| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d910ea1e62573b11eb6918ac9a81339756059d4d42a7fce2178b3cab570d4ba925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
17159 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:01 - 13:17:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員10人已組法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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1785.885 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年10月21日星期一上午9時1分至下午1時27分地點紅樓森林一會議室出席委員陳永康等11人列席委員林德福等14人列席人員外交部部長林佳龍及所屬人員 |
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1807.652 |
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1834.487 |
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主席林昭及委員議軍報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二,邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況並被質詢外交部部長林佳龍報告委員羅美林等19人質詢均由外交部部長林佳龍、亞希及非洲獅師長賀忠義、歐洲獅師長黃軍耀、領事事務局局長何振環及財團法人台灣民主基金會執行長廖達祺等即席答覆決定 |
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1835.507 |
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1855.157 |
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一、登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二、委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供之資訊請外交部於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員應指定期限者從期鎖定三、委員羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
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1860.841 |
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1865.316 |
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議事會稍晚一點再確認請議事人員宣讀報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1866.869 |
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1868.11 |
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危機及如何確保關鍵物資自主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、 |
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1895.07 |
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1900.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
糧食安全及醫療物資供應無預知因應處作為並被質詢。」宣讀完畢我們介紹在場的委員陳永康委員介紹與會官員國防部部長顧立雄 |
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1922.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1933.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
全民防衛動員署署長﹐白潔龍軍醫局局長﹐蔡建松政風市專門委員﹐陳寶倫情報參謀次長﹐謝日生作戰及計畫參謀次長﹐市次長﹐陳文新 |
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1953.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1978.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通信電子資訊參謀次次長鄧恩年國家中山科學研究院院長李士強國家安全局副局長黃明昭 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1983.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2004.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
法務部調查局副局長 孫成一國內安全調查處處長 陳宇源國家安全維護處處長 葉立欽海洋委員會海巡署副署長 謝慶清巡防組組長 廖雲紅 |
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2016.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2036.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
特別行動資源中心副主任蘇全成內政部警政署防制組組長陳百祿保安組組長林溫柔內政部消防署整備應變組組長劉鴻汝 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2042.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2056.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
內政部替代藝技社會任性訓練執行中心副執行長卓煥鑫農業部綜合規劃師副司長黃興達畜牧師檢任記證馮一月農糧署署長姚世元 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2073.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2096.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
漁業署代理署長王正芳、經濟部國營事師長胡文忠、國家發展委員會經濟發展副處長陳美菊、國家科學及技術委員會南部科學園區管理局副局長李信昌、 |
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2102.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2130.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
工程技術研究發展處專門委員張嘉恆、交通部綜合規劃師司長張垂榮、航港局副局長陳冰泉、數位發展部主任秘書胡貝蒂、熱性建設師副司長吳明仁、 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2134.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2162.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
知通安全署副組長陳思漢衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀醫事師專門委員郭威中食品藥物管理署研究員王兆儀補充介紹羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2168.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2174.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那請問在場的委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處好 議事錄確認 |
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2179.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2183.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
危機以及我方相關的應處作為進行報告並被質詢,請國防部顧立雄部長上台報告。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2213.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2234.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主席、各位委員先進以下請就針對解放軍未來可能透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自主、關鍵產業基礎、設置能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無疑之應作為就本部的部分作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2235.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2249.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
本部部份實施報告,依簽言,中國近年應用心理、輿論及論述專案等複合式手段進行灰色地帶洗腦,服以其內國法妄圖合理化,對我海域執法正當性齊搭。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2250.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2266.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
其台海內水化、台灣內政化目標混淆國際社會對台灣主權認知,並試圖削弱我軍民士氣今年以來,中共更藉聯合立憲2024AB等針對性維台軍演,破壞了台海區域和平穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2267.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2287.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
面對共軍持續性灰色地帶壓迫乃至可能之高強度封鎖等威脅國軍保持綿密的艱增戒備並適時應對及維護我海空域主權台灣位處印太區域第一島鏈樞紐周邊海域為全球貿易重要航道共軍的頻繁侵擾行動將牽動國際經濟危機絕非只有民主社會所能做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2294.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2305.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國軍署耿續強化作戰準備以達備戰方向備戰之目標外並持續協力各部委後職全社會防衛任性、跨部委整備狀況以建立合屬作業機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2306.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2330.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
本部依據《全民防衛動員準備法》第8條規定擔護行政院全民防衛動員準備業務匯報秘書單位職責並於111年1月1日成立全民防衛動員署整合跨部會撤進各項動員準備計劃全動署成立後,依《全民防衛動員署組織法》第7條規範於112年2月呈報行政院核定建立各部會定期至全動署核屬作業機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2331.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2355.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
包括檢討、戰略物資囤儲、糧食多元自主、通訊備援韌性及醫療量能整備等議題迄今各部會相關韌性計畫陸續奉行政院核定並納入各年度預算、編列及執行而加強戰略物資儲備、我國石油及天然氣等能源多仰賴進口經濟部已規劃增建儲存設備、分散運補地點及加強調度台性等措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2356.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2377.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
並透過分散、強固及防衛等作為強化電網韌性,亦針對水資源之戰備需求遲遲擴充,以增進緊急供水調度能力。3、厚植糧食自主量能為提升國內的糧食自主性,農業部依法建立稻米安全存量,每月定期盤點儲備情形並採分散囤儲方式,分囤於全國公糧倉庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2378.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2407.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
另外擴大雜糧供應量能採取輔導種植、甘薯等作物提高國產糧食供應率確保遭封鎖時持續滿足生存所需是完備數位通訊網絡我國國際通訊以聯外海欄為主若海欄遭受破壞將嚴重影響行政機關運作及指揮管制效能數位部已推動應變或暫時應用新興科技強化通訊網絡數位韌性及支持數位韌性至跨業者行動網絡接取驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2409.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2434.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
等計劃強化網路備援備以緊急狀態使有效維繫國內外訊息傳遞五、提升醫療救護韌性為因應平時可能大量傷患組織並因應戰傷醫療需求維護部整合內政部消防署及本部經與局自今年起推動韌性國家醫療整備計畫透過設備韌性維護、醫療讓人整備及人員護人經濟等策略提升我國大量傷患及戰傷醫療等 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2436.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2462.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
戰犯醫療應處任性強化醫食人員救護技能以確保危機時刻軍運傷患救治效能及提高存活力6.強化實兵演習驗證各部會除擬定各項任性整備外為首席應變及持續測驗方向亦透過年度實兵演習、交叉驗證激發成果包括辦理油氣電力給水、糧食及大量傷患 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2463.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2491.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
救護等演練已有助滾動修正以及研擬遲疑階段任性經濟方案三、後續作為一、管制計劃執行進度上述各項計劃及應處作為均同步納入各部會動員準備分類計劃之內涵並撤辦各地方政府擬定執行計劃本部全動署將懇需透過跨部會、地方政府協調會議及合署作業掌握各項計劃執行進度及成果且持續強固我國緊急時期之應變任性 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2492.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2518.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
而持續辦理動員紡品,為激勵各部會及地方政府落實各項動員及應變整備,本部全動署每年5至8月編組專家學者及部會代表對中央各機關及地方政府實施動員業務紡品,實行成效納入行政院動員匯報年度會議考核及檢討,有助相互觀摩學習,將梗系辦理督考集合以此恆提升國家韌性實力。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2534.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2535.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
其他部會機關報告請參閱書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2541.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2558.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2580.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2600.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
在2021年的時候,美軍將領提出了《2027年中國攻台論》一開始的時候,各國的智庫和軍事專家都聚焦在討論說中國有沒有能力來入侵台灣直到2022年中共還台軍演,一直到今年的連台歷戰A跟B |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2604.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2629.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
各智庫我們可以看得到大家的這個討論跟評估是由中國有沒有能力來入侵台灣到現在談論的是封鎖必非是攻台那部長我想了解就是說那我國的態度一直以來就是備戰不求戰那作為防衛的這個應付那如果遇到長期的這個封鎖我們要如何因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2633.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2635.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是否能夠提供更多的能源? |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2652.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2663.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
共軍可以透過這個海空的封鎖來鼓勵台灣重創我國的這個經濟那請問部長這部分我們要如何處理如果我們面對長期封鎖的話我們要如何來應應呢請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2665.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2689.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
跟委員報告我首先因為最近大家都在講封鎖這個議題跟封鎖因為最近這個聯合立見說維台的這個封控它這樣的維台封控是一種操演或者你因為它用英文是一個操演的一個性質它沒有劃定這一個詳細的經緯度也沒有一個禁航區的一個公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2690.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2713.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那我們來講的話所謂真正的封鎖在國際法上面的定義其實是阻止所有國家的基建進出敵國管轄的港口、機場或海岸線的一種交戰行動那通常由軍隊來主導所以部長你的意思是說他目前你是定義為他是灰色地帶的侵擾而已嗎對,那現在的這個演習算是一種灰色地帶所以你不認為他是有這個封鎖的演練嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2717.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2739.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
算是一種操演算是一種操演他沒有真正的畫色所有的這個我們這個台海周邊的這個所謂的進航區然後限制所有國家的基建進出那這樣子的話是一種演練那所以真正的實施封鎖的話他就會被按照聯大的331、4號決議的話封鎖就會被視為一種侵略行為是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2745.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2773.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
是一種戰爭的行為這個實施封鎖也要必須要正式對外公告然後通知所有的國家包括封鎖的範圍是部長您剛才講的是軍演的這個部分我們想的是未來其實美國的智庫都接連的示警說中國封鎖台灣的風險是高的我們不能不做預作準備不能說它只是一個灰色地帶的侵擾而已萬一萬一我們看到烏俄戰爭的這個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2775.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2777.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
中華人民共和黨和共和黨和共和黨和共和黨和共和黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2782.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2786.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們也不能忽視它可能有封鎖的一天這完全同意委員的意見也就是說我們現在國軍面對這樣子它可能由訓來轉戰或由言來轉戰部長您自己之前都有提了很多次了有言轉戰的機率也很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2806.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2830.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
可是它這個戰可能不是真正的入侵,而是用這個封鎖,萬一各種可能性都有,那如果是封鎖呢?讓所有的這個船,本席剛剛有提到就是說我們非常仰賴這個海上貿易,如果說被各大港口都被封鎖了,我們要如何因應這部分?國防部到目前為止沒有推測嗎?我跟委員報告兩點,第一點不是我們非常仰賴我們的人員進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2832.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2854.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
國際社會也非常仰賴海灣海峽的整個海上運輸的通道是沒有錯整個海上運輸的通道假設被封鎖的話影響了這個根據CSIS在應該是在今年吧所以我說海上貿易不管進口入口我們都非常仰賴影響整個全球的經濟是非常非常巨大那我們國防部的因應知道是什麼呢萬一被封鎖了他不是真的要打你 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2856.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2870.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
就是說假設它真的造成我剛剛定義的所謂那個封鎖的這樣子一個行為是屬於一種戰爭行為的一種太陽的話我們國軍整個就進入了緊急應變作戰的階段了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2871.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2893.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以還是非得走到那一步對不對對,如果它真的宣告我現在就定義上國際法上面的封鎖因為大家一直在講說現在的什麼不管是灰色地帶的洗澡或者是這個蟒蛇的戰略這還是一種封控的一種演習還是一種軍事的恫嚇跟灰色地帶的洗澡但是它真正要引起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2894.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2912.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
引發一種封鎖的行動的話這是國際法上有定義什麼叫封鎖是一種戰爭行為我們國軍要進入了應起作戰的一個階段那麼整個國家防衛的韌性就要開始展開這就是為什麼說如果有這個可能性存在我們為什麼要加強全民防衛的韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2914.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2938.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
人員的供給的一個情況當然我們不可否認最弱的當然就是我們的天然氣的一個進口那天然氣的進口我想經濟部也許可以更進一步的來回答這個問題因為我們那個時候如果進入了這樣子的一個狀態假設假設真的進入這樣的一個狀態的話我們的工業生產是不是還存活還要繼續那我們的天然氣的發電廠是不是還要存續 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2939.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2949.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
既然部長已經做球給經濟部經濟部來說明一下這部分這也是剛好本席接下來要提的這個問題就是說我們目前呢2023年台灣將近有70%的能源是仰賴進口那目前石油佔了43.7%部長請回沒關係煤炭是28.8%天然氣是20.2% |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2961.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2983.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那剛剛部長有提到的就是天然氣的這部分那天然氣的這個安全庫存量說實在的比起這個原油也好或者是煤炭也好其實是相對來講是安全庫存量是比較偏低的這部分的話如果說以後萬一我們遇到這個中共來做這個封鎖的話我們要如何處置呢我們有這麼多的這個能源是靠進口的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2983.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3010.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
大概跟委員報告第一個我們現在的這個法定的存量雖然是這樣但是我們目前真正實際上的存量大概都遠高於現在這個法定的存量那當中確實比較少的就是天然氣的部分所以經濟部已經在大概規劃有三個天然氣的接收站如果這個三個天然氣接收站能夠順利的完成的話我們大概法定的存量大概到達14天以上沒有問題那至於說14天到底夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3011.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3019.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們大概也會有經濟部來規劃整個的電力如果說是因為天然氣的關係的話因為我們2025年我們電力的供應的話是電力結構的目標液化天然氣我們需要發電主力大概是50%我們達到50% |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3035.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3057.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個安全的庫存量如果這麼低的話那對如何因應這也是本市想要問的對就是跟委員報告就是說如果說真的是在非常極端的狀況下面的話天然氣的這個機組如果沒有辦法就是我們的量如果14天沒有辦法的話我們基本上大概現在有規劃就是有一些已經除役的煤的電廠可能會變成一些國安專用的緊急備用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3059.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3080.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
的基礎,因為我們煤的存量會遠超過天然氣的存量,所以大概目前會有這樣的規劃,但是因為現在實際上這個都還是在規劃當中,那目前大概14天的天然氣的量,再加上如果封鎖的時候本來的用電量就會減少,所以這個14天的安全存量,事實上在真正使用上面也會比14天來得更多。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3082.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3108.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
看到你們的那個報告有提到就是說二階、三階如果是在2025、2026如果開始來來完工來做試營運的話我們的這個天然氣的安全庫存量其實就會來到14天嘛可是本席也看到像四階、五階、六階、七階其實這些這些點的這個不管擴建或興建也好到目前看起來其實好像是還是遇到了一些問題像這個四階台電的基隆 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3110.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3113.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
計用協和這個地點我們看到環平還要補建然後因故展延類似這種看起來不是那麼的順利這幾個點的話如果說都能夠順利來興建或是擴建的話那對於天然氣安全庫存量是不是這個提升是有很大的幫助呢就如何去克服這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3135.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3151.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以這個部分也是我們也希望大家能夠互相配合當然除了四階上確實現在在環評上面有一些困難但是事實上五階、六階、七階在環評上面都還算蠻順利的所以我們大概是有信心能夠去達到這樣子的目標是世界的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3153.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3171.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這些接收站的這個設立或者是說這個儲存槽的這個擴建等等其實這也是國安問題所以一般的國民有沒有意識到這一點到底我們有沒有說經濟部也有讓民眾知道說其實我們國家面臨是怎樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3173.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3198.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這部分可能要跟民眾多說一些是 我們會遵照委員的指示因為我們本來在溝通的時候我們也會把這個當作是重點是 那還有一點司長我想請問一下就是我們的石油那2023年我有看到這個資料就是說我國石油的進口有69.1%是來自於中東那中國作為全球最大的石油進口國2023年中國的進口原油是5.083億 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3202.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3220.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在中東的國家經濟當中它失去了非常關鍵的這個地位那我們會不會擔心說有哪一天中東國家恐怕會受到這個中國的壓力那像台灣停止供應石油會不會這種事情發生?可能嗎?這造成台灣很大的衝擊耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3221.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3243.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
對我想一個根本報告就是我們事實上對於石油的採購一直在朝向多元化所以大概目前看起來雖然有中東的比重很高但事實上從美國從其他國家的進口的這個數目也在慢慢的提升當中因為我所看到的是中東這個比例非常的高因為這當中有很大部分是對就很大部分是來自中東但是基本上我們這多元化的事實上是沒有停滯過 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3245.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3259.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那未來的規劃呢?就是我剛剛有跟委員報告我看到美國本來我們就已經有跟他進口原油對將來會提高這個比例對那其他考量的這個國家呢因為我看到中東是佔了很大的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3260.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3266.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
對於國家的經濟發展、工業發展可能會有很大的衝擊所以這部分的話還是要請經濟部來留意我看到這個天然氣我們也是跟很多國家進口有高達11個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3276.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3289.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
目前看到石油的部分我們是比較集中在中東所以這個部分可能要特別的來留意因為我們很怕雞蛋太過於集中對台灣來講這部分是一個很不好的現象所以這部分原油的採購可能要請經濟部這邊來多加留意當然我們所擔心的就是說因為我們現在石油的產品對於國家總能量我們消耗是將近五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3306.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3308.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我之前看過一個美國的報告就是說在戰爭的時候可能運輸系統會多需要一些這些原油所以我們有沒有所謂的這個封鎖之間或戰爭當中有所謂的互相配給的這種計畫我們有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3324.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3336.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
因為我們有50%在工業部門有30%在運輸系統那往後我們有沒有想說以後這個部分有要互相來做這個調配有沒有這個計畫就是說如果是真的進入到剛才這個所謂委員所的一個封鎖狀況的話那我們本來國家就有一個這個物資動員的一個準備的計畫是在推動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3343.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3369.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個東西最後對於這個油的部分對於油的部分基本上會是進行一些管制那基本上我們大概優先就是跟整個計畫上大概就是國防是第一優先那第二就是關於民生的是必須的是優先的然後第三個就是跟民生必須品的製造產業的相關那這三個優先我們會做一些調配大概這樣子OK好以上謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3373.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3401.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
謝謝羅美玲委員接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3408.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3410.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
是 陳委員部長您早 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3411.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3436.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
剛才聽取你的報告中間有幾個很重要的項目今天聽到你把它點出來了我覺得這個對所有的國人來講是一個很重要的說明但在這個前提下我也幫你再做一點補充您剛剛特別在這個灰色地帶的戰術因為有很多人關心所謂的封鎖您剛剛提到了就是說這是一個戰爭行為其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3439.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3464.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
不是一個單一對台而且它影響到整個國際的金融、能源、航運尤其是台灣海峽周遭因此剛才講的灰色區塊的戰術行動它是一種消耗戰那麼除了選項做封鎖以外就是Blockade以外它還有一個叫Cursive Quarantine就是威懾性的臨檢那這個就是屬於執法行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3465.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3479.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
他把範圍就跟Narrow down那這個東西呢我們是希望國內除了灰色地帶的軍事或者是軍事行動消耗戰以外另外有關在您的專家就在法律範圍的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3481.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3503.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們講的不是灰色地帶就是灰色區塊的國際法、海洋法、武裝衝突法這一段我希望未來在敘述的時候論述的時候讓國內了解一個封鎖不是單獨對台灣是對所有相關國家它造成的金融、國際的保險、物價的上漲那是一個非常大的衝擊我不認為中共在現階段會實施這個手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3505.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3533.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那麼這次誠如您講的它是drill 它不是exercise它只是單向的兵力配置顯示我到位並沒有演練出封鎖的行為那下面呢我就給您看這張我們國軍啊我想了解一下我們通知跟電子次長跟情報次長就是我們除了我們軍用的本身的專用的衛星頻道以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3534.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3535.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
在民用衛星 裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3538.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3567.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我們國軍能夠分享到多少頻道那這個可靠度在暫時尤其是機動台的部分因為這個是備援模式啦因為我們除了有機動的微波我們有機動台即使中華電信不能提供我們有機動台但數量會不夠但中華另外就是OneWeb速發部簽的這個對我們國軍頻寬跟我們使用到什麼位階 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3570.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3588.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個聯絡您這邊能不能說明一下各位我想現在OneWeb現在的品官就國軍的作戰需求來講現在是還到現在是不夠的我瞭解這個是確定當然要看OneWeb未來的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3592.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3597.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這張圖特別強調了一個是海瀾的圖跟世界連接圖第二個是海上交通線就是剛剛講我們要確保我們的航運暢通因為這下面顯示了海瀾的通訊量它是衛星通訊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3620.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3644.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
以現在OneWeb的速度來看是它的4000倍所以以衛星通信是不夠的所以海欖的可靠度維修那麼跟不同的海欖公司簽約那中華電信有簽約我們速發部應該也能夠掌握要能夠掌握海欖修復船它多久能夠到在這個修復過程中間我們的備援方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3646.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3660.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
透過第三地地面站再衛星跨接到海南再把信號回送這是一個選擇方案我希望我們國軍在這個備案的研究上面能夠多做一點琢磨有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3662.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3685.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
選項、方案,而不是只靠一項。」委員報告事實上已經有相關的但是我想我不適合在公開的這個場合來說明這個我們的相關的一個備援的一個方法是,我了解這個是不是也請我們速發部的同仁能夠幫忙說明一下請看這張圖這個是我們的部長您請回這個是我們連接外島的海嵐 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3693.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3715.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那麼因為兩年前馬祖海欖那個事件給我們一個很大的一個教訓就是經驗也累積也知道如果沒有及時的修復能力那這個就等於沒有手機了這個smartphone也沒有了甚至你的whatsapp你的line都不能通了那甚至影響最大的如果是通知到國際海欖的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3717.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3730.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
等於說我們及時的外匯存底的調撥就產生問題了那這個是根據我們公家的資料我改版重新經過校正把它的顯示出來的那這就是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3732.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3757.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
各個海欄連接處那麼海欄在陸上連接台的那個地方的安全可能在未來不管是寶二或者是由其他的民防單位這個要有演練因為脆弱度不僅只於上岸或者是走地下真正的那個控制中心是要很重要的我們再看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3760.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3788.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這張圖是跟經濟部有關的就是所有西岸的基礎建設因此海灘不容易變成兩棲登陸因此美方的致富就是說是將來可能就是把你的通訊、斷纜、通訊那中華電信跟我們經濟部都能夠掌握我們的發電、網路配電現在還有一個超高壓配電所的安危也是一個重要的防護的所以海纜 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3789.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3803.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
跟我們的電信、衛星跟微波這三個是相互支援那必須有一個整合計劃就是有一個最糟糕的情況發生的話有沒有辦法透過第三國第三地 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3805.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3820.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
然後衛星第三地再經過海欄再送回來這個我想在將來您在國際上面跟合作對象談判的時候要強化就像原來的這個OneWeb是在泰國在日本在關島 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3821.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3838.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那麼我們希望能夠未來如果持續有希望在台灣能夠設地面戰能夠自己掌控那這個圖看到右邊的那張圖其實就是我們的電網的脆弱度的超高壓那我們的政府原來是說五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3839.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3866.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
十年五千億現在總統是說要加快要電網的韌性因為我們不希望並不是發電設施並不是能源中斷而跳電而是電網的配電超高壓345千伏161千伏你兩個站一跳三分之一個台灣就沒電了那這個不是兩天三天修復的好的所以這個部分又影響了我們的通訊所以不管是能源、海纜、衛星 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3870.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3889.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
電輸送、配電,這個都是整合在一起當然這個不是您這個範疇我剛剛主要是提到的衛星通訊二胡戰爭期間,烏克蘭為維持網路暢通他的方法主要是節點有備份他轉移關鍵基礎設施到境外或第三地那用非同步軌道,中軌低軌的衛星 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3893.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3917.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
開放全國用戶漫遊當然STARLINK給他很大的服務他有8萬4千個台如果我們才7千個點這個不能比可是美國人替他付錢但是希望未來軍民都能夠手機能暢通維持軍政體系緊急服務對外跟國際的聲音能夠暢通鞏固民心 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3919.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3948.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
在今年的國慶我們總統也強調了團結台灣、共援夢想演說中多次強調的韌性提升國家整體的國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性這個東西雖然只是成立了跨部會的委員會可是因為我還是要強調因為我們目前還沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略必須用國家安全戰略做整合性的思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3949.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3969.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們去問的不是你的強而是最脆弱點這個部會的脆弱點不能解決那那個部會的強點並不能補足因此你看我們最後用一張圖這是一個結構性的細微圖它的思維包括糧食、醫療、法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3970.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3991.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
供應鏈、經濟、能源、電力、石油、天然氣、儲備在這個中間的問題必須要完全解決了才會去推外圍的軍事行動所以這個思維是做給我們做建設國家安全戰略跨部會協調所以不管是能源、經濟、通訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3995.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4012.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
醫療、整個社會福利再加上國防的支撐這是一個整體的思考我們希望我們的政府在任內要把國家安全辦理整合進我們所有的部會橫向的協調以上提供做參考謝謝你謝謝部長我再請您做一個指導是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4023.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4051.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
有關國家安全戰略把它整合進整合國防戰略跟社會韌性我特別強調美國的四年期國防總檢2017年已經終止了因為他覺得它裡面由下向上產生的很多的需求跟上向下的政策不能同步調因為我們明年可能要出QDR了是不是請部長在這個地方稍微琢磨一下也就是國防戰略的指導這個章節 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4053.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4082.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
必須要內容要充實一下因為沒有一個明確的指導因為上游沒有國家安全戰略那美國從國家安全戰略到國防戰略到國防軍事戰略然後再到作戰區的作戰計劃我們現在是QDR下面在兩年一本的國防報告書後面呢就是我們的軍事作戰計劃我們希望這個政策指導要有的延貫性有持續性那水平橫向的聯繫啊要能夠啊要徹底的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4083.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4099.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這點請部長做一點回應當然我在國安會任職的時候我有充分的體會到就是說我們要擬定一個非常具體的一個國家安全戰略是在我 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4100.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4124.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
一直在我的思考當中但其實它有點不太容易的原因是因為我們國家處境的特殊性我講一個很簡單例子我們跟台美之間我們就完全沒有辦法公開所以在國家安全戰略就是說我們跟它之間的這個交流基於台美之間的默契我們是沒有辦法的我們沒有辦法寫成一部我們怎麼樣來一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4128.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4152.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
一個...就是說日本他發現一個國家他不會去顧慮到說什麼跟什麼他跟美國之間的這個那我們就要顧慮到很多我們必須在這個所謂的這個印太區域國家的這個形成的協同嚇阻的這樣的一個部分就我們就必須要有很多隱晦那我們也不能沒有沒有辦法明白這樣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4154.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4165.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我覺得我們要試圖嘗試但是我個人是覺得還蠻困難的那...那...法務部長您可以這樣子有機密版有公開版 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4165.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4188.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那對國人來講還是要有一個簡述的、公開的...我也看過委員的意見就是說有公開感情版但是我很怕那個機密版就成為大家都想看的那個版那...那...那...你就...什麼事情越機密呢那個...那個就...就...因為這個是橫向跨部會協調一個重要的指標啦參考提供...提供您參考好好 謝謝...謝謝部長謝謝陳友康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4197.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4224.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
接下來請王定宇、趙偉上台質詢謝謝趙偉,先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長,在我開始今天詢問之前,有幾個案子還是要提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4226.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4240.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事原來公告招標的是不是磁扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4241.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4264.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
是不是在我質詢之後,把它拉下來重新公告,變成不是磁扣?防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的,這個我上次已經問過,我不重複了請部長查明,當時誰主導這個會議?跟委員報告,我們有經過去查證,沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在編審當中,所以... |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4268.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4297.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官願不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4299.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4323.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4327.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4343.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這樣放水過關的東西到暫時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題還是軍職 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4346.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4364.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4365.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4387.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4388.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4404.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個政風是人員部長我持見關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4409.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4431.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4433.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4460.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍針對那因為我也要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個電子發這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4463.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4477.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
法務部聯政署已經進來我想調查我們會做一個這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行我們不由國防部來做行政調查就由法務部聯政署他行政調查但是要處分喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4478.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4501.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4503.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4513.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的所以政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理我回到我今天要問的題目事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4527.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4547.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4549.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4556.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4563.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4583.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
應該我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4585.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4610.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為?quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4612.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4632.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
以中國來講他可能是用海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些行為這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4634.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4655.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是coast guard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4656.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4680.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為它是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4682.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4698.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4699.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4721.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的Cost Guard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡署也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生Quantum Team的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4722.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4739.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4741.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4765.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
封鎖這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4767.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4780.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4784.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4798.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4799.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4820.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
quarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4823.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4850.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4852.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4864.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4865.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4892.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4895.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4918.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那相關的這些部分我覺得可能不宜有的我們適合私底下了解或是機密會議我現在講就是說不管是quarantine或者是blockade這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效那我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4919.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4947.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4949.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4970.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4971.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4994.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4997.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5024.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Revise it修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5025.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5043.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5044.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5059.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5060.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5087.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5088.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5100.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
其他相關諮詢我私下再跟您溝通好謝謝謝謝王定宇召委部長請回接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5122.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5149.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5152.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5172.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所夜管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫因為有了能量以後每月 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5172.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5195.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5197.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5201.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
現在民眾要去哪?因為以前沒有那麼緊張啊已經很久沒那麼緊張以前防空洞在哪裡大家都知道那現在沒有了嘛那你現在因為我要的是具體的一個作為因為已經兩三年了然後剛剛講的還都是軍事動員的部分那個你只是比較精進就可以了因為那個平常都在做啊全動事的時候那時候也在做啊我們現在是指的是你全動署以後到底有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5227.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5240.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5244.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5258.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這一個在全動法我知道他本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5260.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5286.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5287.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5312.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
包括你的彈料的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5314.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5320.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5341.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5363.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5365.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5387.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講的各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5388.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5395.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以動員準備好韌性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有韌性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛韌性委員會因為我們看不出來他跟權動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下他的差別在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5417.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5420.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
簡單來說群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5436.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5441.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這樣可能是錯的因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5466.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5485.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會全動數在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5485.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5496.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
根據這個政策成績以後他還要每個月都...全棟署也不是工作成績全棟署它也是整合所有的...那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5514.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5517.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
當時就是希望提升他這樣的量能結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5536.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5543.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以如果是這樣我們希望軍職人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啦我跟委員報告我不認為齁因為全動數的量能擴大之後呢事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會黃內任性的一個精進或範圍的擴大部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5566.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5575.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5575.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5602.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5602.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5604.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
現在全社會防禦任性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5621.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5640.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5650.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5678.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5681.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5695.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5697.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5701.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們蟒蛇戰略大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5723.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5750.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5751.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5761.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
你日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5762.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5783.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5785.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5801.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過? |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5802.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5815.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
在程序上經過成合,那內容上面我事先沒有了解沒有了解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有所以蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5816.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5832.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSS就跟那個Bonnie Gray的葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似的可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5832.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5835.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5848.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5857.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5870.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5885.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5888.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5894.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這個部分我們在近兩年第一個台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴若曦來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我不贊同這樣的講法我認為是中國的虛信、僥信 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5915.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5938.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5942.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5952.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5960.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5978.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5978.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5995.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的和平穩定現狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6002.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6009.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質嘛就是中國極權擴張的本質你也擋不了連美國都擋不了所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不能夠採取相同意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6032.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6038.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
好好的告訴我們的年輕人說你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6061.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6066.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6088.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6093.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6112.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6115.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6140.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6161.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那如果聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想中國會不斷地找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合力艦C?怎麼樣界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊?這個是由它來定義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6162.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6169.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6190.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6210.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6211.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6224.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6226.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6229.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6242.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6250.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6271.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6274.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6293.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6321.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
先請我們國安局的副局長待會再請國防部的顧部長請副局長是我這邊這邊特別要跟國安局來為原住民這樣的一個發聲我們要請這個吳立華要向全國的人民全國的原住民來道歉原住民不是一個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6322.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6341.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們在過去不管任何執政黨都是準意原住民跟對岸單純的做文化、藝術、產業的交流不是一個共諜也不是一個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6343.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6356.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
今天武力華在這個地方執行國安局局長的時候排山倒海的所有的全國原住民一直討伐連我的電話已經打爆了 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6358.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6379.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
為什麼身為一個原住民的委員會把原住民拿到檯面上說他是一個破口所以今天我特別要講上次的一個答詢中原住民是一個破口當時局長對於相關的樣態會持續的關注請問部長 請問副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6381.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6410.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你認為原住民是中共滲透台灣的破口嗎?國安局是否有確切的個案情資顯示原住民被吸收了?是,謝委員那我想中共的一個統戰方式是蠻多元的包括文化、宗教還有相關體育等等都是包含在裡面那我們原住民的青年跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6410.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6432.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
中共的一個大陸的一個交流當然也像比方提議包括這個兩岸的少數民族的一個他的一個活動包括像這個新創或才藝等等現在我要回答我要你回答的是有沒有顯示原論被吸收 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6433.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6455.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
有沒有什麼什麼樣的一個顯示你來回答一下就好了我想原住民有沒有被吸收我國安團隊多有在瞭解在掌搜這些情報目前我們手頭上是沒有原住民的所以今天吳立法身為原住民的立委不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6457.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6475.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
把原住民污名化,分化原住民。」今天他用這個,他應該我建議吳立華委員向全國的原住民道歉以上來,那個我們請國防部部長好,請坐是,黃委員好是,部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6486.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6506.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
今天有一個非常可笑而且沒有任何的精準的換算你們自己的國防部智庫國防安全研究院的蘇紫雲所長在日前的表示如果美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6510.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6535.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
要到我們保護我們台灣台海要45分鐘就到了這樣的一個說辭對你們國防的智庫所顯現出來的這樣的一個數據有沒有精準有沒有準確你來回答您是說台灣台灣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6538.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6549.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
美國如果能夠派遣足夠武力到戰場能夠有多久要到我們台灣海峽這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6552.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6574.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
跟委員報告我想我還是從一個我們的整個戰略這個的一個目標來說明我們建軍是以拒止敵人達成任務為目標所以我們備戰方面是以平時能夠有效應處灰色地帶的清招暫時我們是以削弱的戰略拒止、遲制或擾亂敵人達成作戰目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6577.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6601.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
來迫使他要放棄奪台的行動也就是說我們逐次的去削弱他的戰力讓他的最後的奪台的這個行動不能夠成功我們沒有辦法跟他做一個說我們要殲滅這個國家或者是我們要如何但我們的戰略我們的戰略基本戰略就是讓他登島的作戰最後沒有辦法能夠成功所以你們國防部的智庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6603.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6618.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
國防安全研究院的蘇執銀所長所表達的等於廢話若中共對台封鎖美國最快可能在45分鐘內馳援台灣我今天直接解破了你們這些國防智庫的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6621.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6635.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
美國前參謀首長聯席會主席馬克‧麥利曾表示美國能在30個小時內整備60%兵力至台海地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6637.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6655.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
也是派兵到台海地區不是加入戰鬥意思就是說國軍至少要獨立支撐30個小時我們有沒有能力支撐3個小時而不是國防智庫所講的到台海要45分鐘就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6657.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6677.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
跟委員報告,如果他是一定要做這個登陸作戰的話,我們是會找到他最脆弱的點以一個不對稱作戰的一個防衛的一個概念來打擊他的最脆弱點,讓他的這個有生戰力在登島作戰的時候能夠失敗所以我想請教一下部長,你認不認同國防智庫蘇紫雲所講的這句話45分鐘,你認不認同? |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6683.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6705.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我一再的講就是說我們不會去講我們什麼幾分鐘幾分鐘幾十分鐘或者幾天這些事情我們的目標就是讓他的登島作戰會失敗這是我們的建立備戰的目標部長我現在要告訴你的身為一個國防智庫不能隨便亂講話這製造國內的緊張我像以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6712.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6720.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
針對我們今天的45分的說法來反駁第一個本席對於觀點若真的以彈劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6723.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6747.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個司令所說的這個蟒蛇戰略解放軍只要願意隨時可以封鎖台灣那就是表示解放軍可同時滿足兩個條件第一個讓台灣難以突圍第二讓外部武力難以進入干涉及區域拒止那第二個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6749.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6776.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
維台精遠一方面是台灣的施壓另一方面就是區域的拒止例如聯合力線的2024B遼寧號航空母艦編隊前往台灣東部海域就是演練區域拒止所以這個是美軍要從關島駛遠到台灣的困難度已經是大增了 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6776.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6803.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以今天我特別要提醒部長這樣的一個種種的問題怎麼會是45分鐘所以我今天就要把國防智庫蘇紫雲所講的一切都不是一個事實我們現在講的是我能不能支撐到30個小時美國聯席會主席所講的如果30個小時他可以遲遠到台灣海峽 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6804.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6807.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
不見得是要加入我們戰鬥的一個部隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6811.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6834.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
你來回答跟委員報告齁,我想還是要講一下蟒蛇戰略齁除了我剛剛講CSIS或者格蘭也有講到以外美國的邁阿密大學政治學教授也有提到就是說他發表一篇專文就是說在講的是說中國會從外交、經濟、軍事到對台灣的顛覆滲透的一系列打壓活動他把他這個比喻為這個中國的蟒蛇戰略這個是在講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6839.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6850.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
利用它這個沒有需要要用燈塔這個整個全面禁犯的這個手段來迫使以不斷的以來打壓台灣那 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6851.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6877.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
唐司令所講的應該也是引用這個來說明說中國正不斷地來進行對我們的這個法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰那真正如果說他要做到所謂的講到說所謂的封鎖我剛剛已經講過了全世界不可能坐視不管的因為他對全世界的經濟甚至包括對中國自己本身的經濟那個產生的那個重大的傷害是沒有一個國家可以承受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6877.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6896.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
台灣海峽在地緣政治上面的重要性台灣海峽在台灣在整個經濟安全上的重要性是沒有辦法被取代的所以我們不要太仰賴美國所說的能夠直言到我們這一來我們幾個小時但是我們國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6899.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6910.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
國防能不能支撐到30小時所以這個就是一個警示那另外是我想請教一下我們經濟部的能源局部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6915.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6942.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這一次聯合力艦的2024B傳出LNG的天然氣船受阻礙無法按預定的期程送出天然氣到我們的台灣雖然政府說這個是錯誤的假信息但是這個消息實際上凸顯出國人的不安請問一下我們能源司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6943.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6961.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
台灣的天然氣存量在供應給受屬的情況下能供應多久?」我們現在法規的就是在113年的時候天然氣的安全存量大概是8天左右到116年的時候可以到14天沒有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6963.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6965.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
臺灣遭共進的封鎖能維持臺灣的能源供應及發電韌性,哪一種發電方式最可靠?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6989.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7006.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們現在就是用多元的發電方式是最可靠的那多元的方式最可靠那請問一下現在多元的方式是什麼樣多元的現在就是按照經濟規劃就是20、30、50然後呢就是綠電20然後這個30然後是50天然氣發電是50天然氣發電是50所謂天然氣將來的規劃2035年的時候是這樣子所謂天然氣天然氣是50%對所謂的天然氣的種類 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7018.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7042.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
天然氣的種類就是天然氣的發電啊就是LNG的發電LNG的嘛對是就靠這個嘛對50%現在的能源規劃就是這樣所以它的供應量如果真的一旦封鎖台灣我們的天然氣的供應量不是18天也不是14天真正的數據是7天所以你們自己本身要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7043.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7067.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
天然氣是國人現在依賴的天然氣那如果一旦發生戰爭的時候我們天然氣能夠供給我們國內的天然氣有多少所以我們的儲存量有多少我剛剛跟委員報告就是在113年今年是差不多是8天左右那到116年的時候我們會把安全存量去拉到14天 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7069.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7084.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
所以我們今天我們特別要很多的地方不管台海的局勢我們天然氣是國人最關切的能源局局長你特別要注意到這一點好不好以上謝謝黃仁委員那接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7112.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7138.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
阿凡請國防部部長請顧部長是陳偉好部長好部長最近的重大的國安案件就如王定委有提到這個國防部的個資外流事件那這一次的範圍有多少人受到影響您說沒聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7140.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7167.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這次的個資外洩案件有多少人受到影響?」跟委員報告齁他這個部分是這樣子就是說他還是以內部軍網的方式以電子公文的方式發送給這個28個單位所以他還是在內部的這個各層辦單位那所揭露的是那一個他的服務單位職稱跟姓名這樣子這個資料而已沒有其他任何的資料就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7169.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7184.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
單位、職稱跟姓名,那還是在內部的各成班人員在內部的個案,但是中國時報有獨家掌握中國時報他是知道這個訊息,但是我並不確定他有沒有拿到這樣子的相關的這些文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7184.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7204.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們沒有辦法確定所以接下來要請部長那跟法務部那共同來去確定說是我們在第一時間要做好風險控管就是將那個電子公文已經全數刪除了再來就是說第一時間做這個控管大概是從反應到開始控管大概有多少的時間就隔天隔天嘛24小時之後對 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7205.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7226.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那我希望說未來這個機制就是等到24小時之後該下載的下載完該把這些手記錄的用手把它記錄下來筆記記錄的大概也都記完了所以我們是希望說這一次就把它當作是經驗反應時間必須要加快第二部分承辦人員是法務部聯政署的政風室的人員嗎那這個承辦人員的機密層級是什麼機密 絕對機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7229.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7255.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
您說這個鎮瘋市的他的解密成績他的解密成績clearance他的解密成績是什麼我想他這個因為他相關的這些資料的話他在鎮瘋市的話他有一定的一個介面那實際的一個解密的成績我想我們回去再檢討一下謝謝部長我還是希望說回去檢討一下說如果他能夠碰觸到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7256.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7271.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
據媒體報導是直接從部長參謀總長到上校階級的將官那他的揭秘層級必須要非常高但是他如果只是一個正風式的承辦那到底是由法務部來去定義他的揭秘層級還是國防部我想這個以後要有一個完整的系統來規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7273.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7298.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
他如果是一個承辦人員但是他接觸到密等是最高機密但是我們給他安排的密等因為是法務部的政風是可能過去的依照他的位階可能給他安排的密等是機密那等於是說這就不符合這樣子的機制所以這個部分我是希望能夠來去做調整這個介密層級這個部分已經講很久了從2016年到現在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7299.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7323.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個要確保一下 這個不是小的案件資安不是只有科技的技術而已 人因的因素還是很重要的這是這次的範圍 因為我想部長也不方便透露到底有多少人受到影響但是如果範圍很大 那我們很難去追蹤到他們接收到知曉之後除了媒體知道有這件事 還是知道有這些人還知道有這些人他們做什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7324.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7348.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那這個可能是接下來這一兩個月可能要聯合法務部一起來去做檢討跟委員報告第一個當然是法務部聯政署會要做一個行政調查第二個當然就是說因為相關的這個還是在內網的範圍之內那第三個當然就是說它所出去的這個部分是包括單位名稱、職稱跟姓名那有些部分並不是基民比如說像我 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7349.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7351.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
國防部、國防部長、國防部長、國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7371.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7391.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
灰色地帶的侵擾我們這次也提到封鎖跟隔離那上一次我們是針對封鎖的部分花比較多的時間這次想針對隔離的部分那部長也知道說現在隔離的處置就不是軍事上面用軍艦或者是直接用軍隊來去做這個全面性的封鎖那所以說他可能他 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7393.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7409.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
中國可以用去棄毒、去查走私、做公衛檢疫、搜尋逃犯等於是用這樣的方式還是可以達成接近封鎖的做法目前我看我們現在根據這個CSIS的資料把這個相關的中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7414.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7440.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
海警的盾位和船艦的數量來做比較的話我們台灣的海巡基本上是遠遠的不足但是另一方面我們也必須思考說他必須在守衛的是他們整個非常大的海岸線那我們台灣只要守衛台灣就好那我專為一嘛所以我們的資源可以做更有效的運用現在的這樣子的海巡的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7441.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7456.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
國防部有沒有可能提供退役的盾位的船艦以及聯繫友好的國家來去取得其他國家的相關的這種海巡的這種不是軍艦但是能夠直巡海巡的船艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7459.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7472.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我覺得海巡跟其他國家的合作並不是由我來回答而且這個部分也不是以公開來過於討論我當然是有些理解可能這個是要由海巡來回答但 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7474.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7502.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我個人會覺得可能也不是以來公開來做說明中國的海警他是基本上從他們的國防部接收大量的退役他們的軍艦來擴充他們現在新造的艦也很多對 那我的意思是說如果中國可以大量的利用他們退役的軍艦的話我們國防部有沒有可能因為我們現在必須第一時間要因應的就是灰色地帶有沒有相關可以跟海巡把這些相關退役船艦來移交給海巡的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7503.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7521.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他跟委員報告,我們自己現在都要來應付灰色地帶,我們要進行清醒循環線的造艦所以我們應屬灰色地帶,確實中國一個對我們非常大的挑戰是在對我們進行一些消耗戰,這個是無可否認的一個事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7522.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7540.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以我們要是適切的來應處那對於這種灰色地帶洗腦我們要跟海巡來共同協處那海巡當然現在有相當的一個燒素的一個新建的建造的計畫正在執行當中就會不斷的會有比較大型的軍艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7541.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7557.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
有幾位委員提到空中的能量所以我們海巡這邊沒有定義機這樣子去協助那有沒有可能考慮與民間合作用租借的方式來去暫時把這個空中的力量做彌補我想我們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7560.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7571.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
海軍會來協助海巡做這個相關的見證的這個活動那我們也會來發展這個相關的這些以無人機的方式來做這個空中的見證的這個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7573.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7589.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好 謝謝那如果在另外一部分全動數它是在11年1月它成立那11年2月開始檢討醫療的量能那在今年我們在看到5月的時候全台的輸液藥物大缺貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7590.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7604.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
不知道這個部分國防部的這個全動數有沒有整合相關的資源來了解到有這樣的狀況之前有先檢測到有可能會有這樣子的情勢發生嗎因為現在是在成平時期喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7605.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7627.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那根據這個衛福部他把最新的這個資料給我們他說9月的時候食藥署說10月底前還是沒有辦法恢復生產比如說我們全動數也好或者是說我之前也是在質詢這個退服會的時候我們都說有定期來去確保說我們的醫療量能那基本上都是足夠的可是現在在成名時期 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7628.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7654.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
都有這樣的問題是不是可以請衛福部來簡單的回應一下跟國防部之間的資訊是怎麼樣整合的好 謝謝委員先跟委員報告就是說其實跟國防部這邊我們之前有一些相關的國家必要戰備藥材還有一些必要藥材的部分事實上是有一些囤儲那也很抱歉就是說在生理食品水這個部分因為其實過去生理食品水是一個很普遍而且有非常多家廠商在生產的一個產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7655.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7675.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以這個部分過去並沒有被列在Essential Drugs在聯合國也沒有但是這次的狀況比較特別是說因為永豐它是戰事佔7成的一個廠商所以當它因為品管的部分沒有辦法通過我們後續的核定的時候那出現了7成的產品沒有辦法供應所以才會出現市面上的短缺的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7676.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7697.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個部分衛福部這邊也謝謝大家能夠同意讓我們用專案進口的方式先用國外的產品先來致應那國內我們有很多家廠商他原來佔三成那些廠商他們也幫我們加工加班那做了因應的部分那目前我們持續的輔導這家廠商那廠商這邊已經在大包裝的沖洗液都已經可以完成已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7698.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7700.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
在11月底如果能夠確認品管的話我們應該可以在12月開始這一家原來供應七成的廠商可以供應謝謝次長您這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7726.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7754.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
解釋得非常完善我簡單跟部長講一下就是說我們現在做的每件事情做國防的準備在經濟上面都是沒有效益的經濟上面沒有效益是在過去我們的這個工業社會來講我們要全力追求效益最大化但是我們現在做的事情不應該追求效益最大化因為我們要面臨的是可能會遇到的衝突可能會遇到的封鎖可能會遇到的隔離所以我們必須要事先先思考說這可能對我們的經濟效益是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7755.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7785.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
沒有幫助的因為任何的囤積本身就是經濟效益是不會滿足的所以這個是這個mindset我們要先準備好所以如果說我們要花這麼多心力要到10月、12月的時候才可以把它完成的滿足我們現在的需求的話那所以說整個整備的過程是更加困難的所以我今天講的這個全動數我不是在攻擊全動數我覺得這是要還好我們兩年前就開始在做這些準備的所以我們現在才可以站在這個質詢台來質詢說我們現在部署的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7785.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7798.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那未來的兩年、三年會隨著每一次的質詢每一次我們的精進我們才會有足夠的能量去量能去做調配嗎那接下來請那個農業部請副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7811.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7830.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
副長根據美國交通大學聖利亞格分校最新資訊糧食供需年報他說台灣的糧食自給率現在是30.3%創下18年新低我想請教因為飲食的需求是改變的所以說包括雜糧的自給率也是在降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7831.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7842.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
現在除了倒座四選三、雜糧二轉等政策農業部有沒有辦法適度把倒座面積轉為雜糧面積讓我們的自給率更加平衡就是說不是只有夠而且還要多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7843.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7862.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好那這邊回復委員那其實在農業部其實也在進行一級二轉3加3的部分其中在二轉事實上就是就我們現行雜糧比較不足的部分去做所謂的雜糧面積的一個擴展那把原本倒做的部分本來可能比較不是在這方面生產我們轉做雜糧部分來擴展這個面積 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7864.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7885.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
對那這個地方要請教因為平時黃豆、小麥、玉米的進口跟庫存是經濟部負責那米的部分是由農業部所以剛才我們詢問幾個聯絡國會的人提供給我們的資料那遇到這個緊急狀態整體的糧食物資調備是由經濟部、農業部還是權動署來去做分配工作的協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7886.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7903.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
跟委員家報告,其實我們農業部就整個我們的庫存會定體的一個盤點那整個相關的一個剛剛就我們的一個供應的部分我們來負責那至於相關的一個配售整體的部分我們當然經濟部做民生物資的一個整個調配好謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7911.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7934.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
等一下許曉欣委員諮詢完畢後休息5分鐘然後接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台諮詢謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7941.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7970.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術啦物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7971.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7991.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7994.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8010.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8011.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8024.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8026.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8045.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8046.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8066.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
國防部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8068.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8075.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法警察機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中? |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8077.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8102.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來的原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8107.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8135.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8136.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8144.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8153.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8177.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8179.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8203.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行認知作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8205.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8230.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8232.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8248.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好 部長那請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8249.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8260.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8276.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8279.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8305.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8331.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那目前全國師資一共有多少?這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員、全民國防教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8334.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8348.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有 而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8362.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8366.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8383.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8408.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8413.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8434.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8436.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8448.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8456.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8478.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8480.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8490.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8505.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8526.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自然的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道喔車子只要是聯動上網、車聯網 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8529.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8551.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8552.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8579.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬圖城的新的工具呢孫副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8583.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8605.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員好是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態要去持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也正辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有列正好 所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎我們會努力後面有點頭欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8610.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8616.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
沒有嗎?會努力還是後續會去了解?就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握好 副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現XE在這個藝男當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8631.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8656.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件它本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8659.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8681.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8687.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8711.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BP扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8718.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8720.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
一個禮拜你們可以給報告接下來請林益君委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8745.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8749.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
請衛福部 林次長請衛福部 林正次您好 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8761.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8779.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8779.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8792.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8793.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8804.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8811.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8837.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭啦事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難那複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們如果沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的這個藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8838.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8864.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8866.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8886.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是俄羅斯戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8887.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8900.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們在重要的這些醫療應該有的公共預算原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態編列這個部分可能要看上面的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8901.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8919.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
今年的5月爆發輸液大廠用風化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術、洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水、葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8919.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8947.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8949.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8965.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工、製造更多的產量 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8967.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8980.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們有詢問其他廠商願不願意增加生產線,再加開一條產線?加開產線,第一個投資要上億,第二個要超過一年以上的時間,所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做我們也積極輔導之前有不合規的廠商,目前已經可以供應大包裝的沖洗液 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8986.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9002.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
在注射液的部分因為它在相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為它終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農歷因為我們農歷年之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9003.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9029.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入Essential Drugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9030.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9034.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9035.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9061.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好 其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導 謝謝好 那次長請回謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9065.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9070.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9090.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9104.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9111.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9139.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海巡我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海巡來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9140.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9169.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9177.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9194.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像一直以來都是那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9198.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9212.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9214.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9237.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
跟委員報告除了平常我們海域執法外那目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶的襲擾所以不僅是海戰執法我們還面對中共的脅迫那另外平戰轉換之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列所以我們的海軍暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9239.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9267.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換好 那海巡艦上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嘛第一種是難停船隻的時候做一個警告的射擊另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個火力的壓制嘛但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用火力 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9268.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9280.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9290.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9318.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊 但是你剛才說沒有用過啊 對不對對啊 那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊 艦又說你剛才說沒有用過啊 這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9320.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9322.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
會不會有點太扯了呢?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9340.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9347.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
好 因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計劃3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼 要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點 因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴竹勢鈴了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9366.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9390.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
因為我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9392.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9407.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
好啦 反正我時間有限啦 那我就直接建議就是說 如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了 因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要 像剛才說的 如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9408.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9413.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9437.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9441.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9458.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9477.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9477.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9497.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報諸位的一個28個單位那也不是以任何電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9498.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9521.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區一格的處理有一些具有機敏能源身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9528.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9555.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了 可以嗎是 我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部連政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9556.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9558.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好 謝謝部長接下來請沈博洋委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9582.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9592.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9597.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9620.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好 謝謝齁 那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9621.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9646.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定它的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9648.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9674.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9675.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9700.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在這個機密會議或者說事後再來辦公室報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9704.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9723.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但另外一個就是說他裡面有提到這一個裡面印度移工的這一個案件那印度移工這個案件當然當時其實那時候我們還在民間我們就有發現其實很多都是用同樣的劇本就是說他的這個抖音的影片或TikTok的影片但即使他有共同這個協作的行為不代表他跟中國有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9724.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9734.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼?就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼?有沒有去做這件事? |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9737.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9758.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛很多訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛文秀所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9759.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9786.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序跟科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們就依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9787.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9807.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9807.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9826.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做啦是那這一個 畢竟這一個NHK的報導也才剛出來嘛所以我覺得局裡面如果有一個回應的話對於讓一般民眾了解到底什麼叫做中國操作我覺得會有幫助是 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9828.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9854.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
另外我想問 因為今天的主題是這個封鎖這次的封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息這個假消息刪除得非常的快而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9855.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9877.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色今天的主題它是有提到這幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9878.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9901.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
包含關鍵物資的自主、民生物資、還有醫療物資這是今天的主題,我們照為定的主題裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的,因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天,今天交通部有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9903.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9931.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個它算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9932.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9955.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9955.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9976.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟全動數有關就要盤點這一些事情但因為我覺得一年有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9977.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9992.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9992.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10008.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下那這樣明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即的去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10010.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10026.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10029.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10049.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好 謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10051.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10069.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶造成蠻大的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10070.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10099.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那台灣現在目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口那我們台灣自己的廠商其實它並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少所以呢那是不是可以請次長說明一下就是說關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能就是說不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10099.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10120.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10121.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10147.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10148.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10170.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為紙血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把紙血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10170.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10186.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10186.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10204.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有它需要去盤點的,還有它需要去連結的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10206.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10235.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10236.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10259.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10264.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10281.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這是日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10282.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10298.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
他們去看這些他盤點完之後呢他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術啦可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫啦人才挖角啦商業間諜啦強制計轉啦他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10299.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10322.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10323.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10340.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這一個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10344.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10360.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10361.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10382.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再責成一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來謝謝謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10391.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10395.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
接下來我們請徐曉欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席,我們先請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10417.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10428.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
徐委員好部長好先簡單請問一下就是說這個中國大陸他從這個聯合歷屆A跟B的這個演習啊就您觀察而言A跟B的主要差別您覺得是在於哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10430.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10459.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這個我想在上一個禮拜我大概有回答過了大概有一幾個特徵當然就是說他遼寧艦他在這個我們的東南面那艦載機起飛那這個部分是一個重點那另外當然就是說他這一次的海警船增加就是說大概過去在東面的A是4艘那現在擴大到整個12艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10460.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10469.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
針對現在的A、B兩次軍演封鎖目前我們自己評估台灣的突圍能力是如何的以及在跟中國大陸軍演的應對過程當中我們要如何避免軍事衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10487.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10511.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
根委員報告因為我已經一再的回答就是說他這個因為他這次宣布他這是一個drill他是一個操演的一個行為他不是真正要進入這一個是真正的封鎖的狀態那我的意思已經是說他如果真正要進入封鎖的這樣的一個狀態應該就是一個軍事行動然後是一個交戰行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10512.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10536.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
對那這個時候我們國軍整個是進入一個應急作戰的階段那對於這樣子的一個封鎖我們可以合法的行使自衛反擊那這個是國際法上所認可的一個作為那我們相關的這些所謂對於它如果啦齁如果它是單純的進行封鎖而沒有後續的武力攻擊的話那對於這個封鎖如何來應對當然我們也有相關的應對的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10538.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10554.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我另外也要再說明就是說他如果真的單純實施這樣的一個封鎖我認為全世界不可能坐視不管因為他影響全球的經濟實在太巨大了這個包括自己的中國經濟大概商人十分自己智商大概都也要六七分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10555.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10573.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
是,而且對台灣來講也是一個重擊所以我們希望就是說在於如果未來他們以封鎖之時那實際上是行這個統戰也不叫統戰,他們統戰在各個地方就是說威脅到台灣的這個安全的時候那國防部有自己我們應對的這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10576.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10598.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
現在這個階段應該只是在操演,就是在做一個心理規則對,他們現在只是在做這個演習而已啦我只是說我們要預判未來可能發生的情況做一些提醒那謝謝喔,那請那個內政部替代役中心也一起上台好嗎因為我們今天主要要問的問題是跟這個專長還有研發替代役有關的事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10601.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10621.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那剛好因為好不容易這個機會就我們國防部跟這個內政部我們研發替代役相關搭在一起所以特別想提這個問題來我們給大家看一下94年1月1號出生的役男他們兵役改成一年之後現在所有的專長替代役跟研發替代役是不是都已經取消了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10623.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10651.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
包委現在94年次以後的一年目前目前是暫時不開放受理專長資格來申請扶體代役為什麼要把研發替代役跟專長替代役都刪除呢因為94年這部分因為它一起變成改變為一年那現在還在做一個研議那至於說像研發替代役的這一個部分94年次的它預判會到118年之後才會研究所畢業所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10651.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10672.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
不是每個人都讀研究所啊,像我都還沒畢業呢這部分因為到118年才會有影響到所以目前還在研究是不是到時候會來做一個開放好,那呢,依照這個產業及專長替代役的需求總緣額數式我們可以看一下這個研發替代役的緣額資料跟專長替代役的緣額資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10675.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10683.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
其實它的需求數跟入營人數以研發替代役來說其實也都還算是有蠻大的需求量 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10684.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10713.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那今天我要特別講的一個類別就是說在這麼多的研發替代役裡面我要特別講一個類別也希望顧部長能夠了解看看就是這個電競大家都知道我們在體育上面電競啊台灣算是世界之光最近還在打那個LOL的全世界的大賽我們看到我們好多年輕人在這個LOL的這個競技大賽上面發光發熱那所以電子競技其實是一個現在很重要的體育賽事的運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10714.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10734.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那電競跟體育選手很類似他們擔任職業選手的精華年齡普遍是在18歲你說到30歲其實都是年紀偏大了大概基本上18歲到20幾歲他們在電競圈活躍的年齡甚至比體育選手還要短因為他們同時是首腦並用所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10735.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10758.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
以這個階段來說法規就是服兵役的主要年紀所以我國也面對了普遍的體育選手有不同的兵役因為延期到一年之後的處理方式那主要就是替代役、補充役或是緩針那目前的專長替代役雖然有公告有人申請就有機會但是這些電競替代役的執行相關單位都是文化部主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10759.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10776.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那現在這個政策在取消的狀態之下等於說這些電競選手的職業生涯就會碰到問題我們看一下電競專長替代役的這個數據那你看其實每年能夠申請的人數跟錄取的人數其實都是比例非常低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10776.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10801.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那我們去問過這些電競選手就是有幾個原因啦第一個是說我們怎麼去認可這些賽事第二個就是說那他申請之後他實際上面在替代役的過程當中他能夠做什麼所以呢補充役的部分依據國家體育經濟代表隊的補充服兵役辦法那電競選手是可以包含在裡面的嗎就你們所知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10802.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10824.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這個部分據我們所知因為這個運動選手這部分是體育署所主管的沒錯所以這部分原則上他目前是沒有包含在這邊對所以他呢在這個體育競技補充兵役辦法裡面有提到某一些特殊等級的這個電競選手可以獲得補充役例如說呢像現行的規定是亞運才有 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10826.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10844.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那明年國際奧運也會舉辦第一屆的這個電競奧運那當然如果電競把它納進這個相關的國家競技體育代表隊補充兵役辦法第三條第一項的運動項目也是一種解套的方式那但是我們想要問的是說啊電競選手會有符合緩針的資格嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10848.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10865.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我們看一下那個圖好不好這個第29條的附件因為徵兵第29條的副表第16類參加全國以上運動比賽也可以依據證明來緩徵到比賽結束為止但是電信選手是不是不符合這樣的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10867.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10883.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
來幫我說明一下這個是延期徵集對他是接到徵集令之後來辦延期徵集那像這個部分他是可以來申請電競選手也可以嗎這是延期徵集的對我知道我是說延期徵集的部分電競選手也可以還徵嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10885.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10912.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
以這個我是說第16條喔因為過去電競它沒有被分類在體育那是這幾年才把它分類到體育所以我想要問的是這個16項的緩針入營事故表裡面它提到了參加全國以上運動會比賽者應繳證明只要你提供相關機構證明都可以准予延期入營時間到比賽結束日子 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10912.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10938.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那這個部分電競選手也可以去做申請嗎?是,他如果為了參加比賽這個部分的話那是可以辦理延期徵集但是他的前提是要接到徵集令啦對,當然啦當然啦我的意思就是說比如說我今天18歲嘛然後我剛畢業嘛然後我現在可能就是要打一個全國性的比賽可是我在這一年當中我接到冰單了那我是不是可以拿著我現在要去參加這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10940.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10960.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
電競比賽的證明然後來向你們辦理緩爭這個部分他就是他接到徵集令之後那他有這個延期徵集的需要就可以用這個部分來適用來辦理延期徵集好那這個部分就是我再跟您確認一次因為很多的電競選手特別擔心就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10961.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10973.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
電競它屬於運動賽事體育賽事的一環所以如果說我們的電競選手在打比賽在準備比賽的過程當中接到冰單可以以這個第29條內的副表第16類的參加全國以上運動會比賽者那能夠來緩爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10980.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11007.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好那非常謝謝因為這個對於我們的電競選手來說我跟他們溝通過他們都非常的擔心一年期的兵役會去這個壓縮到他們的這個準備時間那再來那謝謝您謝謝再來我想要問這個部長這個關於國軍聘僱人員的部分就是部長您知道我們在國軍的公務人員跟聘僱人員的放假日有差別這件事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11010.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11033.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
如果是聘僱人員的話他應該是適用勞基法的相關規定吧對但是呢在九三軍人節上面竟然是兩樣情我們可以看一下這個圖片你可以看喔如果按照我們國防部的國防法規資料庫裡面國防部的公務人員出勤事項裡面呢九三軍人節沒錯的話應該是放假吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11035.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11038.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
如果你是國軍聘僱人員請假規定你只能在五一勞動節和九三軍人節之間選擇一天來放假這就是剛您講到的因為聘僱可能是適用勞基法等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11053.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11075.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
但是五一勞動節換九三軍人節實際上面勞動契約就已經把它寫死了九三軍人節卻是配合機關作息的在國軍軍內支援的這些公務人員等於說這些聘僱人員就少一天的假 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11076.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11096.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那部長我們這個五一上班的話那我們的薪資會多給嗎還是只能用換價的方式這有沒有任何雙方可以協議的方式可以來協助這些聘僱人員也能得到他們應該所屬的你剛剛說嗎勞工勞工權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11099.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11127.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
五一勞動節按照這個勞舉法的規定他屬於勞工的話應該就可以放假那現在如果按照這裡的休請假的規定當然我事先沒有看過不過如果按照這裡講他的應該是說他可以選擇跟九三軍人節則一致來放假所以按照他這個意思應該就是說他還是可以休假只是說他可以選擇在九三或者在五一的那一天來放假這樣來休假 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11128.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11153.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那因為呢你們上面寫說五一跟九三二日擇一休假就是不能寫死說兩天互換不然就會違反這個勞基法所以呢我們是訴求是說啊五一勞動節公務人員沒有休假五一勞動節公務人員沒有休假那但是聘僱人員是你可以擇一休假嘛但是呢你這個五一勞動節 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11155.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11183.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
跟九三軍人節擇一休假的部分實際執行就是在聘僱人員在五一勞動節要求要上班跟九三軍人節一起休通常我們的狀況是這樣所以我們的建議是說呢就你看你要不要直接歇死比方說你就是五一勞動節你可以休假那九三軍人節你是屬於你是屬於這個你不是屬於軍方公務人員因為你是聘僱人員所以九三軍人節你就不放假 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11183.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11190.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
就說你不要用換價的方式你直接寫清楚他們是屬於哪一種的勞僱關係我覺得這樣子在整個我們跟這個聘僱人員雙方的合約請假規定上面會比較明確不然的話呢你這樣寫說好像可以選擇但實際上很多日常時候啊他們根本沒有選擇的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11204.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11229.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
就變成是說長官要他放哪一次他就放哪一次所以我的建議是既然93軍人節是軍人在放那聘僱人員呢那他如果是屬於勞動的勞動契約的那你就是讓他放五一勞動節那93軍人節就不放假就是大家一個一個要寫清楚這是我比較具體的建議那這部分部長您再回去思考看看不急著給我做回應但是如果有新的進度的話再麻煩再跟我們說是好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11235.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11238.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
謝謝許曉欣委員部長請回現在先休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11629.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11654.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好 我們繼續開會 那我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 是不是麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11660.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11663.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11706.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11709.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11732.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11757.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中 strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11758.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11780.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11783.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11798.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都有掌握吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11800.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11814.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11817.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11831.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11832.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11855.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司這個高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事他派了三席董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11856.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11881.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
他派了三級董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11883.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11895.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長 我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有那個相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11899.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11915.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11916.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11936.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11937.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11957.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11958.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11981.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
它也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11986.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11997.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個Project 2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12010.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12027.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
對中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12034.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12056.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12057.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12081.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12082.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12086.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12094.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12114.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
還是再繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12115.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12133.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12137.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12163.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12165.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12192.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12195.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12195.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
是一級關鍵設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12200.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12227.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project 2049大家都在關心這一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12229.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12243.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12244.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12271.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12273.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12294.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12297.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12313.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這邊向委員報告我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛這個你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12324.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12345.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12347.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12374.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個 你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12376.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12395.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
招牌一樣啊 人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12397.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12418.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12422.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12432.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12451.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12453.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12455.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12482.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12483.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12498.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12512.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12532.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己無藥無菌不要只給我書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12540.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12567.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12569.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12591.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12594.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12604.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12613.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12634.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12636.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12640.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室然後部長請回那接下來我們請張祺凱委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12668.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12686.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
請國防部長今天主席安排了一個非常好、很重要的專報因為之前你特別提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12688.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12717.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
中共現在在灰色地帶的襲擾還有經濟上的恫嚇一直在加大中共演習越來越大越來越不容易去掌握所以有可能由訓轉演、由演轉戰這個可能性嘛那包括我們的海軍的司令唐華接受經濟學人這個專訪的時候一共啊中國大陸那邊現在用的是蟒蛇戰略所以他們隨時可能會封鎖台灣所以今天這個會非常非常的重要我要請問部長的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12718.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12746.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
部長有感受到兩岸的戰爭一步一步在靠近嗎?我會這樣問一個很重要除了你剛剛講的理論之外最近發生了一件事就是教育部調查的學生扶擒意願書有些家長是擔心的你有感覺到有聞到兩岸的戰爭氣氛一步一步在靠近嗎?我想跟委員報告國防部立場一向是備戰而不求戰但是我們還是要進行備戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12748.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12776.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
當然戰爭是沒有贏家的大家看一下這個畫面這是烏日戰爭基輔戰前跟日後的這個對比你看左邊那個圖左上角那個戰爭完之後變成左下角右上角那個圖戰爭之後變成下面這個烏日戰爭兩年多本來很富庶平和的烏克蘭現在死亡人數最新統治 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12778.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12800.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
8萬人,烏克蘭死亡了20萬人生靈塗炭,戰爭都沒有贏家所以我要請問部長所以我們要譴責的是侵略者嗎?侵略者,對對對所以我們要做好我們沒有要侵略對,我們做好避戰也做好備戰的準備嘛所以柏廷我問你一個問題嘛如果我們也要備戰那戰爭如果發生的時候,部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12803.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12813.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
你要怎麼樣去凝聚國人的向心力,如何去提升全民的士氣?」你怎麼回事?你當過國安會秘書長跟做保定,你對這個應該是很有研究對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12814.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12834.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我想我們就是要加強這個全民對於這個敵情日劇嚴峻的這樣子的一個情況來凝聚國人的一個團結然後來強化全社會防衛的韌性我現在看到的是40萬名利嘛然後高章生意要不要去扶請議員書嘛我給你看一個很成功的個案好不好部長看到這個應該會有些感慨喔這個照片你給阿扁那個人生嘛你也認得陳志忠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12843.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12869.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
你看到這個當初青春正盛的陳志忠公他明年要去當兵他的爸爸是陳水扁你看到這張照片你有什麼感覺你這個問題一再的跟我問然後一再的叫我而且等一下問你啊你之前有問過你陳志忠這個照片嗎你看到這張照片你有什麼感覺尤其他說這句話很重要啊他說他妹妹要去做兵啊他們爸爸是阿扁啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12871.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12890.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這個文件很重要啊 這個扭轉了2000年的總統大選喔老蔣也很感人啊 你看他左邊講的這個那個部長我念不得聽喔 他說天啊北部心啊沒有一個總統 管理自己的家庭 推向戰爭每個小孩都是父母的心頭肉啊我現在在問你的事 你看到這張照片 看到這樣的話有什麼感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12897.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12913.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我想我們要強化自我防衛能力跟決心這是我們國防部的立場就是這樣子那是不是請那個賴清德賴總統也要跟陳水扁陳總統請議一下陳總統是自己的小孩去當兵啊當初大家也鼓掌叫好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12915.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12941.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這是第一個要做的我看今天很多將官在加起來一百顆星星喔很多將官為國盡心盡力很多小孩後來也都當了兵嘛對不對要不要呼籲賴總統跟陳水扁總統學習就是比較重要的我們家台灣的高官們不是只有40萬名利的問題啊也不是只有調查高中生要不要去扶秦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12942.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12963.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
高官要做點榜樣吧,甘便在台灣如果最能夠提振士氣的能夠凝聚向心力的兩個人嘛那總統啊,這就是你啊,是你部長我想任何一個人他按照這個相關憲法跟法律的規定他應該要盡他這個相關的義務包括服兵役等等應該都會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12965.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12991.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
阿扁阿驚陳志忠這個文宣阿為什麼那麼感動人一個是他以身作者他真的去當兵當然後來他去當兵發生了一些波折可是他講到天啊白無心小孩是心頭肉沒有一個父母現在就是這段時間有一些父母開始擔心嘛第二個下面這個話還很重要阿他說孩子都要去服兵役了所以阿扁阿說他最不希望也最不願意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12992.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13018.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
就是台灣發生戰爭了我們也不願意台灣發生戰爭我們都希望維持現狀對 維持現狀 這很好 對可是萬一發生的時候要該做什麼事情來 全世界有一個非常成功的點辦大家看看 以色列以色列啊 最近發生以哈戰爭啊他們的總理本來小孩是在美國的在邁阿密 緊急就回國去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13020.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13045.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那時候以色列媒體還做了一份很重要的名單大家知道嗎?那個名單叫什麼?以色列部長及以上高官的子女參戰的名單這個是以色列媒體做的喔他們包括總理的兒子、總統的兒子、兩名無職務的部長五個孩子社會保險部的兒子、交通部的部長的長女他們是男女都接兵喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13047.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13070.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
連長女都去當兵了 移民跟整合部的部長 倒數第三行顧部長 以色列勞動部的部長有4個小孩還有他4個子女跟他的女婿全部都當兵了這個家庭至少8個人 搞不好12個人去當兵了全民皆兵啊 所以以色列才那麼強啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13071.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13100.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
部長我當然知道我們今天要追求和平要避戰對不對不希望小孩上戰場去阿那問題是現在看起來戰爭離我們越來越近然後整個氣氛又那麼不好我們是不是該做一點事情那我們看下面這一張能不能我現在問的問題是當以色列的媒體列出一個部長級以上的小孩的參戰名單台灣的呢中華民國高官子女不要說參戰名單有沒有一個備戰的名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13102.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13123.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
是不是要先問幾個事情,否定有地雷?部長級以上的小孩有當兵嗎?第二個,有準備跟以色列一樣準備要上戰線嗎?第三個,最卑微的這段時間鬧得沸沸揚揚嘛總統說要40萬有韌性強韌的這個民兵是不是小孩至少去參加40萬民兵的訓練? |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13125.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13136.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
跟委員報告一直在講民兵他們不是民兵嘛他就民力不是民兵嘛您不要這樣子一直在那部長我呼籲至少部長級以上的小孩包括你的小孩去參加民力OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13137.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13154.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我想每一個人都有他應該應盡的義務嘛那這個就是你上次也一直在問說是這樣我覺得這個問題應該就是說他任何他任何應該應盡的義務都是應該盡的嘛就是這樣子嘛好不好好那我們做個簡單的總結部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13156.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13182.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這不是在刁難你應該是你以前金管會主委你也把你任內的工作做得很好嘛國防部長也一樣啊那國防部長你現在碰到現實兩岸現在看起來是緊張的是不是所以我才問你說你怎麼樣去把士氣是提振的要凝聚的我今天從國內一個以前的案例從陳志忠跟你講到國際上以色列的請參考一下好不好當然我們做兩件事情第一個我們追求和平盡量避戰對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13183.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13185.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
王宏文委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13219.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13246.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好 謝謝主席我請顧部長還有今天我們政風室的代表好 部長好部長因為聯合利劍B剛剛舉行完畢馬上中共又在兩個地方實施實彈射擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13248.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13274.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
感覺在台海之間那個情勢有升高的情形我記得你剛剛當國防部長的時候我有問你我說邱國正部長前國防部長說他其實都睡不好覺那你說你的睡眠品質很好我想請問一下最近連續的這樣的一個情勢你的睡眠品質仍然很好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13276.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13297.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我記得我沒有說我的睡眠品質好或不好我說我的睡眠品質跟平常是一樣大概就是這樣子我想你站在這個執行台上面問我睡眠的品質這件事情我並不知道如何回答我承認我也不知道如何回答所以你沒有辦法再回答是睡眠品質一樣囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13300 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13309.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
其實非常簡單我就是想問齊秋部長要傳達的就是在這樣的局勢上尤其國防部長他不可能睡得好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13311.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13331.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
當然可能部長想要四兩撥千金如同剛才張其凱委員講的就是現在很多的情勢使得大家感覺到比較緊張那另外我想請教當然因為你是律師出身啊你很會去閃躲這樣的問題其實當時你說睡眠痞子一樣其實很多外界都會覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13332.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13341.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
你真的睡眠品質一樣嗎?你真的覺得這一切都如常嗎?」我認為敵情當然是值得我們來警惕的現在中國的軍事武力不斷的擴張不斷的在進行這些相關的操演或演習有沒有對國防部長造成壓力?我想我們對於任何一個工作都要戰戰兢兢 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13358.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13385.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
感覺你現在比你剛剛出任國防部長的時候感覺沉重很多啦那另外就是最近我們的駐美代表余大雷他接受美國媒體訪問的時候他說台灣已經準備好打仗了傳回台灣之後呢引起了軒然大波所以我想請問一下部長您同意余大雷的說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13386.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13395.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我認為余大使所說的大概應該主要是重點在強調我們台灣應該要有足夠的自我防衛的能力跟決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13396.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13417.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這一點是比較重要我認為他的講話的重點因為那天那個林佳龍部長有幫他在還原他說他是說如果遭到侵略的話台灣準備好打仗了但是無論如何作為一個駐美大使很多人講說台灣打仗的時候你駐美大使立刻飛回來跟我們一起打仗嗎所以您覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13418.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13446.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
中美大使對於在美國媒體訪問的時候直接這樣的一個談話適合嗎?對於我們的國軍弟兄因為他們才是站在第一線的啊您覺得適合嗎?我還是剛剛的回答答案就是我認為余大使的真正的用意就是說我們台灣應該要持續的加強我們自我防衛的能力跟決心他只要的目的是在說明如果余大使是用您的話術的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13448.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13462.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我覺得會比較好所以我必須講我們尤其駐美大使、駐外大使還是需要謹言慎行尤其我覺得國防部因為你現在肩負的是很多我們在第一線的我們的國軍弟兄我剛才為什麼請我們的鄭豐市今天是專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13470.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13490.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
部長請問一下這一次我們的一些情報人員的個資包含你自己在內的高階將官情報人員的個資外泄你們承認疏失請問一下有人下台嗎有人被懲處嗎我們會來檢討並且進行相關的懲處所以還沒有還沒有被懲處我們現在由法務部的聯政署來進行這個調查調查之後自然會來進行相關的所以有人會被懲處對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13500.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13520.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
就這個疏失我想應該要檢討然後來進行究責當然要因為老師說我今天看到是我們的陳寶倫專門委員來我很嚇一跳但他們說主任在交通委員會因為交通委員會有排同樣的一場是我知道但是我覺得這件事情啊姿勢體大 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13522.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13542.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
因為我覺得我們的國防部雖然承認疏失但是第一時間說我們收回了我們會強化作業程序可是問題是今天有這麼多不應該被曝露的個資然後只是因為我們的作業疏失我們就會給就是各單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13543.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13561.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
所以外界會認為說這樣還打仗嗎還有什麼任性在那邊開這麼多什麼全民防衛任性然後花這麼多錢要訓練還不知道有多少錢給綠油有我直接說然後你們搞這樣的飛機有任性可言嗎部長發生在國防部欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13566.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13590.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
當然這個還是要跟委員報告因為這個還是循內部軍網的公文系統以電子發文發送給各層辦單位各層辦單位當然就公務上面看到這個相關的附件確實我們承認說沒有將這個一些機敏的人做隔離這是一個疏失但是當然他也應該不宜將他外洩所以當然不能外洩這種問題說實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13594.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13623.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我知道大家都很辛苦但是這個問題一定要嚴懲尤其發生在國防部另外還有一些補破網的這個措施比如說因為有些情報人員是用化名對不對然後你們現在把人家的那個真實身份通通曝光因為你們尤其在軍中大概知道誰是誰所以另外一個就是單位會不會做一些輪調你們除了去檢討、去調查、去懲處之外接下來你還有什麼補破網的措施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13625.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13647.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
就我了解這些相關的這些應該要做財產申報的都是一定層級以上的人那他們都是用真實姓名來對外進行作業沒有來進行化名這樣子所以也不是第一線的工作人員所以那當然我們也要承認就是說我們有疏失那我們也做了風險的控管將這些公文進行銷毀進行這個從電腦上面全部的刪除那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13654.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13676.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
還是要檢討相關的這個疏失來進行?好,我用一點點時間這個是我們就跟數發部所了解的你可以看到這個資料這個是最近這6年相關的資安事件這裡面有政府單位疏失的太多是由我們政府單位自己把資料外洩剛剛我講就是說國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13677.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13700.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我覺得是不能夠被容許的過去包含我們自己個人的就是一般民眾的護證資料都可以外泄那當然有些是被駭客攻擊你可以看到這6年來我們大大小小從中央到地方公營事業包含我們關鍵的基礎設施我們今天不是在討論韌性嗎我們這些關鍵基礎設施要怎麼樣去更要強化韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13707.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13735.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們大大小小的這些資安事件高達5400多件高達5400多件其實這個問題是蠻嚴重的除了來自駭客的攻擊之外還有就是我們自己本身作業單位的疏失但是過去不管是很多政府單位有資料外洩老實說啦我們都沒有看到一個真正的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13737.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13761.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
所以就會一而再再而三每次發生的時候就說啊我們會立刻改進啊然後我們這些立刻收回啊什麼理由一大堆所以我覺得以這件事來講的話我覺得這次我就要看國防部要怎麼做處理剛才部長有回答說在檢討之後調查之後該懲處的就懲處好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13762.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13791.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
是 我想我們今天這個事件是人案的問題那資安的問題當然就涉及到說中國不斷對我們進行網路的害侵就這個部分我們當然要加強我們資安的防護能力對 沒有錯 我這邊講的資安當然來自於外來的攻擊還有來自於我們自己本身內部作業疏失自己就把資料給外洩出去了這一點所以很重要好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝王宏文委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13793.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13800.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
然後接下來楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在然後接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台諮詢謝謝主席我先請數位部的主秘請數位部的主秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13827.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13831.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到了20多次這也引起國際軍事專家的關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13850.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13875.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13876.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13889.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是否要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘那大概又經過半年的時間目前數位部對於台馬海南列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度? |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13893.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13908.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
跟委員回覆,也謝謝委員一直以來的關心有關台馬海欄123號設施是不是要列入關鍵基礎設施的部分我們在最近也把相關檢討報告送行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13909.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13934.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
行政院也在9月23日已經合併台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的合併去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘 當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定尤其是試射國家安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13935.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13961.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13971.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13976.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13978.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14004.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14005.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14029.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14030.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14058.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14060.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14085.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航商旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14086.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14109.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料港港局有來嗎有我就是港港局對那為什麼港港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14115.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14133.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14135.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14161.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
中油台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14165.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14166.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
臺灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14181.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14211.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14212.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14214.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14215.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14243.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例有增加所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14244.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14269.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
應該算公允吧?應該不能這樣講因為我督導是船舶這一塊那船員是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說航空局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14275.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14298.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個複補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14300.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14330.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
是 我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長 你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14332.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14356.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
當然會聽老公的那個專部你覺得會聽誰的傳播的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有有所擔心的這個專部我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14358.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14381.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以,讓我問,想跟你請教你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?抱歉,我剛有跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心的這個國安的風險但你們打算怎麼做?但你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14384.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14401.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14402.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14421.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
然後呢?不,船舶注射在台灣,那船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制常榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14422.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14450.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到港港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14452.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14476.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14479.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14507.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14509.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14522.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14525.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14539.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嘛我們要具體的對策嘛不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嘛包括經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14540.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14556.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14558.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14583.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得如果在不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14587.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14600.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14601.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14626.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14628.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14645.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我沒有看到明確的行動我先可以再補充一下剛剛講到LNG國貨國運這個部分其實也是我們正在跟經濟部合作的一個專案主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14647.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14671.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中副長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完啦但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14672.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14683.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面,我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14684.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14703.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝謝謝洪森翰委員那也請航港局一週內把資料整理好給洪森翰委員的辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14718.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14723.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
鄭正前委員不在接下來我們請羅志強委員上台諮詢主席有請部長請顧部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14744.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14766.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
日前我跟一位民進黨的名代電視上同台他告訴我、告訴大家說台灣海峽也就100多公里中共有沒有穿越海峽中線其實軍事戰術上的意義並不大有沒有海峽中線也不會對國安造成什麼衝擊我想請教部長你認同這段話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14769.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14792.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我想我們有相關的應變區的一個規劃任何侵入海峽中線那麼試圖來進入我們的侵犯如果我們的臨界區或者領空、領海等等的我們都要利用我們的聯合情節所在加以綿密的掌控並且因應那你覺得海峽中線重不重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14793.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14807.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
我想他不斷的這個越過海峽中線就是破壞這個和平穩定的現狀對啊,那就重要啊,不是嗎?否則你幹嘛要很多的反制措施,要去監控措施呢?那他也講,國內媒體報導聯合力艦環台演習太過誇大 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14812.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14831.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
那過去中共多次對台演習軍艦圍台的情況更多這次派出海警船情況反而降低不是升高你覺得我們這次的聯合力艦B號中共這樣子來去圍台軍演你覺得對台灣來講是情況降低還是升高呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14832.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14856.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
他這個12艘的這個海警船我想他的目的就是在試圖將這個台海內水化那台灣問題內政化是進行一個法律戰對不只是法律戰啦當然也有認知戰、心理戰的作用包括軍事也是有他的軍事戰上的意義啦因為將來所謂的軍警聯合的情況就在做沙盤的富士推演嘛對我們來說就是一個安全的威脅沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14858.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14876.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
當然我剛剛講的就是操演跟實際要進行封鎖這個當然是有差異不過對這樣的操演我們要隨時要警惕沒錯就是要警惕所以去判斷他到底身高還是降低實質上當然部長你也還沒回答我的問題你認為是身高還是降低聯合力艦B |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14877.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14896.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我認為中國日益這樣子的一些軍演來講是讓我們的敵情我之前也講過由訓轉戰這種可能性讓我們應處的時間縮短這件事情是值得我們警惕的所以其實從你的話語當中其實你也憂心嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14899.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14917.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那就是一個往上加深這個郵遲網章的方向是你敢講郵訊網站的方向所以我覺得這兩件事情為什麼要特別提出來因為民進黨朋友這個概念我覺得部長可能要好好的再宣導一下如果連執政黨的朋友都有這樣一個錯誤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14919.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14945.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
認知的話那我想其實對我們的國家安全防衛其實是非常不利的事情那我想請教其實這是為什麼跟大家講我聽了我是非常訝異因為為什麼如果海峽中線有這位民進黨的朋友講這麼不重要的話我不知道部長知不知道2015年大陸民航局規劃要設所謂貼近海峽中線的M503航線它有向西偏置的這個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14946.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14974.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
你知道當時的在野黨的反應是什麼嗎我只知道我們國防部每天都在監控這M503的航線我是講2015年啦那時候你還沒上任我還沒上任我並不清楚但是我們每天都在監控非常好我告訴你當時這個民航機它有規劃的向西偏置的規劃也還沒越過海峽中線當時的民進黨就說這是無能跟賣台 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14975.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15001.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
但後來政府有去協調讓他們擱置這項做法但等到民進黨上台又恢復所以因此我要特別講說這個事情其實沒有大家想像的這麼所謂的不重要那當然今天主題是如何因應解放軍透過灰色地帶戰術跟蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的一個國安危機那我再想請教一下華府的智庫戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15003.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15028.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
與國際研究中心他近日報告指出中共可以利用海警船對台灣發動全面或局部隔離造成台灣港口無法進出能源等關鍵補給物資供應中斷這是介於戰爭與非戰爭之間的灰色地帶戰術會讓美國跟其他民主國家反制難度增加很多我想請教像這種蟒蛇戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15030.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15040.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
緩慢跟穩定地在台海周邊來增兵介於戰爭跟非戰爭之間的灰色地帶戰術。」我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15041.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15062.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
前面我們的民進黨的朋友他還把這些做法說成是好像不重要那不是變成另外一種麻痹民心嗎?我們應該對這個很警惕吧?對不對?是,我剛剛跟前面其他委員報告就是說因為其他委員有提到封鎖的定義還有您剛剛提到這個是所謂的quarantine就是隔離的這種定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15064.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15088.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這一個他們的海警船來試圖來進行對我們的船舶進行燈檢這些等等的行為來試圖在讓我們的就是說讓我們要主張的這個台灣主權的這個意涵被模糊然後他試圖用法律戰略方式來將台海的內水化的這種概念讓我們當然要警惕其實我覺得你剛剛強調認知的那個層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15092.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15119.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
好 那倒是一個面向可是我也看到五月底的時候聯合立見A的時候民進黨立委林黛華就說高雄永安液化天然氣接收站有三天沒進料顯量斷氣危機是因為外籍船長拒絕穿越軍演範圍進港卸貨這個情況到底現在是我想請教一下對我們的國防的狀況的威脅是什麼這個部分是不是請那個OK |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15123.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15140.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
跟委員報告這是剛委員講的那個事情大概我沒有經過查證啦事實上是沒有這個事情所以我們的立委的爆料是不確實當天還有一個有一艘LG船是順利的離港好沒關係我這樣講不管這個訊息如何那當然去跟委員辦公室說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15141.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15157.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
但是呢這種情況如果發生他在長期做所謂的軍演的時候會不會造成說今天外國的船舶確實會產生所謂的疑慮他不願意穿越軍演區而造成我們今天關於能源供應的一個威脅有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15158.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15188.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
跟委員報告,如果它真的畫設這樣子類似禁航區的這種概念而影響所有國際的船舶或者是飛機所以不管是空中海面我想沒有這個所有的國家不管是印太地區或全球其他的國家都會受到影響我也不認為他們會坐視不管這樣的一個事非常好,你是認為說其他國家不會坐視不管不是認為說今天中共不會採取這樣的行為嘛,對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15189.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15212.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
我想中國採取這樣的行動的當下當然理性上來講他要判斷對他自己本身的傷害最後因為時間到我只是提醒一下整個沙盤推演的過程當中怎麼去來去準備今天這個灰色地帶跟所謂的蟒蛇戰略我們能源安全其實一直是台灣的命脈那這點希望國防部能夠特別的重視這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15213.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15232.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
是,我們權動署在作為一個MIS單位然後國安會作為一個決策跟行政院作為一個決策單位對這個部分的一個重視的程度就是我們在全民防衛任性裡面的一重要非常重要的一環所以這個也要請委員多多支持好,謝謝部長謝謝羅志強委員部長請回接下來我們請邱志偉委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15250.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15278.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
謝謝主席 有請顧部長不管是灰色地帶戰術或者是蟒蛇戰略基本上它是在執行一個戰略清晰中的戰術模糊蟒蛇什麼時候動 不知道還有怎麼動 不知道那灰色當然就是一個模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15279.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15306.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以我是覺得這個不管是蟒蛇戰略或者是灰色地帶戰術它執行都是一個長期的過程長期每天都會然後逐步升高壓力然後用多種不同的這個戰術去執行那我要先請教這是一個長期的心理戰也是一個長期的戰備這個準備的一個過程變成一個常態化 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15311.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15323.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
蟒蛇最怕什麼部長蟒蛇最怕最怕什麼蟒蛇最怕什麼你要思考他出了一個蟒蛇戰略你要知道蟒蛇不怕什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15329.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15340.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
你這個時候必須要讓我思考一下蟒蛇最怕什麼因為我對可能對國防的議題可以回答那你突然問我蟒蛇對於蟒蛇的這個戰略我們的應處當然就是說因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15347.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15373.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我認為不管國外或唐士林所發表的蟒蛇戰略就是說它藉由各種複合式的手段不斷地來進行這種軍事的動作或灰色地帶的洗腦然後呢這個針對性的這些軍演也好或者是這種常態性的戰備警訓或聯合戰備警訓也好規模也越來越大然後呢 頻率越來越高這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15375.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15402.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
所以對我們日常的戰備這個部分高強度而且是長期性的對於前線或者是每天都要這個幾乎都要備戰的狀況之下我們的這些海空兵力的這個相關的這些狀況要能夠掌握這是一個高強度而且是長期性的一個戰略對我們前線的海空軍是一個非常大的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15403.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15416.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這個部分它最主要達到的目的就是讓我軍讓國軍打到一個筋疲力竭消耗你的日常準備戰力這個我們有沒有相關的因應的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15418.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15446.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我之前好像應該也回答過了就是說我們對於這種消耗戰當然是一個他很明顯是他的策略之一那我們針對這種消耗戰的這個作為當然還是非常具有挑戰性的但我們會多利用這個在空我們本來就每天都有在空機的訓練然後也有立定的這些戰鬥這個空中的巡邏然後任務艦也會出動所以我們那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15447.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15470.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
是威脅的狀況的話我們利用地面的這些防空的系統來進行追瞄這樣子盡量的來不要過度的消耗我們的這些作戰部隊的高強度壓力之下也要培養全民國防的戰鬥力讓全民防衛能夠深入每一個國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15471.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15496.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
了解說我們面臨到中國武力的所謂蟒蛇策略影響到我們國家安全那我們必須要團結所以全面防衛這部分也要多一點相關的作為另外就是說講到我選區的部分這個空軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15498.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15515.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這個空氣管轄、鋼杉機場這個高頻率的所謂演練當然會對周遭的市民朋友、鄰近區域會造成噪音的這些影響對生活造成影響所以我也曾經 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15518.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15538.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我已經去思考是怎麼樣去把這些對這些機場周遭的這些這個回饋金或者補償金能夠把這餅做大全國有那麼多機場那麼多的這個里每天的生活都受到這個飛機訓練起降的影響這部分是國防部哪一個單位來處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15541.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15554.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我們對於這個部分當然都有一些木鱗的一些經費對阿,我是說餅要做大然後這個機制能夠更公平有一些禮阿,它要等20年才輪一次阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15556.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15582.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
所以我想部長你要去了解一下這個整個對空軍機長周遭的木鱗的這些我覺得好像沒記錯一年編六億這部分不夠啦我希望能夠對這些生活受到空軍訓練的這些市民朋友能夠有更多的木鱗經費的補助鄭部長你去了解一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15584.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15595.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
吳牧林的軍配,呃,詳細的數字我不清楚沒有這樣我知道六億多啦齁,但是我覺得這換寡也換不均啦,齁這部分我是提出這個議題,讓這個部長去了解一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15599.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15627.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
是,我們對於這些相關的應該要來跟地方政府來做跟地方政府無關啦,這個全部都是國防部編列預算對,預算是我們編列,但是要做怎麼樣的一個機制也是你們設定的,相關的牧林經費的發放也是你們制定我覺得這個換寡也換不均,這個請部長再去了解他有一些防治區的劃定,可能還是要協調一下這個制度還是出現問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15628.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15637.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那會後是不是再跟委員我請夜館的單位來跟委員多多請教好謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員部長請回接下來我們請洪孟凱委員上台質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15667.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15685.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
本席有先看到有個媒體的新聞他是獨家他有講到是說我們現在外島的戰備純糧要從原本的這個乾糧的一個部分變成改用這個加熱餐盒是不是有這樣規劃有是有這樣的規劃我們是不是請後製室做一個來 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15687.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15706.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
各位委員報告一下我們在強化這整個韌性上面後勤韌性的確準備了除了乾糧之外的一些便利包或者是即食品可以方便這個官兵隨時可以使用其實現在官兵也有所謂的這個加熱式餐盒對只是現在列為的是救災物資而不是戰備物資 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15708.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15730.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我們已經改列為戰備物資然後在下個年度會開始試行全面來做的話是在115年115年等於一年多後對這應該有預算的關係是我也很清楚這沒問題我想給官兵弟兄吃的比較好或者說比較及時加熱熱騰騰的食物嘛總不是說這個冷冰冰的乾涼口涼 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15731.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15753.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
但是有外界講是說他一個餐盒要240塊如果說我們比較大量的話是不是能夠壓低這個成本或甚至說我們是不是能夠有跟國內的廠商來去做研發合作還是怎麼樣是 其實我們這個加勒斯的餐盒跟美軍他的加勒斯餐盒幾乎是一樣我們要考慮到官兵在戰場上面他需要的熱量 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15754.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15780.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
保存、攜帶性、方便性還有一些特殊的狀況需要使用的話它的加熱速度要很快所以基本上它的價格應該是不會太低這是成本價好 了解沒問題 這給官編弟兄比較好的待遇我想這個是我們共同努力的目標來 再來部長 我想請教您今天上午也有證實是說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15781.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15789.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
中共他們上個禮拜的一個軍演的時候當天是有調動相關部隊的其中包括說關職部是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15791.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15814.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我想這個關子部的部因為我們沒有提升戰備成績那關子部的部份的話應該是由關子部的指揮官他基於這個淡水河防的一個介護的一個任務他認為有這樣的一個戰備需求所以他召回小部份的應該是只有25名的這個眷居地在附近的然後回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15815.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15838.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
然後做一個他認為一個加強戒備這個是他應該說指揮官比較積極認識的部分積極認識了那但是就整個國防部來講並沒有提高這個戰備等級因為當天國防部的記者會有媒體也詢問那當天的記者會是講是說並未下達任何的動員 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15840.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15862.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
但昨天有看到是說關子部因為本期選區就在淡水其實我們淡水的鄉親真的很配合我們國軍就是說要演習要有任何的動作的時候其實都是在淡水地區但是我們淡水地區的鄉親也認為是說我們軍民也一家可是如果說有什麼樣的一個動作什麼樣的情況下的話總是我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15862.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15888.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
是國防部能夠告訴我們國人而不是說記者會講沒有那後來你才講是說有戰備需求因為今天早上的媒體的下標是顧立雄認了有戰備需求所以關子部10點召回官兵我是說是由關子部他自己做決定就這個部分的話我是事後去了解是由關子部的那關子部 抱歉喔 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15889.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15895.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
觀止部做相關的一個動作沒有再往上呈報嗎?還是觀止部就可以來做決定了? |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15896.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15923.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
報告委員我是林三次長因為上個禮拜的這個中共的聯合力軍2024B他的一個威脅的態樣我們北中南東不見得是一致的那關子部他所負責的是包含的淡水河口甚至於他這個藉由河口他可以很快的突入到我們的中蘇地區所以關子部的指揮官他這個考量了敵情未來的發展他才會有這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15924.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15944.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
官職或指揮官考量的敵情他的敵情是他有看到什麼還是他有掌握到什麼而做一下動作他的情報是從哪邊來當然第一個部分是從中共他所發布軍演的課程第二個是我們相關的一些情監偵的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15944.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15970.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
相關單位嘛 是 是不是所以是相關單位告訴官職部官職部來做相關的命令但做相關的命令來做相關動作的時候他沒有往國防部回報嗎這個部分基本上我們沒有去要求他必須要向我們回報但是官職部的指揮官他也是他並不是把所有官職部的人全部召回他也只是做一些預應的措施只召了25位好 來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15974.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15998.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
部長本席再請教現在有媒體也有一些民調機構都有講到是說對於中共近期武力犯台國軍防衛台灣的能力有沒有信心這個是基金會做說45%的民眾對於國軍防衛台灣能力有信心但是50.3%是沒有信心部長你有看到這一個相關民調嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16000.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16021.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我有大略看一下這個相關的不過我想國軍的重要的一個戰略的目標是在拒止這個敵人達成任務也就是說我之前已經有講過了我們如果這個戰死的話我們就是主要的目的就是在讓中共能夠放棄奪台這個行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16023.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16046.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
我們會利用這個不對稱作戰的一個概念在它最脆弱的時候去讓拒止、遲滯或擾亂敵人達成這樣子登台的作戰目標這個是我們認為現在是我們的基本的一個戰略我們認為我們有信心應該可以來不斷地來削弱在它最脆弱的那一個時段不斷地削弱它的一個戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16046.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16071.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
部長你認為我們現在有信心本席也希望對我們中華民國國軍都很有信心那但是另外一個部分那我們準備好打仗了嗎因為我們看到駐美代表他直接在接受媒體訪問的時候就講說台灣準備好打仗了我想請教一下外交系統跟國防系統他講這樣的話發言的時候有參考或是詢問國防系統的一個意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16071.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16085.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我想余大使主要的重點應該是要強化自我防衛的能力跟決心這樣子的一個意思那我們還是以這個為止兩岸的和平穩定的現狀我們沒有要求我們沒有要求戰如果說你強化自我防衛的意識跟決心我們百分之百贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16096.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16120.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
但是為什麼會有一個駐美代表尤其是相關外交人員他尤其又是在美國對國際的媒體他反而會講出說台灣準備好作戰我還是認為部長怎麼現在感覺好像部長像外交官外交官像國防部長這以前我們有個戰狼外交部長現在我們有戰狼駐美代表這很奇怪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16121.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16142.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
如果說真的有發生任何戰事全部都是我們的官兵弟兄要在第一線面臨戰事這都是我們的子弟那對於國防部長來講當然你有你的戰略考量但是對於國人來說我們希望的是安全我們也支持國軍捍衛中華民國捍衛2350萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16146.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16160.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
可是我們有需要這樣子像駐美代表一樣然後講說準備好打仗嗎這樣的話是不是之前講出來沒有跟國防部討論過你是不是也不清楚他有接受這個專訪在他專訪之前我們備戰並不求戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16164.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16192.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我們也不拒戰、不畏戰,但我們不求戰我們也希望能夠和平穩定發展,不是嗎?是,我們維持希望兩岸維持現狀這個是我們的目標謝謝部長,我想在外交國防委員會既然是外交國防委員會,一半是外交一半是國防我們台灣的處境不容易,我也理解但是捍衛中華民國的主權,我們都是共同一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16193.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16196.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
陳婷妃、陳婷妃、陳婷妃委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在李坤喆、李坤喆、李坤喆委員不在蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們請賴世保委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16224.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16229.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長是 賴委員部長辛苦了齁前面委員問到我想我再要確定一下就是我們現在國軍用的戰備的參核這是不是確定了這個加熱的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16253.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16280.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
是怎麼樣?最後確定是用什麼樣的版本?是40塊到50塊的簡易還是用240塊的六分兩數的?報告 簡單跟您報告一下三樣東西都有被變第一個是加熱式餐盒第二個是口糧第三個是我們的所謂的即食包也就是在一般便利商店我們可以看到的一個就是直接拆開的即食包請問你這個準備多少?這三樣各準備多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16281.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16296.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我可以私下跟委員報告因為這個準備的天數它是屬於比較機密的機密嗎是確定是機密不同不同這個我們農業部都講了我們的戰備儲糧準備6個月7個月什麼6個月委員分成兩部分農業部都講了你有什麼機密可以講我是覺得奇怪的這個農業部的準備有了經濟部會講了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16307.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16324.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
委員我所謂的經濟的部分是指的是說它的個別的天數我可以跟委員報告全部來全部來維持30日以上冷凍食品都是在7日以上的冷凍食品7日然後30日那價格怎麼樣價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16326.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16340.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
價格的話就是加熱式的比較貴一點它就在240塊左右然後口糧的部分比較便宜口糧部分大概在90塊左右那剩下來的調理包的部分就跟一般市售的一樣大概在40、50塊左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16342.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16359.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
所以大家可以大概分得清楚了冷凍的7天其他的30天以上以上到哪裡不知道就這個意思對 詳細的因為牽扯到人數的問題所以跟委員私下再說明私下跟我說明來 部長我想請問你你今天對外講了說中國大陸中共如果封鎖台灣國際不會做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16371.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16392.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
請問它現在封鎖沒有?契金嗎?對,到現在為止如果按照國際法上的定義的話,它目前並沒有,因為封鎖是一個交戰的行動請問你那聯合力艦2020B算不算封鎖?算是一種操演,但沒有真的封鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16392.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16416.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
超遠封鎖,但是接近封鎖,不等於封鎖,是不是?」是這樣的意思?他自己發布的就是一個JR嘛,他自己在超遠那他並沒有化射線和進航區,也沒有讓任何的載空機或者是載船來自由的進出我們的港口這兩天在平潭打飛彈是不是因應美加的軍艦經過我們這邊? |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16418.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16445.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
你說他在平坦啊對平坦前幾天我們的瞭解就是一個例行性的演練那但是他不像這個例行性的演練把他故意宣傳然後作為一個心理威懾的一部分這樣子算不算因應我剛說過了因為美加不是軍艦經過我們這裡嗎我們的理解是這個是一個他例行性訓練的項目之一但是他把他就是有點要擴大作為一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16447.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16470.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
製造對我們的一個心理威懾,算是在歷史以外從事一個認知戰嗎?應該是這樣子部長,你今天講的話,這裡面有很多的忌妒說如果封鎖台灣國際不會做事,你的言下之意是一封鎖我們一定要靠人家救,自己沒辦法自救,是這個意思嗎?不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16472.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16500.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
我們封鎖我剛剛已經講了如果是屬於國際法上的封鎖的話它是阻止所有國家基建進出我們管轄的港口、機場跟海岸線那這樣子的一個封鎖行為會被視為戰爭行為我們就會進入應急作戰階段我們所有的部隊我們的所有的武器裝備都會進入應急作戰階段應該有的部署位置我先問你一個很粗淺的一般老百姓很想知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16501.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16510.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
現在大陸的步步進逼2024A再過來B慢慢一直把台灣越拉越緊的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16511.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16519.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
我們看到我們的因應除了你們在這裡講說都免驚啦都免驚啦講得好像感覺相關的單位我們的國軍只剩下打嘴砲而已啦或者是我們沒有說我們不用那個我一再的講我們要警惕這樣子的一個不是不是好好好我要強調是說怎麼會說他一直進逼然後我們嘴巴講而已沒辦法讓他不要進逼或者把他讓他退回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16542.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16545.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
就是說A到B又往台灣進了我想辦法讓他退到A甚至於退得更前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16549.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16572.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
這是中國的一種威權擴張中國在挑釁啊你還想辦法啊 你要讓人家知道我們國防預算一直增加我們不升高衝突 我們在克制我們只是向氣球維持現狀那中國不認為維持現狀是他可以接受的啊那這個問題是出在於中國不接受現狀的維持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16574.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16589.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我們不應該接受他一直往我們這裡面圍難道國防部不是這樣子嗎?不是這種態度嗎?所以我們就要用聯合情形戰爭的手段來綿密的監控他相關的所有的作為我們要掌控他的所有的一舉一動不管是航空的監控不夠啦你要想辦法讓他不進來嘛那我們有應處啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16592.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16616.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
只是說我沒有看到應處,什麼應處呢?至少想辦法不要讓他看我們要捍衛我們的領海、領空、領土這個部分就是我們的現在應處這個灰色地帶洗腦我們最必要的一個部分那我們就是要應對應對這樣子的請問你比有沒有比A更靠近台灣?有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16617.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16642.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
他都沒有進入二次海裡對但是有靠近一點啊那不是沒有沒有進入二次海裡我們看圖都有那圖這樣畫問題是他沒有這樣的作為啊那他圖也沒有精緯度他自己就畫了圖然後看起來跨過二次海裡可是問題是他的操演一天結束在這一天當中他就沒有進入到我們的二次海裡不管是這個在空中的或是海面的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16642.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16666.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
所以你的意思是以後不管中國大陸中共他怎麼樣的演習我們都不要理他大家都不用怕是不是這個意思不是我從來沒有講過不是你從來沒有講過我們是這樣所以不用理他怎麼可以不用理他呢我們要戒慎恐懼面對這樣子的一個敵情的日趨嚴峻威脅的一個狀況請問老百姓要做什麼心理解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16669.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16690.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我覺得老百姓當然我們在推動全民防衛任性的目的就是在讓這個全民應該要有一個在團結之下要建立這樣的一個心防居然能夠思維你上次講了說40萬的民力不等於民兵可是你那個叫戰手冊裡面TEC、TCC |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16693.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16710.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
就講到說最好的防禦就是把對方殺死那這個很好啊那這個不就是全民皆兵了嗎我想這個提起應該是消防署是吧是哪一個消防署吧那這個應該是不是由消防署來來回答這個提起 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16718.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16743.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那個戰術手冊是我們因應不同的時間不同地點採取的不同救護方式你上面寫的說最好的防禦方式就是把對方殺死那不就全民皆兵了那個是在測驗的一個翻譯的那個題目就是那個訓練後的測驗的翻譯的題目翻譯喔對所以就講白了嘛就通通是美國叫我們做的嘛是不是就這個意思啦是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16747.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16762.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
沒有這是給舊戶同仁另外一個思考就是在不同的時間採取不同的因應作為好啦最後一個我時間到了不想拖太久了部長我請問你現在有沒有比520更緊張了台海的局勢有沒有我認為中國一直是採取這樣子的一種對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16772.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16799.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
在周遭進行這樣子一個演訓的相關的作為那這些相關的作為他不會因為任何在任何的情況之下他會找任何的理由或任何的藉口然後來持續的來進行這樣的一個挑釁的作為那我們國人當然都要團結那國軍得要借勝一對川普這個最近的民調不錯看起來有機會說不定選贏了說不定的不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16801.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16805.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
但是他5月份的時候講了一句話說中共如果入侵台灣要轟炸北京結果現在救了他現在說要制裁他要關稅扣150%到200%到底的做法就是跟對烏克蘭一樣啊制裁這個俄羅斯然後也不幫俄國人打仗要給武器對台灣是幾乎完全一樣啊你怎麼看川普這樣講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16831.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16855.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
我想美國迄今為止我只能夠說美國迄今為止仍然維持一個戰略模糊的政策這個戰略模糊的一個政策意思就是說你不能夠排除他可能出兵你也不可能排除他不出兵也就是他維持一個戰略模糊的一個然後藉此來進行一個嚇阻那我想這是迄今為止美國政府的一個態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16855.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16859.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
他的美國都戰略模糊了我們的外交官還戰略這麼清楚那請問我們要不要戰略模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16863.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16886.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我們是守勢的一方,我們要的就是說如何拒止這個中國可能的一個全面侵犯然後讓一旦發生這個全面侵犯,我們讓它全面侵犯能夠失敗我們要很具體吧,我們戰略不能模糊,我們要戰略清楚你懂不懂我講的,不能讓它愈來愈雷齒,一步就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16887.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16902.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
我們的戰術戰略要很清楚啊對在平時我們應付灰色地帶的洗澡就是要捍衛我們的領土領空領海那如果說有那在暫時的話就是讓他的這個清台的行動失敗這是我們非常清楚的一個戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16904.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16924.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
所以我們是戰略清楚美國是戰略模糊是這個樣子嗎我該不該這樣講因為我們沒有要採取這個之前已經講我們沒有要反攻大陸我們就是守勢作戰的一方只有他我們要隨時戒備他任何可能對我們的作為我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16927.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16933.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
很清楚的就是我們希望能夠維持現狀時間到了我最後一句話你今天各大媒體講的那一句話其實外界的解讀是國防部長顧立雄說如果被封鎖國際不會做事言下之意就是我們沒有人力突破他的封鎖就這個意思我不是這個意思不是喔就這樣就不用國際的我們自己都可以突破還要國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16957.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16957.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16965.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16989.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
他封鎖請問你他封鎖我們有沒有能力突破封鎖我們有沒有能力我們要我們要應用我們所有的這個防衛的力量來確保我們這個國土的安全你現在連講你真沒信心你應該很大聲的講我們絕對有人力突破封鎖再等到外面的來更好這樣是不是這種答案不是更漂亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16992.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17009.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
我已經講過了沒有講我沒有聽清楚封鎖這個階段就已經進入了我們應急作戰的階段我們就要準備好應對這樣子的一個交戰的作法沒有回答問題憑著中華民國的國軍能不能突破封鎖問你這句話啦可不可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17010.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17027.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我們能夠做這個相關的因應的一個作為然後讓他的這個封鎖的這個行動會不成功那我們這就是我們應該要做的事情那就是解讀說可以突破封鎖那你快點啊 簡單人家拿得比較好你說你對人家痛苦可以突破封鎖那你拿得比較好 可以嗎我們會來救他的這個不敢說 那奇怪的 你這麼沒信心我已經在做事給你了 不敢接 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17041.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17044.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我個人認為要封鎖沒有那麼簡單我沒有能力來保衛我們的國土然後來進行這個反封鎖相關的作為這不等於突破封鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17060.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17068.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
這等於突破封鎖啦對不起我能不能請教一下委員認為什麼叫做突破封鎖他把你封鎖就把你封起來突破就是要出去啊這治理行業就這麼簡單的事情這個沒什麼大的學問啊這需要什麼學問那我們有相關的反封鎖的這個規劃跟作為剛剛這裡也沒有辦法沒有規劃啦 有人力就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17083.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17086.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
我想我們也應該要有具備這樣的一個反封鎖的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17102.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17122.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅委員不在張家俊 張家俊 張家俊委員不在已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有張家俊委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩宗內答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17129.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17144.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
委員口頭質詢為其答覆的部分還有要求補充資料者亦請相關單位與書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 散會 |
| IVOD_ID |
16198 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16198 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-7 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-23T08:31:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-23T13:17:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |