| 影片長度 |
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| 委員名稱 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1749.677 |
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1776.426 |
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報告聯席會初期委員19人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開始開會我們現在介紹到場委員跟應邀列席官員我們就在場委員吳思堯委員我們現在介紹應邀列席的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1778.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1806.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
原住民委員會的常務副主委鍾新華中副主委內政部民政司專委劉立芳權序部法規司專委廖康儒行政院人事行政總處組織人力處副處長邱怡章行政院主計總處公寓預算處專門委員章嘉瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1809.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1815.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
其餘未介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1819.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1844.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本次議程我們排定討論事項並安審查委員鄭天財等16人委員高金素梅等24人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案）反案前今113年6月27日本屆第一會期司法及法制內政委員會第二次聯席會議審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1847.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1853.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
業經報告及詢答完畢並決議令定期繼續審查。原因今日繼續審查進行討論我們現在進行討論請醫事人員宣讀提案條文那如果修正綜議請一併宣讀請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1866.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1885.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案委員鄭天財等提案第三條本會致主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比照檢任第14職等另一人職務列檢任第14職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1886.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1914.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
部主任委員中二人應由三弟原住民與平弟原住民擔任且職務列檢任第14職登者應具三弟原住民或平弟原住民身份前向主任委員由行政院院長提名經由具原住民身份之職下市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市區長召開審查會同意後任命之任期四年不得連任委員高金素梅等提案第三條除增訂第三句 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1915.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1938.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
並兼任行政院政務委員等文字外其餘未修正委員鄭天財等提案第四條除第一項增訂第二句為無己職另刪除條文中依聘用人員聘用條例聘用其聘期隨主任委員異動而更易於均為無己職等文字其餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1940.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1946.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
其餘未修正、委員高金素梅等提案第四條同委員鄭天財等提案宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1948.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1971.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
繼續修正動議部分修正動議一對照委員鄭天財等提案第三條第一項後段中二人應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任修正為二人應由山地原住民或平地原住民擔任第二項刪除提案人委員會小林鄭天財、吳宗憲、張志榮、黃建平等。宣禮完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1976.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2004.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
條文已經宣讀完畢那我們現在進行討論那針對本案請問各位我們要進行大體討論還是直接進行主條討論看各位的意思報告召委我覺得上一回我們都已經質詢答詢結束了我們現在就是不是進入到主條來討論有意見的話我們在主條當中就表示大家的意見可以嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2006.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2021.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
無效委員我是建議司法法制委員會的程序上還是大體在主條然後因為像天財委員有一些修正也是請提案委員再先做一下說明這樣子可能會更清楚修正的緣由謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2023.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2045.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這樣齁 呃 高金委員我想請教一下就是如果說我們因為呃 吳委員 那個本會的委員吳委員說希望進行代議討論那是不是我們一個折送方式就是我們進行代議討論但是每個人我們一個限制一個時間限制時間就好 這樣我們就可以控制了好不好我想說我們就這樣子 那我們先請 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2047.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2048.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2071.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2076.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有關原民會組織法的第三條本席原來提的條文是針對主任委員怎麼樣能夠有能夠充分說到各個族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2100.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2100.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2117.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2145.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
能夠行使同意這樣的一個就是因為從原住民族自治的立場來看的話那因為原住民族自治法到目前恐怕還是很難所以我是想說是不是先推出這樣的那經過我提案之後看了目前的一個狀況是認為說還是暫緩所以我就把這個第二項第二項還是先做了修正東西刪除了這個第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2148.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2163.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
言明會主任委員提案由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任。最主要考量是說,原住民族第七包括都會七,台澎金馬,非常廣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2164.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2182.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
一個主任委員能夠去了解各個地方各個族群其實真的有他的難度那如果我說明這個從嚴明會這個成立到現在第一任的主任委員這個山地原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2183.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2201.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第二任的陳水扁總統前面是馬英九李登輝總統的時候是山地原住民華家志陳水扁總統任內第一任的是布農族尤哈尼伊斯卡卡夫特山地原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2204.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2227.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
陳建年平地原住民邊南族瓦里斯貝林賽德克族山地原住民阿美族從陳水扁的最後一年開始到馬英九的8年都是平地原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2228.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2229.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
議員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2245.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2261.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
蔡英文總統的任內8年也都是平地原住民所以這個部分我才會說這個是不是可以有這樣的一個條文的一個規定因為畢竟颱風禁真的是各族群真的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2263.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2263.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
高金委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2287.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2301.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我針對第四條的部分跟在場的委員們說明一下第四條是對於原住民的族群委員我們希望是比照辦理跟客家委員會一樣是無極值的我有幾點要跟在場的委員說明一下第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2302.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2328.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
就針對第四條族群委員無極值的議題就是其實族群委員最大的功能他是要彰顯地方各族群的心聲但是在2020年發生格馬蘭族的族群委員遭到格馬蘭族地方領袖共同的抗議的時候我們也要求原民會你必須要處理一下族群委員的領選制度可是到現在已經四年了都還沒有處理然後今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2330.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2352.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在我們的10月9號感恩福祖也到立法院召開了一個記者會也抗議他們現在推派的族群委員根本也不是他們想要的族群委員所以呢這充分的表示什麼派人制度不公平然後從容性質過高根本都不透明的部分這四年當中園林會根本都沒有想要修正這是讓我們感到非常不可思議的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2353.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2353.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2374.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2390.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主委說什麼就是誰然後我們再看一下從薪資結構上來看這些族群委員根本也不代表各族群推派出來的只是主委他自己領選的你知道他的薪水多少嗎他每個月的薪水是81540塊這相當於什麼專門委員甚至是副處長層級的薪資了我們可以看到進法補償呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2400.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2419.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
每個月五千塊我們的行政院都不願意編列了 族群委員只是一個主委他自己的意志去擬派的人一個月卻可以領高達八萬一千多塊 這個實在是相對的有被剝奪感然後在業務上面呢其實呢原民會他本身的業務就很多 我們來舉個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2421.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2447.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
掌管26萬公勤原住民保留地的這個管理的我們的人民會裡面的人力只有30個人所以我們建議為何不把這些錢真正用在需要的人力上面然後第五個我們可以看到中央部會例如客家委員會組織法第四條裡面客家地區的代表擔任委員也是無職無己職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2449.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2466.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
總統府原住民委員會有16組的族群代表,也是無幾值的以上我提的這些東西我們都希望原民會能夠深深的考慮也希望在場的委員們能夠支持我的提案提案說明完畢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2473.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2484.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
各位委員我們現在進行大體討論那其他發言的委員在座位上舉手就可以那請問是否有委員要那羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2493.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2514.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席我今天看到這個我們高金素梅委員不管他的那個修法或是他的一些那個提案跟發言我忽然驚覺了我都終於懂了主席原來民進黨為什麼要苛扣禁法補償原住民三萬塊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2515.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2535.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
原來為什麼因為現在族群委員民進黨把他搞成仇擁制每個月薪水八萬一千五百四十元這麼肥的缺這麼需要經費當然要砍原住民的三萬元真正需要原住民的三萬元不願意給 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2537.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2552.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
阿現在是怎麼樣?如果說今天齁,族群委員齁,真的今天像我們高金素梅委員剛講的齁,你能夠準確反應這個我們各族群的心聲,也就罷了,可是是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2553.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2570.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以我跟大家講今天我覺得高金素梅委員講的話太棒了 醍醐灌頂我都突然懂了為什麼今天為什麼民進黨使命的要去砍民進黨砍那個原住民的禁法補償 三讀通過的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2572.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2600.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
然後原住民轉型正義踩在腳底下連我們今天民進黨自己的陳寅委員跟吳立華委員都支持的原住民的禁法補償結果呢他把我們兩個親愛的民進黨的原住民委員壓在腳底下你叫他們怎麼面對原住民的族人搞了半天搞了半天原來是這個原因啊我真的希望我們偉大的政府今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2601.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2601.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2628.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2648.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝主席和在場的委員我看最主要還是要講道理啦剛羅志強委員提到原住民禁法補償的部分我會有不同的一個看法不同的看法在什麼地方呢原住民的禁法補償這個部分我們過去國民黨提出來蔡英文總統上來以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2650.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2650.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2665.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2680.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
或者在場所有的委員你們家的林地你們也是屬於禁法的部分然後呢我是原住民我是八萬羅志祥你是一萬五那我認為你也會覺得不合理啦禁法補償應該是針對說禁法這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2684.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2703.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
進法這個政策而不是我莊瑞雄是原住民我8萬你羅志強你不是原住民你1萬5這不通嘛我們兩個全部在我們兩個都我們都有照理嘛不是嗎我屏東我有8個原民鄉啊我知道大家討論這個問題壓力都很大你挺原住民我也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2704.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2730.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那不能說我是農民我就沒有嘛我也是要禁法補償我也必須要有我份嘛所以政策我都認為必須要好好去做一個討論這個本來就可以大聲的講啊宗嘉濱他本身在屏東啊也有很多原住民鄉啊這個議題的時候不是只有你們把聲音講得很大就好像其他人不挺原住民不是我的看法是說你政府的政策必須要去一致你像比如說北水水庫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2733.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2734.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
委員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2755.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2782.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第三條裡面去提到說本會制主任委員然後特任這個鄭天財委員的看法鄭天財委員這個看法我是覺得非常有創意非常有創意但是我是覺得比較不妥啦比較不妥的原因就是說在我們整個憲法徵求條文裡面是強盜整個原住民族的一個地位可是我們也很清楚現在憲判制把平埔族也放進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2784.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2805.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那你至少有九族的賓卜族,難道他們就沒有資格來擔任了嗎?這是第一點。那另外的就是說,你像比如說,由主委,由行政院長來提警總人的命,行政院長提名,原住民加直轄市議員或縣市議員,那刪除了,對不起,你刪除了這? |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2808.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2811.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因為當省委員先舉手的時候我們讓省委員先發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2837.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2859.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席各位同仁我想說這個是我們這個新的會期所審的第一個法案那也都之前詢答過了今天要好好的來針對這個部分大家來進行討論結果沒想到除了這個提案說明之後第一個發言的羅志強委員就馬上把他提升到政黨對決開口就罵民進黨了那這個顯然對於羅志強委員來講沒有藍綠的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2867.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2868.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
委員高金素梅 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2880.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2904.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
原住民委員會組織法修正條文一開口就要提升到這個政黨的衝突這個我是非常不能理解不能溝通那我想今天參加的委員大家都很用心的準備看了這個兩位委員的提案對於內容裡面大家有一些疑問都想要在這裡大家來討論羅志祥委員是不是因為他沒有仔細看這個法案所以他只好談這個政黨的問題這個讓我覺得非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2909.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2909.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
二）委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2917.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2917.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
財政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2948.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2958.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第一個就是有關高金委員提到說原住民委員的主委要兼任行政院政府委員這個好像是這個也拿掉了對不對這個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2959.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2984.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以現在是你們兩個案子都用這個修正動議就對了不是說這個是你的修正動議那這個問題也沒有那更簡單了這剩下三個問題了這個就是由平地原住民跟山地原住民輪流擔任主委這個事情這是第一個點那第二個點之前有說三個副主委都要原住民這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2985.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2996.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
之前案子沒有了沒有修了嗎也沒有修了好那接下來就是無極職的問題了就是委員的無極職那我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2997.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3007.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第1次聯席會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3021.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3045.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個是從原民會一成立開始就有這樣的一個明定那一成立的時候是李登輝總統李登輝總統的時代嗎是是是所以剛剛有委員說啊這個民進黨啊這個發發8萬塊給給這個這個給這個原住民委員這個讓我去嚇了一跳我想說啊這個是民進黨定的這是該死的民進黨真該死結果啊原來不是不是民進黨定的從開始到現在就是這樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3046.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3069.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
為什麼委員就要把這個東西拿來說你們民進黨現在發八萬好像民進黨在酬庸馬英九八年都不是酬庸過去李登輝都不是酬庸就是這樣子齁我認為齁這個實在是顛倒是非啦齁那這個部分齁這個有關這個部分我們等一下主條的時候會再跟副主委來討論這個有關這騙人知己條例的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3072.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3099.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那接下來我大概最後簡單的講一下就是說我對於輪流擔任這件事情我個人有點疑慮的因為事實上對於平地原住民、山地原住民的分類這個我相信在原住民族或是在台灣大家都有相當大的質疑雖然憲法裡面這麼規定但事實上現在平地原住民很多住在山地原住民鄉很多山地擁有山地原住民身份的人其實住在台北市、住在都市裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3100.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3110.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以平地原住民、三地原住民本身這個分類現在在憲法學理上大概就有很大的爭議那我們又要把這個爭議把它放進現在要再立法強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3112.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3138.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個平立原住民、三立原住民區分,這個我是有點疑慮的。那就像我們現在如果規定客委會主委,他必須這個四線、海豐、輪流單陣,那個反而沒有團結這個客委會的這種,所以現在這樣區分是反而沒有團結原住民的功能,反而變成分化原住民的效果,這部分我有疑慮,等一下我們在主條的時候再進行討論,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3141.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3142.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
高金委員先舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3144.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3168.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好,非常謝謝,針對莊委員或法會委員提出的部分我簡單的說明一下第一個莊委員說那個金額的部分,競法補償的部分事實上呢,招領補助也已經修正為6萬了然後我們看一下休耕也已經是6萬了所以當時我們在內政跟經濟委員會裡面甚至於民進黨的立法委員都會提案是6萬塊是依據這個部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3171.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3171.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以我在這邊再提醒大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3189.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3214.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
第二件事情就是所謂的無脊折這個部分的確是在李登輝時期的時候這個就已經明定了但是不要忘記2020年我剛有講過葛孟蘭族群委員其實他們已經連署抗議過當時民進黨政府派人的族群委員所以當時一戰八路因為接受了大家的抗議所以族群委員就沒有另派他 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3215.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3245.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3245.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3245.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3264.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3265.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們回歸到我們是一家人謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3284.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3311.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
待會羅將委員還有吳思耀委員、鍾嘉斌委員我們這樣一直討論整個程序會不會拖太長不好意思我想要歉意一下如果這樣子的話我們大家比較有順序嘛那乾脆用登記的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3312.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3313.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
委員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3330.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3331.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
主席詢問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3355.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3381.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
主席我想我們稍微都當主席那每個委員會都有它的一個運作的方法那在立法院不就要充分討論嗎什麼時候開始司法法制委員會的討論不要看這兩條好像以條文數來決定我們要花多少時間這個法案上我相信今天到場的委員都很關心不管身份屬性是不是原住民我們代表的都是中華民國的民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3381.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3408.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那我們在這裡希望能夠充分討論還是主席你有收到什麼指示要在幾點之前不要講那個啦我只請教一下嘛我們如果沒有時間限制的話不是任何人可以要我做什麼我就做什麼好很好那我就是說我們建議還是充分討論對我個人就這樣嘛我們該做什麼就做什麼嘛那今天很簡單就是說我們希望不要說議事整個去延宕到那如果這樣的話是不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3411.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3440.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
對我意思是說不要讓議事去言蕩到如果說每個人一直重複的發言然後你一言我一語的話整個議事會言蕩到那是不是說我們今天我們的就大體討論的部分那我們是不是如果說這樣啦一個就是說每個人發言一次嘛另外一個就是那我們現在開始我們就乾脆用登記發言的方式你聽到我講什麼不高興你又要起來講那到時候會議就沒完沒了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3441.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3460.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這也是為了大家 大家都很多嘛我覺得剛剛回應一下我們那個鍾嘉賓委員我覺得等到鍾委員你去當主席的時候你要怎麼去控管程序都尊重你那我先講齁 剛剛不管是莊瑞雄委員跟審判委員對我都有意見啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3461.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3480.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
對可是呢今天主席既然講一次每個人一次的話我也願意尊重主席因為今天主席就是我們整個議事規程的一個主導者嘛那今天如果說今天在議事上我們覺得需要說大家每個人有一次發言機會那就轉一圈就好啦那我自己願意放棄我的發言機會啦就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3483.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3484.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3497.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3512.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席,我也有程序上的建議如果說是要登記發言沒有問題但是我是覺得大體討論那也代表我們之所以大家想要踴躍的發言充分的討論是因為我們都很重視原住民族相關權益的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3514.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3540.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
正因為我們重視然後要修法我們要非常的審慎所以限制次數我覺得這就限縮了我們討論的目的在立法院就是要討論了相信藉由討論會越把條文弄得更細緻所以如果為了秩序上因為主席真的比較忙要舉手這裡舉那裡舉可能也漏看那我們先登記沒關係但是我們要在第二輪發言再去登記沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3541.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3552.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這是方便主席在控管秩序上但我是建議讓我們充分發言不要就次數上來限制我們在乎重視原住民就應當充分討論好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3556.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3556.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3573.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3594.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
應該發表意見一方面要充分二方面要有效率整個會議的進行要有效率所以我是支持剛剛主席所講的每個人以一次為限之後再進入到主條討論主條討論大家還是可以發言的就程序部分還有誰有希望提出來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3596.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3616.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我覺得登記我也同意但不能限制委員的發言次數因為我們就是要具體的去討論一個法律的修正本來就是應該要具體討論像我們今天是內政聯席我們內政也不會說限制你的發言次數我覺得還是要尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3622.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3646.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我還是要拜託各位委員我自己是老公務員這個聆聽立法委員從公務員聆聽審議員聆聽立法委員的質詢以及相關的提案從過去到現在基本上過去都會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3647.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3677.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
原住民的審議員或者是原住民的立法委員的提案因為畢竟這個是原住民族內部的事情涉及到外部的剛才提到會涉及到憲法的我就把它刪除了所以我們是不是能夠回歸到就這麼兩條條文我已經把有爭議的部分都拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3678.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3702.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
是不是我們就撇開這個政治的部分能夠回歸到這兩條條文我的建議是這樣畢竟這個是我為什麼會提我剛剛有講有的人還沒有來啦本來原住民組自治啦但是原住民組自治很難嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3705.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3726.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
蘇貞昌院長說分流立法其實這個就是分流立法的字一了但是看起來大家還是沒有辦法接受會認為會剝奪行政院院長的憲法的權利那我就把它刪除刪除做了修正動議所以我要拜託大家是不是就回歸到 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3728.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3754.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
盡量去尊重我不敢說百分之百尊重原住民族盡量去尊重原住民族立法委員的提案只要不是違憲只要不是沒有而且是還可以還可以省人民的納稅錢所以這個部分我們就拋開政治的思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3756.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3785.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
拜託能夠尊重原住民立法委員的提案我們來仔細的討論可以修的就修我特別拜託以上謝謝根據的部分還有誰還有哪位要補充這樣好因為跟各位那個委員各位都先進報告齁就是大體討論的意義本來就不是讓大家這一來一往嘛大體討論我們是是就主要是就這個我們今天又 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3788.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3811.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
因為你們現在就一來一往了嘛所以到最後這樣好不好就是說這樣大體討論我們現在我們希望說待會我們現在在討論程序嘛待會我們進入大體討論的時候我們想要發言的人我們上來登記然後每個人就限三分鐘一次這樣就好然後我們接下來就進沒有沒有就一次發言因為我們是大體討論欸我們是大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3816.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3843.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
對後面還有主條所以我們大體討論的部分因為大體討論是什麼意義大家都很清楚我們主席要不要定說截止報名登記發言這樣子的話才不會說一次兩次所以我們今天早上大體討論的部分我們每個人就發言一次然後每次三分鐘那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3846.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3847.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
程序部份你有什麼意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3847.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3875.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主席我建議你如果說要限制大家發言一次那我建議你等一下逐條的時候你不能再限制因為大家問題有這麼多嘛你問題我講了之後可能鄭天財委員做的說明可能高金委員做的說明我還有疑慮我還會想再請教啊那這個如果大體討論你要限制一次發言那你等一下不能說我們逐條也講太久了我們逐條也限制一次發言這個我是很怕你到最後逐條又要限制發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3877.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3880.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為今天我們是聯席人很多啦所以我們一個人三分鐘就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3908.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3927.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
對,要登記,再麻煩各位到前面來登記,謝謝我們既然我們變更程序的話,那我們就重新開始好了,這樣才不會說有一些人權利被剝奪我們剛剛沒有做這樣的變動嘛我跟你講是為 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3969.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3969.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
登記發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3994.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3997.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們現在請第一位發言登記委員吳思堯發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4002.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4025.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
主席各位同仁首先我還是要表達相當的遺憾從來都不要害怕討論我們就是因為在乎重視原住民族的權益我們在健全原住民族委員會的組成一定要勇敢討論多元討論不應當限制發言我還是對於這樣子的議事處理我認為我是比較難以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4026.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4026.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
委員鄭天財 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4044.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4059.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
以籌擁兩個字來看待接受我們層層遴選指派的原住民族委員會的聘任委員扣上了他們似乎是失位速餐他們似乎是得不配位甚至動輒用 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4060.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4062.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。）立法院第11屆第4會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4085.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4087.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
國民黨執政時期就已經創建的制度民進黨多年來是沿用也沒有更動所以大家都不要講出仇傭這種字眼那現在的聘任委員呢他是透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4101.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4118.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
已經非常明確執行這麼多年的聆聘要點的規定聆用要有一定的資格條件而且要透過多元的管道比如說各個民族議會各界推薦或者是自建中來聆聘然後呢他的任務是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4119.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4133.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
他的性質是如同像公務人員一樣他的工作時間跟差勤都跟正職人員相同原住民族的服務員非常的大他們不是一般任務編組的委員會來開開會就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4135.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4159.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以我們認為他們是形同正職人員的工作項目服務的範疇非常之廣我們來看看上個會期也在原民委員的提案之下立法院內政委員會審議通過增加對於直轄市原住民族議員現市的原住民族議員一樣增加了為民服務費20%plus |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4161.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4183.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這就是我們體恤原住民族不管是在中央服務或是地方議會的服務他們因為服務員廣大服務員廣大人數少所以工作項目多我們在上一個修法增加20%的服務費可是今天回到原民會自己依 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4184.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4199.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
禮品要點依程序依專業的選用來他的工作任務跟一般正職人員相同的這些原住民族委員為什麼要削減他應當有的他合理有的他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4200.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4203.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。（ |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4229.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4229.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
）立法院第1次聯席會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4245.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4265.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4269.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4292.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這都是主委的工作不要再走回錯誤的歷史的脈絡過去錯誤對山地原住民跟平地原住民這種因為政治因為統治需求而來做分立的這樣子的老路不要再走回去了所以我是認為雖然條文少只有兩條但是我們因為尊重原住民照顧原住民我們應當審慎的討論當立法委員這麼多年不會因為一個法案條文少 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4299.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4299.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
請鍾嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4317.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4344.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
主席在場委員先進我想大家來到這個委員會就是希望能夠民主啊就是要討論不願意在委員會花時間討論就只會進行表決到院會裡面進行決議之後的爭議會更大所以這邊今天有三點第一點還是要奉勸主席在立法院的各委員會我們希望都能夠充分討論才能夠提高我們的立法品質而不是一開始就擺出了準備要馬上進行表決的杖陣 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4345.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4373.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
在場的委員如果不是為了討論而來是為了表決而來就失去了在委員會我們揚棄既有的黨派成見而開誠布公的誠心來討論問題這是第一點第二點對於原住民議題的關注不限定你的族群身份本席過去在第九屆就推動過原住民族教育法當時合作的委員也還在現場其實原住民族教育法後面我們還有原住民族學校法為什麼是要用立法院113委員共同參與來通過因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4375.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4400.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
在我們國家裡面不管哪是個族群我們的法律就是一體適用大家共同討論那時候的原住民族教育法我們希望其他的族群也能夠熟悉原住民的文化所以呢我們必須透過其他族群委員的來參與才能夠讓原住民族教育法成為一個屬於我們全體國民的法律這是第二個關於為什麼要大家共同來討論原住民族委員會的組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4402.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4416.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
第三個對於今天討論的本法案條文剛剛神話會委員說得很好本來有五個爭點那經過了修正之後呢有三個爭點的討論事項我們就不用再進行深呼了那麼接下來我就就兩個部分來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4417.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4433.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
其實如果我們仔細觀察原住民族群委員設19名到29名其中每族群代表均要有一名為有幾職其實我們去看一下任何的行政機關首長制的行政機關包括原住民族委員會也是首長制的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4434.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4437.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
他一定有首長的機要人員從條文的設計上他隨首長任其異動而定看得出這些有幾職的竹薰委員形同舊式首長制的機要人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4448.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4469.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
為什麽要有這樣隨政務官進退的機構人員就是要協助這個政務官他能夠去充分的執行他的業務他在行政上原住民族委他需要族群委員當中有幾職的委員族群代表去幫他收集各族群的意見所以純粹就原住民族各族群來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4470.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4497.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
由幾指的族群代表來相助我們的主任委員他某種程度就是機要人員那如果大家不從這個地方去思考那另外就是用機要人員的編制但是我們的機要人員的設置呢受到我們機關總員法的設置所以我相信這當年在李登輝國民黨執政時期之所以會有這樣的設置就是規避了其他政府機關一體適用的機要人員任用的員額限制之外給予原住民族的首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4498.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4525.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
他有更多的機構人員來照顧所有的族群代表這是他的原因最後呢至於說到底是要由原住民平地原住民或山地原住民我還是要推崇我們剛剛社會委員說得很好不要再分你要分南克北克來分化客家人嗎你要分山園跟平原來分化原住民嗎其實剛剛高委員高金委員也說過了我們憲法當初沿用了過去的不成文的慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4526.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4550.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
分成了3D原住民跟平地原住民本來就希望未來在憲法當中能夠予以把它更正那在還沒有更正之前我們不斷的去深化用3D原住民跟平地原住民來區隔原住民的對待我想這不是我們從為一個國家國民所希望的所以對這兩個條文的大力討論意見是認為一個要用一個首長制的機要人員來看待這些所謂有己職的各族群代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4550.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4564.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
他是在相助這個行政機關的首長能夠兼顧照管所有他的業務對象那另外一個有山原跟平原來分別輪流擔任主委這也不符合我們國家團結人民的要旨以上說明好 謝謝鍾委員那我們各位登記發大體討論的委員都已經發言完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4577.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4577.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
接下來我們就進行逐條討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4606.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4633.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們先再進行逐條討論我們這次部分主要是針對有兩條就是第三條及第四條第三條有鄭天財等16人提案及高金素梅等24人提案及委員翁曉琳、鄭天財所提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4643.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4647.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
請問本條部分是否委員有意見要提出? |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4654.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4681.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
剛才針對這個山地原住民跟平地原住民這個承襲自日本時代的這個生番熟番到後來的山地三包、平地三包到現在的山地原住民、平地原住民這個問題我想大家剛剛都有闡述那希望說委員大家等一下在審查的時候我們考慮一下這個是不是要繼續把這樣子的區分方式我們再更加的強化跟列入法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4682.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4683.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
議員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4699.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4727.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
因為我們這個沒有任期這不是說任期一任4年那4年所以這個當完4年之後那個當4年不是他這個沒有任期所以我們假設說現在一個山地原住民來當結果他當一個月之後我要去體檢發現說他身體不行所以他就辭掉了他就當山地原住民當一個月然後再來一個平地原住民他可能當3年完了之後又輪到山地原住民就是山地原住民組委上來婚外情被抓到了又要下台了 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4728.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4731.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第11屆第4會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4749.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4752.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
鄭委員我再次的說明之所以會有這樣的一個提案是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4778.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4806.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
從嚴明會成立到現在的一個事實來做一個考量來製作提出修正第一個雖然這個大家都認為憲法三顏跟平顏都要刪除但是憲法到現在還是沒有辦法刪除去把三顏跟平顏刪除掉這是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4809.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4836.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個因為從國民政府到現在已經這麼這麼的多年了的七分包括我們的民意代表從中央到地方的鄉鎮市民代表也都做了七分在這麼長的時間的一個狀況之下我們上一屆我們有一位立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4838.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4865.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
他也想把地方制度法三言平言要刪掉一提啊出很大狀況出很大的狀況所以這個是一個事實已經成為一個事實很難再去要去處理了然後就嚴明會的主任委員的事實來看從李登輝總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4869.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4896.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
最後的兩年一直到現在從陳水扁總統的最後一年一直到蔡英文總統任內8加8加18加81616加117年是平地原住民的而三眼平眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4898.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4922.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
就事實上來看,有很大的差異啦。然後族群之間也有很大的差異。我是公務員出身,然後全台灣這樣跑。然後我過去在公務員的任內,三年平年都會期我是常常去的。但是如果我們去仔細分析, |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4926.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4945.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這17年來的這些組委他去跑的行程真的平地原住民就在平地原住民的第七加上都會七對原住民的事實對原住民的問題各方面確實還是有落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4947.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4973.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我是就現況來提出這樣的一個修正所以這個部分也請各位委員能夠了解能夠給予尊重這個部分是一個就事實然後就現況而言然後所提出來的很審慎的提出來的修正東西以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4976.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5001.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
剛才五委員先舉手針對這個條文因為我剛才聽到幾位委員的說明不只想在憲法裡頭尋求三元不要再分的突破在修憲的層次或是地制法的層次委員們都有這樣的努力的嘗試所以現在更不應當在即將要修的原住民組織法裡頭反而走回頭路 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5002.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5027.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
既然大家都想要鬆綁讓原住民族就成為一個國家都應當團結來照顧不分己族不分山地不分平地我們都在各個層面從憲法從地制法到現在都要突破的話在原民會組織法就不要把它明定寫死我覺得這個是輪流的這個真的就 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5028.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5032.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
主委的指認上也許是不是能夠更兼顧這樣子的這個部分我是具體的建議因為畢竟任何一個部會首長的提名權限他還是屬於行政權的人事權的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5050.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5071.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們是要用一個立法去強制去限縮或剝奪行政權的人事任命權我覺得也不宜但是我們理解這個天才委員的一些建議所以如果不要入法因為入法就跟剛剛講的憲法層次或地制法大家想要把它突破改掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5072.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5094.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
又會形同一個衝突跟違逆一個反方向的路的話那要不然我們也可以我個人建議啦也可以把政委員對於未來任命的這個用一個附帶決議修法的附帶決議來做一個這樣的處理提醒未來在主委的指認上要能夠兼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5096.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5117.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個我個人建議但也不一定適合因為我還是要講這是我們不以過當的用立法的權利去影響剝奪了行政院的人事統一權但是這種用一種附帶決議或是提醒的方式我覺得都是可以考量但是入法修法這就萬萬不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5121.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5149.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
中委員謝謝非常謝謝我們主席我們在主條的時候可以充分的就委員之間不同的見解來進行探討那其實我想氣氛不要那麼僵硬我不好意思把我們的副主委拉進來我們中新華副主務人委員他姓鍾我也姓鍾但是我相信我們之間的血緣關係應該沒有比親兄弟更親所以過去我在屏東我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5150.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5178.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
中副主委是我們春日鄉的七家的人我們常常在屏東出現遇到的中副主委都是我們是異父異母的兄弟什麼叫做異父異母父親不同一個母親也不同一個其實這個開玩笑其實我們都姓中但是我們大概沒有什麼血緣上的關係其實我要回應一下剛剛政委員我們在談的其實你看一看目前我國的法律大概我們的國民是一視同仁的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5180.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5208.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
重視有客家人的稱謂家父呢在族群上他講客家話被歸類是客家人但是我雖然客家話不會講不太會講但是呢我認同客家的文化跟客家的精神但是法律上沒有限定我的身份是哪一種族群所以事實上在我們目前的法律當中除了原住民的身份是依著他的父母而給定的之外其他人並沒有給定一個特定 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5208.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5208.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
議員高金素梅 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5224.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5249.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
但是原住民族因為他的身份的取得跟他的居住是分離的他今天就算搬到了都會我們稱之為都會原住民他還是依著他原來的身份的登記是為三地原住民或為平地原住民某個程度上來講這樣的一個區分的標誌在許多的國家都不認為是一個進步的做法舉例來講我們談的籍貫 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5251.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5267.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
不久之前還有人在提出說台灣的國軍將領的晉升上面的資料表上有極冠我想現在的主流意見都認為國民啊他不應該再有一個極冠的標誌我們的身份證也把極冠廢止了 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5268.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5297.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
為什麼籍貫在會被視為一個不是一個社會公平的一個標誌呢因為這個籍貫不是你能決定的你的父親或者母親你從父親或從母親決定了你的籍貫所在但是目前我們原住民身份的取得還是因循著這種血緣跟從父親或從母親來取得如果3D原住民跟平地原住民結婚之後他的子女到底是3D原住民還是平地原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5298.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5313.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
後來在身份認定上就是看他是從母還是從父那請問這樣的一個區分對於原住民真正台灣這塊土地的主人有更進步的價值跟意義嗎?所以我在這裡呢其實也是很想要跟我們鄭天財委員做個探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5315.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5339.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們可能過去一直有對於三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔耿耿於懷但是我現在看到的多數我認識的原住民的朋友縱使他居住在都會地區他以原住民的文化為傲他可以告訴我他的父親盧凱族母親排灣族他們有什麼各自的文化差異他們有什麼樣的圖騰象徵我都很樂於分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5339.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5368.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
但是這是我眼中原住民的文化就是台灣最豐富多元最有獨特性的文化所以我不會去區分他到底是3D原住民還是平地原住民就像我在看待我的異父異母的兄弟中心化副主委一樣我們有共同的姓氏但是我相信他的血液裡面他認同的文化裡面我們都有互相彼此值得欣賞跟尊重的所以我也不會因此去推動一個姓氏而做 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5369.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5398.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
法律上權力區隔的一個法律的倡議因為爭據你先天的身份取得而做身份上不同的法律對待的一個設計就不是一個符合一個法律人民平等的原則那我當然知道這不是我們鄭天財委員修正的原意他可能是希望說我們的原住民族的主委在任命的時候能夠更兼顧到他有那麼多的原住民的同胞要去代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5399.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5414.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
但在實務上我們不要談理念談實務上在技術上剛剛陳委員也提出了所謂的法律上的輪流擔任是一個沒有辦法去精確規範的立法技術所謂你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5416.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5434.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
每一個原住民族委被任命的時候他的任期必須是身份必須是輪流之外他的任期不得超過前一個前面的三地原住民的族委如果做了三年你後面的就不能做超過三年不然就不公平了不然的話你這個輪流要達到公平的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5435.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5457.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為輪流的目的是要公平。所謂說你輪流的目的,如果輪流的目的不再公平,我們幹嘛定輪流?就是認為山園跟平原之間要公平。所以有一任山園,一任平原。那如果這個公平的原則推廣下去,就會衍生出這樣的細節出來。前一任山園做了三年,後面的不能超過三年,不然就不公平。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5458.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5462.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這樣的一個公平會是沒完沒了所以我在這裡很誠懇地希望透過這個組條討論的對話我希望跟政委員討論在立法技巧上怎麼樣可以達到你希望未來原住民族委在任用的時候能夠兼顧到他團結原住民各族群的這樣的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5476.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5491.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是又不要去造成一個已經多數的進步的國家社會它所逐漸揚起的用鮮豔的身份來設定你不同的法律待遇那第二個在公平的一個設計上現在的法律的文字設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5492.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5521.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
或許也不太容易達到我們政委員所提出的一個三元跟平原輪流擔任的公平原則我剛講兩個原則一個代表性原則一個是公平原則代表性原則我認為不宜再去強化三元跟平原之間的差異我們尊重不同族群之間的語言跟文化但是我們希望原住民族在台灣我們有特定的一個法律地位我們應該珍惜第二個公平的部分輪流的擔任的法律條文的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5522.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5531.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
不太容易能夠落實所要求的一個公平的效果以上兩點來就教其他不同意見的委員好那張委員其實大家都剛講了蠻多山地跟山園跟平原其實我個人是比較覺得你如果現在去區分山園跟平原我覺得也有點怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5549.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5575.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那我覺得在這個法律條文我們要的應該不是山原跟平原輪流擔任我們要的其實反而是原住民的各族各族的權益要被均等的照顧跟被重視所以我覺得這個輪流擔任山原跟平原我覺得是可以有討論的空間我們可以給他改成看如何比較寫得比較好我覺得反而是各 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5576.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5577.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那還有哪一位? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5590.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5612.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
蘇委員我想直接接續張宏祿委員的話因為我們早上有討論過這個我自己當然大家知道我現在確實是所謂原住民的媳婦那所以在這樣子的部分我可能有一點瞭解的是說原住民族其實還是有非常多不同的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5613.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5629.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
他甚至不應該被分為什麼山地原住民跟平地原住民因為每一個族群都有自己的特性跟脈絡跟文化歷史等等所以他都應該被尊重被看見那在這樣的狀況下分山園跟平園其實過去害人給他們的一個產物用這樣來區分的類別我不認為是適當的但是反過來我認為要擔任原住民族委的人應該具有什麼樣的身份呢我認為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5643.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5659.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
主委必須全盤的了解十幾族各族的原住民都有什麼樣的特性脈絡和族群的位置歷史等等要能夠了解所有各族群的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5659.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5662.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我反而不認為應該現在用這樣的方式再用過去漢人家族給原住民族的這個分類方式再一次的重新寫在現代的條文裡面以上是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5689.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5715.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那黃委員黃委員好謝謝主席我的意見其實跟前面巧惠然後紅綠委員的意見是差不多的因為其實我覺得這個提出來的本意是很好我覺得天才委員的本意非常好因為我們也希望說這個回歸到原住民自治的這樣的精神可是在條文的設計上我認為會跟我們想要的精神跟目的會有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5716.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5724.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
議員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條文修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5737.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5738.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5759.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5784.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
的衝突的狀態提升那反而造成彼此的分化所以我認為再加上現在其實原住民族散落在很多大家住的地方有人在都市裡面大家住的地方不一樣那所以是不是這樣的文字有符合我們想要的造成的這樣的目的嗎我覺得可以再討論一下那其實如剛剛巧慧所說的我覺得要擔任這個主委他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5785.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5813.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
指責跟他應該要做到的是要了解每一個族背後的歷史脈絡跟文化所以要符合這樣子的他有這樣的能力才是最重要的所以如果要真的要達到轉型正義或是背後的公平的目的應該是要把這樣的文字加進去就是擔任主委的人他到底要有怎樣的能力而不是他必須是符合平地或山地這樣的身分別好 我想要說我的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5816.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5842.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
陳委員陳委員剛陳委員好謝謝主席那從9點開始我們針對這個案子討論其實我聽起來我覺得我個人的一些意見跟想法因為原住民族現在在我們現今的這個社會上其實也有許多都是非常傑出的而且在各行各業裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5842.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5843.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
．立法院第1次聯席會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5861.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5885.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那因為剛剛聽起來我們一直在討論說平地原住民或是山地原住民的部分能夠在未來他們組委的部分能夠輪值來擔任我覺得這個可能比較不妥是因為要擔任一個組委的人應該我們要講究的是他的能力的問題假設如果我們再去論述說平地原住民跟山地原住民要輪流來擔任的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5887.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5892.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那可能在這方面我們會忽略掉反而會忽略掉讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5895.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5919.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個單任組委的人沒辦法充分來做為一個關心所有族群的一個角色的話這或許對於行政部門來講也不願樂見那對於這個輪值的情況反而會讓這個所謂的山地跟平地這個名稱一直在那邊重複的這個在整個族人裡面在討論的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5921.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5945.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
反而會讓整個原住民更加對立所以我希望說這個部分我們是不是再思考一下以上那王委員主席在這裡我的意見因為剛才也有很多我們的董事講過說三地原住民及平地的原住民是要怎樣如何可以成為這個主委最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5947.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5949.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1次聯席會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5975.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5984.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
身體都應該有這個機會可以做我覺得要做一個主委不是很簡單每一個族我們都要去了解、去了關心因為我相信在座所有的同事也有他們的原住民的未來將來的事情可以更好所以今天我們也為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6003.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6010.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這間條款會選另外的意見大家來合作看什麼好,以上好,請問您委員好,謝謝主席我想剛才聆聽了我們民進黨委員的這個意見其實我想這一次的一個修法其實我們看得出來它的主要的重點是充分要尊重原住民族的自治精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6033.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6053.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
委員剛才美惠也講得很好啦就是說當然是是不是要主委跟副主委都要由我們山地或者平地以原住民來輪流擔任其實該嘉賓講到一點就是要符合公平性跟代表性那我們知道現行的法律啊現行就是有山民跟原民的一個區分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6054.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6066.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以說這個原住民族的主任委員或者副主任委員是不是也要由這兩個族群來分別來擔任我想比較尊重原住民族他們的一個自治的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6067.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6096.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那麼現在看起來就是說大部分的原住民的部落他們認為現在原民會如果是僅就是都是有一個也不是做好不好的問題啦就你只是每次都是同一個這個原民或者這個山民來擔任他們認為這個就沒有公平性了沒有公平性了山地原住民跟平地原住民就是說你沒有輪流擔任的話對他們來講好像他們覺得不公平這個就沒有公平性了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6097.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6114.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
如果說是輪流擔任我想這個就有一個符合公平性也這個有充分的一個代表不同的三地原住民跟平地原住民他們的這樣子一個各個族群都有平等來擔任他們主委或副主委這樣的一個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6115.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6128.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
所以這個是比較落實我們公平性以及代表性的一個原則所以我們還是希望各位委員大家能夠支持我們鄭天財委員還有高金委員他的一個提案以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6132.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6161.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那請問還有沒有委員要發...好...那個...他說還有這個...那個...那個...那個...那個...我們也是希望這個條文齁能夠站在有效立法的情況之下我們大家沒有太多的分歧齁我們就去用協商的但是還是很好意的齁提醒一下我們提案委員齁思考一個情況啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6162.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6190.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
因為我剛剛一直在強調說目前的三元跟平原的身份取得不是以居住地的遷徙他是依著父或母的身份認別那如果我父親是三元我母親是平原其實依照目前的原住民身份法的規定我是可以要改成三元就三元改成平原就平原所以如果這個法條通過之後呢會有那種父母雙方各為三元平原的人他未來在任用的時候他都可以因著接下來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6191.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6208.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主委是因愛憂三元的時候他就是以他的父母雙方一方的身份來主張他的族群別那這個其實這是凸顯出我為什麼在講這個聽起來有點荒謬的說法呢其實為什麼用父或母的血緣來認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6209.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6210.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
翁委員要表達一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6235.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6244.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
是,我想這個今天鄭天財委員為什麼要推出這個法案,這個背後其實他反映一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6245.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6272.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
重要的事情就是看起來原住民族的主委在過去這些年的施政裡面似乎沒有照顧到山原跟平原的同胞是一致的也就是說可能如果說今天是屬於平地原住民的主委那在長期以來因為他還是掌有龐大的行政資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6273.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6277.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
司法及內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第1次聯席會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6295.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6314.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
行政資源做一個比較公平還有就是比較適當的一個分配那我認為說其實這樣的一個修法也還是有意義的那當然現在這個情況之下似乎就是大家對於這個條文還是有些意義有些意見的話那我們就不如就送政黨協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6318.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6322.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出?五委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6345.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6371.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
第四條我想現在重點因為一些部分已經提出修正條文拿掉更爭議的部分就是聚焦在是不是無極職是不是無極職的部分我想再次強調現在被聘用的這些原住民族的委員們他們是經過相當的聆聘指派的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6372.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6396.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以他的聘用委員他的代表性專業性都應當能夠彰顯來服務原住民族的這些目的目標那另外呢要看看他們的工作本職啦剛剛有委員提到說總統府的這個原住民族轉型正義推動委員會的委員就是吳己職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6397.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6425.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但是完全性質不同總統府的這個原轉會的委員他是一個任務編組他是一個專家學者的身份或是原民代表的身份是參與討論提供政策的建議解方他不像現在原民會的這些聘用委員目前應當是16位他們是兼具他們的工作性質就如同是正職的公務體系的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6426.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6441.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以他們服務的範圍項目非常的廣尤其整個上山下海原鄉的服務員又這麼的廣大那剛剛委員都提到對於山地原住民平地原住民的照顧都不能偏廢 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6442.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6459.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以樣樣像像這些工作都肩負在這16位的聘用委員身上所以我想要非常清楚的說明他們不是一般我們所想像的委員會任務編組型的組成的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6460.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6489.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
他們是經過有國家的法制聆聘要點然後有適用的條件經過一定程序聆聘而來的工作性質本身就是正職的公務人員所以不要把他們理解錯誤甚至用仇庸這種言詞再次強調這是不好的那我要提醒正因為要對於原住民族的擴大照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6490.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6505.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我剛的發言我想再強調一次就上個會期在內政委員會我們共同在地制法修法提升了直轄市縣市議員原住民族的服務費 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6508.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6522.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以為什麼要給予直轄市縣市議員額外的20%的人民服務費就是我們當初肯認到要服務的服務員這麼廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6523.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6549.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以是那個時候修法我想提案的委員那時候的主張是這樣可是現在卻我們對於民意代表自己要增加原住民族的合理的薪酬百分之二十可是對於公務機關正值人力同樣在服務原住民卻要把他的薪資全部的來剝奪 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6551.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6575.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我覺得這樣是真的照顧原住民族嗎是可以讓這些委員發揮他應有的功能嗎所以我們站在照顧原住民族的立場這樣子該給的合理的薪酬該給就給這是公務體系應當有的制度所以請大家能夠這樣的條文我想要在審慎考量一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6577.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6577.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6586.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6607.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個的薪水對於原住民族的議員來講的國會議員來講其實是壓力很大的事情嘛可是為什麼今天會被提出來要被討論就顯然這個機制有很多很奇怪的問題嘛第一個當然講說這個要這個剛剛我們民進黨委員講說他要協助這個原民會這個體察明末對不對這個多重的服務對不對那我就問啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6608.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6629.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這些所謂的 這個叫什麼 委員是吧 族群委員 他的產生有沒有符合由下而上的原則 有嗎 不一定吧 你現在看起來派 說派誰就派誰不是嗎 實務上的制度就是這樣嘛 剛剛講他每個月拿8萬多塊的薪水 這個是跟縣市議員差不多的 他沒有經過選舉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6630.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6647.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
沒有吧?他們有沒有經過國家的考試?具不具備專業的職能?都沒有那是不是顯然在這個產生的過程中的這個領選的過程是有很大的檢討的必要這個時候不能相悅你不能情緒勒索捏說好像砍掉這樣就是違反族人權益不是的捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6647.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6667.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
如果這個產出的人他並沒有由下而上並沒有地方的正當性也沒有通過國家考試的專業性那他拿這麼多的薪水合理嗎這是法理上可以討論的地方第二個實務上剛剛不是這一段時間不是都講了嗎這些族群委員裡面有沒有民意代表的助理啊好像有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6671.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6693.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那公平嗎?我就問公平嗎?這個的產生機制如果是由執政黨產生然後剛剛好一切都是這麼正好又是執政黨的原住民的國會議員的助理擔任八萬多塊的族群委員公平嗎?難道不應該檢討嗎?剛剛有人講說這類似機要任用你原住民委員會本身沒有機要嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6694.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6713.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
主委本身就有機要啦那你機要再加機要合理嗎所以我覺得這些事情把它改成無幾值算是一個很平衡的你可以多找一些人有一些名目擴大服務都很好但在這個地方你還要用公帑來養人恐怕有失公允啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6714.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6732.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以我是覺得這個把它修正成無極值我認為是非常有必要的要不然你也要針對整個林聘林選的這個機制做全面的檢討嘛如果這兩個都不做那就不要怪大家講說這就是為了栽培這個特定政黨的政治人才不管誰執政都有可能做這樣的事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6732.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6759.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們寧願把這筆錢剛剛我們講其實原住民裡面有民族議會對不對有部落會議你把這些錢當給部落會議的車馬費或補助不也比較符合基層下情上達的精神嗎所以我是覺得很有檢討的必要以上好 謝謝那下一位是鄭天財委員鄭委員完就是黃潔委員再高金委員中委員跟王委員這樣就我們依照舉手順序好那我們請鄭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6762.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6789.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
各位委員本席之所以會提出來是因為長期的觀察從嚴明會民國85年12月10號成立一直到現在我在嚴明會服務了非常多年當立委之後這是長期的觀察就認為要修剛才吳世堯 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6791.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6817.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
委員所提的都非常好沒有錯如果能夠回到這個相關的這些規定當然都沒有問題早期都是這樣早期的族群委員都是符合的但是這段時間真的不一樣了剛才委員講的那是輪流擔任了他 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6818.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6839.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
他們的人輪流擔任,所以這個部分已經失去了族群的代表性。剛才高金素梅委員有提到,有好幾個族群有民主議會,民主議會一直希望能夠透過他的機制, |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6841.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6863.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
民族議會來產生但是完全沒有辦法完全沒有完全不尊重所以已經失去了當初的理想原住民族自治的理想已經失去了所以不得不修剛才委員有提到我們要修這個有壓力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6867.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6892.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
原住民的立委要把這個有幾值變成無幾值是我們有壓力的所以我們願意承擔這樣的壓力所以我還是要拜託回到剛才我一開始講的原住民族的議題尤其是原住民族的這種法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6894.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6920.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我還是希望大家能夠尊重原住民族的立委的意見以上好那我們接下來請黃婕委員好當然我也認為說這個聘用的委員應該要有他的代表性然後可以反映我們所有原住民族的意見可是在這一條裡面的修法如果把這個委員改為吳己職就能夠達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6922.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6924.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
委員提到說對個別的委員有意見那如果是因為對個別的委員有意見就來把所有的委員變成無極職 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6938.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6938.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
委員會長 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6955.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6973.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
而不是在這邊突然大刀一揮就要讓所有的委員無極職好像有點在懲罰所有用心在審這些原住民事務以及為原住民事務付出的所有的委員我認為是非常不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6973.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6973.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
）立法院第11屆第12會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6993.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6996.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
他們這麼努力的在這個事務上面付出可是說那你必須要無償的來付出那這樣真的公平嗎那這些對他們勞心勞力付出的這些委員來說是不是一種勞動的剝削呢我認為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7010.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7034.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
該給的就是要給不應該用這種無極值的方式甚至說他們是仇傭難道他們沒有付出應有的勞動的成果嗎包括說他們要做的事情非常多要審查原住民族的政策法規還要處理原民事務的協調甚至要到現場會刊甚至是要參加非常多的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7035.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7035.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
謝謝,那我們下一位請高金委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7063.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7075.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
非常謝謝,我想黃姐委員,剛剛我第一次在發言的時候,可能你沒有聽到我的發言,我現在再一次發言,而且你可能也是新進的委員,不太清楚,我再講一次。其實族群委員在2020年的時候,就發生了格馬蘭族族群委員抗議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7080.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7105.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以一將主委當時就感覺到我們來臨聘這些所謂的族群委員他必須是由下而上的聲音尤其我講到現在我們至少有非常多的部落已經有部落會議了那部落會議是法定給他的一決部落的事項那族群委員當然也應該在部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7106.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7106.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
委員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7127.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7147.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
民文的寫這些制度,一直到現在還是沒有修改啊。然後在今年10月9號,再一次跟了Kacaw組手上,這個就是他們的抗議書啊。我念一遍他們的抗議書。令人深感遺憾的是本族族人所共同推薦的候選人,最終未能被原住民族委員會選任。 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7149.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7177.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
此結果不僅讓本族感到失望也讓本會還有族人對整個建任制度的公正性產生質疑所以他們認為這樣的決定忽視了族人集體的意見對本族的歷史文化還有當前所需要根本就沒有充分的尊重我想請問一下原民會你們都不尊重每一個族群委員的代表性請問一下各部會首長還會尊重我們原住民族嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7179.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7189.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
難怪行政院三讀通過的禁法補償他可以也不理啊拿原住民當忌旗啊所以呢我覺得我今天提跟鄭天財提這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7191.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7207.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們是符合由下而上的精神八萬一千多塊相當於一個議員的薪水這些人又不是部落裡面領選出來的他們坦白說我做了23年 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7209.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7214.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
真的這八年來非常離譜這些族群委員在地方上其實只是跑婚喪喜慶然後慶典上面就大肆的宣傳做了什麼 園民會做了什麼族群委員如果只是這種功能的話八萬一千塊領的會不會也太容易了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7232.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7232.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
）立法院第11屆第12會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7248.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7248.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7267.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7287.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
下一位我們請王委員主席,在此我認為鄭在董事都為了有機子及無機子的說因為剛才我也聽我們的董事說到什麼人的助力在裡面做我也聽一個很輕鬆的覺得這樣又不太好 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7292.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7296.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
在這個過程當中,在這幾十年來,剛才我們這個制度當然是不好的,我們要改,但是我覺得,如果覺得沒有我們的族群的委員可以為他作文來合約, |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7310.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7320.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人� |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7341.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7366.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好 謝謝那接下來我們請鍾委員好 謝謝主席剛剛聆聽了幾位委員的發言我們不禁要問的是到底是制度上的問題還是執行上出的問題剛剛幾位委員指責過去原民會的主委或原民會本身對這幾位有己職的族群代表的運用上並沒有落實他們應盡的一些職份先如我剛剛所比喻的其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7369.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7395.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
其聘籍隨主任委員異動而更易這句話的法律效果他就形同是機要人員或說他是政務人員隨政務首長同進退那目前在我們的文官體制當中為什麼會允許政務首長他可以有機要任用呢其實呢不只是政務首長在地方政府當中你民選首長有五名的機要任用的職缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7397.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7405.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
鄉長有兩名那麼如果是機關的首長就是縣市政府以下的下級機關首長也有兩名 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7405.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7435.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那到中央部會呢?據我所知也是五名那如果以我們中央政府的這二三十個部會來說其實當年這個立法例其實是對其他的部會首長的機要任用其實是某種程度的優待或特殊待遇因為其他的部會首長都只有五個機要人員可以任用是有知心的但是我們的法律我們的原住民族組織法原住民族委員會的組織法特別賦予了 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7436.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7453.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
獨獨我們原住民主委員會這個部會首長他有19到29個當中的族群代表可以用機要任命的方式是有幾隻換言之其他部會首長只能用5個原民會主委可以用多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7455.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7478.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為他的數額我沒有拿到統計表我是建議可能主席也會把本案如果說有保留要交互協商我是希望在未來鄭天財委員會期望協商的時候原民會能夠提供到底自從原住民族委員會設置有這個條文以來各界的主委他運用這個條文他到底任用了多少形同機要人員的有幾值的族群代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7479.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7496.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我還是要強調一次這個法律的立法力其實是特別優待原住民族委員會的主委優待這個部會首長他超越了其他中華民國各部會的首長的五名機要任用權他有十多位的有幾職的機要任用權 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7497.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7512.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
至於要不要刪除,我是覺得我都尊重大家的意見,因為畢竟這是特殊性的立法,當年有它特殊性的考慮。如果大家覺得這個特殊性的考慮已經消失了,原民會的主委做一個部會首長,他就跟其他的政務首長一樣,就是五名的機構任用權。 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7512.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7513.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7529.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7536.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及第四條條文修正草案案。．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及第四條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7554.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7582.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
但是如果把他拿掉通通是無幾職那就表示未來的原住民的主委只有跟人家一樣5個機要職可以用少了這十幾個有幾職的主委可以用那各族群也本身少了類似這樣有幾職的機要人員可以來協助主委來照顧他們那至於執行上有沒有什麼問題有沒有成立其他委員所說的他們沒有辦法沒有辦法好好的任職沒有辦法去做好他們應做的事情這的確要追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7582.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7594.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
如果主委任用的機要人員或部會上任用的機要人員沒有禁止工作,那是另外一個層次的問題。以上,建議要一個統計表給我們大家參考。主席,我覺得歷史是一面鏡子,我們看著歷史就可以找到很多問題的答案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7607.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7630.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
首先還是要回歸到我們前面講程序的處理狀況我提醒一下民進黨的朋友在2017年12月4日林靜儀擔任委員會主席的時候當時蔣恩恩針對勞基法提出了一個臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7631.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7648.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
林子儀很卑微說主席不可以限制立委只有一輪發言的時間希望能夠讓立委能夠充分表達意見就這麼簡單的一個提案當時的主席林靜儀說本主席可以決定發言時間跟發言資訊不予處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7651.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7671.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
連不予處理啊 人家提案都不處理了 對不對所以啊 我跟各位說 我們中憲委員很客氣了他在那招委 對不對 大家對大體那個討論 覺得說不能說只有一輪他後來也沒強制啊 大家上去還是繼續講啊 對 就是繼續講啊可是我還是要講一個道理出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7673.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7701.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
關鍵是不能每次每次都這樣子我是有點我有點受不了捏每次都是民進黨可以別人都不可以民進黨做的都天公地道別人做的都罪該萬死我覺得這樣真的不好啦所以歷史是一面鏡子而且我們的民進黨委員們好好看看林靜怡這面鏡子啦那第二個我就回到今天這個問題我覺得剛剛我們鍾佳平講的真好啊他把族群委員說成是機要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7703.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7722.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
哇 說成這樣法律也沒寫機要兩個字啊 對不對他把它說成機要欸 那我先講兩件事啊 我覺得我們就是認識啊第一個齁 你說這是歷史已久的一個制度 沒錯啦可是以前有發生過什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7724.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7739.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
新任葛馬蘭族族群委員遭到葛馬蘭族地方領袖共同連署抗議,然後呢,這是要派同一位爭議人選擔任該族群委員嗎?以前在這個制度實施的過程當中,有一直發現這個問題嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7742.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7742.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7761.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7771.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們講今天一個制度檢討就是建網跟知來嘛那你沒進到執政的時候你沒有好好善用這個制度給你的一個彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7773.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7799.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
結果呢搞到最後變成什麼搞到變成什麼一直都有爭議出來嘛這是為什麼今天連我們原住民的委員都必須站出來講話啦再來講知來啦過去齁民進黨剛剛我們中委員講說要追究這種這種所謂的執行不好的狀況啊那民進黨先把追究報告弄出來以前怎麼可以這樣子亂搞第二個我要講什麼我也不客氣講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7801.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7820.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
現在明明有更好的制度啊以前制度如果不好現在就改嘛剛剛王美惠委員講嘛不好就改嘛明明族群委員族群委員中文不需要我翻譯吧族群委員就是代表族群的委員族群委員什麼時候變機要啊變成首長機要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7823.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7842.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
沒關係,我跟你講,來喔,有風度一點點,我再發言。不是,等一下等一下,我真的有要講,這個原則問題。當初宗嘉賓答應過我,發言的時候不要干擾喔,結果你在那邊干擾,還不懂閉嘴,還不懂閉嘴。沒關係啦,沒關係。就像昨天講不贏就走,我也認同啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7843.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7867.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那我要跟大家講很簡單一件事情啊建網知來嘛你今天為什麼有這個檢討你沒有好好做這個制度嘛那知來是什麼這制度明明就有改善的地方現在我們就有原住民就有民族會議啊就有部落會議啊那你應該就有原住民的民族會議部落會議由下而上的推舉人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7869.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7892.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這是為了我們原住民新生可以更廣泛的上達今天我們原住民主委啊所以我認為剛剛我們民進黨的朋友這麼這麼的關心我們今天原住民的那個新生的話那你就尊重由下而上的機制以前做不好未來做更好嘛所以拜託拜託就支持這個案子謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請省委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7899.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7917.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個我就覺得很奇怪,我們大家都在好好的就原住民委員所提的兩個案子,大家好好的就事論事討論,就是有人不談藍綠衝突,他大概不會談其他的,開口閉口就要罵政黨,這個有助於討論嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7920.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7945.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
也許大家剛剛在協商的過程也許已經協商出一些共識結果你這樣講了之後那我們要怎麼履行這個共識呢所以我還是就法條來論法條啦齁這個齁剛剛好好等一下我還在發言喔高金委員對不起這個剛剛所有的討論齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7949.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7958.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
有一個很關鍵的問題就是我們現在的原民會因為我們剛剛講的很多概念其實是牽涉到原住民族自治的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7961.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7982.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
但是事實上原民會它不是原住民族自治機關 這個很清楚它是一個原住民族的事務機關它是行政院在組織法第一條寫得很清楚行政院統合原住民族政策保障原住民族權益辦理原住民族業務它本身就不是一個自治機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7986.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8006.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我講這樣子,剛剛我就一直要理解說我們提案委員或者主張刪除薪資變成無給職的委員的法制上的理由是什麼但結果都不是法制上的理由,都是個別的現在委員做得不好,現在這個委員他們領這個薪水太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8008.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8022.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那這個我就覺得說他變成不是就事論事好像說一個部長做得不好所以我們就來砍縮部長的薪水全部都變成部長變成無極職好像兩個立法委員在議場打架我們就說那時候立法委員的薪水全部砍掉立法委員變成無極職 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8024.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8051.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個我覺得不是我們立法應該設計的制度啦就是說現在如果說現在的這些族群委員有做得不好的那我們做立法委員我們就是把這個族群委員叫來我們就請這個原民會處理啊這主委要負責啊那怎麼會是一兩個族群委員的問題之後就變成把薪水全部刪掉變無幾值呢我認為這個我是真的是覺得要三思的齁那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8055.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8055.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
陳俊宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8070.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8086.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我覺得因為我們討論結果好像是聽起來是對於其中某些這個特定的人的人員的問題那應該我們要回歸到說我們是不是要針對人員管理的部分來做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8087.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8109.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
因為你如果有幾職的話應該對於這個有領有這個薪資的人會有一套這個相關的管理跟約束的辦法應該是要來落實把人員管理的部分做一個適當的調整之後應該這個問題就沒有了那有幾職跟無幾職的問題我覺得是這樣子因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8113.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8140 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這個原住民的這個整個山地或是平地的部分復原遼闊那你如果說我們現在所編定的這些人員他是無脊植的話我覺得未來可能會是形同虛設沒辦法去關心到每一個族群所需要去注目的一些議題那對於原住民來講或許也是一個損失所以有脊植跟無脊植 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8141.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8141.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8185.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8193.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝主席還有各位委員因為我當初看到這個提案的時候我真的有一點震驚震驚的理由是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8195.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8222.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好像表面上面看起來一個是利益良善看起來啦利益良善的制度那但是為什麼會有原住民的委員要把他們所謂的聘任委員的給刪除掉所以我就想我一定要想辦法知道這到底是發生了什麼樣的事情我才有辦法今天負責任的在審查第四條的時候把它搞清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8224.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8237.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
大家說他們一個月八萬多塊我剛剛去問了我們的園民會看起來不只這個樣子但以今年來講16位委員花多少錢兩千兩百萬16位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8245.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8264.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
兩千兩百萬算起來一個人一年我們國家的成本是一百三十五萬一百三十五萬當我們國家一年要花一個人一百三十五萬的時候我相信啊全體國民會很關心啊這個人是怎麼產生的在我國的文官體系當中多少年輕人 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8273.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8296.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
多少新興學子大家要拚高考拚普考甚至國營事業不是高普考的都還有入門晉升的考試才可以拿到那個薪水才可以有這個待遇結果我們這個所謂的聘用的委員一個人一年花國家135萬怎麼產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8300.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8328.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
高雄委員說啊他們有專業有經驗有臨選要點臨聘要點很嚴謹我就去看了這個臨聘要點這臨聘要點哪裡有嚴謹啊那臨聘要點的資格我跟大家報告一下熱心族群服務或深暗原住民事務生育卓著我只要熱心就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8329.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8354.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那就變成是怎麼選出來的嘛我又看了條文他說委員的臨庭必要的時候可以召開審查委員會審議那我就很關心所以我剛請教了一下副主委今年的委員什麼時候開審查會議的他跟我說7月5號我說審了多久他跟我說15個委員審了一個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8357.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8371.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
15個委員審了一個小時我說審查的時候你們有沒有看到履歷表他說沒有審查的時候沒有看到履歷表那我說你們審查的時候看到什麼審查的時候看到名單啊連履歷表都不用附啊這什麼專業啊這什麼嚴謹啊這個到底是怎麼選出來的啊這不會太離譜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8385.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8406.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
用這種要點連履歷表都不用交15個人審一個小時看名單結果什麼 要欺騙社會大眾啊這個很專業啊非常的專業啊什麼樣的專業所以我就忍不住去找啦 來來來來我們來看一下他們有什麼專業剛剛有民進黨的委員說哇他聽說有立委的助理他聽到很害怕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8415.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8436.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我覺得他講的有道理執政黨的委員願意站在監督的立場走到很害怕的真的有道理但我們不可以空口說白話其實這上面我可以負責任跟大家講我沒有一個人認識也沒有一個人是我的朋友我也沒有跟任何一個人有仇 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8437.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8454.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是當有委員講這已經淪為酬庸的工具甚至是養莊腳的工具的時候我就要非常認真的看待到底怎麼回事啊結果掉出來這個名單我稍微找一下人家的批評不是沒有道理欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8455.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8476.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
有的是民進黨委員服務處的處長有的是後援會的執行長有的是代表民進黨選選輸了有的是助理有的是民進黨委員的特助一片綠油油啊一片綠油油啊這個叫專業喔這個是專業還是酬庸啊我相信啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8482.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8499.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
每一個人啊心裡面啊通通都有一把尺啊甚至我剛在問副主委的時候啊你們不是有開審查會議啊如果開審查會議是怎麼審查的我聽了大驚失色啊審查會議只有名單連履歷表也沒有我想在看在啊全國現在所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8508.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8533.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
受驚皆極甚至是想要想辦法擠盡頭不要說公務人員想要擠盡國營事業擠破頭的年輕人看到我們的執政黨這樣在酬庸大家心裡會有什麼感想所以我要求第四條不好意思主席我知道你為了和諧都要送協商第四條我堅持要表決謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8539.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8559.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
先安靜一下,因為雖然後面還有兩位委員,謝榮介委員跟李柏鈺委員要發言,但是因為現在有高金素梅等人他有提一個提案,那個停止表決的提案,那我們現在先請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8562.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8583.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
針對本次會議討論事項原住民族委員會組織法第四條建請停止討論並請表決是否有當進行公決提案人委員高金素梅羅志強、牛許廷、丁學忠、翁曉琳、林思明、謝龍介、張志倫、麥玉貞宣讀完畢請問各位就這個停止討論並表決的提案各位有無異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8591.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8608.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
是,是,有無異議沒有沒有,我意思是說就我們這個提案有無異議我是內政委員會來的齁,沒還沒講到捏對啊不是,中,中,中召委因為程,程序這個我要優先處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8610.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8627.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我們今天聯席齁,那我們現在還沒有發到言,我覺得應該講一下啦。我知道,但是因為我依照議事規則我必須優先處理這個議事討論的意義啊,比較不好意思。我的個性當然是希望和諧,但是因為我們必須依照議事規則來走。我講也沒有要吵架啊,只是講一下讓我們發表一下嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8637.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8658.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好那因為依照議事規則齁那我們就這個要這麼蠻橫嗎不是蠻橫啦竟然連席了李委員我們不是蠻橫我是依照議事規則連席了你就讓我們講一下嘛不是你啦那因為我們依照議事所以我剛剛有跟兩位委員道歉嘛我說依照議事規則我們必須先這麼做那就停止討論的提案請問各位委員有無異議異議阿反對反對齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8668.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8674.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那如果反對的話那我們就就這個停止討論部分我們是進行表決嘛好不好那我們清點 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8674.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8691.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
在場人數19人我們現在開始進行表決請問贊成提案的人請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8709.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8733.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
請放下 那反對的人請舉手反對者8人 贊成者11人 反對者8人那我們提案本次提案贊成者多數通過那我們停止討論好那我們接下來就條文的部分我們要進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8738.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8738.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
請問在場委員有異議? |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8766.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8787.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好 那有異議的話我們就進行表決那我們用舉手表決的方式那表決前我們先請清點在場人數好 在場人數20人那我們現在開始進行表決贊成者請舉手11人 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8796.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8796.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8815.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8829.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我剛剛的表決結果在場出席委員20人那贊成者11人反對者9人本案贊成者多數通過那針對第四條就照兩位提案委員的條文通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8835.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8850.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
本案逐條討論已經處理完畢,我們做以下宣告一本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提交院會公決本案須交黨團協商,院會討論時有吳釗偉中線出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8864.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8879.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
條式引述條文及部分文字跟法制用語授權主席跟議事人員處理議程所列事項處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：繼續併案審查
（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:51 - 11:00:00 |
| IVOD_ID |
16162 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16162 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-2-36,15-1 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
15 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-09T08:30:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-09T11:00:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |