IVOD_ID |
161788 |
IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161788 |
日期 |
2025-05-22 |
影片種類 |
Clip |
開始時間 |
2025-05-22T09:36:27+08:00 |
結束時間 |
2025-05-22T09:53:06+08:00 |
影片長度 |
00:16:39 |
支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f99a8107718179c656dbbda46ccfe01665bea248a27804db818a87edb53361b94a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
委員發言時間 |
09:36:27 - 09:53:06 |
會議時間 |
2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會(事由:「回應民意,虐童刑責法制總檢討」公聽會) |
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謝謝主席 在開始發言之前我想要請教主席一件事情今天這麼多的學者專家出席甚至我剛剛在下面聽到許總召集人的發言我其實感觸非常的深 |
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剛出來啊衛福部啊接這麼多人民手寫陳情書的我發現既不是部長也不是次長今天衛福部是沒有把這個公定會當回事嗎部長跟次長有什麼更重要的事情就請假跟黃永明說明一下因為次長他現在人在國外所以他沒有辦法過來 |
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只有一個次長所有的次長都在國外現在衛福部是只有一個次長所有的次長都在國外是不是那其他的次長呢一個人在國外其他都不用來是這樣嗎你們衛福部要回去看一看你們今天提出來的報告啊像話嗎短短的兩頁交差了事啊 |
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這麼重要的事情多少人站上街頭啊你們提兩頁的報告出來敷衍大家主席準價我尊重但我希望衛福部的代表把我今天的意見帶回去你們衛福部告訴邱太元部長這麼重要的事情他自己不來已經很誇張了 |
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連次長都請假虧你們還是什麼主管機關啊這些媽媽看了不會心寒嗎現在是衛福部每個官威都很大嗎 |
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不好意思喔主席因為我尊重你給他們準價但我覺得作為一個立法委員我該表達的立場我一定要表達你們今天啊衛福部如果事前的預防做得好我們有必要坐在這邊啊討論加重刑罰的事情嗎你們自己都不會汗顏不會覺得丟臉 |
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還散漫連次長都不來拜託衛福部的代表把我今天強烈的意見回去告訴邱太元部長我下次到衛環委員會的時候我會當面質詢他這件事情好 謝謝主席 |
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非常感謝今天所有的學者專家針對這份重要的議題提出寶貴的意見我更感謝這麼多的民間團體犧牲自己的時間在公寓的時候不管是站上街頭還是來到立法院發出人民的心聲我自己是一個法律人 |
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但是我們自己都會時常的反省法律人是不是有的時候有過度專業的傲慢而忘了去聆聽第一線基層人民的心聲每一天這麼多年輕的朋友在凱凱安開庭的時候齊聚在台北地方法院外面發出人民的訴求跟怒吼 |
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當天也有立法委員到台北地方法院外去聲援我相信我也支持這個是公民社會監督我們司法權運作非常健康的一個意見表達的形式而且也是必要的 |
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這個案件讓我們重新開啟了對於很多事情深切的反省跟思考為什麼這樣子說呢我也要特別感謝昭偉今天召開這一場公定會 |
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因為每一次我們在討論刑度的時候我最常看見法務部也好司法院也好所提出來的書面報告會挑其中一兩個罪名說這樣子不符合罪責的相當性在法定刑的權衡上面是失衡我必須要說 |
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從我們過去刑法到今天各式各樣特別法的修正的確裡面存在的在各個法條彼此之間的法定型的輕重權衡有的時候從純法律的觀點難以解釋但 |
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這個是我們在檢討刑度的時候我們的法務部從來就沒有通盤的就刑法分責的規定是不是有重新檢討的必要交出完整的報告 |
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也就是說當立法者要回應民意要修改法律針對特定罪名去調整刑度的時候我們法務部慣常的思考模式就是從刑法分則裡面挑起他的條文說你動了這一個那另外的條文法定刑的權衡就會相似衡 |
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如果這個是原因的話請法務部的次長今天帶回去請法務部認真地檢討我們針對刑法分責的法定刑有沒有重新全盤調整的必要我為什麼這樣子說呢 |
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我們目前刑法328條在暴力的財產犯罪的時候第三項規定暴力財產犯罪我們第一項是五年以上有期徒刑再往下是犯強盜罪因而致人於死處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑犯暴力的財產法益侵害的犯罪如果致人於死可以處死刑 |
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那但是每一次我們碰到286條的時候法務部永遠的意見都是如果凌虐兒童致死的話如果給他死刑權衡上面會輕重失衡永遠的理由通通都是這個樣子 |
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但是我們看328條跟286條彼此之間的比較就可以清楚的看得出來如果財產侵害財產法律的犯罪透過暴力行為侵害財產法律的犯罪因而致人於死都可以處死刑為什麼 輪孽兒童甚至是一定歲數以下不管是七歲以下 五歲以下 三歲以下完全沒有自衛能力的人 |
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自而於死 處法定刑到死刑法務部為什麼一直都在反對為什麼一直都在反對那當然我必須要說的是328條我也看過學者有提出批判但是學者的批判我們立法者都會虛心的傾聽但是我們更關心的是怎麼樣去回應人民的期待 |
transcript.whisperx[20].start |
488.977 |
transcript.whisperx[20].end |
507.267 |
transcript.whisperx[20].text |
當我去思考怎麼去回應人民期待的時候我們馬上就會發現立法者現在面對的困難以及我們可不可以跨越的鴻溝因為刑法328條第三項這一個加重結果犯的處死刑依照 |
transcript.whisperx[21].start |
508.359 |
transcript.whisperx[21].end |
530.982 |
transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們憲法法庭去年的判決必須要限於有直接蓋瓜或者是折衣的殺人故意才可以處這個法定刑也就是回到了當我們的憲法法庭它不當的介入了我們立法形成的空間對於死刑科處難以跨越的障礙的時候 |
transcript.whisperx[22].start |
532.386 |
transcript.whisperx[22].end |
548.691 |
transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們必須要嚴肅的面對我們在法定型的調整上立法者還有多少空間在什麼樣子的程度範圍內可以去做調整如果按照我們憲法法庭的要求因為 |
transcript.whisperx[23].start |
549.551 |
transcript.whisperx[23].end |
564.028 |
transcript.whisperx[23].text |
公正公約的確有說施以死刑必須要the most serious crime也就是最嚴重的罪但是我們大法官又往前更跨了一步不僅僅是最嚴重的罪還要犯罪情節最嚴重 |
transcript.whisperx[24].start |
565.109 |
transcript.whisperx[24].end |
579.748 |
transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我在這裡質詢了好幾次問什麼叫做犯罪情節最嚴重要如何判定不管是法務部的代表還是司法院的代表到目前為止沒有辦法提出一個清楚的準據但是 |
transcript.whisperx[25].start |
580.769 |
transcript.whisperx[25].end |
602.554 |
transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們面臨的困難是一模一樣的當我們的大法官針對這件事情甚至針對我們現在刑法裡面有科死刑的法定刑到底要限縮到什麼樣的程度才可以科處手直接都伸進了立法形成的範圍的時候我們接下來再有關於虐童致死 |
transcript.whisperx[26].start |
603.214 |
transcript.whisperx[26].end |
624.877 |
transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們的立法者還存在多少的空間還存在多少的空間可以滿足我們的大法官他們自居為立法者所創設的要件這個是我們接下來所要面對的第一個問題那第二個問題我也要呼應有很多民間團體所提出來的這早就不是新鮮事了 |
transcript.whisperx[27].start |
625.632 |
transcript.whisperx[27].end |
645.886 |
transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我國什麼時候有無期徒刑無期徒刑只活在六法全書裡無期徒刑從來沒有落實在具體的實踐當中在具體的實踐當中即使是殺人罪即使是黑幫老大的殺人罪判了無期徒刑關十八年 |
transcript.whisperx[28].start |
646.909 |
transcript.whisperx[28].end |
673.83 |
transcript.whisperx[28].text |
假釋處遇關18年假釋處遇那大家會覺得很奇怪我國刑法規定不是要規定要關滿25年無期徒刑才可以假釋嗎那是因為我們目前刑法整個在刑法上面的處遇對於加害人對於受刑人有所謂的雙重憂鬱什麼叫雙重憂鬱第一個在監鎖的時候就透過所謂的累進處遇的 |
transcript.whisperx[29].start |
675.851 |
transcript.whisperx[29].end |
704.698 |
transcript.whisperx[29].text |
制度讓他關一個月有的可以抵兩天有的可以抵四天有的可以抵六天如果到外議監去做爽勞可以關一天算兩天所以一般的人民很難理解明明不是要一半才可以假育假釋明明不是無期一突襲要過25年才假釋怎麼我們看到這麼多重大的犯罪類型重大的犯罪加害人的時候常常關不到一半就出來了 |
transcript.whisperx[30].start |
705.718 |
transcript.whisperx[30].end |
729.956 |
transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這一種雙重憂鬱的這一種雙重憂鬱我們目前刑事司法的設計你要不然就有假釋我透過假釋的制度鼓勵你改過向善可以早一點出來但是我有門檻我要不然就透過累進處慾的制度透過累進處慾在裡面慢慢的縮短你的刑期但是我們的刑事司法是這兩個制度都有 |
transcript.whisperx[31].start |
730.797 |
transcript.whisperx[31].end |
755.681 |
transcript.whisperx[31].text |
既有什麼 既有縮短刑期的規定又有什麼 又有假釋的規定當這兩個加起來了以後就是我們現在人民看到為什麼常常關不到一半啊 就出來這件事情 在2017年私改國是會議的時候有沒有提出來討論過 有提出來討論過結論有沒有改革的必要 有改革的必要但是我必須要沉痛的說啊 |
transcript.whisperx[32].start |
756.041 |
transcript.whisperx[32].end |
783.201 |
transcript.whisperx[32].text |
毫不令人意外的2017年的史改國式會議不僅僅是林玉秀老師所講的天燈會議放天燈大會更離譜的事情是做成的決議根本沒有在執行浪費納稅人的錢開大拜拜的會議結果會議有結論到現在2025年8年過去了法務部司法院難辭其咎難辭其咎 |
transcript.whisperx[33].start |
786.192 |
transcript.whisperx[33].end |
810.938 |
transcript.whisperx[33].text |
把司改國事會議當成廢紙根本沒有認真的在面對上面的問題那因此當我們的法務部開始跟大家講說在我們的大法官對於死刑的施加施加了難以跨越的鴻溝以後整個社會在討論無期徒刑不可以假設的無期徒刑應不應該是選項法務部說他們贊成應該是選項去年 |
transcript.whisperx[34].start |
816.67 |
transcript.whisperx[34].end |
842.152 |
transcript.whisperx[34].text |
透過媒體發新聞稿說年底要完成 要提出現在已經2025年的5月了請問法務部東西在哪裡法務部部長給我的回應是說行政院還在研議我必須要老實跟大家報告我現在是只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕我只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕因為崔少哲保護法 法務部啊 |
transcript.whisperx[35].start |
842.915 |
transcript.whisperx[35].end |
854.566 |
transcript.whisperx[35].text |
研議了八年提不出草案棄保潛逃罪研議了八年提不出草案不法關說罪研議了八年還是提不出草案 |
transcript.whisperx[36].start |
856.124 |
transcript.whisperx[36].end |
882.466 |
transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我只要聽到法務部或行政院的官員說他們還在研議我聽了就害怕了所以我懇請召委我肯定召委排這個公聽會但是法務部的官員可以混可以繼續研議民間社會不能等我們社會法治委員會在履行我們立法委員職責的時候該排案就排案繼續往前推進 |
transcript.whisperx[37].start |
883.837 |
transcript.whisperx[37].end |
909.52 |
transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我受不了等法務部跟行政院的研議啊我們今天難道要這邊站在這邊告訴人民說讓我們的法務部跟行政院再研議八年啊給他們研議八年以後再來處理啊絕對不接受最後一點寶貴的意見啊犯罪被害人的訴訟參與權我曾經當過犯罪被害人的義務辯護人我在法庭上面實際參與了犯罪被害人的法庭活動 |
transcript.whisperx[38].start |
911.428 |
transcript.whisperx[38].end |
938.137 |
transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們說強化犯罪被害人訴訟上的地位跟國際接軌那根本是騙人的做半套林玉雄老師的書就寫得很清楚2019年那個時候要求要強化的時候立法理由寫得很漂亮說跟國際接軌那實際上是什麼實際上面是言過其實人為改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場 |
transcript.whisperx[39].start |
939.534 |
transcript.whisperx[39].end |
959.683 |
transcript.whisperx[39].text |
沒有改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場犯罪被害人在刑事訴訟程序上面沒有被視為程序主體沒有辦法對於證人對質詢問沒有辦法對於上訴與否有更大的決定權這個是早就浮在檯面上面的問題啦 |
transcript.whisperx[40].start |
961.735 |
transcript.whisperx[40].end |
979.846 |
transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我希望司法院也好法務部也好不要一天到晚做大內宣什麼跟國際接軌你到底在講什麼東西啊聽不懂啊明明只有做半套最重要的東西都沒有然後在文書上面發新聞稿跟台灣人民說跟國際接軌 |
transcript.whisperx[41].start |
981.704 |
transcript.whisperx[41].end |
995.138 |
transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我最後再次感謝所有學者專家跟民間團體的代表給我們的寶貴意見有的時候我們因為必須要跑來跑去未必可以全程聆聽但是各位寶貴的意見都會在立法院公報留下寶貴的紀錄謝謝大家 謝謝 |