| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fccdd974dd956c7ad60f9a65472a0a5ac36059d4d42a7fce21e375caeaf2992ab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查
（一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
28334 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:46 - 16:23:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員10人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會 |
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1996.055 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年10月17日星期四上午9時至11時25分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃委員郭昌等13人列席委員賴委員世保等8人列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項依宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定 |
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2039.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
而邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計劃並備質詢本次會議委員黃國昌等10人提出質詢委員謝龍介等3人提出書面質詢決定一報告集群答案B2委員質詢是要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請訴訟交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2050.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2078.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請問上次的會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話意思錄確定接著我們介紹在場的委員吳思耀委員鍾嘉斌委員沈發慧委員沈柏洋委員莊瑞雄委員羅志強委員翁曉玲委員謝榮介委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2081.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2089.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們現在介紹列席政府官員名單司法院副秘書長黃玲倫、憲法法庭書記廳廳長楊浩青本次議程討論上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2110.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2110.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
提案說明及報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2141.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2165.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
現在有委員提出程序發言我們就依據立法院議事規則在委員發言前我們先宣告發言的時間每位委員發言時間是3分鐘需要發言的委員麻煩到主席台這邊來登記無效委員就麻煩無效委員登記一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2170.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2171.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
立法院第11屆第12會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2236.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2243.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席各位同仁今天在立法院是重中之重今天是不是會有濱林癱瘓憲法法庭對台灣憲政法治案下發動件形成一場核爆 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2266.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2292.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這麼重要這麼關切國家憲政運作的憲法訴訟法快速的在上週五院會復議的表決國民黨在野黨成功之後快速的排案那在週五快速排案列入今天議程之後我們看到這個週末台灣的法律專業界快速的動起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2294.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2317.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有律師發動了聯署聲明反對司法院長懸缺拒絕憲法法庭停擺這群律師的訴求有兩個第一個憲政機關應該共同守護司法繼續向前立法院應立即來排審大法官的人事同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2318.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2321.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
立法院是憲政機關我們要善盡憲政的忠誠義務大法官人事同意權要進入審查即刻排審這是訴求一訴求二維護憲法法庭的正常運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2334.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2360.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
當拒絕通過憲法訴訟法的修正草案這群律師甚至也要求在野委員撤回這樣一個毀憲亂政的修法所以已經有法界的律師開始串聯這是週五快速的行動這是週末週五呢我們看到有多少個臺灣民間的司法單位包括民間司改 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2361.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2365.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
民間司改會、人權公約施行監督聯盟、臺灣勞工陣線、公民監督國會聯盟、臺灣刑事辯護律師協會、臺灣環境環保保障基金會、臺灣人權促進會、國際特赦組織臺灣分會、還有身障聯盟等等團體也快速的來提出連署呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2387.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2405.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
在大法官任期將至的敏感時機倉促的提出憲法訴訟法的修法就是有意要透過立法權單方面停止司法權的運作造成憲法法庭的停擺而在野黨透過本次修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2407.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2431.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不如要藉著修法來恫嚇影響憲法法庭週五即將進行國會擴權法案的宣判也因為今天快速的修了憲法訴訟法就可以讓大法官人事同意權無限制的停擺因為只要修過了翁曉玲委員的版本未來將沒有任何一屆的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2432.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2451.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
大法官可以達到你所說的法定人數如果同意權持續擺爛不予審查的話所以今天我們要嚴肅的在進入審查前提出兩個訴求第一個先審大法官人事同意權再來研議憲法訴訟法的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2452.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2462.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
必須先讓立委依法要擅盡立委的憲法忠誠義務再行進入憲法訴訟法的討論否則將會造成憲法法庭的空轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2469.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2494.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二個訴求這樣一個攸關國家法制憲政基礎的修法我們需要嚴肅的召開公聽會我剛剛快速的把握時間為大家宣讀目前聯署的民間團體法界的專業人士律師界人權界大家都認為這樣的倉促修法不宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2496.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2511.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼這麼多民間的聲音立法院不能視而不見重要的憲法訴訟法在當初2019年2018年立法的時候司法院召開了兩次的公聽會在2020年 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2515.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2543.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一百一十二年啊一百一十一年一修的時候也在立法院召開過憲法訴訟法修法的公聽會而今天憲法訴訟法的修正是完全把法定原額現有原額還有裁決數要達三分之二這麼根本關鍵的問題卻沒有任何公聽會的形式來彙聚民間的聲音所以再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2545.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2563.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
民間團體大表遺憾大表譴責民間團體的專業意見應當可以在立法院的議事殿堂透過公聽會行使對於憲法訴訟法修法多元的對話在野黨不要害怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2563.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2584.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第二大法官的人事同意權該行使就行使總統府在8月30就已經將資文送進立法院現在連審查都沒有排審那麼何以急速的來快修癱瘓憲法法庭運作的憲法訴訟法呢立法再大 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2585.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2587.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
也不能凌駕司法權立委再大也不能一再的因為害怕釋憲就來毀憲我們要求有公聽會讓社會來多元對話不能倉促修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2601.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2615.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第二 修法之前立法院擅盡憲政機關的忠誠義務大法官人事同意權必須啟動審查必須來行使立委的法定職責謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請鐘嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2632 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2656.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席我先說明我這個是會議詢問不是程序問題那會議詢問主要因為同樣是擔任召委輪值過所以要請教我們主席會議詢問說今天的列席備詢的官員其實不能備詢啦說明啦因為今天司法院他們來到立法院他們並沒有向立法院接受立法委員詢問之義務啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2658.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2682.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因為憲法講得很清楚嘛這個憲法第57條行政院向立法院負責所以行政院各部會的首長政務官有到立法院接受詢問的義務但是今天呢同樣的我們在談憲法訴訟法我們特別邀請司法院因為現在沒有秘書長現在是副秘書長黃秘書長代理那還請來了憲法法庭的書記廳的廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2685.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2712.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
但是他們或許可以來說明憲法訴訟法當中包括提案人所提出的現有總額要改為法定總額這樣的修法意旨在未來或者過去憲法法庭或是大法官審理案件的時候的一個做法但是本席很好奇的要請教於主席能否也邀請到號稱國會百科全書的本院周萬蘭秘書長來到會 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2714.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2716.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2740.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2766.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他說立法院會議需有立法委員總額三分之一出席使得開會這裡寫立法委員總額那總額怎麼定呢前項立法院總額以每會期實際報到人數為計算基準但在會期中辭職、去職或死亡的減除之啊也就是說立法院自己開會的時候我們的法定人數怎麼去計算職權刑事法寫得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2767.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2786.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但是換到我們省自己立法院之緣心事我們同意啊我們立法院開會的時候的額數問題呢是扣掉去職死亡辭職的而且要以單會期由來報到的那就我理解這就是現有人數的意思就是現有總額的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2787.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2805.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是輪到我們要審憲法訴訟法的時候立法委員自己提案把這個憲法總和改成法定總和是依憲法徵修條文第四條對不起第五條的規定大法官的額數問題那徵修條文第四條寫立法委員第七屆開始113人 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2808.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2823.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是不是以後我們立法院開會我們的總額就憲法正確法文第四條這113人做基準的還是根據我們立法院執行法的規定來按照這個方式來計算呢能不能請主席才是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2824.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2839.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
趕快請我們立法院國會百科全書的周萬能秘書長來幫我們好好地解答一下立法院跟司法院總而運作的總的方法怎麼計算聽聽立法院秘書長的說法請主席採視宗嘉斌委員我這邊跟你提醒一下我們今天審的是憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2846.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2874.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好那第二個就是說如果你對這個有興趣那你下次可以排案你來請他來嘛對不對這是主席的權利嘛對不對那你下次當主席你可以請他來啊然後這第三個如果對什麼東西原額你都要比照比照什麼啊這個那你要不要去質疑普通刑庭法院的合議庭為什麼是三個人是固定人數為什麼五個人是固定人數這個講這個沒有意思我們今天審查的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2875.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2886.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
對他他問我他請我說明嗎那他剛剛不是請我說明嗎他剛剛請我說明那我現在在說明嗎那你要不要讓我說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2888.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2889.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好謝謝我們主席的指示齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2909.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2934.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那也就是說主席樂見我下次輪值召委的時候我請周萬南秘書長來就憲法訴訟法及立法委員職權刑事法關於額數的問題怎麼樣運作是不是這意思我現在跟各位提醒一下我們今天審的是憲法訴訟法不是其他條不是其他法條好謝謝各位那下一位我們請審博洋委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2945.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2949.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好,那沈博洋會議詢問那我覺得這個真的是噩夢就是說在上個會期的時候我們就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2952.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2976.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
在審這個國會擴權法案是這一個跟監察權之間的衝突當時的這一個法案就是想要把監察權整個廢掉那現在我們遇到的是立法權不只要把監察院的職權廢掉現在是要廢掉整一個司法權所以呢我一開始先講一個比較程序上的問題就是說因為前面這一個我看到30條跟43條30條是判決43條是暫時處分它這個已經進步二讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2981.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3002.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但問題就出在這裡,如果我們今天要討論現在到底到法官的這個原額,它的現有總額是多少,那另外修正的這個30條跟這一個43條,它也是跟人數有關,照理說它應該在一起審查才對,那為什麼要把那兩條先經負二讀,然後把這一個現在留在這裡,這聽起來不太合理嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3003.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3022.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以一開始就已經沒有打算要好好來討論這一個法條因為有些法條近乎二讀有一些法條留在這裡這個在程序上其實是不完備的那第二個我要提的就是這一個實質的影響我們在手板上面都有寫這個是有癱瘓憲法法庭的疑慮我們現在不是只有剛剛講的那幾條32、43、31、26、30、75、80、87全部都有這樣的一個問題而且它跟12條到底有沒有衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3033.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3048.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個其實在這個司法院的報告其實裡面也都有提到所以很多技術上的細節根本就沒有在這一個法條的修正裡面被討論跟展現更不要講說如果今天法定總額就是現有總額的話那如果以立法技術來講當時就寫總額兩個字不就好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3052.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3052.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
憲法訴訟法定總額及憲有總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3070.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3087.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我來看一下這個第82卷第二期當時這個王秘書長假以的發言跟那個黃委員新方跟他之間的詢答裡面就講得很清楚這個現有總額就不是法定總額那當然我也可以看到就是這個國民黨可能有提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3087.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3114.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
今天之所以會修正是因為其他國家這樣規定但問題是美國基本上跟終生制沒有兩樣日本呢他也是類似終生制只是他有一個年歲的一個上限那他十年的那個類似罷免的機制基本上是沒有在運作那法國提名的有三種不同的資格人跟台灣更不一樣所以呢這個完全都跟台灣不一樣的情形那為什麼台灣今天要這樣規定台灣最特別的地方是在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3114.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3119.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案。． |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3132.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3158.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以我還是要再次強調就是說以現在的這樣一個框架來講如果我們不先處理人事權的一個規定那麼我們現在往下來修這樣的一個總額的規定完全就是把司法權視若於無物那我也可以看到手板上面寫什麼這個是什麼挺賴的大法官什麼等等之類的我想說這個統計沒有學好這是虛假關係我們舉個例子比如說今天大法官很關心兒童福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3159.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3164.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
假設賴總統也很關心兒童福利那結果兩個人都關心兒童福利所以這個叫做擁賴大法官嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3165.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3190.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
如果一個人很關心老人的福利然後一個大法官也關心老人的福利那這樣呢如果他跟民進黨一致難道就是綠的大法官嗎這就是一個非常危險的一種說法嘛故意把人權相關的主張跟法律原則相關的主張把它扣在一起然後就說這個是親綠的這個是永賴的這個無助於我們這個正常的討論沒有想到我們國會議堂上面竟然還可以出現這樣的手板謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3191.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3194.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主席各位同仁我想今天這個所排的這個案子我想這個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3221.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3237.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
大家我們一定要先說明清楚讓國人知道說今天為什麼這個有關這個憲法這個這個有關這個憲法判決案的這個這個法案的審查為什麼他是要癱瘓這個我們的憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3239.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3257.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
現在依照這個憲法徵修條文第五條這司法院設大法官15人也就是說在這一次的這個立法說明所謂的我們這次修法的所謂法定總額其實嚴格講也不是法定總額他是憲法定的他不是法律定的總額他就是憲定總額憲法定的總額就是15人那這個這個按照我們現在這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3267.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3273.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
憲法審判法,包括從第12條開始,12條,26條,30條,32條,43條,49條,75條,80條,87條,全部都有牽涉到現有總額的規定。那這現有總額的規定,裡面就是有說必須要現有總額,比如說三分之二的人參與評議,或者必須要有三分之二的人同意。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3292.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3307.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
等等這些規定都是以現有總額來計算但是今天國民黨提案我們今天所要審查的就是說要把現有總額改成法定總額也就是說我們在今年的這個在即將到了10月31號就這個禮拜10月31號我們到了之後我們有總共有這個7位大法官任期屆滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3318.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3344.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
接下來呢其實在2個月前8月31號這個總統府就已經把這個接下來續任新任的新聘的大法官的這個同意權名單送到我們立法院來但立法院拖到現在一直都不審查連協商都沒有協商也就是說從11月1號開始我們的大法官人數15人減掉這7人我們只剩下8個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3345.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3351.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們只剩8個大法官那這8個大法官呢未來如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3352.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3378.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
強行修法通過把現有總額等於法定總額也就是說我們所有在這個法律裡面的這些大法官的這個憲法審判裡面所有需要的要件全部需要現有總額本來是現有總額現有總額的意思是什麼就是說我們現在有缺七個人但是現有總額就是八個人用八個人來做基礎來計算需要二分之一同意需要三分之二通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3380.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3404.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
但是我們立法院到現在不審查大法官的同意權卻先審查我們的這個先修改我們將現有總額修改成法定總額就是剛講的15人也是未來都必須要15個人的半數15個人的三分之二來通過那是多少呢也就是15個人的三分之二就是10個人啊但是未來大法官只有8個人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3405.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3413.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
也就是說從通過這個法律開始11月1號開始我們的司法我們司法院大法官的這個憲法法庭就癱瘓了就癱瘓了我們今天如果通過這個法11月下個禮拜我們的憲法法庭就癱瘓了我們看到國民黨提這個案子我們真的是非常非常的遺憾而且非常非常憤怒了國民黨他們現在齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3432.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3449.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我們今天這個案子讓司法院的憲法法庭癱瘓然後考試院不審理考試委員讓考試院癱瘓行政院不審理總預算讓行政院癱瘓監察院是任期還沒到捏要不然監察院也要被他們癱瘓是什麼樣的人會這樣子整個中華民國政府他們的目的就是癱瘓中華民國政府五院裡面現在他們就癱瘓三院 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3461.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3461.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我希望國民黨懸來勒馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3487.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3494.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
等一下不要再看到用人數強行停止討論付諸經負表決等一下用人數碾壓然後把這個案子就通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3496.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3496.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
議員翁曉玲請大家注意一下發言時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3523.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3542.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
主席還有在場的各位委員政府官員和各位媒體記者們大家好剛剛審判委員說我們這次提的這個憲法訴訟法的修法案是在癱瘓這個國家癱瘓這個政府我要請問到底是誰在癱瘓中華民國的民主法治 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3544.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3562.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們立法院上個會期辛苦的通過國會改革法案希望能夠強化立法院的職權結果這個法都還沒有開始實施就已經提起釋憲 申請釋憲大法官又把我們的法案又做成暫時處分然後現在預計 過了兩個月 但預計這個星期五應該是會做宣判 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3568.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3584.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們通過的NCC組織法通過的這個禁法補償條例原住民的禁法補償條例法律都通過了行政院還可以不依法編列預算他們現在還要再申請釋憲到底是誰在癱瘓民主法制賴清德總統提了一群不適任不適格的大法官名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3593.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3600.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
到底是誰在癱瘓憲法法庭不是立法院今天我們提出的要將憲法訴訟法大法官現有總額明定就是憲法這修條文裡面所講的大法官15人這有什麼不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3621.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3635.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
從過去的法制史嚴格來看就是這樣啊就是15個人啊只是說以前的大法官們憲法法庭他們有良心他們有專業道德良知知道說不可能少數人就開會但是現在這批大法官不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3637.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3657.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
大法官缺額7個人根本連過半數甚至剩下8個人的大法官就可以開會就可以做成影響人民重要權利的憲法判決甚至推翻我們立法院人民意志所通過的法律這樣是正確的嗎韓國日本法國 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3664.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3678.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
等等這些憲法法院機構他們都有明定最低的開會的法定出席人數我們現在台灣沒有這樣子的一個明定最低的開會的出席人數所以以至於在 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3680.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3695.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
極端的情況剩下的這八位大法官如果裡面有三位迴避或四位迴避那只剩下五位大法官然後過半數三個人就可以確認就可以通過一個憲法裁判這不是不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3696.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3718.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
大家不要忘記了我們現在中華民國我們還有這個三四十條都是跟死刑有關的條文大法官這次只做了四個條文是宣告死刑是有條件核限的但是已經造成實質廢死的效果接下來難保不會大法官再挺身而出再做出死刑是違憲的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3720.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3736.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
更何況現在的大法官呢他不是積極的會去幫人民去處理人民的申請釋憲案他優先處理的是什麼優先處理就是民進黨政府不滿意立法院所通過的法律預算案就紛紛的提起釋憲我們怎麼能夠容許這樣的一群大法官他沒有民主正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3745.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3771.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
然後審查法案也不夠嚴謹的情況之下讓他們接下來的這兩三個月然後繼續去審案呢這就是本席所提出來為什麼要修改憲法訴訟法的最重要的一個原因我們希望能夠健全憲法法庭的制度謝謝因為今天比較劍拔弩張所以待會我還是比較希望說那個有人在發言的時候大家不要去打斷他 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3773.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3777.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
主席首先有一個建議待會我們要審法案程序發言一輪就好了給主席的建議那主席再採取剛剛沈博洋說這個修法是噩夢 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3801.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3818.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
其實我要跟民進黨講民進黨你把大法官當超夢啦什麼惡夢你把民進黨大法官當超夢把大法官當成民進黨的超夢把大法官當成民進黨的神奇寶貝 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3820.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3845.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
只要今天不符合民進黨的意識神奇寶貝超夢就上場了一掃千秋不是嗎?國會改革全世界都有聽證調查就有這個神奇寶貝大法官幫民進黨洗地然後現在禮拜五就要宣布了先給緊急署份凍結更好笑的是更可惡的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3846.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3856.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
全民百分之八十以上反對廢除死刑只因為民進黨黨綱你記著廢除死刑結果這個神奇寶貝操夢大法官又出來洗地了結果就變成實質廢死了現在連個禁法補償卓永泰也說欸操夢出來喔神奇寶貝出來了洗地的時間到了我要釋憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3870.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3878.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我給你再打一次機會喔一次而已喔一次而已喔好好珍惜不然沙漠又要出來洗地了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3879.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3903.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以什麼叫噩夢啊今天大法官的尊嚴就是被你民進黨踐踏在腳底下我在講吳思瑤什麼叫癱瘓吳思瑤數學不好啦我先跟各位講一件事情大法官在實質廢死不是做了一個很偉大的宣誓嗎死刑要一字決我先不跟你講死刑一字決今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3905.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3930.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
議員翁曉玲的提案也就是把現有定為所謂憲法規定的名額回復憲法而已回復那個15個人的規定然後再看出席的人數沒有講你要一字決大法官任何的事獻出來不就是今天國家50年百年的事情都被大法官決定了死刑要一字決要慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3931.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3935.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
大法官今天做國家大政憲法方針不用慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3936.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3960.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
但無視要來了 我跟你講數學不好不然算數學啦 很簡單 只要民進黨現在才叫癱瘓整個中華民國啊各位你知道嗎 今天如果沒有翁曉玲出來修法 你知道今天是什麼局面嗎民進黨就是搞一個七個廢死大法官 呃六個 七個大法官提名 六個廢死然後就讓你在野黨沒辦法通過嘛 因為八成民意反廢死嘛 他故意的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3961.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3978.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那接下來八個名額我跟各位講 照明顯現在捍衛這版本會產生什麼情況八個人三分之二出席叫六個出席然後照現在八個人過半五個人就可以決定這個所謂任何的這個國家憲法的決定你以為五個人而已啊按照憲法訴訟法按照規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3986.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3988.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4004.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4014.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
就可以所謂的殺人無罪關人違憲哪什麼可能我告訴你就曾經發生過今天大法官6個迴避就發生過就發生過6個迴避處理台大的案件有6個台大的教授什麼叫有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4023.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4046.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我要告訴你一大五個人可以決定的時候 這個法制大漏洞誰補就是誰補所以今天我有曉玲其實是為了捍衛大法官的尊嚴為了捍衛我們憲政體系的尊嚴所以呢我們今天要來修補這個漏洞數學不好我教你數學沒關係齁那請不要把大法官當作洗地的神奇寶貝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4049.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4076.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
因為剛剛我們有提到說程序發言我們先第一輪那因為有人已經填第二次了嘛那我們現在先停止發言登記那待會如果有需要走電沒有沒有沒有待會如果有需要的話那我們再不是我剛剛一開始不是說我們先做第一輪的我們剛剛有說了我們先做第一輪的程序發言嘛那這樣就不要重複我們等一下講完之後然後我們看有沒有需要第二輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4077.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4106.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
不是我說我剛剛有講嘛我一開始開議的時候沒有沒有沒有我們等結束之後好不好因為不是我跟你講如果這樣的話那這樣議事沒有辦法進行嘛我不是說不再做我剛剛有講了我說先做第一輪嘛一開始的時候對那如果說我們待會第一輪發言完畢有需要我們就進行第二輪好那我們現在先停止法院登記好那我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4112.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4114.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
謝謝主席還有我們在場的委員各位媒體朋友今天我們在立法院裡面這個好好的仔細去 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4124.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4151.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
回想過去的整個憲政的一個發展立法院今天其實叫做過河拆橋啦這個叫做過河拆橋我等一下再來論述為什麼叫做過河拆橋啦我剛剛也聽到了我們翁曉玲委員去提到說申請釋憲是癱瘓整個民主的一個法制這句話是讓我嚇了一大跳 嚇了一大跳司法法制委員會我是要跟你們開會很煩的你知道嗎因為我們司法法制委員會數值真的沒有很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4152.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4175.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
然後提了一大堆非常爭議的一些法案出來我為什麼去講說我們司法法制委員會尤其是我們立法院國民黨的朋友其實可以仔細去回想一下我為什麼說我們這個是過河拆橋呢你去把它看看1999年我們大法官會議做成的4至261號解釋正式的去宣告萬年國會之權侵蝕只能到1991年也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4181.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4205.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
今天立法院的職權的一個確立是因為1999年做出來的4-261號到了1997年第四次修憲的時候又碰到問題了那當年是李登輝老總統在台灣首度總統職選中他獲勝搭檔的是連戰副總統那後來變成說副總統到底可不可以兼任行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4206.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4226.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
又產生了憲政上的一個爭議因為兩個職權是不一致的後來連戰先生就按照內閣制的精神就辭掉了整個行政院院長那我在這邊要講的就是說其實啊整個憲政台灣的一個憲政的一個進步啊他是一個浮動性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4227.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4230.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
哪怕當年是國民黨一黨專政威權的一個統治大法官會議當初做出這樣的一個解釋以後整個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4239.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4265.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
大步向前邁進那個時候我相信也沒有人會去講說大法官你是神喔大法官你毀憲你亂證喔我相信當初也沒有這樣子各位再去把它想想看在第五次修憲的時候啊第五次修憲的時候為什麼因為1號大法官會議解釋出來以後呢就把你宣告整個第五次的一個修憲全部無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4266.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4283.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那如果以現金來看的話那你國民黨一定講說這個大法官無法無天啊這個就是整個台灣憲政的一個整個的一個發展啊所以呢呃國民黨的朋友跟民眾黨的朋友其實總預算啊本來這一個會期是要審總預算啊那總預算現在也沒有辦法順利排進去啊我們時間其實是多得很啊實在是多得很啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4292.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4298.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我記得國民黨的朋友最喜歡講說要公聽要公聽要尋求社會的一個共識那這樣的一個法案我老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4303.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4319.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
今天提出這整個憲法這三個憲法訴訟法的一個三個條文裡面啊涉及到整個對重大制度的一個變革啊我誠心的建議啊這如果主席你是來教你講你自己來採視下去啊我們應該比較深重的來講聽話讓社會這樣可以更大的一個共識這個我相信這個才是才是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4329.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4343.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
根本否則你今天看看從憲法訴訟法第四條大法官緣和的一個大法官的一個總額還有30條跟43條的雙三分之二甚至於95條的修正日期以現在來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4346.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4363.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
衝突到底會不會大當然非常大翁曉玲委員這樣的一個提案你說他完全沒有道理嗎道也不是道也不是完全沒有道理可是你這個產生的衝擊這麼大的時候你有沒有配套我每次看到國民黨在試圖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4365.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4376.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
試圖做一些重大的一個抗爭的時候尤其是動到整個憲法法庭的時候我告訴各位國民黨稍微起來一個氣勢常常就因為你去選擇跟大法官會議這樣對幹現在選擇跟憲法法庭這樣一個對幹國民黨會距離人民會越來越遠這個國家真的是大家一起的我最後要講的就是說你試著去把它想想看到去年之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4395.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4420.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
現任和憲政機關提出的事件案都是個位數一年大法官會議裡面在憲法法庭裡面接受人民的私信申請權力的一個救濟都是上千件那結果你只因為一個單一的個案或者說因為整個死刑要不要存費你就認為你這個大法官全部好像是執政黨的打手要把這個制度給癱瘓掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4422.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4428.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
先聽聽外界的意見好不好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請林思明委員發言謝謝主席那我想針對剛才莊惠雄委員他提到說翁曉玲委員的修法不是沒有道理我很高興聽到莊委員有這樣的一個肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4450.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4457.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
但是我覺得說民進黨現在就是就是你們陷入一個政治算計的一個局面你一直說我們會癱瘓整個憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4460.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4487.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
實際上,我們從頭到尾,到現在為止,我跟吳士堯科視長報告,我們沒有據審所謂的人事審查案。不管考試委員,現在我們也在協商看怎麼樣來審查考試院的人事案。司法院的大法官的人事案,我們也希望趕快能夠立法院議事處來排審。你們提出說看是提案,到我們院長那邊我們來協商。 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4489.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4513.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
看什麼時候來審查考試院司法院大法官的人事案其實我為什麼講說各位充滿算計呢其實翁曉玲委員的這個修法提案非常有道理難道各位贊成我們憲法法庭的大法官在審法案的時候有少數幾位來決定我們的憲法的相關的一個解釋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4514.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4535.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
你們贊成嗎?三位四位就可以決定我們憲法的相關的一些重要的法律案的一個觀點嗎?這樣就淪為一個少數的觀點根本不夠多元啊各位想想今天為什麼我們會把大法官設定為15位在國外很多的國家只有9位 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4536.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4552.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們當初立法的意旨就是希望有更多的大法官提出他的一個法律的見解然後他的最後的一個評議的門檻同意的這個最後判決的門檻是要達到三分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4553.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4578.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以我們因為當初法律的漏洞造成說我們現在只有幾個大法官就可以做出憲法的一個裁判這是非常危險的這對我們人民的權益的保障是非常非常的可以陷入一個非常危險的境界也就是說幾個人我們學理上所謂的管件狹隘的觀點就可以決定我們的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4579.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4602.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我想這完全不符合憲政的原理也不符合我們民主法制的一個原理所以我們認為說這個這一次的修法完全就是在實踐實質的正義捍衛我們一個正義的一個觀點所以我希望各位委員我們經過充分的討論之後大家你有你的看法你提出修正意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4603.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4618.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
但是最後我們整個討論程序完畢之後我們還是要以民主的程序讓這部法案到底要不要完成三讀我希望大家能夠坐下來好好的討論而不是用一下子就設定各種的一個你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4618.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4640.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我再補充一下,如果說各位認為說我們在癱瘓我們的憲法法庭,讓大法官如果審查不通過的話,造成憲法法庭沒有辦法召開,其實我個人就很疑惑,那總統就趕快補提名啊,難道你一直讓不適任的大法官一直送到立法院,讓我們立法院照單全收嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4641.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4655.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我們不是立法局我們要實質審查這些大法官到底有沒有專業學術有沒有專精是否超然獨立這才是重點而不是總統提名我們就一定要照單權說所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4657.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4679.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
最重要要把這個鑰匙打開的是總統你總統趕快補提名進來那我們依照總統提名的這些被提名的人審查然後我相信最後一定會通過我們的大法官那個人數不可能會造成所謂憲法法庭的一個癱瘓以上謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請鐘嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4687.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4716.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
主席因為第一輪發言我登記了一個會議詢問一個程序發言那剛剛是會議詢問會議詢問是就叫主席為何今日的會議並沒有邀請我們立法院號稱國會活字典的周冠藍秘書長那主席剛剛的裁示是說因為今天審的是憲法訴訟法只要司法院來就可以了那如果按照這個標準以後只有主管機關法條的主管機關來就好了其他的機關就不用來我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4717.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4738.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
不只是司法法制委員會其他各委員會只要跟所審定的法案相關的機關都得請求主席排定邀請他們來詢問我要說的今天司法院他們不是來備詢他們是就本院我們來要修改憲法訴訟法就司法院的立場提出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4739.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4749.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那如果是行政院只要我們審查的法條我們認為有必要相關他根據行政院對立法院負責有備詢之義務他就要來這邊做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4750.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4773.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那如果是立法院自己的秘書長呢那更不用講啦立法委員要請秘書長來講說明一下過去立法院對於現有總和怎麼認定的也是可以講但是呢既然主席認為說請中委員擔任輪值召委的時候再來排那我也樂於接納啦就像之前我們上一期在修立法院職員刑事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4773.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4773.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4789.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4817.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
主席請求一下是不是剛剛前面有幾位委員有提到說是否為了慎重起見我們也來排一個公聽會為什麼呢因為大家口口聲聲說目前我們這個過去的這個憲判也好事件也好都是由民進黨總統提名民進黨國會多數都通過很抱歉在2003年陳水扁總統是第一次政黨輪替的少數總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4819.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4846.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
國會多數民進黨沒有喔民進黨沒有喔但是呢馬英九總統呢一上任他所提名的大法官包括在2008年11月1號就任的陳春生大法官完全是多數當選的馬英九總統國民黨外有國會多數的習慣要同意任命的到現在我們沒有對那個時期從二零這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4848.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4874.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
零八年的十一月一號到二零一五年這一批大法官的釋制我們都接受所以我們要清楚連陳水扁總統時候所任命的大法官也是國民黨跟其他在野政黨居多數的政黨所同意通過的所以現在千萬不要說這個大法官是誰的大法官我們就請啊包括陳孫生前大法官來稍微給我們示意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4875.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4896.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
當所謂的不同時期的總統不同政黨的總統所提名經過國會多數任命的大法官他所做的釋制所做的憲判我們立法院有沒有憲法忠誠的義務必須要來遵守請求主席是不是我們在會議的程序我講一波主席都沒在聽不是因為還沒到時間還沒在聽啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4907.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4927.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我的程序發言是說請求召開公聽會還是你又要叫我來開我跟你講中召委如果你要排什麼我們都尊重你要我請開公聽會跟我們怎麼這邊節奏我們我們訴訟法我排個公聽會你也同意就對了同意排公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4929.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4953.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們沒有同意不同意這個事情嘛你又不是受我指揮的人所以你要怎麼排你就排嘛你要怎麼排是你你自己決定嘛跟我有什麼關係若我是你的長官我就會叫你做什麼事但我不是嘛好不好再麻煩你你要怎麼決定我們都不干涉那我們下一位請洪森翰委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4969.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4991.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主席那今天各位司法法制委員會的同仁我想今天所有在場的委員不分黨派我想大家心裡都非常清楚我們今天打算要審議的憲法訴訟法尤其是翁曉玲委員現在的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4993.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5005.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這真的是攸關臺灣民主憲政制度一個非常非常非常影響重大的修法如果今天國民黨沒有覺得他 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5006.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5031.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個影響很重大 其實今天大概也不會是這個陣容還要做牌子什麼的 那當然民進黨當然覺得這個影響非常重大我可以跟大家說 這不是只有藍綠或者是藍綠白三個政黨覺得影響重大連這個社會裡面 很多過去學習過法律 有法律專業 有訴訟經驗甚至申請過大法官釋憲的人 人民喔 都知道這 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5032.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5054.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
影響非常非常重大我只今天想問一個問題如果這麼重大的法案今天要在立法院裡面審議現在喔也許今天從國民黨的角度覺得哎呀你執政黨就是政治護航啦從民進黨的角度就覺得國民黨你們就是政治報復司法院啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5055.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5078.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那為什麼不讓這個社會上面有法律專業有訴訟專業有法律素養的人一起到司法法制委員會的公聽會上面來談一談來評論一下為什麼今天國民黨跟翁曉玲不敢面對社會上面的法律專業者的評價如果敢面對我建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5084.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5085.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
就先排公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5087.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5116.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
也許今天翁曉玲委員可以找得到支持她的法律學者也許你也可以找得到但我認為讓這個社會上面對這件事情關心甚至是擔憂的人一起到委員會裡面用公聽會的形式正式公聽會的形式大家就來談嘛如果你覺得你的主張是對的為什麼不敢經過大家社會這些專業界的檢驗我要跟大家講這件事情已經影響很多法律專業界的恐慌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5120.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5137.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我當然不是大法官但已經很多民間團體很多法律專業的組織現在正在連署甚至也召開記者會大家現在把這不是民進黨說的這些民間專業團體他說這是把人民訴訟權當做人質這是當作政治攻防的犧牲品這都是民進黨講的不是民進黨講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5147.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5170.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
如果你覺得民進黨就是政治護航那讓這些專業意見來委員會裡面講一講來評判一下今天林思明委員你也是律師啊請你的律師朋友請你贊成你的主張的一起到司法委員會來公聽會裡面大家來討論來辯論嘛為什麼國民黨不敢為什麼思明委員不敢為什麼翁曉玲委員不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5174.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5191.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
讓專業者讓專業意見進來提供意見為什麼不敢?我當然要注意時間但我現在要講的事情是有上來這麼多的人關心這件事情憂慮這件事情讓這些憂慮的人或贊成的人也許有些人贊成我不知道我覺得可能很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5194.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5205.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
司法委員會來評論一下所以主持人我要說我們先召開公聽會這麼重大影響的法案必須力求審慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5207.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5226.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
必須經過社會專業界的檢驗就這麼簡單但我們現在看到國民黨只想硬幹在這些法律專業的法案裡面只想硬幹只想進行的他們憲法法庭這是我們現在看到國民黨正在幹的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5228.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5244.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
麻煩一下各位委員注意一下時間待會我們第一輪的陳俊宇發言結束的時候我們先休息五分鐘然後我們大家稍微討論一下是不是開始需要進行第二輪謝謝各位接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5259.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5281.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
主席各位委員那我們今天所要審查的這個條文其實連動已經建附二讀的相關的條文那對於這個憲法訴訟的這個制度會有重大的改變必須是以最審慎的這種態度來面對才對所以我們認為應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5284.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5303.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
是要先召開這個公聽會能夠廣邀這個憲法學者及各界的這些專家對於現行的這個憲法訴訟的制度的運作來進行廣泛的討論及深入的檢討在延商是否要對制度進行這個變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5305.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5326.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
而非再一次要透過這種人數的優勢將草案直接闖關並且為了避免這個憲法法庭發生無限期的空轉那停擺的情況也應該要先審查大法官的人事同意權來維護憲法法庭能夠正常的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5328.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5343.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果說不先審查大法官人士就不應該要審查憲法的訴訟法案當我們立法院片面的去改變憲法法庭的可決 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5345.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5360.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第九十五條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5371.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5394.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
造成司法權在行使職權上的障礙更可能會違反權利分立的原則我想切勿立法凌駕司法意圖要來癱瘓憲法法庭而立法院我們也有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5396.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5419.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
行使這個職權盡快的對大法官人士來進行審查讓我們憲政機關能夠實質的這個程序正常運作避免憲政機關陷入空轉的這個窘境並且這個憲法訴訟的制度也不應該作為政治攻防的這個籌碼若憲法法庭真的不信被癱瘓 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5421.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5430.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這不但是對人民訴訟的權益造成損害也會造成司法權無法制衡行政權及立法權的這種濫權行為導致權力間的這個制衡受到嚴重的破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5437.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5460.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
憲政秩序將難以維持將落入憲政的危機而當這個違憲擴權的行為成為常態損害的將是台灣民主與法治所以在此我希望在野黨能夠所有的同仁能夠三思對於這個我們今天所要審查的這個相關的條文應該做審慎的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5465.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5486.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
謝謝那下一位我們請審法會委員發言那審法委員發言結束後我們就休息五分鐘不是我剛剛有說就是我們第一輪發言完畢之後休息五分鐘大家討論一下是不是開啟第二輪的發言我剛剛有提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5492.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5514.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
主席各位同仁我本來想說今天這個法案是國民黨掛羊頭賣狗肉的一個法案是掛憲法訴訟法的羊頭然後在賣貪患憲法法庭的狗肉結果沒想到剛剛聽了一輪不是餒不是餒他們是掛狗頭賣狗肉餒 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5515.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5520.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他們上來就直接講了他們說我這個法跟憲法訴訟法沒有關係我這個法就是要癱瘓我們就是要癱瘓憲法法庭因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5526.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5548.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為這個賴總統提名的不失任的大法官所以在下個禮拜以後大法官只剩八席八席以後三分之二只剩幾個人幾個人來決定也就他們直接就他們提這個法案目的就是要癱瘓11月1號以後的大法官會議居然講得這麼明這讓我很驚訝讓我今天所準備的東西可能都沒有用了因為你們都直接承認你們就是要癱瘓憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5550.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5569.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
但是這所有的這些前提就是他們認為就他們說這個賴總統提名的大法官不適任啊應該要趕快賴總統要趕快再重新重新提名啊我們要照單全收嗎各位這些大法官提名人適任不適任是誰說了算啊是翁曉玲說了算嗎是林士敏說了算嗎還是Call in節目說了算還是地下電台說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5576.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5596.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
當然不是嘛當然是立法院審查結果說的算嘛這些大法官提名人是任不是任不是我們在這裡說誰是任誰不是任而是最後到底是不是任是立法院審查之後有通過同意的他就是是任沒有不同意的他就是不是任這麼簡單的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5599.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5619.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以今天國民黨所說的我覺得這個邏輯今天這個法案今天如果要修法很簡單他的前提就是因為提名的大法官不失任所以未來他會不足而那我們就大法官會的人事同意權先審啊先來看到底是不是像翁曉玲講的是不是像林思銘講的說都不失任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5620.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5634.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們就來審查先審查大法官人事同意權如果頭頭不施認哇憲法法庭運作有他們擔心的說少數人來決定那我們再來修改這個也不遲阿以你們的人數多數一天就可以碾壓過阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5636.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5655.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以我希望主席我們要調整這個程序這個法案應該要在人事同意權審查之後再審查這個是不辨自明的他們自己也講的啦也講說他們今天提這個案的前提就是因為他們覺得現在所提名的人不適任那就來審查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5657.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5680.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個另外一個最重要的重點就是他們所講的這些解釋什麼憲法法院的判決講廢死啦講死刑啦講這個國會擴權啦各位憲法法院的判決不是只有這個而且這個是在裡面很少數大部分的憲法法院的判決都是攸關人民權益他是人民權益的最後救濟手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5681.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5700.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們今天癱瘓憲法法庭不是癱瘓他們做這些政有關他們關心的死刑跟這個國會擴權的解釋而已是剝奪了人民權益最終救濟手段我們用一條憲法訴訟法的修正再加上不審人這個人事同意權來剝奪中華民國國民的權益的最後救濟手段這樣對嗎以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5711.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5715.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
謝謝,那我們先休息五分鐘,然後大家討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6279.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6288.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們現在開始開會因為有委員提出說希望進行第二輪的程序發言那我們就麻煩到前面來登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6363.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6392.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6396.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6409.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
今天歐委員的提案我覺得恰如其分今天去考驗看看最早到法官的機制是要四分之三出席、三分之二通過不要忘了我們修憲的門檻是要四分之三、四分之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6418.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6435.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
各位這個大法官他是一個等於是一個正義的最後的一道防線門檻當然要高啊越高越好啊我再強調一遍修憲就要四分之三四分之三了為什麼你大法官這裡二分之一就可以了你現在來講的話只有八個大法官五個人就可以了是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6444.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6459.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以當然要以法定的為基礎嘛法定就是15個現在來看目前為什麼要修這個大家都很清楚嘛就大法官實現的結果違反台灣人多數的民意廢死就是啦表面沒有廢死實質廢死啦要三層三級的法官通通要贊成死刑才能夠死刑那不就等於廢死了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6474.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6492.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以現在來看的話這個大法官現在已經被抽掉了就是民進黨就是始作俑子他不要的法案他就是大法官大法官一方面當他小弟一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6493.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6497.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
總預算卡在哪裡?總預算卡的就是你違法依法不並列啊!這個法我們知道很清楚就是行政院不要從3萬提高到6萬! |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6519.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6523.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
他不要的結果我們在這裏表決贏了我們通過了你要本事你絕對不能去接受那提復議啊國會改革你都提復議為什麼禁法補償你不提復議而且賴清德總統也公告了總統公告總統公告變成一個法律案變成一個法律案你就依法要編列啊結果他依法不編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6550.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6550.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
議員翁曉玲等17人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6561.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6579.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
總預算高達三兆多二十幾億會這麼困難嗎你說我已經編好了不願意重編我們也可以給你很大的封編你只要卓榮泰院長公開跳出來說只要進入婦為進入審查我一定審定補給你追加給你預備金給你二十幾億給你就了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6584.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6589.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
站出來講一句話覺得昨天晚上今天要查尾協商總預算昨天還在講一些要找仲裁官消保會消保官的仲裁那就是大法官會議然後呢不能不行的話餐廳該把我趕走如果這樣子的話剛才其他委員講你都讓他講很久了我再講一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6612.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6618.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個卓榮泰這樣有沒有誠意啊他今天要朝野協商卓天峰那個帕 卓天峰那個帕什麼意思就是還是很強硬的要面對立法院我覺得這難道是大家心目中傳言中最會溝通的行政院長嗎是應該有這樣的態度嗎今天要出來協商卓天先態度擺出來 政章擺出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6639.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6656.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
希望在等給他倒戈他真的要離開行政院長都自己離開就好了這麼簡單的事情他只要一句話就走了所以我回來再強調一遍憲法的大法官被民進黨把他搞臭掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6657.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6675.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
大埔根本社會最大的亂雲他只要一釋憲出來社會就亂社會就亂廢死就是最好的例子百分之八十的台灣大百姓反對廢死結果他做出那個實質廢死表面上沒有廢死實際上等於廢死的一個解釋令 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6676.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6701.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
老百姓不能接受啊大法官應該是最後的皇后徵召的捍衛者結果那些不是啊是捍衛民進黨的利益啊這才是令人不知的地方所以釜底抽薪我們需要回到原來憲法修憲十分之三 十分之三這樣子稍微調整一下回到翁曉玲今天的提案本席強力支持也希望社會各界來支持讓我們大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6704.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6707.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
主席各位同仁我要再次強調癱瘓了憲法法庭架空了大法官影響的不是政黨利益影響的是全民的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6731.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6740.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我用憲法法庭新制跟舊制實質的數字我們都講數字不要造謠講謊話實質的數字來講新制就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6746.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6749.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
之後受理了1359件釋憲案這是憲法訴訟法修過之後的新制攸關人民申請的釋憲有1336件佔98% |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6763.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6786.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
救治修法前的救治受理了747件人民申請的有708件佔了95%所以從新制救治9乘5 9乘8憲法法庭解釋的都是攸關人民權利的議案比如說如果沒有憲法法庭的解釋我們不可能推動同婚法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6787.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6809.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
如果不是憲法法庭站在代理教師的權益來發聲代理教師跟專任教師的年資跟待遇不可能公平被對待這是人民的權利不是政黨的對立或是政黨的利益閹割了大法官就是對人民的權利開刀第二個我再講數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6811.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6828.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
在野黨的委員一直在說極端案例兩個三個大法官就可以解釋憲法好可怕會有單一觀點會有少數觀點決定了憲法的解釋在哪裡告訴我案例在哪裡就以憲法訴訟法修過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6831.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6842.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這幾年來48個申請釋憲案當中有11案大法官需要迴避跟自身的職責相關要迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6844.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6869.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
只有這11個案迴避但是迴避當中的10個案都還有10位以上的大法官參與評議只有一案比較特殊也有9位大法官參與評議哪裡有兩位三位決定了憲法的生死跟解釋哪裡更何況48件裡面有37件是15位大法官全程參與請告訴我極端 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6872.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6890.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
案例少數觀點一個兩個三個大法官就決定了憲法的解釋案例在哪裡講出來講出來在哪裡並沒有啊今天你們的手牌叫做拒絕濫魚充數說得好去做做社會的民調剛剛賴委員說大法官是社會的亂源 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6900.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6903.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
立委恐怕才是社會的亂源吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6904.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6926.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
不斷的提違憲法案又害怕釋憲就修法來毀憲社會都在看誰在濫魚充數我最後來這一次如果要把先有緣而改為法定緣而整法有十個條文要修連動的是十個條文不是現在問委員提的少數的兩個條文三個條文而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6933.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6940.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這需要全面來檢視今天很多委員都在講廢死廢死的這個議題社會確實關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6947.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6962.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
但是大法官的解釋死刑核限不要再製造社會的恐慌而立委負責任該做的是進行死刑核限之後的諸多修法譬如說要修刑法要修刑事訴訟法要修法院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6965.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6986.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
要修我們的監獄刑刑法我們開始來針對死刑核限啟動進步的修法我們共同這個是召委也同意的共同來推動無期徒刑不得假釋的終身監禁制度的配套這是立委要做的事而不是現在來修憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6988.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6998.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
剛剛林思明書記長說國民黨好啊趕快來選大法官同意權不反對啊非常好非常好再好也不過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6999.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7026.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
如果在野黨也同意也認同不要讓憲法法庭開天窗不要癱瘓憲法法庭那就優先即刻的啟動大法官人事同意權的審查透過審查如果你們認為有不適任的你們認為有賴於充數的行使你們的同意權你可以投下不同意票這是立委的法定職責這是我們的憲法忠誠義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7028.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7057.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
先審大法官人事同意權吧剛剛國民黨的黨編說要審會審那就先來審因為簽一法而動全身如果不先行使大法官同意權就搶修憲法訴訟法這就是此地無銀三百兩這就是明確的政治意圖你要讓憲法法庭永遠透過不行使大法官它永遠低於十個人只有八位 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7059.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7073.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
謝謝我再結論了所以這是你們綁好的一個套餐你們綁好的一個政治的作為不要自欺欺人司馬昭之心路人皆知 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7075.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7097.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
呼籲再呼籲先審大法官同意權再來研究討論憲法訴訟法是不是要修而修憲法訴訟法這麼嚴肅的事情過去從立法到第一次的修正都召開了公聽會這麼多的學者專家出面連署這麼多的法界人士出來譴責呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7100.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7100.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
下一位我們請鐘嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7134.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7157.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主席因為我們都是召委都會輪所以就跟召委之間我們互相的跟主席請教一下因為我發現我們這次第二輪的發言呢就把程序跟會議就把它融合為一體啦所以我要請教一下說我這一則要登記會議詢問我要再登記個程序發言說沒有現在會議詢問跟程序發言都次為一次那主席那我接下來的發言既有詢問也有程序的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7158.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7186.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那請問就叫主席剛剛我們提到說要邀請這個周萬來秘書長你說等到我當輪值召委當主席的時候我來排嘛你說就是這樣那我也覺得可以啊因為我覺得呢這個關於應有總和跟法定總和到底司法院跟立法院有沒有雙標有沒有因為立法院立法委員自己言以待人寬以律己那就雙標那我想邀請周萬來秘書長你說尊重我讓我來排 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7187.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7205.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這是詢問是不是這樣子的意思主席不是啊我跟你講齁我很討厭別人在扭曲我的話我最初要請教你啊好那我現在跟你們說今天你是召委我也是召委那我要怎麼排我想說我尊重你可以建議尊重對我剛才詢問你建議你要怎麼排 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7206.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7211.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
接下來就是程序問題了,因為這個程序涉及到本席下周輪至昭文有沒有這個機會,我本來想要跟你說本周四我們來兌換一下,本周四就讓我來排,我就請周萬南秘書長來解釋一下什麼叫法定總和跟應用總和,現有總和怎麼認定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7235.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7244.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那既然主席這麼慷慨那要不要我們本周是來換一下程序就是本周是我來排跟您對調可以嗎主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7247.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7254.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 及法制委員會第16條條文修正草案 案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7267.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7281.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這不可能因為我們的都已經排好了可以啦兩天前變更就可以了啦不是程序上面可不可以而是每一個議程都非常的重要好很好我也認同那下週我來排你要怎麼排那個我們都不干涉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7282.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7282.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
陳修文主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7300.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7307.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
憲法訴訟法沒有法條在本委員會我們就沒有辦法排我知道翁曉玲委員還有一個憲法訴訟法第三十一條評議人數就是議決門檻的問題已經近乎二讀了所以委員會也沒有這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7315.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7316.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我當然跟你請求阿因為今天程序你訂的阿不用阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7342.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7361.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
不是 你要怎麼排 我們都無權干涉嘛 你要怎麼排 我們都無權干涉啊 但是怎麼排必須一切依照我們這邊的法律規定 是的 那我提醒主席 我們希望如果這個問題這麼主席的認同這麼重要 你也尊重我下星期怎麼排 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7361.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7387.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我希望我們憲法訴訟法在本委員會的討論讓我有機會下週來排公聽會。謝謝我聽不懂你的邏輯啦我跟你講我完全聽不懂中召委的邏輯也不要在那邊也不要在那邊曲解別人的話啦我的說法很簡單就是中召委要排什麼會議的議程那我們都無權干涉就這麼簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7389.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7390.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
下一位我們麻煩審法會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7418.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7436.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
主席各位同仁我想經過剛才這樣子討論我想我們就來釐清林志明委員還留在這裡非常好就是你剛剛上去你也代表國民黨黨團的幹部你剛剛上去你講說今天之所以要修這個法就是因為提名的大法官不是任對不對你是這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7437.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7467.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
但是我剛剛也講了這大法官究竟是任不是任不是你林思明說的算對當然不是你說的算對大家投票沒有錯啊大家怎麼投票就是要經過同意權的審人事同意權審查嘛人事同意權審查之後大家如果人事同意權這個人事我們通過了這個大法官通過了就表示他失任這個大法官不通過就表示他不失任這個才是失任不失任不是地下電台或call in節目或者是翁曉玲講或者是林思明講嘛對不對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7468.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7489.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我認為說,所以這個是你們今天說為什麼要修這個法的理由?那所以到底適不適任呢?我們就先來審人事同意權嘛。人事同意權審完了,哇!全部通通,如果說你們全部國民黨全部通通把它否決了,全部都不,大家都,你們國民黨認為都不適任。好,那就那才進入說那怎麼辦?人數不夠了,我們是不是要來修? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7490.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7494.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
修這個憲法訴訟法這個道理就是這樣子啊為什麼會在還沒有經過人事統一權審查之前就先來審這個憲法訴訟法呢本末導致這個成語就是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7507.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7526.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
完全就本末倒置所以我希望我們今天這個法案就暫時先停止審查我們趕快讓人事同意來進入看是不是如你們所講的這些大法官都是不適任的大法官我們就來審查嘛然後最後用國會用國家法定的機制來決定他們到底適不適任嘛這是第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7528.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7553.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我剛剛上就講了這個你們現在這樣用這種方式來癱瘓11月1號以後的憲法法庭他癱瘓的不是政治他不是說癱瘓了民進黨希望怎麼樣都不是憲法法庭的判決我再講一次他是人民人民的權益的最終救濟手段我們所有的這些憲法法院的判決剛剛吳志耀委員也有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7555.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7574.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
從我們改制成憲法法庭判決之後98%的申請案都是人民申請的不是黨團或者是政府機關申請98%都是人民申請的我們今天癱瘓了你只癱瘓掉你們想要癱瘓那兩趴行政院提出申請的黨團提出申請的立法院提出申請你們想要癱瘓這兩趴卻癱瘓掉98%的人民申請的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7579.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7607.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這些東西他整個攸關於什麼他過去的這些憲法法院的判決他攸關代理教師的薪資他包括這些付稅的權益包括所有權的這土地所有權的保障包括工作權的保障包括食品衛生的相關法令規定這些通通是過去零零總總五花八門人民的權益攸關甚至攸關公益的這些食品衛生安全的相關的這些都是憲法法院判決過去判決的這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7608.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7625.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
今天如果憲法法院被你們癱瘓了未來所有的這些我剛剛所講的這些復稅權益人民退休撫恤相關的薪資這些食品安全的相關法令這些土地所有權保障工作權保障等等這些人民權益的救濟管道就被你們癱瘓了所以我在懇求我們委員會我希望說我們不要本末倒置就如你們所講的你們認為大法官不適任那我們就趕快來審查大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7638.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7658.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個前提發生之後才有到底憲法訴訟法要不要修的問題所以我們今天應該停止審查這個法案我們先來就人事同意權來看看這些大法官是不是如翁曉玲所講是不是如林思明所講的不適任我們趕快先來審嘛以上好謝謝那我們下一位請翁曉玲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7667.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7681.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我先很感慨在立法院這個場合裡面確實是看到許多沒有法律素養又不用功的委員在那裡講一些五四三的話我想首先講的誰能夠在座的有任何一個委員能夠保證這次大法官會全員通過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7692.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7707.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
如果說審了之後只有一個通過兩個通過或是根本沒有人通過的時候那時候才再來修法不覺得太慢了嗎我們現在10月31號之後10月1號起就有7位大法官卸任那麼只剩下8位大法官是留任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7712.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7740.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
就像我們剛剛講的如果說還扣除掉一些迴避的大法官那可能接下來會有少只有極少數的這個大法官會參與開會參與做成評議這個案例之前就有過啊剛剛吳四陽委員說你不知道說哪些大法官有迴避有什麼案子我告訴你110年的憲判這12號台大法學院教師評鑑案當時有多少位大法官迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7741.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7757.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
六位迴避很好謝謝審判會委員真的代表你還是有在讀點書喔那我要講的現在的大法官剩下的八位即將11月1號只剩下八位大法官裡面有幾位台大畢業的審委員你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7762.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7774.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
有五位大法官是台大畢業,所以到時候又被申請迴避呢?所以有五位被申請迴避,只剩下三位大法官。那所以呢兩位就可以作成決議喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7776.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7798.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我必須講這個就是一個不合理的制度我們現在保障什麼我們現在保障人民的憲法的這個訴訟的救濟權利司法院不要在那邊講什麼這個混淆視聽的話立法委員民進黨立法委員也不用說那些什麼會侵害損害人民的憲法救濟權我要再舉個數字我們一年大概有四五千件的人民申請事件案 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7806.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7831.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
一百一十二年被駁回率就是大法官不受理的案件的比率高達百分之九十二一百一十一年則是百分之九十七的人民的申請事件案件是不受理的以現在一百一十一年跟一百一十二年兩個年度來看大法官一年只做二十個憲法裁判哪只做二十個憲法判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7832.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7852.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
能夠被大法官選中去審查的鳳毛麟角所以不要在那裡說為什麼損害人民基本權利15個大法官的時候他的不受理率都高達92%現在只剩下8個大法官你認為他有足夠的能力再去審查那麼多案子嗎我告訴你到時候不不受理率會更高我要再講的就是這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7859.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7883.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
明定憲法法庭大法官人數把它定在15人這是我們憲法的要求啊我只修這個條文我有修說是跟迴避的人數要扣除嗎?也要算在內嗎?沒有啊所以今天司法院的報告書也是亂寫我不客氣的講要奉承上意也不是奉承上意到這種程度最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7888.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7904.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
一個很簡單的事情一個很簡單的條文從過去的法治史上面到現在很多的法律學者都有投書在清楚不過的道理民進黨委員就是要不斷的拖延程序杯葛議事 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7905.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7912.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
今天是說他們沒有霸佔主席台啦也沒有起肢體衝突這邊我要感謝他們可是呢不斷的議事的發言討論然後還要開公聽會什麼的就是很清楚的事情不要拿那些什麼一大堆什麼律師團體去連署的國會改革法案不是一樣嗎上百位什麼學者律師團體連署都是你們的側翼啊不好意思說真的是就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7933.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7942.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
有多少的支持的學者你為什麼沒有邀請沒有去聽他們的意見以上我希望今天的案子還是能夠順利的進入真正的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7952.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7965.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
謝謝主席還有我們在場的委員我乾脆我就來回應一下翁曉玲委員剛你的這一些一番談話其實我剛剛第一次上來發言我說你對你的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7966.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7982.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他也不是完全沒有道理讓他更完備你說有更高的一個門檻大家去及時廣益我是首先去肯認修法方向不是完全沒有道理可是我剛聽你講完以後我就發現你講的又完全沒有道理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7983.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8007.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
為什麼說完全沒有道理?你現在剛剛提到說你這一年你兩年裡面四十幾件那一年變成二十幾件那如果是二十幾件你就已經嫌它非常少了你這個再把它高門檻的話那我告訴你造成當事人更大的一個不利益。稍微林士平委員大法官會議解釋出來到底是要幹什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8009.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8031.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
很簡單啊從過去大法官會議到現在的憲法法庭所做出來的判決第一個一定是去補充到底你這個三級三審裡面你這個法律的正當程序有沒有去嚴守嘛所以我們常常會去講大法官或者是現在的憲法法庭會跟你講說你這個整個法律的正當程序你沒有去遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8033.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8036.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
長長會看到這個第二個你就會看到說哎呦救濟無門啊那怎麼辦怎麼辦普通法院跟跟這個軍事法院做出來的判決會不一樣那大法官會把你整個原判決把你給廢棄掉讓你再重新去做一個更審這大家很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8052.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8072.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
甚至於憲法法庭做出來的判決內容裏面提供當事人一個救濟的管道說好你用我憲法法庭的判決的一個意旨你可以去申請再審就三個嘛所以任何不管是過去的大法官會議解釋或現在的憲法法庭所做出來的判決裏面其實你可以去挑剔他 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8076.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8083.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
可是呢他達到一個叫做救濟人民救濟的一個功能啊我剛為什麼去肯認二委員的一個提案就是說其實你要講說高的一個門檻裡面啊讓他更多元的一個聲音我不能去講你不對啊所以我才跟你講說我可以去肯認你的一個用心但是也不要忘記啊那不是真理啊你說你留學德國 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8105.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8129.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
德國的憲法法庭幾個人?九個欸!九個欸!講錯了!德國是15到16美國、加拿大跟韓國他們明文規定的他們憲法法庭的法官是九個我們在徵修條文裡面我們也放了15個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8131.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8146.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
德國波蘭捷克15到16這個修正我把美國的放到那個地方去但是他們的15到16裡面你要記住喔他們是分庭喔他們也不是一次15到16去做合議喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8148.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8149.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8169.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8179.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
你怎麼警察可以看到酒駕的部分你就給人家抓來抽血所以呢要求做出的憲法判決要求我們立法院去限期修法改正這對不對這當然對嘛我們就把它給改正過來了嘛所以就是剛我提到的所謂的補充正當程序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8187.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8197.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
另外你去看看說道法官在去年做出的一個異國的父母到底可不可以把壽司先務權這些小孩把他帶到國外去道法官說ちょっと待會兒所以他去做出一個暫時的處分這對不對 這當然也對阿他就把你的原財定給廢棄掉提供當事人更好的一個救濟的途徑阿接下來就跟我講的花蓮那一個判決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8214.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8227.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以我要講出來的就是說每一次立法院只要你覺得說憲法法庭或大法官會議做出來不符合立法院的一個這個意思的話你就要修理人家上次你說1999年立法院就去擴權就去自肥國大自己去自肥把國大自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8239.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8264.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
自己延期然後立法委員自己也賺到就變成國大跟立委一起一起大家來自肥那大法官當然把你宣告你違憲啊宣告違憲以後我們就給人家砍說我人我把你廢掉大法官會議我砍你的薪水啊到最後呢到最後呢民意還是會反撲啦但是我是覺得說大家還是講講道理啦涉及到這麼大的一個衝擊的一個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8265.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8292.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
有道理就好好講多聽聽社會的一個意見否則的話我們去看看30跟另外在我們院會裡面30跟43這個雙三分之二這個部分已經近乎二讀了已經近乎二讀了所以我期待這個地方可以啊都多聽聽外界的一個看法謝謝謝謝總委員那下一位我們請謝榮介委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8312.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8324.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
主席 大家好我想修改這個法律啦 阿沒這麼恐怖 也不用這麼緊張啦一個心態 剛才 雖然說要多聽一些民意 是啊我們就是聽到民意後 今天要修改這個法律啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8340.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8356.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
大法官在法律施行的時候有聽民意,他說不免耶,聽什麼民意啊。再來,大家都認為說,要比較嚴謹來看待這個法律的修正。合理?合正?那麼,在憲法的修正的時候,需要有四分之三, |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8367.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8370.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
立法委員出席四分之三的通過這是更加高標準那麼現在修法三分之二的出席三分之二的通過是剛好而已啊而且在過去憲法的解釋裡面也絕大多數都有超過三分之二啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8396.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8403.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
問題來了我們的執政黨用蕭苓之心賭君主之白原來您想法就是要針對新的大火鍋來賠錢怎麼會這樣想呢?您怎麼會這麼不小心剩下的地幣呢?您怎麼會知道它拿出來的這個大火鍋不會通過呢?不然主謀是誰啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8427.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8430.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
如果他拿出來都是臨終其良風．有可能立法院會沒通過．會沒通過就是這的人有問題．所以大家好好來審查．那年對今天 您的表達三分之一哪有什麼困難啊．就過去的案例來看 到時候也有通過超過三分之一啊．為什麼要有這個意識的對抗． |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8457.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8468.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
對於要用什麼其他審查的修法,那時候是要拜什麼會都沒關係啦,我個人或人為可以啦。但是不要用意識之爭,帶來一個修法的改良嘛。尤其不是只有在事務委員會,不是只有在立法院的。現在參事務委員會跳下來,參行政委員會跳下來, |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8482.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8494.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
現在大法官我已經對你很感冒,但是我個人不會因為我對你一個案的不滿意,就來針對同案,來對你一樣的看,我不會這樣做。三分之一你跟我說真的、真的、真的不懂,來我請教你。大法官在那四人的解說,標準是掛油頭不夠肉,這麼厲害。 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8511.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8534.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
哇!私刑是合憲!他現在給我們解說私刑合憲喔!不會給你設定八個關卡!再來,因為要拍攝一個人的性命是非常非常嚴謹!所以必須要歡迎我一對關!八分之八通過耶!不是四分之三,不是三分之二! |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8535.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8560.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
啊如果這樣對憲法的解說要審討嗎?當然要啊!這樣再提出一個三分之一而已,你還不確定?靠差勁咧!啊,嫌疑如人,懷疑大忌!這種事在社會說不過了!你想,你再去問問這裡的大法官,你如果收過三分之一,他會抵禁我們行嗎?沒有啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8561.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8586.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以 大家平衡心內啦 不能對事情沒信心啦 沒信心你們就設定說 哇 提這7個人一定不會過奇怪 我們如果不說不會過 你們看民進黨沒信心 你們就說他們不會過所以 不可依曉玲之心度君主之白 對提案要有信心 心渣大家好好來講 講得清楚 不用怕 這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8591.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8592.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
沈博洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8622.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8644.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
沈博洋第二次發言那剛剛這個翁委員說這個是不是沒有念書啦什麼等等之類的他結果已經跑出去了我覺得你還是先問問你旁邊的剛剛謝龍介委員一直在講三分之二那他是不是搞錯一件事情了三分之二的部分已經進負二讀了今天我們是在討論什麼我們今天是在討論現有總額跟法定總額的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8646.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8663.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
已經一個禁覆二讀的為什麼禁覆二讀也講不清楚結果剛剛洋洋灑灑講了整整三分鐘全部都要講這一個規定就已經被你們禁覆二讀了所以我覺得這其實是一種很不認真做功課的委員然後連我們現在在討論什麼事情都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8664.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8683.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這就跟那個那時候國會濫權法案國會擴權法案一樣復婚期委員一上來講了一個什麼無法結果跟我們今天討論的一個案子一點關係都沒有所以我拜託國民黨委員先做一點功課然後再來討論好不好然後再來第二個我想要講的事情就是剛剛一直在講說我們是不是認為說可能大法官人士會被擋 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8685.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8702.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
他們一直在玩一個話術說今天只有少數的大法官能夠做決定但今天少數大法官能夠做決定的前提是什麼就是因為你不審大法官的人事權你不審大法官人就少人就少當然變比較少人這其實是一個很簡單的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8704.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8723.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
結果這個時候不管是翁委員還是剛剛的謝委員都一直在強調說我們預設請大家只要倒帶回去聽一下就知道剛剛翁委員的發言他從頭到尾預設的就是只剩八位大法官他從頭到尾預設的就是我們這一現在新的被提名的不會通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8724.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8750.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以我還是要再講一次我們民進黨沒有預設立場我們只希望能夠來討論你不喜歡這些人士你可以投下不同意票你實質的不去審人數就變少人數又變少你淨富二獨的門檻用提高然後你再把現在的現有跟法定總額做改變那你到最後就一定會出問題嘛會議就會開不成嘛這就是癱瘓司法院的做法這就是完全不尊重權力分立的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8751.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8770.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
最後我還是要再講一下說什麼少數的人做決定這件事情告訴Marbury跟Madison這個案件當時只有幾個大法官才有五位啊五位大法官就做出了一個經典的這一個司法違憲的一個審查的一個權利的這個判決請問有人質疑他的正當性嗎 沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8771.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8796.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
再更不要講說我們今天在講說大法官到底有沒有民意基礎這件事情這跟國民黨之前在店家講的其實一模一樣什麼事情都一定要講民意基礎那我們今天人民是不是乾脆大家來投票投完票說我們今天從今天開始大家都不要繳電費也不要繳水費為什麼反正因為民意決定一切決定一切完之後專業決定是什麼不是很重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8797.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8813.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
大法官今天存在在這個世界上是因為他的專業的立場而這個專業的立場不容易被抹滅但今天呢國民黨用非常非常簡化的一個方式就把民粹式的語言套在大法官的身上我還是必須要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8814.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8843.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
今天大法官守護人權我們民進黨也守護人權這跟大法官是綠的就沒有什麼關係啊那就是剛好我們兩個都站在守護人權的這一方而已啊如果國民黨今天認為應該要守護人權那大法官也會站在你這一邊啊如果我們認同要權力分立大法官也會站在你這一邊啊如此簡單的事情卻會搞成這個樣子然後又不做功課連到底哪一些法案禁覆二讀都搞不懂我是覺得這個討論可以不用繼續下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8848.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8851.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
謝謝,那我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席我還是要非常懇切的請求既然在野黨的委員也說大法官人事同意權可以審該審要排審那就趕快來進行都不要預設立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8877.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8904.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
如果你們認為有濫餘充數你們認為有不適任或是你們認為是綠有有你們認為哪方面有問題就透過審查在審查的時候立委可以跟大法官我們也可以提出問題直求對決啊有在黨的委員最喜歡找大法官辯論很好啊直求對決就來審查不要害怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8905.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8920.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
如果立委認為你可以很明確的指出哪一個大法官不適任的理由那就上質詢台你現場給他難看沒有關係大家就專業比專業所以憲法訴訟法要審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8923.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8951.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這是一個套餐我說過這是一個套餐如果今天搶修了憲法訴訟法通過了你們的以法定原額來代表取代現有原額再搭配現在禁服二讀要三分之二才可以來決議、評議那麼更合理化你們不行使大法官同意權因為就八個人讓他永遠開不了會憲法法庭就關門了 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8953.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8967.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我委員在這邊您是留德的剛剛我也再一度的去確認相關的訊息德國的大法官16位但他們分兩庭審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8968.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8994.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
一停八位依他們不同的專業分工所以德國也是三分之二出席二分之一就可以決定但是他的基數變成八位比台灣的十五位當中扣除迴避的二分之一遠低於台灣你們說小數觀點單一觀點呢好好去研究你留學的德國制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8995.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9002.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
看看美國制度美國的大法官九位八位九位他們一樣二分之一一決如果就在野黨說的兩三位就決定了這個是何其的偏頗那麼好好去檢視其他民主國家的運行經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9021.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9042.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
退換不言,剛剛羅志強委員不在場我再一次不厭其煩跟您報告跟說明從來並不存在少數兩三位就可以來定憲法解釋生死這種極端案例從來不存在你舉個例子來聽聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9044.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9065.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
你舉個例子哪一個大法官的審議是兩位三位就決定了我再一次不厭其煩的跟你報告新制之後2019憲法訴訟法完成修訂立法之後48個憲法法庭受理的案件有37案是15位大法官全員參與包括討論跟評議 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9069.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9081.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
三十七案四十八案當中有三十七案是十五位另外有十一案不是因為大法官不願意來是因為基於法定他又要迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9082.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9108.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以迴避的11個案子當中有10個案子參與評議的委員大法官還是高於10位的只有一個案子因為有部分迴避的需要唯一only one一個案例有九位大法官參與評議而九位大法官的二分之一也是五位啊這是史上唯一的一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9108.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9110.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
你們說的既然極端案例在哪裡你舉一個案例來聽聽一個就好一個就好就數字說話哪一個案例哪一個判例 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9121.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9133.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
最後還是要懇切的說癱瘓了憲法法庭沒有辦法審議的是98%的人民申請憲法的解釋案這是人民的權利新制之後98% 1336件是人民權利申請憲法解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9147.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9166.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
如果憲法法庭沒了癱瘓了組不成了連受理都沒有辦法大家想看看任何進步性的憲政觀點沒有辦法在台灣民主社會法治社會被實現想想同婚法案就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9168.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9177.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
同婚法案多少年輕世代台灣進步性的思維台灣成為亞洲第一個讓同婚合法的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9178.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9200.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
如果灣委員現在強行把現有原額法定原額然後提高到三分之二通婚法案沒有辦法通過那跟本案無關齁可不可以跟本案無關的話那為什麼今天本案有講廢死嗎本案有講廢死嗎本案有欸你怎麼可以指著我的發言跟本案無關剛剛一堆委員跟來那個你先聽我講一下齁你先聽我講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9210.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9236.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我跟你們講齁我跟你們講如果你三分鐘內你要講什麼我沒有意見那現在已經超過後面還有兩位委員那可不可以不要停好那我們下一位我們下一位請林思敏委員發言那這樣子請主席都不得提啊都不得講啊那請主席是不是都不可以在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9237.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9262.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
是不是主席要才是要公平要合理要公平要合理我只求一個公平只求一個合理時間到了時間已經延長很久我一直讓你們講我讓大家都講那時間延長那麼久我剛剛已經一直提醒然後超過時間了那不要一直談跟本案好那那個我們麻煩林世民我發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9264.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9291.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
時間到了你就再登記下一次再發言請不要故意破壞議事的進行好謝謝主席主席我想我今天綜合我們各位委員的一個發言其實有兩個觀點我也非常贊同包含我們莊惠雄委員或者剛才吳世陽委員都認為說憲法法庭的參與評議的這個大法官應該是要多數要多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9293.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9294.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
三位四位三位四位三位四位三位四位三位四位三位四位 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9314.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9329.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
其實我想就是為什麼我們要修這個法我們就希望說所有的大法官的憲法裁判至少都要十位左右來參與所以過去都是九到十位你剛才講的都是九到十位的大法官來參與評議 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9332.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9353.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以我們現在是把這個法治化今天的修法就是把這個立法漏洞把它修法把它補起來讓我們所有的大對就15席至少有10位來參與所以今天把這個漏洞把它補起來因為過去至少都有9到10位來參與裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9354.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9370.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是萬一哪一天我們講說就是真的只有三到四位來要來這個參與就可以達到我們憲法的一個平易的一個門檻這個是很危險的我想我們大多數的委員應該是贊同的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9371.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9398.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
不希望就是大法官的評議只有少數三位四位大法官的一個意見我想這個是真的我剛才一直提到這對我們民主法制的發展憲政的發展真的是非常的危險最後我要再講一下對於人事的審查我想我們一直強調對於大法官人事的審查考試委員人事的審查NCC委員的審查我們從來沒有反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9399.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9421.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
但是大法官人事為什麼拖到現在沒有辦法審查就是因為你們提出對我們的立法院職權刑事法你們對於這個人事審查的權利的這個法案你們提出大法官的解釋要到25號才整個解釋才會出來所以到底這個人事的審查是要適用舊法還是用修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9422.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9439.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為新法被你凍結了啊所以才會遲遲沒有辦法去做審查所以這個源頭始作俑者是誰啊這一黨完全願意審查大法官的人事案只是到底要是用舊法還是新法因為新法被凍結了嘛才會產生這種情況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9443.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9453.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以你們要口口聲聲一直說我們拒絕審查大法官的人士本黨從來就沒有這樣子來做那另外就是今天的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9454.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9470.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及法律部委員會及 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9485.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9486.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
中加兵委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9516.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9538.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
主席謝謝吼其實呢本席剛剛在第二輪的時候呢就剛剛前一次發言的時候啊跟主席的探討即是程序也是詢問因為我們司法法制委員會啊只要出現這種情況就是大黨邊副總召在場的時候呢就開始意識的說可能就會停止討論了可能就是要直接表決要 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9539.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9557.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
送出委員會了我們希望司法法制委員會就憲法訴訟法他是一個重要的法案那麼既然剛剛討論有人提出說在進行審查之前我們來召開公聽會主席表示說不反對如果輪到我排案我來排公聽會他也接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9558.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9581.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
甚至於說我們排行來審查的時候我們邀請那個周冠萊周秘書長到我們委員會來做說明說明到底憲法機關立法院的總額他是怎麼去計算的那跟司法院大法官憲法法庭他的現有總額或者法定總額是怎麼來的這可以好好探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9581.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9582.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9607.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9629.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
本席是準備好很多啦,準備好17頁,這是詢答的時間,待會我們在這個程序發言,如果都已經處理完畢了,那麼既然大家都準備來了,那大家做詢答,我想這也是讓大家社會知道各界 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9630.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9647.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
不同的意見對於憲法訴訟法到底有什麼看法其實剛剛我們在很多程序發言當中已經有略略的都討論到了但是因為主席限定只有三分鐘我也不再想超過所以我準備的資料就沒有進入了這些內容來互相探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9648.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9670.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我還是很誠懇的希望不只在場的召委主席也希望國民黨的總召大黨編副總召能夠明確的來保障我們在委員會裡面有充分的意見交換待會我們不管程序發言也好還是其他的對於內容我們的意見交換也好我們都能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9672.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9689.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
本委員會能夠在下週未來持續的進行直到有完成公聽會為止。主席請問可以接受這樣的一個請求嗎?或者我們的副總召可以答應這樣的一個請求嗎?因為現在你們人數啊顯然多數嘛,你們在這裏表決又是停止討論,就是要繼續。 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9699.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9720.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你剛的問題是這樣嘛你說我也不反對但是我的意思是說你要怎麼排你的議程我都沒有意見以前啊你們就是出委員會我想排也沒得排啊依照我們議法院的內規只要這個法案出委員會其他的召委想排都不能排也不能排公聽會也不能排其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9723.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9747.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我跟你講齁我我不是因為你剛講那樣我其實聽了我不是很認同啦你聽了我都不認同你希望今天就出委員會除非我口齒不清不然我剛講的很清楚就是你排什麼議你今天要出委員會副總裁下令你今天要出委員會跟那個立法院執行司法一樣你現在就是要副總裁下令今天你照國立法院執行司法今天要出委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9749.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9768.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
不是我跟你講你上次說什麼我受誰指示然後今天又說副總召來一邊指揮我跟你講講那就沒意思了我在這邊再跟中召委報告一次再跟中召委報告一次中召委你是前輩我再跟你報告一次我不受任何人的指揮很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9768.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9796.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我跟你一樣你也不受任何人指揮嘛我們都一樣啊還是你要在這邊告訴我你都在進行指揮我們都不受任何人的指揮我們就在這邊把立法院的工作做好就這樣而已嘛啊不要每次都扣帽子扣我的帽子所以你今天不會受副總統的要求今天出委員會他根本沒有跟我講什麼啊我講這個莫名其妙他現在打電話在你手機留言了我的手機沒有任何來電啦你不要在那邊亂亂製作戰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9799.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9814.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我的手機沒有任何人的來電 你不要認知作戰 這樣不太好啦不管啦 省委員你講你的認知作戰不要講那些啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9818.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9830.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我跟你講齁又來了不要今天我們是司法法制委員會不要在那邊扯什麼國家什麼有的沒有不要再扯我們可不可以把今天議程走完 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9835.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9857.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
中委員我已經回答完畢了我們就做我們個人該做的事那你也不要在那邊亂扯說什麼要打電話來跟我指示沒有那個事啦中召委那個發言的時間到了嘛沒有意見那請問那我們就依據先前宣告的我們就先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10721.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10749.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們現在接續議程的進行那我們現在有收到委員羅志強等人提停止程序發言請問在場的委員有沒有異議?不是,我不懂有委員提案的話那我可以不處理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10756.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10778.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
五委員你懂不懂議事規則如果今天有委員提案的話那主席要不要處理我想我應該沒有做錯吧這跟聽誰有什麼意見如果是爛招也是跟民進黨學的啦好啦那我們現在進行那個表決好了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10784.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10785.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好,那 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10822.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10833.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我們就先進行表決因為剛剛已經說明說已經有異議了那我們表決前我們先清點在場人數麻煩議事人員先清點 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10839.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10843.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
反對不討論就強行表決反對不討論就強行表決反對不討論又要往前推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10868.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10883.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
國會濫權的濫交又來了!國會濫權的濫交又來了!又強行演壓了!主席裁定!歷史記錄嗎?你是要強行演壓學法律的人要貪換憲法法庭!那依立法院各委員會組織法第十條規定可否同訴時取決於主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10898.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10898.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
主席會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10916.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10933.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
是不是 會議詢問 我可以問你程序進行到什麼時候 這本來就是會議進行當中很正當的一件事情嘛 我要告訴你就是剛剛那個提案 那個表決的內容根本就無效 對有效一半而已啊 你要對有效一半而已啊 會議詢問為什麼我不能詢問呢 我要問你 你待會要進行什麼 待會我就不能問了 這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10944.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10947.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10976.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10976.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
議員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
11003.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
11014.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
不然這樣好了啦齁那如果說那個專委員如果說我們要你認為剛剛的程序有問題那沒關係齁那沒關係齁那這樣我跟各位報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
11015.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
11035.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們跟各位報告一下依據立法院議事規則第32條第1項其實有提到會議詢問也可以由主席因為決定的宣告那如果這樣的話那這個部分我就宣告現在都先停止會議詢問好不好那我們就依據議事規則第32條第1項的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
11043.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
11059.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那如果對於主席的宣告有意義也是可以繼續表決啦我對您的宣告有詢問好嗎我對您的宣告先不用表決我有詢問先回答我的詢問主席我對您的宣告有詢問不要這樣上個會期國會擴權強行碾壓不給討論現在要再來一次嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
11065.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
11084.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
請回答我的,那我有會議詢問,可以讓我詢問嗎?那請問一下你詢問之前你有沒有先看過議事規則三四條?我知道我的權利,是你要嚴格我的權利我們從早上到現在一開始的會議詢問跟程序問題一直在請教主席排審憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
11086.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
11088.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們看到民間有這麼多的民團、法律專業界要求開公聽會,要求...您先回答我,那您有沒有要開公聽會?您有沒有要開公聽會?您認為這麼重要的法案要開公聽會? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
11103.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
11107.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
您沒有回答我的問題那一開始到現在大家討論了兩個半小時請您回答這個問題主席這個議案您有沒有要排公聽會就回答這個問題有沒有要回應社會要求這麼多民團司法改革界希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
11122.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
11129.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
先停審然後需要有公聽的程序主席我們講了兩個半小時如果你講一句話會你要排你連yes or no都沒有講你連yes or no都沒有回答那你可不可以回答這件事情不要揮議事規則說yes or no要不要開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
11144.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
11150.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
任何的議案進入審查前,召開公聽會也是議事規則所授權所賦予的權利可是主席你不回答這個問題啊我非常禮貌的請教你有沒有要開公聽會呢有沒有要回答公聽會我現在回答你的問題請不要這樣子齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
11163.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
11181.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
現在我剛剛做出來的宣告是依據議事規則第32條第一項那當然各位可以對於我提出議事規則第32條第一項的停止會議的討論而會議的詢問你可以就這個部分去發表意見啊而不是又去扯回今天會議的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
11182.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
11187.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以主席如果您有回答簡單的ABC要不要開公聽會就清楚了就是一個回答要不要開公聽會您認為這個依然需不需要公聽會yes or no就這樣你為什麼拒絕回答為什麼害怕詢問你還沒有得到指示嗎你還沒有得到指示嗎這個問題為什麼不回答呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
11207.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
11218.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
要不要開公聽會這麼簡單?請問一下對於主席剛剛的宣誓有沒有意見?任何條文任何法案召開公聽會也是議事規則所賦予效權的。那我們現在就停止會議詢問。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
11236.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
11241.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
主席引用錯誤條文喔 議事委員你給主席錯誤的資訊嗎請翻到我們立法委員手冊第137頁第32條 立法院的議事規則第32條 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
11259.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11266.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
預備會議時出席委員提出權益問題、秩序問題、會議詢問或其他程序之動議時,主席應為決定之宣告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11267.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11270.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
愿會時．出席委員提出權宜問題．秩序問題．會議循環其他程序之動議時．應以書面提出．由主席竟為決定之宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11298.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11308.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
立法委員各委員會組織法第21條其實是準用啦好那我們就先這樣因為條文的部分我現在都講了那也都有錄影那如果大家不懂的話回去再研究一下好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11311.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11313.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
是你講錯 說別人不懂 被糾正了被糾正了 不要這樣幹小東西去大家給你 要引用正確的條文你自己引用錯誤你引用錯誤沒問題 那沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11330.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11351.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
再重新講一次,您現在引用的是哪一條?沒關係齁,32條,32條第二項,我剛剛講錯了,跟各位更正所以你講錯了嘛,沒有錯嘛,我們公眾有理嘛我們的委員會是可以準用的,好,那就到此為止,大家不用再就這個部分去爭執結論就是我們剛剛做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11354.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11363.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那有沒有要公聽會啊這問題?好,你可以停止討論,那可以回答這個問題嗎?有沒有要公聽會啊?有沒有公聽會這個問題不敢回答嗎?交開公聽會也是審查任何法案的一個應當進行有委員請求就要進行啊為什麼不回答呢?為什麼不回答呢?為什麼不回答要不要開公聽會? |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11381.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11398.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這麼簡單yes or no主席沒有支持我主席如果支持我那主席請回答我請主席回答我要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢要不要公聽會呢羅志強你反對公聽會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11403.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11405.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
請不要按麥克風,我們先讓翁委員做提案說明,謝謝各位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11432.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11456.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們現在先安靜我們先請翁曉玲委員做提案說明主席各位委員政府官員們還有在場和線上關心憲法訴訟法修正的先生女士還有媒體記者們大家好那接下來呢就由我來說明我與林思敏委員所共同提案的憲法訴訟法的修正內容和理由以供大家了解我們知道我們中華民國憲法徵修條文明定大法官15人 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11457.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11486.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那目的就是為了要確保憲法法庭在審理重大的事件案件的時候能夠涵蓋多元意見充分考量各種不同的法律見解避免單一或少數觀點會主導裁判導致可能做成偏頗的裁判而影響到憲法裁判的公信力和公正性然而我國憲法訴訟法並沒有像其他外國的法律規定一樣有明定而最低的法定出席人數和做成同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11487.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11497.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）立法院第九十五條條條文修正草案� |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11508.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11515.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
司法委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人� |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11526.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11547.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因此這一次的修法基本上是希望能夠健全我們憲法法庭的制度特別是我們接下來可能即將有出現有大法官有出缺的狀況只剩下8位大法官我們有15位大法官7位大法官卸任只剩下8位大法官在任 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11548.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11551.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那麼如果這個中間又出現有提前辭任死亡或者是這個因為沒有辦法這個通過補足那個大法官的名額將出現可能會有極少數的兩三位或三四位大法官就可能會做成宣告法律違憲的憲法裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11568.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11594.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那麼在這樣的一個情況之下極有可能會由少數的大法官就會操控法律違憲宣告於會由極少數大法官就可以去操控法律違憲與否的情形這個是與我們憲法徵修條文明天要有15位大法官來參與審議的這個制度是相違背的那麼我在這裡我要再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11596.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11604.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
憲法法庭於審理和決議的過程當中必須要足夠多數大法官人數出席以及達到多數門檻的同意那麼才能夠實踐更高程度的憲法裁判的嚴謹性要求那麼這次的本條 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11611.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11635.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個條文的修正絕對不會像司法院報告中所說的會癱瘓釋憲制度會損害人民的救濟權利相反的這次的修正案的是在健全釋憲制度反對少數大法官專斷裁判維護憲政秩序捍衛人民的申請釋憲權利那麼同時我也認為司法院的擔心根本是多餘的話錯重點了超錯心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11635.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11657.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
你們應該煩惱的是賴總統坑狠地會濫用大法官的提名權而提出了一群不適格不適任的大法官候選人使得立法院難以接受並且同意這份名單這才是造成憲法法庭癱瘓的最主要的原因我想我一再重申寧缺勿濫是立法院審查重要人事案的基本原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11658.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11682.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
本期也相信只要是被庭人的資格是適任的是適合的而不是酬庸不是打手那立法院會有什麼理由不同意那麼最後呢我把期要再講我因為還有修正另外一條是95條本條本法修正條文施行日期是自公佈日期即刻實施那麼這條的立法目的無他其實就是防小人防無賴的條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11685.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11713.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
本席希望司法院不要有樣學樣學著模仿行政院不立即去施行立法院所通過的NCC組織法條文竟耍些玩弄法律的小人作風所以這個條文的制定基本上就是防小人條款最後我也懇請在座的各位委員能夠支持本席與林世民委員共同所提的憲法訴訟法第四條和第十五條修正案謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11715.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11727.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們現在進行機關代表的報告我們請司法院的黃副秘書長報告,發言的時間是3分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11743.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11765.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
主席各位委員好那今天司法院奉邀列席各位委員會就翁曉玲委員等人提出的憲法訴訟法第四條修正草案還有第九十五條這個修正草案我們列席報告那詳細如書面剛才經過程序的詢問之後很多的委員大概都對了解我們的書面報告那司法院就 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11767.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11768.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
司法及法制委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11790.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11815.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
大法官如果說萬一像大家所擔心的沒有辦法順利產生的時候那麼這一次的這個修法這一次的修法那個草案要把那個所謂的現有總額定定成是憲法訴訟法第五條的這個法定總額的話那麼將來運作上面就會產生自愛難行的地方所以才請委員要多加斟酌因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11817.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11836.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
目前的法制成為剛才很多委員講到包含我們憲法訴訟法的其他這個條文甚至立法院職員刑事法的相關的條文在開會所謂的現有總額所指的都不會是指法定組織上面的這個法定原額這個不是只有憲法訴訟法是這樣其他的這個法制也相同更何況 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11840.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11848.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
大法官的解釋現有總和的含義不是憲法訴訟法訂定以後才這樣早在大法官會議解釋的時候就是這樣歷來的解釋都是如此所以這個時候去變動現有總和的含義跟相關的法制的一致性我們是認為說有斟酌的餘地另外剛才委員有提到說那麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11870.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11879.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這一個目前申請事項98%以上都是人民申請的這個事項只有極少數是機關的這個衝突如果說因此導致憲法法庭沒有辦法運作的時候那麼會對人民的這個權利有相當的這個影響剛才已經有跟各位委員報告那委員有垂詢說那現在的憲法法庭包括以前的大法官解釋駁回的比例高達相當的高可是我要跟各位委員補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11902.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11912.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個駁回率不管多高都是經過大法官審查之後的跟說沒有辦法運作連審查機會都沒有這恐怕是不太一樣的而且現在跟各位報告目前雖然說有很大部分是審查沒有過但是目前依照我們憲法法庭的公告已經有138件是審查通過而且是受理的審查通過受理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11930.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11930.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11946.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11973.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
憲法法庭是人民權利的這個最後的基本權的最後保障維護它能夠順利去行使我相信不只是司法院也是國人大家共同這個期待所以這一次的這些修法我們還是請各位委員能夠三思當然附帶了這個九十五條的這些修正我們司法院也是認為說跟第四條一樣我們也是請各位委員在家斟酌以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11978.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11993.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
提案說明跟機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始詢答,詢答時間本會委員是8分鐘非本會委員4分鐘都不再延長上午的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11999.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
12024.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
先8分鐘我們試情況因為今天的人非常的多不然這樣啦齁我們這樣各退一步8加1好不好8加1就好我跟你講不然就是8分鐘因為今天人比較多齁那我想我這邊退一步啦8加1啦齁那就改為8加1齁那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
12031.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
12051.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
上午的會議我們進行到12點半那下午我們提前到1點半開始開會因為下午還有一個協商在那我們現在先請登記第一位的中嘉賓委員發言要讓你好好的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
12058.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
12064.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那我們現在就是截止發言登記那個主席想請教黃副秘書長麻煩副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
12081.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
12103.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
委員好黃沐敏您好我的標題是攤販憲法法庭人民救濟無門那麼總而認定雙標40日不顧名大概前面這一段你剛剛也講了請問一下申請四限案以機關立法委員法院跟人民這四者都可以提出目前為止你所知道誰的比例最高跟委員報告目前申請這些四限 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
12104.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
12110.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
百分之九十八以上都是人身申請絕大部分涉及到人民的這個基本權利其實呢外界可能有個誤解啊以為這次呢藍白合作要來針對司法院針對憲法訴訟法來下手是因為對大法官不滿對憲法法庭去凍結他們上個會期的國會擴散有所不滿以為說憲法法庭好像專門在跟立法院的國會的多數作對其實不然我們看到這個統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
12133.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
12161.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
憲法法庭受理的案者,絕大部分是人民。不管是舊制時期還是新制時期,94到98都是以人民申請最高。所以我看到昨天的報紙就說目前藍委提高釋憲判決的門檻,遇到大法官的提名任命懸而未決,至人數不足而那這時候呢,低於10人的時候就無法評議無法裁判。不能執行釋憲的職責的嚴重走過,就是讓人民尋求救救全球上道了,是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
12161.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
12188.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
好 那我請教一下那如果憲法法庭竟然要保障人民的權利那有沒有保障我們基層公務員你認為有沒有當然也包含基層公務員包含基層公務員好 我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利去年憲判第15號保障公務員勤領慰問金所以如果台灣憲法法庭不只會阻礙人民救濟也侵害了公務員的權益你是不是認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
12189.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
12197.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
大法官解釋憲法程序的嚴格,民國三十七年是司法院大法官會議規則,四十七年開始有了大法官會議法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
12211.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
12237.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
到了82年大法官審理案件法這當中到82年之前這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統國民黨或有國會絕對都是有通過的所以你認為這樣的一個程序有變成是一黨一派之私嗎還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
12239.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
12267.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
你覺得他是一黨一派決定的還是有體現了大法官視線的尊重他的獨立視線的權責是前者還後者跟委員報告我想擔任大法官的他不應該我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統國民黨控制的國會通過的你覺得他是一黨一派嗎還是他覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神我想大法官擔任以後不會去考慮黨派啦應該是你還是誤會我的意思這些法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
12269.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
12285.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
難道是有一黨一派的決定讓大法官要聽國民黨的嗎?不會吧?不會,很好。我們來看一下馬英九時期呢,到了他的104年之後,全部的大法官都是他任命的。到了107年蔡英文前總統的時候才有憲法訴訟的制定,我們來看一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
12286.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
12304.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個問題到底是現有總和法定總和由來已久在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候第13條那時候寫大法官總和過半數民國八十一年審查的時候請問一下那時候秘書長是不是叫王嘉穎那時候的王新邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的不知道那時候都是國民黨的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
12310.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12329.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好這裡呢從總額過半變成現有總額過半我們看下一頁怎麼來的當時的討論呢是國民黨的委員王新邦問王嘉儀秘書長他說欸你們這個總額怎麼算的他說是以現有人數計算和以前的立法院一樣那時候總額是17位假如總統通過13名17位就會發生問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12332.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12347.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以王新邦就說那會不會因為總額兩個字有歧義到底是什麼總額產生困難王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思啊所以國民黨委員說那邊修改明確一下比較好他說那如果你修改成現有人數我也不反對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12348.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12372.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以最後結果是什麼?最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候呢那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員民進黨只有一位陳委員主席經過協商之後把大法官總額加上現有兩個字沒有意義沒有哪黨哪派去打他去影響他所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額你老姊同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12375.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12394.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以我們來看一下當我們憲法有沒有除了大法官之外對於總和的討論有的就是對於立法委員我修過憲憲法本文當中有講到立法委員的額數的只有三個條文57條-1的時候要出席委員三分之以上提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12396.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12414.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
立法委員在臨時會的69條跟修憲的時候174條都是寫立法委員前條寫初期立法委員的幾分之幾後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算初期立法委員很清楚立法委員是以多少額數來算 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12417.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12434.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
時間到後來憲法徵修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義就寫全體立法委員那時候全體立法委員在徵修條文裡面有幾個權力罷免總統對行政院的法律案復議對行政院提出不信任案變更領土彈劾都是要全體立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12434.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12438.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12455.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12481.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
但是呢我們立法委員執行司法為了定義什麼要全體立法委員在88年的時候國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條總額三分之一以上指的開會而總額是什麼規定呢以每會期的實際報導人數扣掉辭職去職跟頑固很清楚立法院自己在對自己的全體立法院的解釋總額怎麼定他自己的執行司法寫得清清楚明明白白你也認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12483.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12510.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
不只認同你們的後來的規則呢都放進去了我們看下一頁你們現在呢這個國民黨立法委員呢現在修什麼修立法委員總額就不修你們第四條是修什麼修司法院大法官是現有總額你們的現有總額是指大法官的人數那請問一下請問一下目前憲法訴訟法當中有沒有提到立法委員的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12520.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12539.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對但是呢有額數的限制所以我們看一下齁當時你們的法庭審理規則第56條全盤照抄就是把立法院的職員刑事法裡面的規定是以立法院限額總額扣掉辭職去職員死亡而且以每會期的實際暴露人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12540.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12563.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
憲法訴訟條文現在立法院的總額是多少?是不是113人?結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候沒有用113人的算喔?是用現有的來算喔?但是大法官要事先要決定人民的權益的時候呢卻要用憲法的規定來算雙標啦我們來看一下下一頁給大家看一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12565.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12578.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
司法院大法官會議審議法第五條過去是怎樣?立法委員縣有總額三分之一就可以提出申請是不是這樣?這是過去的規定嘛是不是?而且你們的私信記者還寫什麼?每會期實際報導人數為準 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12582.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12602.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
在第九屆立法院的時候國民黨的人數未達三分之一啊所以當時國民黨提出釋憲還要找五黨籍的高精素美委員才能提出釋憲申請你有印象嗎有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高精委員湊足的三分之一請求釋憲有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12605.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12619.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出四憲案那時候本席就提出了什麼提出了說把憲法總和從三分之一降到了四分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12620.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12642.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私就要看不應當時他是多數黨還是少數黨來決定要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定能夠彰顯出主權在民民主政治的精神而定所以我們看一下當時本席要提出上一章 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12643.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12646.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
司法院自己的規則完全follow 立法院自己職權心事的規定,他就跟著規定,你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院? |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12665.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12680.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
司法院有沒有尊重立法院應該是有因為憲法總委的解釋一向如此一向如此所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定你們的規則就照抄這就是憲法機關相互尊重尊重各自獨立的權限的一個精神的體現下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12682.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12697.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以我們來看一下我們看到了施行日期為什麼要緩衝在107年大法官案件審理法的時候第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的申請所以必須要公佈三年後施行是不是這樣的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12698.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12715.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
實行這期是影響了人民所以當時當年呢就是三年後後來116年修改修改之後呢是怎樣司法院以命令定之為什麼那時候後來修改後不是三年再次修改把門檻從三分之一降成四分之一後要司法院來命令定之請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12717.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12737.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因為憲法訴訟法通過之後因為還有相關的這些審理細則這些執法規定要去定那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的所以才這個實施的日期由司法院定之好所以我們看看翁委員的提案要求公佈後就實施法律的事情點向一頁法律的事情點往上 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12738.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12758.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
有哪些道交條例怎麼樣因為執行複雜由行政機關指定各部位組織法要配合主改的時程人民團體法配合民法大修施行日期貼合民法所有法律的施行日期都有各別不同的考量沒有全部都是公告之律實施的我們再下來再一點點就好了我們快加速所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12759.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12774.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
本席要在這裡主席也站起來了吼目前來為所提的憲法訴訟第九十五條的修正草案至公佈入實施啊這個其實呢會造成很多對人民的衝擊不顧及民眾準備充足的時間來申請的權益你覺得有沒有這個顧慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12776.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12796.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
委員報告因為現在已經公告受理的我們也擔心說立刻實施的時候那麼這已經公告受理的案件也沒有辦法進入最後對不起主席最後就是關於迴避的問題雖然這個迴避剛剛我們羅志祥委員提到了他說如果迴避的話你舉那個例子我仔細去講15個人6個人因為成台大任教只剩9個人參與懲判 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12797.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12826.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定所以呢你們提出了第30條跟43條目前這兩條是近乎二讀嘛主席是不是這樣子是近乎二讀嘛好那如果你把總額改成法定總額就不會發生因迴避人數過多而有少數到法院決定嗎我們來看一下最後一頁了最後一頁了法定總額你把憲法總額改成法定總額不只雙標你沒有看看自己的我們的憲法訴訟法裡面的49條立法委員提出事先申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12826.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12845.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不要四分之一四分之一是什麼現有人數欸你大法官就要有法定總額遇到自己的立法委員要提出事先申請四分之一自己現有人數來算而且呢憲法訴訟第十一條要申請迴避怎樣要其他大法官過半數啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12847.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12868.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
其他大法官是多少?請問你知道這個額數嗎?如果修法之後其他大法官是多少額數?因為知道其他大法官多少人我才能確定過半數嗎?如果要用法定額數的話第12條依本碼迴避這大法官不記錄現有總額現有總額不記錄由其他大法官的現有大法官過半數來同意就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12869.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12894.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
但是如果改成法定總額呢?憲法訴訟法第12條也在翁委員第四條的修正範圍內。法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦!既然叫法定,什麼法?憲法!憲法訴訟條文幾席?15席!15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎?不行!所以我這裡做個結論齁! |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12896.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12896.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
議員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12916.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12917.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12946.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12947.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
謝謝主席,我們請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12952.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12961.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
法定修憲門檻立法院全體立法委員四分之一提案、四分之三出席及出席委員四分之三決議。同樣道理,大法官現有總額,定義為憲法徵修條文第五條所規定的15位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12980.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
13005.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以我們為了避免削弱裁判的多元性、公正性、專業性和公信力所以我們對現在的現有的憲法訴訟法他漏未規定說大法官現有總額的定義所以僅規定剛剛鍾嘉斌委員講的憲法訴訟法第十二條所謂的迴避的大法官他有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
13005.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
13016.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
13026.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
13056.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以這種情況之下我們就是現在要預作法律的修補把這個漏洞補起來啊如果萬一真的發生這種狀況我們是不是要讓我們的憲法法庭的組成必須達到一定多元的一個人數讓這個裁判做出來的裁判才更具多元性才更能夠實踐我們的這個實質的一個爭議才不會由三四個人的幾個狹隘的觀點來對我們的憲法做出裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
13057.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
13070.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
民主黨你贊同嗎?就是說我們為了避免少數的不具多元的狹隘的觀點做出我們的憲法的裁判來做這種修法您贊成嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
13071.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
13096.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
跟委員報告我先大方想問你你不用跟我講說什麼因為什麼政治計算怎麼樣以往其實也並沒有這種情形說少數的這個大法官就可以去決定一個重要的這個國家價值大概目前以前沒有今天假設說委員們認為說應該要達到一定的這種這種大法官的人數才能夠那其實討論的過程是不是要去變動變動說 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
13098.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
13103.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
13123.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
13150.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
但是就是沒有或者沒有啦沒有也可以但是我們就擔心會有這種情況發生我剛才一直講有這種情況發生的疑慮啊所以我們把這個洞漏洞把他立法漏洞把他修補起來讓他很明確的法制化就未來憲法法庭的組成一定要有15位法定15位的三分之二來出席才能夠做成他的憲法裁判這個方向您贊成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
13152.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
13179.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
用多數的意見來做成憲法的裁判您贊成嗎?跟委員報告多數意見的做成裁判本身跟說要定法定總現有總和變成這個法定總和我們司法院是認為這中間沒有當然的這個必然關係而且定成這個現有總和是法定總和的話有剛才跟各位委員報告會產生一些自然難行的情形而且現在吸取的案件受理的案件怎麼會沒有必然的關係呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
13181.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
13196.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
就我剛已經跟你提到萬一如果有這種情況發生就極有可能發生就是總統提名的大法官因為他不具他的專業性然後他不夠中立然後他這個代乎這個民意完全輕忽民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
13197.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
13224.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
有這種情況會發生所以他的被提名人沒有經過立法院來審查通過會有這種情況發生嗎?怎麼會沒有必然關聯性呢?所以我們要把這種萬一的情況要把他設想進去今天趕快來這個立法來補這個漏洞讓他符合您剛才講的過去我們所有的憲法裁判都是必須要達到大概10位左右的大法官來做成他的一個裁判或者解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
13225.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
13236.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以怎麼會沒有必然性呢?我聽不懂您講的。委員報告就是說不見得要用修法定總額的現有總額這種定義的方式。那好,那我問你這種漏洞萬一這個出現這種情況,怎麼樣補這個漏洞? |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
13243.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
13269.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
外遇出現的話跟委員報告那當然很多的國家很多的國家會有現任的大法官假設後任的續任的大法官沒有順利產生或者有缺位的情形的話現任的大法官可以繼續到到那個新任的大法官任期就任為止那這個這種這種制度但是依照我們現行的我們的法律就沒有這樣的一個規定嗎所以我才會講說如果我們用這種方式來修法的話實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
13271.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
13282.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
就能夠達到我們符合我們真的實踐我們大法官憲法法庭的組成他一定要有多數的一個多元的一個觀點我們才能夠達到這個立法的目的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
13283.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
13306.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
當然你可以用其他方式,你剛才講的也是一種方式啦,我贊成啦。但是以目前這種情況的話,我們還是必須修法及時來補這個漏洞。我們不要有政治的算計,你剛才一直講會有自愛難行,我實在聽不懂。我請問一下,我們這個總統為什麼我們憲法要設計我們的大法官被提名的人要經過立法院的同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
13308.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
13335.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
當然大法官一定是所有的立法委員代表民意的這些大家可以認同的人,然後他才適合當然...所以我剛一直講大法官一定要學術專精嘛一定要超然獨立嘛一定要重視民意嘛一定要操守非常的好嘛如果總統提名的被提名人我們審視的結果、審查的結果他完全不符合這些要件我們還要讓他通過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
13337.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
13351.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
在我們愧對民意欸所以我在講嘛既然會有這種情況可能發生嘛所以我們要及時補這個漏洞啊所以司法院你一直認為我們其實審查同意的時候因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
13356.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
13383.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
就是因為我們執政黨跟在野對於這個現在被提名的我們有我們的初步的一個看法跟意見但未來審查會不會通過當然還不一定但是至少我們現在看起來我們有很多在這個之前就發表一些看法所以這時候是不是總統如果假設出現這種情況我最後問你那總統要怎麼做假設被提名人被那個立法院否決之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
13385.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
13405.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
總統要怎麼做?所以總統是不是要盡速再把這個提名一批新的大法官進到我們立法院來審查嗎?這就是這樣運作嘛跟我們現在這個修憲法訴訟法把我們的立法漏洞補起來這完全沒有漢格啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
13406.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
13432.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以我不曉得這個司法委員你為什麼一直強調說會自愛難行呢?那就儘速請總統提名一批新的大法官,適才適任的大法官進來嘛我想這才是我們立法委員應該做到立法院監督制衡的一個責任所有的這些沒有這個學術專才的也可以當大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
13434.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
13456.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我想秘書長、副秘書長你一定也反對大多數我們學法律的人我們所有的法律學者也好法律專家也好或者法律人一定反對這種沒有學術專精的人也可以當大法官那對基層的這些法官或者檢察官是多麼的諷刺啊大家這麼認真這麼努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
13458.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
13466.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
對我們的法律做出貢獻但是一個完全對法律可以說非常外行的人他可以當大法官我們可以讓他通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
13468.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
13496.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我想絕對不行,你一定贊成這個觀點所以我們還是希望說如果假設萬一這些被提名的人沒有被通過的話請總統他應該儘速提名新的人進來讓我們的憲政運作就不會有所謂自愛難行之處有什麼這個會影響我們司法院大法官的憲法訴訟他對案件進行審理的這樣的一個情形存在這才是正軌啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
13498.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13500.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
以上,謝謝我們下一位請審法會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13518.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13542.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
欸林委員李世民委員我一句話啦齁在你走之前啦齁你剛剛講的很有道理啦齁但是你就說如果總統你說現在最重要的是什麼請總統提名一批新的大法官嘛假設沒有過嘛對啊所以要趕快審查啊所以要趕快人事同意權審查你現在人事同意權不審查然後說總統要提名一批新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13544.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13566.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
對,要審。趕快審查。審查完之後,好,你忙。好,你去忙,你去忙。我跟你講這句話而已。我跟你講這句話而已。就是,所有剛講的這些前提,就是趕快審查這個大法官的人事同意權,才知道他們在這邊含血所噴的這些說這些都不適任,到底是真的不適任還假的不適任,讓立法院來審查嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13567.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13594.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
不是你在這裡含著血噴他的臉就說人家不適任嘛對不對這個一定是法律一定是要立法院審查的嘛所以請國民黨趕快安排人事同意權的審查然後人事同意權審查完畢之後如果七個人通通通過也許那可能就這個法一點一點急迫性都沒有啊所以我們說不要本末倒置先審查人事同意權再來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13596.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13623.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
再來審查這個憲法訴訟法這是我個人那現在主席我們請這個副秘書長麻煩副秘書長我很好副秘書長這個剛剛我們還是要回歸就是看他們今天修這個法他們總是我很仔細的因為我本來搞不懂我想說到底他們賣這個狗肉到底是掛什麼樣的羊頭所以我就趕快仔細看他們的立法理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13624.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13641.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那剛剛這個立法理由結果講半天跟這個立法理由都沒有關係他們講的都很簡單就是說如果人事同意權沒有通過我們不讓人事同意權通過之後我們的人數就不夠了就會變成三四個人來決定所以他們的這些修法的急迫性的前提就是說人事同意權不通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13644.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13670.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以他們本來掛著羊頭其實現在把狗頭就掛上去了直接說因為我們不會通過你們的同意權所以我們現在要賣這個狗肉就是要癱瘓你的憲法法庭的運作他們在立法裡面講說啊這個我們大法官設15人立法目的就是什麼什麼什麼我再請問副理事長我們大法官會議人數在我們憲法裡面一開始就是15人嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13672.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13674.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
中華民國憲法第七章司法第七十九條司法院設大法官若干人沒有規定多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13701.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13729.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們的憲法本文這個國民黨每天抱著我們中華民國憲法本文才說我們的國土是秋海塘業的這個憲法本文並沒有規定大法官會議人數是15人阿他規定是若干人所以那時候設立這個憲法他就是要讓少數人來決定來做解釋嗎三四個就可以解釋嗎不是若干人但是後來我們修憲經過幾次修憲大法官會的這個制度一直改變所以那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13731.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13742.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我這邊我所整理的是一直到第四次修憲那時候有因為同意權原本是監察院同意後來修改成國民大會同意這些其他都沒有變還是若干人 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13743.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13760.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
一直到第四次修憲他才修憲說把若干人改成15人這個是在民國86年1997年的第四次修憲才確定了大法官會議15人這個所謂現在我們在講的法定總額對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13762.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13791.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那時候修正15人的目的是什麼其實是因為大法官的任期制同時建立因為以前大法官沒有任期的啊以前大法官提名以後他就一直做做做到死終生值啊那時候終生值還沒有改但是要改任期所以那時候改為了任期制所以他必須固定的名額那時候才有所謂法定總的15人對不對然後接下來到了第六次修憲也就是民國89年的第六次修憲才把終生值拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13792.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13819.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以這個大法官這個會議這個制度是有是有變化還有變動的並不是並不是國民黨所講說一開始啊就是我們法定總的15人他的目的就是什麼什麼什麼這跟當初的立法目的都不一樣今天我們如果修了這個憲法訴訟法的第四條齁其實我們還是在這裡好好的整理剛剛吵架歸吵架我們還是要好好的再整理現在目前如果第四條做了修改牽涉到整個憲法訴訟法裡面有多少條文裡面有現有總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13823.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13846.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
阿涵剛才有講到的這個26條、30條、32條、43條這些關於憑決受理啦然後暫時處分這些的規定我只能給這個本委員會聽今天如果第四條修改雖然只修改第四條一條但是他會牽涉到什麼憲法訴訟法裡面第12條有關迴避的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13849.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13854.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
第26條有關顏值辯論應該出席的人的總額有關第30條對於判決參與評議的人數第32條案件受理的人數這個第43條暫時處分裁定的人數第48條雖然有現有總額但他是規定立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13868.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13878.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
第七十五條彈劾成立的人數．第八十條宣告政黨解散的人數．第八十七條統一解釋法律命令的參與評議的人數． |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13883.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13900.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以今天這條如果修改下去牽涉到這麼多法條的修訂了那這麼多法條修訂之後我個人認為說在我們堅持修第四條的最後造成的最大矛盾的結果就是第12條了 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13902.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13913.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這是我們在憲法訴訟條裡面的第12條我們現在修把它修改說本法所稱之法定總額本法所稱之現有總額就是法定總額那第12條怎麼解釋來副院長解釋給他第12條怎麼解釋第12條的現有總額就是法定總額他為什麼又排除掉了呢那寫在第12條裡面他所說的現有總額就不是法定總額啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13929.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13949.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那本身你這樣修改之後這跟第12條第4條跟第12條就彼此就矛盾了啊解釋啦如果因為現在的話就很所以所以這個就是倉促立法除草立法只為了只為了要他們所剛剛一再講的只為了要癱瘓憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13952.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13957.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
就做這樣子的修法他下去牽涉到我剛剛所講的這麼多的法條而我們剛剛一再講我們憲法法院的判決不是為了政治政治很少由機關所提出來的這個憲法判決佔多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13973.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13997.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那不到2%不到2%大部分都是人民所提出來的所以我們憲法法院的判決跟過去的大法官會議解釋我一再強調他是是人民司法救濟的最後手段他是攸關人民權益的這個救濟的最後手段而這個人民權益救濟的最後手段我們因為一個案子兩個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13998.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
14005.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
的他所具有的政治性然後我們就說啊那我們不就把整個整個這個憲法法庭把它癱瘓掉大部分是人民的權益就是直接這樣子就剝奪了人民最終救濟的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
14014.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
14034.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
這就好像你對一個判決你對一個個案的司法判決不滿你就把整個司法制度把法院判決把它凍結起來我們把中華民國三級法院我說因為你看你們法官做恐龍法官做這種判決所以我今天立法院我把你整個整個這個三級法院的權的職能整個把你攤換掉這樣做對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
14037.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
14062.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我們今天因為他們今天一整個早上國民黨委員在這裡所講的這些這幾個解釋的個案然後就要癱瘓整個憲法法庭的運作這樣子對嗎所以我希望說今天但是我看國民黨今天擺出來的陣仗顯然等一下完了大概他們又要用表決又要用用用多數人數多數要停止討論直接表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
14065.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
14087.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我個人認為是真的應該國民黨應該好好考慮選埃勒馬我們先審大法官會與人事同意權之後我們再來審審查憲法訴訟法以上謝謝委員謝謝那下一位我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答那在黃國昌委員執行後我們就休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
14100.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
14113.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
主席不好意思我先會議詢問一下我是真的會議詢問跟其他會議詢問要夾達實質內容性質的會議詢問完全不一樣我真的要問的事情是我們已經停止會議詢問了沒有關係來請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
14126.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
14139.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
你好副秘書長我看你今天的頭銜是副秘書長上次來是代理秘書長啊怎麼上次來代理秘書長這次變副秘書長我們立法院是什麼你們司法院的職稱是換來換去喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
14142.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
14143.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
司法院出入規程有帶領秘書長的規定嗎?有還是沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
14162.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
14165.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以沒有嘛知錯能改司法院要守法這很重要明明就沒有代理制度司法院欸司法院自己都不守法 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
14175.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
14198.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
沒有法源基礎稿代理秘書長今天知道自己錯了趕回副秘書長喔沒有因為實際上面就是代理處理我們也沒有用司法院秘書長的職權也沒有也所以實際上就來你就看嘛你上次送來的阿不就是代理秘書長不要再強辯了嘛謝委員謝委員錯就錯了嘛錯了認錯就好了啦謝委員指教來我們問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
14200.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
14216.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
詐欺犯罪危害防治條例54條很重要啊為什麼很重要我們要加強對被害人的保護啊所以提起民事訴訟的時候暫免繳納訴訟費用嘛這一個規定司法院有沒有通報各級地方法院所有民事法院注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
14218.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
14240.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
有通報還是沒通報?好 你會後查證給我我今天跟秘書長講我們上個會期三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防治條例為了要強化對被害人的保護提起民事訴訟暫免繳納訴訟費用但我收到很多投訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
14241.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
14257.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
說地方法院的法官根本不管什麼叫地方法院的法官根本不管我用其中一個案子來當作例子起訴的時候詐欺犯罪的被害人結果收到法院什麼要他補繳裁判費來請教一下副秘書長命他補繳裁判費的裁定可不可以抗告先停一下不是啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
14269.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
14276.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
你講得太快了啦沒有繳裁判費叫你補繳又不能夠抗告接下來會發生什麼事就裁定駁回了嘛法院自行違法接下來的法律效果是把人民踢出法院之外對這個裁定駁回他可以抗告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
14292.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
14293.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這不是開玩笑的事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
14316.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
14321.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
不要謝謝我啦這是你們該做的事情啦第一線有非常多的被害人欲哭無淚啊那奇怪了問我們立委說你們不是三讀通過了啊怎麼三讀通過了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
14333.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
14352.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
還補繳裁判費裁定還不能抗告接下來馬上要面對什麼接下來馬上要面對訴不合法依照民事訴訟法249條第1項第6款的規定裁定駁回我還要自己跟公務員抗告有這麼離譜的事情喔把我們上個會議起立法院通過的法律當耳邊風啊這個才是真正在犧牲人民的訴訟權益啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
14359.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
14378.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
來我們沿著我們上次討論的話上次我請教你啊我們一一三年宪判制第八號出來了以後其實分兩段第一段殺人是屬於最嚴重的犯罪類型這是在回應什麼這是在回應ICCP第六條第二項的規定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
14381.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
14397.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我們的憲法法庭的判決不是只有限於這裡喔不是只有最嚴重的犯罪類型喔殺人罪當然是最嚴重的犯罪類型就不用講嘛但他還進一步的限縮死刑要限於什麼個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重因為我上次質詢完了以後啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
14401.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
14428.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
有立委上來講說現在法庭只是反映ICCPR第六條第二項我聽完了以後我頓時非常的迷惘他到底有沒有去看那個憲判制的判決啊明明判決就寫兩段第一個殺人是最嚴重的犯罪類型符合ICCPR這沒有問題嘛第二個我上次請教你的是個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重我問你這件事情要怎麼解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
14429.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
14441.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
因為憲法法庭的判決沒有跟大家講這件事情到底要怎麼解釋嘛然後他是用歷史的方式用歷史的方式我上次請教你的問題是說那犯罪動機跟目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
14443.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
14459.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
要預謀殺人 要置義無差別殺人犯罪手段要足以造成多人死亡或者是明顯不能到第三個犯罪的結果是不是要殺害多個人是不是殘害殺害自我保護能力明顯不足的人我上次請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
14460.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
14475.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
副秘書長的事這個到底是要折翼還是變存你上次給我一個非常模糊的答案三個東西全部綜合起來考慮我說你再回去看一下判決我下次會再問你你看完判決以後今天的答案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
14476.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
14478.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我拿刀我拿刀殺害兩個無辜的婦女 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
14507.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
14507.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
委員高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
14531.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14556.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
是不是那個不是我高見啊我綜合你的講法就是有一定的抽象跟不確定性嘛從你的回答大家都聽得出來了嘛好來我們繼續啊再往下看上次為而請教你說各級法院都要一致決那如果接下來是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這件事情產生爭議了我還是可以尋求憲法法院的救濟嘛上次你回答答案是對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14558.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14583.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
像那個檢察總長去申請,檢察總長不一定接受,要看要檢察總長去...不是啦,這兩個部分檢察總長是非常上訴嘛,啊你怎麼會把非常上訴跟請求憲法法院就個案的司法裁判是不是有違憲混淆?現在我在講的是最高法院最高法院的法官,我們5票都同意,這個是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重。 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14584.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14597.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
但是被告認為說這不是個案犯罪情節最嚴重嗎?因為沒有符合上面你所講的那個標準啊他可不可以請求憲法訴訟的救濟?他請求個案裁判的憲法審查可是也要經得起檢驗嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14608.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14627.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
當然啊!你到底在說什麼啊?我們大法官不是說生命很重要嗎?所以要個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊!要程序保障最嚴密啊!全部都是我們大法官講的啊!那進入了有關於憲法訴訟、個案的救濟的時候,憲法法庭要不要一致決?跟委員報告齁,如果他說維持這個將來還有解釋的空間,如果他要維持的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14638.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14643.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以這件事情是我們憲法訴訟憲法法庭的判決沒有講的嘛未來還是有充滿的一定的不確定性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14663.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14682.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
最高法院他發展那個不是最高法院的發展是憲法法庭的事情怎麼會看最高法院的發展抱歉是口誤抱歉好來來看一下齁如果接下來啊憲法法庭要求下級審死刑都要一致決最高法院的法官五個喔都認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14684.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14685.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
目前我沒有辦法去推斷將來的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14704.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14722.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
你不用推斷現在的情形啊到11月1號以後只會剩下八名大法官啊希望能夠如期審查對啦但希望能夠如期審查你要趕快跟民進黨黨團講啊到目前為止啊沒有要求排入議審審查的就是我們的執政黨黨團啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14726.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14748.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
11月1號以後我跟你保證啊你以現在的時間上面來講我跟副秘書長交換一個心得啦我敬重你是一個有風骨的法律人所以我跟你講話也很客氣我在國會殿堂不跟你講政治的事情我只跟你講法律的事情所以我希望你回答的時候就像法律人一樣回答不要學 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14750.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14766.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
不要搞一些油槍滑掉的東西啦這樣子不好啦8月1號以後剩下存的八個大法官在憲法訴訟裡面有幾個在上一次的憲判制的判決當中申請自刑迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14773.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14793.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以接下來我在憲法訴訟的時候申請個案要救濟的時候他們兩個迴避剩下幾個剩下六個嘛那如果按照現在的表決全數有四個大法官認為這不是最嚴重有兩個大法官認為這個是最嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14797.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14817.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
結果變成什麼結果變成的是那本來最高法院的五個大法官所做的死刑宣告維持的死刑宣告就違憲喔是吧不是啦就最高法院的五個法官所維持的死刑判決是不是就會被宣告違憲了好我為什麼要秀這個給你看六個大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14827.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14853.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
做這麼重要的決定四比二的票數四比二的票數做這麼重要的決定直接推翻了所有下集審法院包括最高法院的一致決在制度上面是不是合一在制度上面是不是合一這個問題我不會逼你回答作為一個法律人我們大家共同思考在制度上面這個是不是合一 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14854.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14867.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我接下來要請教你的是因為今天討論這麼嚴肅的問題我跟副秘書長報告我對於司法院所提出來的書面報告我看了覺得很難過因為太單薄了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14868.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14893.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為太單薄了啦我為什麼說太單薄了這麼嚴肅的制度課題我很少看到司法院在討論這麼嚴肅的制度課題的時候完全沒有任何比較法的原因來我請教一下副秘書長美國聯邦最高法院有幾位大法官委員報告9位我們講9位大法官聯邦最高法院要做判決的時候有沒有最低法定人數的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14895.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14910.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
他們是過半數決吧半數決不是啦我跟你講齁我們觀念要搞清楚我們現在在講的出席人數是第一個層次的quorum不是第二個層次的表決權數我們現在在講的是quorum |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14911.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14934.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
出席人數九位最高法院聯邦最高法院的大法官需要多少人出席才可以進行裁判跟委員報告我現在手上沒有明確資料來我秀給你看我我一定知道你沒有準備好明確資料所以我馬上秀給你看美國聯邦最高法院九位大法官最少要多少人他的科人是多少六個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14936.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14958.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
美國可能距離我們太遙遠了我問一點近的日本日本最高裁判所的幾位大法官15位15位嘛15位大法庭因為日本的最高裁判所的小法庭大法庭嘛是不是違憲要大法庭來做決定嘛大法庭要做決定最少要有多少人出席要寫的是要9人是9個人嘛好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14965.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14993.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
聯邦最高法院跟最高裁判所他們基本上沒有獨立設憲法法院跟我們國家的制度不太一樣因為他們的最高法院本來就有釋憲的權利最高裁判所跟聯邦最高法院都一樣那我們來看一下在普通法院系統以外有另外在創設憲法法院系統的南非憲法法院南非憲法法院非常有名啊幾年前南非憲法法院的大法官我們司法院都有邀請他來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14993.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
15017.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
解釋南非憲法法院實際上面的運作南非憲法法院有多少大法官11位我寫的你後面都可以去檢證如果我有寫錯再麻煩副秘書長給我指教11位憲法法院的大法官最少要有幾個人參與才可以做判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
15018.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
15019.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
最少要有幾個人出席? |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
15032.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
15053.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
審判部要7人以上要7人以上出席嘛現在我都還沒有在講喔出席以後到底要三分之二多數決還是要二分之一的簡單多數決我都還沒有講到這個層次喔這個只是quorum第一個層次第一個層次不管是美國還是日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
15055.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
15079.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
普通法院有事件權的或者是南非憲法法院或者是韓國憲法法院在普通法院以外另外設憲法法院的不管是哪一個體系的都有最低人數的要求我請教一下副秘書長這一些國家的立法者在立這些法律的時候竟然有最低人數的要求啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
15081.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
15102.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
他們是不是要毀憲亂政啊?是不是要癱壞憲法法院啊?他們的立法意旨會是這樣嗎?來請教副秘書長各位委員報告那當然各個國家有各個國家的這個背景應該不是這些國家應該不是有這種情形嘛這個國家不是這種情形嘛所以我們法律員回到理性來思考問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
15103.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
15131.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
一個執掌市縣最高法院的機關需不需要有最低人數的要求要不要有call人這是一個制度性的問題我再強調一次這是一個制度性的問題我們當初在處理憲法訴訟法的時候根本沒有處理這個問題嘛我為什麼知道沒有處理這個問題那個時候相關的文獻我全部看完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
15131.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
15154.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
沒有人在處理這個問題啊當初施改國事會議的時候啊寫的是全體大法官寫的是全體大法官那個時候為什麼會要求三分之二要參與討論大家腦袋裡面在想的是什麼是15個裡面的三分之二但是到現在的法條變成這個樣子的時候在實際運作上就會有問題但我們怎麼樣橫平 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
15160.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
15179.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所謂橫評是說讓憲法訴訟的制度可以好好的運作第二個在制度上面在制度上面是不是需要有最低人數的要求這些國家的立法者我相信就像副秘書長剛剛所講的他絕對不是為了毀憲亂政他也絕對不是為了要癱瘓憲法訴訟他們才會去做這樣子的規定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
15188.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
15211.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
所以我建議副秘書長代表司法院到國會來備詢回答相關的問題的時候要有司法院的樣子要有司法院的高度不要隨著一些莫名其妙的發言在那邊隨之起舞這樣讓大家看了會很失望跟副秘書長共勉好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在休息小一點半開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
15223.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
15225.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
18187.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
18188.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
謝龍介委員翁曉玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
18217.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
18241.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
18244.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
18264.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
18267.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
18277.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
有沒有這個缺位 缺額這麼多最多大概就是迴避六位的那一次吧那對 那個是迴避 但是我說如果是缺額的話最多的 目前我記到我們書記廳的統計 最多的缺額是五位曾經是有五位 那麼如果說以我們法定總額十五人來講的話 就算是缺額五位也還有十人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
18293.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
18301.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案 案。．立法院第十四條條文修正草案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
18316.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
18334.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那麼來進行這個裁判審議那麼這個部分在其他的民主國家裡面蠻多國家其實他們都有明定在他們的憲法法院訴訟憲法法院法或是憲法訴訟法裡面都有明定最低的開會人數他是有道理在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
18334.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
18337.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
18347.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
18368.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
18370.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
18384.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
18386.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
18405.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
18407.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
18426.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這是我們希望在憲法裁判的作成能夠更加的嚴謹這也符合這次大法官在死刑有條件和憲判決裡面的主要的意旨我們要在程序上面要採取最嚴格最嚴謹的方式去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
18430.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
18455.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
18456.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
18484.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
18487.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
18493.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
18509.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
18529.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
18530.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
18530.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
憲法訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
18550.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
18550.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
18570.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
18573.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
雖然缺額有最低人數但是他們也有說那上一任的或者是上一任的任期屆滿沒有來得及改選的時候有延長任期的這些規定就延長任期或者是說暫時行使諮詢這些規定那我們這邊都沒有鳳斌市長的這個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
18591.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
18608.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
18620.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
18643.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
18646.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
18655.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
條文會有相衝突憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定依本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
18676.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
18680.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我只修了憲法第四條的條文欸!憲法訴訟法第四條的條文!對不對?你們這樣的解釋是有問題的!是錯的! |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
18691.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
18714.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法會需要解釋。這怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
18716.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
18736.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
18740.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
18746.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
18769.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
18779.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
18795.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
18798.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這是秘書處自己、憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
18809.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
18826.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這一這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
18828.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
18845.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要採高標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
18849.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
18855.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
來進行裁判來進行審理嗎對我認為說這個秘書長你應該回去反映給現在的這個院長他還剩下幾天就要卸任請他還是要去跟賴總統講啦那麼如果說是我們未來審查這個大法官人士同意權可能不見得完全通過有少部分通過的話他也要尊重民意能夠重新提出新的名單好不好好OK那就先這樣好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
18877.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
18877.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
張瑞雄議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
18894.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
18896.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
國民黨的朋友一直認為你們沒有民意的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
18922.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
18941.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
很難去想像在我國的各級法院裡面任何的一個判決裡面會講到所謂的民意的一個基礎我反而認為大法官憲法法庭民意是很沸騰的大法官反而或各級法院的法官反而要保持非常的冷靜 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
18944.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
18970.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我心如秤怎麼會是外界的民意多沸騰希望你怎麼樣那你就怎麼樣那如果是這樣子的話要法官所謂的獨立於黨派之外法官來做一個獨立的一個審判規定這樣的一個條文就可能就失去他的一個意義了歐委員其實他的立法我知道他的意思要幹什麼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
18971.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
18999.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
他一直是希望說聽大法官憲法法庭裡面能夠涵蓋更多元的意見跟觀點但是我看了你最近的一個答詢其實我上一次我也跟你們講司法院是一個憲政的機關立法院跟你們其實是平起平坐你們到這個地方這一次從翁委員提出他的一個草案以後我發現你們的立場踩得不夠硬 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
19001.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
19027.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
為什麼說不夠硬你們不是為自己而硬而是為這個憲政機關這個憲政機關你們該有的態度你們要來讓民眾知道你像比如說從委員上的會期提到的憲法訴訟法那個修正條文裡面這個我相信很多人也會去高度質疑就是說會不會變相去卡關到憲法法庭的違憲審查跟其他重要的一個職能你說這個整個人數裡面你去來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
19030.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
19037.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
假設我們這個憲法法庭組成以後你案件要進來了第一個就是到底要不要受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
19037.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
19062.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
你這個會牽扯到你要不要受理的話你就本身你要去做評議啊然後你一個憲法的判決要做出來以後你們在評決裡面人到底還夠不夠啊那另外第三個就是你還是做一個暫時處分啊涉及到三個環節我一直認為啊我一直認為啊你像譬如說憲法法庭裡面啊反而要是把它降低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
19064.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
19085.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反那相反不是不能對話你像比如說大法官其實你說先牽扯到整個事件案件人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門各個機關所提的訴訟案件那是千差萬別啊也就是說憲法法庭大法官你的意義到底功能到底要幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
19086.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
19096.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
你就是要提供給一個最後的限制政府機關的權利來讓老百姓得到更好的救濟不是如此嗎代理秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
19098.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
19121.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
你也認為是如此吧?如果是如此的話,那我倒會覺得啊,你也能建議啊,人民的,申請釋憲的,那個反而標準要更低,讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭,除了他胡說八道嘛,他這個程序不完備,或者說不付任何理由的一看就知道,那不可能來受理的。那行政部門的釋憲的, |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
19122.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
19143.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那也許他認為說你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關那也許他的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高把他區分人民跟政府我不曉得通不通但是我直接的感受就是憲法法庭你本來就是要提供給民眾萬一他受委屈了怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
19144.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
19171.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
你像我們很多一審二審三審的案件一個終局判決做下來以後那你怎麼辦他要申請釋憲啊那理論上到三審定讞了以後這個案子已經結束了可是憲法法庭裡面他現在變成受到的民眾可以拿他憲法法庭的判決裡面來做申請再審這個就是提供人民的一個救濟的機會喔你來告訴我你都不好意思啦立法院水準真的我再講一次立法院水準真的沒有很高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
19174.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
19183.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
你們要大聲跟社會講 你們要大聲跟社會講你說談法律見解 你說你司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗 你們就笑死人了不是嗎 那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭來宣告違憲為什麼社會上會給你們拍手 有原因啦不是因為你們沒有 你們擁有民意基礎啦 不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
19201.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
19204.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
裡面還是沒有民意基礎．可是裡面做出來．我早上舉的例子啊．酒駕的你強制給人家抽血啊．大法官就跟你說你要限期修法．對不對立法院可能跟你講我理你捏我民選出來我就不理你捏不理你就宣告無效就這麼簡單徹底到人權的保障老百姓就會站在你這一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
19227.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
19243.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
不是嗎?應該涉及到一國婚姻的一國子女的監護權的這大法官很有名的一個見解啊你說任何一照要把子女帶出去大法官就跟你講不行也要尊重這一個小朋友他主觀的一個意願裁定就把你給確定判決給廢棄掉啦不是這樣子嗎?所以這個時候大法官你們有沒有民意基礎?沒有啊民眾拍手說大家光老 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
19259.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
19270.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
什麼時候大法官憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎沒有啊以前老國代也好老立委也好終生啊做一輩子啊大法官會議做出一個判決定期麻將就該選掉了不是嗎甚至於啊國民黨最怕的是什麼國民黨最怕的是說到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
19288.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
19314.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
大法官也可以來有你自己的一個看法以現在台灣的政治環境來看的話看你敢不敢而已啊連制憲都可以啦但是如果站在大法官的立場大法官在我看來已經是極度保守了一個極度保守的一個組成的有一些進步的想法那第一反而期待說他一定要有一個民意的一個基礎笑死人了來 你的看法是怎麼樣大膽講出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
19316.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
19339.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
大法官在作成的時候當然不會是只以民意為考量啦他最終還是要忠於憲法憲法上面在保障人權的意志是怎麼樣大法官的責任是要正確的闡述這個憲法上面的意志那這個斟酌的情形不會只以民意去考量 是不是是 所以我的意思就是說像比如這件照好像大家一直在談說台大那個案子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
19340.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
19352.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那個才在法宣那個案子你說因為法官迴避大法官迴避以後那剩下九個人那當然要迴避啊迴避制度是在不管任何的一個訴訟案件裡面只要碰到都要迴避啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
19354.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
19378.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
你如果說代理秘書長假設假設你的案子一審碰到我我把你判下去了你輸了嘿你上書了到二審嘿你夠衰我升官了你二審又碰到我我當然要迴避阿如果說不用迴避嘿你又上書到三審剛好我升遷速度更快你三審全部都碰到我你衰你個衰死當然要迴避阿所以這個叫做法定事由全世界各國都一樣阿美國就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
19382.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
19400.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
美國沒有憲法法庭,他們叫最高法院,對不對?他們幾個法官?他們幾個大法官?九個啊,對不對?你去看帝國,十五個、十六個,但是他分庭嘛。他強調的也不是民意基礎啊。而且你注意看美國人數多少人?人口三億的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
19405.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
19429.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
所以我們在跟別人類比的時候啊我很擔心這個法案是造成產生的一個衝擊啊產生的衝擊啊啊不然你說尊重大法官有更多元的一個觀點這好事這是好事所以大移民主席這個案如果通過之後你可以揣測到你預期到我跟你講喔以前的人數會過喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
19431.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
19445.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
你不要開玩笑喔 真的會過喔所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊要去告訴社會說這個會產生怎麼樣的一個結果啊我看你若無咧 我看你若無咧你看以前老國台你的計劃擴權自肥案導致整個修憲第五次那一次無效為什麼 為什麼修憲可以無效大法官就跟你說無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
19460.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
19481.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
你沒有人會跟你講說你沒有民意基礎啊這不是這樣講這才是在講什麼民意的一個基礎啊所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦比較擔心一點啦說我們今天這樣的一個大家這樣的一個法案在做討論的時候啊司法院本身的立場不夠明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
19482.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
19502.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
說完大法官 憲法法庭是維護自由民主憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的一個憲法的一個守護神這樣的一個職能你們不能把它給拋棄掉從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面那個正當性社會當然可以去挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
19503.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
19513.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
但是呢 這個是一個憲政的一個基礎 如果這一條憲 如果我們 你們自己本身吶 都覺得秤菜都沒關係 我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔 我很喜歡吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
19519.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
19541.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
德國聯邦憲法法庭的法官克里爾佛他講過了一句話我來送給你立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關他也是憲法的共同形成者這個我覺得很重要變成說現代國家的一個憲法行授的一個保證司法院不是立法院的敵人不會是立法院也不會是你們的敵人但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
19549.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
19556.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這真的我是覺得期許啦,10萬人來到這裡,比較大聲的,你也不一定要跟人家說什麼啊,但你那個立場真的是要,你立場要很堅硬啊,因為畢竟,守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院啦,是各個憲政機關裡面,連立法院啦,我們都是共同守護憲法的一個夥伴啦,這個,你們好不好,要自己要加油,要把社會真的是要去,立場要講得夠清楚,產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣,不然在開玩笑,如果要說逼人的,我告訴你,這一步你不用來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
19579.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
19579.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我們下一位請陳俊宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
19606.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
19610.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請黃副秘書長好 麻煩副秘書長副秘書長吳安 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
19617.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
19642.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
從今天早上的會議開始我們各位委員所發言時就不斷地強調這個憲訴法的修法姿勢提大那審查的不只是第四條和第九十五條連動到目前已經禁覆二讀的另外兩條對於憲法法庭的制度以及人民向大法官尋求救濟的權利都有直接的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
19643.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
19665.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
所以應該先召開公聽會來邀請憲法學者專家對修法內容廣納社會的建言同時也希望先進行大法官人事同意權的審查避免大法官及院長懸缺在對於憲法訴訟制度需要再精進或是檢討的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
19666.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
19691.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
進行更細緻的討論想先藉今天的這個尋答機會就兩者對於司法機關運作的影響來就叫我們複密首先是在憲法訴訟法第四條要修正大法官現有的這個總額明定為這個法定的總額也就是這個憲法修訂條文第五條所定的這個法定人數為15位大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
19693.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
19712.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
但若將五院當中以委員制運作的機關比較,有關人數總額的規定來看,包括在本院的職權行使法第四條第二項當中寫到有關立法委員的總額,是以每會期實際報到的人數為計算的標準。 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
19714.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
19735.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
並排除掉會期中這個辭職還有去職者人數會因為不同情況而流動現有的這個總額也應該以現行在職的這個人數為準那我想請教這個複密認為現有的這個總額和法定總額應該如何區分以避免這個混淆 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
19736.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
19761.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我想我們相關法制除了憲法訴訟法以外憲有總額在很多會議制的都會存在所以基本上來講憲有跟法定既然這個用語不一樣真的不太能夠一般的理解不太能夠說這兩個是一樣的那憲有總額當然是指現在能夠行使職權通常理解是這樣所以缺額 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
19762.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
19763.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
19781.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
19804.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
大法官會議的時代到現在幾十年來的理解都是一致的也不會因為憲法訴訟法制定以後有不同而且跟其他相關的制度跟包含剛才委員所垂詢的立法院職權刑事法這些相關的規定都是一樣的理解所以我們是認為說如果要就憲法訴訟法的這個憲法總和去比擬到法制統和我覺得真的是有斟酌的餘地 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
19807.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
19829.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好那這個委員在這個提案的這個立法理由裡面有寫到是要避免單一或是少數這個觀點主導判決但修法版這個修法的這個版本將門檻提高卻可能讓在實務上產生自愛難行的情況可能包括這個憲法訴訟法第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
19831.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
19856.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
大法官依法迴避或因其他事由缺席我想請教副秘書長在實際的舉例修法所造成實務上難以作成判決的原因以及在現行的制度下大法官對於各項會議的參與情形及投入的情況程度為何是否曾發生委員所擔心的由少數觀點主導判決的這種極端情形產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
19860.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
19882.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
跟委員報告那之前有跟各位委員報告過從以往到現在說因為只有少數兩三位大法官就決定一個重要的這種憲政議題憲法上面的議題目前是沒有沒有啦所以說所以說我們也是認為說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
19882.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
19899.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
希望說大法官嚴謹做成裁判這個我相信是每個人意見都一樣但是修法如果像各位委員所執行的這個樣子那麼會導致可預見的這個未來極可能極可能讓這個憲法法庭沒有辦法運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
19899.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
19923.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
沒有辦法運作那導致非常多的人民申請這個憲法裁判因此懸在那邊人們得不到緊急救濟尤其像剛才我也有講到有一些人民申請就還蠻緊急的像之前的那個義大利富商的小孩要帶出去的家處分案件那個說實話大法官也要用最快的速度去做成因為那個拖個一個禮拜就不必再判了 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
19924.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
19925.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
19944.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
19959.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那即使職權到即在達完就業為止那也是可以去思考其實很多的國家像我們的公司法像很多的法會認為那是理所當然解釋不需要明定今天假設你新的董事沒有產生我們有很多的事務解釋認為說即使沒有明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
19960.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
19960.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
19976.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
19992.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
再三拜託大院各位委員能夠三思的地方好那我們從這個圖表上圖表上這個歷年的這個大法官判決的門檻這個部分我們請那個副秘令看一下每年平均的這個判決數從 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
19993.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
20016.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
一九五八年的這個大法官會議法到一九九三年的大審法再到如今的這個限訴法隨著大法官出席和表決的門檻下修做成判決的案件數也隨之提升那符合當初下修門檻讓憲法法庭效能提升案件較容易審結的這個目標我想請教副秘書長若再設 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
20017.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
20029.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
設高這個大法官參與和表決的門檻提升判決的這個難度是否會將導致判決數可能再度的銳減那更會直接影響到人民權利的這個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
20030.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
20058.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
委員報告那那個憲法訴訟法就是之前的2017年的司法改革國事會議要求說必須降為那個多數決那就是因為要解決以往因為門檻非常的高一些人民權益救濟的案件因為不管各方的見解都達不到達不到原來要求的這些這些門檻的時候導致沒有辦法一直長久沒有辦法解決這些人民權益的這些問題因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
20060.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
20076.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
因此那個司法國務司會要求降低到過半數那也參考其他國家的制度憲法訴訟法才會這樣定定如果現在又修回去即可能有一些的案件又會回到早些年沒有辦法解決的問題的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
20076.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
20104.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
好那從目前的這個國會的僵局來看針對大法官的這個人事同意權的行使恐怕一再延宕那很有可能從下週五開始我們的司法院正副院長都將首次出現同時出缺那根據司法院組織法第七條第五項由總統就大法官中指定一位代理院長但不論是由哪位大法官來代理首長畢竟只能作為這個過渡期的職務代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
20105.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
20127.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那不論是要進行任何的這個政務決策或是這個法規修正,正當性可能都會受到質疑。我想請教父民,針對接下來極有可能發生多名這個首長懸缺及代理的情形,對司法院及下轄的這個各級法院的政務推動,可能會產生多大的這種程度影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
20128.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
20151.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
跟委員報告站在司法院的立場當然希望說我們新任的這個司法院長能夠順利的及時來產生因為我們司法院非常多的這些重要的這個司法的政策包含改革的方向包含說跟大院承諾或是我們認知各界的需要去改變的這些司法的這些作為都需要新的這個首長來去做這個決斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
20155.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
20155.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
20171.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
20195.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我想憲法法庭不只是負責審查立法院的職權或是死刑這類的重大議題更多的可能是針對人民基本權益的保障以及對行政權及立法權的制衡況且當下我們處於立法院職權憲判出爐的前夕 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
20195.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
20218.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
且大法官人事案還未獲得排審,對於憲法訴訟制度的檢討容易失焦,淪為侵犯司法權的政治攻防手段,因此我們的主張若不審查大法官的人事權,就不應該審查憲法訴訟法,避免司法院首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
20218.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
20219.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
謝謝陳委員 那我們待會請羅志強委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
20263.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
20264.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
請吳宗憲委員進行詢答請副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
20274.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
20275.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
20306.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
20306.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
三位,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
20326.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
20349.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
市長,我再講一次,我們舊法論法,我們現在不講,我不是問你歷史故事,如果今天回避的回避,請假的請假,那只有五個人能夠出庭,請問一下依照現行我國的憲法訴訟法的規定,幾位大法官以上同意的話可以做出這個判決?目前15位的話,13分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
20353.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
20369.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
目前目前現在就是最少十月十位出席嗎對不對那除了如果說有迴避當然就扣除對你都沒有回答我的問題不是啊複密不用這樣嗎為什麼每次我我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
20370.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
20394.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我問的問題都是很直接簡單了當嘛那如果說我今天我跟你講如果我今天開庭這樣問問當事人問題的話或是我在那邊亂講搞不好法官也會制止我說你在那邊講什麼的所以好啦那沒關係複密不方便回答我就跟複密說如果依照現行我國的法律到最後只有五個人出庭的話那只要三個人同意他就可以做出判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
20396.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
20406.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
這我講的啦那你不方便講沒關係那我們回過頭來我們去思考一個問題這一次大法官他做出來的憲判八號他有一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
20408.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
20431.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
我們發現當初我們為什麼認為說大法官呢他同一個專長的不要超過三分之一為什麼同一專單一專業不要超過三分之一就是希望能夠有多元的大法官嘛那才不會說有時候做出來的一些判決可能跟實務差太多那這一次的憲判 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
20432.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
20455.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我們就發現一個非常明確的問題因為前幾次我在質詢法務部長的時候父命你都有在我們講一個最簡單的這一次做出來的憲判這些大法官他很多人搞不清楚羈押的要件是什麼所以他才會在憲判裏面要求說這些死刑犯這三七位死刑犯被告回歸到普通法案的時候法官應予羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
20456.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
20472.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那我也知道因為你羈押啊但是跟現行的羈押制度的法律規定都不一樣那我再回過頭去看了一下這15位大法官的背景我後來發現原來只有3位法官有15的審判經驗難怪今天會變成這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
20473.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
20496.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
等於是有12位根本搞不清楚羈押的要件是什麼或是他們沒有想過或是不熟所以今天才會變成說大法官他在下憲判的時候他直接告訴你說這個人如果回歸到普通法案審理的時候你要羈押結果這個羈押跟刑訴用法的羈押要件根本不符也就是這37個死刑犯如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
20497.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
20516.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
檢察總長認為他非常上訴成功之後他們回歸普通法院很有可能馬上就被放掉回家了所以這個是我這一次發現說原來那個憲法訴訟法要求單一專業法官不能夠超過三分之一這是何等重要的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
20519.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
20544.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
所以我在這邊跟你們說為什麼今天翁曉玲委員他會提出這樣的要求他其實也是要避免到萬一將來有一些狀況會導致能夠出庭的法官數大法官數非常少的時候可能會變成是三個四個人然後就決定一個是那個等於是憲法判決的案子今天其實翁曉玲委員他只是要這樣提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
20544.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
20546.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
我這邊就跟各位報告這個然後剛剛吳孝文其實他也搞錯他拿德國來講他一開始講的沒錯啊德國是兩個庭沒錯啊每個庭八位啊要六位出席嘛他就說他剛剛講錯的是說德國八位我們這邊為什麼要十位 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
20563.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
20579.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
實際上德國是八位但是他要六位出席也就是說要超過他是超過四分之三欸他如果拿這個來引用到台灣來等於是我們還比德國更寬鬆即使一趟小林委員的法案也比德國更寬鬆啊那我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
20579.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
20596.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那個吳孝文剛剛是不是要幫翁曉玲委員講話他才引德國的例子還是他根本就搞不清楚自己在講什麼那後者比較可能啦後者他可能根本搞不清楚他自己在講什麼德國他是一庭是八人嘛他有兩庭然後八人要有六人出庭嘛是這樣子嘛對不對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
20598.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
20598.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
所以齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
20624.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
20650.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
回過頭來其實剛剛黃國昌委員他有提出很多不同國家的憲法法庭或者是最高法院的那個他們的那個大法官或法官人數的比例啦事實上台灣這次修法如果修到像翁委員的這個提出來的法案其實他也不是一個非常嚴格的要求甚至比我們鄰近的其他幾個國家比如說韓國美國德國其實我們也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
20651.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
20651.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
20671.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
20690.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
回到我剛剛講的,其實有一些極端的狀況下,確實有可能只要三個大法官同意,他就會做出憲法的判決,依據憲刑制度是有可能。那法律的存在並不是說過去有例子我才怎麼樣立法,而是法律定立之後就是要盡量能夠應付將來每一種可能發生的案例。 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
20692.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
20719.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
為什麼我會提這個就是因為這一次的憲判制他等於是憲判八他等於是捅了一個大樓子給實務界就我剛說的第一個回歸普通法案以後根本就沒辦法羈押這些大法官不知道還說你那個普通法案的法官要記得押他這根本就搞錯了第二個假釋門檻的問題假釋門檻他是要以行為時所以有一些人是試用15年就可以假釋欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
20720.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
20746.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
他已經在裡面關很久了那是不是沒有幾年後就可以申請假釋第三個我們將來還會面對一個更嚴重的問題憲判八號完全忘記收容可不可以折抵刑期這個東西他完全忘記講了所以有一些人他已經收容了十幾年了那以後人權團體一定會出來替這些死刑犯說啊收容也要記錄刑期的折抵啊否則你憑什麼限制他的人身自由到最後變成他們可能只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
20748.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
20761.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
回歸普通法院判無期徒刑馬上就可以申請假釋立刻就可以申請無期徒刑的假釋所以這些東西都是實務面對的結果我們國家的大法官我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
20763.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
20782.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我們這次的大法官只有一個單一的專業啦就是全部都跟執政黨走了這個單一專業其他我覺得單一專業都不足啦所以十五 這一次我剛剛說了只有三位有十五的審判經驗所以才會導致這一次羈押也沒有弄清楚假釋也沒有弄清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
20783.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
20811.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
收容可不可以折抵刑期也沒有提到那這樣子的憲判出來一定是給法務部以及司法院造成很大的困擾那沒關係在座很多人不懂沒有實務審判經驗在那邊笑我覺得就算了我也不會去講不懂的人那你們一定懂得我在講什麼將來我們就看嘛101刑訴法101條101之1的積壓要件就那幾個而已你有沒有辦法符合那個積壓要件去壓了他們這就是一個實務第一線面對問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
20814.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
20837.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
上個禮拜你跟法務部長兩個都回答不了我這個問題其實到今天我問了非常多我實務界的同學也每個人也跟我說這會是馬上面臨的大問題但是到現在還是無解所以我還是認為大法官真的他的專業要能夠多元那這樣才不會像憲判制8號立出來這個完全實務上面以後捅的這個大樓子自己都還搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
20839.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
20866.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我覺得掌握了所有宣傳媒體的人他就是不讓人民去知道捅了那麼大的婁子但是我現在講的每個東西各位都是司法官訓練所的學長我如果有講錯真的歡迎你們來說我講錯但是我很難過的是這些東西就是我現在目前看到將來馬上要面對司法上面實務上的最大問題很有可能有一天你坐電梯你家社區就住了這37個人的其中一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
20867.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
20867.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
謝謝副委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
20900.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
20902.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
主席有請副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
20921.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
20941.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
副秘書長,我聽了包括吳思瑤委員還有很多名將來立法院前面的論述,尤其吳思瑤委員,他特別強調他說按照這個我們如果不去修改今天的憲法訴訟法,絕對不會出現說有幾個大法官就能夠做出憲法判決的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
20942.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
20965.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
到底會不會出現幾個大法官就決定憲法判決的情形我們的吳思瑤委員的數學是100分還是0分我就請我們專業的副秘書長來跟大家來數學來去檢驗一下我想請教一下副秘書長現任15位大法官有7位在10月31號認滿對不對那認滿之後才剩幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
20971.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
20972.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
請問依照憲法訴訟法我們的總額是幾位? |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
20988.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
20988.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
三分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
21007.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
21018.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
八人的三分之二是幾人?六個人那要幾個人同意才能夠做出憲法判決?現有總額過半嘛八人過半是多少?五位嘛,好來我們來看看圖表這是在所謂的沒有迴避的情況之下迴避零同意的人就是五位那如果有一位大法官迴避現有會變幾位? |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
21035.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
21037.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那同意會變幾位?沒關係你告訴我四位對不對?那迴避二的話現有會剩幾位?然後同意會剩幾位?迴避三的話現有剩幾個? |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
21054.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
21055.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
21082.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
21090.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
剩下四位那同意剩幾位剩下三位然後現有如果是迴避五位現有剩幾位三位同意剩幾位情形就非常非常的這個極端當然越底下越極端嘛我說過啦那迴避是六位呢六位發生過吧對不對那六位那現有會變幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
21108.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
21131.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
你回答我 我只是跟你講邏輯問題嘛 現在有兩位啦 對不對 我知道我跟你講 法律你能夠不顧遇到所謂的最特殊狀況嗎 能不能 你還是要考慮啊我先跟你講嘛 現在規定是不是這樣 同意幾個就可以同意 如果迴避六個 幾個同意就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
21132.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
21136.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
你告訴我啊,過半是幾個?現在有兩個,過半是幾個?過半就是二嘛,不是嗎?那就兩個嘛,來,最極端的狀況,七個迴避,現在有剩幾個? |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
21151.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
21169.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
剩幾個啊?你不要跟我講不可能數學上不可能不等於法律上都不可能法律在設計上基本上就要考量各種狀況啊那最後是說同意剩幾人照現有法律喔你不要迴避我問題喔你不要跟我講前提可不可以我說如果照現有法律這情況發生7個迴避的時候剩幾個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
21176.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
21188.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
幾個人嗎?你不敢回答我直接告訴你,我不管你想像我就是跟你講發生了以後剩幾個人?法律規定,在法研法你是法律人在法研法啊幾個人?一個人啦!到現在不敢回答! |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
21195.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
21213.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
國小數學答不出來跟吳世堯一樣我跟你講我不跟你講極端值一個人那麼吳宗憲委員說可能只有三四個決定有錯嗎有沒有可能你跟我講一個不可能是因為不會迴避七個你說想像上不可能那想像上迴避一個總有可能吧有沒有可能那就是四個啊吳宗憲委員說的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
21221.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
21237.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
他說對不對所以我要告訴你阿今天司法院這個法律你們要謝謝翁曉玲委員阿他今天就是要把這個漏洞補起來嘛我今天說實在話我在想下一個問題我要跟你講來來沒關係我要跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
21239.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
21253.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
今天翁曉玲委員的主張就是希望大法官能夠堅記多元性跟嚴謹性嘛所以要回到憲法本文的所謂的15個元額來去定義現有嘛 對不對翁曉玲版本是不是你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
21255.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
21261.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
為什麼要把你把這麼國小這麼無聊的國小問題去問堂堂的副秘書長不只是因為吳世耀的數學有問題而是我告訴你這個問題就產生下一個我要問的問題你知道為什麼今天非得補這個洞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
21281.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
21297.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
因為你不補這個洞因為有這現有迴避的規定的話就會產生一個叫做鼓勵總統亂提人的現象啊你知道為什麼嗎就像這一次你也知道齁台灣民眾八成反對廢除死刑嘛對不對沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
21301.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
21318.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
然後呢這次大法官就是搞出一個實質廢止判決為藉有很多的疑慮可是我們親愛的賴清德總統他就提七個大法官六個主張廢除死刑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
21320.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
21344.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
六個主張廢除死刑那我要告訴你問題在哪裡他就算這七個都不過照你現在這種漏洞制度我只要剩下那八個人四個人就可以去通過我今天剛剛吳宗憶委員講的我們大法官目前擁有的第一專業叫做民進黨的神奇寶貝只要神奇寶貝打出來就可以幫民進黨洗地因為他只要現在的人就可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
21345.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
21358.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這些都是環環相扣的那在下我再請教一下我聽不太懂吳思堯跟民進黨委員我講第二件事情一直強調大法官不需要民意大法官不需要我問一下我有沒有民意基礎我有沒有民意基礎那為什麼大法官要立法院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
21373.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
21396.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
就是要有民意基礎的人同意結果你還附和這些民進黨的立委你剛剛講到大法官不用民意基礎大法官審判說不需要考慮民意憲法是人民決定的為什麼不用民意基礎這句話都講得出來我真的佩服你啊今天我要說一句實在話大法官如果不需要民意基礎我跟秘書長建議一件事很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
21398.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
21413.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
修憲嘛大法官不需要立法院同意啦大法官就說今天大法官乃民進黨之神奇寶貝由總統決定任命之結束啦不需要民意基礎就這麼幹就好啦幹嘛要民意基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
21415.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
21430.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
我再想下一個問題我想請教一下我們副秘書長明顯來講大法官現在的狀況這個所謂的人民申請的釋憲案很多我想請問目前政府機關提出的釋憲案受理的比例是多少政府機關受理的政府機關受理多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
21440.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
21453.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
百分之百啦!你們只要民進黨敢送的你哪一個不敢不受理?最近僅是民進黨送的東西有沒有受理?只要是行政機關送的你受理沒?民進黨政府受理沒?好統計給我你不敢講沒關係人民的受理多少?人民不受理九成對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
21464.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
21466.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
所以我跟你講今天我們民進黨在這邊講的那個非常光免堂皇的三大論點第一個跟你保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
21487.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
21514.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
不會有幾個大法官就把這憲法判決做了我剛國小數學題告訴你就是會發生那第二跟你講大法官不需要民意基礎那我覺得你直接修憲你修憲不需要立法院同意直接讓大法官變成我們親愛的民進黨的神奇寶貝一丟一球出去就出來開始洗地第三個跟我講說人民的案件多你現在人民案件有九成你不受理民進黨送的馬上受理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
21516.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
21517.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
林德福委員吳思瑤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
21537.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
21566.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
謝謝主席 抱歉 樓下還在協商總預算那今天真的在立法院風火連天 有很多的戰場但我認為 重中之重當然就是 台灣是不是能夠捍衛我們的憲政法制憲法訴訟法 為修而修 為快而快讓立法權優於司法權這樣子的做法實在是要三思要三百思 要三萬思啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
21567.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
21590.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
立委沒有這麼大自己推一堆違憲的法案害怕釋憲然後呢就說大法官是你民進黨開的如果不違憲就不會怕釋憲更不會需要像今天在野黨啟動了毀憲的修法下一頁我們來說席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
21592.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
21597.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
違憲還是違憲維護憲法還是違反憲法應讀起來是一樣的違憲還是違憲但是結果大不同違憲還是違反憲法由我們司法法制委員會藍白6加1七位立委來決定合理嗎社會不需要對話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
21620.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
21635.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
不需要聽到這麼多法界專業界期期以為不可的討論嗎這就是我今天一直在跟吳宗憲召委請求的過去憲法訴訟法從立法到他第一次的修正都歷經了 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
21636.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
21641.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
公聽會的程序而現在聽到法界很多不同的聲音為什麼該開公聽會再來討論法案有這麼困難如果不管那多元的意見只有七位藍白立委在這裡right here right now在司法法制委員會就決定了憲法訴訟法用法定原額來取代現有原額他未來的評議的決定要三分之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
21666.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
21689.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
只有七位藍白立委來決定這樣合理嗎?下一頁我們來看看早上我們論述的美國最高法院大法官是八位加上一位首席大法官共九位他們的規定跟台灣一樣三分之二參與評議二分之一同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
21690.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
21694.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
美國是9位大法官,台灣有15位喔!同樣的門檻,三分之二參與評議,二分之一同意沒有危及憲政,在美國沒有像台灣的國民黨民眾黨在說的人數太少了,這是少數觀點! |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
21707.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
21718.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
美國沒有發生這樣的憲政爭議我以2015年美國的同婚法案為例最高法院大法官以5比4的投票結果就以那關鍵的一票認同美國同婚正是合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
21724.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
21738.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
美國的人口是台灣的14倍啊美國的大法官人數遠低於台灣憲法法庭的人數在美國沒有藍白立委這樣說少數觀點少數決定不合理所以要修要來癱瘓憲法法庭美國不會下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
21743.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
21769.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
德國大法官聯邦憲法德國的法院大法官有16名他還分兩個議院依據大法官的專業屬性他分為兩庭同樣兩庭16位除以二簡單的數學問題一庭是八個大法官八位大法官裡頭三分之二參與評議二分之一同意跟台灣的門檻都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
21770.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
21774.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
原比台灣人數低可是沒有人會去挑戰大法官的專業沒有人去挑戰他們是不是政黨的好朋友影響了他們的憲政判斷認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
21789.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
21801.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
德國的人口是臺灣的3.6倍他們的大法官人數一停只有8位就可以參與審理沒有人說德國的大法官會危及憲政 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
21802.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
21819.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
來回來我前頭所以民間已經在串聯了反對二修憲法訴訟法要求先進行大法官人事同意權再來討論憲法訴訟法為什麼民間的聲音藍白的委員不聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
21820.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
21836.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
把這些學者專家民團的主張帶到立法院司法法制委員會的公聽會一起來討論為什麼害怕。下一頁律師也發動了聯署先審人事案撤回限訴法 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
21838.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
21860.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
律師界法律專業界其實以為不可的為什麼藍白就是要為修而修為快而快連個公聽會都害怕都阻擋所以大家一直說翁曉玲羅志強都說大法官決定的人數數額太少了會有單一觀點會少數來主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
21862.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
21885.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那麼就讓大法官人事同意權趕快行使補回15位如果不行使人事同意權只剩下8位當然人數就更可能是單一觀點更可能是少數主導所以更需要趕快補齊大法官15名的員額同樣的為了避免單一觀點為了避免少數主導為了避免藍白的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
21889.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
21894.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
強悍的在這裡強行通過就讓多元的觀點進到法制委員會先召開公聽會再討論修法下一頁數字在這裡數字會說話憲法法庭新制之後到現在112年98%是人民的申請案救治的時候同樣110年同一年有95%都是人民的申請案如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
21918.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
21944.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
修法癱瘓了憲法法庭不合理的提高他的評議決定的門檻其實是人民的申請釋憲案被剝奪了政黨利益大於國家利益嗎藍白是這樣幹這樣搞的嗎在下一頁重中之重在這裡藍白所幻想的極端案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
21946.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
21963.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
並不存在過去不存在數十年來不存在我以憲法訴訟法2019完成新制所宣判48件大法官的裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
21964.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
21985.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
四十八案裡頭有四十七案參與審議的大法官都高於十位十位的二分之一的議決是至少要六位所以沒有兩三位少數觀點就來解釋憲法的這種極端案例哪裡有存在過沒有任何一個案例為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
21986.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
22009.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
王曉玲羅志強一直在說兩三個大法官就可以來操憲法的生死案例在哪裡過去沒有發生過48個宣判的大法官的釋憲案裡頭37案都是15名大法官全員參與換言之全員參與15位他的二分之一要過關是8位沒有兩位三位這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
22014.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
22032.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
另外因為有10個案子是大法官要迴避有11個案子迴避制度也是立委倡議的相關的案子就要迴避所以把事實說清楚講明白並沒有兩三個大法官就可以來左右憲法解釋的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
22034.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
22054.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
極端的怪異的所謂少數觀點的並不存在從過去到現在都沒有但是唯一有可能的在哪裡下一頁就是現在如果在野黨不行使大法官的人事同意權放任這七個大法官的缺額在那裡前提是 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
22058.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
22079.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
藍白已經整個歸頭的想好好不行使同意權讓大法官只剩下八位八位如果要扣除部分案件需要迴避那確實有可能三分之二平易二分之一可能會有進入一種一個案子也許五位就會一決 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
22080.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
22097.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
但這個前提是藍白拒絕審查大法官同意權藍白拒絕補足七位大法官前提在這裡如果極端案例會存在就是藍白的政治的軌跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
22099.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
22109.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
極端案例會發生只有藍白這種包藏禍心拒絕行使人事同意權也強行來修過憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
22111.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
22133.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
所以我今天在這裡再一次的說我非常遺憾我們的主張就是先審同意權補足大法官的缺額如果您對於現在送上來的七位名單有不同意的沒有關係透過審查專業對話直求對決你可以投下你的反對票 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
22135.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
22152.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
可以再提名找出你們認為更優秀更適任的人都可以但前提是如果國會連進入大法官人事同意權都不行使然後該做的事不做現在是搶修急修憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
22154.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
22173.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
要閹割大法官架空大法官癱瘓憲法法庭這才是臺灣最大的憲政危機這是臺灣憲政法治國家最根本的一個超級核子炸彈翁曉玲委員你要按一下這個發射鍵嗎謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請洪孟凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
22188.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
22213.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我以為今天是質詢怎麼變成國事論壇一個人講那麼久來我們請副秘書長麻煩副秘書長委員好副秘書長你好其實聽到現在我想對於在野黨委員提出來的一個訴求或者是我們執政黨這邊的一個護航大概重點在於是什麼就希望我們現行的制度能夠更加的完善或完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
22215.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
22241.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
尤其是這個我們在講不管是翁曉玲委員的這個版本三分之二或二分之一他其實也沒有變動那只是法定原額跟現有原額的一個狀況在把它做明定那我想請教一下在國際上今天很多的委員都有提到各國民主國家的一個案例美國法定人員他最少九位大法官但是要有六位大法官才能參加會議進行案件的審查是嗎是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
22246.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
22267.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
韓國法定原額韓國憲法法院九名大法官但至少要有七名大法官才能審查案件並且六名大法官同意才能作出判決是嗎?是嗎?可以回答大聲一點法國憲法委員會也有九名的成員但是至少要有七名的法定委員才能夠進行審查是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
22270.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
22288.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
美國法國韓國甚至德國剛剛講說即便他的憲法法庭有分兩個庭每個庭各八名大法官但是至少要有六名大法官才能進行審查是嗎是所以世界民主國家裡面剛剛我提到的美國德國韓國法國 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
22292.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
22292.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
議員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
22309.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
22322.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
無法充分考量各種專業角度跟見解而破壞司法公信力故非無見但是可能會有自愛難行現實上自愛難行之處那其中你就有提到了就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
22324.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
22348.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
如果大法官提名任命其成懸缺未提名足夠的人選或是立法院未行使同意權的話那可能導致大法官在任的人數低於十位就沒有辦法達到所謂法定原額三分之二也因此就沒辦法開會 對不對所以這就分兩個層面嘛第一大法官提名過來之後立法院要無條件接受嗎有沒有審查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
22352.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
22373.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
立法院有審查權嗎?畢竟我們有審查完之後我們還要有過半數的同意才能夠讓大法官來上任嘛所以不是說總統一提名完之後大法官就任命嘛那如果說是這樣的話要經過57位立法委員的投票通過這樣子難道沒有任何的民意基礎嗎?這難道沒有任何的一個民意審查嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
22374.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
22398.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
有民意審查只是說要讓那個大法官能夠順利的去執行但是我回到第一個命題啊大法官提名進來之後立法院要無條件接受嗎如果說今天提名的人選確實不符合民眾的期待確實不符合我們對於專業以及司法的考量確實認為說他不適任大法官的話那立法委員把他否決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
22399.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
22426.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
真的沒有辦法讓他我們寧缺誤爛沒有辦法讓我睜一隻眼閉一隻眼我就真的投不下去因為這個人選就不符合我們過去傳統認為大法官應該要有的地位那這樣的話我們剩下的大法官可以用現行原額三分之二、二分之一就可以去決定其他的一個釋憲案件那不就跟我們現在剛剛提到的國際社會上面的民主國家背道而馳嗎?副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
22428.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
22432.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
這不是大是大非的問題嗎?哪一個國家?剛剛我提這幾個國家,哪一個國家是這樣子?來啦,副秘書長,看起來你講得很吱吱嗚嗚啊。說實在的話,本席賽上來之前都已經有做過功課跟資料。 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
22454.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
22481.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
如果說要在國會殿堂裡面為了是是而非的話來討論那我覺得這非常遺憾再來什麼時候我們這一屆大法官名單送進來立法院那個大法官名單送進來不是司法院的執掌所以不是司法是總統府抱歉抱歉好但是大法官送人事案到9月20號進入到立法院排入了全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
22482.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
22509.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那我想請教就您的理解跟瞭解跟認知目前有任何一個黨團提出說希望院長召集協商趕快來安排正式發函有嗎?目前是沒有看到啊院長這邊沒有接收到正式發函有任何一個黨團要求說我們大法官來做什麼時候來排委員會來做審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
22511.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
22531.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
這不是打假球嗎一方面講說拜託趕快審人事趕快審一方面就沒有黨團發函啊你沒有黨團發函我們要怎麼樣拜託院長趕快召集消息宣傳來決定時間考試委員有民眾黨團但其他的人事案並沒有啊再者什麼叫打假球你知道嗎副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
22532.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
22560.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我要跟你說明一下立法院在打假球稀奇古怪的事情非常多而且睜眼說瞎話不打草稿沒有關係啊NCC人事同意權你有沒有聽過在媒體上面聽過有聽過嘛那個時候也講啊說NCC人事同意權7月31號如果說沒有過的話可能導致iPhone買不到那現在iPhone已經順利上市了而到目前為止立法院已經開議我們第二個會期已經開議了三個多禮拜四個禮拜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
22561.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
22589.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
NCC人事同意權審查是排在交通委員會那到目前為止交通委員會在這個禮拜已經是第四個禮拜了民進黨的召委排了兩個禮拜國民黨的召委排了兩個禮拜到目前為止六次禮拜一禮拜三禮拜四的交通委員會你知道NCC人事的委員啊審查排在哪一天嗎不了解我跟你報告一下沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
22591.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
22612.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
民進黨當召委六次交通委員會 一次都沒有牌啊那結果你告訴我們說NCC委員很重要我們也想審查啊 我們也想要直球對決啊 我們也想要把NCC委員來啊但重點是執政黨連牌都沒有牌 結果你跟我們講說人事很重要這種叫做打假球啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
22612.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
22632.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
所以副秘書長我這邊特別跟您說明一下也感謝你今天過來也出具司法院的報告但是能夠把法修得更完整我們一起努力讓未來憲政不至於有任何的這種憲政的一個危機好不好感謝謝謝宏委員謝謝委員現在我們請鄭正前委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
22634.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
22661.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
鄭正前委員鄭正前委員馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員沈伯陽委員好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
22671.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
22696.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
謝謝主席 那有請這個副秘書長麻煩副秘委員好副秘書長好 因為我不是本委 所以這只有四分鐘 所以我快速問一下就是說因為剛剛講了那麼久 那你剛剛有些地方可能沒有辦法回答到第一個就是民意基礎 那我想問一下就是說這個副秘書長我們的總統是不是民選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
22698.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
22699.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
總統如果是民選的,那總統有沒有民意基礎? |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
22705.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
22727.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
當然民選當然有民意基礎對所以呢我覺得這個今天在討論的事情有點奇怪就是說呢講到好像只有某一區譬如說是大安區的選民才有民意基礎羅志強才有民意基礎其他人都沒有民意基礎那如果是今天沒有投給他的人也不算民意基礎這個論理其實非常的奇怪但我這邊我還是要再提醒一下就是說如果我們按照剛剛他們這樣的一個說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
22729.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
22745.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
今天大法官今天被總統提名之後他有一定的這個民意基礎的人去提名他然後由立法院大家的投下的同意票也有一定的民意基礎變成了大法官那問題是大法官最後在做決定的時候是根據他的專業還是根據民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
22748.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
22764.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
當然我想大法官在做成決議的時候當然是以他對憲法以他的專業對憲法的本質的這個認知去那不會說全部說以那個因為民意的多數少數去做決議的不是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
22765.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
22782.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
我們今天其實不是只有大法官這樣我們法官在判案的時候也都是根據法律的原理原則在判案如果我們要講究這一些民意基礎的話是不是以後我們法官在宣判的時候都可以請羅志祥委員在旁邊審核一下太好了我肯定這一個判決然後再把判決判出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
22784.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
22810.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
而且我們在選立法委員的時候立法委員的確有民意基礎有一個選區多數的選民投給他但投給他也是因為他具備一定的專業所以他在用他的專業在國會殿堂上面去決定大法官的人是應該如何所以譬如說像今天吳宗憲委員在這個質詢的時候他至少他就是根據我認為憲判的哪一個字號我認為大法官這邊的決定我不太認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
22810.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
22837.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
但這個就是他用他的專業去看說那我認不認同這個大法官的人選或者說這個未來的方向我覺得這才是一個正常的討論所以因為剛剛可能都沒有什麼時間回答但我覺得要把它導回來一下那再來我想再問一下就是因為其實剛剛不同的委員都會提到各國的立法例那我早上在程序發言有很快的提過但是可能沒有太多的時間講細節就今天不管是美國、德國或者日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
22838.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
22857.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
請問他們大法官生成的方式跟我們台灣一樣嗎?這個大法官生成的方式可能每個國家不一樣像德國的話可能不太一樣吧但是我沒有做去這方面的調查像以美國來講美國他有一定的這個終身制 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
22858.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
22872.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
日本也很類似但日本有一個年齡的限制卡在那邊他有一個有點像我們罷免的一個制度但他其實沒有真正被使用過所以他們這種在我們今天假設剛剛我們人數如果今天不夠的狀況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
22873.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
22900.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
然後呢到最後只因為這一次的修法都做只剩少數的大法官這件事情是台灣蠻特有的一個現象那剛剛卻把這個特有的現象當作是一個通例來討論剛剛有一個表格剛剛羅志強委員想給你回答但我看你剛剛沒什麼機會回答就是有多少人迴避迴避了之後有幾個人同意等等之類的這個表格先天性就有一個問題就是他已經預設了我們一開始就已經否決了接下來的大法官人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
22901.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
22918.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
所以如果說我們已經接受了這樣的一個事實前提,回不回避這件事情呢,它雖然是法定事由,但是在每一個個案是不同的,它是一個事實。而今天呢,我們原而照怎麼規定,這是一個法定。把事實跟法定混在一起,這其實不只是數學的問題,它其實是一個邏輯的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
22920.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
22920.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
謝謝委員 下一位我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
22949.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
22970.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
鄭天才委員發言主席各位委員有請副秘書長副秘書長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
22976.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
22994.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
今天討論憲法訴訟法因為憲法職責是解釋憲法所以這個人數非常非常重要我們看人民要修憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
22996.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
23022.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
我們看中華民國憲法徵修條文第十二條憲法的修改西京立法院立法委員四分之一的提議四分之三的出席還要出席為四分之三的決議四分之三喔這比例很高而且還要經過人民的投票復檢對不對副部長對不對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
23026.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
23049.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
一個憲法的制定修正都是經過人民而目前的一個現況是怎麼樣呢我們的大法官不尊重人民的決議不重視人民的決議為什麼這樣說呢我就舉這個111年憲判制第17號 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
23054.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
23081.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
這個憲法制第17號就是針對平埔族群的認定他認為是嚴族民族聯合國嚴族民族權利宣言第33條規定嚴族民族有權按照其習俗及傳統決定自己的身份或歸屬憲法徵修條文第10條第12項規定國家應依民族意願保障嚴族民族之地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
23083.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
23110.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
原住民族基本法也規定應尊重原住民族的在制定法律或實施司法程序的時候憲法判決也是實施憲法的訴訟也沒有去徵詢原住民族的意見我們看最重要的就是這個憲法憲法當初中華民國憲法在修憲的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
23111.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
23134.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
民國八十一年國民大會第二次修憲憲法徵修條文第十八條第六項對於自由地區的三包的潛意的規範當時的國大代表吳清貴還有翁文德提出要把平埔族納入到三包裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
23138.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
23163.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
經過國民大會四分之三的結議沒有納入啊!沒有納入啊!這是人民的意見啊!民意啊!民國83年第二次民國83年第三次修憲的時候將三包證明為原住民當時國大代表吳清貴等65人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
23164.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
23191.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
要把平埔族納入到這個嚴肅民族經過立法國民大會四分之三的人民的結議四分之三的國大代表代表全國的人民排除沒有納入結果呢結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
23195.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
23217.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
幾位大法官就決定了就決定如果我們看這個歷史我們看這個歷史平埔族在清朝到日治時期 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
23218.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
23247.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
生番、熟番生番、熟番是不同的從清朝到日治時期到中華民國政府都是分開的現在我們有很多台灣的人閩南人他不承認他是閩南人他不承認他是漢族也不過是幾十年而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
23248.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
23276.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
我們是從清朝開始就分開的從法律來看清朝的法律大清立立民定民業介入深藩地次同出道入關塞從日本也是一樣所以這個部分我要的是說憲法訴訟法當然這個人數很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
23277.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
23293.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
不然少數人去決定的就如同憲法明定的原住民主變成少數的大法官去做決定這個就是用這個例子來去告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
23294.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
23318.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
這個是非常非常重要的一個條文以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員好那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆請相關機關就儘速交給個別委員或本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
23319.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
23325.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
委員副坤祺所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報請相關機關以書面回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
24798.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
24810.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
24819.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
24829.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
為了有利於討論,待會審查法案的時候,就請列席機關代表移到主席台正前方首長席的位置就座。請宣讀條文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
24832.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
24855.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
憲法訴訟法委員翁曉玲等17人提案第四條第一項及第二項未修正徵定第三項本法所稱大法官現有總額細指憲法徵修條文第五條所定大法官人數委員翁曉玲等16人提案第九十五條本法修正條文施行日期自公佈日期施行宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
24859.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
24887.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
條文已經宣讀完畢,現在進行討論,那請問一下要不要進行大體討論?當然要好,那我們現在就進行大體討論那是不是請大家來主席台做發言的登記那我們一樣跟早上一樣,我們就是第一輪登記請大家發言一次然後沒有人要發言或結束之後我們再做第二輪的登記我們接下來我們就這麼做,這樣比較不會過於混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
24889.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
24897.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
因為有委員希望要就大體的部分,大體討論,發表意見,所以我們現在進行宣告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
24913.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
24922.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
每位委員大體討論的時間是3分鐘需要討論的委員麻煩到主題台前面登記在場的其他委員有沒有意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
24940.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
24950.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
沒有的話我們就延長到五分鐘,就是中召會有提出來希望延長嘛,那大家如果沒有意見我們就延長到五分鐘,謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
24964.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
24990.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
總統,我跟您建議,事實上我們六個這樣討論,它沒意思啦。你們就要過,因為你們人傳得久了,這樣也有意思。不是,你這樣主持讓我感覺你很心虛啦,我跟你們很好的,我不跟你吐槽的。你就一直人照,你就要休息,這個意識運作我給你尊重。就是說我的意思是說,今天這個案子要慎重。 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
24991.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
24994.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
25021.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
25022.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
那這樣我還沒有機會下週排公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
25049.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
25071.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
你這樣做我們真的不曉得下周排公聽會因為那個根據我的意思就是說你吳宗憲的個性吼你也算有法學素養的人吶這麼重大爭議的案件你不敢說開公聽會不好你不敢嘛對不對啊你只敢借錢給撒給宗家賓而已啊你要你自己去啊你發一個今天出來之後要去什麼公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
25076.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
25094.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
你再休息個半個小時好好考慮一下啦等到你們人來比較多了啊那個才叫暴力那看起來才會夠美啊才是美學啊對不對好不好我們一見啊看大家如果想繼續休息我們就在因為顯然的我還有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
25097.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
25102.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
大體討論大體討論也不一定要登記啦舉手就可以啦好不好舉手啦然後在座位上講啦你坐下去你會很辛苦的啦心虛人就會很累你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
25126.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
25132.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
主席我是這樣建議就是說因為我們也這幾個人大家都很熟那因為我在其他委員會我們開會呢其實這個排色方法齁其實有時候我們在其他委員會討論什麼都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
25160.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
25178.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
我一個建議啦就不要折衝啦然後也不影響到大體討論的程序就是因為剛剛鍾少偉是希望說其實在座位上面舉手嘛那如果這樣的話就是不登記發言好不好我想說我們就到那個強哥這邊可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
25180.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
25181.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
主席我是這樣請各位委員我們再來討論看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
25199.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
25212.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
其實整個提案裡面你說憲法訴訟法不管是第四條或者第九十五條我們今天早上大家都有看到你如果從歷史嚴格去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
25214.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
25233.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
這個在1948年以前叫大法官會議的時候大法官會議規則裡面當初12條是二分之一出席二分之一決議也就是說大法官會議的時候應該有大法官總額過半數的出席出席的大法官過半數的同意才可以去做決議這個是1948年那到了1952年 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
25238.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
25256.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
去修正了大法公會議的規則裡面他就改變了他就變成三分之二出席二分之一決議就本來是二分之一二分之一那就變成了三分之二出席二分之一決議可是到了1958年的時候那個好玩 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
25257.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
25268.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
大法官的眼睛長得不夠亮,他做出了四至第七十六號的解釋,他就去講說國大、監察院、民意機關,立法院就避免了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
25278.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
25278.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
25308.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
25309.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
憲法訴訟法第十二條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
25332.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
25361.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
這個是浮動的所以廳長你也很清楚這過去的一路來都大法官大法官會議他的案件審理的一個規則裡面那到底是要多少出席多少人才可以做成一個決議這個本身它是一個浮動那以現在來看的話這個節骨眼我一直認為說期期以為不可啦期期以為不可啦就算你硬要的話硬要 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
25363.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
25366.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人發言委員翁曉玲等16人發言委員翁曉玲等16人發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
25391.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
25417.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
我怎麼不在插你什麼洞這個時候就是法律人你到底有沒有哪個堅持公聽難道不合理嗎我就不相信敢你吳宗憲敢從你的嘴巴裡面講出來說這種重大的一個修法裡面吳宗憲拒絕開公聽會你敢嗎你如果敢以為我都會笑你我就笑你是偽君子我聽你開公聽會我聽你 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
25420.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
25426.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
我一定報一百天理這個時候才是要顯現阿不然你跟其他人這沒什麼基準的會有什麼差別你常常要以說你是一個法律人你是一個檢察官自居那碰到這種重大案件的時候你龜縮了講的都不好聽啦我說實在話啦阿但是喔真的是不要忘記啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
25442.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
25468.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
憲法法庭它本身它的功能是在幹什麼?憲法法庭真正能夠為政府機關去做出服務的那是少之又少又少又少又少啦真正憲法法庭的一個功能從過去國民黨威權統治到現在它做出來的判決也不會去對人民更加不利益 不是它是要另外提供一個人民的救濟的一個管道否則我就講過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
25470.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
25491.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
大家都很清楚啦,三審定言以後本來就已經結束啦那為什麼人民覺得不服,法院判得不好,那個法律是違憲的我要來跟你大法官,跟你這些憲法法庭的大法官,我要跟你們告狀然後告到最後,當然有些不符合就已經排除掉啦可是呢,常常有一些會符合,否則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
25493.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
25513.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
我們整個法律的設計三極三整就定院啊但是申請大法官會議解釋的時候有些有良知的法官認為說這個立法院喔沒水準喔這個立法院定出來的立法院只會選舉而已喔立法院定出來的人有些對法律的認知或者說立這個法太過於情緒 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
25514.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
25538.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
或者有黨派之爭所以這個法很有可能是違背憲法的我今天就舉了好幾個啊就是說你窮盡一切管道你都沒有辦法得到法律救濟的時候怎麼辦還好我來申請看看大法官不然你也救命一下不然請一個開除你之後這樣喝一點小酒之後警察看到你逼過來抽血強制驗血大法官後來說不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
25542.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
25563.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
這個不行 立法院定這個法律是不對的 限期修法我們遵照啦 我們遵照啦那我另外提的案子是跨國的婚姻的 如果異國之間的一個監護權的時候你怎麼辦法院判下來啦 欸 假設謝龍介是阿兜啊 他要帶回他阿兜那一國啊欸 小孩子嘩嘩叫啊 他不想跟謝龍介啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
25569.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
25571.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
這幾年來我們對憲法法庭會給他拍手的原因就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
25590.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
25607.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
25609.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
25625.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
你說再審要把一個訴訟三審定認程序再開多困難啊要形成一個再審的一個室友大法官跟你說我給你也不是大家都有的那你如果說你再把他限縮到三分之二的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
25626.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
25653.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
我是覺得會衝擊到啦那我也不敢說我莊惠雄講的是對啊至少我天違啊天違啊曾經幹了滿場的一段律師的這樣的一個我自己的一個感觸碰到這樣專業的一個修法外界這樣就是說啊不然你也聽我們的意見看看他有涉及到整個制度這麼嚴重的一個變革就憑我們幾個人就是趕快給他過去我早上也講 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
25654.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
25662.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
我是說翁曉玲委員他講的讓更專業的更多元的我不能講他不對我是講說這個我產生的衝擊你怎麼辦不應該聽聽外界的意見嗎不應該嗎否則否則我剛就提過了這個整個大法官或者憲法法庭你本身整個議事議會規則裡面你如何你要幾趴的人去出席多少人才可以評決然後才可以做成決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
25683.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
25683.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
議員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
25714.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
25729.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我們的想法就是我管你那麼多,這樣好嗎?任何大法官會議或者憲法法庭所做出來的解釋,到現在我們看到的都不是在拘束人民,不是! |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
25730.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
25757.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
多數都是在拘束各個機關在限縮各個機關他本身的權力的一個運作那這是好事啊這代表我們社會在進步了我們社會在進步了那我們現在又要去走回頭路那要走回頭路可不可以可以啊路隨便人家走的啊你可以走忠孝東路你可以今天可以去走到那個青島東路愛走哪一條是可以哪一條可是我們是立法院我們路不能亂走欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
25759.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
25770.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
我們今天要走回頭路 說理 那我們幾個人只有我們幾個對話 因爲變爲野蛙啦 我變人也不會接受啦 搞不好就變標管啦 這樣通嗎 那讓外界 讓那些法學界的大佬 讓律師界 或者讓你司法界你的同事 或者讓我過去 你們再吵我們再爺 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
25787.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
25814.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
讓大家齊聚一堂讓他們有那個機會來對話說到底是要把它做提升上來還是要降低我不敢有定見但是我覺得今天這樣子的話可能會比較不好以上好不好等一下我再第二輪請問一下有早上他們有拿來然後你離開啦有哪一位有要發言嗎那個翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
25817.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
25822.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
翁委員要升委員還是中委員?升委員麻煩翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
25829.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
25829.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
首先, |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
25857.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
25873.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
這一次的大法官卸任七位可能在短短的一兩個月或兩三個月之間不知道有沒有可能順利的完成大法官同意權的行使但是很明顯的確實我們就會有缺位的情況那麼這個大法官的出缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
25881.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
25899.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
並不是少數一兩位或兩三位而是一下子出缺了七位那麼也就是剩下了八位的大法官而在我們現在的制度裡面是三分之二的出席就可以開會但是如果說是從我們整個憲法法庭制度設計來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
25903.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
25910.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
他基本上是要求最好就是大家全員到一起15人一起開會那麼如果說不得已有些人請假或是出國等等的話那至少也要三分之二的出席也就是15人當中有10個人出席開會可是在我們現在即將要面臨到可能有只剩下8位的大法官那這明顯就已經違反了現在這個大法官裡面至少做出席做決議至少要過半數嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
25932.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
25935.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
那你沒有過半數的情況之下做成的憲法法院的裁判人民會信服嗎?會有公信力嗎?我們一再強調大法官基本上也要求各級法院的法官在審理重要像死刑的這樣的一個案件的時候都要採取最嚴格最嚴謹的方式去審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
25956.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
25983.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
但為什麼大法官自己在做憲法裁判的時候那麼卻不重視程序正義這就是程序正義你要有多數的大法官能夠出席開會他才能夠真的反映多元的民意的觀點那麼做出來的這個裁判那經過彼此互相充分的討論之後那才不會有這個太多的一些問題那更何況 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
25986.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
25992.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
我們也看到這一批的大法官就是現在的大法官他們過去做了一些判決其實也引起社會嘩然還不只是最近看到的死刑有條件核憲設了很多重重的門檻的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
26006.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
26025 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
所以當大家已經對於現在的大法官失去信心也不認為他們會公正的裁判的時候這時候再讓他們正下這幾位大法官那麼去做裁判其實對他們來講也不公平更何況我們知道其實在其他國家不管像是韓國法國 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
26028.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
26038.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
還有哥斯達黎加、捷克等這些國家日本他們對於這個最高的憲法裁判機構就是我們這邊講的憲法法院或是法國的憲法委員會都有明定最少的開會人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
26046.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
26067.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
韓國人口數應該比我們多他們大概只有九位大法官那明文規定要有六位的大法官才可以開會那麼對於宣告重要的如果說對於像是宣告法律違憲的重要的憲法判決也都要有六位以上的同意在這樣子的高門檻更嚴謹的 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
26072.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
26076.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
這樣的一個裁判的制度我覺得當然是值得我們台灣學習啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
26077.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
26102.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
更何況我們從法制史的角度來看過去是要求四分之三的大法官出席然後三分之二的大法官這個決議那麼後來雖然說降低了但是呢從大法官審理案件法一直到現在的憲法訴訟法把同一門檻降的只有剩下這個現有總額的二分之一通過其實在很多的法學在不同的論文裡面其實都有討論認為這樣的一個制度是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
26106.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
26125.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
我們基本上是給大法官過大的權限來對抗來反對否決國會的多數民意所通過的法律這樣子一個制度其實在其他國家不見得認為這是一個好的制度所以我們今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
26126.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
26136.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
之所以要提出這樣的修法案無疑是希望能夠撥亂反正我們希望我們整個的憲法的訴訟制度能夠更加健全在整個憲法法庭從它的組成、開會、出席到審議、評判等等的它都能夠更加的嚴謹經過更多元大家的不同的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
26155.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
26172.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
那麼做出的憲法判決才具有公信力才能夠說服一般的老百姓才能夠令人信服那我覺得這是一個很基本的一個觀念所以呢我今天我提這個法案坦白說真的我沒有想到大家會認為說我是在對付大法官其實並不是而是我們從這一次的提名的這個情況還有看到大法官有一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
26182.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
26190.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
幾乎一半的這個出缺發現了這法律漏洞發現這法律漏洞當然我們就必須要提法提修法來填補這樣子的法律漏洞所以並不是說是我們要什麼癱瘓憲法法庭我們讓整個憲法的釋憲權更加健全不是更好嗎對人民來講他如果說未來他的案子不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
26207.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
26224.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
或是他申請事先案即便受理了審查了但是呢也被大法官認為說是無理由不回那麼至少還是在一個多元法官參與討論的這個基礎上所做的憲法的裁判大家比較不會有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
26226.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
26253.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
那我想這個部分我們基本上是在防衛杜建就是看到這個問題我們提出修法我們當然不希望這極端的例子發生但是今天這個早上中午的時候我們羅委員其實也講了嘛這個法律的規定在那裡就不能夠不去思考萬一有極端的情形發生剩下的八位大法官如果說有五位或六位迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
26254.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
26259.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
的情況之下怎麼辦那真的是只有一個人他可能就做成決定了那你能夠說他違法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
26261.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
26285.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
當然不可能說它違法,因為我們法律的規定就在這邊啊對,那這是大家所願意看到的嗎對,法律的規定當然就是目的就是要防弊那去防止萬一有極端情形發生的時候那我們要怎麼去解決所以我覺得這是一個重要的議題那麼我們大家應該要正視今天完全不是跟這個什麼政治的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
26287.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
26294.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
26314.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
26333.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
我不會有人會這麼期待的啦所以回到我這次提這個修法案的初衷我真的是認為我們要健全我們的憲法法庭制度讓整個釋憲權更加的完善而不會落人口石以上謝謝好謝謝那我們請省委員發言剛剛不是省委對省委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
26344.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
26367.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
主席、各位同仁我們現在開始進入這個法案的大體討論那我還是要說今天如果這個法案按照我們提案的草案通過的話它就是實質上癱瘓憲法法庭這不是我說的這不是我審法會說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
26369.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
26396.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
這個是這個法案提出來之後說許多的法律界就提出這樣的質疑這個你現在google就知道了大家很多人就認為這個就是實質上要癱瘓憲法法庭的運作那我覺得這樣子的從這段時間以來我一直覺得說個案就是個案不要針對個案來惡搞我們政府的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
26397.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
26418.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
這個一直都我看到這一段時間以來國民黨提了很多案子都針對制度來做修改但是一問理由都說各案今天一整天國民黨的委員上來不管是誰在台上就說就談的就是你看這個對於實行的大法官會議解釋你看這個對於這個國會擴權案的這個暫時處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
26426.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
26449.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
這個我們在早上都一再論述就憲法訴訟的判決來講憲法訴訟就這些政府機關所提出的比例是憲法訴訟裡面比例非常低的更何況在這麼低的比例裡面你們又限縮在這幾個對這幾個個案的不滿那用各對各案的不滿來惡搞這個政府的制度我認為這個就是今天最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
26450.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
26479.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
好像就針對一個司法案件一個恐龍法官判決大家社會輿論化然結果你們就哈那既然有恐龍法官判這種案子我就修法我就把三級法院制度把它癱瘓了這個完全說不過去就像之前在討論原民會是不是改為無極職也是一樣出來講的理由全是說你看哪一個原民委員不適任結果你們他還在領薪水所以我們要把他改成無極職 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
26481.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
26506.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
個案是個案,制度是制度。不要為了個案來惡搞這個民主的制度,因為制度是長久的,不管誰執政。今天民進黨執政,可能幾年後馬上就國民黨就執政了。你這惡搞這個制度幹什麼?馬英九在執政的這八年,我們羅志強位高權重。那個時候馬英九在八年,我們民進黨有去改什麼制度嗎?沒有。而且那時候我們少數。 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
26507.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
26532.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
也都沒有提出要改什麼制度我們就在那個制度我們就在那個體制之下我們進行體制下面的國會抗爭那你現在都為了這些個案你要來修改這個制度今天我早上一再講這一條第四條的修改他一修改下去他就牽涉到所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
26533.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
26557.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
所有的第12條、第26條、第30條、第32條、第43條、第48條、第75條、第80條、第87條這全部的包括從回避的制度的設計、從延遲辯論、從到判決、到案件受理、到暫時處分的裁定、到這個彈劾的成立、到宣告政黨的解散、到統一解釋法律命令這一些全部通通受到影響所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
26562.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
26582.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
這個我還是要在這裡齁希望說這樣的事情好今天就算我什麼會講的你們聽不下去那我今天講的也不是我個人的主張啊我們也看到很多的學界很多的這些法學團體他們也提出這樣的質疑那當然你們也說啊也有很多學界贊成你們的說法好那我們就來開個公聽會吧我們就開個公聽會大家聽聽看哪一邊有道理嘛我們就來聽聽學界 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
26590.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
26595.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
實務界我們主席最愛強調的實務界實務界找來法學界大家社會團體大家共同來講因為這個憲法訴訟我一再講憲法訴訟政府所提出的憲法訴訟案只是佔非常非常比例非常非常小大部分95%以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
26615.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
26641.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
憲法訴訟案件都是攸關人民權益他就是憲法訴訟他就是人民權益的最後的救濟手段我們今天所做的不是癱瘓掉大法官的職能而已我們是剝奪了人民在這個人民權益的最後的救濟手段實際上我們做的這個修改一個憲法訴訟法的第四條他就是其實就是剝奪 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
26643.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
26649.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
人民權益救濟的最後手段這個絕對不可不慎吼那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
26651.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
26680.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
我是希望說今天看起來從主席剛才的動作雖然主席一再宣稱自己意識中立立了一個針截牌坊在那裡但是既然要立針截牌坊你樣子就要像針截牌坊不要立針截牌坊之後在那邊做一些針截牌坊所不容的事情從剛才說宣布休息我們就看就知道原來主席就是要等一下的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
26681.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
26681.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
26709.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
26737.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
這個看起來就是今天就擺出這樣但是我是覺得說這個是日文叫做最惡最糟糕最壞的選擇是國民黨最糟糕的選擇也是對人民權益最糟糕的結果還是我相信在座的這每一個都是我也相信大家不是沒有良知的大家是不是能夠懸崖勒馬我們開個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
26739.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
26765.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
開了公聽會之後不要在今天說一定要在今天強行表決通過了以上事情的對錯不是誰說的算好不好那你既然你有我就尊重不必你多說我的做法由我自己負責任那謝謝指教那我們下一位請鐘昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
26768.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
26796.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
謝謝主席啦其實我始終相信人性本善就像我相信主席絕對不是壞人本性也不惡啦所以我相信對對對對對所以雖然我沒有喝到咖啡但是我還是覺得主席在主持會議基本上是盡量的有說到就會做到但是剛剛我們發慧熊執政委員提到說要由羅委員要領銜要來提案要動議要停止討論就像過去國權獲選法案一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
26797.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
26804.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
當然現在不是實際啦因為現在現場人數顯然沒有這樣的優勢不過羅委員就不敢講啦因為羅委員常常說的跟做的不太一樣現在笑得很開心但是待會是不是動議就提出來了我也不能保證不過我是覺得啦剛剛我們這樣子討論一下把那個牌子拿掉讓討論的氣氛好一點大家可以看到彼此我覺得這是好的啦好的開始我們珍惜那個好的開始所以呢我很樂意的齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
26823.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
26824.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
我剛仔細聽了提案委員翁的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
26844.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
26861.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
我特別又對照了一下這是司法院他們的書面報告那這裡面有些是被引用的那我也願意再次的引用就在我們翁委員提案說明的按鈕當中他說他是希望我們能夠進行多數決的時候能夠涵蓋多元意見和觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
26863.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
26889.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
避免單一或少數觀點來主導其實這個話呢放在哪裡都接準在民主法治社會其實多數決我們要能夠涵蓋多人的意見和觀點避免單一或少數的觀點來主導那萬一無法充分考量各種專業角度和見解導致專業意見不足就會影響到什麼質量跟深度甚至造成公眾這個公信力對這個不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
26889.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
26902.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
大法官公信力的下降還是對立法院審查法案的下降我是覺得這中間這些話不管是放在對大法官對司法院的評論還是放在我們立法院對我們委員會審查法案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
26903.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
26910.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。． |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
26932.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
26943.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
所以司法院也寫了嘛,司法院現在就顧非無見啊,這個連司法院也認同我們提案委員這一段話所以我希望能夠更多人的觀點,更多的角度,這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
26945.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
26955.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
26964.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
26988.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
後面寫極端情形表示這是很少數的情況恐怕當然是個擔憂擔憂極端的情形當然我們在設置設計制度的時候一定要考量但是制度啊沒有辦法防範任何極端的情況出現那我推敲這會不會極端呢這個極端情況會不會出現呢我在借用我們羅志強委員今天的提到如果說要三位大法官假設是三位就要形成多數意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
26988.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
27009.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
表示大概是五個大法官來參加開會嘛因為目前是過半數嘛那你五個要三個好就能做成多數意見了那五個一個大法官的會憲法法庭只有五個大法官那按照迴避的說法那表示什麼有十五位有十位是迴避的那目前歷史上的最高紀錄的是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
27011.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
27012.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
立法院第十條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
27029.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
27057.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
在第十條我們的第二節的迴避的規定第九條他大概是寫大法官因自行迴避的情形第十條呢是寫當事人得向憲法法庭申請大法官迴避的情形那第十條是自行迴避第十條是申請迴避但是第十一條呢還有說大法官任有自行迴避的必要者得經其他大法官過半數同意迴避那今天我們早上講的那個唯一的一次例子有六位大法官齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
27058.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
27059.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
第11條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
27076.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
27091.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
假設這六位大法官他覺得要迴避九位叫做其他大法官那這其他人的九位呢也要有五位認為你們要迴避就構成迴避對不對那如果有五位認為不需要迴避那這六位要迴避也迴避不成那講到極端的狀況就剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
27092.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
27105.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
如果只有五位能夠參加會議有十位要迴避變成這十位可不可以迴避應不應該迴避由剩下的五位當中來決定而這五位只要三位說可以你們要迴避變成三位來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
27107.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
27129.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
我是說如果真的要推到極端這是非常極端的狀況啊也就是說我們舉出一個這樣非常極端的狀況15位大法官有10位要迴避而由剩下的5位當中的多數的3位來決定對你們應該自行迴避這個當然在制度上的設計不無可能可是現實上會出現這樣狀況嗎所以這裡就讓我很費解 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
27132.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
27149.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
有15位大法官有10位要迴避而另外5位當中有3位是認可的這個現實上要發生我覺得是可以討論但是比較有可能發生的就是什麼就是其實也是提案委員自己講的什麼時候會發生現在只剩8個大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
27152.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
27155.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
為什麼大法官你會認為他剩8個呢?大法官現在15個好好的啊,為什麼你認為他是8個? |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
27169.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
27184.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
就是因為七個當中十月底就到任請注意是到任而不任期屆滿而不是出缺不是缺位不是缺位出缺是說我們立法院定期改選嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
27184.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
27208.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
一百一十三個立法委員每四年就要出缺全部出缺一次不是我們會說每四年任期屆滿重新改選大法官請大家看憲法徵修條文我們在第五條的時候就是因為我個人有參與到修憲徵修條文這第五條的規定我非常的熟悉也了解他當時大法官會有這樣的意思就是任期的半半交錯制 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
27209.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
27236.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
在民國92年的那時候的總統提名而任命的四位大法官分成八人組跟七人組八人組的任期四年七人組的任期八年所以隔了四年之後就有八個任期屆滿要再提八個這是一個常態每隔四年就有七個大法官或八位大法官任期屆滿要重新提名辦理人事同意權的審查來任命所以大法官應該是15個都在位是常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
27239.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
27251.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
要出現說只有8個的情況下是很難去想像的那有人要預設他就會只有8個就是7人組的這個任期這次要屆滿任期的是7人組那剩下的8位因為有點斑斑任期交錯之餘有點被打亂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
27256.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
27258.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
．委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。． |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
27275.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
27284.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
那要出現到有十個迴避,剩下五個來決定的情況,幾乎是不太可能。所以呢,我才說第二個,我剛剛講的第一個建議是說,我們是不是可以來開個公聽會,兩邊大家都可以來討論,避免單一或少數觀點,涵蓋多元意見跟觀點,考量各種專業角度和見解。 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
27295.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
27321.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
不要讓大社會大眾對我們的公信力下降有所質疑這都是我們提案委員引致於他的內容那至於會不會有極端的狀況呢第三我要談的就是什麼就是我實在是不太能瞭解這個十二條的迴避制度要怎麼迴避因為目前憲法訴訟法第十二條大家看到這十二條怎麼寫他說這個大法官在迴避的時候他不記錄現有總額那不記錄現有總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
27326.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
27339.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
目前任何的迴避制度都不會記錄現有總額但是目前我們提案委員他在第四條他直接規定所謂的現有總額是憲法正規定的15人 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
27341.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
27349.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
憲法規定所規定15人15人這是不可能變動的修憲很難啊所以我們一般視為這15人的法定總和是一個固定的狀態是一個這個額數是固定的不會動的但是現額現有總和會浮動會浮動 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
27357.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
27367.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
因此才會因為現有種而浮動才有12條把迴避的從現有種而扣除這也是說我們看到了我們今天司法院這邊寫的第三頁他這裡說憲法訴訟法第12條護身舉語我試著來理解一下翁委員我們解究一下討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
27378.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
27395.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
他說目前你的修正草案就是第四條他是把12條之外再加再行定義限有總額但是如果把你的修正草案視為一般規定就是第四條以憲法的15人為一般規定那12條就是特別規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
27396.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
27417.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
那這法律見解我們主席法律專家那前面第四條是一般規定後面十二條是特別規定所以特別規定似乎就不在一般規定之下是這樣的意思嗎?我也不懂我真的是不懂所以我們也答應了翁委員我們跟他交流一下所以搞了半天到底迴避要不要記錄現有總額當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
27422.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
27443.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
那如果迴避不限有總額第12條根本不用寫啊為什麼因為我們所有的經過第四條的一般規定我們的憲法訴訟法當中所有的限有總額都是15人那既然都是15人是固定的是剛性的規定你有沒有迴避都不影響他的計算啊因為你後面的評議的額度這個決議的門檻決議的這個門檻通通都是因著你的限有總額這是個剛性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
27451.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
27452.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
27472.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
27494.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
那我今天也稍微提了一下以我自己做例子當年第九屆的時候當時的大法官審理案件法第五條是規定立法委員現有總而三分之一以上之申請才能夠提出呢 釋憲的申請三分之一三分之一的時候呢 抱歉應該莊委員在那吳委員也在那個時候國民黨有沒有提出釋憲 有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
27500.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
27521.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
可是人數不夠啊,所以呢就找了高金素美委員啊所以這一段的一個淹源從那時候簽到現在啊但是後來有沒有成立因為高金素美委員呢他當簽他並沒有參與表決啊所以在四格信上的審理呢就認為啊他並沒有因為行使職權而被記錄這三分之一的總額當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
27522.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
27539.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
所以當年這個總額的三分之一,現有總額的三分之一,立法委員現有總額的三分之一的規定是因著當時的大法官審理案件法第五條條項規定以至於當時的在野黨國民黨如果沒有高金素梅五黨籍的這一席是沒辦法提出事件申請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
27540.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
27569.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
因此本席接著在我們的憲法訴訟法在第十屆的時候我們憲法訴訟法第49條我們就把它改成了憲有總額四分之一以上民進黨不管在第九屆第十屆我們都是絕對過半大法官的人選蔡英文前總統要提名的人選基本上民進黨都同意就會通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
27570.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
27571.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
但是別忘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
27572.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
27598.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
蔡英文總統提名的大法官什麼時候才是全部的大法官我今天還做了一個表一直到多少年一直到一直到呢我們馬英九總統啊他在99年任命兩位100年任命四位104年任命四位這99年任命的這兩位最快到期他在什麼時候到期在107年 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
27600.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
27623.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
一百零七年2018年在第九屆的時候這兩位到齊了才換上蔡總統提名經過民進黨多數國會審查的另外到一百零八年2019年另外四位滿有提名的才有到齊蔡總統才有機會提名要到了一百零四年那四位要到什麼時候到一百一十二年 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
27625.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
27650.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
一百一十二年這八年的這四位呢到期屆滿了在第十屆的立法院才有立法院國會的多數的民進黨通過了蔡英文總統所提名的不要忘了在這十八年當中蔡英文總統上任之後的大法官一直有十位八位四位不等的大法官在這一個憲法法庭裡面從一百零七年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
27651.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
27671.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
通過了憲法訴訟法到了110年開始適用這段時間整個司法院的大法官的組成沒有所謂的清一色如果你們認為哪個總統提名的就是那個總統的政黨或者說哪一個國會多數所通過的就是那個政黨的大法官來標示他的顏色我要告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
27672.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
27700.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
到2021年之前為止一百一十年之前為止並沒有所謂的青一色的大法官所謂的綠的或藍的所以基本上我們都是希望說因著我們大法官他在審理案件的時候憲法訴訟關係著人民的權益我們希望能夠來持續的來審理所以才會有雖然民進黨的多數也支持了本席那時候的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
27701.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
27730.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
將立法委員要提出憲法訴訟的第49條降為總額的四分之一所以我們要知道並不因為你是多數你就要用多數去決定讓少數沒辦法參與相反的當我們是多數的時候當外國會多數的時候多數的一方還是要盡力的去保障少數可以參與包括憲法的四限申請包括立法的形成的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
27731.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
27757.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
這也是我們翁曉玲提案說明的國會的少數有義務去保障多元意見和觀點避免形成單一或少數觀點要考量各種專業的角度和見解這不是只是哪個黨哪個派的義務是每個民主國會當中每個政黨他應該遵循的一個民主的鐵律所以我在這裡舉這個例子我們就希望說現在呢看起來齁 綽綽吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
27761.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
27762.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
一、二、三、四、五 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
27777.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
27805.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
五位又要取決於我們召委啦如果召委我剛剛這樣的這個很希望再聽聽我們翁委員對於迴避的意見啦當然我希望在接下來議事審查我們是人性本善我相信你絕對不是壞人我們也希望今天的良好的互動讓我們的國會的論證能夠充分的容納包容各種多元的聲音我們不是要急於的馬上送出委員會停止討論表決然後送出委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
27806.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
27806.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
27823.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
27826.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
憲法訴訟法第十二條的迴避的規定會發生矛盾。我剛剛其實在詢答的時候已經也和副秘書長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
27846.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
27862.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
說明基本上不會我只有修一條憲法訴訟法第四條的規定那麼所以呢現在怎麼做在我修法之後一樣的也就是只要是符合法定事由的應迴避的大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
27862.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
27862.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
）立法院第11屆第12會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
27882.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
27891.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
這個跟之前的做法沒有兩樣對當然就像你剛剛講的就是如果出現極端情形確實就是因為有極端情形所以才更凸顯出憲法訴訟法即便我現在提案這樣修可是還不完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
27898.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
27923.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
未來的應該要仿照像是韓國法國的做法無論如何你就是一定要有至少6個人7個人才能夠開會當然這個還仔細去研究他們可能迴避的人數也會扣除在外這是一個例外的狀況但是不能說沒有可能發生那最重要的問題就在於說我們接下來如果說會有短暫的時間裡面都會出現有8位大法官的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
27924.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
27950.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
這不知道持續多久或者是說我們新審查這個大法官人選也許只同意通過一位兩位那如果通過兩位當然就正好符合我們現在講的15位大法官裡面三分之二出席10位就可以開會了但是如果出席一位通過一位九位基本上還是是不適合的所以呢這個部分基本上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
27951.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
27971.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
是在建立一個好的一個憲法訴訟審理的一個制度而不是說為了杯葛大法官人涉案而杯葛並不是如此所以我希望大家不要誤會我的意思我也是好人啊不是只有吳宗憲是好人我也是好人吧 莊委員你覺得我是不是好人 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
27972.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
27982.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
對我也是好人嘛對不對法律的界階本來就是擁有不同的意見討論啊不要每次都好像把我形容成像個巫婆一樣可是呢我基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
27984.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
28002.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
謝謝,如果是叫美麗的巫婆我還可以接受。對,對,不要是醜惡的巫婆。對,我想這就是我覺得有趣的地方,我們大家可以針對法律制度如何完善,然後有不同的討論嘛,意見不同的討論,你們今天基本上已經也反映了,就是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
28003.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
28003.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
議員吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
28028.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
28048.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
謝謝因為剛剛在朝野協商所以沒有來現在我非常珍惜可以大體討論的機會也希望這個剛剛看到在野黨團的同仁趕快去呼朋引伴趕快邀請其他為道場的委員來到場是不是我非常樂意大家一起是來參與討論而不是進行發動了表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
28052.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
28052.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
28066.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
28091.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
我們現在的立法院113個立法委員大家注意每一次在院會表決的時候主席的宣布是在場人數幾位然後贊成幾位反對幾位過半就通過那是在場人數如果依翁曉玲委員的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
28092.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
28094.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
司法及法制委員會． |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
28113.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
28132.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
本黨團的總召柯建民總召他因為腳傷今天真的沒有辦法來開會否則他願意非常樂意因為這是攸關臺灣憲政法制重要的修法但他因為沒有辦法來如果說依翁曉玲委員凡是在大法官的憲法法庭都要法定原額來取代現有原額 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
28136.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
28152.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
我覺得大家想看看這個合理性而且現在大法官最癥結的是沒有任何一個在可能大法官他出缺的時候有任何可以來這個叫什麼?地補嗎?這叫地補嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
28156.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
28156.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
我們該精進的制度是什麼?副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
28183.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
28190.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
各位好,謝謝委員垂詢。大概有一些國家的制度會,假設認滿了之後,雖然認滿,但是新繼任的沒有順利產生的話,會延長他的任期到繼任為止。那也有另外在任命站職的大法官。所以我們現在並沒有這樣的機制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
28204.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
28231.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
今天等一下如果在野黨的委員又要強行用表決那抱歉你們在場可能六位七位就要決定憲法訴訟法這麼重要的修法要往前邁進快轉的到下一關去如果我們要求大法官凡事要15位在場那我們今天六位七位就有這樣子的權力來決定憲法訴訟法的修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
28233.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
28261.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
我們也要來提出探討當初憲法訴訟法從2019修正還有當初在立的時候我去翻閱了過去在立法院所有的發言國民黨從來沒有就憲法法庭的組成及議決的門檻正式的提案表示過不同的意見當初在修憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
28263.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
28283.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
有召開過公聽會,我要強調這麼重要的法案都有公聽會讓社會各界來表達意見不管是在制定或是一休的時候都有公聽會的程序,現在要二休在野黨團主席卻不願意來表明我們應當進行公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
28285.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
28311.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
那我來翻閱過去在審議的過程國民黨團從來沒有對於憲法法庭的組成跟議決門檻提出任何不同的意見也就是現在的版本是當初大家都同意也認為合理可行的版本現在為什麼要修呢司馬昭之心路人皆知馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
28312.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
28341.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
從上會期國會擴權法案強行上路強行通過程序違憲實質違憲之後國民黨團再也黨團開始對憲法法庭對大法官看不順眼開始劍指大法官開始來關切憲法訴訟的制度現在再來擴大說他多麼的不合理用不存在的極端案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
28344.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
28359.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
來說來欺騙社會以後會有兩三個大法官就決定憲法的解釋今天從早上九點到現在我問了幾個小時七八個小時到底發生過哪一個極端案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
28360.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
28374.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
有兩三個大法官就決定了憲法的解釋沒有啊我反而可以拿出明確的數字2019年憲訴法上路之後採用新制有48個 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
28376.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
28389.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
裁判出來的憲法法庭的判決案例47個案子都有超過10位以上的大法官參與評議因為有迴避制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
28392.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
28420.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
而48個案當中有37個案是15名大法官全數參與評議哪裏有兩位三位大法官極端小數的意見就來決定釋憲案的內容呢我從早上問這個問題問了這麼久問了羅志強委員問了翁曉玲委員你們告訴我哪裏發生過這個極端案例你們說不出來嘛因為沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
28422.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
28448.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
唯一可能的就是你們繼續杯葛大法官的人事同意權讓七名大法官沒有辦法逮捕成功未來如果只剩八個大法官確實他的母數就變少了但是不要忘了我剛剛也說德國的憲法法庭分兩庭他的一庭就是八個人八個人是用台灣同樣的門檻三分之二參與評議二分之一就可以來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
28451.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
28472.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
德國有誰說他們是少數意見?在德國有誰去挑戰憲法法庭的法律專業呢?憲政的理念呢?所以為什麼當初在修這個法律這個法的時候國民黨團從來沒有提出門檻、緣和的意見?現在劍指要修法! |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
28474.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
28497.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
這完全就是布妞七要彎嘛完全就是一個對於國會擴權法案的釋憲結果對於大法官來進行報復、公結、盜授大法官的行為但是在野黨的委員也不要害怕國會擴權法案的釋憲這週五才要宣判沒有人知道釋憲的結果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
28498.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
28505.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
如果你們對於過去上會期自己推的國會扣除法案有信心沒有違憲那何懼之有呢?提高平易的、平決的門檻就是大開司法改革的倒車我想問一下副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
28520.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
28531.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
當初當初把它修為就是現在從三分之二修為二分之一議決的門檻是什麼時候基於什麼樣子的過程什麼樣子的討論來決定現在的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
28534.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
28561.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
公務員報告那是施改2017年施改國事會議的時候基於說原來的這個門檻導致很太過高很多的那個是事件案件沒有辦法去如期的符合人民的期待所以才要才改成說要求改為二分之一通過所以這個是施改國事會議大家的共識那施改國事會議當初是綜合的大法官過去73年事件經驗後獲制的結論吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
28564.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
28566.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
他們做出的分析你可以再進一步說嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
28569.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
28594.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
因為以前在三分之二那大法官在考決門檻三分之二的時候那麼導致很多的那個事先案這個贊成的也沒過三分之二反對也沒過三分之二那懸得非常的久有的案件也拖到非常的多年說了十幾年說了很久所以呢這是綜合過去73年的事先經驗夠獲製的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
28597.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
28621.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
司改國是會議跨黨派參與者所有的社會團體學者專家大家不分黨派或制的實務運作的結論嘛所以不要帶著有色眼鏡現在把大法官全部當作是某個政黨你們說的大法官是某某黨開的不需要這樣帶著有色眼鏡 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
28626.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
28640.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
行的正坐的直半夜就不怕鬼敲門不要提違憲的案子就不要害怕釋憲不害怕釋憲就不需要急著來修這種毀憲的憲法訴訟法我們民進黨團的呼籲跟訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
28647.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
28674.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
請主席既然您是盤案的委員我們還是尊重盤案委員我們從早呼籲到現在這麼多個社會團體提出來的聯署案包括法律界包括人權界包括司改界為什麼開一個公聽會有如此的困難這個問題我們今天在場這些幾位委員大家都 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
28676.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
28685.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
努力的表達我們的意見但我們沒有權利因此來阻卻更多元的社會的討論主席公聽會有這麼難嗎我也非常期待這麼重要的一個法律案如果在野黨的委員認為大法官十個人來決定就太扯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
28701.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
28730.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
那我們今天靠六位七位藍白的委員加起來的多數就要強行把這個法案推進到下一步我們怎麼要求別人就怎麼要求自己啊你們說的單一觀點你們說的少數意見來主導你們認為憲法法庭會這樣現在藍白兩黨正在此時此刻的司法法制委員會你們要遂行的不就是這樣子的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
28732.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
28759.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
所以拜託公聽會一點都不困難像個會期國會擴權法案在野黨的委員最喜歡公聽會凡事要求公聽會羅志強委員也好喜歡公聽會我們一起在公聽會來聆聽民間的聲音主席不要我說了一整天都把我當空氣公聽會有這麼難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
28762.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
28786.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
可不可以交開公聽會再來進行相關的審議條文雖然少但是牽涉的層面非常大我們要今天六位七位委員的表決就來推翻司改國是會議多年的討論嗎主席你是司法界的主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
28790.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
28790.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
委員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
28807.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
28808.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
這麼多的民間團體這麼多的團體這麼多的團體我在發言民間司法改革基金會人權公約施行監督聯盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
28822.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
28851.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
台灣勞工陣線公民監督國會聯盟台灣刑事辯護律師協會環境權保障基金會台灣人權促進會國際特赦組織台灣分會中華民國身心障礙聯盟等十餘個團體還有包括目前不斷的加入聯署的數十位律師加速的串聯要求先進行大法官的人事同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
28853.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
28855.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
在進行憲法訴訟法的修正的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
28858.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
28858.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
吳宗憲認為你們都是少數 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
28887.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
28891.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
一場公聽會兩場公聽會如果你認為這些小數團體對我們可以邀請多數的團體嗎?對他們的聲音對你可以邀請更多的人一起來討論你沒有公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
28911.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
28917.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
你預設了立場!你預設了立場!你預設了立場!吳宗憲、昭偉,您過去也來自於民間,您預設了立場!這麼多的團體,你可以邀請更多的團體終於拿出你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
28929.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
28932.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
吳宗憲召委我可以講幾句嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
28957.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
28981.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
我跟你們講齁如果這樣我們按照我們主持會你們都有那麼多意見那我就依照程序來其實我已經拿到很久了不是啦但是我一直讓你們好好的把他講完你們今天阿不要我跟你講中高委如果你講那個話他都沒什麼好談你又要說一直永遠我們討論很久了我跟你講我剛剛拿到那張補端是在那邊耐心的聽你們講完耐心的聽我們討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
28984.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
29006.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
謝謝您的耐心,我們討論法案不需要好好討論嗎?討論法案不需要惦記於您的耐心好嗎?等一下等一下等一下等一下,你們可以等一下啦,你先不要念你先不要念,召委,剛剛我就舉手了喔我剛剛舉手,我很有風度,因為提案人翁曉玲委員他要發言我就讓他發言喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
29009.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
29010.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
我今天拿到提案提議我就已經放在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
29029.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
29036.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
我都沒有直接要提出來,是因為我希望大家好好的講,但是因為你人不夠,我跟你講,吳東憲你這樣講我就看不起你囉,我就幫你還原喔,你是因為人不夠,你把他放起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
29045.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
29048.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
我剛剛有沒有舉手?你有沒有做才事?你出發你剛才事說現在已經要停止討論的送到主席台上來了我剛舉手欸你也沒有跟我說我不能發言欸我們現在進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
29070.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
29078.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
你這個哪叫一個法律人在當召委呢?今天是何其專業的在做討論呢?沒有人有政治語言在發情緒發言呢?吳宗憲?你這樣拿出來?吳宗憲你這樣...高吳宗憲說他很耐心的讓我們討論吳宗憲為什麼我舉手你不讓我發言? |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
29098.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
29116.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
我們的討論需要你的耐心這是我們的直訪你要表決之前麻煩你讓我把我自己發言結束好不好反對又在強行表決了又在強行表決了又在強行表決了沒有討論不是民主又來了反對反對為什麼要停止討論呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
29126.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
29131.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
不給公聽會討論不讓社會討論也不讓立法委員討論為什麼大體討論要停止你給我一個解釋嘛為什麼大體討論只能講一次就把它停止你告訴我你告訴我我剛剛已經講了你剛剛沒有才是講一輪我剛剛已經講了齁你剛剛講了什麼有人提出希望停止討論不不我已經還沒有提出停止討論以前我已經舉手要發言了 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
29156.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
29157.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
為什麼我舉手以後你不讓我發言?你跟我講清楚就好! |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
29171.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
29194.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
我是何其尊重你們張偉行使權利為什麼我坐在這個地方沒有半句的政治語言你不能不讓我發言你結束了嗎?不!給我解釋清楚張偉沒有比我大那個我們現在已經是停職討論的東西不是嘛!你告訴我嘛!不是停職討論嘛!連主條也沒有嘛!現在是大體討論嘛!是要提案停職討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
29195.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
29197.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
不不不 這哪是停止討論呢 你們是提案是要停止 你今天已經錯過兩支提案內容了 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
29203.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
29212.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
你不懂我就教你就好嘛不要旁邊一直問嘛不是嘛你們聽主討論什麼你要告訴我啊沒有主體要聽主討論什麼呢不是嘛你要表決什麼要講啊你要表決什麼要講啊你們怎麼都變笨了呢不是你要表決什麼嘛不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
29232.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
29245.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 案。）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。） |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
29268.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
29281.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
主席謝謝主席還有在場所有的委員我想那個召委你必須要解釋清楚啦這一次啊整個憲法訴訟法的一個修法我們從早上這樣子討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
29285.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
29296.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
我也肯認說提案委員翁曉玲委員他的起心動念他認為要有更專業讓有更多的一個角度進來探討我沒有意見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
29298.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
29298.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
議員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
29325.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
29343.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
大法官會議的一個做出的一個裁決說萬年國會他必須要終止的時候那個時候大家就整個社會對整個威權時代中國國民黨在統治的時候哪怕氣氛是多麼的肅殺社會是給大法官給他們鼓掌的那會進入到1999年 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
29350.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
29377.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
國大去擴全莫名其妙多為自己延長了兩年多的一個任期也幫立法委員多增加了一點任期結果呢社會滑爛社會滑爛以後國大也報復立法院也想給人家報復可是最終啊還是慢慢去補破網不然本來當初中國國民黨是要幹什麼要廢到大法官會議啊要砍到人家的專業家籍啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
29379.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
29406.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
可是呢民意不在那個地方嘛我們四次大法官一共做了800多號的一個大法官會議解釋還有限裁制到現在一個限判制加起來啊這幾十年所做出來你去把它做一個平均啊那一年才十幾個啊那如果說這一年十幾個裡面你去把它去除啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
29407.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
29428.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
除一除以後以各位今天來看的就哎喲你的大法官給你15個有緣和你們做出來的判決竟然還那麼少那以今天如果再通過的話我擔憂的是說造成整個憲政程序的一個憲政整個體制的一個衝擊啊我擔心的是這個啊所以我才會講說那是不是我們該來進行一場公聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
29430.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
29451.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
中國國民黨現在坐在那個地方五位我用膝蓋翔我也知道到最後以吳宗憲的風格你到最後一定舉手贊成中國國民黨合理啊你們同黨的啊可是重點是說今天的修法對整個台灣的憲政體制衝擊到底會有多大我從早上到現在的發言我從來沒有站在民主進步黨的立場我站在憲法法庭的立場當年1999年啊大法官會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
29460.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
29472.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
這樣做出這一號解釋的時候啊我那個時候啊我跟各位講啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做小律師啊我那時候叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
29487.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
29503.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
剛好都是我們大法官會議所做出來的這一些解釋其實都是在限縮憲政機關的權利不是限縮說你行政機關的行政命令你本身是違憲了 把它宣告無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
29505.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
29530.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
不然就講說你這個立法院所做出的一個法律你抵觸到憲法了無效都是在講這些那我們今天我們整個提案我們站在立法院的立場難道我們不是應該站在人民的立場廣開救濟之路讓我們的大法官可以萬一碰到人民他訴訟上的權利受損害的時候讓他再找一條生路嗎結果我們反其道而行 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
29532.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
29538.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
我們反其道而行那在座各位你把它想想看喔等一下如果大家表決完了以後今天主條等一下如果主條結束了以後我們表決輸了輸了以後呢到院會以後我相信在院會裡面的結構大家很清楚啊大家對他的認知真的那麼深刻嗎黨團牌子舉起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
29557.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
29573.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
國民黨你們真的以為你們人數這樣就贏了兩票就一定通過嗎我大膽跟你揣測黃國昌跟黃珊珊這個憲法訴訟法的一個修正案他不敢站在你們那邊啊我大膽的預測他們沒有那麼大膽你至少嘛你們最喜歡講的公聽會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
29582.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
29596.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
我們雙方,各位你把它想想看,中國國民黨你們今天所提出來的這樣一個憲法訴訟法的一個修正草案,你們這個理由有辦法來博導其他政黨的人,或者有辦法來說服我們的民眾嗎?你們簡直是把憲法法庭,把這些大法官當成立法院的敵人,不對啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
29604.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
29626.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
我們立法院本身也是一個憲政機關啊我們應該跟憲法法庭我們應該跟司法院我們共同來形成整個憲政的一個成長才對啊只因為當法官會議裡面憲法法庭做出一號你說實質上好像有點廢死把以後在整個各個法院裡面限縮的法院判處死刑這樣的一個門檻把它加高以後採取這樣的一個報復這不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
29631.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
29634.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
這不對 你這樣會傷及無辜 那個無辜叫做誰 那個無辜叫做人民欸 那個無辜是人民欸 如果說你吳宗憲今天稍微有一點良知的話 你應該上來講說 我們就公聽吧 反正我們人數就是比你們多 這樣才對啊 主席不是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
29650.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
29659.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
所以我再三苦口婆心啦,你不要我講我也會說這麼多啦,到那個議事規則只要你罵我我就不罵,我要說的機會不太多,只要說下去,但是我還是苦口婆心啦稍微,如果可以你就給它公聽啦,召開一場公聽,讓整個攸關到以後的憲政制度,我們的憲法法庭的訴訟裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
29675.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
29701.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
到底要多少緣合他本身出席要多少要做評議要做判決要多少我是覺得這很合理我大膽講你這15個裡面我們今天談這個人數會影響到哪幾個部分第一個你這個緣合涉及到整個案件要不要受理第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
29702.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
29707.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。）二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。）二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。） |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
29718.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
29718.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
29738.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
29762.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
所以從過去到現在每一號的大法官會議解釋會限縮到的全部都是行政部門會限縮到的全部都是立法機關全部都在為人民廣開救濟之路那我們卻讓我們以後的憲法法庭讓他做出憲法的一個判決的時候讓他更困難這對嗎你去把它看1999年國民大會這樣的一個擴權 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
29767.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
29777.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
兩千年的司制做出來以後我告訴各位國民黨是受到人民的透氣的你再去看看2004年你那個佔調會的時候你做出來剛好跟會議解釋還是一樣的把你宣告違憲然後結論呢?的大選呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
29791.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
29814.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
國民黨其實我今天早上到現在我其實都沒有講政治上的語言我都講法律上從整個憲政制度裡面來跟大家來看看那我提供這一些來讓大家做反省其實只有一個我們都沒有辦法用專業彼此來說服彼此我也不敢完全去否定你就是因為有爭議所以我拜託公聽會啦拜託啦拜託啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
29816.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
29831.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
主席不寫了,剛才黃國昌要會議詢問,民進黨反對,結果黃國昌沒辦法會議,現在我也要有會議給我一分鐘我先簡單解釋一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
29842.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
29849.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
我先說明一下剛剛我在五四要委員在發言的時候我們就拿到那個動議單那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
29854.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
29870.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
等五委員說完的時候我就處理那至於說中委員剛剛是不是有舉手確實有舉手這是事實但就像平常我們登記發言的時候一樣如果停止的話那我們就是直接處理停止即使你今天有來登記我們也是處理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
29871.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
29871.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
29902.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
29929.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
我的會議行為很簡單我們在場應該所有人給我們吳宗憲主席一點鼓勵阿今天為對 謝謝阿因為今天講很簡單一點其實吳宗憲主席就太客氣了所以才為今天大家反而意見那麼多我舉個簡單的例子剛剛其實為什麼我剛剛特別講阿就大家就算說大體討論阿上來在發言台講啦然後有限定時間登記就比較有秩序一點否則的話我看都是從盤古開天開始講起 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
29931.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
29936.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
29947.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
29965.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
我們都還沒進入主條欸有 我要跟大家回顧一件歷史事件啦齁民進黨邱毅英當主席的時候民進黨圈圈張三王 王武李氏當主席的時候欸是直接沒收討論就直接表決輾壓欸你都不要一直老是讓我去提醒這些事情還給你拖到下午鐘吳宗憲你傻了我跟你講民進黨不會給你拖到下午的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
29971.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
29990.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
所以我在這邊阿我是對我們吳宗憲主席我真的一定要上來會議詢問一下幫他抱屈阿就是他主席真的對大家太好了就是一個非常nice的主席阿大家不要用他對大家發言的善意阿拿作為攻擊他的武器阿我相信對主席真的不公平阿想想民進黨以前怎麼做有在吳宗憲1%對所謂的在野黨對少數黨的尊重嗎沒有啦謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
30000.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
30022.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
那現在大體討論進行完畢那我們現在進行主條討論沒有沒有我也有會議詢問好那我們現在先審查第四條那第四條有翁曉玲委員等17人提案沒有啊主席你剛剛是怎樣現在請問一下您現在在進行的程序是主條討論主條討論主條討論了對那我還有會議詢問要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
30031.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
30054.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
主席今天的討論沒有討論不是民主上個會期有國會擴權法案這個會期憲法訴訟法再來一遍嗎剛剛羅志強委員把吳宗憲委員主持議事把他說的多麼的偉大多麼的了不起多麼的好棒棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
30056.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
30062.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
任何一個召委在這裡讓立委們針對議案充分討論這就是基本的職責。 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
30064.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
30091.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
還說什麼這是給予你們的耐心剛剛羅志強說吳宗憲非常的nice這是一種善意天啊立委在這裡討論議案要求充分的討論對話是要來端視主持的主席的善意的nice的耐心嗎這從頭到尾顯示的就是在野黨一種我就是比你大我就是永遠你 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
30095.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
30095.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
30113.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
30116.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。）二）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案 案。） |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
30134.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
30135.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
宮廷會有這麼困難嗎?議案連宮廷會連社會表達意見都給剝奪?你們要這樣強行碾壓? |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
30163.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
30163.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
國民黨最愛公聽會羅志強最愛公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
30191.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
30193.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
可不可以公聽會再好好來審視憲法訴訟法修法的必要性、實績表、合理性、釋法性?我們今天已經經過充分的討論為什麼不好好來處理我們早上到現在的訴求呢?因為今天很多人已經提了很多次了說 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
30214.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
30236.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
因為你都不聽啊對啊很多人你也說了很多人都提了很多次我哪是在鬧場我在會議詢問我在請求主席聆聽民意聆聽我們的訴求那主席你只要回答我們來交開公聽會再來審查我五秒鐘就可以結束我的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
30237.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
30248.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
我五秒鐘就可以結束我的發言只要您同意Say YES不要害怕公聽會回答問題那您可以30秒回答為什麼不開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
30257.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
30262.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
為什麼不開公聽會為什麼不開公聽會憲法訴訟法這麼重要你要摧毀憲法法庭你要架空大法官不開公聽會就這樣硬幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
30275.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
30304.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
那今天早上當然我們是說三十二條是第一項還是第二項其實因為我講第一項是因為第二項是要書面啦那現在看如果說你們要提書面出來那我就請使第三十二條第二項阿如果不提書面我就三十二條第一項看看兩位的意思因為今天早上是沒有提書面啦阿如果還是說你們要提書面反駁我的那個不同意我的那個主席的才是那就是進入表決這就是議事規則的做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
30305.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
30315.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
你們可以不喜歡但是我還是依照議事規則做好不好我問你的是公聽會我沒有問你議事規則我再請教你公聽會我剛剛在認真的大體討論我才第一輪而已第一輪而已我很努力的表述我的意見沒有想到我認真的討論你完全當空氣原來你完全沒有聽進去因為你只是在利用我發言的時間在等人 在call人 在揪人趕快把國民黨的委員請到現場來表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
30334.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
30360.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
讓你們成為多數表決會贏是這樣嗎我們在嚴肅的討論你看似給我發言事實上你是在call人等人叫人來表決讓你們可以強行演壓不是只有你的意見叫做意見今天在場還有這麼多的委員那我們如果說大家意見不一致的情況下對於要不要召開公聽會的意見不一致的情況下那這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
30362.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
30363.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
主席,我們會議是要開到什麼時候?開到五點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
30380.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
30383.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
因為我們要繼續開是吧所以要宣告你說我們今天的會議繼續超過五點半我們繼續把它開完還是說我們今天的會議開到五點半這個主席可以宣告啦我已經準備好了要宣告了嘛 謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
30399.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
30401.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
那表示說不受五點半的限制囉? |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
30416.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
30432.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
主席,到了5點半之前,我們還有半個多小時的時間。所以我的意思是說,因為你也當主席,我也當過主席。如果你把這個時間好好的表達出來,那我們就可以比較有餘裕的來討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
30433.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
30439.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
甚至你剛剛如果你的意思是說我們的會議時間不受五點半的限制如果繼續講超過五點半我們就繼續討論那我也很樂於聽到你的宣告但你剛剛的宣告是說進行到今天所討論的事情完畢為止那這個我們就有一個之前的經驗什麼叫做討論的事情完畢為止就是待會又有人提出停止討論的時候就是優勢表決或者主席加上你關鍵的一票那就停止討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
30460.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
30467.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
那這樣的話呢等於啊你也在五點半之前完成過水就是表示這個委員會有進行審查有詢答有大體討論有逐條只要你只是沒有說在大體討論的時候廣泛交換意見的就被終止了 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
30478.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
30478.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
議員翁曉玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
30503.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
30512.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
您的第一項和第二項,您早上的宣布只來自於6... 針對本次團體委員會議之會議時間, 您請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當進行公聽會? |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
30512.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
30514.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
延長至全部議程...請問一下有沒有不同意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
30514.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
30515.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
請問一下有沒有不同意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
30515.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
30519.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
有分,全部議程報告不報告,召開公聽會。我們要求召開公聽會。 很好笑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
30529.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
30530.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
30548.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
30568.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
主席我有說我不同意嗎?吳世耀說不同意沒有他是詢問啊剛剛不是說不同意他剛剛說不同意沒有沒有沒有我們在詢問啊因為我們表決標的吳世耀委員有表達不同意齁那我們就針對這個違反我們來進行表決有我這邊有聽到你剛剛亂哄哄你到底在宣讀什麼啊我們在請你講清楚嘛你亂哄哄請問你在宣讀什麼不要這樣子開大門走大路 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
30575.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
30599.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
完完全全複製上個會期的做法假意讓我們發言然後就開始一個一個的進行停止討論然後清點人數然後表決舉手平手的時候主席要關鍵一票讓這個表決停止討論在場出席人數10人請贊成者請舉手剛剛的提案表決什麼他說延長到所有的議事通過為止依然討論完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
30604.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
30629.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
好 那請放下 那反對者請舉手我只是要求公聽會嘛 全部的預算報告話公聽會我當然反對 我認為今天如果討論沒有共識 我們就下次繼續審查啊就下次繼續審查啊 今天大家這樣子沒有共識而且每次都5比5 要讓主席當壞人我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
30633.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
30656.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
就開到時間到就下次繼續討論了有光曉玲委員等17人提案請問就本題第四條的部分有無意義有意義阿你連主條上面沒有主條上面都有無意義你連主條上面沒有主條上面都有無意義你是直接表決這個部分齁我道歉一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
30660.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
30661.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
30685.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
30712.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
響鐘響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
30714.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
30717.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
主席你是說要休息了是不是那就休息吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
30719.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
30721.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
第四條的部分請問在場的委員有無意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
30748.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
30757.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
有意見的話我們就看有意見的人可以提出來發言有意見的請舉手發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
30775.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
30781.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
主席各位同仁現在進入主條主條我們就來看我們這個翁曉玲委員等17人所擬具的這個憲法訴訟法第四條現在應該是第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
30805.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
30821.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
第四條的這個條文他要把這個現有緣額解釋為本法所有的現有緣額就是法定緣額今天我一再強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
30823.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
30825.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
第二十六條顏值辯論需要三分之二出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
30853.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
30862.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
也原本的現有總額變成法定原額這個第三十條判決要三分之二參與評議 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
30864.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
30883.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
第32條案件受理必須要三分之二參與評議第43條暫時處分之裁定要三分之二參與評議這個原本都是現有總額現在他因為改第四條所以讓這些通通變成法定總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
30885.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
30899.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
還有第75條彈劾案的成立要三分之二同意原本是現有總額的三分之二現在會變成法定總額的三分之二第80條宣告政黨解散也是原本 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
30900.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
30924.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
是現有原額三分之二的同意未來如果修改了第四條它就會變成要法定原額三分之二的同意還要統一解釋法律命令這個二分之一的參與評議這個也會變成也就是說修這個第四條我們今天修這個第四條等於我們這剛剛我所唸的所有條文通通發生了法律的這個變動構成要進的變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
30928.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
30953.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
那麼這個這樣子的修法齁我們從今天早上一直一直闡述到現在這樣子的這樣的修法我們一直認為到底是什麼樣的理由跟前提讓國民黨今天必須這樣子動員必須在這裡這樣子排案然後主席要這樣子配合演出要等人數到了然後這個進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
30955.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
30980.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
為什麼要這樣?到底是有什麼急迫急切的理由?結果一聽國民黨所提出的理由都是現在的這個大法官會議作出的暫時處分然後這個大法官會議對於這個死刑核限之後他把這個程序的嚴謹化這個部分他們不滿所以他們第一在整個發言過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
30982.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
30996.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
就抹黑大法官會議說大法官會議就是政黨的打手啦就為了這兩個案子這個抹黑大法先把大法官會議破曬、鬥臭 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
30998.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
31000.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
31025.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
31033.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
司法委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案案。．完整會議司法委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案。．完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
31041.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
31064.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
然後再來羅志強認為現在提名大法官都是支持費時的所以要重新提名就你們認為就要重新提名不讓立法院大家來審一審看看立法院其他人除了你們三個以外其他人到底覺得他們適不適合啊還是你們三個人說了算就要求總統重新提名之後才要審查啊然後不審查擺明了現在不審查現在大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
31071.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
31096.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
的提名人然後再來再修改修改這個這個憲法訴訟法就是要癱瘓未來的憲法法庭憲法法庭我再一次強調他是人民權益人民權益救濟的最後救濟手段今天我們做這樣的決議未來影響到的是人民的權益未來所有我們過去憲法法庭所做的所有的這些這些這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
31097.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
31117.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
這些判決大部分都是牽涉人民權益的包括負稅包括食品衛生包括代理教師的資格這些都是人民的權益未來遇到這樣子的狀況憲法法庭被癱瘓了他就沒有辦法救濟了這個我們看到這一段時間以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
31124.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
31143.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
考試院的人事權也不省,癱瘓考試院未來的運作。行政院預算退回,要癱瘓行政院的運作。然後修改憲法訴訟法,癱瘓司法院憲法法庭的運作。要整個癱瘓這個政府的運作。到底誰會做這種事情,要癱瘓中華民國政府? |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
31152.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
31173.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
這是中華民國的敵人才會做這種事情啊所以現在齁我們今天經過一整天的討論我是希望我們一直今天整天我們就起兩個兩個訴求讓讓其實國民黨一直沒有回答這兩個訴求說到底為什麼不要第一我們認為應該召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
31176.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
31181.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
先召開一個公聽會就召開一個公聽會然後再來進入審查第二我認為應該司法院大法官的人事同意權我們先審查審查完才有我們今天立法的前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
31199.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
31207.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
審查了我們大家覺得說啊真的立法院最後表決了這個大法官會議全部都不過那就有說未來是不是剩下8個人也審查都不排不讓立法院大家針對其他委員就跟程序委員會退回總預算一樣不讓其他的委員來參與討論在程序委員會就把他處理掉然後在這裡我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
31224.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
31235.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
不讓其他委員來討論他們認為大法官到底現在總統所提名的大法官到底施任或不施任然後就直接修改憲法訴訟法這個齁 這都是我認為說這個我剛講過任何對個案的不滿都不應該惡搞這個體制體制是長長久久 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
31248.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
31254.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
今天民進黨執政未來可能就是國民黨執政今天國民黨多數未來可能國民黨變少數所以這個制度就是長長久久在那裡對個案的不滿我們就針對個案來討論不滿大法官會議做出不滿這個憲法法庭做出暫時處分的討論我們就在憲法法庭上面辯論就在憲法法庭針對這個案子來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
31276.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
31302.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
而不是就這樣子來癱瘓憲法法庭所以我今天我個人在這裡表達今天在逐條討論我表達我個人對於修改對於這個翁曉玲委員等17人擬具的這個憲法訴訟法第四條的修正案個人僅表不同意也希望本委員會也希望本委員會能夠懸崖勒馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
31303.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
31306.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
我們下一位請翁委員那翁委員的下一位就是中委員本席要再次的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
31327.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
31344.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
這次提出憲法訴訟法第四條明定大法官現有總額就是憲法徵修條文所指的15位大法官我們的目的是為了要健全憲法法庭審議的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
31345.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
31362.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
不是為了其他的什麼思議故意要去癱瘓憲法法庭我們已經發現了有這樣的一個憲法裁判程序上面的漏洞當然必須要透過修法去把它彌補起來這是再簡單不過的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
31367.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
31374.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
坦白說這個條文應該是要跟大法官的人事案是切割來看的脫鉤來看的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
31376.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
31384.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
那麼確實我們未來極有可能會發生當這個要迴避的法官人數過多或者是說是這個因為可能有提前辭任或是出缺種種的狀況那導致可能憲法法庭的法官審議人大法官審議人數不足的時候我們要怎麼樣能夠讓憲法裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
31402.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
31425.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
更具有民主正當性能夠讓他所做成的憲法法院的判決能夠說服人民能夠讓人民心服口服能夠贏得更多人的這個尊敬和建立公信力這個是我提這個法案的最重要的初衷我必須講今天民進黨委員一直在講這是什麼會癱瘓憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
31428.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
31447.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
我告訴大家不會的相反的他基本上是在維護人民的釋憲申請權他是要讓整個的這個未來憲法裁判更為嚴謹大法官自己都說了對不對對於重要的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
31448.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
31464.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
那麼法官應該要採取最嚴格、最嚴密、最符合正當法律程序的方式去做。那麼為什麼自己憲法法庭就不需要去遵守這樣的一個至高的原則呢?所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
31468.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
31480.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
這個條文基本上在過去學界已經有很多的教授們都提出論文認為從大法官審理案件法後來修法降低誰通過的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
31482.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
31482.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
〈憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案〉案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
31505.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
31505.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
總委員． |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
31526.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
31544.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
主席謝謝那在我準備的同時我也有用powerpoint讓大家看得更清楚大家知道我在講哪一個部分主席可以嗎主席可以喔好那麼剛剛我們翁委員提案委員講到一個他很擔心大法官會越來越少有啦過去曾經有人為了讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
31545.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
31563.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
憲法釋憲案不能做出決定當然是電影的虛構情節叫做煎糊檔案他講的是為了避免美國的大法官會議做成不利某特定利益團體的他們就去暗殺大法官要讓大法官越來越少在小說家的想像就是暗殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
31564.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
31583.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
那表示什麼?為什麼利益團體在這個電影故事情節當中要去暗殺大法官?因為他知道大法官是人民受憲法保障基本權利的守護神。那我再舉幾個比較淺顯的例子讓人家了解了解。我們在使用電腦的時候呢,我們網路上我們都設定防火牆。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
31584.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
31609.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
如果你把防火牆的等級設到最高你大概很難使用聯網你連傳輸、下載、上傳資訊都會變得非常的困難但是如果你防火牆設得很低有可能你就容易中病毒容易被害所以其實所謂的門檻所以審查的強度它其實就看決定你的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
31610.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
31629.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
我再舉例來講,如果你覺得人民有受到人民保姆、警察、治安保護的這樣的權利,所以人民如果遇到不法侵害,他可以去派出所報案。假如說今天我們要求派出所在受理報案的程序上非常的嚴格,不只要雙證,還要有做保。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
31633.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
31646.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
31652.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
31672.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
同樣的道理我們有人民有公民權公民權選擇罷免創制覆決如果你把罷免權的行使設計的門檻很高或者你把公民要提出公民投票的門檻設很高多高叫做高沒有一定的定論 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
31673.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
31692.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
有時候當這個國家社會覺得公民投票太腐爛了他就會把門檻加高如果覺得公民投票老是沒有辦法成案他就把門檻降低這跟黃火牆的道理是一樣那到底目前我們來看一看在場的代表國內主要政黨的代表社會的意見領袖轉身圍在我們的議場上為人民喉舌的這些立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
31702.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
31719.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
國民黨的立場,你們認不認為目前要讓人民可以多行使罷免權,還是不宜行使罷免權?那就看你們對於選罷法,是將會人規定,人民心中自然知道,你對於人民的四項公民的行使,你們的態度是傾向加嚴,限制還是放寬,讓他便於行使。我再強調一次, |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
31724.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
31738.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
放寬或加嚴沒有絕對的價值好壞全看在實務的運作上你側重誰的權利所以說到這裡我們大法官如果讓他受理民眾的申請要形成審判的懲彙 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
31741.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
31741.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
今天呢﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
31764.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
31773.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
翁曉玲委員提案某個程度上是取巧啦其實我們憲法訴訟法講到了現有總額出現了10次那如果你認為這10次的樣子都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
31779.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
31799.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
當然你可以放在第四條加上第二項只要談到了大法官憲有總額就通通用憲法的15人作為他的總額這樣最快閉旗公與議主席也比較好審查今天只要主持一條過了十個條文通通改為什麼從憲有總額改為15人的緣額 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
31803.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
31819.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
這最快啊但是請問一下這十條對於大法官所謂的現有總額的規定的作用剛剛專委員做了一個非常精彩的演示他告訴你一個憲法法庭從受理要不要受理到有沒有參與會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
31822.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
31833.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
可不可以作出最後緊急處分?他做了很多很多。這裡面每一個條文都涉及到要不要把現有總額用一個剛性的法定總額去取代。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
31834.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
31861.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
但是我們的提案人或者說背後提供意見的人是不是過去有沒有擔任過大法官我也不清楚是不是有時任審判的經驗我也不清楚但是他就認為用最便捷的方式去修法我在這裡可以預告現在時間是5點21分待會主席的耐心會在5點半之前用完到時候又有人要提出停止討論所以我希望主席您看的時間我也看的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
31862.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
31876.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
我希望說我的預言不要成真啊但是讓我把它講完你看你看我才講到一半他又拿著一張紙又站起來了我們媒體鏡子拍一下我現在就要講了嘛我把這個條文秀出來為什麼我要秀出這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
31878.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
31892.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
一個立法院在執行他的修法沒有做憲法訴訟法是立法院可以立法規範的但是今天你看看這個第四條他在講什麼大法官憲法法庭審理規則由大法官來決定欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
31895.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
31919.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
是不是?請提案委員看一下你去動的這個條文他本來第四條他的本意思寫什麼?請看一下好不好?第四條內容寫什麼?第四條內容就很清楚告訴你大法官他們怎麼去審理案件怎麼去進行憲法訴訟他就寫啊憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之前項規則由全體大法官一決之 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
31921.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
31945.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
第四條就明明白白擺明了大法官行使憲法賦予他憲法機關的權責就是由這個第四條明白的立法院同意立法交給他處理結果你把這個第四條加個第二項就說憲而總而要依憲法的十五人來規定而且不分青紅皂白十五條就十個條文就一次改掉但是你有沒有注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
31948.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
31976.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
憲法訴訟法第十一條第十二條十一條在講迴避的時候有沒有講到額數問題有有講到額數問題十一條的第二項寫因前二條以外之其他事由大法官任由自行迴避之必要者得經其他大法官半數有沒有出現額數有有出現額數那請問其他大法官幾名啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
31977.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
32003.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
是憲法規定的15名嗎?其他意思是什麼?因迴避者或主張自行迴避的人以外的那一群人意思說在這個條文裡面他是個其他大法官得經其他大法官過半數同意迴避之好請問一下其他大法官如果不有其他萬人有幾名那過半數怎麼求出? |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
32005.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
32005.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
32032.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
32036.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
另外還有一個地方出現了問題什麼時候還出現過憲有名額憲有總額 憲有總額出現幾次憲有總額還出現在憲法訴訟法第39條請出示39條憲法訴訟法往前往前再往前憲法訴訟法第39條再往前 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
32052.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
32063.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
憲法訴訟法第49條立法委員憲有總額四分之一以上就要其行使職權要請求憲法法庭受理釋憲這裏是憲有總額啊同樣是憲有總額只要前面是大法官的憲有總額那出現了十次提案委員翁委員認為通通改成什麼法定總額法定總額是剛性的憲有總額是浮動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
32081.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
32109.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
那立法院有沒有總額的規定?有啊!立法委員總數規定在哪裡?憲法第三條啊!113名啊!第七屆開始啊!為什麼我們立法院翻遍所有的立法院執行司法的規定跟相關的會議規則?哪一條使用憲法這麼剛性的幾乎不可能修改的113人的規定?沒有啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
32110.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
32137.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
一向以來立法院最多在憲法正修條文把立法委員前面再加個什麼?全體立法委員全體立法委員是什麼意思?是憲法講的113人嗎?不是啊!全體就是還在的所以對於全體立法委員的規定就在我們的立法院執行司法很清楚的第四條寫在裡面很奇怪很臭小又是第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
32138.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
32161.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
立法院職權刑事法第四條就寫了我們的總額我們立法委員的全體立法委員總額怎麼定總額怎麼定在該會期有報到的扣掉辭職的扣掉頑固的去職的這些之外才叫做現有總額就是全體立法委員的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
32162.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
32172.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
立法院自己行使職權都依著這樣的一個彈性的變動的狀況去設算他做成決議進行討論做成任何各種動議的額數規定的母數結果立法委員自己在憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
32182.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
32192.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
第四條你要增加這個改為什麼法定總額但是憲法訴訟法第49條講到你立法院的憲法總額為什麼提案人不把改成法定原額法定總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
32194.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
32222.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
你既然認為說要嚴格要保障要能夠讓憲法訴訟法更能夠嚴謹的來行使儘管你口頭說這是保障人民的權利那你立法院呢立法院提出釋憲申請不也是是要保障立法委員的權利嗎不是啊也是保障立法委員他在立法過程當中他為了要立法來保障人民的權益但是如果如果跟憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
32223.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
32249.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
有衝突或者認為有衝突少數委員認為有衝突少數委員．多數委員通過的法條不能夠保障人民的權利義務所以要提出事先申請四分之一現有總額就可以那請問提案委員你這裡的現有總額又不改啦大法官的你就要改成法定總額用憲法的15名講到你立法委員的四分之一現有總額你半個字都沒有動所以講到兩個啊雙標啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
32254.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
32272.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
遇到大法官你說你沒有意見我們看一下翁委員說要脫鉤我們覺得跟大法官的人事案的審查沒有意見您在受訪的時候提案委員在受訪的時候就口口說什麼賴總統提名的法官大法官這很難我們覺得嚴格法官不能浪大於充數必要的時候一個都不給過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
32275.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
32300.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
提案委員自己在接受媒體訪問的時候就已經自曝了什麼自曝動機了嘛你都覺得還沒審查你就覺得很爛看名單就覺得爛不用進行審查就覺得都不能通過有可能都不通過既然有可能都不通過我們這時候修改憲法訴訟法還說用法定的憲法法定的15席是為了保障我們憲法訴訟事件的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
32301.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
32308.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
這個實在是言行啊前言跟後面的行為實在是滿有矛盾所以我這裡呢還是要談到這裡面兩個問題第一個雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
32313.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
32331.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
你在憲法訴訟法的第四條完完全全當時憲法訴訟法在107年通過的時候就是明白的立法院同意你憲法法庭怎麼運作第三條明明白白的請你們立法院司法院你們自己定大法官你們自己決定審查規則你們自己定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
32333.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
32354.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
很清楚結果呢你現在在這條底下下一個相反的說你現在的限用總額10個地方的規定都要用什麼用法定總額你要寫的15名然後呢第二個雙標到了你39條立法委員限用總額提出事先申請的時候這個四分之一你的限用總額你不改 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
32356.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
32362.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
造成的結果是什麼?造成的結果就是包括待會提案委員會講一下那麼我們的迴避規定11條其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
32367.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
32391.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
其他過半數同意,這個其他的額數要怎麼去算出來?他到底是怎麼去算?憲法總額,法定總額,沒有母數,我這過半怎麼決定?11條怎麼運作?我也不太清楚。所以結論啊,這個條文,我從頭到尾我們沒有用政治語言,我們從依法論法,從法理上來看, |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
32392.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
32417.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
一個依法的前面跟後面一個法條的前後的一致性跟完整性我們提案委員用一個最有效率最廉價最便利的方式一口氣閹割了十個憲法法庭運作的關鍵的額數定義無視於這十個規定在憲法法庭受理民眾申請事件的審判過程當中它有它不同的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
32418.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
32429.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
有一棒打死而且還很荒謬的寫在第四條第二項是授權由司法院自行決定他們的憲法法庭他們的審理規則的那個條款多諷刺啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].start |
32432.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].end |
32452.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].text |
立法委員的憲法總統不動然後迴避的規定怎麼適用過半數怎麼認定完全複製缺乳我希望我們今天這樣的一個討論能夠就事論事主席欸 超過時間了啊我預言失敗那我們就聽聽看我們提案委員對這些我們來互相的來交流意見以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].start |
32455.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].end |
32456.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].text |
主席我可以講幾句話嗎可以齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].start |
32485.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].end |
32491.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].text |
今天涉及到整個憲法訴訟法司法院也列席整部法律涉及到司法院以後憲法法庭他在審理案件的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].start |
32512.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].end |
32514.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].text |
司法院都不會是路人甲啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].start |
32527.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].end |
32540.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].text |
那是不是照我們的往例啊那個昭緯聽聽看司法院到底他們對這樣的一個提案的說法他們的看法是什麼我再來表達我的意見好嗎我這樣給你建議我當然要發脾氣啊我舉手你沒讓我講話我當然發脾氣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].start |
32552.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].end |
32574.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].text |
我這邊跟莊委員前輩報告一下我們的立法院議事規則第33條第二項出席委員亦得提出停止討論之動議。那經15人以上聯署或副議不經討論,由主席進行表決。那因為他這個規定在這裡是準要的嘛。你知道那條規定的危言大義是什麼嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].start |
32577.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].end |
32589.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].text |
麻煩你告訴我我現在就告訴你那是雙方論戰僵持不下必須透過民主正當程序因為我條文沒有看到這個規範輸的人就輸啊但問題是我還沒講話啊也許你的同事等一下被我說服了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].start |
32598.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].end |
32617.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].text |
中委員,那個從歷次,因為我自己來這邊之後,我也是回去看以前的意識錄,其實提出停滯討論這是常見的事情。我跟你講,不要讓我們立法院越走越沒有水準欸,吳宗憲,你不是那個唱歌的吳宗憲欸。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].start |
32622.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].end |
32649.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].text |
中委員那你可不可以告訴我議事規則第三三條有哪個文字的記載有中委員剛剛的那個偉大的意見我就跟你講啊整條我們任何的法律的一個立法一定有它的立法它的意旨要解決什麼那這一條要解決什麼就很簡單啊這一條要解決的不是說來看一看誰人比較多我當召委了好停止討論已經講一個了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].start |
32650.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].end |
32677.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].text |
一條法律涉及到這麼的一個重大那你怎麼會連司法 吳宗憲請尊重主席你覺得討論不清楚 他們覺得討論清楚了我還沒講話為什麼要清楚了不是不是 不不不 你這個又更離譜了我都還沒講話 你說這一條已經討論清楚了不是 我跟你講 你聽我說嘛 你就是都不聽我講話所以才 啊你亂講我怎麼聽你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].start |
32679.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].end |
32702.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].text |
我跟你說齁我在這邊再說一次麻煩你聽我講一下啊為什麼你不聽我講我講的這麼有道理第四規則第33條已經我就跟你說你御解這個條文嘛那你跟我說一四規則你不是叫我講給你聽我再講給你聽你又不聽是你叫我講給你聽欸總委員我們是在開會不是吵架啊no no no no 莊委莊委剛剛你請我講 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].start |
32705.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].end |
32712.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].text |
我不是跟你建議嗎?錯在我就跟你講你誤解了整個法律的規定阿我就跟你說司法院他不是路人甲整部法令的一個制定你讓司法院講一句話都沒有這對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].start |
32729.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].end |
32755.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].text |
這叫主持會議嗎那這樣子齁如果說中委員你還是堅持這樣那我就依據我所了解的議事規則條文文字非常清楚我又來到一個跟我不一樣議事規則我也會啊我怎麼會不懂呢來來來我要講我要講我要講我要詢問你好好現在已經停止討論了齁那我們現在呃就是請問那我請問主席我們現在程序進行到什麼地步 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].start |
32762.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].end |
32770.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].text |
不是不是不是各位在場偉大的政治家容許我講完表決輸了我也敢玩 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].start |
32771.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].end |
32789.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].text |
我也感恩你知道嗎今天喔不是不是我想委員不是這樣因為你這個提案你會過你會歷史留名你如果認為是對的我也給你拍手啊你要感到很開心啊可是一個法案要讓它通過以前我們今天涉及到整個司法院我們為什麼不讓司法院表達一點意見不是這樣子嗎我告訴你這樣我就不說話了你就現在開始一直在亂亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].start |
32798.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].end |
32802.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].text |
司法院這次是停職討論並保留這提案人是這樣寫停職討論並保留我再跟公務員請言的等一下要說沒有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].start |
32820.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].end |
32841.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].text |
那有意義的話那我們就進行表決吳宗憲你這樣不對啦你這樣不對啦主條討論你不讓人家討論你這個叫做當主席啊你後悔都不後悔都要後悔這個肉你剛才跟我說大體討論你說大家說一輪就算了你主條主條大家坐在這個地方在開會你連讓人家講一次的話的機會都沒有這樣對嗎你說你不要公聽就算了那為什麼主條我不能表達我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].start |
32849.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].end |
32860.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].text |
你不是說大家互相來折衝嗎大家講完意見那講完意見你反對我了你至少讓我講完你表決說我輸了我感恩啊社會上可以公平啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].start |
32864.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].end |
32879.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].text |
那我甚至提出說跟你昭緯提醒我說這整個憲法訴訟法司法院他不是路人講聽聽看他的看法然後不同的政黨之間也許會做出不同的修正也不一定啊昭緯這樣有什麼不對?這樣不對在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].start |
32889.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].end |
32899.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].text |
我說現在在竹條本來他涉及相關機關就可以表達他的看法啊早上那個叫做那個叫做尋答捏是不是這樣說不是嘛噢不要以為這個叫做一個條文啊我跟大家報告啊我們的司法院啊曾經啊司法院在曾經啊民國46年啊叫做白馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].start |
32918.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].end |
32933.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].text |
他作出了4至76號解釋他把他解釋成國民大會跟監察院還有立法院把那兩個機關同步認為是民主國家的國會結果立法院就報復所以當年就要四分之三出席四分之三同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].start |
32934.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].end |
32950.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].text |
當年就是這樣子啊那後來大家反省了嘛都變成是可決都是二分之一嘛就這樣子嘛那你現在把它提升到三分之二大家就講道理聽聽看司法院他不是路人甲會不會怎麼樣這樣有什麼不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].start |
32952.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].end |
32952.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].text |
請點在場的出席委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].start |
32974.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].end |
32982.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].text |
我都還沒有開始討論你就要表決沒有討論只會表決沒有討論只會表決你們再一次示範了什麼叫做國會最大認為以達可不表決的程度的時候討論要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].start |
32996.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].end |
33021.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].text |
三十三條你要看一下不是嘛主席三十三條看一下你們議事人員不要這麼亂出手主義你們議事人員你們亂解釋那贊成則五位反對者四位反對反對反對等一下主席你的四位怎麼來的主席你的四位怎麼來的反對者這邊在這邊坐著如果人家為什麼都四位 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].start |
33025.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].end |
33032.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].text |
公然作票啊!公然作票啊!公然作票啊!你把誰當空氣啊?我們這裡五個哪裡變四位啊?剛剛哪四票?剛剛哪四票?你剛剛四票是哪四票? |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].start |
33043.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].end |
33064.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].text |
打4票等一下你剛剛拿4票等一下你剛剛拿4票等一下嘛我要講話我覺得奇怪你們為什麼從來不讓我講因為你今天話太多啦你今天話太多啦你當主席就讓整個議事讓他上場就好為什麼要發表你的說法不讓你講話如果各位有興趣回去看影片是誰在那邊一直在那邊講話干擾整個議事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].start |
33066.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].end |
33068.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].text |
但是我們都還沒有講逐條討論你就要停止討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].start |
33095.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].end |
33107.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].text |
我還沒有發表條文的意見又要沒有討論不是民主又要來一次上會期的教訓還不夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].start |
33110.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].end |
33119.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].text |
主席!江湖要走基本法律素養要有啦!主席33條看了沒?議事規則33條主席可以解釋一下嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].start |
33136.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].end |
33159.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].text |
第四條聽之討論並保留我還沒有討論我們先審查第九十五條那第九十五條有翁曉玲等16人提案那請問各位在場的委員對於第九十五條有意見主席會議詢問有意見主席需要詢問一下你說到我們會議討論議程完整為止對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].start |
33164.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].end |
33164.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].text |
主席主席認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].start |
33192.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].end |
33194.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].text |
以答可交付表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].start |
33197.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].end |
33224.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].text |
該講的都講了可交付表決了那就停止討論你可以自行宣告33條當然也可以動議32條準用我們根據立法院各委員會組織法第21條可以準用議事規則用院會的議事規則那你今天也很仁慈你說不要用第二項不要用書面的用第一項用預備會議的準用這個你事後解釋清楚我們都覺得主席這樣子是讓會議可以順利進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].start |
33225.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].end |
33226.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].start |
33245.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].end |
33273.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].text |
加上司法院不是路人甲剛剛我們中委員說啦司法院你也不能把它當空氣啊那遇到施行法的時候原來的設計它是交由司法院定之這個我再show PowerPoint給你看今天本席是做充足的準備那您是不是讓我們大家都講過主席會議詢問接下來的主條您所謂的充分討論到達可交付表決的程度認為怎麼樣叫充分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].start |
33276.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].end |
33283.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].text |
三三條第二項初期委員可以提出在歷次的會議非常常見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].start |
33296.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].end |
33297.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].text |
憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].start |
33330.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].end |
33331.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].text |
你早上曾經講錯嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].start |
33338.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].end |
33360.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].text |
第三條第二項初期委員得亦得提出停止討論所以你是認為剛剛我們是用33條的第二項停止討論你早上說的是32條的第一項然後在我們準用我們的立法院各委員會組織法裡面的第21條可以準用院會的規定那現在呢你現在跑出來是33條的第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].start |
33360.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].end |
33368.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].text |
是只要有委員認為．出席委員認為．可以停止討論．就可以了．是不是這樣子．因為早上你講的跟下午講的不一樣．所以特別要詢問一下． |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].start |
33370.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].end |
33370.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].start |
33392.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].end |
33392.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].start |
33412.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].end |
33413.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].text |
我跟你講齁 你都 你的習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].start |
33439.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].end |
33467.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].text |
不要這樣講什麼叫我的習慣 你的習慣才差勁欸沒關係齁 我跟你說因為你一直不聽我講話嘛因為你亂講嘛好好好 隨便你齁來 我們就95條各位在場的委員有意見要發表的請舉手來那因為剛剛吳思耀委員先 然後再來翁曉玲委員然後沈委員 然後那個鍾委員還有後面還有啊剛剛沒有講到的話 那鍾委員可以先啊鍾委員 你可以我不要人手 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].start |
33469.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].end |
33470.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].text |
我沒有限制時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].start |
33485.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].end |
33513.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].text |
主席非常遺憾剛剛在進入第四條的時候我已經多次舉手我爭取這是我的權利我要在逐條發言好好討論可是就被你們強行表決沒收閹割了我的逐條發言上個會期國會擴權法案同樣的負面的案例再一次活生生血淋淋再次發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].start |
33514.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].end |
33521.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].text |
所以國民黨永遠學不會教訓永遠是要閹割立法院的討論的程序正義喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].start |
33523.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].end |
33551.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].text |
請翁曉玲委員聆聽一下因為你是提案委員第四條的部分您在修正是增列了第三項第四條的第一項是說憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之所以憲法法庭審理的規則有了這個母法的授權訂定了一個審理規則總共呢有多少條文您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].start |
33554.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].end |
33578.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].text |
翁曉玲委員您知道憲法法庭的審理規則有幾個條文您知道嗎?我只說網上有幾個條文您知道嗎?第四條只有三項只有三項您要增略第三項第一項就提到憲法法庭審理的規則由司法院定之你現在可以google |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].start |
33579.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].end |
33607.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].text |
給你時間Google憲法法庭的審理規則有74個條文總共分9張第4條的第1項在講憲法法庭的審理規則由司法院定之這就告訴了我們憲法法庭的進行如果你沒有辦法回答我憲法法庭的審理規則有幾條你就閉嘴 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].start |
33609.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].end |
33619.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].text |
你自己提案第四條有三個兩個條文你居然連第一個條文的憲法法庭審理規則有幾條你不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].start |
33621.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].end |
33645.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].text |
第四條的第一項憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之全文有七十四個條文憲法法庭從組成他各項的從法律解釋從他的迴避從包括政黨解散或者是要彈劾總統副總統他所有的受理的程序開會的程序都是在憲法法庭審理規則來定之的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].start |
33647.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].end |
33666.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].text |
全文有74條這是您所提案的憲法訴訟法第四條的第一項而你不知道第二項叫做前項規則由全體大法官議決之換言之中文應該看得懂吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].start |
33668.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].end |
33685.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].text |
閱讀能力應當沒有問題吧?憲法法庭的審理規則依憲法訴訟法第一項跟第二項都告訴我們有權利針對憲法法庭審理規則去定的是大法官自己而不是立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].start |
33686.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].end |
33703.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].text |
今天翁曉玲委員取巧的在憲法訴訟法第四條針裂了第三項非常遺憾大家看到了他針裂第四條的第三項他居然連第一項跟第二項在講什麼他不知道然後他提案要針裂第三項笑死人笑死人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].start |
33706.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].end |
33722.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].text |
笑死人讀法律的劉德的你在修憲法訴訟法的第四條只有兩項現有條文你連前兩項在講什麼你不知道好你提了第三項你居然提了第三項是來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].start |
33723.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].end |
33750.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].text |
否定是來前後矛盾推翻第一項跟第二項所說的憲法法庭的審理規則是司法院定之而司法院定之的全體大法官可以決定他的審理規則是什麼所以你居然可以現在用立法權升到憲法法庭的審理規則裡面你要去限制他的開會人數現有緣額就是法定緣額 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].start |
33752.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].end |
33780.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].text |
你有這種權利嗎?我想問一下就教於我們司法院的副秘書長喔請問誰有權利去定司法院的審理規則審理規則依照第四條第二項是由大法官去定的也就是司法院定之然後大法官決定嘛所以立法委員可以來替大法官決定他的審理規則是什麼嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].start |
33782.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].end |
33784.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].text |
所以非常清楚非常清楚來我請問副秘書長大法官誓字585號是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].start |
33798.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].end |
33804.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].text |
國會縱使有調查權,它有它職權權限的前提,不能侵害行政特權,不能侵害司法訴訟案件中進行的案件。這也就是釋字585號告訴我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].start |
33823.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].end |
33836.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].text |
各個憲政機關不得去侵犯另外的憲政機關的權利核心領域我請問副秘書長就司法院大法官會議憲法法庭的權利核心領域是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].start |
33839.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].end |
33855.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].text |
跟委員報告當然憲法法庭就是要去去履行這個這個憲法裁判的這個這個義務所以我們一再跟委員們報告說希望整個修法能夠讓憲法法庭能夠順利的去履行它憲法上面的事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].start |
33856.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].end |
33870.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].text |
換言之立法委員用立法修法的方式來剝奪司法院憲政機關的權力核心領域造成司法院憲法法庭的行使職權的實質妨害請問這有沒有涉及違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].start |
33875.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].end |
33876.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].text |
所以非常清楚,翁委員所提案的憲法訴訟法的第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].start |
33897.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].end |
33920.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].text |
現行的條文是兩項前兩項都很清楚的告訴我們憲法法庭的審理規則是司法院自己定的而由司法院的全體大法官來議決他們怎麼樣在行使憲法法庭的釋憲案不管是受理人民的申請釋憲或是政府機關的申請釋憲所依循的所有原則是大法官決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].start |
33921.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].end |
33945.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].text |
立法權沒有權利把手伸到司法權裡面去而且去針對他們開會審理的規則來說三道四來要求原額這是國會最大這是國會優位這是立法院用立法院憲政機關的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].start |
33948.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].end |
33972.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].text |
去剝奪了其他憲政機關去履行他的憲法忠誠義務這些事情都在我們上個會期去上了憲法法庭大法官告訴我們的全社會都聽懂了全社會都學會了只有國民黨到現在還執迷不悟我在看第四條翁曉玲委員提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].start |
33974.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].end |
33978.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].text |
憲法訴訟法第十五條條文規定大法官十五人其設立十五人的目的就在確保憲法法庭審理重大案件進行多數決的時候能夠來涵蓋多元意見和觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].start |
33997.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].end |
34021.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].text |
避免單一或少數觀點來主導判決而無法充分考量各種專業角度及見解導致專業意見不足影響裁判的質量和深度造成公眾對大法官公信力的下降破壞司法公信力我全部念完我認為你在修的你在講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].start |
34022.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].end |
34042.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].text |
其實是在告訴我們立法院要趕快行使大法官的同意權讓15名大法官都不會有缺額都能夠完全在審理重大案件的時候進行多數決的時候都能夠因為大法官補齊了15人他的多元意見跟觀點都可以被實踐避免預防掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].start |
34045.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].end |
34065.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].text |
去杜絕掉單一少數觀點來主導判決您自己的提案的說明的第一點你在說的其實不是合理化正當化你修正憲法訴訟法的理由你自己在說的是立法院要來進行大法官人事同意權的審理你在說的應當是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].start |
34068.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].end |
34092.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].text |
唯有趕快行使人事同意權讓補足7名到10月底已經到任的大法官唯有如此大法官的15人才會都到任都能夠履行他的法定義務翁曉玲委員在憲訴法第四條的提案說明的第二點您是這樣說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].start |
34094.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].end |
34111.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].text |
現行憲法訴訟法沒有明定大法官現有總額的定義僅規定迴避的大法官不計入總額的人數所以會出現三四位大法官即形成多數意見而做成判決的極端情形發生請秀一下我的極端情形發生的PPT好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].start |
34114.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].end |
34140.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].text |
翁曉玲委員請您看一看你在提案說明的第二點你說的極端案例會存在只有三四位大法官就可以形成多數意見來做成判決我現在秀出來了翁委員請看著我的PPT翁委員請看著我的PPT好嗎請看著吳斯耀好嗎不要躲避 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].start |
34141.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].end |
34158.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].text |
您說的極端案例哪裡發生過?憲訴法2019制定到現在48個我再發言好嗎?48個案件裡頭都是大於十位大法官的審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].start |
34160.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].end |
34186.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].text |
當中37案是15名大法官全員參與請翁曉玲委員講清楚哪裡發生過只有三四位大法官就可以決定憲法解釋的案例案例在哪裡案例會有下一頁在未來還沒發生的狀況請問委員您看看我的PPT您看一下好嗎我選了一張您美麗的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].start |
34187.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].end |
34213.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].text |
委員翁不要逃避請看著我的PPT好嗎你又不敢看那我就說給你聽你掩耳盜鈴不敢直視那我就報告給你聽如果這次你們拒不行使大法官的人事同意權造成七位大法官沒有辦法通過僅剩八位大法官的憲法法庭才有可能發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].start |
34214.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].end |
34234.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].text |
才有可能發生參與評議跟同意的門檻往下降但是至少也會有六位委員參與評議五位同意也不會發生三位四位就來決定憲法解釋的狀況不要只會造謠只會亂說只會胡扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].start |
34243.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].end |
34267.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].text |
我就拿你自己憲法訴訟法第四條修正條文你增加第三項但是你居然不知道第一項第二項在講什麼然後你的兩點修法的意見其實都正說明了你要修的不是憲訴法國民黨要做的是即刻來進行大法官人事同意權的行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].start |
34268.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].end |
34283.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].text |
趕快想方設法你可以針對現在的七位不滿意沒有關係審查之後你可以同意你可以不同意但是我們要努力的讓十月底即將到任的大法官能補幾個就補幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].start |
34287.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].end |
34299.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].text |
你們認為賴于充數你認為提名的名單不夠亮眼你認為不適任這是你現在說的請站上審查的質詢台直求對決比看看誰有法律專業這是憲訴法今天修的條文只有兩條是非常清楚修的兩條但是他會翻天覆地的去毀滅憲法法庭的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].start |
34316.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].end |
34342.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].text |
憲法法庭的審理規則是司法院的大法官自己可以決定的不是立法院幫忙定的立法權又把手伸到司法權裡頭去剝奪其他憲政機關的權力核心領域上個會期的教訓你們受的還不夠學的還不多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].start |
34345.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].end |
34370.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].text |
我回到前面我的PPT前面再前面再前好再一頁請國民黨的委員好好看一看憲法訴訟制度不應當淪為政治攻防下的犧牲品你們現在搞不清楚條文然後就胡亂的增建增修第三項就是把憲訴法來作為政治攻防的犧牲品 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].start |
34371.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].end |
34371.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].text |
跟委員報告齁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].start |
34402.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].end |
34422.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].text |
因為憲法訴訟法第十二條他依法定法迴避了大法官不記錄現有的這個總額然後這一部分然後跟第四條又把那個現有總額算成法定原額就會變成一個情形說今天大法官他因為辭職 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].start |
34424.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].end |
34441.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].text |
因為之前也曾經有發說今天假設他迴避 迴避完他可能辭職那迴避如果依照委員講迴避本身是不計入縣的人他辭職反而又不扣這個辭職或者是在任期中過世嚴格上來講比迴避還更嚴重結果迴避不扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].start |
34444.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].end |
34444.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].text |
委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].start |
34467.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].end |
34474.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].text |
那麼如果說依照四條的修正的話會造成現在已經受理的案件將來沒有辦法沒有辦法沒有辦法及時進入去審理對這人民的權利有明顯的危害然後照 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].start |
34482.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].end |
34490.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].text |
如果照95條又立即實施連一個過渡期間都沒有那麼相關的這些條文第四條先涉及到的相關的條文跟準備我們都沒有沒有些時間然後對這一些已經申請甚至被公告受理的案件的的的案件的申請人他們的這個權益是不是能夠得到及時保證保障因為第十九十五條這個規定我們覺得更有值得斟酌的空間所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].start |
34509.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].end |
34528.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].text |
我們是建議說真的能夠各位委員能夠三思請各位委員能夠三思這是司法院的呼籲他基於憲法法庭整個運作的法理面到實務面都清楚的告訴我們翁曉玲委員修的第四條跟現在的條文第12條是嚴重的漢格的司法院都說的這麼清楚了翁委員您視而不見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].start |
34537.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].end |
34556.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].text |
你繼續不予理會嗎?您的名言就是我就是比你大對不起沒有立法權沒有就大於司法權大法官的審理規則就是立法院自己可以定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].start |
34559.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].end |
34577.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].text |
只有兩個條文但他對於臺灣的憲政體制會產生翻天覆地的毀滅好我就較於第九十五條當初九十五條現行的條文是給予司法院一個合宜的施行日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].start |
34580.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].end |
34584.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].text |
因為剛剛第四條你完全沒有辦法回答我的問題剛剛第四條吳角緯不讓我發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].start |
34590.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].end |
34594.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．完整會議委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].start |
34620.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].end |
34620.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].text |
你剛剛不是問翁委員嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].start |
34649.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].end |
34678.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].text |
我請他回答的時候他沒有辦法回答不敢回答然後呢我進入其他的部分他就出來亂好我請舉主席要公正主持第九十五條我請教副秘書長喔原來的條文現行條文是本法自公布後三年後施行然後施行日期是司法院以命令定之當初之所以這樣定的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].start |
34679.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].end |
34700.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].text |
因為憲法訴訟法當時制定以後有一些相關的配套的一些的包含執法包含規範那麼都需要去做準備所以說他需要一些時間那到底所以需要用4%覺得成熟的時候用命令去訂所以當時訂定的那我們也是說這一次95條這個修正我們覺得因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].start |
34704.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].end |
34707.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].text |
因為那個95條修正憲法第四條本身我們也是建議說能夠再做詳細的斟酌那麼95條要立刻再讓它立即實施我們覺得說真的對司法院來講將來是非常的艱困 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].start |
34722.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].end |
34736.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].text |
所以第四條跟第九十五條都是連帶有關聯性的因為第四條很清楚的講當初憲訴法修的第四條你們就要有時間去由司法院的大法官來議定什麼呢憲法法庭的審理規則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].start |
34737.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].end |
34758.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].text |
所以我剛說的你們花了一些時間去把這個審理規則完整的配套做出來有9個章節有74個條文他需要時間不是立委這麼粗糙修了幾個條文之後然後馬上倉促的就本法制施行日來施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].start |
34759.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].end |
34780.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].text |
不顧整個配套不管整個司法院能不能夠針對你們這樣無裡頭破壞憲政秩序的修法還要強逼人家馬上上路我希望透過這段質詢能夠藉由司法院副秘書長的說明非常清楚的告訴我們只有兩個條文的憲訴法它對於整個釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].start |
34785.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].end |
34810.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].text |
的程序都會產生非常嚴重嚴重的挑戰這就是憲政危機的到來不要以為它只是兩個條文不要以為只是新增了幾個字它的殺傷力如此之大我希望司法院繼續努力的來訴求跟說明當您的管理讓人們親吻打呼你歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].start |
34813.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].end |
34825.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].text |
最大的理解他自以為自己比誰都大的立法委員隨便寫了幾個條文幾個字就管到你家的大法官審理規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].start |
34827.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].end |
34828.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].text |
我第一輪先發言到這裡我稍後還有第二輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].start |
34854.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].end |
34855.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].start |
34879.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].end |
34890.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].text |
議事規則3.3條第二項已經不確規定你不要總和我討論我的新書新書的結果是給我剝奪你本來是叫我 說不通 翁曉玲委員他提案委員給他先說是這樣 不然你本來就叫我說這樣你現在 你是跟我有關係嗎不然你什麼都不跟我說 你跟我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].start |
34907.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].end |
34910.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].text |
我沒有講我的,我才講幾個字啊,我說為什麼不讓我講啊?你讓我回答好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].start |
34930.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].end |
34931.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].text |
可不可以讓我把話說完 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].start |
34952.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].end |
34955.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].text |
主席我坐這邊可不可以發言我都還沒講我哪有煩我還沒講啊我還沒講欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].start |
34977.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].end |
34989.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].text |
中委員你問我問題我是不是要解釋要回答對不對但是我我面對你我每次你問我問題我每次講幾個字你又打斷我不是我打斷因為你都亂回答阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].start |
34990.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].end |
35014.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].text |
沒關係,那你至少聽我把亂回答講完嘛趕快亂答我現在先回答一下依據議事規則第33條第二項那各位有興趣可以去翻一下條文那出席委員是可以提出停職討論的動議那今天有出席委員已經提出來了他們是在那個吳世耀委員說話的時候就已經拿給我了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].start |
35014.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].end |
35041.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].text |
所以今天我也是尊重吳思耀委員我在他講完之後我才開始處理這個動議嘛那我就是依據議事規則三條第二項我跟你講你們講的沒有錯啊你說為什麼不讓你一個個講完但是今天議事規則規定在這裡我依據議事規則主持會議我真的也不知道該怎麼辦主席你剛剛竟然可以等到吳思耀講完你也等到我講完嘛我現在換到這邊坐我應該可以講了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].start |
35042.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].end |
35064.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].text |
你說雙方 雙方打雙方 主席啊 你們不要這樣 我再說一次 吳士耀委員開始講之後 他們提了這個動議出來 那我現在等吳士耀委員講完之後 我現在在處理這個委員提案的動議 那我依據的規定是議事規則33條第2項 主席 你那個議事規則33條你已經講過很多次 我來反駁你一下 我來再還原一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].start |
35070.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].end |
35070.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].text |
委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].start |
35090.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].end |
35096.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].text |
你剛剛吳世耀委員在講的時候你的動議你沒有處理阿表示你是有權利決定這個動議何時處理的阿現在講了幾人次阿?兩個人次兩個人次就又被沒收了你坐錯邊了啦 坐在這邊啦沒關係好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].start |
35112.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].end |
35120.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].text |
各位不要干擾議事如果大家對於議事規則有意見我歡迎大家去修法好不好修法完整之前我們就依據議事規則33條第二項去處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].start |
35136.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].end |
35144.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].text |
主席按照議事規則會議詢問主席主席我按照議事規則我現在來做一個會議詢問好不好主席主席主席主席主條主條你問我到底要不要發言我剛有舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].start |
35161.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].end |
35186.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].text |
站成提案的請舉手主席你這個不對啦主席你這個沒有素養啊這樣怎麼可以呢主條討論我舉手你不讓我發言這是什麼意思主席反對提案的請舉手可以了可以放下了放下請放下反對提案的請舉手我們要發言的請舉手我也舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].start |
35188.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].end |
35197.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].text |
反對提案的舉手不是那個蔡委員你不行啦請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].start |
35208.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].end |
35228.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].text |
為什麼害怕討論?又要沒收討論?為什麼害怕討論?為什麼害怕討論?怎麼會逐條?贊成則五位,反對則五位。贊成反對者同訴,可否同訴時取決於主席。現在主席決定是贊成,所以在場出席委員11人,贊成6人,反對5人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].start |
35231.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].end |
35236.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].text |
戰爭者多數通過。第九十五條停止討論並保留。現在有收到林師妹米委員所提的復議動議。請宣讀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].start |
35252.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].end |
35259.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].text |
針對立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（一）事由．併案審查一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具《憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].start |
35273.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].end |
35277.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].text |
委員會所作之都將提出副意並且提出副意動議提案由委員會主席提供,然後會議在議會議員審查令宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].start |
35285.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].end |
35293.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].text |
憲法訴訟法亂修一通你們根本不敢討論不敢面對不敢面對不敢討論只會沒收討論只會沒收討論只會沒收討論只會沒收討論不要偷偷摸摸好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].start |
35309.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].end |
35330.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].text |
在院會討論時由吳釗偉中線出席說明那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理那麻煩把那個副議動議印給大家先麻煩印給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].start |
35335.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].end |
35337.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].text |
有臉阿有臉阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].start |
35362.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].end |
35363.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].start |
35378.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].end |
35385.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].text |
反對主席這樣粗暴的主持都不給討論只會表決不給討論只會表決不給討論只會表決主條都沒有主條啊完全沒有給予討論充分的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].start |
35405.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].end |
35429.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].text |
早上我就問你說有沒有機會給我排公聽會你說你不反對不敢嘛你自己不排你連我排都不讓我排作為委員會有異議不異這個效果就完蛋了請問對於不異的動物有異議反對啦好那有異議的話我們用舉手表決的方式處理那表決前我們先請那個清點在場出席委員的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].start |
35430.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].end |
35453.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].text |
只會表決,內容都不敢討論現在我們開始進行表決,那贊成者請舉手剛剛提案委員馬上被挑戰,自己提什麼案都說不清楚自己提什麼案都不清楚那反對者請舉手反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].start |
35456.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].end |
35457.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].text |
太過分了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].start |
35480.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].end |
35481.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].text |
人民的權利一副開心的樣子 |
| IVOD_ID |
16188 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16188 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-6 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-21T08:30:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-21T16:23:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |