IVOD_ID |
161718 |
IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161718 |
日期 |
2025-05-21 |
會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-12 |
會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
會議資料.屆 |
11 |
會議資料.會期 |
3 |
會議資料.會次 |
12 |
會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
影片種類 |
Clip |
開始時間 |
2025-05-21T11:26:46+08:00 |
結束時間 |
2025-05-21T11:51:53+08:00 |
影片長度 |
00:25:07 |
支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbd069b00cfc902ff3cdb65d50a7385bb6db0f420b3783afbd6687b0770fe110b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
委員發言時間 |
11:26:46 - 11:51:53 |
會議時間 |
2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議(事由:邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告,並備質詢。) |
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別說太久了好 謝謝主席是不是請我們林次長 |
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市長其實台大住院醫師的性侵這個個案事實上在一發生的時候不管是醫院地方北市衛生局或者是我們中央新聞剛出來的時候都是用醫事法第25條第二款要判刑確定才會送懲戒 |
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然後這種法律概念大家都覺得荒謬無比然後醫師利用這個醫療職務機會而犯罪事實上同時已經也違背了這個醫療倫理那如果有高度社會矚目立法院排案要報告了次長就改口了就是說不用第二款我們有我沒有叫你回答你們當時出來的新聞稿新聞大家都看得出來 |
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當時所有的第一時間地方衛生局、中央、衛福部、醫院、僱主通通都是用要判刑確定或移送懲戒都一開始都是這樣子所以你今天當然是改口了因為今天要到立法院來報告怎麼可以不改口那我不是說這樣子不行而是執行業務違背醫學倫理我現在要問你是說第一個 |
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有沒有統計這五年醫師因為妨害性自主案件而依據醫師法第25條第二款利用業務機會的犯罪行為經判刑確定而移送懲戒的案例數有多少第一個 |
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第二個第四款因為執行業務違背醫學倫理而移赴懲戒的案例數又有多少這五年內你可以告訴我這個數字嗎報告委員我這邊就是說這五年內的話 |
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看一下現在是好5年內的話我們在110年他是有一位醫師是依照醫師法20就是我們講的25條第二懲戒法25條第二款廢止他的醫師證書那另外一個案子我再問你數數量就好了我現在手頭上你接著你不用移 |
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你不用跟我一一的報告問你這五年內因為妨礙性自主喔然後判刑確定被移送懲戒或者是用第四款更寬鬆的為被醫學輪迷而交付懲戒的案件數有多少你就告訴我就好了我手上這個資料是姓平的案子的話這邊是1234 |
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我是第二款第四款分開的你為什麼要這樣子回答第二款是判刑確定的一送懲戒有幾個第四款因為違背醫學倫理而交付懲戒的個案有幾個 |
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我們這邊這幾案多數都是這一個包含性投訴性騷擾案然後懲戒那其中有幾個個案有三個個案是判決之後以第二款來移送懲戒你講的是多久的時間以內最近對三年內三年內對有判刑確定交付懲戒的有三個判刑確定的案子在我現在手上的資料裡面110年有一位判刑確定的案子然後在 |
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110年的那個就是現在正在7月份台北市政府要召開懲戒會另外一個是111年的那個也是在因為這個案子已經提出為什麼這種問題要回答的這樣2266呢那因為被醫學倫理而交付的有幾件 |
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違背醫學倫理的案子我們現在手上沒有這樣的資料對嘛 所以嘛你們全部都是等到判刑確定才會交付懲戒啦你們的標準就是要判刑確定啦今天醫事司司長為什麼沒有來我們要講這些問題是說狼醫啊就是由群體依依相互相怨包庇出來的 |
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你們都用最低的標準一定要踩到刑責確定了才願意交付懲戒你們就是這樣子啊我要跟你講這個案子我要講一個我們地方三窮的故事 |
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你也掌握說因為妨礙性自主案件的醫生在司法判決以前都可以繼續執業啊所以有一個叫孔凡錦精神科醫師這個個案你有聽說過嗎孔凡錦後來已經被我們廢止醫師證書你不要這樣講在他在他被你們調照以前啊 |
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發生了第一件是2021年的4月16號在診間強制性交然後呢三個月不到他再次犯下利用權勢性交而且被害者是16歲以上未滿18歲的少女 |
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兩岸最後當然是判決有罪但是呢 他是幾年才判決有罪 你知道嗎2024年在2021到2024年之間他沒有裁定前恐反警仍然繼續執業而且還招人檢舉他的恐反警的這個診所名稱改名為同安診所 |
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而且用他哥哥的名字孔繁中去掛名但是實際看整的還是孔繁井所以呢這代表什麼代表說在司法判決以前沒有定業以前你奈何不了他可是事實上不是喔法律法律有工具耶可以讓你們在判決以前 |
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就可以去給他移送懲戒老闆委員齁孔凡請醫師這個案子事實上在112年8月2號精神科醫學會就通知新北市衛生局來啟動這個醫師懲戒所以後來是在112年8月18日我覺得你不要把責任說是地方政府的問題啦中央跟地方都一樣因為上情下效你們就是這個原則 |
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你從中央你今天才可以跟大家跟各地方衛生局宣示不用刑事判決就可以移送懲戒這個公文你發的出去嗎你可以發出去嗎我們可以再一次提醒大家依照醫師法第五條好那我就等著看你這張公文因為社會沒有辦法接受司法判決才可以移送懲戒 |
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更不要講法律明明有規定而主管機關從中央到地方都刻意要選擇判刑確定才要移送成政界那我現在要跟你講喔政大法學院劉鴻恩副教授他有講過委員他曲解我的說法 |
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國外 我都還沒講他講什麼 你不要這麼緊張 認為劉鴻恩曲解你劉鴻恩有沒有曲解你我不知道 但我現在講劉鴻恩現在我想是他的制度面他怎麼說國外醫生利用診療機會性侵病患 只要是被檢舉甚至是還沒有被判刑但依照主管機關或公會調查的結果 |
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就已經先被停業處分 調扣執照 吊銷執照的案例不生沒舉而且 重點就在這裡醫師的資料 只要你涉案了 都公開的 |
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美國紐澤西州一名婦產科醫生因為診療時不當觸摸病患還沒有判刑就先調過執照同樣的在紐澤西州2025年2月兩個醫師因為在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為沒有判刑就被吊銷執照 |
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加拿大安大略省的一個醫師在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為所以在沒有判刑的狀況就被調供執照美國的阿拉巴馬州對於病人診療時有性方面的不當行為沒有判刑就被調校執照劉鴻恩他這裡沒有講他攻擊你我現在講他講 |
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他說 證據調查有很多種 刑事責任的刑法責任 當然需要刑事司法的調查但是不是只有刑事責任一種耶 這個行為涉及到行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任 |
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不一定要透過司法調查捏我們的法律裡面像民事責任民事責任需不需要司法調查完成才能夠進行民事責任的審理就你所知道的需要嗎 |
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597.921 |
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所以其實也跟我們報告就是說像相關的這幾個案子其實包含我們之前我們在大院也通過的性平三法以醫師來說他所在職業過程中所發生的這些不當的行為不論是在性別工作平等法性別平等教育法或者是性騷擾防治法都移送懲戒了嗎 都移送懲戒了嗎對 但是你們都給他移送懲戒了嗎沒有 沒有 |
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你們剛才講的數據你自己講的一清二楚都是刑事判決才移送懲戒這五年裡面你講不出來一涉案沒有經過刑事判決行政責任倫理責任還有我們剛剛講的懲戒責任都沒有被究責到都沒有移送到懲戒會去懲戒 |
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所以我就跟你講台灣光是司法制度台灣的司法制度的民事訴訟都不需要等到刑事判決才可以才需要負起民事責任沒有這個東西是一樣的道理如果你們是用一個比較高的標準他是等於利用職務利用執行業務去對人家性侵性騷耶這不是道德倫理了這是法律上都踩到界限了是 |
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對不對 行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任 刑法責任各自有不同的要件和認定標準所以呢各自的調查程序和懲戒的標準程序都不會一樣啊 |
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所以你們現在看到的實務面從中央到地方就是要求判決後才有移送懲戒你們的不成文規定就是這樣子啊你剛才五年內的統計你沒有辦法說出一件涉案就交一副懲戒會沒有你剛才的統計資料就是沒有你在這裡嘴巴說你沒有這麼認為你們實務面都是這樣子做 |
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而你還在這裡嘴巴硬不願意承認當你承認你們有這個問題當你們承認有這個問題你承認然後你說你們未來會改進那麼我們是可以接受的你現在是我們沒有我們通通都沒有你現在就是說我通通都沒有 |
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內部處理太過保守而且其實也在藉這個機會因為接下來在7月份台北市衛生局要針對三位醫師的狀況來開懲戒我們也藉這個機會希望大家在懲戒的過程能夠有一個比較有效的作用我再問你一個問題 狼醫職業婦產科有嗎 |
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郎醫只有婦產科有嗎?精神科、兒科的郎醫就算派行以後還仍然繼續職業你們還沒收了民眾的執行權今天要討論的是到婦產科醫師這個看診大家都提心吊膽但是你知道有個兒科醫師2022年記性男醫師 |
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789.923 |
transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是一個女童的主治醫師 兒科的一時誤想利用而女童求診時為女童與陪同母親實施心臟超音波檢查疑似多次手持超音波探頭 以手抓住碰觸乳房乳頭的方式為猥褻行為涉及猥褻行為法院審理也判刑了七個月緩刑兩年 但判刑七個月緩刑兩年 但 |
transcript.whisperx[35].start |
790.902 |
transcript.whisperx[35].end |
818.208 |
transcript.whisperx[35].text |
沒有吊銷醫生執照沒有這個醫師懲戒他們後來做成的決議是警告我們也認為事實上希望大家能夠針對這樣尤其是未成年個案事實上醫界應該要有更強的自律才對我們要的是知情權我以後要去看醫生我都要先到衛福部的官網上去看這個醫生有沒有交付懲戒的紀錄這個醫生有沒有這個涉及這個刑事案件 |
transcript.whisperx[36].start |
819.468 |
transcript.whisperx[36].end |
843.757 |
transcript.whisperx[36].text |
而且更何況兒少法規定49條是97條猥褻兒童得公佈加害人性命我們更嚴謹的狼屍兒虐幼保員有定期公開的機制甚至涉及到性別不當對待的事件會處以終身或幾年內不可任用也沒有辦法進到教保機關繼續服務可是你們對狼醫 狼醫對兒童猥褻 |
transcript.whisperx[37].start |
848.118 |
transcript.whisperx[37].end |
855.68 |
transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你們是輕輕放下而且還能夠繼續持續的看診服務而且查不到 查詢不到我們性侵案零容忍你們這個平台雖然是在野黨委員提的但也是衛黃委員會通過的你們承諾人家要建置一個平台你們沒有完成就算了其實還繼續在包庇這種狼醫你們就是狼醫包庇的當兇 |
transcript.whisperx[38].start |
877.694 |
transcript.whisperx[38].end |
888.602 |
transcript.whisperx[38].text |
就不要講說要法律授權 有法律授權啊 而設法有沒有法律授權 有沒有請問你們公佈在哪裡 而設法規定要加害者的名字都要公佈你們有公佈嗎 沒有 因為他是醫生 所以不用公佈如果他是教保員或是狼屍 就要公佈了 但醫生輕輕放下 |
transcript.whisperx[39].start |
903.905 |
transcript.whisperx[39].end |
927.544 |
transcript.whisperx[39].text |
不是嗎 你們的醫事查詢系統也可以優化你們醫事查詢系統 因為我們要去看婦產科醫師要內診 有時候要麻醉 會昏迷我不知道醫生會對我做什麼 我也很害怕我可不可以上網去查詢一下這個醫生有沒有前科有沒有移動懲戒 有沒有涉及連兒少的也都可以看得到啊 |
transcript.whisperx[40].start |
928.979 |
transcript.whisperx[40].end |
957.894 |
transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以你可以在這個既有的醫事查詢系統去優化可是你看你們的醫事查詢系統你們的醫事查詢系統大概只能證明說他是一個有合格執照的醫師吧網站上有姓名人員類別職業的縣市如果同一個縣市兩個同名同姓職登科別類別都一樣我要怎麼辨認哪一個是狼醫 |
transcript.whisperx[41].start |
959.554 |
transcript.whisperx[41].end |
963.239 |
transcript.whisperx[41].text |
哪一個是我要查詢的那個我在乎的醫師好 |
transcript.whisperx[42].start |
964.653 |
transcript.whisperx[42].end |
990.884 |
transcript.whisperx[42].text |
等一下慢慢來沒關係 那我又就用這個查詢網站為基礎如果 我再問你第二個問題同名同姓 同科別 都一樣我怎麼確認哪個是哪個 第一個第二個 這個網站裡面如果疑似人員犯案以後甚至遭到判刑以後 沒有被你們吊銷執照改名了 改名了 我怎麼查詢他啊 |
transcript.whisperx[43].start |
992.165 |
transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1006.935 |
transcript.whisperx[43].text |
改了名就海闊天空了 人生重來了他改名了就不會對病患繼續上下起手嗎我不知道我們的知情權你們給我們的知情權是要 是怎麼樣是這種 不好的查詢系統而且重點也不在這裡喔 |
transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1016.431 |
transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1032.666 |
transcript.whisperx[44].text |
重點還有一個喔改名以外還有一個喔你們自己在上面的說明一是查詢系統的類別上就是一個笑話民眾在網頁上可以得到完整的資訊嗎事實上是不是 |
transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1034.042 |
transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1059.654 |
transcript.whisperx[45].text |
你們網頁最底下的說明民眾查詢到的都是醫事人員同意放置的項目這網站不是完整的資訊你看到的資訊都是因為這些醫事人員同意給你看 你才看得到醫事人員不想給你看 你就看不到所以你們有提醒大家如果你要去查查看這是不是狼醫 有沒有記錄 |
transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1061.135 |
transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1089.796 |
transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如果你在網頁上查詢不到不代表這個人不是醫事人員所以這是不是很荒謬?次長 有沒有很荒謬?護符部本醫事人員查詢系統不管是否查詢得到都在有或沒有之間所以連他有沒有執照 無照醫師滿街跑也查詢不到啊無照醫師不會在這上面因為這上面必須要有執照 然後有直登你怎麼那麼好笑有照的醫師不在這上面才好笑 |
transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1092.659 |
transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1114.991 |
transcript.whisperx[47].text |
吳趙醫師當然不在這上面但你的好笑荒謬是有趙醫師也可以不在上面你有趙醫師不在上面所以你查詢的這個人到底是有趙吳趙不知道那我請問你你自己的名字為什麼不在上面因為我現在挺夜陳時中為什麼要在上面因為他現在可以 羅益君為什麼要在上面 |
transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1115.951 |
transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1141.223 |
transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我現在在溫福部所以我停業 蘇經選為什麼在上面陳金輝為什麼在上面 因為你不想被人家查詢報告委員我不是 是因為我現在是停業 我沒有職業登記所以我現在不能在上面那陳時中有嗎 這我不清楚他有職業登記喔 那有沒有違規違法羅怡君也有欸 蘇經選有 陳金輝也有你們都還在看著有職業登記委員的話是可以的 |
transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1144.4 |
transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1170.487 |
transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以我現在要跟你講說啊因為各種因素沒職業的所以我講說各種因素啊你今天司法卡案在上面你也是查不到所以你可以利用這種不想公開來掩飾你無法職業的問題我要去查詢某某某他是不是涉案然後你上面跟人家說明說查不到不代表他沒有醫師執照 |
transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1172.574 |
transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1193.765 |
transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因為他可以公開也可以不公開你這個制度沒問題嗎改了名以後的狼醫怎麼辦這制度沒問題嗎你給我們就只有這樣子就只有這個簡單的資料這樣子不用精進嗎如果對兒受犯以性侵害需要公開你上面也查詢不到 |
transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1194.998 |
transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1217.394 |
transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這沒有問題嗎?你自己說這樣都沒有問題嗎?不用改進嗎?不用進進嗎?一定要改進這一次報告委員我還是一再強調醫事人員尤其是醫師在持續的繼續教育過程中都有相關的性別平等或者是相關性騷擾防治等等的學分那再來醫事機構本身基於性別工作平等法跟性騷擾防治法也有針對我現在不再講醫事機構跟醫療人員我現在講的是衛福部的這個網頁這個網站這個平台 |
transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1224.199 |
transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1241.501 |
transcript.whisperx[52].text |
是衛福部的責任啊所以跟我們報告就是說因為之前一月份的時候部長也有承諾我們要有一些公開的這個網頁資訊所以這個部分部長日夜晚回來之後我會跟他盡速把這個部分做起來你現在知道有公開了一月到現在了已經多久了 |
transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1242.851 |
transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1262.147 |
transcript.whisperx[53].text |
醫改團體說你們這個網頁查詢門檻很高 民眾難自保只可以查到醫事人員的職業縣市 無法得知職業資格是否還有效職業資格有效才會找到面因為他可以不登啊他不登的話民眾上去看找不到 民眾要懷疑他那就是意思他們沒有 你上面告訴人家是 |
transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1264.309 |
transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1277.073 |
transcript.whisperx[54].text |
也就是說他你畫紅線的再看一遍職業中的醫事人員同意放置的才給予公開如果沒有查到不代表此人不為醫事人員你這句話不就笑話你還能夠講得出來查詢不到的理論上查詢不到應該全部都是無照的可是你你的制度讓他們可以閃躲躲在有照的但是不想公開的人的後面 |
transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1291.448 |
transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1312.802 |
transcript.whisperx[55].text |
就是承認你們不足 承認有錯誤承認你們做得不好 就是這樣子而已所以呢沒有辦法得知資格 懲處和判決紀錄懲戒紀錄四散各處 查詢不易 搜尋不到或是匿名 啊改名的咧 改名的咧民眾就醫治保 連改名就查不到 那改名的怎麼處理 |
transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1314.775 |
transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1329.615 |
transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以其實他還是要跟著他的職登跟職業職照的部分來...就改名啦改名啦他改了名字可是他的職登他還在啊所以到時候如果...我怎麼會知道那個職登號碼跟前一個是幾號一樣的我們在上面的網站...改名了 |
transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1331.624 |
transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1352.247 |
transcript.whisperx[57].text |
需要依法公開的資訊不需要修法的剛剛講的依須懲戒辦法第22條法院組織法第83條針對判決和懲戒確定的名單就屬於政府應公開的資料我剛剛講兒少裡面的也必要公開都不會違反任何法律都有法律授權 |
transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1353.268 |
transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1377.266 |
transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那可不可以放進去 提到委員指導這些政府要求公開的資訊我們把它整在一起 讓衛福部整合在這個平台可以嗎我們可以整在這個平台 或讓首頁能夠看得到事權統一如果這塊這麼簡單這麼容易 你們應作為而不作為 就是行政怠惰而且距離部長1月要承諾的 真的是很久 搞很久了 |
transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1378.067 |
transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1404.556 |
transcript.whisperx[59].text |
英美各個國家都有建制公開平台除了醫師的資格背景職業的狀態還可以就近可進行的查詢有無紀律處分紀錄強化民眾自主的把關透過平台的建制也能夠強化醫界的自律更重要的是減低民眾對特定科別尤其是涉及隱私的科別不信任感和擔憂這個是 |
transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1407.641 |
transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1418.366 |
transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個是很多好處的啊不是公開 大多數醫師都不會違規 不會違法大多數的醫師也樂於看到淘汰這些劣幣但是護短的體制是惡行的溫床啊護短的體制是惡行的溫床 |
transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1428.511 |
transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1445.785 |
transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以性暴力零容忍政府跟醫界都不應該視而不見輕放拖延建制或優化這個平台的前提我們知道不影響醫師的清白但也需要在病人安全和隱私維護之間做權衡 |
transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1447.967 |
transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1466.393 |
transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以要 這細節就是你要納入多細微你要邀請相關的利害團體大家一起來討論所以我們要一個知情權民眾就要一個知情權才能夠保障醫病雙方的權利給我們一個安心就醫的環境啊好 謝謝委員指導 |
transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1467.566 |
transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1484.693 |
transcript.whisperx[63].text |
會不會多久可以把這個平台優化好剛剛有委員要求我們在一個月內去把相關公開資訊的部分做規劃他剛剛沒有討論得很清楚 我現在講得很清楚懲戒的 移送懲戒的相關的法院判決的還有剛剛講的不是判刑確定你們過去五年光是違反議事倫理的沒有一件送懲戒 |
transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1493.778 |
transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1505.371 |
transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個標準你要公文下去告訴俗家從中央到地方告訴這個國家所有的執法人員不是只有判刑確定好啦 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 |