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| 委員名稱 |
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| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1840.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
今天的公聽會正式開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1849.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1869.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
財劃法例已經數十年沒有修訂那上個會期的時候我們羅民財委員擔任召委的時候有舉辦過一次公聽會那因為我們希望這個會期的話這麼多年來沒有解決不管是中央地方或隨時方面或地方政府之間水平方面的這個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1871.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1899.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
議題我們都可以順利的討論出結果所以本會期一開始這個我們就這一次再召開一個公聽會然後就會進入實質修法的這個程序非常歡迎今天立定的學者專家我們在場的委員政府機關代表來參加今天財政收支劃分法修正草案的公聽會那我們來先介紹在場的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1902.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1922.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們有黃珊珊委員還有郭國武委員我們介紹一下我們今天出席的學者專家今天有我們成功大學經濟學系的蔡群立蔡教授歡迎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1925.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1947.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們這個政治大學財政學系的賴玉邦賴教授謝謝您先來兩位吧那我們介紹今天出席的列席的機關代表我們歡迎我們財政部莊翠雲莊部長財政部法制處的姚瑩姚處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1950.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1974.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們國庫署的陳柏辰陳署長我們賦稅署的宋秀玲宋署長行政院主計總處公務預算處的徐永毅徐處長歡迎他我們內政部民政司的劉立芳劉專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1977.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2003.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們國家發展委員會經濟發展處的郭永騰專門委員 歡迎法務部林峰文林參事 歡迎今天也來了相當多的地方的單位來齁 我們也來歡迎各地方政府派代表來參加這邊都有齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2005.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2031.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
來 我們這邊是臺北市政府財政局的周淑慧 周專委 歡迎歐新北市政府財政局的蔣喬美 主任秘書謝謝桃園市政府財政局的簡雅慧 簡專委臺中市政府財政局的蔡明山 蔡專委 歡迎歐 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2033.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2058.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
台南市政府財政稅務局的陳家慶陳專委歡迎高雄市政府財政局的李仲俊李專委歡迎新竹縣政府財政處的范蕙琦副處長苗栗縣政府財政處的王淑欣副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2064.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2080.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
南投縣政府財政處林靜娟副處長張化縣政府財政處王淑君科長雲林縣政府財政處張志猛副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2083.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2109.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
嘉義縣財政稅務局陳小玲陳科長屏東縣政府財稅局莊美英副局長宜蘭縣政府財政稅務局李品賢科員歡迎花蓮縣政府財政處曾章恩科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2112.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2138.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
臺東縣政府財政及經濟發展處葉振鶴 葉副處長澎湖縣政府財政處李振聰 李副處長金門縣政府財政處陳國廷 處長 歡迎連江縣政府財政稅務局張壽民 科長基隆市政府財政處李佩芳 科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2141.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2167.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
新竹市政府財政處黃襄嶺副處長嘉義市政府財政稅務局的張孟華科長那我們又來了兩位專家學者中興大學國家政策研究所助理教授紀和鈞紀教授政治大學財政學系羅光達羅教授歡迎那 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2169.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2196.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我看到我們今天各地縣市政府來的代表全道這個會期我們的目標就是把財政收支修法通過如果大家有相關意見今天我們請專家協會發表意見然後如果各個地方政府有什麼相關意見歡迎回去反映給你們各地的選區的立委或是把相關意見也可以送到我們這邊來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2199.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2226.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們現在開始要發言我們先講一下這個發言的一些規則這個議會發言每一位我們兩位兩位學者專家然後就請一位因為我們立法委員會陸陸續續來登記發言兩位學者專家發言結束後我們會邀請一位立法委員發言然後每一位學者的發言時間8分鐘結束前1分鐘我們會按您提醒那 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2228.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2242.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們立委的發言時間5分鐘了那全部發言完畢後我們再請行政機關就業管的權責整體來回應那我們先請第一位專家學者蔡群立蔡教授 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2254.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2275.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那各地方的這個財政處的相關官員上回的這個公聽會有請大家發表意見但是如果今天大家還有意見要表達我們也是表示歡迎謝謝等到這個專家學者立法委員發言完畢如果各地方政府有什麼意見我們歡迎各位表示意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2280.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2294.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席還有各位委員還有各位縣親大家好那接下來由我來就是來報告一下就是說我對於財政收支劃分法是我要修正那我先講一下現況那目前大家所關心的議題包括就是說所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2295.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2299.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
財政失衡,希望透過統籌款分配額度增加,增加地方資源,達成有權益的保障。縣市政府對付出的稅收貢獻與獲得統籌款分配款的不對稱問題, |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2318.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2319.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2338.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2338.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
公聽會議主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2366.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2383.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
首先我想第一點的話我是先從中央政府的話稅出的項目的觀點來分析那因為我想中央政府的一個稅出的話大概每年都有9項那以1、2年來看的話社會福利的話在所謂的這個稅出的預算總支出的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2384.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2391.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有26.3%那教育科技文化18.2%然後經濟發展17.8%然後國防支出14.6%這四個比例就已經佔了77%那其中這幾個項目都是人民相當關心的一個支出那比如說社會福利的話包括運營假補貼勞工勞工保險、就業保險或者是職災保險、老農福利津貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2411.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2432.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
教育科學文化支出﹐包括對於國立高中補助﹐或者是人才培育補助特別經濟的所謂的發展支出﹐包括離島的建設﹐然後所謂社會住宅﹐新建社會住宅補貼﹐穩定供電的一個建設﹐還有所謂的撥補農業的天然災害補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2435.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2437.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2452.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2452.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2482.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2511.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那再來的話是從這個圖表的話我想要來關心一下地方財政是否失衡那從這個104年到112年來看的話就只有105年跟107年的話所謂的這個財政地方財政有短處其他的話地方政府的這個都是剩餘的那這邊的話這最後一個欄位的話我想要看的是地方政府的一個自籌財源在地方政府的一個稅出的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2512.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2512.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2534.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2535.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
財政公聽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2550.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2575.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
政府會按照地方制度的第三章地方自治項目來執行也就是發揮地方的優勢能夠促進當地的地方的一個發展不過如果我們從中央的這個角度12年我來看一下中央政府的一個總預算編列的第二點要項的話當時是12年的話中央是重視加速所謂的公共建設投資等等就是有包括很多的公共建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2576.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2602.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以換言之這個從地方角度中央跟地方他的目標的話還是在規劃的時候是有所不一樣的所以說從基於這樣子的話我覺得就是說如果中央跟地方要執行所謂的財化法如果要有所改變的時候可能還是必須要存有明確的一個劃分跟規範這也因此隱含的就是說財化法如果要修正的話地方制度跟行政法同時也要一併修正要完整的配套措施的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2605.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2606.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2629.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2635.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
稅客收入85.1%經濟活動跟勞動市場所課徵的稅收是國家運作最大的來源如果說今天中央跟所謂的這個地方的財源額度有所改變的話換言之沒有比較強大的基礎建設總體建設的話那可能相對來講的話國家整體的課稅稅收的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2655.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2655.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2671.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2671.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2690.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2711.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
衡量變化以後然後來做修正第4點的話我想我再從這幾個表這幾個表的話是考慮到所謂的地方政府12年的話就是有兩個縣市它是有短促的那你可以看到縣市政府的話這幾個縣市政府的話自從財源的一個算出的比例是從10%變成到60%範圍相當的廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2716.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2716.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2737.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2737.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2766.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2776.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席在座各位先進大家好今天很高興來這邊分享一下我對於財政收支劃分法的一些看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2793.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2821.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那其實要談到財政收支劃分的話呢其實就是大概就是關於財政的分權跟財政的集權不過這兩個東西當然就不是全有或全無它比較像是光譜的分配那就是看我們比較趨近於光譜的哪一端那這個東西當然就會取決於國家的財政的體制比方說像聯邦制的國家像美國、加拿大、德國這些國家的話它是因為它是分權制的國家所以可以看得出來它的中央預算的比例呢其實大概是在五六十 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2822.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2822.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2850.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2852.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2875.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2898.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
同樣的如果說納稅者知道他要付出的跟他從裡面得到的這個收益他有所連結的話那政府就必須要對於這個支出要更有所效率才行所以這就是我說支出要有效率在學理上面的話就是說稅收跟支出要做緊密的連結那這樣的話就像我簡報上面講的他可以降低財政換血或者是免費午餐的這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2902.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2922.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如果從這個觀點來看的話要達到我們剛剛講的支出跟稅收能夠充分的連結其實最理想的話就是用財政能夠充分的支出這也就是為什麼最近世界各國都會趨向於地方的分權因為這樣的話就像我剛剛講會符合支出的效率原則但是地方的分權能夠用在我們這邊嗎我們來看一下現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2925.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2951.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
現況的話我們這邊的話其實每一個地方的貧富差異很大如果你要用稅收分層的話其實你會擴大現有的差距所以在現有的基礎上這條路看起來是有些困難的那另外一個如果說你要讓地方有權利去決定稅率的話除了現在的其實現在很多稅地方其實是有辦法去決定它的時效稅率的這個當然我就不細提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2952.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2980.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但問題就在於說因為地方幅員太小所以它的稅基啊流動性都很大所以很難常常會產生租稅競爭的情況所以一個理想的情況是說如果你真的要達到充分的自主的話那必須要縣市重新整併那能夠幅員夠大那你要用分權用分層的話呢大概各區也不會差太多這樣才有辦法但問題是這個做得到嗎我個人是覺得這個很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2981.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2981.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3001.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3019.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
是比較了解當地的需求可是他缺點的話就是我剛剛說的稅收跟支出的連結比較薄弱因為他拿到這些錢都不是他自己課的稅那所以呢這個花起來他就比較沒有痛感那我當然不是說他沒有效率但我現在是在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3020.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3020.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3039.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3039.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
隨時分配政府支出趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3069.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3093.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
還有幾點我覺得中央還是得保留相當程度的稅收來因應一些全球化的挑戰比方說除了疫情我剛剛提到之外像全球暖化的議題這個也必須要由中央來應付地方對這一個方面我看是力有未待那另外一個大家都知道世界是平的也就是說我們現在其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3094.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3095.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3115.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3137.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
通常也是由中央來做會比較合適所以從這些觀點裡面我覺得中央勢必還是要保留相當程度的預算然後來因應它的挑戰那接下來我們來看一下水平分配水平分配的話我覺得如果按照現有的話我一直覺得它有兩個很大的問題第一個的話就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3138.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3153.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
他就是一個這麼大的池一個這麼大的鋪可是你在分配的時候有些時候有些項目你是要考慮到效率但有些時候你要考慮到地方之間的公平但是我們非常清楚效率跟公平的目標其實是相衝突的所以怎麼辦我會覺得說可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3154.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3156.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
今天大家各個地方要來競逐這些財源 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3173.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3198.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那這個就好像是大家都要去公海上捕撈這些魚那這個東西就會產生我們非常清楚的共有財的悲劇也就是大家都去搶到最後比如說公海上的魚就會產生過度捕撈的現象大家都要來競逐這些經費那可能你就會發生這個經費會需求過多的問題那有什麼解方呢在學體上解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3199.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3199.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝賴教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3231.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3231.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
黃珊珊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3241.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3261.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝主席,謝謝今天參與的所有的學者專家以及政府的部門財政收支發言法在上個會期我們已經討論過非常多次而且最重要的是我們通過了臨時提案要求財政部要在這個會期開議前提出財政收支劃分法的草案版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3262.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3277.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
但是我們9月份的時候看到財政部的公文說現在呢白話穩講就是中央還沒有辦法處理因為地方政府還在互相搶餅不知道要釋出多少錢所以沒有辦法提出草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3278.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3305.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我覺得這個論點跟這個做法對於立法院來說是相當的不負責任也就是說這件事情已經討論多時25年沒有修正我想非常多的專家學者都清楚那地方政府在這麼多年中間碰到的問題是一樣的問題就是我們的公視我們的分配完全是靠中央的養中央的鼻息所以中央我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3306.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3322.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
民眾黨提出的版本其實非常的清楚第一不要影響中央的正式運作因為這幾年平均的相關中央剩餘的執行預算之後的稅金剩餘大概都是兩千多億所以我們希望再不影響正式運作的前提之下釋出部分的財源 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3323.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3346.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以我們提出的版本清楚不會影響到中央正式運作第二個我們希望能夠保障地方政府在新法新制通過之後不低於現在它的相關分配稅額這兩個原則的情況之下我們訂出了一個所謂的分配公式由將來成立統籌分配稅款的委員會來辦理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3347.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3363.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
內容其實對財政部都是相當有利的但是我們很遺憾的是到現在為止財政部他們既然有分配公示既然有分配方法但是不願意提出自己的版本這一點我覺得很奇怪我們是要把你現在的方法讓你能夠入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3365.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3365.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
提供相關的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3387.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3413.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這兩個原則是我們的版本很清楚的但是我們也不希望提出來的版本會造成中央一下子拿個五六千億這樣的狀況所以我們的版本非常的中庸我希望在這個接下去的這個會期剛剛昭偉也說了這個會期會討論甚至希望能夠通過所以我希望財政部不要再繼續假裝沒看見你們不提版本將來通過的就會是立法院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3414.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3441.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
通過立法院的版本的時候我不希望再造成所謂說我們沒有行政院沒有版本的情況下說國會不讓你們討論這件事情我希望不要再發生在這一次所以謝謝專委在現在就開了公聽會接下去我相信財政委員會會非常負責任的來討論有關財化法剛剛所專家學者所提出的每一個見解包括怎麼分配隨時分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3442.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3463.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
水平分配這些公平的原則還有讓地方政府參與的機會我想每個地方政府都有自己的苦水要吐每一個單位他們都認為說雖然現在政府財政不錯所以看起來他們的錢沒有變少而且每年的分配還增加但是我們希望的是把這個制度跟精神落實在法律的文字裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3464.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3464.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
財政部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3482.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3504.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們的版本大概增加2700億對地方只會多不會少不會影響中央的正式運作另外一個就是我們希望能夠地方政府分配要同仇分配稅款跟一般補助款的加總金額不低於現況這兩個原則的情況之下其實財政部你有很好的方法去討論所謂的水平分配的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3504.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3505.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3534.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3535.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
財政部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3564.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3565.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
財政部議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3600.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3601.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
簡報裡可以操作好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3603.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3632.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
主席各位委員還有各位專家學者大家好還有這個地方政府的代表大家好今天很高興能夠來參加這個財化法的修法的公聽會那我因為上個禮拜有兩天那個那個颱風假所以我以為這個沒有要召開所以我就沒有按時的交出我的powerpoint那我趁著週末做了一下簡單的請大家稍微看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3637.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3662.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個是我在財政部的網站上面找到的我們看一下我們在112年的這個負稅收入的變動因為在講財化法的這個修法的過程中其實一直有一個爭議就是說到底中央是不是集權了又集錢所以我們可能要先來問一下說到底中央拿了多少錢那還有就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3662.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3662.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3681.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3683.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3710.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3729.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
他增加了多少?他相對111年增加了280億而且他的增減增加幅度是5.1%其實是很高的而且我們其實也要看一個很特別的是我們在1996年修法的時候增加了一個稅叫做證券交易稅就是證交稅納進了國稅裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3732.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3742.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那大家看看這幾年國家的財政比較好很大程度跟我們的這個我們的證券交易市場的活絡化有很大的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3744.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3749.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這也是我上財政部的112年財政統計希望財政部的眾多部長還有各位長官不要生氣大家看一下如果我們按各級政府稅入淨額按政府別來分我們看一下這個最下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3768.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3770.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
112年中央政府的整個結構比佔了74.8%直轄市政府是18.1%縣市政府只佔5.4% |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3788.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3809.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
5.4那鄉鎮市區公所只有1.8所以確實這個證明就是說我們從民國因為我們從民國89年到現在足足24、5年的情況之下確實大部分原來是歸省的這個部分的錢劃歸給的中央了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3810.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3833.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
畫歸了中央 那麼當時在做這個討論的時候其實就有一個問題就是 它明明是地方稅啊 為什麼你把它畫給中央當時我記得我有問過一些當時參與地質法的修法還有財化法修法的一些老師們 這個我的老師們他們當時的講法是說 因為當時地方針對這個事情爭執不休所以先畫給中央 將來再慢慢還給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3835.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3838.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
現在25年了,四分之一世紀了,我們該還給地方了 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3842.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3871.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 那麼我因為這個本身對財政法還有地制法比較有興趣所以有在耕耘這一塊啦那我一直認為如果我們從這個比較法的角度來看中央跟地方的財政劃分原則在配合我國的憲政制度的話國稅跟地方稅的劃分是中央立法且執行事項換句話說這件事情是絕對的法律保留是立法院的責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3872.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3895.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
立法院的責任,立法院要去做,為什麼?憲法107條你講啦這個是中央跟地方的最大的一個權限劃分之一那麼你應該要做,立法院有義務要做已經玩了25年了,該做了那第二個就是我們大法官釋字550號這個解釋我想大家可能都記憶比較沒有那麼深刻了 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3896.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3922.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
稍微提醒大家講那個就是有關於健保案當年健保案的那個那個釋憲案當時大法官特別講說地方自治權裡面有一個核心叫做財政自主權所以那個大法官還講了說有些東西是不可以叫地方編的像什麼呢不可以幫地方編預算編支出不可以把這個國防外交這相關的非地方私事事務叫地方出錢但是大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3923.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3939.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
沒有想過是地方可能他沒有錢的時候他根本沒有錢的時候你沒有什麼財政自主的那個可能性啊再來是什麼就是區域發展均衡原則這個是我們在講財政法一個很重要而且我們財化法30條第一項前段跟地制法69條69條第一項已經明白講了區域發展要均衡所以這個是中央的責任這不是地方的責任啊怎麼會一直覺得說啊這個這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3951.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3954.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
中央跟地方要夥伴關係要事前的協商機制可是我們看得出來我們從來沒有事前協商嗎從來都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3976.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3999.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個就是一個不好的惡性循環中央主導一切,地方區域發展不均富者越富,窮者越窮仰望中央給錢,然後中央全錢在手然後又轉過來,中央主導一切,地方區域發展不均就是這樣的一個無限輪迴其實對於我們非六都以外的民眾來講其實是不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4001.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4027.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個就是最新的也是財政部的中央統籌分配款的款項也是最近我們在9月3號的時候有個新聞就講說臺北市都突破了700億然後有些縣市很窮那為什麼會這樣這也是我們為什麼要修財化法的一個很重要的概念那麼我的修法建議總共有兩個方案提供大家做參考第一個方案是什麼就是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4028.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4034.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
只修這個營業稅就是那個40%那個直接100%了啦因為那本來就省的稅嘛然後另外什麼就是遺產稅跟贈與稅廢掉那個給鄉鎮市而是給縣為什麼因為怎麼會直接給了鄉鎮市然後縣拿不到半毛錢這個是很特別的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4051.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4054.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
2.營業稅直接回歸地方稅學習民國77年原來財劃法的精神就是將直轄市營業稅的部分比例劃入中央統回分立法因為民國77年的時候那個時候講說直轄市的營業稅50%要劃給省 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4080.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4092.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
要劃到省﹑就中央普通分法劃給省喔為什麼平衡彼此啊不好意思我最後講個這個就不好意思這個時間不夠這個我有我的那個powerpoint在提供給各位分享這個是因為我們這個提綱上面有講要講中央跟地方的這夥伴關係所以我引介這個法國的地方財政委員會這個是一個正式的組織放在法國的地方自治法典裡面剛才前面的專家學員都講說先講 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4109.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4109.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4135.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4150.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
要把責任劃給地方的時候那麼這個時候要大家現在考慮說到底地方要花多少錢那麼他的成員大家看一下他的成員有眾議員有參議員有大區議長聯合會的議長代表有審議會議長聯合會的四位代表有什麼有他們那種區域行政法人的聯合會的七位代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4160.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4163.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
鄉鎮市長聯合會派15位市長代表而且內政部長派11位國家代表所以總共有32名而且他們的主席長期來都是地方自治團體的不管是市長或者大區議會的議長來擔任這個委員會的主席所以在每次修法之前都由大家先好好討論一下再來進行修法這個是我的一些簡單的建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4191.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4205.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我們謝謝紀教授雖然有颱風,我們修法還是風雨無阻接著我們請政大財政系的劉光達羅教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4215.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4243.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
主席各位委員還有在座的部會還有地方的長官還有專業學者大家早安大家好我是政治大學財政學系羅光達今天非常高興有這個機會非常榮幸在這裡分享一下我對財劃法劃分的一些初步的一個看法這個在學校教書教久了所以說我還是習慣先把這個問題跟現況稍微說明一下然後再根據這樣的情況再提出我自己的看法以及為什麼我們先來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4253.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4267.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那目前來說的話呢最大的一個問題其實大家都非常有共識就是時空背景已經跟過去不太一樣那在民國這個88年1999年的時候呢因為金省或我們講的動省的關係呢原本的我們的這個地方跟中央的這種結構已經大為的轉變從過去的這個2都22縣到現在的6都16縣所以整個政府的結構已經很不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4275.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4276.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
租稅結構大幅改變原本省稅、地方稅、營業稅目前歸於國稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4303.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4325.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
財政部非常肯定財政部在過去幾年的租稅改革上所得稅增加非常多但是增加的部分還是國稅不過我們等一下看一下財化法雖然稅機稅收增加但是因為它上有上限造成我們雖然增加了但是可以分的金額上還是有一些的限額 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4325.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4328.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
國際上各層級補助款分成統籌分配、補助、協助、分層統籌分配下級政府得到的稅收上級政府根據下級政府的財政狀況統籌加以分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4345.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4361.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
補助跟協助大概就是補助款的一個概念當然補助大概就是上級政府對下級政府協助上面來說的話就是比較好的下級政府反而會支持上級政府分成共享稅的概念在中央跟地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4361.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4383.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
共同針對某一個稅務來分享這樣的稅收目前來說的話我們台灣來說話最主要是統籌分配稅款補助款跟稅收分成的制度統籌分配稅款其實這個制度大家都知道不過我用這個表格來說明一下我們大概會分成三個階段可以去做這樣的分配第一個我們大概用財劃法的一個分配的比例94%普通的6%為特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4386.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4387.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
分配辦法分配直轄市、縣市、鄉鎮市根據公視分配這樣制度之下問題就會產生為什麼是這個比例為什麼是這個公視為什麼要這樣分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4403.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4421.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個就是我們目前大家在爭議的一個目的另外我們在這個統籌分配稅款當中等下我會說應該要以國稅為主但是我們目前會有一個地方稅也就是土地增值稅在縣市政府的20%也納入到我們這個這樣子的一個統籌分配稅款的一個比例當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4424.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4443.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
中央統籌分配稅款有縣市、縣市根據基準財政需求、基本財政收入、相關定義、相關辦法、還有所謂的鄉鎮市所以我們一套的統籌分配稅款當中有中央、縣市跟鄉鎮市所以在比例上或公視上來說就會非常非常複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4444.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4444.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
稅收分層 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4461.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4462.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
國稅分給地方,縣稅分給鄉鎮市 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4480.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4486.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
統統分配稅跟稅收分層在既定的稅收之下沒有考量下級政府的收支狀況統統分配稅款跟補助款還有一些法律上面或是位階上面的關係我這邊提供相關的書面資料供大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4503.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4529.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
因為時間的關係,我就直接的來看一下說我個人的一個淺見其實在政策設計上面來說的話,我們看一下目前的統計分配稅款來說我自己認為它是一個換寡又換軍的一個問題,但是要誰先誰後不過在釐清這個問題之前,我們要先來看一下說統計分配稅款,稅收分成跟補儲款它的性質跟目的上面有什麼相同跟不同的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4529.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4555.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
對我來說,統統分分稅款跟稅從分層是來解決不足的問題那補助款,因為它可能有專案性的它有計劃性的,它可以來解決不均的問題那不足跟不均呢,其實還是不同的那不足,我認為應該要先滿足基本的各縣市基本的財政需求我們一般生活在這個社會上面基本的食衣住行娛樂必須要受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4555.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4556.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
財政上的努力財政上的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4576.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4580.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
分配公式必須要簡化與一致性我們先來解決不足的問題再來考慮不均的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4597.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4624.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
既然這樣子的概念出現之後我建議在統籌分配稅款當中主要解決是因為不足的問題所以應該要以國稅為主我建議納入統籌分配稅款的國稅和它的比例相對來說原本屬於地方稅的營業稅那個比例可以適度的大幅的提高第二個在財政部的努力之下我們所得稅優化了稅收增加的比較明顯其實相對的比重也可以提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4625.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4629.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
統統分配契約款解決所有地方政府的基本財政不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4641.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4657.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
公說公有理 婆說婆有理人口重要 面積重要 農業縣市重要 海防長度重要我們就讓所有的地方政府按照他所提的最有力的指標納入我們的公視假設22個縣市都認為人口很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4658.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4658.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
相同是甚麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4673.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4675.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4694.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4723.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
另外除了解決這個我們講的基本財政需求之外剛剛那個我認為是青行獎學金但是我覺得要讓地方政府有一定的優秀獎學金你必須要讓他說你不能靠爸爸媽媽你不能當躺平族給一定的優良的獎學金既然是獎學金財政部可以訂定審查標準但是對於直轄市你是比較好的經濟條件比較好你的甲組的比賽一定能要求一定要高於個縣市政府的這樣子的比賽那最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4724.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4724.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4739.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4762.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
分給下級的比率可以提高特別是我剛剛講的國稅的部分統州分配稅款應該是國稅我們地方稅的土政稅我建議改成所謂稅收分層那新增可能的稅員部分的營業稅或部分的營所稅也許是一個考量的方向不妨暫居大家時間謝謝以上是我的一個意見非常謝謝我們羅教授謝謝接著我們請賴世寶賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4779.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4795.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進首先要肯定我們主席要開始關心牌我們的財化法這個很好的開始另一方面我覺得我們的主席宅心仁厚部長感謝他 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4799.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4810.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
今天的公聽會已經開過一次了不是沒有開過再給你開一次就是給你拖時間所以第二個我就要公開譴責我們的總部長將立法院的決議視如我們上個會期就做了決定了決議通過了在這個會期開始之前要把財政部版本送過來到現在呢什麼都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4829.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4839.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
藐視國會：藐視財委會：沒有事如此啊怎麼會這個樣子呢你們也答應的那時候在這裡講來講去最後你們答應的在這個會期開始要提出來啊版本在哪裡版本在哪裡通通都沒有找了國務署來跟我講胡說八道一通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4856.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4859.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
跟以前講的一樣 因為各縣市之間擺不平你就是希望擺不平啦你們就是101個檔案財政部都現在為止還是講我們現在給各縣市的補助款都增加啦他們的增加 這個增加 那個增加對不起 那是based on什麼立即於什麼 立即於你給錢就是當皇帝的思想 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4885.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4889.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
賴清德已經把自己當皇帝在運錯了結果我們財政部一樣我出了這個版本跟主席報告不要等版本了沒有版本了我們拜託下一次你再當領主主席就開始審了就開始審了一定一定就開始審了也沒有規定說一定要等你們版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4915.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4919.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
只有你們太客氣放福氣喔吃定立法院喔這裡面都很簡單嘛垂直分配 水質分配垂直 你看多少幾千億給地方政府你說現在都有 可是現在是什麼現在是你憐憫他們啦給錢啦 你是安頂制啦 安擠制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4943.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4964.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
你用的是什麼 立法規定我的版本剝3000億給地方政府地方政府要怎麼分 再去分你們現在就用地方政府擺不平 然後呢 就偷莊部長 請你記住一件事情當初的屯房稅 我們有幾個版本十幾個版本啦你又講一百個理由 不可以審啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4969.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4974.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
賴清德一聲立下為了配合選舉賴清德一聲立下你這不是過了嗎所以你的部長可以一直做到現在就這樣子配合賴清德總統選了他的屯門是一聲立下你就給他通過了啊我們在那裡十幾個版本搞這麼久不可以審就不可以審而且那時候民進黨人多 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4996.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4999.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我以為表決會輸 就這樣子 欸 就過了難道賴清德學長總統 莊協宇沒有功勞嗎 功勞很大你看那些部會首長 留任不多啊莊部長是其中一個啊 為什麼 配合賴清德啊很悲哀啊 莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5018.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5028.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那這裡要專業啊 你不要只有政治啊政治 可以考慮政治 但是應該第二線你要摸摸自己的良心啊你在 最少最少 你在上個會期你答應啊你答應啊 你要提出來為什麼這版本在那裡沒有版本啊坑坑如也啊這麼好意思在這裡沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5048.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5054.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們總統選總統會審討總統對於已經太客氣了太客氣了把客氣當福氣我們主席已經宣布了下一次開始審才會划 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5063.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5090.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
全職運備我的版本3000億不要分給地方以後就不要跟你一樣3000億啊你主動給人家法律規定多3000億給人家地方怎麼分按人口分按他的招商成績分按什麼分土地面積分或者按照其他的特售的地方分那個都第二個層次第一個層次先把錢放幾千億下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5091.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5097.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個你們做得到嗎?你好歹你要講到現在為止沒有!一個都沒有!我以為國務組要來找我說好歹說可以放多少給地方雖然你法沒有出來你告訴我1000億、2000億、3000億我都覺得你有成立到現在為止完全沒有成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5113.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5135.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
完全吃定立法院 大家以為財務會我都是跟你 你好我好 大家好 大家都當好人這個 我再強調一遍我們下一次開始審財務法 絕對審財務法而且委員這麼多版本 財政部沒有版本拉倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5136.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5163.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們就來審我們就來審沒有規定說一定要有你們的部分我覺得今天這個公聽會主席太宅心人後真的太客氣了下一次真的拜託主席就開始審這個才會好這以上我個人的一個也謝謝所有的學者專家以前我們當立委以前我也是學者專家之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5164.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5178.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
委員會被請到這裡但是我告訴各位今天各位都是陪著莊翠英部長跑龍套啦你們講這個都假的啦就在怕他不敢決定再做龍套做龍套就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5180.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5189.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
秉持賴清德要把權力抓在手上我高興給你多少我就給你多少高興給多一點就可以多一點不高興給少一點就這樣子壓霸極權黃幣的思想莫此為勝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5197.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5197.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
謝謝賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5227.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5230.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5247.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5261.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
陳詹惠然後我們莊部長還有各位長官還有學術同僚在座各位女士先生大家早我很快的就我的想大概說明的幾個主題因為是下一個大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5262.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5262.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5286.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5313.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
蠻大的那個變動但其實財化法的修法它本身應該是要反映國內的那個地方跟中央分權的那個狀態所以我這個地方也列了幾個幾個基本上財化法要修大概基本上這幾個大概都會要去談像礦區稅早就不在了因為我們後來有一個礦業法的修正但是財化法裡面還是把礦區稅放在那裡面但我們有一些稅是沒有放在裡面像 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5314.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5341.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
特銷稅就是特種貨物及勞務稅條例跟那個房地利稅是因為我們現在把它放在所得稅裡面所以它看起來沒有特別的一個閒幕但特銷稅基本上修法我們民國103年修的時候基本上就沒有把它放進去所以它就沒有劃到那個中央跟地方的財稅劃分體系裡面去然後其實我6月份的第一次公聽會的時候我有參加那我那時候看大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5342.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5369.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
會場大概主要的關注議題包括我們立當政府也其實也派了很多同仁來都會希望自己能夠把自己在統籌分配稅款裡面的分配比例拉高這一點無可厚非因為大家都希望自己能執政底下能夠有多一點的錢可以用不過是這樣就是說統籌分配稅款其實只是我們財政法其中一個問題而已它其實我們當然政治上可以聚焦在這上面可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5369.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5398.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為我們是立法院的財委會我們要修法你可能要把整個稍微角度拉高一點這個是第一個那我在上一次六月份的時候其實有講過一件事情因為我大概那時候就主要談了focus重點就是說其實財化它本身不是單獨的它是跟地方制度裡面你地方要做哪些事情簡單來講就是地方要做事一定要有事務權然後要有人事權然後財政是support這兩個因為做事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5399.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5402.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
財政本質上就是去support地方知事團體要做的事跟他執行這些事務的公務員的相關的費用這不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5415.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5441.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
巧婦難迴無米之炊那正是基於這個看法所以我們接下來才劃了劃分其實是要去去支應這一件事情那這個地方講地方自治受憲法保障制度這個我想因為這是純粹法律上的觀點我就帶過去就好地方自治簡單來講就是不管我們的憲法本我們的徵修憲法徵修條文跟大法官解釋都說地方自治是一個應該保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5442.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5443.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
財政劃分和財政調整或講財政平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5472.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5473.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5502.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5528.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
先把它拉出來你跟中央 因為其實有些是中央要做的事情比如說外交、國防 這個都沒辦法嘛像外交、國防、司法、閉制這些都是憲法上本來就是給國家的權限那地方做了很多事情其實很大程度上也會跟中央有重疊比如說你說治安這件事情治安當然其實有中央的整個比如說它的警政署或內政部所想要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5528.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5556.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
當然還是有地方自治團體他本身的警察啦必須要去做一些相關的治安的東西所以我們是這樣講就是說你先把中央跟總體地方做一個第一次劃分叫垂直劃分然後接下來才是第一次的水平劃分就是這個時候才開始劃分那個我們同樣是地方自治團體那臺北市跟新北市、桃園市怎麼分這個問題那這個是第一次水平劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5557.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5580.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
財政調整制度是在講因為第一次劃分總是一個法馬天秤上可能會對部分的地方自治團體是不利的比如說我只是舉個例子南投縣或澎湖縣可能是因為地儲的條件的關係它的條件就是你這樣第一次劃分以後它在總體裡面是放到 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5581.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5597.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
地方總體裡面但他在做第一次水平劃分的時候他不像台北市或我們的直轄市他有那麼強的經濟上的能力但是他幅員也很大他的幅員導致他第一次分的時候不管是垂直或跟水平劃分以後他是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5600.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5618.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
財政調整制度 包括統籌分配稅款以及我們制度上還有一個叫中央補助款是一般型補助款 它是透過那個部分你要把它一併拉進來來去做整體考量才對因為這個其實我們地方的自有財源其實在編預算的時候 這兩塊都是算進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5621.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5639.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
第二次垂直劃分就是中央如何透過因為你在第一次劃分的時候他可能初出的那個劃分是不就不夠精細嘛這一定的那要精細接下來就是才要去透過第二次的垂直劃分乃至於第二次的水平劃分我們講就是地方自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5639.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5654.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
自己決定說我比如說我台北市我補助新北市或者舉例啦台北市補助新北市比如說我的垃圾分化爐我不想設在台北市假設啦那我希望我當然只能放在新北市或是搞不好我要放到宜蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5654.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5679.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那這個時候我有一些任務我要完成那我就請你幫我做這個事情因為可能在我自己境內我做這個事情我有一些民意上考量當然也不是說宜蘭縣或是新北市就不適合做這個事這個其實就是一個任務上的分配跟你要去反映它相對的那個東西那我個人是想說其實我們這裡面財劃法裡面已經有一些規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5680.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5702.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
已經有的我就把它寫在這裡但沒寫的這是如果要做修法的話可以把這些基本原則先把它放進去因為這些基本原則等於是將來財政部它在具體執行這一線事務的時候或是將來立法院財委會要做這件事情的時候它有一個比較大的方向跟方針這個大的方向方針包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5703.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5724.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
財政劃分,你第一次水平跟垂直劃分,你要根據事權去劃分,因為那個地方我自己留得啦,他大概是abgab abgab跟inam就是事務,事務決定你的支出,然後你的支出你的收入要去對應,其實在座有一些會計,會計同仁都很清楚,那個成本分要去對應 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5726.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5727.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
財政調整包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5757.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5783.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
從頭分配稅款跟一般型的補助款那其實特別要講一下那個特別統籌分配稅款其實它不是它其實是為了緊急的那個特別財政需要像那個南投921大地震的時候它不是遭受很大財政傷害損失或是今年4月份花蓮縣那個那這個時候它會有財政傷害困難特別統籌分配稅款是為了這一種特殊緊急狀態去做的它基本上不是平常在動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5784.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5810.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
普通總合分費稅項加一般型補助款它才是拿來做我們一般在做財政調整政策上的一個正確的工具雖然其實學理上補助款不應該放在這裡面因為補助款它本身就有計劃性、針對性那我們的補助辦法裡面其實有一個叫計劃型補助款那一般型補助款我們實務的操作目前是把它當作是某種程度上是財政調整制度而一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5810.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5837.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那我最後就講這件事情就是其實這個事情是蠻重要的是我們要提出一個版本的時候你要把地方自治團體所有的考量因素透過一個叫基本財政需要跟基準財政能力然後你去算那個基本財政收支短差短差的意思就是我能力收到的不足以反映我的需要因為我執行事務我需要這些錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5838.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5838.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5856.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5856.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
財政負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5876.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5876.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5898.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5924.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
你不管你住南投住澎湖住台北市其實理應要享有同樣的公共服務水準這個是我們最大的理念是在這個建立在這個前提底下那其他因為時間緣故我就不太多說最後面考量就是你地方其實也要自己有財政努力啦因為講白一點我們有些地方稅跟地方自治稅金可以收不收這個要考慮啦我講說大方向大致上是這幾個方向那我報告就到這裡謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5926.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5940.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
非常謝謝柯教授 謝謝接著我們請財政法人國家政治研究基金會的周信佑周研究員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5945.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5973.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
主席、部長、委員還有各位先進大家好首先我們談到財化法其實首先我們要呼籲財化法一定要盡快修因為它已經有25年沒有修了在過去的話在京省之前是6比4後來變成7比3甚至75比25但是這並不是說中央真的拿了那麼多因為很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5976.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6002.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
包括很多的錢權其實是中央在處理的所以他其實並沒有說真的失衡到這個地步但是以地方自治來講應該要把權和錢事權都要盡量的下放到地方因為這樣才是符合地方自治所以我們在希望首先在垂直的翻配上應該要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6004.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6009.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
在根據我們的預算的那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6010.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6039.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
大概我們那時候是精算是希望根據我們的稅收的9%增加9%也就是3208億能下放給地方這是在垂直方面然後有一些中央本來負擔的一些事務也可以把它下放到地方那這樣其實中央並沒有損失到這麼多的錢然後第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6040.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6058.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
在水平分配方面我們希望他能用一個簡單和一個明確的公式能入法因為這樣的話讓各個縣市都能明確的知道我可以大概估算到多少然後我們希望以眾理導 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6061.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6061.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6079.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6097.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟國家政策基金會在之前有跟16個縣市曾經開會做一些討論然後事後也有跟一些縣市取得的一些共識和所以我們在分配上我們是希望所得稅的部分由10%變成11%然後營業稅的話由40%變成100%然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6104.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6121.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
在菸酒稅方面能讓離島的金門和馬祖可以直接得到了八成的菸酒稅的分成這部分是我們覺得這部分的話可以讓落實到眾離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6123.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6148.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
再加上相信財政部其實最近也跟很多縣市有一些共識包括了土地面積營業額然後所謂的農業人口工業人口的還有財政努力還有非稅客收入的部分其實這些權重我們都可以給一定的權重然後讓各個縣市在以 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6149.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6149.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6173.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6173.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
李坤誠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6198.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6223.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好,謝謝主席,謝謝所有今天的與會學者專家還有包含我們財政部主席處還有各縣市的財政處的負責人然後今天討論財化法的修法,今天辦這個公聽會我覺得辦公聽會是好的,多討論也是好的那因為現在送到我們財政委員會要討論的財化法的版本高達20個 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6225.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6251.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
高達20個所以大家對於這個財務法有很多的一些不同的一些意見而且呢這個20個版本呢是關於這個中央統籌分配款的增列金額有從300多億到5700多億那這個金額也相差的非常的懸殊那可見呢這個連提版本的不管是國民黨民眾黨或是各個委員其實也都沒有共識那金額差的也是非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6252.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6253.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6268.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6268.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6284.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6285.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6303.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6304.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
立法院第1次公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6319.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6346.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
按照目前國民黨所提出來的版本按照他們的數字因為他們是把營業稅扣掉統一發票獎金之後全部我們現在營業稅是40%他現在是100%扣掉統一發票然後所得稅是從10%增加到25%然後貨物稅10%如果按照國民黨的版本這個統籌分配款的金額會突破上兆會突破一兆元 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6347.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6375.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那我就想請問一下當然這個很多縣市局處的財政局的都在這邊想請問一下就是說這個統籌分配款上照增加到這麼多地方政府有準備好了嗎地方政府有準備好要做什麼嗎那其實在新北市議會也有民進黨的議員也問過侯友宜市長那如果多了這麼多的統籌分配款要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6376.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6376.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6401.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6404.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
文字館﹑其他不必要的設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6415.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6443.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
會不會會有一些不必要的一些文職管一些設施出來我覺得這個大家也要去討論一下啦那所以說我們在討論如何把這個餅做大那其實呢也要去檢討就是說這個地方政府你有錢有增加了那你的責任有沒有跟著調整那所以說落實財政的自主我認為修這個財化法你必須把地制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6444.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6445.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6465.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6478.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
財化法就是像我講的它就是像地質法的財政的面向所以你必須要把兩個法一起來做配套的修改然後才有辦法讓整個財化法修法更為完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6482.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6482.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
臺灣整體發展的未來並不是最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6513.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6534.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
謝謝我們李坤城委員之前本席在內政委員會擔任召委的時候我們的這個總統副總統群體辦公正群體辦的版本超過20幾個應該有80幾個還是順利修訂完成所以本席的目標不是送出委員會是本會期立法完成謝謝接著我們請武大開武教授謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6543.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6552.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那主席還有各位先進大家好那我是逢老大學會計系的伍大開那很高興有機會在這邊分享一些關於財政收支劃分法的一些想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6553.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6575.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那首先我們看一下這個是我整理出來2023年的直轄市以外就是一般的縣市非直轄市縣市他們的這個稅務的結構那我們會發現到說其實大概地方政府有大概20%的稅務的來源是來自於自籌財源那大概24%是來自於統籌分配稅款那剩下大概五成左右是來自於這個補助及協助收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6575.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6602.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以我們可以看得出來說其實地方政府他們相當的這個仰賴中央政府的這個補助及協助相關的收入那這樣子的一個財政的背景也帶出了這一次的財劃法的一個修正的相關討論那修法的草案主要內容雖然目前有很多個版本但其實主要的我們可以簡化成大概有以下兩點那首先第一點的部分就是我們想要去擴大這個中央統籌分配稅款的一個規模也就是說我們要把這個餅做大 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6603.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6604.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
分配方式 要如何分配大餅 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6623.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6650.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好那關於這一次的這個修法的一些相關討論那我有以下的一些建議就是供各位先進參考那首先第一個就是收入跟支出其實我們都知道它是一體兩面的一個事情所以當我們想要去修正收入的一些相關的修法的時候那其實支出的部分這個權責劃分的部分其實應該要一併在這個修法中一併去做討論這樣那因為這個地方政府在這次的修法他們拿到的這個統籌分配稅款應該預期是會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6652.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6670.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那所以這個地方政府的支出責任應該也要一併的去做一併去做調整這樣但是我認為說這個地方政府支出責任的這個提升的幅度其實還是有一個可以討論的空間那我認為說這個提升的幅度啊其實我們應該還是要小於這個統籌分配稅款增加的一個幅度 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6670.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6671.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6702.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6703.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6723.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6744.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
做到一個公平這樣子的一個結果那其實功能是有一點重複的那既然如此在這次在這次修法之中我們是不是應該讓統籌分配稅管可以脫離了這個公平面的一個討論讓這個一般性補助管就回歸到他本身肩負的這個公平的一個責任然後讓統籌分配稅管有其他的一些分配上的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6746.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6751.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
第三,提升地方政府財政努力的誘因,將財政努力的指標列入統籌分配稅款的計算公式,建立一個多面向的財政努力指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6768.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6782.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
然後將這個指標把它放在我們統籌分配稅款的分配裡面那這樣子地方政府它就會有誘因想要去藉由多增加自己的努力然後來強化自己的財政努力然後去爭取更多的統籌分配稅款 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6783.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6806.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那一般補助款中 因為目前一般補助款它其實已經有一些關於財政績效的一些評分的一些標準跟一些就是考量的部分那就像剛剛說的 如果今天我們想要讓統籌分配稅款它是一個比較偏向效率的 比較偏向財政努力的話那一般補助款的關於財政績效的部分其實都應該要一併的把它整併到我們的統籌分配稅款裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6808.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6831.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那再來第4個就是關於這個統籌分配稅款還有補助款的一個分配辦法那其實在之前以往關於這個統籌分配稅款跟補助款的分配公式那其實一直都有被就是有一些人有認為說他的公式可能有點太複雜了他可能相對來講比較沒有那麼透明所以我會認為說既然就是在這次難得有一個修法的一個機會的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6832.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6833.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
立法院第1次公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6854.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6858.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
統籌分配稅管和補助管的公式分配所採用的參數可能隨著時代變遷需要重新檢討或修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6869.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6870.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6892.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6913.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我相信在政府還有專家學者的努力之下,我們可以讓分配稅款的公式一直符合時代的需求以上部分是我的報告,謝謝謝謝吳教授,謝謝你接著我們請台北商業大學的羅石萬羅教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6921.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6921.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6929.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6957.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席各位先進各位委員還有在座各位朋友大家好很榮幸能夠有這個參加公聽會表達我對財務法修正的建議的一些想法提供給大家參考財務法基本上問題就這三個一個就是錢不夠多再來就是怎麼去分再來是分了以後那個資金的效率使用所以他最主要就這三個問題我就很明在講那我們這三個問題第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6959.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6987.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
它補助款跟統籌款兩個重疊換句話說一個是主計總助管的一個是財政部管的那分配的方法公式都各有不同所以我覺得在規模不足的部分第一個應該要先把統籌款跟補助款應該要先合第二個就是錢不夠所謂錢不夠就是說因為每一年地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6988.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7016.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
有16 像我昨天查一下有16個地方政府都是債務疑惡阿這是有關規模不足的問題阿第二個有關他分配方式分配方式因為他有分三層第一層就是先分6%、94%第二層在94%裡面又再分成61.76%、24%、8.24%所以這是有關他分配比例有一點武斷不公平阿再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7017.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7036.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
指甲式的六都跟非指甲式的16縣市分配方式也不一樣這也是常常有爭議的這是第二個問題第三個問題就是有關資金的使用效率你錢給了他以後他到底怎麼用你到底怎麼去考核他幾乎大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7037.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7059.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
沒有太多的獎勵大部分都是懲罰的 換句話說誘因可能會不足這是有關我們目前才有這三個大問題那我覺得在講說建議怎麼樣修法第一個就先把一般性補助款一般性補助款大概一年齁我算的數字是以111跟112這兩年平均來算的話大概2050億有2050億然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7068.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7090.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
把一般補助款直接就併入統籌分配稅款了省得兩套分配方式而且是一個財政部款一個是主計總數款這是第一個我的建議就把補助款併進去至於統籌分配稅款的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7092.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7121.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我建議把特別統籌百分之六把它降下來降到百分之二就好了那下面這些建議可能跟各位先進所提的類似就業稅百分之百都歸到統籌款裡面這大概進了有五千兩百億那所需稅跟貨物稅還是維持百分之十那所需稅、貨物稅維持百分之十所需稅大概一千七百五十億貨物稅大概一百六十億所以如果維持的話它大概有一千九百一十億 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7122.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7147.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那土增稅的部分就匯掉不要再讓它入統籌了這樣子大概可以增加3000億這樣可以大概增加3000億如果把土增稅匯掉直接歸入各地方先知政委的話大概有50億所以光這個規模擴大我認為就可以有3050億左右那這個是有關那個規模擴大的稅額的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7148.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7149.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
稅收分層 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7155.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7178.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就把它改一下中央只拿40%地方拿60%這樣子大概可以拿地方可以拿到270億那菸酒稅維持不變大概是85億我這個數字大概都是以111跟112年這兩年平均算的那我建議新增營所稅當成稅收分層換句話說地方政府要是好好的經營它的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7180.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7206.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
稅收可以留到地方增進他們的效力所以光這個稅收分層這樣的改革大概有530億所以包括剛剛的調整就是上一頁、這一頁的調整擴大規模跟下一頁的這個稅收分層530億這樣總共加起來大概3500、3600我也算了一下最近這兩年我們中央的稅路跟稅數大概是3.6兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7209.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7227.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那平均有關地方跟中央中央大概稅率有75%地方才25%那相反的稅出的部分中央65%少了10%那地方的稅出大概35%換句話說稅率稅出地方大概差10%那3.6兆10%大概就3600億大概我剛剛規劃這個應該差不多可以擬平這是有關規模擴大的那接著 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7239.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7239.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7261.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7288.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
財化法第4條的護表1護表2都要跟著改地制法裡面有關地方自治事項都要跟著改換句話說錢責要相對應剛剛我有聽到一些先進講你收入支出要一起改不是光只拿錢你拿了錢就要做事啊所以要改的時候這個分配方法要算它的分配規則的時候收支錢責要相對應 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7290.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7318.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那當然在考慮這種東西的時候可能是最麻煩的因為光財源的部分是中央給中央同意就好了但這分配是牽扯到22個地方政府可能意見很多所以這個部分可能相對比較麻煩換句話說你在分配的時候可能要考慮有各地方一致性的公共服務而且要考慮不同地方特殊性的公共服務所以這個部分的訂定可能相對來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7319.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7319.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7334.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7362.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
各地方政府參與因為各地方有他的特殊的金色條件跟他的財政能力各有不同所以讓這些地方政府也能夠參與的話可能在設計像剛剛講的那個基準財政收支那個可能規劃的就會比較好一點換句話說共識程度就會比較高比較容易能夠達成這是有關分配的部分最後第三個問題就有關績效的部分就怎麼提升他們的效力因為現行有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7363.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7377.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
草案法、財政紀律法、地方自治法其實都有規定對統籌款跟補助款使用的監督考核但大部分的監督考核都牽扯到 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7378.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7378.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
謝謝羅教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7409.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7410.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
郭文貴議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7422.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7450.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
謝謝主席我們現場的所有的官員還有學者專家本期對於這個主席在排這一次的公聽會的用心表於肯定但是在上一次的公聽會當中跟這一次的公聽會主題比較類似一種延續性的但是也有重複性因為上次在討論公聽會的時候就如同剛剛的幾位學者專家所提到的我們只是希望說收支一併考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7452.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7474.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
市權跟財權能夠同步的檢討在機制上或許會比較能夠完整的呈現說地方財政的實質面況其實在討論財政收支劃分法的同時當中其實我覺得要先去釐清幾個問題點第一個面向是說到底台灣的財政體制當中是要採取單一的體制還是聯邦的體制如果過度的強調所謂的地方財政的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7479.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7479.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7501.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7527.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
所以單一體制跟整個聯邦體制優先要思考第二個部分當然就是還是我剛剛提到有關事權跟財權的部分的面向要如何去做同步的一個調整確實如同剛剛羅教授所提的這確實是比較複雜但同時也是我們要去面對的問題那第三個部分我們要去思考回應的是想一想整個地方政府長期以來他的自主能力跟依賴能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7528.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7543.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
自有財源的比例到底多少依賴靠中央的比例到底多少那是逐漸攀升還是逐漸下滑那為何造成這樣的結果那是不是我們在修法的同時是強化了它的依賴性還是要強化了它的自主性 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7544.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7567.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
強化了他依賴性的地方財政是對地方政府比較好還是討好的地方政府或者是強化了他自主性的比較好是對方政府的財政的一個能力真正的提升是比較好的方式還是真的要去思考說只是給錢了事然後從制度面來做這樣的類似民粹性的一個修法這確實是身為立法委員還有包括本委員會應該是共同思考的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7568.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7589.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
本席認為這修法的部分你看看就如同剛剛我一開場所講的從1999年到2024這段時間長達25年的時間我們的財法法都沒有修改可是同時變進了一個地方制度法地方制度法的修改比如說從2度變6度就變化非常之大 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7591.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7611.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個部分有沒有隨之調整我們必須說非常相對的有限就如同剛剛幾位學員所講的這有兩面性的問題第一次法其實是財劃法的執行面財劃法其實是第一次法的財政面所以做一體兩面的問題我們要去怎麼去面對這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7613.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7637.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
在這次在野黨的版本當中一直著重於這個比例上的問題75到25可是我們必須想了整個新興的計畫當中的發動是誰有發動當然是中央政府在省在廢省或者是動省的這個過程當中的整個財政權的移轉過程當中也有隨之移轉的部分是事權的移轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7639.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7647.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
包括老農今天的部分、老健保的補助部分、國立高中職的部分這個部分卻也是事實但我們同時也要去面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7649.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7665.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
如果就審計部的這個報告當中我們看到就我剛剛說自主力自主能力跟依賴能力的部分的話以照112年全國的這個平均來看的話是這個地方自籌財源的部分自主力的部分大概只有37.48% |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7669.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7689.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
有13個縣市是低於25%甚至不足以支應人事費用的這種情況底下我們看到地方的情況底下他的自主能力其實是下滑了為何如此因為地方政府主要的這個稅基的來源來自於什麼來自於不動產相關的房屋稅、地價稅跟土生稅只要這一棟 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7691.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7703.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我想啊所有的這個政治效應都會出現所以以至於呢很多縣市首長其實不敢動那第二部分呢在國稅的部分的成長度呢相對於整個地方稅的成長度是非常之高以這一個25年來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7706.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7711.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
整個這個地方稅的7項主要地方稅從2520億調整到112年去年的部分326億不過是成長28.49項的國稅當中是1兆523億變成3兆660億成長了高達191%之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7724.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7743.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以現在思考回來了我其實還是要呼籲財政部思考一個問題整個地方稅法通則的鬆綁真的要去面對所有地方政府能不能科期稅的部分都要看財政部的認定以至於他只能在能源上 砂石上 天然資源上來做琢磨而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7744.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7769.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這只是單點的科稅作為標的而已所以在比較於其他的國家來說我們這個部分實在是限制過大以至於你值得非常地重怪不得大家天天要跟你要錢的原因是在這邊那最後的部分我再做一些財政法的 財法法修正的一些建議我是認為過去整個直轄市縣市鄉鎮市三套的公司實在過於複雜應該整合成一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7770.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7771.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
財政事務部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7790.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7805.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這一個用垂直的分配來解決現在地方政府地方財政的問題而要考慮到水平分配的問題這是非常關鍵的重要點我想時間上的關係我就不再陳述太多我重點意見表述如上請各位參考 謝謝謝謝郭委員 謝謝接著我們請王煌威 王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7827.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7827.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案公聽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7851.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7874.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
在這個部分事實上在上個會期財劃法包含有很多的版本已經送進立法院了然後我們也召開了公聽會而且也進入了審查我們在進入實質審查的時候其實當時邀請了所有的縣市代表有的是副市長陳琦自己親自參加有一些是局長陳琦 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7875.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7894.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
然後所有縣市事實上是不分黨派的縣市幾乎都表達了希望能夠修正財劃法因為大家都知道財劃法已經長達四分之一個世紀都沒有修正而在這段時間裡面整個的經濟的變化整個社會的結構出現了這麼多的改變但是呢我們財劃法不動如山 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7903.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7903.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
財政部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7919.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7933.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
有這麼多的版本,而且我們也發現很多的,即便是執政黨的委員也提到了財化法修正的一些必要性更不要說各縣市也有這樣的迫切性可是到了這個會期,我們的財政部竟然告訴我們不用修法這是非常遺憾,而且我也覺得這是非常怠惰的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7943.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7943.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
公聽會 報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7972.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7977.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
一張大小這裏面內政部完全沒有提及應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7980.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8009.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
一起來修正地方制度法所以我必須說啦這樣的把地方制度法的牽扯下來恐怕是一個希望能夠阻擋這個才化法的修法可是你看內政部根本也不在乎我相信搞不好他們也都沒有在仔細看那是一個公式的這個反應裡面完全沒有提到應該並同修正地方制度法這個是我想今天在公聽會可以確定這一點那另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8010.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8031.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有提到就說沒有錯在這個過程裡面我們從兩都變成六都也就是因為這樣啊因為從兩都最後增加到六都之後真的有很多非六都的縣市他們的資源財政資源真的被大幅的排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8032.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8050.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以他們更有這樣的一個緊迫性需要性來修正財劃法我想先把上述應該儘速來修正財劃法也就是我要呼應一下我們昭偉他的一個想法來跟大家做討論好我們講到這個財劃法的部分為什麼這麼需要來趕快做一個調整因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8060.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8077.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們地方如果他們財政無法自主他們的財政一直在仰賴中央給他的統籌款或者是補助款而使得我們地方真的難以自治所以在講說地方自治某一個程度也是說假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8078.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8085.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我在這邊提供一個數字也就是我們最近10年國稅的成長率達到104%但是我們地方稅的成長率只有13%而我們全國稅收的比例國稅的部分達到90%地方稅的部分10% |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8100.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8117.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以大家就可以知道在線下的我們的一個地方財政的這個制度跟地方財政的結構他是一個中央集錢集錢當然就集權所以這個結構是如此的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8118.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8141.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
另外我們也可以看到不管是主計處或財政部都告訴你沒有沒有地方財政沒有你們講的這麼差因為呢我們都有統籌款啊我們都有這個補助款啊那也跟大家報告最近大家不再講什麼退回總預算的部分我想對預算稍有一些了解的都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8142.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8164.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
有關於預算的執行只要你是在上一年度已經有執行的在下一年度即便是沒有 立法院沒有通過預算它仍然應該要執行 仍然可以執行那它相差的部分是在哪裡呢就是新增加的 新增跟新興的計劃沒有錯 所以現在就拿這個所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8169.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8169.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那我要跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8181.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8198.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
軍公教不管是113年度的調薪或114年度的調薪都是地方在支出地方議會在審核其實我已經問了好多的地方的財政局長他說因為他們也把預算編到這個地方的議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8199.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8203.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
只要地方議會的他們通過一樣加薪的部分他們會照發沒有影響但是我在這邊也要跟大家講就是這樣的一個中央請客地方買單每一年都有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8217.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8224.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
不是只有一年每一年都有所以地方財政好一點的就繼續的幫中央來付錢差一點的只好拜託中央能不能來補助我們這就是我們現行的地方財政的一個現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8236.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8265.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以如果在我們一直在講說沒問題啊我們再補助給他們但是我們都沒有去算一算中央到底有多少的請客然後支票最後是由地方來買單的所以我們一直在講所謂的補助款好像我們給地方一些favor實則不然因為對不起我的時間到了本來應該可以談很多的但是呢還是要多聽聽我們專家學者的意見謝謝大家謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8267.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8268.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
黃耀輝,台北商業大學黃教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8291.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8311.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
主席 各位與會的先進大家早安很榮幸受邀第二次參加這個財化法的公聽會我六月份的時候就表達過我用一些數據講這個過去的這個財化法修正的大歷史麻煩幫我翻到下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8312.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8313.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8336.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8338.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
國稅地方稅112年度地方政府家總地方稅總稅收4千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8356.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8356.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8373.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8376.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
中央行政院主計總署各級政府進收支表 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8388.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8389.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8411.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8412.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
在廢審之前,中央政府收入近的佔比不到6成,57% |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8425.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8444.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
結果一廢審一修憲之後 中央政府收入的佔比突然暴增到74% 75%所以中央政府收入佔比就造成我們現在財政失衡是最嚴重是我們財務法修正造成的最大問題我們再看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8446.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8469.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個中央佔比一直高達七成多一直到113年度的預算中央佔比高達75%可能有人會想財政部可能會想說那如果將來你要我把這個統中分稅款的餅做大我做到多出一點錢我就砍你的補助款我提醒財政委員會或立院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8471.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8474.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8488.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8489.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
中央佔比還高達75% |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8509.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8527.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個修法的重點很清楚,就是把同層分位稅款做大,不能減少補助款,請再翻回第一頁所以這25年來,中央多拿了10兆,佔比更集權,地方財政就惡化,地方政治就倒退 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8528.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8528.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8544.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8545.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
財政部財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8569.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8569.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8585.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8609.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
把這個統政分支法餅做大之後呢分配公視都很好談為什麼因為現在就是地方政府錢不夠啊生吃都不夠拿來曬乾錢都不夠那地方政府當然就炒來炒去啊中央政府就利用你地方政府炒來炒去沒有共識然後就不修財化法所以呢我覺得很簡單就是把這個餅做大之後呢分配公視小事一樁啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8609.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8617.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
因為地方支付錢都夠了 六都的錢也很夠了 十六縣的錢都很夠了要分配都很好談 六都都很嚴厲讓給其他縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8622.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8623.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
財政部6月5日公聽會擴大統籌分配稅規模方向規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8642.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8648.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
上次公聽會前的一場地方縣市的初審會議,除了屏東縣政府沒出席,台南市、高雄市因為立場尷尬,因為黨意要遵從,其實很高興 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8665.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8667.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8696.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8700.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
財政部本會期開議前提出財化法修正草案結果財政部在8、9月初召集22縣市來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8711.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8713.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8728.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8752.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
然後講說求快貿然通過將會造成更大制宜這個意圖明顯境界不高嘛就擺明就是不要再修嘛就是打算30年都不要修彩畫法了那卓院長當然就聽莊部長的話說現在沒辦法得出大家能夠接受的方式這是水平分配的問題啦這個沒辦法解決不修啦所以你看到這個財政部立場是很值得檢討來再看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8758.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8772.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
財政部提出事是而非的說法財政部說:「過去財法法五次修法都沒有完成,因為共識難以形成,所以分配機制要力求完善。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8773.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8798.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
如果求快貿然通過：大幅式租財源為顧及水平跟被合理性自私亦分擴大是一字莫名其妙的說法我一一反駁我們看下一頁我的看法是這樣子財化法25年沒有修現在修法怎麼叫求快貿然25年你財政部有25年時間一直都不提不予不修故意讓他不修他還現在叫做什麼求快貿然然後這次財務你把 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8802.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8811.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
中央不肯把柄做大分配公司讓地方互打當然就沒有共識所以這次就是故計重施財政部也承認在6月份公聽會的書面報告10個縣市把他轄區內的國稅全部分給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8817.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8844.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
也不夠讓他說出的需要啦所以呢請問財政部如果你不把垂直分配這個把柄做大你怎麼解決這10個縣市啊告訴地方政府去水平物捐那邊去分配可以解決嗎當然不行嘛財政部都知道啊怎麼可以不把中央的錢拿分下來呢把柄做大是地方政府最大的公視這是無庸置疑的把柄做大啦分配公視就很簡單很好定我們再來看怎麼好定我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8845.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8868.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
下一頁我們就看以國民黨的版本為例他把餅做大提高地方自主113年度預算為例公示非常簡單又能夠調劑延續第一個人人平等按照憲法人人平等把統籌分配餅做大之後60幾百人按人口數分配新北市會分到最多因為他人口400萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8869.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8870.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
新北市公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8887.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8904.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
有錢的哥哥姊姊都分給窮的弟弟妹妹保障人口少的縣市、離島、農業縣市、偏遠地區的縣市或農業縣市人口比較少我們就給他保障,不要全部都被人口多的佔盡便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8905.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8906.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
從這邊各位有沒有看到你把這個做大之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8932.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8934.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
財政努力、綠色能源、莫名其妙的分配指標根本是來亂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8947.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8962.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以你看到國運版的那個版本它就是超黨派的就增加比例來講限制增加最多然後每個限制都增加了很多6度增加了不到一倍所以16限制增加最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8962.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8964.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
新北市人口最多,每人最少 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8980.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8990.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
但是新北市政府願意接受,這告訴我們什麼?就是你把柄做大之後,地方政府的分配都好談,那最後結果就是什麼?六度的佔比從現在的同州分數的62%降到不到50%,十六縣市從現在不到24%增加到41% |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8996.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9018.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以地方財政就是和樂融融啊這為什麼和樂而不為呢我們再來看下一頁所以財政部第二個說法說如果中央釋出財源卻沒同時檢討釋權劃分會造成地方支出腐爛影響財政距離我要講的是事實剛好相反是我們中央政府支出腐爛再敗壞財政距離怎麼說我們看下一頁那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9022.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9037.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
市權劃分不是財政部說了算也不是地方政府想要幹什麼就幹什麼是我們憲法107條規定很清楚像國防、外交、社外的事務包括國稅、省稅、縣稅的劃分這是中央極權的一個權利把漏多的劃分給中央這個中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9046.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9064.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
立法執行的事情就佔盡了優勢有沒有因為上次修憲之後我中央的事情就多錢沒有啊,憲法規定你要做國防外交這些社外事務嘛全國一致的事務嘛那哪有因為上次88年修憲之後就增加你中央政府的私權 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9065.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9093.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
你事情做變多了,錢就要花得更多沒有啊,我們再看下一頁在111條,我們憲法有一個剩餘依全的分配除了剛才講的那個,如果有未列舉事情呢發生的時候,有全國一致的性質本來就是你中央該做的啊那有各省一致的性質,那就省啊各縣一致的性質就屬於縣啊那有爭議的時候,由立法院解決所以我這邊要問財政部的是說你講那麼多,說哎呀,事前要劃分要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9095.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9097.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
財政部說:「給地方這麼多錢,支出會腐爛,地方財政紀律就敗壞。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9119.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9141.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
中央政府的事權從修憲以前到現在都沒有增加過反而是自己支出腐爛違背財政紀律我們看一個很簡單的事實蔡政府過去8年內稅收超徵了1.8兆結果編列多少?2.57兆的特別預算超收就超花嘛誰在亂花錢?是中央啊我們再看下一頁我們再看敗壞財政紀律 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9146.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9163.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
過去幾年 撥補勞保 勞保不改革按照社會保險 財務就要知己知足啊你在保險體系 你就 剛那個保費收得不高 你就該調啊不敢改革 結果呢 就一直撥補撥補就中央政府稅收太多了 錢太多了好 就撥補啊 現在撥補勞保呢 已經編列3771億 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9167.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9190.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
地方政府有這種本事嗎這個3771啊相繼這地方政府一年的稅收全部的稅收欸中央就隨便一撥老闆不敢改革就撥補那台電能源政策錯誤違反使用者付費也不敢調漲電費然後呢已經撥補了3000億今年還追加預算1000億明年又編列1000億撥補總共要撥補5000億啊這個錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9195.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9216.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這個錢啊你財政部收稅收得那麼辛苦你為什麼不叫勞動部去改革勞保你為什麼不叫台電去建議中央調整你錯誤的能源政策為什麼要我們納稅人來補填你台電補補你的勞保破壞財政距離是你財政部啊中央啊我們再看下一頁所以我們觀察過去這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9219.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9238.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
蔡政府到賴政府元年,我們來看,中央就是錢多多花多多,105年中央稅率還不到2兆,稅數內也快將近2兆,結果到113年度,現在這個年度,稅率就暴增到2.73兆,稅數2.85兆,你看這8年內成長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9243.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9269.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
平均每年成長率6%請問地方政府有辦法每年稅收編列成長率這麼高很可憐每年幾乎都是一點點的成長再來看下一頁我們再來看今年下一年度的110年度因為我把它叫做賴清德總統的元年的預算可以看到這個你會嚇死114年度稅率是多少你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9271.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9284.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
突破3兆,3兆1000多億,剛剛我講的105年的時候,蔡英文剛上台的時候,還不到2兆現在賴清德上台編的第一個預算,收入稅務就3兆1000多億,成長率16% |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9290.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9291.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
中央多麼有錢,20% |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9307.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9327.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
今年編列預算的時候他就不願意把錢撥給我們地方政府就拚命編列中央成長20%結果呢去幹什麼事我們看下一頁稅數也是暴增增加到三兆一千多億從不到兩兆七千多億變成三兆多 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9329.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9339.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
成長率稅數呢就10%就是什麼稅率我就很樂觀的高估然後掩護我多邊的支出嘛所以支出就暴增嘛啊這個暴增呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9340.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9358.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
創下我們台灣歷史的新高級我們看到中央多麼的有錢越有錢就越愛花錢所以我們再看下一頁這樣看下來的結果就是過去9年包括蔡政府8年以及賴政府的第1年稅率成長就被拉高到71%稅數成長了57%這9年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9362.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9364.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
中央政府稅率年成長8%,稅數年成長6.3% |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9392.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9405.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
副爸媽的中央請你多把錢分出來給窮子你不要自己把它亂花掉了中央呢應該把全部政府收入喔注意喔我這邊講是全部政府收入的10%不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9407.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9413.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
中央收入的10% 到15%要還給地方政府這樣把同收分稅款的餅做大之後公司很簡單簡化、平等、照顧到貧窮的縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9426.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9433 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
主計總署的進收支表已經扣掉補助款,之後中央佔比113.6%,還到75%所以我們很擔心財政部或主計總署,因為我們把它比做大之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9449.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9476.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
就倒打一把就是拿就把同分稅款減少我們這個在立法這個財劃法的修正版本拜託拜託一定要加入這個條款這個補助款不能低於113年度這個水準這個很重要道理是因為主計總署的表已經很客觀的告訴我們真相中央是佔盡了這個稅率的便宜收入他是佔了很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9481.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9494.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
垂直平衡,過去賴清德當行政院長就說要修,上一任財政部長也承諾要修,最後是零和跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9495.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9496.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
中央集權集權之弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9511.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9532.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
國債中 今年還飆到每個人27萬 狀況歷史新高我們看到我們國防外交中央政府花的錢都是花在國外啊為什麼不把這個錢花在外國人身上的錢給我們的地方政府 用在地方自治給我們國內同胞去享用 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9534.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9546.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
財化法地方財政的目的就是讓我們國人享用我們自己辛苦繳納的稅收嘛幹嘛把這個錢給中央中央拿去給搞國防搞外交你看國防今年變的預算多少下一年度預算6400多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9548.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9549.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9579.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9607.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
負把中央請你把垂直失衡的優先解決你也承諾過所以我們建議這樣看起來現在財政部行政院根本就不想修了因為它佔盡了便宜所以建議藍白綠一定要合作不要等財政部了本會期就一起合作提出統籌分析稅款的秉座大補助款不能減少的財發法修這個部分就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9607.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9628.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
分配公司要不要我們立法委員們來擔心?不用!為什麼?財政部你這個餅做大之後,財政部有沒有公司他都非去訂,不可能,就叫他訂嘛!訂嘛!就訂嘛!錢多了你財政部怎麼訂?沒地方怎麼會去抗議啦!每一個都增加,就皆大歡喜啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9629.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9632.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
財政部可以在分配公司裡面訂一些條款說不拿還債亂花錢我們就扣減你補助款嘛那可以啊這個很合理啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9658.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9676.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
結論就是不要等財政部了請藍白立委們一定要合作一定要在這個會期通過財劃法反本因為這次不修過的話難保30年都過不了了中華民國就完蛋了我們地方政府就很可憐到底了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9678.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9703.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好 非常感謝我們黃耀輝黃教授謝謝我們這個會期是一定會修過求怪也不至於求怪大概兩三個月這個會期還有好幾個月我們一定會努力大家也知道我的別稱叫做金門坦克坦克就是遇到困難就是沒有困難好 那我們現在這個大家要有信心來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9705.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9709.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們休息5分鐘回來以後我們就請羅志祥 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9710.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9711.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
國發會：法務部依序回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9771.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9774.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9803.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9805.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
公聽會：發言委員： |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9814.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9818.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9841.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9842.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9854.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9860.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9879.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9880.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9896.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9896.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
公聽會：發言委員： |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9925.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9926.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9952.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9968.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9973.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9974.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9991.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9992.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10012.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10034.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
兩點壓力兩點壓力是不重要的沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正沒有那麼大規則可以修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10041.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10042.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10088.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10092.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們現在繼續開會有的可能如果在洗手間的沒關係我們請這個羅志強 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10106.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10118.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
主席各位先進為了符合地方自治精神本席認為應該把財政權大幅調整還給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10119.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10147.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那現行財政收支劃分法已經超過25年那現在我們應該要重新的來評量所以國民黨團主張中央和地方的財源比例應回歸地方自治精神也就是六成中央四成地方的分配方式因為現行只有25%的稅收用於支應地方的財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10147.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10167.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那麼這樣的做法其實我覺得對於地方的發展相當的不利所以應該讓中央跟地方我們一起努力的把資源分配的更妥適那麼能夠往前走一步本次修法中央要釋出5000億的經費給地方縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10169.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10198.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那在過去召開公聽會的時候我們的部長我也沒看到你有什麼特別的反對的意見那麼保持開放態度這是正確的那地方政府也對於所謂的擴大地方財源紛紛表示贊同所以立法院希望我們主張希望能夠將中央所掌控的15%的經費釋出能夠給地方的縣市政府來強化地方政府財政健全的收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10199.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10211.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
連民進黨的執政縣市、高雄跟台南派出的代表其實都不反對這樣的修法方向當然比例的調整可能各有不同的意見但修法方向基本上大家都贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10212.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10232.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
也就是希望 只是說對於未來統籌分配款對於各地方政府分配要具有所謂的比例的公平性那這一點大家會有比較多的一些意見的討論我覺得這都是好事事實上1999年因為修憲精神當時修正了《財劃法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10233.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10256.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
其結果就是讓中央集權也更集錢所以25年來中央多拿了新台幣10兆元地方就看到後果就是留給地方地方的財政不斷地惡化 入不敷出賴清德自己總統自己也是從地方首長出生我是呼籲也要來一起響應財政轉型正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10259.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10286.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
所以財化法是地方制度法的一個財政的面向兩法都應該聯動修法那把中央過去本來該屬於地方的這些稅收這些收入能夠公平的還給地方那希望我們的賴清德總統能夠去想想過去他在臺南當市長身為地方首長的時候他的一個立場跟他的一個臺南的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10287.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10316.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那當然現在中央除了將財劃法作為他今天來去對於地方政府有很多的一些坦白講就是有點可以指導的一個私房錢一樣那常常更出現中央請客地方買單的行為所以很多中央所定的政策其實常常都會變成說明知道地方財政困難還是要求地方買單那這些一方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10317.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10318.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10336.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10353.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這時候當下中央政府提供地方政府的財源大概分成三類一個是中央統籌分配款一個是一般性補助款一個是計劃性補助款但因為財化法到現在已經超過25年未修法所以也引起很多地方政府的批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10354.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10379.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以我們變成是說中央統籌分配款的方式的公平性也遭到很多的議論甚至一般性的補助款也受到很多的限制而計劃性補助款有時候就變成是看中央看地方怎麼爭取也看中央怎麼高興那最後身為台北市的立委我也希望能夠為台北市政府跟台北市民 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10379.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10380.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10400.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10427.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以中央應該擴大中央統籌分配稅款把柄做大然後釋出中央給地方的財源來減輕地方財政的壓力那臺北市有3個主張啦一個是營業稅100%回饋地方財源其中50%按各地營利事業而分配另外50%納入中央統籌分配稅款那第二是保障地方的社福教育設施的一般性補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10428.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10448.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那不得少於所得稅總數10%﹑貨物稅總收入10%﹑計數那第三不能中央請客地方買單那這部分也希望將來在我們的財劃法的修正的過程當中以及中央在思考財政的政策的過程當中可以把這個地方的新生想進來謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅志強 羅委員好接著我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10456.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10457.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
哪一位基隆市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10484.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10501.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
主席、委員、各位委員會的代表我認識基隆市政府基隆市政府我們有六大訴求第一方面本政府建議擴大中央統統分配稅的規模以提升地方財政的自主性第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10503.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10521.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
確保土著分配稅跟一般性補助款這次修法後不會低於修正施行前一年度的金額確保地方政府的財源第三建議將土地增值稅稅收全部還給直轄市政府以及縣市政府第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10523.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10549.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
統籌分配稅的公示以公示入法並且簡化公示第5 地方為了配合中央施政的項目現在是越來越多那中央也只補助第一年往後年度都要由地方自籌導致地方財政持續惡化雖然中央稱有一般性補助款 測算補助但是如果沒有基本的財政收支的差短 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10550.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10575.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
確實是沒有補助的所以本市認為中央在推行政策時應先載明經費的來源避免造成地方財政上的困難第6基隆市新竹市嘉義市三個省轄市我們在那個基本財政收支需要額的時候加上15%這個計算公式這次修法的時候應該維持省轄市額外的比例的加權計算謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10577.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10585.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好,非常好,謝謝,謝謝我們金融社的代表,接著我們請臺南市的代表,配合政策宅民預算人,好 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10593.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10612.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
主席、各位委員及先進大家好有關財政收支劃分法的修正草案台南市建議中央統籌分配稅款計算室當中營利事業營業額的涉算權重應該降低並將科學園區所在地的產值以外加權重的方式來計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10615.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10632.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
現行中央統籌分配稅款計算室中營利事業營業額涉算權重高達50%查其系以總機構稅及登記所在地計算依財政部提供的資料查得本市112年營利事業營業額較110年增加457億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10638.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10662.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
但依國家科學及技術委員會統計資料庫查得南部科學園區臺南園區112年營業額較110年增加4938億元跟財政部的統計數據差距甚距主要是因為工廠總機構沒有登記在本市致使本市的統總分配稅款沒有享受到應有的貨配金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10663.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10677.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以臺灣市建議本市積極推動工業區開發引進民間資金及產業投資提升國家生產力肩負生產工廠周邊交通環境道路水電等基礎建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10678.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10697.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
及維護、教育及社會服務的經費及責任在財政部現行設算及工業產值未獲納入共識下未來南科營業額增加只會增加其總公司登記轄區的縣市權數對本市極為不公平原建議應將營利事業營業額設算權重降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10701.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10720.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
並將科學園區所在地產值以外加權重方式計算以平衡地方政府在盈利失業額未享有應有的貨配金額以上報告敬請指教謝謝謝謝我們台南市的代表新竹的立委也有跟我提到這一點好 謝謝接著我們請金門縣政府的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10729.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10745.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
主席還有部長還有與會學者專家各位先進大家好那金門縣政府三點報告第一點感謝並請持續支持在金門縣連江縣增企菸酒稅收入減除激增費用後百分之八十分配各該縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10747.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10770.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
菸酒稅從1991年施行後造成中央稅收增加而金門縣財政短縮212億元那一直沒有依財化法第38條之一來彌補造成金門嚴重財政負擔那112年金門縣不得不停辦23項重大建設那總共超過金的100億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10771.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10788.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
行政院的修正版本以及這一次許多委員的修正版本都有把上開條文有納入請行政院及各位委員持續支持離島的建設發展第二是建立加重離島基礎建設之財源分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10790.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10808.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
本島許多縣市將軌道建設等列為發展重點但是離島有許多的基礎建設卻都還沒有完成例如金門機場與港口連接的道路只有完成三分之一新北的淡江大橋澎湖縣內灣的跨海大橋 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10813.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10830.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
它的建設跟管理費用都是中央負擔但是橋樑規模更大、工程難度及工程造價更高的金門大橋卻由金門縣負擔二分之一、將近50億元的工程經費之後的管理費用也是由金門縣負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10832.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10858.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那所以我們建議這一次修法能加重離島基礎建設之財源分配第三建議提供一定比例之財源供各縣市政府平均分配各縣市政府的基本的業務大致上是相同但只是業務量的數量不一樣建議可以比照公益採建的方式提供一定的財源供各縣市平均分配以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10860.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10877.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
好,謝謝我們陳國廷陳處長喔還有沒有其他縣市有要發表什麼意見好,如果沒有的話我們接著請這個中央的這個部會來回答第一個我們先請財政部莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10889.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10905.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
主席還有各位專家學者以及我們各地方政務代表以及各位在座的委員們大家好首先感謝陳昭偉召開今天有關財劃法的修正案的一個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10906.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10906.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
財政部對立法院和財委會的決議尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10924.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10925.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
財政部及主機總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10949.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10949.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
立法院議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10979.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10997.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
政府在這個會議中尤其是在第1次的8月的會議的時候把80幾個指標縮減為50幾個指標那在第二次會議的時候那地方政府的跟地方政府充分討論那更有進一步的一個初步的成果那當然對於支出的節流還有再生能源還有污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10997.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11000.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
在9月19財政部也提出了一份報告給立法院那在這個報告裡面我們也分析了相關的一些數據以及這幾年的一個情況那我們認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11023.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11051.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我們兩次邀集會商分配指標那地方的旗艦已經縮小但是我們認為還是要持續的一個努力所以我們未來我們還是會同本部還是會同中央和地方機關會持續的來做討論那對於後續的財劃法的修正才能夠有一個更好的一個共識那第二個部分我們其實也討論到也包含今天的專家學者也都提到的事權的劃分必須要很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11053.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11064.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這樣才能夠有力的建立合理的一個財政的一個調整的一個機制這個部分的事權劃分明確對於收入的分配機制可以減少爭議而且財劃法的話事權的劃分的影響的層面也比較廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11070.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11098.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以它的檢討作業已不是一次就可以完成的所以這個部分是很重要的另外財政收支劃分的調整是攸關到財政資源的重分配必須要審慎的規劃那麼財政收支劃分的調整它是各級政府財政資源的一個重新分配我們必須要審視中央和地方事權劃分還有近年整體財政的一個情形除了要考慮地方的財政需要之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11099.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11116.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
中央的財政也要維持一個適度的韌性才能夠因應國際政經情勢的一個變化還有氣候變遷等等的不實的需要如果只是倉促的修法一旦改變現有的一個財政秩序恐怕會是另外一個分配不均的一個開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11117.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11130.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
讓再次的調整分配會更加的困難對國家的長遠的發展還有財政制度的穩定會有不利的一個影響所以我們認為還是要做過充分的討論凝聚共識我們再來審慎的一個規劃推動其次我要說明的中央和地方其實是一個夥伴的關係是個夥伴的關係我們一直希望是一個共榮共好 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11142.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11163.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
財化法歷經25年沒有修正行政院曾經5次提出修法版本但是因為沒有共識所以修法一直沒有能夠完成但是雖然財化法沒有修正但是在中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性的補助款以及計劃性的補助款中央對地方的財政挹注事實上是一直在成長以113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11166.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11173.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
和105年來比較的話中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性的補助款其實成長達到46.7%那在114年依照現行的預算案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11181.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11203.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
預算案我們送出來的預算案中央統籌分配稅款會比114年比113年會增加696億就是接近700億而一般性的補助款更增加200億所以兩者合計增加到了900億所以中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款在114年的規模是有7240億 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11207.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11226.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
如果再加上重大計劃的一個計劃型的補助款至少每年都有2000多億所以中央對地方挹注每年的一個金額是逐年在提高而且7000多億加2000多億已經接近到兆元所以中央對地方財政挹注是一直不遺餘力 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11227.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11227.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這是以上說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11255.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11258.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
請行政院主席總措 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11276.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11289.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
主席各位先進在財化法雖然沒有修正中央能持續透過中央投資分配稅款及一般系補助款來持續協助這個數額已經從103年度的4,051億元到了114年度已經增加為7,241億元增加了3,190億元成長的幅度接近80% |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11303.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11325.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
另外如果再加上這個計劃型補助款有2900億左右那114年度我們中央屹住地方的財源就已經高達1151億元那已經大幅提升地方自治、地方自主、財政自主的部分那另外在各地方財政狀況的部分已經有顯著的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11327.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11339.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
前面學者有提到說整體地方101年度稅入稅出的次制是有589億元到105年度已經轉為剩餘有41億元112年度的剩餘已經達到648億元那22個市縣的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11349.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11349.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11372.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11398.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
在今審後,中央是有承接稅客收入大概1505億元但是也承接了相關的支出2892億元是收不抵支,就是淨減了1387億元另外中央也承接了債務也8000多億所以中央承接省府的收支並沒有獲益再來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11402.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11428.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
針對前面有提到就是說京省前後的比較問題那京省錢其實可以分為三大塊就是中央政府的收入大概佔60%左右那臺灣省政府大概佔11%那直轄市及縣市政府還有鄉鎮市這個部分大概佔了28%那京省市中央接收省府的收支 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11429.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11430.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
中央加省府 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11448.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11475.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
接受完之後現在目前就是75%左右那直轄市及縣市這個部分大概也是佔25%那支出的部分那今省錢也是分3塊中央大概佔59.2%臺灣省的部分是14%那直轄市及縣市政府的部分是大概接近27%那今省錢就是中央政府加臺灣省 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11476.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11503.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
政府﹖因為是中央接收了省府的支出嘛中央加省府的支出就是百分之七三左右那實際上是縣市政府大概百分之二十六點七那經審後我們一百一十四年度來看那這個比例中央本來是七十三的支出現在已經增為百分之七十六那地方的支出支出部分是百分之二十四、二十三點九那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11505.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11532.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
經審前後應該要同一個基礎比較所以中央並沒有說這個收入從60% 增為75%這個地方特別的聲明那如果現在說要求中央要釋出這個15%給地方那前面部長有提到基於這個錢要學於事權的移轉的原則所以相關支出應該要一臂來檢討以上報告謝謝我們主席總處 謝謝接著我們請內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11545.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11573.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
主席各位與會先進,大家好的確地方的事權與財源的分配的確有一些彼此的聯動的關係那在我們地方制度法第18條就有規定以下列事項為直轄市自治事項第19條有規定以下列事項為縣市的自治事項然後在第20條我們就有規定說下列事項是地方的這個鄉鎮市的自治事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11574.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11602.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那這些我們在第18條到第20條所定的地方知識事項都是一些原則性基本性的規定在這中間並無從得出中央與地方各項事項的權重要如何分配那中央地方各項的事權的具體分配是回歸到各個目的事業主管機關的法規裡頭那例如說地方制度法明定社會福利及環境保護為直轄市縣市及鄉鎮市 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11604.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11604.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
國發會 國家發展委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11645.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11662.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
主席與會的先進與會的各位代表跟學者專家大家午安謝謝今天國發會還是很高興這次受邀請來這邊第二次公聽會所以也感謝召委跟財委會這樣繼續的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11666.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11677.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
國財、中醫、廣納建研本會持續關注尊重各主政機關的演繹以及最後答應的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11700.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11716.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
主席、各位先進、大家好法務部這邊報告有關財政收支劃分法它說方面分有國稅跟地方稅而且又有統籌分配稅款的相關規定關係到財政收入的重分配的重大事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11718.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11719.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
法制作業提供適當而必要的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11748.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11760.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
好 謝謝法務部行政機關還有我們現場專家學長跟委員的發言都已經發言完畢有學者要做第二輪發言嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11761.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11785.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
沒有齁好那綜合齁剛剛這個這個內政部齁主席總署齁呃相關說法齁現在我們中央已經一直有提高對地方政府的補助嘛所以更證明這個如果把地方的餅做大這個財源上是沒有問題的嘛不會影響到現在你們一直在給錢嘛那因為我們國家是法治國所以我們必須把所有事情制度化 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11786.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11790.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
國際政經局勢天天在改變,我們國家還是要改革跟進步,所以我想這個也不是拒絕修法的藉口 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11809.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11828.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們立法院的這個修法列車已經啟動了那當然我們相當的尊重行政院尊重財政部不過如果你們不跟上的話我們還是會繼續往前進行那剛剛聽到這個內政部有說了內政部的報告裡頭也沒有說出需要提出這個相關地方制法的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11829.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11829.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11851.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11878.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
財政收支劃分法好好的修訂那我們還是希望財政部可以如果有機會還是提出來那如果沒提出來因為本期財政召委在下一次是兩個禮拜或10月21號那個禮拜我們就開始啟動修法的這個程序我們就開始會把委員的版本開始進行修訂那如果行政院沒有辦法在財政部行政院沒有辦法在那個時候送進來的話我們沒有辦法再等待了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11878.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11896.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
好那依照立法院自宣行使法第58條規定我們會因爲公聽會結束後10日內終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今天與會者所有的寶貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11897.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11921.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
發言的意見作為未來修法的參考我剛剛有看到好幾個縣市有提出意見然後我們會會編成社送交本院全體委員及今天初列席提供建議的貴賓參閱那如果各位貴賓不管是專家學者還是各地的財政處還有或者是我們的相關部會還有其他的書面意見或相關資料也請盡速提供給我們我們會併入這一次公聽會的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11923.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11923.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11961.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11962.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
主席 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第1次公聽會（事由：召開「財政收支劃分法修正草案」公聽會） |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 11:48:00 |
| IVOD_ID |
16145 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16145 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T11:48:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |