| IVOD_ID |
16187 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16187 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-21T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-21T13:27:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:57:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dcdd974dd956c7ad69b5fa2f296a935346059d4d42a7fce2133e892494afed5b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 13:27:00 |
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報告委員會：初期委員11人以主法定人數開始開會：請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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1904.861 |
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1931.488 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年10月17日星期四上午9時1分至12時54分地點黃樓301會議室出席委員陳永康等11人列席委員賴世寶等18人列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員主席王釗己委員定語報告事項一宣讀上次會議一事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1932.888 |
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1947.533 |
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2.邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況．並備質詢。．國防部部長顧立雄報告委員陳永康等21人質詢．均由國防部部長顧立雄．副部長博鴻輝．軍備局局長林文祥．政治作戰局局長陳玉玲 |
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1950.063 |
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1978.784 |
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空軍司令部參謀長王德揚及國家中山科學研究院院長李世強等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供之資訊請國防部與二周內已書面答覆本會全體委員並赴資本會委員令指定期限者從其所定三委員楊瓊英及劉建國等二人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報通過臨時提案二案宣讀完畢 |
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1983.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2002.235 |
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請問在場委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢首先我們先介紹在場的委員陳永康委員 |
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2015.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2018.474 |
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許曉鑫委員羅美玲委員還有今天列席及出席的外交國防委員會委員會的林佳龍部長亞太司司長藍夏禮 |
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2048.562 |
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2050.763 |
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亞西及非洲司司長賀忠義﹗歐洲司司長黃軍耀﹗拉美司司長鄭麗成﹗北美司司長王良玉﹗國際組織司司長孫簡元﹗ |
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2077.795 |
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2081.038 |
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國際合作及經濟事務司司長聯育平國際傳播司司長徐永梅研究設計會主任張雅光禮賓處處長陳欣欣秘書處處長洪正榮 |
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2108.732 |
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2114.757 |
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人事處處長黃麗玲政風處公使韓建豪主計處處長李佩華資訊及電務處處長林啟文公共外交協調會執行長劉永健 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2135.302 |
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2138.263 |
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非政府組織國際事務會執行長陳剛毅臺灣日本關係協會秘書長范正國臺美事務委員會秘書長邱高偉外交及國際事務學院副院長陳文宜理事事務局局長何振環 |
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2168.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2170.949 |
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國和會副秘書長矢立軍．臺灣民主基金會執行長廖達齊．PECC中華民國委員會秘書長許俊彬． |
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2194.96 |
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2202.588 |
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本日會議邀請外交部林佳龍部長報告業務概況．並備質詢．請林部長上台報告 |
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2215.513 |
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2233.334 |
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主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安很榮幸再次獲邀前來進行外交業務報告非常感謝大院和各位委員對外交工作的支持書面報告請參閱以下就重點說明敬請指導 |
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2234.78 |
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2260.967 |
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本人接任外交部長至今155天我每天都在算,要全力以赴帶領外交團隊全力以赴儘管國際的處境艱難地緣政治全球供應鏈結構也都在不斷的改變但這也正是臺灣外交最好的時刻與機會我們全力推動總和外交積極進行賴總統 |
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2264.768 |
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2292.507 |
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提出的價值外交的路線與經濟日不落國的政策讓台灣走向世界也讓世界走進台灣我們推動以民主為核心的價值外交以和平為核心的同盟外交和以繁榮為核心的經貿外交建立民主價值鏈對抗威權的第一島鏈和非紅色的信賴供應鏈 |
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2294.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2317.25 |
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我們積極規劃和推動龍幫計劃提出基於五大信賴產業的七項旗艦計劃這包括半導體供應、煉韌性、可信賴網路與數位治理、智慧園區海外示範計劃、智慧醫療、智慧農業、新能源與探泉合作 |
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2318.311 |
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2337.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以及主權AI我們依舊面臨嚴峻的外部環境與挑戰特別是中國對我步步進逼企圖塑造新常態並以混合戰的形態對我施壓在國際上鞏固一中扭曲聯大第2758號決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2339.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2365.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
前幾天之前又在台灣周邊展開針對性的軍事演習我們要再次感謝友邦和美國、日本、德國、英國、法國、澳大利亞、紐西蘭、韓國等多國以及歐盟對於中國軍演公開表達關切或強調維持台海和平穩定的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2366.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2387.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不僅台灣其他民主國家也受到威權主義的威脅尤其中國、俄羅斯、伊朗和北韓形成所謂的動亂軸心威權主義的擴張越來越具有侵略性已經是全球性的挑戰縱然外部環境與挑戰嚴峻 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2388.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2388.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
一﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2413.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2417.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
2.台美關係堅若磐石,美方高層透過雙邊及多邊場域強調台海和平穩定,反對以武力改變現狀的立場。拜登政府已經16度宣布對台軍售。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2439.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2455.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國會本年相繼通過《2024會計年度綜合撥款法》以及《2024年國安緊急補充撥款法》等有我法案明文提供臺灣不少於3億美元的外國軍事融資等 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2456.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2481.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
台日關係穩健友好日本政府持續重申維持台海和平穩定的重要性新任首相石破茂參加日本東協峰會以及日中領袖會談時都強調台海和平穩定對國際社會至為重要5月迄今也有超過60位以上的日本國會議員訪台 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2483.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2503.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
是,臺歐關係更加提升,歐盟對外事務部對於中國5月及日前對臺兩度軍演都發表聲明,強調臺海和平穩定的重要,以及維持臺海現狀對歐盟具直接的利益,反對以武力或脅迫片面改變現況, |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2506.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2517.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
蔡前總統應捷克公園2000論壇基金會的邀請出席年度會議並公開演說繼而赴法國訪問及歐洲議會進行會談 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2522.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2551.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
5.善用臺灣經濟優勢,拓展經貿外交臺灣具備數位科技產業和經貿優勢本部將善用我國優勢產業並整合各部會的資源也將透過行政院設置的經濟外交工作小組作為跨部會協作平台以議題式專案推動經貿及科技外交整合並協調跨部會工作事項落實部部都是外交部的政策目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2551.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2578.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
另外本部也在7月邀請臺灣的電動巴士、食品加工、5G網路、AI算力及智慧生產管理等業者組團前進巴拉圭進行投資考察並規劃運用各項投融資的政策工具透過以公代私、公私協力由政府扮演帶領投資的角色協助我國業者因應布局邦交國 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2580.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2606.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
6.持續深化新南向政策,創造互惠共贏。我們研議與第三國合作參與每日飛旅送經濟走廊。泰國政府7月起開放全球共93個國家赴泰免簽證,我國為其中之一。另外,我與菲律賓消防總署合作於9月舉辦第5屆臺飛消防特種搜救研習營聯合訓練課程等。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2609.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2626.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
其累積國際參與動能,國際間支持及認同台灣國際參與的力道持續攀升,如在本年世界衛生大會每日英加澳等15個理念相近國家和歐盟也為我們發聲。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2629.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2644.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
積極向國際社會發聲本部藉由第33屆巴黎奧運擴大國際文宣宣揚臺灣9月發布的本年雙十國慶影音短片民主和平繁榮的新臺灣也獲得各方的佳評如潮 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2646.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2672.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
9.積極提供人道援助提升衛民服務的功能除了援助烏克蘭重建外我們也積極援助各國對抗天災此外本部至9月起事辦有條件是線上身患護照辨明措施提供離島和偏鄉國人行動領悟的服務今年5月30日本人在此向各位委員提出了上任後第一次外交業務報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2674.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2699.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
勾勒出未來外交工作的願景和藍圖以及當前本部施政計畫的八大面向請容再次扼要的說明第一我們將持續深化拱部邦交關係並希望從拱部邦交關係轉為繁榮友邦也讓友邦對與我維持邦交有光榮感 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2702.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2712.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們將持續提升與我理念相近和友好國家的實質關係,立足印太,放眼全球。第三點,我們將持續擴大國際參與並做出具體貢獻,尤其會加強反制中國錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2721.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2734.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
是,我們將持續強化及擴大臺灣與全球產經的鏈結,並爭取加入CPTPP,也將推動以人為本的新南向Plus新南向2.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2738.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2753.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
5.我們將持續提升我國優質國際形象,布局於全球,行銷全世界,也將持續加強結合民間與政府各部門外交能量,落實人人都是外交官,步步都是外交部。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2754.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2771.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
6.我們將持續提升衛民服務效能與品質,讓人民有感,也將持續強化外交同仁跨領域的能力,同時更加活用資深能力和加強提升年輕同仁能力,並增強各駐外管處區域性專業功能。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2773.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2793.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
7、我們將持續多元推動科技外交、人權外交、文化外交、城市外交、國會外交、醫療公衛外交、環境外交、體育外交、原住民外交、宗教外交等也將邀請賴總統本月聘任的10位無論所大使協助推動上述任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2796.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2817.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
8.本部將繼續全力穩健推動總和外交,向國際社會展現臺灣的堅韌與自信,強化臺灣與其他民主國家團結對抗威權主義,也讓臺灣社會更加肯定臺灣是可信賴的夥伴,落實臺灣Can Help,攜手促進世界的民主、和平與繁榮。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2819.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2825.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也期盼大院各位委員持續的支持並指教以上報告敬請視教謝謝現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2845.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2853.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情況進行處理現在請盧美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請林佳龍部長還有林務局科局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2884.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2886.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
委員長部長首先本是想要就這個新住民尊親屬探親來台探親停留的這個議題跟兩位做一個探討那新住民因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2899.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2900.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2916.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2944.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那我在想其實新住民其實很多都是來自於世界各國他們來到台灣之後也就表示說他們要見一趟自己的父母或是他們的親人其實是一件不是那麼容易的事情尤其是對於經濟條件不佳的新住民更是不能夠隨心所欲沒有辦法常常回去見自己的父母我就曾經遇過就是新住民可能好幾年十幾年都才能夠回去一趟 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2945.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2963.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
基於這個人道的這個考量所以呢賴清德總統在去年的時候就提出了六大新住民政見那其中有一個就是專案計劃延長新住民直系徵清署探親停留校期簽證對這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2966.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2988.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
賴清德總統有提出就是對於懷孕或育有兩歲以下親生兒已取得身份證的新住民調整或送綁期直系父母來台探親停留這個規定那這個部分的話呢我過去跟我們領務局也好或是說移民署其實我們做了很多的這個討論那我不曉得說像我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2991.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3003.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個領悟局到目前為止對於賴清德總統的這個政見有沒有去做一個規劃因為我們現行的法令是新住民直系的尊敬署申請來台判清的規定是每年不超過6個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3006.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3011.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們希望就是能夠比照外國專業人才研覽及雇用辦法像這個外國的專業人才他們父母親來台其實他們可以申請一年的校期多次的入國然後總期間最長的期限是一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3024.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3024.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
請問部長 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3038.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3057.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
報告委員有關於探親停留校期簽證現在稍有放寬是多到可以180天一次90天可以再延長不過陳儒委員所說 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3059.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3085.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為其實這個是有條件的是因為這個有這個兩歲以下的這個幼兒嘛需要這個照顧那這個適當的再去我們會再研議在這個180天實施的效果然後這個基礎上能夠朝延長的方向來做這個研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3087.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3114.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對為什麼會說兩歲以下其實很多這個新住民家庭其實都是雙薪家庭那新住民婦女呢生了小孩之後產後其實很快他們就要回到職場上面去那我剛有提到其實很大部分的新住民其實基本上他們的經濟狀況是不佳的那當然大家可以講說父母親沒有辦法來的話就請保姆啊那當然他們也希望就是說因為經濟條件不佳他們希望說自己的父母親可以來台灣照顧他們的小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3116.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3116.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
小寶寶還是沒有人照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3131.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3146.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為在這個兩歲以下其實是很需要被照顧的小朋友所以當初我們很感謝賴清德總統提出這樣子的一個政見那政見要兌現要實現當然我們行政單位要動起來所以我才想說也不曉得到目前我們談論談論了這麼久到底有沒有進度所以部長您剛才答覆就是說我們會朝這方面來做修法嗎是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3156.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3165.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我的理念跟委員是一致的因為我們現在少子化那有這個新移民啊他 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3166.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3167.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3189.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3208.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們當然要來落實賴總統他的一個主張但是程序上怎麼去跨部會來協調來進行相關的法令的修改我們會在委員的這個指導之下一起來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3208.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3234.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
OK好謝謝部長的這個回覆喔因為像過去的話很多新住民朋友都告訴我們說常常看到就是說父母親的護照上面那簽證上面就是會蓋了一個不得延期這部分可能大家要留意一下如果說來了三個月不得延期也就只有三個月這部分可能要請我們有關單位可能這個部分要來討論一下不得延期你就是不得延期移民署也沒有辦法去做延期這個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3235.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3255.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對,因為他們依法行政嘛,我們的同仁很認真的啦,但是很多政策是需要政務官基於各種的綜合評估,所以我剛剛沒有讓他講話,我自己講,目的就是說我的方向跟委員是一致的,這也是我想賴總統他的政策的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3256.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3283.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝部長也希望期待賴清德總統的新住民政策都能夠一步一步的來做這個實現接下來我要跟那個局長請回座部長再來我想請教的就是南非在上個禮拜四就有傳出就是南非政府要求台灣駐南非代表處撤出它的這個首都Petrolia 像這個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3284.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3307.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
因為我看到報導說是沒有可以協商的這個餘地也就是說沒得轉換嗎?我們非得要搬離這個首都不可嗎?那是他單方面的說法我想如果南非是一個法治國家就必須跟我們協商而且我們有1997年雙邊斷交的時候我們有一個雙邊的一個關係架構的一個節約 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3314.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3323.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個本身就是有規定我們台灣在南非的普利多利亞這個首都設聯絡代表處 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3326.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3352.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
反之南非在我們臺北來設立這個就是類似聯絡代表處所以這不能夠單方面這個毀約這片面的行動我們表示抗議而且我們會據理力爭我們會持續的跟他們溝通協調來捍衛我們的權利這是一定要做的那部長可是我所我看到就是說他10月底就要求我們辦理了有給我們期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3353.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3372.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這是他單方的主張我們不接受當然我們也有成立應變小組做好各種應變的計畫基於我們國家之間是對等要捍衛我們的主權跟尊嚴所以我們都有針對這個事情事實上是從去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3373.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3393.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
中國國家主席習近平訪問南非舉辦金磚峰會到今年9月初中國中非合作論壇他們持續在施壓最近也看到包括南非聯合政府國會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3395.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3424.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
也公開表示反對這種沒有經過協商片面的行動他們的國內的媒體也是一樣認為這是一個羞恥對他來講南非的媒體認為南非政府是他們南非的一個羞辱所以各種聲音都出來了更何況包括美日等理念相近的民主國家他們也陸續在表達關心跟支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3425.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3452.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
是,部長剛才提到就是說之前就是因為南非跟這個中國他們開了這個這個會議之後金磚會議之後的態度就開始有很大的這個轉變那剛剛部長你有提到所謂的羞恥其實你覺得是中國利用這個方式來羞辱台灣的那有沒有擔心就是說往後會有所謂的骨牌效應,會不會? |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3455.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3459.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們會做好應變那中共的壓力是無所不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3460.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3486.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那對於即使我們沒有正式邦交國家的對象也不斷的施壓那他們的手段很多包括透過一些這個利益的一個包括像這種所謂的貸款那這造成的債務陷阱而因此控制了他們國家一些人士那這個已經不是單一個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3488.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3514.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們當然是會密切的注意跟妥善的來因應說實在中國是已經領證就像剛剛您所講的可能就是讓他們陷入這個貸款的這個陷阱裡面那當然中國之前推這個一帶一路很多國家其實就陷入了這個陷阱當中所以我剛剛有提到就是說會不會中國抓著這一點呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3514.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3515.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3535.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3546.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
臺灣甚至臺灣的人民還有我們的臺商像這個的話我們有什麼因應之道啊我們比較擔心除了這南非之後以後會不會一個一個接一個的代表處被迫要求離開會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3548.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3564.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們當然都全面的在掌握各國的情形那基於外交捍衛我們的國家的主權跟尊嚴那也基於對等的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3565.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3593.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以我們台灣其實跟南非的關係我想台灣對他們的協助以及在不管是經貿、文化各方面的幫助他們的國人也都知道那為什麼少數的執政者他們就是屈從中共的壓力那我們會做好因應那因應的方法我們會隨著這個事件因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3594.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3618.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
他們說要強迫我們簽管是10月30號所以我們不管是在南非我們管處的各種因應還有我們整個外交部政府各單位也會針對這個部分我們已經擬好對策那會一步一步的來對應這個事件的發展但我們希望說各種聲音出來之後其實南非現在是聯合政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3619.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3642.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以現在這個所謂的GNU的這個團結的國家的這個政府它是跨黨派OK好謝謝看起來台灣的國際處境是越險這個困難艱難那現在我們要面對是中共的諮詢戰、輿論戰甚至現在還要面對心理戰這算是心理戰的一部分未來還有法律戰所以這部分外交部真的辛苦了大家加油謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝羅美林委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3652.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3654.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
接下來我們請陳永康委員上臺諮詢請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3682.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3698.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
委員長剛才聽取了您的報告這中間特別強調了我們所有的同仁都是外交官都承擔了責任跟使命那麼對我們國家的理念以及我們國家的長處我們希望向外推展 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3699.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3725.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那我特別今天就您前面報道提到的我們幾個有關的五大信貸產業的七項旗艦計劃這個裡面部分我可能要請教一下有關於我們有關資訊或者向國際推展的業務是不是也請資訊跟電務處處長以及這個郭赫思司長一起我們來探討一下各位看一下這張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3728.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3755.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們今天所活的這個世界可以說網路一線牽天涯若比鄰雖然目前跟我們維持邦交的12個國家包括非聯合國的梵蒂岡但是我們所有駐外的代表處這裡面人才輩出只是沒有正式的大使館的頭銜因此在這個情況下我們要建立一個AI網路的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3756.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3769.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
要善用AI我今天特別根據您提出來的這幾個7個主要的半導體供應鏈的韌性可信賴網路數位治理智慧園區海外示範計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3770.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3796.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那麼智慧醫療智慧農業新能源跟探權合作最後主權AI這個裡面對駐外人員來推廣來講是一個很重大的責任所以我們在這個議題中間我們先建議在駐外我們的外交學院開一個短期的課程對於我們未來要外派的人員對AI的概念跟運用上有一個基本的概念我們先看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3801.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3806.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這就是AI這是美國在用的他們講的這個AI的大資料庫因為你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3808.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3830.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
大比例的data高速的處理還有一些不確定的數據進來那不同的格式對應動態的世界變局有關地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略它的牽動關係這裡面一個核心問題啊就是說我們掌握的大數據那這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3831.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3847.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們希望在我們外派人員中間讓他有一個基本的了解所以對於你去做promotion去推展你的業務的時候論述上而不是口頭的AI那我們看這個AI這個AI實際上生成的非常複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3848.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3877.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那紅色的部分我們是參照國際的發展趨勢幾乎不是我們能主導但是在紅色線條以外就是我們現在努力要做的這個部分最後變成了所謂的生成式的AI如何不管是在醫療在農業在科技這裡面一個關鍵因素就是我們跨部會中間他允許你獲得的資料庫能夠能夠推展到國外另外就是AI的主導權 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3878.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3900.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這裏面限制因素很多東西是我們要自己能夠掌握的有的時候難免流於誠意過高但是在許多的限制因素上面晶圓的使用、市場的限制這個東西我們希望內部能夠發展出一個完整的框架最後用這張圖來說明因為剛好在上週我們的國科會 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3905.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3908.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
臺灣正面臨AI創新產業應用不足AI創新缺乏成功商業模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3928.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3953.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
企業數位轉型的壓力很大中小企業涉足AI創新的門檻很高等另外所謂的生產這個生成式AI是一種技術目前仍然需要這個設計的思考推動企業創新讓這個生成式AI真正落地因此我根據部長您提報的資料裡面右邊的這一塊我們做出一個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3954.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3974.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們的定義是國家或地區對於AI及其相關的資源的控制跟管理能力要建立這個能量目標爭取國家的利益維護社會倫理確保全民的福利方法針對AI系統的開發部署和應用最主要我們有法律規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3975.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4000.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
要制定法律因為AI是不可逆的雙面刃我們跟國際要接軌那我們在有目標有方法有手段呢運用法規與政策建立可自主可控的AI生態系統特別是AI的基礎建設自主技術開發與掌握數據流動這個東西才能跟國外分享那麼手段的第二是運用AI的生態系統協助國家產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4004.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4021.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4021.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4024.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
全民參與對話透明的教育化以全民共識協力完成屬於我們國家自主的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4042.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4052.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
以上提供部長作為向外推展以及人才培養的一個基本參考請部長您就上面立即做個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4055.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4077.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
感謝也非常的感動那個委員對於這個AI這個的了解跟這個就是分享那榮邦計畫的主權AI我們會參考委員今天的這個質詢我覺得這個非常的完整因為事實上未來全球化資訊時代就是會有除了資安問題以外會有資料經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4079.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4080.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
臺灣在這方面有強項 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4095.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4095.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
在於他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4125.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4125.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
電腦端 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4133.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4161.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個圖片是講美國的4個P在他的國務院是做的預防國際情勢在國防部做的是軍事準備那在國際市場是他要追求主導市場最後他的高科技部分他是要做保護所以4個P那在這4個P裡面他有一個很重要的因素就是剛才我們提出的運用AI做工具跨部會因此比方講在美國的這個國務院 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4162.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4183.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
在美國的國防部以及他的CIA甚至他在國會他都成立中國事務小組他們這個小組分析結果的東西是可以分享的那這個資料庫是一個很重要的那我們也願意在這個這個質詢完以後如果貴部有人這個我們這張圖可以顯示出來跨部會的協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4194.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4194.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4218.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4237.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
在成立國際情勢的變化也就是64x64我們可以產生40924096個不同的指標這個是做一個預警的參考並不是提供一個解套方案但是可以避免判斷錯誤的發生這個我們私下提供貴部做參考報告委員整個有關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4249.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4276.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
林的對國家戰略的這個整體規劃那有落實到我想包括不只是說傳統的軍事還有包括這些非傳統的這個國安的這些措施尤其是治安的部分我們其實在每一天幾乎是日常我們都面對到這樣的一個威脅所以這些因應的措施我們會來加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4282.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4294.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好 謝謝謝謝陳永康委員部長請回接下來我們請徐曉鑫委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我想我們先有請那個外交部林部長請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4322.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4340.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
蔡英文前總統目前在歐洲訪問請問就外交部的了解蔡前總統之後從歐洲回來以後是否已經有安排了赴美的訪美行程有關蔡前總統出訪的行程我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4342.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4369.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
應該是由他辦公室在就是負責那已經出訪的部分我們有協助這一次到歐洲我想是相當的成功不管是在捷克那在英國的部分是否按照媒體上面所說的因為我不知道是真的新聞還是假的新聞就是說本來有安排到英國但英國認為說可能涉及一些敏感的原因所以就請他下次再來或者是說有一些這個延遲的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4371.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4387.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我想跟英國的關係是非常的友好因為蔡前總統他本身是在英國讀書嘛那至於說怎麼樣的方式安排能夠呈現英國對於他的歡迎我想應該是會很慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4388.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4393.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
因為英國本身就是一個很值得我想由蔡前總統去訪問的對象國家那現在這樣的方式是很隆重歡迎的方式嗎因為時間的限制還有各種行程我想這個部分並沒有納入這一次的安排但是不代表台英關係有什麼樣的問題但沒有納入的主因是英國認為說如果今天蔡前總統來訪可能會造成他們在外交上的困擾還是有其他的原因跟理由呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4419.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4420.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
蔡前總統到英國訪問之所以會有一些異動是因為英國方考慮到國際情勢的原因與否? |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4437.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4439.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我想要問的是說有一名西班牙籍的男子奧納德在國外犯下了逾10億的台幣詐騙案在台灣生活5年 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4458.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4481.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那當然我們發現之後就要把對方驅逐出境可是新加坡因為我們跟西班牙沒有直航所以從新加坡本來要轉機但是從新加坡要轉機的時候他是以紅色通報對象被拒絕入境的那請問一下移民署在將人送往新加坡轉機的時候有沒有事先向新加坡溝通呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4482.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4485.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
當初移民署將人送往新加坡轉機的時候移民署有沒有先跟外交部 請外交部跟新加坡溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4506.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4511.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那為什麼會,如果有溝通的話為什麼會在新加坡的時候才知道要被遣返回來? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4534.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4553.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是涉及到因為就像你講西班牙政府因為他們跟這個新加坡之間沒有這個引渡的條約那你們事前不知道沒有溝通因為我們從西班牙方面得到的訊息是配合就是說你跟西班牙方面得到的訊息是可以從新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4555.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4579.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
實際上並沒有引渡條約所以後來我們一起配合那個interpol就是把他再遣返到遣送到第三地那你們當時在這個男子的這個轉送的過程當中你們沒有問過西班牙說是否有跟新加坡簽引渡條約沒有問這個是由內政部根據他們跟就是西班牙政府相關的單位他們沒有問也沒有諮詢外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4581.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4582.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以在後續才跟外交部確認請外交部協助的是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4597.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4621.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
到最後面當然是我們一定要全面協助順利解決了那我想請一下我們那個今天好像沒來是不是我們次長好像人不在本來想要請田光中次長的那但是呢今天我相信您已經看到新聞了有關於這個阿拉伯這個中東危機的部分我想要請問一下就是可以看一下下面這一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4622.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4642.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你先看一下右邊這個人他跟我們田次長站在一起合影但我必須說合影很正常因為這個人他在許許多多的地方都跟很多人合影但是我只是覺得說如果連我們田次長的合影都被有心人利用到外面去做詐騙的話那這個外交部也要負上很大的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4643.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4664.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
來我們看一下下一個請問你們知道外交部長你知道這個協會他是屬於官方單位還是民間單位嗎民間單位那他們是在做什麼服務的內政部登記的社團好那他們沙烏地阿拉伯駐台正式單位的名稱是什麼阿拉伯駐台他們代表處不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4670.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4670.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
沙烏地阿拉伯駐台商務辦事處 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4700.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4725.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我問一下那所以他可以使用chamber這兩個字嗎chamber這個內政部是就是他們向內政部登記不過如果委員講這個名詞這樣子是有可能引起你們早就知道名詞是不行的你知道嗎你們今天被問到的時候講的不清不楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4725.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4748.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
可是實際上外交部早就在112年的3月12號提出呢像這個沙烏地阿拉伯辦事處講到呢有關約旦阿曼及沙拉伯阿拉伯商業辦事處反映的這個阿拉伯在台商務協會然後呢他可能運作有誤導國人跟妨礙公益一事他附了20頁的影本告訴你說這是有問題的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4751.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4776.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
他們辦事處注意到這個ACCT上面有加了chamber一個詞還有阿拉伯這個詞讓民眾誤以為他是阿拉伯國家的成員而不是只是一個在地的商會跟組織跟委員會請問一下為什麼這件事情從112年我們的中東國家三個國家的這個代表處辦事處都向外交部反映但卻遲遲沒有下文跟結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4777.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4799.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那個委員因為這個是這個所謂的阿拉伯在台商務協會事項內政部登記他是合法的社團但是這個名稱引起了我們駐台的這個友邦他們的這個辦事處認為會有混淆是的啊那我覺得這個我們從文字上看啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4800.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4808.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
確實會引起誤解那你們要怎麼協助他們呢發發函就好了嗎過去發了非常多次的函可是我要告訴你的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4809.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4836.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
真的要拜託外交部要去幫忙這三個中東的國家因為我們所有在台灣的商務在中東地區都是由阿曼阿拉伯跟約旦三個商務代表處來協助我們整個在中東的國人那今天他們遭受到這樣的不公平的對待那被使用了chamber被使用了他們的國旗他們是沒有辦法接受而且多次向外交部澄清跟反映的再來我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4837.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4844.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
像這樣子的章,我給大家看,像這樣子的章,請問是可以拿來做文件簽證的嗎?那有收錢呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4863.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4868.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
對,如果有涉及到違反他登記的宗旨跟他的業務,那是應該開這樣的收據呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4873.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4895.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我的意思是說這個章是他們這個協會自己刻的去向民眾做文件認證的收錢自己收的像這樣子的一個所謂的商會在台灣打著外交的名號傷害到了我們阿拉伯相關的使節三個國家的代表都多次的向外交部提出陳情甚至更誇張的容我再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4896.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4919.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
更誇張的是他們過程當中還反被這個民間組織去提告然後呢被我們的中山分局因為涉及各自我不能拿給大家看我只能揮一下中山分局去把我們沙烏地阿拉伯的這個大使本來是要把他呢帶去偵查差一點人家的刑事豁免權大使的豁免權就不見了部長您知道這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4923.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4930.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我昨天知道然後我有要求我們外交部要來協助這些駐台的代表處或辦事處他們的外交豁免權那我們也呼籲就是相關的政府單位在傳喚或者是進行司法行為的時候必須要先部長您不了解因為他可能搞混了您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4946.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4951.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為這個東西他真假難辨他用了chamber他用了人家的國旗所以有可能這個內政部這邊他也搞不清楚狀況他就覺得說哎呀這個是真的大使然後來告這個假的大使然後結果呢反過來這個以假亂真了因為搞的最後呢是後來外交部發函給法務部說這個外交豁免權是我們要保護的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4969.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4985.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這個真相才被揭開可是整個過程中您知道給這些大使帶來了多大的壓力以及給台灣給中華民國帶來多大的中東的外交危機嗎我跟委員說明齁我是我感謝委員齁去把這個問題齁很詳細的說明第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4989.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5014.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
阿拉伯在台商務協會他是向內政部登記雖然合法但有沒有違反他登記的這個業務再來他如果進行商務那有收錢這些可能的這個爭議再來他跟駐台的這三個國家的代表處之間的紛爭雖然是法律的問題但是呢我們外交部站在一定要去捍衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5015.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5029.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
祝臺這些國家的辦事處他的外交權益所以這一點我想我是很感謝委員我要請外交部同仁不能夠只看片段要看整體因為這個有一點變成說怎麼是變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5031.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5035.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
而且部長我要跟您報告的是我今天講的都是我公開內容上可以講的那這些外交的大使他們私底下受到很多的騷擾是我在現在檯面上不能講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5054.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5068.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以除了我今天跟您說明的內容之外我希望外交部能夠更謹慎的去了解現在中東的這個危機比現在我所陳述出來的還要更加的嚴重而且已經是多年讓對方不堪其擾所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5069.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5089.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
不能過去我們都是以說呢因為這個東西是他設立的商會是NGO是他自己的這個協會所以我們無法可管反正他只要不要做什麼什麼什麼就好但我們今天已經提出了他有去磕人家的章去欺騙民眾去做文件的簽證而且這個協會目前有一個詐欺的官司正在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5095.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5108.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這三件事情都足以請外交部要求內政部去針對這個不合規定因為他使用了chamber跟人家的國旗嘛不合規定的這個部分去進行處理所以在這裡誠心的拜託部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5109.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5110.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5131.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5147.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們會妥善處理,也會跟內政部來討論,因為他向內政部登記,但是有一些涉及到對我們外交上面的影響,那我們會來妥善處理。好,謝謝,那如果有任何進度的話,再拜託部長跟我們做說明,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。謝謝徐曉新委員。部長請回。接下來我們請王定宇召委上台諮詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5171.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5173.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
謝謝主席麻煩部長秦林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5180.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5181.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
目前我們的住管正常運作中 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5209.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5235.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
還是留在首都對因為他這個片面的行動違反協議的內容所以我們還是依照還是留在普利托利亞這個地方所以我們國家態度是不搬沒有要搬是for now還是是現在而已還是一直下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5236.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5260.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果南非是一個法治國家他應該遵守雙方的協議如果有一些這個涉及到對我們管住人員安全或者是因為領悟事務的正常進行造成這個重大的影響的時候我們當然也會有因應的做法那個管住是我們的財產嗎是是我們買的嗎對我們有沒有做財產保全的準備有 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5263.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5289.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
細節內容怎麼準備我就不細問了我請教因為我們曾經發生過奈及利亞事件當時他們也是就是叫你我那牽的更遠他牽到800多公里以外那個約翰尼斯堡跟普利托亞還差了大概一個小時以內車程不塞車的話當時奈及利亞變成他們的政府派派警察派武裝警察等於把我們趕出首都圈 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5291.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5319.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
在南非會不會發生到這個狀況我們已經成立應變小組會做各種對策的準備那因為我們是如果說國家之間的法律規定他必須要來遵守現在是你判斷他的原因是什麼因為在稍早不久前中國舉辦的中非合作論壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5321.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5346.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那南非現在執政黨ANC的總統跑到北京去那去年這個金磚集團在南非辦活動習近平還專機到了那個地方現在南非突然間毀壞了他們自己所簽的協定不遵守他們跟我們簽署的法律文件你判斷發生這個事件是為什麼為什麼在現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5348.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5361.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
確實因為過去26年來都算是相安無事也是很正常在運作那從去年以來確實兩次的峰會那他們的外交部對我們持續的施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5363.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5381.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以這裡面顯然有外力的一個影響我想大家都了解就像說其實現在南非的媒體也表示南非政府他們是不結盟的政策阿怎麼會去受到外國的影響甚至是這個施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5383.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5409.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這一點已經我們看到不只他們國會議員連媒體也都發生了我先講他們內部因為ANC現在佔400席國會議員裡面159席並沒有過半所以他的執政聯盟是結合了DA嘛叫做民主聯盟嘛那DA有87席我看到DA民主聯盟有發表聲明要求執政黨要遵守法律不可以這樣對台灣那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5412.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5413.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
會不會有些成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5414.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5442.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為他聯合政府嘛就像說DA的這個國會議員跟他們的這個外交事務的發言人所講的你沒有經過內閣會議那新政府剛剛組成怎麼會片面的就是強迫台灣圈館所以他要求要經過內閣會議共同決議嘛所以這個事情他們內部有些問題那講完內部我來問外部他受到外部因素影響當中國北京一直施壓圍堵台灣這個是公開秘密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5443.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5461.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們也是有朋友的吼目前你有尋求就是說就我知道像美國的台北法案有把他們的外交的工具箱裡面的所有工具要跟台灣合作綁在一起目前我們台灣的外交部有沒有尋求自由民主聯盟的國家來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5462.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5491.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們持續都在尋求跟他們溝通然後也獲得他們的協助其實這個已經是過去至少這半年來很頻繁包括美國日本G7的國家美國日本G7國家有接收到我方的訊息他們有沒有出手協助我們這件事件有向這個南非政府表達他們的關切G7美日這些國家都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5491.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5520.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
每日跟G7的一些國家但是當然具體的國家他們表達的這個情況我就不在這裡說明那G7以外的主要國家有沒有也有像這個其實歐洲很多理念相近一些人權的國家歐洲相關的國家也有對包括中東歐方便透露讓我們知道好朋友是誰捷克捷克有還有沒有其實還有他們都有因為其實這些住 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5521.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5548.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
在地的大使館之間啊他們也會交換意見這些國家駐南非的使館替台灣發聲然後南非內部執政聯盟的第二大黨也有表達意見然後我們現在國家的態度是我不搬你違法你違反1997年簽的法律所以現在狀況是這樣子嘛那我方的反制作為之前我要問一下當然對南非動手我們就要想到隔壁的斯瓦地尼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5549.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5571.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這件事情對史瓦帝尼跟臺灣我們目前在非洲唯一的官方正式邦交國有沒有影響我們當然是有警覺到這可能都是一連串的就是要打壓我們外交的行動所以我們已經會加強跟史瓦帝尼的這個外交關係以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5576.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5587.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
施瓦帝尼目前還是用南非幣那南非州五個國家賴索托阿布拉巴其實當然南非佔的權重很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5588.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5605.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以我要提醒我們外交部都不容易我也知道你們都很辛苦但這個局勢絕對不會是每一次團結叫你遷出首都到約翰尼斯堡50分鐘而已實質的影響不大但是他後續會不會有其他效應我們外交不要注意那我們有沒有反制作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5606.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5620.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們現在都有因應的計畫,那我們就基於對等的原則,那我們希望雙方面經過溝通,可以有這個轉圜的餘地,但是我們也是做好最壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5623.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5648.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
劇本想定跟因應要讓對方知道比方說當然雙方你要我遷出首都你的也要離開我們的雙北嘛我們的首都圈嘛比方說他們在台灣我們有獎學金有訓練計畫比如說他們有希望農產品進口到台灣這些東西我覺得要讓對方知道說縱使雙方的貿易金額大概在18億美金左右佔台灣的比重不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5649.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5671.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
但是我們還是有能力做出維護國家尊嚴的動作更重要的美國跟台灣現在的關係在外交上是合作的美國有一個AGOA的會議那個是協助非洲發展的南非其實是很仰賴這個事情所以美國的他們現在選舉那他們的國會議員以及11月5號選完總統之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5675.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5698.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對於南非這件事情我們台灣應該要跟美國我們的好朋友提出AGOA的審查應該把南非這個不友善的態度列入我們外交部對這件事情怎麼看?確實齁所謂AGOA就是非洲機會及成長法案那這是美國很重要的對非洲的政策對他牽涉到金援啊協助啊很多事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5699.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5715.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們的了解事實上也有我們支持台灣很關心這個事件的包括國會議員他們也都有針對這個事情其實先前也有過一些發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5717.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5731.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那最近的發展應該會引起各界的注意跟因應我本期還是希望就是說事情不要往最壞的程度發展能夠有所轉還畢竟這麼久的老朋友了雖然南非對中國很仰賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5732.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5757.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那我們也希望事情不要發展到最後因為南非在台灣有很多英語教師他有很多在台灣的人在工作在這邊讀書那不到最後我們當然不希望去影響這些無辜的一般人但是國家尊嚴國家的利益是大於一切個人我們也希望在台灣的南非朋友們不管在台灣從事什麼工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5758.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5774.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
應該也要試圖回去讓你自己的政府知道不要做一個違反法律違反老朋友情誼的事情這是兩面的我們不能既要保護你又被你的國家傷害我接下來請教一下我們外交部對於美國第7艦隊先移到第7艦隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5776.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5796.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
在宣布說他們有承認20號他們跟加拿大兩艘軍艦穿越台灣海峽執行自由航行的任務自由航行任務最重要一件事情其實就如同他們聲明所說民主盟友的軍艦穿越海峽公海走廊超出任何沿海國家的領海 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5797.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5799.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況： |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5828.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5851.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們感謝所有理念相近國家對於台海和平穩定的重視特別是自由航行權所以我們我想包括G7包括我想特別是美國還有第一島鏈的國家對於這個台海的自由航行權的一個重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5853.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5881.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這是符合我想不只台灣的國家利益而且符合整個印太區域共同的利益到目前為止德國22年來第一次行經台海那英國啦加拿大澳洲啦美國日本日本好像也是史上第一次在上個月啦對於這些自由航行他穿越公海當然是航行的權利而台海維持公海的狀態是不利 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5882.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5897.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
威脅那一端我們在台灣有些人齁動不動就對台灣要求說台灣你們要主張和平台灣不要上戰場台灣不要軍備他就忘了發動爭端的製造動亂不和平的是侵略端啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5898.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5923.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
只會要求保護自己的人接受和平的準則那個是投降保護自己的人放下武器就什麼都沒有了侵略者放下武器才是真和平所以我們現在過去有一些相信的價值保家衛國守護自己的國家是正確的現在好像都會成為有些人口中嘲諷的對象那個扭曲的價值我覺得我們政府要義正詞嚴的去駁制但對這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5925.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5942.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
自由航行它航行這一個公海的走廊對台海的和平穩定當然是有幫助的我最後請教部長這些相關的自由民主的好朋友們盟友們 partner他們在進行自由航行的時候我國會不會事先知情就你的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5943.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5968.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
當然我們都有相關的情報交換至於具體的個案我就先不予評論這個我予以尊重那我希望在有關南非這個事件他正在變化當中而且南非國內的政治氛圍國際對台灣友好的國家的相關發聲以及11月5號後續的變化我們外交部要辛苦掌握主標這當然不能賭氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5969.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5969.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5999.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6000.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
有請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6013.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6032.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6034.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6058.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6059.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6065.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6066.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6090.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那剛剛部長講的是因為10月7號的時候他又再要求一次然後限期說一定要遷出首都這樣子嗎對好那因為這個這件事情因為畢竟它發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6091.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6115.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個祝孟買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6117.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6126.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6129.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6157.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6158.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6181.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些比如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6183.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6203.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6205.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6219.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6220.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6221.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6240.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6244.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的方式本來就沒那麼多但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關是國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6263.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6282.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
國防部有一些情報員的財產各自外流這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形一種可能就是駭客攻擊這個在外館之前我在質詢的時候已經有說過必須要加強資安等等之類的但這一次比較不一樣的是它也有可能按照這一個新聞的報導它也有可能是內部的流出 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6283.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6287.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6301.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6323.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6325.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6331.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這部分是我們業務的重點因為任何的外交部涉及到的情報或資訊都會影響國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6337.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6337.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6355.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6381.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而這個不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對對對對所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6382.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6401.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6403.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6428.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為這個不是第一次,我們第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來鼓動說明跟委員報告,那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6429.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6453.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公佈之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6453.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6477.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉啦那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作外交上的合作現在也慢慢要產生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6478.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6500.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以這個我覺得可能是今年我們可能特別需要注意的因為一般來講我們對俄羅斯的警覺心並沒有那麼的強那這方面希望就是說在因為接下來一定會發生很多事情那就是再請多加關注俄羅斯這一個的行動是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6502.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6502.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
警報網滲透全球 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6518.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6518.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
中國﹐他的這一﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6542.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6561.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
國外滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6562.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6563.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6578.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6596.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6597.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6617.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6618.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6618.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我跟委員分享一個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6643.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6666.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6669.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6692.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個是所謂的安全思路這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的很自然就是會因為在第一線攻防那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家大家來這個共同的應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6694.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6723.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有一些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6724.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6737.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6740.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6759.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
自我檢查如果發生這些事情我們當然如果瞭解說我們會看怎麼樣來協助也來做好因應對 因為怕說他可能現在單一個案但之後怕是有系統性的那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者他能夠有力量我覺得是非常重要的一件事那不然的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6760.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6761.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
確實委員 中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化 觀光也要武器化 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6776.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6776.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6792.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6809.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
中共這種數位極權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括價值外交同盟外交跟經貿外交外交已經不限於傳統的這個所謂的邦交之間的關係這個非傳統 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6814.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6815.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
馬文君委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6847.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6851.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
謝謝主席麻煩請部長請您部長部長早安委員早今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的這個部分我想請教一下外交部駐南非代表處在南非的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6877.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6904.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6904.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6928.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6930.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6958.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6959.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6974.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因為現在的NHCR就是南非的這個執政黨他是一個聯合政府也有包括包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6975.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6991.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那他也沒有經過跟他的聯合政府諮商就是這些政黨之間的諮商那又違約片面撕毀協議所以這個是很不正常嘛那這個過程當中我們大概盡了很多的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6992.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6996.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7021.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7026.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7039.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7040.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制? |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7062.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7077.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們已經有成立應變小組也做好各種應變的對策那隨著事件的發展我們會妥善的因應基本上外交是要對等互惠那如果有企圖傷害我們我們也一樣的不需要以對等的立場來做應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7079.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7096.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
部長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嘛我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7097.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7122.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7124.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7124.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7141.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7155.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管要不要簽 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7156.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7160.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行了我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7181.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7182.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
對於南非少數政治人物的行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7199.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7200.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
人家就對人家這樣啊 你這都不跟我說 人家就叫你洗澡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7215.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7215.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7236.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7239.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7252.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7268.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7280.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7282.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7285.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7309.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7315.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7344.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7344.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7372.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非的政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7373.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7381.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7382.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7388.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎不過他們做這個是損人不利己嘛我們就是害怕我們的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7409.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7412.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對寧加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7433.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7437.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使在 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7461.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7461.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
外交部長林佳龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7483.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7503.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
東歐國家我們提供了多少資源好現在提到這些國家我們剛剛提到的因為我們不希望我們面臨到這樣的困境這對我們來說不是只有外交部會覺得羞辱我們所有的國人都一樣所以我們不是在這裡要特別指責而是你的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7503.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7525.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
或者應該要怎麼樣維護國家最大的利益讓我們可以走出去而且可以抬頭挺胸從過去到現在我們一直一直一直在國際上面的地位或者我們甚至矮化除非有一些拿著很多的資源拿著很多的錢到某些國家或者對某些對象的時候他可以高高在上 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7526.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7535.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7554.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7558.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?目前我們所有的錢我們希望花在島口上尤其這個是給烏克蘭使用的因為我們要幫助的是烏克蘭所有需要幫助的尤其在醫療需求上面所以我們很關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7581.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7594.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
請 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7596.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7608.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單,其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供。我說現在進度怎麼樣?送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購。他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嗎?多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整次要提供。你會後提供給我們有多少數量?他從台灣採購嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7625.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7652.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7653.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7654.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
謝謝馬文君委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7683.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7684.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有請我們林部長請林部長部長好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7708.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7734.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
剛剛我們在這個地方我都有仔細的聽到都針對南非的議題那你說南非的議題要簽出我們的代表處要簽出這個非首都的一個地方那當然你說有機有機可循那這個有機可循我特別提出這個有機可循的脈絡在 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7738.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7759.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
去年的8月金裝國家峰會就傳出南非不斷施壓我國代表處要簽管之後不斷以聯大第2758號決議為理由的施壓這就是有跡可循為什麼因為有些國家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7761.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7786.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
議會及政要表態聯合國大會2758號決議無赦台灣其實這種宣示在國際上根本無實質的影響力但是結果我們執政黨的政治人物曾其在這種無實質的一個表態中在國內大內宣所以本席特別提醒我們的部長一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7787.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7799.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
外交部是一個現實也是國際在政治上的一個現實那我們就以南非的為例子既然南非以275號決議為由要求我國簽管 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7804.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7830.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
外交部也應應積極的應作向表態應該要表態2758號決議無涉台灣的國家要求讓我國駐館升級以做到實時對我們的友好這是第一點提示我們的部長因為這個是有機可行從金磚的會議到我們2758號 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7832.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7861.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
的這樣的一個國內的大內心那這些政治人物影響到你們外交部的運作第二個這位特別也講到牽管的問題他是在以我們南非行政首都普洱托爾利亞這是一個行政區的首都有三個首都這個是行政區的首都那他是非常的強硬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7862.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7877.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
要求10月30號簽管而且附帶沒有協商的一定所以部長這時候已經提示你應該有政治敏感簽管 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7878.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7894.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
如果今天我們還按照他是一個法制的國家最後我們要用他以交涉的法制在跟他們做這樣的議題的話如果他們是外界的力量影響到我們的外管 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7895.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7919.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們的這個代表處要強硬運作連得談都沒有得談的時候我們還要到哪裡簽簽到我們的這個代表處應該要積極的再進行溝通有沒有緩和的疑定還是到另外一個首都因為他有三個首都嘛但是今天如果他連談都沒有談的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7921.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7946.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
到時候我們連機會談都沒有機會那請問一下到時候我們顏面無光啊部長你來說明一下好不好我們有應變小組也做好因應的對策我們當然堅守立場距離力爭基於對等的原則我們當然也做好應變的計畫我們外交部也已經請住處正式復函匪方 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7948.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7969.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
政府基於1997年雙邊協議規定跟精神我們拒絕匪方無理的要求不配合將住處搬遷到這個其他地方但是我們當然知道這個外交各種發展包括等等他們是不是如果他們是遵守法治的政府那當然我們這些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7972.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8000.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
希望說他們跟我們能夠來協商雙邊關係那如果他們採取一些不理性的行為當然我要確保住處同仁安全還有服務僑民的功能能夠持續這個都是我們綜合考量所以剛剛委員說沒有錯他有所謂三個首都那但是這不管他幾個首都啦他對我們有這種不合理的這種要求我們先據理力爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8002.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8022.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們也逐漸有發現這個事情經過報導之後已經各界的關注包括他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨包括有重大影響力的媒體以及國際各方面對這個事情的關注所以我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8025.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8054.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以部長有稀可行這邊也應該也有一個中非合作的論壇有影響到這個我們跟南非的關係所以這個就是我們應該要趕快因應我相信你的智慧但是在國際的壓力裡面已經造成我們國內的外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8055.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8055.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
外交部長林佳龍報告業務概況． |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8078.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8102.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
謝謝委員的支持這確實國內不分黨派的支持政府捍衛我們國家的主權跟尊嚴是那當然另外我再請教部長我常提的就是上次你上任的時候我也提過在吳前部長也提過就是在有原民外交的這個部分當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8104.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8124.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們總統也好 行政院長也好 部長也好 你們都有聽到了聽到我在這一次的提出 就希望能夠原民外交目前我們外交的困境 也借用我們原民的外交在南島語系的這個國家裡面做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8126.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8145.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
前置的部隊裡面來做一個他們友誼的一個聯繫那當然有特別派出了兩個無認所的大使無認所的大使有兩個原住民一個是阿美族一個泰雅族那當然後來我一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8146.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8147.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8172.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8188.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
第一對我們外交原住民的母語的這個部分第二跟實質上我們原住民的整個議題他非常的了解而不是只有宗教的了解我想宗教當然是比較溫和 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8190.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8211.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
在外交上比較溫和但是實際上會碰到一個政治問題的時候那如何他可以他可以單單勝任我們原民外交所以部長你們要審慎的領先這個原民外交當然現在以及任派但是我也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8211.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8234.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我也希望你能夠審慎在請他們在外交的實質的經驗要傳輸到你這裡來你要實質的掌握這樣才會有助於我們原民外交這樣的一個任派無認所的這個職務的一個實際上的一個任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8236.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8265.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
感謝委員的指導確實這個我認為原住民外交是我們總和外交很重要的一部分那我在業務報告也有再次提到那除了無論所大使這個總統任命10名有兩名就五分之一是原住民的這個背景以外我們對原住民外交的推動我有要求我們外交部的同仁要跨部會要來做這個列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8266.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8286.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們這些不管是委員或我們外交部自己在推動的重大業務那事實上我們的邦交國裡面以這個太平洋地區就是很重要的都是跟我們有相關的南島語系的背景那事實上在像我們的一些友好國家像加拿大、澳大利亞或紐西蘭其實他們都很重視原住民的經濟社會的平權 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8288.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8289.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我目前在南太平洋有三位大使一位代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8318.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8344.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
根據駐外外交領事人員任用的條例大使及代表是可以做政務官任命的方式得任派因此希望未來如果有機會的話我國在南太平洋的三個大使大使館裡面有一個代表處能優先考量到援助民主來出征有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8345.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8370.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們來這是評估目前當然外交部有原住民背景的我們的同仁大概有10名我們當然至於說部外的人才我們也是密切的注意希望說能夠有優秀可以來代表我們國家能夠在我們的住處來服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8372.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8393.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
按照你們政務官的條例裡面也應該可以領選一個有認所的一個原住民的大使這是你要考量一下好不好因為實質上現在這樣拓展的話會有助於外交的事務以前有過就是這樣的一個斐濟我們派出斐濟那另外一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8395.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8422.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我在簡短的有關於中東駐台代表哀告顯外交危機後來這樣的一個當然這是一個非營利組織的單位裡面經過內政部的登記但是他們是以在中東裡面就發生了這種狀況要不是你們外交部行文給警戒要不然的話他沒有豁免錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8424.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8434.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那如何因應這些本來外交的危機,而且最後的時候怎麼處理的?你所謂的把關是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8451.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8453.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
主席再給我一分鐘那你來解釋一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8469.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8469.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
什麼問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8494.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8494.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
本席提醒部長還有我們司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8519.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8545.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
現在特別要謹慎要特別跟駐外的外交使節這一些提醒他們甚至非營利組織經過內政部同意而且登入在你們的外交裡面的入案的時候外面提醒他們因為現在我們處處都是危機如果一旦小事情就變成大事情國內就會大內宣 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8547.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8553.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
對我們外交絕對沒有幫助的好不好部長好謝謝委員提醒我們會密切注意謝謝黃仁委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8576.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8584.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
接下來由林一駿委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長首先請教部長不管是用中華民國還是用台灣的名義我們有沒有要爭取加入聯合國 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8602.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8627.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
還是要先爭取聯合國觀察員的資格再說呢?我們當然希望爭取成為聯合國正式的會員國那觀察員也是我們在努力的一個過程的目標那如果我們要爭取聯合國觀察員的資格那程序上是不是還需要由其他國家幫我們在聯合國大會上面提案呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8629.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8656.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
是 就是說我們當然包括他的秘書處這些作業那我們的每一次聯合國的大會也都會有我們的友邦為我們發聲至於說正式的申請這當然涉及到就是綜合因素的考量那跟時機跟方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8658.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8676.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為我看過去我們一直都是有一些關係比較好的友邦的國家願意幫我們提案但是想要實質通過加入聯合國的情況其實在票數上面還是還是要有一點相當的優勢所以部長那你覺得我們國家有這種優勢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8678.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8697.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
如果讓全世界的國家都基於他們本身自主的決定不受外在的壓力我想大家都很歡迎跟台灣做朋友這個是我們在外交上就發現說因為其實就是因為中共的壓力讓很多國家可能被迫或是說不敢去表達對我們的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8701.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8701.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8719.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8719.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8734.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8761.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
190幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8763.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8763.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
總共有53個是53個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8789.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8809.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
6個6個6個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8811.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8812.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
南非有兩個啦,因為我們在開普敦 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8822.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8841.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
本席這邊有幫部長稍微整理一下表格就是聯合國193個裡面非洲如果是54個無大眾數目最多的但是我們來比例來看我們在比例來看每週有35個會員國裡面我們在16個國家都有住管比例是46%但是歐洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8844.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8868.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8868.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8885.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
也是我們很重要的地區當然因為各種每個區域的狀況當然都有不一樣因為這個比例是差太多了你看部長你看一下所以我們現在也面臨了現在非洲上面的問題那是等一下我會再詢問這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8888.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8908.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那如果我們要爭取加入聯合國或者是退一步我們來說要爭取實質參與像剛才部長說的WHO還是IQ這些這兩個聯合國組織除了歐美國家之外是不是也努力爭取非洲國家的支持不然我們的提案要怎麼過呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8910.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8924.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
是,除了大國之外每一個國家都有一票當然也有這個安理會所謂的常任理事國否決權的問題不過我想幾乎啦我想以參加聯合國所屬的世界衛生組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8926.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8953.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
其實很多國家的發言都是支持但是我們之所以還沒有辦法參與就是一個對阿但是我們還是要面對這個問題嘛對不對對時機出現的時候就會就是會突破阿什麼時候是時機出現我們都沒有努力就會有時機出現大環境跟小環境啦我們這個大環境有時候我想國際情勢的變化有時候也是很快阿但機會來的時候我們要把握阿平常做好準備阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8953.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8966.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
其實本席可以理解因為外交部可能有其他的外交戰略的考量或許也有一些資源分配的考量但是千萬不要忘記我們在世界各地其實都有一些打拚的台商其實都是非常厲害的也非常認真而且幾乎都是默默的在為台灣拚外交就像剛才部長有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8976.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8979.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
其實他們長期在國外經商其實都有跟那些當地的官員往來像譬如哈羅台灣這種團體相信部長也是很熟悉他們都是一些努力在國外為台灣做國民外交的行銷台灣的台商然後另外還有像一些世界各地台商總會其實譬如我們非洲台商總會他們在非洲也深耕了很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9001.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9015.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以本席在這邊是不是建議部長未來在非洲的經營是不是也可以多跟這些當地台商一起合作外交部是不是應該也可以再深化跟台商這邊的共同合作一起在非洲行銷台灣爭取更多非洲國家在國際上對台灣的支持呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9021.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9037.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
其實我不管在什麼樣的身份我都很重視跟世界的台商特別包括非洲的台商會那一天委員也有出席他們在台灣辦的大會那歷屆的這些總會長我們都有很平凡的交流合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9038.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9064.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
非洲我是覺得因為國家多我們必須要有一個區域的政策所以我也從過去所謂的非洲的計畫我們希望能夠有個加強版就是臺非共榮的計畫那區域性的從就是我們以這個斯瓦地尼是邦交國然後再分不管是東西南北非這樣區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9066.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9081.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
的一個政策去做好我們對非洲邦交的關係那比如說我們有一些住處像我們在這個索馬利蘭我們其實在東非裡面扮演一個很重要的角色很多國家可能跟他沒有邦交反而需要透過跟我們合作來加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9084.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9085.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
蘭菲最近因為受到中國的利誘所以逼迫我們台灣把住管遷出首都 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9100.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9126.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
然後現在據我了解啦齁過去很長的一個時間我們台灣跟南非兩國其實都有很密切的外交關係來往啊所以我想部長應該是也是很清楚嘛然後在1997年南非跟我國斷交之後然後兩國的關係就開始持續的下滑了然後現在最難堪的就是連我們的住管都要求我們搬遷那請問部長你覺得南非要求我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9127.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9128.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
是中共的問題是不是嗎?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9135.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9155.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以其實這邊我們回顧一下中國與南非的關係我們現在來看這個事情其實是有跡可循的因為過去14年來中國都是南非最大的貿易夥伴南非也是中國在非洲最主要的出口國再加上9月初其實習近平已經跟南非的總統已經會面了還承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易逆差甚至簽了很多好多項的貿易還有技術合作的合作文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9165.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9191.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那據我分析認為讓南非願意加強對台灣外交施壓的關鍵也可能就是習近平承諾會縮小南非對中國的貿易赤字那今年的南非總統以40%的得票率當選弱勢的總統那縮小貿易赤字對他們鄰居國內的支持是很有幫助的那目前對於南非的要求本席看到外交部是打算要做出一些反制的措施對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9194.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9196.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
對所以這部分其實我想要建議部長我們應該還是要面臨這整個問題找出問題的根源來解決問題因為我現在是非常擔心欸非常擔心外交部如果真的動用手段會不會來反制南非那實際上是不是會讓我們兩國的關係更惡劣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9213.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9217.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
而且現在剛才有部長也有說嘛說像我現在擔心的是10月30號也快到了剛剛部長有說有成立了應變小組在處理這個事情然後現在進度到底在哪裡呢而且到底外交部有沒有隨時的在追蹤呢這點其實我們都很想知道欸其實我們也是都很擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9233.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9259.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們除了開會也有群組我們隨時跟第一線包括我們對南非的駐館我們也都保持聯繫我剛剛委員講其實所謂南非跟我們的經貿的關係雖然說大概就是一年大概十幾億的美金當然進出口其實我們是逆差的所以實際上對它影響是更大另外其實南非的整個國際的經貿它現在是債務國 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9263.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9278.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
他受制於中國一帶一路之後變成很多債務的陷阱那所以站在其實南非的國家利益啊還是希望跟應該跟台灣維持關係那如果有外力介入當然少數的政治人物也許他自己厲害的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9278.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9302.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
但是跟多數的南非包括所有他們的這個民意都認為說為什麼跟台灣的關係都運作的還算平順啊那怎麼26年的這個關係要刻意而且南非是應該是不結盟的國家怎麼會做人家的這個好像是人家的這個中共的這個打手一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9303.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9308.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個其實已經引起了很多的反彈了所以我們現在也是因為透過這個時間其實在廣泛的跟各界這個溝通部長我還是想請問一下如果10月30號你們的應變的話你們有沒有如果還是沒有進展會怎麼樣的處理呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9319.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9338.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為我們是有所謂雙邊的這個關係的架構那也必須要協商這不是他單方面可以決定的那如果他訴諸非法的行動我們當然也會捍衛我們的權利但我們也會重視我們的這個住管人員的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9339.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9358.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
還有我們這個這個僑民的這些領悟的服務啊我們必須要兼顧嘛剛剛有委員包括黃委員提到我們當然有其他的住處也是可以有一些功能嘛所以這個是我們都做好各種的方案但希望還有轉圜的餘地但是如果對方還是呢一意孤行那我們會基於對等的原則啊來做應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9363.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9378.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
其實我還是希望外交部還是要盡各種的努力要想辦法維持我們和南非的友好關係甚至或許會增加非洲其他國家的住管增加台灣的外交空間我想這是外交部必須要努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9379.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9404.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
是 我們總和外交當然實質外交的功能我們都還是會希望維護但是因為涉及到我們不能夠不對等我們一定要基於這個原則因為外交還是一個互惠這個對等的一個國家的行為這一點我們一定是會來捍衛也感謝其實包括外交國防委員會我們委員們對我們的這個支持跟勉勵好 謝謝部長好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9409.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9413.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
謝謝我們林議員的發言接下來由洪森漢委員發言請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9439.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9439.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
林佳龍報告業務概況 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9456.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9456.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9475.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9493.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方他會提出批判這是公民社會我們看到的常態很多這樣的團體他其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分他們其實最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題所以我還是想請你再說一次就是說台灣當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9496.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9513.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我知道因為我當時在國安會因為高英茂委員那時候在有同事所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解我在美國的時候也有參與美國的這個民主基金會所以對這個20年來的發展可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9515.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9526.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大台灣在民主跟人權價值上尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力這部分是很關鍵尤其是在要對抗中國的威權擴張的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9531.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9557.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這一兩個月的時間其實也有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論一些相關的議題那大家確實都還很關注幾件事情在9月25號的時候民主基金會我們通過了包括廖雅琦執行長執行長的人事的同意案那廖老師當然在過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定這部分在專業上面這是廖老師的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9558.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9586.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟包括執行長這邊來回答民主基金會因為他當在我們臺灣的整體的外交的運作上面他等於像是二軌的這個他算是個民間機構但是有點是我們二軌關鍵二軌外交重要的資產所以大家都很關心說執行長其實對於我們外交路線的態度跟總統是不是一致這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9588.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9614.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
部長你的態度是什麼因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9616.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9640.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9641.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9666.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家還是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9667.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9671.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得? |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9676.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9705.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
其實您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現你覺得如果漢革你覺得因為這是假設性問題基本上我們都是配合外交部所以不容易出現所謂漢革的狀態同時也跟您補充一下院長就是我們的董事長也非常支持我們做整體的跟國家配合的外交他也覺得臺灣民主基金會最重要定位就是在深化跟亞洲自由民主的NGO座 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9705.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9706.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
下一張再下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9716.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9744.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9746.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9771.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
跟委員說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路就目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9772.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9786.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
其實它是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦 陷阱 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9788.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9807.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那另外就是透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路像這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9809.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9819.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得一帶一路中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9820.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9821.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
一帶一路是威權疏散民主政營 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9842.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9865.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你沒有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9866.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9887.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9889.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9889.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9910.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9910.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9930.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9930.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9947.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9964.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
同意他會有他的企圖所以我的意思說我們當然不會說台灣是一個多人言論自由的地方我們不會說不能討論但我覺得很重要的事情是在民主基金會的運作包括外交部的指導下的運作我覺得民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9965.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9988.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
不能在價值的方針上面有所遲疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才再說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9993.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9997.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
十年前十年後確實情況越來越清楚因為這個一帶一路的這種威權輸出他透過所謂的投資事實上在控制也造成貪腐 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10019.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10042.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10043.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10070.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10070.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10089.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10091.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10092.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
林佳龍報告業務概況 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10108.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10134.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10135.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10149.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10158.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10159.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
最基本的原則是基於對等 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10185.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10213.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
任之下來研擬如果我們不做對等的策略的研擬可能會導致什麼結果部長那就是也可能會有骨牌效應啊然後得寸進尺啊那我們國人也不會支持啊所以我們一定是要據理力爭那最後他如果不遵守協議或法律是他沒有辦法得到國內外輿論的支持我要世界很大想要跟台灣交往的國家很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10214.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10237.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼。 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10239.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10261.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我覺得這個對等尤其我們在很多外交工作上面都必須基於這個對等的原則所以這不是只是一個簡單的報復或者是什麼是基於一個對等的原則如果沒有辦法用一個對等的原則來處理我們的外交工作的話它可能會造成什麼樣子國家利益的損害或者是對於什麼負面的影響我覺得這部分要講清楚對等的概念它不是只是一個口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10263.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10276.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10278.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10300.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這部分我覺得他的理由他的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦中非合作論壇他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10300.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10329.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
类似南非的状况他现在当然这是一个案例但确实也有可能在其他国家还会发生我们在心里面心里知道还有可能发生但这个发生的原因并不是因为台湾做错了什么事情而是中共霸道的行径持续的还在扩大之中这我们很清楚所以大家会对于接下来可能会再发生的状况我自己最后还是建议我觉得外交部还是要做好一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10330.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10350.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
預先性的因應而不是在一個一個案例出來以後那大家覺得又一個又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10351.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10374.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10375.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10398.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我覺得這部分還是希望部長要多費心在這相關的跟社會包括論述也好說明也好這部分是我們需要做的部長可以嗎對可以非常同意那確實我們其實世界之大喜歡跟台灣來往比如我們最近新設處的也有在印度的孟買這個就是代表我們實質關係對彼此都很重要我們中東歐國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10399.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10400.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10427.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10455.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我們堅持自己的主權是沒有錯的今天他不打壓我們只有一種可能就是我們不堅持自己的主權了他才可能停止對我們的打壓我覺得這件事我們要跟社會表達清楚這是我最後給部長的建議勇敢自信世界同行台灣是世界的台灣我們也要走向世界一起努力謝謝謝謝洪森漢委員部長請回然後待會陳冠廷委員質詢完畢後休息五分鐘接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10465.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10465.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
林佳龍報告業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10476.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10503.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
部長好委員長辛苦了這個已經都快要到中午了剛剛特別看到您的這個報告可以說這個外交同仁在外交上面的努力的成果其實在中國跟我們的國際困境上面大家真的非常努力包括報告提到從今年5月就您上任之後到現在才幾個月的時間已經有超過2300位的友邦高層或是理念相近的政要來訪台 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10504.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10507.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那麼我們也知道我們的前總統蔡英文其實在昨天凌晨也剛結束了這個歐洲行那麼他除了參加捷克的公園2000論壇然後呢還到法國啦比利時甚至於是第一位台灣的卸任元首到了歐洲議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10523.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10536.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
的總部可以說是第一位我們的現任委員首到這邊去訪問我想外交的同仁肯定做出了非常多的努力那麼本席今天就這個外交委員會的這個詢答也真的要給我們在第一線外交打拚的外交同仁給予最高的肯定跟鼓勵大家真的這一路上辛苦了因為面對的打壓本席在8月9月的時候特別到了歐洲幾個國家去訪問 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10550.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10550.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
小英總統﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10572.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10586.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
剛從捷克回來但是呢在總統出發之前其實就已經有許多媒體在放消息喔說歐洲國家有一些領袖啦高層其實沒那麼希望小英總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10587.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10613.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
代表現任委員首代表台灣代表我們現在的賴清德總統來出訪已經有媒體放這種風聲結果居然還被本席發現是就在小英前總統出訪前我們居然捷克發出了這個灰色警訊那這就覺得好奇怪了怎麼會在這個時候在10月11號的時候有這樣的一個動作部長你知道嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10614.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10621.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個捷克變得不安全嗎那如果不安全的話是因為中國打壓還是之前我們的蕭美琴副總統在就任前到訪也發生過事件啊如果是這樣的時候這個警示燈到底是怎麼樣出現的黃色橙色灰色那這個又代表什麼樣的意思呢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10636.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10655.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
是啦,這個容易引起誤會啦,什麼灰色警示明明就有改善啊,所以我看到也覺得有點突兀委員也有跟我反應啦,所以我請同仁去做一些檢討啦你用灰色,這個是不是比較傾向於比較相對安全嘛,然後又警示 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10656.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10658.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
警戒的國家才分成四個等級紅橙黃灰那也可以沒有不需要警戒的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10684.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10687.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以這個警示燈灰色的意思到底是警示是安全還是不安全那麼這樣的區隔到底是怎麼來的比如說灰色 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10705.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10722.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
警示表示提醒注意注意什麼有很多要注意的可能是比如說像東南亞國家有的時候會有一些流行性的疾病正在出現有沒有可能做一些改善比如說像橙色很明顯的他就告訴你說非必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10723.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10752.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
就不要去旅行了避免非必要的旅行橙色就是要注意旅行安全但灰色是提醒注意提醒注意什麼可不可以更明確否則大家也會覺得說那你有什麼好像沒什麼我也搞不懂比如說如果我現在要去捷克我是國人我到底要注意什麼那像這個部分的擬定有沒有可能更細緻尤其是我們都知道灰色就是曖昧不明可是你的提示又這麼的曖昧不明我真的有看沒有懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10753.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10769.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
各國大致上都是分成三到四等那我們分四等灰色是最輕微的大致上都是要注意一下治安這些最輕微的部長在這裡啦部長我們就是在灰色的部分我們就寫得清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10769.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10793.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那讓國人不要恐慌尤其是像面對這樣的狀況的時候如果今天部長沒有講清楚的話大家都會覺得說欸阿是不是要給我們的這個小英前總統要出訪之前出了一道難題嗎是不是讓這些惡意來做文章的媒體更有機會來借題發揮好嗎這個灰色是不是更能更明確但是我們都知道紅色 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10795.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10807.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
部長紅色是不是就希望國人盡量不要去對啊紅燈就是悟行啊紅燈悟行嘛最好是不要去啊好但是呢包括現在我看到的幾個紅燈就是烏克蘭北韓伊拉克 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10811.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10831.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
還有中非共和國以及南美洲的委內瑞拉這幾個國家有的可能是正在戰火那有些可能是疫情的關係或其他的狀況所以如果舊部長認為是不應該去但是部長你知道嗎我最近分別收到了幾個案例其中呢他就是因為國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10834.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10854.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為有一些身份的問題或者是經濟的問題我們領事局這裡居然是要求國人要到這些紅色警示區的國家請他們去拿一些證明可能是他本人可能是他的配偶那麼在本席接受到這個陳情之後去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10856.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10856.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我請來林副主有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10885.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10903.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我簡單跟委員報告就是我們所有這些警戒分級是外管在現地包括根據現地的情況跟根據各國公佈的狀況報回來的一些建議之後再經過地域評估之後才會去做公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10904.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10931.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那如果是被列為紅色的話基本上我們就不鼓勵國人去因為這個可能會有發生危險的這個之魚啦所以他是這樣子的那當然剛剛講的紅塵黃灰依照輕重程度不同的話基本上灰色只是善盡提醒那這個東西已經行之多年每三個月會做例行性的請外管報會所以它不是突然發生這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10932.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10958.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好我本期要問的題目很簡單就是說第一個前面剛剛我們已經調溝通過就是灰色要更明確但是紅色警戒區的部分包括理事局這裡或是部長這裡都認為紅色就是紅燈霧行但是現在如果是紅色警戒區國人因為比如說經濟的貿易往來又或者是像內政部營利署 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10959.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10978.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
相關的身份的認證那必須要到這些國家去才能夠拿到相關的文件跟資料的時候就外交部的立場或者是領事局的立場可不可以去那如果去了有生命的危險的時候有沒有可能做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10979.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10987.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
發布會的溝通來簡化這些文件的認證的過程避免國人身陷險境這是本席其實要問的第二個問題部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10991.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11017.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
就是說如果已經是紅色的這個警示當然安全是第一那用什麼方式可以來做如果設置到有一些要辦理的事情是不是我們林副局來研究一下就是比如說鄰近國家或者是用什麼樣的其他的網路的方式或是有什麼樣的證明可以來減少這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11020.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11037.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
因為本席追蹤這個問題就是因為陳情人他們就在委內瑞拉或者是像烏克蘭這種充滿了高度危險性的那麼當時外交部或者相關單位給的答案就是說那你可以在台灣有辦事處或者是有相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11039.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11067.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
可以處理公文件認證的單位但是我們知道在台灣並不是所有的這些沒有邦交的國家的友邦都在台灣駐有相關的辦事處所以在這個部分本席希望有剛剛部長的承諾可以再跟其他的相關的部會做一些橫向的聯繫不要讓國人非得到這些紅色警戒區去走一趟不然這個紅色警戒根本就是開玩笑當遇到真正要處理的事情的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11068.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11093.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
連站在我們的中央部會都沒有辦法給予協助那這個聽起來就會覺得很奇怪好嗎部長好另外一個本席其實要請這個部長來看一下這兩張圖是本席找到的一個是波蘭的便利商店的巨頭另外一個是索菲亞電動運輸公司的電動巴士我不知道部長看了這兩個圖有沒有什麼感受 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11098.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11100.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
公眾會有在現場嗎 公眾會的執行長來 公眾會 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11119.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11134.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
時間有限我就來講一下其實這個是本席在國和會的投融資計畫就是歐盈氣候高影響力的基金當中我們看到的一個比如說就是波蘭零售永續 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11135.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11158.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
融資子計畫當中我們投融資的言下之意這是什麼這個其實是一個就是現在部長非常在乎的我們國際上面的所謂融幫計畫也算是其中的一環就是台灣台灣can help對但是就會發現說你看本席這個照片一拿出來只有在國和會看到其實是台灣can help的一個實力我要強調的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11159.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11178.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們做了很多但是有時候我們的對內宣傳或者是對內的論述不夠我知道現在很多在野黨的委員一直在批評說我們是拿這個政府的預算在做所謂大內宣大外宣 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11179.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11180.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
來 部長 要不要回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11206.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11207.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
委員會主持國和會 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11226.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11227.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11247.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11269.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
產業的這個強項還有解決方案我們都輸出所以像電動巴士啊這個就是非常好的就是大家都想發展那台灣已經很成熟另外像這個對於他們的這個微創或輕創這些事情我們會加強那就是因為這個其實是公共外交很重要的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11270.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11298.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
對外交要除了只是用力的做之外我們也要對外來宣揚跟宣傳台灣可以help其實持續有在做但是不要只有國和會看得到其他地方看不到因為這樣子包括大家民眾在這些駐在國的時候包括我們的台商才有更多的素材跟更大的力道協助我們一起從一軌二軌到民眾大家一起來做外交好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11302.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11308.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
謝謝林楚瑩委員部長請回接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請部長請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11332.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11355.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11356.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11385.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題反而流出在外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11386.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11414.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這是操之在己的這不是敵對勢力在做的所以我們必須要知道說外交部也好有沒有相關的措施有 其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11415.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11443.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11444.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11446.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11470.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11494.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試射安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11495.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11496.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11514.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11535.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
也就是說不管是政黨 包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11536.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11545.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11546.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11574.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11576.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11601.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮,怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意,就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊寫出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11601.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11606.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同? |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11631.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11631.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11660.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11683.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對 其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11683.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11694.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11698.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11716.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11716.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11740.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往或許長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11741.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11764.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原則但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法一個中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11765.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11794.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
但是事實上內容是不同版本對當然是不同版本但是對我們來說對台灣來講增強台灣的印象包含我們是一個主權獨立的國家等等印象可能不適合再用一中政策這樣子的說法所以如果有機會我認為台灣的外交部可以跟各國來去通知他們說或者是跟他們表達說或許他們可以用新的這個名詞來定義這個台灣跟他們國家的關係我覺得這個比較妥當的是現在很多國家用印太戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11795.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11803.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
的這個對中的政策而不是用什麼其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯合國這個2458號決議美國的這個4點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11812.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11827.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11828.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11828.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
維持台海的和平跟穩定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11848.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11875.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這些理念相近或民主國家的共識那我覺得這裡面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11877.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11896.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不是針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11898.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11921.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這一個情形它是它的威權的輸出除了一帶一路最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的推動者所以這個認定也在NATO在G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的威權的擴張 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11925.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11941.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
已經對以規則為基礎的國際秩序造成很大的挑戰部長講得非常好基本上綜合剛才講的就是第一個當中國想要內海化台灣海峽的時候我們就把它國際化所以我們鼓勵自由航行各個軍艦來那第二個部分就是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11941.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11962.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
跟我們有共同利害的國家集團化也就是說中國他想把俄羅斯跟北朝鮮還有這個甚至是這個伊朗把他們在集體化他們情報共享經濟共享甚至軍事協助但我們也要強調我國的利益跟我們的利害跟日本跟菲律賓甚至是跟美國還有一些歐洲國家都是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11963.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11981.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的青老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11982.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11985.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12002.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12025.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12028.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12044.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12046.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12056.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12064.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12087.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12088.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12109.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12109.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12110.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
外交資源配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12131.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12158.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12159.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12188.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
可以建立更全面而深入的夥伴關係最近我們在開公聽會談到這個太空政策那印度的辦事處副代表就跟我們談到說那印度這個的太空計畫是全球最便宜的包含發射等等都是最便宜的所以我認為說其實跟印度的交往的時候經貿之外科技之間就充滿了潛力了那還是再次強調說重新來做盤整資源投放在刀口上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12189.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12213.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12215.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12218.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
好謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回那我們先休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12610.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12616.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那繼續開會我們現在請林德福委員上台質詢謝謝主席是不是請外交部林部長請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12640.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12652.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
部長你好部長你好我要請教齁因為民調顯示54%的國人阿主張台灣永遠阿維持現狀阿另外一份民調顯示如果兩岸發生戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12653.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12654.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12678.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12679.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
部長你有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12697.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12722.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
當然這保家衛國是每一個國民我想他的共識所以我們有時候是不管是國防或新防怎麼去加強就是說來止戰甚至讓他無戰這當然是目標但是如果我們沒有自我防衛的決心跟能力的時候也可能會引誘對方的發動戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12728.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12754.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
因為本席認為說國軍做好萬全準備來因應國家安全威脅及挑戰這個跟我們駐美的大使余大雷代表說台灣民眾準備好作戰是完全不相同的一種概念因此駐美代表余大雷接受媒體的發言會讓外國友邦與人民產生誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12756.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12757.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
你有什麼看法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12783.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12809.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我對於余大使的發言我後期詳細了解我覺得他講的並沒有錯後來媒體有一些可能有引用有出入的地方他是講說因為他被問到如果中國對台灣這個發動這個戰爭的侵略的時候那台灣怎麼辦他是他講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12811.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12838.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
the Taiwanese are ready to fight if China invades所以那個全局是這樣你不能夠去頭去尾或者說把這個頭尾顛倒據說好像變得很好戰沒有啦我們是要和平的啦我們是要防衛事實上我們要行使我們的抵抗權嘛這是國人的共識不然中共發動對台戰爭的時候那我們除了抵抗還能夠我們要另外的選項嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12846.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12865.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
因為他本身在那裡接受訪問應該要很嚴謹啦我有看過前後文啦因為他是10月4號的訪問接受這個福斯嘛他們的這個新聞台的這個訪問所以我認為那個發言沒有什麼問題啦就是說如果你我們切一段來看好像變成說我們在主當要戰爭不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12868.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12868.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
你的看法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12896.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12896.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我希望維持跟兩黨互動好的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12921.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12935.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
哪一個當選總統還不知道那這個是非常非常重要保持等據那外媒報導前總統蔡英文預計未來幾週這個內來訪問美國目前傳出選舉前選舉後兩種說法時機都尚未確定那我請問林部長你是我有聽聞蔡英文前總統11月 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12947.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12971.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
規劃出訪美國進行演講與喬介會面有沒有因為這個如果是蔡前總統他有什麼樣的規劃要由他辦公室來說明那我不帶了解那外界就是在好奇前總統蔡英文辦公室是否有向外交部提出需求協助安排出訪美國相關的禮遇事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12971.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12991.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
李懿的事宜有沒有應該講說其實包括歐洲啦美國啦很多國家對蔡前總統的邀訪很多那他決定什麼時候什麼地方有沒有到外交部去申請嗎目前沒有是委員講的那個所謂的在哪一個確定的什麼行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12994.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13014.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
2023年6月外交部在例行記者會上指南非治安持續惡化平均每小時有3人遭謀殺來提醒南非僑胞與旅客要注意安全據了解南非政府有針對外交領事館區特別設置警力24小時來加強尋守 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13018.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13044.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
故相較於南非其他城市比如說約翰尼斯堡首都然後普利托利亞的治安相對比較好那媒體報導南非政府要求我方代表處在10月底前簽出首都普利托利亞希望外交部繼續努力爭取維持現狀若沒有辦法挽回本行是希望說外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13045.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13065.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
要確保南非管署的同仁權益以及人身的安全部長你有什麼看法是對一方面我們當然是捍衛我們權益據理力爭不會說輕易或是放棄又是對方單方面的這個毀約的行為那至於說我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13070.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13092.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
住管的人員的安全還有就是說我們在南非的這些領務工作我們當然會考慮到怎麼樣能夠延續不中斷不中斷最重要但是就是說那些住管因為他們現在所住宅地他們現在那個地方是比較安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13093.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13098.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
大使館區嗎對啊要是讓你們遷移的話你們真的要盡量去維護讓他能夠再維持原來的這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13108.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13123.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我們現在還是在具體力爭中啊沒有說就是逃避他片面的違約的要求啊那其他各國在那裡設管處有沒有這樣的要求有沒有還是唯獨只有針對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13124.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13144.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
因為大家知道背後是因為中共的壓力嘛這個其他國家當然不一樣阿我是希望外交部盡力全力去維護我們外管他們這些住宅人員阿他們的安全這個是最重要的謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林德浦委員部長請回好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13151.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13155.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
接下來我們請羅許廷委員上台質詢好謝謝主席外交部長有請有請外交部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13172.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13182.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
部長午安這幾個重大時事請教一下外交部的一些意見當然剛剛前面很多委員也關心我們的余大雷大使說我們已經做好準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13183.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13211.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
這個面對戰爭我們要學習烏克蘭不需要美國的援助這個事情不是遇到侵略的時候大家要不要迎難而上的問題當然要迎難而上啊有誰會不保衛自己的國家呢對不對所以我是覺得外交部在評論這件事情的時候不要放錯重點大家都要迎難而上可是我覺得這件事情最大的問題是講不需要美國援助這是一個很大的事情請問部長不依靠美軍美軍不用出兵是否已經成為我們中華民國外交部的官方立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13212.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13229.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
根據《台灣關係法》美國如果是要能夠來提供台灣自我防禦的能力以外當然也有相對應的所謂六項保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13230.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13258.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
在政治上來講尤其是國內安定民心的角度來講大家都期待尤其是民進黨政府執政的期間對不對除了抗中保台之外我們也是全球所謂的民主大聯盟的重要議員從美方的角度來出發讓重要民國維持民主國家的地位避免中共的擴張是不是美國重要的國家戰略意義很重要應該是很重要對不對對所以在過去我們所看到的所有的宣傳啊語言上是不是都說他們會支持我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13259.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13267.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那現在中國大陸這邊大軍壓境對不對動輒文攻武嚇萬一真的哪一天走到戰爭的時候我們真的不需要美軍的幫忙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13268.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13280.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們很希望美軍能夠協助台灣來對抗這個中國的侵略啊很希望啊你講我們要學烏克蘭不需要哪一個才是真的而且各種的法律通過的還有這些撥款相關的這些包括他們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13291.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13306.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
參眾兩院通過的法律那個都是有效的當真正遇到大型的國際衝突甚至到戰爭的時候當然很多的情勢就會改變了我現在問外交部的是這到底是不是我們的官方主張因為余大雷是重要的角色他在美國的福斯新聞受了專訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13306.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13311.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
因為大家很關心我詳細看過他的訪問我覺得他講的也是就是說台灣有自我防衛的能力如果中共侵略台灣那我們當然要抵抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13322.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13342.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
有一套的說法就大概在媒體輿論上面講叫以美論也就是說大家在挑戰說他們真的會出兵嗎?真的會大力協助嗎?大家就扣這個是以美論對不對那現在是等於我們中華民國最外對外的正式的官方代表等於在唱和之間不用不用來所以我講這是很嚴重我希望部長你做好準備啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13343.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13362.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
你現在在美國人面前他如果是我們重要的盟友如果民主大聯盟的戰略價值那是不可動搖的那從重要民國的國家安全國家立場裡面你當然要在美國人面前積極主張嘛你當然要主張必要的時候你當然要出兵協防因為這是這是避免威權國家極權擴張的重要的防線 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13363.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13382.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我們要不要做這樣的主張部長當然自助人助嘛我們一定要自己就是說要有這個保護自己的這個決心跟能力嘛那我們的友邦他們也一定會來協助我們嘛來維護我們這個民主自由我覺得你今天的回答沒有很有底氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13383.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13405.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
剛好明明大雷公使在外面受訪是在福斯新聞馬上現在是美國大選川普又曾經講這個我們是絕對不會出兵的你如果今天我們的官方立場不講清楚不積極主張沒有啦他沒有講絕對不出兵啦你很難去認你很難去不讓大家去聯想這是被押寶而且是順應我再次強調既然美國是我們重要的盟友 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13406.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13423.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們都要維繫兩邊的關係是我們都完全支持也不會反對我們都希望外交人好好發揮但是問題就是支持不代表你要百分之百順應啊我很擔心這樣子的言論你講這樣的言論也許背後有一些外交上的戰略考量還是說部長你要分享一下他這樣去講 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13424.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13438.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
請問對我國國家利益有什麼具體的幫助背後的戰略考量是什麼你如果在這一部分你可以講出一套論述一套說明讓國內的民心可以安定那也就算了是但看起來從你剛剛答詢是講法條的東西或什麼的我提醒部長這個事情要 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13439.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13468.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我跟委員報告其實我們過去跟川普政府跟拜登政府都有很好的合作而且美國是參眾兩院跨黨派支持台灣他們都已經把支持的話講得這麼清楚了為了安全要全球共同這是全世界的事情不是我們自己的事情是全世界的事情這樣才能夠最大化這個國際上對我們的支持跟聲援才能夠最大化我們國家安全的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13468.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13491.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我們期待看到外交部的立場是這樣台灣是全世界的事情但是全世界包含具體的軍事協助你不能夠自己講自己自結武裝這是不對的外交在戰場上自己武裝是不對的這一定要小心為之這重點不是我們要不要對抗當然要對抗人家都親門他戶了每一個人這是我們國民的義務可是全世界也要幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13492.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13518.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
全社會防禦這個任性的加強就是我們的決心之一從余大連的講話到全社會什麼防禦動員任性就是學烏克蘭他們有幫烏克蘭嗎這就是我們擔心的事情嘛所以請積極主張好不好這是我非常重要的提醒第二個重要的時事這個今天上頭版阿拉伯組織了一個非官方的詐騙集團然後反過來告我們正式住在這邊的大使 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13519.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13538.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那不是笑話一則嗎?部長我知道你前面也回答過剛剛徐小青委員有關心對不對你講說你會積極處理是人民團體的登記當然主責是在內政部嘛主責在內政部的時候這個以NGO為名義來登錄可是請問他最近這段時間做的是包含說他可以提供文件認證以及商務開拓這個是NGO的工作嗎?部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13539.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13559.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
其實他有向內政部登記為社團他如果違反了他登記的這個目的那有進行這個商務的行為是不是明確的違法這個如果違法就要辦啊要辦對不對司法機關還有就是大家就是要他跟台灣人民是有受害人那個在官司進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13560.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13571.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我們這個部分是屬於就是說因為我們那個駐台的這三個代表處或辦事處嘛他們有被這個司法這個包括警察所謂的要傳訊的我們這個部分我們要確保這個外交豁免權啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13578.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13594.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
國際機關對於外交後面的概念不夠清楚這是另外一回事但現在問題是這個這個為組織在外面繼續招搖撞騙對不對前面也不是我們也是要有證據啦讓外交部你們跟內政部現在有沒有商量要怎麼處理這個事有沒有現在具體進度在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13595.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13620.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
他這樣等於是形同對其他國家對我們在駐台的大使造成的騷擾嘛對造成一些困境我們要怎麼處理要不要積極幫他們主張他們的權益一定要保護我們這個駐台的這個此節跟他們代表處或是這個的外交上面的權益要不要跟內政部長喊喊話這個是要嚴肅辦理他是去登記但是他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13621.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13649.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
辦理的業務或是行為有沒有違法這個是需要去查才能夠了解的我們也不能夠現在就去論斷你說不能夠現在論斷欸這個很清楚捏違反NGO的設立對不對宣稱自己是商務代表還協助辦了簽證結果是假的被正式的官方被打槍這就標準詐騙已經被認證了當然是違法行為嘛現在違法行為就是要具體的事證來加以這個所以部長你認為到現在這個是沒有具體的事證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13650.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13655.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
如果就媒體報導那個是有事證喔欸你們部裡面沒有處理過這個事嗎來那個應該是亞非斯吧對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13659.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13660.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我提醒外交部強度不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13687.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13697.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
但是嚴重影響我們持續在跟內政部一直在溝通當中有可能會影響邦誼這是一件大事啊部長司長該強硬的就強硬這個嚴重影響我們的外交狀況因為請內政部嚴肅處理啊難道不應該嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13700.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13727.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
對阿就是如果違反登記去執行不是屬於法定的業務阿這當然就要查辦明確了嘛要查辦對不對對早講就好只是因為後來他們去告嘛阿這個過程我剛剛講的就是有關於因為這些駐台的代表或者是他們辦事處的這些外交的權我們要去維護他那這個部分我們最後這個到最後一定是外交部跟內政部要跨部協商啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13727.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13728.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況． |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13755.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13757.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
謝謝主席請我們的部長請您部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13784.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13785.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
請問是不是部長的好朋友? |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13809.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13810.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
國內的音樂家在國外演出的非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13840.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13863.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
部長,我們其實很多過去的外交官尤其我們的駐外大使他不一定是外交本身出身但是呢起碼他也都在我們自己的政府內擔任過重要的職務不管是之前的謝長廷或者是林議員、童振元或莊碩翰等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13864.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13889.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
可是這位劉詠璇 因為事實上真的非常非常的陌生那她是音樂家 從來沒有過外交經驗 也沒有過政府單位的一個歷練只因為是部長的好朋友 所以今天我們的外交難道是龍有有外交嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13889.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13917.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
不是啦這是文化外交他是在奧地利得到音樂博士的學位然後也很多國際演出跟合作嘛那我們要推動歐洲的文化外交那有一個來自於藝術界的音樂的這個專長的人我覺得大使事實上是政務官他是要通財啦我要告訴你啊其實在這個人是在你們外交系統引起了非常大的震撼 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13918.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13933.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我們還是有很多優秀的外交官而且我們有很多外交官現在都超過6年欸一直想要外調或者是輪值通通都沒有辦法結果好不容易奧地利控出了一個新的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13934.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13955.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
結果呢卻是由龍有有然後一個完全沒有外交經驗那我覺得我們現場這麼多的這個外交系統的有很豐富外交經歷請問一下他們情何以堪啊所以我就說這個是不會啊我們這個職業外交官我們也非常多都在重要的管處啊擔任大使跟代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13955.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13958.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
有很多在那邊苦撐待變苦撐待掉的你也能不能照顧一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13982.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13991.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
有要想調來跟我講啦你們想要在哪裡有目標對不對我一定幫你們看圓夢啦不能夠講這不矛盾的事啊也變成都沒有外交經驗只要你認識就好對不對我最近上任如果你去看看真的我們公務員很優秀的職業外交官幫我們很多的外交官要說一下話啦他們敢怒不敢言好請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14010.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14013.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
APEC領袖代表已經內定是原來的林信義副院長了嗎因為這個現在還在進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14026.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14038.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
依照過去的例子會適當的時候來對外正式的公佈開記者會當然這個也是府方會正式公佈因為他是總統的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14043.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14065.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那因為時間也很緊迫了那外界也非常關心那麼因為本來是希望陳建仁副總統那被秘魯拒絕那我們當然還是希望就過去都是張忠謀先生但他已經高齡了嘛所以呢現在是不是由林信義前副院長來代表大概這個禮拜會公佈嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14066.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14068.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
陳水扁總統馬英九總統還有蔡英文總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14096.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14120.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
其實在他首度就職我講的是首度就職其實也都蠻快的那個像陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統是在8月份他們就出訪然後呢蔡英文總統是6月份他就出訪但是現在都一直等不到我們的賴總統出訪也過了大概半年了大半年所以我們賴總統什麼時候可以出訪呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14122.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14124.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
等確定之後就會對外說明今年之內可不可能成行? |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14132.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14158.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
做幕僚的這個單位我們都要規劃各種的方案原首的外交包括總統的出訪我想那個適當的時機跟這個訪問的對象應該由總統府方面來說明因為按照過去的經驗說實在臺灣的這個外交環境事實上都一直很艱困的都一直很艱困你說中共打壓吧中共打壓是無所不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14159.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14160.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
信心喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14182.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14184.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
因為美國總統大選馬上就要到了11月5號 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14201.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14212.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那現在呢這兩位候選人呢非常膠著那這兩位候選人不管是哪一位當選其實對台灣事上都會有一定的衝擊這個衝擊不僅僅只是一個外交或國際情勢的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14216.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14243.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
還有經貿上面的衝擊那我想請問外交部針對美國總統大選的結果我們有沒有做出一些因應的政策或者已經提出報告給總統也好或者給我們這個國安系統讓他們能夠掌握不管這兩位哪一位擔任總統對台灣的衝擊是什麼我們的因應措施是什麼準備好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14244.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14247.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
美國總統大選出爐之後對台灣影響最大衝擊最大的是哪一方面? |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14261.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14287.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
對台灣的衝擊我想他們的外交政策特別是他們的印太戰略當然有分成安全的層面涉及到地緣政治也有一些屬於經濟方面的當然長期來講我們都是理念相近的民主國家這個我們很有信心部長另外請教一下在你們的方案中有沒有包括一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14288.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14316.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
在11月5號或者短期內美國總統大選沒有結果有沒有這個項目我想基於這個對未來趨勢跟可能的這個情境的這個研判我們是對各不同的選舉結果都有所準備跟因應最後就提醒我們部長跟外交部因為根據過去的經驗因為尤其他們這一次非常咬得很緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14317.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14337.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
所以有可能等到7月5號選完之後可能輸的那一方會要求驗票搞不好短時間內還沒有辦法正式出爐所以呢請外交為什麼特別來講其實我覺得對我們的經貿的部分其實影響是極大的不管在半導體部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14337.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14338.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
謝謝王宏威委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14366.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14369.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
接下來我們請賴世寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請外交部的林部長請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14394.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14411.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
委員好我們看喔川普最近說話了他大概因為跟哈里斯非常接近可能有焦慮但是無意中他也露出底牌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14412.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14417.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
而如果中國大陸入侵台灣課關稅150到200%課關稅那這個是不是已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14426.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14444.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
秀出底牌了他說不會出兵了你再進一步追問如果大陸打台灣不會出兵因為習近平尊重我他認識我你要不要對這個話回應一下說從原來川普在五月底的時候那時候是打這個牌也是為了勛軍他說如果大陸打台灣他要轟炸北京 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14455.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14455.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14473.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14486.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
這個對於美國在選舉期間的這個候選人的發言我們是都很密切關注但是我們也不予評論不過各種可能選後的發展我們也是做好因應的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14488.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14488.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14508.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14511.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
經濟制裁完全走向對烏克蘭的路對烏克蘭 俄羅斯他也不敢怎麼樣啊到目前為止也不敢去打俄羅斯只有一直給這個烏克蘭武器啦這個援助啦然後制裁俄羅斯一模一樣他現在對台灣的路川普現在對台灣的就是跟美國對烏克蘭幾乎如出一轍我這樣講對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14536.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14544.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
其實美國的對中對台的政策有他的這個法律的依據或說長期的一個發展基礎烏克蘭更有烏克蘭說要給他加入NATO勒加入北約勒更有台灣還沒有一個tweet勒台灣有一個tweet一個NATO就可以鼓勵讓他加入北約 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14565.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14565.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14581.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14582.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
選舉期間的語言我們不予評論,但是我們會密切的關注,做好因應的準備。 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14604.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14615.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這政見他對大陸要進入美國的item他要加到百分之六十如果打台灣要加到百分之一百五到兩百這個會兌現的喔部長這不是你說他在這個選舉議員這是政見啊不是選舉議員喔他是政見喔政見有可能變政策啊這是他政見喔這個不能這樣子小看他勒不能小看 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14633.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14636.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
其實你不能替川普回答這個問題因為他要保持一個他的模糊跟比較談判的籌碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14658.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14679.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
但是他也講過你剛剛委員講的包括轟炸北京阿所以我意思是說他們在選舉期間當然有基於他去訴求他的選民我們都要很關注而且要做好因應的準備但是我們不以過度去介入他們因為這些選舉的評論林部長你是不是比較喜歡聽到他轟炸北京的議論我沒有不以置評這個部分轟炸北京你們外送的是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14688.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14697.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
沒有感覺我就是先不以置評現在講一堆來我們看看蔡英文總統上任以後川普有打了電話跟他通了電話現在請問外交部有沒有準備說不管誰當選川普或者是哈里斯當選我們都想辦法給他跟我們的賴總統通電話有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14718.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14718.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
剛才有委員提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14747.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14773.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
這個其實其實其實蔡英文總統就任的時候巴拉馬總統瓦雷拉3月就喊邀了因為那時候已經知道起過了嘛巴拉圭總統叫卡里斯520免邀6月就出訪啦現在已經10月了快11月了結果賴總統什麼都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14780.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14792.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這個會不會邀訪也是有啦我們當然我說有幫助我們的邀訪都是有的啊怎麼他沒有去過跟什麼時間適合會綜合去考量嘛你要不要講一下那幾個邀訪有就是了嘿在這裡要講啊你給我們振奮人心一下啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14805.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14805.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
每個國家有邀訪那是不是可以過進美國?這個比較重要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14834.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14836.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
這個都還沒有決定還沒有決定啦所以你的意思等於這個決定了總統府方面會對外而說言外之意就是美國不答應賴清德過去美國的這樣不會啦啊不會為什麼不趕快公佈呢賺不人心一下適當時候就會公佈啦因為現在大家都認為是依賴論這個不用依賴美國依賴論喔不會啦沒什麼變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14862.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14862.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14883.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14896.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
這個一個小問題啊我們講這個民主同盟民主同盟世界的什麼公開北京喔這個很模糊啊這個不像說比如說CPTPP比如說APEC這是國際組織我們跟美國關係這麼好哪一個國際組織美國幫助我們加入你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14907.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14927.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
其實我們跟美國之間就有很多多邊的這些交流合作的架構啊架構不算啦 組織啊 正式的組織我們希望台灣人你任何做問卷台灣人最需要的就是說我們要有國際的空間因為我們實在太辛苦了老共不斷打壓 幾十年來都打壓不是只有今天才打壓 一直打壓我們當然沒有人疏忽 大家都不疏忽但是我們就要問你國際主義有哪一些美國幫助我們加入 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14938.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14947.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
其實美國都有在幫我們這個不管是協助啦或者是說很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14948.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14953.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個我時間到了不願意比如說WHA也沒有啊CPTPP也沒有啊你講到現在講到這樣2758號也沒有去提案嘴巴講嘴巴講打嘴砲而已啊都沒有實質的其實我們感謝他們為台灣不管是發聲或者是說講給你聽有什麼用就國際組織又再組織沒有關係比如說WHA他提案啊他還沒有提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14978.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14988.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
他去提案 輸了 我們覺得感激 結果他不是啊 嘴巴講說 喔 支持喔 支持喔結果實際上都沒有幫忙啊 這個東西 人家覺得說我們買這麼多的一個武器 都天然攻擊的 我講真實組織 在外面講都不好啦 真實組織裡面講的才有用啦 APEC 到現在為止 美國沒有人幫我們啊 你剛剛講說可能離心力 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15003.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15019.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
為什麼沒辦法陳建仁?好歹當過副總統啊,這位階更高啊。老公打壓他,救他回去。APEC裡面美國可以講話啊,美國super power啊,實力比老公強太多了,為什麼美國APEC沒辦法幫我們?你回答一下,10秒鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15022.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15024.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
接下來我們請洪孟楷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15055.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15084.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
主席謝謝麻煩請林佳龍部長請林部長好部長好委員好部長請就最近大家關心說有一個國際詐欺犯啊騙了10億元然後來到台灣5年了那後來被我們移民署已經就掌握然後現在要把他遣送結果沒想到遣送到了新加坡新加坡不收現在又退回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15085.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15108.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那本席看到現在由外交部這邊來協助是要跟歐盟這邊來做一個聯繫溝通那因為我們說沒有辦法直接送回給西班牙讓他們去做一個相關的形式的一個處罰是因為我沒有直飛飛機啊那我想請教一下已經回來台灣一天多的時間目前外交部有怎麼樣的協助進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15110.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15122.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
現在內政部移民署他們有在處理當中所以會在就是已經有聯繫這個就是在聯繫誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15129.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15135.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
現在西班牙有跟歐盟的國家聯繫所以已經有洽談這個要遣送的國家他們之間會再進行因為這涉及到有一些引渡條約再來就是因為這是國際刑警組織發布的紅色通報所以我們都是支持配合他們這個遣返的 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15159.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15177.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
支持配合這沒有問題啊部長你是外交部部長我在外交國防委員會為什麼會點出這個問題當然這移民署相關但是我們看到報導講說外交部幫忙跟西班牙政府來協商嘛這應該是西班牙政府應該要管轄的嘛那個人逃來台灣五年在台灣吃香喝辣五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15178.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15207.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
大家沒有辦法接受嘛那現在他變人球說要送到新加坡結果新加坡又把他退回來我不知道說這到底是移民署沒有跟溝通好還是外交部沒有溝通好那不過被送回當人球是事實嘛我們看到新聞報導是昨天早上6點已經回到台灣但沒有辦法讓他入境所以他現在變成是三不管他有可能是在境外等於是海關這邊嘛那我們現在想要問的是什麼時候他可以接受法律的制裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15209.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15212.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這個 因為已經有洽談好因為西班牙跟現在我們要這個他送的對象國家已經有洽談好了哪個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15232.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15246.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
有確定了嗎因為這個是他們的我想涉及到一些這是機密嗎如果機密你可以不要講但我是說有確定了是不是有已經確定了是所以什麼時候這一個人可以送回應該就在辦禮裝嘛什麼時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15247.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15248.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
所以已經確認遣送第三國那國家是歐盟國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15278.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15284.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
就是西班牙已經有洽談好可以接受的國家已經洽談好所以短期之內就會有動作應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15288.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15290.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我們也希望不要有任何人把台灣當成是避風港 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15309.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15317.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
不要以為說台灣我們中華民國是畫外之地如果說該遣送就遣送要處理合理制裁但更重要的是這件事情如果沒有聯繫好的話會讓國人滑爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15320.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15349.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
所以我們這幾天很密切的在聯繫遣送的話是不是也發一個新聞稿讓大家知道是說我們讓他依法來去做後續的處理好我們盡速跟社會大眾報告再來部長請教南非住管限期被迫遷移的部分那我們也很重視啊我想我不容許我們也認為是說我們的感情也好我們的相關的一個法令也好怎麼會突然有任何國家要求我們的這個住管要遷移而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15350.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15374.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
滿不禮貌的說限期十月底要遷移啊早上你已經有回答過了但你說很多的應變小組也做了那現在應變小組除了我們這邊對於南非駐台灣的辦事處我們有沒有找南非駐台灣的代表來溝通有怎麼會有那麼粗暴的一個作為有我們有召見嘿然後他怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15376.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15392.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
他怎麼講他就是有他們因為南非外交部啊就是透過一個電函那給我們住處那我們就是也針對這個我們也有富含南非政府就是表達我們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15393.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15415.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
也據理會力爭因為這是片面毀約違反我們1997年雙邊的簽署的協議架構是你親自召見駐台的南非代表嗎對那他怎麼說來我請我們不是他怎麼說你不是你親自召見為什麼你要請人家講你剛講你親自召見然後你要請別人回答是 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15421.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15446.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
有沒有召見阿來我們部長你這樣讓我懷疑你好像沒有召見耶好同仁跟委員報告部長是我召見的是我召見的因為那天部長正好另外有工忙所以事情一出來之後我立即就請南非住宅代表到我辦公室那部長下次國會殿堂有一說一你有時間很忙你也可以講時間很忙但是我們這共同關心來來這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15449.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15453.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
政府政策為什麼會這樣做以前沒有現在突然間這樣做他的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15470.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15485.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那這是他作為前線的這個出外代表他是執行他政府的政策那我們當然也代表政府向他表達最強烈的抗議跟我們的不滿還有不能接受不能接受嘛國人沒有辦法接受喔來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15487.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15516.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
部長沒有辦法接受那我有看到你說研議小組那研議小組現在是只有除了說比較具體的有可能要求駐台的南非辦事處遷離台北市對不對我們用一樣的動作反制當然有人就講是說到底這樣子會懲罰到誰但另外一個部分啊我們還有沒有更具體如果說10月底到了南非政府真的在他們的首都對於我們的外館 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15517.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15531.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
有很強硬的動作我們怎麼樣保護我們外管的同仁我們當然會以外管同仁的安全就是做最重要那在這個期間因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15532.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15555.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
如果有違法的行動我們也會訴諸法律那這些強制的行為影響到我們住管人員的安全我們會以安全保護我們的住管人員如果11月1號我不知道南非政府怎麼做但如果11月1號真的有他們政府或相關人士我們的住管人員要去開門要去open9點鐘到了要營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15557.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15583.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
結果他們有人阻撓不讓我們開門怎麼辦這個情境我們都有做沙盤推演是啊那我們就是說因為那個產權是我們台灣的嘛中華民國的所以他任何的詳細行為都有違法我們當然會訴諸這個我們的就是我們的我們法律的保障那因為所以我們會提起國際仲裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15584.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15607.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
還是什麼樣的一個國際的法庭這個如果是屬於他違反他們自己國家的法律我們當然也會伸張我們的權益啊是現在我們但是同一陣線我沒有辦法允許任何國家即便我們剛剛沒有邦交但是突然間一紙公文要求說十月底搬離我拆違建也沒有拆成這樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15608.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15628.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
更何況是在我們正式我們中華民國的一個辦事處那一樣嘛我現在講的是說後續如果說他真的那麼強硬的態度那我們有什麼國際上應有作為你剛剛也講了1997年他等於是片面毀約那如果片面毀約的話我們有什麼救濟管道國際仲裁有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15630.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15631.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
聯合國我們有沒有資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15660.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15675.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我當然是鼓勵你要去把意見支持我們的意見多表達但重點在是我們還有什麼方法可以做我們有相應的反制的作為包括我們就是基於對等的原則我們也會就是要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15677.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15705.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
對我們的這個不公平的對待我們也會有一些因應的作為包括他們的這個就是台灣的這個住處我們會要求就是同樣的方式吧也要建立我們的首都啊你還是在繞圈圈部長我是希望你能夠印起來中華民國的尊嚴台灣2300萬人尊嚴最後一個請教啦我們現在非洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15706.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15731.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
有幾個邦交國一個哪一個斯瓦帝尼斯瓦帝尼他現在對於我們因為斯瓦帝尼相對來講跟南非關係好像也不錯對算是密切嘛因為他在他的南非裡面而且上個月該國國王也迎娶了南非前總統的女兒啊所以他們可能經濟政治等等都有相關的一些交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15732.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15733.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
施瓦帝尼的邦交穩定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15740.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15742.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
部長最後一次跟我們斯瓦帝尼大使通電話或是瞭解相關的資訊是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15766.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15795.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我因為電報非常的快速啦所以我們幾乎是每天啊都對這個情況都司法地理這個部分也是都保持聯繫都有掌握對好部長本席要提醒啊12個邦交國是我們現在中華民國還有的那本席真的不希望有任何的邦交國再有任何的一個鬆動所以也希望外交部要努力好那該掌握的情報要掌握是好謝謝好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15796.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15797.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
謝謝黃孟楷委員部長請回正正前正正前正正前委員不在羅志強羅志強羅志強委員不在接下來我們請陳培宇委員上台諮詢好謝謝主席有請部長請您部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15831.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15855.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
部長午安辛苦了部長我之前在6月的時候跟您討論過運動外交不知道部長有沒有印象不過很棒的是在上個禮拜總統府發布邀請了戴資穎還有劉伯鈞這兩位我們都非常熟悉的傑出運動人士擔任無人所大使那我想之後呢外交部在運動外交這個部分因為有這兩位大使的協助應該可以著力更深 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15856.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15868.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那上個10月7號我看到部長您跟大使有參敘不知道參敘過程中你有沒有跟他們兩個稍微聊了一下那外交部接下來在運動外交有沒有什麼著力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15869.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15898.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
是,因為我們現在政府要成立運動部,我們外交部也同步,就是針對這個相關的運動外交在做一些規劃,包括我們對無人所大使的角色,我們也希望能夠透過他們跟國際來更多的交流合作,也會有一個無人所大使的一個聯繫的辦公室跟相關的行政協助, |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15900.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15909.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這幾天舉行亞洲帕拉林匹克委員會,我們也全力支持,也有跟主辦單位表達希望能夠跟運動外交結合,包括無任所大使的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15927.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15929.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
明年世界壯年運動會也是我們近期的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15936.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15960.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
所以聽起來在部長您的規劃跟想像當中也許是您的幕僚給你的資料那我們來往下看我知道部長一定會提到運動部可是運動部說實話他們等到正式上路這中間有非常多的交接跟規劃這個混亂的階段那我會覺得如果這個時候外交部可以更加積極先走在運動部之前例如說我給部長一些例子其實從聯合國 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15962.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15972.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
從他們的角度來看運動外交是一個非常重要的工作例如說以美國來說國務院有運動外交部門日本有東京奧運東協十國計畫澳洲有運動外交2030英國也有2021到2031的運動策略計畫沙烏地阿拉伯的願景2030 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15981.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16005.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
這一系列的國家我相信跟台灣在運動外交上絕對有很多的角色跟工作可以開始交流跟進行所以這個部分我還是要積極來拜託外交部在這個部分要更加積極用這兩位無認所大使他們在運動上的專長跟他們在國際上被接受這個狀態讓外交部可以做更多事情我們來看下一頁我再一次跟部長分享以劉伯鈞為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16007.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16029.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
他用他自己的努力登上了聯合國還有富比士雜誌還有美國國務院的網站甚至他親身踏入聯合國演講部長我要拜託您的是其實台灣有沒有可能再找出第二個跟第三個劉伯鈞我自己說實話不是因為我們沒有人才而是國際的情勢會讓我們更加的困難這個部分部長你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16032.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16054.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
確實 其實運動外交 因為各國都有相對應的政策或機構 那我們會進行來對接 那找出合作的項目比如說以美國來講 他這個AIT 就很重視劉伯鈞的無人鎖大使那我想在台美之間很多的項目可以一起來推動他對美國國務院 也是他們有參加過他們的課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16056.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16062.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
更了解其實運動外交還有包括性別平等還有其他的一些運動員相關的權益的推廣這些也都是在運動外交的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16067.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16093.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
聽起來從上次六月跟部長對話到現在我發現部長對於運動外交的認識越來越多這個部分我聽得非常開心意思就是說我相信在部長您的領導之下一定台灣的運動外交可以做得更好除了博君是一個非常重要的例子但有沒有可能換位思考例如說博君就跟我們分享過其實我們自己也有能力去協助別的國家的女性運動或者是運動從業人員他們的價值可以被肯定讓這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16094.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16098.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
不同國家的朋友可以透過運動外交跟臺灣建立關係我們來看下一頁例如說之前盧伯鈞他們的臺灣運動好事協會他們跟孟加納女藍有做相關賠利計畫他們甚至還有木運動內衣捐贈到國外去 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16111.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16138.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
可是在中間因為他當時並沒有這個無任所大使的身份他在做這些事情上遇到非常多的困難包含簽證、跨國聯繫的工作但是我相信從博軍擔任無任所大使之後很多這些事情的聯繫是不是會更加的快速跟便利甚至可以讓他的影響力擴及到更多的國家跟更多不同運動種類項目的運動員有所交流這個部分我想要拜託部長給出承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16138.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16167.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
對,以這個運動內衣的捐贈或是運動相關的這些﹖女力或是課程的賠利對,我們會來推動我講是說其實台灣在紡織業在機能性服裝上其實很多運動員都是穿我們台灣製的那這個方面也是我們的強項所以除了運動內衣之外有一些競賽及有一些他們的服裝或是設備其實這方面的推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16168.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16194.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
也是運動外交的一部分我們的產業很強所以這方面我們會配合未來其實已經很多人都在捐贈像消防服裝我們也做跨國的很多交流合作特別新南向國家那這個運動外交其實是可以深入到尤其對一些女權比較需要因為女性在運動上面相對處於有時候會比較不利或被歧視的情形所以這個是我們可以切入的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16194.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16221.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
其實部長剛剛講到不只是產業的問題或是性別的問題或者是兒少培力的問題其實都是無認所大使劉伯鈞他在過去沒有這個身份之前他就非常積極在從事的事情那我們來看下一頁其實我談這麼多的案例喔我先回到光是在巴黎奧運其實駐法外館的同仁全力支援巴黎奧運這件事情是不是也要拜託部長先公開的給予同仁相對的鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16222.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16236.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
有,我其實那時候跟吳志忠還有代表還有後來郝培斯代表因為剛好在奧運跟帕運之間我們其實是密切的聯繫所以相關的包括他們的訓練中心還有相關的這些文化奧運 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16237.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16251.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
所以這個密切聯繫我們的外管在這一次扮演很重要的角色那下一次因為是在洛杉磯我們應該有更好的條件可以把目標再更提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16252.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16280.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
謝謝部長幫我把我想要講的話講出來如果我們在法國就已經有這麼好的成績那美國相對跟台灣是友善的國家有非常多的討論可以開始進行但是部長剛有提到運動部所以如果我們不要只等著運動部外交部是不是可以率先啟動相關的準備作業因為事實上雖然時間看起來是2028但其實我們所剩時間不多可不可以由外交部這邊更積極的發起所謂運動外交更多的想像跟政策開始推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16281.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16294.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我們會跟現在其實教育部體育署也是有相關的業務那當然未來運動部現在已經都設立好明年要成立我們會就是同步來作業無縫接軌好同步作業所以這邊我們會積極跟外交部開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16297.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16318.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
有我有請我們同仁針對運動外交相關的人就是能夠組合起來大家來討論我們要推動的這個事項所以根據我們今天談的三個事情一個是我認為外交部必須要定期有專人主動跟無認所大使聯繫針對大使的工作目標提供相關業務的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16319.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16337.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
就如同我說的他之前為了推動非常多運動的外交他在簽證或是跨國聯繫上其實受到非常多的阻礙這個部分部長是不是可以先公開承諾外交部可以定期專人主動跟這些無認所大使聯繫除了提供相對的行政事務辦公室的一個窗口之外這個部分會有困難嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16339.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16364.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
我已經有跟劉伯鈞﹑吳任所大使有．伯鈞只是其中一個例子啦．其實每一位吳任所大使都有他們的專家然後戴志穎﹑吳任所大使我們也會來瞭解他的想要推動的重點好那這個部分我希望我們在一個月內有相關的規劃報告跟執行狀況第二個喔運動外交不能再只是依賴這些吳任所大使不要讓這些大使孤軍作戰我們希望外交部跟體育署就是未來的運動部要定期的工作匯報這個部分部長您覺得會有困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16367.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16390.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
有關怎麼去進行我們會來進行委員提示的重點我們也會特別重視那最後一個就是2028洛杉磯奧運我相信我們在剛剛討論當中部長應該知道更多人對於運動外交的想像是他是一個柔性的他是一個軟性的他可以有更多的面向可以一起進行那這邊也要拜託外交部積極努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16392.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16393.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
接下來請黃國昌委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16424.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16425.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
謝謝主席﹖有請部長請林部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16437.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16460.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
部長好委員好南非對於我們國家這種粗暴的要求全體國人都應該站在政府背後做外交部最強的後盾我覺得對外我們的立場要一致對內大家不同看法沒關係對外立場一定要一致這個是我向來的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16461.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16490.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那在這個原則下今天的主題正是以前有幾個問題請教一下部長就是我們是什麼時候接到南非這個無理的要求那去年12月的時候他們有口頭表達那今年4月的時候呢就有跟我們就是提出要限期半年內要頒這個簽的管處那過去半年我們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16491.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16517.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我們透過各種的溝通包括因為南非剛好有總統跟國會的大選所以我們跟各黨派其實都有聯繫希望說大選之後有所調整另外跟美日還有這些有理念相近國家其實是有很頻繁的在討論他們也替我們去盡洽南非的政府甚至在一些國際場合 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16519.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16532.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
相當誠實的這個外交部的代表有向南非來表達關切這個過程的還原我覺得蠻重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16534.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16554.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
我看不管是媒體還是或者是有一些委員質詢所以我們突然收到這樣的通知那因為跟我看南非那邊的外電寫的不太一樣所以我第一個先把事實的情況先還原他就是10月7號啊我想他在我們國慶酒會的時候特別又發了一個電海是是是那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16555.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16580.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
南非那邊他們的官員是講說他們已經給台灣充足的時間做準備了那我看到這個外電的時候我看了有點驚訝因為跟我跟在台灣的媒體看的不太一樣所以事實第一個先釐清那第二個我們現在在南非那一邊的辦事處那個所有權是我們的嗎是所以依照南非的法律他有權利要求我們搬走嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16582.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16606.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
就是這個產權是我們他沒辦法進行幫我們就是改變的第一個是所有權沒有辦法移轉我們有1997年的雙邊的協議部長不好意思就是我們問答就請針對問題回答你之前回答過其他委員那些講過的話就不要再講了我的問題很具體南非辦事處的產權是我們的嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16608.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16636.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那第二個他也沒辦法逼我們賣掉嗎他可以逼我們賣掉嗎沒有辦法吧那第三個依照目前南非的法律跟相關的國際條約他有可能強制要我們搬走嗎如果以合法的手段他除非有什麼樣的法律依據嘛不然的話他不能夠違法我先提醒部長一件事齁就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16637.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16664.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
我們要在外交上面作戰很辛苦那但是你既然要作戰你也談到法律手段就把相關的法令請研究清楚這樣模擬兩可啊沒有辦法對外作戰的啦對我跟委員報告其實法律方面的權益我們就是也都研究過就是透過訴訟如果他對我們有一些強制行為是無法我先提一下所以除非 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16667.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16667.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
這位有請同仁再研究研究的結論是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16694.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16718.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
呃...就是...呃...我們待會有個期間啦因為這個還是要按照我們的法律我們是法治國家嘛那他如果說他自己...這不要一直抽象講依照我們的法律我...我在把問題講得很清楚他的辦事處在台北是租的嘛對他有個房東嘛是在他租約沒有終止以前依照我們國家的法律我們外交部可不可以逼他搬離台北市到新北市去 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16720.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16741.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我們是可以去就是跟他的這個簽約的對象應該契約裡面都有說明如果有一些情形是可以終止契約所以剛剛你所講的是按照契約條款我們可以要求那個房東跟他終止契約另外我們可以要求他先停止運作嘛因為這個是在我們這麼嚴重喔要求他停止運作這個在你的報復的手段之一就對了對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16750.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16774.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
我希望我做這些問題我只希望部長要想清楚我們國人一定做外交部的後盾但不管是對外的法律戰或者是對內台灣是一個法治國家我們總不可能像2017年奈及利亞要我們遷離的時候派25個武裝警察強迫我們搬走嘛台灣不可能幹這種事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16775.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16798.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
台灣不會幹這種事情的情﹖因為我相信2017年的經驗啦外交部的同仁應該都很熟啦我們台灣不會幹這種事嘛所以對內的法律戰我也請部長先準備好因為不管是外交法律我們台灣是民主法治的國家我們一切依法來做我們要以理服人不是以利服人 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16798.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16799.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
中美洲銀行是一個獨裁者的金庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16819.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16832.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
那個錢不可以拿去胡搞瞎搞啊那中美洲銀行怎麼胡搞瞎搞為什麼我會關心因為關台灣的事嘛我們是第一大股東欸佔有的持股超過11%欸第一大股東欸所以那個時候即使是美國的CSIS |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16843.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16869.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
都希望臺灣這邊要注意不要讓卡貝胡搞瞎搞成為獨裁者的金庫要不然我們臺灣我們在號稱我們要用民主法治跟人權民主同盟用價值在國際社會行走所以我們既然如果去資助一個獨裁者的金庫這對於臺灣的國際形象傷害太大了部長同不同意同意好我們繼續往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16871.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16899.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
台灣對於中美洲銀行我必須要老實講作為一位台灣人我們真的是盡心盡力沒有虧待中美洲的那些友邦我們一開始加入中美洲銀行就是為了什麼就是為了要穩定我們在中美洲的邦交所以你看一開始的創始會員國區域內的創始會員國本來都跟我們有邦交的結果搞到現在只剩兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16901.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16925.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
有5個在蔡政府的時期的時候斷交哥斯大黎加斯2007年的時候就斷交那當然這個背後都有老共的影子我們大家都心知肚明但在國際上面啊 行走的時候台灣人對於中美洲那邊需要的協助我們是出錢出力啊從來沒有缺席過但是過去這幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16928.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16954.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我們一路上面看下來變成是什麼我們一開始在中美洲銀行投資那麼多是因為裡面都是我們的邦交國嘛結果搞到現在斷交剩下兩個一個貝里斯一個瓜地拉馬然後再來這個是我們在中美洲銀行股款的繳納台灣啊來我直接看啊排名啊是第一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16955.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16981.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
到最近第8次增資的時候國際社會已經在質疑中美中銀行在幹什麼成為獨裁者的金庫第8次增資的時候有很多其他區域外的會員國大家對於要再拿錢出來是充滿了猶豫我們應該再往錢往裡面砸嗎砸進去了以後錢跑到哪裡去真的跑去幫助人民嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16982.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17006.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
跑去幫助學童嗎?跑去幫助婦女嗎?還是跑到了貪污者、獨裁者的口袋裡面去所以第8次爭執的時候我老實講在立法院那個時候我們到底要不要參加這件事情有少數瞭解情況關心的委員開始在質詢的時候大家是很在乎在面對國際社會的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17009.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17026.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
蔡英文前總統說不會跟中國進行無意義的金錢外交競逐部長同不同意同意啊也同意嘛這個也是你說的嘛是好我最後一個問題中美洲銀行那邊我們會不會幫其他的國家繳股款其他的國家繳股款第8次增資的股款會還是不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17034.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17054.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
同仁我沒有這個規劃嘛我只要你一句話就好因為我接到檢舉我接到檢舉說台灣有可能會幫其他國家繳股款我只要確認這件事情我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款會還是不會剛剛同仁講他們並沒有這樣的計畫確定沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17060.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17082.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
我只要你一句話有還是沒有會還是不會來你來說明一下是報委員增資的部分我們不會協助任何國家來繳股款確定絕對不會拿台灣納稅的錢幫其他國家搞繳股款這個是確定的事情了是嗎我是講第8次增資的部分我們不會繳股款那未來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17084.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17098.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
那個我跟委員說明一下其實我們現在想要除了加強監督還有你提到的這個對啦這個我都知道要加強監督理事在裡面有積極的調整但請回答我一個關鍵的問題在國會裡面把話說清楚我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款我只問這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17105.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17107.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
會還是不會?你們今天在國會裡面講話就要負責了,會還是不會?奇怪了,你們的問題怎麼反覆來?剛剛部長說不會,你現在又說考慮? |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17135.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17135.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
要花多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17151.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17176.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
我還沒有看到這方面的規劃的報告我只講一件事繼續投錢下去甚至是幫其他的國家繳錢拿台灣納稅的錢去繳丟到裡面去我希望外交部要慎重從這家銀行過去怎麼對待台灣發展到今天的歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17177.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17184.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我們繼續投錢下去還不夠 如果還要拿台灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款我希望外交部啊 要慎重考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17186.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17210.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
是 我跟委員也說明一下我們是不是可以從另外一個角度我們怎麼樣去積極影響中美洲銀行可以來發揮我們榮邦計畫那因為現在相對比較單純嘛因為現在就是我們現在瓜地馬拉跟加勒比海兩個邦交國那是不是在加勒比海或者是其他地方我們也可以擴大我有請同仁去研究可是您剛剛提到的所謂的代為繳款這個還沒有報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17213.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17234.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
我直接跟部長講你講那個你真的好好地去研究一下中美洲銀行我們在裡面一席常駐理事你講到好像我們現在已經變成理事主席可以主導中美洲銀行今天台灣如果在裡面是理事主席可以主導整個中美洲銀行要丟錢下去我一定贊成但是台灣過去這幾年被人家當什麼被人家當盤子 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17241.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17242.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
接下來我們請吳立華委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17276.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17280.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長 請您部長部長辛苦了謝謝委員我在這邊想要提供一些多元的聲音關於我們原住民外交的部分今年5月我不知道你知不知道這個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17302.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17321.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
中央大學的集地研究中心他們帶了第一批我先講是第一批但是呢有170種的台灣的小米種源帶到挪威去保存在他們的種子庫你知道這個消息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17323.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17349.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
報告委員知道因為這裡面有一個光和基金會是我創立的謝謝有支持這個計劃而且外交部有沒有支持外交部也有啊很好那你應該很清楚這個對國際來講對我們的整個氣候變遷來講對整個全球農業永續發展來講有沒有重大貢獻有但是你有沒有覺得像這樣子的新聞很小很小 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17351.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17368.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
是很可惜啊很可惜吧因為每一次我看都只有在圓明台出現我發現一般的媒體不會報導但是這是很重要的貢獻很重要的外交對不對對那外交部未來要不要在這個地方多著力一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17371.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17393.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
讓國際看見好不好要不然你們老是被罵其實我覺得很多的好事外交都是做在原住民身上可是沒有媒體會報導我再舉個例子今年也是一樣四年一度的太平洋藝術節這個也是很重要我們能夠以非正式會員身份參與容不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17395.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17422.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
這很不容易而且這個影片從頭到尾我都有看很感動而且我們是用中華民國的國旗放在他們的官網這個是用原住民的身份參與所以部長您覺得我們看一下參與的這一些成員是誰太平洋島國論壇的成員重不重要很重要是不是突破外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17423.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17446.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
對而且他們是美中在拉鋸的太平洋區域的這一些國家對不對對那台灣能夠出席能夠出現是不是也是重要貢獻對不好意思我只有在原民台看到只是因為這個人他講的話太精彩很多人是透過影片臉書轉傳分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17449.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17469.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
但是一樣我都覺得能見度好低所以外交部未來在這方面能不能夠做出什麼樣的協助我跟委員報告其實我有發現因為這個在業務上因為我們的原民會他也辦了很多國際交流但是我怎麼跟外交來連結是我今天要談的就是這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17473.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17487.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
總和外交就是原住民外交就是最好其實不只太平洋國家其實進步的這些民主自由人權重視的國家都對原住民主很重視像是加拿大他們都還有經濟社會平權 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17489.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17489.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我再舉一個馬上就要發聲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17515.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17534.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
2025明年很重要的在日本第三度舉辦的世界博覽會在大阪我上次也有請經濟部國貿的到我辦公室因為我想了解這麼重要的一個平台到底有沒有原住民的元素我跟部長說還好我有問捏沒有捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17537.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17546.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
那我都不知道了沒有原住民我們到世界要給人家看什麼啊要跟人家交什麼朋友是吧那外交部要不要幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17547.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17548.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
我要講這件事情就是說很可惜 原民會沒有那麼大的能量啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17577.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17604.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
以這個明年的大阪市博來講他的主責是在經濟部耶發包出去耶但是文化部就會因此覺得沒我的事可能外交部也會覺得沒我的事因為呢錢不是在原民會原民會也沒有辦法發聲這是不是很可惜明明可以好好做的一個外交的展示就因為部會的本位主義就這麼可惜沒有能見度是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17605.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17613.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
因為其實在大阪因為臺灣人去日本觀光旅遊很多所以這個是一個很重要可以呈現臺灣國力的一個機會那部長我就是講這個9月底你看我們的帛琉他們30週年的建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17625.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17644.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
賴總統特別請原民會的主委率團出訪,擔任特使。原民會也邀請了原住民各鄉鎮長,一同的去那個地方觀摩、考察、交流,參與他們的建國30周年。這時候我也很想問,外交部到底有沒有配合? |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17646.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17669.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
這是我們外交部推薦請人民會主委做特使我覺得很可惜力道不夠總而言之我要表達我希望外交部未來在這種參訪的事務都能夠大大的協助因為大家都在幫忙做外交我希望外交部更多的力量至少對這個帛琉 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17670.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17697.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
這位惠恕仁總統2021年他剛上任講了一句我好感動的話他直接對我們的蔡英文總統說我們的根在台灣帛琉的根在台灣你看這樣的情誼如果我們好好的跟他們交流用這樣的一個民族血緣的方式交流豈會被那些金錢外交的國家破壞呢是吧所以我希望外交部幫一個忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17698.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17724.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
我希望在過去我們的南島民族論壇也好或者是很重要的2013年的台紐經貿協定2022年的這個IPECA我們台灣也跟紐加澳洲同為創始國除此以外我要在這個地方跟部長能夠拜託一下我們來辦一個南太平洋的運動會可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17726.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17727.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
這個絕對比南太平洋藝術節還要轟動國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17756.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17757.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
外交人才培育 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17774.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17796.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
真正人才外交我們原住民太多太多這樣的一個有天份的年輕人我希望外交部我還是要再次問要有具體的措施去培育原住民族的外交人才這也是總統的政見那我下一次就想要來問問看我們到底有沒有具體的措施可以嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17797.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17806.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
好,請同仁記住喔,這個委員會再問的喔是,是,好,謝謝部長喔,您辛苦了,謝謝主席好,謝謝委員謝謝吳立華委員,部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17814.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17843.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
已登記質詢委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有羅志強委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報請相關機構以書面以兩週內答覆委員口頭上的質詢未及答覆的或要求補充資料亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供本日會議到此結束散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17847.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17847.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
主席 |