| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e910ea1e62573b11ecd7d6d6b6b2497a86059d4d42a7fce21d33afd8c2bae42685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-23T09:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：財政、內政兩委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
3298 |
| 委員發言時間 |
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1907.585 |
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這不等一下我們先下去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1940.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1947.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
財政、內政兩委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具《地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1965.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1972.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
政府官員財政部李慶華理事長負稅署宋秀玲宋署長行政院主計總署公務預算處李培源檢任視察內政部民政司劉立芳專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1997.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2001.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
經濟部地質調查及礦業管理中心賴清亮副主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2011.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2024.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們要請各委員、黨團的代表、政府官員、次長、署長分別就本次協商主題地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案表達意見我們就到下面進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2113.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2115.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2128.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2150.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
在113年5月6日 已經連席會議審查過了提案要職賴士葆跟副委員也都有說了大家看一下書面的資料上面有我們就不再贅述那我們來看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2152.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2179.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那時候我們也是理事長也有回應這個委員的提案這個資料也有那最後有關賴士葆結論我們財政部這邊的說法是賴士葆本人提案第四條第一項地方稅範圍定名為中央立法之地方稅及副公務員提案將地方稅擬定為中央立法所定的地方稅並增訂同條第三項這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2182.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2206.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
定明地方政府開徵這特別的稅科臨時稅科及附加稅科不適用第一項徵收率條高30%限制與第四條原立法一直相符這是財政部的看法所以尊重委員會的審議結果那之前我們已經聽取說明我們委員會已經聽取說明、詢答還有經過大體討論那基因討論後已經有達成共識全案審查完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2212.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2236.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
審查結果是全案保留我們送院會處理這個是上一次開會的這個決議所以決議就是併案擬具審查報告提報院會然後院會進行二讀前要經黨團協商這就是我們今天進行協商的目的然後討論本案時羅昭吉文他會補充說明我今天來補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2238.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2238.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
國務院議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2254.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2276.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝主席因為就是有意見才會保留到政黨來進行協商雖然字眼上增加不多賴版跟副版其實條文上還只有一兩次的差異而已但是這裡頭最主要會無法達成公示的幾項原因我做一個比較敘述性的說明第一個因為這個其實親耳道有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2277.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2300.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為個案修法的疑慮有相關的訴訟案件目前還在纏訟當中特別是花蓮縣的部分跟殺死業者之間所引發的一連串的爭議跟行政糾結從105年到現在一直在纏訟當中這個我讓主席瞭解一下所以這個此時此刻修法恐怕會落入個案修法的口實這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2302.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2305.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
原條文第四條有規範30個人限制,卻限縮在所謂的中央立法所定的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2318.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2334.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那也就是說只要是地方新增的這個稅源就沒有受這個比例上的限制那新增的稅源的部分有地方的相關條文是第三條你如果沒有一個比例上的限制的話那恐然無法預期那個稅率是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2334.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2357.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
也就是說變成地方政府的整個地方自治的這個權力變毫無可以預測或依循所以它幾倍就變幾倍變成這種狀況所以說如果要修這條法的話嚴格來說也要附帶連同第三條一併來做修正這樣才會有一個比較有完整性 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2364.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2378.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第四個部分是說其實地方稅法通則就財政部也好或學者也好大家都有類似的看法財政部也委託過研究就認為這個其實限制太多應該修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2382.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2404.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
陳委員前兩天主持的這個公聽會當中,我們也不斷提到說要充實地方的這個財源,增加他的自主能力,地方稅法通則應該要修。您後來做成的決議也是這樣子嗎?所以地方稅法通則其實老實講,對大部分的這個地方政府來說的話是看得到吃不到。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2405.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2432.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
或即便吃得到也吃一點點然後因為只想可以吃一點點他就是要想要吃很大口所以產生了今天這個很大的爭議想成今天這個很大的爭議說源頭還是這一部法案呢基本上應該要去面對要去修然後要一個同盤的考量就如同我剛剛講說第四條跟第三條有連帶關係那是不是其他的這個稅源有可能再有一點開拓性不要太多的限制性這個其實基本上我是認為那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2435.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2455.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
財政部責無旁貸而且次長這個是專家當中的專家署長也算是在次長之後而已所以財政部最強的兩位稅制專家都在這邊如果他們想不出來誰能夠想得出來而且講白一點我認為這個條文一來真的要請財政部費刑去了解地方政府的一些相關的需求他們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2461.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2461.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
懲罰財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2491.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2516.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以說我是覺得是那個這個部分希望財政部再根據上一次的這個我們的公聽會的結論陳委員所做當任主席所做的結論還有今天這個政黨協商能夠盡速壓個日期好了看能不能在六個月內提出一些那相關的一個草案這個很重要提出一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2517.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2517.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
郭委員有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2538.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2551.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主要是第四條的部分因為是委員提案嘛那委員提案的部分主要就是讓第四條的立法能夠說得更清楚因為本來我們第四條的立法本頁也是以中央立法的地方稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2552.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2570.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這次委員提案基本上是文字上的明確化當然剛才郭委員講的這件事情涉及到地方政府他們開徵的權責那要不要把那個現行我們這個第三條有些限縮的範圍要不要再 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2570.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2587.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
放寬目前我們第三條限縮的範圍其實都有通案性的當時訂立的時候有全國全盤性的考慮當然需不需要再另外就是因為這次配合採訪法我們都覺得說地方稅法通則可能應該要並同做一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2588.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2588.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2611.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2624.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我講這個題目是非常中性的而且很專業的題目我主要當初提這個修法主要是看到過去的立委也是財稅專家曾鉅威 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2628.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2650.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他有一篇的在經濟日報吧有一篇的社論還有一篇的專欄特別提到所以現在來講的話我們地方稅法通則講說讓地方可以百分之三十裡面的調高的部分調高也調低但事實上基本上是調高啦那就就裡面來講的話事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2652.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2653.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
中央立法地方稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2665.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2684.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那這個就尊重地方政府,我去強調,等於把這個權力下放給地方。我要出來之前,剛剛為什麼不要玩呢?因為還接收到兩個媒體的這個,這個林立倫之聲的記者,這個題目,怎麼中心的題目為什麼還要? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2685.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2686.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2704.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2704.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
中央請客 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2734.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2755.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
目前來講整個的趨勢大家的希望能夠給地方多一點的彈性你現在就是說除了他等於是除了中央訂的條30%以外其他部分呢就尊重地方他也不是地方政府要怎麼調就怎麼調還要經過他的地方的議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2756.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2774.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
要議會同意,要議會通過,因為沒有過也不能做,他還不是說能夠地方政府去來獨裁,所以這個來講的話,我是希望說看會怎麼樣啦,這個可以有共識,那就通過吧,如果不能有共識,那就送到院委處理吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2777.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2803.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我剛綜合大家的意見這個剛剛郭委員講得很好這個當然但是你說所謂的個案修法那立法院常常就是遇到事情重大事情才會進行修法因為我們有時候比較慢通常沒有先進一步再修法我們應該檢討而不是說比如說像比如說消防我們說發生什麼消防事故的時候我們就開始萬馬十萬火急的開始修這個消防相關的法令所以為個案修法不等於是壞事 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2804.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2822.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
反而我們要檢討說為什麼我們都是要發生事情才去修法,因為我們比較,立法院的同仁們,我們比較遠見我們還應該事先修法,但是事後亡羊補牢猶未完矣,我們還是要跟得上這個時代的這個改變嘛,那剛剛,我剛剛舉消防的案例當例子,不是說未更修法就不好, |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2823.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2823.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
臺灣民眾議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2845.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2872.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
共同的這個想法所以我覺得承諾剛剛理事長所說的這個地方稅法通則我禮拜一也有講本來也是應該修你們也有提出來我也是很支持所以市長也的確是全盤的部分也應該是要去檢討我們才會往前走你們遂者要跟上那這個關於這個單項法律委員已經有賴委員跟副委員都已經提出來我們就往前走那後面你們該修的也要跟上不要說因為這個那我也贊同你說要研究所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2872.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2873.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我也支持你的想法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2887.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2888.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
財政部長財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2918.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2945.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我還有不同意見謝謝主席的回應第一個基本上往往有些重大事件的時候修法確實是有不是沒有但是這件事情不是事後現在是進行中ING它並不是事後也就是這個所有個案修法的疑慮在這邊而且在司法訴訟當中有兩兆雙方任何修法都會影響個別權益的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2947.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2965.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以說這個基本上要慎重的一個原因是在這邊那第二個部分呢基本上我的論點其實都一樣就是說地方需要多一點稅源地方資助 地方財政需要更多的資助然後地方稅法通則需要修但是問題是怎麼修啊不是這樣修啦所以說我的保留意見是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2965.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2979.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以我覺得剛剛還有一點就呼籲一下賴士葆委員就是說第三條的部分其實是一個關鍵的限制條款因為它限制實在有六大限制實在限制非常的多因此其實要動的話應該連同第三條一起動那配套來做處理這樣會比較完整一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2981.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2998.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
否則的話真的會陷入個案的修法的疑慮單純的用這一條來說那事實上我說的這個個案修法事實上是有一些司法案件正在訴訟當中因此我認為說這部法案需要修但是怎麼修應該比較全面的修讓地方政府更有裁員的修而不是為個案而修以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3001.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3017.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我再提一下這不是什麼個案因為這個案子我在第十屆就提出來了第十屆因為屆期不連續那時候副委沒有提案只有我一個人提案只有我一個人提案在第十屆我就提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3017.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3045.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主要各位都知道我們當立委這麼久就是你想修這個想修那個一定是看各界各界名家各個教授他們的看法因為那天我就看到這個曾俊輝修了這一篇我覺得說這個很有道理喔來著手來修所以我第十屆開始修但第十屆沒有過所以屆期不連續那這一屆得又拿出來修那故事整個story是這樣子的不需要什麼都把它政治化的時候戴上一個帽子不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3046.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3061.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我尊重國務委員的立場 那就看我們主席怎麼裁定吧 好不好好 我尊重大家的意見事實上立法院法令本來就會影響到很多的個案比如說我們上一屆修民法的利息本來是20% |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3062.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3088.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
官員修正是16%嘛我記得那同時一定有很多訴訟案件是有什麼28跟16%的案子在那裡發生嘛一定有很多很多的個案這個毫無疑問的立法就是影響到百姓的這個但是我們是民意代表所以我們還是要做我們應該做的決定不過如果今天大家如果覺得說沒有辦法達成一致那我們就一樣就是保留我們還有還可以送到這個還有朝野協商這個階段嘛所以我們就保留然後送這個朝野協商讓他們還有一個月可以去討論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3088.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3092.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
賴委員的專業我都沒有看證據我就看你的來做參考以上兩案均保留送院會協商謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3121.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3145.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席主席要簽了這個保留保留可以送院這還是要簽啦那個貴委員這還是要簽啦送院會前這還是要簽保留嘛送出去協商沒有就保留啊就是保留送協商啊就有主持過這個大家有來參加啊好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝送院會好 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3155.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3170.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
今後即是差了一個檔案? |
| IVOD_ID |
16200 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16200 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024102262 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-23T09:00:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-23T09:55:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |