| 影片長度 |
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| 委員名稱 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1730.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1738.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會出席委員10人與主法定人數好我們開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1740.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1765.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年4月9日星期三上午9時至12時3分地點紅樓山明義會議室出席為盧美琳等11人聶喜委員蔓玉珍等14人聶喜人員國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員人德發及所屬人員主席林昭吉委員議軍報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1768.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1779.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
2.邀請國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴格發報告業務概況．並備質詢。．國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴格發報告．委員盧美玲等15人質詢．均由國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴格發．服務照顧處處長曹東發．救養養護處處長周新國．臺北榮民總醫院院長陳威明及御理分院院長吳宗明等即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1795.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1824.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢討結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限者從其所定三委員蔓玉珍及邱志偉等二人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢好請問在場委員對上一次會議議事有沒有遺漏錯誤或需要更正的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1825.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1830.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
報告事項邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告．並備質詢。．宣布完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1846.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1860.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們今天要進行的是國安局的工作業務報告裡面包含機密跟公開的部分那本席先介紹在場的委員我們永遠on time的陳永康委員然後羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1866.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1887.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
本委員會的新同學再補充說明一下根據情報法還有我們委員會在前幾屆通過的決議有關情報工作人員基於保護跟保密跟國家利益所以我們通常是主 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1887.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1909.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
關管的名字會揭露相關業務的主管就不像其他部會到組長到什麼名字都會揭露這是基於法律跟國家利益的要求好我們今天列席的官員有國家安全局局長蔡明彥國防部縣指部指揮官鄭真祥資通電軍指揮官簡華慶 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1918.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1944.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
政治專案局局長陳玉玲電展室主任郭志國軍情局的部分楊敬澀中將今天有重要公務他事前已經跟本席請假也已獲准我們今天由軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1945.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1950.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
軍安總隊總隊長汪世偉海委會海巡署署長張忠榮巡防組組長廖雲紅情報組代理組長吳信芬特別行動支援中心主任林天佑 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1977.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2000.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
內政部警政署署長張榮鑫行事警察局局長周祐偉保安組組長林溫柔防治組組長陳百祿內政部移民署署長鍾景坤 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2004.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2024.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
國際及執法事務組組長張文秀移民署入出國事務組組長林怡俊法務部調查局局長陳百利國家安全維護處處長葉立欽國內安全調查處處長陳宇源 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2033.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2059.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
保防處處長許明佑支通安全處副處長鄭建行好今天是我們國安局依我們國家情報法率領所有情報情緒單位首長出席工作業務報告那本日邀請國安局局長率領相關情報機關首長提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2061.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2088.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告．並備質詢報告區分為公開及機密兩個部分先公開後機密那報告後接續詢答詢答先秘密後公開那今天沒有人登記機密詢答但是因為有機密公開共用時間所以我們要先宣告我們質詢的時間本會委員8加2分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2091.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2109.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
非本會委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請在10點半之前提出11點左右本席會試詢答的情形進行處理現在我們請國安局局長蔡局長上台就公開部分進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2121.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2145.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好謝謝主席主席各位委員各位女士各位先生那今天非常榮幸協同我們國安團隊的首長以及本局相關幹部跟委員會來提報下半年國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告以下僅就國家安全情勢分析以及未來的工作重點方向跟各位委員進行提報首先在國家安全情勢分析的部分第一區域戰事陷入長期的消耗歐日戰爭到現在已經有兩年的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2147.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2171.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
雖然烏軍攻奪了俄國部分的領土但是沒有辦法全面的來牽制俄軍在烏東的一個攻勢所以雙方到目前沒有看到任何的停戰的跡象那可能雙方也都在準備因應長期的消耗戰爭那另外在以哈戰事的部分到現在已經屆滿了一年那國際社會雖然積極的來協調停火的協議但是在過程當中以色列持續的跟黎巴嫩的爭主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2171.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2192.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
﹚議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2192.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2196.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
在歐中關係的部分可以看到雙方的經貿摩擦不斷的升高特別是歐盟決定對中共的電動車來加徵反補貼的關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2217.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2245.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
為了能夠來加強對美歐的分化的工作也不斷地來加大誘拉歐盟的成員以及極右力的勢力希望能夠來影響美歐以及歐盟內部團結抗中的一個立場中共加強侵略南方國家中共利用各種的主場外交跟多邊的機制強化跟全球南方國家的關係以便來後質跟美國以及其他西方國家競逐的一個籌碼美國、歐洲跟日本還有印度也都警覺到 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2245.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2245.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第4 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2261.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2282.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
中共內部的社經問題升高矛盾難減中共為了緩解信心的危機在7月的時候召開了20屆三中的全會也通過了習近平第二份的改革文件但是中共內部我們可以看到青年的失業率居高不下同時房地產的景氣還是非常的低迷造成民眾擔憂到中共未來的經濟的前景 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2283.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2304.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們看到的是悲觀的情緒不斷的在升高當中第5是中共的山海擴權引發了國際的反制習近平在今年以來要求共軍在台海東海以及南海能夠來形塑強勢維權的一個立場在台海方面我們看到共軍整屆沿海的機場並且在今年的5月以及今年的10月分別來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2306.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2334.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
舉行所謂的聯合力艦A跟聯合力艦B的演習來展現他們對外軍事的威懾力在東海的部分我們也看到中共的偵察機首次侵入到日本的領空另外遼寧航艦的編隊也穿越到日本的羽西水大加強共軍在第一島鏈相關的戰場的經營在南海部分我們也看到中共對於菲律賓的運輸機海警船進行強勢的維權也增加了情勢誤判的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2335.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2351.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第2中共持續的對台灣來進行複合式的脅迫在軍事上我們看到520之後中共舉行聯合立建2024A跟B的軍演增強對台的文攻武嚇在經貿上也取消了各種的關稅減讓的項目在外交上則擴大宣傳國際一中的論述試圖來壓縮我國的國際空間在法律上 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2357.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2361.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在統戰上中共持續的來邀訪我們的基層青年到對岸來訪問推動各種的地方的交流包括中共的意識形態來混淆國人的認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2376.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2401.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
中共也持續擴大對我們的網路威脅還有偵訊的操作那中共透過各種的網路的侵害活動來鎖定我們的政府機關高科技園區以及能源交通等等民生相關的領域進行侵害竊密或是癱瘓破壞對我們的網路安全形成非常大的一個挑戰在偵訊操作的部分我們看到中共加強運用網路的水軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2401.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2431.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一場帳號跟AI的技術對我們來遂行認知作戰炒作證訊加深政府民眾對於政府的不滿的情緒第二大部分是有關於未來的工作的重點以下提報幾個主要的努力的方向第一我們會廣拓情報收眼的量能機先應處國際的變局那本局會持續的來強化跟各個我們國內的國安團隊還有國際的友方勤嚴的交流協助我們政府可來應處各種的國內跟國外的安全威脅還有挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2432.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2448.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第二我們會持續的來強化不收的能量即使的來統合反制跟應處那本局會結合到我們國際合作友方工作優勢還有能量那來加強收嚴中共黨政軍重要決策以及對我的謀略威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2451.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2479.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第3我們會支援各種的國安案件的徵處注入專案工作部署那本局會加強來支援各類國安案件事證的收整跟查查以便來防範中共滲透破壞跟確保我們國內的社會的安定第4我們會持續的來加強治安的防護確保侵傳鏈路的安全那本局會積極的來掌搜中共實體跟虛擬空間威脅的樣態確保政府機關侵傳作業的安全環境第5我們會後職 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2481.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2505.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
徵訊防制的量能維護輿論場域的純淨本局會持續的來統合我們的國安單位針對徵訊預警的情資採取急報、急搜的原則提供權責單位來參考應處最後結語面對國內外安全情勢快速的變化國安團隊會靈活的來調整我們的情搜部署以機先掌握戰略預警情資的原則加強我們的國際情報合作及時 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2506.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2516.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
來建立我們的國際戰略情報合作網．以便來守護我們的國家安全還有利益以上的報告也敬請委員會各位委員先進 持續給我們指導支持跟協助謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2522.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2539.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
公開報告結束接下來我們要進行秘密會議進行機密報告我們要進行清場請各位先不要動聽我說因為今天出席人數比較多清場的部分我們待會是從前門出去後門回來將會比較順暢上一次因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2542.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2552.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個有人從後門出後門進就整個塞在那裡我再講一次我們今天人數比較多待會各位移動的時候請求前門出場參與秘密會議人員由後門經過偵測檢查後進入這樣動線會比較順現在請醫生員清場沒有機密診的人就可以請他離席 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3737.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3763.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好,我們現在進行登記公開質詢委員開始詢答首先請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席,有請國安局蔡局長來,局長請好,謝謝主席,羅委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3765.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3784.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
局長中國在這個10月14號禮拜一的時候舉行了聯合歷屆2024B的軍演那中國說他這個是因為針對賴清德總統的雙十演說而來那我記得在上個會期的時候本席跟蔡局長其實我們有討論到這個2024這一個一系列的這個軍演的這個活動所以其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3791.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3810.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
其實之前在520的時候有2024A那再來現在雙十有2024B我其實在想未來可能還有CDE一系列的這個軍演的這個活動也就是說這本來就是他們早就已經規劃好的這個軍演只是說就看看說在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3811.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3824.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
有哪一個總統也好或是政治人物也好講了那些他們不中聽的一些話他就來軍演一次其實這本來就是他們規劃當中的軍演這部分我們其實在四個會期就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3829.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3841.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
討論過只是說他什麼時候要來軍演好那再來那這軍演呢13個小時就結束了那甚至地方上有一些婆婆媽媽還說我的東西都還沒看好我財還沒看好肝臟還沒看好都已經結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3846.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3863.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
甚至還有人在想說就這樣其實我們覺得這是一個很不好的一個現象你看像我這個剪刀上面有一個圖我本來剛開始看到這個圖的時候我一直以為這是網友哭笑出來的圖雖然沒有想到是中國海警 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3864.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3877.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他們繪製出來的就說我們這包圍是用這個愛心海派的甜心來包圍台灣巡航就是愛你的這個形狀這個是鬆懈台灣民眾的心嗎這個部分這麼嚴肅的經驗可以弄出這樣子的一個圖局長您怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3881.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3898.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這部分也跟委員做了報告這一次中共軍演的一個特色我剛在進來會場之前也跟各位媒體朋友做說明了他的演習時間是比較短的畫社的演習的區域也比較小但是他動員的兵力特別在空中兵力動員的強度有比較高一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3900.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3925.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
在整個演習過程當中我們除了去注意中共的軍事動態以外也花很多時間在映出各種的爭議訊息包括網路上流傳的各種的圖卡或是錯誤的資訊或是影音的這種散布那我們剛剛所提到的就是中共的海警也在演習過程當中有釋放這樣的訊息認為說這是一個愛的擁抱那是在關心台灣但事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3925.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3949.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在演習過程當中中共除了派出有那個海上的海軍的船艦以外也派出海警船這次有16艘的海警船加上一艘的海巡船跟一艘的海調船總共18艘那在台海周邊沒有進入到我們24海里的以外的水域在那邊巡弋那所以海警才會有這樣的一個圖卡認為說他們有在周邊來進行相關的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3951.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3980.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
可是他們這種表現的這個表示的這個方式其實是會真的是會鬆懈國人的這個警戒心因為大家覺得說也沒什麼嘛像剛剛局長所提到的他的部署啊等等國人好像對這個好像沒有那麼的在意然後只知道說那天早上可能就是有一個軍演那到了傍晚6點好像下班式的就結束了大家就會認為說就沒有什麼樣會不會變成說以後會變成有一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3985.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3998.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為我們有看到這個吳俄戰爭開戰以前俄羅斯也是一樣他用軍演的方式然後就說他們要做軍演然後做了很多的部署突然間哪一天就宣戰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3999.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
4027.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們會不會面臨這種局面因為現在國人看起來好像對這個軍演是沒有感覺的這其實是一個非常可怕的一個心態事實上我們確實要謝謝委員的提醒那因為對於中共對台的一個脅迫我們一定要料底寵寬那除了看這個軍演從兩岸關係的角度來看以外有另外一個更重要的角度是中共的區域軍事戰略因為中共他有整體性希望變成是區域強權的一個政治目標要去追求 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
4028.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
4028.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
中共的航母 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
4043.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
4059.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
蔡明彥的編隊也進入到第一次進入到日本的雨溪水域來展示他的軍威南海部分跟越南跟菲律賓的摩擦也不斷地在升高台海部分就像委員剛一開始所提到的運用各種的理由把常態性的軍演再包裝再擴大來對台灣施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
4060.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
4089.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他的理由有可能是我們國內相關政情發展的動態也有可能是外國對台灣表達高度的支持或來訪或是通過法案那中共也會動用這種軍演來對台灣施壓那找各種理由來進行練兵練兵過程當中他們也在檢視各種的武力擴張跟犯台的預案以便作為後續修正相關方案的一個參儲所以我覺得確實我們對這樣的一個共軍常態性的軍演絕對不能夠掉以輕心要持續的來命中 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
4091.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
4118.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
除了對這個軍演不能夠掉以輕心之外我們也怕哪一天是擦槍走火那再來更加需要我們國人更加注意的就是所謂的深層式的這個AI但今年的8月份澳洲有一個網路安全公司Cyber CX他有發表了一個報告就是說他們發現了跟中國有關的一個虛擬的這個網站他大概有500 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
4119.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
4146.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
五千到八千個的虛假帳號組成了一個資訊站的網絡請問國安局對這個訊息有沒有掌握有 這個訊息有沒有掌握我們特別提到這家公司應該是在今年的年初成立的我們注意到大概在今年的七月份它就開始很積極地在網絡上透過各種虛擬帳號來進行各種AI生成的假訊息的內容的散佈或是影音的散佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
4147.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
4167.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
國外也有一些機構已經資安公司的機構已經注意到這個趨勢所以才會對外的釋放這個訊息那對於這種網路上中共所進行的這種認知作戰只要有這樣的訊息來源的話我們都會進行必要的來源的查找那目前為止有很多查找到的IP都是位在台灣境外 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
4168.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
4195.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以這也是我們在查處上會比較困難的地方不過也謝謝委員讓我們用這個機會來跟國人做個說明知道在辨識這種錯假訊息的過程當中應該要更慎重不要隨便來接收這些錯誤的訊息是 局長我也請教一下像過去我們對虛假訊息我們都是用移組的方式像這種AI機器人資訊戰網絡我們要如何去做反制我們有沒有能力去做反制有 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
4195.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
4209.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我大概有兩個主要的做法一個部分是剛剛所提到的就是把它揭露出來那畢竟它主要想要影響的受眾就是我們一般的民眾那假如民眾的媒體試圖能力能夠提升的話自然就不會比較受到這些錯假訊息的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
4210.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
4230.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
第二部分呢在針對這些錯假訊息的部分那我們剛才提到了怎麼樣去來查找他的相關的一個散佈的一個來源那假如說他是用AI生成的相關的錯假訊息或影音的話我們也會跟社群媒體的營運的公司來跟他做檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
4231.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4257.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那因為就營運公司他們有一些網路規範的一些規定那我們來證明說他是所謂錯假訊息有違法的行為或是他是用AI生成的話那這個很大部分都會違反相關那個社群媒體經營的規則而會把它下架下來所以我們特別在像今年剛提到二合一大選以及到現在的期間已經做過非常非常多這樣的檢舉來下架這些有問題的影音 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4261.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4283.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
主席再給我一分鐘剛剛我們局長所提到的我們都是說經過散佈這些深層式AI過去都是散佈虛假的訊息或是透過這個深微deepfake然後來達到這個認知作戰跟界限的這個目的可是有沒有想過這些深層式的AI可能會對於我國的基礎建設造成非常嚴重的這個破壞有沒有想到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4287.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4296.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
有,因為AI有說它可以去自動生成一些病毒的程式對,它會自動升級、自動化的編寫這個程式對,所以會侵入到這個國家的基礎建設造成一些基礎建設的破壞,這有可能嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4303.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4308.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對,可能性存在單單只是傳播假訊息然後身為這樣子這麼簡單而以後越來越複雜對不對這個國安局這邊呢我們有沒有想說要成立底下成立一個國安單位那個AI的安全單位之類的有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4320.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4320.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
時間到了謝謝局長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4344.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4353.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個題目我們改天會排專報因為這個是一個問題到底有沒有辦法應處接下來進行詢答的委員是陳永康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4371.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4375.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
好主席有請國安局局長請好謝謝主席陳委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4385.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4411.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
局長早大家都關心這兩天就是歷屆的是前面的委員也提了既然這個演習看起來只是短短的13小時其實就局裡面的研究來講反推起碼13天前就已經掌握有些趨勢發展了因為剛才在前面的報告裡面提到了一些國際的情勢那我這邊先做一個建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4413.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4424.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
對於俄烏戰爭因為那個復原廣大對於烏東的狀況即便攻勤裡面大家對台海跟烏克蘭的狀況的比較沒有概念烏克蘭的面積是台灣的16.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4432.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4454.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那麼人口是4300萬比2300萬但是呢人口的密度跟個人的耗電啊那台灣超過他太多所以這個case在比照這個加薩走廊或是最近在亞太的情勢我們建議以後做報告的時候在封底附一張蓋圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4456.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4472.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好那能夠說明因為我們參與的同仁並不是每位對這個裡面都了解我舉例來講像最近像在東海比方講這個環繞軍演對日本方面的也在觀測比方來講大家都在講宮古島 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4474.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4477.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
中共跟菲律賓啊或者是越南在南海的比方講黃岩島、仁愛礁 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4491.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4493.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4515.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4526.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
因為沒有經緯度就沒有真正的影響到國際民航跟海上航行那這個圖呢就把一個大範圍的圖套疊到他公開的圖我們再看下一張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4528.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4542.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個就把三次演習的圖套疊底圖是中共發布的我們把它倒疊出來去看出這個位置有沒有偏差這個圖已經偏離開了這張圖就是演習完了我們國防部在報載上公開的這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4552.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4578.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
但這些資料呢他的互動關係呢不是用統計數字單獨來判我們再看到下一張這個下面的圖各位就看到了遼寧號這是日本公布的我們當然在局裡面有不同單位可以掌握也就是說這個遼寧號的位置實際上在防空識別區的東南角但是他的兵力投射的範圍可是已經深進來我們的電視主任在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4583.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4599.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
對 殲15 殲載機有出來是 電纜是有許多的情資來源我們在這邊不提但是他掌握的位置能不能跟我們對外面公情顯示資料做一個相對的比較那對於我們高階的長官做判斷就 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4602.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4626.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這張圖上很明顯的就是韓國的防空示威區日本防空示威區中共的東海防空示威區我們防空示威區菲律賓的都框出來如果你關係周遭的情勢你必須有一個涵蓋大範圍的圖讓我們的高階的長官能夠了解而不是僅是聚焦在台海周邊的那個狹義的圖像這個圖各位看我們有一個大範圍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4628.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4655.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
衛星的圖再套上航圖海圖經過校正的所以臨近國家的防空示威區臨海空域基線都做了個套別最後呢再把中共這次演習的這個圖套上去這樣子對長官的判斷尤其是在做決策過程中的時候他的格局放大但是呢細緻的圖基礎資料也可以提供他做一個正確判斷的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4656.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4678.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
最後這次例件我們還是用一個方法論就原則上面不設限沒有禁航區沒有影響國際航道不動手沒有實彈射擊或是海上臨檢它的統戰策略灰色地帶軍事行動隔離封鎖與武攻台三項行動常態化不定期穿插聯動並把台灣周邊的海域內海化 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4679.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4694.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
作為法律戰的一個有效支撐那麼現階段我們可以看出來的東部戰區不管他的東海的艦隊呀空軍火箭軍海警他一個同調式的做我們從宏觀微調檢視一體化的聯合作戰已經變成常態就剛才吳寧的報導中間出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4699.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4709.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
他證明的是一個是反制國際的介入第二個他跟國際輿論戰他要用法律戰的角色來做對抗雖然時間13小時但是剛剛講了準備絕對不止13天 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4716.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4730.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個結論就是說做一個建議就是說在會局裡面內部有非常詳盡的源頭或者是不管是從工情有對我有幫分析完了但是我們在上層到決策過程中間我建議是要有一個共同圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4731.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4746.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
．． |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4747.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4768.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
謝謝委員的一個指導來提醒我們在方法論上怎麼樣在圖示的部分對於中共演習的區域還有它軍事的意涵不只是對台灣的軍事意涵而是對整體區域的軍事意涵可以有一個綜合的研判這是第一點那第二點也確實如委員所說的我們在中共演習之前的很長的時間大概在預判上就預判 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4770.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4795.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
政治上應該會有對台的動作所以我記得國內媒體應該是在10月7號也有相關的報導就預判國慶之後中共就會有所謂的聯合力艦2020B的演習這大概是政治上的判斷那在軍事上因為在中共宣布軍演之前它的基建都會有相關的一個活動這部分我們跟國防部電展室都非常密切的聯繫來做必要的演習在圖示的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4795.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4813.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
跟委員報告也確實正如委員剛剛所指導的我們在上個週末幾乎都是在把這些情資能夠圖示化所以當禮拜一一大早總統召開國安高層會有個人是帶著我做好的圖資進去做報告的所以這代表我們在演習之前已經做好相關的運營的一個備案 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4814.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4841.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
提供給我們做參考對謝謝局長因為這個電纜室也是我們過去在國軍服務的時候一個很重要的機制我們大家有聯繫因為電纜室做的東西是非常低調不對外講的是那實際上提供的資訊有些當然也可以跟公勤做相對的輔助做查證那我們盡量希望大家的報告以公勤公開的來討論那閉門的秘密會議裡面東西我們就不去 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4843.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4869.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
最後的建議就是說希望這個國安局跟國防部在共同圖像方面將來一起共同發展合作這樣子在重要會議中間的那個大圖小圖我們可以套疊七八成從不同的來源顯示不同的時間不同的位置不同的動態不同的行動最後一紙回溯我們可以預推我們要降低風險掌握狀況這個提供局長做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4870.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4872.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好謝謝陳永康委員接下來進行詢答委員是林楚瑩委員謝謝主席主席邀請蔡局長來 局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4900.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4929.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好 謝謝主席 林委員長主席早安 局長早安剛剛羅美玲委員已經有特別針對在面對中國的軍演所引發的一些後續的觀察跟效應我想其實不只是中國對我們施以這個所謂武嚇文攻的部分其實同時也在測驗台灣的心戰跟認知作戰我不知道這個局長你同不同意這個說法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4929.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4946.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我剛剛也跟媒體朋友在講就是我們這次的演習花很多時間在掌握中共的基建動態以外其他的時間都在因應所謂的認知作戰對可能認知作戰的部分我先舉兩個例子第一個是我們都知道中國其實是不能開YouTube的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4947.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4963.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
但是他居然在一個叫做中興網直播整個聯合歷屆2024B的過程這個其實是給全世界看包括台灣看尤其是他還說反對台獨分裂勢力那這個說法其實都是衝著台灣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4964.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4983.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
另外就是後來到了稍晚之後PTT上面開始出現洗版的假訊息說我們的天然氣船兩次進不了台灣像這種混合式的認知作戰或者是心理戰喔那麼國安局的掌握狀況如何那麼我們第一時間如何來處理因為我們當然知道後來中郵是發了這個澄清稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4988.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
5001.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那像這樣的過程當中是他們自己發現了還是說事實上在面對這種更多的混合型的認知作戰或是心理戰我們如何來部署來第一時間做因應因為心防的崩潰其實更可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
5003.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
5023.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
對 因為剛剛也跟那個陳永浩有做說明了事實上對於中共的軍連我們在之前都有做一些部署那這部署除了去徵收中共的軍事動態以外另外網路上的假訊息也是我們在這段期間特別警戒的重點另外還有就是資安的攻擊所以這是一個全面配套政府之間的一個聯防的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
5023.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
5046.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那一旦在網路上出現委員剛所講到的這樣的假訊息的話：我們馬上啟動我們的機制來進行溯源的查找那也跟委員報告我們查找的結果這是一家中國的網路公司所釋放的那這家網路公司在美國在廣州上海都有他的分公司那比對之後發現他用不斷變更IP的方式來散布這一類的假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
5047.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
5061.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以第一時間通報到各單位來應酬包括到經濟部以及包括到調查局都針對這個個案來進行一些新聞的說明跟釋出來讓民眾不要受到假信息的影響好 謝謝因為我覺得第一時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
5062.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
5079.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
來回應應對甚至於避免明星的恐慌這是更重要的但更重要的是也希望這樣的事情當他們反走過必留下痕跡即使不斷的透過跳板但是我相信現在的科技是可以日新月異來有助於相關的單位來抓住這些源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
5080.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
5090.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那麼以只有斷元的方式才有機會去降低這種所謂對台的心理戰或認知作戰那麼這是予以肯定那至於有關於這個主席已經講了未來AI怎麼打炸的部分會有專報那我就不問了但是我要問的是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
5095.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
5115.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
可能對於國安會有另外一個新已經存在在台灣要面對的狀況就是中國的電動車是不是成為新的木馬這個之前其實我有說過了那我在大院質詢卓榮泰院長跟經濟部長的時候我都有提到那就是中國的電動車現在全球都被視為包括美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
5116.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5143.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
甚至於他是用關稅的方式因為中國的低價傾銷策略會導致中國的電動車變得非常有競爭力但是本席現在發現的是說在我們的地方政府當中中國的電動車用一個什麼方式比亞迪我想這是中國的平台大家都知道但是他透過一個席產地的攻略直接進軍到我們的公車地方政府的公車以及可不可能就是我們各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5144.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5164.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
中央跟地方政府的公務車因為他中國用補貼電動車的方式他合作台灣的代理商搖身一變居然變成台灣車然後呢他用租賃公司的方式來進行低價投標我們知道我們很多的中央政府的標案是用什麼方式都是用價格標 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5166.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5183.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我想這個不用多說在美國或是其他國家現在嚴防的就是中國電動車的傾銷那麼如果說今天我們的各單位在標案上面一樣是價格標然後又讓中國車用洗產地的方式就是直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5184.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5207.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
先化整為零然後跟中國中國找到台灣的代理商然後在台灣境內做一個組裝搖身變成台灣車這樣的問題我認為國安單位必須要重視因為他不只是跟國安有關他跟工程會在標案的設計上面還有經濟部以及各級地方政府那麼我們都知道電動車 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5209.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5233.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
他如果在台灣滿街跑那麼這個所謂的聯網型的車輛在台灣就有可能成為間諜工具成為攻擊的工具那現在這個狀況他其實已經存在了本需查過了中央跟地方的標案在滿街上面的公車又或者是載著我們的各級包括我們立法委員各級的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5234.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5256.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
先是首長或者是部會首長的公務車那麼怎麼來因應跟應處這個問題國安局有沒有注意到有注意到這個應該已經是歐美國家非常重視的一個議題特別是美國商務部在上個月也公佈一個非常完整有關中國聯網車可能的治安風險那這包括到可能相關車輛會把 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5258.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5262.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們已經有把資訊跟經濟部做報告跟分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5285.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5302.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
第二部分是委員所提到的這種電動車會不會在臺灣藉口來低價進入到各級政府機關的那個汽車電動車的採購標案那這部分我們再來特別注意特別有沒有哪些個案那有這樣的狀況的話我們來啟動我們的機制來進行查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5304.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5327.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好本期會查到的就是說現在因為低價的電動車我查的一台可能比如說以公車或公務車來講如果它的價格低於其他國家所生產的電動車的時候那就像我剛剛提到的我們在政府採購的時候常常都是價格標嘛低價者得那麼中國的這種補助的時候它可能就會造成是其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5328.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5340.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
國家或者是其他非中國品牌就相對的沒有競爭力那像這個部分的話有沒有可能有國安單位來做一個統合的單位或者是發起其他的會議包括您說這個報告已經給經濟部了什麼時候給經濟部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5344.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5362.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
9月22左右我都印象沒記錯9月的時候就已經給了當時我注意到美國的報告我就非常重視特別請你負責資安的部門把它做一個完整的分析提供給經濟部因為畢竟這部分的業管是全責是在經濟部會那國安局有這樣的情資或有這樣的風險的預判我們就給業管單位來參儲 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5365.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5380.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好所以另外一個本席提供的數字這個其實也是已經都是公開的資訊就是如果說以國產車來講我們國產車有許多中國的零件不知道你給經濟部的報告當中是不是也有這個部分那就是我們的公務車裡頭他 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5381.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5409.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
如果不是中國的品牌它也有可能是在零組件當中來自於中國而目前中國也是我們重要的進口的零件的部分那這個相關的部分還有另外一個除了經濟部之外那就是關稅如果說今天我們進口車是17%左右的關稅那麼在零組件當中尤其是從中國進口的零件從10%到17%不等那麼這些零件當中是不是也植入在我們的公務車的採購當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5411.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5432.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那這個部分到底怎麼樣來做一個標準跟界定這個部分國安局有沒有關注到?我們有關注就理解經濟部應該在這部分也有注意到委員所提到的潛在的風險所以應該在兩三個月前有一個新的措施是針對使用中國提供的汽車零件它比例應該不能超過35%左右那假如沒有達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5436.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5437.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
本席希望呢這個國安單位能夠針對這個部分來做了解因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5454.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5464.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
電動車就開在台灣而中國的電動車用清消的方式補貼的方式除了當然他希望佔有市場的市佔率之外對我們來講這種敵對勢力當中如果植入相關木馬城市或者是對於台灣的整體安全有危害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5471.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5476.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
從公車到公務車我希望國安單位能夠跟其他相關的部會能夠聯絡起來把這個問題做一個處理跟了解如果可以的話我也希望您剛提到的這個報告包括提供給經濟部有關於中國電動車傾銷台灣的狀況可能遇到的問題這個報告是不是也可以提供給我們立法院國防外交委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5493.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5494.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
接下來質詢請王定宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5527.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5531.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
謝謝麻煩請國安局海巡署有請蔡局長海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5536.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5565.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好 謝謝主席 換委員長局長跟署長好我們常常會提到海巡署跟國安單位會有很多事件我舉個例子在今年的6月份中國的快艇直闖淡水河當然淡水河對我們來講是我們未需作戰非常重要的愛口那邊有淡水大營然後呢進來之後可以到我們的水門就到總統府中樞的附近所以當時大家是很嚴肅看這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5566.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5591.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們漢光演習不管幾號的演習沿著這條河我們都有重兵在部署那當時我們看到中國快艇直闖淡水河劃分上海巡署我們這個應該是在權責上24海里以內就12海里以內應該是你們的權責嘛那這裡面有一些精進啊什麼我要請教你但是我想到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5592.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5597.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我現在排列的也許只是時間序列不見得是因果關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5614.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5629.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
在2021��2021年4月30號臺中港西碼頭有一個軍規的橡皮艇上來了這個案子到現在怎麼情形大概請你一定回答當時在4月份共建航母這一個遼寧號跟武騷軍艦在臺海周邊演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5633.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5652.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
後來在2022年的6月11號臺東的富岡漁港那個時候有水上摩托車啦有橡皮艇啦等等也有類似這樣的事件當時是聯合警巡然後到今年的523聯合利建A |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5653.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5659.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
首先我要請教海巡署跟國安局之前那幾件目前偵辦調查的狀況進度可不可以讓我們知道一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5676.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5703.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我先整體說明一下再請署長來做細節的補充就一旦發生到中國的偷渡客的案件之後一定是先交由地方的檢察機關來偵辦那再送請地方法院來進行偵處那以最後的那個淡水的那個案子一審已經宣判就是判刑8個月但是當事人在那個是指非法入境偷渡的部分我現在講的是國家安全情資情報的部分是這一些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5705.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5725.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
有沒有去研判他跟我們國家安全或者試探軍情有所關係有沒有因果關係我們在做相關的判斷因為當事人都會有些說辭我們必須要針對他的說辭來做一些釐清再配合到他的數位軌跡以及他所攜帶的這些物品以及傳播國安局現在整合所有情報機關你們目前研判起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5727.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5747.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
有沒有那樣的跡象在每個個案的狀況都不太一樣但是我們發現的跡象是他們一般都是要來這邊投奔自由那都說到他們在對岸有受到相關的迫害那我們覺得那個說辭似乎都版本很一致像一個模板對對對這大概是我們注意到的對他有像一個模板的說辭然後呢坦白講這個時代齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5749.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5766.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
他們買個機票飛那個生命的風險更低成功機率更高所以這個我說國安局目前就這些零碎的麵包屑判斷起來有沒有跟國安關係或者中國受益的因果關係有沒有這樣的跡象 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5766.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5784.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
對這種可能性跟這種跡象確實一直都存在那海巡署你們目前像臺中港西碼頭那一個用軍規的橡皮艇啪一下跑到我們臺中港那臺中港在我們未需作戰在我們國土保衛戰裡面是一個重要的點嘛你們那個案子現在有沒有新的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5785.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5813.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
跟委員報告那這個案子我們現在研判起來他是用小型的快艇跟跟這一個這一個機動那個我知道因為報紙有寫嘛他小型快艇然後衝進來然後我們這一個最後面的研判的分析的結果就是剛剛跟那個國安局蔡局長講的部分就是非常一致的就是我們不排除中共利用重複不斷的對於我們台灣可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5816.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5827.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我現在給兩位或者我們國安高層一個建議因為我們的偷渡這種非法路徑的刑責很低它的代價很小 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5829.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5853.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
反過來我們這邊要不然我們叫張榮鑫署長弄個快艇跑到中國試試看你看要關多久所以他的代價低試探的成本很低所以他如果在偷渡以外有其他的跡象的話我們應該援引更嚴的更重的法律來制裁他來遏止這個情形這是一個第二個我們海巡署有沒有精進的作為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5854.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5882.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
海上的船那麼多有的有AIS有的AIS發報又是錯誤的然後呢漁船有50艘100艘有一個快艇迫近進來你們現在有沒有什麼具體的作為來防止再發生跟委員報告齁那針對這部分我們會跟國安隊相關單位做聯合勤見證部分那另外一部分因為你聯合勤見證什麼部分過去也有聯合難道你們以前互相沒有聯合嗎有有有有有有他跑進來啦有沒有什麼作為去防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5882.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5903.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們現在的作為就是我們要提升我們雷達的徵收效能那從這幾個案例這個顯示我們現在現有的所有的雷達包括徵收裝備它對於小型目標掌握它是有它的盲點的部分雷達有盲點是那但是剛好我岳父是漁民啊近海作業漁船你知道有多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5904.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5926.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你看到了你怎麼辨別它又不是大家都有開AIS有的AIS還買Made in China打開來的顯示還不對的你怎麼辨別跟委員報告目前我們現在跟港港局還有US在推動就是在114年會全部在不管是20噸以下20噸以下的這個所有傳播要求要裝AIS |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5928.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5943.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那這個部分會在114年的時候完成?這個也是要求他們的船裝AIS嘛我提醒就是說有些科技比如說無人機我前兩天去中科院看瑞淵2當然那是軍規的你們不用買到那麼貴那麼好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5944.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5957.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
他可以在空中俯視同時掃到所有的大小型船艦然後用AI去辨別他到底是明確的或不明的C4ISR要整合通報回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5959.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5959.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
海巡署請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5987.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
6010.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那個蔡局長現在我剛才看到我們有一些不管是針對例件A啦或者是例件B我要請教是我們現在中共的聯合戰備警詢幾乎已經常態化了嘛那它常態化的狀態下在可以揭露的情形下有沒有新的樣態國人需要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6012.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6027.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
對,就鄭委員所提到的聯合戰備警訊中共現在慢慢把它變成常態化大概平均下來每個禮拜會有一次的聯合戰備警訊每週一次規模大概多大他大概在 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6030.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6033.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
一般大概都會有幾艘的船艦到我們的24海里周邊的水域來活動另外就除了一般的戰轟 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6054.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6056.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他有登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡是是你們怎麼研判登陸艦新增加為戰備警巡的船艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6069.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6092.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
登陸艦參加聯合戰備警巡大概有兩個目的一個目的就是熟悉那個航渡的一個過程那第二部分當然就是希望能夠在更熟悉整個台海的作業的環境那這大概是另外一個特點他們參加的登陸艦是什麼型號的?型號的部分都我記得有三級一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6093.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6094.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
兩位先求我最後一個問題來問一下調查局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6115.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6141.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
局長你邊走邊聽陳局長你前一個工作是我們國家安全維護處的處長而且你查查共諜的績效非常好曾經在一年內有20件盡力而為這個是你的職責你不行要盡力而為你要做到那我現在請教的是現在的犯罪尤其影響國家安全的犯罪常常跟洗錢有關因為它要有金流所以我把握最後跟主席借一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6142.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6158.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們在洗錢防治上或者我們過去有參加艾格蒙聯盟那他們在定義的Financial Intelligence Unit也就是說金融的情資單位FIU我們國家定義就是你嘛就是大家局 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6160.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6186.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那我請教過去一年來我們有沒有異常的接受不管相關的友盟相關的團體或者是這個愛格盟等等異常的通報有有我接受異常通報有有在這個愛格盟聯盟裡面的會員彼此都會對於一些異常的金流會有一些情報的交換在過去這一年有那我舉個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6188.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6217.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
在特定的政治人物特定的組織團體有沒有異常的金流目前沒有發現目前沒有發現那化整為零的網路平台的donate你們能不能掌握這個部分比較不會是在愛格萌聯盟通報那個不是愛格萌聯盟是金融活動那個是另外一個洗錢的管道在新的網路媒體平台它累積的金額可能百萬千萬但是過去我們法律在這一塊是可以防治的可能用donate的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6219.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6233.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
目前在金流的查處部分在有關這個部分確實是面臨到一些困難因為這個必須要這些網路的母公司在國際的這些公司的配合你們有沒有在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6235.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6261.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們現在正在努力跟這些因為我們要勾結他的金流跟他的犯罪行為才能對得起來吧那一塊變黑洞啊另外賭盤的地下金流詐騙集團的地下金流你剛才講的有通報是這一塊嗎這個部分是其中一個部分而已其中一個部分而已賭盤的地下金流跟詐騙的地下金流他們的流通的管道有很多像現在目前比較科技化的是會用虛擬貨幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6262.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6262.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6294.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6309.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好謝謝我們接下來進行詢答的委員沈柏洋委員好謝謝主席有請局長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6317.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6339.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
謝謝主席 周委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6340.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6367.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6368.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6384.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6385.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6409.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那這是從政治的角度來判斷那第二部分是中共要動員一場演習他必須要有一些基建的動員還有部署所以在演習之前的幾天大概已經可以看到這些基建開始進行一些活動那國防部當然也針對遼寧艦到西泰的這個動作有做一些新聞的釋出所以在過程當中可以知道中共已經在為所謂的聯合 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6410.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6416.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國外的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6437.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6465.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6466.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6488.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明我們說重視中共的軍事動態以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6489.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6504.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那另外也在注意到的是正義訊息的散佈以及治安攻擊可能的狀況所以就委員現在關心的正義訊息的散佈的部分我們都會在網路上即時即收即報那也讓各單位可以來進行必要的說明跟應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6505.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6534.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6535.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6554.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以整個過程當中對於正義訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6556.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6580.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是就是說他很多的爭議消息和奇怪的幾個點是在於說他一放之後呢他很快就刪除了那很快就刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說呢他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6582.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6610.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條那 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6611.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6630.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6630.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6649.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6650.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6668.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6669.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6696.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6697.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6718.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其派遣之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6719.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6746.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6747.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6764.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6764.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6780.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
讓我們開始在看這些法條的時候呢可以請問一下因為你們並在第一線所以到底有哪些類型沒有被放進來或者說有哪一些可能太廣了我們可能需要在委員會討論所以這方面可能請局長指示一下就是看能不能團隊然後來做一些準備好 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6781.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6804.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這部分也跟委員做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法那在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6805.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6831.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共安全或公共利益的部分但條文在運用上確實有它的限制所以非常從國安的角度來講我們非常樂見大院可以有這些修法的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6832.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6846.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
確實以反滲透法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6847.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6871.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像涉違法那一種就涉違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要嚴厲是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6871.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6888.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
開始就在散佈說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害來對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6888.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6912.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
在這一個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議信息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6914.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6940.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6941.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6942.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6980.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6981.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長來,局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6991.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7012.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
局長早 局長今天相信所有的委員大概我們也圍繞著大概就是在國安當然樣態也非常多可是我們看到今天的報告裡面尤其我們今天要探討的賴總統說會把2300萬人民的生命放在心上然後可是我們為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7014.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7026.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
現在看到解放軍在臺灣周遭軍演的頻率越來越頻繁然後距離也越來越迫近局長有什麼樣的看法對我想在看解放軍的軍演大概有兩個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7028.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7030.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
在國際社會要是有對於兩岸問題或對台灣的軍售或是通過友台的法案也會有中共一個理由來舉行相關的軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7050.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7068.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
第二面向是比較國際區域戰略的面向因為我們有注意到中共不只在台海地區事實上在東海地區在南海地區它的整體的動作都非常的多所以背後有一個整體的中共的大戰略是在做軍事上的一個投射能力的提升那台灣當然就變成首當其衝 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7069.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7089.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以中共其實它所謂的大戰略它就不會只針對台灣那可是過去因為剛剛講到的不管是軍售也好或者其他比如說我們在所有的對外的一些相關的言論或者兩岸的交流等等其實最大最明顯的不同是因為兩岸交流現在已經凍結了 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7091.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7118.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
根本沒有辦法有效的去做溝通或者在交流方面其實不管是民間也好政府也好其實都已經達到了冰點所以讓我們現在發生的狀況越來越嚴峻包括現在很多外媒也好不要說我們自己啦因為這樣有很多什麼錯假訊息剛剛有提到說如果要入法的部分在這裡也提醒國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7119.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7131.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
今天不是只有哪一些代表人物或者什麼教授或誰他們可能需要被這樣約束如果政府或者有官員製造錯假訊息或者甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7133.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7135.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那我要請教的是解放軍在10月14號聯合立見 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7162.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7174.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
2024B維台軍演的部分．他包括了藥港藥城的封控．還有對海對陸的打擊．他演習的科目是未曾出現過的這樣子的一個具體訊號 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7176.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7201.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
一解放軍演習示意圖他用紅圈標出來臺灣有六個十分重要的香港軍港連續兩次他這一次已經標出來了這連續兩次執行聯合立見2024系列的演習一相關的情報演習想要請教局長他相同跟不同的地方在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7202.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7220.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
有,我們也是有向委員所提醒的來做一些例次演習的比較那我們比較了這一次的2024B還有5月的2024A跟去年4月的2023聯合力戰的演習那比較起來這一次的演習的時間是比較短的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7220.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7220.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
國防部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7251.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7267.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
局長他雖然只有13個小時不過根據日美的他的報導他的看法這次解放軍他展現全天候行動的能力是更加的實戰化我剛剛請教的是說他A跟B有什麼樣相同或不同的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7269.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7291.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
實際上委員剛剛已經有提到了他這次畫色本島外面大概有6個演習區以及3個外離島包括東眼馬祖跟烏丘有所謂的巡邏區那他畫的那個演習的區域大概委員剛剛已經提到了就是執行的是要域要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊那這大概是跟上次在演習科部比較不一樣的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7295.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7315.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
簡單來說在這裡要提醒然後也跟局長做一個探討當時有2024A的時候大家就有猜到可能還有BCD等等然後現在B已經出現了那A的時候其實如果大家有印象那時候澎湖還在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7317.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7336.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這一次它澎湖不見了它圍住的是我們台灣它把台灣包圍起來所以簡單來說A是演練區域拒止B現在看起來它是海港封鎖它就是包圍戰如果到C的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7337.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7359.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
因為你這一次澎湖沒有他等於說A的時候他感覺好像他已經拿下澎湖了所以在B的部分是整個包圍我們所有的港口海港商軍港等等那如果是C局長你看會怎麼樣如果他還有利建C你研判會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7360.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7383.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
中共歷次的軍演他都有他的演習科目要去推動那當然從不同的演習科目當中去檢驗他的一些軍事準備的一些方案作為後面修正的一個餐具那至於聯合歷屆2024期第一個會不會發生以及發生的話他演習科目會怎麼進行我想不適合做太多的臆測那我要提醒的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7384.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7395.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那不是議策你要做準備因為剛剛有委員在說你們提早好像知道B的時候你是很高興的喔那現在如果說我們預判有C的時候你覺得它會是怎麼樣因為我們剛剛有提到A的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7399.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7401.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
中共一些軍演相關的預案大概有幾個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7427.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7431.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我跟委員講從這些重點出來第一個聯合火力打擊聯合封控 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7432.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7438.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
聯合登錄聯合登錄還有聯合記者我現在說的是ABC他為什麼要分ABC我剛剛講了A是什麼B是什麼B已經包圍了C會是什麼他會做什麼樣的演練有可能是登錄嗎這個我們有沒有做到這樣的演習我剛剛已經跟委員講了他歷來的演習就是剛剛我講的那幾個重點那剛剛委員對A的解釋因為不是那麼貼近實際的狀況那A是什麼你的看法A是什麼如果不是貼近實際的狀況A是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7462.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7466.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那是我們現在的看法,你必須要,那你要解釋說他為什麼這次澎湖沒有在裡面呢?我們國安局怎麼看呢?C有沒有可能演練就是登錄? |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7482.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7501.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
回答這個部分就好我沒有辦法做這樣的預判那如果他演練的是這個部分呢每一次的演練都是我剛剛跟人報告的那幾個重點你不是等著人家玩以後你再去做那個就不叫延期是你必須要在他之前還沒有做之前你就必須做判斷所以我們現在要知道的我們擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7503.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7508.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們要怎麼樣去有應處的作為你A B已經完了接下來的C是不是登錄的一個演練這個部分我們國安局回去以後做一個詳細的去研判好不好我們在推演演習的預案不是憑空想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7520.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7548.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們會根據他在延期之前我們會根據他在延期之前實際的兵力調度實際的兵力部署的狀況來做必要的預判我們會有預判這什麼預判就非常準確請求委員請告訴我們C也許會出現C你的延期是什麼這是國安局的責任你必須讓全民知道而不是大家如果有B的時候大家還是馬照跑舞照跳現在大家就是這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7550.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7550.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
接下来 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7575.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7598.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個局長你告訴我們所有你研判C可能會什麼這個是你們要做的這是本期在這裡提出來接下來我想要請教的官局在今天的報告裡面強調統戰中共要掌握兩岸關係阻擾權要我們的基層青年富中還有大力的推動交流等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7600.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7626.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們認為這是中共的意識形態還有它的文化統戰的一個部分可是我舉幾個例子不好意思喔主席第一個郝柏春在晚年的時候他有附錄公開曾經說過中國大陸官方在抗戰宣傳上面把國民黨跟共產黨相提並論這是不公道的一個說法他認為他說包括共產黨跟國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7627.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7628.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
蔡明彥率相關情報機關首 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7652.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7680.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
認為國民黨是有很大的一個貢獻因為畢竟蔣介石是當時世界公認的中國領袖國軍在主戰場上抗日是主要的一個主力那另外還有就是共產黨是無神論者我們說我們去參鄉是被統戰我想我們舉的很多的例子包括周杰倫他青花死在兩岸其實都傳唱非常的普遍這些其實都 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7681.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7710.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這是共產黨的統戰嗎?其實應該是反統戰吧而且我們甚至讓他們後來把我們不要的全部都撿走了這個部分我想國安局在這個部分是不是在做一個更深切或者更務實的一個說明我們會釐清那個文化交流跟文化統戰的差別那文化統戰一般很多都涉及到它統戰部門的活動跟全台聯台辦系統相關的文化滲透跟統戰那這才是我們關注的重點而不是一般的文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7710.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7738.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以不要把所有的交流都把它套上被統戰的這個帽子因為大家承擔不起這個也不是國安局應該做的你應該要更務實的而且更實際的去區分出來我剛剛提到的ABC麻煩在C的部分國安局可以提供給我們委員會相關的資料就算交流我們都尊重都沒有意見但是對於違議場或違法的我們會積極的來去檢查不要用自己的態度去加上違法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7739.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7740.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
接下來進行詢答的委員是黃仁委員有請謝謝主席有請局長來蔡局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7764.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7791.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好謝謝主席黃國仁長是原寫剛剛馬文堅所提的就是例件A跟例件B那根據在107年的路透社裡面已經有報道出來那我在10月8號我在國安總諮詢的時候我特別有諮詢我們的主委院長包含國防部的顧立雄部長特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7793.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7796.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
在我們的雙十國慶的晚宴晚會當時的主播論延遲到我們10月10號 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7805.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7823.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我特別提到說對岸不是沒有動作只看我們10月10號是不是我們賴總統又提了新的兩國論果不其然引起了這樣的一個震驚跟震撼那最後最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7825.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7842.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以他們在前天就有大動作來這樣的一個還台我想不管是例件A或者例件B未來的例件C可能會產生的對我們國安對我們整個的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7844.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7860.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
會動盪的不安所以這樣的一個很多的消息是不是你們高層國安高層洩露出來的秘密還是怎麼樣讓我們國內造成不安局長你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7861.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7861.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
蔡明彥 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7891.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7905.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你們要調查清楚好不好麻煩你們調查到底是你們高層內部還是總統府放出來的消息還是你們國安單位放出來的消息這個你調查一下好不好給本席一個報告那另外就是關於東亞的局勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7909.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7932.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你報告裡面是提了以哈戰事反而真正在東亞東亞發生的衝突的結果沒有提到你這邊的裡面的報告目前朝鮮半島對我們台海的趨勢本來有關聯性前三天都已經發生這樣這麼重大的一個兩韓之間北韓跟南韓之間的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7934.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7954.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以這個發生裡面都已經產生對我們國內對極大台海的局勢那另外就是我們今天我們講一個共機發動聯合力建2024的經驗以朝鮮半島的局勢升高時期很巧妙 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7954.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7982.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那局長認為這只是一個巧合還是中共跟北韓已經有互通的消息你來回答一下社委委員提到朝鮮半島的安全情勢那事實上朝鮮半島安全情勢的升溫大概在去年的下半年8月以後它的狀況就有比較升溫那主要的原因是在當時因為美日韓的峰會對於朝鮮半島風險的控管有達成了美日韓高層的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7982.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7985.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
十幾點都已經這麼巧合的一個十幾點所以你們有沒有掌控這樣的一個情報有些寫者有寫者指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8002.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8024.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
中共利用朝鮮半島趨勢升溫的時間點進行了軍演目的是要在測試美軍有無能力同時應對朝鮮半島及台海兩格危機因此顯然中共的目標主要在區域據上中共認為一旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8025.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8054.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
能夠達成區域聚職就能順利武統台灣局長嚴判認為這樣的說法有沒有正確因為這是學者說的這是一種學者的說法我們當然會尊重也會參考但實際的狀況事實上跟人說明的是最近這一段期間北韓跟俄國的關係是積極的在改善跟加強當中但反倒是中共跟北韓的關係是處在一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8055.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8074.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們從雙方互動往來的成績以及北韓也對中共來進行相關的一個批評那還有中共也在管制北韓的物品到中國大陸來所以我們整體來分析就情資的角度來看那朝二的關係在加強但中朝的關係現在是處在比較低潮的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8074.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8098.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
因為路透社所報導的你們應該都已經掌控但是高層裡面放消息你們也應該知道所以不是因為他們在開始還台、圍台的時候你們才緊急的國安會議包含總統召集所有的各單位裡面緊急的會議應該你們在之前就應該掌控而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8098.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8117.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
要對國人對外在台海局勢的一個狀況裡面要如何來安撫我們國人要不然的話又是一個緊張其次台海之間的一個關係那另外就是我特別講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8119.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8146.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
台海跟朝鮮本來就是全球的一個火藥庫所以我們這個部分我們特別要國安局要掌握這個消息的第一手消息因為我常常提到對岸有任何動作我們國安本來就是優先的而不是要透過了媒體爆料甚至你們高層的爆料所以我想剛剛我提到是希望你們提供這個資料給我那另外一次來我 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8147.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8175.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我想請教一下我們的海巡署委員你好你好這一次的聯合歷艦B演習在內中共不斷強化其海警與軍隊聯合作戰的能力本期過去執行過多次提到觀察中共歷史的演習他們每一次都會有新的演練的項目那花燒越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8176.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8190.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那逼迫越來越緊今年的2月中共海警曾經在金門南下了我們觀光船登船臨檢盤查過去中共海警主要在外島這一次已經到了本島周邊驗證要幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8193.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8216.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
要一要港的封控的能力這一次的傳出剛剛你們一直提到假消息假消息今天傳出了中友的LNG傳液化天然氣運輸傳台達二號因共經演習掉頭反而這個方向的驅離那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8218.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8243.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你們中郵有特別有這個新聞稿裏面有澄清是因為港區無毛破區供該船的停泊請問一下有這麼巧的事情這是你們自己資源吸收還是你們自己本身掌握的情報不足你們現在海巡署要特別特別注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8244.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8270.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為你們是海巡治安單位最高的單位你來回答一下好不好跟委員報告那因為這個LNG船的部分是這個經濟部跟外電已經有發布宣告澄清那沒有這一個事情那另外海巡署在應對中國公務船部我們主要是應對海警船跟相關的公務船那軍艦部分是由國防部來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8271.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8294.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那這次演習沒有進到我們24海里雖然它動用的海警船高達12艘但是沒有進到我們12海里那只要它一進到我們12海里我們是採一艦一艇的方式來對應並航監控那只要進到的時候我們會做驅離跟必要的手段那這部分我們海軍署完全可以掌握這個海面的狀況跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8297.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8315.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我現在提一個方向中共還請傳執行的是屬於內政行為那內政行為的執法若我國無法有所應對等同默認中共建立於內政程序對台的新常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8316.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8340.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
海巡署是我國海洋巡訪的治安單位對於中共打算建立的新常態有什麼樣的應對來如果下次再發生不管今天他是利劍B未來可能引進到利劍C這個他們在一弄一國際法的這樣的一個戰略的一個名稱你來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8340.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8370.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
跟委員報告那只要中共的海警船進到我們24海里他來所謂的執法事實上他不是執法這已經是一個騷擾行為侵擾行為那我們會用最嚴正的這一個部署然後來去加以去理那這邊要特別跟委員報告我們海巡組對維護我國海權海疆的權益是不遺餘力的我們堅定我們的立場絕對不會讓中共進到24海里 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8370.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8392.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
特別分為報告另外這樣子啦報主給我一分鐘我們先講一個如果未來中共已常態性阻擾了LNG的運輸船那將是危害我國能源安全安全法那你們如果像的一個應對有什麼樣的一個應對能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8394.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8419.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
跟委員報告只要中共的公務船舶進到24海裏海巡署會不惜一切的手段拒止在24海裏不會讓中共的公務船舶進到我們24海裏不要再找一個理由說又是一個沒有提供停泊的一個地方再找這樣的一個理由好不好跟委員報告那是一個錯假訊息謝謝好謝謝防人委員來處長請回謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8422.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8424.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好接下來進行詢答委員徐巧熙委員喂 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8447.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8451.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
謝謝主席請蔡明彥局長跟我們海巡署署長來兩位請 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8457.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8479.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
謝謝主席 薛委員早謝謝我想在聯合力艦B的軍演當中中共他們實施軍警一體的新架構所以這一次他們的海警船也有編列首度納入我方對於對岸的新措施上次就有了有什麼樣的就是他在聯合力艦裡面編進來的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8481.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8503.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以聯合力艦A跟聯合力艦B它是在聯合力艦的這個系統裡面它編進來那我們的因應措施部分在海巡署人力裝備是否足夠因為最近我們也收到很多的陳情關於海巡署的相關的軍備裝備的部分他們有一些疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8504.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8526.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
是不是可以幫我們來做一些澄清：從國安的角度評估有沒有建議相關單位競速補齊的問題是海巡署要說的那是什麼各位跟委員報告那有關媒體報導部分海巡署的專業部分特別跟委員這個索米跟澄清那海巡署所有的艦船艇包括我們的所有的裝備它是足夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8527.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8551.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那我們有定義一個武器裝備的配物標準吸行的配物標準它根據任務不同會吸行不同的裝備那所以這個部分是沒有問題的另外這次中共海警船在台灣周邊總計有一個出現12艘但是我們海警署就出動了13艘的艦船跟58艘的巡航艇所以在應對上面是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8553.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8558.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
另外我們也準備了第二梯次的預備的兵力所以這個部分請委員放心沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8559.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8580.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
因為呢先前在之前的那個金門事件我們才發現說你們連最基本的這個監視器相關的設備都沒有所以大家才會很擔心說海巡署相關的設備到底買齊了沒所以我順便問一下後來你們相關船隻的監視器以及我們的海巡署的人員的監視器買齊了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8582.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8611.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
他們全部都已經到9月之前已經全部配發已經完成這個部分了那因為兩岸的海巡艦隊的部分呢中國大陸的海警船他們最大的艦級是多少噸一萬兩千噸二九零一我們台灣最大的艦級是多少噸四千噸在這麼大的懸殊之下那我們的因應措施是什麼我們的船比較多或者是我們因應的策略比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8612.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8613.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以你們的策略就是迅速我知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8634.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8662.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那接下來問一下蔡局長就是呢經濟部呢目前研擬要去菲律賓設置綠電再用船隻跟電纜送過來那郭志輝部長說呢這是AIT牽線的請問國安局有掌握這個資訊嗎這是因為是經濟部的業管那他們相關的一個計畫的整備跟推動我們尊重經濟部相關的一個對話說法但是目前配合中共武力演習使用的蟒蛇戰術您認為是否有國安的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8664.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8688.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這是美國智庫的一個用語叫蟒蛇戰術那我剛也跟包括陳永康委員在說明中共可能的對台軍事準備的方案有各種的方案那我們對各種方案都會加以引起那我問的是說設置這樣子的非綠兵設置綠電再用船隻跟電纜送綠電過來根據目前的中共對台的這樣子軍演跟相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8690.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8711.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
部署會不會有國安上面的問題你們的考量是什麼因為他這個案子可能還在規劃當中如果有這樣的案子的話假如有諮詢到國安局的意見的話我們會提供我們相關的評估在內部會議要做討論我現在就在問你嘛你的評估方案你覺得有沒有國安上的問題跟考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8712.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8736.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
政府單位運作來講因為我們並不知道他完整方案的規劃是什麼他的傳輸的路徑是什麼他在菲律賓設置的場區在哪裡這必須要有一個全面的評估才有辦法來說明那因為我們還沒有被智慧到去參加相關會議的討論所以我的資訊非常的有限所以說你們在經濟部長提出這樣子規劃可能是那我問你一個問題這有沒有涉及到國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8737.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8761.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這樣子的規劃有沒有涉及到國安要看它的內容不是嘛你一個電力有沒有涉及到國安嘛臺灣的電力的發送有沒有涉及到國安廣義來講有涉及到關鍵基礎設施有涉及到關鍵基礎設施當然就有涉及到國安那你現在跟我講打這些模糊仗有什麼意思那不是打模糊仗這是因為這個案子還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8761.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8790.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我問嘛那他們今天經濟部要推一個方案那這個方案可能會跟國安基礎建設有關係沒有先知會國安局沒有先告訴你們他的方案是什麼然後就擅自的在外面去講這件事情那這樣子請問有其道理可言嗎那有沒有把你們國安局有沒有把我們國家的安全放在眼裡呢這是今天這件事情會引發引發很大爭議的原因之一嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8791.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8810.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們尊重他們的評估跟準備計畫不是你們尊重他們的評估的問題你們也要去詢問對方說這到底是怎麼一回事嗎如果所有都是只是尊重對方的話那別人都坐下去了那你國安單位才發現說這不可以請問要怎麼收回成名納稅錢都花下去的時候那請問你國安局要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8810.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8834.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
可以理解委員的擔心但政府的運作不是這樣他一定會有一個評估跟整備的過程不然人家已經講出去了公開的論壇大大方方講昨天發生的事情啊對 業管單位對外的說明我們尊重在這個階段他怎麼樣做評估那後續假如需要國安局來提供意見我們會積極的來參與那你們要積極的告訴對方詢問他這個事情到底是怎麼回事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8835.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8856.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
好我們尊重業管單位相關的計畫推動的進程不是你們不是要去尊重對方的計畫是這個事情是會影響到基礎設施的所以你們要去問對方他們到底想幹嘛對有涉及到基礎設施的問題否則人家已經是坐下去了花了預算了跟AIT都溝通好了你們才發現跟國安的事情有問題的時候又把他停下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8857.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8866.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那這不是就產生了很大的矛盾嗎了解委員的問題啦但問題是很清楚但事實上這組的運動不是像我講的這樣子會有完整的評估會有完整的評估那過去承攬的公司叫做四方電訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8873.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8901.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我過去就揭露過這家公司跟中國大陸有很多的合作往來的業務未來是否會要求經濟部在海底電纜的合作業務選擇上面不應該跟中共有經貿的往來以保護國家的安全對就關鍵基礎設施來講資安管理法來講確實就關鍵基礎設施的採用的設備相關的零組件都不能有涉入的背景可是現在是這樣子耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8902.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8919.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
對,假如有真正社會背景的話就必須要確實的相關的事證來證明那請問現在我就告訴你現在就是這樣嗎我先前提供過資料給你們看就是如此嗎那請問有沒有要去調整會不會去調整我們會來掌握有沒有相關違意堂或違法的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8920.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8948.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
但我沒有調我不是司法警察機關我沒有調查權那有相關的資訊我們會給司法警察機關那我在給你嘛自己不查網路上有的東西那我在給你嘛對上次我有提在提問的時候有提到這一點對嘛那我意思是說你做基礎設施的公司那你同時又跟中國大陸有聯繫有一起在做相關的服務那我怎麼知道會不會內神通外鬼這是大家都質疑的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8949.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8968.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
接下來我要問一下文化統戰的事就不要放在那張powerpoint上面有錯字韓國瑜院長說過中華民國是我們的國美麗台灣是我們的家中華文化是我們的根民主自由是我們的寶局長請問你認同這四句話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8969.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8972.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我問第三句中華文化是我們的根這句話請問局長認不認同那我只問中華你認不認 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8988.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9002.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
國安本好你說是這樣對不對可是呢你卻說國安局警示中共文化統戰手法多元前移默化影響臺灣青年你說呢好這個呢中國文化也是一種這個統戰手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9005.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9033.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那請問中華文化是統戰手法這句話是從何而來我們講的是中共文化的統戰手法多元我們不是講中華文化是一種統戰我剛也在跟馬文君委員說明文化交流跟文化統戰是兩件不一樣的事情你裡面講到抗日歷史就是中共統戰是嗎那民國113年就是賴清德總統說的民國113年的歷史裡面有沒有包含抗日 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9034.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9044.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們在談所謂的文化統戰有一個重點跟委員說明有些這種統戰活動它發起的單位就是中共中央相關單位那是單位的問題但你談到的是舉辦座談研討抗日歷史也算在內啊要看它主辦單位是什麼所以是主辦單位的問題所以你在這個新聞裡面你談到的就是錯誤的嘛沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9055.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9083.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
談抗日歷史可以但是主辦單位如果他有同戰色才不行主辦單位跟相關的議題以及他們討論的角度那很有可能中共就是會透過這些文化的議題來包裝進行相關的統戰灌輸中共相關的政治意識形態那我最後再問你幾個例子好不好那我請問一下喔這個媽祖遶境算不算統戰台灣自己的宮廟的媽祖遶境嗎對啊但他們經常也會去大陸交流啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9084.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9096.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
對我剛才一直在強調立場很清楚正常的交流我們都尊重沒有意見但是有偽議場甚至違法的我們會注意那SHE唱中國話算不算統戰周杰倫的本草綱目算不算統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9097.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9116.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那文化交友文化活動我剛才已經一再的強調我們沒有意見所以中國話也不算本朝綱目也不算好再下一個我們沒有意見那我們平常的豆漿油條跟筷子也不算同在嗎中國文化不算同在我剛才就講過了正常文化活動正常文化交友沒有意見那四大民主水滸傳紅樓夢三國演藝跟西遊記不算同在 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9117.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9145.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
委員,文化活動跟文化統戰要分清楚那這個玩黑神話悟空的呢這個有爭議喔有些人認為這是文化統戰的一環電玩它的分級我們尊重業管機關的分級那但是我們需要提醒就那個黑悟空的整個的遊戲出來之後有很多的徵訊操作是在做統戰他們甚至說台灣就是因為沒有中國文化深度才做不出這種東西來這不是統戰什麼叫統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9146.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9160.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以你認為在玩黑悟空的人發表這些言論的算是同戰的言論我講的是正義訊息我不要擴大講成是電亂玩家我在提供沒有最後30秒那愛奇藝使用者跟抖音使用者算不算同戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9161.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9166.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
接下來要進行後續宣達前本席先宣告待會在陳冠廷委員宣達結束後我們休息5分鐘接下來進行宣達委員林益君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9211.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9221.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
謝謝主席 有請局長來 局長請主席 另外一人早 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9223.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9242.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
局長早首先先跟局長請教一些時事的問題用賴慶德總統最新的主國論的說法前兩天中共在我們的主國中華民國的海空域舉行了環台軍演國防部當然是全程都有緊盯那國安局是不是也有掌控 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9243.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9259.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
有,我們跟國防部都保持密切的聯繫我們甚至互派人員在掌握中共軍事相關的動態那一開始也跟陳永康委員有報告到我們大概在演習之前透過中共相關基建活動的部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9259.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9282.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那已經有預判到可能會有怎麼樣樣態的演習那請教局長一下因為這次中共的軍演有一些比較奇怪的地方跟以前比較不太一樣的就是說沒有公佈演習的具體位置還有沒有公佈演習的時間的範圍還有沒有公佈演習的性質然後這次除了這樣環台軍演之外也是中共海警首次實施了環島的巡航管控那請問局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9286.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9310.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這是不是在為以後有可能發生的封鎖戰做演練呢?也就是說中國企圖以執法難解為名行封鎖之時同時可以用軍隊作為支撐的力量避免落入發起軍事行動的口實還有一個本席覺得比較奇怪的就是太巧合了就是在軍演的那一天那時候那麼剛好有一個大陸的偷渡客在金門上岸被困 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9314.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9331.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那是不是同時會有一個軍演還有海警的巡航還有偷渡客複雜的情況那據我這樣觀察那是不是就是中國在測試台灣能不能同時處理從軍方到民間的多樣態威脅那局長你的看法是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9331.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9346.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
是,真的非常謝謝委員剛剛分享的觀察那這一次的軍演我們確實有跟過去的軍演來做一個比較那我一開始也跟媒體朋友說明這軍演的時間是比較短的事實上他有講時間就是10月14號 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9347.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9368.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
以我們比照他們過去對外說明的我們的觀察經驗來講應該就是一天的演習那第二點是他們的演習區域範圍比起過去的幾次演習來講範圍是有比較小而且他的範圍特別劃定在我們重要港口的外圍這也是剛剛有其他委員說這是不是有所謂要遇要港 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9368.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9388.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
封控的一個做法這也是我們觀察的重點那第三點是委員剛剛很正確的提出來這次的軍演除了海空軍的基建以外他有特別動用到海警船舶來參加這次的演練那總共台灣的外圍部分剛剛張署長也提到了有12艘的海警船 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9388.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9417.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
事實上還要再加上東引跟馬祖再各兩艘再加四艘所以整體在演習過程當中確實是運用海警船來進行一些灰色地帶的洗腦主要的目的可能就在凸顯他對於台海的實質的管控權所以我們在注意的是除了軍事的脅迫以外中共對於這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰的操作也是我們這一波在因應中共演習過程當中另外一個戰場 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9418.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9437.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好,那我今天也在業務報告中看到說你們多少提到就是你們有包括COVID-19之後中國的經濟復甦已經不如預期了在高科技的領域上又被美國圍堵還有加上中國政府現在在打房的力道比較猛所以全國的房地產幾乎都被打趴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9438.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9466.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
然後中共對於又不斷的收緊安全管控導致民生就是人民的生活越來越苦那我想請問局長在這樣的狀況下你認為是不是又會繼續出現有一些投奔自由台灣的中共偷渡客呢是不是會持續發生因為我最近發現對岸偷渡到不管是偷渡到金門還是偷渡到台灣這種案例不少根本就是已經開始現象化的趨勢而且台灣現在都沒有接納政治難民的法源依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9467.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9483.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
然後這些偷渡課裡面可能有一些握有重要情資的像是6月偷渡來的阮芳永當過解放軍的潛艦的艦長對解放軍的潛艦的戰術戰法他一定是非常的熟悉但是從逮捕收容起訴到判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9484.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9485.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這些偷渡客是來打探情資的呢還是來投誠的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9500.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9517.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好就那個整個中共內部的經濟情勢確實像委員所提到的他是處在一個比較低檔的一個狀態那雖然中共的中央提出很多的一個經濟改善的一個措施那看起來成效並沒有非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9517.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9545.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那特別在8月份他們公布的青年失業率高達18點多%這數字已經經過美化竟然還有18點多%的青年失業率而且8月公布還不包括9月的畢業潮所以確實看到他們現在有青年躺平的現象對於政府的一些經濟措施非常的不滿那第二點是這樣子會不會去鼓勵有一些對岸的人士到台灣來進行一些投奔自由或非法入境的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9546.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9574.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這部分我們也跟國安團隊有密切的注意今年為止應該就有八件這種中共中國大陸民眾來非法入境的一個狀況那一般一進來之後就要送到檢調單位來進行偵辦由地方法院來裁判是不是違反入出國管理法所以我們有一個法律機制來應處委員提到第三個重點是要是這些人來有重要的軍事情資的話那國安單位怎麼來掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9574.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9597.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那委員提到的那一位軟性的入籍的人士他因為有解放軍的背景也確實正如委員所說的媒體也有報導他有針對共軍的一些部署跟活動那有陳述一些他的觀察那更有人說明的是院方已經把相關的資料送到國安局來那我們也把相關提供的所謂的情資來做進一步的分析好 謝謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9599.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9601.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
原景基金會和亞太和平研究基金會這兩個基金會我們一般認知算是國安局的外圍的智庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9620.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9644.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
沒有他們是民間的社團那國安局跟其他政府單位一樣跟這兩個基金會有一些委託研究的關係那遠景基金會跟亞太和平研究基金會他們的預算是哪裡來的還有每年有編列預算給他們嗎還是藉由不同部會的委託案維持他的運作那國安局有沒有委託這兩個單位在做相關研究的計劃案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9645.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9665.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們有委託一些研究案給這兩個單位因為前面這個基金會他是比較涉及到國際相關的情勢或區域情勢的研判後面這個單位是比較涉及到對於中國大陸內部情勢還有一些兩岸關係的研判所以對於這兩個機構我們有一些委託合作的計畫來請他們協助我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9667.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9688.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
好那局長你知道這些官方和半官方的智庫其實都是在做學術研究然後應該都有學術的期刊產生譬如法務部調查局就有展望與探索的月刊國防研究院也有國防安全雙週報跟戰略與評估那同樣國安局遠景基金會也有固定發行遠景期刊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9690.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9709.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
然後相對來講亞太和平基金會就比較神秘你要請官局長亞太和平基金會的學術出版是什麼我的印象我沒有辦法替他來說明但我的印象他們好像也有一些比較簡單的出版品也有但有沒有對外發言我要再確認一下因為我記得好像是因為沒有出版品所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9712.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9738.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我現在看遠景基金會跟亞太基金會大致上其實他們是分工一個是對美一個是對中國大陸那最近來兩岸關係都陷入一個冰點了沒有辦法平凡的到大陸交流那這個前提下是不是至少又有一些學術產生那局長能不能解釋為什麼亞太基金會最近這幾年的學術研究都是趨近零呢而且基金會這裡面的研究員平常都是在做些什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9738.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9763.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
因為他是民間的單位我不適合來替他做說明那我們是跟政府其他單位一樣來做一些委託那特別強調是一些學術的委託的計畫因為也跟委員報告我們一般不太特別去強調本局、國安局跟外面單位的關係因為這很有可能會讓這個單位遭到中共相關的制裁或相關後續動作的干擾所以請委員能夠理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9764.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9776.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
好,所以你們就是只委託他們在做一些相關的一個計劃案,然後他們是民間的就對了?對,學術的單位,是。那我再最後問一個問題,就是想請教一下,就是關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9779.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9779.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
國安局有掌握嗎還有朝鮮半島的穩定也會牽動到臺灣的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9808.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9832.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這樣的話請教局長你認為南北韓關係會不會繼續惡化甚至爆發衝突呢因為剛剛黃委員也在指教這個議題我們有在關注因為確實從去年八九月之後北韓的動作就非常的多那我們會持續的來關注北韓會不會進一步冒進的動作特別因為接下來這個月是美國大選期間那怕北韓會故意製造一些可能的衝突事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9833.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9834.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
局長請回接下來建議詢答委員是陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9875.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9875.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
請局長來 局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9883.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9905.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這位主席蔡委員好 局長好 剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個清匯的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的青囊那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長清匯的這個部署圖是真的還是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9909.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9934.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9938.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9962.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講他還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9963.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9987.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的偷渡客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研擬的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9987.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9988.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10007.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10015.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的包含海巡等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10036.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10060.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍人我剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10062.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10086.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他的意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差那國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10086.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10105.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛剛也很多委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10106.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10124.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這一次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這一次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10124.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10149.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍演也不是這一次這一系列的軍演是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10150.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10159.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的這至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮俄羅斯其實在這一系列的這一次的軍演當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10180.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10203.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
都有某種程度是配合有可能是揚動那就我所知朝鮮跟中國的關係目前沒有這麼樣的友善但是在跟俄羅斯之間的關係是有在配合的所以如果中國跟俄羅斯跟朝鮮他們在這樣的狀況之下做情報共享甚至是有共同軍演的未來的這個傾向存在的話請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10206.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10231.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10235.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10258.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別在注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10259.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10288.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個麥肯前美國的參議員那一去世的麥肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10288.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10314.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10315.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10337.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在更加要加強我方跟包含菲律賓包含日本的情緒共享最後再一個部分局長昨天還有一個消息跟委員講的部分我們跟委員講的部分一分一秒鐘跟委員講的部分我們在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛剛還有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10339.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10339.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
目前我沒有看到這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10357.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10381.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共環台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為是整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這一次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有沒有方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10383.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10402.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10406.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10434.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
你可不可以給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10436.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10462.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那這個部分我必須再強調齁這個這次演習齁這個我還是把那個日本的那個圖片有沒有啊來分享給他們看喔其實這個日本防衛社的統和幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示齁那剛才陳宏康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為啊其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分齁還有給民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10464.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10488.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10489.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10504.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10506.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10531.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
會有影響?什麼樣的影響?包含在以色列最近的這些衝突裡面他們有一個叫全民防線的這些APP就是讓他們知道說到時候遇到真的是有真正的侵擾的時候離他們最近的避難地點在哪裡還有水、糧、油還有等等的軍事的這些狀況是為何我想這個部分國安局還是可以做一個重整這就涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺這個我們來出 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10533.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10553.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內嘛就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這一個領域的藥業藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10554.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10555.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10571.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10573.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
陳冠廷委員我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10654.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10655.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
跟這個有沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11009.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11031.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好我們恢復開會接下來進行詢答的委員是黃國昌委員謝謝主席有請局長國家局局長蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11038.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11060.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
謝謝主席委員長也許我們上一次討論的主題也就是關鍵基礎設施對我們的國家安全非常的重要2023年我們修正了22項法律針對關鍵基礎設施我們要強化對他們的保護避免我們的關鍵基礎設施成為勞動攻擊的對象癱瘓國家臺灣整體的國家防衛的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11067.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11082.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
上次我跟您提過包括了軍港軍機場、導彈基地這些軍事設備為什麼沒有納入關鍵基礎設施然後您跟我說你會回去討論、會去了解這是我們上一次諮詢的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11085.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11110.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這兩天老共對台灣發動軍事演習的時候左手邊的照片是我們的電視新聞台的記者拍我們的左營軍港的照片這個照片登出來了以後一直在關心台灣國家安全的一群學者就公開發出質疑這個是什麼這是台灣主力軍港的海警第一排嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11111.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11127.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他為什麼會提出這樣子的質疑那這樣的質疑是說如果到時候發生狀況的時候他在這麼短的距離當中根本不用保彈射用尖射飛彈就直接打到我們的軍艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11131.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11157.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這個是為什麼上次我跟你談關鍵基礎設施附近我們必須要把它列管非常重要的理由對於學者所提出這樣子的憂慮局長認為有沒有道理還是杞人憂天他們在上面講的很直接堅設飛彈直接站在這個記者拍的這個地方直接往下面軍艦打下去就擊中了覺得這樣子的憂慮有沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11158.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11159.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那除了重視以外呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11176.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11178.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
需要多久?所以你就只能反映給他們嗎?當然對所以主責的應該是國防部部長是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11195.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11209.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
以國防部為主要的業管機關你上次跟國防部討論了以後針對我們上次所討論出來的該劃進關鍵基礎設施的沒有劃進去的這件事情國防部給你的回應是什麼說他們也會重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11210.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11237.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
國防部針對一些軍事設施他們有他們自己的所謂軍方的關鍵設施的概念在那委員上次我們在討論的是針對行政院系統的關鍵設施那我記得除了委員以外應該洪森和委員也在注意那個台馬的海底電纜部分那這部分在9月會議我們已經有積極的反應我們一樣一樣來啦就是說我還是希望國安局可能要告訴我們相關的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11239.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11263.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
到底是一開始規劃的時候就有問題還是神經已經大調到知覺麻痺了到底是一開始規劃就有問題還是已經神經大調到知覺麻痺了與其花一堆資源去做宣傳去做propaganda不如把實際的事情做好這個是我的立場那為什麼這件事情重要因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11264.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11282.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
後來我打到相關部會的回函他們好像認為說兩岸人民關係條例相關的辦法有限制入資的法律依據現行法已經足夠了那國防部也有個要塞堡壘地帶法但問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11283.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11302.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
是什麼?問題是這個要塞堡壘地帶法有真的依照法律公告該公告的地方嗎?我把清單列出來了以後我發現情況就不是這個樣子第一個有該畫沒有畫的第二個有畫了以後該公告沒有公告的那第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11305.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11329.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
即使公告了以後附近現建的規定是不是有具體的落實具體來講是什麼具體來講是我們空有法律空有口號沒有執行沒有執行這個是我希望國安局能夠去告訴相關部會不能放任這種荒謬的狀況繼續進行下去局長讚不讚好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11332.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11339.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
主席站起來我只最後講一句話你有依法公告要塞堡壘附近卻高樓林立等於是要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範沒有被落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11361.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11389.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
沒有被落實的情況到底會變成什麼狀況就變成是要塞啊是關鍵基礎設施啊但是變成什麼海警第一排這個我覺得在國家安全上面國安局一定要重視跟其他部會說清楚該落實沒有落實就絕對是一件嚴重的事情局長可以嗎可以我們來反映好謝謝謝謝同國昌委員局長請回好接下來進行詢問委員賴世寶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11398.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11424.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
謝謝主席,有請國安局的蔡局長來,局長請好,謝謝主席,老人好局長你好請問你啊,台灣的軍力在全世界排名第幾?看不同機構有不同的指標你隨便講一個都有,我看過的最強的,最前面的排名 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11426.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11434.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我的印象應該大概在十幾左右我的印象我不知道有沒有最新的資訊我們的經貿實力大概十幾你知道嗎經貿實力 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11450.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11473.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
現在好像台灣是第22大經濟體吧?第16第16?謝謝委員我原來以為說我們軍事大概人家ranking也大概16左右請問以色列第幾?以色列的軍力全世界軍力第一名是不是?美國第二名呢?第二名 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11485.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11513.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
對阿我剛講的意思是我的印象已經是之前的前幾名大概不外就是美國啦齁俄國中共這些國家大概都這些國家大概會因為指標的不同會順序會有調整我沒有什麼陷阱給你啦就是我們問很前線的問題阿對但我的印象是之前的印象對就是如果沒有含核武第二名是老共啦如果含核武第二名是俄羅斯啦就大概這個樣子啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11514.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11540.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那以我們這樣子我們不管是30、60、80、20的台灣也不會有外賣啊啊為什麼就立憲2024年這樣叫做世界的這樣要脖子給我繞到在那裡你給我們賣穿整個我們都是談評啦我們要做什麼事你不是說哎呀我跟你Lock allLock住馬上所有的大台抓台 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11541.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11568.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
變成我們的國防部 國安單位變成一個播報員怎麼會這個樣子 阿都閃停阿 你看這個沒有 國防部都有他的一個應酬的機制 都有所謂應酬 老百姓看到說 他越來越靠近了2028沒有這麼靠近就2022縮起來了阿真的像螺柱或者雷柱都可以螺柱那種感覺阿 對不對 台灣老百姓不舒服阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11569.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11573.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
對中共對台的脅迫這個臺灣社會沒有人會接受啦但是問題你們是政府單位啊臺灣人民把這個所有的這記 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11584.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11589.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
委員說明那是情報情資的部分情報情資的部分我們當然盡可能透明化讓社會可以了解中共軍事動態這一部分國防部已經有一個對外說明的機制但是應處的部分國防部絕對有調動我們相關海空兵力以及鋼海巡署署長也特別強調了 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11612.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11628.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
沒有啦 因為我時間有限 我們的主席都很嚴格的 我趕快把他講完 我告訴你 老闆現在看到的時候 來 他給我跑來一英尺 我把他擋回去一英尺 按著釣 結果不是勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11628.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11633.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
各位說明一下所有的船艦喔 國防部這邊都沒有讓這些船艦進入到我們24海裡 完全沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11647.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11649.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
請問你這次他提早收兵啊人家有人說這是虎頭蛇尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11677.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11693.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
對 我想中共在進行對台軍演我剛才跟其他委員做說明了不是只有用兩岸的框架在看他必須要考慮到區域跟國際政治所以各種因素我相信他都會列入評估他提早收兵是不是不願意有沒有這個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11695.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11711.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
說台海不要變成美國的十月驚奇因為他們十一月要投票了October surprise他不要變成這個題目因為這可能各種可能性都有包括到就這個對都有各種可能性都有還有其他可能性這還包括到 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11712.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11733.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
在10月10號到12號剛好是東協峰會那個時間點也是不適合大動干戈在這邊軍演的而且東協峰會大家都會質疑中共在南海的擴張所以我可以說國安局長相信認為台海不願意老公不願意變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11737.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11755.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這是委員的說法這是委員的說法但我跟委員說的是中共在進行軍演他的評估不是只有兩岸的問題他必須要有全面國際跟區域政治的一個評估這是我的觀點我很喜歡來問你可是你每次都不給答案有我盡量來回答謝謝委員我不到答案我不到便那個養豬我頭皮癢你就給我抓手我都不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11763.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11764.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
主席有請我們國安局局長來蔡局長請局長要喝個水嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11792.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11810.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
對 委員長我想先跟請問幾個問題賴清德總統在520的談話當中希望重啟大陸學生來台就學請問局長就國安局的立場你們怎麼看是否歡迎入門來台對於兩岸正常的交流我們都保持尊重那也不會有任何意見有沒有掌握一些隱憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11811.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11835.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
交流過程當中我們當然也會去盤點過去交流過程當中有沒有一些有異常的案例那這部分我們會特別來做我想這個部分我希望得到你的態度剛剛你有說歡迎嗎對正常的交流沒有問題的交流社會交流我們都尊重好那另外想跟您請問一下國家安全的策略以及總體戰略跟政策到底我們現在是台美關係穩定為第一優先還是台海和平穩定為第一優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11835.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11838.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那局長你是否同意把台灣推向戰爭不是一個愛台灣的表現?所以你同意這句話嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11858.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11874.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
對,我們不希望台海發生戰爭這也是為什麼維持台海和穩的現狀是我們對外政策優先的考量好,那我們最近有看到這個海軍司令堂華他有說到解放軍已經準備好了只要隨時願意就可以封鎖台灣的一個言論局長你怎麼看待這樣的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11874.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11899.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對我想就國防軍事的角度來講那我們的國軍單位一向都是料底重寬那對於中共各種可能的犯台的方案也都有做非常整命的評估不只是評估也會在實兵的漢光兵推的演習的過程當中去做驗證我想也有媒體指出因為聯合力艦現在A B陸續已經上場了以後有C有D有E有F我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11900.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11926.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
甚至有人預告一年當中可能會有三次軍演我們之間有掌握到任何的情資嗎這邊要跟委員特別講一下這個背景因為事實上中共在台海的軍事活動它除了是針對台灣以外它有它區域軍事戰略的考量包括在東海以及我們現在討論的台海以及南海它是整體在看的我們有沒有掌握到它有可能去做聯合利建CDEF |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11926.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11927.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
當然但是我想要強調的事情是當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11943.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11961.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
就像剛剛我們所說的我們台灣所有普遍民眾都是沒辦法認同這樣子恐嚇威脅的直播我們都一致的譴責這樣子的行為但是我要說明的是當我們掌握到它有可能軍演的頻繁次數增加的時候不管是不是聯合利劍哪怕是盾劍 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11963.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11963.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
你可以認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11983.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12008.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
委員講的確實也是我們在應處這些中共軍演一個很重要的一個考量也就是我們一定要堅持我們的底線捍衛我們的國家主權跟周邊海空域的安全但是過程當中必須要做相關必要的風險的控管所以我希望內部會議你不用跟我講你們講什麼但我希望你們要注重這個所謂的因為兩岸缺乏溝通了但如果有所謂的軍演變成擦槍走火SOP該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12010.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12037.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我們該如何降到最低我們該如何把這個誤會當下馬上處理這是很重要的一個SOP內部你們有在研議嗎國防部這邊對於共軍基建進階的一個應處的程序都有一套SOP那這套SOP是經過長年的一個運作的經驗所制定的套SOP那這個SOP現在看起來因為對岸也封鎖跟我們拒絕溝通嘛那這SOP你覺得還有用嗎有沒有需要更精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12038.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12055.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
是 我大概知道委員關切的那個問題意識在哪裡也就是說我們的SOP就是讓中共不能夠進犯到我們的二四海裡那跟委員報告的是在歷次這幾次的演習包括剛剛結束的2024B的演習共軍的基建都沒有讓他進來到二四海裡我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12056.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12079.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我知道剛剛你就有講了嘛24海里是我們絕對要堅守的那我現在就是說未來所發生的ABCDEF聯合利建這樣子的軍演次數增加的時候我們在沒有溝通管道的情況之下SOP能夠避免擦槍走火一定要再精進一定要再研議一下這個部分那最後我想請問一下目前國安局的情資中共對台動武 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12079.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12105.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
是否有相關的情資又是幾年內會發生有沒有這樣子的條件這樣子的啟動你們有沒有這樣的情資跟委員說明一下就中共目前我們看的各種情資並沒有情資來證明他即將在台海發動戰爭立即要發動戰爭沒有沒有這樣的情資但是他們各種的軍事準備或軍事的演訓不斷的在進行特別9月到10月這個階段他才剛剛完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12106.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12134.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
全軍戰略演習那目前還在做一些普測考的科目所以他們相關的動態我們都有完整的掌握局長辛苦了我們繼續來努力加油就經過我剛說的擦槍走火一定要避免全面捍衛中華民國我們一定認同好不好好謝謝我們的局長謝謝聽委員來局長請回接下來進行詢答委員鄭振強委員鄭振強委員鄭振強委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來進行詢答委員是洪森漢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12151.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12179.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
謝謝主席那請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 黃委員好嗯 局長今年5月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈北洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12181.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12199.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製的我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12200.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12220.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
美國眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12221.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12249.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出廠的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12250.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12278.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說就算是非中國製的起重機有可能他如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12279.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12289.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛剛回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對 港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12291.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12318.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12320.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12348.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12349.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12352.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
居然我想這事情可不可以請你再跟韓港局或者是我們這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12378.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12379.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12406.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12433.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們很清楚知道台灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫台灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12434.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12449.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12451.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12477.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛剛同學也在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12479.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12506.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎?局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎?局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12510.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12538.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這部分業管是交換部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交換部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業他中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12539.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12563.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12564.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12592.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但他們一直覺得會被取代可是我說就像這一次美國原本港口的罷工的事件罷工事件也影響到他們物資的運送那還好現在後來當然後來解決所以這個供應鏈運輸的韌性的問題今天講的是我們就大部分被掐在中國及船員的身上的時候我們沒有歧視可是我們確實會懷疑真正當問題發生的時候或者是緊張發生的時候他會為我們工作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12594.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12624.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以局長你現在該怎麼辦同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12625.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12645.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
要提出態度要告訴我們的國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12647.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12675.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
可以嗎?這我們來注意我們要一個專案來去處理這個問題我們來注意好不好?好就像我在這邊現在要說的我要再說一次現在我們不談那個罷工的問題可是相對應的這些我剛才說到兩個部分請國安局研議全面清查我們的港口設施是否有中國製的監控設備如何來保障港口的安全它可能不是破壞你的關鍵基礎設施但它用一個額外的設施來監控你的關鍵基礎設施現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個下面這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12677.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12695.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
局長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,我跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12696.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12724.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這件事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12728.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12740.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好謝謝洪森漢委員來局長請回接下來詢答委員高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在接下來進行詢答委員吳立華委員謝謝主席有請局長來局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12760.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12786.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
蔡主席 委員好局長好我是山地原住民的立法委員那麼我相當關心國家的安全問題當然我也很關心我們原住民在這其中所扮演的角色所以我先找幾個新聞我念一下關鍵字你聽聽看有海峽兩岸少數民族交流協會收受廣西台辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12788.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12790.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
現金資助免費旅遊招待 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12792.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12818.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
競選後援會網路宣傳拉票委託指示贊助支付獎金匯入銀行帳戶回報競選進度討論選戰策略規劃甚至是看到判刑才5個月4個月一顆髮金緩刑5年局長中國借選看起來已經是明確的事實對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12820.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12845.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
對那我們掌握到多少我們從去年到現在國安單位查辦的這些有關共諜包括借選的案件應該有八十幾件那判刑的結果起訴的大概應該有四十幾件那您覺得如何我們很辛苦收集情資然後每次送給檢調到了法院那我們的反滲透法看起來很像是塑膠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12847.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12866.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
對,就目前的法律條文的規範來講我們當然必須在情報的部分來支援檢調單位來查查相關的案件盡量來鞏固那個法律要件那讓這些案件送到檢方跟院方比較容易遇案我這樣提出來就是希望國安局這個部分因為我們覺得這是破口話 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12868.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12893.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
你了解我的意思吧我知道那為什麼進來了其實在我們的立法院我講一句實在話大家也都實有所聞也是不爭的事實許多的助理也都會講出來太多太多的辦公室從以前到現在都能夠接得到國台辦的電話省台辦的電話有時候會問說好久沒來啦什麼時候帶人來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12898.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12924.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
甚至他們說因為統戰的經費很多花不完要核銷這也都是不爭的事實對吧對就相關的一個兩岸的互動我剛才跟其他委員講正常的交流我們沒有意見但是只要涉及到這種滲透的有違反到反滲透法所謂的發展組織的借選的或是來善惑影響公共安全秩序的所以你們都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12924.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12952.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
對這個部分的樣態我們會一直來持續關注因為我們也覺得原住民是個破口立法院更是個大破口啊因為我們常常可以看到新聞報導現在可能也都利用原住民的議題來去包裹那像這個之前引起公民團體抗議也是因為這樣的一個因素那我是要提到是說現在那個落地招待啊已經變了 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12954.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12971.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們地方的人都說哎喲怎麼那個大陸那邊都沒有喜歡我們老人了都要年輕人了他現在聚焦在元清對那你看看兩萬四千八新疆九天一般旅行社一模一樣的行程要六萬三千九百起 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12972.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12993.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那我也知道說有很多校園統戰團有做相關系列報導那這些去的年輕人回來呢都說只是交朋友現在手段越來越柔軟了懷柔手段溫水煮蛙甚至他們自己去了還能說哎呀中國總算找到對的方法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12995.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
13013.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那請教一下國安局有掌握嗎有現在大概這方面的交流中共會特別鎖定到元清的部分那他們主要是透過一些文化的體育的那另外還有包括中共的地方的政府也會舉辦一些少數民族的文化活動來邀請元清過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
13014.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
13034.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那這是第一部分主要的樣台第二部分是假如涉及到那個費用的部分那假如有一些協力團體來引介這些的交流活動那他是沒有相關理由的授權的證照的話這是我們另外一個查辦的重點那局長我在這邊只是要講我們都覺得好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
13035.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
13036.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我舉個例子像是日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
13051.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
13076.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
或者是美國他們都在擔憂一件事情因為中資中國買了好多土地啊甚至是美國有66%的美國民意他們是希望能禁止中國在他們美國買土地局長我要跟你講這些年輕人假設他回來他的個資他當人頭我們現在有進法補償對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
13079.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
13088.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這個禁法補償借名登記還看不出誰買你在日本買地在美國買地還看得出來喔我們這個原保地是要借人頭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
13090.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
13112.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
你們有沒有查過有多少有多少被中資買走沒有這部分假如中資或入籍人士要來採買我們的相關的不動產的話那內政部有個審查機制那我們會受邀去參加這個審查機制那審查重點就在於說採買的人有沒有黨政軍的背景採買的不動產是不是在重要的軍事設施敏感的設施周邊那局長我跟你講是 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
13114.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
13122.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
他們會不會買一些軍事像您知不知道連我們的關鍵設施都有可能被滲透他們有交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
13126.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
13144.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
國安局有掌握嗎?因為時間的關係我只是希望說我們都知道這些是認知作戰但是我們的國人都不怕那我覺得國安局你們掌握最多最多最多的情資都在你們的手上要揭露啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
13144.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
13144.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
13170.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
13193.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
可以在一周之內也可以來跟我說明掌握的情形好我們來一個穩做最後的報告謝謝局長謝謝主席好接下來進行詢答委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在接下來進行詢答委員是翁曉琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
13205.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
13209.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
有請局長沒有開喔這可能沒有電來 局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
13214.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
13235.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
謝謝主席 歐委員好是 局長您好我想前兩天中共實施聯合立見的環台軍演其實也造成國內民眾的大家人心惶惶本席是有看見賴清德總統的臉書上面有PO了一個召開國安高層的會議照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
13237.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
13253.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
當中的局長和國防部部長、院長其實都在會議當中可是我在這邊想請教就是不知道你們有沒有討論出什麼結果你們要如何殺出重圍然後要怎麼樣突破中共對台灣的封鎖 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
13253.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
13270.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
有,跟委員說明一下因為這次的演習大概事前都有做一些情資的分析跟研判那也大概都知道在哪個時間點可能會發動怎麼樣的演習所以當天在國安高層會議的內容當中各單位都有做相關的提報那總統也有做指財式那也有對外說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
13271.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13282.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
是我不知道你們會不會都是一些文人在談如何這個突破這個軍事封鎖在現場沒有看到好像有這個我們高階的將領在場參與討論沒有因為這個會議的現場是國安高層會議那主要是國防部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13289.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13290.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
國防部長來開會之前已經在國軍召開會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13311.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13327.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這類的會議你們能夠有多點專業人士少點政治人物的口水在裡面都是各部會的首長非常專業接下來我想下一個議題就是最近其實行政院已經開始採取一連串的民防措施那麼從昨天在高中發這個年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13328.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13329.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
國防部有對外說明並沒有所謂存放彈藥這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13351.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13377.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
對於6月30號但是現在是在作戰規劃裡面就有這種規劃所以在暫時的這個囤放彈藥的這個議題安全嗎從國安的角度來看到這件事情不重要嗎只有國家安全重要人民的生命財產安全都不重要嗎都很重要那接下來我想請教的就是說您知道我們近年來在這個彈藥庫曾經發生過我們的彈藥庫發生爆炸意外事件有多少件 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13379.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13405.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這應該要國防部月管單要才有相關的數字我希望這不只是國安國防部的問題其實國安單委也要指導那本席在這邊告訴你我們這個有看了一個統計資料軍方在30年來彈藥庫的爆炸事件發生24件24次的事件有20人死亡89人輕重傷這其中還不包括就是中間有搬運彈藥等等這些所發生的意外的傷害所以呢本席要講就是說其實在宮廟存放彈藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13406.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13433.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
就安全性來講這是極其危險的不知道你們有沒有實際上告訴這些已經簽訂公廟協定的這些公廟主知道有這樣的一個狀況因為這是國防部的夜館我們還是尊重他們的一些這是一個國安高層這個會議它是涵蓋這些民防軍防等等這些全部都在內的所以我希望國安局要重視這些事情那接下來我們再看一下如果從法律的角度來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13434.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13463.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
根本不應該發聲可以在公廟存放彈藥從全民防衛動員準備法第29條裡面的規定就很清楚像圖書館療養院其他慈善機構的場所建築物設備還有人民日常生活所需的這些常會接觸到的設備就不應該存放然後接下來在國際法上同樣的在日內瓦公約裡面清清楚楚的講就是軍民要區分原則有一個軍民區分原則所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13463.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13484.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
民用物體還包含像對文物、宗教禮拜場所等等這些保護這是國家要做的事情民用物體不應該成為被攻擊、被報復的對象所以如果當我們的宗教場所、學校或是其他的慈善用途場所被利用為軍事用途的時候就可能成為軍事攻擊的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13485.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13502.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
對啊但是國防部有說明說他們沒有說要去存放是那所以國安都沒有意見國安局都沒有意見這事情我真的覺得很不可思議這是整個國安的一環那接下來我要再講我後來理解這不是國防部的政策我還必須要說的就是說如果說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13504.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13530.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
在宮廟存放彈藥是這麼危險的事情當我們的學生可能未來被利用成為軍事攻擊目標的時候這件事情難道不應該要向民眾講清楚嗎要把這個事實的嚴重性要講清楚不要忘記了這聯合國他雖然說譴責哈馬斯這個有攻擊平民可是哈馬斯也是說我攻擊的對象也都是軍事對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13532.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13550.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這個都是軍事目標所以呢這個部分的話希望國安高層在研商相關的議題的時候不能夠只是說由國防部我不知道賴部長我不知道這個顧立雄顧部長他到底了不了解相關的這個法律的問題還有這個軍事安全和人民安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13550.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13575.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這都必須要在國安高層會議的時候國安局也應該要提出你們的意見而不應該怠惰所以我們不希望當公廟未來成為人肉盾牌必須要積極地檢討公廟存放的代價和法律一句話就是各位說明一下全社會的防衛韌性跟全民接兵要去打仗這是兩個不同的概念那一混淆的話會造成一些不必要的社會恐慌事實上就是你們在混淆問題是你們在混淆你們在模糊那個界線 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13580.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13594.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
一旦發生戰爭的時候現在通過空中的定位量子地圖看得清清楚楚你哪一個宮廟哪一個學校裡面有存放彈藥他就很容易合理化這個就是軍事目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13595.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13602.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
對跟我們講的全社會熱線這是國際社會在俄羅斯戰爭中高度關注的議題但是沒有像台灣這麼的危險這個民進黨政府執政以來已經造成台灣已經成為全世界最危險的地方而且很平衡戰危所以這個議題對我們來說很重要我希望就是官員也能夠在盡快一個禮拜時間給我一個有關於法律的評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13621.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13622.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
主席謝謝 麻煩請蔡局長來 局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13649.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13670.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
謝謝主席侯委員好蔡局長我特別看了一下我們國安局的業務報告其實國家安全是我們重中之重那我們也認為是說大家要共同來捍衛跟維護那其中我想請教一下是說對於我們不管是能源等相關的一些這種能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13671.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13690.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
算不算是重要的戰略物資因為我們有人講說電力國力這都非常重要是是是依照那個政案管理法我們剛提到的都是關鍵設施是關鍵設施那我不知道說局長有沒有看到說昨天這個經濟部部長講說我們要讓拉電纜或是說用船運輸這個電從菲律賓從外國回來到臺灣供我們臺灣的這個企業使用有沒有相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13701.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13725.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
有看到這樣的報導我們之前有評估過嗎?從國外來輸入電給我們台灣2300萬人使用對因為這個是可能經濟部在評估的方案那還沒有啟動到一個機制請國安局去提供意見那假如有的話我們會提出我們的但是部長也不用他就直接對讓公眾都知道所以說現在大家都知道哇原來部長有這樣的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13726.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13740.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
所以第一他沒有跟國安局這邊討論過或說國安局沒有收到經濟部有正式還沒有還沒有沒有那第二現在大家也都知道了那局長以您專業的角度來判斷一下我們跟菲律賓沒有邦交 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13741.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13763.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
菲律賓兩年前他們的領導人對於相對來說他是比較親中國大陸的政策的現在的領導人相對來講是跟中國大陸的關係比較淡但是菲律賓的一個政經情勢您的通篇的一個業務報告裡面也都在講我們政經情勢跟我們國家的安全的部分菲律賓 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13764.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13779.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
跟我們的關係有沒有真的很close到如果說我們今天有10%的電力20%的電力是由菲律賓這邊運輸進來他有辦法確保是說他會一直運輸嗎因為我們現在還不知道提供給予我們現在還不太知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13782.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13787.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
因為這個就已經牽涉到國際情勢那如果說菲律賓這個國家跟我們沒有那麼close甚至他們不是我們的邦交國的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13799.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13816.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那今天如果假設他有他的領導人換了然後變成是比較親中國大陸你的通篇報告裡面都認為中國大陸是我們現在最大的家鄉敵那這樣子會不會我們的經濟我們的發電命脈國家安全的重要的物資跟能源被掌握在別人的手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13817.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13834.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這樣到底是強化民主夥伴的合作關係還是弱化我們的國家安全理解委員的關切以及背後的那個問題意識我充分理解但因為我看那個經濟部可能他還在初步的一個如果經濟部報上來以國安單位專業評估你會怎麼建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13838.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13854.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我們會先看經濟部的內容到底方案是什麼比如說剛委員提到的是日本是菲律賓那放在哪一個地點那那個地點的基礎設施完不完善那以及可能連通的管道網絡該怎麼鋪設這要有一個全面的方案在評估比較能夠從國安的角度來發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13856.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13881.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
有講的也沒講耶對阿但這是業力經過整顧過程局長不用那麼的小心啦我現在很直接的講我說實在話我們都還沒有講因為也有媒體就已經講是說哇好像3月4月5月已經有廠商去菲律賓有做前期投資喔所以現在部長去講的話是不是跟這個廠商有一問一答是要拉抬股價還是什麼不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13881.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13909.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但是至少從國安的角度來說能源電力我們有辦法依賴你今天不是在台灣今天在台灣有任何一個電廠大家就已經叫翻了就沒有想到我們居然是說遠在幾百公里別的國家不是我們的領土我們要把我們的電放在那邊然後靠著是合約靠著是商業模式把那個電給買回來那如果說今天有任何的狀況我都不講說甚至海底電纜有沒有什麼樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13911.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13935.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
你覺得這對於國安來講到底他是增強我們的國安還是催化我們的國安?對,我想後面我們來跟經濟部多了解一些他們相關規劃的細節那假如掌握細節的話我們再來做局長用專業來講啦如果說真的不可行或者是說真的是可能會圖利的狀況的話以國安局的角度來說好好的提出專業那另外一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13936.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13956.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
蔡總統蔡前總統現在有出訪歐洲那也媒體報導是說他可能也會到前往美國那我想只要是我們中華民國現任總統現任元首前元首只要是代表青天白日蠻地紅代表中華民國出訪我們沒有拒絕或是沒有不願意的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13958.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13984.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那這個部分我們國安局有沒有掌握是說那對岸有沒有可能會有什麼反制措施這我們會特別注意因為就國安局的權責來講法律的權責我們必須要提供現任總統安危的保護所以對於總統出訪的地點路線出現的場合以及會不會有當地中共僑團的動員那這部分我們都有在密切的做那我們有評估過嗎因為現在有可能蔡前總統他前往美國有沒有評估說對岸有可能也會有什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13985.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
14005.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
美國這一部分蔡前總統辦公室還沒有對外有說明有不適合做評論是但媒體報導出來啦對那如果說有的話如果說真的成行國安局也會做評估不管現任總統要到哪個國家去我們大概都會做一個評估安全的評估因為這是我們的法律責任還是要保障我們的元首安全當然當然謝謝洪本凱委員 局長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
14008.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
14030.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那委員口頭質詢為其答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供但是如果委員跟局長你剛才答應了兩位一週內另有約定期限者從其所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
14031.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
14057.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那以上如果涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束那我們期待我們通常業務報告後都要審查預算我們期待我們委員會相關的預算早一天能夠送進委員會進行審查因為試射不管是國安國防都是重要的事情我們希望業務報告後我們更盡快來審查我們相關的預算好今天會議到此結束散會 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:32 - 12:26:00 |
| IVOD_ID |
16176 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16176 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-4 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-16T08:31:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-16T12:26:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |