| IVOD_ID |
161361 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161361 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T12:10:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T12:22:35+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b7d266eee441d9017a35373469a84e2c332c61d2bb6e1b5d9dd4df15546ecd50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:10:03 - 12:22:35 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。
四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）
【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】） |
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| gazette.lineno |
1113 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：（12時10分）主席、各位在場委員、列席的首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，由於今天來的部會首長很多，分批邀請備詢，我會先預告請準備。首先邀請我們主計長跟台電的曾董事長，請財政部跟勞動部兩位次長準備。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請陳主計長和曾董事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：主計長，我們來看一下台電虧損的主要原因，你認為是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：主要是撥補民生電價的部分抑制它上漲，所以有連續兩年撥補了將近2,800億元。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：請問曾董事長，是不是如同我這個統計表上寫的一樣，台電虧損的主要原因是燃料上漲、成本提高還有補貼醫院跟學校的電費差？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
曾董事長文生：其實我們整體電價在2022年和2023年也都沒有反映，電價沒有調漲但成本有提高。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：好，簡單講是這樣。接下來請教一下主計長和曾董事長，我在4月29號院會的時候有詢問過卓院長，提到在野黨說不如拿1萬元來發一發，民眾拿這1萬元來付多漲的電價，有道理嗎？如果電價漲了，電費帳單沒有增加那麼多，可是額外支出的生活開銷遠超過1萬元呢？院長說這點要請你好好來說明，請問你會怎麼說明？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：這是預估，如果電價漲的話，大概每個月電費會增加625元，一年下來大概會增加將近7,500元。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：一年會增加7,500元還不到1萬元。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：其他的物價也會跟著漲，這樣算來大概增加3,600多元，合計超過1萬元。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以主計總處核算結果發現，如果不補貼台電這1,000億元，拿2,600億元來發每人1萬元紅包的話，結果到頭來因為生活開銷上漲、物價循環波動，我們民眾的負擔超過1萬元，是這樣的意思？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：是，超過1萬元。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！我們請財政部跟勞動部兩位次長上來，曾董事長跟陳主計長請回，時間暫停。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
主席：不用暫停了。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：不用暫停，謝謝主席！阮次長，如果說拿了1萬元紅包結果物價都上漲了，那到底誰比較虧？我們看看政府的稅收，經過重分配，用來支持產業發展、繁榮經濟，也照顧了社會福利，充實了公共建設，包括國防建設，結果因為我們沒有拿這個稅收補貼台電，就會造成物價循環波動大於普發的1萬元，你認為這對誰的影響大？對有錢人還是對一般階級的人影響比較大？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我們這個條例基本上是為了因應美國關稅的問題，…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：但是我們有加強經濟社會安全、國防韌性。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
阮次長清華：所以我們是希望相關的經費要考慮到長遠。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以我問你的是如果我們沒有撥補台電，造成物價循環波動遠超過普發1萬元，那麼會受影響加重負擔的是財富階級還是一般階級？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
阮次長清華：當然是一般階級的負擔比較重。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：勞動部陳次長同意嗎？你覺得我們勞工階層會受到比較大的影響，拿這1萬元反而不足以應付物價波動導致的開銷增加，是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳次長明仁：當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：謝謝兩位次長，接下來要請教國防部柏副部長、海委會管主委跟經濟部何次長。首先請教副部長，我們提到了臺美的軍事交流合作有辦法來提升嚇阻中國，你同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：美國堂堂說他目前全世界都要去分心，希望盟友自己提高軍費，提高自己的防衛能力，來減輕美國的負擔，你同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：因為國防預算編列要看各國家的財政裕度，我想現在已經普遍…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以他說友盟國家要增加軍費，美中的重心要從歐洲移到亞洲，印太地區的友盟國家軍力要提高嚇阻力，你支持也同意我們也應該要這樣做，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：這是美國的戰略，我想全球都已經看到了，在第一島鏈的情況下，我們配合美國的政策，在這個區塊如何維護區域安全，我想我們有這個責任。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：但是有個問題，為因應川普關稅，軍品採購比例大增，是不是我們可以爭取改為商售，平衡臺美的貿易逆差？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：過去的軍商售一定是平衡的，現在是快速採購，要能夠快速形成戰略的，在這個區塊來講，可能商售是比較成熟的。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！我們現在請教何次長，增加軍費有利關稅談判，這點你同意嗎？就是說目前美國提高關稅的目的有三：減少美國政府的支出，尤其是龐大的軍費支出；其次是減少他的負債，他現在每年要付的債息就超過其軍費了；另外就是平衡貿易逆差，為平衡貿易逆差因此我們增加對美採購，負債的部分我們先不談，那麼增加軍費是不是有平衡貿易採購，也同時讓美國在軍費的支出有所降低，你認為有幫助嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
何次長晉滄：我想只要有助於臺美之間貿易平衡的部分應該都是有助益的。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：接下來請教管主委，你們提到「海空一體、精銳海巡」，希望增建海巡艦艇，強化部署無人載具，然後在平戰的轉移，你們認為水下監測能量、導入海洋科技有急迫性跟重要性，請教一下，目前你們對於海警的預警到取締有沒有導入無人載具了？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們目前就是空中的無人機還不足，譬如說我們的艦載，以中國這一次軍演來講，他是用暗船來軍演，當他用暗船來軍演的時候，我們的艦船艇在海上如果有無人載具可以協助的話，我們就可以在第一時間更快的去找到這些暗船，因為他故意把AIS關掉，這些都非常重要。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以你們的大型艦艇是用來拒止，但是你們要導入無人載具可以用來監控，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：無人載具在監控上是非常重要的一部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以目前海巡的無人載具規模足以因應灰色地帶作戰嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：不可能。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：目前還不夠？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：目前水下幾乎是零，然後我們水面的無人船目前也還是零。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只有無人機？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：空中的無人機也非常的少。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以要加強，無人機要增加？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：不是加強，而且是要全面布局。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：全面更新，水面的艦艇跟水下的載具都要補充，是不是這樣子？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：是，這個是無人載具的部分，包括我們的艦船艇部分也要開始啟動下一個階段的造艦計畫。要跟委員報告的是，我們好不容易在有歲計賸餘的時候就開始在內部溝通，一直爭取，我2月時發的那個新聞稿，那個時候我就已經在爭取了。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：是，我們全力支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：所以當行政院願意把我們放進來的時候，我跟委員講一個事實，我們有一位副署長他是用什麼語言…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：我現在要打斷主委一下，因為我後面有更重要的事情要請教你。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][1] |
過去臺灣的對外貿易是針對消費性的電子產品，臺灣生產關鍵零組件，到低成本的國家去做組裝，然後銷往美國，造成對美國的大量順差，這讓美國很不高興，但是接下來我們的軍用商規無人機，以副部長來看，如果是在美國生產關鍵性零組件，到臺灣組裝後，不銷往美國而是銷往其他的盟國，請問兩位次長跟副部長，你們覺得這個產業鏈的發展趨勢會不會是這樣子？先請教何次長，過去的趨勢是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
何次長晉滄：過去的趨勢確實是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：就是銷到美國去，創造我們對美國的順差、美國的逆差。再請教副部長，未來軍用商規的需求市場是在我們亞洲地區、印太地區的盟國，那麼我們從美國買進高階昂貴的零組件，在臺灣組裝好再賣到這個地方去，你覺得這個產業鏈可行嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：這當然可行，因為國際供應鏈要分享，這在現在來講是非常重要的。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！接下來要請教經濟部次長，現在螢幕上列的這些都是過去臺灣產業發展過程當中經濟部創立的產業智庫，這裡面有哪些呢？有紡織、鞋類、食品、金屬工業、精密機械、塑膠、自行車，還有很大的工研院，甚至連船舶海洋都有，次長能不能告訴我哪個是最早成立的？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
何次長晉滄：應該是金屬。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：紡織啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
何次長晉滄：對，紡織。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：最晚成立的是哪一個？是塑膠，也超過30年了嘛！因為有這樣一個產業鏈的智庫，所以臺灣各項外銷產業非常的旺盛，對不對？你同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
何次長晉滄：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：再請教管主委，請問你認為未來的無人載具這個產業有沒有要用到金屬？會不會用到船舶？需不需要精密機械？需不需要工業技術研究院？這些單位是不是都跟無人載具產業有關？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：是，它有個產業鏈在。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：有個產業鏈在且橫跨了這些智庫，對不對？那如果今天針對無人載具成立一個智庫，能夠支持我們今天所需要的無人載具，你支不支持？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：如果說是水上或者是空中，基本上還是會分開，以空中來講或者是水面的…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：空中的有沒有？次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：空中的部分，我認為甚至於我們都可以經由國際合作來介入生產端。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：何次長，你告訴我們目前空中的無人機載具是誰在輔導？這裡面的哪一個？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
何次長晉滄：目前的話，我們的金屬中心。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：金屬中心嘛！有一個航太產業小組嘛！但是它只負責無人機嘛！剛剛管主委說的水面的跟水下的載具，目前有沒有這些智庫來協助你？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：其實船舶中心有部分，但也遇到了瓶頸，大學端也有一些，造船界也有一些，但是整合的還沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以最後我要請教主委，你非常重要，剛剛你說了我們臺灣在應對灰色地帶的作戰上，我們的無人載具是嚴重不足，這次的預算編列中，有一部分是海委會要來強化的，我們全力支持，但是我希望您能針對無人載具，成立一個研究發展智庫的機構，趁這個機會來推動，評估它的可行性，而且能夠透過這次的特別條例包括特別預算，順勢將無人機載具的產業型智庫，我們來一起推動，包括經濟部、行政院都來支持，您支持嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，其實現在google都還有一個新聞，就是教育部鄭部長在擔任中山大學校長時我們就曾經有一個會面，當時就曾經有對外宣告說這樣的一個整個整合的力量是需要的。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以很清楚的，今天您身為海委會的主委，剛剛也是幾乎語帶哽咽的表達說我們海委會、海巡在應對灰色作戰地帶的滋擾時，真的是心有餘力不足啦！我們需要有很多資源的投入，那我們是不是也來支持成立這樣的機構，來幫助形成這樣的產業鏈？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
管主任委員碧玲：這筆預算的初步當然一定要先採購，讓我的量能充足，但是中長期的話，對我們整個產業鏈的發展非常重要的就是需要委員剛剛說的這個。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：請問柏副部長，你願不願意看到有這樣的一個智庫成立，來支持我們的軍用商規的無人載具產業鏈？ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我覺得這是一個很好的構想，可以研究。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！何次長，從你們經濟部過去的經驗，輔導過那麼多的智庫，是不是真的對我們臺灣的外銷產業有幫助？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
何次長晉滄：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委、次長，也謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][1] |
現在休息30分鐘。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][2] |
休息（12時22分） |
| gazette.blocks[77][3] |
繼續開會（12時55分） |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
主席：繼續開會。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][1] |
現在請李坤城委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
154 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
41 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-05-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1144901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1144901_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、
本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委
員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院
委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答） |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1144901_00002 |