| IVOD_ID |
161377 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161377 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T12:40:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T12:52:53+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bf973700c6a4b509eb7f4692fd5f06072c717538999138866be1ab5d36ae375a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:40:28 - 12:52:53 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)。【秘密會議】二、邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)。【秘密會議結束後再進行第二、三項議程】
【5月12日（星期一）、14日（星期三）、15日（星期四）三天一次會】） |
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| gazette.lineno |
768 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
張委員啓楷：（12時40分）請部長和役政司長、消防署署長。 |
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主席：請部長、署長和司長。 |
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劉部長世芳：張委員好。 |
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張委員啓楷：部長，今天針對閃兵藝人的動作很大，還跑到綠島抓人。為什麼今天動作會這麼大？有發現閃兵的集團，是不是？這個部分役政司長比較了解吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉部長世芳：是不是可以請役政司長來回應？他比較知道狀況。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
沈司長哲芳：謝謝委員的關心。藝人逃避兵役這件事情，我們是去年底發現類似個案，而且有所掌握，並且已經移送法辦。因為移送法辦了，所以檢調今天…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
張委員啓楷：除了王大陸之外，那算是第一批，你說後來你們去年底就有掌握一批？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
沈司長哲芳：對，去年底我們就有掌握到，而且已經移送法辦。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
張委員啓楷：為什麼經過那麼久，今年才查辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
沈司長哲芳：那就要問他們了，因為我們已經移送檢調單位。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
張委員啓楷：先移送檢調？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
沈司長哲芳：對，我們已經移送檢調了。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
張委員啓楷：這一批大概有多少人？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
沈司長哲芳：我們清查之後，差不多有120人。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
張委員啓楷：你是說全部？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
沈司長哲芳：有疑問的啦！因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
張委員啓楷：這120人裡面有多少是藝人？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
沈司長哲芳：藝人目前掌握到11位。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
張委員啓楷：這11位今天全部都查辦，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
沈司長哲芳：對，目前掌握的是11位。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
張委員啓楷：後續還有沒有其他藝人？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
沈司長哲芳：後續我們還在清查當中。我們還追溯到5年以內的，一些有可能的個案，包括高血壓的部分，這個部分我們有做一個清查。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以今天約談和逮捕的人裡面，有11位是藝人，對不對？他們也有到綠島去抓人。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
沈司長哲芳：對，是。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
張委員啓楷：另外，你說全部有120人？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
沈司長哲芳：我們清查之後有疑義的，也是送檢調。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
張委員啓楷：其他人什麼時候會查辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
沈司長哲芳：這個要問檢調。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉部長世芳：移送給司法單位了。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
沈司長哲芳：對，已經移送司法單位。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以還有下一波？ |
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沈司長哲芳：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
張委員啓楷：好。這裡面出現一個很大的問題，閃兵的藝人裡面，有些已經超過36歲，因為36歲就除役了，對不對？ |
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沈司長哲芳：對。 |
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張委員啓楷：像陳零九已經38歲，小蝦好像37歲，這怎麼辦？ |
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沈司長哲芳：當然，他涉及不法的部分，該移送法辦、該判刑的，還是要判刑。但是他已經超過36歲，所以就不會讓他回來服兵役了。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
張委員啓楷：就不會再抓回來當兵？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
沈司長哲芳：對。 |
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張委員啓楷：教召要回來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
沈司長哲芳：不用。因為超過36歲的列管年齡。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以只是交由檢調查辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
沈司長哲芳：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
張委員啓楷：南韓對這個部分非常重視，他們有非常多規定。除了法辦之外，你們現在有沒有準備修法或是做什麼規範？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
沈司長哲芳：有。我們目前是建議國防部修體位區分標準，把相關規範再訂的更為嚴謹。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。本席要問另外一個很重要的事情，請消防署署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
蕭署長煥章：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
張委員啓楷：署長，你知道滅火器裡面有一級的致癌物結晶型二氧化矽嗎？ |
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蕭署長煥章：這個案子我們有專案調查過。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
張委員啓楷：專案調查過？本席看連監察院，部長的老朋友蘇麗瓊、田秋堇、浦忠成，他們都提了糾正案，為什麼現在還有這樣的滅火器？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
蕭署長煥章：這個案子監察院已經調查終結，雖然裡面含有SiO2，但這是正常含量，讓它不會固化，世界各國都有這個情形，不是只有臺灣有這個狀況。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
張委員啓楷：署長，滅火器裡面的結晶型二氧化矽，依照危害物質資料表顯示，它被IARC國際癌症研究機構列為一級致癌物，對不對？第二個…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
蕭署長煥章：這個部分…… |
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張委員啓楷：先聽本席說。本席去查過，民國103年和109年，你們都明文要求滅火器裡面不能含有有害物質，特別是致癌物，為什麼拖這麼久沒有解決這個問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
蕭署長煥章：這個案子已經做過實驗調查和後續處理，已經有一個階段性的處理方式，是不是容許會後向委員詳細報告？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
張委員啓楷：署長，監察院的糾正案是怎麼說的？他們去做市場查核檢驗，明確發現有部分滅火器乾粉藥劑裡面含有致癌的結晶型二氧化矽，而且最高含量是15.9%，這不是輕微的喔！和你們當初的文件內容和調查結果完全不符，所以監察院才會提糾正案啊！ |
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蕭署長煥章：是，我們有向監察院回報，已經調查完成了。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
張委員啓楷：民國110年2月3日就糾正，要你們去查辦，為什麼到現在還沒有改正呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
蕭署長煥章：最近已經向監察院回報，監察院也調查完成了。是不是容許會後向委員做詳細報告？這個部分已經做了階段性處理，至於後續的處理方式，我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
張委員啓楷：你們現在做的階段性處理是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
蕭署長煥章：有關SiO2的含量，這在大環境裡面一定存在。經我們實際做過實驗，實驗結果並沒有實際造成人體危害，這個都有…… |
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張委員啓楷：監察院說含量是15.9%，有危害啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
蕭署長煥章：這是含量，但是對大環境並沒有造成影響。這個部分比較複雜，在這邊可能沒有辦法一下子向委員報告清楚，現在就是先做階段性處理，之後針對這個區塊，我們會以階段性、逐年的方式處理含量的問題。不是只有臺灣有這樣的含量，其實每一個國家都有，包括先進國家的乾粉滅火器都有含這個物質。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
張委員啓楷：但是含量很少啦！本席給你看一個畫面，這是4月12日發生的事，部長也看一下，搞不好哪天你在高鐵上就會碰到這個問題。高鐵傳出火警，因為有乘客的行動電源自燃，這個新聞是怎麼說的？一開始就是用剛剛說的那種滅火器去滅火，結果導致現場煙霧瀰漫、氣味強烈，除了列車的地板有燒灼痕跡，後面還寫了什麼？走道上瀰漫滅火器濃濃的粉塵，所以它不是少量啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[62][1] |
第一個，這是每個人都可能會碰到的，今天我們是為了捍衛每個人的安全，因為滅火器裡面本來就不應該含這個物質啊！如果照這個規定，本來就不應該。但你現在辯護說它是很少量的，但本席要告訴你，發生這種狀況的時候就不會是少量喔！第二個，本席現在給你看的是監察院的報告，他們調查之後發現有些高達15.9%，所以本席現在明確要求，你們要儘快處理。 |
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蕭署長煥章：是，已經在處理了。 |
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張委員啓楷：你們現在的逐年計畫是要怎麼處理？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
蕭署長煥章：目前我們已經公布SiO2的檢驗標準。SiO2的含量有一個標準，會逐年下降。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
張委員啓楷：等一下！你剛剛說的是結晶型二氧化矽？你們還是繼續用這個物質嗎？很多專家學者告訴本席，這是完全不能存在的。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
蕭署長煥章：世界各國的乾粉滅火器當中，SiO2是一定存在的，沒辦法完全廢止。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
張委員啓楷：絕大部分都沒有啦！是因為你們…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
蕭署長煥章：不是的。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
張委員啓楷：聽本席說。是因為你們沒有規定乾粉滅火器的年限，對不對？國外為什麼不需要這個致癌物？因為他們都有規定年限啊！粉末式的年限就是兩、三年，但我們沒有限制，對不對？你是專家，請你回答本席的問題。是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
蕭署長煥章：乾粉滅火器一定會存在，為了讓乾粉滅火器不會固化，SiO2這個物質也一定會存在。委員關心的是它的量，包括比例是多少，這個物質的百分比是多少，這部分我們會逐年處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
張委員啓楷：本席現在不懂的是，剛剛也給你看了，11年前消防署就要求要改，對不對？過了8年，連監察院都提出糾正。第一個，為什麼改正的速度這麼慢？還是完全沒有改？你們到底是遇到什麼問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
蕭署長煥章：這個部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
