| IVOD_ID |
161698 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161698 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-35-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-21T10:46:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-21T11:01:01+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbce93a0e36e9b20142aab3ad0e17f3153db0f420b3783afbdfbbbce6fde1d30f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:46:35 - 11:01:01 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案。（詳如附件）） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩局長請蔡局長 |
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好 謝謝主席 萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說 |
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31.363 |
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就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛 |
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但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛 |
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77.761 |
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105.02 |
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對 當時是這樣 但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧 |
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105.72 |
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都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些 |
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我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以 |
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過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律 |
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國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了 |
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那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書 |
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208.778 |
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219.188 |
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當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書 |
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221.499 |
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249.633 |
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對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件 |
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機密 絕對機密 那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛 當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律 我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受 也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統 |
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268.823 |
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294.348 |
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他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密 |
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295.228 |
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315.775 |
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跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制 |
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317.366 |
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管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制 |
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344.464 |
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369.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為這部分要有一個法律的依據 目前可能還有不是不是 法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密 法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇 他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以 我說在民主的運作 OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
372.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
393.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
394.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
沒有 這兩個部分喔 一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例 涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型 一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位 那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有 但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露 轉述的違法 法律他沒有豁免啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
420.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
425.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
428.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
453.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
455.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
475.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
476.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
501.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有 管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密 絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊 但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
501.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
516.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
516.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
544.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
560.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
561.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
580.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對 這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有 我不只在意這個 定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣 5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
585.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
608.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
參與不分區的分配 領取政黨補助金 我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個 比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說 我會黨啊 對不對台灣有很多政黨啊 有賭博最大黨 什麼亂七八糟 很多什麼 有的有沒有的我的意思是說 對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來 是指在國會有席次 這是一種定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
609.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
638.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對 跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對 我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
639.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
651.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
大概就這兩個方向 你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布 那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
653.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
671.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
674.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
696.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
696.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
717.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
718.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
745.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
746.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
765.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
766.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
787.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
789.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
808.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你不能替他宣布嘛 那什麼時候會宣布 府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場 我認為國家是大家的 我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候 我個人是贊成情報共享 建立制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
809.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
829.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
831.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
847.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
848.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
865.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見 |