| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ecdd974dd956c7ad690a0be61fea148186059d4d42a7fce21d50a49d5e96a2b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：
(一) 本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。
(二) 本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。
(三) 本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。
(四) 本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。
(八) 本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。
(九) 本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。
(十) 本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。
二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：
(一) 本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。
(二) 本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。
【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
33270 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 17:45:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
2029.201 |
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我先講一下程序請組密報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與組法定人數我們現在開始開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2047.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2075.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
請醫事人先讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年10月16日星期三9時至13時中華民國113年11月17日星期四9時至12時2分地點清仙樓九樓大禮堂初期委員林德福等14人、內席委員陳佩玉等22人、內席官員113年10月16日星期三財政部部長莊翠穎、金融監督管理委員會副主任委員陳彥良等 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2078.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2081.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
經常監督管理委員、副主任委員、陳彥然等 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2096.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2119.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
2013年10月17日星期四中央銀行總裁楊金郎等主席、內召集委員會員2013年10月16日報告事項一、先讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二、邀請財政部莊部長翠穎率所屬機關所長暨國營事業董事長總經理含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董監事列席業務報告並備執行報告討論事項合併執行經財政部部長莊翠穎提出業務報告並與金融監督管理委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2124.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2144.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
副主任委員陳彥良分別就行政院提案提出報告及回應委員提案後就委員林德甫等18人提出質詢軍警財政部部長莊卓盈、機動監督管理委員會副主任委員陳彥良等予以答覆決定一、報告說明及詢討完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆會請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內與書面答覆委員另要求其選擇從即鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2146.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2171.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
討論事項審查證券駕馭稅條例五案一、行政院罕請審議證券駕馭稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案二、本院委員羅明才等23人擬具證券駕馭稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案三、本院委員賴世寶等25人擬具證券駕馭稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案四、本院委員吳立法等十幾人擬具證券駕馭稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案五、本院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2172.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2192.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
邱志偉等19人擬具《證券交易稅條例》第12條條件修正草案 令則其繼續審查113年11月17日 報告4項 邀請中央銀行總裁楊金隆率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份衛生公司董事長列席後報告並被質詢二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金隆就第7波 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2194.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2220.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
選擇性信用管制支配套措施進行專題報告並被質詢。經中央銀行總裁楊進隆提出報告後,繼而委員林德福等14人提出質詢。均經中央銀行總裁楊進隆等予以答覆。決定。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊。請中央銀行於一週內以書面答覆。委員另要求其縣者從其鎖定。三、委員王洪威、楊強英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報,並以中央銀行以書面答覆。宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2225.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2238.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好,請問各位委員對上次議事會有異議?沒有齁?沒有異議我們就議事會確定了。來,我們,我們來,我來報告一下今天的這個議程齁,那個議事委員你先宣讀一下今天的議程。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2239.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2255.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
討論事項 廣泛討論 一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案 一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2258.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2280.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
財政收支劃分法部分條件修正草案等6案。三、本院委員吳立華等17人擬具財政收支劃分法第三條條件修正草案。四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條條件修正草案。五、本院委員黃建豪等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第12條條件修正草案。六、本院委員王宏威等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第30條條件修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2282.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2307.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱振軍等19人分別擬具財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第16條之一條緣修正草案案。二、八、本院委員賴銳榮等16人、委員蔡玉儀等16人分別擬具財政收支劃分法第16條之一條緣修正草案等2案。九、本院委員賴世保等29人擬具財政收支劃分法第16條之二、第37條之二及第38條之二條緣修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2308.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2329.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
十、本院委員賴世寶等22人擬具財政收支劃分法第38條之一條文修正草案案。十一、本院委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第4條、第8條及第12條條文修正草案案。十二、本院委員楊瓊英等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條文修正草案案。十三、本院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2330.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2358.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
鄭天才等18人擬具財政收支劃分法徵定第30條之一及第30條之二條緣修正草案案二、審查財政收支劃分法二案一、本院委員羅廷文等19人擬具財政收支劃分法部分條緣修正草案案二、本院委員鄭振淺等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條條緣修正草案案宣佈完畢好,我們原地先介紹在場的委員和與會的政府官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2366.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2387.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
林德福委員蔡易瑜委員賴慧媛委員賴思瑪委員李坤城委員林楚英委員吳秉瑞委員張雅琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2389.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2403.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
郭玉琴委員、明月琴委員、陳培宜委員、范雲委員、顏寬恆委員、張志倫委員、黃珊珊委員、郭國文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2415.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2431.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
介紹我們今天議會的政府官員我們莊部長因為去參加APEC會議所以他請教我們今天到場的有我們財政部的政務次長阮清華 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2434.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2462.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
法治處的姚瑩處長統計處的蔡美娜處長國庫署的陳柏成署長負稅署的陳慧琪副署長行政院主計總處陳淑芝主計長公務預算處的徐永毅處長內政部民政司的劉立芳莊委 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2464.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2473.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
內政部國土管理署國土計劃組的檢任視察朱偉廷先生國發會的經濟發展處郭永騰專委人民會的綜合規劃處洪林副處長環境部大氣環境師的謝仁碩科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2487.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2492.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法務部法制司的調部辦事檢察官楊石宇檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2496.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2517.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
今天我們議程的安排是繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的財政收支劃分法修正草案等20案即審查一、委員羅廷偉等19人擬具的財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案二、委員鄭振銓等21人擬具的財政收支劃分法第8條修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2518.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2524.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在我們請議事人宣讀委員羅廷偉等19人及委員鄭鄭前等20人分別擬具這條文預計宣讀時間一分鐘宣讀完畢後我們就開始進行廣泛討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2532.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2547.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
先讀委員提案條文委員羅廷偉等19人提案第4條刪除委員羅廷偉等19人提案第8條同國民黨黨團提案第8條委員鄭振銓等21人提案第8條第一項第二項同國民黨黨團提案第8條第一項第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2549.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2565.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第三項,修正為第一項第一款之所得稅,應以在直轄市縣市徵期之收入5%給該直轄市縣市。第四項、第五項,同國民黨黨團提案第三項、第四項,委員羅廷偉等19人提案第12條,同委員林思明等20人提案第12條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2567.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2583.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
委員羅廷慧等19人提案第16條之一同國民黨黨團提案第16條之一委員羅廷慧等19人提案第30條同國民黨黨團提案第30條委員羅廷慧等19人提案附表一刪除委員羅廷慧等19人提案附表二刪除宣告完畢我們現在進行廣泛討論做以下宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2591.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2618.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
剛剛我們委員都有到台前來登記發言要發言的委員請到才還可以繼續來主席台登記我們10點半截止登記本會委員每位發言是8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘8加2非本會委員就列席委員我那個不是程序發言我現在是廣泛討論上面有寫程序發言嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2624.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2639.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這張不是程序發言這張是廣泛討論你簽名的時候沒有注意看你們想做程序發言我們也可以沒問題沒問題那你們要做廣泛討論嗎好那可以那等一下齁那請坐下來等一下齁好好來那等一下可以可以請坐齁來 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2641.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2649.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好,可以。那因為這張是廣泛討論的,我還沒有說好,你要程序發言喔。那可以程序發言每位3分鐘,要程序發言請來這邊簽名喔。好。這個上面這一張我們剛簽是廣泛討論,大家有沒有注意看。要做程序發言歡迎喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2669.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2678.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們會讓大家暢所欲言,好好發言這是廣泛討論的程序發言是左邊那一張,廣泛討論是右邊這一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2705.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2706.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
歡迎大家上所議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2742.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2762.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
現在有幾位12位我們現在有12委員簽名要做程序發言還有沒有在場委員要做程序還沒有簽名的我們稍微再等一下還有沒有人要上來簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2765.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2790.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
如果沒有話我們就這12位委員做程序發言喔每位委員程序發言時間3分鐘齁好我們先請呃程序發言結束以後我們就開始進行廣泛討論齁好現場還有沒有委員沒有簽名的要做程序發言的公共委員也要做程序發言嗎沒有看你要嗎如果要就上來簽沒有就不用好就這12位齁好我們現在先請蔡宜委員齁每位3分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2804.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2816.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席、各位同仁那我們今天我們財政委員會排審了財政收支劃分法那我們知道財政收支劃分主要是關於中央跟地方政府之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2817.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2841.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
他們關於統籌分配的一個比例的問題那也是關於當年度中央政府因為國人的稅收然後有涉及到如何去做分配那這個分配主要有垂直分配跟水平分配那垂直分配當然就是說中央跟地方的一個比例那水平分配就是不同的地方政府他要 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2841.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2862.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
根據不同的一個經濟的一個指標一個參考的一個指數然後來做地方政府應該可以拿到多少統籌分配盤當然我們知道中央政府跟地方政府之間除了統籌分配之外事實上也有所謂補助款那我們知道這幾年中央政府對於地方政府的補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2863.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2875.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
事實上是每年都在增加所以地方政府也因為補助款可以大幅度的彌補它統籌分配上不足或者是其他有缺陷的一個地方是由補助款來補助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2876.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2900.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個是過去的這樣整個一套的一個制度那如果今天我們大家對於財政收支劃分法有意見然後認為過去的制度沒有達到好的話我們當然是可以來討論但是我認為有一個前提非常的重要就是我們現在最要緊的我們要趕快處理明年度的總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2901.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2921.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
因為我們知道說到了今天已經10月22號已經10月22了所以已經到了這樣的一個年底然後我們只剩下一個月差不多剩兩個月又十天的這麼短的時間內我們要處理明年3兆1325億的中央政府的總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2930.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2952.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
如果我們這個總預算沒有好好來審議的話我們明年有很多不管是新增的預算或者是新的一個項目是沒有辦法被執行的這個我想我們大家都心知肚明那目前總預算呢卡住的原因當然說我們今天下午一點半韓國瑜院長有在排朝野協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2953.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2962.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但是我們也知道這個卡住的原因目前大概就是三個理由其中國民黨最堅持的大概就是禁法補償這一項因為國民黨認為禁法補償有經過三讀有經過法律的一個審議當然這個正義點也在於說我們對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2972.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2995.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
當年度2019年所通過的財政的一個紀律法我們認為以財政紀律法第7條的精神我們在法律案在編列預算的時候不能違定額的經費或者是比例的一個保障這個是財政紀律法的一個精神那因為違反這樣的精神我們認為這件事我們可以好好來討論那行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2998.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3017.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
也有一定的誠意說好我們禁法補償我們從3萬先把它提升到4萬剩下的部分由基金來做一個處理所以也是盡量要達到國民黨的委員或者是我們希望給原住民禁法禁法補償要有給他的一個金額我想這個我們下午1點半也還要來進行來朝野協商我們期待的就是說我們趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3023.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3026.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就、就這樣的一個政治上的一個歧義我們找到一個平衡點啊平衡點要就拜託我們的國民黨我們不要再來擋這個總預算把它擱置在程序委員會我們希望說我們讓它復為 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3039.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3042.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們就來拜託你們接下來總召你會做不贏的這個召委這個陳玉珍召委跟我們的賴會員兩位召委你們一定會很忙因為你們也開始要緊鑼密鼓要開始一禮拜我們每年都會總議省每個部會他們明年編的預算到底有沒有何時編列這個預算有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3061.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3083.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
被浪費、有哪些需要刪減、有哪些需要凍結,我想這項會這麼多。所以有幾人我們現在都知道說我們最重要的項會是什麼總統職啊。我希望說我們今天這個財政收支劃分法,我們就把大家都有條文嘛。剛剛我自己也有條文,我自己對於水平分配我自己的一個主張。我就想我們就先收集好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3084.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3106.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
每個的意見我相信還有很多人對於財政收支劃分因為大家來自不同的選區來自不同的一個地域他們對於這個水平分配一定都有他們的看法我們就尊重我們再用多一點時間收集多一點法案我們不要急著今天就要就這個法案來做實質性的討論我幹嘛就是說這個真的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3114.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3118.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個重點啦!重點!因為我覺得這個牌子拿出來,我覺得是氣氛的比較壞啦!但是我也是要拿起來,因為我覺得說,召委,我們很重要的齁,我們不要黨總預算,然後一邊又要搶這一個齁, |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3133.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3152.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們這個月的預算,我覺得這樣起來是不好,我們這個會期我們就好好來處理我們的總預算,然後我們再用多一點時間,我們可以吸納更多的法案,讓大家快點拿出來,每個人都有每個人對於地方的一個看法吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3153.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3171.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我相信那會員委員他來自台南,台南有農業也有工業也有商業所以在這麼多情況之下我相信台南對於財政收支劃分法有他的一個主張對不對阿就那賴世保委員,賴世保本人很不簡單欸當年的財政紀律法在109、19年的時候就是賴世保 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3200.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3218.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那個 蔡委員如果你要繼續發言還是我們等一下再開放第二輪好不好我們會廣泛討論也有十幾分鐘你已經講了6分鐘了我們尊重一下後面委員的權利那個已經在按第三次了那個已經是按第三次了你已經3加1加1了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3222.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3231.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
財政紀律廣泛討論、廣泛發言。今天不要除條,你不用擔心啦,不除條啦。可以了可以了可以了。這個蔡委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3239.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3255.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
要給你尊重一下後面委員的發言對不對每一位都有發言的機會尊重一下喔會不會可以再來登記可以繼續發言會不會讓大家暢所欲言不用擔心廣泛討論還有等一下可以可以繼續登記繼續登記可以喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3268.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3276.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
陳旭寬已經宣布停止了啦我們當事班你再來登記好不好陳旭寬來等一下陳旭寬各位來來大家請先回座齁沒關係來 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3283.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3309 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
程序一發言剛剛已經登記截止如果大家講完的時候來不用聽我講不會不會我會讓他講完請大家回座齁剛剛說了沒有沒有沒有大家回座齁我們程序發言是3分鐘剛剛蔡議委員已經講了6分鐘了如果要再發言我們還有第二輪沒有關係大家不要急齁一定會讓大家我有排兩天的議程大家不用擔心齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3312.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3338.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個尊重後面委員發言的權利齁蔡委員後面委員也要發言啦那個現在我們那個等一下齁沒有沒有吵沒有吵請大家坐下蔡委員要發言繼續登記沒有問題齁請大家先回座請大家先回座不用擔心等一下再登記第二輪等一下第二輪等一下好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3339.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3364.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
不要吵!不要吵!各位委員,今天有充分的時間,我排了兩天,大家不要急喔!開不完晚上還可以再開,沒有關係喔!剛剛講太久已經影響到後面委員的程序來,請隨坐!剛剛這個是第一輪的...程序委員會3分鐘,他已經講了20分鐘了啦!沒有那麼影響到別人了啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3366.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3377.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
已經到新郎委員了沒有安捏對不對還可以第二次、第三次給你夠啊好來第二次再登記好來第二次再登記已經講20分鐘了還怎麼用還怎麼用好來各位我把規則再講一次喔未委員發言3分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3393.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3415.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我先再講一次喔大家注意聽一下每位人發言三分鐘到時候我們會按鈴按鈴我們繼續算每超過一分鐘我們會再按一次好嗎每人聽到剛剛他已經被按了四次鈴了已經六分鐘以上了我會讓大家暢所欲言不用擔心蔡委員你尊重一下那個下一位委員要講話了大家請坐下 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3418.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3443.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
等一下可以繼續講我們還有廣泛討論還有每個人都有可以一輪、二輪、三輪可以開到晚上大家不要急齁我們今天開到晚上也沒有關係齁我先等一下我還沒請你發請等一下我把這個秩序講一下每位委員3分鐘超過以後每1分鐘我們要再按一次鈴齁剛剛蔡議員說的這個預算請行政院趕快你也是幹部趕快求一下行政院趕快把預算編好依法編列進來我們趕快審齁好幹部回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3447.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3473.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對,有有有一直按啊,按到希望他下來對,一直按一直按但我學生要尊重一下後面的委員啦有啦,有一直按啦有一直按,有一直按有一直按,有一直按請大家尊重,你要再發言可以我們再讓你登記嘛好不好等一下我們可以在第二輪登記還有廣泛發言今天可以開到晚上大家不用急,這個是排到禮拜三的好嗎好,那接著 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3474.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3478.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
可以了齁 我們請第二位登記發言的委員齁好 我再講清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3481.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3509.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
程序發言每位委員發言3分鐘3分鐘到的時候我們會按一次0然後超過時間每1分鐘我們會再請這個紀錄台再按一次0希望大家自覺啦自覺尊重後面還要發言的委員那今天剛登記程序發言的委員總共有13位吳麗華也登記了13位嘛13位委員剛剛有問說有沒有要再登記的大家都沒有嘛那我等一下第二輪也沒關係第二輪我們再重新登記好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3512.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3533.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
還有大體討論也已經登記了我們也會進入大體討論這個都會大家不要急就是會讓大家廣泛的發言多多的發言暢所欲言大家可以挑燈夜戰我想官員要陪著我們還沒有還沒有等大家講完嘛等大家講完如果大家都照準時講完大概30幾分鐘後就有第二次 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3535.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3550.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
不知道,說不定沒有人要發言啊,還有廣泛討論啊。好,請等一下。好,我們接著,是不是讓這個登記程序發言的第二位委員吳秉銘委員發言。那每一位委員是3分鐘,請注意時間。要講可以再繼續登記,尊重後面登記的委員好嗎?好,請說。嗯。 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3562.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3590.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我覺得如果大家這麼想發言廣泛發言我們可以再登記第二次第三次也沒關係要看大家如果照遵守的話齁如果每個人都遵守三分鐘現在還有12位就36分鐘齁如果有人跟剛剛蔡委員一樣比較喜歡發就是有很多想法正面的很多想法想要讓大家知道可能是你一個小時齁這個要看大家遵不遵守秩序沒有每個人都三分鐘齁啊如果要遵守後面你可以再登記一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3593.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3593.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那根據這個我們議事規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3605.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3631.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
第58條列席委員不得做程序發言出席可以啦,出席可以等一下我看一下哪幾位,大部分都是本委員會的嘛一兩位而已啦,一兩位不是啦沒關係,後面不行我們劃掉你就會那你也是本委員會的嘛好啦,我們大家不要再提問,讓五名委員發言好嗎?有問題等一下再提好嗎?你先問 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3635.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3658.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這是什麼決定?非本委員會。那你已經發言了。對,沒關係沒關係。不過沒關係。好,好,OK。可以可以。那你請你坐下。我機會讓你繼續講,你坐著。要會議詢問也可以齁。好,請坐下來。好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3660.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3679.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
對、對。阿等一下另外再登記。另外再登記沒關係吼。等一下發言人我們會再給大家實現登記。等一下程序發言會照這一張。會照這一張。會照這一張、會照這一張。好。你請坐。我們會程序發言。不行。他說練習的不行。阿就啊。我們去登記呢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3681.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3689.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
規循可以登記。好,那你們要詢問我們等下讓你們登記,讓你們講。我們讓你們講。好。你們這樣弄錯了。對啊,你們弄錯了。我們現在是要去詢問。對。那某個方便的,某個方便的。對。你們都,你們都,你們都要講這個。你們都要分一詢問。一定盡量給你講。是不是要,到底分幾次啊?你分一詢問,是不是要分,分幾次啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3717.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3722.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對,我們會讓每位委員都發言,對對對,好,就是這樣子齁,OK,好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3733.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3760.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
然後我來跟大家講一下一般我們程序發言是3分鐘會議詢問是1分鐘那剛剛因為大家都登記了每一位都給3分鐘讓大家暢所欲言那如果發言完畢大家覺得不好但我希望大家要尊重因為你後面還有人要講你可以再來登記第二次我會再開放一次給大家登記再發言好嗎讓大家再講那登記講3分鐘到時候站起來的時候大家自覺的是說一下尾這樣還有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3760.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3770.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
每一件喔,本會委員我們來做這個程序翻,那如果非本委員你就上來做會議詢問沒關係齁,我們就讓大家上手預言。好,那大家都沒有意見,每一件吳秉輝委員。好,謝謝,終於輪到我了齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3774.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3781.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這張我是跟蔡宇宇我們的書記長借用的,的確我也贊成他的講法總預算卡住,沒有副委,財委會沒有總預算可以審查結果現在趕快要來弄這個財劃法,這個是不是不審預算只想搶錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3796.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3823.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他這個講法我是可以接受的但是我覺得這樣很不好其實財劃法他的修正牽涉到很大這不是光是有錢的垂直分配跟水平分配的問題因為你錢要拿錢要辦事嘛所以還有包括到底地方政府哪一些工作他要拿去做才能增加這麼多錢啊不然平白多這麼多錢掉下來給他他要幹嘛呢他要放到銀行存定存嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3824.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3835.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
還是說他趕快去找個地方蓋蚊子管然後來去消化這些預算呢所以光只有要把錢下放我覺得這個討論這個命題是不完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3837.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3865.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
應該要連地方制度法權如何分配哪一些事情要由中央撥到地方來搭配的錢的分配權跟錢要一起做整體的考慮所以我在這個地方建議召委無論是陳召委還是我們的賴召委應該對這一方面也要開公聽會啦稍微是陳召委開的公聽會只有關於這個垂直的錢如何分配水平如何分配的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3867.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3891.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這裡要包括事權的分配你錢拿到就有意義嘛錢拿到是要花在刀口上是要造福我們的國民的嘛那你只有光分配錢那只有中央錢少了那麼多中央本來他該做的事情算編不出錢來做結果地方該做的事情沒有增加突然多了一大筆錢突然多了幾千億那地方政府如果消化這個錢呢所以我覺得這樣的討論是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3896.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3910.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
欸 賴朝偉跟陳朝偉我是在帶你們對話說拜託你們說聽話要開啥啦要把地方制度法跟財劃法的大方向拿出來一起談不要光只有談財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3911.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3927.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
財政收支劃分法大家都知道涉及到垂直分配跟水平分配其實我們政府因為這兩年我們的財政收入都遠大於預算數所以到了年底的時候每一個地方政府都分配到很多的多一筆的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3929.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3935.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
統籌分配稅款因我的了解很多的縣市如果在目前的制度他要辦的事情現在錢都夠了他不但沒有負債還還了不少錢這是事實的狀況我們可以查證那如果在這個狀況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3944.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3965.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
你還要一口氣丟那麼多錢給他的時候他要如何消化所以我覺得這件事情我在這裡再提出我陳志的建議我希望陳昭偉跟賴昭偉你們除了財政收支劃分法要跟地方制度法一起並一起談談個大方向如何全、事權如何分配這樣子問題才有辦法全面謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3968.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3989.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
謝謝吳委員剛剛他說到這個地方支付法我們今天有出席的這個列席的這個內政部民政室專門委員有聽到回去要請內政部趕快提出相關的地方支付法的修正不然我們立法院是不會再等你們內政部民政室一定要記起來吳委員的這個發言的重點第二個是補助的部分我想地方政府要錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3990.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4013.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個也不會沒事做現在做的就是總統給的錢那現在是地方以後不用像乞丐一樣乞討就是照正常的這樣這樣的照他正常程序在走嘛民政司有記錄齁地方制度法要記下來齁這個要要修正同步要修正部分趕快齁身為執政黨要趕快的努力進行齁好接著我們請第三位賴司法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4027.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4035.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進看到今天這個場面就知道民眾黨團是由貝爾來的這個貝爾也沒有講清楚功課沒有做足他講說我們要一手搶五七七一億這個是舊的資料先是三千兩百多億你們資料都錯了 要做了看不到要做了 要蓋這要用手了 用手這版本 用手我知道你們助理在講什麼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4058.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4072.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們黨團最新的是三千兩百多啦有啦有啦有好啦沒關係啦這個今天啦我們知道這個民眾黨團我講話拜託尊重一下你講話我都沒差水我講一下就叫我講這樣這個大家知道民眾黨團不要這個案子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4085.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4092.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
今天給大家看都是一場戲啦齁那我們也尊重不過主席一直沒有講一句話主席說今天沒有主條啦所以你們今天用雞皮疙瘩啦今天也沒有主條你們要阻擋什麼呢今天就讓你們講一直講一直講今天講不夠禮拜三再講讓你一直講 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4111.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4130.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
啊你們說今天來是假來的啦 老實說 因為今天就不要主條都不要主條 連大體討論的緊張 還要程序發言 還要這個所以你們要 要杯葛 要 要軟杯葛 要看清楚今天其實是啥What's going on 啊了解一下 今天就沒要主條啊 啊 老實說 我還要會議詢問嘛為什麼今天不要主條 陳立正召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4140.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4152.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
你不要講一個本院的以前公聽會搞這麼久了主要民眾黨開了公聽會陳立正在開了公聽會然後從上個會期到現在已經幾個月了為什麼不要組條財政部藐視我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4156.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4168.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
明明說這個會期之前要提出他的本本也沒有後來才了解為什麼沒有卓榮泰在大院就講了他說目前這是最好的本本目前叫什麼皇帝安啟治把各地縣市政府、地方政府當作乞丐一樣我賞賜你啊給你這個啊今天你比較多你這個天氣好你效能比較多多給你一點就這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4186.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4208.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以很清楚看得到當然中央他要目前這個制度啊因為這個制度就是皇帝恩己治啊中央是皇帝、地方是乞丐啊就這樣啊故事就這麼簡單啊所以說財政分配、水水分配都非常重要剛才我已經提案了要連署一個東西就是我們以後每一年一定要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4215.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4216.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
一定要增加!修法以後一定要比修法以前的還增加!我也強調我也再次的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4227.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4246.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
三千兩百億國民黨團跟民眾黨團是很接近的三千兩百億垂直分別那你是水平大概分沒得財政部就先要怎麼分按照財政部目前的方法分三千兩百億的話只是差別很大以前以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4248.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4273.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
財政部、中央72%但是經過我們如果3200億在法律上就規定給地方政府的話大概降到60幾%左右我覺得這比較符合中央地方的一個平衡最後我們看到民眾黨團今天的訴求我知道在版本你的手本一直貼了所以要省中央政府總預算我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4275.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4280.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
所謂龍泰院長今天要犧牲了各位你們也不要這個世界化強得太硬了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4283.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4308.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
他說不定會亂布啊,他這個神盾撩亂啊但是他昨天那個臉書,昨天晚上臉書丟了,看不到你知道嗎哦,說要找小法官仲裁,那就是找那個大法官來為事啊大法官什麼時候變成民進黨的旁邊外圍組織啊好像黑道一樣啊,大法官像黑道一樣只要在這裡不喜歡的法案,民進黨不接受的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4309.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4335.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
他就找到老官為什麼進而補充條例的20億、27億他不給為什麼?因為在表決的時候民眾黨他們表決輸了結果表決輸了不然你們行政院提復議也沒有提復議賴清德總統也簽字公告了喔總統簽字公告的三讀後的法案為什麼行政院可以依法不編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4338.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4361.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
你不是一直講依法依法嗎?只要編到二十幾億,你要三兆二十幾億,你再編一筆!同情啊!或者你沒編,你一口就講!請總統派院長,沒跟我細算,還要我們去倒閣他!他如果真的要離開立法院,要離開行政院,他自己辭職的話,最後一句話,各位! |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4364.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4376.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4379.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4393.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
今天應該要足調了但是 早晚既然不足不足調我就尊重拜託下一次要排球要足調了啦要不然大家浪費大家的時間這個深頭一刀、縮頭一刀遲早要面對啦謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4396.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4411.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們謝謝賴司法委員我們今天要進行的是廣泛討論廣泛討論就是說大家針對財化法有什麼意見就暢所欲言民主時代讓大家暢所欲言但是現在進行的程序還在程序發言跟會議詢問接著我們請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在奈會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4424.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4426.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
王宏威委員,到了,叫訪問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4437.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4457.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好謝謝主席以及我們現場各位同仁還有官員那我想我們今天繼續的來審查財劃法主要是回應絕大多數的縣市包含民進黨執政縣市比如說台南市還有高雄市事實上在我們上個會期在審查的時候那麼我們財委會也有邀請各縣市的代表有的是副市長陳吉 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4466.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4485.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
絕大多數起碼也都是他們財政局長當時我全程聆聽那時候其實我沒有聽到哪一個縣市說不要修財化法我不曉得在座的這些現在來關心財化法的同仁們那天可能你們都沒有全程聆聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4486.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4509.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
當天現場可能各縣市可能提到的是說他也希望你要考慮到人口你要考慮到農地面積你要考慮到我的財政貢獻度但是沒有一個縣市反對修正財劃法這個必須要跟大家今天來關係的各位委員報告那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4510.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4533.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我們一直在講就是說因為現在財政部一直不願意提出修法版本但是我們各縣市都希望修法這才是我們立法委員、立法院應該要為民喉舌我們要為各縣市來表達他們的權益另外我覺得還有一件事情必須要跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4534.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4550.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
例如說我們也注意到我們的賴總統在國慶日的時候說我們明年度對各縣市的補助增加了八百九十幾億就將近九百億之多創新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4551.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4554.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
可是問題是我們現在的補助啊是不換寡而換不均非常的不平均別說從110年度到114年度連續5年 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4568.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4589.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
包含我們中央屹住的財源稅出的比例我們台北市都是最後一名但是想想看怎麼會每一年台北市我們受到的補助都是最後一名而幾乎每一年第一名都是台南市然後第二名都是高雄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4589.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4591.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好,所以我們應該知道就是說這6年來各縣市不管是它的財政的變化、人口的變化或者到產業變化都不一樣但是唯一不變的是這些補助永遠台北市敬佩莫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4608.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4621.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
永遠一二名的都是台南市跟高雄市所以這樣的補助如此不均我說不換寡而換不均如果今天的補助是看顏色來補助的話那對於極多 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4623.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4636.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
大多數的縣市都是非常非常不公平的事情所以我們才希望我們也期待我們大家能夠回應我們大部分縣市他們的一個要求能夠在財劃裡面修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4639.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4667.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
讓我們的各縣市它的財政自主權它的自有財源比例能夠提高所以也請我們執政黨的各位同仁們謝謝你們關心財劃法但是不要只有一天關心啊那麼如果你能夠長期的關心你就知道修正財劃法事實上是跨越藍綠地方縣市的大家共同心願以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4669.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4670.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
謝謝主席我覺得我還是必須要表達就是在這一次就是在野黨的一個修法那事實上有沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4696.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4707.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
國民黨的新版本基本上還沒有拿出來,那為什麼會有新的版本?當然他們也知道在第一次他們丟出來的一個版本一邊要搶5777億的一個預算,可是他一手 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4713.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4734.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
又要擋3兆的這個預算。這個顯然是非常錯亂啦。非常錯亂。為什麼?如果我們以國民黨目前提出的版本,他是要從中央多拿5000多億。可是,國民黨就是即使國民黨他提出來的一個修正版,中央也要再多釋出4000多億啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4735.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4751.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那現行的中央分配補助地方的一個統籌分配款跟補助款的1兆以我們是用114年的這個預算概括來看那依照國民黨提案通過等同中央要再給地方1.4兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4754.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4766.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
等於是說中央要再給地方一點視照啊這政府才會不會倒呢?政府絕對倒啊那我們不知道就是說國民黨他們存在的一個心態是什麼樣的一個心態 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4767.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4789.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
一手推這個財劃法要從中央大搬錢然後一手又去擋中央的一個預算那剛才剛才我們賴委員我們賴世保委員他有講說如果以目前來講的話中央是皇帝那地方是乞丐那怎麼讓他去吃在官廟說的這也很奇怪的不是貝殼啦我跟你講為什麼今天我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4797.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4818.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們民眾黨的議員來了這麼多這個其實是可以表示就是說我們不是來杯葛我們是非常重視這個財劃法那也不是來鬧場是因為我們重視所以我們希望就是說財委會它的每一個每一個就是環節裡頭都可以很精準的開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4819.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4840.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那在這裡我也是再一次跟陳一貞委員、趙委我們會再共同協商我想公聽會我們必須要再開因為公聽會的一個開法就是說我會主張就是地方跟中央不是只有錢的問題還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4843.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4866.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
事權,你這個事情誰來做啊?事情誰來做這個非常重要了。剛剛王洪威委員特別在點到我們台南我想這個他又有點那個片斷了,那斷章取義了。其實財劃法的分配25年來為什麼都沒有修?這個過程裡頭其實是有5次的一個修法。那如果就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4867.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4890.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
直轄市的一個申請的話其實它有很多建設案是申請的方式還是競爭的方式那你這樣子講台南是不公平的我們台南是很努力的這個要回到就是說整個財劃法裡頭中央跟水平的一個財務上的一個分配我們沒有真正的落實到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4891.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4915.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
事情 這個權利、事權怎麼分配這個是我的一個主張啦那當然就是說財法法距離上一次的修法是在1999年那經過了25年這期間也發生了就是在2010年2014年六度的合併跟升格的大事情那其實每一次中央跟地方前線的一個衝突的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4917.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4920.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4941.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4942.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們還可以再討論。謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4963.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4991.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們謝謝賴會員、委員不過那個民進黨團是不是弄錯我們要審的我們要審的版本你說黨的總計算這是114年明年的版本但是修財文法不可能114年就適用最快最快也是115年這是兩個潮態的事情兩個連分的事情這個審的是114我們現在總計算沒有送假那是114的那修財文法最快適用也是115這怎麼會是一件事情不會混為一談 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4997.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5008.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
但是你那個說一手擋預算一手搶預算一個是114一個150不是同一個事情所以我們也會充分討論我們也會充分討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5017.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5036.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好,會讓大家充分討論齁那大家如果覺得對各縣市不公平我們這個對台灣市不公平我們才會有兩位台灣市的委員嘛至少也可以提出版本啦齁歡迎好,快共通也可以趕快下禮拜賴哲偉輪值就可以拍了嘛好,接著我們請李坤城委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5047.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5071.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
主席齁 這其實齁我上禮拜這個供電會齁其實我就提到了齁就是說我們在講這一個財務法的這個劃分那錢跟勢要來統一啊齁那你之後在講說錢要怎麼去分配那你沒有講說那這個接下來各個地方政府跟中央政府的這個勢權要去怎麼做劃分那所以我說你財務法修 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5072.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5089.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
國安很重要那但是呢關於這個地方支出法是不是也要修那也很重要啊內政部今天如果是今天是部長來他們就好好來談嘛今天不是部長來啊對不對以後我們會請更高階的官員過來對啊所以說我是說啊如果真的要討論的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5090.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5118.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
市的事情要討論、企業的事情要討論那我們當然財政委員會你要把這個財務法修得好那當然兩個要一起討論嘛那所以說上次辦了一個工天會我就覺得還可以再討論不論是這個陳昭偉或是未來我們這個賴昭偉的部分關於地方制度法如何因應在這個財務法修正之後市權如何去做調整分配這個很重要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5119.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5134.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那我拿這個齁,我認為這個是心態的問題啦原本這個時候,財委會應該要討論這個明年度的總預算啦沒有啊,我們現在是優先來討論未來有可能要做的這個財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5136.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5162.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那如果大家覺得說財務法很重要啊我要從中央多挖一些錢啊地方政府要這個水平分配要怎麼去分配更合理那其實我們應該先讓總預算先來討論啊先討論總預算啊你沒有討論這個總預算那你就在想說未來這個財務法通過之後這個地方政府可以多拿到多少錢然後地方政府要怎麼去分我說啊這個不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5163.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5181.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
今天就算通過了,明年這個就要適用。我說是心態的問題。這一黨心態的問題。就是說,最重要的擺在眼前的總預算,大家不討論。那請問一下,那明年各個地方政府,他的錢是哪裡來?他錢是哪裡來? |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5184.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5186.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
現在各個縣市政府都在討論總預算那反正這個原來的計劃照用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5202.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5224.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
立法院在野黨黨中央的總預算那地方也不用審了啊那第一個中央的預算你撥不到地方啊那第二個一樣嘛按照這個在野黨的說法不用審預算預算照用啊原來的計畫照用啊那呼籲啊各個地方政府現在也不用審查總預算啊都不用審查嘛那整個預算都擺在那邊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5226.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5229.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
人民百姓希望看到這種情況嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5229.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5230.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
不願意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5230.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5251.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以我看到這個在總詢詢的時候好多個在野黨的立委他們在跟院長在討論就是說我地方上這個地方水利建設、軌道建設、交通建設、城鄉建設都需要中央政府希望能夠來協助、希望能夠來補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5253.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5282.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
結果在中央講的是頭頭是道在地方是講的是說我在中央爭取了多少預算回到我們地方結果沒有啊你是在中央你是在台北擋這個預算啊你在台北你在立法院擋預算那結果你回到地方之後說你看我在這個立法院在地方爭取了多少預算回來空的啦這個欺騙地方的老百姓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5283.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5305.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
地方老百姓又問你一句說啊你不是在黨總預算嗎啊你在黨總預算啊你為什麼還要說什麼你就徵取了多少預算回來這不是很矛盾的事情嗎所以我是希望說固然修改財務法很重要但是我剛才認為說我講的就是說事權的統一的部分有關地方制度法這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5306.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5325.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是不是大家也能夠來討論所以你今天沒有逐條討論基本上是肯定的因為二十幾個版本你要怎麼討論啊二十幾個版本我不知道要怎麼討論起啊就算你們國民黨裡面內部的歧義也很大啊那國民黨跟民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5326.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5350.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
也不一樣啊所以我不知道說這20幾個版本怎麼逐條討論起這是第一個第二個再次呼籲再次呼籲總預算趕快先審這個時候我們應該要在財委會裡面好好去審查明年度的總預算了那不是在這邊還在討論說這個財務法要怎麼修啊等等之類的可以嗎?謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5354.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5376.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我等一下可以再發言,因為後面還有很多的委員要講話。我有講6分鐘了嗎?這樣子。我以為是3分鐘而已啊。好,謝謝。謝謝我們這個李坤城委員。綜合剛剛李委員所說的齁,這一次這個列席的這個官員齁,內政委的官員層次太低齁,下一回記錄一下一定要請最少...你們說沒有部長也來不夠嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5379.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5395.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對!對!對!青年次專委層次比較低嘛!好!OK!好!你那時候部長來採購記得喔!下次邀請部長!下次邀請部長!好!我們記下來!李坤東委員我們下次修草案一定邀請部長過來!內政部部長喔!內政部記一下!還有已經第二次! |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5397.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5423.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
啊,OK,好,因為專門委員的位階比部長低了,好,就是下次我們要邀請部長、專門委員請記下來,內政部記下來。第二個,這是第二位委員說要修地方制度法,請內政部要趕快的提出地方制度法的修正。然後第三個他說的是,我們要趕快修這個審議算,這個是事實啦,但是立法院不是只有短期經歷,只看明年預算,國家的長治久安也很重要,所以這個財富辦法也是應該修正的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5424.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5439.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
都要,同步要做,同步要做。好,這歸納李委員的發言,大概是這幾點。認證部要特別記下來喔,要提地方制度法喔。來,接著我們請張海林委員做會議詢問喔,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5452.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5477.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
主席好、各位委員好但我想在我發言之前我想要先做兩點的說明就是說剛剛賴氏堡委員有說我們今天不是要來杯葛的我必須鄭重的澄清我們並不是要來杯葛我想作為一個關心國家總預算的立法委員我們都應該要來為我們的總預算能夠敬、能夠奉偉來做好好的說明跟爭取第二件事情我想要來做個說明是剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5479.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5504.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
陳玉珍主席他說李昆城委員覺得我們這次邀請的層次太低我想我必須來說明層次跟層級的兩個差異我想如果陳玉珍委員需要字典我也可以送過去那再來就是說針對我們這一次剛剛前面有非常多的委員其實都有提到就是說我們總預算到現在此時無法赴委可是我們現在卻要來進行一個財化法的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5506.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5520.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我們現在114年總預算都還沒有著落去討論115年是不是有點次序不分重要性的排序搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5522.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5548.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我想,因為其實我們這陣子因為我的責任區在桃園的盧竹跟龜山還有大園我們常常也都會遇到國民黨的委員在地方說跟鄉親說我會回去幫你們爭取預算我會去跟中央來爭取但是已經第五次黨總預算了我不知道是不是太習慣我們的國民黨委員都太習慣來開這個空口支票不好好的來做我們立法院的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5549.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5567.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那上個月就是9月財政部公布了明年度的中央統籌分配稅款總額達到了歷史新高4461.17億元那這個總預算如果不通過那請問這些資源該怎麼分配所以我要再次的來呼籲我們希望國民黨的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5568.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5589.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
一起來支持我們114年總議會的順利審查這關係到我們所有所有全體國民的一個福利那同時我也發現國民黨這次提出的一個財劃法將對中央的財政造成巨大的衝擊讓我們不得不正視這幾個重大的影響第一個中央稅法減少之後我們的中央稅路將大幅的減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5590.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5604.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
約4千多億元。為了維持財政紀律,中央舉債數不應再增加,就只能縮減我們的稅出規模。同時,因為無法刪除我們這些法律義務支出,像是人事費、社會保險支出、還有教育經費, |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5605.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5620.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以呢我們就會有一些計劃要受到影響那這幾個計劃其實對我來說我非常關注因為我一直都是在做兒童權利跟兒童相關福利的像是少子化對策會直接少了291億還有強化社安網的第二期計劃75億我們我想凱開案這些案子大家都記憶猶新如果我們不來積極的強化佈局這些事情我們難道要讓事情再發生嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5632.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5645.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
每次當事件出來的時候大家都說我們要來極力的打擊這件事情強化我們的社安網可是我們現在的作為是完全不省而且我們甚至把這些計劃的經費可能都會受到影響這是這個財劃法非常危險的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5646.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5674.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
再來還有就是說我們的前瞻特別預算像是我們的這些提升人行安全計劃整體性的治山防災計劃其實都會受到影響山坨和颱風帶來的影響性大家我想都記憶猶新那還有我們這個行人安全的事情我們不要因為現在的這些財化法的一個錯誤的分配造成我們的縣市沒有辦法我們現在國家這個整體的計劃沒有辦法在縣市好好的去推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5675.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5704.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
最後我還是想要講因為剛剛王宏威委員有講到說其實大家的共識都是可以來修財劃法但後面有一句話叫做奇異很大這個奇異很大呢其實還需要做更多充分的討論而且事權的分配到底應該要如何的分配不能夠只拿錢不辦事嘛不負任何的權利所以我希望可以在充分的討論收集大家的意見讓我們如果我們要做這件事情的話就好好地把事情做好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5713.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5733.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
謝謝張雅琳委員雖然聽到最後不知道要回應詢問什麼事情我不知道你在詢問什麼不過謝謝你對本人的指正謝謝喔本人是念台大中文系對語言應該潛質用字有一定的水準喔好 謝謝接著我們請范芸這個我學姊喔 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5736.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5740.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好,我會認真檢討喔這我學姐喔,謝謝那個先請主席喔在我發言完之後不要任意評論好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5749 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5764.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我是聽不懂他在會議詢問什麼主席不是AI主持人請做意識中性的評論非常中性我在問他說他到底要詢問什麼講完以後我都聽不到他的詢問程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5772.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5797.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我想今天我們的會議詢問很一致是為什麼這是預算會期不審總預算卻要修法搶總預算而且我要講的是我當立委跟陳玉珍委員我不知道陳玉珍委員當過幾年我當4年過去我們在預算會期如果要審法案的話都是審很少數非常有共識的法案不會去審那個爭議這麼的大然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5800.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5814.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好好審查總預算卻要修法強總預算沒有共識的法案先回到不審總預算這件事情藍白國民黨有很多講法包含什麼綠能你不能開記者會後來我去查證事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5818.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5829.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
民眾黨過去是少數那從來沒有像這樣子在程序委員會就黨遇上而且五度黨大家自己可以去查證這個謊言說得太誇張了然後宣稱完全沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5834.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5858.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
根據預算法第54條那新興資本支出及新增計劃沒有審查的話都不能動用那非常多的包含就是癌症百億基金就是青年圓夢這些新興的計劃其實都無法動用如果沒有就是按照我們表定功課審查難道大家要在最後一秒就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5859.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5881.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
一天之內審查完畢嗎?這樣也不是我們立委該做的過去這幾年在這個時候我們就應該好好的認真的審預算了那我想以今天這個主題財劃法為什麼說沒有共識以我看到的國民黨的版本對財政的影響第一個剛剛很多都講過修法後中央稅入大幅減少4080億 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5884.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5905.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那你中央的稅服稅務減少卻要求一般性的補助款不能減少而且依照法律義務支出的基本上不能夠因為財政困難中央任意刪除結果呢把這些法律義務的支出的預算扣掉之後中央還剩多少錢中央只剩下3689億 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5909.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5930.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
3689億中央要做多少事所以以下這些都是中央可能會被迫要刪減百分之三十一就是接近三分之一才能夠處理的例如國防預算2945億可能要被迫31%勞保基金補助中央興辦社會住宅強化社會安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5931.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5955.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這個期屬役還有癌症防治還有教育經費還有我關心的小子女化托育公共化而0到2歲的兒童基金那各位說這些事情地方來做我們想想看你信任地方嗎地方財政紀律惡化惡名昭彰經常加碼非法訂設服以某縣市為例某個 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5956.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5972.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們東部知名縣市他把教育經費拿去辦營養午餐為了選票說每個兒童都要有雞腿的營養午餐結果兒童吃到太大的冷凍的營養午餐因為沒有辦法好好地煮好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5972.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5996.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
然後呢這個交易經費被任意支用結果大量使用代理教師那這個是我在質詢的時候已經提過的這個就是最惡劣的地方財政紀律的惡化所以呢我想過去的公聽會已經講到社權支出要平衡目前的版本都沒有做到這樣子那在這種情況下我請問主席為什麼不好好的審總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5999.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6012.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
卻修法要搶總預算而且完全沒有學者專家認定的平衡版本出現所以我認為這是我今天覺得對主席最重要的詢問希望主席的中文程度有聽懂好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6014.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6035.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
非常謝謝范委員我會正式的回答請范委員對我們財政委員會的委員要有信心預算進來以後我們一定會即便挑燈夜戰不眠不休我們都會把總預算審查完畢不用擔心我們財委會委員都是早上4點多就到立法院來簽到的我們會從早審到晚大家不用擔心謝謝接著我們請郭益勤委員做會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6057.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6078.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
主席好然後各位立法院的同事大家好剛剛其實真的聽了一輪下來我們講到預算其實是我們的國家政策的一個重要的核心因為它直接影響到我們的社福影響到我們的基礎建設影響到我們的教育影響到我們的長照影響到我們的醫療各個方面但是預算一定要合理的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6079.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6090.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
才能夠讓我們的經濟成長。我想這一點其實大家都非常非常的清楚。那現在的國民黨黨版本他們是要求中央要釋出15%的一個稅收。這個會直接擠壓到什麼?我直接講,直接擠壓到我們的一般的學費的補助。將近有64萬的學生會被影響。再來租屋的補助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6101.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6118.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
還有育兒的津貼甚至於長照的部分都有可能會被擠壓那另外像是地方在執行一些項目往往會跨縣市我舉個例子來講比方說像我們的一些重大的交通建設捷運等軌道這個其實都是需要中央跟地方來溝通跟協調的如果現在要要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6122.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6137.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
像是國民黨提出的這個版本要大幅的刪減中央的財源那就一定會影響到要扣減所謂的計劃型的補助款那如果資源比較不夠的縣市該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6137.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6143.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
另外我要回答一下剛剛有一位這個王委員他在講說現在大家都說要修財劃法沒錯過去25年來當中也不止一次我們提說要修財劃法但為什麼到最後其實無疾而終就是因為沒有共識嘛現在我們已經刪減了所謂的這個指標已經刪減到只剩52個 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6160.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6188.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
刪減到20幾個是比較不客觀、不普遍性的這個指標剩下52個目前達到共識的,抱歉,只有5個而已也就是說還有47個指標是沒有達成共識沒有達成共識為什麼要硬想要修而修為反而反,為修而修這個不是真的本末倒置嗎那我講以台北市為例啦剛剛也特別講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6189.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6213.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
六都的統籌分配的一個占比台北市113年、114年是增加了0.03%喔另外呢還有桃園市增加了多少0.16%喔剛剛又有委員說我們是在看顏色給補助抱歉啦我們以六都、高雄市、台南市民進黨執政的113年、114年是皆下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6219.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6240.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
兩個都是下降0.03所以我們到底哪一個在看顏色給補助我想這個部分不要在這邊變成一種造謠我們好好的講、好好的說那另外我真的要提的在程序委員會當中我們114年度只剩下最後的兩個多月我們的總預算都沒有過 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6241.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6256.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
總預算一直不斷的被擋沒有付為審查現在呢一手要擋我們114年的總預算一手又要從中央挖錢我想我的問題非常非常的清楚請問這個邏輯到底是在哪裡另外我補充齁6月18號黃珊珊委員她說她絕對不會支持國民黨提出的財劃法的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6267.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6292.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我想這個部分藍白之間如果還有旗艦還有共識我們再來討論以上是我的報告謝謝謝謝郭益勤委員對就是有旗艦所以才要我們多開委員會來討論那我請財政部聽到剛剛郭委員所提到的52個指標裡頭現在只有5個有共識請你們要加快速度達成共識這是委員的期許接著我們請陳佩玉委員余詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6302.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6320.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好 謝謝主席我想要複製一下剛剛范委員的說法請主席不要評論委員的發言 謝謝另外我想要幫大家立法院科普一下因為今天應該有直播剛剛主席說挑登業戰也會把預算審查完我想要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6321.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6338.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
全台灣關心立法院關心預算關心我們每一天生活的公民我們難道要的是這樣的預算審查品質嗎但是主席公開的說就算挑燈夜戰也要把它審完我要再一次的問我們真的要的是這樣的預算審查品質嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6340.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6356.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
主席您自己非常關心離島的建設你在上週五的院會甚至還提出來關於離島建設基金的部分所以我想問主席你是用這樣子的預算審查品質在關心離島建設嗎?我自己在教育文化委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6356.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6372.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
教育文化非常多的議題常常都不是政治討論的主流他也不容易上新聞版面但是教育跟文化的工作是扎根的工作是面向未來的工作是國家發展重要的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6372.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6391.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我們自己在教育文化委員會每一次遇到重要法案討論我們都希望有高度的共識我們可能會有些微的差異但是大家在有共識的情況下積極進行討論所照顧到是每一個重要的我們關心的孩子跟教育文化的發展所以我要再次呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6392.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6412.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
雖然我的時間有限我還是希望在相關財政收支劃分法方不管是地方、不管是中央我們大家要有高度共識再來進行討論就連國民黨自己的版本也有20幾個版本所以我要再次呼籲希望主席也要呼籲如果你真的要回應我的評論就請你回應你要的給人民的預算審查品質是挑燈夜戰嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6416.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6439.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好,如果大家不願意在現在就開始花時間好好的討論、好好的規劃好好的服應各個地方的需求各個委員會的需求請問我們要講出一個什麼樣的國家如果主席你真的很愛回應也歡迎你回應這件事情接下來我要幫大家再科普一下剛剛主席又說凌晨4點財政委員會就有來簽名了啦但是大家我們實際上開會是9點鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6442.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6460.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
9點鐘開會到12點如果中間還要休息不管要不要休息挑燈夜戰下去的品質是什麼我們在教育現場都告訴孩子我們要考試的時候我們要事先的準備我們要事先的準備是為了更好的考試品質但是身為國家立法委員我們卻是這樣面對預算我要再次呼籲一點都沒有離題因為如果國民黨要用這個態度民眾黨要用這個態度要擠壓時間的方法來審查預算我相信絕對是人民不樂見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6471.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6490.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
回應到今天主席要我們認真的提問那我就來問從國眾兩黨所有的版本裡面不僅是金額相差非常懸殊還有你們一直要把中央的餅叫中央把餅做大不管是統籌分配管或是垂直分配的部分所有的討論如果都還不夠具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6490.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6511.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
都還不夠聚焦,那就拜託召委,不管是國民黨還是民進黨的召委,都請再積極召開公聽會,讓更多的專家學者甚至不同議題不同主題的專家學者都進來一起討論。我相信這樣的討論由高度的共識,大家在審查法案的時候,在分配的預算的時候都還會考慮到區域的平衡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6514.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6527.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
過去我十幾年住在花蓮大家都知道花蓮是偏鄉如果按照國民黨現在非常多委員的版本你們只討論到人口那請問花蓮的爭議性又在哪裡?張瑋你自己來自離島我相信你更可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6528.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6553.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
接下來當我們把錢這樣分下去的時候請問各縣市政府有提出自己要做的事情的詳細規劃嗎?我們以現在手邊我們可以看到的資料各地方政府財政紀律不彰的相關案例以桃園市來說目前非法定社會福利的措施落在非常多的地方如果昭瑋你剛剛說預算有分顏色那我也要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6554.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6570.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
各地方政府在用這些預算有沒有不當的使用甚至是一種所謂的政治紅利買票的概念例如說老年市民三節禮金、重陽勤勞禮金、公私立國中小免費營養午餐、老人免費補助活動假牙這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6570.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6588.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
都屬於非法定社會福利措施而如果地方沒有建立自己的財政紀律我們把所有的錢都搬到地方去難道我們要看到地方是這樣子用這些財政預算的嗎?那我就不再舉例有多少縣市有類似的問題所以我想我的詢問就到此謝謝主席 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6594.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6623.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
第一個陳委員因為他要我回應嘛他剛是公開許我他要我正式回應第一個你說挑針業戰挑針業戰是我們說會挑針業戰把這個預算審查好像我們參加這麼多年在委員會裡或在草野協調都審到12點我們都很認真的審查所以挑針業戰不等於是品質不好這個不是同一個邏輯啦這個表示我剛講會挑針業戰表示我們要審查預算審查法案的這個決心一定是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6624.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6642.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
有這個決心第二個因為民黨常常說沒有討論不是民主所以我就充分讓大家討論所以才需要很多的時間大家等一下也可以繼續有第二輪的登記跟發言第三個有關於我們財委會有委員4點多就來我想陳委員是不分區的人可能不理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6642.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6659.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
很多委員5點、6點我們就要到菜市場就要到路邊去送公車送這個選民所以4點多起床開始到公園去跟民眾打招呼跟選民打招呼是我們的責任不表示我們的工作品質不好因為我們都樹葉斐洩第4點公聽費的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6661.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6678.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
開會之後我們4點就來因為才會有這個規矩啊4點多就可以來簽名然後大家簽完名就回選區去拜訪選民去公園跟選民黨招呼啊這很多財委會委員都是這麼認真的啊不是只有國民黨民黨也是有的人是這樣子的所以4點就來不表示不認真或是品質不好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6680.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6707.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
公聽會的部分上會期羅明才召委針對財劃法已經辦過一次公聽會本會期本席也辦過一次公聽會當然如果民進黨召委願意舉辦公聽會下個禮拜要趕快舉辦公聽會我們當然也是節成歡迎但是我們不因為有沒有民進黨委員舉辦公聽會而停止我們修法的這個決心我們會繼續往前推進長治久安是重要的我們必須往前走接著我們請林業行委員做會議詢問 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6709.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6709.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6722.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6746.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們今天要討論的是我們的財政發分法剛才我們的召委講說民進黨怎麼一直在處理那個114年的事情總預算怎麼不我們在財化法事實上是115年才會成行明天的事情不解決先去解決後天的事情也讓人家覺得很納悶啦那中央的補助款除了一般性的補助通常過去也會透過我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6747.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6763.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
前瞻計劃跟特別預算來協助地方發展拉近城鄉差距根據我手邊的資料財政部的資料可以看到除了通酬分配款另外會搭配一般性跟計劃型的補助來益助地方的財源 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6764.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6793.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
近年役注的財源從103年的5486億元那逐年成長到114年的1兆151億元所以可供地方來編列預算跟依需求來規劃運用簡單的說也就中央想盡各種辦法把財源送到地方可是要合情合理啊符合應該要遵守的我們的財政紀律剛剛范雲委員說相信各地方政府首長嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6796.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6804.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
各縣市政府首長有受觀念是難原賠策以桃園市為例民進黨執政的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6806.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6809.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6827.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6836.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
可是我們的張市長上任之後老人年金馬上還是回到2500還把我們的刪除排付條款的規定所以財政負擔一下成長了27.1億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6840.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6854.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
目前我們很多縣市都在履行選舉的一個承諾所以就會增加了就像剛剛范雲委員講的非法定的社會預算那用桃園為例非法定的社會預算從2022年的59億已經成長到2023年的87億成長了28億增加了28億 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6864.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6889.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我同意應該把這些給予民眾更多的社會福利但是依據以及跟欠缺通盤長期考量的社會福利只是為了選舉開、兌現你的支票的時候反而會壓縮下一代的權益我們年輕家庭現在已經是少子化的時候是每一個需要他來努力我們的下一代的時候結果呢反而是沒有那舉例來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6891.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6891.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6912.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6929.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
根中央殺雞取卵因為中央預算合理分配主要是協助地方縮小城鄉差距那人口比較少的城市仍然可以享有跟全國同樣的福利跟建設所以如果用人口來計算的話比率過高那就變相 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6930.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6953.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
鼓勵國人還是往人口稠密的地方靠近這個我們必須神聖考量第二個分配額度如果過大的話沒有謹守財政紀律的誘因簡單來說錢太多會亂花就像我剛剛講的桃園若地方可支配的財源的話增加我們濫發非法定福利預算的話沒有設定牌付條款的話那憑著感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6956.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6968.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
選票考量這勢必會壓縮到下一代所以希望大家能夠理性並以國家整體為考量來一起來討論我們的財法法然後我們該如何調整才不會造成大者恆大 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6970.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6988.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主席我講完了我也希望主席不要主觀詮釋我剛才講的或加以評論因為我看起來我們前面好幾個委員你都會加以評論主席不是應該是客觀的立場嗎我沒有要你回應所以你也不應該有多說你自己的主觀評論謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6992.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7007.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主席是要保持意識中立,不是表示主席不能有自己的意見。我不是AI機器人喔。來,好,謝謝林委員的會議詢問,雖然不知道詢問什麼。來,下一位。欸?林楚英委員在嗎?好,林楚英委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7016.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7033.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
謝謝主席本席大概是這個本會期現在開議之後第一次在這個發言台但是過去4年本席都在財政委員會也跟我們許多這個資深的財政委員們一起來討論有關財政的部分我想財政的部分應該是最沒有藍綠的問題但是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7036.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7046.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
在權力的分配也就是錢的分配之外其實事權的分配也非常重要不過在會議詢問之前本席想先做一下說明因為前面剛剛賴氏寶委員有特別提到是說現在民進黨的版本是一個所謂N次的版本我覺得這樣的一個講法是不恰當的因為我必須說除了過去8年蔡英文總統執政之外再往前推這個執政的是馬英九 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7064.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7090.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
前推當然就是陳水扁總統再往前推呢就是李登輝總統我要講的就是其實民進黨、國民黨其實分別都有執政那這個財化法的過程當中馬英九執政的時候他也沒有試圖要來做修正的話那麼現在如果要講這個所謂N次的版本的話那麼國民黨恐怕也在其中所以我認為在這個部分必須要先說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7091.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7117.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
另外當然就是有關於委員們提到的這個台南、高雄這個所謂在統籌分配稅款當中都是名列前茅我覺得這個說法當然就是一個錯誤的假訊息我們都知道很多的預算它其實還包含申請型的、競爭型的那麼台北市其實我自己現在也居住在台北市台北市身為首都那麼它當然得天獨厚的它擁有了許多 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7121.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7137.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
在預算上面尤其是公共建設上面的相關的這個所謂大家知道的為了建設首都那麼預算的預注都是比較多的但是其他競爭型的或者是申請型的偏鄉比如包括花蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7138.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7165.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
或者是南部地區或者是中部這些需要建設的地區他就會來做競爭其實這樣放在一起比較其實不合理的我知道台北市有委員所提出來的版本針對首都就要多加3%可是統籌分配稅款大家攀開來一看就知道台北市永遠都是第一名第一名的城市還要多加3%這個合理嗎最後剩下30秒的時間我所要做的會議詢問當然就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7169.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7195.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
現在時間來到了10月21號就是剩下兩個月又10天我們114年度的總預算就要截止我們的法定審理的時間但是剛剛提出來的統籌分配稅款的相關的地方財政收支劃分法它急嗎?也許地方上還有許多包括市權隨著 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7199.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7212.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
經費預算的轉移必須要好好來討論的地方政府當你拿到這些錢之後你怎麼處理大家關注的交通建設還有就是社會福利建設的這些預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7213.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7236.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
本期要詢問的就是當現在我們還在面臨總預算114年度只剩下兩個月又十天的時間才能審查為什麼現在要來特別去講這個各個縣市包括市權隨著錢的轉移的時候還沒有討論好的時候地方怎麼樣來處理這些因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7241.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7266.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
錢而轉移出來要來處理的包括地方預算的建設、教育、社會福利甚至於租屋補貼等等另外本席這個會期在國防外交委員會我們都知道國防非常重要而且他必須由中央來進行統籌所以本席在這裡要詢問的就是時間有限是不是可以先來處理比較緊急的總預算114年度總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7268.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7272.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
然後我們再花多一點的時間來讓各縣市政府針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7275.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7296.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
接下來要面對如果總預算地方總結分配稅款有一些挪移的時候我們再把這個修法再做細部的調節跟討論好嗎?謝謝主席謝謝林淳雲委員本席再回答一次就是請執政黨的委員趕快回去跟行政院院長說趕快把依法應該編列的預算趕快編進來編進來就可以趕快的進行審查趕快依法編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7304.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7332.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這是剛回答林子芸委員的這個詢問第二個他說那在這個時候我們為什麼要討論這個財劃法呢因為立法委員不是只做眼前的事情還要為國家的長治久安的長遠制度做討論所以這個原因是我們要修這個已經20年沒有修的法令也要為國家的財政制度好好的做一個討論這是今天排這個法案的這個原因好 謝謝接著我們請伍麗華委員做程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7342.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7368.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
謝謝主席我很高興剛剛聽到您說只要依法編列就可以來審查總預算那我等一下也來說明一下但是我現在要先講財化法我有提案我有修法那這個歷史故事我先跟各位報告一下因為在這個財化法到現在的25年地制法已經修了15次 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7370.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7384.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那麼對我們原住民來講有一些原來的鄉他們從我們的政府兩都變六都他們也從鄉變成區但是引起嘩然 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7385.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7399.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
因為這個六都的原住民鄉何其無辜他們突然之間失去了公法人地位因此在2014年又再次修改地制法第83條之7結果這一改更不得了為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7404.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7423.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
雖然身體已經變成了公法人但是完全沒有財政自治因為我們的地制法呢把原來的修法變成各三地鄉前三年稅客收入的平均數導致他們的稅客收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7424.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7446.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
奏降為零。這些年來他們幾乎八成以上都要仰賴政府的補助這也就是為什麼這次財化法大家一直說我們的地方的財政其實是相同的狀況但是我要說我希望大家好能夠一同的來修地質法 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7447.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7465.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們還有公債法的問題要不然我覺得原住民只是被拿來當提款機所以這個部分就是呼籲大家朝野希望把過去的這個歷史錯誤能夠一同的來支持修我們的財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7465.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7471.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
第3條把直轄市山地原住民區擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7489.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7491.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
但是我覺得禁法補償這一條是假議題是沒有錢的不值得拿來當提款機的而且我們真的何德何能要因為這個假議題去擋全國的總預算所以我就跟大家說明禁法補償金完全依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7508.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7524.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
因為在105年主計總署、主計長在這邊他們就已經發文給原民會用公務預算跟原住民重發基金各辦編列如果有不足的地方回撥但是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7525.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7543.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我覺得好笑的是竟然我們在禮拜五又跑去說怕基金沒有錢所以呢要來修法基金不會沒有錢主計長在這邊他是特種基金的作業基金我們不應該去把 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7543.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7568.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
剩餘跟短處解釋為基金會破產反而呢要去製造一個枷鎖竟然要去把它去做一個定額的修法比照花東基金那我覺得這個修法是莫名其妙的所以我在這個地方就是拜託說請大家既然我們是依法編列大家可以來討論如果真的依法編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7569.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7592.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
趕快推動審查總預算因為這個問題比什麼還嚴重現在我們在炒這個財化法大家都知道因為沒有共識雖然地方的餅做大了但是中央統籌跟一般分配款會減少內閉地方會增加可運用的經費這就是為什麼不是雷大雨小根本是雨大雷大不雨不下雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7596.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7612.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
地方政府很清楚知道因為每個地方政府的財政狀況都不一樣很難有一致的意見所以我在這邊還是拜託一下我覺得很多的事情大家好好坐下來討論真理越辯越明希望能夠趕快推動我們的中央總預算謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7615.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7639.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝吳立法委員這個已經是第三位委員提到內政部要提出地方制度法的修正第三位執政黨委員還有財政部有聽到吳委員所說的公債法也要一併提出來然後吳委員的意思是6萬塊沒有問題是嗎?絕對沒有問題那你要跟行政院長請他公開講絕對沒有問題左院長說的我們就當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7646.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7654.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
總共加起來要6萬對吧,沒問題嗎?那請院長講喔,來好接著我們請這個登記14號的郭國恩委員做程序發言,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7680.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7705.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
謝謝主席,主席雖然我不是念中文的,但我叫國文希望國文跟中文對話你都理解好,今天大家都在討論這個財法法我今天必須說啊,那個國民黨的這個黨團的行為啊令人有一點難理解,甚至是錯亂他從財法法的部分在推,可是總預算的時候在擋 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7706.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7727.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
一推一擋,那叫一毛一頓,這叫矛盾的行為。他現在不審總預算,所以在搶修財務法。那個這種矛盾的行為會造成怎麼樣的影響?我直接講結果好了。一來呢,他在破壞體制。二來呢,他在癱瘓中央。可以說如此, |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7729.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7748.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
其實你當說不論是總預算也好或財劃法也好跟這個體制預算結結相關也牽扯到中央跟地方政府但是提到的是說剛剛一直在提說我們財劃法要推是為了地方國民黨黨團如果真的為了地方的話那我覺得首先要通過的應該是總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7751.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7769.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
總預算如果沒有通過的話那麼我們只能用到的所有的一般的預算不過是法定需要支出的人事預算的部分不過是七八成之多而已而兩成多之多高達九千億左右的整個新興預算根本無法動用 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7770.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7793.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這些信息預算是誰要的?多半多碼是地方政府一直想要期待的社福預算、基礎預算、治理預算還有包括軌道運輸等等預算。如果國民黨對地方政府是如此的心疼的話,那應該趕快通過總預算才對啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7794.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7813.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以這個地方牽扯到總預算另外一個部分牽扯到的那也是地方政府相關的地方如果說是地方政府你看到這幾年來從地方政府財劃法你要把它下放多少說下放5777億 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7817.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7820.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
但是最近國民黨的版本又變成3208億,足足少了55%為什麼還會多出一個3208億的版本跟5777億的版本呢?那不就證明說它當初5777億的版本是一個很大的錯誤嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7838.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7851.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不只打對折勒還打四、五折你不覺得這太誇張嗎很顯然國民黨當初的版本就是草率修法嘛不正自明否則的話為什麼至於還要修成3208億為什麼還要趨近民眾黨的2700億 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7857.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7882.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這都沒有聽到任何的說明只有說他降價、修法這很奇怪嘛另外一個部分呢我必須說這個問題從事權主席不要那麼早站起來嘛你不是要讓大家暢所欲言嗎我好不容易等到十幾位等到十四位就讓其他的同事都先講我好不容易你這樣打我會有壓力啦你請坐請坐你想從事權 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7886.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7903.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟財權本身基本上就有衝突面如果今天地方政府的財政問題只是透過一個垂直分別就可以解決的話那實在太容易了嘛可是問題是這樣子嗎?有這麼簡單嗎?所有在修財法的過程當中大家要健全的是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7909.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7911.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7929.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7942.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
剛剛吳委員就說得很好啊這不是單一的法案的問題牽扯到地方政府財政他還有牽扯到地方制度法還有牽扯到公債法為什麼要特別講公債法 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7944.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7965.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
過去中央政府就有心的想要把公債法的信用卡給地方更多的一個信用空間簡單的講是讓他更多的取債空間更多的取債空間只是讓地方政府的財政更陷入泥沼而已啊這就是公債法需要修的地方地方制度法為什麼要修? |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7966.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7981.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為中央跟地方啊一些選擇劃分不清楚啊過去地方政府常常抱怨就是說為什麼這明明是中央要做的事情為什麼把這個責任下放給地方而前面有一道位所有在地方政府待過的都是這種心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7982.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8011.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這也就是為什麼說夥伴關係沒有建立的原因嘛這也就是為什麼地方制度法需要修的原因嘛剛剛吳委員講說地方制度法修了15次但是我必須修那都是微調的修真正兩個法同步修的實在1999年的時候同步修嚴格來說不論是地制法也好財法法也好都是經過了25年沒有進行一個同步的大規模的修改來建構一個中央跟地方的夥伴關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8012.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8041.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以地方制度法當然重要啊所以公債法當然關鍵啊還有一個地方稅法通則所以說我們到底是修法的目的是把錢給地方而已嗎而破壞了整個體制嗎我必須說啊你破壞了體制你真的對地方好嗎地方的錢拿去用在哪裡更不曉得可是中央沒有辦法執行整體的預算的時候去給地方做一個整體的改變的時候那你怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8042.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8064.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
你怎麼辦?這是破壞整個體制嘛!結果也是癱瘓中央的結果嘛!主席你再坐一下,我再講一分鐘,我用我國文程度來講。我陪你站一下,我們尊重後面的人。所以那個關鍵點在哪裡?關鍵點對地方結果也沒有好。你是破壞了整個政黨的體制、整個政府的體制。你破壞了整個政府的體制。所以說這個修法基本上啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8065.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8091.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
對地方也不好對中央也不好否則的話你不會貿然的提出一個577億版本馬上又降強成3208億版本一下子降了55% 砍了55%下一次你提出來的修法是不是要變成那個民眾黨版本變成2700或2200降價大求售我覺得這個裡頭要思考清楚但是陳村委員你剛剛提到說財務好要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8092.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8110.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
本席啊老走又踢過了財化法修法有它的正當性但怎麼修有它的意義你看我們經過了兩次公聽會你主持一次上次那個那個羅明才委員主持一次但是那都是從財權的角度不是從事權的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8111.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8135.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我必須說下次我真的建立代委員從私權的角度來思考財化法的修改方式目標是建構中央跟地方政府的夥伴關係而不是只是想把錢拿給地方而已你拿錢給地方而已你以後我跟你講講白一點換成你國民黨將來如果有機會執政的話搞不好你還要再修法一次我講白一點除非你要做萬年的地方黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8137.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8153.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這體制不能破壞啊這體制破壞啊會形成大家的共業啊毀了這個體制之後癱瘓了中央之後對家當沒好處中央也沒拿到中央也地方也沒拿到中央也沒有辦法運作希望我的國問程度中文系的主席能夠聽得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8155.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8180.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
謝謝郭國文委員剛剛這已經是第4位委員提到地方支出法要修正請內政部一定要記得趕快提出地方支出法相關的修正還有財政部有關公債法還有地方受法通則也趕快提出相對應的版本不要像財化法一樣沒有提出來其實我一直在聽到郭委員講說破壞體制不是好事我聽了很遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8182.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8209.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
國民黨就是推翻了清朝的帝制破壞了體制才建立了亞洲第一個民主共和國民進黨就是破壞了這個威權的體制才建立了我國的政黨輪替所以破壞體制是國家進步的象徵破壞體制是好事國家要進步民主進黨如果不想進步不想破壞體制我是很遺憾啦因為我一直覺得民主進黨是一個進步的政黨可見你們已經放棄進步的理念了接著我們請羅明才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8210.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8227.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你說破壞體制是壞事啊清朝地制被破壞威權體制破壞國家才進步啊才進入民主共和國才進入政黨輪替啊主席各位委員大家好主席你的發言啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8228.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8247.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
令本人感到深深的佩服其實我們在想的就是民眾第一嘛所以環境、時代一直在改變我們怎麼樣修一個與時俱進的法來符合大家的期待這是最重要的那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8247.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8250.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
財政劃分法在財委會我們有多次的討論那主席他是比較客氣一點的後來的話其實今天本來就應該要主條啦但是廣納民意讓大家多多討論也是可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8265.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8280.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
對主席的做法給予熱烈掌聲鼓勵他很勇敢而且體恤大下的需求我們看到財劃法很多不分黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8281.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8295.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
包括本院委員賴瑞榮16個人不是一個人都有提出當然林思銘、許宇甄還有特別提到的吳立華有17個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8297.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8315.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
也都有提出財化法的這個修正以及賴委員張家俊等等還有蔡義渝、蔡委員等16個人提出一個修正的一個草案那還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8318.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8340.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個林總統這一整本包括陳超明等等表示我們來自地方的確有這樣的一個需求像本席來自新北我們有400多萬的人口但是每一次講到錢的問題中央的思維就是集權、集錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8342.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8352.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以我們必須要來把這個事情喔充分來討論一下究竟對地方的補助是誰說了算如果你把這個帳一摻開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8354.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8380.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那到底誰說了算呢?把所有的權集中在一個人、兩個人的身上這適合嗎?請問中華民國是人民的國家吧?中華民國是應該要以民為主嘛怎麼會變成這個封建的思想全部要集權又集錢呢?所以多次在這邊討論我們就希望這樣有一個公平的對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8381.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8400.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
新北有400萬人那應該要跟台北市一樣什麼地方有問題要拿出來啊所以我們在上一個會期啊已經在財委會也通過財政部必須要勇敢的面對要提出自己的版本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8401.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8410.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我想曾經不怕火燒啊你就把你的規定、你的公平性、你的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8411.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8431.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
不敢說百分之百但是你要找出一個至少百分之八十、九十大家都可以認可的所以因為這是一個平均的一個概念嘛每一個人不論是在窮鄉僻壤的地方或者大都市的地方應該要有他起碼的公平的對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8432.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8453.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以我覺得主席這個做法很令人欽佩發揮了金門人的努力奮戰的精神不惜挑燈夜戰那我們當然也是樂意一起來關心一起來找到一個好的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8454.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8471.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那最重要的就是讓財政部知道你們錢不能全部集中啊然後跟你比較好的你們標準到底在哪裡我們搞不清楚啊每一次開會的時候過去大概主計長啊或者財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8472.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8496.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
大家看到都把他捧得高高的其實這個時代已經不一樣了嘛應該要以民為主讓所有的人民知道他的權利究竟是在哪裡像我們新北長期以來跟其他地區跟高雄其他地區比起來落後非常多在這個錢的補助方面所以我們希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8498.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8526.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
新北有那麼多的人口熬熬待補我們包括很多的捷運包括有很多的教育的補助義教、義消、醫院、醫療等等的補助我們都需要中央大力的支持能把你的公事讓我們知道也讓地方他知道如何來編列而不是每次都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8527.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8550.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
帶著一個關愛的眼神,拜託拜託中央多給一點,這個不是啦,這不好啦所以次長在這邊,部長常常在講說中央跟地方的關係是夥伴的關係既然是夥伴的關係,那你要清楚讓我們知道地方的努力可以得到什麼樣的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8551.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8572.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
讓所有的民眾知道他的權利應該是在哪裡不然的話我看長期這樣下來平者越平、富者越富這個整個失衡的情況讓我們覺得真的必須要面對這個問題25年沒修了再不修什麼時候修那大家有提到說總預算的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8574.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8599.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
其實可以雙軌並行只要拿出誠意有什麼東西不能修的呢只要站在民眾的立場大家好好來思考找到一個最好的方式如果真的不滿意至少可以比現在目前好吧現在大家都充滿了很多的猜忌充滿著不安然後希望我能多一點或者是說大家會覺得為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8602.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8603.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8612.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8632.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
高雄市也好,台南市也好,很多地方大家都希望來面對這個問題。包括我們現場有很多的委員,以後可能也會回去選縣市長。我這樣看過去的好幾個,當然是希望說能爭取的,多爭取一點。下面好幾個也都是有機會啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8637.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8654.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
沒有什麼利益迴避的問題這是把整個制度建立起來長長久久這樣子大家才有一個依循所以希望主席繼續努力繼續加油我們會奉陪 謝謝謝謝羅明才委員接著我們請林德福委員做程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8674.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8688.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
謝謝,謝謝主席。我想今天財政部這個阮次長包括所有的官員還有我們很多委員對財劃法大家都非常的關心。首先我講財劃法有經過這個三任總統、政黨輪替,一共25年都沒有修正。 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8698.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8713.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
財委會要財政部在本會期開始的時候要提出草案來結果到現在都還沒有看到行政院提出的修正案甚至於行政院卓院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8715.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8737.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這個還在院會表示說現行法規的運作與地方配合的很好那請問如果現行法規和地方配合的很好那為什麼代表全國民意過半的國民黨民眾黨甚至於包括民進黨的立法委員都需要他們都提出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8738.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8747.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
就拿有最高性、原則性以及固定性的法律位階最高的憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8748.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8772.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
都能夠應時來質疑應地來質疑來提出修法那我請問為什麼對於有修法必要的財劃法財政部卻好像無能為力一樣難道財劃法的法律位階比憲法的位階還要高嗎其實大家都知道經過了25年 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8775.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8797.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這個中央政府跟地方政府的組織啊的變革就差了非常的多那現行財劃法真的像卓院長所說的運作配合的非常的良好嗎如果真的很好那城鄉差距應該會縮小 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8801.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8809.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個賴總統在10多年前當台南市市長的時候也應該是不會出現南北的一個差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8811.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8833.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
讓他卑微地向行政院來抗議,強烈要求修財劃法。在10多年前,因為賴總統他有向行政院抗議,強烈地要求來修財劃法。更不會讓台灣的東部、西部出現嚴重失衡的發展狀況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8836.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8862.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那我請問財政部各位長官摸摸你們的良心想一想修法難道真的沒有急迫性和必要性嗎?藍市長你跟財政部所有官員應該要好好的去思考最後在25年前精神財化法修法後中央政府淨收入暴增縣市政府卻經常 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8866.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8894.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
經常是財政困擾、困窘向中央來喊話那本席一直認為說財政部把修法的責任歸咎地方分配的比例喬不容因為在這裡其實我們修過幾次那以喬不容修法必須要從長計議甚至於影射立委提案是倉促立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8896.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8922.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
再再來凸顯行政權專斷和傲慢本席是強調修法不應該再拖下去千萬不要讓財化法這個整個修法變成了一個天荒夜談以上我都在時間裡面來講話完畢謝謝謝謝林德福委員接著我們請鄭天才委員做會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8925.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8928.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
主席、各位委員本席也有提出財政收支劃分法的修正今天因為好幾位民眾黨的委員一直提到總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8952.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8975.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個總預算為什麼會因為造成就是因為行政院沒有依法行政對人民而言依法行政是最基本的要求對現在現在對原住民族而言變成是一個最卑微的訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8977.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9004.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我先說禁法補償條例,原住民保育地禁法補償條例的修正當初提6萬的,大家聽好哈大家聽好當初提6萬的總共有32位民進黨的委員提案32位國民黨盧憲一的提案只有19人 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9007.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9028.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
只有19人所以立法院所通過的法例行政院沒有提復議沒有依憲法的職權提復議就表示沒有自愛難行也經過賴清德總統公佈施行這個就是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9038.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9060.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
人民要求政府依法行政是最基本的訴求現在變成原住民族最卑微的訴求依法行政好 我們接下來看我們原住民族禁法補償條例是105年公佈施行、104年立法院三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9068.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9091.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
民國82年本席在台灣省政府服務的時候就定了禁法補償的要點82年喔前幾天柯建民總召在黨團協商的時候他也提到82年就有了當時是多少兩萬塊82年到現在三十幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9098.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9125.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
6萬塊算多嗎?按照物價指數而且是經過民進黨的立委的提案32人竟然行政院可以不依法行政不依法編列好,我們看今年的預算書今年的預算書人民會的單位預算、公務預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9126.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9151.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
編了28億多作為進法補償撥到綜合發展基金綜合發展基金一塊錢都沒有支印跟112年以前不一樣113年也只有公務預算撥到綜合發展基金綜合發展基金也沒有支印一塊錢都沒有而這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9153.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9178.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
公務預算撥到綜合發展基金28億多再扣了一千多萬的作為做其他的費用只剩下27億作為進法補償,所以少了14億綜合發展基金是誰送來的?是行政院送到立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9179.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9187.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那為什麽呢?我們卓榮泰院長一再在立法院喔!立法院的答詢說他只願意4萬塊!綜合發展基金也沒有編啊!如何去從綜合發展基金去支應呢?所以,而且,支應原住民族綜合發展基金是違法的! |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9207.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9222.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
原住民族綜合發展基金的收支管理應用辦法的法源是原住民族基本法第18條。第18條是作為原住民族經濟發展的業務。所以作為貸款、經濟貸款、微型貸款等等。 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9231.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9261.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
而且按照行政院送來的原住民族綜合發展基金的預算書明確規定預算書明確規定本基金系預算法第4條第二項第二款第4目所定預算法第4條第二項第二款第4目所定凡付出仍可收回 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9262.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9290.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
什麼叫凡付出仍可收回呢?比如說貸款,經濟貸款,付出期之後可以收回本金,還有加上利息。禁法補償是付出期是收不回來的。所以用綜合發展基金是違反了原住民族基本法,也違反了預算法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9291.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9292.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
政府怎麼可以帶頭違法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9292.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9295.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
政府怎麼可以帶頭違法呢?帶頭違法多久了呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9295.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9302.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
帶頭違法多久了呢?現在已經被挪用了53億多啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9302.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9310.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
現在已經被挪用了53億多啊!被違法挪用原住民族諸葛發展基金作為禁法補償已經53億多了 所以跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9319.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9347.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
馬英九執政的最後一年所編的一百零五年度的預算一百零五年度的結算原住民族綜合發展基金一百零五年度的結算綜合發展基金淨值一百一十七億七千零八十一萬一千元一百一十七億七千零八十一萬一千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9349.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9373.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
當時的禁止是這樣一百一十二年度的結算累積短處一百一十二年度的結算累積短處六十三億啊累積短處六十三億財源不足六十三億啊好好看預算書啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9375.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9400.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
114年度行政院送來的一級數一級數多少?累積短處67億多所以高精素美委員跟本席提出原住民族基本法第18條要補回來啊這是轉型正義啊違法挪用的要補回來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9401.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9414.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這是轉型爭議,我的時間還沒到違法挪用的要轉型爭議這是原住民族最卑微的所以這是要返還的這是返還,我們沒有增加我們不是增加原住民族發展基金我們是要你們返回來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9426.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9452.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
在這邊特別特別的我本來不想發言啦因為今天一直談總預算所以我不得不把我是30年的公務員預算書清清楚楚從無到有盡罰補償從無到有所有的法律都是經過我的手上的在這邊特別拜託大家以上好謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9455.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9458.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
可以簽名,等一下有立法院時間接著我們請許曉欣委員做會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9476.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9489.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那個吳委員不好意思吳立法委員、高金委員請觀眾許曉欣委員大家有意見可以來簽名我會讓大家暢所欲言你們可以上來發言請簽名吳立法委員跟高金素梅委員都有發言的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9508.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9535.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好。讓他們講2分鐘。小新請等一下。許小問題。好。你安靜。你安靜。好。我知道大家都很認真爭取原住民的預算吼。接著我們請曲小新委員發言。胡委員你剛剛已經發言過了。等一下請坐。好。你可以找內政委員發言。尊重我們一下好不好。好。也可以回。好了啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9538.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9542.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你等下可以上來講喔,委員沒有你發言的時間喔。接下來請許曉欣委員做會議新聞。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9567.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9572.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
現在這個預算還在協商當中我們不管是上個禮拜、這個禮拜、下個禮拜都還在進行協商那協商結束之後自然就會進入到審查的階段那這有什麼好視為不審或是擋或是刪除的呢要求行政院對於三讀通過的法案負責對農民、原住民、醫護人員多加照顧這不就是我們本來立法委員應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9595.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9605.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
要做的監督職責嗎再來我覺得很奇怪啊立法委員是怎麼回事啊我們只能一次做一件事情嗎我們是這麼沒有能力的一群人嗎我們沒有預算在審查的時候我們就不能修法那修法的時候就不能審預算不是啊 這兩個事情是可以並進的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9616.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9623.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
有一大群人他們正在為了整個預算正在協商,與此同時我們審查財政收支劃分收支法怎麼了嗎?沒有什麼啊!預算歸預算、法案歸法案兩者併進到底有什麼不行?還是說現在有些委員覺得整個預算就是沒有辦法進來了,今年就是不會省了? |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9635.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9652.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
對自己這麼沒有信心嗎?我倒是對民眾黨很有信心啊我覺得總預算最後是一定會審的我們也很期待接下來的審查只不過現在還在協商階段而已就有必要這麼急嗎?反而是反案很急啊為什麼?因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9653.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9661.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
法案的部分討論這麼多年了財化法既然已經討論這麼多年那讓它繼續討論下去是延續過去討論的基礎那能不討論嗎既然過去把它視為一個這麼重要的議題那現在難道就不重要了嗎所以我覺得預算總預算歸總預算那裡正在協商不要去打擾人家但是不等同於我們現在的財政收支劃分法不能去做審查這是兩件不同的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9681.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9686.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
再來我要特別講因為為什麼要審查這個財政收支劃分法因為只依靠補助會有更不公平的問題它沒有辦法形成一個制度比方說114年的預算中央預支的部分如果我們把六都來比較統籌補助款、統籌分配款加上補助款高雄市拿到多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9704.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9710.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
1229億台北市是多少呢?861億兩者相差了370億如果我們只看補助的收入的部分不看統籌分配款的話台北市只拿到了163億高雄拿到了708億 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9725.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9741.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
同樣都是直轄市卻差這麼多所以要補助來替代統籌分配款變成是中央政府喜歡給誰多少錢就給多少錢這對各縣市來說都是不公平的為什麼我們不把它法制化、制度化讓這個法律能夠公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9743.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9770.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
公平的按照法律規則去分配給不同的縣市而不是只依賴於每年好像我們都要把行政院當皇帝看然後呢各縣市政府要像把他當皇帝一樣希望他們來施捨我們一點預算變成呢今天我中央說喜歡你這個縣市我就多給你一點錢多補助你一點不喜歡你那些縣市呢我就少給你一點錢我覺得這是不對的所以應該要回到財政收支劃分法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9771.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9792.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
讓法律取代這些補助讓它回到正軌我覺得這對於各縣市的鼓勵財政努力還有共享招商成果才是最好最有辦法最符合法規的方式所以在此再一次跟大家建議是財政收支劃分法要繼續快速努力的審議召集不同各 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9793.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9810.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
現世的意見不同的版本大家一起坐下來好好談這個跟總預算沒有太大的關係持續的討論才能有更好的財政收支劃分法謝謝謝謝我們許小新委員的會議詢問了好現在主席宣布喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9810.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9826.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們要先休息喔那休息10分鐘讓官員也休息一下然後休息回來以後我們進行廣泛討論的時候剛有登記了然後就會讓官員上來跟大家一起討論好我們現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10455.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10483.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們現在繼續開會我們現在進行廣泛討論如剛剛所說的這個發言的本會委員每一位8加2分鐘啦非本會委員就是列席委員就是5分鐘然後這個廣泛討論的時候我們可以請這個我們部會首長來回答剛程序已經我剛綜合剛的程序發言會請問應該都沒有什麼疑問這個程序OK好那我們接著請登記第一號的這個林德鋭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10490.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10496.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
謝謝主席是不是我們請卵次長請財政部卵次長次長你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10507.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10523.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我請教因為莊部長當然去參加APEC由你來代理那財務法也經過三任的總統那也經過各政黨的輪替那25年來都沒有修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10524.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10544.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
財委會其實也有要財政部在本會期開始的時候事前就要提出來他的草案結果到現在看不到行政院提出他修正的版本甚至於這個卓院長還在院會表示說現行法規的運作跟地方配合的很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10546.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10560.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那我要請教這個阮次長如果現行法規和地方配合得很好為什麼我們今天有很多委員不管藍綠都有提出這個版本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10565.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10587.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這個哪有最高性、原則性、固定性的這些法律位階最高的憲法都能夠因時制宜、因地制宜來提出修法那我請問為什麼對於有必要修法的財劃法財政部好像若無其事啊這個也無能為力一樣到底那個次長這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10589.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10612.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
莊部長的意思還是卓院長的意思還是賴總統的意思你認為有沒有必要在我們今天整個大體討論你來說清楚講明白我跟委員報告我們財政部的立場很清楚我們希望能夠建立一個就是長治久安的一個財化法的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10613.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10640.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
就是因為要建立長治久安所以說需要修啊所以我們希望能夠兼顧地方的需求也能夠兼顧中央的財政的潤性所以我們希望能夠達到一個雙贏那事實上財劃法的確在過去也提過5次的修正案在大院審查的時候一直都沒有獲得共識這大家都很清楚那即使是這樣我們財政部也是積極在努力那我們近期也召開兩次的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10641.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10664.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
兩次會議呢,那就相關的地方政府提出了這相關的一些指標80個指標呢,我們就不斷的去協調溝通那現在呢,那些指標已經慢慢在縮減縮減,現在只剩下權重還有比如像這個像污染防治啦,或者再生能源,或者是說稅出那部分要不要納入考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10665.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10678.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這一部分還要再研議所以我們一直都希望能夠把那個共識大家能夠建立起來你認為那個群眾那個比值以目前來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10680.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10701.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
大致上是多少最適當?權重是每一個指標都有他的權重。比如說像台北市,台北市因為目前的分配是包括盈利事業所得額,所以他盈利事業占比達到34%,所以當然他希望盈利事業所得額的權重高一點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10702.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10729.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
但是對農業縣市來講因爲他盈利世界所得稅相對比較低所以他希望權重就低一點所以這一部分還要再溝通希望能夠找到一個平衡點藍市長其實財委會過去其實我參加過就是我們財務法裡面修法那麼多次的會議主要那時候很多縣市的財政局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10730.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10755.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
他們那時候都站在自己地方的本位立場來看但是其實經過溝通協調其實大致上很多縣市的這些局長他們經過這些次的商討研究其實也差不多大家幾乎都有共識那我認為說站在中央的立場你不要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10757.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10776.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
等於是有權又有錢應該要分配給各縣市讓他自己去發展這樣整個尤其地方跟都會區裡面比較偏鄉跟都會區裡面才會均衡的發展那個次長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10776.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10805.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
其實我跟委員報告現在就是說中央跟地方的財源的分配就實質上可以用的財源我們用114年度的預算來看大概中央佔比大概62%那地方大概38%但是相對來講我們的支出是達到這個是64比36換句話說就在這種情況之下其實地方的情況是比中央要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10806.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10832.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以我們過去我們就是在這個無論是補助款也好、統籌分配稅款也好、或計劃型補助款也好,我們都不斷的增加嘛。所以在114年我們已經增加到1兆151億。所以這是一個很大的數字。其實阮次長這幾年我們都知道稅收是超徵。 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10833.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10834.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10855.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10875.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這個空、這個缺是補不滿的啦。你再怎麼補都補不滿,因為你會合以後那個幾乎你用的綠電、光電、所有這些幾乎年年都有虧損,而且虧損年年都要補它,沒有補它馬上就漲價。 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10877.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10898.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以說錯誤的政策真的比貪污一百倍可怕其實大家都知道經過25年來中央政府跟地方政府的組織的變革就差了很多現行財劃法真的像卓院長所說的還是配合的很良好嗎?如果真的那成相的差距為什麼不會縮小? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10900.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10924.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
其實賴總統在10多年前當台南市長的時候也應該是不會出現在南北的差距讓他卑微地向行政院來抗議那強烈地要求修財劃法更不會讓台灣的東部跟西部出現嚴重私人的這個發展的這種狀況那個市長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10924.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10951.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
跟委員報告就是說剛才委員提到就是說我們的時間數一直都超過預算數但是我跟委員報告就是那是總預算如果你把特別預算考慮進去的話從101年到114年這個十幾年當中我們只有3年有一點點剩餘其他全部都是次之那即使在這種情況之下中央也盡量來支援地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10952.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10958.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以我們看到地方這幾年從101年來看100年到114年同一個期間來看的話地方的財政從101年的那時候的次數是580幾億但是到114年就他剩餘達到648億 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10972.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10993.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
所以現在目前來講地方的財政其實是我認為是以我長期在做財政工作地方目前整體財政是比中央還要更穩健所以現在要處理的不是不足的問題現在要處理的是什麼呢是這個分配的問題分配喔分配的問題是水平的問題所以說齁那個次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10994.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11008.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
在25年前精神財化法修法後中央政府競收入暴增那縣市政府卻經常因為這個財政的困窘向中央喊話本期是認為說財政部修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11010.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11027.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
責任歸咎地方分配比例、喬布隆、修法必須要從長期、甚至於引設立委提案、自倉促的修法等等。其實我認為這個應該大家要放下來就是好好的研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11028.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11044.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
然後如何做是最適當然後這樣去修不要說把好像修財化法變成就是好像未來修了以後會變成這個好像這個中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11046.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11068.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
有草案法以後就造成修了以後就造成中央這個以後財政的這個困擾等等我認為應該好好的探討我完全贊同委的意見就基本上就是說中央跟地方其實是夥伴關係對啊是夥伴要合作啊所以我是說大家就是各退一步大家找一個合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11069.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11082.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
一個就是解決的方案一個折衷點然後認為說合理大家能夠接受就比較容易達到最後的共識我是不希望說當然因為其實財政紀律齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11084.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11111.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
認為應該要好好的把它做好那中央地方是夥伴關係啊不是說今天齁這個大家為了爭這個然後搞出很多其他政治的問題我認為那個大可不必我們針對問題然後探討如何去做如何解決是大家能夠接受我剛剛陳如我說中央地方是夥伴關係我們需要把事情做好讓老百姓有感受這是最重要好不好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11114.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11117.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
謝謝林德福委員謝謝接著我們請蔡易維委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11127.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11144.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
好 謝謝主席那我先沒有要請我們部會啦因為我想再跟主席我們是不是確認一下就是說主席這講的暢所欲言這四個字那代表的意義是不是我們等一下今天廣泛討論嘛那我們廣泛討論我認為說現在財化法有一個很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11149.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11167.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
就是說我們在談水平分配的時候事實上剛剛已經有多位立委包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法那甚至還有所謂的一些屬於稅法的一個部分所以它牽涉的層面是很多我包括說 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11168.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11174.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11184.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11206.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11207.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11230.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11231.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11259.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
國土計畫的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11260.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11276.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科與行政機關下有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11277.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11297.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11298.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11305.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個你這樣說財政收支劃分法為什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問對農業部嘛所以這個我認為這是一個大學問我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11326.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11333.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這個在經省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在經省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作這一些屬於業務範圍的也都把它拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給它更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這一些事權也應該要下放 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11352.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11370.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼老農津貼過去的戰刑條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老農津貼再加上這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11372.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11392.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11393.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11412.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
是不是老農今天暫停條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11413.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11421.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我覺得主席看之類的不行,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛討論會問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊。所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11436.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11457.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會兒會廣泛討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11458.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11466.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎?不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言我現在放棄我的發言,我就...我剛才給他放棄了我...我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還在...如果其他...有意見喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11482.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11486.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
財政部各部會官要注意喔,如果下午有什麼會議的話,晚上有什麼會議的話,記得要排開喔,要準備晚餐喔,來沒問題喔,來,然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11510.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11519.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題好沒問題齁所以我們就是等一下往還是要會會會會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點齁沒關係好OKOK阿我們就這樣說好了好好謝謝阿你可以了齁好謝謝可以請我讀完程序發言就讓我掛他們沒有那是程序發言嘛我剛剛有一點被狂的感覺沒問題沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11530.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11546.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
沒問題喔 不會 不會 不會 不會各位給我挑燈夜戰的心理準備來然後接著這個剛剛蔡委員所提到的環境部喔下回我們一定要 有邀請今天有來你下次發言也可以請他們上來詢問還有面證部也有來可以詢問啦下次我們一定要邀請農業部過來齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11549.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11573.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
財政部要記得今天開名單你們沒有邀請農業部還有內政部的官員至少是次長、部長其他部位有來的部會聽到相關的委員都有提出包括內政部來的官員未接的問題當然環境部還有農業部財政部要記得我們下次邀請一定要發一定要邀請這個單位還有哪個部會呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11575.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11591.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好、沒關係、好、OK、好那地方制度法、內政部財政部的公佔法跟地方制度法都要趕快提出來喔不要這個身為執政的這個效率這麼差我們要牽頭往前行喔接著我們請登記3號李坤澄委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11601.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11606.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11621.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11637.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財化法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11638.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11663.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有三針海味明天就不知道可以吃飽沒有你就說我們之後一定會有三針海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11664.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11692.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那些都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財務法是相關的不是只有修我們財務法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11694.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11695.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
注釋,有沒有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11698.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11698.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們已經聽過很多意見,專家學的意見我們聽很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11724.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11725 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
市長、主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11743.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11761.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的這個稅率會大幅減少大概4080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11762.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11789.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那如果說這個政委黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健寶還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11791.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11810.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
現在是由中央來負擔對好那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修修到這個4000多月都讓這個中央這個都讓地方政府拿去用了那未來呢屬於中央的部分那剛我提到說這個這個健保的部分啊有關這個老農津貼的部分未來勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11811.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11837.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加釋出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11838.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11852.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權統一嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮啦我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒?還是中央出嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11859.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11867.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
中央的財政韌性就受到影響了你被挖走了4千億那你還要再撥補這麼多進去那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點受到影響之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11878.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11905.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11906.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11921.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11923.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11938.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11939.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11964.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市為補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11966.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11987.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個設宅的專案計劃中央有補助少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11991.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12014.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北啦、台北啦、台中啦、高雄啊要蓋這一些這個軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出? |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12016.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12045.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計劃型補助因為114年的計劃型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12047.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12059.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12060.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12079.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9000億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3000多億剩下3000多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12081.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12099.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
剩下3000多億那我們平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12100.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12120.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
有什麼戰爭、有什麼樣的國際情勢大了轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又是要來一個像COVID-19這一種從中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12122.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12130.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12133.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12158.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12159.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12175.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以不管中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12175.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12194.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
因為我們對岸有一個中國阿隨時要武力要恐惡台灣阿軍機軍艦要來擾台阿我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12197.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12222.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法,我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分大家再來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12223.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12245.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12248.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12275.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員喔那你不要偷罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財劃法嘛他還不是一樣執政的嘛我可以發表我保持這是我的看法不等於是你的看法我沒有扭曲你的話主席當然可以做評論不要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12278.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12301.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
主席意識中立是意識程序的中立不是表示我不能說話好嗎?你們要去了解什麼叫意識中立好我沒有打分數接著請賴世保委員吼賴世保委員我可以問我的意見嘛意識中立不表示不能說話大家沒有當過主席回去小學上課 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12304.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12317.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
議事中、律師中、程序每個人都有程序可以走還有COVID-19是舉債發行的大家要了解一下不要說錯謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的阮次長以及主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12334.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12336.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
委員好在講之前,我要聲援一下主席啊這個執政委員不能夠對主席這樣子霸凌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12350.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12364.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這個 這個主席喔對你們有夠好的啦你們一直講話一直講話一直講話不要這樣子啦不要這樣子啦 你去看一看其他的你們時間暫停了 整個程序用底時間暫停時間暫停 時間暫停我都讓大家暢所欲言啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12370.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12394.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
沒有給一些正確的資訊啦齁我怕這位大眾得到錯誤的資訊我後面那間是舉債的齁六、六件兜品騎死贏人啦齁、好了、好了、好了好好尊重一下賴委員的發言每個人要發言可以再繼續登記齁我是有感而發我到其他委員會民進黨的委員當招委的時候時間一到不給你多講10、10秒鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12397.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12407.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
10秒不給多講很清楚的大消息讓我們成立政黨一直講剛才財議一直講、一直講、一直講、給他一直講說沒關係這樣的主席還欺負他莫名其妙大家請坐下 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12419.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12423.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
今天沒有要質詢!好!大家尊重發言的委員齁!我會讓你們講齁!好!繼續問嗎?繼續問!來!繼續問齁!來!來!來! |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12434.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12462.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
財政委員會讓有第二輪、第三輪,你坐下來今天沒有要主條,不要那麼緊張啦,不可以表現啦來,處長,你們現在啊,等一等,等一等,我再講話,你等一等要講話,你等一等來,兩位長官啦,你們現在就跟著左輪拍,揮身立下好,這個東西,現在的公司不夠賺,不用去修我們剛剛過去的十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12464.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12480.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
修了五次啦!民眾黨團委員提了幾個版本就是現在盡力要省的民眾黨團委員也提版本N個、N個加一、N個加二、N個加三大家都認為要修啊!為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12480.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12488.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
嘴弄派說:「啊!現在有夠讚!不要修了!」因為賴清德想要到皇帝 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12490.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12502.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
把地方政府都當作乞丐跟他奔進來,我們就看第一章我們就先看自己分的結果是什麼來,先看第二章分的結果是什麼下一張來,分的結果是什麼分的結果就是綠、大、藍、小、小、橫、大第一名我們統總會議會管家 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12520.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12536.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
補助款喔!一般補助跟專案補助喔!台內是第一名的!占他的支出68%!第二名高雄市占63%!欸比較略多喔!第三名!新北市52%! |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12541.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12569.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
第四名臺中市52%過來第一名桃園市最後一名臺北市啊!大家記得看什麼騙錢賠稅款這個資料都你們的 沒金錢就是你們不要分配怎麼分配財政部大小眼、主席總組大小眼給台人第一名、給高雄第一名臺北市最後一名就是你們分的結果就是你們分的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12571.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12586.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
就是你們分的結果!這樣結果老百姓能夠接受嗎?其他的六都啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12589.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12614.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
結果 排位分得更多來 回到第一張分的結果就是高雄市拿1,229億台北市拿861億差370億啊你們分的結果就這樣子啊你們分的分 打個露脊喔 打個露脊喔結果呢結果呢就是道地的大蝦園毒貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12617.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12630.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
路徑黨執政的縣市、六都裡面的兩都、台南市、高雄市、台北市採的地地的,這個就是你們自己分的結果。來!市長能夠講解嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12633.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12658.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
主席怎麼賣得下你啊?委員長我講一下啊!這個結果是你們分的啊!你看哪一站、哪一站你們分的結果啊!分給我講一下給我聽啊!這個部分是包括一般性的補助、包括計劃型的補助統籌、加一般、加庄案全部加起來沒錯!是!那統籌的部分就是按比率嘛!那計劃型...對!我的問題是加起來!來回到剛剛那一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12660.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12667.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我這裡的資料是台北市是1043.3億高雄市是1066.5億現在講的是114你講113啊我們看再下一張這是114的啦來來來我們來看113多少你說多少台北市多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12691.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12704.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
一百一十三的部份...八百四十一個就給你們資料啊!此外來言,主計總署把這都列資料了,拜託!這是法定決算的咧! |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12707.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12722.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
對!你看看啊!台北市最少一名!台北市最少一名!每年都最少一名!好!其餘台北市!莫順於此啊!每年都最少一名!你看看!從110年!都是你們執政喔!委員長執政喔!121年、112年、113年!台北市都第6名了!你又讀裡面第6名! |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12728.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12734.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
然後呢,台南市都是第一名啊這就是你們分的結果啊你們分的結果組織總數結果就是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12737.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12737.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這是你公佈的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12766.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12790.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
你公佈16號你公佈之後來再回頭上一張我再跟你講你這幾年蔡英文民進黨執政以後這個比例第一名就是台南市第二名就是高雄市都沒變了都沒變這個這個排名都沒有變 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12791.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12821.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
怎麼會讓人家服氣呢?你們自己分就按顏色來分!因為你們執政你們分得多一點!阿你娘娘!阿不是你!你執政你生他個兒!阿把他貼到手!就是這樣!怎麼分?就這樣分啊!再下一張!這個很清楚看得到嘛!你們分的結果就是用政治力來分啊!這個老實講! |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12823.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12832.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我很不喜歡把財要挖遍政治性的法案他是到底的極力兇殺在講錢講話你不要跟我講這一個故事我覺得你為什麼出來幾年來從111年到現在臺北市的最後一名就問我回答這個問題啊問你這個你不要給我講其他的最後一名啊!不管最後一名是什麼六都、六都最後一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12852.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12862.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
六度最後一名六度最後一名啦我們比較六度不要講其他限制啦你不要講金額我講比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12865.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12880.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
就是你給他的錢占他支出的比例台北市114人比高雄市少了370億這個數字是你們公佈的數字啊主計中處主計中處因為它是有包括統籌分配對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對! |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12893.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12908.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
統統備稅款加一般補助加專案補助三個加起來不管用多少錢佔他的支出的比例這個很重要我們看待的台北市你看114人36%而已111人37%112人47%113年43%114年 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12922.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12925.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
42%就是你補充的錢佔他的支出你42% |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12929.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12959.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
就是政壇民宿的優良就和我們一起...委員他本身就會分,因為計劃型補助...主計長,來來來,我問一下次長,次長,那個次長,你回答一下為什麼要分?為什麼大小言?因為計劃型的我們這邊是沒有資料,但是如果是一般補助款,還有就是統合分配稅款目前分配最多的還是台北市,它就是114年如果預算是849億,它是六都裡面是最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12960.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12977.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
你不要講金的,我講比例啊,聽不懂你金因為它的Mass大啊它的支出大啊,台北市的支出大啊對不對,它的支出2000多億,新北市支出也大當然你給它全部加起來就多,但是我說比例比例比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12979.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12987.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
整個組計長都假裝不懂,其實你都很清楚啊所以你什麼公式?你什麼公式?沒有什麼公式?沒有什麼公式?有嗎?有嗎?請問有公式嗎?那個不是公式啦,那只是原則啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12998.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13003.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
土地占20%、人口占20%、整個營業稅占50%、其他的財政支出占50%、整個教科書呢不要講這個啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13015.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13032.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
沒有,但是我就要問你結果那個是原則而已啊,結果結果從110年到現在,台北市你們的補助包括同種人費稅款,包括一般補助,包括計畫補助,全部加起來,台北市都稅務移民。 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13034.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13049.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
台南市就是第一名,高雄市就是第二名。這些分架就是很清楚你們自己分的結果就是大蕭園了。對不對?喔,這樣,台南、高雄就是你們的兒子,其他都是小孩小孩的兒子,就變成這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13051.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13079.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
都這樣欺負非執政黨執政的一般計劃型補助它是按這個都沒有回到問題啊我問你為什麼這樣結果結果是這樣這是你的數字啊主計中處的數字我就問你為什麼這樣你不要跟我講計劃講些五十三個都沒有回到問題啊它根據第一個根據每個縣市的一個財政狀況你們不能承諾明天都有台北市不會最後一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13080.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13101.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
可以承諾嗎?不是,這是整個按照原則還包括它計劃型,因為在那裡的核地的...所以!草案要分!要重新修嘛!你們權力太大了!你們再把錢都坐在手上!其他的縣市要錢!包括六都都跟你們像乞丐一樣跟你們要!這個不是民主常態啦!我要講!卓榮泰你錯了啦!你們就跟著錯了!謝謝! |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13112.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13131.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
謝謝賴委員各位同仁現在已經12點了我們要不要讓休息讓那個官員還有跟大家吃個飯還是沒關係好那那個你們還是要一邊吃一邊講也是可以都可以我尊重大家意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13133.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13159.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
