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| 委員名稱 |
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邁工測試一二三 |
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517.608 |
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517.97 |
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委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1769.687 |
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1795.637 |
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好我們現在開始開會齁出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員先讀上次有議事錄嗎?有有上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第一次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年9月25日星期三九十四分至九十十一分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員金輝等15人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1799.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1818.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席陳委員召資報告事項一本院第11屆第二會期各委員會召集委員選舉時間及地點業經提報本院第11屆第二會期第一次會議決定照案通過再案二一立法院各委員會組織法第三條之四規定本會應致召集委員二人三宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉第11屆第二會期本會召集委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1824.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1842.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
主席宣告推選蘇委員清泉及黃委員秀芳為本會期本會召集委員依立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第5條之規定本次召集委員之選舉以推選行之召集委員當選人依同法第8條之規定由國民黨黨團民進黨黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團書面同意推選定之宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1851.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1854.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺落之處沒有那我們議事錄確定本日會議的議程是我們邀請環境環境部部長針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1865.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1868.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們第一個是陳昭志委員黃秀芳委員還沒來齁這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1893.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1902.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
李業勤委員王振旭委員我們環境部部長彭啟明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1919.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1944.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
環境管理署署長袁旭明支援循環署副署長林建山化學物質管理署副署長陳淑琳氣候變遷署副署長徐旭成環境保護司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1947.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1966.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
徐淑芷徐淑芷水質保護司司長王玉斌大氣環境司司長張順清監測資訊司司長謝秉輝還有沒其他的官員大家謝謝大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1983.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1986.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們繼續請環境部部長彭部長報告時間5到10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1996.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2015.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席、委員、各位同仁大家好由環境部來報告垃圾裸露堆置還有災後垃圾處理的對策我們簡報大綱如下第一個是大家很關心從3個會期就談到垃圾的量越來越多一般的廢棄物因為我們國內從106年就開始垃圾的焚化爐進行整改 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2019.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2042.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以目前來魚量就不夠了所以每年大概有9到17萬噸的垃圾就可能要進去掩埋場去進行處理那有些縣市覺得說我堆在那邊堆一下子之後就會拿去燒所以他目前來看的話就會裸露在外這個就是很多人會覺得說我們這個垃圾山很多的原因那目前在112年底的時候也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2043.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2068.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本人在接任環境部長之前大概是84萬噸左右就維持在這個地方大概98%是放置在合法的掩埋場裡面那有些是堆置在清潔隊員裡面那目前到了8月我們最新的統計降到72萬噸像這張圖裡面各位可以看到就是在新竹有一個大型的床墊山就在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2069.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2097.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那目前各個縣市裡面其中以新竹縣市最多的16.8萬噸然後桃園呢屏東也15.5然後南投也是蠻多的然後桃園次之那大概我們現在努力之下已經降到49個露天裸露的地方也就是說我們沒有垃圾山百月了但是有49個這種所謂的露天裸露大家媒體其中稱為的這種垃圾山那我們要怎麼進行呢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2098.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2118.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們過去對於垃圾處理都會有這種所謂的掩埋或打包例如說我們到內湖焚化爐的旁邊那一座綠草如茵的山其實它本身過去就是裸露的但是後來經過妥善的這種掩埋覆土之後已經變成是一個地方那這個都是我們台灣過去進行的方式後來有焚化爐之後就沒有這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2119.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2147.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以我們大概會有這種掩埋附土還有篩分打包還有防災跟監控的方式三個方式來處理所以我們預計要編列12億元這個是我們過去多元垃圾處理方案的1億元那除了這個目標之外因為我們這個要逐步來進行這不是一天就可以把幾十萬噸不見所以我們會有分年來進行然後整噸然後每個禮拜要申報其實我必須跟各位委員報告過去這個資料可能是半年才一筆資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2148.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2174.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但是經過我們的同仁努力之下大概一個禮拜就可以知道露天裸露的量有多少那我們也透過AI來掌握這個量有多少那大概分為這個四個階段這個AI治理化是什麼呢第一個是說到底這個量有多少我們首先要有縣市或是地點來看那同時我們也配合CCTV可以即時看得到那個垃圾量有多少那第三階段就是說垃圾的裸露的監控到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2174.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2193.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
會不會真的如期的能夠來減少因為這個垃圾是屬於這個地方的事務所以在這段期間我們也逐一拜訪了各個縣市首長他們都很願意跟環境部一起中央跟地方一起來合作那合作其實我們也補助了一些的經費那他們也承諾了一些事項所以我們會把 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2194.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2211.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這裏面的這個進度的成果也會讓全國民眾來知道那第4個階段呢我們其實為了要掌握垃圾量過去是很難掌握的我們現在用UAV特配合AI的模組能夠來針對一些重點的廠商可以知道重點的掩埋廠知道他的垃圾量到底有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2211.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2227.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以目前呢第一個是我們要解決垃圾當然是要用源頭的減量做起但是現在的垃圾已經這麼的多了我們要怎麼解決還是從這個焚化爐來處理所以目前正在整改當中齁大概處理量大概是681萬噸未來呢到116年齁可以到700萬噸所以慢慢的就會開始解決這個問題那我們目前呢在經過這幾個月這四個多月我們也看了十幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2236.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2253.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2253.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2276.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
透過清潔隊員來集中治理所以目前有的的確會堆置爐山但是那個是會經過分類運用然後最後是例如說廚藝廠、土質廠、野脈廠、焚化爐都會來進行那另外一個各個縣市的資源的部分屏東有對我們主動提出要求那高雄市需要我們補助加班費那基隆像昨天我們去觀察他的很多的清潔車遇到一些問題我們都會來支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2278.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2302.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
包含基隆跟這個臺東我們都會給他協助那另外一個呢是我們其實垃圾要減量最重要是從源頭做起所以過去很多的媒體可能沒有看到我們的預算沒有很清楚其實環境部有基金所以目前我們算過這個目前我們的大概基金大概一年大概90億的公務基金會來進行資源回收的這個應用源頭減少這個是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2303.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2328.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們預計明年的這個源頭減量的經費呢會比去今年多了1.56億那第二個呢是源頭減量就有三個重要的活動因為國際上呢這種所謂的線索應該在年底就會來通過我們會密切的觀察來注意第二個是淨線用的管制其實一次性的飲料杯在這一次來說的話推動的非常的好也大幅度的減少我們的這個垃圾量還有一個多元的減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2328.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2350.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
但是這個競現用其實我們最近也很努力希望給那種外送業者還有這種所謂的網購業者我們也道德勸說近期應該我會找他們來一個一個談希望他們可以幫助來協助減量那還有一個最有效的就是破帶檢查這個是彰化他們特別的積極尤其彰化縣長王縣長他其實非常積極他破帶成果我們以彰化的為例然後也舉辦全國各縣市的清潔隊一起來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2357.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2381.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那彈劃的垃圾這個破帶檢查有多好呢大概少了3乘3百分之33%所以每個垃圾如果做好分類破帶檢查是一個手段但是對於我們垃圾減量是有一個很大的幫助的所以這個部分我們會強化以及這個彈劃的案例希望各個縣市都有那另外一個呢資源回收資源回收有些縣市是明顯的增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2381.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2401.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2402.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2415.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個裡面呢現在其實如果進到我們現有體系裡面一定又是會變成一個問題那這個本身就是一個靜脈的產業過去呢在這個臺灣以這種地小人稠的地方是要推動是困難的我們認為我們要以負責任來處理這個事情所以我們會歸類成 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2419.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2437.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個不一樣的例如說黑水盲或再生燃料等等我們會統一的把它盤點完之後然後呢我們會希望未來台灣有一個叫做氣候科技的循環園區全循環的示意圖也就是說任何的東西都不應該是這種所謂的廢棄物它應該做更有效的一個應用我們會導入各種的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2437.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2457.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
當然這個部分需要資金支援還有預算的這個益助所以這個是我們環境部未來會想要推動的目標也跟各位委員報告因為我也到了德國去參訪有一些類似這個循環科技的園區他做得真的很好這個其實他的產值不會輸給台積電所以我們各個縣市要推動的時候不應該只要台積電要半導體要AI |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2458.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2481.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
其實這個科技的循環園區我們應該把它正名化那最後呢也跟各位委員報告其實我目前呢會積極的在3年內3年內因為我是在端午節的時候這個主動的找我們同仁算出來本來要4年那經過我們卓院長的大力的指示之後我們壓縮到3年等於是說這個116年的6月就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2482.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2495.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
今年的6月是端午節,我們承諾本來4年那我們提早的一年希望116年6月完成這個露天裸露的情形當然這個裡面呢是先由副土打包然後慢慢的逐步來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2497.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2512.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
將地方把量能夠提升那逐步的解決這個問題那最重要的是我們希望一次廢棄物的廢棄物可以完整的處理這個要全面的升級啦那當然這個升級也需要我們支援雄安促進法也跟各位委員報告這個法呢我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2514.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2532.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
雖然過去這幾年都有在做這個法可是我們後來我上任之後也跟我們的同仁做了深度的討論目前我們正在修改當中那我們也成立一個8加N把各種的產業產官學界集合在一起希望呢在這個今年年底之前能夠送到行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2533.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2546.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們希望在下個會期再送到立法院能夠請委員來給我們充分的指教因為我們法令的改變各種的主共的改變這個才是最重要的我們會積極來做以上所有報告謝謝謝謝部長報告請問各位有沒有意見有關本次會議各項書面資料均會列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2560.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2565.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
紀錄刊登公報我們現在就開始巡打做以下宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2567.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2569.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
現在我們請登記第一位委員陳昭志委員歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2602.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2630.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
謝謝主席有請彭部長部長早安部長沒想到會期一開始邱部長跟您就一起上新聞了那邱部長說這個環境部應該要編列足夠的資源來幫助醫療院所進行檢探我覺得他的意思好像是說這個檢探的責任要歸在環境部那部長覺得委屈嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2632.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2645.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
其實不會委屈啦 就是說 委員會給我20秒還原一下其實總統是很關心 院長也很關心 我們常常在開會要如何檢探總統是覺得我們跟衛福部辦了一個綠色醫療的活動 這個很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2648.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2673.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但是呢要幫醫院找到資源所以我們當然碳費不是不可能因為衛福部比我還有錢啊衛福部是我的幾十倍啊那當然他要來做那如果環境部不可能把碳費給他嘛那當然這個時候我們就要想辦法找別的資源所以總統有提醒我啦可以透過保險業的資源來做啦所以這個我並沒有被罵啦就是撩一下啦我是跟這個邱部長說我被總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2674.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2701.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
您念了一下,量一下啦。 不會全責分工的角度來看這個檢探當然是要環境部跟衛福部大家一起合作啦那這個一起推動尤其是政策推動的這個部分那但是我要談的就是說其實這個醫療機構裡面的每一項活動都是非常高度的專業他要對這個醫務的管理或是整個機構的運作是相當熟悉那以這個角度來看其實衛福部是 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2702.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2728.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
最有能力當然也要盡起責任來幫助這個醫院尤其在現在醫院都還處在一個非常高耗能的一個階段怎麼樣來做出這個執行這個檢探的一些指標我想這個部分是是兩個部門都要一起合作我就是很公平的持平的來講因為過去我都在醫院服務所以我也希望這個政府相關機構應該一起來把它趕快大刀闊斧的列出 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2730.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2746.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
醫療機構檢探的指標來引領整個醫療事業這是我們的期待接下來也是環境部可能要多擔一點責任為了因應全球的氣候變遷等等以及全世界都在做淨零排放的趨勢跟努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2748.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2774.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那各部會都一定要從方方面面來一起著手那請問部長您的團隊目前對於如何串聯各部會進行檢探是不是有一套比較具體清楚的一個協調跟支持機制呢?好,包委員這個目前由行政院的鄭麗君副院長也跨級召集所有的各部會那我們現在在重新盤點因為包含2030、2032、2035我們都有一個新的目標所以我們很積極在盤點所以也請委員再給我們一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2776.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2786.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為其實如果照各部位目前算出來的量是很難減碳的那我們現在正在用一個各有野心各有企圖的方式來進行其實簡單的議題其實牽涉太多部門了我們瞭解但除了開會討論之外其實這個具體的行動一定要趕快來跟上我也希望未來的溝通是順利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2795.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2822.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那麼未來我們才了解一下這個進度那剛剛您也提到日前這個衛福部跟這個環境部有舉辦了一個非常盛大的綠色醫療就是醫院主管高階主管他的那個領航營的一個活動那老實說本席認為過去衛福部在這個領域綠色醫療做的還不夠多其實說等於還沒有做除了今年3月他公布了一些醫療院所探排查的結果之外那目前針對如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2823.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2823.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好,沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2844.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2859.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我想請教彭部長針對醫療機構減碳有哪些策略上建議第一個您有一些想法了嗎第二個您覺得衛福部是不是也要編列預算來配合減碳活動包委第一個是我們跟經濟部跟金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2860.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2888.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們三個部位有合作然後我們要用深度節能的方式那我們有做好分類有的是負責公立醫院像我們環境部是要負責私立醫院等於是說我們會編列一個我建議醫院不要馬上做盤查啦把節能最重要節能例如說他省了多少電省了就可以少繳一些支出所以我們目前呢應該在未來這一兩個月內會公佈我們會一套的做法深度節能幫助醫療系統深度節能的做法會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2888.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2908.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以你覺得你建議並不是覺得先做探盤查因為醫療機構我們當然是希望能夠做啦但是探盤查對醫療機構的這個負擔也是一筆支出啦所以我們會覺得說先檢探先檢探是最重要的這是很重要的好前一張前一張好那我也希望這個前一張照片再前一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2909.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2926.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
希望這個次長不要哪個醫院他通過淡白的趕快去沾光沾光以後就是官員也少做這種事大家聽到了專家環境部說最重要先節能先節能這個是很不一樣很重要的一個專業的想法回到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2930.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2932.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那這個處理執行原則後來有公告嗎有人知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2962.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2982.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
天然災害廢棄物應該是沒有因為當時在公告裡面有兩個點我想第一個事業部分由事業自行清除或委託公民營的這個廢棄物清除機構執行機關來代為這是其中一點第二點是釋然性就是可然性的部分優先用焚化的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2984.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2999.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那麼就算這個處理執行原則並沒有公告但是目前我們有這個廢棄物清理法的及相關的這個執法應該還是要按照一般的這個做法來做所以我想請教由事業執行清除或委託公民營廢棄物清除機構執行機關來執行清除這樣是正確的嗎報告委員我請問我們的防災處 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3011.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3012.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
主管機關來負責他的一個監督跟他執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3023.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3043.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那就不是事業自行清除囉?您談的是這一點嗎?他應該是自行清除或委託公民委員會去處理那剛剛我講那個原則是沒有問題嘛那我今天想詢問的是部長你是不是知道現在各縣市環保局的公有焚化爐幾乎不收釋然性可燃性的事業廢棄物您知道這件事嗎?那你知道為什麼嗎?他不收欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3049.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3065.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
跟委員報告齁,那個收的原則是要跟一般廢棄物相容的,他才會收。那有些事業他是比較高…沒關係,我跟你講,簡單的說齁,因為一般的廢棄物都處理不來了啦。所以事業廢棄物根本就沒得處理。部長,現在連長照機構產出的這個事業廢棄物,現在都沒地方去耶。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3069.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3094.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那更不要說工廠出來的這個廢棄物那這一次天災造成的失業廢棄物自然沒處可去啊部長這個問題很嚴重啊就是做不到嘛就是根本沒處可去啊包委員其實如果天災的話是先放在那個地方其實做好土炭處理不是馬上拿去燒啦好那我們來看一下廢棄物清理法基本上按照廢棄物清理法第28條就是說迷霜廢棄物是優先啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3099.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3113.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
有餘裕才有失業廢棄物的處理另外一個重點就是說中央主管機關他有必要時有調度權他能夠調度現有的廢棄物這個清除處理措施那我現在的問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3114.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3136.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那世界這個環境部根本無從調度為什麼呢因為現在公有的這個焚化爐根本沒有餘裕啊那你的調度權呢這個部分你有解方嗎要有餘裕那這個原則我們是支持的就先處理民生廢棄物但是現在根本沒有餘裕了那你的後面的調度權就不用談了啊現在有解方嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3137.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3166.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
包委員其實每個縣市它的失業廢棄物因為它是焚化爐都有跟地方政府有簽約有的是BOT的方式所以它還是有在處理失業廢棄物那現在因為剛剛好啦剛剛還非常的滿所以這個問題就會出來了那你剛才說到的時候遇到天災的時候有餘裕啊有餘裕現在遇到天災的時候就必須說先分類好然後我們再做同一個調鋪那焚化爐只是處理的一個部分而已包含了掩埋或是整個的回收再利用都是一個處理的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3166.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3167.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
事實上現在是這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3197.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3208.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
有靠山的業者就能分配到進場權配額沒有靠山沒有辦法有時候會造成地方政治人物去作梗所以環境部是不是要來解決這個問題?你們的SOP是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3212.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3224.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
目前其實報告委員其實例如說以臺北市來說的話他只願意接受外面的大概只有3%所以其實這個問題說委員是是很大嗎3%等於沒有對主席再給我一下子快好了快好了那排隊進場量因為沒有確切的這個許可這個許可保證等於任由市場喊喊喊量喊價那沒排到隊的人怎麼辦呢請問部長假如今天公有焚化爐這個焚化廠拒絕了 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3238.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3266.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那你怎麼會建議怎麼來建議這些可燃性的失業廢棄物去哪裡呢因為這個民營這個焚化業者的價格有時候很高那失業單位或清營單位他們只能乖乖的配合可是我覺得在這個情況下你人性沒辦法考驗就是會有一些業者他就開始亂到亂買那如果沒有辦法根本解決公營的這個焚化爐的問題處理量呢而且平均讓大家能夠平均的進場這個就助長非法的那個爛到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3267.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3294.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
部長對不對這個問題所以我最後兩頁投影片就是希望我有一個全循環的這個科技園區啦能夠來重新來處理因為現在其實我們環境部喔您說的沒錯這個時程要很快啦要很快對部長對於各地方政府的供應分化路供應分化路要如何公平的分配給各業者的進場權環境部現在有沒有一個底因為我還是要強調就是說環境部目前還是沒有真正對事務廢棄物有一個好的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3296.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3313.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為那個是要事業主管機關那個經濟部要負擔很大的責任那我們也要求他的各種工業區他必須要自己來處理那部長那最後就我們大概什麼時候可以有個答案嗎就是對於整體事業廢棄物的規劃的部分包括公有的量能問題然後分配權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3315.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3316.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們是希望看到整個完整規劃還要看到進度好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長繼續我們請林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3352.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3375.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
有請澎部長澎部長請部長早也感謝召委安排這一個很重要議題不過在今天質詢之前我想先感謝一下我們清潔隊所有的成員因為災後復原、街道整理還有加班來收家裡的垃圾都是有了我們這些成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3380.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3400.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
關於我們的垃圾的一個問題我在上個會期就質詢過兩次了因為垃圾減量呢減了10年多可是好像我們越減越多像天下雜誌9月的時候就有報導說臺灣的垃圾總產量那已經持續增高近5年大概已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3400.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3424.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
成長7% 去年達到319萬公噸 這些垃圾堪比101還要高 臺灣每日人均的垃圾量1.36公斤 近5年大概成長16.7% 我們超越韓國日本跟新加坡 日本跟新加坡他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3425.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3426.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
臺灣的熱色會越減越多,為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3437.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3466.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
包委員其實第一個是我因為這兩天我也跟我同事討論說這個垃圾量的計算是怎麼去處理那我本身過去是一個資料科學家所以我發現這個處理的算法齁我們還有進步的空間所以委員報告委員在過幾個月希望下個會期可以跟委員提出一個新的方案如果算那個垃圾量因為包含一般垃圾的跟事業廢棄物每個縣市都不大一樣那第二個呢是我們現在主要是外送業者還有這個所謂的網購其實這個量很大很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3466.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3494.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以這個其實也造就了這個我們的這個垃圾量居高不下那另外一個呢是我們的焚化爐因為過去都仰賴焚化爐那現在的清營量等於是燃燒量不夠了所以才會造成說天下雜誌報導的這樣的一個情形上次質詢本期就有提到我們看到戰車場掩埋場離市區不遠可是離學校很近那每當發生火災意外的時候對小朋友那就會造成比較嚴重的空污傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3495.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3516.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以從今年我從天下雜誌裏邊的研究裏邊看到說我們六都的垃圾量尤其我任養的桃園市128萬噸那六都第4可是今年我們桃園市的省計處給出來報告桃園的廢棄物的妥善處理率竟然是六都的最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3517.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3535.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以桃園許多的那個垃圾站置場已經成為一座垃圾山了像包括觀音的寶藏垃圾掩埋場那陽梅區的原本垃圾掩埋場和中壢的中福垃圾掩埋場跟龍潭的電子福的垃圾掩埋場那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3537.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3542.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
關於垃圾山的這個問題不僅只有惡臭和污染水源的質疑還有一些存在崩塌活災的問題當然這次報告你也會特別提到說未來怎麼處理可是我也想問一下質詢我在質詢到現在也4個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3567.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3584.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
不知道環境部如何幫助桃園市的環保局處理這個垃圾問題好,報告委員第一個是惡臭的問題那我有些我已經看第二次了那其實惡臭問題它經過一些清消的處理然後其實有改善但是我必須說可能有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3585.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3612.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有味道又會再起來那第二個呢火災的問題呢其實我們有協助裝飾這個監測的設備然後也顯著的有改善了但是其實像前一陣子苗栗還是有發生這個事情我們會特別注意那第三個呢是桃園的環保局他們其實市政府的環保局也非常的積極所以他們也跟我們報告說希望也希望大概兩到三年內也能夠把這個處理掉那他們先是由復土的方式把露天的燃燒的露天裸露的部分能夠先處理掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3615.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3626.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
本來我很擔心環境部會不會放生桃園可是看起來在我質詢之後環境部的確編列了3927萬元來協助我們桃園市政府針對於那個垃圾山的這些問題來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3635.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3654.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3654.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3672.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
全台的53座垃圾山消失那今年剛才的報告是說三年可是我怎麼算都有點很難理解了怎麼講呢如果說一到八月你現在減少了四個因為53降到49的話那如果算 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3673.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3688.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
你對媒體講的兩年那似乎似乎你只會去尤其如果用一到八月來算的話你似乎事實上只會減少到18場那如果說今天你剛剛提的用所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3690.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3715.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
就是三年的話如果事實上是從你上任來我們從6月起算的話的確你可以減少的是比較多一點可是還是不會把53場消滅掉我不知道說到底那個落差有到底是什麼所以等下也要請你再做說明所以你在南投的時候也提到說未來要去造那個建一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3715.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3728.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
新的粉化爐這些都是你對媒體的說詞那細緻的管理呢你也提到說未來要用AI平台來掌握垃圾量還要強化垃圾掩埋場的防災的措施甚至提到敏感 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3729.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3757.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
環境敏感地區像新竹新豐跟桃園觀音都要先來做處理可是我還是要回到這次的主題來如果彭部長在接受媒體採訪的時候都說臺灣的垃圾問題呢可能再蓋個20座的焚化爐都沒有辦法解決的時候那問題的根源就是在源頭管理那降低我們的垃圾的製造量所以我想問的是今天媒體都在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3758.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3759.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
你過去也是參加非常多的研討會論壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3761.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3789.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
時常大談某種減塑我們的垃圾減量的方法學策略效益可是政府應該要談的事實上是目標手段跟社會溝通所以想問這三個我們的垃圾減量目標是什麼因為2023年的垃圾量已經來到3200萬噸了那未來環境部3年5年8年你的目標會是什麼那第二個是你的減 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3791.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3793.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
第三個我們的資源循環促進法的進度是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3813.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3832.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
然後環境部是不是已經討論完畢送到行政院那麻煩部長回答這三個第一個是你剛才說的這個數字齁其實現在只有10萬噸減了10萬噸左右但是我們現在在發包左右發包所以應該在明年會加速的來進行所以也請委員在隨時盯著我看那個數字喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3832.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3848.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那資源循環促進法呢其實目前我們正在review當中因為我上任之後也跟同仁談了有的說要合在一起但是有的要拆開所以我們做好一個定義了所以目前我們現在重新在審思然後也把產業產官學全部都找在一起大家一起談 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3849.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3871.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以我們預計年底希望能夠行政院能夠給我們同意然後我們再送到貴院能夠來進行審查然後我們的減量的目標呢其實我必須說我們要重新建立一個國人對於這個資源回收的新的觀念目前的確都忘光了那有些縣市的其實都混在一起很嚴重特別是垃圾多的地方大概就是露天裸露多的地方就是沒做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3871.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3893.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那彰化是像這種破帶檢查是要給大力的支持的我們希望複製到全台灣然後當然啦這個我們主要的生態系裡面網購的業者外送的業者其實要負很大的責任所以我也會找他們能夠來談一談要善盡企業的社會責任不能只賺錢所以這個部分我們會積極的來進行因為他們是佔了一個很大的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3894.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3923.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那從這個源頭的減量每個人願意開始做 這才是創造這才是政府要做的事 那我們當然我們過去呢其實也辦了很多示範案例例如說我到很多的地方去宣導這個市場去減塑但是我必須說那個是一個一個讓大家能夠感覺的到要做這個事但是要整個生態系的改變我需要還有一些時間例如說我要透過產業界這種生態系能夠建立起來才有辦法做得到所以我們這個部分的會改變跟過去的方式有點不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3925.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3926.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
資源循環促進法 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3928.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3954.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
現在就是說還要花一點點時間那個一點點時間是多少?我們希望年底年底可以年底前可以送到我們已經跟行政院的長官也在討論說因為我們過去是把它併在一起但是併在一起太複雜了現在希望把它能夠把它稍微切開有一些功能我們的精神也不大一樣了希望年底能夠那個送進來立法院剛剛部長講投核是到可是最後還是要跟你談預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3955.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3973.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
因為有錢才能辦事情上個會期我就引用民間團體的數據你的終端處理跟源頭管理的話相差了22倍那今年你在環保團體在行政院抗議的時候你們也出來喊話說119年編列1.2億來做源頭的管理減量的這一部分到114年會把預算提高到2.76億可是我們現在看到你送出來的事實上是1.37億當有進步了 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3983.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3983.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
目前的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4002.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4028.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
部長垃圾山處理你的目標跟策略源頭管理也要盡早對外說明讓大家安心那第二個預算編列項目目前我們覺得雖然有增加可是好像還是很大的落差如果一直強調要源頭管理你也提過蓋了20座的紅化爐都再蓋也是處理不了的話那源頭管理這麼重要的話你的預算這麼大的落差怎麼可能解決掉問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4030.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4037.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
會後就麻煩把這相關的我提出來的結論提到我們辦公室來謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林委員謝謝部長那接續我們請圖前級委員好謝謝主席那麻煩請一下我們彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4057.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4077.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員早部長早部長今天想說跟你討論一下我們有關碳排跟減碳的問題那在2050年我們因2050進行碳排環境部有依我們氣候變遷因應法訂定五年為一期的階段管制目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4079.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4088.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我想了解一下我們現在政府在進行減碳工作上有符合這個減碳的目標嗎?從過去到2022、2023的資料來看的話就是現在只有到2022我必須說2005到2022年這段時間其實減的量很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4098.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4109.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
對啊,因為我們看喔2020這第一階段溫室氣體管制這個目標其實確定是跳票啦還有一點點時間2020是沒有達到的嘛對對對那而且我們看20222022它基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4116.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4139.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
也只有減少1.77%那部長好像在也有表示過基本上2025年10%的部分你說這好像有難度對不對有難度對有難度嘛有難度那為什麼2025年減碳10%有難度那怎麼有這個自信還是有什麼政策說在2030年可以減到23到25% |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4141.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4167.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
在2032年的時候可以減到40%這2025年10%都達不到怎麼短短這幾年怎麼部長有這個自信還是有什麼政策要去推動所以報告委員這個就是我要來從民間到政府服務公職的目標啦因為我如果沒有做到這樣我就不用我來了齁那也跟各位因為過去其實減碳現在只有到2022年那個量真的是不夠多那我們的生態系還沒有建立起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4168.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4196.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
的確這個問題包括2030的目標從我們一開始接任之後其實來算都很難達到那個目標但是因為這個總統府開了氣候變遷對策委員會之後總統院長跟行政院團隊現在都動起來了所以我們由下而上由上而下都定了不一樣的目標那的確現在有積極了那我們希望在年底的時候能夠公布第三階段也就是說我們到2030、2035的目標能夠出來但是我必須說跟委員報告我們比現在的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4197.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4198.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以我們擔心的就是因為你看現在也 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4221.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4237.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
從2020年開始也進行那麼久那2025部長上任以後看這個目標基本上應該你也感覺應該有很大的難度啦應該也蠻困難的所以當然這一方面我們部長是專家啦那能夠奠定這個目標我們也是覺得樂觀其成啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4239.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4258.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那只是說實在話我們現在就是有隱憂喔那因為在減碳的執行上我目前看到我們看這個減碳的執行上我們覺得有很大很大的變數那尤其喔現在我們的能源政策是不是跟經濟部的減碳我們是不是覺得有點背道而行 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4260.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4281.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
能源政策是屬於經濟部的責任那剛剛委員如果說我猜委員是提到的是是不是要燃煤等等或燃氣其實煤轉氣天然氣是一個過度的能源那我也都尊重那但是國際上有不一樣的對於能源有不一樣的看法那現在其實我相信我們這個行政院也在調整也在觀察這個趨勢當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4282.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4302.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以我們現在看到我們一直目標要減碳可是你看我們2023到2024我國發電的配底扣除水利風利太陽能等綠能還有再生能源等等這些都是排碳量發電非常高你看我們這一次我們現在看到我們臺灣針對這部的發電就達到82.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4308.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4336.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
現在大家在全球碳費徵收的情況下很多的先進國家都在朝著我們低碳力的能源配比而且目前我們河山一號機也已經停役這個數據是在河山一號機還沒有停役之前那現在河山一號機停役那是不是我們現在要補足這個核電的缺口那跟減碳的目標是不是就更遙遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4338.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4353.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
基本上這個目標全世界還是以綠能的提升為主當然有些國家其實核能也是一個選項之一目前在包含COVID-28的結論是這個樣子當然我必須跟委員報告因為所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4354.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4369.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
火力燃燒也分兩種一個是燃煤燃氣燃氣比火力大概少了三分之一這是一個過渡型的其實它未來也會沒有但是在綠能還沒有起來或是新的能源還沒有起來之前需要這樣一個過渡的轉換所以那個比例現在可能會比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4370.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4391.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以我們現在認為我們現在這個能源政策當然這核能是經濟部的問題可是我們減碳來我們環境的問題是環境部在處理那目前我們減碳跟能源的問題我們減碳已經嚴重落後再加上我們的能源政策現在核酸1號機停役 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4392.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4410.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
明年2025非核家園和核三二號機又要停役那你說你的檢探目標又要達到那麼大的目標這個兩個根本是背道而馳完全是相反所以經濟部的做法跟環境部的做法這個我們執政黨這兩個部會是完全相反的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4411.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4426.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
你又要減碳經濟部又在減核反核把核能停掉又去用天然氣又去燃煤發電然後環境部又說要減碳的目標要達到那麼高的目標所以我不知道我看不出這政策怎麼達得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4427.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4449.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
因為經濟部是依法辦事我不能幫他回答但是因為按照現有的法令就是核電廠就是按照這個明年的最後一個季五月初一這個是按照法令來解決那因為過去沒有提出來所以只能按照這個法令去做這樣的程序是啊所以我說經濟部的做法跟環境部做法兩個是相反的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4449.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4465.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
包括委員其實我們兩個部會有時候也都會打架都會意見不一樣的這個很正常的事情所以問題是我們執政應該的目標是要一致的嘛所以我瞭解大概我們10月底我們賴總統會召開第二次的氣候變遷委員會那部長應該會參加吧會參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4468.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4492.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
部長好像是裡面的執行秘書我是執行秘書對對那所以我也希望部長在參加這個會議的時候藉由這個會議希望能夠提供正確客觀的資訊能夠兼顧我們環保不要讓這些反科學還有帶有意識形態這些建議讓我們檢探的過程會成為我們檢探過程的絆腳石 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4493.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4508.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
對,報告委員其實這裡面也包含了例如說這種所謂的安全性的評估和廢料的評估這個都要考慮啦那我們這個委員會目前的確是請環境部能夠把各方面的這個資訊弄成是一個平台公開的讓大家能夠來有一個討論的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4510.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4522.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為其實不管是永和反和其實我們發現現在的論述裡面一邊是沒有辦法說服另外一邊對立的非常的厲害所以我們環境部會積極的現在我們正在規劃那個平台當中也希望10月底能夠跟大家來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4524.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4552.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那我想請問一下那個部長你要不要說明一下如果我們減碳的進度落後也讓民眾知道如果落後或失敗的話會對我們造成什麼影響什麼後果基本上如果減碳的進度落後的話當然全球的這個碳定價的這個趨勢已經啟動了所以基本上會變成是一個我們台灣很大的成本那對企業的轉型也會是一個非常大的壓力所以我們還是希望能夠追得上國際的腳步啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4553.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4579.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以我一直希望我們當然我們環境部也要適時的表態因為我們講減碳這個是國際趨勢不分朝野黨派而且會嚴重影響到我們經濟還有我們民眾健康等等的問題那所以現在我們一定要正視這個高碳高碳發電的問題還有我們要如何去減碳所以現在要將低碳率 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4580.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4600.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
的核能真的我覺得要好好的思考一下一直把核能廢除對於我們減碳這個過程可以說是影響非常的大所以經濟部當然就像部長講經濟部有他的期程要去做的事但是我覺得這對民眾的健康還有整個國際的趨勢還有嚴重影響我們的經濟這都是背道而馳那 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4604.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4633.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
部長也有心要讓我們環境更好而且這個不能影響到我們經濟那我們環境部部長一直在朝減碳的過程訂定這個高的目標可是經濟部的政策跟環境部完全是這個執政上完全是相反的方向所以我說經濟部的做法讓環境部的目標根本就難以達到不但沒有幫忙而且是幫到嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4634.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4654.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
報告委員其實這個是要一起努力啦那他們有他們的難處有些程序的問題那當然我們還是鼓勵綠能能夠提升為主按照目前現階段的政策目標希望綠能趕快加速但是綠能也在各方面也有很大的問題所以各種的能源在未來處理都會遇到各式各樣的問題這個是我們國家目前面臨到的處境 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4655.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4675.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好,所以我這邊當然我也期許部長能夠朝著目標前進可是說實在這2032的時候這已經執政黨已經換兩屆了我不知道到時候這個目標要由誰來負這個責任我們希望可以努力來完成啦,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝圖委員,謝謝部長接續我們請盧憲一委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4688.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4701.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們今天談論的是我們原鄉的垃圾問題那我想先請問部長就是為什麼佔置場的垃圾場還是超過100個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4710.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4724.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
你上面寫的裸露的那個垃圾場是48場可是戰事場將近100個對戰事是所謂垃圾運作例如說他到那個地方在整理分隊可是他應該也算裸露啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4724.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4729.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那我的私下瞭解是說地方政府焚化爐是很喜歡優先焚燒失業廢棄物因為可以向業者收費阿是不是因為這樣的關係導致我們的戰爭場越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4743.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4769.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
因為他們地方政府跟焚化爐的簽約的廠商有一些合約的關係所以其實我知道他們有一定的比例大概需要來燒事業廢棄物原鄉地區常常是水源的一個保護區那我們的那個我是希望把我們垃圾山尤其是像尖石啊梨山啊蘭嶼這些比較屬於觀光地區的是不是優先處理不然它永遠都停在轉運跟清運的問題你有去看過我們原鄉的垃圾山嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4770.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4793.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
還沒有我目前只到南投但是我希望可以跟委員再去看一下上次我去蘭嶼的時候還有發生過火災那你說現在是要用AI來測試對不對我希望你是因為現在比較難以達到的地方而不是很好很容易達到的地方你就先AI對不對好可以那個人數少的地方人力缺的地方就應該先做來AI來幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4794.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4824.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那也就是說目前台中市政府這邊一直停在2023年那個700公噸這個垃圾因為它的道路中斷有沒有想過用空運的方法?空運的成本是非常非常高啦那這個部分我們環環署署長有一個對策是跟委員報告目前這個梨山跟福壽山農場附近大概有700公噸因為道路中斷的關係他們是現在是協調其他可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4824.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4830.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我希望你不要忘記而且不是只有和平我們還有仁愛鄉阿里山鄉納瑪夏茂林跟桃園這些比較偏遠的地區都需要你們幫忙來垃圾清運跟轉運可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4850.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4867.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我們可以幫忙送到下面之後來處理,但是這端的交通費用我們需要跟人民會來磋商人民會的經費已經不夠了,你不能再跟他邀請費,所以你自己要想辦法我們比他們還少,因為他其實路程非常的遙遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4868.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4895.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
現在我們一直都是希望透過我們的綠色和平組織或者是一些志工來幫忙清理山上的垃圾尤其是登山路線那你有沒有走過南安瀑布一直到水裡這條山路還沒有大概要走一個禮拜的時間好像上次2022年這個綠色和平組織在仁愛鄉清了500公斤的垃圾瀑布我相信很多地區應該都是這樣只是沒有人去清那現在鄉公所常常會提那個什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4901.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4922.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
你為了鼓勵這些7年能夠在地就業或者是說很多40、50歲的已經斷層沒有辦法再從事勞力工作的他其實就可以轉化變成我們相公所來雇用他們來整理我們所有山上的道路或者是我們登山的路線不然以後登山路線就變成垃圾山了 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4923.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4944.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好你可以去想辦法嗎把這個我們我們原住民在地就業的部分也可以幫忙來解決這個環境的維護這樣我甚至在競選期間跑到信義鄉1010在看的時候我真的好希望那個林議長就是我們的環境志工每個月給他500塊到800或是1000塊的一個環境費用因為美林跟美林的距離都非常遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4944.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4945.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
委員 這個我們來列入考慮好不好 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4973.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5000.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
然後最近新竹武風鄉有跟我要求說看看能不能有一個固定式的那個激勢器因為很多人都到山上就丟棄垃圾那他們的環境部給我們的答案是說要用移動式可是移動式要有人力我們要的是固定式所以固定式的話就是不予補助那我想說讓部長來知道這個問題你可以想辦法逐年編列不一定要一次到位嘛你可以每年每年編啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5002.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5030.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
委員這個我請我們署長去現場勘查好不好OK好謝謝還有就是關於我們高空作業車現在你只有補助垃圾車跟資源回收車可是山上很多是樹枝他會打到那個電線然後造成停電就算沒有下雨也會停電那就是因為沒有這些高空作業車可是高空作業車他們問的時候就說不是環境不管的然後跟縣政府說縣政府沒有錢那到底是誰要來付這個高空作業車 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5031.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5050.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果他是這個縣道的話應該是縣政府啦因為這個是道路 這個我們環境部沒有相關這樣的用途環保局也沒有這樣的用途所以是縣政府縣政府或是說公路總局等等公路總局看那個路是什麼誰在主管的可是原住民的路常常不是縣道啊也不是常常是農路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5051.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5080.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以我在想觀光作業在這個部分還是要去想辦法解決而不是一直互相推來推去現在卓西相關所田商長跟我要一個希望能夠找到一個資源就是我們找不到所以這個部分就很像就就反正就推來推去找不到一個相關單位可以對應最後一個就是我們關於原鄉發展的露營觀光現在最多是在南投跟苗栗那現在一般失業廢棄物處理就是說我們的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5081.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5102.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們先講到那個垃圾垂帶徵收的部分目前是監食箱第一個就是48塊對一般民眾來講這48塊是非常實在是太高了能不能因為他他已經通過這個法律來代表會也公告所以我的意思是說是不是我們環境部可以幫忙這個錢至少50或者是45這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5106.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5122.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那個是我們的會計務協助處理會隨代徵收那現在的話他要徵收的對象的話是民眾所以的話有一個價錢在那邊那是不是容許就是說我們再去跟這個實際上去跟他訪問他的一個所謂的成本的估算那我們看看有沒有什麼可以協助的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5122.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5145.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
對因為48塊確實太高太高了好不好然後那污水處理廠的部分就是我們常常都在水源地然後發展觀光他一定要水保可是這些費用還要叫我們原住民來自己出比如說埋設管線啊管路啊還有水土保持計畫書啊這些對原住民來說這是非常大的成本然後已經夠難合法化了結果呢這個法規一出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5149.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5178.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
只要觸犯這個法律就要罰300萬你說誰要開露營區包委其實這個開露營區它是一個營利行為那我自己也去路過幾個營那特別是靠山區那其實他們都做得很好啦那其實我也特別問了我們的司長其實那個花費沒有幾百萬啦幾十萬而已啦然後其實這個是一個因為你要營利當然要以永續為目的那你如果沒有處理好的話那當然這個遊客就不會想去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5178.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5201.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以這個我們還是鼓勵他們要自己去做三民還是跟我提出了這個建議希望說還是由中央來幫忙至少有一些補助啦因為我們現在你看嘛你要開一個錄音區已經要花很多錢了他又要再因為這個法規又要再偵測我們的污水處理廠沒有錯這個這些事情很重要可是費用非常的高昂對一般原住民來講是非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5201.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5205.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
主席各位委員各位官員早安我也希望可以請到部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5232.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5253.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
委員長早這個照片其實沒有什麼意思啦只是剛剛有聽到您說您跟經濟部也蠻常吵架的可是我知道部長上禮拜應該也都有聽到我在總諮詢還有國事論壇的發言其實我們對於醫院未來的節能減碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5254.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5254.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
總不能． |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5272.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5289.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
每個幾個月就做這樣子的要求嗎所以看起來我覺得您牽涉的業務真的很多部門是不是未來您會覺得在醫院的碳排碳盤查這方面您會覺得需要院長來主持有很多跨部門的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5289.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5309.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
報告委員其實這個因為我的身負的這個要檢探的重任所以其實我們跟衛福部跟經濟部還有金管會我們這四個部的確是有一個密切的協調合作那我們大概在一兩個月就會提出一個方案針對醫療院所我們不是要他們做探盤查因為他們不是現在我們要列管的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5309.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5337.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
但是我們會幫他們來做深度的節能幫醫院深度的節能醫院就可以減少開支但是這個經費需要有一點點的支持所以這個支持我們會想辦法用民間的資金來帶動我們正在想辦法對今天其實主要是為了我們的醫療院所來關心這個議題所以也希望部長可以多為我們檢查您剛講到的節能是不是就在您提到的範疇一跟範疇二之內因為這兩個只佔了碳排的三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5338.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5356.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
還有另外的範疇三是關於比如說他的醫材啊藥材還有最近您也吵起來的這個抗生素的問題以及病患還有這個員工他們通勤這個在範疇三您剛講的這個節能非常好因為醫院的能源齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5357.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5361.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
台灣的醫療部門的排放量在4.6%比全球平均的4.4還要高也被統計指出我們是主要的排放國顯然這個高於全球的平均可是您剛剛提到我覺得節能這件事情非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5387.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5410.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
議員． |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5410.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5426.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
報告委員 範疇一二是最容易做的特別是如果醫院不是我們管制的話他不用那麼急著去做這種所謂的細節的碳盤查先減碳先減節電先節電節電或是省水這是最重要的那我們會跟他講過要輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5427.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5451.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那至於範疇三齁其實這個目前全世界都還在進行當中那我們的確是有在討論這個事情然後我們也在觀察日本日本有在做範疇三但是也才剛開始而已所以目前我們會提醒可以要怎麼做那我所知道的是衛福部他們也挖了一個在這個林明蘭副院長他在慈濟大林院也會到衛福部工作他未來就要做這類的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5452.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5470.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以這張他有講到說您講的節電非常重要但是光是節電很多醫院已經嚇死了星光他是自己花自己的錢自掏腰包去請員工訓練永續的課程這永續的課程部長應該知道外面很貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5471.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5478.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5491.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5518.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
心中有沒有什麼idea比如說更大的長根等等的其他醫院他們光是做範疇一跟二對他們自己的成本會花到多少的錢包委員像臺大的這個電費大概就花到兩三億那他其實最好的是他把冰水主機還有他的室內的照明還有空調整個做一個大更換那這個就要請專業人評估啦那我像我前兩天到這個能源展我就問他們他們的經驗大概也要花到幾億 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5519.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5543.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個幾億如果用ASCO的方式來進行的話醫院就不必花自己的錢但是必須說有一段時間他還是要花這個電費然後用這個轉換的方式讓保險公司的資金能夠帶進來所以目前是用這樣的方式因為這個目前如果要這麼大一筆錢深度節能靠政府的錢是無法補助的這個洞很大需要用民間的資金一起來做所以我們現在在準備做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5545.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5567.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
對我也希望您可以宣導因為當天我有看到說這個電話事件您受訪說環境部已經有具體的方案那我也問了很多我的醫師界的朋友同學他們很多都被醫院指派現在到這個ESG檢探小組去上課所以他們一一都在培訓可是你的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5569.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5598.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
具體方案大家沒有聽說大家沒有聽說甚至您剛告訴我的很多事情我好像也是第一次聽說知道說範疇一跟範疇二也許這個負擔的成本比較不用太擔心嘛對不對您的意思是這樣子就所以報委員因為這個這件事情是我們經濟部跟那個環境部扛起來然後我們找衛福部再找資金再做這是一個新的做法那當然啦我們也當然希望說衛福部可以出一點錢但是我覺得健保點出就很辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5598.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5619.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我們碳費也不會太高所以其實目前我們在從各方的這個資金來來尋求我知道您剛有講到說您的預算我我看了一下也只有9000萬嗎對沒有沒有應該都沒那麼的多我們是沒有辦法補助醫院做這個事的但是我們的一些概念或是說透過市場的機制的確是可以幫醫院的忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5620.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5637.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對所以我們會負責私立的醫院那公部立的醫院呢經濟部會來協助所以我們有一個小組就來做這個事情對因為您具備的就是所有的永續人才都在您的旗下了嘛對對所以現在私立醫院他們會覺得很慌張因為他們很多是要自己去想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5639.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5664.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
通過這個委員的機會我也可以公開喊話說醫院不要著急跟著我們環境部走不要著急可是我們只有從報紙上看到你有具體方案你還沒端出來啊因為我還沒有場域可以說啦這個要把資金找到這需要一點點時間再給我們一兩個月大家真的不要急所以關於這個永續師啊等等這些課程你有考慮未來要做國家級的認證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5666.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5695.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
其實這個永續的功能跟目標我是覺得可以重新再思考啦因為這個是市面上的商業的行為啦那真的去做節能減碳其實它有專門的這個證照所以其實這個永續的定義它到底要做什麼用我們尊重市場的考慮但是其實我們政府也有環境部也有開一些班但是那個都很便宜但是我必須說也不見得一定要去完全上這個課其實你只要有心環境部提供各種的素材你都可以做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5695.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5719.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是對那至於醫院他們現在比較擔心的就是說你的這個具體方案我等一下會有個靈體我們會希望你可以列出這個時程比如說他們要在多久以前完成範疇一範疇二多久以前完成節能然後未來你的補助計畫減碳的補助這些他們需要初步有個概念否則他們很難做未來的成本推算跟預估 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5723.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5742.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
最後再問兩個比較簡短的問題這個您很熟悉啦,氣候專家2021年的時候曾經有200多個國家簽署了格拉斯哥氣候協議他們是明確的希望可以加速減少或是移除沒有效率的化石燃料的補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5745.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5773.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這當然是要請教部長您知道臺灣現在的這些補貼是持續的下降還是持續的上升按照現在我們希望不要電價漲持續的上升當中但是我必須說這個國際上都是一樣例如說像很多的國家這200多個簽名的國家其實這個也都在上升包委員這個都是一個倡議就是倡議嘛就是我們宣導什麼但是實際上作用是一回事國際上很多都這樣那這邊本席也是只是給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5774.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5774.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5803.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5807.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請邱政軍委員質詢主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5831.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5846.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
邱委員早部長早我今天那天看了一下就是說今天碳費要拍板定案嘛我們今天要審議會嘛對不對對對對那您現在覺得是鬆了一口氣還是覺得壓力更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5847.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5864.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
其實我們都有準備好了請委員可以放心那目前因為上次委員質詢我說初期不要太高我也非常贊同所以先低後高所以要穩健上路這是最重要的我看到您的因為昨天工總有講到有當然有發出建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5866.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5888.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
當然他們說是碳費每公噸韓國的數字是200元那優惠費率大概6元那跟我們講優惠費率我們目前是你上次跟我講100好像差蠻多的那我今天當然也有看到一個我們的一個A方案就是每噸大概是30至35元這個部分有可能執行嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5889.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5914.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
現在他們正在開會所以我不知道我當然是希望說因為有一點差距就會有一點減碳的誘因所以目前我所看到他們上一次會議的結論大概就是這個的附近但是我必須說反正原則上就是不超過100元為目標對不對就是所謂的優惠費率但是我看這是初期那未來怎麼辦我看你們目標好像要調到1200元 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5916.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5936.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個是未來未來是多久以後報告委員那個是2030但是我跟委員報告因為我必須說這個碳費這種制度在臺灣推動起來就像是一個繳稅一樣對很多企業是覺得這是一個負擔我們也一直在跟溝通說如何去轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5937.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5948.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以我未來會推動碳交易總量管制的碳交易因為從這個歐盟的經驗或很多國家經驗來看的話碳交易才可以創造市場我看到今年我們4月份調了這個電費 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5950.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5978.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那央行也說了產業用電要漲12.7%產業生產成本會提高這個可能造成就是轉嫁到我們消費者身上為了穩定物價所以當時CPI上升0.27個百分點這個月產業用電又要再調整12.5%那你對全年的這個CPI間接的影響我們大概算是0.15個百分比那您覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5981.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6002.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個狀況會不會一直持續下去?我們台電的部分會不會一直持續下去?我相信國際的這個電價其實會隨著這個政經地緣政治的關係如果戰爭能夠結束的話那當然就會有一點波動啦齁但是我必須跟委員報告我們目前我們電價的上漲的CPI的衝擊我們碳費比他的十分之一都不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6002.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6017.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以我們其實能夠影響...所以你們在科證都有把這個考量進去嗎?我們都有考量 CPI或GDP的影響那也跟委員報告其實我到歐盟去也問了他們說那你們CPI是多少他們說他們沒有在算這個的因為碳費跟電價這是兩件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6018.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6043.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
但是它一定是相關聯阿怎麼會兩件事勒?它絕對是一直影響下去可能說沒有直接影響我們減碳是一個全球的價值一個責任阿那電價是電價所以這兩個是應該是脫鉤的但是我們我必須說我也知道但是電價成本提高的時候它的東西這個轉嫁到名稱消費的時候它就是提高的阿這是一定會呈現出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6044.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6067.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
但是因為我們面對減碳的責任是全世界一起動的我們也不能置身於事外對啦我也不是說不做這件事情啦那我只是希望說我們在做這些設定的時候一定要考慮到我們對這個整個CPI的影響好不好那我想我看了那個台塑他花了16年減碳的24% |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6070.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6093.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
按照你們定的優惠費率的標準,鋼鐵業要減碳25%,水泥業要減碳22%,其他行業減碳42%那我想問的是第一波收碳費的500家廠商在2026年可以用到優惠方案A的有多少家?我們是希望全部都要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6094.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6123.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
全部都要用我們希望我們希望因為我並不是說一筆錢給給國庫來做使用給環境部來做使用啦我希望都可以用我打個比方像我們進口水泥嘛這一年來為臺灣帶來300萬噸的這個碳排這個部分他要收碳費嗎目前是不用但是跟委員報告因為我們會開始來研議臺版的CBAN就是類似歐盟的碳邊境調整機制因為歐盟的專家歡迎我們臺灣所以這個就是我要講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6124.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6124.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
拜訪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6140.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6141.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6168.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6185.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我再問一下我們現在徵收碳費到底是為了淨零碳排還是我們不會搶錢的一個為了淨零碳排我希望收得越低越好因為這很多錢到底怎麼用到時候收的錢怎麼用目前氣候變遷因應法裡面有訂出一些規則我舉例例如說氣候變遷的調適天災的調適這個費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6190.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6210.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
天災怎麼調適?你是調適什麼東西?例如說好假設這個苗栗越來越熱然後那我們很多的現在的農產品可能就沒有辦法在那個地方生殖了我們要來輔導農民做一些別的事情所以他的擴及的方面是很廣很廣很廣那什麼時候這個東西會出來?我們目前碳費最快收到是後年 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6211.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6213.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
但是我們會依據法令來解決,來處理。好,謝謝部長。那另外我再問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6228.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6253.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我不得不稱讚您一下就是說今天來做垃圾餐的專案報告昨天就發新聞了那可見部長真的很重視這一塊那也是真的想好好的處理這部分那我看到您從上任到現在我們山頭有慢慢減少了好像是這最近減少的市場嘛四桌山那當然這個部分我們也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6254.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6260.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們持續一下,但是您說多久要把這個我們現在的49 49場的這個垃圾山把它降下來?53年?就是到2026年的6月 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6271.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6290.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為我端午節做了宣誓啦所以也就是剩下3年你要大概一年要一年至少要幾週一年委員不能這樣算因為現在還在很多的在發包今年現在這幾個月比較慢不能用這種學歷來看我也謝謝你啦就苗栗的您也有同意補助了大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6291.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6292.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
整個計畫大概要1.6億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6307.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6321.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
但是目前我們資源循環署因為基金規模太小它每一案最高上限只有2500萬所以這個部分在執行上來絕對是有困難的沒有辦法推動部長可不可以答應我們這個部分給我們專案的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6324.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6338.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
委員這個我們整體評估好不好我剛剛的簡報裡面有兩頁是我是希望推動台灣有一個全循環的這種所謂的支援循環園區阿如果這個可以搭配的好的話我覺得可以來考慮支援循環就是我們等於是一個大規模的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6340.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6354.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對對對我因為我認為不是每一件事情都是廢棄物應該都有他的存在的一個價值循環的價值當然啦當然你當然你如果把垃圾分類做得更好當然這個部分絕對對垃圾減量是有幫助的對那如果說有這樣的場地我們也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6355.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6379.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
由部裡面來推動因為真的是我們地方上常常碰到因為這是顯物設施嘛對當要推動的時候往往都會碰到一些困難明明就是對的事情搞到後面都不敢做所以我希望從中央開始然後來我們一起來努力好讓我們來達成我們垃圾減量好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請王育明委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6392.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6394.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
王委員早部長早部長首先本席要肯定你就是說你上任之後其實到全國各地實地去看了這一些垃圾的一個情況包括當時本席擔任召委也安排到嘉義縣的大林你也都親自出席了去查看 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6418.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6444.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
但是本席也是要講說這個垃圾處理其實挑戰非常的大當然不是只有部長的責任但是因為你今天來到了這個角色上面你就有這個你握有權力握有資源所以是要很認真的去處理那我看你今天的報告說在這個裸露的垃圾場裡面呢你們其實已經有把84噸降到了72萬噸那但是一個風災過後 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6448.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6477.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這一次的山陀螺颱風你們有沒有統計過這一次山陀螺颱風所帶進來的這個製造的整體的垃圾量它破壞環境所產生的垃圾量大概有多少包委員因為那個風災離現在結束還不到一個禮拜我們通常是一個禮拜統計一次現在資料還沒有進來所以你們還沒有掌握好還沒有掌握到但是以這一次它對於南部的影響光是這個公共區域我們看到的這個應該垃圾量是增加不少所以你好不容易下降的這一些垃圾可能要瞬間 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6478.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6493.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
要暴增上來了那在這麼多的產生的垃圾呢這幾種有涉及到一個問題就是地方政府他平常可能沒有編列這樣的一個預算突然暴增的工作量這個是清潔業的工作量 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6494.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6522.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以風災水災過後這些垃圾清運的補助我看到你在報告裡面特別提到你有特別有一頁特別提到說各縣市垃圾清運恢復正常那各縣市經費需求屏東有164萬高雄市需要加班費基隆台東還在盤點是各縣市需求予以協助請問你這是一個常態性的機制還是這次颱風才有 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6524.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6548.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
委員這常態性的就是說遇到災害的時候地方有他的這個準備金應變的那如果不夠的話他會來跟我們申請那算是凱敏颱風的時候有補助嗎有我們金額是不是請我們署長來來署長是會跟大家講一下你們補助的標準是什麼還有你經費的來源是來自哪裡是我們的那個移緩季節還有我們的準備金都有那會預先 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6550.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6575.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
先撥到地方政府,像113年我們先撥了四千零五十幾萬到地方政府那後續如果不夠的話地方準備已經用完之後可以依實際的支出狀況來跟我們申請那你都會補到足嗎有一個分配的比例啦原則上我們盡量來做那會不會比較晚申請的就沒有也不會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6575.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6597.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
會不會那六都會比較多其他縣市比較少不會不會不會不會不會不會好你們事後把那個標準給本席喔就是我報告委員那個那個標準就是依照他實際受害跟所以很彈性對不對對啊但是一定要核實如果沒有核實因為有我們後面的會計審計的制度會去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6597.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6617.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以彈性標準都在署長這邊,你們決定?就是依照實際的所以他如果報100萬就可以有100萬,報200萬會有200萬,也沒有啊?你的最高上限是多少?目前是沒有所謂最高上限的,但是所以你非常的彈性齁,這個我聽懂了,就是完全是市、地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6619.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6634.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我知道,但是你說多了也沒有,你也沒有一個上限你也不知道你的補助標準是什麼我是覺得這個部分是有必要的但是呢,看起來你們其實是沒有一個統一的標準這個就是我接下來要講的現在其實我們看到颱風 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6635.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6662.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個垃圾清運像以高雄來講他4天放假結果那個場面很驚人就是清潔隊員喊說快滿了快滿了就是而且大排長龍所以這個有關於風災這個垃圾的清運標準你們現在有一個什麼樣的標準嗎還是都是授權地方政府如果連放4天4天都不收還是說他可以試這個風雨的大小比如說每天可能還是公告有一半因為就我所知像新北 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6662.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6686.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他就有去公告我們今天就是一趟這樣子那這一趟大家可以把垃圾拿來所以就不會有這個垃圾山所以大家不會亂丟那目前有一個同意的做法嗎沒有因為這個垃圾處理是地方的事務那你們要督導嗎因為這一次可以看得出來你看四天都不收的情況民眾也困擾那那個清潔人員瞬間也是爆量其實也是蠻困擾的我建議這個部分這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6690.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6706.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
事實上你們現在已經升個環境部了不是什麼都是地方政府其實如果看到類似這樣的一個亂象因為這次風災那可以做的比較好的現實就可以他是怎麼做又兼顧到清潔人員的安全又兼顧到民眾的需求然後有一個好的公告就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6706.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6731.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
不會像是這樣子大家擠成一團我是建議可以有這樣做好謝謝委員 這個我們來研議一下好不好好 謝謝那另外一個這次最辛苦的其實坦白講就是我們地方的清潔人員但是現在地方清潔人員的福利我覺得如果跟其他單位比起來其實都還是比較差的比如說像消防員來講消防員如果是死亡的慰問金他們一發就是10萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6731.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6753.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
但是對清潔隊員來講他的工作過程如果是死亡的話就只有2萬元就是在福利上面其實還是有差異另外一個就是我們現在還是一國多製我們現在雖然定有清潔人員清潔獎金的知己的要點但是我想請問環境部現在有多少縣市真的有發清潔獎金發到1萬元都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6757.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6759.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我印象裡面最低的應該是6000塊左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6780.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6797.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
6000塊左右所以這個是我看到我們其實蠻多辛苦的第一線的清潔人員他們也在講他們現在有點同工不同籌在不同的縣市去享受到的福利是不一樣的因為就像剛剛志王講的都授權地方政府那地方政府有財力好的有財力差的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6799.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6815.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以就變成這個福利上面其實有落差這個部長你現在上任之後我不曉得之前有沒有關注到這個部分但是地方清潔人員坦白講他們在第一線盡心盡力幫環境部非常大的忙那這個部分我們中央可以幫他們做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6817.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6843.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們會來研究一下好不好就是說因為這個真的是屬於地方的事務這個我之前也問過我們的同仁怎麼樣來幫忙那這個給我們一點點時間好不好那我希望這個部長回去可以再研議一下就是說今天由原來的屬升格為現在其實是部其實應該要他的意義在那從一次的風戰我們都看到這些地方清潔人員真的是加倍辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6843.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6857.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
但是他可能就是地方縣市政府財力不一可以拿到的這個回饋或福利其實是不一樣的另外一個你們基本的執行植物死亡技術基金你們在114年還短處了308.3億那這個部分要怎麼處理這個是最基本的應該要編組的結果是短處的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6867.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6895.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
跟委員報告齁我們目前大概還1億9千萬的基金拉阿那個依基金的姿勢來支那當然我們希望發生植栽的機率能夠繼續降雖然300多萬的這一個不足308億喔不是萬沒有沒有300多萬喔300多萬是不是喔抱歉那這筆基金如果依照目前的支出大概還可以用50年這個請委員放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6895.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6921.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以不會有不夠的情況嗎?因為這個時間的關係我覺得我們要把很多政策落實基層的照顧其實是非常重要那我希望對於這些基層的這些清潔人員他們現在福利保障不足的部分部長我希望你可以去正視這個問題而且他們訴求已經非常久了就是這種一國多製的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6922.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6943.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我希望未來這個環境部去爭取到更多的預算那由中央就是來抿平這樣的一個現實之間的落差所有的我們的清潔人員在第一線他做這麼辛苦的工作我想他們的福利保障待遇這個中央應該要出來幫他背書幫他幫忙好不好好我們研究一下謝謝好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6948.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6949.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6975.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6994.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
委員好部長早部長大家都知道你以前是氣象專家對於氣象預報頗有心得我想請問對於這一次的山陀而颱風路徑真的很詭異在我們台灣真的非常的緩慢我們都在想說他到底是什麼時候進來滯留非常久然後讓我們緊繃了將近一週部長我想請問你認為對於這一次颱風的氣象預報是否有失準的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6999.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7023.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
報告委員因為這不是我的工作職責所以我上任之後也謹守這個規範都沒有對外的一個發言不過我必須說因為氣象預報本身就是很困難這是颱風入境又很詭譎但是本來就要用這個監測取代這個預報所以如果我們回頭看這個數據的話其實我必須說我們的氣象工作人員有做到他該有的職責但是還有進步的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7024.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7048.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
謝謝部長我想是面對這種越來越極端的氣候即便我們科技在怎麼發展或者是即便累積在怎麼多的經驗我想會遇到的狀況還很多我想尤其是這樣詭異的颱風和詭異的氣候我想也是大多數人的這個共識所以我想面對這樣的氣候我們應該是部長應該是不是也認同我們應該要料敵重演當然是要重演對嘛要重演嘛對 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7048.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7068.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
好但是呢某大公司的前董事長對於颱風架這件事情多有批評首先罵很多民眾說趁著颱風架出去吃喝玩樂逛百貨公司根本看不出必要那所謂颱風架根本是地方政府討好選民的政治操作再來又說放颱風架在他看來是缺乏韌性的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7069.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7085.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那部長你會覺得這個颱風架是政治新假期或是民眾缺乏韌性的爛草莓表現嗎?我曾經參與過很多地方政府的這個颱風架的放假的決定那目前我是認為是政治的其實是很低很低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7086.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7103.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
當然民眾總是希望多一點放鬆的機會這個是人情所以這個制度到底有沒有調整的空間我個人認為是可以有但是也請委員知道說我們台灣社會對於這個颱風架的看法已經非常的民粹了所以要改不是那麼容易做得到的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7105.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7134.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那好吧那我覺得你剛剛也說了就是颱風假有其必要性我想在極端的氣候之下我想即便放假後無風無雨我想即便是這樣子我覺得大家應該也是要慶幸說沒有發生太多的災害所以我覺得並不應該怪罪地方的首長或是民眾雖然說現在大家這個所謂想放颱風假的意願可能也有別的原因所以我想對於防災就是應該不會說要太過小心那放假的民眾也不能說他們就是任性不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7135.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7163.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那最後一關有關這個颱風的問題其實去年中央氣象局改制升格為暑那組織法中也把氣候業務包含氣候變遷業務納入那我想這部分也是跨領域的包含環境、農業、交通等等的問題那其中我想局跟暑最大的差別是局是執行業務暑還可以擬定政策那去年在法規修訂的時候也有人提出說這個暑是不是應該要把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7164.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7193.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
氣象局應該要納入到環境部底下變成這個這樣子升格為屬請問部長怎麼看我想這樣調整會不會更名符其實這個委員因為這個很敏感我是氣象出身當環境部部長這個事情我是覺得可以讓大家來討論但是我們因為環境部有氣候變遷署我們比較做長期的他們是短期那短期可能是跟交通部的這個職長是比較相近的不過他們氣象人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7193.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7194.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
謝謝部長謝謝你的這個意見我想我大概也了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7223.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7246.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
總之也是一樣有關於氣候變遷等等的我想這個在跟環境部的業務也都有相關那這個的確是大家可以好好來討論的那再來就是我們垃圾山的問題回到今天討論垃圾山的問題那在今天環境部提供的報告裡面可以歸結出垃圾處理量能不足跟新增垃圾的太多應該是減少的兩個主要原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7251.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7266.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
若不從這兩個方面改善現在的垃圾山就只會越來越大也有人諷刺這是臺灣的新百月所以我也想請教部長其實也有媒體說最大問題是減少塑膠使用上也就是塑膠減塑的政策應該要更徹底的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7267.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7281.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
又或者是說有業者用產業原料的名義進口這個國外的垃圾進來加工再加工那是不是可以應該要跟經濟部討論一下限制這個國外的垃圾進口部長對此怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7282.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7307.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
國際垃圾是我們不會讓它進口到臺灣做SRF的所以這個請委員可以放心那至於說源頭減量這是最重要的工作其實我們環境部其實有編列這個我們有一個資源回收基金大概有80億其實就在做這個事情所以其實我們的源頭減量的預算比末端處理的還要多很多部長我想這裡用產業原料它不一定是做SRF吧它可能會進來加工成其他的東西會不會有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7308.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7326.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我必須跟委員報告,其實某方面齁,任何的東西都不應該把它變成垃圾啦。的確,例如說我舉例,台積電也要進口一些礦石細元,礦石進來,稀有礦土進來,把它變成晶圓,這樣做循環的一個處理啊。那你它也,你某方面在那個地方可能是垃圾啊,到這個地方變黃金啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7327.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7347.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以其實這個部分呢民眾關心的是不是有國際垃圾這個我們會努力的來監控也希望各位很多的民眾要是有疑慮的話都歡迎告訴我們有沒有這種進口垃圾的問題是那可不可以請部長之後把這個相關的資料和報告可以在一個月或兩個月內交給本席好不好那兩個月好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7350.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7365.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
檢索政策從這個源頭管理這個垃圾產生喔那部長有沒有發現其實每次這樣推廣的政策都會有民怨產生喔那實際上也會將這個店家產生無形的負擔那國外反而也有越來越用越多的情形喔顯見說檢索政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7366.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7385.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不是說檢縮政策不好或是不應該做而是有沒有更好或更便利的方式至於進口塑料進口的這種廢塑料的部分也要有所限制那畢竟其實經濟效應也有限但是對我們台灣的環境負擔是蠻大的那剛剛就是說這個部分要麻煩您盤點一下到時候再提供給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7386.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7414.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那部長今天簡報中有提到說112年戰制的裸露垃圾掩埋場共53場那累計84萬噸那至今年的8月為止已經降到49場72萬噸可是你們現在用的是所謂的這個掩埋覆土跟分泉打包的兩種方式處理這並不是完全的去化而且是而是將這個裸露垃圾做到暫時處置的基本要求而已那我想要請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7415.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7436.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
84萬噸的垃圾何時可以完全去化?是否為民國136年?因為我看到好像有人這樣的說法目前我們設定是3年等於是126年完全去化84萬噸變成是妥善處理完妥善處理就像我剛說的就是那兩種方式對但是我說這並非完全去化那你覺得84萬噸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7438.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7439.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
但是我就說那怎麼樣可以把這84萬噸都放到這個循環裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7456.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7479.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個要花一點時間我特別我的簡報最後面提到一個新的想法是說我們應該有一個好的資源循環園區能夠全循環的來做這個事情是這個部分等一下我想因為目前您這個有點像是政策方向很多具體規劃和細節應該都沒有還沒有正在我們有這個想法對目前是想法而已所以還有很多具體要爭取預算未來可能要再細節來問一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7481.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7503.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那我另外是想問說目前裸露的垃圾山還有很大的問題是火災嘛那我就是上網隨便查了一下其實大概某一個垃圾野埋場過去5年就發生71次火災那我想這個除了現在建制監控之外有沒有辦法在每個垃圾場設置這種移動式的水塔能夠快速撲滅垃圾山的火災 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7503.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7524.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
有報委員這個高風險的這個掩埋場其實都有這樣的這個措施不過我也跟委員報告其實我到很多國外的垃圾山掩埋場或是垃圾處理設備他們也都常常發生火災因為我們的民眾的回收包含我們的手機亂丟電池亂丟現在這種鋰電池都很容易造成火災這個我們還是要從源頭做起啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7525.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7544.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
對那我意思是說那現在還有更具體的處理的方法嗎目前說真的有時候民眾自己把自己丟到那邊我們去做分類這個成本會非常高我們還是要從民眾的呼籲在進行所以我剛剛意思是說所以你不是每一個垃圾你只是把分類說高風險的對高風險的那沒有不是高風險的呢會不會有可能會發生對 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7546.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7564.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我就是基本上有高風險的大概都有消防的這個設備那我們會逐步的有需要的我們就會來進行目前應該是沒有全面的都有裝沒有全面沒有全面對不過我們在這個未來3年會投入12億來處理這件事所以這件事情未來也會去執行好那這部分再拜託部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7566.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7587.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
最後我還是想要問,所以再重新回到剛剛的問題,因為你剛剛說3年內要解決垃圾事案問題,那我還是想要問說,所以依照部長的定義,其實好像就是目前的這兩種方案而已對不對?對對好,那你目前上任半年了,你自己評估有辦法達到這樣子的承諾嗎?可以,因為現在我們已經全面在發報在進行了,應該可以達到3年內可以達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7588.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7588.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
謝謝主席,我請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7618.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7622.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好請部長欸所有人招 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7623.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7651.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
部長你剛剛回答陳昭之還有陳新輝委員就說公家醫院的節能檢探是由經濟部負責我們分工啦分工啦財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院跟私人醫院由你負責對對對那你宣示的你說跟著你走就沒問題對對對你在這邊宣示一下對在這邊宣示一下我讓你用30秒宣示 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7652.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7680.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
就是說我們現在深度捷能正在規劃當中那我們有分百工百業那目前針對醫療的院所這個所謂公立醫院、部立醫院的那會由經濟部來做協助那我們所謂的私立醫院的話會由環境部這邊我們大概會找了exco團隊深度捷能會來幫助這種所謂的財團法人這種私立的民間的醫院來進行好那如果跟著你走就不會扣錢了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7681.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7682.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
剛剛從早上到現在我都常常聽你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7711.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7730.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那垃圾,風災的垃圾有人講到這個清潔員非常的辛苦,會很獎金那天花板是一萬塊,那各縣市有的發五千,六千是最少嘛那你為什麼不把那個天花板提到五萬或十萬呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7733.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7756.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
颱風來真的是很危險而且是蠻辛苦的所以像是萬丹 萬阿來 淹水淹到1.8米 將近2米那根本整個碰城 家具裝潑都拖拖拖 這就是當時那村長就跟相公所就槓起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7757.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7769.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那要另外收回這個第一個收回合不合理第二個如果地方在這邊學怕電環境部會不會主動介入這兩個問題我請署長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7777.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7788.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
是這樣子那個垃圾清雲原則上如果是家戶垃圾在鄉鎮市公所在清雲應該是沒有收費他這個個案到底怎麼回事我們再去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7789.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7817.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
因為那個時候我有幫忙處理就看到就在那邊對幹那我就想說這環境部隊就出手一下就很簡單啊所以了解一下跟我回報一下好我們來了解一下好不好那那個獎金啊獎金你剛剛沒有回答獎金你說天花板是一萬塊有些好的財務狀況好的縣市一萬塊啦那是你們發的還是縣市政府啊這個清潔隊員都是縣市政府那你給他訂天花板幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7818.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7841.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
人家要花五萬十萬有關你屁事啊市長這個是召集一個縣市一起來開會所做的一個決定以上報告我是覺得獎金去訂天花板沒有意義啦人家如果想發而且很辛苦那財務狀況要OK的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7844.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7866.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這關起床嘛這關起床因為新界隊員太辛苦了那來再請教部長我們上次小琉球那個小琉球的問題文化爐的問題還有有沒有碰到什麼問題另外一個所有的離島的垃圾都運回本島那這次颱風這樣會不會產生一些親印上的問題來 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7868.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7895.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
小琉球的問題是說我們因為它的建分化廠的話它的這個成本實在太高了所以我們還是用轉運的方式為本島的燃燒目前的其實小琉球其實我必須說也給那個他們鄉長做的也是很認真很不錯我們給予很大的一個肯定那未來我們還是會持續它進行這種轉運的工作不過其實小琉球其實未來或許有一些改變的方式例如說去旅遊也應該把垃圾自己帶回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7896.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7919.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
從源頭的減量每個人減量這種習慣開始做這是最有用的所以我們會努力啦因為小琉球那邊他們環保杯我看推的也還不錯啦對沒錯reuse嘛然後垃圾減量也要還是分類也要更落實啦那鄉長是蠻認真的我們要跟他加油鼓勵那其他外島這次颱風這樣垃圾運回來有沒有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7923.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7938.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
目前是沒有問題沒有問題那你補助地方政府機構的機具設備跟藥品那藥品是什麼東西啊例如說一些消毒消毒的燈閣熱門那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7946.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7975.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那個垃圾的裸露垃圾是屏東縣還是第二名的對那有沒有辦法來幫忙他們沒有問題來我們請署長來跟召委報告齁屏東縣我們有去跟他開過會也見過他的縣長齁那他這些裸露的垃圾他也是依照我們所規劃的三年的方式會把它做處理以上也是要在三年把它清除完畢對 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7978.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7987.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我們屏東縣的破帶稽查是排第9支援回收排第6這個要怎麼來幫忙他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7989.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8016.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這個其實因為需要這個各鄉政公所的清潔隊他們努力的從源頭都來做然後從焚化爐進場的時候收這個垃圾的時候也都要迫代來看所以這個要從好幾個關卡但是我也必須說要做到像彰化這麼好這個挑戰很大希望委員可以做大力的支持等於是鼓勵這個觀念因為他們垃圾就少了三分之一所以這是成效非常好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8017.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8018.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們請副署長不再提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8046.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8074.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那你們這個官網搞了那麼久結果每天上網觀看的人都不到100個人97個96個那你應該把他連到旅館去民宿業者去對不對讓他們強制他們看嘛因為在1月1號開始就不會供應啦這個是很嚴重的問題以後要去住宿都要自己帶東西所以這個是不是能夠趕快給他突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8075.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8088.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
委員這個其實我們那個有辦活動新聞也都很大我們有公開的宣示啦其實大家都知道啦但是這個要有決心做然後也要讓每個去住宿的人也都有這個提認因為我們到歐洲去這個都沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8090.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8112.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好最後一個問題我一定準時結束啦好的老師一定準時下課山陀河這個颱風造成屏東很厲害很厲害瞬間中風16級那整個國小的太陽能板都掉了亂七八糟這些太陽能板的回收部長有沒有什麼觀念有沒有什麼汙染 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8113.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8134.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
目前的狀況是沒有直接的污染但是我相信它如果到農田的時候還是會有些影響那目前我們是環境部是主管是說這個光電板的回收處理在利用所以這個我們是我們加強的但是會不會對環境衝擊我們在做評估因為這一次是第一次這麼大針對太陽光電板我們會密切注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8134.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8155.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
至於說對環境的破壞例如說會不會溫度過高環境的破壞其實我們現在有一些會議要求能源署能夠來做政策性的環評來評估這個事情因為大家對太陽能板很疑慮怎麼回收很疑慮所以找時間來到辦公室來大家討論討論好沒問題謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8170.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8175.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8805.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8819.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好,我們繼續開會。我們請王振旭委員執行。好,謝謝主席。那我們就麻煩馮部長。部長好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8826.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8836.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
辛苦了,我們利用假日還跑去基隆協助瞭解讓地造成的影響,非常感謝副部長那麼關心基隆受災的狀況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8837.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8857.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我想我們一開始還是針對於即使剛剛所有的委員都有請教你相關的問題那今天你在簡報也講得非常清楚有關於在未來如何針對於相關不管廢棄物源頭減量或者是循環經濟的部分都做了非常充分的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8858.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8881.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
一開始還是先請教一下剛剛我們這個召委書委員有提到碳費對於醫療產業的影響那這部分我們也知道這個期程都已經定得非常的清楚那那時候部長也有提到再往下我們會看到就是說您也正式剛剛也再一次的重申就是不會向醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8882.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8894.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
會員所徵收探會。這個是看起來是非常確定的事情不過整體來講醫療本身並不是只有醫療機構而已還會包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8896.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8901.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
報告委員其實我們現在對於醫療院所因為我們大概都有掌握它的用電量大概是多少所以其實我們未來會抓大放小針對這種大型 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8919.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8919.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
一致來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8944.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8965.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
進行盤點,這個不是攤盤查是幫你減電節能用ASCO的形式另外一個就是說我們會又動用民間的資金來進行但是我也跟委員報告公立醫院的部分比較難因為它預算編法的問題那私立的醫院可能會走得比較快所以我們民間的醫院會優先來做處理那這個是環境部來負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8966.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8995.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
是,那我們了解其實醫院都會接受醫院評鑑在評鑑的過程裡面未來這會不會是一個可以提供什麼樣的誘因或者是方式來讓我們的醫療院所針對這個檢探的部分節能的部分有一個加分或相關的議題讓醫院在遵循的時候更有誘因或者是有什麼樣的外力可以來協助我們醫療院所面對未來整體的這個檢探的需求再多 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9000.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9018.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
再過來就是有關於這個廢棄物源頭減量還有資源循環的部分我相信大家都已經聽了部長很多很多的相關的報告那很感謝部長也在上上禮拜五參出席的這個縱土的包場的活動現場我們可以看到包括我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9019.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9021.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
臺灣的土地真的需要大家共同來維護有健康的土地就有健康的國民當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9035.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9057.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
未來我們就在打造健康台灣就會奠定一個良好的基石其實這裡面廢棄物造成的土地污染真的是會讓我們很擔心那也很期待大家共同來維護台灣這塊美麗的土地那我們可以看下一張知道說未來在這個廢棄物的部分這幾年好像還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9058.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9081.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
實施的在增加當中那這個增加裡面我們也了解未來你有很大的目標就是要將一般的廢棄物佔存量可以在三年裡面讓它消失掉那因為再次提到就是焚化廠如果我們國民或者是人民對於焚化廠或者是整個整體反應的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9083.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9086.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這一部分可不可以再進一步說明? |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9108.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9130.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
報告委員因為這個我來之後知道政府預算的編列有一定的期程所以其實在明年的預算其實對於這塊還是跟過去是類似的但是我們的確我在爭取後年的預算裡面我們正在盤點當中那我希望有一個更積極的方式來進行所以我們正在進行當中所以希望後年有那其他的部分我們也會爭取這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9131.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9139.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我們希望用別的方式來解決這個循環經濟的問題因為循環經濟在台灣我們談了很多但是實際上有沒有做出成效我相信大家心裡都有數所以我們希望用別的方法能夠來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9151.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9168.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
是當然我們很期待這個總預算的這些審查能夠趕快的開始那我們可以看下一張有關於這個災後垃圾處理的部分那剛剛蘇慧雲也提到光電這些造成了影響環境的影響那我們想要了解的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9170.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9196.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
目前我們有一個辦法就是現有的大型文化場統一調度辦法裡面如果針對於這種垃圾在短時間裡面大量出現的話那如何透過地方政府跟中央這邊共同來處理我們很希望過去其實有類似的事件出現的話那有沒有類似的經驗可以提供這一次出現這麼大的影響之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9197.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9224.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
可以做參考的部分那我們去了解好像之前很少有這樣的經驗是地方政府覺得他們可以自行處理的非常完整不需要中央來協助調度或者是說有曾經類似的需求而沒有做適當的回應那我們所了解好像沒有這樣的案件那像這一次這麼大的這些風災造成影響部長這邊還有沒有其他可以因應的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9224.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9244.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
報告委員您剛才提到的問題就是說像之前那個調度權其實它不是一個常態目前為止其實過去南投有申請過但是南投其實它還有一些掩埋的空間所以我們沒有同意但是我們其實這個事情也要很小心因為我們也害怕說地方過度依賴中央來靠這樣來做調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9246.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9264.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們非常謹慎小心來做這個事情那目前我們大概都是透過績效考核跟補助的機制讓地方協調地方政府之間能夠來處理垃圾的問題所以現在大概是一年大概26到37萬噸在進行這樣的調度的工作我們是另外一個方式不是強制的去協調介入調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9265.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9280.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
是所以如果地方政府有需要的話那中央這邊就擇物旁貸會去做協調但是不是說我們呃直接行使這個調度權了解好謝謝那再過來一些呃我們看到的部分就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9281.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9307.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
很多委員都詢問過那我只請教一下針對於颱風以後這個登革熱的防治這邊環境部有沒有更積極的措施跟我們的衛福部這邊來做協助跟協調我們跟衛福部分工是我們是在環境的這個清理跟整潔所以目前因為例如說北部雙北的登革熱有第2期時期了所以我們會加強這個跟地方環保局加強這個清消的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9308.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9316.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
是 好 那我們期待大家共同努力 來減少這個災害以後造成的影響謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請楊耀委員質詢謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9337.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9355.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
姚委員好部長好部長我看你們的簡報就是臺灣因為從大概106年開始有24座焚化廠進入整改的過渡期每年大概有 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9357.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9383.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
有十幾萬噸的垃圾必須要進入垃圾掩埋場到了去年底呢裸露堆置量是84萬噸我先問一個前提是在掩埋場裡面的量還是掩埋場以外的地面的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9383.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9409.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
在掩埋場裡面的量所以這84萬噸就不包括像澎湖那一種紅蘿那一種直接在地面上的就是澎湖的也算進去澎湖的大概是可是那個在我在概念上我不覺得那個是在掩埋場裡面阿對他是在掩埋場的地面阿對那個紅蘿就是掩埋場所以他那個就是算我知道可是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9410.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9421.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們一般掩埋場是在地面下的才叫掩埋場嘛他是直接堆置在地面上的部長懂我的意思嗎有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9424.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9449.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
其實委員那個我看過很多的那個掩埋場其實很多也是這樣也有在平面的也有在山裡面的也都有各式各樣的都有那在概念上是不是應該這樣子區分就是假如在掩埋場裡面我不是說在場區裡面喔我是在真的掩埋場我們掩埋場的概念是在地底下的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9452.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9479.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
對不對,地面的不叫掩埋啊,叫堆置啊。署長說明沒關係?是是,謝謝委員,澎湖的紅蘿掩埋場,掩埋區它比較特殊,它...不是我現在不是只針對紅蘿來問啦,紅蘿那個就是我的概念是絕對不算是在掩埋場裡面啦,我現在是說台灣其他的垃圾堆置是多數是 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9479.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9503.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
你們現在所謂的因為我覺得裸露堆置的量是84萬噸這個到底多少是在地面下地面下的其實我的概念上也算是垃圾處理的一部分嘛所以我們概念上這個是垃圾處理的一部分嘛那假如說是在地面上的才叫裸露的堆置嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9505.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9534.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以這84萬噸是裸露堆置的就是裸露就是外界媒體說的垃圾山啦對啦就是沒有處理好的啦對啦啊處理好如果把它復土掩埋或是打包的那個就不叫垃圾山對啦對啦就是那表示情況還蠻嚴重的啦其實我們從立法院的預算中心的報告看得出來就臺灣其實現在垃圾掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9535.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9562.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
就地面下的容量其實已經快到上限了那其中有17處是已經完全飽和掩埋腹土措施目前這一些垃圾山以外我們到底還有多少垃圾掩埋場有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9566.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9592.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們現在其實野埋場大概107座如果我們算了一下大概有354萬立方公尺我們現在這個是用立方公尺來算不是用垃圾的實際重量的噸來看所以還有空間但是我們不希望再增加可是還有空間我們現在就是這84萬多我們也不能直接讓他進入野埋場因為你不保留一定的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9593.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9622.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
以後萬一緊急使用怎麼辦部長你懂我的意思嗎我知道我知道我其實今天這一段這一段跟部長討論的就是我們希望希望目前的垃圾山的處理盡可能的朝分選打包來做政策方向對不對對對目前是這樣還有一個就是把它復土先復土 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9623.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9638.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
就是地面復土那個還是必須要做第二次的處理不可能說地面下就是垃圾掩埋 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9639.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9639.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
目前目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9671.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9693.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好像就我們分析打包的最終目的是製成固體再生燃料對不對不一定不一定有的是這樣做阿有的是做像太空包這樣先放好就是暫時打包的不算就是說我們有一個政策是要把它做成 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9694.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9695.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那這個的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9710.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9729.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個的進度跟成果好嗎?目前有的縣市很積極在做啦有些縣市他覺得他的焚化爐就做魚魚用就可以了那有些縣市做什麼用就可以了燃燒就可以了燃燒就可以可是問題是現在不夠焚化廠的量能不夠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9729.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9753.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
其實我們報告委員因為我們前幾個禮拜有公布SRF的體檢報告啦那其實我們也都跟各縣市環保局有溝通其實他們大概都有這個需求也大概都體認SRF是一個必須要進行的方式但是他的管理不夠嚴格我們這個也都知道我們會加嚴的來處理對這個就是就是就是就我這邊看審計部的報告齁就是欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9757.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9762.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
分選打包以後的量有九成 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9764.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9787.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
有超過九成喔,超過九成並沒有製成SRF目前SRF大概佔所有的裡面大概一年大概30萬噸產量30萬噸,產量多少我不知道,我這邊的資料是審計報告因為我們垃圾量大概一年大概900多就是說能夠處理的其實大概不到一成啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9788.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9789.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以可能部裡面這邊對於SRF的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9799.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9828.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對環境衛生及公安的風險這個要做很仔細的評估然後要做政策的宣導因為我們有先做體檢然後年底會有一個管理辦法還有一些整個白皮書會出來因為SRF不應該說直接說它是燒垃圾它是一個支援的有效的再利用所以這個部分我們的確是往那個方向走但是我必須強調我並不是要鼓勵SRF但是這個是一個必要的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9832.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9855.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個我可能要部長說明一下為什麼我們的政策是要補助SRF可是你現在說SRF其實是說它是可以把轉廢為能的一種方法是一種方法然後因為它可以取代燃煤所以基本上如果它好的話是可以取代燃煤可以來做這樣的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9856.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9878.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以其實這個是可以做的但是我必須跟委員報告因為過去可能管理辦法很不好很出了一些狀況那我們也體認到體檢完了我們會走向正面的角度來看這個事情會更嚴格所以部長我就是讓你把話說清楚啦要不然會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9880.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9902.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
會有誤導就是說我們明明就是補助的地方政府要去做SRF然後現在部長說部長的意思就是說我們要精進SRF的各項程序生產製程生食用全部用最嚴格的標準來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9903.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9928.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那必須要這樣子講要不然部長假如只是單純的說說不是很支持那我們政策又這樣子走這個會有很大的衝突好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝梁委員謝謝部長在這邊宣告在黃秀芳委員花園完畢後我們處理臨時提案那接續我們請洪森漢委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9939.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9959.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
主席好 請環部長 嗨 環部長 翁委員早 部長好齁 部長你還記不記得我們7月的時候 那時候我們一起去萬華 那體驗這個 自收拾荒者 他的生活跟工作 你還記得嗎 對 記得 感受很深刻 部長這段時間在當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9962.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9989.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們到萬華體驗實荒後其實當然我要先謝謝部長跟這邊循環署的同仁其實在這段時間也花了很多心力在精進來協助實荒者的這個支收關懷計畫但在這裡我有幾個部分想要跟部長有一些提醒跟提問部長我想請問你知不知道現在全台灣有多少位實荒者大概一萬八千多列冊的但是我事實上還是更多比這個更多很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9991.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10007.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
目前列冊的數字是7500位不是1萬多列冊列冊的是7500位所以部長你也知道實際上面數字應該比這個多很多那部長你知不知道臺北市目前有多少位死亡者200多位 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10008.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10012.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
臺北市政府現在列冊只列冊兩位整個萬華就兩位拾荒者 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10035.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10043.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
部長你覺得這個數字精準嗎?完全不精準所以我們會來調查啦會來等於是說等於是在檢視這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10045.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10070.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
不然我在看各縣市的列冊裡面 譬如說台中市列了1400過去兩年甚至2000、1400那我們了解一下當然這是因為台中市過去其實還蠻積極在輔導這些實荒者所以讓實荒者很願意參與這個列冊所以各縣市的做法不同會造成列冊數字上面天差地遠的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10071.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10096.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那這就是現在我們看到一些現實尤其是像臺北市自收個體戶列車遇到的問題喔臺北市現在怎麼做呢臺北市只列這所謂的好寶寶拾荒者喔也就是你家戶門口都要很乾淨啦你才能被列上去那真正有需求有被幫助需求的拾荒者他可能因為資源不足或空間不足所以他可能環境髒亂在臺北市的邏輯裡面就沒有辦法被列車喔所以才會只有兩位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10097.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10116.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
整個萬華只有兩位可是部長你知不知道如果現在這些自收拾荒者沒有被列冊的話他就沒有辦法參與自收關懷計畫也就是我們在環境部跟我們的這個資源循環所花了很多力去嚴以精進的自收關懷計畫這個美意如果只要不列冊進來就沒辦法得到幫助啊部長你覺得這該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10121.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10137.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個我們會來檢討一下再跟委員報告好不好不然我覺得你應該積極的要來跟這些縣市政府因為我覺得到底他們是不想做還是沒有能力做我覺得要弄清楚如果我們的政策資源是規劃在列車作為前提的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10137.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10164.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那以他們現在這種態度就會變成是我們去幫助第一線死亡者的時候很大的阻礙這些縣市政府就變成阻礙我覺得部長環境部應該要積極跟這些縣市政府來做這些溝通可以嗎好可以就是怎麼讓列冊的數字更符合真實讓能夠需要幫助的人能夠得到幫助我覺得這是最重要的前提接下來我要跟部長也再討論一下關於支收支收行動回收行動支收站的問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10165.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10173.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
部長你知道我們現在資源循環署也規劃了所謂行動之收站你知道這個計畫它的脈絡跟原因為什麼會有這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10175.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10196.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為那時候大概從108年那時候就開始推動這個計畫啦齁但是而且其實那時候我知道說被趕來趕去所以才有這種行動的這個做法我跟你講其實一個很重要的原因是因為也是大概在兩年兩三年前萬華的光耀武金行的回收站當時在社會上面因為他因為台北市的土地法規的問題被迫關門 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10198.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10222.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以讓萬華大概有200多位的死亡者沒有地方可以去回收來維生這件事情也促使環境部推出了這個所謂行動之收站的計劃但是呢我們當我們的這個提出這個計劃以後中央提出計劃以後很多縣市拿了相關中央的預算跟補助來推動實際執行的狀況部長了不了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10223.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10247.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
報告委員 這個我還不了解好部長我跟你說有些縣市呢他會用這個縣市清潔隊來安排路線那沿街去收獵測拾荒者的回收物有些縣市他跟地方政府合作讓回收站的貨車到定點來讓拾荒者來收回收物然後再來補貼他的油錢我也要問部長你知道臺北市的行動支收站他怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10251.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10254.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
他搞了一台漂漂亮亮的小胖卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10255.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10284.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
然後說他只收集農藥空瓶啊收集嬰兒用品啊收集高壓容器啊然後他拿但他拿了環境部的拿環境部補助的錢啊但搞了一台這個東西啊你覺得這一台東西這是自收者他需要的嗎尤其是在台北市的土地法規上面讓很多的環回收站一一的都要消失以後回收自收這個我們的死亡者 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10284.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10301.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
找不到空間去回收站的時候結果你搞了這台東西這真的能夠符合需求嗎部長你看這個完全不行所以我會來檢討好不好所以我們看到這狀況第一個是說當然中央現在規劃了政策可是在地方的執行端一來他的死亡者沒有列冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10302.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10323.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
二來他說拿了中央的錢以後搞一個這樣看起來華而不實的虛晃一招的東西根本沒有辦法解決問題讓他地方的拾荒者一樣沒有回收站可以去做回收一樣得不到我們政府的幫助可是我們明明這個政策的規劃一開始的原意是因為臺北市的萬華回收場 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10326.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10342.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們希望環境部要積極地來跟各縣市來溝通我們這幾個政策要怎麼真的能夠在地方落實尤其是台北市現在看起來台北市資源最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10343.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10358.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
可是他做的狀況最華而不實最虛晃一招現在台北市我覺得部長要優先來跟台北市來做這部分的溝通包括要求他們提出改進的辦法這部長可以嗎可以沒問題我覺得這涉及到公正轉型的問題我知道部長很重視公正轉型的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10359.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10381.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
但如果我們在現在在推動資源循環推動氣候變遷在推動淨零的政策的時候沒有辦法顧到每一個可能會受害或者是會受到影響的人的話其實這可能我們相關淨零的工作循環的工作都會很難推進這部分部長我希望環境部可以再加強尤其是要要求縣市政府必須落實不能再搞剛剛臺北市這種做法好嗎好可以沒問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝洪委員謝謝部長那繼續請羅廷維委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10397.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10399.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請彭部長部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10404.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10433.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
委員好部長我想全國目前有多少列管的資源回收場你們都有列冊嗎有我想上網搜尋幾乎每個月都有大火比如10月2號淡水資源場附近表示居民都說這不是第一次2018年也燒過9月14土城鐵工廠兼資源回收場也大火那我想8月22號矽脂回收場也有造成大火還有一時的一個狀況4月24日彰化和美塑膠資源回收場也都有大火部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10434.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10460.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這些資源回收廠常失火到底是人為還是非人為?你們都有做後續的調查嗎?幫委員其實這件事情我在德國也看到類似的狀況他們非常先進怎麼失火的所以他們在外面還配有一個消防隊在做這個處理那最主要的原因就是說我們現在的民眾手邊有太多的電池鋰電池等等的設備所以其實一遇到擠壓爆裂的情況就很容易發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10461.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10485.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
好我想我們想要探討的是另外一個問題就是會不會燒出黛奧辛跟各種有毒金屬物的一些相關空污問題我想回收場的管理機制究竟是什麼我想就像你剛剛所提到的不管是離電池或者相關的問題到底能不能加強這方面的一個機制讓這個事件能夠再減少我還是要再次強調這些有毒物質呢揮發到空氣當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10486.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10504.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們可以用一個事件來跟大家分享像911事件美國支援這一場救災將近2518位消防員因此罹患癌症這不僅是醫療支出的一個重大問題更是國家人才巨大的一個受創我想這些火災現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10505.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10525.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10525.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10546.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
目前其實針對一些事件我們都有即時的這個監控車啦例如說掩埋場的大火大概都有監控例如說有沒有超標然後那有超標的話就會提醒民眾進行這個疏散所以的確我們有做這個工作我希望有追蹤就會有報告啦是不是會後能夠把這個報告送來委員會讓我們來參考一下再者資源回收場的大火 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10547.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10571.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
租住附近的一個居民他們的因應是什麼誰負責通知他們這個機制有沒有建立起來我想這個部分中央也有責任去統一我想如果空氣懸浮物質濃度越來越高我們目前都有對於學校醫院附近住戶這個部分是不是要來做一個疏散我想目前對空氣為福利值這樣子的一個超標本來學校就會做一個公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10572.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10586.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
可是因為像我自己選區也有啊學校旁邊就有回收場那未來這些回收場萬一發生問題了做及時的連結做及時的一個通報這個是不是有辦法做更加強深度的一個連結那監測誰要來負責誰要來負責通知這個部分你們有想過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10590.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10617.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
報告委員其實這個例如說新北市跟我們化學署其實針對一些例如說深坑大火這種發生的這個事情都有一個緊急的這個處理我們經過一些事件之後有逐漸檢討所以今年有幾個事件其實就處理的蠻好我們希望就是用這幾個事件來做加大的一個擴大然後讓各縣市都能夠去了解這個事件所衍生出來的問題大家一起相互檢討那再來我想跟部長討論喔垃圾裸露堆置的一個問題您有耳聞台中的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10618.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10639.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
有我去了這個臺中的大理你已經去看過大理了2024年6月24號就有新聞媒體就指出大理有30萬噸幾乎是飽和對於這樣的掩埋場的問題啊我想不只是大理臺中大理新竹新豐幾乎也都有這樣子的一個問題垃圾掩埋場甚至還有幾乎每年都有在燒的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10641.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10660.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
一月燒一次四月燒一次今年六月我想這個部分安利你有去看過嗎都有看過好我想不單單是新竹雲林南屏南投啊屏東啊桃園啊都有垃圾裸露堆置的一個問題我們是否能夠在你上任之後加強這個部分的一個部署甚至能夠來解決這些問題什麼時候才清的完大理這一場 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10661.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10680.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
大理第一個是其實報告委員大理整理得還不錯整理得還不錯啦我也要推薦大理這樣的狀況啦大理他有因為我們陽光的照射擔心可能會有過熱的一個狀況甚至用紅外線來監測對吧那是不是這樣的成功案例可以推廣到各縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10681.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10708.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們現在正在進行就是說高風險的會優先來處理好我們能夠複製成功案例當然我們很開心但是我還是要問大理這個狀況雖然他現在安置的還不錯因為我記得都有用太空包甚至有這樣紅外線去做一個監測但是垃圾要清還是我們最希望的因為大理我住在旁邊我們南區還有這附近都會因為這大理飄散的氣味還是有影響到什麼時候能夠幫我們解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10710.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10725.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
大理還要一段時間因為它的量很大啦那也要看焚化爐的這個運作的狀況然後還有一個SRF臺中的這個處理的狀況所以我目前其實臺中還要一段點時間但是我跟委員報告以全台灣來說的話大理算是經營得很不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10725.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10751.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好我希望既然是經營還不錯我們能不能加強補助或是加強這樣子的處理後續幫忙我們追蹤而不是因為我們處理的很好你是優秀的學生所以我不用管你就讓你放著然後就可以對峙很久這也不是我們希望樂見的啦所以是不是複製成功案例之後也要鼓勵這些成功案例讓我們能夠有更多的機會來把這個事情處理好這麻煩你關心台中好嗎好謝謝謝謝羅委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10754.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10780.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在林健喜委員他改書面質詢他改書面質詢接下來我們請洪文凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請環境部彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10784.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10810.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
委員早彭部長本期持續關心也是國人所重視的議題就是碳費的一個部分那說今天有可能省議委員會做出最終的一個確認是不是就是優惠費率的部分會做出一個建議的方案好那今天確定是最後一次嗎還會不會有可能會再延期我希望他因為其實希望他們有收斂不要再開了因為每次都開個四五個小時非常長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10810.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10826.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
是,因為每一次本來講是說今年上半年度就會把所有的一個費率的方案給確認嘛那但是現在也到今年的10月了嘛那如果說再下去的話我們到底什麼時候開徵以及什麼時候標準訂出遙遙無期我想這也不是我們政府所需要的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10827.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10850.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
所以今天沒有辦法確定是不是最後一次?有沒有信心?我當然有信心啊就是說其實我也透過很多的方式跟大眾還有業界溝通還有產業NGO環保溝通目前的這個共識是已經非常的足夠啦但是我相信各位委員看到這兩天的媒體兩邊還是有一段的這個蠻大的差距當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10851.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10867.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
因為最主要就是希望有大家都希望是讓台灣的環境越來越好啦我想這也是我們永續經營發展的主要方向跟目標那可是我們不能口惠實不至啊到現在來講是說碳費的自主減量優惠到底是可樂價還是礦泉水價 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10869.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10884.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
還是講不清?我們到最後會落在什麼樣的一個基準點?他們今天要討論我不能去干涉他們但是我必須最後的結果是由我簽字來發布的那你的預期會不會到最後討論出來之後不符合你的預期你不發布? |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10886.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10909.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我會尊重這個審議委員會的決定目前其實委員那個可樂價或是什麼水價其實部分因為其實整個管制之後像歐盟他都有一個比較優惠的這個費率會出來其實大家都差不多啦大家都差不多啦所以我們不要用那樣方式因為他企業如果要得到自主減量計畫得到那個優惠他要花更多錢欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10910.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10929.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
他要花更多成本嘛我們希望是說提供誘因嘛對我們提供這個比較優惠的費率是希望提供誘因讓企業自主管理減量減量之後他可以符合等於是說他先付出其他的成本企業成本來達到標準而藉此比較降低付出比較低的一個費率 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10929.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10956.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那如果說他不願意付出那樣的一個成本那他就要付比較高的費率嗎沒錯其實概念是這樣但是再怎麼樣你的那個價格還是要有一定的標準啊就美國這邊來講說他們的外部成本每增加一公噸的這樣的一個排碳的一個費用外部成本要五千七百多塊台幣報告委員這個其實齁如果我們現在要說碳捕捉碳封存那個成本都很貴的啦是所以我們這兩個是沒有辦法這樣做比擬的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10957.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10959.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們現在是2025年說希望能夠減排10%為一個目標你覺得有可能達到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10978.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10995.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那要不要修正還是我們現在10%目標要什麼時候可以達成我們目前其實在研議因為2025年的目標其實過去各位可以委員可以看到2022年的數字我們跟2005年只有減了1.8左右是其實是不夠這也是媒體大家都在講嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10996.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11021.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
就是說過去10多年來我們努力了那麼久但反而是背道而馳我們的火力發電更加的多能源政策很多的因素但重點在於是說2002年跟2005年比較1.8%那我們只剩1年多的時間我們說要減10%剛剛部長你也承認了很有難度那就代表說這樣的一個計畫這樣的一個目標是空中樓閣 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11023.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11029.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
2025年可以達到多少?這個我還不知道沒辦法沒辦法預期那10%什麼時候能夠達到?因為如果說我們連10%都講不出來什麼時候達到那我們2030、2040甚至2050淨零碳排 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11038.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11041.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
打得成嗎?火力發電或是藍媒算不算是這個排堂的大宗? |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11056.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11079.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
藍媒發電藍媒是這個燃氣比藍媒少了大概三分之一它是一個過渡型的能源本席在之前經濟委員會以及相關委員會也都有詢問過台電本席的選區跟我們龜山桃園地區這個鄰近的選區林口火力發電廠現在是藍媒發電三部機組火力全開每一次你隨時上台電官網的時候基本上都是90幾%的發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11081.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11106.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那我們問你既然藍莓是大宗也真的是跟現在世界趨勢背道而馳那什麼時候你退場機制民進黨政府有核電廠的退場機制那是你民進黨政府現在執政的一個政策方向雖然國際趨勢已經不是告訴你這樣子可是你們一直在一而再再而三有核電電廠的退場機制那我們現在要問的是那藍莓電廠的退場機制部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11108.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11130.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個是經濟部在規劃的啦那我看到他們是那您剛講了嘛你2025年10%你達不成達不到那你也講是說能源轉型是大家都要一起來做的那環境部現在在管的就是氣候變遷就是淨零碳排那你們也說了能源排碳這個燃煤發電是排碳大戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11131.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11156.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那不是應該要來去做討論嗎那你是不是應該也要要求說說那這樣子台電你的林口火力發電廠燃煤你要不要轉型還是你要退場我們的確是有給這個台電設定一些排蛋係數的規劃希望他們可以更積極來進行的確是有在進行但是但是你委員你說的什麼燃煤退場的部分我現在還沒有看到相關的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11157.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11186.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
是因為經濟部台電雙手一攤跟你講說2035以前我的林口火力發電廠還是一樣是藍莓阿他就是雙手一攤阿這才是問題的所在阿部長今天的問題在於是說你自己也承認了我們現在全部大家也都希望是往這樣子的一個減碳的一個方向但是你們民進黨政府不要說你們啦民進黨政府能源政策他就是跟世界趨勢背道而馳也跟我們現在的方向背道而馳嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11187.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11203.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那所以說你才會做得那麼辛苦啊說真的我都覺得你委屈了2025年10%答不到跳票是你的責任但是答不到之後那怎麼辦呢那還有如果2025年10%都答不到你說2030年那時候預計要幾%24加減1是25%答得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11209.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11226.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
現在目前我們正在規劃要大的轉型有機會到那個時候抱歉喔不知道您還有沒有在這個這個位置上啊那如果達不到大家雙手一攤現在那時候的政府是不是還是現在政府不知道大家雙手一攤那台灣還是台灣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11227.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11246.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
部長拜託我真的在這個官位上說實話說真話真的把一些還在裝睡的人叫醒這個是本席給我們專業至少認為說還有專業的部長一些呼籲跟期待好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請羅志強委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11260.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11260.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
主席有請部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11267.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11297.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
日前衛福部長邱太元爆料說賴清德總統為了臺灣醫療院所溫室氣體排放的問題打電話罵你那我在總質詢的時候提議邱部長跟您握手這個風波雖然化解但是臺灣醫療院所減碳的問題還是個嚴肅的問題所以我有些問題想要就教於部長首先我想請問部長目前臺灣醫療院所溫室氣體排放量大概目前佔比是多少百分比 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11300.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11325.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
4.6那請問跟世界平均值比起來高還是低呢?高0.2那現在政府有計劃向醫療院所徵收攤費嗎?沒有為什麼?因為第一個是說醫院是救人的而且醫院也不是像這種工業的排碳大戶這麼的大那工業的排碳大戶其實但是我也必須說委員像有些中大型的醫院它的排碳量不會亞於一個工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11326.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11344.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
因為他要用很這個一定的這個溫度還有這個負壓所以其實他的排炭量也是蠻多的但是沒有像工廠那麼的多我覺得部長講的很好是全球醫療院所很多都是排炭大戶的台灣也有很多醫療院所是排炭大戶但是因為醫療院所本身有救人的特性所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11345.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11345.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
對此事不滿意． |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11360.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11362.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我來整理一下我們的那個衛福部長的看法啦他是說醫療機構在處理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11381.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11382.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
你覺得這個主張有道理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11404.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11428.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
全世界目前也沒有什麼碳稅或碳費給醫療機構的例子所以這就是我要講的所以很顯然我們的衛福部對其他國家的狀況好像也沒有搞得非常清楚所以後來其實部長您原來對邱部長的意見您的回應本來是什麼你本來是說希望部分碳費能撥入醫療領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11430.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11459.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那你那時候回邱太元部長說那個碳費才一點點啦然後衛福部錢比我們多而且事實上你剛剛也講嘛其他國家其實沒有這個做法嘛對不對我是私底下跟邱部長說那你要證明你這個氣候變遷醫療的增加是因為氣候變遷影響的你證明給我看那當然這個證明是困難的嘛他當然無法證明啊他不要講無法證明他連其他國家所謂的不收碳費的或碳稅的醫療院所 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11460.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11478.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
結果還把碳稅跟碳費拿去補貼這個醫院的他都沒舉出例子來嗎他有舉出例子來嗎沒有嘛好所以呢這個但是顯然部長對這事不滿意才打電話給總統嗎但是總統對你的主張有買單了嗎你剛剛對我回答這有跟總統解釋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11478.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11504.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
報告委員其實我必須在這個地方還原澄清總統並沒有罵我他是提醒我說醫療機構我舉例蘇委員的這個醫院他經營得很好但我相信也很辛苦然後我們應該用別的資源然後用保險基金等等用ESCO的方式來幫助醫院這個忙這樣做叫我鼓勵我可以這樣做院長也知道所以我們一起就是做其實我不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11505.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11507.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以我就讓你還原那至少賴總統看起來也接受你的說法嘛是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11522.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11540.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
對那現在對於兩個部會你們現在有沒有比較折衷的做法是什麼我看了就是說環境部跟經濟部儘管會要導入保險基金嘛對不對幫助醫療院所進行節能減碳嘛所以換言之不是從碳費裡面去雲波啦對不對不是不是我最後來做個簡單的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11542.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11559.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
因為現在部長你要來開始要在研議這個開徵碳費 事實上當然被收的人都會痛啦 被收的人都會有很多的意見啦 所以壓力也很大 但是我覺得要秉持專業啦 事實上我也不認同說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11559.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11559.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11589.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11589.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
黃秀芳主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11606.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11627.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
王委員好部長好部長我們上禮拜我們委員會有排到彰化考察去看這個黑水盟那其實我覺得說我們以前都是只有看影片或者是照片那第一次能夠親自到現場去看親自去體驗我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11631.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11649.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
看到真的是還蠻驚訝的就是說這個黑水蒙它竟然可以將這個廚餘處理得真的是非常的棒那另外一個它還可以有那個污泥就是我們一些工業的那個污泥也可以透過這個黑水蒙來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11650.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11675.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那我想請教就是說未來有沒有可能就是說因為我們知道說工業的不論是電子或者是一些紙業所生產的那個算是廢渣也好或者是污泥那有沒有可能就是說環境部未來跟這些合作然後是朝向用這樣的一個生物的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11677.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11701.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
包括委員因為目前其實黑水蒙最好的還是廚藥的減量那廚藥的減量我們過去廚藥大概堆肥是比較多但是現在堆肥的使用量沒那麼的多那第二個就是養豬給豬吃然後用真煮的方式做處理那目前我必須說黑水蒙在使用在廚藥的使用量裡面比例大概不到2%那這個其實在國外的案例是應該可以更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11701.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11717.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以我們其實也在研議說如何讓這個黑水盟的產業能夠可以真的起來那我必須說他們經營的委員看到那家我也去看過那也非常的好但是還有一段這個瓶頸在那個地方那我們環境部會來想辦法能夠把這個產業能夠帶動起來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11719.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11744.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
如果覺得說這個他處理廚餘的部分還不錯的話其實我覺得應該可以透過環境部跟各個地方縣市政府這個環保局應該去慢慢去推動是不是可以透過這樣的方式來處理廚餘的部分要不然其實之前之前很多我們的這個家裡面的這個廚餘有的可能就直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11745.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11745.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
提供討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11763.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11792.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
黑水蒙除了可以這個減少廚餘而且他的所有的東西幾乎也可以當成肥料那他利用這個黑水蒙或者處理這個汙泥的這個部分他沒有進到這個肥料的部分然後他可能就是進到這個生殖材油的部分所以我覺得說這個好像也還不錯那他目前也有在試處理汙泥這個部分所以我希望就是說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11796.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11808.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我覺得這個也是非常應該也是這個重金屬含量或者是我覺得如果透過這樣的方式來處理的話也許會比現在的方式更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11809.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11811.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我個人是希望是說我們部內會來規劃一下把這個產業能夠動起來才可以解決我們各式各樣的問題我們會來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11827.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11854.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
好那謝謝部長另外彰化縣在7月份就是有關這個垃圾的部分是用破帶的方式那剛剛一開始的時候當然民眾會還蠻反彈的可是在經過這個幾個月時間彰化縣政府的環保局也覺得說這個成效還不錯就可以垃圾量可以減到兩成左右那這個回收就是民眾做的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11856.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11856.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
﹚立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11879.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11892.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
對於整個垃圾的處理我覺得不是一個很好的方式啦那尤其有很多的這個堆置場它又是在學校的周邊那也是在水源頭所以我希望說未來針對我們的這個垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11894.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11894.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11921.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11946.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們不希望說這些垃圾是逐年的在增加我們應該是要看到它這些垃圾是逐年在減少而且是分類要分得很好那我希望就是說部長是不是可以給我們一個期許就未來你在這幾年當中我不知道說在你任內好了在你任內你希望這些垃圾的這個堆置場你可以做到什麼樣的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11947.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11969.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
第一個是三年內把這個露天裸露的解決掉這個委員我一定會如期的完成定期的跟社會大眾報告這個數字全部都會公開讓大家能夠看得到的那第二個呢源頭減量齁我會找網購業者或是外送業者來道德勸說大家都有社會的責任他們能夠提供更環保的餐具或更環保的這個作為來做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11970.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11984.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
另外一個是我希望其實有一個全循環的經濟園區才可以幫台灣未來解決這個問題我們目前其實因為中央跟地方的權責其實卡得非常的緊我們希望未來能夠有一些突破才能夠解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11986.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12010.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
當然這個我們希望說能夠逐步去解決因為其實每個人每天生產的這個垃圾量其實有時候覺得還蠻驚人的有時候你在網路上購買東西它的包裝就是層層的包裝一個小樣的東西它可能用一個大盒子大箱子包裝然後裡面又用那個泡棉可能就又包起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12011.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12039.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以其實我覺得如果說就部長講的可以跟這些網購業者有一些共識那是不是可以把如果是比較小樣的東西它的包裝就不要包的這麼大我覺得應該可以朝著這個方向去做源頭減量那我想請教部長就是說我們過去一直在追蹤就是我們的這個資源循環促進法那預計什麼時候要送到立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12039.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12064.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
保委員因為我上任的時候的確也聽過這個法案的簡報但是我也看到裡面的一些問題跟盲點所以目前我們跟我們的團隊在討論是應該還是回到廢清法跟資源循環促進法兩法一邊是修正一邊是等於是兩個再重新再修正那這次我們比較不一樣是我有跟我們團隊說我們籌組了一個8加N的聯盟產業界一起來談不要我們環境部官方來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12064.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12066.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們希望明年可以送到 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12081.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12094.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
最後一個問題我想請教因為彰化在我的選區有兩個廠一個是廢棄物的堆置廠正在申請另外一個可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12096.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12102.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們希望說垃圾減量這個堆置的如果說我們可以從源頭減量的話那未來這樣子的因為這種都算是閒物設施你要設在任何一個地方民眾絕對不會同意而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12121.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12147.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
如果是又在水源頭如果是在水源頭的話所有的民眾都是抗議那我也希望就是說部長在你的任內我們也希望能夠看到這些垃圾焚化爐燒出的剩下一些底渣那這些底渣未來要怎麼現在有的是固化處理那像這樣子的話你又要找一個地方去掩埋我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12148.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12174.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這個好像也是對整個環境的一個二次傷害而且當地的民眾也非常的反彈所以我希望說針對這部分我也希望這個環境部這邊也要去正視如果說所有的東西都可以從源頭去減量的話那也許我們可以就不需要這麼多的這個掩埋場對那我希望說部長這一件事我也希望你能夠正視 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12174.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12185.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
好謝謝委員我們會來助議謝謝好謝謝方委員謝謝部長現在我們處理臨時提案總共有三案請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12186.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12214.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
第一案此次山陀额颱風夾帶大量風雨造成淹水導致大量家具受損和垃圾清運受颱風破壞的大型垃圾卻要付費這反映了在天災垃圾清運費用的政策上存在灰色地帶委員要求環境部在一個月內研擬相關措施提交立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員蘇清泉陳昭芝盧先一第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12214.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12240.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
有鑒於土壤及地下水污染整治法自99年初全文修正後迄今未有再進行任何之條文修正考量該法內容中共計16條法則之規範經過近15年時間變遷及物價變化下應在有適度之修正增加原要求環境部應啟動修法研議作業現其於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12241.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12263.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一圖全集第三案有鑒於環境部宣誓將推動氣候科技循環園區藉以落實國內廢棄物問題徹底解決之目的然而具體在園區建立自主循環能力建立小型區域集中處理中心協助最適可行循環技術發展前處理設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12267.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12287.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
創試驗計畫試驗場址及全循環園區等五大措施上．擁有作業期程．費用規劃．用地選址及法治作業等事項．因揭露不明而應有檢討之空間．原要求環境部限期於二周內．向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告．提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一圖全集宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12293.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12307.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
第一案我們建議後面倒數第三行在一個月改成一個月內瞭解情形提交書面報告以上一個月內瞭解情形提交書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12321.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12350.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
請問各位有沒有意見,現在這件事情有什麼?要瞭解?要處理了?其實有溝通過,那個是有那個他們現在是有處理了市長你一個月要研擬相關措施,他要把相關措施拿掉,他要瞭解情形,就一個月改兩個禮拜就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12351.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12356.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
第二案第二案沒有意見第二案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12379.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12380.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
提交書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12398.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12400.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
第三案就修正通過接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12434.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12453.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好,謝謝主席。有請部長。部長請。主委好。部長好。先請教部長,這個垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策,這一本。這報告你有特別的double check過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12455.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12456.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
目前全台裸露暫置垃圾掩埋場共53場 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12478.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12505.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
累計80萬公噸分別集中在新竹、屏東、南投、雲林、桃園等縣市那環境部目前這個應急措施就是未來3年內中央會投入12億補助地方政府將裸露垃圾複土來做掩埋及分選打包然後並訂定裸露垃圾掩埋場分園完成84萬噸的妥善處理目標沒有錯吧?沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12508.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12526.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
同時你還寄望在今年年底新竹縣的焚化廠會完工以及116年台南市晨曦焚化廠更新這個焚化爐要完工來運轉然後藉此在這個全國有29場的總處理量能可以達到700萬噸的這樣的一個目標對有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12533.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12556.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
但是你這個規劃上顯然是是有問題的不然你看一下台灣現在在垃圾處理上還是以文化為主對不對沒錯我這邊有個資料部長你可以詳細閱讀一下111年這個是你們不提供給我的家屋垃圾也就是一般的廢棄物全國共產出在111年度的時候是469萬噸然後對於國內 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12561.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12568.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個公有的焚化爐每年可以處理650萬噸這數字應該都沒有錯嘛然後上面應該還有181萬的這個餘裕181萬噸的餘裕嘛同樣這個焚化爐你的事業會期物的處理量是97萬噸也應該沒有錯嘛因為這個數字是你們提供給我除了你們提供有錯誤嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12585.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12587.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
問題來了在114年燒完當年這個家屋垃圾及4月廢棄物後應該還有80萬噸的空間這空間跑去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12599.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12624.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
上面講的你的報告中指出累計裸露戰刺53場累計已經80萬公噸如果對照111年你們剛好又是有一個處理到一般交惡社事業費期物等等等而且你們事業費期物還有在持續的要求要減量嘛齁那你們還有一個80萬噸的空間這80萬噸的空間跑去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12627.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12634.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我沒有寫出來啦,你們自己算嘛650扣469扣97啊就84萬噸啊報告委員,這個97萬噸的這個數字因為我們是統計是180萬噸事業廢棄物事業廢棄物的部分是180萬噸這是你們網路的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12657.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12658.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那我到底要參考哪個數據? |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12685.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12702.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我現在沒有問你們有沒有180你們知道網路是97嗎?你現在可以馬上上網就可以看了啊你們自己的資料是97萬噸啊所以我才會這麼跟你算出來說你還有84萬的84萬噸的這個餘量啊跑去哪裡啊我們請我們負責的你們就要數據釐清就再跟部長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12711.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12727.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
110年度的數據,台灣每年加護垃圾量平均就是在450萬噸左右嘛,對不對?然後事業會幾乎是在你們環境部的努力之下喔每年的這個申報的數據也都在減少那如果說180萬噸是沒有減少的是在增加喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12735.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12754.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
公告在上面的是屬於列管事業有97萬噸那有一些事業他沒有列管的他也會進文化場這兩個加起來是180萬噸有列管的97沒有列管的又有將近快83萬噸是這樣那為什麼你們網路部把這個東西標示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12760.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12787.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我回去會跟循環署這邊講還是你這83有什麼網路的部分我們把他你們這就有問題啊你83是怎麼處理一樣是你列管你列管你願意標示出來你沒有列管的你就不把他標示出來可以上下其手原本齁原本環境部以前環保署在補助部長應該很清楚嘛當時我們在補助這些魂化爐的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12787.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12791.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
裸露堆置及災後垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12817.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12842.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我就覺得這問題又更大了啦其實魂化爐部長應該要應該有徹底去了解吧有有他的問題真的實在是非常非常的多啦哪一個地方政府執政這個魂化爐是整個他在控管反而不是你環境部不是對但是法律給你們之後應該甚至於你所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12844.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12867.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
116年度的台南市的城西混化廠的更新胡鬧爐這個錢的補助也是來自中央啊?難道是地方政府自酬嗎?沒有走促餐但是之前的胡鬧爐更新的費用110%是來自環境部啊沒有走促餐的除此之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12869.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12892.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
應該都是來自環境部啊?以前環保署啊?也沒有,它原先更新的部分也都是會走促餐促餐去更新,譬如說OT或者是其他的方式去做不走促餐不走OT,那更新葫蘆的費用來自哪裡?那就是廠商會有商業條件跟縣政府去談,這樣子環保署從頭到尾沒有編列預算補助過更新葫蘆爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12894.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12916.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
有一些規劃或者是前期的作業我們會補助一些錢但是規劃完畢之後那個部分就是規劃及前期的作業有其他的更新混濁化土的費用環保署完全沒有編列過任何一筆預算你那時候應該還沒有在這個位置吧如果還沒有在這個位置可能就小心這樣亂打會出問題我們可以調出來看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12919.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12936.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
現在是剛好預算還躺著整個審預算的時候我們就可以好好來討論環保署一年編了多少個預算來更新這些葷臘爐環保署是大頭捏你們怎麼會不清楚這個事情哪有規劃費用而已哪有走促餐而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12939.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12954.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我要跟部長講說你看吼今天這個環境部的報告是說我們是計畫在116年度的時候混化量要達700萬噸嘛對不對好我覺得我覺得如果今天吼我們到現在還垃圾燒不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12955.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12974.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我們國家變了這麼多的預算不管成了你所講的秋餐啦不管還是怎樣的情況之下環保署扮演的多重要的一個堅強的角色但是垃圾到現在還處理不完燒不完啦齁甚至於你看你還累計80萬公噸然後不是打包啊就是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12976.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13001.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
繼續做這個SRF對不對那SRF在前部長宣布的時候我特別在委員會要求要整個盤整嘛我知道我知道裡面有動起來啦不合格規定的就打掉這個我肯定啦齁但是到現在全國應該只有18場不合格規定打掉幾場我們製造的有48場使用的有18場然後製造的部分的話大概有十幾場已經有轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13003.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13024.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
有轉型?有轉什麼樣型?有的就沒有做了,有的就是它不是SRF了。對啦,是沒有做了還是轉型?有的沒有做了,有的就是不是SRF了,就不是認定SRF了。你在這邊我們SRF就主要是轉匯為冷嘛對不對?那你看喔,省經部給你一個報告是說環境部在2017年到2023年花費6億 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13028.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13055.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
9千多萬將近7億也是要補助這幾個縣市臺中臺南宜蘭雲林南投屏東花園臺東澎湖九縣市跟剛剛我講的這幾個全台裸露戰爭的垃圾場重疊最起碼一半以上然後設置15套垃圾的分選打包這樣的一個設施報告中還指出打包後的垃圾下一步應該就是製成SRF轉匯維能但是9成的打包垃圾沒有製成SRF |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13056.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13064.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那你如果打包之後還是要拿到胡鬧裡去燒那等於你就是把漆就是拿到胡鬧裡去把它燒掉啊這事情部長知道吧知道知道對啊怎麼會這樣我剛剛還肯定你們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13080.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13097.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
對SRF長的這樣的一個嚴厲的一個報告委員現在SRF的量能大概只有一年多就有30萬噸跟這個實際上的這麼的大量還是有很大的落差那所以其實我們體檢完之後我希望年底有一個白皮書能夠有一個比較好清楚的政策因為SRF在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13098.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13117.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
其實我必須說我們大概有兩成多的企業已經退出了所以其實它本身反而是沒有那麼合格的我們希望有好的合格重新再整軍再往前走啦不然的話當時這樣的制度我沒有參與在裡面但是我覺得當時急推SRF的確是對台灣而言管理不善是一個災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13120.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13136.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
在你還未就任之前我就有跟前部長講說SRF全國SRF要盤整一次我們盤整完了這個資料我們委員會還是本席也都沒有相關的資料我們這兩天會提供好不好給委員會我們來參考這第一啦那第二 審計部提出這樣的問題這確實是問題存在嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13139.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13149.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
第3個SIF陳副部長所講的一年可以處理到30萬噸的量能現在嘛對不對你現在堆置的喔全台53場你們的累計是80萬噸喔你有九成沒有打包喔九成沒有處理喔九成打包之後沒有製成SIF喔這一來一往我不曉得你們怎麼處理這個事情我覺得這到底有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13168.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13192.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
你寧願84萬噸在那邊暫時裸露然後你政府在邊綠山區去補助然後你一年可以處理30萬噸的SRF那如果這樣84萬噸增加我們先不談嘛你等於是兩年半你就可以全部都處理掉了啊當然沒有這麼講得這麼容易啦齁沒有兩年半即便三年也可以打掉啊你也不是說回過頭來來寄望116年這兩個胡鬧魯的啟用啊照你講的數據嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13198.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13211.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這是顯然有問題啊不過這個垃圾不是直接來做SRF,SRF有它的定義我當然知道啊,怎麼有可能垃圾直接做SRF我不知道當時這個定義是說要九成來做SRF的理由是什麼這個我再瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13213.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13213.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好,謝謝劉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13242.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13244.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
謝謝主席麻煩請一下彭部長彭部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13269.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13284.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那等一下有提到的單位自己今天就自己主動上來部長好那我想先看一下剛剛劉委員關心了就是說這個報告的部分是交出來你們都要檢查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13285.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13307.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我先請教就是在你們的報告的第一頁前言的部分倒數第二行有特別提到就是說裸露佔置垃圾之掩埋場共53場那我想請教哪些是在現有的107座的掩埋場裡面哪些是在堆置場全部都是我們107座裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13310.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13332.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
全部都在107座裡面,所以它全部都是合法的,暫時裸露的都是合法的?都合法的,對。所以你這個是什麼東西?這個也都合法的。這個是合法的?對。好,堆成這樣,那我們再繼續看齁。好,那你們也可以再回去看一下你們的函式,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13334.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13348.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那個好那首先我關心一下就是說這個112年底有53座的這個垃圾裸埋場那在這個8個月的時候呢你們就是有減對不起8 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13350.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13370.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
在8個月的時候您減少了49 49座但我想要請教如果減少的原因是推動或者是執行什麼樣的措施然後就可以在短短的8個月的時間裡面減少4座的這個裸露堆置的狀態報告委員這個大概第一個是復土然後第二個是打包這兩個方式就不要讓它露天裸露 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13371.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13391.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好所以那想請問一下就是你們復土主要的功能是第一個它不是屬於永久的就把它埋掉了是因為未來如果量能夠的話或是有SRF好的技術的話它還是可以拿來做分類的所以等於是暫時的把它這個掩埋復土所以你們就是在視覺上先做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13392.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13410.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
對先處理先處理那但是因為你復土之後那請問就是說就是說這個裸露堆置因為不是只有這個環境衛生部家會引起附近民眾的反感嘛他們一定很不滿那因為這個包括了就是惡臭地下水污染還有蚊蟲滋生還有輕運這個交通的這個時間交通的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13413.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13428.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那有時候呢就是也要伴隨需要就是說提供這個地方補償回饋金這些等等的問題那我不知道說你們這裡減少的試作是哪試作剛剛我講的那些問題都已經解決了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13428.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13443.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
報告委員其實這個第一個如果要掩埋腹土他的這個汙水的處理一定要做到完全徹底都一定得一個規範那如果掩埋腹土之後因為他很厚所以他基本上的就不會有這種惡臭的情況產生所以這個這個基本上很厚就不會有惡臭 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13444.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13470.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
對阿他還要把他再包起來所以基本上就很像說我們現在我們有時候到內湖那個焚化廠的旁邊有一座山那個其實裡面也都是所以我剛剛提的二臭地下水蚊蟲滋生還有青雲這些通通都沒有問題都要做這個都是標準的但是你們現在復土之後都沒有這些問題他要復土之前都要先把它蓋住對啦你就跟我說現在完全都沒有這些問題就好了因為你都做好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13472.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13485.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
就是那四座,四座也蠻長的對啊,就是都沒有問題了嘛就復土起來就都沒有問題了暫時沒有問題啦暫時好,那我想就是說你剛剛講說垃圾都焚燒之後會去焚燒嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13490.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13517.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
還是它就是變成這個因為你們暫時堆置雖然是暫時的齁但是因為我不知道你們這個數學怎麼算因為你如果說減少了堆置場那等於就是多了掩埋場的意思啊這個都是在掩埋場裡面啦對啦因為你就覆蓋了覆蓋不就埋起來了嗎對就是另類的掩埋場它其實本來就是掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13518.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13529.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
但是他我講的是堆置的部分對他堆置就是有一個是露天裸露堆在那個地方但是我們把它復起來然後他也不會造成環境景觀上的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13530.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13549.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
未來他跟那個最終處置的這種所謂的像例如說內務分很多的這個這個垃圾山這這樣處理是不一樣的我們時間的關係我們先往下去討論然後那這個就是說好因為我們看一下這個天下雜誌在今年9月4號出刊裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13550.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13570.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
第102頁的這個就是我們的環關署的嚴署長有特別講就是不裸露就是妥善處理那你有特別講說這個是國際間接受的處理方式那本席想要請教就是說請問包含了哪些國家你講的這個國際間就包含了哪些國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13573.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13591.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們一般的垃圾處理有兩大主流一個是焚化一個是掩埋當然還有其他的例如說氣化等等我的問題沒有很複雜我只問說有哪些國家有接受這樣的方式比如說美國澳洲目前都還是使以掩埋為主的 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13593.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13611.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
主要大國那哪些先進的國家你說哪些是你剛除了講澳洲那還有哪些先進的大國有這樣處理應該連日本也有那你講到大國德國算大國吧德國也有德國也這樣子處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13617.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13629.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為我這樣主要是因為我查了一下德國的部分他們在2005年6月的時候開始他們就不允許這個未經處理的廢棄物就進入掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13634.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13649.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我國是根據公有廢棄物掩埋管理規範也就是從2007年1月1日開始我們也跟進所以大家可以看一下簡報所以這個是國際的做法還是國際的笑話還是說這個有公然違法的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13658.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13664.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
因為我們有查詢到德國在2005年6月開始不允許未經處理的廢棄物進入掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13666.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13669.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我想我們查詢到的資料是這樣所以你說國際間都接受那我就不太清楚因為我們看到的這個文獻資料是這個樣子就提供給你們參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13691.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13694.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
目前他應該是說在現有的合法掩埋場裡面他進去應該做戶土或打包 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13713.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13732.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
但是他沒有做這件事情所以我們要求他依照標準的掩埋或處理的方式做處理所以就地方政府他們的問題嘛你的意思是這樣地方政府他管理的掩埋場垃圾也是地方政府地方政府誰管 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13733.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13748.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們督導的部分就是要求你們誰管誰監督就我們監督啊所以大家都有責任嘛我也沒有說但我不會講說是地方政府的責任嘛我現在的說連我都有責任我都講進去我就不會講地方政府啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13750.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13779.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
好了我這樣講給你參考不要講地方政府好嗎你們也有責任齁那 那個目前齁就是已經有107座的野賣場嘛那還有354萬立方空間我想要釐清一下因為立方空間的公式是什麼長城因為我們就學過長城寬城高立方空間就是一米一米那它其實大概乘以0.7大概就是多少噸的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13780.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13806.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
你的意思是說這個是立方公尺嗎?公尺,我們現在有公尺,因為垃圾它的比重好,所以空間是還要乘上比重的意思?對對對,如果量來說的話那因為這個之前在其他地方還沒有看過那他們足夠容納72萬噸的裸露的垃圾嗎?可以那這些裸露堆置的垃圾有沒有可能說交由掩埋場來做衛生掩埋? |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13809.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13831.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
現在就是現在就是現在就是交給他們做衛生掩埋對好就是直接包起來打包打包處理然後就埋進去打包之後就沒有埋或是說直接他的這個這個垃圾直接用附土埋掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13833.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13841.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好,不是埋進去,是把它蓋起來?蓋起來,今天蓋起來。喔,那沒工啦。對,對,對。喔,這就是土高,下面這就是電管,埋起來看不見。對。好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13843.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13868.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
好那到底這樣埋可能在法規上吼那個還是還是要看一下吼那目前49座的這個裸露裸露的場地吼他們對於這個地方的影響吼是難道都是一樣的嗎然後有沒有特別復雜困難處理的地的這些場址那你們環境部有沒有就是應對的措施啊然後希望什麼時候讓49座的這個裸露場址吼全部東東消失 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13869.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13897.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我希望三年內可以解決這個問題啦但是這個只是說我必須說這是暫時自己啦所以三年內還是就是應該是在部長您的任內嗎我希望我可以做到那個時候那嚴署長是會在您的任內嗎完成你應該會待得比部長還久吧你是事務官對不對我跟他一起退休我們一定會完成完成做完再走吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13898.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13923.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我會努力我會努力我們也會跟總統講一下做完再走我會努力包委員這個齁要處理這個是專案跟地方啦所以我們的確一個縣市一個縣市跟環保局一起來去抓啦剛剛我就一直聽到嚴署長講說是地方政府管的然後旁邊那個還點頭這樣子啊趕快把責任攬到我們這邊來我們都通力合作啦因為我都是找縣市首長跟環保局來一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13924.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13941.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
台灣在你們任內台灣還會不會有新的新增加的垃圾裸露的場域 不會 不會吼 不會 嚴書長會不會在你的任內 不會 那你會做多久 全國人多給我們指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13942.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13961.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
好,你不要說不會,啊只有半年你就沒在這裡,這樣賣什麼?賣啦賣啦賣啦好,那如果不會增加齁,我們比較關心說那奇怪過去為什麼有這麼多裸露的場址那你們升格之後到底法令有什麼樣有效的法令齁跟這個政策工具來禁止全部把它覆土蓋起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13962.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13984.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
其實我也要感謝大家社會的這個壓力我是覺得這個都是一個正面的循環那我們也認真的去面對這個事情所以我就覺得這個法令從源頭的減量整個很好的循環的體系的建立這才是必要的我必須作為這個我們自己我如果我可以解決我就解決這個都要靠地方中央地方一起合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13985.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14012.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我現在因為我那個召委站起來我有點緊張因為我第一次遇到他擔任召委然後我質詢這樣子我們通常那個我自己當召委的時候我都會再多給一點時間好謝謝然後我快問完了我快問完了那我們現有的這個裸露場地你們投入很多的監控設備那甚至用了這個AI的技術那好像這個AI技術這個監控好像在監控我們的防空飛彈一樣喔那 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14014.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14034.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我要請教說你垃圾裸露了那因為不會因為這些監控然後就不裸露那也不會因為監控然後這些這些就消失不見了所以我們監控的意義在哪裡是因為怕人家偷盜還是說還怕火災環境風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14036.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14052.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
報告委員這個掌握垃圾量我們未來齁會把這個每一個這個每一個縣市每一個點全部都公開讓大家知道他他處理的多少所以你們這樣就有能力管理了希望希望就是說這個不然的話我數據都是半年來一次好我們就不要再推到地方啦那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14054.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14076.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
一定要看一下部長英姿煥發的姿勢你去視察了各地方的垃圾處理場還有補助焚化爐的維修跟興建那我們也深刻感覺到就是說這個環境部對比過去的環保署好像真的對於這個焚化爐的政策已經有所不同了 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14076.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14097.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以過去我也曾經質詢那希望說環保署可以正面看待焚化爐設施進步性跟這個邊際效應的問題那我想我很肯定部長有這樣新的思維那鼓勵說用焚化爐來解決垃圾的問題那但是雖然我們台灣沒有因為燒紙的話就垃圾變得比較少但是說環境部至少我們現在應該要努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14097.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14113.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14114.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14114.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
謝謝主席 有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14143.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14144.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
部長請部長您好在南投縣新義鄉他們原本要做一個垃圾轉運站環保園區但是在2021年開始他們因為在他們的明德村的門口 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14165.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14165.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14182.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14204.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我3月去做了一個現刊的協調會議我在這邊是要跟您說在環保署升格為環境部的這一段時間很謝謝當時與會的一位環保署的長官他很有擔當他就當場說6個月一定全部清雨萬壁 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14205.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14218.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那我要跟您說他確實見急屢急在10月垃圾全部清運完畢那這個部分其實是我是要代替明德村的村民要特別他們托我說要謝謝就讓您知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14220.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14223.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那另外就是在今年臺東蘭嶼我也是一樣接到相公所跟我澄清我要跟您說 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14242.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14258.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
蘭嶼這幾年觀光非常的興盛垃圾越來越多其實在地的居民也一直跟我講非常的擔憂他們的垃圾運不出去在7月的時候糟糕了就有垃圾事件發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14259.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14274.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
您知道我從4月7月4號的晚間接到通報就一直協助他們一直到7月9號的晚間那我怎麼辦呢當時你要知道他是倒其實你要叫消防署我也跟署長聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14275.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14276.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14292.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14321.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
大家怨聲載道阿那六天空汙好可怕又難聞整個島都是煙霧瀰漫非常的可怕那我其實要講的是說我們最近阿像這個在梨山垃圾瀑布經常時有所聞垃圾瀑布在燒特別是在年節更容易燒你看他都還在本島欸在我們還要十天欸所以那個蘭嶼能夠燒個五六天完畢不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14321.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14350.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那而且我知道的是當年林佳龍市長他為了這個問題因為我們原住民地區所住的地方都不是在台縣所以當時林佳龍市長有補助公所500萬去做清運的費用讓他們可以送出去好那我其實只是想要問部長您說像這種山林島嶼成堆的垃圾山垃圾瀑布他焚燒之後衍生的這個空污問題我不曉得說因為我們都只有解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14351.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14354.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那個災害消滅就好但是空污的問題怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14355.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14382.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
報告委員第一個是蘭嶼或是蘭嶼的問題我們希望未來可以有一個遮棚在這個室內來舉行這個問題就會比較少那至於說這個造成這個空汙或空氣汙染例如說它燃燒那燃燒一定會有短暫的空汙那其實我們環境部大概都會跟地方環保局有一些監測車去監控而且提醒這個民眾當這個淹到哪裡的時候要進行什麼樣的這個庇護的措施我們是有在進行好 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14387.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14400.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那我其實要講的就是延續就是這個垃圾瀑布這不是新的名詞捏其實五六十年前整個原住民部落都是垃圾瀑布然後一下雨呢就跟著那個山溝垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14401.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14401.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
獲得最新報告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14417.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14432.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那我知道的呢像經濟部水利署的北水特分署因為他們那個地方是翡翠水庫供應大台北的水源所以即便那邊的露營場都是違法的可是北水特分署呢他還是能夠自己編錢給區公所 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14435.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14458.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
去做一些承包的工作去處理這些污水他們設置的這個淨水槽呢叫那些露營區他只要負擔他們自己接管到廁所洗手台的接管費那我要講的是說其實我覺得環境部你們應該你們雖然是開罰的單位但是你們應該要跟這一些目的事業主管機關要主動積極坐下來談因為畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14462.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14482.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
最重要的就是我們土壤水源空氣的一個維護那我希望環境部這個地方能夠更努力那最後一個小小的我只是要講的是說垃圾越來越多以我自己的馬家鄉這個都是我每天收的簡訊你看他們都跟我抱怨什麼回到前一張他們都跟我抱怨說隊員回去換車 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14486.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14495.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
然後請村民等待等候通知這是我自己部落自己鄉的簡訊我每天都在看每天都在換車有時候的那個像我們的那個叫什麼現在的廚餘很快就滿了他們就說要回去好重點來了我問鄉公所說要不要幫你們叫那個要不要申請車他們也不要為什麼負擔不起啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14511.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14535.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以我覺得這個很多的問題我們要去了解因為追根究底就是原鄉垃圾侵運的量能不足那我知道現在我們有一個補助地方政府換購地攤垃圾車也有提到這一些原鄉地區會因為垃圾車輛不足然後怎麼樣怎麼樣可以提出相關佐證等等等那我只是希望就是讓部長您了解我們部落的巷弄狹窄這個是我的部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14540.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14561.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
議員． |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14561.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14562.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
繼續請邱若驊委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14595.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14597.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
謝謝主席 主席請我們環境部彭部長請問這次風災過後對後續可能會引發登革熱的問題 貴部在政策上有什麼作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14616.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14635.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
整個燈格熱是尋到刷青啦齁那這個我們會加強這個宣導的力道那另外一個雙北這次是一個主要的新的熱區所以我們會跟地方環保單位一起來做一些熱區的這個清消的工作那南部來說的話會持續的加大的來辦理那個過去我們跟衛福部有一個相互配合的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14635.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14638.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
請問部長燈格熱防治跟清除積水容器還有化學朋友哪一個應該優先? |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14656.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14676.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
應該是這個優先然後最後才是化學噴藥但是其實這個齁我到過這個南部幾個縣市有幾個做得好的話都是主動稽查的部隊因為有些的這個空地或是民眾不知道他就會有些積的積水的這個發生他們會有些人去做檢查這個加大離島檢查這個才是最好的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14684.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14703.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
民眾是否真的會動手清除積水的容器還有隱藏性的滋生原積水容器是否清除那實際成效是另外一回事那第二在防治在防疫政策需要噴藥的時候民眾是否對其有充分的瞭解我們環境部有去了解嗎民眾是否瞭解噴藥是什麼樣的用藥嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14707.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14712.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
委員會特別提到像是去年在登革熱疫情的時候第一線人員噴藥跟民眾發生衝突的新聞還歷歷在目有特別把去年的新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14733.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14761.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
接觸來那本期建議部長在執行登革樂防治的時候要重視跨部會的合作跟經濟相關的危機監測那特別是溝通方式要更靈活更彈性還有是我們來適度的調整策略那溝通方式應該由民眾的角度來看那要建立更有效的危機溝通機制讓民眾瞭解政策而且他們讓願意讓他們願意主動的去清除積水容器或是配合噴藥還有稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14762.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14770.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
那當然在第一線的朋友也是要做得很精準因為我們有看到除了就是有衝突之外我們也看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14773.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14793.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我們也看到在防治的時候有其他的事端延伸那本席希望部長就以上上開的建議在兩個月內給本席一個書面報告OK嗎?OK好 報告委員 這個其實也是家戶是屬於衛生局在負責的啦那我們是戶外的所以我剛剛看到委員這幾個大概都是室內的是衛生局的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14798.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14809.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
臺北新北都有登革勒的疫情那我們桃園也是那希望就是可以宣導所以宣導之外也要真的落實執行可以可以好OK以上好謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝邱委員最標準謝謝謝謝邱委員謝謝部長那接下來欸喔在玩喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14822.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14824.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
好 接下來我們請何欣淳委員 質詢謝謝主席 蘇委員 我們是請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14838.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14854.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
委員好部長好第一次來質詢剛剛有武力化委員提到我台中離山部分的這個垃圾的問題那請部長這邊是不是可以要求地方政府是不是大家中央地方一起合作來看看我們台中市的這個垃圾的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14856.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14883.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
因為確實在這幾年來我聽說尤其臺中市議會的議員曾經也質詢過臺中市的垃圾未來是一個很大很大的一個令人擔憂的地方其實在上一任環保署署長的時候大概兩三年前在疫情時間我就曾經就就交給這個署長有關於各縣市之間地方的這個垃圾的一個處理真的是在這幾年來是一個我們必須要中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14884.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14893.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
要能夠掌握而且要提出有效的解方這部長這第一個提醒也希望我台中的部分請你多多關心第二個剛剛在經濟委員會我聽到這個國發會主委有說要來找你討論商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14899.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14923.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
商量什麼你知道嗎今天經濟委員會的討論的是有關的中小企業的一個創新以及未來面對的這個ESG近鄰碳排那未來我們政府可以如何扶植如何幫助那國發會主委呢有講一句話他說呢他要找環境部來商量因為呢我們呢要結合部會資源要成立綠色科技等 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14924.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14931.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
總統跟院長都很關心啦他們關心醫療了之後其實我後來他們提醒我之後我就積極的去找國發會金管會還有保險公司所以國發會很支持我們要成立一個100億的綠色成長基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14949.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14964.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
就是針對這個淨零循環經濟整個政府可以來投資鼓勵這個產業能夠起來是那我現在就要跟部長分享我在基層我的選區很多的中小企業臺中也是傳統產業的重鎮現在我們針對碳費以及推動減碳的政策是以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14970.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14992.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
大大小那希望是用產業鏈的關係來看整個推動那當然你們現在相關碳費的執法規正在公告那我只是提醒部長中小企業尤其是在產業鏈的中下游的其他這種協力的微型廠商非常的焦慮第一個焦慮是什麼對政府的政策其實他不是那麼的瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14993.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15008.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
不是那麼的了解第二個所謂的這個碳費的前端可能要的所謂的碳盤查什麼碳計算什麼有的沒有的他們也不懂那這中間呢我們也產生了很多在基層上看到民間的所謂的顧問公司來 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15010.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15035.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
來跟各個中小企業說來來我來跟你說明聽我的就對了你知道嗎在上個禮拜的經濟委員會公平會主委到我們立法院來備詢的時候很多位我們地方選區的區域立委都講到一件事情就是因為呢中小企業還有微型企業對於政府的政策跟未來的這個所謂的綠色科技啦我如何可以被認證啊如何可以減碳啊如何怎樣怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15036.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15052.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
沒啥了解所以一大堆的這個所謂的這個顧問公司呢如竹筍般的生出來了那到處吹噓到處招攬然後到處收取顧問費中小企業因為不賣所以他想說這可能比較專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15055.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15077.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
聽信顧問費付了．到底能不能達到政府要的減碳．他們的努力投資的綠色的成本到底能不能被認證都沒人知所以上個禮拜在經濟委員會就要求公平會主委針對如果有廣告不實．或者是有這個說的比做的還好聽．做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15078.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15095.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
很少說了很多的是不是也應該政府要拿出公權力來而這個其實不是只有公平會主委的事我覺得跟環境部有關係這個其實我已經有接獲一些檢舉的案例那我們也在調查當中那我希望我會可以積極來處理的確委員說的是對的因為很多人在販賣這種恐慌焦慮來謀利這的確是不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15101.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15126.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那中小企業也不必過於擔心因為我們有一系列的輔導措施我們是針對大企業要影響到中小企業其實那個量很低很低啦但是我覺得部長這個你要說清楚因為很多真的不懂真的不曉得那大家因為資訊的不透明或是接觸不到接收的不完整所以這樣子的恐慌事實上到處在蔓延我參加了很多的工協會的會員大會 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15128.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15144.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
很多都還在跟我反映這一件事情好 報告委員你就請我去參加你說的好 那我就邀請你我中部有好多的工協會我希望在產業面能夠真的能夠知道說環境部未來對於淨零碳排的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15144.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15165.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
建建式的一個程序時程推動還有輔導的措施還有政府可以怎麼協助的我希望有一個人說了算啊不然我們現在在七點看到的這些顧問公司說了不算那誰說了算尤其呢包括我相信今天有其他委員有問到在近年探牌裡面的探盤查來 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15167.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15193.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
誰算是對的對的話又誰來認證認證跟驗證的單位又有哪些你知道我上網去看喔環境部公告的跟經濟部公告的是不一樣的加數不一樣的數字那請問一下你們怎麼分工那你們又怎麼去認定那我中小企業或是微型企業我如果有相關的問題我自己上網去查了很多都是二代二代年輕人他們會上網查 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15195.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15213.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
可是查的時候他告訴我什麼不好意思啦我去環境部這裡看看我去經濟部這裡看看看來看過去我還是不懂到底誰是權責單位誰說了算那我又該去找誰有沒有可能成立你跟經濟部可以有一個單一窗口好可以我們現在會研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15214.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15230.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
拜託你們演繹好不好我覺得這個很重要很重要好那多久的時間可以成立我們現在在深度節能針對整個大戶的正在進行當中我希望我把這個東西帶帶進去可能兩個月內給委員一個答覆好不好好謝謝謝謝何委員接一期我們請林淑恩委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15248.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15249.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
臺灣的垃圾處理政策最後到現在會導致垃圾堆積如山 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15277.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15297.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
你覺得最簡單的原因如果要說大概是什麼原因?報告委員因為我也看了最近的一些數字啦我就覺得從源頭的這個資訊的掌握的處理我們可能過去沒有很精確源頭的資訊現在不用啊因為就堆積如山一座一座現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15299.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15303.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
呃裸露堆置的垃圾量已經是72萬噸了比如說源頭的數據你不是講源頭減量喔你是講數據可能不精準可是很明顯的就49處的掩埋場堆成一座座的垃圾山新竹特別嚴重全台最大的垃圾堆積區啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15318.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15334.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
新竹的垃圾山已經高達6層樓了16公尺多了5、6層樓總量一個新竹就超過20萬噸全台已經達到72萬公噸這個堆置在那裡的量這是事實這個不是統計的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15336.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15363.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
但是這個是從其實第一個當然這個是你覺得主要的問題是出在哪裡第一個是焚化爐這個整改的問題第二個是整改的問題嗎還有第二個是我們對於整個一般廢棄物事業廢棄物整個這個流向的管制管理這個數據的掌握我必須承認其實我觀察的時候其實我們還是有很大進步的空間我必須要從數據的掌握才可以知道源頭才有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15363.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15363.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15393.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15393.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15420.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15440.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
因為當時其實每一個焚化爐他在這個興建的時候都有簽訂跟地方政府簽訂一些合約包含了就是說他可以收納多少收納多少的失業廢棄物所以啊真正的原因就是大量的失業廢棄物占用了家戶這個要焚化的焚化爐的處理量能排擠了民生垃圾的處理空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15442.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15458.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
所以以新竹市為例新竹市的焚化廠這5年燒失業廢棄物的比例高達45%嚴重影響了民生垃圾的處理能力然後你再去看不是只有新竹市政府包括北投的台北市政府的北投木柵內湖南區廠高雄的岡山廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15464.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15467.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
都超過50%以上的事業廢棄物都進場 進到這個公共的這個焚化爐去欸所以變成本色沒人要修 一般垃圾沒人要修都修事業廢棄物 這樣對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15481.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15508.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
報告委員其實第一個是你說的例如說北部的他的統計例如說我們家戶家戶的這個有人幫我們收垃圾他可能就當成是商業廢棄物事業廢棄物在做計算所以這個其實各個縣市都存在這個數據這個數據上的偏差我們就暫時不討論可是我們就是看到現在你就是這麼多這麼多然後呢新竹我們就講現實一點這還包括就是你說簽約嘛要燒多少的事業廢棄物嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15510.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15527.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
可是在簽約的過程裡面為什麼新竹市政府處理事業費器物一噸收3000元比收新竹我們都是新竹縣的垃圾裸露高達20萬噸全台最大的垃圾山因為新竹縣政府的垃圾要到新竹市政府去收一噸才1000元人家事業費器物進場是3000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15533.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15553.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以新竹市政府當然優先要選擇收這個事業廢棄物去燒而且真正的問題也不是在這裡我們又不是沒有民間焚化廠民間焚化廠他可以處理的餘裕很多欸但是民間焚化廠一頓要收多少錢五千以上講錯了啦民間民間要收多少錢八千八千到一萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15562.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15583.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
發言到1萬還到1萬8啦是公共焚化爐的6倍所以有失業廢棄物的焚化爐可以收而且有餘裕有量能而且民間的焚化爐失業廢棄物的焚化爐不用給你燒到滿它的那個處理量能不用燒到滿就可以賺大錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15585.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15595.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
為什麼?因為收費太貴了啊。所以呢,交給我們的公共焚化爐三千塊,多少?萬倍!不是你說的五千、八千、一萬,是萬倍!所以你對這個數據都沒有掌握。所以2019年啦,經焚化爐處理的一般事業費、器物超過一半。 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15607.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15632.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
將近60萬噸去了大型焚化廠,就是我們的公共焚化廠所以民間還有多少量能限制你知道嗎?署長你知道嗎?保定一點,不知道民間還有多少的量能餘裕可以來處理?署長不知道,保定不知道,你們兩隻手都不知道,你們說你們要管事業廢棄物,說你們要管好焚化爐,說你們要做什麼改革什麼問題都騙人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15635.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15643.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
報告委員那個事業廢棄物是主管機關經濟部他們的工作你們不用追蹤喔那跟你們都無關喔當然要阿數據當然要把握阿要掌握阿民間繁華廠還有漁獄嫌質量可以還高達80多萬噸但是這棟賣宿賣宿一萬八千塊關鍵是在這 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15662.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15670.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
你那個62萬噸叫公共焚化爐本來要燒家戶垃圾的結果去燒了事業廢棄物因為三千塊而已真正要燒事業廢棄物的一棟修門櫃而且還有量能可以處理遠遠大過於你進到公共焚化爐的量啊這要怎麼處理?他還沒燒到半他就可以賺大錢啊 民間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15690.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15713.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
報告委員這個民間的這個我們數字上沒有掌握我們我們了解之後我是跟你講說這種價格這麼嚴重的失衡所以你市場取向一定是成本降低啊大家也要去叫公共分化去修如果要修家戶垃圾新竹市就不需要修新竹縣耶然後一場一場的垃圾山就跑出來這問題在這啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15717.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15729.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
我再說第二個問題,主要問題啦,區域調度的機制失效,我們有調度辦法,但沒有法則和執行力,所以沒辦法進行跨區域有效的調度。你就知道現在市政府還有理由可以修,但是他覺得要修的比較好,事業費修。 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15736.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15743.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
所以新竹市的焚化爐他把新竹縣250萬噸都拒絕了所以只收了150噸啦250噸變成只收150噸所以100噸的垃圾無處去變成堆積成山第三個你們掩埋場不當使用原本要當成戰制的掩埋場因為焚化爐處理不及而被迫大量接受垃圾以台中大理掩埋場為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15763.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15788.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
本來只負責掩埋焚化爐的底渣大理是本來是要埋底渣的偶爾配合綏修的時候、焚化爐綏修的時候暫時加入垃圾臺中有三座大型焚化廠但現在將焚化廠10%的處理量能都給了失業廢棄物所以現在有燒不完的垃圾遠遠不絕的進入掩埋場然後堆積了36萬公噸等待焚燒的民生垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15792.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15795.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以你們在大大的縮短了掩埋場的使用壽命而且最重要的是掩埋場我們已經走回頭路倒退路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15811.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15824.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
在80年代台灣訂定了都市垃圾處理方案以掩埋為主要方式但是到了1991年我們就以改焚化為主掩埋為輔從埋垃圾轉變為埋焚化爐的灰飛的最終處理場址 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15830.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15845.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那灰飛每年固定用掩埋15萬噸左右所以這空間本來就都很省的就很省著用就沒什麼搞現在現在你們走回頭路整個台灣的垃圾處理政策倒退囉然後呢進來的垃圾變成進入掩埋場然後你的終極策略你的精進策略是什麼部長你的精進策略是什麼掩埋打包 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15860.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15868.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
也埋副圖啊這不是掩埋這是什麼把掩埋當成最終處理了所以這不是倒退路那是什麼所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15871.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15889.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
在這種狀況裡面全台灣的一般廢掩埋量這五年來一般廢棄物的掩埋量的成長率百分之一百這五年我知道過去五年不是你啦但是我跟你講方向就這樣子你越來越多可以掩埋就掩埋 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15893.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15896.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
一般費幾乎從108年的10308公噸增加到112年的199574公噸增加的幅度將近100%是99%所以顯著的增加的掩埋場包括大理臺中大理的衛生掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15915.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15919.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
他從108年的2747公噸增加到112年是12萬2700變成12萬3562公噸臺中大理衛生掩埋場掩埋的量這麼大而你衛福部提出的精進策略也是掩埋復土蓋埋蓋埋就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15937.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15961.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
然後呢,臺南的隆起隆起掩埋廠從108年才到本來掩埋量是623公噸到112年是9109公噸啦這是成長幾倍啊所以你們現在精進的策略也是鼓勵掩埋復土所以我們來看一下這個臺南社大拍的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15962.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15962.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15983.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15994.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
變成灰灰的附土然後用底紮再蓋上去灰灰垃圾底紮灰灰垃圾底紮對你說這樣環境風險環評是允許這樣子的嗎以後還要挖起來篩分那些有毒的陽塵對環境對工作人員的傷害對整個周遭的傷害要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16009.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16012.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
這都種金屬耶 灰飛捏 底渣捏 你現在贊助垃圾這位而且底渣用底渣當成副土 這個叫副土底渣當副土 卻吸人啊 所以第一個部長目前這樣堆積的危機啊 你的主要的方式就精進的策略就掩埋副土 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16031.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16035.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
但是從這個數據來看每年進場的一般費逐年增加這樣的覆土這樣的掩埋這樣的蓋牌叫做徹底解決問題嗎第一個第二個針對事業廢棄物佔用公共焚化爐而真正的事業廢棄物處理的焚化爐卻有80萬噸的餘裕卻沒有燒這個問題你具體的改善措施是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16058.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16060.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
現在如果改善目前區域調度機制失效的問題,要怎麼樣更有效的跨區域合作? |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16069.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16084.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
你回答包委員第一個問題是這個只是暫時的我們必須說未來如果這個量能餘裕還是可以去做那不可能24做整備好了他還是要繼續燒事業廢棄物而事業廢棄物處理廠他還是繼續這麼貴然後呢也是還有餘裕可以處理但是就沒有人可以去燒三千到萬倍這就是問題啦要怎麼改觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16098.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16104.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
為什麼一般廢棄物逐年增加?量增加了這麼快啦為什麼?生活形態的改變生活形態的改變外國難道沒有嗎?外國也是一樣外國也是一樣?好那很好我問你這三題你沒有回答我繼續問你你知道台灣從1997年推動資源回收那個時候一推動資源回收人均垃圾10年裡面減少了20% |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16127.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16144.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
現在近年來垃圾量開始增加特別是經濟越發達像新竹縣市新竹市過去一年來人均廢棄物正是台灣全島第一名但是呢我們要講民生垃圾量比日本韓國新加坡還多你說生活形態的改變我們是亞洲發達國家裡面最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16151.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16173.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
2022年平均人均生產1.32公斤日本新加坡都低於1公斤2018到2022年台灣的人均每日產出廢棄物增幅是16.81增加的是我們這四個亞洲發達國家裡面成長速度最快的連新加坡跟日本都是下降的幅度你說的生活形態改變紫色的是什麼你講給我聽我剛才有聽到你在尋答 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16178.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16189.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
你說的我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡我們的生活形態上改變哪裡是我們變他們沒有變的所以我們垃圾成長比他們還要高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16191.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16204.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
網購：有阿人請加波甘摩韓國甘摩日本甘摩Uber Eats 人請加波甘摩韓國甘摩日本甘摩人家很發達你認為垃圾成長是這種生活型態改變人家也是可是為什麼他們的垃圾人均產量是下降我們還在逐年增加你剛才講網購啊疫情啊外送啊人家沒有疫情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16220.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16229.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
亞洲日本韓國新加坡難道沒有網購嗎沒有外送嗎通通都有所以這不要拿這個來當藉口是什麼原因更不要講說啊一般這個進焚化爐的事業廢棄物你們講統計師真是有一部分事業廢棄物是來自餐廳小吃店夜市那餐廳小吃店夜市你要解決這個問題是什麼解決韓國怎麼解決韓國怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16252.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16275.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
你來看一下我們的資源回收政策執行不髒本來我們台灣早年在推動還取得一定的成效結果越來越不髒反觀韓國回收率現在是世界第二高連餅乾袋地毯台灣沒有在回收的吃餅乾大家吃那麼多糖果餅乾台灣沒有回收欸連家都能夠回收為什麼部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16278.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16289.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
而且維修前還要連塑膠瓶都要清洗乾淨資料標籤紙箱也要拆開整瓶去除標籤跟膠袋然後由社區管理員確認以後才能交給清潔隊帶走為什麼為什麼他做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16295.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16311.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
這個就行政能力也有關係啊。你說的那些製造垃圾的人,他們也都有啊。你看這個袋子。你看我們的驗室裡面的事業費器有這個袋子。這個會分類嗎?這沒有分類。台灣連垃圾分類到現在都還在走回頭路。 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16316.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16330.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們非常粗略民眾還有一種不用分這麼細到時候親運都會混在一起為什麼什麼叫親運會混在一起台灣的民眾很認真的在分類然後看到我們的區公所是這樣子做的左手邊資源回收車右手邊垃圾車 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16335.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16341.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
公所把他們支援回收來的支援回收戶倒下去噴射車裡面啦 每天在我們家門口啦 在我們家門口的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16347.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16350.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
這像話嗎地方政府代表這樣做像話嗎垃圾資源回收所有每個人民都好好的回收了那有的時候分類沒做好所以公所地方政府面對這種問題是直接把它倒下去噴射車直接燒啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16371.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16381.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
每天5點半夜做這件事所以你知道這個事情嗎部長? |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16381.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16386.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
直接把資源回收車的物品完全不分類倒進垃圾車而且不是只問到台北市 台北市也是這樣啦 我的助理又常常去卸財了啦你知道為什麼沒有作為? |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16399.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16410.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
部長,台灣這樣子人均廢棄物的產出量成為亞洲發達國家第一名而且成長的速度最快你覺得原因是什麼啦? |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16412.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16432.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
你剛才沒有回答啊那如果你沒有不知道原因你有沒有具體的計畫知道怎麼源頭減廢怎麼讓人均廢棄物的下降的目標要定在哪裡而且要對應的策略拿出來有效策略是什麼你不要跟我講說你怎麼數據失真啊這不是事實這個都是事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16433.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16449.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
第二 清潔隊回收的事業廢棄物要怎麼處理啦 韓國是怎麼處理 人家專用垃圾怎麼處理餐廳小吃店市場 外國 我們已經輸韓國也沒關係 你看人家怎麼處理啊 我們繼續這樣處理下去還不行的 然後韓國對垃圾分類的嚴格的要求和處罰機制 其實很有名的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16458.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16476.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那你知道地方政府彰化縣資源回收及處理分類項目指引現在他們彰化縣政府環保局做得很認真從電子發票巧拼到茶葉等五十幾種垃圾都教人家怎麼回收怎麼搭配所以彰化你知道彰化的垃圾減量多少嗎三成以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16479.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16502.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
兩三層除雨回收總量提高一倍支援回收物平均提升15%所以有沒有效政府有決心要做一定有效但是是你知道我們的除雨啊大家都在丟除雨啊到最後地方政府給它丟到焚化爐裡面我們認真的除雨拿去除雨桶丟結果地方政府到最後丟到焚化爐裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16511.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16528.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
中央到底有什麼政策手段可以讓彰化的經驗可以複製出去韓國回收率這麼好能夠回收台灣沒有回收的品項你有沒有考慮要增加回收的品項的範圍能不能向他國來學習最後地方清潔隊這樣的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16529.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16539.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
嚴重的影響了民眾分類的意願和信心我這麼認真就要分類還要你把牌子放在分色車要做笑的我這麼認真就要做廚餘你搞不好你也是把牌子放下去燒所以你們就是上行下效嘛環境部對這個有什麼做法你還說你知道那你具體的政策來看你要怎麼監督和改善清潔隊的回收作業呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16558.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16563.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這樣都在這裡點點就好了 不用回答 不用啦 找時間啦 他也不知道要怎麼做啦 有啦 有啦 張化的我們都全省一起來關注 都不知道耶 處理也不知道耶 事業費稅務量能喔 遠遠大過於你把它拖下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16579.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16579.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
謝謝委員謝謝林主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16605.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16614.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
介紹謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員不在、牛喜廷委員質詢。戲文簽啊。好,謝謝主席啊。這個彭副總有請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16625.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16642.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
委員好這我們長話短說啦這個今天當然大部分的重點會放在就是說比如說我們如何增加焚化爐的量能啊如何處理這個長期的比如說桃園有所謂的垃圾打包嘛那其實到現在都沒有辦法被好好處理所以這都是大的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16642.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16661.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那我想很多委員這地方都有所關注我們就不再多言但是本期今天要提的是相對小但是它同樣很重要的事情我們現在很多地方因為垃圾不落地的政策所以到最後垃圾車收完了垃圾都要去焚化爐對不對那離焚化爐近的地方可能沒有這樣大的問題可是像有些行政區離焚化爐非常遠所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16664.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16690.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
如果說我要把垃圾收完之後就送到焚化爐去處理那可能會造成所謂的垃圾裸露堆跟垃圾車安排的路線調度出現了很大的一個困難所以出現了所謂的垃圾轉運站這樣子的一個臨時設施那你的報告裡面雖然它比例不高可是它還是一個必須被處理的問題而且我覺得比起這些大的長年以來累積的共業的問題你要處理這些小的問題其實比較容易一些啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16690.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16715.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
以本期的選區歸山為例我們的這個大埔垃圾轉運站放在那邊20幾年了它也是一個小的供業那現在麻煩啊就是說地方開始發展起來啦因為是露天的轉運啊所以這個臭味就造成了空氣污染旁邊剛好又是重化區每天大家都在陳情抗議對不對那環保局找地頭昏腦脹那我們在這個過程中當然也希望可以找到一個好的解方嘛那最後幾個討論的結果啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16718.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16732.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我找到了新的地方結果還是被罵我新的地方這個環保局已經答應說我們要做空污防治設施的它是室內轉運減量都做了但還是被罵為什麼因為不管怎麼樣垃圾轉運站它就是個零幣設施部長你同意我這樣說法對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16733.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16750.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
這是大家的習慣啦但是我們要改變一下對這觀念嘛對不對那這觀念確實會影響政策的推動那其實我們在思考說這轉運站退場的過程中其實也不是沒有別的想法比如說我歸山的離中壢的焚化爐以桃園來講它確實距離很遠可是我離巴黎的焚化爐很近啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16751.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16777.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我距離很快啊可是問題是一旦涉及到跨區的區域聯防的時候當然各縣市政府有自己的本位嘛也就是說那沒辦法我連自己的事情都不一定處理得完不一定有辦法處理何況我還要承載你這個東西我承載的時候地方會不會有民怨所以我覺得把跨區的區域聯防的機制設計起來其實很重要這我跟你的前任其實也在這個地方討論過那今天你新上任我論和也要把這個概念再講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16778.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16779.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
你們有沒有做相關的盤點? |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16806.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16809.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我們希望看到的所謂區域聯盟機制是中央有所鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16835.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16851.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
也就是說我做了區域聯防增加了垃圾處理的效率他其實有完成你中央的大的政策目標那我願意響應這樣是用這樣方法做的請問他得到什麼有沒有好處比如說政策更多的利多啊專案的補貼啊或者是中央在哪些地方的一些特別的支持有沒有一些這樣的機制的設計讓這件事情變得有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16854.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16878.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
因為現在講說我們要把垃圾如果要拜託新北幫忙處理這樣我們可以在不找新的地方的情況下處理垃圾轉運的問題可是主力放在那個地方不好談那我們中央有沒有什麼政策的誘因讓他從不可能談變成可能談甚至有機會解決好委員我們來設計一下好不好給我們一點點時間我們去到地方來處理好不好這我希望中央可以針對區域聯防的部分給予實質的政策鼓勵啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16878.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16887.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
好不好那其他垃圾減量當然該做的就做我相信只要方向對也合理大家也都會給予支持啦希望部長費一點心思在這個小的題目上面好嗎OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16897.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16915.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
繼續我們請耐斯堡委員、耐斯堡委員、耐斯堡委員不在陳庭輝委員、陳庭輝委員、陳庭輝委員不在高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16918.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16941.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
委員蘇巧．本日會議行答全部結束委員蘇巧慧．林建祺．牛喜廷．謝一鳳等提出書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一報告及行答完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16943.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16970.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
第2委員執行未及答覆或請補充資料者．請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆．委員另要求其限則從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息 經期三上午九點繼續開會謝謝大家 上會休息 休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16984.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16985.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
委員會主席 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【10月7日及9日二天一次會】） |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:58 - 13:16:00 |
| IVOD_ID |
16146 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16146 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-2 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T08:31:58+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T13:16:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |