| IVOD_ID |
16151 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16151 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T08:30:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T14:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:46:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d3e97c03370d95bc49e564336fc7700a1605fa09253ef0906b3a88af2b1d3b4915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
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對： |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1842.299 |
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1863.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
報告委員會初期委員10人已足法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第1次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年9月25日星期三上午9時10分至9時14分地點紅樓301會議室初期委員盧敏玲等11人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1871.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1886.35 |
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請教委員徐巧欣﹑沈博洋﹑主席王定宇委員﹑報告事項﹑以本任人事處提報院會關於立法院第11屆第2會期各委員會遭及委員選舉時間地點表﹑業經本任第11屆第2會期第一次會議決定在案﹑ |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1886.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1912.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
二、「宣讀本院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會召集委員選舉人名單選舉事項選舉本院第11屆第2會期本會召集委員案主席宣告依民主進步黨中國國民黨黨團之書面推舉及臺灣民眾黨女委員易軍對推選方式之書面同意推選王委員定語女委員易軍二人為本院第11屆第2會期本會召集委員宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1919.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1924.785 |
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請問在場委員對上次會議的議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?沒有的話就議事錄確定。請議事人員宣讀報告事項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1935.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1950.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
報告事項：邀請國防部部長報告一、．台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。繼密。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1961.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1965.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
首先我們先介紹在場的委員陳永康委員還有今天列席和出席的外交國防委員會與會的人員顧立雄部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1990.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1993.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰上將常務次長楊基榮中將全民防衛動員署署長白潔榮先生總督察長是總督察長張元勛中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2017.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2020.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
政治作戰局副局長張維新少駕軍備局局長林文祥中駕主計局局長謝祺賢中駕軍醫局局長蔡建松中駕戰略規劃師司長黃文啟中駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2048.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2050.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
資源規劃司司長鄧克雄先生法律事務司司長沈世偉中將整合評估司司長苗慧芬女士國防採購事主任趙雅萍中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2076.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2079.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
政務辦公室代理主任南靜婷女士人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智中將情報參謀次長是助理次長朱惠民少將作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文新中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2107.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2110.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝中將通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩蓮中將訓練參謀次長是次長張俊智中將陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2140.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2143.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將空軍司令部參謀長王德陽中將後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉少將憲兵指揮部參謀長呂正芳少將 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2167.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2170.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
入軍後請指揮部參謀長劉清薰 少將資通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良 少將軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁 少將電訓發展司執行長許益新 上校 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2198.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2209.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
國防大學教育長李承忠少將國家中商科學研究院院長李士強中將 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2217.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2233.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
本日會議邀請國防部就台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況及未來展望以及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應與精進作為兩項主題進行報告並備質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2238.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2241.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其中第二項為機密報告兩項報告才先公開然後清場然後秘密方式報告後接續詢答詢答則為先秘密後公開時間並記 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2258.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2272.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
本會的委員10加2分鐘,非本會的委員6分鐘,10點半發言登記已截止。如有臨時提案,請於10點半前提出,11點左右是尋答情形進行處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2296.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2308.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝主席我現在要講的是一個程式發言關於今天的會議召委安排的程式從公開改成機密本席非常無法理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2310.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2324.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
美國軍火商已經虛報價格的事情是美國司法部調查及媒體報導的事情根本已經不是什麼隱瞞的機密跟議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2326.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2344.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這件事之所以受到國人的關注就是因為這些金購都是納稅人的錢國人想知道錢到底在哪裡這是攸關於所有國人的權益我們所責任讓國人清楚了解狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2345.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2353.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因此本席建議周圍有關於美國軍火商虛報價格的問題及議題應該還要以公開會議的方式來處理所以以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2366.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2381.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好等一下公開質詢一樣是可以詢問我們只是先排機密然後讓國防部報告清楚因為到時候萬一公開資訊的時候可能所有委員又說是機密這樣來下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2391.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2396.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們現在請國防部顧部長上台就公開部分進行報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2411.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2430.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席而各位委員今日應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告稱呼各位委員對本部一百一十三年度赴美參加臺美國防工業研討會關切與指導在此表達誠摯的謝意本部訪團由軍備副部長徐上將 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2432.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2456.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
率團與美方充分研討與意見交換深化台美國防產業交流加速成為美國國防產業供應鏈接續由國防部軍備局局長林文祥中將就本部113年度赴美參加台美國防工業研討會成效及合作現況與未來展望向各位委員實施報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2467.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2495.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
召委各位委員大家好軍備局局長報告台美國防工業研討會議成效及合作現況與未來展望專案報告一、前言美台商會自91年起主辦台美國防工業研討會為台美合作運作平台會議主軸為雙方雙邊國防產業交流每年邀請本部國內政黨專家學者及台美國防產業代表參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2497.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2516.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
本部已連續23年受邀出席。美方參加人員除國防廠商及學者專家外,美國防部及國務院亦派遣對台事務官員與會,現僅就本年的會議執行概況,具體成效及未來的展望,在報爐後。二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2519.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2545.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
執行概況今年台美國防工業研討會於9月22至24日在美國賓州費城召開本部受美台商會邀請出席由軍備副部長徐上將率團與會除副部長應邀於開幕典禮花表演說外令商業規劃建立區域和全球聯盟以應對威脅對台的灰色地帶侵擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2547.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2559.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對台灣的威懾和防疫努力投入資源、諾曼蒂登陸的作戰場景及2024年美國大選的潛在影響等五個議題共同實施研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2561.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2586.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一、副部長以關鍵的臺灣需要關鍵的武力為題．在開幕典禮中發表演說．重點如厚。瓜五一、臺灣是民主典範．位於西太平洋第一島鏈中枢及半導體產業．對全球至關重要等三個理由．現在的臺灣是世界的臺灣．值得民主國家予以支持．共同捍衛和平與自由。瓜五二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2587.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2614.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
一、防衛作戰需求建構不對正的作戰能力提升作戰韌性持續增加國防預算對美軍工堅持後備戰力及建立全社會防衛韌性作為。三、支持台灣納入美國防供應鏈透過與美國美國防廠商密切合作建立更強大的威懾能力其演說的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2615.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2642.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
或美官方的代表、國防廠商及相關的學者支持以肯定。二、配合商會規劃由國防院、戰規師及作記事等代表分別於第二、三、四議程發表專報,於議程由本部參與研討。三、本部代表分別與美國廠官學界就國防重要事務研討與溝通。四、 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2644.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2657.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
與在美華文媒體查序說明我施政的立場及國防自主政策獲得高度的肯定。三、具體成效：感謝說明政府國防自主政策及雙邊合作事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2658.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2681.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
美方各界均表達支持臺灣以國防自主的方式提升自我防衛能力具體成效在述如後一、臺美關係持續穩定成長美方於研討會公開場合均一再地表達臺美關係穩固美國對臺灣支持堅若磐石近期美方通過友台法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2683.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2698.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
機細致力協助台灣維持足夠的智慧能力以確保台灣站在民主陣線共同應處中共的軍事威脅二、協助迅速籌獲防衛武器美國依據2023強化台灣正信法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2701.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2705.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
透由外國軍事武廠融資及2023年國防授權法授權總統使用總統提供權等管道協助台灣加速軍備獲得。三、 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2715.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2732.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
提升台美國防產業韌性研討會台美雙方場觀學界約有200多人次均一致認為台灣具備科技、人才及優質的工業基礎可成為美國國防產業合作的夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2733.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2757.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
達成雙贏發展。四、強化台美國防產業合作。台灣中科院及民間科技廠商具備相當的技術及產製能量。研討會期間與美國防廠商充分的溝通、研討、深化雙邊良好的合作機制與溝通平台,有力促進產業升級,落實國防自主政策。 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2758.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2778.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
四、未來展望．本次會議．台美三方場觀學界討論熱烈．本部則具體向美方各界．清楚說明我國防自主的政策外．並表達台灣具備高科技軍功能則產能．將藉擁有的技術與美方加強共同合作．強化雙邊國防產業的韌性． |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2781.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2803.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
每方欲於研討會公開的場合再次表達台美關係穩固等需運用各項遊火法案協助籌貨符合我防衛作戰需求武器裝備促進國防產業合作發展後續懇請大院繼續支持本部各項國防政策及施政作為報告完畢敬請指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2809.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2823.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
公開報告結束接續將以秘密會議進行機密報告本席先做以下的宣告參與秘密會議人員請切實遵行保密規範現在將進行清場 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2826.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2846.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
稍後參與秘密會議人員除了委員外都要憑機密證進入會場。所有人員將以手機、攝錄影、設備、電子手錶、手環、二哥大等儲放於場外的置物櫃並接受駐位警人員偵測檢查。同時請務必簽署保密切結書。請議事人員清場。 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2852.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2874.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
4407.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
4414.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答請沈博洋委員上台質詢請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
4441.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
4464.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
市長委員好部長好那不好意思這個剛剛機密質詢花太多時間了所以我看我只剩一點點時間所以我有些可能跳過了這個沒有想到剛剛會花那麼多時間那這個呢這個我就先跳過好了我先問一下這個漢祥的這件事情就是說因為我看到漢祥在2023年有說他導入這個CNMC就是美國這個公立院資安的相關的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
4466.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
4494.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
目前是應用在F16的維修他說2026年美國當然是要求要全面實施因為剛好這次漢翔出現的新聞爆炸的事項我就不再重複因為畢竟這是落實的問題就是說我們宣稱說我們要符合這樣的一個規範但是符合這個規範以後到底今天發生的事情有沒有在這一個相關的產業鏈安全的規範裡面如果要落實的話以後我們要怎麼去說明可不可以請說明一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
4495.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
4522.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
各位很簡單報告第一個就是漢祥他洩漏在網路上的資料我們經過初步的查證沒有涉及軍事機密或國家機密所以他沒有違法的部分但是他在我們的合約保密條款裡面所有公務上的相關的資訊都不能在網路上洩漏所以我們才會裁罰他一百萬元這個純粹是就是工程師個人的行為目前我們界定是這個樣子所以我覺得這個也要小心因為畢竟我們已經開始要納入到產業鏈資安的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
4524.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
4545.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
對,他很想因為跟美國有一些零附件的一些合作所以他很希望能夠儘速導入CMMC那我們也在鼓勵中科院還有其他的相關要導入這個美國現在驅龍化的供應鏈的這些包括無人載具的系統也要希望能夠導入這個CMMC資安承受署的認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
4546.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
4575.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
剛好最近這個新聞又有報導就是說我們這個台灣媒體這個還是就是不是台灣媒體台灣媒體去引用這個其他的媒體說我們現在軍用品有這個中國製的產品這個當然中科院我看到有一個初步的回應不過這件事情我覺得很奇怪就是說不管是國內的廠商有意見然後還是說有人去爆料為什麼有人爆料會先去新馬傳媒網去爆料這個對我來講也是非常詭異的事情你要爆料當然是台灣現在在場有那麼多媒體都可以爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
4575.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
4602.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
報導到海外然後在國內的媒體在引述這件事蠻奇怪的但即使當然奇怪但我們還是要正視這個問題那不知道現在這件事情的這個狀況是如何今天和明天我們跟廠商講好了一起開箱驗收我們會針對所有被爆料質疑的部分一項一項去檢驗所以要花兩天的時間那我想問一下就是說在這個爆料還沒有出現之前本來驗收的時間就是在大概這個時候嗎還是說現在是你們提早的驗收的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
4603.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
4605.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
最後就是今天因為還有一個今天的專案報告的主題是這個臺美的這個國防工業會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
4623.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
4643.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我還是在我剛才機密會議有講過啦我覺得台美這個國防工業會議是一個不對外公開的會議不對外公開的會議那我們現在在這邊講然後現在又是一個公開的場合對我來講是有點奇怪所以呢當然現在既然已經排了所以我們還是針對這個做質詢但是我問一些別的問題第一個我想要問的就是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
4644.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
4671.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
就是這個創新小組因為上次在上個會期快結束的時候有講到這個DIU那這個DIU目前的發展的狀況如何因為畢竟今天如果我們講這個跟台美這個國防工業會議要去洽談要去討論等等事情除了本來我們武器上面的一些需求等等之外在研發上面兩邊互相怎麼溝通我覺得DIU通常來講還是可以扮演一個蠻重要的角色那不知道現在DIU因為上次在問的時候是說現在正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
4672.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
4695.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
廣納正在招募相關的這種新的人員那不知道現在進度為何跟委員報告第一個是說我們在國內的部分就是我們現在跟國會、蘇阿部、經濟部建立一個跨部會的一個平臺那就這個跨部會平臺我們會提出我們國軍的需求然後其他的部會透過補助國內的民間廠商他去做投入開發 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
4696.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
4724.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那開發之後呢或者直接就產生一個成熟的商品然後支持我們來做這樣子我們的一個戰力整建這樣子那這個跨平台的部分已經成立那現在跟印太司令部的科學及技術處還有美國防部的國軍國防創意那就是DIU也已經建立了這個交流的機制那我們會共同來分享哪一些可以運用民間技術的成果跟經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
4725.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4747.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個部分已經有一個交流的一個計畫那現在另外進一步我們已經召集了聯參跟各軍種來檢視未來戰力軍警的需求那所以就結合國內外商情就是說現在透過美國的幫協助等等那國內外商情那上次你也看到那個像美國的商務部也率團來過來然後來進行這些無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4751.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4761.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4772.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4786.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主席再給我30秒 因為DIU剛剛有講到他跟印太等等之類相關的一個交流那因為交流畢竟還是需要預算因為在之前2023年的時候就有曾經動用過這個預備金然後去做這些相關的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4787.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4814.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我是想說因為現在預算書已經送出來了但是這方面的交流相關的預算的這個編列不知道現在的狀況如何但因為現在時間的關係已經到了所以這個不然我下次再繼續問那我之後可能我也先跟部長講一下後來想他問就也是跟這個工業有關就是因為畢竟我們這個FMF可以分成無償跟有償那現在拜登政府簽了這些無償的部分但我不知道美方到底有沒有無償以後轉有償的一些需求或想法那因為這個一定會 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4814.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4815.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
謝謝沈博洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4839.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4846.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
國防部長請回下一位請羅美琳委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長羅委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4864.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4882.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
中國在今年的兩會期間宣布編列軍事預算是人民幣一兆六千多億,也就是年增了7.2%中國創新高的軍事預算讓周遭很多國家都倍感壓力,所以也都紛紛提高了國防的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4884.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4886.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4908.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4919.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
等採購三十七案的軍事投資計劃甚至還包含了軍工教整體的調薪百分之三等等那照理來講現在的國防委員會應該是要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4923.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4923.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
請問部長： |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4947.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4974.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們主要是新增案的部分因為新增案的部分影響比較大那新增案的部分對於在我們建國不對稱戰力還有後備戰力的這個部分有相當的琢磨所以我們當然很希望就是說這些新增案的部分不會因為這個總預算案的被封殺那因此使得我們沒有辦法有任何的新增案那當然潛艦也是其中的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4975.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4991.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那現在這怎麼辦呢?部長這部分有跟在野黨的委員做溝通嗎?整理了總預算案當然我們希望行政院能夠出面然後來跟在野黨做溝通那我們對於我們自己國防預算的部分呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4992.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
5014.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
國防預算的部分都現在新政幹沒有辦法能夠就是國防預算如果卡關的話那等於我們的新政幹沒有辦法的話那我們一些包括剛剛比如說快速布雷艇、新型步槍這些等等那甚至民雄航太的無人機產業園區開發也都會受到影響這整體的來講當然對我們整個國家安全來講應該是會有一些重大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
5021.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
5049.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
所以這部分的話除了是要跟在野黨的委員溝通之外我想這部分也應該要跟國人來做說明好那再來還有一點就是進入到今天的這個主題台美國防工業會議那這個會議是由我們國防部的副部長徐副部長的率團來做出席然後在這個會議當中副部長還有呼籲美方應該要儘速來協助台灣建立關鍵性的武力那其中包括讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
5050.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
5065.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
臺灣加入美方軍工產業鏈來比照日本跟澳洲希望能夠獲得共同授權生產軍品除此之外我們也看到了美國國防部印太安全部首席 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
5067.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
5086.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
副助理部長沃爾有提到美國近期將會組成印太地區產業任性夥伴台灣在其中會扮演重要的角色與此同時美國也在9月22跟25當中有無人機廠商在AIT的牽線之下來跟台灣的無人機產業跟中科業來 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
5093.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
5119.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以我們可以看得到說這種種的跡象再來還有9月30號9月30號像這個奧克拉荷馬州的這個官員也率領了這個十多家的無人機的這個相關廠商來拜訪台灣跟台灣的這個無人機聯盟簽署了無人機產業國際脫銷合作備忘錄所以從這種種的跡象看來我們是不是有機會爭取加入美國飛鴻供應鏈請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
5122.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
5144.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
美國打造飛虹供應鏈特別在無人載具這一塊是已經有形成一個決策了根據這樣的一個決策它當然希望結合相關的國家來共同特別在無人機的部分因為現在大概有75%以上的無人機的製造都是來自於中國90%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
5147.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
5148.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
對整個這個就是因為他這個裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
5174.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
5174.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
5194.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
5207.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我們的確是有很多案子目前正在洽談中但是細節就因為都有簽了保密協定也不便透露但是我們的確是有機會也有這個潛力加入這樣的國民電 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
5209.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
5229.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
從美國最近的態度來看,從他發表的言論裡面,其實美國對台灣的創新能力其實是非常的肯定。所以也就是說,其實我們應該是,台美軍工產業合作應該已經初步來講是成型了嘛。所以加入這個飛鴻工業鏈其實應該是值得可待嘛,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
5231.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
5259.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我先講第一個應該是美國在大力推動的一個政策這個是政策形成那接下來就是說要如何來打造這是一個當然有一個現實的狀況是有很多在中國製造的原件確實是比較便宜所以如何能夠要把它cost down就是說成本能夠降低這個是大家現在要來思考的一個課題但是這個政策已經形成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
5259.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
5277.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那政策形成之後接下來就是說是哪一些的這個像比如說無人機啦無人艇啦那可以擋入這個供應鏈裡面的一環這個部分要大家來做細部的一些討論那剛剛鐘克遠也講了事實上已經你也知道這個團26個這個公司都過來了那也進行詳細的商談 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
5285.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
5301.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
具體的項目可能要原諒我們就是說沒有辦法在這個時刻來做一個具體的說明但往著這個方向走是美國主導來大力要來推動的一個政策這是毫無質疑的這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
5302.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
5329.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好的,謝謝,了解再來就要提到漢祥了剛剛我們省國洋委員也有提到漢祥當然之前報出工程師在公開社群的帳號多次分享國際國造的機密資料當然經過調查之後國防部有核定說這些就沒有涉及我們涉密的功效可是它是屬於重大的違規 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
5331.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
5357.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那當然這個漢翔後來還是被罰了這個一百萬那我這邊要提到的就是說我剛剛有提到像奧克拉荷馬州在9月30號的時候其實有跟這個我國的無人機聯盟簽署了一個MOU這個聯盟的主席就是誰呢這主席就是漢翔航空工業有限公司的董事長那類似這樣子他們公司又出了這個包那會不會讓這個美國對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
5362.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
5391.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
台灣在這保密方面的有所質疑的這會影響我想美國也好或者是其他有門國家也好或者我們自己本身也好我們要做一個比較更詳盡的一個不管是在這個治安面或者是在人員的查核安全查核面上面都需要來更加強這個是應該我們要努力再去做到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
5391.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
5411.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
是的,因爲像憲密案,我們再來對照回來,我們國防供應鏈,其實我們有所謂的保密機制,所以在2017年的時候,我們爲了要推動國防自主跟國防科技供應,所以其實我們有比照美國建立了國防科技安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
5412.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
5413.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
5435.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
5436.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
再來我們還提到這個CMMC |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
5464.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
5492.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們要加入美國的這個國防的供應鏈其實台灣的國防產業你就要加入導入CMMC像美國國防部的推動CMMC的2025年的時候預計就要來生效了2026年的9月之後呢美國國防部他就會在採購案就要強制來要求承包廠商你必須取得這個認證那我們台灣準備好了嗎我們有導入這方面的這個機制嗎請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
5495.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
5512.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
跟委員報告就是說漢祥或者是中科院都應該要當領頭羊來努力來達成私人運輸的一個要求那現在另外比較大的部分是另外有一些私人的私利的這些產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
5514.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
5516.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
5544.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
5548.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
5566.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
5584.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
對於這樣的一個認證的所需要的這個費用就可以比較大幅的降低那我想這樣子的話比較多的尤其現在的意願上面就是說如果他能夠加入這個供應鏈他就會有一個產業規模的商機嘛因為如果單靠軍方坦白講軍方需求就這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
5587.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
5588.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那這目前有在談了嗎?有在談了。美國是認同這個部分的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
5614.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
5637.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
美國承諾會盡量來?會盡量,對,我們比較擔心的就是說如果沒有拿到CMMC的這個認證你就拿不到美國的這個訂單這是讓我們比較擔心的部分所以既然我們都已經參與了一系列的這個美國工業這個會議那當然這部分我也希望就是說能夠就是說在國際上我們能夠取得這個所謂工業產業的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
5640.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
5642.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
5658.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
5658.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們一直在積極的交流對談當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
5681.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
5694.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我想有一些部分就是說要導入供應鏈要進入到供應鏈第一個讓他看到前景他就會願意積極來做第二個的話可能你導入那些部分的話可能要進行一個實體隔離然後來達成這個也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
5698.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5699.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
下一位請馬文君委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5735.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5736.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5745.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5746.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
國防部跟中科院其實最重要的目的是針對我們的整體國防安全還有我們在整個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5771.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5772.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5788.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5817.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
美國的供應鏈等等他能不能賺錢或者是不是有利可圖那個應該是其他部會比如說像經濟部而不是我們應該要深刻去關切的我想這一個他的輕重緩急或者他的重點我們應該要劃對所以在這裡我們要提出一些探討台美國防工業研討會議我們最重要的一個成果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5820.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5844.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
臺美國防工業的一個最重要的成果我想就是說我們跟他表示就是說臺美國防產業的這個韌性要能夠達成這個雙贏的發展所謂的雙贏發展就是像我們剛剛聽到的或者我們在報告裡面上面看到的主要就是要教授臺灣成為美國國防產業的供應鏈是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5849.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5875.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個當然是其中一個非常重要的一個部分那當然另外的跟美國那邊有做一些交流那對於如何迅速的籌貨我們所需要的防衛武器那透過多元的管道特別是一些這一個安援的手段就是說PDA也好FMF也好或者是其他像 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5875.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5899.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
部長您剛剛有提到說迅速籌貨我們需要的一個武器裝備因為我們剛剛看到的就是因為大家提出來在表面上談到的這些似乎都不是我們真正應該迫切需要的因為除了剛剛我講到成為美國國防產業供應鏈以外另外聽說中科院也要變成美商的供應商有這樣的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5901.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5923.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
成為美商的供應商對比如說因為現在全世界對於無人機的需求非常的大那也有很多不管是我們自己國內要開發一個基地也好或者像美國很多的公司之前才過來嘛奧克拉荷馬州其實它是一個農業州吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5925.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5926.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5945.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5954.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以我現在要知道說中科院會變成美商的供應商嗎比如我們跟美國要採購像因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5957.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5975.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
院長之前您還在站規司的時候你還特別提到我們的建想做得非常好那建想後來把它拆成可以兼征然後還就是打攻擊的部分其實是拆開的那這個部分是不是還是一樣做得非常好?當然我也是所以如果由我們自己生產有什麼樣的問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5983.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
6011.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
有沒有問題都沒有只是需求的規模要看國軍能夠擴大到多大我們剛提到了我們應該我們所科研的投入這麼多的經費然後如果我們國內有這樣的量能可以製造這樣的無人機當然要先供應我們國防部的需求嘛對不對是所以這個部分我們國內自己可不可以做可以當然我還是要再強調一遍就是各軍種的需求能夠把量擴大到多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
6013.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
6020.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們過去在做東西的時候你比如你在做潛艦你在做我們的永英號你在做其他的武器裝備的時候你有考慮到說他們國防部應該要提供到多少的量能可以維持他們嗎這是我們要考量的嗎你今天投注這麼多的科研經費你今天要做這樣的產業園區你今天國防部編了好幾百億想要成立國家隊要採購他們的這些產品那主要目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
6040.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
6063.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
其實我們也是希望可以產業同時發展嘛是對我要強調的就是一個國防供應鏈韌性的問題因為今天不是只有中科院在生產我有很多我的供應鏈下游的廠商在協力你們有把它停掉了嗎不能停掉有停掉嗎沒有沒有沒有停掉你們沒有把你原來配合的廠商把它停掉叫他先不要做有這樣子的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
6063.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
6066.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
6090.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
6112.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我想應該會只要通過我想現在已經通過了嘛那為什麼要停你在軍規商用的部分你們編了很多錢然後現在又急著要參加美國的供應鏈可是我們自己已經研發出來而且已經通過測品的部分我們卻把它停止不用我不知道什麼原因這個部分因為今天的時間關係我們可能沒有辦法讓大家在這裡回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
6117.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
6146.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
就是說瑞恩二型通過作案測評確實改善我們也會納入建案這個第一個沒有問題第二個所有相關包括您剛提到的這些無人機產業或者其他的這些相關的這些產業我們主要的就是要建立一個自主生產的能力這個自主生產力不能單到中科院還要靠中科院相關的這些下游的這些廠商那這些廠商大家一起合作能夠進行一個自主的生產能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
6146.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
6148.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們想不出來為什麽我們要全部都是買美方的或者我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
6175.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
6178.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
或者我們要去用所以我剛剛念了很多個部長既然在這裡同意那未來我們希望看到我們到底要怎麼樣去進行現在我們比較擔心的就是說我們成為美國國防供應鏈我先提出來我們可能會擔心的部分我們會跟美國採購的部分我們希望台灣不要變成代工把它做出來以後再回到美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
6201.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
6216.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
美國在賣來台灣給我們,這樣我們真的也是一個盤子。這個是我們可能料想到的可能發生的事情。在這裡我們先提出來。不是賣給我們吧,是打入國際吧。應該是委員這樣的講法好像是有點……沒有,這個向部長…… |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
6219.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
6232.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們希望它不要發生啦,如果我們自己已經可以幫它做,表示我們自己就可以做,你都已經要發展產業園區,你自己都已經科研出來的東西,如果我們幫人家代工,然後再去高價買回來,這樣這是對不起國人的,我先提出來另外另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
6240.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
6244.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
美國的關鍵技術如果會給我們通常軍火商不會把他的關鍵技術隨便就給出來如果這麼容易的話F16不會到現在連維保的我們說維修中心我們到現在維保都還沒有部長因為時間的關係我現在要再提出來因為那個是未來可能發生的事情你們也不用笑未來我們希望它不要發生這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
6265.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
6281.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為這是我們民脂民膏美國海軍公布新的戰略文件2024年美國作戰海軍領航計畫提出33號計畫它要整合人工智慧無人系統要提升後勤跟人力素質要因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
6282.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
6288.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
解放軍在印太地區日益擴張的軍事影響力而且他強調必須在2027年之前做好跟大陸爆發衝突的準備這是美國提出來的他的33號計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
6298.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
6318.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個部分因為他們提醒中共可能要以中共已經要求解放軍在2027年該年之前可能就會做攻打台灣的準備所以他們自己本身也要做好這樣的防衛準備那現在距離2027年不到三年的時間如果以美國海軍的標準我們國軍準備好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
6321.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
6339.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我想跟委員報告我們的目標就是不斷的強化自我防衛的能力然後來共同形成一個嚇阻的力量讓這個2027可能會發生的事情不斷的往後遞延所以我們不斷的強化自我防衛的能力才能夠產生嚇阻的力量我們聽到因為剛剛是美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
6342.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
6349.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
他們的報告他們的計劃已經做出很明確的時間點我們不知道什麼時候會發生你說我們用文字去敘述說希望他遞言我們當然希望不要發生而不是遞言可是我們不知道的情況之下你應該要做什麼樣準備美國都已經要求自己要在2027年做這樣的準備那我們準備了什麼我們現在看到美國智庫卡托研究所其實他之前也都提過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
6370.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
6387.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
到8月份為止他在9月公布的統計研究報告裡面美國對台軍售嚴當尚未交貨的武器裝備累積的金額這個也一而再再而三的提起大概有205.3億美元其中傳統武器有108.7億不對稱作戰的武器有70億彈藥有26.6億美元當這些我們急需迫切需要的我們編了很多的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
6400.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
6401.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
6420.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
6431.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
通過6000多億以上的錢到現在都還沒有拿到這對我們會有什麼影響?關委員報告我想他這個所計算的一個基礎是不正確的是不是請張律師簡單說明一下這個部分不要在這裡說明因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
6434.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
6437.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個部分已經不斷地提出來像這些東西我們不要看數字我們看到的是這些東西就還沒有到比如F16V我們已經付了1600多億總共特別預算變了2500億而已付了1600億我們到現在都還沒有看到首架飛機到這裡本來去年就應該要交了今年第三季也沒來 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
6459.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
6462.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們還是希望F16的這個交運可以符合在2026年的年底以前全數交運完畢那首架的飛機我想我們希望在今年第4季能夠看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
6487.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
6491.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
部長,我們現在大家一直在幫忙推遲或者講你現在都已經出不來現在面對的國際局勢更嚴峻連中東的局勢都已經非常緊張的情況之下美國的武器裝備其實他們要製造會有更多的困難所以俄烏跟疫情都可以影響美方提供給我們的武器裝備沒有理由你在整個國際局勢更困難的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
6516.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
6527.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們還可以樂觀的覺得他們可以準時可以如期如質的交給我們這是我們要特別提出來的接下來跟主席借一點點時間我想在這裡剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
6531.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
6555.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
老實說在我們的機密報告裡面裡面的內容其實比報導的其實都還要少我們有時候不需要因為當國人都非常清楚的想要知道說到底發生什麼事我們到底被騙了什麼未來還會不會被騙這才是應該國防部應有的態度在這裡我想要請教一個問題就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
6556.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
6563.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
兩大軍火商顯然在很多過去的武器裝備是提供給我們不管是軍購都可以發生這樣的事情我們有很多商購的包括海昆號也買了這樣的武器裝備我們有沒有去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
6582.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
6583.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
美方已經救這個雷神所有相關的內案來進行這個集合調查的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
6601.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
6609.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們自己不需要嗎因為我們通常買的都比其他世界各國貴美國都會發生這樣的事情而且他有特別強調這其中可能牽涉到洗錢貪毒還有官商勾結美國調查的是他們國內的那部長有沒有掌握到我們國內的人有沒有問題這是我這裡要提出來的這是第一個第二個還有沒有可能還有類似的未報事件會不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
6631.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
6633.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
部長,那是美方調查的是針對美國的部分我們現在提出來是說我方有沒有這樣的疑慮你連調查都還沒有調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6653.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6667.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
你應該要先去了解一下整個過程到底有沒有什麼樣的狀況或者在其他的案子上面有沒有這樣的問題不然到最後到時候又被爆出來那可能對我們國防部的傷害會更大他說以時間的關係我們後續可能還有相關的問題再跟國防部做請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6674.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6676.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6710.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6724.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
謝謝主席請顧部長請顧部長前兩週在總統府有開了全社會防衛任性的委員會當然這次是總統府 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6737.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6756.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這是第一次來召開這個委員會那這當然也是接下來台灣在整體的國家政策的發展上面一個非常非常重要的主題所以其實我知道除了部長參與那其實很多其他的部會也包括有很多民間的團體產業界其實大家也都參與了 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6758.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6777.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以大家現在會很關注的點就是說從過去其實大家在談全社會動員到現在其實也有幾年的時間那我知道國防部一直是由這個權動署來做一個有點像是幕僚單位的重整那所以大家包括很多動員計畫跟任務的規劃其實也 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6780.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6807.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
大家也會越來越關注甚至也希望有更多的細節出來我想先問部長部長你有沒有看過這個布袋戲的蘇環真他這個是一人三話蘇環真你有沒有看過沒有你沒有看過是你沒有看布袋戲小時候看小時候很久以前這個在布袋戲裡面鑽的這個角色一個人會他有扮演三個功能那現在大家會有點擔心或提出一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6810.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6831.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們接下來在整個全社會動員的計畫裡面在動員時期會不會出現比方說同一個景蕭但他一個人可能要扮演三個不同的角色可是他是同一個人他在同一個時空裡面可能只能出現一次但他在三個計畫裡面都有他 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6833.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6853.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
他到底要去哪裡?他到底要做什麼工作?現在這個是蠻多關注這個全社會防衛或全社會動員的朋友其實很關注這個問題也就是說我們很多演練背景的想定其實應該要符合實際可調動的資源部長同不同意這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6855.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6881.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對,就是說我們那個背景的想定必須要更結合...背景的想定,我背景的想定要夠清楚,所以要符合我可以真正能夠動用的資源,這個概念應該是同意的吧?對,就是說對於可能的重大災害或者是任何的緊急狀況、情況之下,那資源有可能是有限的,所以他必須要去想定, |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6882.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6883.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
國防部的角色不是只是帶兵打仗 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6899.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6922.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
其實他更會要視狀況跟情境來動員包括衛福部、交通部、警政署、人力、物力的資源這都是國防部可以動員的問題所以國防部在擬定計劃的時候他就必須要了解到到底其他部會跟其他部會的相關的聯動可是現在我們看到一個狀況我們到底會不會在預想我們演練的情境的時候就像我剛才講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6923.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6934.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
到底我們的警箱像警消或其他的公務人員到底他的任務設定是什麼到底接下來在國防部希望調動他們的資源的部分到底要調動多少調動去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6936.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6965.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這部分我不知道國防部現在有沒有很清楚的規劃了因為針對這個各部會的動員計畫的問題我其實去問了警政署我問他說第一個動員階段軍方預計會調動多少警力第二個問他既然預知到可能調就是警政署可以調動的警力可能不是百分之百但有沒有演練過百分之九十、百分之八十、百分之七十在警力壓縮的狀況下面他要怎麼來維持治安防衛的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6968.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6992.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這幾個問題應該都是很基本的問題但現在警政署給我的回答都是這樣他說動員時期我們會被國防部調多少人執行什麼任務我們現在不會知道他們說等到動員時期國防部自然會跟我們說或者是說我不知道調動人數所以我當然現在沒有辦法回答你我到時候在警力壓縮裡面我要執行我的治安維護計劃的話我要怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6994.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
7021.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我要怎麼來規劃現在在警政署給我們答案都是這個事情所以看起來如果國防部一天沒有辦法把他可能在什麼情境裡面會調動多少警力警消的人力給計算出來的話其他部會在規劃他們的任務的時候他會有很大的困難他可能也會卡住不然他就會變成是我就是要設想我百分百的警力去做一件事情可是就像剛才部長說的這事情幾乎是不太可能的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
7022.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
7049.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以人員的重複使用在現在我們很多的動員計畫裡面看起來是一個問題但其他部會現在是確實是在等待國防部給這個情境可是我要說這個問題我們在問國防部的時候又發現幾個狀況這個我們在問國防部的時候國防部跟我們說跟這個部會都跟國防部有相關可是不知道是誰要統籌所以部長針對這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
7051.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
7066.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
你覺得該怎麼處理?跟委員報告齁因為我剛好之前在國安會任職嘛齁那在相當的時間裡面我們陸續的去盤點這些相關依照特別是依照權動法 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
7068.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
7078.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
還有這個民防法可能我們應該有的一個韌性的一個準備那現在總統成立這個全民防衛韌性委員會之後現在應該是要從盤點進入到驗證的這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
7082.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
7099.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以整個漢光的演習應該要結合這個明安跟萬安的演習當然過去本來就有一些結合不過都是像明安的話他都是由地方政府來自己來進行所以我們現在要必須要將想定更實際 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
7101.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
7103.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我問了國防部說就像部長剛才說的盤點規劃的這事情要進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
7128.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
7147.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那這兩個月其實我也找了權動署包括陸軍後勤指揮部包括後勤參謀市長市喔縣指部等等等我也問他說這個盤點規劃目前會是誰來做誰來進行那這些單位都跟我回答說這些事情都跟我們有關係沒有錯但都不是我們統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
7148.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
7174.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以我們現在的問題是說當我們要來找一個這個大腦中枢到底是誰來統籌誰來做情境規劃的時候就部長我想問國防部裡面就國防部裡面因為權動署是這個權動法的秘書嘛那這個事情會是誰來統籌跟規劃這部分跨部會的一個統籌我想就這個部分因為涉及到國間的部分那整個統籌應該是由管會來會負責來統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
7178.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
7184.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
會是有國安會是不是?對,因為全面人性防衛委員會的執行秘書是 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
7191.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
7211.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
有,內政部,然後互召集人是國安會,所以國安會涉及到跨部會的部分會做一些統籌來進行這個符合這個實際情況的一些推演、想定,然後來如何進行一個演練,然後來驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
7212.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
7212.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
國防部會會協助想定 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
7240.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
7264.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那尤其剛剛部長當然也談到說我們國防部的這個漢光同心萬安演習比方說它在7月那涉及到民防災防的民安的演習5月那涉及到CIA防護的精華演習在9月那以我們這個不同的演習不同的演練其實在不同的時間裡面都可能會讓大家錯估了其實可運用的人力的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
7265.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
7291.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以我說部長在這部分當然我知道部長現在也很努力想要來把這些可能綜合的情境去做一個總體的評估尤其是人次上評估但我們在這次的質詢裡面也希望讓部長可以知道說這個想定一天沒有辦法做一個更清楚的釐清其他部會能夠去做的相關的動員計劃他很可能就存在的高度的不確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
7291.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
7293.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
7310.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
7329.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
同心萬安跟民安要一起結合來做規劃那軍火演習的部分比較是屬於這個重大人為的偽安或者是恐怖攻擊的一個演習他比較可能可以分開但是民安萬安同心這些我想我們現在仍然在規劃的階段會整個通販檢討這個這個我們一個實際的一個場景來實切的來統合規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
7337.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
7348.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
部長這個通盤檢討我們有看到當然看到這一次在委員會開完以後你們有說你們會綜合的來評估大概什麼時候會有一個三個月可不可以如果一個規劃的報告三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
7350.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
7374.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我據我的理解現在已經是在正在進行討論當中那個內政部也會提出一個計畫出來然後我們會提出一個想定出來然後國安會會做一個討論所以這個想定的綜合規劃辦理我可不可以請國防部3個月的時間給國防外交委員會一個報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
7378.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
7397.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們有一個公開版的想定我想這個可以提供可以吧公開好那我覺得我們要從透過這個想定來作為一個評估依據的基礎那再來一件事情是我想再問部長部長在這個全社會防衛任性委員會上面其實有提到所謂40萬名利 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
7399.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
7426.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那我知道現在有些媒體一直想把這40萬名利把它去講成說啊你是不是要搞什麼全民皆兵啊等等等等這件事我覺得在委員會我還是想先問一下部長就部長所知這40萬名利可能會從什麼地方來我知道主管機關可能是在內政部但是就你知道這個所謂40萬名利跟現在媒體可能想要或者有些有心人想要去詮釋成 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
7427.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
7455.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
全民接兵這中間的差別是什麼或者他從哪裡來他是民力不是民兵是這是第一點第二點內政部應該是會結合疫警疫消還有替代役那因為現在民防的組織能力有老化所以必須要引進替代役的人力是然後再結合疫警疫消然後再建構一個社區的防護隊等等這樣子的一個概念來建構 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
7456.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7482.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以這個這40萬名利假設我們招募得到的話那它跟國軍的工作要打仗的工作之間是會有什麼差別我要說這個說法目前已經在很多民間包括有些媒體有些人在操作這個事情流傳我在這邊想提醒的事情是我覺得國防部應該要重視目前大家正在流傳的這些訊息這裡面到底所謂40萬名利差別民防跟到底跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7483.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7503.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
剛才說被講成全民皆兵之間有什麼差別?因為我們本來根據民防法的相關規定就是要有建構一個應該要有的民防組織、民防團隊嘛那還在結合相關的疫警、疫消等等的那這些民防團隊現在有很多在操作面上是有值得檢討的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7504.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7530.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以就必須要就這個民防團隊的這個組織訓練等等要加以要如何來強化那這個時候替代役的這個部分就會加入那這個那另外當然還有其他的疫情影響那最主要的目的就是在建構一個社會在面臨緊急狀況之下的一個國家的韌性那這個讓政府持續運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7536.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7550.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我自己是建議說國防部或者應該跟內政部一起對於這些所謂的民間的力量 民力也好民防也好到底接下來會用在什麼地方它的功能會是什麼那它會希望聚集大家來處理什麼樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7552.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7570.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我覺得這部分希望也可以加強跟社會的說明不要讓大家誤會說你這個是全民接兵還是什麼這個軍閥團練之類的這種事情我覺得現在確實有些人刻意要去操作這件事情我要麻煩部長要特別留意這個訊息是好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝洪森漢委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7576.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7585.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
待會林儲委員質詢完畢之後先休息5分鐘然後我們下一位請徐曉欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席那我們有請顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7613.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7625.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
部長好,我們剛才有提到美方的雷神採購但其實我們軍方跟雷神採購的裝備裡面我想詢問是否有一筆台幣182億元的愛國者三型PAC-3的飛彈重建建設案 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7636.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7643.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這是一個檢測案,那我想這個檢測案的這個內容主要是不是先…可不可以簡單說明?對,簡單說明先。 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7645.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7662.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
報告委員我們這個愛三重建車案主要是愛國者飛彈它使用10年之後我們的導引斷件必須做更換來確保它可以發揮原本的效能所以它是一個維修費的案維修費用對不對但是根據今天媒體的報導國防部最早規劃這個採購案本來是整體的愛國者飛彈採購案是1791億餘元 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7669.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7690.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那在預定2021年的時候結案那呢軍售結餘款本來應該要繳庫的但美方要求182億元結餘款不要繳庫那所以呢空軍的這個防空指揮部呢就擅自跟美方簽發了這個架書最後呢以說好買好的飛彈數量沒有買夠用這筆錢來補買 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7694.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7719.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
修訂為愛二性能提升及採購愛三的續購案以補充原彈藥的不足數將全案延長到2027年結案請問是否有此事?這個是不實的所以今天媒體的報導是不實的消息從建設案是一個新政案新政案而且報立法院審議通過至於愛三的剩餘的決議款是我們拿來徵購 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7721.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7725.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個徵購案也經過立法院審議通過所以兩個事情是不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7726.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7747.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍� |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7750.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7778.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
沒有所謂的空軍防炮指揮部先講後奏擅自與美方簽約空軍司令跟國防部長事先不知道就建案作業的事情這個程序上的瑕疵是有的有所以確定有這件事對這個當時這個也已經被糾正了被糾正了對但是事後補齊了相關的文件之後呢暴力法院立法院也審查通過所以這182億元後來如何處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7781.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7793.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這182議員就是按照這個相關的程序把它完整之後報到立法院,立法院也審議通過了。審議通過那如何懲處?相關的名單有多少人?應該有懲處啊。恐軍有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7795.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7816.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
報告委員,這個案子向委員報告,這個案子國防部在一開始出現消息的時候,我們就已經召開新聞記者會進行說明那接下來我們也到監察院來進行相關的調查跟詢問最後的懲處結果是如何的?空軍副司令以下相關人員都受到懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7818.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7821.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7836.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7857.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
外界另外也很關注賴總統在8月份的時候在新進將裡面看到三軍統帥沒有立正好像不高興但其實外界說是總統府的一位女性官員請大家坐下所以導致的誤會想請問一下部長那位官員是誰?誰請大家坐下的? |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7858.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7880.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
跟委員報告我當時到場的時候並沒有看到那其他的新晉將領文你沒有去詢問瞭解這個狀況我瞭解請問是誰請大家先坐下來委員好這個一開始就是總統是好意希望能夠在進任典禮完之後辦一個茶會然後這個好意那個總統給我們的資訊是總統你的誰給你的資訊是交際科 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7886.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7907.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對他們的一個女性的專員專員一個專員跟你們講你們都坐下來他們跟我們協調是說在一個溫馨的一個場合沒有嘛我是想問說是誰請你們坐下來誰告訴你們是一個溫馨的場合大家可以坐下的那個專員名字我沒有特別去記所以是專員的層級他的職等是幾職等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7908.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7934.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我想并沒有：我的理解並沒有說要如何：因為這個是事先在移植的這個溝通上面可能有所不足所以並沒有說哪個專員就要當時現場在場坐下我是很疑惑就是說一個專員那他來溝通然後大家就覺得專員講的意見能夠代表總統那就坐下來了引發這一系列的誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7935.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7960.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以請問不是郭雅惠發言人也不是辦公室主任陳奕霖兩位都不是我想剛剛已經說明了我並沒有避免剛才那個右邊那這位知道是誰跟你們溝通的這兩位都不一定吧我們確認一下而已前一個禮拜我們就在跟總統交際課做一個心跳交際課的哪一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7960.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7961.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以你們一早進去就先坐下了? |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7981.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
8010.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
原本就是坐在裡面等總統所以說這個裡面的我們跟總統府這個溝通可能我們有疏失沒有特別去強調說總統府進來就要休息所以你們一走進來就坐下了沒有人跟你們說要坐下大家都先坐在裡面了然後總統就直接走進來所以看到總統沒有站起來不是因為總統府的科員專員請你們說要坐下是你們自己決定的沒有這樣的就是說沒有看到有這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
8010.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
8027.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以是你們自己決定的應該是說雙方對移程的這個第一次辦這個茶會對移程的這個進行或者流程的進行沒有一個衝...跟我跟軍人的這個瞭解非常的不一樣那因為我還有很多其他的問題要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
8028.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
8030.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
8045.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
8062.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
擁有放颱風架的決定權這是第一句第二、戰爭不分颱風影響與否為因應兩岸之間隨時可能發生的戰爭情勢應該要取消颱風架請問部長你覺得第一種說法比較合理還是第二種說法比較合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
8065.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
8088.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
第一種是呢颱風來襲的時候按照氣象署的數據提供的建議由地方首長來決定是否放颱風架第二種說法是戰爭不分颱風架影響與否因應兩岸可能發生的戰爭歧視情勢應該要取消颱風架這兩種說法第一種跟第二種部長您覺得哪一種說法比較有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
8089.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
8090.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以你認為颱風價對於台灣來說是否有必要性嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
8113.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
8138.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對我們國軍來講我們颱風來的時候可能對於可能的遭害我們都會做兵力的預置裝備裝備的一個預置然後我們也會一級開設你認為颱風架對於民眾對於如果沒有放颱風架的話那民眾在外面可能會有更多的風險對於國軍的救災行動來說會不會增加更多的難度跟風險跟人力的投入 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
8139.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
8155.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我想我們對於是不是放颱風架這一點我還是在強調這不是國防部夜館的部分不是我能夠回答的沒有我問的是對國軍來說如果沒有颱風架那國軍會不會投入更多的資源因為沒有保護到人民的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
8157.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
8184.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
國軍就是投入救災這個是我們的中心任務之一所以我不知道委員問的意思是說有真的颱風來了然後沒有放假還是說沒有颱風來了然後放假真的有颱風來了沒有放假就是真的颱風來了不放假這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
8186.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
8206.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
真的台灣來沒有放假那我想各地方政府首長在決定要不要放的時候都是在考慮國人的生命安全的問題來我們看一下可是呢我們總統府狹下成立的新單位全民認防衛社會任性委員會裡面總統清點的曹新成顧問以他的專業在社群網路上面發表評論他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
8208.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
8227.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
從全民防衛任性的觀點來看要取消颱風架因為如果繼續放颱風架以後全民都要進西中營進行勞改這明顯跟您剛剛的觀點是不一致的請問我們老百姓是要聽您的還是聽我們顧問的我想對任何個人的發言我們都表示尊重所以他是顧問啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
8229.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
8231.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
國軍在太光演習遇到颱風的時候是如何因應的? |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
8245.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
8266.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們事實上這一次也真的遇到颱風。是的。我們去年也遇到颱風。是的。那我們要是颱風的一個狀況就改成就變成轉換任務為救災。對嘛。那做一級開設啊。是啊我們很支持。所以我們雖然是遇到颱風那我們改成防災救災任務這也是我們一貫的傳統我也很支持。 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
8266.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
8293.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
但是呢這跟我們任性委員會的曹顧問的方向邏輯完全不一致對他來說轉成災害救災任務那是不是以後也要進集中營類似這樣的方式我覺得呢如果類似這樣子的顧問跌床駕屋的說法反而呢會讓我們的國防任性所謂的全民國防任性產生更多的困擾那部長你知不知道任性委員會裡面總共有哪些顧問跟哪些委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
8295.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
8311.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我想我那天有參與開會但是我現在詳細的名單不記得了但是我要說明的是我想任何人都有他表達意見的一個自由那確實有很多國家是沒有颱風架這個概念我同意因為有些地方沒有颱風當然沒有颱風架這不廢話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
8312.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
8339.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
但我想知道的是因為日本的緯度比較高所以日本的颱風對他們的影響是比較小的這個是有嗎?有這是非常確定的你去問日本的專家日本的緯度比較高所以他的這個日代氣旋往上的時候日本最近好像受了很多颱風沒有沒有你去問日本的颱風是比較小的那我另外要問再給我一點時間40萬名利這件事情請問法院依據是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
8341.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
8364.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
四十萬民力這個有相關主要來自於民防法的相關的規定那民防法第二條告訴我們除了救災以外有沒有包含民間自衛跟支援軍事勤務的部分就這個現行的民防法它現在的規範是如此是如此的所以暫時會否轉為民兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
8368.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
8386.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
沒有,因為我們現在沒有這個讓人民擁有武器的這個權利那在戰爭時期的支援軍事情務的定義是什麼就是比如說我們有一些民務力的需要有一些需要動員那要如何自衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
8387.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
8410.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
民間自衛跟支援就是情義自衛跟自救自救跟救人自救跟救人所以他要自己能夠自救然後同時如果他可以發展出像類似有EMT-1甚至EMT-2的能力那我們是不是在民防法裡面應該要寫得更清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8410.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8431.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我想這個民法法的規範也已經相當久了啦,應該是可以來...好,那我們最後一個問題喔,40萬名利是由誰來指揮?全社會任性防衛委員會、國防部、內政部警政署、民防指揮所、國安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8432.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8452.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
在這四個相關聯的部會裡面請問這40萬的名利在暫時是由誰來統一做指揮跟委員報告因為到了如果有任何緊急狀況的時候會成立中央聯合應變中心那基本上名利的部分是由內政部來主導來進行調度好 謝謝謝謝徐小新委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8463.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8467.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
接下來請王定宇昭偉上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩部長請副部長另外我們站規司黃司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8486.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8500.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
部長我還是要問一下雷神的案子但是基於國家的利益、台美的默契以及我們相關保密的要求如果涉及機密不宜對外公開的那你可以直接表達這不宜回答這個我會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8501.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8524.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
畢竟納稅人還是要關心我們遇到什麼樣的狀況那因為雷神是很重要的系統商在世界各國包含美國自己本土包含台灣合作的項目非常多涵蓋了水面下水面以及陸地空中很多的項目所以雷神其實是一個重要的合作對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8524.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8551.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那這一次爆發出來所謂的惡意台價或者以美國司法部所講的涉及的相關不當的詐欺的情形那我以下詢問的題目我是希望透過你的回答讓國人瞭解發生什麼事我再強調一次不宜公開的不適合講的部長就直接說這個不適合公開本席會予以尊重第一個這一個所謂的台價 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8552.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8555.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8575.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8596.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以這個案子就這個案子雷神是跟我國直接簽約嗎我們是跟美國政府簽約軍售案就所以我們是跟美國政府簽約美國政府跟雷神簽約所以美國政府本身也美國陸軍也是採購方那他可能有好幾個國家一起在這合約裡面我這樣詮釋對還是錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8599.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8625.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以他這個是一個三判關係應該是A跟B簽約B跟C簽約我們的對口就是美國政府所以美國政府要對我們互完全的對我們不是直接對雷神至少這一件案子上面我們軍售案都不是直接對廠商對廠商是商售我待會會問一下商售的防備機制接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8626.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8635.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
就目前美國司法部通知我國這個事件是涉及單一武器系統還是多個武器系統還是不便回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8637.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8660.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我想這個部分就不變回答。不變回答。因為這個跟我後面問的有關係。那我看媒體有報導,你有回答說這個案子根據美國司法部調查是從2013年溯源找到了跟台灣有相關的情形。所以是2013年開始,但是我們不能說是哪個年度。他說2013年開始的相關的案子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8662.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8685.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我剛在機密專報裡面報告了我想我就不再好那美方主動告知我們因為你剛才講的這是一個軍售漢所以美國必須對品質及和各方面履約條件要負完全的責任我們就是buyer他要向我們負責嘛這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛那我請教部長就是說就軍售案 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8687.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8706.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
在這個事件當中因為我們用莫非定律來講如果你有一個兩個三個四個或者一個你有台價的情形我們有沒有去回顧至少雷神相關的案子的軍售案有沒有類似的情形第一個我們有沒有這樣做第二個是我們有沒有能力這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8707.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8724.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我想要美國的政府會來全面的來展開所以美國政府會全面的review所有雷神對美方軍售案的相關案子有沒有類似的詐數?美方應該會進行我們有沒有要求? |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8724.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8753.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
呃... |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8757.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8782.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
沒有能力就沒有能力因為我跟你買東西像我去買一台車車商交給我了我根本無法預先知道你在車廠掉了三個零件或者是液零了沒有能力預知不見得是不好的事情因為我是買方嘛就好像我們去跟經銷商買了一輛車子它的製造過程有沒有問題不是我buyer可以看到我現在只是詢問在軍售案上有關軍售這個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8783.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8800.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
台灣有沒有能力注意處理或了解到異常現象沒有辦法是沒有辦法的所以要靠美方就是我們簽約方他還去做相關的集合我們大概應該是只能根據國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析這個是我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8802.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8831.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
軍事裝備與日俱新他換了一個裝一個裡面的零件就告訴你這是model 2你很難去做比價啦所以美國他有多層的一個美國的audit美國的這一個集合其實坦白講蠻嚴謹的啦對他從成本的這個這個審核那就有好幾層的機制那後來到後面的這個集合的機制履約過程上然後他也也有也有多嚴密的保管 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8831.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8858.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
有關這次雷神這個案子是美國國防部就軍方集合主動查出來的對美國的是美國軍方查出來的不是司法部調查出來的嘛對是主計局嘛審計局他等於主計人他做audit的時候查到了嘛然後他查到之後他往前溯源到2013年去查各國相關的情形所以美國的集合制度是能夠找出這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8859.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8887.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好那我現在問了因為軍售是美方採購向我們負責那他自己要跟簽約方負責他要去做audition這是他的問題那我們軍購還有另外一個模式叫做商售商售就沒有經過美國政府了當然我期待我們的主計單位我們的審計單位也像美國國防部的主計審計單位一樣的堅實一樣可以把它review可以把它找出來我現在請教商售的部分我方如何做審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8888.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8916.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
有沒有能力有沒有能力去找出這異常的現象我想我們商售的程序會根據這個收集做一些商情的訪查包括這個他們的報價的資料跟一些採購的價格我們會加以分析然後我們根據這些相關的分析之後我們應該要有一個進一步的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8918.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8918.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
已就証券 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8920.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8948.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
就這些比價的這個就是說要相關的一些多管的這個商員進行一個比價的一個程序我請教黃師長或者主席許長或者是採購師採購師這邊因為軍事裝備的採購你像我們最近要送到台灣的M1A2T它就一個T model它後面多了一個電源箱就是它要有一些型它不是每一個國家同樣的武器裝備長得都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8949.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8972.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我現在的問題其實很簡單軍售部分美方向我們負責他要去做集合嘛那我們商售的部分其實量也不小那商售的部分我們國防部有沒有能力做相關的集合查核是本委員報告其實我們商購只要簽約以後我們要求的就是一定要履約督導一定要防場查驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8973.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8994.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
包含防火產業包含它的製程包含它生產的這個它的用料是怎麼來的整個這個相關的我們都要去查驗就合約會要求他要對我們負責對我們透明嗎這是我們自己要來做那我你還是沒有回答問題就是以這是雷神被美國軍方主動查核出來的狀況如果發生在商購上我們會不會發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
9001.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
9019.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我坦白講我是期待因為美國司法部也許這個案子整個到一個段落之後他會公佈所有report我第一個出於國家利益的好奇我們應該去了解他到底怎麼查出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
9021.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
9039.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這怎麼去找出這個洞來的那我們國家有沒有類似的情形我們能夠把這個洞亡羊補牢嘛所以部長我這一趴要問的意思就是說軍購當然我們就要求美方我們是拜爾但商購的不能變成我方的採購我方的集合主計相關要負相關的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
9041.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
9055.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那我們在我們現有的制度上有沒有能力去查出這樣的案子或者有沒有不足的地方我們可以補強的他山之石我們可以來借用嘛部長對這事情怎麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
9056.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
9073.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我想我們從這個案子裡面可以看得出來相關的這個成本的分析是重要的這是第一點那第二點就是說同一個品項我們應該可以找到不同的商員來進行比價的這樣的一個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
9074.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
9091.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
然後到了履約的過程當中我們會同這個省監單位來做審查加強這個集合內控的機制那我們可能也應該要進一步會同律師跟會計師來做進行相關的這個來查核來協助來進行這個查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
9095.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
9117.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
商購或我們國軍採購不管是軍備局或各單位的採購齁這個集合方式的部分這個SOP的流程這應該不算機密嘛齁這應該可以揭露讓我們知道就你們怎麼去查核這些事情的那個流程啊我不是講內容你們怎麼去查核這個流程的我們才能從你的流程當中站在國會監督的角色我們可以去看哪一個步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
9118.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
9144.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
可能這個部分要強化一點或哪個步驟想得太美好了根本做不到這個流程能不能公布給我們知道我們來進行這樣子的一個流程的檢討然後再跟委員做個報告那我接下來一樣跟著這個問題問就是我們一直想要扶植國內的軍工業所以本席在我印象第9屆第10屆我們通過了國防產業促進條例那國防產業促進條例之後我們就有各種品項 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
9147.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
9164.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
認證認證之後他就成為合格供應商而且我們採購流程是國內有認證的經過軍備局啊我們相關單位認證的優先採購是邀標喔然後呢如果他沒有或者他不投標才能公開招標我們有個流程去扶植國內的產業那我現在問一個問題哈在過去我們國軍採購的時候如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
9169.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9193.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
尤其是美製的比較早期的武器裝備有原廠授權的大概都不用不用再討論了一定是用他的那現在原廠授權的跟我們國內經過驗證的你說他叫A貨或者那就是他有能力做出來也經過驗證了這兩個在採購上順序的優到底是美國原廠授權優先還是國內產業驗證優先哪一個優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9199.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9225.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
專科院來回答一下吧委員有產發條例之後只要是通過我們產發驗證然後經過我們驗證性質符合的是以我們國內的為優先我最後提醒就是說我們有一些比方說我不舉特定品項了有一些早期美方供應我們的裝備以往我們的軍事採購就是美國原廠授權打死了就是他優先沒有話講因為他原廠的嘛可是我們現在有國防產業發展條例之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9227.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9246.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
本土的廠商經過驗證證明這能力的話他取得了認證資格這個是有法律地位的過去那個原廠授權的那個是默契行為所以這個李院長這樣講是對的就是說在法律上這個是優先但是為了保護我們國軍要取得品質好 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9246.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9275.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
而且經過市場的競爭我們才不會被當冤大頭嘛所以我是建議國防部這裡也應該盤點一下我們國內現在還用的也許要是早期的已經有些裝備零組件台灣廠商在做了但美國原廠也有還在做我們也應該要求美國原廠說你也來申請驗證你懂我意思嗎尊重我們國家法律除非他放棄了這塊市場他不要了我們的飛機啊我們的戰車啦我們有很多都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9277.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9294.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
對世界上來看他是比較早期的東西所以零組件現在有偽製廠商會做但是美國的原廠或者歐洲原廠他也還會做所以如果我們現在產發條例變成本土產商驗證優先原廠授權的反而排在後面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9295.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9295.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9324.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9336.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
謝謝王定宇、趙偉部長請回等一下林楚瑩委員質詢完畢後就先休息五分鐘然後我們接下來請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請顧立雄部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9349.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9353.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
部長早安,首先我想因為風災,剛剛有委員問到颱風價,不過我覺得在這裡還是要代表本席來對我們所有國軍弟兄,不論是在這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9372.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9376.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9389.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9391.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台美國軍火商雷神對台美國軍火商雷神對台 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9420.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9438.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
各作戰區的狀況不一致我昨天才到高雄跟屏東那我的我到現場之後他們也提出來說像今天還是需要相關的兵力來協助是這個因為因為南部的是風 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9439.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9440.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
大型機工具的調度嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9470.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9494.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對。所以這個相關的部分都投入了很多。那北部的部分的話應該是雨、大雨、風。那雨的部分的話在相關的包括基隆、金山萬里等等的一帶也投入相關的兵力。那到昨天為止全部投入的兵力大概是6769人次。大概是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9496.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9518.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
6769人次所以非常感謝我們這些國軍弟兄們真的是展現了這個軍民一體的精神不過剛剛我為什麼用這個來起頭是因為我相信這個再多的感謝都不如實質上面的給予國軍弟兄包括加薪又或者是夜點從60元提升到100元還有像休假的補助啊慰問金等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9519.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9531.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
再來就是巧複難為無米之炊啦我相信更重要的就是我們要有好的國防的戰力的同時武器當然也要精進包括我們的有新增了一些建案一共114年度也就是明年有 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9534.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9536.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9554.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9570.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
最新的訊息公布我們也將有高達5.69億美金史上最大的這個所謂的援助包括我們的軍備等等但是我們都知道現在114年度的總預算就是卡在程序委員會裡面是根本還沒有進來做實質審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9572.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9581.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我剛剛講了這麼多先不要說後續的這些所謂的軍購或是新增的建案單單給國軍遞充的這些包括明年3%的加薪又或者是夜點的提升我們知道颱風秋台是非常可怕的但是你無法預測這是為什麼這一次三坨颱風造成這麼讓人無法捉摸而又這麼大的招 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9595.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9600.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我想部長您身為這個國防部的部長的時候預算現在就是如果卡住的時候那國防部到底有沒有辦法調節難道說60變成100的夜點如果真的預算在今年度沒有過的時候我們真的不增加不調帳嗎又或者是國軍弟兄這麼辛苦來協助救災那麼明年3%加薪就真的要被擋住嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9620.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9648.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
部長,現在就我們現有的裁員當中因為總預算被卡住的話有沒有辦法可以做調解?這個部分是不是請主計局來說一下?委員好,我是主計局局長有關114年度的預算如果沒辦法順利過的話當然我們的新增案剛剛提到的69億的軍頭新增案是沒辦法執行其他的新增的計畫剛剛提到的有關夜點費調整這一塊也當然是沒辦法去執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9649.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9654.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛價格情事及後續因應及精進作為． |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9664.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9686.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
國防部能夠跟藍白的立委來做說明因為弟兄真的不能餓弟兄也因為辛苦當然包括有關於這些新增的不論是新增的建案又或者是軍售其實本席去找了資料本席不是這個國防或武器相關的專業但是如果根據我的了解的話所有的新增建案它有非常多的節點 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9687.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9703.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
也不是預算編了就馬上可以買到相關的武器那這些都是要按部就班的一個拖延我剛前面很多的專業的國防委員們都在詢問那就是包括我們的武器什麼時候要來包括我們跟美國的採購什麼要來每一個相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9707.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9722.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
只要一個節點有任何的延遲就會影響到後續那這個我相信不論是部長又或者是組織局一定都會非常了解那這個部分就請你們能夠要多再跟藍白立委來多做說明那另外我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9723.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9741.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
延續剛剛講到雷神的部分同樣的如果說是已經報導過的那就不算是機密所以本席會從媒體的角度來看這個事情就是這中間的操作是不是太巧了甚至於每方都主動調查但是卻被操作成中間是台灣變成潘娜我們來看這個報導是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9745.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9749.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
六月四號的時候那麼你去詳細閱讀這篇報導的時候你會發現他只提到了中東的合約而且這個合約是2011年到2013年那麼再提到有一案是2017年的那麼關於這樣的整體的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9761.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9768.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
其實是美國的納稅人多繳了錢跟台灣都沒有任何的關聯在這裡也沒有特別的去提及台灣可是為什麼在10月1號這一天有一個像內容農場一樣的網站開始針對雷神案扯到台灣的軍購而且用不明確的信件來定調台灣變成攀納變成冤大頭如果是媒體照理說本席以前在媒體工作過 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9790.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9819.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
像這樣重要的外電我們大概就算沒有第一時間有時間差格格24小時之後它也會被翻譯出來但是像這種經過了3、4個月之後而且是特別在10月1號中共國慶的時候來出現我就想要就教過去也曾經有在國安會經驗的部長您認為這會不會是一個假訊息的以美論的操作因為這一切的連結其實也非常的詭異 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9822.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9842.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我在這邊我想因為剛剛已經做過機密專報我在這邊能夠說的就是說這個的確是美國主動調查之後來主動告知所以如果美國把我們當盤子或者是當鎧子的話美國就不會主動調查而來告知我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9842.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9858.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以我們只是要強調這一點就是說美國有它一個蠻嚴謹的一個機核的機查的一個作業模式那這個是他們主動去機查出來的一件事情那當然也不只是牽涉到我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9860.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9879.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
美國本身自己也都受害那所以相關的這些這個這樣子的一種主動調查主動告知而且主動表示要償還無收的這些費用的我想我們只是在強調這一點美國並沒有把我們當盤子一樣的盤子或當盤子一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9883.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9885.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
部長其實我會提到這個部分是因為其實從這個訊息對外釋出之後他所要形塑的會不會是一個認知作戰在裡面呢因為從剛剛也有委員講到的就是這個總統的查會的部分媒體的報導的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9899.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9917.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
再從剛剛的這個案例再到之前其實更早曾經有出現就是國防部用坦克各軍種然後有一個所謂的南海工作會議的記錄後來被北檢證實是假文件我要強調的是其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9918.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9939.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
國防部或者是軍事相關的內容跟機料跟自密當中其實確實都存在著可能被做認知作戰的部分那對於反制假錯訊息其實國防部也有提出說會有立即查證損害評估澄清與反制然後網路溯源跟因應那我為什麼會特別把這個講放在一起講是因為部長從剛剛我們講到的雷神案出現了內容農場 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9947.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9963.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
擴大或者是過度的去解讀雷神案再到我們看到這一次總統茶會講說將官因為沒有站起來起立所以總統震怒發脾氣罵人甚至到摔資料這種都是過度的解讀而透過網路然後媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9966.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9994.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
去放大之後再回收到更早之前2023年的這一個所謂南海工作會議記錄都被北檢證實是假文件的時候那麼可以感受得到是在利用這種資訊的落差的認知作戰其實是在持續當中那麼如果說國防部也寫了一個報告會對於網路的錯假訊息會有反制那麼我就想問那麼剛剛我所提到的幾個例子除了這個南海工作會議是有經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9995.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
10020.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
告訴然後認證是假的文件大家知道這是假的就算是真的專業的媒體也會出現假消息的時候那麼之前往前推不論是南海的這個會議之外包括總統的查會雷神案那麼國防部有沒有也啟動了網路錯假訊息的反制又或者是調查呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
10021.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
10049.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我想這個部分我們政戰局都會來就這個網路的錯假訊息來進行查證之後然後未來立即澄清跟反制這個是我們應該要做的事情那當然整個一個認知作戰可能是涉及到一個跨部會的議題所以我想很多的這個錯假訊息的立即應處我們也都需要跨部會的協作這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
10049.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
10072.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以說剛剛我們提到的我們知道像這個南海工作會議它確實是比較明確的就是以所謂假文件來做處理了嘛那其他的因為沒有一個文件出來但是我剛剛特別提到就是雷神案它也是有一個洩露不明確的信件來做定調那這個部分國防部會不會用假錯訊息來做調查呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
10075.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
10094.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我現在只能夠說這一個報導本身就是有剛委員所提到的他的一些謬誤跟誇大之處所以我想我們這個部分才會立即來做一個發新聞稿來做一個說明這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
10094.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
10115.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好,本席希望呢就是除了說明跟澄清之外這個是不是有線頭可以去追而是有特定的所謂認知作戰在裡面尤其是時間點上的調和可以先暫時不對本席公佈但是我希望你們在更進一步了解之後來為我們提出一個相關的報告好嗎?好,是好,謝謝謝謝謝謝林楚芸委員部長請回那我們先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
10143.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
10156.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
三、四、五、六、七、八、 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
10175.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
10185.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
10210.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
10210.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
10250.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
10262.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
10281.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
10283.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
國防部長報告一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
10294.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
10305.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
10312.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
10334.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為，並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
10370.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
10371.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
10402.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
10412.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
10469.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
10471.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
請大家就座,我們準備要開會。接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
10498.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
10515.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我們請顧部長。請顧部長。是,陳委員。部長好。我想還是在軍售案的過程中間,我提出一些建言。是不是請站規司長跟採購事主任一起。 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
10521.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
10538.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
在機密的報告裡面聽到了跟有一部分東西的作業流程跟我現在提的是很接近那我就點到為止我們只是表達對目前的幾個關鍵性的問題第一個就是美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
10539.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10562.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
國防部的安全合作局跟他各部門的關係這裡面每一個都有文件的論述我希望我們部裡的同仁對這個東西能夠做一個更深入的瞭解因為剛才很多同仁都在提到是不是查閉是不是哪個單位發現其實在這個作業流裡面我提出一個建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10563.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10590.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
為了避免以後再發生這種比較不理想的現象或者是媒體的誤解我們可以請站規師法律師採購室我們在國防大學這個管理學院我們辦一個短期兩個禮拜班把過去有經驗的老師甚至我們前一陣子駐美的一個退休的法治官他在回台灣了他都是很有經驗的那麼在上面做一個兩個禮拜的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10593.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10614.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
三、強化性的教學對現職的或者未來準備參與這個作業的同仁這是一個很棒的一個流程那麼這個可以解免很多的誤解甚至避免外面的一些誤判這個圖是所有跟DSEA相關的美國的這個部會那這個圖裡面每個單位的工作職都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10615.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10638.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這張圖裏面就是我們現在只強調的是國防安和局承辦業務然後各軍有自己的對等單位剛才在簡報司長提到了但是只是帶過去他真正的就是下面有一個controller一個等於說他一個審計長的辦公室他是副等於說助理是次長級的 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10640.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10646.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。三、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10666.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10681.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
團隊提出希望軍售也能有一個公和在美國軍售的採購作業規範是沒有公和的但是我們國內要求公和但是公和的比例是多少呢?case 不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10682.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10710.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那怎麼做呢?如果你要攻核假設10億你說10%那就是加1億這1億美國國防部是不管的就把這1億變成我們簽10億的約負11億的款把那1億轉給廠商了但這個廠商給你合作的計轉計協分配下去呢又變成美元點所以這個裡面就變成有些落實有些不落實那美國廠商對攻核外包的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10711.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10738.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
美國國防部不在乎這個時候又產生了如果我們是單一採購案或者是二度採購案或者是加入其他國家幾個國家的採購案這裡面要不要分攤當年這個案子的研發成本這個叫做sink capital或non-recurrency那這個東西每個case都不一樣如果這些案子我們在國內的是掌握不住的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10738.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10760.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那能不能由駐美軍事代表團的採購組他有律師顧問定期啊除了配合我們國內的訪團去督察以外要跟美方的這個DCAA要多做溝通而不是軍售官跟DSEA做溝通那這兩個案子啊如果你把它放在一起看的話就產生了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10762.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10783.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
軍售因為要攻核所以就外加外加款是國軍付錢但實質在美軍外加款是轉包給他的合約廠商這個合約廠商能夠給我們的寄轉寄協或是部分分工變成美元點美元點在過去有一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10785.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10813.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
給我們的軍備局給中科院有一部分就直接分給工業局就跟我們國內的廠商在這個細節裡面有很多東西是定義不清的不是誰對誰錯的這個時候如果我們的律師、會計師在這個細節裡面沒有從開始先律定而只是從軍事單位各軍種的業務流裡面去提出你的需求這個地方細節我們就看不到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10813.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10841.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以這個裏面這一段錯誤不在國內只是誠意甚高要把法律上要求軍售要有公和於是產生了一個額外追加預算增加的預算但美軍說我不管你這一段增加我就直接包給合約廠商那這個裏面一個案子如果做10年10年的公和禁忌有多少那等美軍的DCEA再來審查的時候也許在裏面就發現有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10842.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10844.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10863.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10886.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
不管是LOR他出處的一個參考架或是到後面要簽LOA這個裡面的項目項次非常多200項300項那這個呢我們是希望國內將來能夠細部審查而不是軍種單位提出申請他看這個我要我要我要就全包裹收了那這個東西能做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10886.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10915.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我認為在往後的軍售案以美國這麼多年它的軍售案是不賺不賠但是履約督導是DCAA我們要去配合不是光DSEA所以我剛才提出的建議就是我們開一個短期班請我們過去有一些有經驗的有法制的有採購的替我們同仁上課或者是未來有機會加入的這個同仁做一個上課以上是我做一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10916.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10922.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
另外一個就是有關的商售啊商售我們都要求公和可是如果是國軍軍備局來買 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10925.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10927 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10953.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10957.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
是臺川公司。臺川公司簽這個約的時候合約細節裡面的但書 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10960.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10990.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
．． |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10990.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10992.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
11014.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
11017.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
11042.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
11068.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
並沒有人要擋國防預算那麼我們是希望看到國防預算每一分錢花在刀口上而且為國家國家安全為社會能夠奠定一個更好的基礎包括民間的產業那剛才有一個談到就是希望變成美國的供應鏈要加入美國的這個協會其實過去您曉得就是說你要加入條件是你要做國內的滴滴嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
11069.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
11089.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
你現在根據美國的標準我們國內很多廠商是不合格的就像你剛剛講的廠設施要隔離專案要隔離這個安全設施要照美國的標準來驗收而不是我們國內廠商或者一般委員想像中只要登記就入門入門就變成供應鏈這個我希望找機會部長那邊能夠幫忙做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
11092.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
11115.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
跟委員報告吼,那個攻核的這個部分呢,現在我們就採事後攻核,也就是說之前我們,事前,因此它計轉的這一個部分呢,有時候跟我們要買的這個武器相關的這一些關鍵技術有關,所以我們現在是採事後攻核,也就是說我們要求這個廠商要 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
11116.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
11138.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
要認定他願意移轉相關的這些軍事我們要採購的軍事武器相關的這些關鍵技術的這個部分放在整備數裡面我們才會願意做這個公和的點數如果他沒有同意的話我們現在原則上就不再接受這個用公和的點數來增加我們的國防預算那就這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
11138.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
11160.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那旅業督導的部分剛剛應該也提到了確實這個部分我們也還有在精進的空間那我想剛剛委員建議的就是說我們如何來加強這些整個軍售也好或者商購也好或者是關於旅業督導相關的這個精進的流程我們會再來檢視然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
11163.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
11177.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
看看還有什麼地方可以再精進那甚至可以跟美方來進行這個就是說在共同來檢討有關相當缺失尤其經過這一次的事件之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
11180.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
11199.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
謝謝部長。那站會司司長是不是您補充做一個說明,就是說後面我們這個東西大家如何共同的來精進。關於那個強化我們建案跟採購人員技能的這個部分,我們會納入後續我們建案的利益培養跟相關的規劃去辦理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
11200.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
11218.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那有關於剛剛委員指教的軍售跟商售集合的這個問題,我們下去之後也會配合法律師跟採購師這邊來做一個通盤的檢討。好,謝謝。我們大家共同努力。謝謝部長。謝謝委員的指導。好,謝謝。謝謝陳友康委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
11239.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
11243.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們下面請林委員來發言林永鈞委員發言謝謝主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
11256.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
11279.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
林委員好部長好剛剛前面質詢的委員每一個人都關心一樣的問題但似乎好像都沒有得到一個非常正面的回應所以本席想要再請問一次最近新聞報導美國雷神公司軍售台灣紅台價格這件事情然後國防部在前幾天的新聞稿有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
11280.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
11307.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個訊息是由屬性特殊的內容農場結合中國75週年國慶時釋出的操作移美論的跡證很明顯所以本席這邊想要請教部長你知道這件事情最早是哪家媒體開始報導的嗎?後續又是哪些媒體跟進報導的?我的了解是最早當然是在6月份是彭博社報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
11310.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
11329.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
是,部長這件事情其實是今年6月份的時候你說的沒錯首先是有美國知名的媒體彭博社報導然後後續連華爾街日報也有報導那請問部長美國這兩家世界知名的媒體他們的報導新聞也算是內容農場嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
11330.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
11359.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
如果連美國政府都在為我們台灣報不平說話了那為何我們的國防部自己還不願意坦誠向國人說明清楚呢那難道心虛了嗎還是真的有隱情還是有什麼貓膩不敢說呢還有請問國防部當初是否察覺價格有招哄台還是根本就沒有察覺一直被蒙在鼓裡完全都不知情還是直到美方通知之後才發現的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
11361.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11374.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
跟委員報告我剛剛已經在機密專案裡面報告了當然是美方主動告知那我們之所以沒有對外透露的話主要原因當然就是美國認為司法程序還在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11377.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11391.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
沒有透露相關的細節。據台美的默契跟雙方對這個因為還在司法程序進行當中表示就是說我們就這個部分先不予回應這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11392.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11416.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好,那如果是像剛剛部長說的是美方通知我們才發現那為什麼新聞稿還是要反駁說是內容農場的不實指控呢?你們國防部的發言人所謂的美台軍售制度有非常嚴謹的防備設計這個事情是否就不存在呢?因為根本就是依賴美國政府的防備制度然後出事了才被動等待通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11417.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11433.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
國防部在軍售防備措施上根本就毫無作為依照這件事情來判斷那國防部都已經知道自己被當盤子和凱子了那為什麼像小媳婦一樣不敢講話呢還是被要求不能講話請問部長這件事情你們有沒有覺得很委屈 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11434.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11449.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我跟委員報告,因為他報導的方向跟彭博社報導的方向是不一樣的。他一直在裡面講說,意思是說好像把他拉成是這個雷神在騙我們。 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11451.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11470.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
． |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11470.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11473.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11488.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11504.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
的法律會計集合這個責任的都是美國政府不是雷神公司所以我們才會說他這樣的報告方向是有點在誤導這個所以我們才會說這個有他認知作戰的這個一面 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11506.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11524.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們面對的是美國政府那因為美國政府有完我們認為一直以來他都有他本身建制的一個關於成本價的一個分析然後關於這個事後旅約的相關的督導然後乃至於這個集合的這個流程都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11526.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11543.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
當然我們日後會在因為基於這個案子是當然不罕見那我們會再跟美國來做這個軍售制度相關的這個這個再做好好的這個交流那剛剛陳永康委員也已經知道我們會在這部分再做精進這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11544.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11562.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我再請教部長一下就是對於這些所謂被轟台價格的裝備有哪些還有根據本席辦公室詢問國防部的說法回覆是說就像那個部長說的是透過與美國政府海外軍售管道也就是FMS但是現在因為眾說紛紜甚至有些人都認為是透過DCS購買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11566.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11581.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以才趁機台價那本席研究一下感覺流程好像又不太像商售的管道購買的裝備那部長是否可以在這裡跟大家說清楚一樣究竟具體大約是哪些裝備是透過海外軍售還是商售管道取得的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11583.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11599.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
跟委員報告我想就這個部分我們是軍售的管道這是可以肯定的是跟美國政府來簽的具體的項目剛剛已經在專報裡面已經報告了我想我們就不宜在這裡再透露過多的細節這個還請委員見諒好不好委員剛剛也在場有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11602.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11619.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
過去有幾項比較重大的軍購弊案確實都是在走直接商售管道上面發生所以我想請教一下部長就是你知不知道未來有哪些軍購是走商售而且比較龐大的譬如未來的潛艦國造是準備走哪一個管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11620.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11639.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
因為這個是今年最大筆的新興計劃。因為光這個預算就新台幣2840億了。也就是全國的人民都是非常在意這個重大的計劃。是不是有想要回答這是機密的?我想潛艦的部分當然是一個比較特殊的案例。這個部分是被海軍先說明一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11641.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11641.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
海軍參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11655.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11675.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
因為美國政府對於單一的一個整個潛艦的一個輸出他比較建議我們採取一個商售的方式來處理但是有關武器的部分我們走的就是一個軍售的方式來做那我們走商售的部分會按照我們原型艦的一個部分會有一個設立一個專門的編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11677.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11677.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11705.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11705.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
戰鬥系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11715.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11737.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那未來七艘後續艦的各項的主次系統是不是也應該走商售從不同的管道取得呢?尤其現在這一次雷神的事件發生尤其是現在的聲納這項非常重要的裝備就是雷神公司的產品嘛聽說還有戰鬥系統跟系統整合目前聽說也是美國的落馬跟雷神兩組的人馬在競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11740.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11763.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
因為這個我們整個預算爭取現在正在一個程序之中那詳細的部分我們有這個作戰需求後面會依照我們原型艦隊戰鬥系統還有相關的一個採購一個流程那我們會強化跟法務還有跟這個機合跟整個防備還有這個保密條款部分也會這個逐步來一個落實跟完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11765.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11784.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以這邊提醒部長遣件國照其實這個是非常龐大的預算對台海防衛更是非常關鍵的影響所以軍事採購其實涉及巨額的預算這是跟人民的納稅錢是非常有極大的關係所以全國的人民都是非常在意這個問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11785.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11812.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以國防部一定要趁這一次的教訓可能沒有查價是沒有審查機制要趕快檢討如何針對商售管道建立更加嚴謹的防弊機制可以嗎是我們會透過上進訪查比價跟選商的作業然後針對各個的這個不同的這個可能的商源我們會來做一個審慎的評估這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11815.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11832.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我再來再跟部長請教一下就是這次舉辦的台美國防工業會議中我們國防部的徐衍璞副部長也有受邀演講他發表的演講裡面有提到台美國防工業要共同合作產生生產一些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11833.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11858.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
本席這邊除了要呼應台美國防工業應該要深化合作促進共同生產之外我們也應該跟美國爭取更進一步的在地化維修或翻修例如我們F16D對性能的提升案就是一個實質在地執行成功的案例後續不管是新購或者是現有的是否持續爭取更多的在地維修的量能呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11859.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11875.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
空軍F16是,各位委員好,我是空軍的參謀長。F16性能提升的工業合作技術轉移部分,我們早千年都已經開始在執行,現在也正在執行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11878 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11891.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
現在F16的維修中心也已經在我們國內成立了那我們在未來也會積極爭取更多項的這個維修項目在我們國內來產生工業合作以上報告那我想請問一下部長你認為未來還有哪些領域是台美國防工業可以進一步合作的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11906.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11911.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
您說共同生產或者是在地化的部分嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11912.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11942.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
當然我們現在主要共同生產、共同研發或者是授權生產這些部分的話我想當然是以無人載具這個部分最有可能那其他的一些維修的話我想我們都會爭取因為比如說像這些我們即將獲得的這些戰車系統等等在維修我想我們也努力爭取能不能夠進行在地維修、計算能夠在地維修這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11942.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11958.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
因為我最近有聽到一個消息就是美國同意考慮讓我們台灣組裝次增飛彈真的有這回事嗎?部長覺得我們成功爭取次增飛彈在地生產的機率會多高呢?目前沒有這方面的目前據我所知目前沒有這個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11961.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11961.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11992.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11995.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
謝謝林委員。下面請陳冠廷委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
12019.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
12027.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
12054.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
12078.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好,謝謝趙薇,那我們請部長有請顧部長還有站規室的黃師長陳委員部長好,師長好剛才王定委員的質詢裡面有提到說軍售案上台灣也沒有能力進行查核處理或者是了解異常的現象那黃師長剛才的回覆斬釘截鐵沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
12079.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
12089.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
但是我後來又聽到部長說可以靠歷史採購價格的分析是指過去有這樣做現在有這樣做還是未來會用這樣子的方式去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
12092.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
12109.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
報告委員所謂針對歷史價格的分析我們做的是在和美方簽訂合約之前沒有沒有市長你剛才說沒有辦法那是顧部長回應說可以靠採購的價格分析所以這個部分是不是部長可以簡單跟我們講一下這是未來我們要採取的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
12111.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
12138.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
對,我們在這個跟美方簽約之前的話我想我們會就這個收集國內外歷史的採購價格我們會來做一個分析然後來強化我們跟美方來預約的一個能力我們會來試圖來看看不過基本上來講跟站位司長講的也沒有抵觸因為他的內部因為我們簽約的是美國政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
12138.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
12154.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
美國政府跟這個廠商之間的一個成本的分析事實上是他們內部的一個資料我們只能夠就我們所理解的這個相關的國內外歷史的採購價格加以分析之後那跟美方做一個說明這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
12156.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
12177.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
此次是美國防合約的這個審計局發現這樣子的問題那所以他們是內部稽查有發現這樣的問題那所以說跟我們讓我們知道那未來我想我們是跟美國政府再去打交道的那我們不是因為這件事情來去擔心說未來可能會面臨到問題我們是想要知道說在我方 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
12177.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
12177.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
重建這案 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
12208.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
12234.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
從建設案：您講的是那個：今天稍早有說公軍防空指揮部與美方先行簽約這件事情從建設案這個部分當然當時是緣起當然就是因為說這個裝備特別是導引的部分那已經借齊了那借齊的部分就要進行一個斷件的更換 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
12236.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
12260.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那最主要是在程序上的時候那時候應該是那個他先行發出這個發價書那這個程序上他這個發價書發出的時候沒有先行知會國防部這因此程序上產生了一個瑕疵那這個是程序上的瑕疵但是事實上這個重建車案要先編預算然後要經過立法院通過這個是還是必須要完備只是他當時他發出發價書的當下這個因為這個預算是超過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
12265.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
12266.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
接下來今天我們有提到這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
12289.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12310.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
三、「台美國防工業研討會議成效的相關部分：現在已經有制度化的一些對話機制,包含上半年在台灣舉辦的台美國防這個產業論壇,還有下半年在美國舉辦的美台國防工業會議。這是一個非常重要的軍事平台,我們也很高興說今天有特別把這個我們這次的委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12310.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12332.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
的會議裡面把它專案報告把它放入裡面去但是我還是希望就是說包含我們的蘇防國防外交委員他們能夠知道的內容因為我們都有派員去參與能夠不是只有說副部長在發表的演說的重點是什麼而是跟我們知道說我們未來的趨勢是什麼就是更實質一點的一些文件跟我們分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12333.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12360.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
你不用到文件就直接跟我們分享說在這次裡面趨勢是什麼台灣國防我們現在每次我們跟其他國會議員在討論的時候他們都會問到一個問題就是說那你作為國會議員現在台灣最需要的系統是什麼裝備是什麼服務是什麼那這個東西我在今天的專案報告裡面我看到說非常大的標題但是一些細部的這些項目我們還是希望說未來能夠給我們讓簡報給我們讓我們更能夠理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12362.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12379.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這樣的狀況因為隨著我們地緣政治台灣的地緣政治的這個局勢是越來越險峻那再加上這個供應鏈的狀況所以當然我們跟美國之間的合作是越來越重要包含這個烏克蘭的戰爭以壓衝突等等這些武器的庫存等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12379.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12409.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
每方一個國家是沒有辦法足以面對三個不同的區域上面的衝突的所以我們自己的這些產業鏈、供應鏈都必須要被除但是我們同時又很仰賴對美的軍售所以說現在已經累積的金額已經205億美元所以如果能夠爭取到美國的軍售品項在台生產那當然是可以某種部分來減緩軍售延宕的問題這些在台美的工業相關的討論有沒有在包含在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12411.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12433.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這次確實有討論,因為剛剛的報告裡面也提到了,是有涉及到這個部分。但是具體的、詳細的項目,因為這是一個公開的報告,所以我們跟美國國防部的官員或者相關的官員所具體討論的這個內容的這個部分可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12435.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12454 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
沒有,屬於避免的。我想詳情的部分可能不太適宜公開來說明。但是我現在能夠說明的就是說,因為有關於特別是涉及到無人載具這個部分,美國的方面, |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12455.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12471.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
根據這個吳克蘭的經驗他認為說在地的自主能量的生有具有這個能量來自主生產這是一件很重要的事情因此他特別重視在無人載具的這一塊那所以才會 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12472.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12473.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好,謝謝部長齁,這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12499.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12518.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
會談裡面有病人的會議當然這些就可能比較不方便說出來但是在一些細節上面說我們需要什麼樣的這樣子的服務我們現在目前供應鏈台灣的優勢跟我們的缺失在哪裡哪些是我們可以透過跟美方的合作來去增進的我想這一些部分是未來可以來去談的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12521.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12546.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
剛才提到的這個不管說無人機也好或者是這個其他的相關的這些做法我看軍用無人機的這個臺灣適合的參入的市場已經有達到170億美元所以說現在我們加入美國的工業已經不是只有軍方講軍方的事情而已它是有長大的商機在裡面可是我們的中小企業不管是說你說這些材料或者是說零件重要的部品 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12547.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12569.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
還是有遇到一些挑戰嘛這些挑戰當然首先是資安風險嘛這個我們有沒有辦法符合CNNC的資安的這個認證機制還有台灣廠商的能力跟意願我們的廠商或許是中小企業他願不願意長時間大規模大產量的去生產符合這樣子的供應鏈的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12569.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12598.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這也是有風險啊就是說他們要不要擴廠他們要不要徵聘人員來去符合美方的要求來去美方的資安要求來去確保我們的clearance有辦法達到美方的這樣子的要求這其實都是需要大量的資本去完善它的所以我想請問部長其實也不只是國防部而已啦這些部分台灣軍工產業的廠商我們能夠提供什麼樣的協助比方說是代廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12599.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12622.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
協助廠商引進這個設備來擴大產能還是更多的單一窗口協助中小企業跟美方接洽還是針對國防產業的關稅減免不知道部長針對這個部分有什麼樣的意見跟看法現在出席的部分當然就是說我們跟國科會經濟部還有說法部我們建立一個平台那這個產業呢它規模現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12626.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12626.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
國防部單一 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12655.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12676.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
國防部擔心我們的需求在平時的階段,我們的訂單就只到這個程度為止,然後後續怎麼辦呢?所以這個整個供應鏈要能夠形成,那這樣供應鏈能夠形成,它才有那個意願,然後願意擴大它的產能。 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12680.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12695.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這樣的持續性的部分就是美國事實上也看得出來所以他才會提出這個打入供應面的這個部分那所以我們一方面講白一點就是說國防部要協助來根據我們的作戰需求來幫忙這些產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12698.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12712.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
另外一方面透過跨部會的協助來給它進行補助進行研發另外我們要輔導他們能夠盡量通過CNNP的認證然後另外我們要想辦法就是說這個供應鏈的生態系要能夠建立起來這樣才有持續性 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12719.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12746.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
謝謝部長其實你講到這個生態系那在我們的民雄航太園區最近剛好我們中科院院長也有來到我們辦公室有談到那什麼生態系的做法我還是很肯定中科院它特別是在我們的園區裡面會設置一些大型的測試的場所這些大型的測試場所它可以應用的範圍就是讓這一些廠商中小企業也好它能夠省去一大部分的投資在R&D上面因為它已經有完整的測試場 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12747.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12774.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以規劃能夠某種程度對軍工產業共通的這樣子的測試的場所我想這是在過去在美國也有嘗試過那也就是我下一個問題可能會談到的就是DIU的運作DIU其實也不是只是一個所謂的小組他是也是要打造整體的生態鏈所以在DIU的部分裡面我還是要強調他們還包含可以租借國家的實驗室所以他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12775.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12803.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
你現在想像的不是一個小組而已他是在應用美國整體國家的各個不同的部門的國力那我還是要請教那我們知道美國的DIUS尋求技術成熟程度是到1到3的部分可是我看到我們國防部的創新小組所尋求的是7到9的成熟科技我想請教為什麼我們跟他的不同的地方為什麼要做這樣的區分為什麼我們跟他們在這地方不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12804.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12825.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我想應該應該要我們DIU的這個部門美國的DIU應該也不是1到3那就是1到3不好意思我們這有經過他們的那個是屬於DAPA的這個部門您的資訊上面DIU他們trial不管是這一個readiness他們就是1到3那我們的話是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12827.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12827.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12846.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12869.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
經濟部的學研中心計劃讓各大學的學研中心來做一到三的 readinessness那我們希望尋求的是產業界能夠去發展四到六這個部分七到九再由我們國防部來投入好謝謝謝謝院長那我就要了解了謝謝是謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12874.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12889.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
接下來我們請耐氏堡委員上台質詢。謝謝主席。有請顧部長。請顧部長。是,老委。先轉一個題目。這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12902.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12928.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
你上台以後強調說不講第一集啊你叫自衛權自衛權有共軍如果攻擊國軍在航機建設室等攻擊台灣的本島、外地島未經許可進入12里、領空、領海現在有一個大家外界有關心的一個題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12930.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12957.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
美國的國會議員特別有提到這樣的概念就是中國大陸如果發動對美國的網路的這個攻擊攻擊他的基礎設施等同宣戰我請教顧部長我們中華民國這個地方我們對於老共的網路攻擊我們要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12958.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12974.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
也是用這樣的一個概念要不要apply到上面的時候如果他攻擊我們的基礎設施特別很多專家都在講啊其實老公要打台灣不需要真的軍力打他只要癱瘓了我們的基礎設施、電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12976.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12979.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以網工如果攻擊到基礎設施請問部長你要不要把它視同為選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12998.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
13019.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
各位委員報告,這個罔攻我們的基礎設施,而且癱瘓我們的基礎設施,特別是關鍵的基礎設施,那比如說我們的電,我們的水,讓它整個癱瘓掉的話,那就這個部分我們認為它是一個重要的預警的徵喉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
13020.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
13040.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
就如同俄羅斯在對烏克蘭之前他在進行這一個進入到政治作戰的階段之前他也大量的去進行罔工來試圖癱瘓這個關鍵基礎設施所以我想這一個部分各國都把這個東西視為一個非常重大的一個爭吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
13042.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
13063.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那我記得應該是那個美國吧拜登他對於破壞這個由從西岸到東岸的那個油管的那個整個的設施拜登也講了重話說對於這樣子的一種癱瘓這樣的一個基礎設施他沒有辦法能夠容忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
13063.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
13092.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那我想我們這邊的話對於這個癱瘓我們這些很非常關鍵因素是我們會作為重大的一個預警徵口的一個項目來視為它是不是有後續的這一個相關的行動你還沒有回答問題啊算不算宣戰你問等於宣戰還是說宣戰潛重可不可以這樣講我現在只能夠說我們會把它作為一個非常重大的一個預警徵口來做研判不等於宣戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
13095.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
13105.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
他這樣某程度宣戰喔,就等於打了嘛,直接來講的話打的話,世界法輪大用這個幫你癱瘓就等於打了,那不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
13107.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
13125.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我現在還是回答這個委員的問題就是說我們會把攻擊我們的關鍵基礎是視同一個重大的疫警徵喉因為他如果對我們做這樣的一個攻擊他一定會有下一步的一個行動的可能性那我們的反制是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
13126.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
13155.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們的反制當然我們就...委員網路攻擊反過來要抗爭attack是不是?要不要?你好我是中天應常務長是向委員報告有關於這個網攻部分我們有我們自己的這個國防的治安的一個協防的團隊那針對戰爭...你講這個聽不到啦時間快到了你不要跟我講一些五四三我就問你你怎麼回應啊我剛剛就舉例有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
13155.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
13183.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那他網工我們網工他們啊有沒有這個能力我問你有沒有這個能力我們有沒有這個能力報告委員這個是我們有我們的機制在我們有沒有這個能力啦談判他們的基礎設施有沒有這個能力請問你部長我想我沒有辦法在這裡回答這樣的一個好那請問你中國他的網軍有沒有能力談判我們的關鍵設施有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
13185.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
13208.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我想我們也有足夠的應對他癱瘓我們這個相關的關鍵基礎設施的一個協防措施跟治安的防護系統存在他要癱瘓我們也不是那麼容易的所以他做不到是不是我只能夠說我們一直持續的強化我們的治安防護能力在這樣情況之下請問你外界很關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
13209.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
13234.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我們國防部特別你在任內有沒有可能要成立資通電軍就是第四軍組或者俗稱的網軍正式編制有沒有這樣的規劃也不能講它是網軍吧不是那個網軍這個網軍不是那種網軍我們已經有資通電軍了有嗎有啊有編制嗎有啊有多少人我就是常務長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
13238.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
13242.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
你們多少人呢?多少人?我們現在整個的編制大概6千億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
13243.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
13272.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
六千多人那很多大陸多少人大陸他是一個兵種那不是還沒有成為軍種但是有相當程度的不太一樣啦不等於第四軍吧你如果按照國軍的術語來講的話他是不是軍種他是一個兵種我要請問你那是底下的嘛我要問的是陸海空王這個是不是這個意思還是通 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
13272.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
13277.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
最後一個問題我想大家今天關心的這個題目這是這一次雷神的事情美國司法部已經判雷神要賠2億5美金了 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
13297.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
13324.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們大概可以獲得多少對不對我剛才聽你在回答其他委員講的是我們軍售然後呢我們都是跟美國政府好像你沒有辦法任何作為他賣你貴的你就吃了怎麼樣大家都知道台灣買的都是幾乎全世界最貴的然後你就是一句話國防部長就一句話因為對的是美國政府所以言下之意就是我們毫無談判籌碼是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
13327.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
13349.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我想跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美國政府本身也向這些公司購買武器所以美國有相當嚴謹的這個價格分析的制度也有相當嚴謹的集合制度所以如果說雷神把我們當盤子那如果你用同樣的道理那美國政府也不可能容許雷神把它當盤子我想這是第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
13351.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
13370.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
您這裡面提到說有關稍後部要判雷神賠多少錢多少錢這些有關這個部分的內容不盡詳實那我剛剛在精密專報裡面已經報告了那我想這些部分我們沒有辦法在這裡做公開的透露要請委員能夠理解美國還沒有告訴我們最後的這一個可以結案的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
13380.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
13393.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
另外一個在這裡面的就是他高報的這裡面有個案子就是愛國者飛彈1792億後來結一款182億美國人不給我們然後後來就叫我們再追加買他的愛國者飛彈這個事情你剛才已經講了這是違反相關的程序你們的防空飛彈指揮部 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
13408.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
13410.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
愛國者飛彈的剩餘結衣款我們要增購 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
13429.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
13444.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那就這個徵購案我們是在徵購你講是182億這個嗎不是182億是那個重建策案那個是新編的預算至於愛國者飛彈剩餘的結一款剩多少剩多少269億我們徵購愛國者飛彈那這個部分也暴力法院同意我同意我們就這個案子來續行徵購這樣子這兩個是兩件事情請委員瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
13459.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
13481.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
最後還是一句話你剛才就一推奧巴伊胡說因為是軍售不是商售面對的是美國政府美國政府就相信他所以我們就沒有任何的智慧的餘地大家都覺得說買貴了買貴了因為軍售政府對政府你一點批量都沒有變這個樣子外面感覺國防部可以做一點事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
13485.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
13507.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我想美國國防部本身也都是在跟這些軍工產業在做這個……是啊,你的言下之意就是相信美國國防部嘛,就變這樣而已啊。你就沒有角色啦。我們面對的是國防部、美國的政府。美國政府要對我們負完全的責任。阿你跟美國政府有沒有討價、討價還價的空間嘛?我問你這一點嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
13509.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
13520.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們剛剛已經講過了如果說就國內外的這個歷史採購的這個價格那如果說有偏離的一個部分的話我們跟美國會進行交涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
13522.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
13524.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
我們希望能夠在今年的第四季能夠到 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
13548.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
13549.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
接下來我們請林國成委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
13584.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13607.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好,謝謝主席。請顧部長。請顧部長。是,林委員。好,顧部長。說實在,從你上任到現在,文人部長當然有文人部長的風範。 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13609.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13633.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
但是本席在這裡特別有些我肯定有些我是不以為然因為我是當過兵的人我也知道軍中的風氣跟習慣所以有些當然可以用文人部長的立場去做文化的各種的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13634.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13652.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
有些是真的軍事的部分是不太用文人的思想去做改變這一點我想我特別要勉勵部長沒有指責的意識但是軍中之事部長責任重大這 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13654.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13679.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
保衛國家部長責任非常之重大但是我從早上到現在我看到我們部裡所有的將軍們在答詢問題的時候今天我看每一個我們立法院同事啊他來做執行的時候就是有兩種也就是我們經過的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13682.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13693.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
也就是大家一直在講我們是潘啦潘啦事實上來講我們有不得的苦衷有些當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13694.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13722.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我們要買到武器我們就覺得心安理得但是有些確確實實在整個經過的價格方面確確實實我們也難以開口但照單前收這個部分我想經過這麼久以來我們要從探討從引清風案件到現在已經二十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13722.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13747.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
二十幾年問題就是什麼?用金的問題嘛那這些以少報多或以多報高這個我們都不要談但是用金的問題是合理但是有些事情是一個制度出問題所以從我們這個國防部這個雷神這件案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13749.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13774.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
從現在埃國哲這些後面的182億這豐豐益益我也不見得說一定要相信媒體在這裡的指責但是今天所有的委員都一直在執行這些我的歸納、我的理解特別提供給部長做參考這不是一個制度的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13775.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13793.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
部長你針對這些我固然不問你說是真是假是否我們有失職可是最起碼的話身為部長一定要了解這個到底是環節在哪邊出問題部長針對這兩個愛國者的182億還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13799.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13803.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13819.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13847.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
跟委員報告第一點就是說跟美國的軍售沒有佣金這個問題存在因為是跟美國政府直接簽約的美國政府是根據他的這個跟廠商所取得的報價資料保定保定我是非常誠懇針對問題佣金的問題當然也不要去使這個天經地義美國本來就有這個制度只是美國沒有這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13848.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13869.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
沒有這個制度美國沒有這個制度美國沒有這樣的軍售方面沒有這個制度至於委員講的那個182億可能是另外一個事情就是有關那個愛國者未來的重建策案那這個剛剛已經都回答過了就是說他因為這個導引的相關斷件他到期了以後他要逐步更換 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13869.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13895.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以這個愛國者飛彈的重建策案呢就要編的這個預算是要來做更換這個導引等相關的斷件那這個部分呢是也後來文件補齊之後也報告立法院是做一個新建的一個部長你這個已經跟委員解釋過我了解了我了解我現在問你的花生這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13897.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13920.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
是否跟整個制度有問題我要問你這個問題有沒有發現到是制度的一個問題要不要改變制度的問題您說改變對這整個包括採購包括整個那個和審這整整包括什麼支付的經費等等是不是這裡有出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13922.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13945.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
軍售的這個部分的話我們必須跟美方在密切的這個溝通來如何加強這個有關於如果說這是一個詐欺的這個案件的話那因為經過這個事件之後我們當然要跟美方做一個溝通協調了解是在哪一個環節上面然後因為這是美方主動集合察覺的嘛是吧所以美方 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13946.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13973.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
主動集合察覺的這個點在什麼地方那我們等這個調查成功告一段落所以啊,那個部長所以我在這裡啊以我個人之前線基本上這整個就是我們在經過過程當中這裡面的機制問題要去改進跟加強改進跟加強所以提供給部長你去做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13974.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
14000.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這個有沒有必要重新去研擬一下在這個整個機合制度是否出問題才會產生這些種種的猜疑跟矛盾所以本席是提供給部長去做參考你仔細因為你仔細去參考一下這個是不是在這個制度去吃問題那另外一個我又用簡短的時間再來請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
14002.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
14016.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
也就是明年的我們的阿兵哥的額度是減少的尤其我比較在乎的也就是離島跟外島的兵力部長為什麼要減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
14018.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
14039.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
跟委員報告沒有減少,沒有減少這個有關相關的預算的顏額,那個我們事實上如果說,因為我們現在已經開始實施一年期的EWE了,所以如果你將志願役的顏額跟EWE的顏額加起來的話,外導的這個顏額是增加的,並不是減少。 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
14040.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
14048.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
沒有沒有沒有,我這裡的數據,你們給我的數據,這個延額是離島減少,所以這個部分我特別提供給部長,為什麼會減少,離島減少主要的原因,這個當然啦,因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
14060.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
14078.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
你可能底下給你的這些數據我們有種歷年來來做比較的話確實我只擔心的不要放棄離島不要放棄外島因為兵力的戰力是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
14078.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
14102.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
跟委員報告因為我們預算顏額跟這個現元過去預算顏額拉了比較高一點所以有些人員的維持費並沒有用掉那我這一次是希望他們能夠務實的編列就根據現元數來做一個比較務實的編列所以大家會以為說因為預算顏額的減少而好像這個編制人數或者現元減少但事實上實際的狀況應該是我們預算顏額過去可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
14105.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
14121.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
與世界的緣故編得高一點,那我們現在把它做一個比較務實的編證。是啦,因為部長,因為我們最主要是發現問題提供給你做參考。但軍方的事當然以你為主。但是,立法委員發現到這個問題,我們蠻擔心的,不能放棄離島,不能放棄外島。 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
14127.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
14143.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我們牽涉到我們的軍事戰力的問題沒有人就沒有戰力所以我特別要提醒部長你怎麼樣去調配我想我們都尊重但是我們發現這個問題再度提供給部長去做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
14143.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
14161.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
因為你需要保護中華民國的所以我們怕你一時的散失然後撕掉離島撕掉外島這是划不來的好不好所以沒有我想謝謝委員指教我們應該沒有大減這個外離島的這個緣額的問題存在我們只是將 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
14166.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
14167.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
14204.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
14231.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
謝謝主席,然後有請部長有請部長呃,黃岩好部長好,早上緊密報告裡面有關於雷神公司轟台軍售價格的部分我想部長態度已經表明得很清楚配合美國政府的進度把台灣該要的錢要回來我想這個態度基本上是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
14232.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
14261.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
只不過說這個雷神公司除了烘台價格以外他涉及到的我看美國的公開資訊這不牽涉到任何機密的問題我比較擔心的是他違反出口管制規定這個是在今年8月底的時候美國國務院他們所做出來的一個報告那針對這個部分請問一下國防部有沒有掌握只有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
14263.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
14265.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這是公開資訊啊不用美國政府提供給你們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
14271.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
14291.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
報告委員我們在軍售的部分我們主要是以美方提供的官方文件為主要依據這個是 State Department of State這是國務院官方網站這個稱不稱為官方資訊我覺得不會拿來路不明的媒體寫一些來路不明的資訊上來質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
14294.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
14320.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這樣就不負責任了這是美國國務院他們公開在網站上面SEC官方文件也出來了我為什麼會關心這件事情美國國務院說從2017年8月到2023年9月雷神公司因為經過好幾次合併現在合併完了以後跟名叫做RTXRTX這家公司幹了什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
14321.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
14340.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
國防物品機密資料沒有經過授權就出口到中國去我看了這個報告我很擔心更擔心的是什麼向中國採購PWBPWB就是印刷電路板這個印刷電路板會用在非常多的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
14341.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
14354.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
而這個PWB他會用在販售到其他國家的軍機上面然後把這些軍購的項目有涉及到的軍機全面都列出來了我只是基於善意 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
14356.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
14374.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
國防部到目前為止針對於美國的國務院他們已經做出了認定而且在行政上面跟他和解先賠一億美金完了以後後面是情況再追加另外一億美金這件事情啊國防部有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
14377.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
14392.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我們下去會再進一步了解一下再麻煩部長稍微了解一下順便跟美方問一下因為這個從美國人的觀點不是機密質詢我全部從他們國務院的官方網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
14393.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
14421.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
就可以下載到他裡面所認定違反的太陽他把這些機密的資訊包括竟然向中國採購印刷電路板在他們自己各自各樣的軍機上我看了嚇壞了希望這些東西沒有用在賣到台灣的武器上因為我沒有辦法一筆一筆去核對嘛那比較清楚的資訊可能在美方那邊這個部分可能要 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
14422.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
14437.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
除了有關於overcharge的部分錢要要回來以外針對國務院所做出來這麼嚴重對於RTX違反出口管制規定是不是會影響到台灣這個部分可能要請國防部了解一下可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
14437.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
14438.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
謝謝部長 下一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
14459.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
14471.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
防彈背心我們國軍用的防彈背心竟然有不肖的商人從中國進口假的防彈纖維布這根本是為了私利致國家安全與不顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
14473.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
14499.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
在市場上面大家都知道防彈背心我也不曉得當初價格是怎麼定的利潤很高啦利潤高它會造成什麼樣的效果我看到一堆本業根本不是在搞防彈背心的通通都來標有那種什麼賣電鍋的公司啦電腦公司啦全部都來標我們的抗彈纖維部那他們來標他也不是自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
14500.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
14522.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
生產全部轉包給其他的廠商他們之間中間賺一手就對了所以從國防部軍備級2017年2018年2019年的採購甚至到2020年最近護衣科技結果得標的這些廠商背後都是同一群不肖的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
14523.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
14547.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這件事情我就問了公共工程委員會大眾電腦得標大同公司得標背後有公衛公司然後有一群也不是一群就特定的幾個人他名下有不同的公司在那邊賺轉包的錢之前大家開始質疑的時候前部長邱國正他證實 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
14554.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
14572.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
不像廠商進口中國製膠貨賺1.7億價差這個是前部長證實的事情那當然出現了這樣子的弊案啊剪掉該偵辦的該偵辦該坐牢的去坐牢沒什麼好說的那但是這不像的廠商我們一定要處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
14574.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
14593.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
兩年前有人問國防部說那為什麼這些不肖的廠商沒有停權結果國防部的回應說因為工程會調解所以沒有列政府採購公報我上個禮拜問工程會的主委工程會的主委說工程會的調解歸調解停權歸停權是兩碼子事 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
14595.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
14607.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
一個是私人糾紛另外一個牽涉到公共利益然後我上禮拜質詢完了以後你們國防部也有官員來找我瞭解那請問你像瞭解你們當初到底國防部是誰做這樣子的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
14609.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14609.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
國防部是誰做這樣的回應? |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14631.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14644.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
大同公司的部門當時回應說在跟調解這個講法應該是不正確的應該是說所以這是錯誤的訊息嗎就是說他是要向工程會提出申訴的時候呢依照政府採購102條吧我記得是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14647.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14648.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
所以現在工程會還沒有做出決定? |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14675.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14699.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
還沒有還沒有因為他應該是這邊的資料是8月23號向工程會提出沒有關係那我會再回去追工程會喔對那因為現在我發現的狀況是我上個禮拜問工程會工程會把皮球踢給國防部說國防部啊根本沒有申請他停權那顯然上個禮拜工程會主委在接受詢答的時候他所提供的訊息不是正確的現在我們把他釐清了啦是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14700.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14728.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
國防部有要給他停權但他提申訴現在還卡在工程會是因為工程會的關係到現在才沒停權這樣對吧因為他823才向工程會提出申訴嘛那按照政府採購啊又等工程會的申訴審議判出來之後才給停權不好意思喔這個是2022年就發生的事情對但是是最近才提出那個應該是不是喔那如果2022年的時候國防部那時候有沒有提報他停權 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14729.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14752.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們是依照這個起訴書這112年的起訴書然後在113年5月13號通知大航空陳述意見然後6月27號的時候我們的審議將這個該公司要勘認政府採購公報然後他提出意義之後8月9號我們駁回他駁回他之後在8月23號向工程會提出這個具體處理的時程是不是可以麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14753.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14771.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
你們會後提供一個詳細書面的列表讓所有的委員都可以知道因為大家很關心這件事啊這種垃圾公司啊不孝廠商啊從中國進防彈纖維部啊開什麼玩笑啊致我們國軍弟兄的生命安危於不顧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14772.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14799.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這一定要重重懲罰嘛該停權就要停嘛如果大同公司如果大同公司在程序上面要做這樣子的拖延我們也要讓社會大眾知道嘛所以現在大同公司到底在搞什麼東西嘛除了大同跟大眾以外啊後面分包的廠商包括工位包括那些不法分子所控制的廠商有參與國防部標案的是不是應該要一併停權 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14801.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14823.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
根據這個政府採購法的規定的話我們是指對得標的這個廠商來競選好來看一下機關依照採購法101條第一項對廠商的通知屬於行政法對象除了違反鎖定採購法或採購契約義務的廠商之外還包括什麼分包廠商分以得標廠商為限喔部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14826.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14831.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
請你們回去跟工程會稍微商量一下我為什麼說跟工程會商量一下最惡質的就是背後這個工位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14856.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14876.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
結果我們搞了半天停權的對象不包括最惡質的工位讓他可以繼續胡搞瞎搞這樣對嗎?您聽得懂我的意思嗎?你如果了解整個案情的話就知道最惡質的就是背後面的廠商嘛結果最後面的廠商沒有辦法處理到這樣對嗎?這個是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14880.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14906.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
部長沒有關係時間的關係先到這裡再麻煩部長請部內的同仁把具體的狀況瞭解完了以後我下一次質詢的時候再來追下面其他的問題好我們來瞭解一下因為他現在就是說供貨的廠家跟這個分包商我們稍微把它理清楚一下好不好好謝謝好那請國防部也列表給每一個委員好那謝謝黃國昌委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14910.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14914.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
接下來,請林俊憲委員上台質詢。好,謝謝。本期邀請我們國防部顧部長。請顧部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14931.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14955.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
市長辛苦了今天大家都在關心這個雷神的事件我想有幾個事情希望再請部長能夠進一步釐清因為這個事情主要是美國2021年就在調查雷神公司那時候調查只是要查雷神公司是否有涉及行賄卡達然後查到2021年查到 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14956.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14977.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
今年2024年的大概6月7月吧就開始美國有很多媒體報導更進一步查到了雷神有台價的事情我現在舉給你看這我從那個華爾街日報抓到的華爾街日報大概在這是今年大概7月的新聞那時候查的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14979.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14992.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
卡達的那個雷神公司有沒有行為卡達然後美國國防部審計單位在進一步去查雷神公司才查到他有這個台價的事情這就案外案 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14994.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
15020.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
然後今年10月1號突然間有一個奇怪的媒體就報導雷神的台價事件好像就是說台灣是個盤那美國就刻意的在這個台價事件上台灣吃大虧我想請教部長第一個那雷神的台價事件受害國家有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
15023.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
15043.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們有掌握了一些國家但是我想我們不適宜可能將這些國家一一列舉美國有受害嗎?美國有那雷神公司是美國的公司嗎?是不是這樣?不是他是私人的我知道我知道我知道基本上他涉及在美國的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
15045.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
15070.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
對,屬於美國境內的公司美國境內美國本土的公司主要是軍火供應給美國國防部我請教如果美國也受害的話那表示我說的是台價那表示美國的審計單位也沒有辦法在軍火購買當下知道這個價格有沒有台價有沒有合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
15072.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
15094.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
對,所以這一點我們也是希望就是說因為美國現在給我們的資訊我們還沒有辦法確知就是說所以如果美國也受害我知道美國有受害啦卡達也受害啦台灣也受害啦至少三個國家啦其實是多國受害啦是是那也就是說這麼多國家的都沒有辦法在軍火購買的時候就知道這個價格合不合理囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
15096.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
15119.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
坦白說,剛剛很多人關心我們國防部有沒有能力事先就知道這個價格到底合不合理,能不能買。其實每一筆軍火採購都不一樣。我認為如果連美國都受害,那我當然強烈懷疑,那我也知道大概我們國防部也沒有辦法有能力確保這個價格是否合理,是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
15120.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
15128.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
15149.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
15174.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
美國給我們的初步訊息有一些但是我覺得我們剛剛在機密報告裡面已經報告了所以我想就不在這邊再多做說明天幕僚提醒你你要回答不確定那實際上大概差不多這個時間了所以以那個時間序來講的話那在台灣的台灣幾乎就是藍綠都受害現在確實時間還沒有辦法完全的那就是藍綠受害嘛因為他也牽扯到馬政府執政的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
15176.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
15186.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
也就是說你國防部發新聞稿提的那個內容農場他所寫的所謂他要引導成以美論啦引導成台灣是個叛難啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
15189.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
15207.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
基本上啊,就我剛回到第一個,很多國家都受害根本很難有能力說知道,因為軍火是一種很特殊的採購啦,你很難知道說這個價格狀況如何啦,每一筆都確定合理嗎?連美國都受害啦,這我剛跟你確定的啦。第二個,如果按照這個內容農場所寫的齁,那其實跨時間點來講的話,台灣藍綠都受害了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
15212.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
15214 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
15233.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
15247.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
再來我跟你確定第三點你剛有提官部很罕見的新聞稿裡面我看到官部措辭非常強烈他特別提出這是一個屬性特殊的內容農場請問部長這屬性特殊是什麼特殊法你給黨都沒辦法回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
15256.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
15257.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
15275.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
15286.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那部長,因為國防部有特別提出啦,他的時間點很敏感啦,因為剛好在中國的國慶,10月1號,所以你說那個屬性特殊的內農農場,請教喔,所以這個內農農場是境外的喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
15295.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
15310.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
是嗎?並不能說他是一個完全的境外人。不能什麼樣?他改簽責在內?他的這個整個發布的訊息還是在以國內的訊息為主。我看這個內容農場喔,基本上跟台灣以前一個政治人物曲美鳳有相當的關係。那你說這個屬性農場,不,屬性特殊的農場,那我再請教部長喔。那你覺得這個內容農場啊,是否有中國介入啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
15322.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
15338.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我現在沒有辦法給您一個肯定的答案但是我們只是認為就是說問你到現在沒有一個可以肯定的部長你當過國安局局長你這個是非常有特殊經歷的一個國安部長這個內容農長該不會重複有介入在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
15341.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
15345.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
15359.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
15362.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
15380.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
15382.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我可以高度懷疑中國介入的一個內容農場所發出來的一個刻意抹黑的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
15406.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
15433.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
因為跟委員報告就是說因為我們是認為他特意的只強調似乎是台灣這樣擔憂那事實上是美國政府也一起有購買就是我剛講的嘛所以美國政府本身也包括在裡面的話那就不是說美國政府把我們當帕納或者當凱茲因為如果美國政府本身也受害我的邏輯就是這樣美國政府都沒有辦法事先知道這個價格是被轟台的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
15433.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
15434.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
15468.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
15476.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
主席、在黨委員先進、列席總軍事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生。有請我們顧部長。請顧部長。部長好。部長,請問你認為作戰要打勝仗,靠的是軍人還是靠的是武器? |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
15492.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
15510.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我想這個愛情跟麵包哪個重要?都重要啦,所以呢我們不只要有精良的武器,我們要能源、裝備、訓練,都是很重要。很好,那目前我們都知道,目前我們國軍戰鬥啊,邊線戰鬥單位邊線也不足八成,缺額缺在哪裡?缺在陸軍?缺在海軍?還是缺在空軍? |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
15512.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
15533.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我據我的了解應該是在這個主戰部隊那應該是以陸軍為主其實各個軍種都缺啦其實都缺兵那這邊線比第一類的戰鬥部隊邊線比都不到八成那假設啦我換個問題方式那你覺得如果現在的官兵缺額是缺在哪個階層缺在軍官缺在士官還是缺在士兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
15535.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
15562.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我想應該是士兵到這個其實我們看得到的軍官士官長不缺二等兵也不缺缺的是什麼基層的士官上等兵和一兵為什麼因為我們的上士以上是跟我們一般的這個勞工的平均金融性薪資已經可以達到了但講的是薪資我們來看一下其實是制度我們看一下我當兵的時候是兩年兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
15563.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
15587.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那時候前6個月是二兵6個月之後可以升為一兵一年後你就升為上兵所以退伍前的半年我是上兵假設是這樣但是我不是上兵退伍我是下士退伍為什麼因為我在中心訓兩個月的時候他們就來挑那我被編入了士官隊我受了士官訓所以我以下士退役的退伍的所以目前因為我們兵役制度過去是4個月4個月只能二兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
15588.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
15613.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
連一兵的時間都沒有,所以我們目前4個月的志願役、義務役是一兵跟上兵缺。那現在已經調整了一個年期的義務役,所以未來會有二兵會有一兵,但是我們會缺三兵,是不是這樣子?這樣了解了齁?兵役制度造成我們基層的士兵啊,他會在這樣的一個編制上會缺,那怎麼解決?怎麼解決?未來續發一兵,未來續發回去正務一兵, |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
15617.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
15646.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我想我們在志願役招募上面還是會來加強啦那一年期的義務役服完之後是他就是一兵了啦那時候會去上兵跟士官了對不對委員好我跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們兵啊不管是招募的或義務役的我們都會盡量去滿足尤其我們從114年開始兵的緣合會越來越多我直接講啦我們有前一段時間我們急缺哨位啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
15647.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
15671.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
因為我們自願意的從軍的軍校畢業的是中衛起跳啦過去有預官的時候哨衛排長不缺後來有段是缺哨衛軍官現在我們慢慢充實了招募之後哨衛軍官不缺了往下跳我們往下看齁其實目前的基層軍事官兵的來源是這樣子軍官、正期生、專科、專業軍官班還有大專儲備軍官團服役年限長他可以終生來服役他有退休縫 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
15673.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
15675.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
15692.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
15718.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
好,我們多少亦務亦轉服志願亦成功的,您覺得滿不滿意?部長你看看我們社會青年從社會青年穆德的達成率都在八成左右,八成五但是在興訓轉服的人的達成率啊,超標啊超標,我們預計要五千八,來了六千三部長了解什麼原因嗎?如果你穆兵的目標都可以達成,為什麼現在還有缺額?為什麼現在還缺一兵?為什麼現在還上兵?為什麼還缺士官?為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
15719.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
15738.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
看下一個圖啦不是目標達標要留得住啦你的達標率九成多但是你離營了兩年後四年後離營的為什麼會離營兩個原因他起碼不續留阿第二個他想留我部隊也不要他為什麼不適合從事軍旅生涯嘛我會太處嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
15739.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
15763.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
部長同不同意這樣的分析是好往下看所以說我們要知道招募人才怎麼樣才不會被太處什麼時候招現場的軍官知道目前我們人才招募各部隊在那些義務役入伍訓的時候什麼時候招一開始第一週招還是8週之後招還是16週要退伍了才來招部長如果是你你會什麼時候去招 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
15765.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
15768.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我想我們應該你知道什麼時候去招募嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
15768.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
15769.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
你知道什麼時候去招募嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
15769.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
15772.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
你知不知道目前我們的單位在新運單位各部隊及新運單位招募什麼時候去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
15772.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
15773.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
目前我們的單位在新運單位各部隊及新運單位招募什麼時候去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
15773.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
15774.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
應該是第一週第一週 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
15778.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15796.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
第一週連藝男自己都不曉得自己是不是軍女生啊你知道第一週的課程是什麼第一週都是室內課調試第一週的興訊所有的阿兵哥都在聽什麼來自包括調查局包括空軍機場來這邊招募啦招募他去戰四年的衛兵啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15798.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15826.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
如果說他16個星期滿了他離開了你去招募他他也不留啦四個月我已經到了我要給我人生規劃合理的招募時間點對於我們部隊留才很重要你讓他受了8週的新訓經歷了軍旅的一個基本不下面的訓練他自己知道他適不適合部隊也可以評估他適不適合這時候去招才會怎麼樣容易騙但是很快就走部長你同意嗎招募的時間要不要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15828.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15848.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
委員的意見我覺得你知不知道目前都是第一週在招第一週有沒有實戰的課有沒有實體連體能訓練都沒有這時候的遇難到部隊裡面都是用什麼薪水很高啦離家很近啦單位任你選啦這樣招得進來都超標但是留不留得住 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15849.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15874.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
留不留得住?檢討一下好不好?第二個這個委員的意見我覺得蠻好的齊滿不蓄留為什麼?下次薪水快四萬二兵三萬六看起來差不多但是期待值不同我下次我可以買賣我如果是士官學校出來的我從下次開始幹我幹到士官長我可以幹到25年我的退伍的時候我的待遇呢如果一等士官長我可以接近將官 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15875.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15889.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
有鐘聲奉我收二兵你人才招募我我留四年我留八年我不會留一輩子為什麼我不可能拿到鐘聲奉是不是這樣子所以當我們對於短一期的士官兵的時候我們的招募要講的待遇我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15890.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15918.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
現在戰鬥兵的二兵戰鬥的二兵加起來看起來也不少喔四萬一千三比我們平均性是高很多喔但是他卻是24小時要待勤要待命備勤阿尤其是艦艇兵你就算是人家工作八小時領四萬塊你在艦艇上領四萬塊你八小時下了哨你還是在艦艇上阿所以很多人鼓勵年輕人要存第一桶金來海軍艦艇兵保證你可以四年存一百萬部長你同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15923.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15946.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
我說很多認識的一些年輕人他們都告訴我從軍不錯還只要志願去海軍去艦艇兵四年一桶金一百萬退伍回來考大學還有加分大學四年的學會不用靠別人我是在幫你們招募喔我要做正面的宣傳喔但是我們想想看其他人會這樣想嗎我們看看其他國家以色列他的平均二兵月薪大概十萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
15947.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15970.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
現在以下衝突為了國家賣命應該的新加坡他的國民所得比我們高他的一般戰鬥兵大概5萬2台幣考量到我們的國民所得不同美國更多了10領13萬還配宿舍你會不會覺得如果我們短一期的士官兵他如果10年後沒有終生夢可以期待現在的待遇要不要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15974.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15993.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
要知道喔短一期的10年以下的他是二類喔他退伍了之後他是二類他是農民啊第二類的他是沒有這些其他退伍其他的軍官退下來的越推修縫的部長你覺得咧你會覺得我們國軍基層的士兵士官待遇需要再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15995.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
16016.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
跟委員報告我現在正在召會進行演繹委員的意見我非常值得參考我會把它納入我們部內在討論的時候一個課題非常感謝部長我希望不要拿我們的基層的士官兵的待遇去跟他同年齡的年輕人在社會上的平均薪資中位數來比不要這樣比要跨國比 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
16017.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
16041.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
而且不要跟士兵跟士兵比要士兵跟軍官比軍官有月退休奉的期待他的職業生涯現在待遇差一點他願意接受但是士官士兵短一期的十年內就退了沒有終身奉你們要在限職的待遇上予以調升讓他覺得為國家服務為國家奉獻保衛社會有尊嚴而且有好的待遇同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
16043.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
16044.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
16076.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
16086.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
有請部長請國防部長事務方面也好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
16088.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16114.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
剛前幾個委員都已經有特別講這個程序發言的這個部分但我表達的就是說這已經不是一個機密秘密會議因為這個已經是美國媒體爆料而且比你剛剛秘密會議的資料還要更多還要為什麼還要再做秘密會議所以這個就是我本席特別提出來的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16115.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16131.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
當然剛剛有幾個委員幫你打元簽打元說雷神都已經公開這個是報告報告價格都有涉及到詐欺第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16133.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16150.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
第二、我想你們的機密都非常的清楚有多國的傷害也有好幾個廠商的傷害那競標的廠商目前你得知了大概多少如果按照機密可以公開的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
16151.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
16167.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
您說廠商還是受害的國家受害的國家我們有出過統計但是我想相關的這個部分還是容我不在這邊把它一一點名既然都已經知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
16168.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
16183.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那我們為什麼我國還要聽從這一些這個廠商或者是雷神他們所自己購買的一些武器然後我們為什麼不做一個防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
16184.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
16212.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
以下我來提出一個有關於三個主要的一個提問美國司法先前就已經對針對雷神公司報價的這個價格都已經發出了一個軍工企業發起的調查發現這些公司在簽訂非一旦接受合約的時候都已經是價位過高涉及到詐欺 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
16214.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
16224.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
以下美國軍售有特殊性不能採用一般採購的角度來看事情當然我想請問一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
16225.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
16248.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
台灣的戰略地位也有特殊性台灣是美國防堵中共的黨建牌那當然執政黨一天到晚最大捏心的來做一個宣導就是說台美的關係史上最好但台灣並沒有受到更好的待遇我們今天講一個一直把我們當作是一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
16252.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
16278.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
第二、我們已經買了205億的軍售錢都已經過去了但是我們的武器都沒有來這個你們一定要去做反應這是國人一直到現在對我們國防部一直產生一個質疑到底我們有沒有能力去把這些武器205億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
16281 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
16286.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
的這一些武器有沒有能力請它儘速地趕快移交到我們台灣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
16289.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
16310.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
我想第一點我要跟委員報告美國才剛剛宣布了第二批的PDA這個總額是達到5.67億美金那前一批的話應該是大約是113.6億美金這個都是無償的軍演所以美國對於強化我國自我防衛能力的這種協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
16312.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
16328.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
是不言可喻的所以我想還是要先說明這一點美國不是一直在對我們說要我們買、抬高這個價格貴的武器這樣的講法是不實的那第二點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
16330.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
16354.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我想相關的這些遲延的交互的這些東西的話我想三項主要的部分依據這個歸宿的話應該是說一個脫勢二比一那我們希望在年底以前就可以到那另外一個是AGM154 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
16357.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
16371.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那這個部分呢我們因為它這個產性的問題我們還在跟美國恰當另外一個是F16那F16的部分呢我們希望第4屆能夠看到第一架那我們還是希望它能夠在2026年年底以前能夠全數交易完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
16372.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
16393.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
希望這個要儘速趕快追討我們的武器裡面因為錢都已經過去了那至於購買武器我們不能當肥羊我們一定要省慎這些武器的精良不是給我們二手然後呢都發美的發美的這個以上要提醒部長那另外就是針對我們換相換相機 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
16397.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
16411.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
是否延受這個在今年的9月初發生的幻象2000的失事那首先非官或就目前失事原因的調查是是否有進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
16412.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
16432.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
當然這個是一個攸關有後面我們能不能再使用這幻象2000的這個飛機另外就是部長還有參謀長認為這是這些私事的問題是不是機械的問題還是人為的操作的原因你來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
16433.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
16449.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
是,向委員報告。第一個,委員講了幻象的延壽。這在去年我們已經跟法方原廠已經簽訂了這個延壽評估的合約。這個已經在、正在進行了。至於第二個問題,是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
16452.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
16452.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
三十年的飛機 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
16481.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
16498.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
維修的成本極高操作成本每小時將近80萬台幣那妥善率也值60%是我國三款主力戰機中成本最高那妥善率最低的機型 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
16499.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
16521.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
三、另外也因為上述的原因幻象2000一直是有延壽升級派換的討論空軍目前對此有何任何的想法還有規劃因為剛剛我已經提出這個數據了妥善率也值60%另外一次它的操作成本每小時80萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
16523.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
16549.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
那你如何降低這個成本才會延售的一個基礎如果今天沒有降低這個成本包含它的比值的話那如何採取延售因為它現在它賣給我們的這一些維修的機械這一些飛機的機械都非常的高我們國人能不能接受這個價格你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
16550.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
16576.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
校委員報告我們跟大方不只只有原廠還有其他各我們會有開放各個通路然後跟開放式的合約來爭取各項的這個器材的維修還有供應所以都會有不是都是單一廠商來做提供的那這價錢都是公開透明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
16577.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
16596.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
公開透明沒有錯啦你們要原意的條件不能以現在要元素然後它的基建的價格到現在還沒有辦法降低那這樣的話對我們國人來講的話是浪費了人民的公帑啊所以你要提出這個方案我剛剛已經提出了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
16597.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
16617.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
向委員報告這個器材的供應都是有必要性的因為要維護維持機隊的妥善率那我們事實上我們的妥善率也都一直在維持在我們預定的陸班妥善率以上以上跟好我現在問你對幻象機進行的嚴肅的驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
16620.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
16645.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
規劃到明年的7月底那若驗證後決定元素換箱機預估可再服役20年但20年後可能已經是六代機的天下那換箱機的元素若無法確保法國原廠搭配升級尤其在落後的航電系統跟飛彈部分未升級的話其戰力即非常有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
16646.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
16661.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以如此的延售是不是能夠划算所以這個你要評估你能不能把這些評估報告順便給我一份然後再來你們在對外是不是可以延售的條件好不好你要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
16662.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
16681.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
是跟委員報告我們這個延壽合約在延壽之後幻象戰機可以從現在的本來的7500小時提升到9000小時可以延長6到8年也不是委員剛剛所論起的說可以延長20年你們的論述啊20年啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
16684.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
16685.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
國防部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
16699.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
16706.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。三、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
16721.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
16749.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
對,好,你回答得非常好但是你們在做延售的過程的這個前線應該要評估未來延售它的基建的提供能不能符合國人接受的價格如果延售要提供我們因為要升級能夠延長它的壽命當然裡面的基建包含升級它的整個的武器的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
16751.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
16771.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
當然我們要關心的是我們能不能接受它的價格它的價格如果它跟你變本加厲那我們是不是元素的問題就要考量所以這個就是我剛提出來的問題嘛因為這邊有提出能夠在整個的一個雷達這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
16775.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
16792.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
韓電系統或飛彈這個部分的升級那你們提升的條件是不是比現在更能夠既有戰備的條件戰力的條件委員是的提升之後還是會維持他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
16794.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
16795.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
16811.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
16836.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
都是一樣的沒有說拉抬的這個情況以上報告如果它的元素的價格如果不符合國人的期待的話是不是再考慮到另外的機種然後考慮一次購買那這樣的話不要再為了這個機種裡面的元素然後變成我們要承載的這一些負擔的經濟的壓力這一些國人的公帑好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
16837.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
16856.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我們雙座機的部分現在才比較面臨有延售的問題剛剛提到單座機的部分是還沒有那至於剛剛委員提到的其他的相關的機種部分我想我們會在作戰需求來進行審慎的評估好以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝黃仁委員顧部長請回接下來我們請鄭正前委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
16873.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
16875.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
謝謝主席,我想請一下顧部長有請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
16883.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
16908.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
是,政委喔部長好,已經超過1點鐘了那還有很多委員也等在質詢那國防部的同仁也都還在現場就是可以感覺到國防部還是蠻矜持的啦那我在想說因為今天我們在講說雷神這個案子的時候那您之前也回答過就是很多委員就提到說因為我們軍售跟商售畢竟不太一樣那我在想說因為我們軍售的時候美國政府有收取3.2%的行政費 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
16910.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
16913.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
還有1.2%的那個合約管理服務費是不是這樣子?也是。是這樣子嗎?那除了3.2%的行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費還有沒有其他的費用? |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
16925.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16928.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16945.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16970.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那我想說請教一下部長因為那個雷神這個部分因為有福報那坦白說我覺得美國政府主動發現這件事情然後主動查辦然後通知我們我倒覺得這個部分倒不是以美論我覺得反而這件事情我覺得反而要給美國政府某一個部分的肯定至少我角度是這樣子的那我在想說因為雷神這個福報這個軍購案的時候呢那我想問一下台灣到底被坑了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16972.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16991.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
跟委員報告我想美方在進行照會的時候有跟我們提供一個初步的金額但是我剛已經在機密手報已經報了那我想這些都還在司法調查程序進行當中那我想我們據台美之間的默契在司法程序還在進行當中我們就不以公開說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16992.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
17015.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
部長這部分我也尊重不過因為你在回應媒體的時候你有特別提到不當款項你會全數追討回來嗎我想請教在全數追討回來的部分是針對現在被披露出來的部分還是所有之前跟雷神之前說的一個軍購案的部分都會重新去檢討然後把不當的部分討回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
17016.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
17036.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
第一個當然是就現行美方所查出來的這個部分的金額,美方會跟我們恰上就是說將雷神最早回來以後還給我們這是第一個。第二個其他案的部分呢美國現在已經也在逐一的清查,全面的清查當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
17036.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
17037.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
對,美國政府的告知是如此。 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
17053.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
17080.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
OK 那我想說這部分我想說我們國防部這個立場的時候我就肯定還是要持續去follow後續的一個問題那我這邊延續的部分就是說因為美國政府既然有收在軍售當中有收3.2%的一個行政費還有1.2%的合約管理服務費那我們對台軍售的部分他們對台軍售的部分不斷的延遲那這個部分我們是不是可以也要求他們能夠去加以 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
17082.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
17084.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
17108.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
17136.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
這個部分我想說到時候您再給我一個書面一個資料因為在之前我們也關心過很多那我現在想要特別講的部分是因為在這段時間的時候中國武力威脅器不斷讓我們國防部的裝備去狂用錄製的一個產品7月份的時候國防部清查全軍158處所有24室使用錄製的一個產品包括4個案子是錄油器還有資料處理器然後800多部的一個行車記錄器都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
17137.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
17144.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我整理了一下從2022年到今年為止大概有10個案子都是國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
17146.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
17156.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
17176.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
17201.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
李電池也被認為是有影響資通訊安全的一個部分那針對這八個案子當的這十個案子裡面有八個案子都是中科院的那部長因為你本身是中科院的董事長那所以說我們覺得這部分肯定要加以特別的去關注那針對這個部分我就特別針對剛被揭露出來的因為之前的部分很多大家也都討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
17203.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
17220.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那麼在這個剛被揭露出來的部分竄改錄製電池的這部分他在寬頻那個通信機裡面標案在這裡面請部長嚴厲去查到時候在整個驗收的時候務必不能夠被 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
17222.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
17243.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍� |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
17249.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
17274.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
這部分的時候我們希望部長這邊能夠加以去查核然後對於中科院這個部分這兩年多來十個案子有八個案子都是中科院這邊的我們希望部長這邊是不是能夠加以特別的去關切然後針對這每一個案子的部分也給本席一個具體的一個回應我們後續到底是怎麼處理這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
17275.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
17279.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
17297.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
17324.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
所以現在正在驗收是不是?上個禮拜交貨但因為颱風所以是跟廠商約好今天和明天這兩天我們進行逐項的驗收因為這個部分我在想說還有裡面的那操作部還有什麼那個去模糊標示這個部分我們希望都能夠一一的去把它給挑出來好不好針對國家的安全的部分我想國防部這邊肯定是責無旁貸中科院這邊肯定也是責無旁貸好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
17325.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
17346.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
對,中間剛回答了,剛委員提到這兩個案子,因為還沒有進行驗收,所以我們會按照嚴謹的程序來進行驗收。好,謝謝部長。那其他的案子之前處理得如何,也請給本席一個書面回應。因為到目前為止只有天空飛彈那個案子有進入司法程序,好不好?謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
17352.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
17363.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
謝謝正任前委員請國防部也給正任前委員他所需要的素面資料接下來我們請洪孟楷委員上台質詢主席謝謝,麻煩再請我們顧部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
17383.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
17383.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
17385.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
17412.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
王委員部長本期還是關心雷神這個案件跟很多委員都一樣我們看到之後還是覺得很心痛即便你有提到2013年馬政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況2017年蔡政府時代的時候也有這樣的狀況但是國家是一體的不管是誰執政重點是這些都是中華民國國民的血和錢也都是國民的納稅錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
17413.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
17431.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那有被福報或者是說被這個中間有人上下其手的地方如果說不是我們這樣退一萬步想如果說不是今天美方那邊主動有這些稽查而公布這樣的報告是不是到目前為止此時刻我們是沒有能力去掌握或者是揭發這樣的一個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
17433.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
17456.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
因為我們不是直接跟雷神公司簽約這個部分我們是跟美國政府簽約所以美國政府有一個完全的法律上的一個責任他要進行相關的集合所以美國政府才有辦法就這個合約面來看的話他只有他能夠對雷神公司來進行部長就您這樣子講的意思是今天被 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
17457.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
17475.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
有人從這中間上下起手是美方的責任咯。美方集合不夠及時。不然從2013年,我們就2013年到現在10年了欸。所以換言之,因為本時我怎麼知道2013是您在媒體,你跟媒體講的嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
17476.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
17502.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
就是說是不是2013年也有類似的採購案件可能有這樣的狀況那我們到2014年10年後我們才知道那換言之這個責任是美方的集合不夠及時快速詳細我想就這個年的部分我想我就不宜在這邊再再度說明因為我剛剛已經有在機密專報裡面做了一些說明美方的告知的內容到現在為止呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
17503.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
17518.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
也還沒有全盤的這個詳情所以我們還是等待美方的整個調查報告完畢之後才能夠對外做整個完整的說明那美方的調查報告什麼時候會完畢現在沒有辦法告訴我們一個確確的期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
17519.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
17543.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
現在也沒有辦法告訴,它也不是機密,是你也不清楚。是不是?是機密你就不用講,但是我現在只要確認一下。美方有告訴我們相關現在的一個進度,我剛才機密專報裡面也有講了。是。那所以現在應該是美方在最後的階段,那但是它什麼時候會完成,然後做完整份的報告,那我想這個部分還要等美方通知,我們也會跟美方密切的來協調聯繫。好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
17545.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
17555.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
但是你上禮拜五跟媒體講說有2013年所以說可能他的案情這個案件是橫跨過去這十幾年來都有牽涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
17559.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
17583.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我想能夠講的就是說主要涉及兩個案件那這個兩個案件我想就沒有辦法詳細的說明但是它的這個啟動調查之後所發現的這個哪一年它有告知我們那我大概就是轉資美方的告證內容那詳細的情況還要等美方的完整的調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
17584.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
17610.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
是啊您講的因為本席會看到也是你上禮拜五接受媒體訪問的時候說的嘛好那拉回來啦我覺得防範未然事情也發生了那重點是未來我們還是要走下去啊我們也還是要軍售我們還是要購買武器但我沒有希望是說我們購買是我們需要的武器我們也希望美方可以給我們我們需要的武器那您是不是有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
17611.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
17639.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
其實就這個溢價能力或空間來講有沒有辦法適時的參考過去的歷史價格或是參考其他國家購買相關武器的一個價格來去做我們談判的籌碼這點有可能做得到嗎我想我現在只能跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美方的報告出來之後我們會跟美方來共同檢討當時的問題到底是出在什麼地方所以有機會跟美方一起來做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
17640.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
17661.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
美方的報告出來我們一定要跟他做檢討因為美國政府也受害那美國政府都受害那美國政府當然要大家清楚那我們當然要探討出這個原因是什麼這是第一個那第二個就是說我剛剛已經講過了我們對於軍售他跟我們互完全的法律上的責任所以美國政府要對我們負責不是雷神公司對我們要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
17662.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
17680.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
我們能夠跟美方來共同加強之後我們看看我們這邊國防部對於在採購類似這樣的軍售案的時候我們來有什麼可以加強包括我們查閱這個國內外的歷史的價格等等的部分來跟美方一起做研討說 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
17681.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
17707.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那這些部分這個價格的合理性我想所以我的意思就是說美方的報告出來應該會有一個比較詳盡的一個說明就是說問題出在什麼地方因為他畢竟是經過好幾層的這個分析然後他還有這個集合的就是整個案情會釐清真相大白水落石出那這樣我們比較能夠找出原因來跟美方共同交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
17707.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
17719.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我想請教因為你剛特別講一句就說我們對美方所以美方對我們負責那雷神對美方負責是不是這樣對那您也提到就說該求償的我們定追償到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
17720.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
17741.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那換言之是美方要帶我們向雷神球場還是我們先跟美方球場美方先電給我們然後他再跟雷神球場跟委員報告美方已經承諾會跟我們跟像這個帶位球場跟雷神球場會跟雷神球場因為合約跟委員還是報告是合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
17742.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
17743.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
因為你也是法律人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
17771.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17800.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我只想請教一個實務上的問題如果說美方跟這個雷神公司我不知道說後續他們會不會有官司什麼要打那如果說他們這個時間是要延宕了他沒有在第一時間馬上能有辦法來就做這個球場甚至雷神公司他們可能也會有他們自己的一個說法那我們是不是都要等整個官司完畢之後我們才有可能分拿回我們應拿的部分我剛剛在《經濟新聞報》已經說明美方告知我們的進度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17800.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17821.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
所以美方有告訴我們後續他們的做法以及我們的權利應該怎麼樣能夠捍衛的地方 是不是是我剛在機密專報我想如果為那個相關的這個國防外交沒關係機密就機密我沒有要我沒有要了解我只是說要確認一下說這樣的一個後續是不是有我們都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17821.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17838.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我想這也是我們為中華民國納稅人捍衛每一分每一毫該用則用該審則審我想這是一定的一致的態度美國政府有跟我們保持一個密切的聯繫有充分的告知現在進行的狀況好謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝黃孟凱委員部長請回接下來我們請張祺凱委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17864.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17875.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
請國防部部長報告一、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17889.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17915.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我只能夠說我們對於國防的預算一直在逐年攀高所以每一年都是歷史新高那今年也是歷史新高那我們會根據我們的財政預渡來穩健的來增長我們我另外特別問請教你這個問題是你已經社會國安會的秘書長嘛對不對你跟美國常打交道你對他們的了解我們這個國防支出到底是要差不多拼多少是比較合理的現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17916.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17928.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
明年度算是最多的對不對?包括特別預算有6400多億在我們GDP是2.45而已喔現在如果像川普講的要獅子大開口10%做得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17931.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17956.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
我想我只能夠說我們現在差不多就在2點還不到2點45到2點5左右那因為我們的GPD不斷的攀高所以我們也一直在增進我們的增長我們的國防預算那當然如果相對比起來的話這個民主國家說這個一般在這個國防的公務預算要達到10%這個難度確實是相當的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17959.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17970.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
其實我們台灣我們這個預算最高的時候是民國38年那時候曾經84%這樣中央政府總預算的84%那時候是戰爭狀態兩岸戰爭狀態那到蔣中正先生他過世交給蔣經國的時候國防預算已經降到中央政府總預算的六成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17982.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
18010.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那蔣經國大家都知道啦經濟預算就開始大幅上升嘛到李登輝的時候變成是社福預算如果現在要像川普這樣講的我們就回到戰爭的狀態我們的社福預算我們的經濟發展的預算就會受到高度的擠壓所以本席認為期一期不可10%是不可能的那美國那邊又一直在提啊很多智庫啊美國高官說至少要有5%我們有可能往5%走嗎5%的話我算了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
18011.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
18039.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
一一二年那的GDP23兆5451億10%就是2兆3545億了那我們的總預算去年的結算是兩條6284如果真的要90%的話這個預算太高了這個對我們來講是負擔不了的所以我今天部長你們給我一個比較明確的答案你對美國的了解包括你當過國安會的秘書長我們應該是抓大概GDP的幾%是一個最合適的美國也比較可能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
18041.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
18066.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我想我們應該會依照現在的財政預渡我相信我們的國防的預算一定會維持一定的成長但是我們現在沒有辦法設定一個說我們要占GDP的多少但是今年已經在2.45了我們當然希望能夠維持陳水扁總統提過GDP的3%一直都達不到你認為有可能往上走走到3%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
18067.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
18094.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
因為我們的經濟的表現蠻不錯的所以GDP的成長也一直往上拉高啊所以GDP的成長一直往上拉高GDP往上拉高那個錢還是應該去做社會福利跟經濟建設會比較好我只能說我們的國防預算這幾年來一直在穩定的成長當然我們要自備的這個能力啦自己防衛自己不過基本上我不認為說一下子爬太高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
18095.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
18112.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
另外一個不是只有量的問題,值的問題也很重要。對啊,很多委員不管常委都在問啊,雷神這個產品的問題,現在不是只有美國現在通知我們,現在我們的潛艦也要買到雷神的這個產品是不是?這個品質有辦法保證嗎?價格有辦法保證嗎?潛艦這部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
18120.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
18124.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
美國曾經去年給我們一些彈藥結果發現有防美的防彈背心我就看了裡面一筆最特別的270萬發的這個彈藥它就是1983年 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
18145.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18169.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
四十年前的彈藥,這比進來之後270萬發的彈藥我們有用嗎?還是怎麼處理?前程之後可以用的,因為我們也自己…40年前,這不是老爺級的…跟委員報告好,軍備局可以跟您做一個聰明的說明,這種所謂的這種非精準武器的這種彈藥,尤其是彈藥本身,我們自己國家本身都有比它年限還長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18171.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18176.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
議長報告,剛剛我們部長所說明的我們的P號彈藥確實我們現在都有比國內的都有比剛剛我們PTA進來的還老而且我們的P號彈藥是沒有連線的,是沒有連線的,整個P號 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18189.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18215.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
要經過檢診檢診之後他說對是不是沒有連線不過那個AIT都講了他說他馬上在清不要的東西啊跟委員報告那一次的PDA總值換成新台幣是110億的台幣這一個這個給我們的彈藥本身它不那一個屬於一小部分占30年它事實上也有短的也有應該有 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18217.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18224.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
所以第一次的PDA雙方在運送的過程當中沒有好的檢証所以我們現在也跟美方溝通要求第二次的PDA現在剛剛拜登總統也剛宣布所以一定會共同好好檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18245.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18251.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
因為他也是在協助我們提升我們的後備戰力這一塊的部分我們相關的預算編列還不來不及那美國無償的軍援我們來BDA或FMF |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18273.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
18295.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
無償的部分也是大家雙方要共同進行來檢視的,這個本來...另外一點時間我請教一下那清德總統26號他有開這個前社會的防衛任性委員會齁我看他培養那個40萬可視的這個名利這部分,我問你一下那總統開口啦,要去培養這40萬的名利,你今年的預算備在哪裡?有準備?你要怎麼訓練?專備在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
18297.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
18319.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
這個不是國防部的部分這個是內政部不是民兵是民力這個部分本來就是包含疫警疫消跟這個民防的組織那這個相關的民防法也有相關的規定那民防的組織的部分呢那他們會引進這個替代役的來成為這個民防組織的心血然後目的當然就是說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
18321.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
18328.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為：完整會議二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
18350.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
18356.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
請民主黨動員。部長,我可以講幾個概念。第一個,如果這麼單純本來是內政部在做的,你開這個會就沒意思了。總統你去交代這個事情幹嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
18367.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
18389.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
應該有其他要精進的吧?例如說你國防部要布準哪一部分?沒有嗎?大家都只放在那個民力的部分。事實上它是整個跨部會。我剛剛講醫療任性涉及衛福部啊。那戰略物資的任性涉及到經濟部、農業部。然後另外呢通訊任性靠拔劃到數位、數化部。然後還有相關的這些包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
18390.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
18413.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
防空避難室、收容自由基站、收容自由基站也涉及到衛福部這是整個跨部會的那大家一直在執著於那個民力的那個部分那當然它是整個跨部會要形成這個整個全社會的韌性韌性如果能夠加強那我想我們可以就預防任何的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
18414.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
18414.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
我想這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
18437.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
18463.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
這個大家會誤以為說這是民兵那實際上他不是民兵嘛他是一個因為是回到內政部的所謂的整個救災而已對不對救災那當然如果任何緊急狀況發生的時候他上戰場啊沒有沒有要上戰場但是他要這個有一些相關的一些這個比如說社區你你現在台灣湖源這麼小那 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
18464.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
18471.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
另外我們做一個比較簡單的ending好不好這是網路上很多人在提的現在既然要響應全社會這個防衛韌性部長能不能呼籲現在清德總統的兒子現在還在美國對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18494.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18497.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18512.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18530.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
那就要看他們那個有沒有能夠被招入這個民防的系統的行列裡面去嗎?應該大部分都有對不對?全國現在年輕人應該幾乎都在這40萬民力裡面吧?沒有?沒有,不只不只,如果你要講全國那不只,這不只,不只40萬民眾會這樣要求,部長你應該知道民眾為什麼會提這兩個點吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18536.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18560.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
總統是團結的象徵嘛 對不對國家的領導人嘛所以他希望他家人可以參與我們國家的這個防衛嘛那會提到你也是一樣啊提到你的家人最後他們有提那個比較他們說現在黑熊部隊啊是不是應該去投入這個40萬的這個名利有特別至少你看這幾天開始有那個颱風對不對他們有可能加入我們這個整個防災嗎先斷裂先整合嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18563.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18586.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
黑熊部隊主要在宣導一些觀念跟相關的作為那事實上要投入救災這個部分的話應該還是利用我們既有的建制的民力這當然也就包括民防的力量也包括我們的疫警疫消等等的好不好沈博洋是說他三年要訓練三百萬人的是不是他們應該利用這個機會加入這四十萬的這個民力 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18589.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18617.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
我想我沒有辦法代替省委員來回答好不好好啦部長剛剛一開始提的就是人民的納稅錢我們的國防事實上如果真的達到美國一直叫我們交那麼高的這個保護費的話到底對台灣我們至少我們在要求說我們願意發錢的同時拜託一下我們的武器一定要是合適我們用的而且一定是要我們要的而且一定要提一個點最後做一個ending我們如果說買貴的東西或者在牽連上出了問題我們準備要去救責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18620.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18635.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
我們會跟美國政府來直接來要求要對我們負完全的責任希望我們每一分的納稅錢都用在刀口上好不好好 謝謝謝謝張清台委員 顧部長請回接下來我們請黃森山委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18654.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18679.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
謝謝主席。我想請國防部長。請國防部長。是,部長好。我想今天主要是臺美這個國防工業論壇又有去美國參加。那也聽到了徐副部長的演講。那其實臺灣蠻辛苦的,因為只有美國會提供給我們武器。 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18680.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18702.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
但是現在的狀況我也認為是臺美之間最好的時候也就是在這之前部長上任的時候已經發生了很多軍售延宕還有相關的後勤的東西送來不夠好這些狀況部長你也才上任沒多久這些狀況沒有辦法解決什麼時候會解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18705.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18730.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
現在剛剛您講的這個軍售案遲延交付的部分主要剛剛提到就是說脫勢B的這個部分我想我們希望在今年年底以前那現在F16的部分我們希望在定期價的話在今年部長他這個已經變成了常態嘛就是美國現在他現在包括剛剛講的先前的庫存的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18731.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18732.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18757.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18762.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
這是我最近聽到包括徐副部長還有美國的官員在這場工業論壇裡面講的最重要的一件事情就是要做co-production |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18782.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18807.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這件事情現在在您任內是不是應該成為最重要推動的一個項目是我們重要的一項課題在去年的時候我們聽到了這個美台商會的會長他曾經說2022年開始談有關共同生產2024年會有結果可是現在是2024年那這次去還在談一樣共同生產可是好像沒有什麼進展是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18809.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18831.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
我覺得共同生產要有一些條件那我剛剛回答其他委員的問題的時候也提到了就是說現在美國在認為這個相關的細節部分我們沒有辦法一一跟委員報告但是最重要當然就是說如果可以公開揭露的部分的話那當然就是無人載具這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18831.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18833.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售涉虛報 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18855.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18872.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
對美國也已經形成一個政策我聽到智庫還有相關的廠商他們的反應就是兩件事第一個是法令的限制因為美國他必須要鬆綁他的相關輸出的規範第二就是台灣的廠商就算我們跟他們一起生產了我們生產的東西可以賣給誰還是只能賣給美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
18874.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18896.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18897.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18925.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
對我想美國也積極的在這個部分協助我們然後來加入其中的一環沒錯來解決這些問題部長我覺得這件事情如果是你任內最重要的事情第一個法律的鬆綁跟相關的規範很重要但是我相信美國為什麼會對這些規定有這麼多的嚴格的限制就是擔心在台灣曾經發生他們給我們的機密的技術可能會外流洩密的問題是台灣不可承受之重對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18927.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18950.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
我想這應該可能也是美國的關切項目之一因為我在財政委員會所以我一直在關心有關所謂的融資公司就看到今年的檢方起訴兩起國安泄密事件包括海軍陸戰隊還有海巡署的軍職士官他們因為欠了錢在網路上APP去融資借款然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18952.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18975.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
財務管理不當最後變成被要求竊取國家機密這樣的憲民案部長有掌握嗎目前為止有多少黑數我想這個部分的一個軍風機案件我們個人當然這兩起你知道吧是這兩起是起訴的是沒有起訴的有沒有不知道我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18977.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
19001.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
我希望我們能夠掌握國軍第一讓他融資借款現在供股航庫都有給他們軍人的優惠但是借不到錢的人還是有那怎麼樣了解他們的用錢的狀況或他是不是有生活上的需求在部隊裡面是不是會去向外面借款 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
19002.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
19031.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
雖然我們的規定非常嚴格不准向不法機構借錢但是什麼是不法機構好像也沒有相關的明確的規範第二個已經發生兩個案例今年就兩個案例那我想請問一下我們現在有什麼管道可以讓這些國軍弟兄有機會得到比較優厚的條件去借到可能借到錢解決他生活上的困難而不至於成為這些不法集團甚至可能會成為泄密 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
19032.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
19035.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
19052.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
19080.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
部裡面在自己的軍隊裡面他能夠求援能夠得到幫助他才不會成為外面的人變成把他當成鎖定的對象你知道外面的這些相關的APP只要軍人不用徵信只要你是軍人就借錢、地利而且不需要抵押品什麼都有這些狀況我覺得軍方要好好的掌握而且這些相關的APP主委當過金管會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
19080.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
19093.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我覺得這個部分是除了國防之外剛剛講如果我們要美國同意我們在台灣能夠生產相關的國防產業的武器設備我們首先要先保護好這些相關的資料的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
19094.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
19121.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
當然好不好,所以部長就這個部分是不是可以給我一個書面的回覆就你們現在針對國軍的相關不管他是在借款或者是他在生活上面有困難你們現在的一些處理的狀況還有相關你們所掌握的現狀可以給我一份書面的報告嗎好,我們來還有這兩個案例他受到的影響也麻煩一起給我好嗎,謝謝好,好,謝委 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
19125.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
19128.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
謝謝黃珊珊委員也請國防部給報告接下來我們請羅志強委員上台諮詢有請部長有請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
19152.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
19177.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
羅委員部長好因為我在總統府服務過所以最近對於所謂的總統在會見國軍將領的時候因為起立問題造成的一些風波我自己是有一些納悶就是說到底現在總統府安排移捷跟軍方跟國防部在移捷上的一個所謂的溝通上到底有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
19178.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
19190.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
我把它分成事前事中跟事後我以前的狀況跟你現在狀況到底相同首先其實總統歷齡的一個場合是一定會喊總統到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
19193.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
19214.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
跟委員報告一般應該是會啦其實就我以前的經驗不是每個地方都會啦有些場合他會有喊總統到但有些場合其實也不會喊總統到但不管有喊總統到沒喊總統到一般來說總統進到比如說一個這個我們講說政務首長的會議或是說今天有軍事將領在的地方一般來講與會的人會怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
19218.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
19231.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
一般與會人應該會起立會起立嘛對不對那其實也通常一個慣性如果說今天沒有一個總統到了統一指令的話大家起來就可能就是個別起來嘛可是看到旁邊有人起來大家就會全部起來嘛這人之常情嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
19234.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
19255.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
我想委員問的話就是說當天的狀況確實是在我們的移結上面沒有做一個好好的溝通所以就這個部分這是我就要講問的第二個問題啦就是說到底現在的移結溝通的環節是怎麼樣?比方說我看到那個徐小新委員在質詢的時候你們會來給了一個交際科專員嘛是他來溝通移結嘛是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
19262.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
19283.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
沒有這個是就因為這個部分我並不是很清楚但人是人人是聯誼市長是剛剛有提到就是說事前有做一些溝通那麼這個部分當然以剛剛聯誼市長講的為準不過在現場的時候我並沒有看到有任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
19284.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
19284.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
19306.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
19331.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
因為我們的認知是說他覺得說我們那個比較一個溫馨的場合嘛然後他說我們不用進去那我們認知是應該是那個以前的所以他認為不需要起立我們這段我們不知道但是你不知道那個誰知道我要跟部長說一下剛剛已經講是交際科的專員現在怎麼樣現在不是這個專員不是我沒有要否認就是說我的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
19333.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
19349.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那是誰在移節溝通上說不用站起來的嗎?沒有人這樣講沒有人這樣講?對,沒有人這樣講就通通誤會一場?對,那個那你這樣子陷將官為不義喔我剛剛已經跟部長說過了如果沒有人要求大家不用起立的話正常狀態下會怎麼樣?請問?應該是要站起來對,應該是要起立那顯然這些將官們都不懂移節囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
19358.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
19375.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
不管有沒有總統,喊不喊總統倒不是重點欸。這個你不能糊弄我喔。因為我在總統府工作過。各位委員報告,我們疏失的地方是我們沒有跟他們那個交際可以講清楚。然後所有將官到裡面,因為那是一個茶會。你這個說法,說實在話,我覺得就是在搪塞了。為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
19381.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
19408.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
你今天跟我講沒...第一個要嘛就有人跟你溝通要不要站起來不用站起來要嘛就沒有人溝通不用站起來跟委員報告我們跟那個專員溝通的是說這個時間點我們國防部要不要有人進去就我們懲判當然要不要有人進去然後他們跟我們講說不用進去那我們疏失的地方是說沒有跟他們講清楚說那後面的這些相關的程序應該怎麼走 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
19409.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
19417.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
你到現在為止什麼都沒解釋清楚欸那到底是誰說不用站起來啊沒有人講沒有人講那部長來來來部長我跟你講你們讓總統背鍋了啦你沒有人講為什麼今天我們的將領們都做到將軍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
19429.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
19448.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
總統進來就算沒有人喊總統到你覺得他們該怎麼樣應該是一個圓形的一個作為的安排不是部長府裡的所有的會議或者是今天總統他們不管參加任何地方我管你是圓形座位還是方形座位啊不是嗎你剛剛已經講過一般是要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
19450.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
19464.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
我這樣子講啦今天這個事情事前事終都沒做事後我覺得也是個問題就算發生今天沒有站起來的情況在以前總統府馬總統做法的話也不會當場去講什麼啦一定事後怎麼樣跟誰講 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
19465.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
19492.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
事由跟你講跟部長講不是嗎所以整件事情從前中後全部都粗暴才會有今天這個移節的問題那你這是現代總統於不義啊外面的報導出來變成是好像他這個很愛發飆啊第一天報導確實是如此啊沒有沒有這樣的一個狀況跟我說你們的澄清也賣很多拍啊我直接跟你講國防部第一天的澄清稿你有看過嗎你有沒有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
19493.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
19515.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
我幫賴總統來跟你們講一下第一天澄清稿第一不澄清內容二不澄清摔文件是等你出來才澄清這澄清對總統的今天的尊嚴我比民進黨還在乎欸所以今天如果不是事實你們第一時間就要講清楚那到現在為止誰說不用站起來也講不清楚謝謝謝謝你們的自治強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
19525.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
19539.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
接下來我們請楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝主席本席想邀請部長請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
19548.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19551.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
政府國防部有解嗎?因為在媒體報導當中這一次的美國軍火商 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19560.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19580.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
雷神公司他說他惡意提高了對外軍售價格造成我方的損失你在受訪的當時你說這一次是美方主動調查並告知美國軍售制度有防弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19581.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19581.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
請做說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19604.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19630.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
跟委員報告有關這個退回這個款項的部分美方有初步告知那我剛剛在機密專報裡面報了那我想我就不以再公開來說明那剛剛在能夠有聽到機密專報的部分都有聽到我們美方的一個初步的一個給我們的一個照會那我想整個的部分整個要退回的款項應該還是要等美國整個調查程序完畢以後才能夠置信 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19630.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19643.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
是這個是民眾大家看到這個訊息都嚇一跳所以在這邊請教也要謝謝美方通知我們那請教因為他們有防備機制我們有沒有我們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19644.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19665.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
跟委員報告,我剛剛都一再的回覆就是說因為我們是跟美國政府簽約的那美國政府要對我們負完全的責任所以美國是美國去跟雷神公司簽的不是我們跟雷神公司簽的所以我們現在的困難是我們沒有辦法去直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19666.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19687.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
對,雷神公司,我們是跟美國政府來就合約的雙方是我們跟美國政府聽到你真實的回答那我要請教部長這是常態還是少數的案例您說發生這個惡意對,類似到這樣子對,如果美國不告知那我們也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19688.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19700.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
報告這是極為罕見的一個案例還好你回答這樣子是極為罕見那當然您剛才也說了美國政府要負全責是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19702.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19719.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
美國政府會就因為跟我們有合約的是美國政府嘛所以美國政府當然要對我們負相關的這個責任包括不管是在法律上這個集合的專案的集合上面那等等這些都要負由他來負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19721.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19748.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
這是目前國防部給人民的一個回應接下來本席要請問也就是軍購除了這一次的問題之外現在坊間大家都認為最嚴肅的一個議題還是研製所以在這樣的情況之下不管是這一些魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷這一些都有研製的問題是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19751.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19775.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
我想還是站櫃師簡單跟委員報告好請做說明報告委員跟委員報告我們主要的項目在經過與美方協調之後目前只剩下年底交運的托二V跟目前仍在做產線測試準備的AGM-154C遠攻飛彈還有F16V-8拐動這三個軍購案目前仍在延長其他的已經慢慢都跟上進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19776.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19790.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
其實要慢慢跟上進度那三個延宕的部分我們有沒有預計要怎麼交回來呢?怎麼談判呢?結果如何?剛剛講拖四B的、二B的這個部分我們希望在年底以前可以交互 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19791.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19819.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
因為它原來產製的成品沒有通過測試現在已經通過測試了所以我想今年的第4季我們希望能夠全數交裝那F16V這個拐動的這個部分我們希望第4季的第一架機能夠出來以後我們希望還是在2026年能夠全數交運完畢這是我們跟美方的要求我們跟他們的要求另外一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19820.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19821.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
你所謂的競速,我們要延後多久可以給我們? |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19843.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19845.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
在原則上就在115年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19861.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19886.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
什麼時候交第一批?年底之前年底之前來交第一批本期之所以提問也就是不希望民眾他對我們的政府有這麼多這麼多的問號提出之後要說明清楚讓民眾還是對國家有信心這是非常的重要因為我們在之前看到國防部的監察長那麼他們公佈報告他說去年部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19887.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19915.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
他說去年的12月收到美國依照總統撥款權提供的軍備出現了彈藥過期包裝混亂無法使用甚至防彈被新造出來的這個圖片是潮濕發霉的連美國在台協會的人看過都說像是清掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19915.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19916.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
哪一小部分?你這做什麼組織呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19944.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19945.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19965.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19967.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19993.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
20006.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
所以外界對於整個就是說他去過度的去強調那小篇幅但是我們現在不是在推脫啦我們覺得既然有這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
20009.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
20036.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
教育的過程有發生這些狀況我們是跟美方有積極交涉所以第二批的PTA美國的拜登總統已經剛宣布嘛也是5.67億這都是無償的軍演那這樣應該是高達清台幣差不多將近十億3.65加5.67十億就兩匹加起來近乎十億多這樣子第二批的部分我想一定他已經承諾一定會檢整好再交付給我們這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
20038.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
20065.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
部長談論到這裡最重要的就是最後這一句話而不是他交的品項很多很多元項目多數量多所以少部分如此我覺得我們不應該用這個來推動我承認我接受委員的意見就是說不管是怎麼樣都應該好好的檢視那所以第二次的PDA就是剛剛宣布了5.67億的部分我想一定會跟他雙方好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
20066.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
20094.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
因此我們在國際關係裡頭我想國家的這個互動都應該秉持的平等互惠的這個原則我們中華民國在整個產業科技文化這些軟實力或者是民主的價值的這個發展上面絕對是世界村最重要的一員所以我們應當要好好的謹慎絕對不能再有這樣的一個情勢而且讓人民來恐慌不安對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
20095.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
20123.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
跟委員報告我覺得美國就是因為非常重視台灣的價值不管在經濟安全在地緣政治在這個相關的這個這個第一島鏈的一個位置上面都來都然後在國際航運的這個這個如此頻繁的這個在台灣的周圍的航道上面他任何台海有事都會影響整個全球經濟非常非常巨大也會重創美國所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
20124.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
20148.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
這表示我們的重要性啊對那我剛剛提到的就是說他就是因為這樣你看兩次的PDA金額都是相當大一次是2點多億3.6一次是5.67億美金這個都是無常軍演要強化我們的後備戰力、部隊戰力跟我們的作戰韌性所以這個部分你要想想我們自己的預算我們都編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
20150.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
20154.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
本席之所以願意這麼多的時間給你充分的說明清楚主要的目的要讓國人安心這是第一個第二個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
20174.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
20174.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
謝謝,謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
20205.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
20221.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來王宏威委員王宏威委員不在接下來我們請吳麗華委員上台諮詢謝謝主席有請顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
20238.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
20257.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
部長好,我在這邊想要讓您了解一件事情其實我在去年有接到族人一個陳情陳情的原因是說因為他們去要蓋房子要到縣府要去申請結果被打回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
20258.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
20273.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
那他才了解說原來他們是位在加東炸射靶場的境線區那我了解了之後呢今年更多人來連署400多人為什麼因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
20274.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
20275.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
我跟部長讓您瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
20290.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
20310.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
這個一開始跟我陳情的部落他們其實是在政府早期的千村政策民國四五十年就陸續搬到山下現在的縣居地那我去查呢他們什麼時候被放進來的我查到的是106年的公文還看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
20311.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20336.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
是到107年的時候他們突然就被放進來了影響到的有我們原鄉的話是來義鄉跟淳日鄉的9個部落那我再繼續去查呢他到底進線高度是多少啊結果發現呢107年的前後還不一樣像105年第4作戰指揮部的公文是寫限建30公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20337.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
20354.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
一百一十二年八軍團指揮部寫的是現建高度四十公尺那到底是怎麼一回事我再去查原來查到他其實是在八十年他用的是八十年的公告那之後有沒有呢沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
20354.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
20370.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
就是能夠追到的就是80年的這份公告那實際上呢我們這個管制區它的限界範圍的劃定公告及管制作業辦法其實在77年的時候有這個法條出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
20371.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
20385.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那麼我們看到他確實在80年的時候有做過公告那為什麼這個陳晴的人說他是在103年他去縣府要申請的時候被打回票原來是因為在103年7月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
20388.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
20401.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
這個作業規定辦法有做過最新的一個修正但是我要講的就是說這個整個程序非常的混亂然後地方照理說應該會有說明會也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
20403.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
20423.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
那麼我看了這個辦法作業規定呢我也不知道到底有沒有落實舉個例子來講他說如果原有的這個高度他是超過這個現建標準他說要在他們的屋頂頂端要裝置警示器或者是依安全規定建議拆除等等給予補償等等我有問他們說也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
20426.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
20450.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
那如果說依照它的規定如果是新建的這些建物就是違建要命令強制拆除好像也沒這麼做甚至於在這個作業規定裡面也有提到說如果對地方發展不至於造成重大影響可以由全責社管單位可以跟當地政府協商等等取代軍事限制之管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
20451.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
20451.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
20468.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20492.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
謝謝國防部在8月15號有去開一個調整評估的會議我們在9月16號也有正式發函因為地方連署的人非常多我也知道國防部在9月23號也有去地方跟地方的鄉長民意代表做說明我現在其實來這邊主要就是要讓您了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20493.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20516.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
因為這個問題越來越多人意識到會影響到明年國土計劃法上路之後他們的居住的正義權益而且最嚴重的是我們是位在山區我們的海拔其實都在75米以上像那個我接到陳情的他已經算最低的了他是75米到150米 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20518.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20539.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
所以這個辦法一限制下來我們可能很多很多都不能蓋房子也沒有辦法去做我們申請史建造這些影響很大那我希望說這個部分這個問題能夠被解決所以我特別要在這個地方請教一下那最後的結果到底如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
20542.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
20561.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
委員好,我是空軍參謀長。空軍接獲到這樣子的訊息以後,我們在前參謀長的指示下在今年的5月我們就成立了任務編組。那到現在為止我們也開了9次的管制會議。那這個過程當中我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
20564.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
20579.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
也把80年跟81年公告的這個也拿出來是審認的確是是不合理我們現在已經有研究好這個縮小範圍的這個這個情況比例地方的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
20582.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20604.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
那進度的話跟委員報告我們預計在11月底今年11月底會到屏東縣政府因為主管單位也在屏東縣政府會跟屏東縣政府說明之後預計明年我們會上案子到國防部國防部再轉到內政部一起做會選公告以上跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20605.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20627.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
因為我一直在抓這個騎乘啦明年4月30號我們國土計劃法就會正式上路5月開始很多人就會開始到地方的縣市政府去申請合法化的程序所以我希望說因為看起來那個103年7月他們受到限制呢不能去蓋房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20628.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20655.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
到現在113年那我希望說已經10年了希望可以盡快的完成公告程序那我也希望可以會同本席到地方去辦理說明會那更重要的是絕對受到軍事管制禁憲件的應該不是只有我接受陳情的這個地方可能很多地方還渾然不察所以我希望說能夠全面的來通盤的檢視這樣可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20658.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20670.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
可以做一個全面的評估。我們辦理的狀況再隨時跟委員保持聯繫,那也跟地方做溝通。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝吳麗華委員。顧部長請回。 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20684.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20688.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
邱志偉委員不在陳庭菲委員不在吳思瑤委員不在蔡毅委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20703.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20714.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員不在。蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在。 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20716.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20742.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
以登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位與書面於兩週內提供以上如有涉及機密部分請確實依相關的保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束上會 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】） |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:34 - 14:17:00 |