| IVOD_ID |
161391 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161391 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T14:21:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T14:31:55+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:15 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b85dccd4cc44fb513a35373469a84e2c37ba5a36b7b1a506614d49caf4f3f18ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡易餘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:21:40 - 14:31:55 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。
四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）
【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】） |
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| gazette.lineno |
1530 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
蔡委員易餘：（14時21分）謝謝召委。有請經濟部何次長跟台電王總。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：何次長、王總。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
何次長晉滄：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
蔡委員易餘：次長，昨天在野黨通過了核管法，也就是未來不僅僅是核三廠，包括核一廠、核二廠，縱使它在停役後都有辦法再申請重啟核能，我想要請教次長以及總經理，現在核一廠當然已經除役了，而核二廠在除役前半年事實上就已經提早除役，提早除役的原因是因為它本身的燃料池不夠了，它的燃料池已經不夠燃料棒使用，所以燃料棒就一直放在燃料池裡面，它也沒辦法建設乾式貯存場，所以核二廠竟然還沒有到40年就提早除役，我想要問這件事正確嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，沒有錯！核二廠的1號機正式除役是在2021年12月27日，但是因為燃料池空間不夠，已經提早在2021年7月2號就除役了，所以差不多有半年的時間沒有用。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
蔡委員易餘：所以這個意思就是說，縱使我們在昨天通過這樣一個核管法，說要讓核二廠恢復、要重啟核二廠的運作，也沒有用，是不是這個意思？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
王總經理耀庭：目前燃料棒拿不出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
蔡委員易餘：因為燃料棒不會拿出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
蔡委員易餘：因為找不到它的乾式貯存場。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是的。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
蔡委員易餘：也沒有縣市，包括新北市也不願意核發乾式貯存場的建照，沒有錯吧？所以縱使現在開啟這個程序，並沒有實質上的幫助？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
王總經理耀庭：在去年的12月30號我們已經開工了，終於拿到了。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
蔡委員易餘：有拿到？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
王總經理耀庭：有拿到室外乾貯的執照。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
蔡委員易餘：有拿到室外乾貯的執照？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
王總經理耀庭：現在正在建造乾式貯存場的空間。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
蔡委員易餘：所以現在在建造了？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
蔡委員易餘：那未來就有可能把核二廠的燃料棒放在這個乾式貯存場？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
王總經理耀庭：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
蔡委員易餘：照計畫是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
王總經理耀庭：還是要到明年那個場地才可以用，要能夠真正拿出來是要到後年。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蔡委員易餘：好。我想要請教核三廠的狀況呢？核三廠目前有乾式貯存場嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
王總經理耀庭：核三廠的燃料池還有空間，還可以用三到五年的時間。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蔡委員易餘：用三到五年？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蔡委員易餘：所以如果真的讓它展延的話，也是3到5年，除非它有乾式貯存場，把裡面的燃料棒拿起來。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
王總經理耀庭：核三廠的部分主要是因為還要由核安會去訂定，就是將來真的要延役的話，那要檢查哪一些項目，那些安全檢查的項目現在都要有法律程序 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
蔡委員易餘：安全檢查是一個嘛，第二個是我講的，縱使我們現在給它恢復，讓它繼續使用核能運作，以它裡面的空間就剩十幾%，剩十幾%就是3到5年，所以也是發電個3到5年，核能如果沒有辦法做乾式貯存的話，核三廠一樣會進入燃料池爆滿、爆倉，所以就無法運作。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是的，委員說的都是正確的。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
蔡委員易餘：我說的是正確的。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
蔡委員易餘：所以我可以這樣推斷，如果乾式貯存場沒有辦法順利建造的話，那就會陷入一種情況，就是縱使我們要重啟核能，但是它就是撐個3到5年，3到5年之後沒有乾式貯存場，一樣是爆滿，一樣是沒辦法運作，所以你說要把它展延10年、展延20年，它就是一個不精準的數字，沒有錯吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是，中間有一些…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
蔡委員易餘：會有一些變數存在，這些變數很多又在於人為的考量，這個人為的考量就超出了台電本身的專業考量，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
王總經理耀庭：委員說的是。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
蔡委員易餘：沒有錯嘛！所以我要說的重點就是這樣，就是我們對於臺灣的用電怎麼可以這樣？我昨天就已經說了，如同飲鴆止渴，以喝毒水來止口乾會越來越糟，因為你只解決了3年或是5年的用電，接下來你沒有一個新的能源規劃，你沒有在這個時候趕快有新的能源規劃來替代現在的核三廠，或者是來做怎樣的一個新的規劃，你腦袋只在思考這3年要來繼續用核電，好，就撐個5年，這5年繼續用核三廠的核電，結果3年、5年過了，也不是展延20年啊！所以我說這個事情真的很不前瞻啦，台電應該要把這些事情講清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][1] |
我再舉另外一個數字，如果我們看每一個國家的比較，像比利時的核電占比是46%，電價是11.6元；英國的核電占比14%，電價是10.9元；法國的核電占比是62.6%，電價是9.55元；斯洛維尼亞核電占比是42.8%，電價是8.34元；日本核電占比是6.1%，電價是7.84元；斯洛伐克核電占比是59.2%，電價是6.53元；南韓的核電占比是30%，電價是3.96元；匈牙利核電占比是47%，電價是3.47元；美國核電占比是18%，電價3.28元；臺灣現在的核電占比是2.4%，在這個星期六過後有可能會降到變成0，我們現在的電價是3.48元！我要從這樣的核電占比來看，到底是不是因為核電才讓電價變得不足以供應？我覺得如果以這樣的比例來看的話，就沒有這樣的一個必然的關係，請教台電是怎麼看的？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
王總經理耀庭：委員說的是，因為目前核能暫時便宜，是因為整個原來折舊的部分都已經折舊完了，如果假設真的我們再展延，整個投資下去的金額是非常巨大的，攤到每一度電的成本事實上也是整個拉高的，所以相對跟天然氣或是跟煤比較起來，它不見得會比較便宜，那這個數字會多少？我們不知道，因為將來核電假設要重啟，所要增加的費用是多少？目前還未可知。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
蔡委員易餘：增加的費用不知道嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
蔡委員易餘：這些費用事實上都沒有被算在所謂核電的成本裡面，因為你單純只是用發電成本，都沒有算進後端的貯存成本，包括我剛剛說的，我們為了要興建乾式貯存場，又需要多少成本？這部分都沒有把它算進去嘛！是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
王總經理耀庭：這個部分是用核後端的基金在支付，是兩件事，我們現在講的是如果真的假設要再…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
蔡委員易餘：所以是沒有算在發電成本裡面，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是，目前還在…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
蔡委員易餘：那部分是核後端基金在處理，所以你把那些都算進來，整個成本的考量又不一樣，核電成本的計算又不一樣了。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
王總經理耀庭：對，因為如果要重啟的話，一定要做一些新增補強設備的投資，這些投資的費用目前都還沒有估算，這個部分估算以後，會算到每一度的成本裡面，那部分算進去的話，每一度電的成本就不一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
蔡委員易餘：核電的成本每一度電就不一樣，我覺得這個台電就是講清楚，所以我們要誇讚台電的是，事實上你們在這樣的環境之下，你們有辦法創造像剛剛我列舉的表，臺灣的用電大概是屬於世界前幾名便宜的，我們沒有到最便宜，但也是排在很前面，尤其在面對俄烏戰爭整個原料成本提高的時候，事實上政府對於台電的照顧，相對於日本、韓國和其他國家的補助也是最少的，對台電的照顧到目前為止差不多是3,000億，看起來是很大的數字，可是以這幾年來天然氣上漲，造成台電的成本上升，就政府所給的照顧，跟台電為了擋住整個物價成本上升所花費的力道差太多，所以我還是覺得這個1,000億就是有必要，而這個1,000億下去，台電在未來做電價評估的時候，相對不會漲電價，不會漲電價就是全民受益，不但全民受益，企業主也受益，不漲電價讓他們的成本降低，同時對家庭用電的部分也不漲價。實際上，發1萬塊是一次性的，一次1萬塊，反觀如果可以不漲電價，時間拖得越久，那個經濟價值就會大於1萬塊嘛！好不好？我覺得我們該繼續堅持，我們也希望在野黨真的不要擋台電這1,000億的補助，這實在很重要，我們要把整個縱深拉得長，把時間拉得久，價值會大於你的1萬塊，我覺得這個要講清楚，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
王總經理耀庭：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
主席：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][1] |
現在請陳超明委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
154 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
41 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-05-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1144901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1144901_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、
本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委
員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院
委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答） |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1144901_00002 |