| IVOD_ID |
161398 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161398 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T15:11:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T15:23:18+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b37f32a40437fed36a35373469a84e2c3a701a8027e01a390eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
楊瓊瓔 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:11:25 - 15:23:18 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。
四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）
【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】） |
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| gazette.lineno |
1802 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：（15時11分）謝謝主席。首先邀請主計長跟經濟部。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：主計長、何次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：兩位好。我們今天來討論從880億變成4,100億，決策思維是什麼？財政紀律又是什麼？4,100億的特別預算，不可謂不多，但它不受預算法與公債法的相關法律規範，因此計畫跟使用都應該要特別謹慎。所以本席要請教，從4月4日宣布，到4月10日行政院邀集六都列席討論，同時4月中旬也不斷地和產業界座談，到4月21日核定公告時，我們看到的支持方案細節統統都是880億，但為什麼在4月24日行政院公布時卻暴增到4,100億？在公布和公布之前發生了什麼？這次編列的特別預算880億，對我們的企業界來講當然是不夠的，要怎麼及時雨的協助企業，這點非常重要。所以從4月21日的880億，到4月24日的4,100億，這個決策到底是怎麼形成的？是完全保密嗎？有沒有跟部會首長討論？還是府院自己獨斷決定？請做說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，確實當初是因為美國課徵對等關稅的議題，所以提出產業支持方案，從880億後來加到930億。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：增加50億。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
何次長晉滄：對，增加50億。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：我們一直吶喊，一直跟企業界討論，大家認為不夠，結果最後只有增加50億耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
何次長晉滄：所以在這樣的背景之下，因為今年有稅收賸餘，行政院考量除了經濟韌性，國內也需要加強社會與國土安全韌性。整個方案不是只有行政院做決定，而是有跟各部會一起討論的方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：哇！次長你這樣說，現在主計長也在旁邊，在4月24日王鴻薇委員質詢時，衛福部部長、健保署長以及社家署的官員都說，是早上看到新聞才知道這件事。跟次長現在說有跟官員討論，從880億到4,100億，到底怎麼回事？為什麼你的官員是不清楚的，而是等到當天看到新聞才知道？要不要再說明一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
何次長晉滄：行政院確實有找各部會做討論，才提出這樣的方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：那就沒有跟衛福部部長討論囉？他說是當天看到新聞才知道的。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
何次長晉滄：其實在健保的補助部分也有納入方案裡面，我想衛福部應該也有這樣的需求。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：衛福部有沒有需求跟部長當天看到新聞才知道這個預算，跟你現在說的是完全不同方向耶！人民要知道到底是怎麼樣的決策。在財政紀律裡，主計總處在4月24日記者會上表示4,100億的預算全部由歲計賸餘支應，不需要舉債債務來支應是不是？請您回答一下，4月24日當天的記者會您是這麼說嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：原則上是，因為我們113年度有1,641億的賸餘。雖然這個數字要到7月才能定案，但到時候就會有這筆歲計賸餘產生。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：所以就是不需要舉債，是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：原則上是不需要舉債的。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：原則上是不需要，那請問你們今天送來的草案第六條裡面說，所需經費來源得以移用以前年度歲計賸餘或者舉借債務支應，為什麼你們送出來的條文和現在所說的不一致？請做說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：這就跟我們上次1,000億的追加預算情況一樣，因為113年度的決算必須到7月審計部審定之後才會定案，所以雖然我們有1,641億的賸餘，但在還沒下來之前我必須先用舉債，等到它確定下來後就可改回用賸餘。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：當時你在記者會上說不需要舉債就能支應，你當時是說如此嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：對，到最後也是不需要舉債的。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：所以你必須要跟社會大眾說明清楚，因為你在記者會上所說的跟條文的內容彈性很大，所以本席一再強調要跟社會大眾說明清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：再強調一次，這次的4,100億裡需不需要舉債支應？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：到最後的執行結果是不需要舉債的，因為113年度會賸餘1,641億。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：如果按照主計長說的不需要舉債，那條文第六條就不用寫啊！你應該刪除啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：對，但問題是在5月或6月就可能需要編列預算，在編的時候審計部還沒有審定，還不能把它化為我們的賸餘。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：行政部門這條文是白紙寫黑字，彈性非常的大，跟你在記者會上面說的不一致。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：這是一個權宜的措施而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：所以你必須要跟社會大眾說明清楚。換句話說，也就是確定不需要舉債，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：這是必須要向人民釐清的，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：接下來要討論台電撥補1,000億的問題。次長，我們一直在討論這個問題，也就是你撥補完了，可以改善台電的財務體質嗎？我們希望的是穩定供電，而不是讓台電變成財務黑洞。如果你可以承諾我們撥補1,000億讓電價不漲價，財務可以改善，當然不無不可。本席再次具體請教，若再撥補1,000億，電價是不是就不會漲？請做說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，如同我剛剛一直強調的，電價是由電價審議會決定，這1,000億如果真的撥補給台電的話，我想電價審議會會做出一個決定來；也就是說，他們會從台電整個財務結構的韌性，以及台電未來在經營上是不是可以開源節流的部分，做出電價是不是要繼續凍漲的決定。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：可是人民得不到答案啊？因為以往都是台電自己提出財務報告，他自己提出的報告說就算3,000億之外再撥補2,000億，2026年到2027年仍舊會虧損，台電沒有辦法單獨靠他自己本身的努力達到損益兩平；更建議如果燃料成本漲價的時候，可以考量適度調漲民生電價，或是政府持續補助民生用電。換句話說，我們就算是再撥補，台電的財務還是沒有辦法改善，還要再向人民拿錢，再漲價，因為之前我們撥補了3,000億，但電費仍舊漲價將近40%，所以人民嚇到了，到底再撥補能不能承諾不會漲價？再請教！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我還是要尊重電價審議委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：好！你說的尊重，我就再告訴你：總統先生說1,000億補助台電，希望今年電價不要漲。讓台電繼續經營不要漲價，這是總統先生說的，請教你會不會照著總統先生所說的，讓人民好生活？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
何次長晉滄：當然，我們也希望這1,000億真的拿到之後，到了電價審議委員會能夠有讓電價不要漲這樣的決定。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：讓電價不要漲的決定？換句話說，你是承諾如果撥補就不會漲嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
何次長晉滄：我意思是說…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：會照總統說的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
何次長晉滄：這個1,000億撥進來之後，在電價審議會的討論，我覺得對電價凍漲是有加分的。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：次長，以往撥補3,000億，我們的電費仍舊漲價了四成，所以民眾要問：到底我再撥補給你，你會不會還是漲價？還是漲了要再補，補了還要再漲？總統先生已經說話了，會不會照總統先生所說的不漲價？會不會？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
何次長晉滄：總統也是尊重電價審議會委員會的決定，因為他說希望今年電價可以不要調漲；所以我們還是回到電價審議會的那個決策機制。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
楊委員瓊瓔：所以還是回到電價審議委員會，所以還是沒辦法跟民眾說出即使再撥補是不是不會漲的承諾？台電很辛苦，所以我具體要求對台電的財務改革計畫、台電的國家能源改革計畫，你們必須拿出一套方案，因為人民拒絕當提款機！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
主席：謝謝。現在請王鴻薇委員質詢，王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][1] |
現在請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][2] |
現在請許宇甄委員質詢，許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][3] |
現在請牛煦庭委員質詢，牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][4] |
現在請翁曉玲委員質詢，翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][5] |
現在請葉元之委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
154 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
41 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-05-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1144901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1144901_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、
本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委
員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院
委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答） |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1144901_00002 |