就是要到郭國國委員大家有沒有意見到郭國國委員以後我們讓那個讓官員休息一下吃飯下一個是你還沒是你下一位是陳培你別急下一位不是你們要換也可以好那就讓郭委員講話我們就休息讓大家吃飯好不好好你們兩位交換大家送單子郭委員下午大家休息的話兩點半來好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13161.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13168.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好 謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13184.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13206.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13207.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13233.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下可是應該是新北啦自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果現在南部沒有錢多一點錢也是剛好一點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13235.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13261.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?那主席長你再看一次自由財源是第一、最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差!所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!或我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色,你是看自由財源對不對?市長! |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13262.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13277.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
主席長是不是?你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13277.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13293.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
你要自我辯護啊明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13300.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13312.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13313.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13342.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13343.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13351.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
案你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13352.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13378.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13381.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13400.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教于您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修? |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13401.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13428.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這是一條權責的問題事權跟財權是不是要定?事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修? |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13430.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13458.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13459.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13487.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13490.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13495.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式這是好的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13514.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13526.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
不是來自於自己你如果說朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13527.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13544.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13545.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13556.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嗎當然無存嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13563.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13586.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13588.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13614.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛才講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13615.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13642.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13643.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13657.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
對不對?我們應該現在適時地講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地支法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關台灣要修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能? |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13660.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13682.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出來我必須說主席長,你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢,如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯,你認為勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13684.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13711.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嗎?是!不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13713.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13718.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13720.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13747.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊!也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連震災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13749.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13750.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
你會安心嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13750.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13775.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13777.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13802.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13804.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13818.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家治理得很好那就如剛所說我們就休息讓大家吃飯2點半繼續謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13831.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13837.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
21578.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
21588.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
好,我們下午的會議兩點半繼續開始喔我們繼續開始做廣泛的討論喔那個,鍾佳斌委員也要發言齁,這邊簽名齁接著我們請張雅琳委員齁謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
21608.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
21614.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
謝謝主席喔那我想我想邀請我們的財政部次長我們請輪次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
21622.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
21647.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
謝謝次長那我想因為其實今天早上已經有非常多的委員包括我自己我們都在強調一件事情總預算很重要這個事情排序應該是最重要的一件事情而不是現在來說這個財劃法那也有非常多的委員其實我在這個早上聽大家的發言的時候也學習了非常多那其實大家一直在強調一件事情財政紀律因為各縣市的差異非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
21648.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
21671.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
過去也非常多的這個剛剛也有很多的委員都有提到就是在拿這個中央的預算去做綁裝或是說原本這是要給教師的就後來就是去聘請正式老師就後來全部都綁了去做別的使用然後最後變成就是只能用代理老師來處理那我自己想要特別針對我自己過去比較關注的這個教育的這個領域就是說目前呢按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
21672.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
21694.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個中央這個按照國民黨的版本現在中央只剩下3689億元那這個經費如果扣除軍備預算11年是2945億元之後所剩無幾嘛那過去呢其實在中教育部呢在2022年到2025年其實有推動一個叫做深深用平板的專案那4年總共投入了200億來讓各縣市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
21698.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
21699.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
採購相關的資訊設備,像是平板電腦、教學軟體等等來進行數位的轉型。 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
21704.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
21728.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
同時也在2027年7月之後推出全國中小學班班有冷氣的政策並且投入了357億的中央補助款首先不論在都市或鄉村都有冷氣的學習環境所以我想請教次長就是說如果照國民黨的版本那今天這些肺炎勢必就會回到縣市政府要自行的來去籌劃跟規劃可能就不一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
21729.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
21755.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
全國能夠一起來開辦這樣我們剛剛講的深深有平板或是半半有冷氣的政策所以我想請教一下這樣是不是會造成以你們的專業來看這樣是不是就會造成所謂的一個城鄉差距的問題呢?就剛才委員指教了就是關於這個稅數的問題待會再麻煩請這個主席總書這時候說明那我另外就是跟委員做一個簡單的一個說明就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
21756.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
21771.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
如果根據目前的國民黨版的話那釋出的金額是4080億元那如果照這樣分配如果假定水平分配沒有變動的話就有大概8個 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
21773.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
21787.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
8個地方政府他的分配的金額會超過他稅出的百分之百換句話說呢就是等於是說他拿到的錢比他所需要的更多所以就會造成這可能會財政紀律的一些疑慮的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
21788.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
21807.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
對,但我想問一下,因為其實就是變成說他拿中央的錢可是他沒有確實的去,若以現在的話我們是可以去要求嘛但是如果他現在呢,他就自己拿去了可是我們事權的討論沒有確認清楚的時候當他挪用的時候其實我們是不是也沒有辦法的來去怎麼樣子去要求他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
21807.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
21831.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
基本上就是一定要跟錢跟權一定要並來討論嘛那我想問一下因為這件事情事關重大中央跟地方就像很多委員都有說是個夥伴關係所以我想確認一下因為剛剛講到事權的討論非常重要那我們現在跟各個縣市已經開始進行討論了嗎?當錢拿回去給他了之後有多少縣市他們是有一致性的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
21832.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
21849.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這一部分還沒有開始進行討論,還沒有進行溝通。我們現在進行溝通的最主要是針對分配的指標那一部分來做討論。那一部分我們也很努力去做。本來各縣市提供的指標大概有80個。 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
21851.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
21877.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
80個我們經過兩次的開會討論再加上私底下的溝通那目前大概已經慢慢的收斂慢慢的聚焦那現在只剩下幾個部分一個是權重的問題權重的問題還要再討論另外就是比如說像有些再生能源或者是防止污染或者是說其他的比如說像這個稅出的那部分要不要納進來的問題這部分還要再溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
21881.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
21902.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我們目前做的是這一塊至於跟地方政府有關這個事權分配這一塊我們目前是還沒有開始進行好,那我想問一下根據市長您的專業判斷就是說如果我們要進行這些溝通大概你覺得預估還需要多久的時間呢時間我覺得很難預料最主要就是說要有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
21903.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
21926.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
如果大家都沒有共識的話你溝通再久也沒有辦法這也是為什麼我們財化法過去25年來那5次送到大院來為什麼沒辦法有共識的原因在這裡因為大家都從自己角度出發那我們現在就是說假定就是說國民黨版的話要釋出4千多億因為這個對中央的影響會非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
21929.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
21957.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
對。非常大。所以一定要有這個就是假定要有扣回來的這個機制嘛。對。扣回來機制。扣回來機制的話就是代表健保啦或者是這個像榮寶啦這些。好。了解。因為我現在聽起來就是說我們好像要協調跟地方要做很多的溝通啊。是。這個要溝通。其實還差距非常非常大啦。謝謝。那我想啊就是說如果我們現在差距在非常大的狀況之下要來進行貿然做這些修法的討論我想這的確是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
21959.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
21971.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
還需要審慎思考的地方,謝謝那接下來主席,那希望稍後主席也不要對我的發言做任何的評論,謝謝主席好,謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員,我不會對你做評論財政部要趕快緊急共識,動作要加快 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
21975.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
21985.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我是要求財政部要尊重立法院,也要趕快的來前進,帶領國要前進。盡量啦盡量,但是要看地方政府的態度了,我們這邊要啟動很簡單啦。反是欲則利不欲則廢,加油。接著我們請林柱英委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
22002.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22012.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
謝謝主席喔 辛苦了從早上到下午有請我們阮次跟我們主計長阮次長喔 主計長去草野協商喔 副主計長喔副主計長 好來 沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22021.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22046.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
館長,我想過去4年不是在這個質詢台上第一次跟您詢問了為什麼今天到現在我們還會以廣泛討論為主而且我一定要來發言就是因為這一次財劃法一共有多少個版本22個版本22個版本對不對那麼目前這些版本之間的差異主要有哪幾大項 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22048.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22070.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
差異其實都蠻多的但是基本上大部分的版本都只處理垂直分配的問題沒有處理水平分配的問題也沒有處理事權分配的問題其實為什麼本席會問這個就是因為垂直分配重要因為地方都說我們不要中央N點 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22072.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22096.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
要有自己的自主權這個我同意但是呢你垂直分配之外的水平分配其實也非常的重要更不要說我們知道這個所謂錢是隨著事權做轉移如果沒有溝通好的話我相信各個地方政府的首長是要直接面對選民的檢驗了最怕是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22096.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22121.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
拿錢不辦事或是拿了錢辦不好事那我覺得我們身為中央的民意代表更承受不起因為我們現在修的法規就像我們過去4年我在財委會的時候當時我們講到的囤房稅的問題當時是怎麼樣中央修法然後要來決定地方囤房稅的稅率我想你應該還記得當時我們財委會不分藍綠 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22126.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
22154.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
白大家的專業在那裡就是沒有任何顏色的問題這是專業的問題你中央修了一個法規要地方吞要地方用你就要跟地方來做溝通那麼我就請問了現在地方上面的溝通剛剛您講到的垂直分配的數額水平分配的項目以及事權上面的質詢這三點做好溝通了嗎溝通了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
22156.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
22173.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
有沒有一個一個去溝通因為我要強調的是一個一個喔因為每一個縣市的狀況從人口、從稅收、從整個產業結構那不一樣的喔那請問你們溝通了哪些縣市做了哪些溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
22174.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
22184.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我跟委員報告,就是說我目前溝通的,剛才我也報告過,就是只針對分配的指標來進行溝通這個指標基本上是針對水平的分配的溝通因為現在的指標就是會有些縣市會比較吃虧 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
22200.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
22221.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
所以我們希望就是說能夠大家有共識能夠把這個水平的指標弄得更公平一點那這個東西這一部分我們現在處理的可以講說是水平的這一部分水平的部分溝通的是每個縣市都溝通嗎?大家都可以接受嗎?所有縣市都溝通過但是現在剛才有報告過就是大概現在只有還有一個兩個問題一個就是權重的問題權重的問題另外一個就是還有三個指標還沒有大家還沒有共識好 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
22230.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
22258.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這個染刺講到重點了講到指標沒有人想要得罪人更沒有人希望指標是落後的如果根據現行的版本當中這個指標大家都挑自己有利的我就舉個例子從北的基隆到南的屏東如果大家可以挑指標誰會挑那個對自己不利的指標那如果每一個人都挑最有利的指標每一個人都特優每一個人都第一名那回歸到最後啊不是又一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
22260.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
22282.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
所有的縣市,大家把這一塊餅拿來又來處理,那這個指標有意義嗎?對,所以這個是民眾黨的,他的問題就在這裡,就是他都是用最有利標那最有利標的結果就是每一個縣市都提出最有利的這個指標出來,到最後每一個都這樣提,最後的結果是什麼?就平均分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
22283.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
22309.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
本席很希望是就事論事但是剛剛我舉出來的這幾個例子我就會認為財政部又或者是主計單位因為主計單位未來是要做那個出來衡量指標或者是做分配的這個所謂的檢視者的過程當中這些指標中央訂定法令立法委員訂定法令之後地方如果至愛難行這是完全 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
22310.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
22331.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
不要說一個法定在那裡結果無法好好實施又或者是指標偏頗又或者是指標形同虛設那我就會認為這必須要好好的來從長計議所以我要求本席具體的要求是希望財政部能夠回去把你們現在跟各個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
22332.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
22346.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
從垂直分配、水平分配的紙標再到我們講的事權轉移尤其是前垂事權轉移的時候他們有沒有能力做到包括我還沒有提到地方是無法來處理國防 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
22348.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
22372.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這樣的建設或是跨縣式的交通建設我們只要是包括補貼、津貼這種他們人手夠嗎?所以我希望你們要好好的把溝通的狀況做一個具體的報告我們在修法接下來逐條的時候會遇到的問題都必須要有數字要能夠佐證所以財政部能不能在我們逐條之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
22373.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
22400.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
先把這些都做釐清否則的話我們主條要怎麼審本席他會再來這裡喔跟委員報告所以這一定要給我們充分的時間你要需要多少時間溝通全台有這麼多縣市現在本席在這邊就廣泛討論所以就要提出一個時程不然的話主席在這裡我相信主席今天花這麼多的時間陪我們一起審還要到禮拜三結果到時候又很空泛的怎麼樣進行主條討論你需要多少時間你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
22402.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
22421.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這個時間我真的很難在這邊這個說明,因為為什麼?因為每一個縣市都有他堅持的地方。這是我們... 那堅持不下怎麼辦?話跑到天還是來抽籤?就是有些縣市就很堅持,我舉個例子,比如說現在各縣市分配的時候都會有一些比如說像一些指標,比如說營利事業所的額。 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
22423.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
22440.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
現在你說的堅持的指標當中最容易有明顯的、比較大分歧的是什麼?營利是營所稅?營所稅的分配?就是分配,那我最大的稅務就是所額稅,對不對?所額稅,那麼就稅源比較豐富了,他一定希望說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
22440.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
22443.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
財政部或組祭出一個時間點讓我們知道我們接下來如果要做主條討論的時候沒有這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
22463.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
22485.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
原則沒有這些各縣市的我身為一個雖然說我是全國不分區啦齁但是我總不能說因為我住台北或是我的有親人我有我媽媽這邊是在苗栗我爸爸這邊在台南我到時候做什麼我都有偏頗啊所以我需要數據我要各個西方縣、縣市政府他們能夠接受的範圍我才能來做一個佐證啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
22486.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
22506.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
是 包委員 這個基本上我們會努力來做但是我是覺得是說你給我一個假定一個時間假定我今天承諾一個時間但是如果到那個時候還是大家沒有共識的話拿出來的東西那這樣逐條無法進行喔這樣子我覺得會卡住喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
22506.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
22509.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好,因為主席站起來了,主席不好意思,最後10秒鐘我就結束,好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
22535.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
22551.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
就像我們當時討論屯房稅一樣我們就是必須要行文然後必須要能夠有具體的往前一步不然我們在中央修這個法地方不服趕快變那我要告訴我要提醒軟刺喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
22551.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
22569.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
地方其實國民黨執政縣市至少13、14個縣市然後民進黨其實不多然後民眾黨也有這些東西是如果大家各持己見最後整個是撕裂是討論不下去的所以本席就是直接請你們要把具體的結論談出來才能夠進行逐條討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
22571.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
22577.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
財政部事在人為財政部事在人為財政部事在人為財政部事在人為財政部事在人為 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
22596.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
22606.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
謝謝主席那請那個那個卵次那還有卵次長那還有我們主記那個陳副主記長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
22610.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
22627.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
市長好,我想我延續剛剛林淑英委員的這個議題,到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間,因為我們知道你一定必須要是兼顧到很多的一個面向, |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
22628.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
22647.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
22651.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
22676.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
議算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是連動的會連動的但是因為假定現在修的話應該是110最快也是115年才會開始開始調整對基本上是這樣你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
22677.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
22688.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛所以不可能114年然後最快的話也是115年最快會是115年那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
22692.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
22715.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
22717.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
22734.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財劃法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
22736.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
22754.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
會不會?所以我說老龍津貼,因為我剛才講就是說...沒有,知道,我現在問你的就是說台南跟彰化一樣都是那個老龍津貼這兩個其實都是農人,他們領的錢會不會像現在是一致性的?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?好,來 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
22755.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
22756.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
副主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
22775.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
22803.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
22805.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
22832.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
22833.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
22845.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會? |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
22849.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
22867.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
22868.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
22894.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
22895.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
22911.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好 蘭智 我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
22912.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
22932.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
22937.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
22959.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
22960.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
22976.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
業務人員、醫護人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對,所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4千多億的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
22977.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
22999.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動了幾乎都會受影響都是完全攤掉了就剩下3000多億而已啊這個幾乎很多都不能做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
22999.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
23028.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那這個道家話更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢可不可以優先來做呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
23031.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
23049.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
因為我們現在如果釋放出4千億,下放給地方,他馬上就直接衝擊到我們的稅出。所以剛上午有說的,就是我中央只剩下3千多億的情況下,其實所有的計畫性補助就已經都沒有辦法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
23050.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
23072.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的 全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
23076.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
23087.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話,你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
23090.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
23113.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
因為它的金額太大了所以就是說它已經沒有辦法已經沒有補救的一個空間就是說它整個我們這一影響到整個中央這個走運算它是沒有辦法編不出來因為它已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠產生嚴重的排擠就是計畫都編不出來那該怎麼辦呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
23114.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
23141.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多施政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過事權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
23143.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
23158.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
就退讓比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
23160.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
23188.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的就是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
23189.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
23194.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化? |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
23196.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
23219.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政所以有一些剛才我也跟委員報告有可能為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了分了太多了分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了我講直接講白了我想在台南市在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
23221.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
23241.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
23243.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
23262.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的?就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那3%就給台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
23266.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
23294.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
23296.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
23318.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
23319.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
23337.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
所以如果是照目前國民黨版的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧你這叫60幾%的人口的一個比例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
23341.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
23361.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我想這個是一個國家重大的一個財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
23363.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
23385.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
這個慢不是說就不作為,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急,你知道嗎?大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
23388.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
23413.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好 謝謝賴會員、委員那如果照阮次所說的這個這樣子的話這樣錢拖比較多下去就會充分落實地方自治嘛地方決定做什麼然後達到這樣就可以達到主權在民的理念嘛那如果各位委員對各縣市的這個有意見的話比如賴委員就可以提出對台南市比較有利的版本嘛我們一併會併案審查好 謝謝接著我們請郭益勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
23424.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
23449.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
有請次長。輪次長。委員長好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅制騰餘,它到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那它會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
23450.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
23472.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計聖語是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
23474.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
23492.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會有就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
23493.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
23511.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
好 那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
23512.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
23525.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方就交給地方去做這樣就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
23528.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
23554.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
23555.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
23557.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
23572.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
23596.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說我們委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
23596.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
23615.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
23618.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
23643.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個減稅的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎?不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧?我這樣講對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
23644.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
23660.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本為什麼呢?因為現在版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
23660.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
23689.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
23689.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
23706.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
像節約就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠用就不夠這個也一定不夠那社福的部分呢社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
23707.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
23725.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書,我想他會去通盤去做討論因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助這個是我們預估 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
23727.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
23747.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
23748.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
23767.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
對。對。對。對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
23767.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
23790.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
23796.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
23818.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啦是這個是長治久安啦我是覺得這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過喔對 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
23819.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
23840.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
我們本來有70幾個指標,我們扣掉了20幾個,就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的,我們把它貶除掉了之後,現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個,等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識,那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛,這是本席的意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
23841.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
23842.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
接下來我們請林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
23869.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
23874.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
林業勤林業勤林業勤不在接著我們請陳培宇委員好謝謝主席有請次長金鸞次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
23891.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
23912.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年呢上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
23913.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
23932.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
我舉一個例子跟次長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
23934.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
23950.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像但是這樣到底要怎麼討論你們在跟縣市討論的時候你們通常目前討論到目前為止你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
23958.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
23967.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標先大家取得最大的共識那這個對將來的修法等於是又像回到原點一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
23975.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
23992.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
23995.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
24024.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
二十五點那現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
24025.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
24050.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
24052.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
24074.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入主條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
24074.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
24094.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
等一下等一下,還有脫離的。我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的。我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計,它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補。因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
24095.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
24109.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
對那11個縣市有其中11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
24110.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
24131.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
24132.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
24148.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
24157.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
24182.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
24182.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
24197.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
24198.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
24218.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
如果是這樣的話我剛才講是說因為中央這目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來因為我錢已經出去了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
24218.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
24235.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
24239.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
24255.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論? |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
24258.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
24260.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
24284.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
24298.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
24305.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
24320.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
市長要好好準備喔!今天竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會的可貴嘛我們竹條好文當然會有各種不同的意見嘛各個縣市都有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
24322.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
24337.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
沒有我是說請他好好準備才不會丟財政部的臉然後呢不同意見就是民主的可貴嘛民主社會就這樣可貴那如果大家都沒有辦法達成共識國家也是要往前走那我們就會尊重民主的制度嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
24337.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
24354.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我提供我在內政委會修法有八十幾個版本一百多條的經驗告訴大家就是逐條逐條進入討論就會凝聚出共識沒有凝聚出共識呢就像以前民眾黨的做法一樣就送交朝野協商在沒有共識就送交院會表決決定謝謝接著我們請范委員好謝謝主席有請次長阮次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
24368.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
24389.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
委員好次長午安我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
24392.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
24400.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
請問您知道最低的是哪位委員的版本?最低的我印象中好像...就是台上的陳玉珍委員啦!就是中央釋出328億喔!我不是說同一個政黨喔!同一個政黨這個差距有7000! |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
24414.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
24438.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
三百億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
24439.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
24460.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
24463.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
24472.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員? |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
24473.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
24497.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
我覺得是這樣啊,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理那個垂直分配,所以呢...我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5091億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所謂現在分配出去的是10%嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
24498.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
24504.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法判斷嘛所以這個差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
24524.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
24545.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
這地方的聲音齁 這個地方我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話那光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見咧更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
24546.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
24564.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
24567.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
24579.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料勞保基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個勞保基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
24584.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
24589.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了? |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
24611.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
24625.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
24627.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
24653.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
24655.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
24682.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎?這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎?請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃型不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎?不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
24683.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
24703.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
24706.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
24735.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
24737.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
24758.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好地來討論阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
24761.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
24763.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
24771.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
24792.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我們逐條討論以後如果沒有共識那就按照民主的程序少數服從多數多數尊重少數這個本來是這樣子不是啦你剛剛說立法院不是討論的地方讓我非常驚訝啦沒關係齁民主的可貴就是多元意見啦我們一定會好好討論而且我們不能只有廣泛討論太疏空墮墮好 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
24795.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
24800.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
沒關係等下繼續登記可以繼續發言接著我們請羅明才委員謝謝好謝謝主席、各委員、初列席、官員大家好主席可不可以請我們次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
24818.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
24840.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
你好你好我想立法院就是討論的地方是是是不同的意見多多來講特別是這次的召委主席他是表現可圈可點因為他慢慢的讓大家講到內心的話充分的表達不過我大概從 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
24841.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
24863.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
幾十年前聽到現在雖然版本很多剛剛因為有其他同仁也講到我的版本但是其實有那麼多的二十幾個版本它其實都有一個最重要的宗旨就是希望中央不要過度極權其實就是這個道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
24864.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
24884.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
所以剛剛有人講到說本席的提案大概是可能會增加數百億啊那有人的提案是幾千億通通都有而本席以為啊這個成功不必在我也不要說堅持說一定要用我的案只要能過 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
24886.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
24910.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
中央就多一點資源給地方因為我們都是區域選出來的最重要的是希望說多一點資源讓地方好好來做事比如說我們過去是台北縣現在深隔變成新北市深隔前跟這個之前跟之後你那裡有沒有數據啊我們大概的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
24913.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
24940.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
統籌分配稅款從台北縣到現在有增加大概是每年增加多少?如果本席每次在這裡都大聲疾呼啊就要以人均的概念來思考這個問題因為人生而平等嘛這個一個最基本的一個精神所以就是垂直分配的時候這個地方就應該要把它定定下來是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
24940.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
24968.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那這樣才有辦法好好來談事情嘛我們希望以這樣的精神但是你說全部用這樣的一個精神嗎?也不是啊就好像我們最近即將要審查了當沖降稅那其實這個也是我提的啊我這提延長五年嘛那儘管為了彭主委他還是覺得五年比較恰當那他的原因是說希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
24969.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
24993.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
未來整個亞洲的資產管理中心法規如果過度的變動外資就不敢進來今天一進來三年一下兩年就滿了下次又要面臨修法的問題穩定性不夠所以當然長一點比較好所以今天我們討論財劃法最大的一個宗旨就是說把遊戲規則定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
24996.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
25022.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
地方才有辦法依據大概我明年大概可以獲得中央多少的補助我的預算應該怎樣妥適的來編其實過度集權好不好很多民眾也都在講說那前瞻一次要花多少錢8千多億8千4百億8千多億一次就通過不過分很多年就是了分很多年編國防預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
25024.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
25044.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
沒幾分的啪就幾千億幾千這樣出去了為什麼不把這些多的資源放在地方讓地方好好來施政我們說人民當家作主你錢到地方,地方有議會,議會有眼睛會盯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
25045.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
25066.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
那地方他實際需要多少?這你錢充裕一點來,他就有辦法好好來推動嘛。本席在上一次的這個會議當中,我當召委的時候,我請22縣市全部首長不分藍綠什麼的,全部通通都來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
25068.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
25096.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
我就問他那如果有需要的你就大聲講出來請舉手不需要的你就可以先離開結果你知道22縣市全部都留下來表示他們是重視這個市他們是需要的所以我們希望說中央過度集權這是民眾不樂意看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
25097.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
25125.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
因為你再讓我回來講我們是民主國家啊民主國家就應該讓大家更多的監督的機制如果你都說不要不要不要你們中央要全部一把抓那你幹嘛還要現在目前每年有多少給地方公視裡面有嘛公視委員的意思是說現在有多少對 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
25127.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
25130.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
25144.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
25171.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
就是說如果你不給地方全部都由中央來決定的話那是誰說了算?誰來決定?那個就是按照公式去分配的有公式嗎?有公式公式分配所以就是25年來這個公式都沒有修改過嘛所以每個地方現在都改變了嘛像我們以前直轄市、台北市啊後來高雄啊現在六都啊所以六都選出來的這些民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
25172.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
25192.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
每個上來都是大聲疾呼啊為地方來爭取啊如果大家覺得不妥的請覺得不需要的簽個名嘛你可以聲明出來啊你看他回去能不能交代我們來自地方我來立法院我不會地方爭取那我當立委幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
25194.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
25217.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
所以這個邏輯我也請主席你可以問一下如果真的不希望中央統籌稅款的補助他可以上來聲明他就先離開啊他就不需要在這邊講話啦 對不對我們要爭取的是給需要的人地方需要你就大聲疾呼來講的確有這些困難啊我們面對的很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
25218.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
25232.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
醫療的部分應該要增加的,消防車以及地方學校的教育等等,我們是需要的,還有我們有一些道路建設等等,對民眾的需求。 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
25233.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
25256.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
需要中央,更多中央,其實你中央你就把這個制度制定好,就讓它很順利的推展下去嘛。我跟委員報告,其實我是覺得我們對財化法就是兩個堅固,一個是地方的需求,一個是中央的財政認証,都要顧慮到,這是第一個。 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
25257.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
25285.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
第二個其實我們財政部不排斥說要釋出財源因為我們的修法六個原則之中其中一個就是擴大釋出規模所以擴大釋出規模只是說我們希望就是說還能夠調劑營需就是說能夠你釋出去了能夠就是資源比較差的那就多給他也就是說能夠讓他立足點能夠平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
25285.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
25304.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
所以我們的六大的原則當中就包括擴大釋出財源所以中央沒有排斥說要釋出財源但是要合理、要能夠兼顧地方跟中央的需求所以像目前如果說以國民黨版如果釋出4千多億真的中央就很多事情都不能做 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
25307.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
25320.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
現在的情況就是可能有一些第一次來當立委的他比較不曉得說立法院其實就是合一制就算你有很多的版本你有很多意見都可以提出來大家可以協調嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
25322.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
25344.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
協調當然可以協調但是我是說如果啦所以為什麼要草野協商就是大家來聽聽看大家的意見也許你沒有辦法100分每個人都沒有辦法爭取到滿可是多少嘛80分也可以70分也可以我倒是有一個想法就是說因為我們有一個六大的修法原則假定 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
25345.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
25361.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
用這個六大原則來檢視各版本如果可以的話就慢慢就可以聚焦然後慢慢的就是說你釋出的規模大概釋出多少那你水平分配應該用什麼指標來做分配最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
25361.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
25386.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
如果用這六大原則來檢視各版本的話,也許就比較容易有聚焦的可能啦。因為現在我跟委員報告就是說,現在很多版本都只注重什麼呢?注重就是錢的垂直分配啦。這樣子的話就會導致一個問題就是說,有錢的會更有錢,然後沒有錢的會更沒有錢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
25387.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
25412.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
就是平則越平,然後負則越平。其實我覺得你講的有一些道理啦。比如說,在這些那麼多的版本裡面,如果財政部有更好的方式,那財政部版本趕快拿出來。那我們就會跟著你的版本,我們來做凝聚共識嘛。所以我覺得這個也很好。其實在上個會期的時候,我們一直給財政部時間, |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
25414.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
25442.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
時間已經給了,等很久了我希望說市長剛剛講的六大原則資料給大家大家多多來研究一下如果說真的很好我也不見得會堅持一定要通過我的版本但是我覺得共同的精神是一致的那麼多版本大家幹嘛就是希望地方增加地方的財政錢可以多一點給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
25442.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
25471.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
大概就這樣子而已。所以不見得說要5000多億,沒有5000多億,3000多億大家談一談,只要有幫助。其實我是覺得是這樣,如果是說中央跟地方,大家可以各讓一步,然後就是一開始不要釋出那麼多規模會影響到中央的施政的話,其實都比較好處理。現在比例中央跟地方大概多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
25472.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
25501.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
現在的比例目前是這樣子62比38但是支出中央是64那地方是36換句話說中央的雖然是62但是我們的支出是64這也是為什麼這幾年我們財政中央的都是赤字那地方的這幾年都是雲雨到去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
25502.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
25517.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
那麼他已經達到648億的原因在這裡因為中國不斷的釋出那最後就是因為新北市人口最多是千萬拜託人均的概念讓新北市多一點的資源好做事拜託謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
25521.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
25545.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
謝謝羅明才委員那我覺得次長講得很好啊就趕快提出財政部的版本你們都有覆案了嘛我們已經給你們三個月又有兩個月啦三個月又一個月啦六月份做的決議財委會有做一個決議說要提出版本嘛你們既然有六大指標就趕快按照指標提出來啊那照理剛剛說64比36那國民黨希望6比4也只有差4%因為很接近啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
25548.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
25564.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
對吧?62比4是收入嘛,我們說的是支出,支出是64比36嘛,中央地方嘛對不對?那我們要變成6比4只有4%的差距而已啊只是差別在於地方政府要提出計劃讓你們審還是由地方政府自己決定計劃嘛大概差別是在這裡嘛好,接著我們請張志榮委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
25572.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
25577.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
主席好、各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
25584.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
25601.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
委員好。政事好。謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
25603.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
25608.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
25627.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
25644.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政策我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
25657.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
25684.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右啦。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然100,剛剛講委員提到111、112,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是次制啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
25684.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
25712.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
25714.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
25736.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債的都是赤字 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
25743.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
25764.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
所以只是稅收那一部分,就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多,但是你如果加計特別預算的話,其實還是赤字啦。好,了解,謝謝政事。那本席了解就是說政府的預算,因為每年都超出稅收,這就是人民的納稅錢啦,可是因為特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
25766.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
25783.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
25785.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
25785.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
25800.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
25818.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本期是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億結果還目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
25819.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
25836.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
25838.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
25857.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上給提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
25858.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
25883.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本上所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分我認為不能但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
25884.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
25908.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
25909.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
25922.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
25923.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
25947.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
25950.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
25957.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
那最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
25972.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
25978.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
對,我們會努力來整合,所以市長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論,對不對?因為這是大約的職權,就是委員自然就可以去怎麼決定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
25993.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
26014.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
26015.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
26037.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我就覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
26038.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
26062.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
感覺上我的理解可能會不會就是卓院長講的現在版本是最好的版本就是說我猜想可能就是說還沒有更好的之前也許現在是最好的因為為什麼?因為大家就照目前這樣子一直分配下去那地方也拿到最多的錢嘛但是我覺得當然每一個想法不一樣啦我們還是這個很多東西都還是可以再進一步討論啦好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
26067.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
26078.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖赤你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好,接著我們請吳立華吳委員謝謝謝謝主席,有請次下 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
26095.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
26101.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
請問我們短次長還有主席人員主席長回來了喔喔 主席長回來了喔好 寫商結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
26107.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
26135.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
委員好次長好、主席長好大家都累了、很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五也通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
26136.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
26155.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖ 財政收支劃分法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
26156.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
26158.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
26178.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
26190.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
26205.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
26212.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
26214.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
26237.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘我們目前的做法是剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
26243.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
26249.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
應該是……應該算是……算是等於是我們就有……還是我應該問主席長?問主席長,這個稅計攝影師的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
26254.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
26277.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
26277.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
26291.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短促經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
26292.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
26309.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
26314.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
26337.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
26338.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
26343.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
26345.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
26371.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短處還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短處但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短處來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
26373.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
26396.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
今天早上鄭天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億鄭委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
26397.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
26406.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
那另外呢我們的預算這個提案說明他說嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
26407.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
26432.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比我不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
26433.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
26434.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
他們一直提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
26454.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
26473.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
26474.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
26498.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢吶它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
26499.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
26501.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
但是他從去年開始112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
26517.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
26530.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計畫來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
26532.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
26556.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
26558.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
26585.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助,修繕的補助,買房子的補助,這個可以收回嗎?對,那你講到基金我就要談了,因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦,因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
26588.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
26594.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20% |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
26598.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
26624.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
26625.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
26654.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
因為原住民綜合發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
26657.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
26682.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
撥補400億進去之後花完了就沒有了跟我們這種我請教主席長哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下但是也是有在撥補啦是這樣子那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕? |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
26685.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
26712.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
欸 你們都 你看剛才我有的問題你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花棟地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的一個...因為剩下6秒齁 5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
26714.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
26722.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總組這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
26742.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
26762.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦啊如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
26766.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
26790.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公佈預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎?所以是不是一場鬧劇? |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
26792.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
26800.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
26823.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
26851.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
26852.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
26863.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
26865.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
26890.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了早一點撥補多一點錢進裡頭不要用的時候才需要好像去加上罐乞丐啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
26890.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
26918.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
就像是我們現在修這個財政收支劃分法一樣嘛就 裡面就應該讓他有錢這樣運作起來比較順暢那如果這個總預算這個真的如委員所說的比如說公屋基金編4萬啦齁這個 公屋預算編4萬 原住民基金編2萬那如果吳立浩委員是左院長的話這件事情就解決了嘛現在是左院長應該也沒有承諾是4加2這個樣子啦齁 如果有的話這事情就解決了嘛齁好 謝謝接著我們請黃珊珊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
26932.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
26941.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
謝謝主席,我請次長還有主組長曾主席長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
26948.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
26972.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見那當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
26973.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
26984.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋? |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
26986.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
27007.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
27015.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
27041.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
以目前來講的話原則上大部分縣市原則上都有滿足來次長因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由囉我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過就是其中一個原則我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
27043.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
27062.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢?你覺得合理不合理?這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理?我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4千億不合理你告訴我多少億合理? |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
27063.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
27080.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
那我的意思是說,我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題...所以你們討論了一整年,也沒有任何的...市長,你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的? |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
27081.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
27106.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
27107.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
27125.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
27126.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
27152.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
27153.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
27177.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個月所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大市數的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
27182.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
27207.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
27209.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
27234.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
27235.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
27253.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
27254.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
27281.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修財化法2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
27282.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
27294.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
27303.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
27321.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
27322.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
27341.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
27342.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
27360.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
27361.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
27388.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
27389.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
27394.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
27395.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
27419.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
27420.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
27446.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
27447.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
27473.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
27474.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
27485.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
27486.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
27513.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
27514.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
27530.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
好,所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不是沒辦法做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
27530.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
27547.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
我們現在雖然是3兆3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
27548.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
27574.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
27575.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
27599.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
27601.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
27613.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
謝謝主席謝謝黃珊珊委員大家都因期盼財政部提出版本我們再次請求盡快盡快謝謝接著我們請李燕秀委員謝謝召委我可不可以請次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
27631.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
27644.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
委員好市長好我想今天這幾天包括上個會期我們委員會其實都討論非常多財政、財化法的修法其實已經隔了25年沒有修包括剛才你們回應說這個擺不平 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
27647.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
27667.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財化法到這個會期你們還送不出來幾大理由我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論就因為擺不平所以該做的事情都不做嗎在我看來這叫做行政的怠惰沒有一件事情是容易每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
27669.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
27689.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為擺不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方,沒有一件事情是容易的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
27689.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
27717.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
27719.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
27746.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘文安等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
27747.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
27765.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
27767.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
27786.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
27787.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
27800.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
27802.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
27825.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給它收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
27826.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
27845.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
27848.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
27876.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
27878.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
27898.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推讓一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情,整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
27900.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
27922.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
27924.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
27925.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
27955.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
27979.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
27983.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
27990.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
27991.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
28012.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
28013.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
28027.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。都沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
28029.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
28054.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
要怎麼樣做事權的分配中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體化提出來沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
28056.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
28082.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
就是說整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我們批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
28085.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
28106.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這4年、這8年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心建的更完整、更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
28108.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
28124.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
文字建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
28125.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
28138.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
28141.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
28167.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進一步民進黨也執政邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
28169.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
28195.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
28196.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
28226.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
我建議台北市仍舊是一個守善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分還應該要有的相關的一些首都的加擠所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
28227.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
28234.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
報告委員,剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
28235.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
28257.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
28258.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
28283.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
28283.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
28311.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
28313.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
28334.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的招委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
28335.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
28341.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
28362.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
28380.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
本院黨團擬具《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
28389.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
28391.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
28505.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
28525.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
28535.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
28556.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
28588.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
28593.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
28615.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
28616.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
我已經跟他黨通話講好的分析了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
28660.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
28668.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會接著我們請吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員不在吼接著我們請王宏威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
28678.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
28679.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
28697.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
28716.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
主席長請教一下因為您長期都在主席處所以對預算執行非常的清楚那我想請問一下我們現在來討論財劃法的修正會不會造成明年度的預算執行的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
28717.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
28727.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
跟明年預算執行有沒有相關?我們現在討論財化法的修正跟明年度的預算執行有沒有相關? |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
28729.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
28756.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
要看他什麼時候生效執行是但是基本上你們的預算已經通過了嘛對不對也送到立法院了所以我們今天我們即便是這個會期完成這個財化法的修正會影響到明年度嗎如果說你要用114年度的決算的時機去算的話那就會有影響這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
28757.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
28760.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
沒有我就說明年度的執行是 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
28761.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
28784.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
明年度的執行原則上是不會的不會嘛對不對明年度執行預算不會嘛他最快最快也是影響到115年度對不對這個部分我們必須釐清因為今天早上一大堆之前也沒有在關心財劃法那一大堆可能預算也看不懂的委員在這邊東講西講好像今天財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
28788.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
28814.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
的這個修正或者是通過立刻就影響114年度我覺得這是有很大的謬誤好我想請教一下今天早上我也特別提到就是我們賴總統說明年度也就114年度我們的補助款會增加800多億那麼我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
28816.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
28837.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
以六都來說,那麼在整個的補助款的部分哪一個縣市補助的金額最多?好,你們現在才在做功課,來我們可以看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
28839.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
28862.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
現在以預算數我們中央補助來我們再看一個就是台北市六都最少的那個部分可以看到除了統籌分配稅款之外很重要的就是來自於中央的補助款那以114年度的預算案來說台北市163億然後高雄市708億 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
28865.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
28894.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
新北市603億、桃園502億、台中530億、台南515億所以從這邊非常明顯可以看到在補助收入的部分即使明年度說哎呀我們中央會補助會增加很多很多沒有問題但是可以看到光是在補助收入的部分台北市仍然是吊車尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
28895.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
28914.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
最後一名而且啊如果我們看到統籌款加補助款就是倒數第二第二的那個項目D等於B加C的部分可以看到高雄市統籌加補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
28915.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
28939.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
明年的金額高達1229億元而台北市的部分呢861.05億這中間差了370億元我要特別講中央的補助收入台北市六都最少我今天早上就特別講到就是為什麼要修財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
28940.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
28960.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
因為不修財劃法我們的中央他掌握了75%的財源然後說沒有問題我是老大哥我來補助各個縣市可是當你在補助的時候這就出現了換寡就是不換寡 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
28961.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
28990.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
而換不均的問題。你不平均嗎?或者是有些縣市永遠拿的很多。來,我們再來看下一頁。對不起啊,哪看到那個,就是在那個大的表。好,我們來看到。這個呢,我剛剛講的是114年度。如果我們看各年度,高雄市跟台北市的相比, |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
28991.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
29010.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
你就會覺得不可思議啊以一柱財源中央的補助款來說到了114年台北市跟高雄市我們講補助款喔台北市跟高雄市差了545億看到114年545億 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
29015.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
29020.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
但是我們之前111、112、113110年112都是200多億但是到了113年就擴大成383億到了114年又擴大成545億我想請問一下明年發生什麼樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
29034.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
29049.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
明天到底發生什麼樣的事情讓台北市跟高雄市之間的差距越來越高越來越多主計長請問你們在補助款說啊對外講說補助會增加很多但是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
29051.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
29078.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
台北市跟高雄市差距這麼多什麼道理報告議員其實台北市齁如果說用統籌分配稅款他一般性補助台北市114年他得到845億高雄市得到697億但是你不能說以他這個補助收入佔稅出的一個規模比率來做分配因為像台北市他的稅出的規模很大那相對的他一般補助下面的一個比率就會減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
29079.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
29092.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
那所以以總額來看,最多的是台北市啊,然後高雄市...總額怎麼會最多台北市?對,如果同114年...從仇家補助課我剛才告訴你...不是,我先...高雄高達1200多億不是,那一家計畫... |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
29094.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
29117.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
台北市861億不是有三種補助嘛一種是統籌分配稅一統籌分配稅是他自己的自有財源嘛然後再來是一般性補助再來就是計劃型那計劃型是部會各部會看他計劃的一個可行性去核定他並不是所以高雄市的可行性就比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
29118.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
29127.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
台北市可行性就比較低嗎?你現在是要告訴我這些嗎?你沒辦法告訴我,對啊!因為你們就不公平啊!你怎麼告訴我呢?所以我告訴你的是,這個都是有數字、有真相。 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
29136.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
29151.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
但是它還有計劃型還有按財力去分配在排序的部分在排序的部分齁財力第一的話它可能只補助百分之多少它比率補助的比率計劃型補助的比率也是不一樣的你可以告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
29153.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
29171.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
台北市可能它的財務能力是比高雄市高那請問一下高雄市沒有比桃園高嗎?高雄市沒有比台中高嗎?可是高雄永遠永遠永遠不管在比例上都是名列前茅不是第一就是第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
29172.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
29187.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
在補助金額上永遠是第一或者是第二所以我現在跟你因為我是台北市的立委我當然要幫我們台北市講話差那麼多嘛我請問你為什麼111年差了257億114年差了545億發生什麼事情到底發生什麼事情台北市是一直我們講說財政能力台北市財政能力確實是比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
29199.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
29226.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
那請問一下為什麼差到將近一倍之多呢?所以我主要是看蔣萬安不順眼嗎?還是看陳其邁特別順眼呢?因為我一般性的補助明明是台北市比高雄市還要多我在統籌分配稅和一般性補助我兩個匯整起來台北市是比高雄市還要多你怎麼睜眼說瞎話來回到這個台北市六度最少的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
29228.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
29233.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
我們給你看B加C啊 對不對?統計分配稅款是你們分配的補助收入也是你們分配的台北市就861億啊你高雄市明年就達到1200多億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
29243.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
29251.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
致水預算臺北市184億前瞻臺北市致水預算184億高雄1200億這是前瞻的致水預算114年中央補助的收入臺北市861億高雄市又1200多億是怎樣啦?把我們臺北市當世漢嗎?所以這就是為什麼我們收財劃分法為什麼如此迫切 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
29273.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
29276.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
全都轉在你們手上你愛給誰就給誰你喜歡給誰多一點就多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
29280.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
29307.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
這就是為什麼要修財劃法所以這就是為什麼財政部遲遲不願意提出版本啊行政院不願意嘛啊主技術反正放在手裡面啊噢這個444跟我顏色一樣啊我比較喜歡他不住手就多一點然後這個我不喜歡他我就少一些我還沒有去跟你去比桃園跟台中勒是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
29309.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
29331.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
這些數字不是只有114年從之前我剛才講這些數字連從111年開始你們就不公平了一直不公平到現在然後每天對外講說我的補助很多大家不要吵我會給你們糖吃那為什麼有人吃的多有人吃的少呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
29332.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
29344.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
你有沒有辦法告訴我啊為什麼114年他們的差距高雄跟台北的差距可以增加到一倍之多呢?主席長我知道你剛剛來啊我現在能把這個理由說因為主席長的關係嗎?其實我也不認為是你的關係啦那是賴總統的關係嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
29354.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
29372.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
所以在這邊第一個我要特別的幫我們其他的縣市包括我們台北市你的那個補助款也好或者是我們益住財源的稅數比例也好台北市長期的敬佩莫做對台北市不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
29373.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
29392.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
第2個,財化法的修正有它的正當性及必要性,否則的話,我們就年復一年的發生這樣的狀況啊,是不是?然後你們挨補助誰就補助誰,最後其結果就是這樣的不平均,這樣的不公平啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
29393.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
29407.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
好不好甚至我覺得114年我剛講我們今天才划法修正就算我們這個會期完全修正114年度還是你們還是手在那個錢在你們手上但是拜託你們不要這樣的分配不均謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
29410.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
29430.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
好 謝謝王宏威委員謝謝主席長因為我們現在時間是16點40我們下面還有好多委員剛剛也有委員提出要做第二輪發言所以我們要先先讓我們有兩位委員徵求在場委員的同意我們就延長開會繼續開會延長開會時間好 到大家講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
29436.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
29445.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
有沒有意見呢?沒有喔?沒意見。好,那我們就延長開會時間,等一下要準備便當,說不定還要準備宵夜。好,請高金樹美委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
29451.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
29479.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
非常謝謝裕貞委員今天你真的非常的辛苦啊趙偉讓大家在這邊暢所欲言謝謝好了今天呢雖然是這個財政收支劃分法的這個大家在討論但是呢因為剛剛對於原住民進法補償還有總預算的部分有委員在這邊胡說八道所以呢我還是要來說一下我們剛剛草野協商才結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
29480.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
29501.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
那我也非常謝謝也辛苦我們陳主席長那你也參加然後現在又來這裡那麼我也謝謝韓院長因為政黨協商本來只有三長才能夠參加啦但是呢因為禁法補償還有總預算是跟原住民的權益有關係的所以呢特別呢就 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
29502.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
29518.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
提了只要是原住民身份的立委都可以參加協商那我比較遺憾的就是呢韓院長召集正式的政黨協商已經兩次了可是呢身為原住民的民進黨的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
29518.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
29533.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
沒有一個人來參加來捍衛原住民的權益這我感到非常的不可思議我要再講一次禁法補償不是照顧也不是福利是政府侵權 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
29535.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
29564.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
侵犯了原住民個人的土地財產權因此中華民國的憲法是保障人民的財產權的所以我們才會在立法院來修來提原住民的禁法補償我要再講一次這個禁法補償縱使只有一個人的權益他被受損了 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
29565.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
29593.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
也應該要被保障啊更何況我們禁法補償領的人大概有5萬多人欸這5萬多人如果一戶有5口人的話他就相當於30幾萬的人口欸這不是少數欸所以呢請民進黨的立法委員不要在這邊可惡的在裂解在分裂原住民的族人啊好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
29594.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
29610.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
那麼我今天這個協商我請陳主席長上來一下謝謝請陳主席長今天的協商我感到不可思議的民進黨的黨團一開始上來的時候就講如果今天大家同意115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
29613.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
29630.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
民眾黨要提出禁法補償下修一公頃4萬塊如果大家同意這個前提的話他在114年的原住民的禁法補償案他就想辦法來編足 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
29632.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
29658.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
我實在不可思議耶民眾黨團會提這樣子的說法但是我們的主計長他的說法是說如果原民會真的覺得預算不足的話他們可以來想辦法用追加總預算或者是用二倍金的方法或者是用原住民綜合發展基金來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
29660.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
29679.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
行政院跟民眾黨團似乎沒有溝通好啊我發現行政院好像比較有誠意欸竹記長你剛剛都在現場嘛 這都是你講的話嘛 對不對好所以呢我現在要來問了剛剛在這邊有一個武立法委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
29680.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
29685.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
原民會的單位編列預算4萬,綜合發展基金會另外編列2萬但是我特別帶了綜發基金的預算書來我怎麼翻裡面都沒有看到這個預算書裡面綜合發展基金有2萬塊的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
29701.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
29725.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
我反而看到的是在第12頁裡面其他業務收入有28億這個28億是行政院願意給禁法補償的費用然後呢由原民會的公務預算撥補到綜合發展基金裡面來給原住民嘛主計長沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
29726.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
29742.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
報告委員,一項淨化補償的一個發放我沒有問你這個,這是我下一個問題嘛我現在問你的是第12頁裡面上面寫的其他業務收入28億1600多是辦理原住民保留地淨化補償經費的經費嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
29746.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
29756.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
所以我要說明還沒嘛還沒說嘛這個28億是行政院給原民會的公務預算沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
29757.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
29777.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
是公務預算通過補基金但是投資出也是透過基金所以嘛我就跟你說28億淨法補償只有園民會的公務預算編在這裡對不對然後28億再放到綜合發展基金裡面去給原住民的淨法補償嘛對不對這是基金的來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
29780.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
29786.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
你講對或不對嗎?28億是不是這樣?這是基金的來源好,我現在再告訴你一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
29788.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
29792.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
來,基金的設立終止。64年這個也是中發基金喔,明年都要告訴我們喔。64年台灣省政府為了輔導原住民族創業生產發展原住民族地區經濟而開辦的貸款業務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
29811.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
29838.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
然後94年左手嚴明原住民族綜合發展基金四年計劃他辦理什麼呢?原住民的貸款業務信用保證業務他還增加新的服務項目包括什麼?開辦原住民族微型經濟活動貸款輔助原住民族部落溫泉投資開發業務等等對吧?沒有錯嗎?禁法補償在哪裡?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
29838.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
29862.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
然後再來看一下基金的規類及屬性這個基金呢是按照預算法第四條第二項第二款第四目所定明言講出凡付出仍可收回而非用於營業之住業基金所以綜合發展基金講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
29864.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
29869.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
是要付出去可以收回,請問禁法補償出去了還能收回嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
29870.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
29894.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
當然不行對不對?好我們再來看一下今年3月5號行政院陳建仁前院長跟朱哲銘前主計長備詢的時候他都說可以尊重修法的可行性只要修法通過就會編列預算這是行政院當初的誠意主計長為什麼過了幾個月之後行政院態度大變你們只願意編列4萬的補償金為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
29897.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
29919.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
報告委員齁 這個部分呢原住民的淨化補償在基本法裡面他第18條他有規定他基金的來源就包括政府撥補有關淨化補償相關的賠償相關的一個費用然後你從他的用途別的計劃裡面就是在基金用途他的裡面計劃也有一項是屬於淨化補償相關的一個支出所以他收入和支出兩個是相對應的只是說你這個才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
29925.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
29943.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
你講的是支出啊。我們來看一下綜合發展基金運用的相關法源依據是什麼。辦法是辦法。你的辦法不能夠逾越法律啊。我們來看一下相關法源依據。 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
29944.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
29966.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
原住民綜合發展基金收支保管以及運用辦法第一條他就明文規定原住民族綜合發展基金是依照預算法第21條的規定來辦理的我來看一下預算法第21條規定政府設立的特種基金除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
29967.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
29993.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
編列預算、製程依本法規定辦理之外其收支保管辦法由行政院定之並送立法院再來看一下預算法第4條第1項第2款第4目凡經付出仍可收回而非用於營業者為作業基金請問經把補償發給族人還可以收回嗎?這又符合基金可付出仍可收回的性質嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
29995.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
29995.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
主計長、主計長、主計長、主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
30021.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
30044.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
主計長,你的來源已經給了28億啊,我知道啊,行政院給了啊,那我現在問你另外2萬在哪裡啊,基金有嗎?好啦,不要浪費大家的時間了啦齁,我現在總歸一句,既然禁法補償出去不可以償還,這就代表著不符合付出願可收回的要件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
30045.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
30049.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
而且這會讓基金負債這是我要講的另外一個問題它會讓基金負債更會讓基金破產所以呢我在114年預算書看到來67頁我們的綜合發展基金短促了67億 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
30065.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
30081.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
請問主計長114年累計短處67.7億是不是已經是當初主計總處所講的也就是朱前主計長的基金財務不敷情形要協處的狀況請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
30083.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
30095.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
要怎麼處理?你要撥補基金?基金剩餘有將近30億啦。因為整個基金我們本來是撥100多億買的。撥105年,來來來,你把資料翻出來,我現在給你資料看,105年剩了12.9億。然後呢現在你給我的資料,114年12月31號負債67億,也就是短處67億。主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
30112.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
30118.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
說話都拿出證據好不好我現在問你的是短處67億你要怎麼處理因為前組記長說如果財務不敷情形你們會協處 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
30130.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
30135.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
會不會協處?會不會協處?要不要協處?要不要協處?好啦基金已經要破產基金已經要破產了不要忘記禮拜五上個禮拜五玉珍委員齁我們有提案嘛對不對原住民中和發展經濟總額不可以低於新台幣100億嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
30160.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
30180.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
還記得嗎?昨天禮拜五在院會裡面民眾黨的立法委員反對原住民的立法委員也反對我真的搞不清楚你們到底要幹嘛因為我浪費太多的時間不好意思我現在回歸到財劃法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
30182.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
30202.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
財政紀律法的一個規定因為我們不能不要再講財政紀律法剛剛我們在裡面協商的時候大家都講得很清楚了財政紀律法裡面你113年台電你要追加這麼多錢欸你們都可以為什麼就沒有財政紀律法然後我們的老農津貼為什麼也不依照財政條例法 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
30204.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
30228.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
這個莫名其妙了你們你們一直在講財政紀律財政紀律民進黨就沒有財政紀律然後回歸到原住民就有財政紀律不要這樣兩套標準好不好我現在回歸到財化法的部分103年地方制度法修正的時候恢復3地原住民族地區的自治地位但是呢也剝奪了3地原住民區的稅捐謝謝請主席長回去那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
30231.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
30251.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
財政部請上來,謝謝次長是嗎?今天來的,好好,103年地方制度法修正的時候恢復三地原住民族地區自治的地位但是呢,同樣的也剝奪了三地原住民區的稅捐還有三地原住民區的公共債務等等的財政事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
30252.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
30273.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
目前的補救方式也僅僅在地方制度法的第83之7條的規定三地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市跟三地原住民區來協調我們完全是要看直轄市的誠意雙方協商能力是非常不對等的這導致了三地原住民區的財措 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
30276.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
30301.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
財源的能力不如其他的鄉鎮市我們常常是處於經濟拮据的狀況難以分配專屬的統籌分配稅款僅僅只能依靠原民會的補助款在生存我們如果行政院有條文版本只要能夠解決山地原住民區的財政問題我願意來支持請問一下院板可以解決這些問題嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
30303.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
30326.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
目前是有提案,是有把這一部納進去了有嗎?現在行政院版本有嗎?在第幾條?這是吳委員的,吳立華吳委員的所以他也清楚知道這個部分對不對?好,那現在行政院,等一下我要問一下,不要行政院又跟吳立華委員的意見不一樣囉? |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
30327.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
30333.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
因為吳立華委員經法補償提6萬我們按照他的6萬通過結果行政院現在是說違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
30336.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
30362.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
請問一下行政院的態度你現在沒辦法回答也沒關係啦我不要再用太多的時間財政收支劃分法第16條之一的特別統籌分配稅款是用中央統籌分配稅款的總額6%為額度來支應受分配地方政府緊急還有其他重大事項所需的經費我們看一下賴清德總統他在擔任行政院長的時候他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
30364.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
30382.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
106年度還有剩餘的中央特別統籌分配稅款他會分配給六都還有16縣市、198個鄉鎮市以及6個直轄市的山地原住民區這是賴清德總統做行政院長的時候他曾經做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
30382.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
30412.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
所以我要問我們是不是能夠比較當時的先例未來我們就明文來規範特別統籌分配稅款一定額度必須要用於補助直轄市山地原住民區還有財政收入未達一定程度的偏鄉可以嗎這個是行政院的權責可不可以用文字入法雖然已經有人提案了但是我很怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
30413.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
30433.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
委員的提案行政院又不買單啊,然後賴總統已經是總統了,不是行政院長啊,他又有雙標啊,次長因為現在區,就是我們直轄市裡面的區啊,它的人口面積已經並同直轄市計算了,你要單獨又把它列出來,列出來以後又是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
30434.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
30456.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
好啦,你現在已經在幫賴總統在開始在圓他以前做的事情了好啦,謝謝你,謝謝你的回應不過要提醒你吼,那個吳立華委員的提案吼,我會完全支持喔不過希望行政院吼,或者是賴總統不要再打臉你們自己民眾黨的立委啦,謝謝好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
30459.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
30459.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
主席黃國昌議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
30490.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
30515.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
現在是財政收支劃分法大體的討論我要先感謝主席等了25年的財政收支劃分法今天終於在財政委員會進入大體討論在大體討論的時候我覺得過去這段歷程當中針對財政收支劃分法我們的財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
30516.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
30530.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
用偷自覺用偷自覺欺騙社會、欺騙國會這件事情我覺得在大體討論的時候要留下完整的紀錄為什麼我這樣說民眾黨在野的時候當時民主進步黨的主席蘇貞昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
30539.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
30568.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
帶著民眾黨所有執政的縣市長開了一場什麼記者會啊真抱歉我們就是這麼窮真抱歉我們就是這麼窮為什麼會窮過去美金這麼多年的研究早就清楚地凸顯出來了我國在地方自治的時候住友的財源偏低支出的結構僵化 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
30570.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
30596.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
任何在研究財政收支劃分法的學者包括綠營學者自己在裡面很清楚知道問題的關鍵在哪裡所以大聲疾呼一定要修財政收支劃分法從總統蔡英文2015年競選總統的時候她的競選證件也說要修財政收支劃分法我現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
30599.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
30616.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
賴清德總統2018年當行政院院長的時候那時候我人已經在財政委員會了他也說要修財政收支劃分法過去那幾年我們一直在問一個相同的問題民眾黨從在野的時候喊 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
30622.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
30635.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
要修財政收支劃分法喊到全面執政說要修財政收支劃分法到現在已經2024年了財政收支劃分法修法的版本到底啊在什麼地方從這一屆的國會開始我不斷的請教我們的財政部部長莊部長莊部長跟大家說的是什麼情緒的演繹啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
30650.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
30674.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
收集他在財委會發言過的財政收支劃分法從五大原則到六大原則講來講去答應說什麼要擴大財政規模提升地方財政自主我再說一次要擴大財政規模提升地方財政自主每一次上來質詢問財政部持續在研議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
30679.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
30692.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
2012年的時候、在野的時候民眾黨自己就有黨團版啦把2016年全面執政的時候做出了承諾到現在2024年啊之前在財政委員會質詢都說什麼說我們持續研議從頭到尾都是騙局為什麼說從頭到尾都是騙局當你們說研議的時候就是沒有要修啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
30708.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
30710.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
用偷的用混的啊因為左榮泰講了大實話左榮泰說啊現行的版本是最棒的版本他說現行的版本是最棒的版本啊跟12年前比啊12年前的版本不就是今天的版本嗎12年前的時候說什麼非修不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
30736.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
30761.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
2016年的時候當選的時候非休不可2018年賴清德當行政院院長的時候說一定要休到2024年在我們的財政部多年的研議不斷的研議情緒的研議研議到今天終於現出原形啦現形的版本是最棒的版本過去這幾年政治人物 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
30765.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
30793.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
對台灣社會做的許諾是在講什麼?開空投支票!騙選票!在國會說什麼?我們持續的研議有五大原則、有六大原則研議到最後左右派現出原形了嘛現形的版本是最棒的版本為什麼現形的版本是最棒的版本?因為現形的版本讓中央政府把錢全部握在手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
30795.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
30801.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
這不正是過去12年前那時候在戰友的時候還有理想性的民主進步黨痛批了財政收支劃分法嗎我覺得這段歷程 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
30823.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
30844.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
一定要清楚地記錄下來一定要清楚地記錄下來接下來我相信雖然我聽到今天很多不管是民主進步黨的委員還是在野黨的委員大家的高見接下來修法的時候都是重要的參考依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
30846.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
30863.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
我也聽到了很多委員呼籲財政部要趕快提出版本但我的判斷是財政部不會提出任何版本他不會提出任何版本因為左翁泰就講了現行的版本是最棒的版本而現行的版本是25年前的版本如果真的是最棒的版本過去這20、30年為什麼大家都在疾呼要修財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
30877.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
30893.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
我希望我們的召委扛得住壓力啊扛得住壓力啊財政收支劃分法延宕了25年的財政收支劃分法希望可以在這個會期順利的完成整個修法的歷程以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
30895.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
30897.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員韓國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
30917.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
30941.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
各位同仁我們第一輪的廣泛討論所有登記發言的委員都已經第一輪第一輪討論所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢那我們在場我們進行第二輪的討論第二輪的廣泛討論那我們可以先給大家休息十分鐘來登記好嗎登記完以後我們就繼續第二輪的廣泛討論謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
30946.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
30962.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
30966.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
30976.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
30979.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
31007.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
31011.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
31030.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
31037.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
31052.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續� |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
31053.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
31081.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
31087.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
31115.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續� |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
31119.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
31125.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
全體委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
31130.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
31149.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
財政收支劃分法〈一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法〉20案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
31151.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
31177.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
31179.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
31194.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
31201.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
31225.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
31228.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
31245.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
31250.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
31256.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
財政收支劃分法 議員羅明才等23人分別擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
31268.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
31289.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等24人分別擬具本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等24人分別擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
31293.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
31318.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案： |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
31321.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
31346.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續� |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
31349.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
31369.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
31370.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
31371.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
31385.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
31406.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
31406.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
31422.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
31422.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
31435.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法： |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
31446.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
31464.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
31466.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
31468.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
《財政收支劃分法》20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
31476.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
31492.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續� |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
31506.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
31519.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
31525.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
31541.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
31543.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
31567.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續� |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
31575.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
31594.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
好我們繼續開會齁我們這個第二輪廣泛討論的發言已經登記完畢喔那有三位委員登記齁我們一樣齁本會委員8加2分鐘齁非本會委員5分鐘啦好那我們請登記第一號的黃士健委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
31611.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
31616.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
謝謝主席,我請主計長跟財政部主計長跟阮次長你們兩位辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
31629.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
31656.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
一整天這個我請教我先請教主計長後我們說那地方預算那麼這個分配我們有五大原則面積人口從事工業的人數從事農、漁、牧業人口數還有就是說營利事業的家數那以這些原則來制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
31658.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
31668.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
但是這五大原則之間到底孰重孰輕比例是怎麼樣?你們有研議、有結論了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
31670.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
31685.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
有定案了嗎?比方說人口或者面積這個比例。我現在只能跟委員報告目前的權重。就直轄市的話,就是人口是佔50%,人口20%,面積20%,然後就是財政能力10%,另外一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
31693.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
31694.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
31723.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
31731.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
以這個原則來講,所以職長既然你們有你的這個原則所以我就問你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
31733.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
31754.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
財政部,你們有沒有打算提出我們行政院、我們院版的這個財政收支劃分法?現在正在這個跟地方政府,因為這個是涉及到地方政府的財源嘛,所以我們現在就是一直在跟地方政府在開會、在研商。還在開會、還在研商,那你有沒有打算這麼做? |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
31756.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
31774.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
現在是這樣,我們是希望就是一套化嘛,就是指甲式跟縣市就一套化但是因為現在各縣市政府現在提的那個版本很多,那麼指標也很多,有80個那80個那我們現在開會一直一直給他收斂一直收斂,那現在已經收斂到已經比較小的範圍了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
31775.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
31796.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
就是剩下比如說像這個權重的問題或者是說哪一些還有像防治污染要不要進去或者是說節省的這個稅出那部分要不要進去剩下這幾項所以我們會繼續努力來看看就是說水平這部分盡量能夠有所以也就是說我們會提出願板嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
31799.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
31819.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
目前我們來努力先把大家有一個共識我個人是這樣認為啦我是認為從中央地方我們這個預算的分配齁四個字啦知識體大既然知識體大齁我們要跟地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
31820.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
31839.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
跟社會大眾說明這件事情就像國土計劃法一樣啊,也是啊。國土計劃法延伸幾十年下來,到現在就算農地保護跟土地開發的這個之間,那有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
31841.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
31843.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
對,我們希望是越修越好啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
31870.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
31898.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
那所以我們是希望就是說我們財劃法因為涉及到中央跟地方的財源劃分嘛所以我們是希望能夠長治久安啦不要說一天到晚在炒這個問題所以我希望就是說相關的指標要非常的公平合理啦我們是希望這樣包括垂直的包括水平的包括事權的劃分都能夠講得更清楚大家可以接受那這樣子的話就比較好處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
31900.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
31916.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
目前現在是這樣,各縣市,我們發現就是說,大家的距離還很大啦,還蠻大的啦,那所以我們這一步要耐心地慢慢去...要何止大,往同一個政黨,除非我剛才在螢幕上看錯,欸我記得! |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
31919.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
31931.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
國民黨版本大概就是應該高達五千八百億左右嘛就是要從我們中央政府套出來的齁但是我怎麼我怎麼那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
31935.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
31952.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
上午螢幕上看到的在跟你們對話他們好像降到3200億有這回事嗎?事實上我跟委員報告就是他後來降到雖然是3200億但事實上他是漏掉一個年久稅啦所以我們重新算了是4080啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
31954.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
31980.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
所以照他的說法是多少?4080那這個案子我認為當然啦不管是在野黨啦哪一黨都一樣我們尊重但是你要把這個可不可行要跟他們溝通不是這樣嗎?尤其我們這麼多預算到地方去這當然也是好喔地方自治嘛但是你相對 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
31981.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
31987.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
他們的一些法令也要跟著去做搭配、調整嘛。比如說地方制度法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
31989.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
32017.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
對預算、責任、配置是怎麼樣他們也要開始去動起來不是這樣嗎另外很重要一點就是說這樣出去以後對中央的施政的影響這部分也一定要好好去思考啦因為4000多億下出去以後我們中央可以運用的資金大概只剩下3600多億啦如果這樣子的話這個真的是影響到中央的施政真的非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
32018.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
32028.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
所以我才說要多溝通嘛我認為你們先前不管財政部也好主計處也罷我認為溝通不足耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
32030.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
32047.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
我們再繼續努力除了我們現在就是說除了就是把相關的資料我們就放在一個專區那另外讓外界清楚了解之外另外我們也希望就是說中央跟地方之間能夠有更多的機會大家再交換意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
32048.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
32063.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
過去地方收支的短處那是我們全國都關注那說實在事實上那時候確實我們地方這個收支短處確實是值得關注理解跟同情可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
32064.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
32081.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
我如果這個數字沒錯的話101年的時候地方收支短促了589億但是從105年開始4年後我們中央補助一直增加已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
32082.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
32093.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
有剩餘41億那甚至甚至到111年啊到去年剩餘更高達648億剩餘這麼多欸我們並不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
32103.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
32117.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
主席長,你們要記得有幾個原則。第一點,中央不要抱著做之君、做之師這種過去古老的想法跟姿態啦。因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
32119.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
32132.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
即便中央權力比較大、能力比較強千萬也不要忘了大家都是從中央到地方都民選的我們一切以民意為依歸 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
32133.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
32154.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
所以跟地方應該是要多溝通要溝通像我剛剛講的啊那預算因為再來的重責大政如果這個調整那未來很多財源稅收由地方他們就直接收了所以這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
32156.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
32179.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
制度法這個要做事實的他們這一個部分要去多做理解跟調整的部分那以及第二點不要用這種對地方是施捨的心態啦我想這一次中央地方這樣有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
32182.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
32208.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
這個槓上我覺得跟這些都有關係啦也就是說如果有良好的溝通如果互相的尊重我認為不至於這件事情這麼沒得談因為財政收支劃分法在怎麼講這些稅金在怎麼分配那麼都是為全體國人所用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
32209.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
32225.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
而這跟國土計劃法它所潛在的這種衝突是不一樣的我國土計劃法那個牽涉到的是那麼重大的土地劃分的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
32226.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
32242.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
所以沒有所謂的孰是孰非誰一定對誰就一定錯那你們這個埋藏的這種衝突點那基本上是可以化解的所以我是希望說看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
32243.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
32264.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
財政部跟主計處,你們多拿出一些溝通的時間跟耐心,那多跟地方尤其多跟兩大在野黨跟他們去溝通,把可行性、不可行性都必須跟他們講清楚,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
32265.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
32279.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
但是今天這個他們一下降到3200億這個部分那你認為說這個照他的說法其實是事兼宜這個部分你們也要多溝通那也要多理解好不好是謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
32281.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
32282.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
第二輪登記第二位的蔡宜委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
32315.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
32340.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
我們是不是有請次長請次長委員好次長因為今天一整天在討論這個財政收支劃分法那我想我從早上都聽我大概只有在下午黨團協商的時候不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
32340.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
32356.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
剩下的時間我都在這邊聽。事實上每個人都有對於財政收支認為一個合理的分配,但是這個分配的一個重點還是要在於我們中央政府的立場是什麼。 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
32357.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
32371.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
所以當然你們認為說你們現在正在彙整包括有八十幾個意見然後你們正在把這些意見逐漸在收斂中但是你認為我們這樣要收斂這些意見你看起來就長久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
32374.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
32392.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
這個我跟委員報告這個我們即使這個之前那個收斂從80幾個到收斂到目前這個為止其實我們也是花很多事前的功夫事前溝通因為各縣市大家都在堅持己見 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
32392.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
32421.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
因為都是用自己的利益、自己的這個角度去提出意見。當然啦。今天我站在政府上,我也要為了政府。大家一定會為了多爭取一點地方政府,因為過去地方的稅收跟中央比起來當然是比較來源比較少。但是如果可以有機會來多爭取一些預算的話或從籌分配的話,地方政府當然會站在自己的利益,這個都不用懷疑。但是我們不要忘了, |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
32422.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
32448.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
過去也曾經有地方政府他們在使用自己的預算的時候結果就會因為浪費用到差一點地方政府入不敷出才這樣破產後來也是靠中央政府來挹注來協助他們嘛 對不對那當時大概都協助了多少協助可能還要再查一下但是當時協助最多的大概就是苗栗縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
32449.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
32455.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
這幾年事實上地方,尤其是我們在講的這幾年有超徵,然後超徵的事實上都有分配到的地方都出去嘛,都多分給他們嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
32479.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
32495.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
對,可是事實上我有幾個點啦,我一直覺得說,就是說要跟召委也是來分享,有幾個問題我們還是要做一些砂盤式的來確認。第一類就是說,我們現在要說的就是,好,中央要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
32497.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
32520.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
財源下放到地方,那是事權的部分。那我們先不要講單純的執行,我們就想縮稅機關好了。縮稅機關,比方我們想土地增值稅。來,我請教次長,現在土地增值稅是中央稅還是地方稅?地方稅。是地方稅嗎?但是如果照現在國民黨團的版本,他未來他縣市分配要從80%到100%。 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
32523.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
32546.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
就等於是全部給地方?全部嘛,好,如果它是地方稅,所以它是由地方的財稅局來做課徵等於是將來就是,將來的土地證實稅都負責那些啦,這是它的版本,好,這個以課稅機關我覺得還合理喔,這個我覺得好像合理,因為地方自己課嘛,但是有其他的就不一樣囉,好,我再舉一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
32547.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
32562.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
這一個營業稅,營業稅的話那國民黨的版本是過去地方是40%結果變成100%那營業稅是地方稅還是?現在國稅他是屬於國稅嘛所以他是屬於我們財政部國稅局來負責的嘛對不對但是未來這個100%都是屬於地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
32570.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
32579.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
那是不是事權也應該分出去?當然啦,所以說我們說錢跟權一定要…錢跟權嘛,對不對?我現在還沒有講到其他的一些業務的執行喔我剛單講單科稅機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
32583.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
32603.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
科稅機關就有必須,因為你這些稅未來都是由哪個人來做分配,它本來是還有一點叫做統籌分配,結果我們現在有一些版本的設計就是百分之百都整齊喔,地方金額、地方金額、地方金額對不對,變成科稅機關這個也產生了一個問題,我看到還有一個還有包括說這個貨物稅的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
32614.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
32633.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
貨物稅現在是中央稅?現在中央稅目前是百分之十分給地方百分之十分給地方那如果這個未來的版本可能會改變嗎?有好多版本所以現在不知道總之這第一個就是說責任、士權的一個分配是 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
32633.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
32660.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
事權的分配這個現在看起來這些版本那如果你要調整這些事權的分配你必須做哪些事你要不要去改土地增值稅法你要不要去改營業稅法要不要去修法那邊不用但是但是如果齁如果是要把那個勞健保或者榮保那些要改為地方來來這個負擔的話就會涉及到修正相關的法律的問題沒有沒有市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
32662.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
32669.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
我剛講的是說事權要移動嘛如果未來我們營業稅把它改成由地方來課徵 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
32672.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
32692.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
這是由地方來課徵,課徵還是由國稅局跟海關來課徵,只是課完以後我們全部就下法對,這樣就不對了,這樣照我的觀念就錯了,因為如果有這個版本,未來100%是屬於地方分配如果100%是地方分配的話,這是不是要回到地方去課徵? |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
32693.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
32714.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
現在課徵基本上我們現在...你們還是希望保留是由你們來做統一的課徵因為你們有統一的法定解釋所以這個是適合由中央來課徵的不適合回到地方因為很多時候還是要有一個統一解釋嘛所以這就是會涉及到的對不對問題是人家在分配的時候這不管你中央他要全拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
32715.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
32742.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
他會呈現不合理他會呈現這個不合理因為現在是40%嘛現在是40%他現在增加到100%另外有些首額稅首額稅因為他稅額比較大嘛所以像有一些就會增加到25%所以才會有一些版本會增加釋出的財源會達到7000多億的原因在這裡因為他把首額稅的那個比分出去的比重從10%拉到25%拉得很高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
32745.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
32754.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
啊這樣子當然就會嚴重衝擊中央的施政啊我看齁這一個以現在我們大概101年的時候地方政府齁他的財政狀況是最差的整個地方政府總共負債了 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
32769.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
32771.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
32788.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
32792.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
109年184億、110年189億、111年463億、112年648億市長你可以說明一下為什麼在108年後有這樣的一個翻轉地方政府的財政狀況有明顯的改善這個主要是什麼原因?最主要是因為稅收增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
32812.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
32827.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
因為我剛才講就是說我們現在分配的就是所謂稅是分配10%嘛然後在營業稅是40%嘛然後在貨物稅10%所以只要這幾個稅目增加的話就是他們的分配的就會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
32828.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
32855.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
所以他們的財政狀況就改善很多那相反的中央在同一個期間同一個期間大概就從101年到112年只有3年是有剩餘的其他的全部都是赤字所以現在如果是從目前的這樣來看的話這地方目前的財政狀況其實是比中央還要穩健目前是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
32856.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
32861.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
他請你的說法就是說事實上中央透過補助的方式給地方有大力的幫忙啊。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
32873.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
32888.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
而我們就打中央透過爭取那這一件事情上市長你的看法到底是怎樣?就是說同樣一個預算的執行由中央來執行或者是由地方他自己把錢拿回去他自己去執行你認為這個會有什麼差異嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
32891.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
32906.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
現在是這樣子,因為現在都是,它是部分出去啦,部分出去大部分都是比例比如說百分之多少百分之多少出去,那個系統現在全部都是中央在負責所以弄到地方以後,它每一個地方都要有一套系統,所以這個會很複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
32909.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
32931.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
會很麻煩,因為現在統一有國稅局、基層,那就在這個程序上、在成本上都便利很多以前再弄到各縣市,那真的複雜,以前就是各縣市那市長你們有盤整,就是說這個市權的部分,你認為你們有盤整出哪些是屬於適合下放地方? |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
32932.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
32957.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
如果他們要編了更多的一個統籌分配的預算那你現在有盤偵哪些事權可能會需要下放地方?這個可能要主席總書來回答不過我據我了解就是比如說像這個計畫型補助計畫型補助以前有中央有補助給他那現在就是因為我一般的統籌分配稅款我給他很多了嘛所以我這個計畫型補助我就不給了 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
32958.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
32981.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
另外可能就是說老健寶或者是龍寶也是一樣我就可以把它收回來就是有地方自己負擔一定要用這種調整要不然中央沒辦法可是市長我覺得你剛剛列舉啦可是我覺得說用列舉的方式是還不足你必須要去開始盤點對當然因為現在很明顯的嘛現在事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
32981.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
33001.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
不管是執政黨或者是在野黨,大家都對統籌分配,每個人都有他的看法。看起來,以召委我們現在這麼積極的態度,你應該也是會緊鑼密鼓地在排審。所以我覺得說你應該要列舉,說到底有哪些事權會隨著統籌分配的改變。 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
33002.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
33025.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
市全會也需要調整。我們這一部分我們再跟主席總署這邊來對,你們應該是要溝通然後要開始列出來然後讓大家去總之讓一些地方政府也要知道說我未來這些統籌分配哪一些工作未來可能中央就必須要就直接變成說醫療是地方要做的事情所以我是希望啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
33026.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
33053.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
昨天我們討論了很多今天從早上到現在雖然我們發現很多事情它的答案還是還是一個不清晰的狀況所以我希望說昨天我們等的就是說因為我這樣時間一直超過一直超過嘛我會覺得說尊重宗家編委員如果有來沒來的話不然我等到他來你可以登記第三輪好不好也要等宗家編來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
33057.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
33084.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
不是啦 趙薇還是說您的下一齣拍攝我們繼續討論啦好不好我們一定會充分討論不用擔心喔充分討論對對對 一定會對啦 我們就是說我們這次討論到這裡事實上可是我們還是需要我第一次講的時候我們需要很多資料耶那些資料我們到底說你們後面分配會變怎麼樣這我們都一定要搞清楚啊好不好好 趙薇我是覺得看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
33085.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
33093.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
幫你意見寫下,我們要做一個結論,會會會,好,謝謝,謝謝蔡議員好,第二輪討論齁,我們接著請登記第三號的鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌不在齁,好,我們廣泛討論第二輪討論現在告一個段落齁,那我們在場委員我們還要發表意見的第三輪討論要嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
33118.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
33133.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
蔡議員你要第三輪委員,第三輪討論?那我們就第三輪讓你...那就不討論了齁?好,那我做個結論,我會去,我會做個結論,我們做個結論,你做一下齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
33137.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
33137.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
財政部委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
33157.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
33173.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
剛剛蔡議員也說了相關的比如說第一個當然最希望你們趕快提出版本那還沒有提出版本的同時在我們下次修法以前下下週的時候你們要提出相關的這個說法到底影響了什麼事情什麼事情什麼事情寫清楚嘛讓委員了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
33174.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
33202.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
那第二個這個隨著財政收支方法的這個修訂內政部的地方制度法還有財政部的地方稅法通則還有公債法這一部分很多人都提出說應該要一併修正所以請相關的部會內政部今天也有來嘛趕快提出你們的修法版本到各個委員會去我們財政收支方法是牽頭我們往前修你們要趕快跟上這個才符合委員們的期待喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
33202.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
33231.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
那第三個就是因為剛剛早上蔡委員也有提到這個修法還適當可能牽涉到內政部、環境部以及農業部所以我們下次修法的時候我們要請這相關部會都要列席而且要請至少次長如果部長沒有辦法至少次長以上的層級要列席這是結論那在場登記所有登記委員都已經這個發言完畢還有沒有委員要提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
33232.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
33232.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
財政收支劃分法的修正草案有22案我們會擇期繼續審查那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
33261.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
33280.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
變更財政委員會第3次全體委員會會議議程我們還有另外發通知單意思就是說星期三大家就因為今天已經炒飯非常充分了也沒有委員繼續在登記我想廣泛討論就告一個段落然後星期四的時候我們就由金管會進行金管會的議程我們會再開一次再發一次通知單各部會還有沒有什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
33289.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
33292.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
財政部版本趕快再送進來你們趕快提出版本還有兩個禮拜下禮拜我們繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
33316.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
33318.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
好,謝謝。還有預備便當,大家去拿喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
33348.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
33365.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》20案：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
33369.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
33388.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
33393.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
33403.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
20案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| IVOD_ID |
16186 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16186 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-20-3 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-21T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-21T17:45:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |