| IVOD_ID |
161346 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161346 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T11:30:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T11:46:04+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b6b2d5869b48fb6acfe24093ee94bb685ab8e08a4c8c9179294e5bb3b82232aca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:30:05 - 11:46:04 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】
【5月14日及15日二天一次會】） |
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| gazette.lineno |
902 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
劉委員建國：（11時30分）謝謝主席。有請環境部彭部長。 |
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主席：請彭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
彭部長啓明：召委好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
劉委員建國：部長好。部長今天被肯定多過被質疑、批判。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
彭部長啓明：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
劉委員建國：這點要跟部長恭喜，也代表環境部在部長的帶領之下，對於相關的因應還有積極的作為受到委員會，應該是多數委員的肯定，這是其一；其二，也要請教部長的是，如果詢問你一些比較沒有挑戰的事情，你會不會覺得比較有氣無力？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
彭部長啓明：請委員舉例是什麼事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
劉委員建國：有兩件事情，以第一件事情來看，剛剛前召委黃秀芳委員有特別跟你提到垃圾焚化爐處置的過程，我當主席的時候也聽你講，它還是要回歸到地方政府，屬於其相關調配的權利，但是我也提醒過並不是這樣。過去的政策是一縣市一焚化爐，在八十幾年的時候，當時全國竟在一縣市要一座焚化爐的情況之下，要以焚化取代掩埋，當時的規劃竟然高達36座。臺灣又不是中國，怎麼會有36座，又不是36省，對不對？不管它後來的行政區域怎麼合併調整也不可能有36座，所以當時的政策儼然有非常錯誤、誇大、擴大、不實的狀況。一直走到後來，當時的環保署自己去調整、修正才從36座直接砍了10座，砍了10座之後，那時候就變成有26座已經……不管是公辦民營，還是民辦民營，從BOT到BOO等之外，還有2座，是26加2，其中就是在講的第27座，那一座是在臺東，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
劉委員建國：但是它當時給臺東的這一座叫做「備而不用」，因為坦白講，26座焚化爐要處理臺灣所衍生出來、產生出來的，不管是家戶垃圾，還是事業廢棄物都已經綽綽有餘了。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][1] |
然後第28座在哪裡？是在我的故鄉雲林，叫做「林內焚化爐」，當時我們說它「妾身未明」，後來又更正了這4個字，因為它是環評做假被抓到，然後當時相關的首長被判刑，甚至都去執刑了，也都執刑完畢了，所以最終這個第28座不叫「妾身未明」，而應叫做「被判死刑」，它絕對沒有辦法再死灰復燃。因為就像剛剛林淑芬委員特別提到的，對於你的舊權利不去履行，然後你造假，想要再去在地、現地重啟環評，那個造假的環評怎麼有任何的條件符合？所以被當時的法院判決這個環評實屬無效，除非你當時被判決的這個因素被廢棄，才有再提原地重啟環評的機會，不然就是沒了。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][2] |
細節我就不再贅述了，那個時候全國就已經確定，不管是公辦公營還是民辦民營就是這26座，奈何不曉得又有什麼原因，臺東這一座從備而不用，變成現在正式再啟用，所以又加1了。這個中間，民進黨再度執政的時候，就是小英當了總統以後就找了環保署，包含經濟部，開了相關的會議之後，決定要去更新整個將近十多年、20年的這些焚化爐的設施，所以我們也匡列了滿多的預算，這個預算也是來自中央、也是來自當時的環保署。但哪有錢補助給人家卻統統沒有任何的指揮權，也統統沒有任何的調度權，統統還是要依照地方政府想怎麼樣就怎麼樣，它想讓事業廢棄物的收取量大過於家戶垃圾，竟然就可以自己去決定，然後環保署完全沒有辦法掣肘、完全沒有辦法去指揮，這樣會牽涉到什麼？這就牽涉到修法了，對不對？所以在107年大家就一直討論，當時我們跟署長、跟副署長、跟相關主管機關的同仁坐下來，討論如何讓焚化爐的目的事業主管機關回歸到中央的環保署，就是現在的環境部。絕對沒有今天中央補助錢，連更新設備，通通是中央全額補助，我們竟然沒有任何調度權，這講不過去嘛！所以廢清法第二十八條部長可能要再看一下，非常清楚，也就是處理家戶垃圾有餘裕的時候，才可以另收取其他的事業廢棄物去處理，這非常清楚，連相關對應的罰則都有訂出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][3] |
所以我請部長可能要小心，當有委員在垂詢你這個事情的時候，這絕對不是地方政府可以直接不聽中央的指揮調度，而且我們把那個法律訂得是非常非常必要性的，是授權給中央主管機關有這樣的權力及權限，相對的，補助還是在中央。我是提醒部長有這件事情，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
劉委員建國：好。第二件事情是剛剛特別提到，依據環境部頒布的「綠領人才就業趨勢報告」，我為什麼說綠領人才是未來臺灣的綠巨人？講這個就是來呼應部長的積極作為，2024年全臺有近3,600家的企業釋出綠領職缺，不少嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
劉委員建國：平均每月需求高達2.2萬，這個人才缺口直追AI產業的2.9萬人，會不會超越？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
彭部長啓明：我認為會。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
劉委員建國：會，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
劉委員建國：好，部長也認為。未來隨著法規的趨嚴與國際減碳壓力的升高，預估未來5年綠領職缺將有1到3倍的成長空間，AI未必有，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
劉委員建國：所以我們絕對有機會超越。市場對於具備碳管理與減排知識的人才需求將持續攀升，因此環境部在3月成立所謂的淨零綠領人才培育聯盟，在北、中、南、東四區設立區域培育中心，結合國內28所大專院校，讓民眾就近可以接受綠領人才的培訓課程，沒有錯嘛！ |
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彭部長啓明：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
劉委員建國：你看部長及劉院長、大家笑得合不攏嘴！讓我們看到綠領人才未來的希望。同時在4月1日開放第一班的課程上網報名，名額40人、名額只有40人，開放16分鐘就額滿，跟搶演唱會的門票一模一樣，所以部長會講上這個課程就像買一張很好的、不會下跌的股票。這是部長說的。這麼夯的課程，我想應該所有委員都會支持部長去推，尤其這麼好的課程，也一定要照顧弱勢，因為窮不能窮到教育，部長應該可以認同嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
劉委員建國：整個培訓課程有48小時，學費1萬2,000元，但是對於一般家庭，也是有一點點小小的壓力，所以環境部還針對青年學子、弱勢的提供了什麼？為鼓勵更多青年與弱勢族群參與，課程提供以下學費優惠方案：30歲以下大學、碩博士在學生，享有半額補助（6,000元）；低收入戶享有全額補助（1萬2,000元）。沒有錯嘛！ |
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彭部長啓明：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
劉委員建國：對，這要給部長特別肯定，但有低收入戶，為什麼沒有中低收入戶？這個就很難肯定，對不對？ |
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彭部長啓明：經費的關係。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告一下，因為經費的關係，所以今年…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉委員建國：你們的經費因為被立法院刪掉，所以就要捨棄中低收入戶？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
劉院長宗勇：因為經費上要籌措，所以當時就先以這樣的規模來定，但是一段時間會檢討，到時候看看經費額度，我們再做調整，大概會這樣子。 |
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劉委員建國：對啦！但是有時候就有樣學樣，沒樣自己想就對了，而這是有樣可以看的，如果我們對比教育部的學校學雜費減免辦法第三條規定，低收入戶學生免除全部學雜費，中低收入戶學生還有減免學雜費60%，對嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
彭部長啓明：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉委員建國：那我們為什麼不能比照辦理？因為你上面有一個減6,000，這一個等於是減7,200，這個會很多嗎？有評估過嗎？如果都沒有，就說經費不夠，所以先低收入戶，中低收入戶就不要，那不是很奇怪？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
彭部長啓明：委員，我們明年如果有碳費，有一些預算的話…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉委員建國：我們不能等到明年，窮就不能窮教育，窮也不能做這樣的補助，又有這樣差別對待對象…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉委員建國：這個不屬於彭部長的個性，這個也不是很大的挑戰，如果這個經費讓你們覺得很少，反而是讓部長有挑戰，而部長應該可以挑戰成功啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告一下，我們現在可以再去籌措一些錢，再來調整這個補助的辦法。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉委員建國：對啦！對啊！對啊！對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
彭部長啓明：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉院長宗勇：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
劉委員建國：不只中低收入戶，還有身心障礙者，各位不要誤會，一般都會覺得是中低殘，但是中低收入戶不一定是殘，中低殘的朋友當然你更需要去照顧，只要你把中低收入戶放進去，這些全部照顧得到，但是對身心障礙者，部長，你的第一個對象是30歲以下大學、碩博士在學生，就可以享有，你知道身心障礙者其實在我們這樣的職場是非常非常困難的，你這個只是一個鼓勵，也不一定會很多人來報，我講真的，但是我們就把這個可以照顧的對象開闊一點，這個不為過，好不好？是不是可以思考一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
彭部長啓明：好，我來挑戰一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
劉委員建國：好啦！你絕對禁得起挑戰，所以我們就要求一週內，窮不能窮教育，要針對這個課程減免的辦法重新再做一些研議、更正，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
彭部長啓明：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
劉委員建國：我接下來要講，你看你補助這些在學的大學生、碩博生，提高青年學子願意來上課的意願，4月1日第一班是秒殺的，部長可以看4月26日在國立臺灣師範大學首次上課的相關統計資料，平均年齡是37歲，社會人士是八成以上，具碩士以上學歷者達73%，學員職業有工程師、業務人員、行政助理、會計、總務、大學教師等，這個我們補助一半啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
彭部長啓明：沒有，30歲以上就1萬2,000元，都1萬2,000元。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
劉委員建國：對啦！我是寫平均37歲，30歲以下的補助一半嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
彭部長啓明：對、對、對。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
劉委員建國：你不要「撿我的話尾」，馬上給我打回來…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
彭部長啓明：不好意思、不好意思啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
劉委員建國：我是不會像林委員這麼會記恨。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][1] |
你看這個參與率就這麼高，所以我覺得是不是要對接勞發署？我剛才是用教育部來做比喻，現在勞發署有一個叫做產業人才投資計畫，補助參訓勞工80%或100%的訓練費用，每人3年內最高補助10萬，環境部這樣的計畫就應該跟勞動部好好對接，讓勞工在進修的時候可以使用這樣的補助計畫，可以吧！你們有坐下來說過嗎？有協商過嗎？有協調過嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
彭部長啓明：有，洪部長有跟我約時間了，要來討論這個事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
劉委員建國：有約，但是還約不到，所以還沒有討論？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
彭部長啓明：有約好時間了，但是還沒開會，這個禮拜就會開會。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
劉委員建國：就還沒有開，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
彭部長啓明：還沒有開。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
劉委員建國：你們兩個很難約，我可以幫你們約，我也可以當電燈泡。但是底下的幕僚都還沒有作業嗎？不可能吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
彭部長啓明：有討論了。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
周主任國鼎：立法院一開完會，我們至少跟勞動部已經開會4次了、已經4次了。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
劉委員建國：已經有4次了，所以到現在是議而不決，還是兩部之間的相關思維及行動都還有很大的落差？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
周主任國鼎：還差細節的問題，主秘可能可以講的更清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
劉委員建國：請主秘簡單回應，因為時間超過了。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
施主任秘書淑惠：跟委員說明一下，如果是在產投計畫，現在這32所學校裡面其實有17所學校是可以在我們的產投方案裡面去對接這樣子的補助資源，其他學校如果後續有開班，我們再來協助運用這個產投方案的計畫來補助。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
劉委員建國：我請教兩位，一樣也要請問部長，如果這個計畫你們趕快去擬訂出來，讓失業的勞工在淨零綠領人才培訓課程認證之後進入到這個領域裡面，對整個失業有沒有幫助？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
彭部長啓明：這當然幫助很大。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
劉委員建國：對嘛！好嘛！你看勞發署也有一點點經費，這個計畫如果你們研擬好之後，對整體也會有幫助，怎麼兩部的部長不趕快坐下來就定了？就趕快實施，可以吧！這個應該不太有挑戰，還是很有挑戰？還是誰要出比較多錢，還是怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
施主任秘書淑惠：在我們的產投計畫中就可以支應這樣的經費。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
劉委員建國：可以支應這樣的經費，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
施主任秘書淑惠：就是細節的部分要如何介接這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
劉委員建國：既然有錢，你們在細節方面還要談這麼久，而沒錢的還要去想辦法有錢，不對吧！1個星期內，可以吧？環境部與勞發署共同研議勞工進修及失業勞工的相關補助計畫，可以吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
施主任秘書淑惠：可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
彭部長啓明：1個禮拜。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
施主任秘書淑惠：組長那邊也說可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
劉委員建國：組長說可以，好。對不起，我這邊就修一下，第一，要求環境部及勞動部針對淨零綠領人才培訓課程於1週內重新研議相關的減免辦法，應該納入中低收入及身心障礙者。第二，1個月內環境部與勞動部勞發署共同研議，提出勞工進修及失業勞工的相關補助計畫，OK，謝謝。謝謝部長、謝謝署長，1個月已經改為1個星期，這樣才有挑戰，謝謝部長及主秘勇於接受挑戰，謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
主席：好，非常感謝我們最溫暖召委的發言，也謝謝部長這邊的答詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][1] |
下一位林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][2] |
下一位葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][3] |
下一位請伍麗華委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
446 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-3-26-11 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
369 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-05-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1145001 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1145001_00011 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展
與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟
部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化
物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1145001_00015 |