張委員啓楷：吹哨者檢舉的時候，說裡面的水很深啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
蕭署長煥章：不會深啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
張委員啓楷：本席不管水有多深，最重要的是什麼？就是要保障人民的安全，因為這牽涉到健康嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
蕭署長煥章：那是一定的。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊！所以你們的速度要加快。本席現在要一個很明確的答復，因為本席希望向全民交代清楚，你們準備怎麼做？速度怎麼加快？ |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
蕭署長煥章：我們已經公布SiO2的檢驗標準，就是乾粉滅火器裡面含有SiO2的量到底是多少，這個部分一定會揭示在標示上面，這是首先向委員回報的。至於乾粉滅火器含有多少SiO2，目前我們在和業界研商到底怎麼處理這個問題，這是另外一個階段的方法。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
張委員啓楷：你們的計畫在一個禮拜內提供給本席。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
蕭署長煥章：是，我們再向委員詳細報告，沒有問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們再進一步檢討怎麼儘快改正，不要發生危害到人民健康的事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
蕭署長煥章：是。因為資料弄清楚以後，連監察院也了解，喔！原來這是在資訊不完整的情形之下所得到的結果，目前已經很清楚地了解了。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
張委員啓楷：抱歉，主席已經站起來了。主席，本席再借1分鐘就好，有一件事情很重要，本席要問一下。關於消防器材的檢驗，以前是經濟部商品檢驗局負責，對不對？民國97年交給消防署之後，你們現在交給兩個基金會。本席的問題很簡單，本席去查負責消防器材檢驗的這兩個基金會，給大家看一下，15個董事裡面，有7個是業者，這不是球員兼裁判嗎？對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
蕭署長煥章：是，有兩個基金會。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
張委員啓楷：怎麼可以自己檢查自己的產品，對不對？這要改，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
蕭署長煥章：目前是委託基金會處理，我們再來檢討這個方式。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
張委員啓楷：不要再讓業者介入，他們的產品應該要由你們檢查。哪有人這樣做的？他們的產品要接受檢查，結果自己卻去當裁判。另外8個都有消防專業，可能是消防局長退下來的，這些我們肯定。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
蕭署長煥章：一半以上都具有消防專業。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
張委員啓楷：對嘛！但是這7位就不合適啦！好不好？這7位要換掉啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
蕭署長煥章：是，謝謝委員指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
張委員啓楷：另外，本席問一個最簡單的，就是標章。你們檢查完之後，部長，綠建築標章是你發的嘛！本席看上面的署名是劉世芳，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
劉部長世芳：建研所。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
張委員啓楷：對嘛！一樣啊！綠建築是由部長發的，消防檢驗怎麼可以由基金會處理呢？把它改過來，以後上面蓋部長的章，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
劉部長世芳：太多了。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
蕭署長煥章：做不來。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
張委員啓楷：你們做不來？不是做不來。如果是環保署，當然是彭啓明署名啊！如果是經濟部的，署名當然是經濟部部長，這是特例耶！怎麼只有消防署的檢…… |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
蕭署長煥章：因為消防器材的種類相當多，有幾千萬的量，全部都要政府機關來處理是有困難的。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以它的公信力就會…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
蕭署長煥章：所以委員，現在我們也和UL針對這方面做對接，怎麼樣把臺灣的器材國際化，現在也正在執行當中，目前的狀況是這樣，會再逐年檢討、強化，我們有一些步驟要執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
張委員啓楷：署長、部長，本席提醒一下，不管之後是由哪一個部會認證，或是由誰去檢查，例如工研院，最後一定是蓋部長的章啦！這幾乎是特例，而且和人民的健康、安全有關係，當然要部長認證啊！你們可以由這兩個基金會去檢查，但是檢查完之後，最後的責任還是在部長啦！好不好？你們再看一下，本席有去查所有部會，連綠建築都是蓋部長的章啊！這個部分要改過來。剛剛說的那個資料要趕快給本席，我們要捍衛人民的健康安全，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][1] |
蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][2] |
邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][3] |
鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][4] |
羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][5] |
林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][6] |
請沈伯洋委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
332 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-3-15-19 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
275 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-05-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1144901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1144901_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部
長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部
及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分) |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1144901_00005 |