| IVOD_ID |
161799 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161799 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-22 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-22T10:43:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-22T10:56:14+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9d60c0cb73c5002dddbbda46ccfe01665aad19b4ced7b4d8ba913c6d79a6ea1625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:43:15 - 10:56:14 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會（事由：「回應民意，虐童刑責法制總檢討」公聽會） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 那請吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
7.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
34.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好我想今天我們排這個我排這個公聽會主要就是社會上面孽兒的事件越來越高那我自己在擔任警察官的時候我也非常痛恨這種對於未成年的幼童或者是對於老人或是對於有一些智障 身障的人你去欺負他們尤其是手腳健全的人去欺負一些手無縛肌之類的人像這種我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
36.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
47.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
從正義的角度去思考 從法治的角度去思考對這些人都完全不值得去放過他們我們應該在法治上面能夠給他們最大的懲罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
50.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
69.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那我想我們從數據上面來看其實從19年到2023年這一段時間我們新生兒的人數一直在下降但是我們對於虐童的部分尤其是未滿3歲的幼兒的虐待這個反而數據是往上提升的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
69.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
88.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那你能想像說對一個小孩子他可能連燙是什麼都搞不清楚的情況下那你卻對他虐待你卻拿東西去燙他等等的這個作為有時候我們都難以想像那我想在座非常多人都是為人父母啊那我們小朋友小時候他打個噴嚏咳嗽個兩聲我們都擔心得要命 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
92.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
102.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那你能想像如果說今天他是在外面受到有某些人對他去施以身體上面凌虐或精神上面的凌虐你身為一個父母你是什麼樣的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
103.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
131.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那更何況我們講人不獨子其子啊每個小孩都是我們要去愛護不管他是誰的小孩那李韻大同篇就跟我們講過這句話所以我們對於每一個小孩不管他是誰的小孩我們都要盡全力去保護他我想這是我們每一個身為成年人我們的義務不管男女不管你今天的想法國籍黨派等等的我們就是要保護這些未成年人更何況啊以我自己第一線的司法實務經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
133.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
161.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
黑數一定更多有更多的小朋友他不知道怎麼樣去表達或是很多父母他不知道怎麼樣去求爭取這些救援所以有更多的犯罪黑數我們沒看到那在現有已經曝光的事情來看就有這麼多的案子這麼多讓我們那種不忍心再看下去的事情所以我想說我們大家都身為爸爸媽媽我們很能夠知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
163.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
189.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
愛護小孩子的那種感覺很多時候我們甚至你有我看到小孩子發燒在那邊很難過一直在哭我都希望去承擔他的這個痛苦所以我常跟很多人講我說如果我有99條命的話我會願意為我兒子死100次這是每一個父母對小孩子的感覺那所以我覺得今天我在社會上面我們更要去保護這些小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
190.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
218.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那我想這次有關虐童案件的修法的連署那社會上面有13萬人那當然我個人是這樣子我覺得任何公共議題本來就會有正反不同的想法各種公共議題都是如此所以當各種公共議題大家提出來的時候是值得討論的尤其是專業的機關譬如說法務部 譬如說司法院像剛剛黃國昌委員說的絕對不能有專業的傲慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
而是你必須停下腳步來聽聽人民的聲音那多溝通就我剛剛說的公共政策一定是有贊成有反對那這時候就是坐下來好好的溝通去找出一個平衡點或是最大的公約數那這時候我們就可以來去進行相關的修法而不是墨守成規而不是像法務部一開始就是拒絕跟外界溝通當然我知道後來部長有出來緩暇有出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
277.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
他會再研議嘛那部長當然後來有做這樣的想法但是一開始的那個的反應其實是讓非常多的社會團體以及非常多的父母很不滿無法接受我想還是要麻煩法務部以及司法院能夠拜託知道這個點不能有專業的傲慢真的要聽聽外界在想什麼更何況法律法律是解決社會問題的一個東西嘛是我們人類生存在這個社會上面大家遵守的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
291.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以今天不要拿法律的設計怎麼樣來強制要求人民你只能聽我們專業法律者對於法律的解釋我覺得這是不對的 絕對是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
320.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我還是在這邊以民意代表的身份我還是希望喊話我們的政府機關在面對這種極端惡行的情況下真的要給社會一個回應因為司法已經是最後一道防線了我不可能要求每個人都有高尚的道德但是我至少可以卑微的要求大家守法吧至少可以卑微要求大家守法 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
322.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
352.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那訂出一個對於未成年人一些因誘而能夠給他們保障的法律這不就是我們的責任嗎那如果說現在的政府一直在那邊說這個框架之下認為說這虐童虐待致死後面那個致死是過失致死他不是有殺人的故意你一直存在這個框架之下那你怎麼跟人民去溝通更何況我國還有刑法328條第三項的規範不是毫無這樣子的司法設計的例子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
353.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我還是蠻希望說政府不要站在人民的對立面你聽聽人民在想什麼再怎麼樣人民是最大我們是民主國家所以請法務部 請司法院還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
370.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
注意這個點那對於這次的修法 我覺得我有幾個角度 我想提供來給大家參考我覺得第一個就是說 我剛提到 一再三提到的這個社會共識 它會隨著時間在變化請大家一定要注意 所有的東西不是一成不變所有的法制 也都是在看 怎麼樣去適合這個社會上面的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
421.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個非常的重要那第二個呢我要提到的就是我剛剛講了刑法328條第三項已經有財產犯罪的強盜致死的時候的死刑規範並不是我國的法治毫無這樣子的規定所以當有這樣子的規範存在的時候然後你又跟我講說現行法治不行比例原則不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
423.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
439.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那再怎麼樣寧願他還是對於生命身體法義耶那你財產法義都可以做這樣的規範了那為什麼保護密度要更高的生命身體法義你卻認為不需要這樣規範我覺得這個就完全不合理這也不是法律的基本概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
440.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
469.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那我覺得很多時候我們看犯罪的情節輕重也不是說只看主觀範囲啦你也要看被害者他們的狀況是怎麼樣小朋友他毫無反擊之力啊他甚至連自己被凌虐被侵害他都搞不清楚他以為這就是人生因為他才小他什麼都不懂所以更需要我們知道我們懂的人下去用力的保護他那剛剛其實理事長以及那個劉教授教育理事長劉教授都有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
470.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
495.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
未必故意這個概念我也是想說因為畢竟我們現在已經是廢止那個判例的制度了嘛那我們都是尊重每一個個案法官檢察官的獨立判斷但是至少在教育訓練的時候在教育訓練的時候是不是可以把這個概念能夠告訴全國的法官檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
496.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
523.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
很多時候是不是他可能他是符合未必故意的這個邏輯而不是一律就是凌虐致死因為你今天跟一般我們刑法上面傷害致死有一點不太一樣很多時候你對成年人的傷害這個成年人他已經是一個發育完全身體的那個那個抵抗力等等的都是發育完全的他跟一個小朋友不一樣啊小朋友甚至連自己受傷要打電話叫救護車求救他也不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
524.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
552.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那這個時候是不是你有可以去思考到未必故意的這個概念而選擇的是271條所以這個是值得我們去思考的一個點但是因為我們不可能干涉個案所以這個可以落實在日常的教育訓練裡面再告訴法官檢察官你在審理案件的時候其實你還有另外一個思考的模式因為未必故意它是我國的法律制度的一部分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
552.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
566.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
它是我國存在的東西所考的過司法官考試人他一定懂我在講什麼那師父可以在教育訓練裡面放入這個概念他今天他等同於殺人罪了喔他不是一個凌虐後的過失致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
568.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
585.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以這兩個東西我想說還是必須要呼籲我們的政府機關能夠思考一下這個地方因為很多時候你要正視人民的聲音你要換位去思考而不是很多事情你造成民怨的一直問題很多了然後才來這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
587.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
一堆麻煩那我也蠻認同剛剛那個蔡卓恩檢察官他所提到的一個點也是我們現在社會一直迴避的一個點就是我們忘記告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
598.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
623.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
為什麼 為什麼 像譬如說為什麼我這次會提出一個反對那個死刑一字決的這個公投為什麼會提出這個 其實就是因為那個一字決有問題嘛那像剛剛蔡主任檢察官他有提到一個點就是六個國民法官加兩個專業法官大家認為要判死刑結果會被一個專業法官認為不要判死刑而全盤推翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
624.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
648.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那這個也是我國現行制度的一個大問題那如果這樣子下去那也會像剛剛有專家學者說會不會我們立了一個法律一個死刑在那裡但是實務上面卻完全無法適用這個將來有可能會發生完全不可能有這樣的死刑判決的結果出現我想這個都是我們要去注意到的啦更何況廢死這個概念除了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
650.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
675.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那個執政黨黨綱之外他常也引用兩公約但兩公約對於這個何謂最嚴重之罪卻到現在也都沒有一個明確的說法所以我想我們點出了這些問題不管怎麼樣我覺得最終我的目的還是一個不管今天你的國籍為何你的性別為何你的政治傾向為何保護幼童 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
677.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
705.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是我們的最大公約數一定我們要盡全力去做到所以當一個政府啊我們這個政府的社會福利制度等等無法保障未成年的小朋友這些幼童無端被殺死的時候你至少要確保這些行為人在做完這些壞事之後政府司法制度有辦法對他是一個相當的刑度例如終身監禁或死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
706.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
735.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我覺得這個是有它存在的必要性所以今天我們還開這個公聽會我覺得這個公聽會也是我一直以來我從當立法委員以來我一直希望的就是保障弱勢因為我其實我很多次我公開講我說李韻大同篇的那幾句話影響我這輩子非常深我覺得啊你一定要做到勞有所終壯有所用幼有所長關寡孤獨廢棄者皆有所養這個東西就是老中青 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
737.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
749.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
小孩子保護他讓他平安長大青壯年人讓他有工作老人讓他能夠安享晚年社會弱勢殘疾者我們要讓他能夠有好的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
750.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
777.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
幾千年前的人就告訴我們這個為什麼我們今天還做不到所以我一直很堅持在修法上面以及我做任何事情上面一定要圍繞著這個邏輯去轉所以我才會今天安排這個公聽會不然在很多法律制度都還需要修正的時候我們還是希望這個公聽會非常的重要要為小朋友發聲要為社會團體發聲這是我一直以來我的想法好 謝謝各位 |