| IVOD_ID |
161392 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161392 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T14:32:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T14:45:40+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bf11ddb9b969b6509a35373469a84e2c37ba5a36b7b1a50665676bdfe407d455b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳超明 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:32:00 - 14:45:40 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。
四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）
【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】） |
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| gazette.lineno |
1582 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員超明：（14時32分）主席好，有請何次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請何次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
何次長晉滄：陳委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
陳委員超明：次長好。今天我們是討論因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例，總共金額4,100億元，其中經濟部跟農業部在這個裡面，支持產業還有安定就業的力量是930億元；在經濟部分有六大面向是750億元；農業部分有180億元。這個問題的起源就是因為關稅的問題，我請教次長，民進黨執政到現在要八年、十年，我們的雙邊貿易，雙邊貿易就是關稅的一個問題，大概你們都沒有成就到一個國家，新加坡、紐西蘭在國民黨時代簽的，中南美洲的小國也在國民黨時代簽的，到現在你們一事無成，所以在關稅裡面我們遇到很大的困難，我現在不談美國了，但你們真的不長進，這點你們要好好研究一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
再者，今天你們執政說南向政策，臺商就跟著你們配合南向政策，你們在臺灣又採取了很多的政策，像是根留臺灣、臺商回臺投資行動方案、中小企業投資方案，讓大家拚得要死，幾兆的投資。但是現在川普說到關稅問題，你們驚慌失策不曉得怎麼做，說要組織美國國家投資隊，我們要「脫中入北」，我們要「脫中入美」，我不知道這個政策去到美國，臺灣人會適應嗎？未來會是怎樣？尤其現在部長帶了一百三十幾個企業，包括台積電等所有相關連的企業都帶過去了，這是掏空臺灣，難道我們不用留個本嗎？請次長簡單回答一下，我知道這個問題對你很大，但是你要找出根源在哪裡，臺灣的企業家是遊牧民族，調適力和適應力很強，但是你整個帶過去，我看起來是掏空臺灣！ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
何次長晉滄：向委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
陳委員超明：不要跟我說沒問題，其實問題真的很大。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們臺灣企業的全球布局，早在美國對等關稅發生之前，大家都已經在美國以外的其他國家有很充分的布局了，但是這一次的對等關稅，其實臺商在投資的國家有許多的關稅…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳委員超明：我聽你說很多了。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
何次長晉滄：高關稅造成這種…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳委員超明：我今天看到一個新聞，川普總統到沙烏地阿拉伯要買好多好多的晶片，要投資1兆，建立數據中心，人家是拿這個來作嫁。我們臺灣本來還有一點技術的能力，現在是替人做苦工，說要建立數據中心，我們要做我們AI的其他應用，說不定我們是被應用的，我們要保留一點實力，其實臺灣很好左右游走，但是我們現在一面倒，所以只能夠面臨痛苦的時代。我請你今天去看新聞你就曉得，沙烏地阿拉伯要建立AI的整個數據中心，最高級的晶片都在那邊。反觀我們臺灣的地位是「茫茫渺渺」，臺灣在這八年的執政，民進黨不知道要帶我們去哪裡，我們好像是在迷行中。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][1] |
再請教陳部長，農業部分有一百八十多億，我先跟你說，我們為了要加入CPTPP，我們是從開發中國家要到已開發中國家，像現在在美國開放之後，大家要跟你要求開放，你如何保障我們的農業？怎麼使用這180億？絕對是不夠的。我舉紐西蘭的鮮乳為例，我為了臺灣的鮮乳跟你們戰了很久，你們說會保護臺灣的，接下來我看你們把臺灣那些乳牛一隻一隻宰掉才沒有壓力，這是面對的局勢。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有啦，委員你這樣說，我可能要澄清一下，我們農業部絕對不會說…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳委員超明：我知道你不會啦！我告訴你，你要面對也是有困難，我知道你們在閃避，你不要自我辯護，其實我們早晚會面臨這樣的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳部長駿季：所以我們要有充分的準備。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳委員超明：我相信你的能力，但是你早晚要有這種承擔，壞的時間快要來了，請回座。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][1] |
再來，我談到強化國土防衛能量、提升資通作業環境及設備，哇！這大條了，這是哪兩個部會？是國防部跟海洋委員會？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：委員好，我是國防部副部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳委員超明：副部長也很大，我請教一個問題，印度跟巴基斯坦在打仗，你的感覺怎麼樣？我們臺灣資訊時代，怎麼這樣一打下來的話，印度在南亞的大國裡面，很看不起巴基斯坦，突然被巴基斯坦這樣打下來的話，你覺得這個變化如何？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：委員，我覺得是這樣，我告訴你，印巴這個衝突是視距外的飛彈，那兩國都是在本土就是他們自己國家領土上作戰，可是我們今天看到的這個大外宣好像巴基斯坦占了很好的優勢，印度為什麼都不講話？其實在作戰的過程當中有一個隱秘性，就是你暴露的行蹤越多，比如現在巴基斯坦說我的空軍有多厲害，我用了什麼方式去把印度的飛機給擊落了，可是印度就啞巴吃黃蓮、就不講話嗎？某些方面來講，你講的越多，人家越看出你的破綻，為什麼？因為你把你所有作戰的序列全曝光了，這在軍事的隱秘行動來講…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳委員超明：你是講巴基斯坦曝光，還是印度曝光？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：巴基斯坦曝光，他一直講一直講，講到最後，我要跟委員報告，最後慘的是他們的空軍還有國防部，為什麼？因為你講到最後，人家都把你看破手腳了。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
陳委員超明：所以我們國防部常常不講話，就是我們有秘密武器…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：所以我要跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳委員超明：我現在聽出來，我就是要問這個問題，我了解你的用意在哪裡了。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：跟委員報告，視距外的飛彈是有很多的戰術戰法，它有很多的配合，我要跟委員講…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳委員超明：但是外媒的分析說，一個系統跟多國的系統沒有連接在一起，我現在是要問這個問題。你們的經費1,500億在4,100億元裡面占很多，這個要是放到國防特別預算裡面，國防部拿那麼多錢花，也沒有監督到你們，我要老實講，我一直在看這個戰爭會怎樣的發展，我們臺灣的軍力在哪裡？所以我們不講話表示我們實力很強，我們在暗中蘊藏，你的意思就是這樣？你拿著報告說這個叫做基礎建設，你還要拿1,500億用在基礎建設上就來不及了，到時候就糟糕了，我不知道你的實力在哪裡，我們也不敢問。如果現在情況很不好，我們稍微一問，你們說我們傾中，我們就像共諜一樣、是同路人，其實我們很怕。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
陳委員超明：改天再請教，我大概知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][1] |
繼續請教海巡署，我當時在內政委員會，管委員那個時候也是，那時候船隻已經花了將近1,000億元了，現在你們還要再買是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：委員，船隻還是不夠喔。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
陳委員超明：還不夠？看他們是大型的驅逐艦，我們的船艦都是小型的，你仍然認為不夠嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：不夠，我們現在最大型的才4,000噸。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
陳委員超明：我知道、我知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：但是中國隨便就是3,000噸，甚至有幾萬噸的艦艇出來，我們最大型的才4,000噸級而已，而且現在才4艘而已，他們幾千噸以上的有好幾百艘。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
陳委員超明：我知道你們只有4艘，我知道、我知道…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：委員，後階段的造船才開始，我的東西國防預算沒辦法給我承認，我3月26日開了一個會…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
陳委員超明：現在你要做的最大的是幾噸？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：國防預算定義的會議在3月26日開，委員，講到這個東西，其實我是受害者，因為本來我在2月開始爭取，3月26日就開國防預算的定義，現在變成說我是插進來的，我不是插進來的，我不是搭便車進來，我才是主人喔，我在2月就開始要用這筆錢了啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
陳委員超明：現在你是主人，你接受國防部來幫你護航…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：沒有啊！國防部預算沒有包括海巡部分，海巡很委屈，我替國家做國防，但國防預算沒有把我們算在內。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
陳委員超明：好、好，我知道，你也是業務單位。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我不知道錢在哪裡。委員，你如果沒有把這一筆錢給我，我要問委員哪一筆錢要給我們？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
陳委員超明：不、不，我不敢說不給你們，等一下又說我是中共的同路人，我就「衰」死了！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：你就是沒有給我，國民黨現在就不要給我錢啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
陳委員超明：你現在想要做多大？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我只有300億而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
陳委員超明：在1,500億只占300億？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我占300億喔。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
陳委員超明：300億，剩下1,200億是給國防部？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：但你們不給我！ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
陳委員超明：是國防部，你要好好表現。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我們本來要開始討論國防預算，4月份才出現關稅的議題，我在3月的時候開了一個會，在2月發新聞稿、3月再開一個會，我們才是最早進來的預算，現在被當作我們是硬擠進來。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
陳委員超明：我記得你們去年花了1,500億造船，但有多少艘船做出來？你告訴我，你300億要買什麼船？有多大艘？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
陳委員超明：你要做1萬噸級的喔，否則不足以震撼人心，我告訴你喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果你要給我錢做1萬噸級的，我會給你磕頭！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
陳委員超明：1艘300億夠了吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果你要讓我們做1萬噸級的，我給你磕頭！真的很感謝你。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
陳委員超明：要注意一下發展啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：但是，委員，這一筆錢不能不給我們。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
陳委員超明：沒有啦，我沒說要砍你的預算，你現在這樣說，電視台…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：對啊！你已經把我砍掉了啦！委員，國民黨的版本已經把我…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
陳委員超明：邱委員在這裡，你不能把這段當視頻喔！大家講清楚，我現在跟你對答，你們要去解釋一下，好像我在砍你預算，我是請教你預算如何用…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：對啊！你把我的預算拿掉了啊！國民黨版本把預算拿掉了…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
陳委員超明：沒有，我是請教你如何使用，你不要說我砍你預算…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：是啊，你砍了我三百多億，委員，你有砍我的預算，所以你要給我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
陳委員超明：我很支持國防，我很支持國家海洋委員會，不要說我砍你預算，我還沒砍，你就說得好像我砍了，我很害怕欸！ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：不能說假的。是啊！是你砍我預算沒有錯啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
陳委員超明：沒有啦，我哪有砍你預算？我現在是問你如何使用。邱委員，你以後要作證啊！我在經濟委員會只是問你如何使用。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：委員，因為你們的版本就砍了我們的預算，委員，你都沒有看，所以你不知道你砍了我的預算，很多委員都不知道砍了我300億！ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
陳委員超明：我跟你說，管主委，我沒有砍你預算，我問你在1,500億元中，你說你只有300億而已，國防部1,200億，由國防部來護航你，你很委屈，本來你應該要比較多…… |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：砍預算不是砍我的部分。不是，到目前為止，我3月26日開了一個會議…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
陳委員超明：你跟國防部討回來，我支持你啦！這樣可以嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：不行，你不能說假的，全世界…… |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
陳委員超明：我絕對說真的，我這個人是很老實的，我很老實的。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：國防預算的定義是什麼？3月26日開會的時候就不把我算在裡面了，因為那個定義在全世界有各種不同的定義方式，所以才變成是國土安全預算…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
陳委員超明：你現在說有不同意義，現在是強韌，我想說是國防部的…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我好不容易進來了，結果你們現在又把我砍掉。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
陳委員超明：現在海洋委員會很厲害，你只有300億而已，你不夠要向國防部拿嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：我300億，至少3年的預算可以補喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
主席：不要再砍了，不要再砍了。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
陳委員超明：好啦！你不要說我有砍你預算喔！現在先說清楚，我聽到都嚇死了…… |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
主席：現在都沒有砍了，沒有兇殺案。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：委員，你們砍了我300億，拜託不要把它砍掉。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
陳委員超明：好啦！了解、了解。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
主席：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][1] |
現在請邱委員志偉做詢答。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
154 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
41 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-05-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1144901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1144901_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、
本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委
員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院
委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答） |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1144901_00002 |