面就是詐騙的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5740.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5742.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這樣子一個法案,為什麼國民黨要強推?毫無道理嘛!就是政治考慮嘛!不要再講什麼民主了啦!閹割人民權利的政黨,兩個政黨,政黨聯合起來,還講什麼民主?就這麼簡單嘛!就這一張文宣就講完了嘛!這誰做的?是民黨做的嗎?這國民黨做的啦!拜託國民黨,不要跟人民對幹啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5768.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5769.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
現在國民黨幹的事情是把矛頭對準人民的權利啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5769.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5769.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
閹割人民的權利啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5780.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5809.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
拜託 我就講到這邊對不起 我的時間不到然後會有那個二分之一那是哪位委員的助理那個哪一個什麼助理那是我的助理對 我想大家直播可以掉袋子就好他拍我喔盡量不要站在那邊啦好不好他拍我喔對 那個算 我們維持秩序啊就你掉袋到時候掉你的直播袋就好了沒問題好不好來對 我想助理盡量不要進到我們議場這邊來我們跑在後面就好了齁朱熹好 以上 朱熹謝謝我們把這道理講在這個地方要講道理大家來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5812.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5819.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
要講道理大家來講但請國民黨不要硬幹不要跟人民為敵不要厭惡人民的權利謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5843.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5848.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
OK,好,輪我說話了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5861.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5876.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
大家已經發表完意見了我要謝謝洪勝翰委員剛剛有提到2019年的時候行政院跟民進黨當時也提出了類似的修法那我必須說你們真是有先見之明知道說之後的我們這個選舉環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5877.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5877.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
選舉罷免法 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5892.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5897.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
法律本來就是會與時俱進,要隨著時空環境的轉變,要來這個管動勢的修正檢討。那麼如果說當時2019年行政院和民進黨黨團所提出來的法案,你們認為他是具有正當性的,這個畢竟我們這個任何一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5914.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5914.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這是國民黨! |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5937.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5958.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
每個黨都有你們的更厲害更嚴重如果說你們不擔心的話為什麼你們要反對現在的修法沒有這個道理如果說你們這個認為其實我們都是在捍衛人民的罷免權那麼我們必須要所有的連署書出去它都必須要是真實的那為什麼要擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5962.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5970.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個附上國民身份證的正反映印本還有填上發證日期會有什麼侵害隱私現在的詐騙絕對不會是因為寫了聯署書寫了罷免聯署書然後所以至於造成詐騙的這個猖狂這個會有詐騙的問題都是你們民進黨政府執法不力抓不到詐騙集團還好意思在那裡講 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5986.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5998.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們現在是寫個什麼聯署書然後填一些資料就有可能會洩露個資會造成詐騙如果是這樣的話那總統這個副總統選罷法為什麼你們不提出來修正咧就來修啊對啊我要講就是今天所提出來的公職人員選罷法的修正規定事實上我們是要保護的是整個的罷免案它具有正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6016.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6032.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
從一開始的提議到聯署每一關每一個環節它都是符合真實性的我們不容許有任何的造假的聯署書那麼更何況這個填上聯署表格之後不是還要經過驗證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6036.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6059.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
否則怎麼會知道說到底寫上去的身份證字號是真是假?出生年月日是不是正確?戶籍地址是不是正確?所以附上國民身份證的正反映一本不是正好可以讓相關的機關辨於作證、佐證同時也可以讓聯署的單位他也募集聯署的單位他更好可以去辨別哪一個是真假 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6061.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6070.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個是有意義的修法不是沒有意義的修法民進黨常常都是拙勢驚飛以前你們所提出來的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6073.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6078.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
你們就是著是驚飛以前你們的提案就可以現在我們的提案就不行我為什麼要笑我覺得很合理啊因為時空環境改變我們不知道民進黨政府執政之後整個的選舉罷免環境就越來越糟糕啊越來越多的弊端出現啊然後這個中選會也不查啊也不查清楚啊都是個案的這個選擇判斷啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6100.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6126.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以當然也是要修法,修得清清楚楚啊保護各自難道不是聯署這個單位的責任嗎?他今天去募集到這個要聯署人的身份證、銀本當然要保護好啊如果說是大家有疑慮不敢去寫那就代表說也質疑這個聯署單位本身是有問題所以就整個的法的邏輯法理來講是絕對站得住腳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6127.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6129.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以我就說我很謝謝剛剛紅委員你提出了2019年你當時民進黨行政院也是支持這樣的版本為什麼拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6138.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6153.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
是因為你們不敢堅持這個正當性的法理嘛就這麼簡單啊你們還是考慮到你們自己的問題啊如果說你們認為是正確的為什麼當時不堅持勒所以就是這是很有趣的為什麼你當時不堅持勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6159.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6185.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
沒有水準的委員太多了啦然後呢我們今天是就事論事今天既然是草野賢商我們就好好的來把這個條文這個看看哪個地方有問題我們來修嘛那如果談不出個結果來那我們就進入到下一個階段嗎?欸!來了!是啊!不是嗎?我就是維尼大!要來了!不是嗎?不是就進入到下面一個階段嗎?要來了! |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6188.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6206.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
各位委員,現在我在宣告一件事,麥義森委員現在已經離席,就是有民主黨的代表他已經離席了,所以現在實際上我們是現在協商明顯不會達成共識,但是沒關係我跟你講,現在我們還是繼續討論,現在大家討論還是繼續討論,我們討論的就是各黨的意見的表達。 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6213.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6217.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主席會議請問,所以因為那個拜一尊委員民眾黨他不在現場﹖所以我們今天﹖哪裏規定不在場都不能決定協商﹖在哪裏的議事規則規定有不同政黨的人離開現場都不能再協商﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6241.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6262.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這就是國會跨城法案一模模一樣啊!黃國昌走人!我再詢問一下!不是!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下!我再詢問一下! |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6269.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6287.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
對!我在詢問他為什麼要插話!我在詢問主席!是你跟他在插話好不好!你為什麼要插話?我在詢問!我在詢問不可以嗎?現在我們的討論是各位黨他意見的表達喔!各位意見的表達!各位你們充分表達意見!我沒有意見喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6300.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6327.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
OK我再出聲音我剛才大家聽清楚沒有因為有民眾黨的委員因為我們在協商一定要三個黨都在啦我想你有這個事啦你不要再跟我爭了所以我說不會討論出協商的結果沒有人簽字嘛所以我現在是告訴各位我繼續讓各位發言我們現在的發言就是各位你們自己的就是各位委員你們意見的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6328.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6329.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我充分尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6341.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6364.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
沒關係 我們待會再跟他確認現在請那個沈柏洋委員發言主席 我覺得大家的互相尊重拜託主席跟民眾黨的代表說一下什麼感覺大家都很重要希望聽到這個告解你跟他拜託一下好不好因為大家的互相尊重沈柏洋委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6377.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6397.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主席我可以會議詢問一下嗎?主席我會議詢問一下沒有沒有因為您剛剛的裁示我有點不理解您的裁示是說不管我們講到我們還有很多意見要表達但是您剛剛說因為民眾黨的代表已經離席了所以你預判說今天協商沒有結論你已經預設了這個前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6402.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6410.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以現在您的意思是說民眾黨民眾黨跟你們民眾黨是預謀好他走了就讓今天沒有沒有結論對你是說民眾黨預謀好了民眾黨預謀好了結果他離開今天就沒有結論是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6421.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6444.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
黨團協商就是這樣,我們沒有辦法達成結論啊!那我們再排協商可以嗎?我們再排協商可以嗎?我們再排協商可以嗎?我現在只能排今天這一場,明天我們再,那好啦,就這樣我們就宣告了主席玩弄程序啊,怎麼會在討一討啊,主席敢再討一討啊!對,你不要再討來一件啊!還要再討來一件啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6447.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6447.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
請審委員表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6463.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6480.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
民眾黨先離開了,但是我們還是有可能國民黨跟民進黨可能也會達成一些共識,這也是很重要的事情。那如果今天只是在程序上,程序上因為他不在,但我們如果兩黨能夠達成共識的話,這也是一個很重要的事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6480.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6508.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那或許我們能夠延續下去的話那明天韓院長的那一個可能要建議院長先不要那麼急著開阿因為我們這表示我們有延續性嘛阿可能那個麥委員回來之後呢可能他過幾天他知道我們兩邊的結論之後還可以繼續協商啦我的建議是這個樣子所以明天韓院長可能就不需要再去剛剛其實有蠻多共識的啦第一個共識應該就是我感覺王委員跟汪委員應該都蠻想加入民進黨的一直在看我們的法案啦齁對不對這個我覺得他很支持以前我們的一些想法啦齁對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6511.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6537.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但是我必須要講幾個點就是說第一個就是當然是很感謝主席就是讓我們有這一個協商的這一個機會但我還是必須要講就是我們有幾件事情好像一開始前提可能沒有弄好第一個就是我們在這一次的提案裡面最主要我們有爭議的地方是在講這一個提高罷免門檻這件事情但是其實這個顯然剛剛在討論的時候並不是從這個角度出發 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6540.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6565.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
大部分都是在講說有死人連署有這個作假什麼等等那其實這個有一個因果關係很重要的一個問題就是大家可以看到就以往有那麼多的這些造假的連署這一個呢大部分不是大部分都是國民黨發動的那比例很高但我覺得重點是什麼重點是他被發現了比如說發動罷免陳志忠有46%不合格發動罷免高明玲這個有49%不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6569.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6595.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那這個數據在這邊的意思是什麼就是我們發現它不合格嘛如果我們發現得了它不合格的話那為什麼用這個當作理由說我們現在要把罷免的這些程序做改變除非我們是覺得說他們發現得太慢了他們發現的這個程序這個通常要好幾天我們現在想要縮短這些公務人員的作業時間所以我們要修改一些規定這樣聽起來才合理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6596.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6609.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那很多人就說我們要弄這個影本是可能是為了要怕說他們有偽造啊就是冒名啊但我們刑法本來就有偽造文書罪啊所以就算我們今天完全不動選罷法其實跟這件事情沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6611.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6632.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這件事情從頭到尾都是可以被發現的跟你要不要附發證要不要附影本沒有什麼關係啊他的因果根本就不存在嘛那不存在的話那為什麼要這個理由來修法所以就回到下一個層次就是當你今天要附身份證影本的時候既然這一個不是理由那你真正的理由是什麼就是讓罷免變難嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6634.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6657.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
讓罷免變難這件事情我們可以來看一下因為剛剛麥委員有提到民眾黨的立場因為今天大家都一直在講歷史所以還是講一下我們可以從國民黨為什麼還沒有反攻大陸講起但是我們可以看到這一個13年的黃國昌委員就有說有一批立委或許預知到他接下來會做很可怕的事情所以他在立法院提案讓罷免程序變得複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6659.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6674.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
每個提議員跟臨署人要求把身份證影本交出來你會擔心,擔心的效果是什麼所以呢這個很明顯我們可以看到在2013年的黃國昌委員現在可能在家裡的地下室就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6676.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6677.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
委員許宇甄 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6695.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6711.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
本來在法律上就可以直接規範在程序上也可以被發現所以最重要的是當你把這個東西加進去不管你今天是從發證日起還是你從身份證引本你就是實質在讓門檻增加你就是實質讓罷免變得不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6712.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6730.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那罷免作為一個政治性的權利這是一個動態的過程我們台灣人民已經熟悉了民主其實也慢慢在熟悉罷免這件事情如果你貿然的把一些不合理的要件加上去這個第一個會造成政治權利上的一個傷害第二個就像剛剛這個馮委員提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6732.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6760.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
以前詐欺還沒那麼猖獗現在詐欺很猖獗這一些東西呢他拿出來之後呢很有可能會被詐欺拿去利用嘛更不要講說如果這邊大家對於這一個所謂的這一個個資外洩可能有研究的話其實齁照理說發證日期是一個妥協的方案你利用發證日期來做審核這件事情聽起來是合理的但是通常來講如果你今天要取得一個人的個資假設我今天有他的那一個條碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6761.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6783.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
通常我還在需要一個步驟就可以拿到比較多資訊那一個資訊其實就是發證跟換照日期所以其實發證跟換照日期在資安上面比大家想像的重要非常非常多而這個也不是以前這是這兩三年才會變得那麼重要這是應該跟我們內部這個資安的這個機制有關係所以我這個就不多說所以我還是覺得說我們今天既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6784.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6813.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
想要協商想要聚焦我們應該就要實質的去面對這件事情就是其實這一個法案他就是想要把罷免的門檻提高的法案他的目的就是這個樣子他其實非常的明確因為其他的理由根本就不支持這樣的說法嘛那既然是這個樣子的話我們就是要討論我們要不要限制人民的罷免權如果你不要限制人民的罷免權那就不應該讓這個法案繼續下去接下來我還要講一下就是我覺得這法案寫的有點粗糙為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6813.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6816.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
因為發現日期在有一個版本有一個版本沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6817.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6844.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
但我們可以看到我剛才是稍微翻了一下譬如說在162頁這一個這應該是徐委員的這個版本他在這一個呢右邊這一個現有條文的時候沒有發證日期但左邊這邊就冒出了發證日期不知道為什麼不知道是不是傅公祺的版本複製過來但我記得你的版本是比較早的所以就是有些文字上的謬誤然後再來就是最後一個叫98條之二利用他人個人資料未經同意未造假冒提議連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6845.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6870.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個條文問題非常多為什麼第一個我們的法律本來就有規定第二個它的第二行叫做未經同意偽造那我在這邊稍微科普一下偽造的定義就叫做未經同意所以偽造就是偽造不需要未經同意偽造然後接下來就是偽造、假冒跟連署這其實三種不同的行為是不是要等量以關這個我看司法院其實已經有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6871.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6889.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以其實有太多太多的事情其實應該要在委員會討論當然我猜可能等一下又要講說那是因為委員會沒有辦法召開啊什麼等等之類的我要告訴大家當今天你們真的要推一個法案的時候就算今天討論了我們的討論會直接被停止那昨天才發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6890.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6905.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
一句話我都沒有講到就直接被停止討論其實我們在上會期就已經遇過太多事情所以我們也只好能夠在黨團協商的時候趁這個機會把我們的意見詳述那最後我還是要一個紅路委員講的我覺得非常重要的一點就是這個涉及事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6906.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6926.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
既然這一個會影響到現在的立法委員我覺得這第一個要三思第二個我覺得更應該往下我們要去注意的就跟釋字499號講的類似就是當我們今天會牽涉到跟這一個立法委員的報酬啦待遇啦什麼等等之類的他應該要怎麼樣要從刺借起實施啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6926.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6946.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
也就是說如果你真的要去做提高門檻這件事情的話人民的信賴利益也會被破壞那麼你就應該往後在下一屆的時候才可以適用但這一個東西呢也沒有在我們現在討論的這個法案的內容裡面所以我必須要講說呢這個就是第一個它的理由是不夠充分的第二個就是它的文字上也有很多的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6946.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6974.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那更不要講說行則的部分定的不明確再加上又有自我這個迴避的問題齁我是認為說至少我們在這一邊呢必須要審慎一對這個協商應該要拉長一點齁那我簡單講到這邊,謝謝好,謝謝沈薄洋委員齁啊,那個林憲吉委員有,有,有代表,對,你第一輪我讓你先講一下下一位就請蘇巧慧委員然後再張雅琳委員齁,OK |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6976.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6993.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
主席、各位歷任同仁我想今天我們在這邊進行這個協商大家都因為是尊重民主政治當中我們對於人民行使各項權利包括我們今天在這邊討論的有關於罷免前的這樣一個民主性我們都相信它是神聖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6994.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6994.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7024.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7028.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
國民黨的版本是希望我們在這個罷免權利的形式上那更為 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7047.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7068.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
更為更細緻如果民進黨認為在這個行使權利的過程當中會對人民產生一些隱私上的影響那是不是可以用一個正面表列的方式或許在相關的法規裡面提出來你們對於在人民隱私上的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7069.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7069.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
﹚委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7084.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7084.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
蘇巧惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7100.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7109.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
好 謝謝主席今天變成是歷史課大家都要來回憶我們之前的這個印象那我是覺得如果我們要開始回憶的話其實不能夠只有從7月4號那天在委員會當天這個混亂的現場開始回憶起 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7117.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7119.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
大家應該要更往前這個五月份的時候這個國民黨提出的這個擴權法案造成了這麼多的社會反彈在這樣的狀況 對不對甚至是從今年的二月換屆之後人數的多寡交替之後立法院呈現一個什麼樣的狀況大家開始來回憶起嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7142.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7148.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以從五月的時候發現國民黨提的法案就算社會的大多數聲音民進黨的委員跟他說我們有意見我們覺得這個有問題社會上甚至是跟他們講說這個過去你們提的版本民進黨也曾提的版本或怎麼樣的版本大家都不同意不是多數所以沒有過他還是像現在今天這樣說沒有你們民進黨就是有提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7167.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7189.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們一直跟他講說可是後來沒有成啊就沒有過啊所以表示我們當時也尊重草野當時的草野的這個討論的結果最後沒有過他就不管他就是一直repeat重複repeat這台詞是一模一樣到現在好啦那結果這個五月的時候你看到二十幾號的時候哎呀坐在我對面這個沈伯陽委員真的你當時辛苦了從台上這樣跌下來真的是真的是幸好剛剛看看這個講話的時候都還是駝邏輯清楚啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7196.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7216.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這是被到底是被誰推下來丟下來這樣的狀況看到現在人家都還說你是自找的耶到現在人家都還是說你是自找的這個實在是喔實在是覺得齁真的你看齁所以我們真的是要回憶一下然後呢所以當時的立法院氣氛就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7217.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7222.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
如果 如果 國民黨想要法案 就是要按照國會的人數多數 強行通過 淨富二讀快速通過 過水式的通過 那當然 後面他如果再提出任何的法案 我們當然要從第一步就開始阻擋啊好 那我們來看7月4號 7月4號是一個什麼樣的氛圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7241.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7246.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
七月四號就是在六月二十九的時候拆糧山海行動正提出啊我們已經超過第二階段的連署數了所以罷糧又進入一個新的階段哇經過了被這麼多人十萬人上街抗議的國民黨再加上這個看起來在基隆馬上就有這麼多人是願意站出來連兩階段的連署都已經過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7266.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7269.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這時候的國民黨會想要什麼當然就是害怕下一波的大罷免潮發生嘛所以當然是要加嚴這個罷免的制度嘛怎麼樣加嚴罷免制度最好就是把大家不想拿出來的身份證影本把它加到條件裡面最好啊所以你看看他們的版本就是這樣嘛所以7月4號 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7289.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7302.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
當然當時委員會就發生了第一波的衝突嘛好啦在以為在委員會這邊已經擋下來了沒有想到竟然是近乎二讀就直接跳到說由國民黨召開協商就是今天的會議啊好 那我們把這個歷史還原了大家記憶還原不要只採取片段式的記憶要回憶就通通想起來要回憶就大家從頭到尾來說不要只有講這種片段式的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7318.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7337.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好那第二個如果要從舊法條來講好了啦來啦那為什麼現在新的今天提出來的兩個版本裡面是只有國民的只有國民身份證影本和發證日期大家現在有沒有在實務上看到我們因為為了要防害詐騙這樣的狀況的時候防害詐騙狀況的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7342.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7345.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那會加上什麼樣的條件?其實有啊,蝦皮的實名認證制有加上發照日期了。你去換身份,你去要辦信用卡的時候,也有加上身份證的換證日期了。這表示加填換證日期是一個社會可接受的增加信用的條件嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7364.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7379.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以加換證日期是一個有道理的狀況為什麼?因為他不用把身份證留在別人那裡他只要在填的時候多填一個就好啦跟直接附上身份證引本整個圖鑑完全不一樣嘛所以完全不一樣的狀況下當然吳炳銳和蔡英宇當時的版本是加換證日期是符合現代現代的狀況的啊國民黨現在提出來的身份證引本是不一樣的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7390.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7401.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以主席我在這裡我用道理跟你講道理這才是剛剛什麼人家講的啊立法院是好好講道理的地方我現在就跟你講道理啊講道理是社會現行的狀況加換證日期跟加身份證影本是完全不同的狀況在實務的層次上面也完全已經得到不同的共識性了嘛好那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7415.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7422.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
如果今天要認真討論條文那我們到底要改到什麼程度我們可以討論主席你今天是做一個協調會的主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7424.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7428.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
現在民眾黨也走啦 他說他有行程走啦 國民黨 欸 登登那 我不曉得今天的協商 等一下主席你要做出什麼樣的裁決 主席我們的國會影像都在錄 國會影像都在錄嘛 後面電視台也在錄嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7446.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7446.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
張雅琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7466.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7482.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 謝謝主席我想我們今天有聲音嗎我想我們今天討論這個選罷法草案其實是關乎了台灣的民主制度這是一個非常嚴肅的事情因為我想你問任何一個人要參與聯署的時候必須把你的身份證拿出來這難度絕對是非常非常高的而且這絕對會造成我們這個詐騙的問題如果你現在把 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7487.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7490.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
一、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7514.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7533.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
可能會造成未來這個詐騙橫行的問題再來第二個部分就是說其實呢剛剛薄洋委員其實也有說了嘛最主要的造假大戶其實是國民黨啦但是國民黨提出這個我也是覺得是蠻可笑的啦而且我們如果要討論這個這麼嚴肅的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7534.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7560.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
其實我們應該要開公聽會上面諮詢專家學者的意見好好地來審議看如何保障民眾的罷免權的時候呢我們也可以來避免這個造假的問題可是我們這一次並沒有經過任何的公聽會來討論有關這個身份證的這個問題所以我自己會認為說其實有非常多的民間團體也有提出一些相關的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7561.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7562.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝張雅琳委員我們再來請王美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7587.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7591.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
主席 噢 等很久了 多久了主席 感謝 給我這個機會啦因為今天 我覺得說大家要協商說這個選法法的時候是大家互相尊重問題出一台 要怎麼去改進嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7609.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7612.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
不是說跟我們說出來民進黨說出來又不行國民黨說出來又可以這樣不好這樣不是叫做協商大家尊重的意見我們一個國家要進步就是要發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7624.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7629.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
覺得要如何補充要如何改善像現在大家的爭議點就是一方面大家要新聞局的議案本另外一方面新聞局的議案本的個資在報導誰要罷免的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7649.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7650.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
因為有很多我想要罷免,但是為了要押韻新聞局的顧慮,所以我們去報導被誰想要做的工作,說實在我們這樣也不好啦,我看到剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7667.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7669.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
一檔會遭料,另外一檔會遭料, 我覺得大家是互相尊重, 因為協商當中,一點點真的說不完啦, 我也感謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7682.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7687.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
主席給我們大家有表達的機會,因為我們的選法法的門檻像剛才說的,我們不能自己自毀自己,要適用在後面,也沒有人這麼發生、這麼行的,我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7704.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7705.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7723.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7745.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
主席就算了,這是最重要的,我是要來請教我們的主席,醫生。好,我們謝謝王美和委員,那個事由幹事長跟議員,培宇還沒講,因為培宇還沒講,我們就請培宇講,因為現在大家,好,培宇講完我再來做宣告,好來,請培宇。 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7748.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7758.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好,謝謝主席。既然要上歷史課,我來幫大家把時間軸拉遠一點,也幫主席複習。大家都說身份證交出來有資安的問題,剛剛美會委員也說了, |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7762.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7773.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
交出身份證大家會害怕我要提醒大家為什麼會害怕小的時候我爸爸說不要碰政治因為會叫國民黨點名做記號以前那個時代大家對於國民黨的威權統治如果都還記得所以我要提醒大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7781.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7797.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
現在所有人在擔心的,當我交出身分證,當我就是被認證我是要反對某一個政黨的人,請問那個民主的機制如何運轉下去?今天國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都已經不在這裡了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7798.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7812.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
但是他們就算在這裡我也不認為他們願意承認威權時代留下來的那個記憶的遺緒還在非常多台灣人民的心中所以他們今天做出這個非常荒謬的條文我要說的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7813.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7839.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
不是只有條文本身有資安的問題而是他背後如何想像台灣人民把自己身份交出去把身份證交出去他們如何對台灣人民交代再來大家最近都有看到NHK紀錄片在講各自被濫用的問題還有講中共對於全世界都有這種資安的問題請問國民黨或是民眾黨的委員你們自己要不要在這個議題上對台灣人民有所交代如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7840.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7868.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
如同剛剛司法委員有提醒主席也請主席等一下做出裁示如果今天的發言跟協商只是一個過水根本就已經準備好明天到院長那邊才要做實質的協商那我要再次提醒主席你身為今天協商的主席你必須要去呼應回應我們在這件事情上的擔心跟疑慮不要讓我們陪你坐在這邊聊天講故事我們很願意主張我們的論述我們也很願意友善的提醒國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7869.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7897.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
跟民眾黨的委員對於相關的疑慮他們完全不考慮但是並不代表我們今天要坐在這裡陪主席或是陪已經離開的國民黨跟民眾黨玩這樣的遊戲好 謝謝各位委員我想今天很感謝大家大家都不空來參與那個是要我先講完因為大家一直在問我現在要怎麼做覺得喬維尼一直在笑我跟各位講 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7898.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7918.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我現在一定要依立法院執行實施法來做出我的裁示因為我們黨團協商今天不是主條討論今天是黨團協商一定要三個黨做成結論達成共識現在民主黨他說他先離開啦我也不能去制止他說你一定要坐在這邊跟大家一起協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7920.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7941.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
國民黨我們也離開了所以我們很難達成共識那依照我們立法院執行其實法71條沒有辦法達成共識其實我剛才就要宣布可以宣布散會的但是我已經承諾大家我要聽大家把意見表達完畢所以大家都已經有把自己的意見有做表達了所以現在才說下去你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7947.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7965.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
但是這麼說就不會達成共識啊沒有啦我明天我還是依照我的職責我要做出以下宣告有關本日之協商會議本席擬具結論無效就是你剛剛說要讓我發言完啊就是你剛剛說要讓我發言完立次選罷法的協商至少都協商兩次以上立次選罷法的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7974.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7990.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
由委員會的審查：還有兩次以上的朝野協商：司令委員不要當過我對您的尊重：司令委員不要當過我對您的尊重：今天就是過水：今天就是演技：今天就是虛晃一朝零四年：你是歷史的罪人今天就是過水： |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8003.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8003.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
請審議案 |