| IVOD_ID |
16105 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16105 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024071615 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-16T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-16T12:51:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:21:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0bd97b3c8d7fbd6d09b5fa2f296a9353428aaa308df9ea3733e42fd0aa17333025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：研商有關「本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議『立即解除人民組團赴大陸觀光之限制，並優先開放大陸觀光客循小三通赴金馬澎三離島縣旅遊觀光』，請公決案」、「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」、「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」、「警察人員人事條例」等四案（國民黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 12:51:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
4400.77 |
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4417.448 |
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謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝好 非常謝謝先介紹一下我們列席的貴賓我們今天陸委會歡迎李副主委歡迎我們交通部歡迎陳次長歡迎還有各位列席的官員大家早安 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
4418.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
4438.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
各位黨團幹部我們現在繼續把握有限的時間我們繼續協商進行國民黨團建議院會作成決議立即解除禁止人民組團赴大陸觀光之限制並優先開放大陸觀光客循小三通赴金馬澎等三個離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
4441.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
4458.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
現的旅遊觀光本案於五月十一日十三日經第一會期第十三次會議決定近乎二讀並由國民黨團負責召集協商本席應國民黨團請求進行本案首次協商針對我們本法案的內容先請國民黨團請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
4462.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
4487.532 |
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主席我想先進行一個會議詢問請問為什麼這個院長親自主持的協商這兩個相關部會陸委會及交通部都是由副首長參加請問這個我們陸委會主委跟我們交通部部長有什麼更重大的事情這個院長我們立法院院長親自主持的可以先說明一下嗎陸委會主委陸委會副主委請說一下你們主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
4488.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
4500.599 |
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抱歉抱歉因為今天主委十點鐘有一個外賓所以外賓比立法院還重要嗎?因為那個是早就約大陸來的是嗎?入委會嘛外賓就是入委外賓哪裡來的外賓? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
4501.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
4527.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
哪裏的外賓?金門縣喔?金門縣縣長喔?其他國家跟陸委會當然可以拜會,有比立法院重要嗎?不好意思,因為我們今天是九點四十開始那他是十點鐘,那個他早就約好的院長這個,他們有決策權嗎?副主委還有交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
4529.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
4548.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請交通部主席回答我跟委員報告一下我們部長今天呢上午是陪同總統然後視察這個氣象署視察對對對因為氣象署是我們交通部一個很重要的一個業務所以今天總統這個我稍微可以接受一點陪同總統而且時間剛好是十點十點 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
4551.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
4570.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
陳宇峥委員的質詢,柯建民總統有話要講,請我們今天是草野協商,隨便問,就是三大政黨的立場表示展示當然他們屬於變動說明的角色,不過進一本題,我想這個原則大家都很清楚,我們會表現我們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
4572.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
4585.951 |
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並不是說他們立場怎麼樣會改變我們就是大家共同決議 不行就改變會改變我的想法 不會改變你會改變我我不敢做出這樣的期待啦 大家說今天就開始不是啊 這是沒準中啊 欸 院長主持捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
4586.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
4591.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主責機關的部長一定到嘛你說其他機關可能是次長來但是主責機關的部長一定到啊這最基本原則啊立法院的尊嚴可以這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
4614.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
4615.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
今天不只是對立法院面子民進黨民眾黨國民黨團的面子 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
4630.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
4638.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
而且這本來就是我們討論事情本來就應該啊難道民進黨團可以接受這樣子嗎民進黨團已經討論在你可以接受這樣子嗎總召大小生什麼東西啊我沒有大小生我是譴責一下我邀請我們執政黨團總召譴責一下這樣的行為吧譴責一下這種不尊重立法院的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
4658.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
4672.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
林國成委員舉手請表達意見我們還是要建議院長主持的會議其實首長理應一定要到 不到一定要召會院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
4673.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
4701.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
立法院經驗的問題但是因為既然今天啊有些陪了總統有些那個那確實是有要務但是還是要召會所以我要請教我們院長有沒有召會你如果沒有的話我還是建議啦齁我還是建議以後真的院長主持會議首長一定要到這是一個禮數對立法院一個尊重好不好謝謝我們傅坤祺總召舉手請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
4709.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
4731.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
謝謝院長這幾天的辛勞我想這個會期大家不管風風火火走到會期的最後一天大家也在摸索互相認識但是最重要就是國會殿堂要有最基本的一個尊嚴所以對於這麼重要的一個草以協商而且各政黨代表都在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
4733.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
4753.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我想匯齊到7月16日是我們兩三個月就已經訂好的事情行政院的各部會包括院長在內包括總統在內都知道說這幾天是密集的草以協商對不管是國家重大法案還是民生建設都是在這幾天要做成決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
4755.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
4775.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
希望是非常和諧的、理性的討論,行政單位也能提出確實的意見,讓大家起來探討,作成最後的決議。所以,比較好奇的就是,明知道今天是7月16日會期最後一天,而且有重要的協商,我相信賴希德總統一定會有這個雅量, |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
4777.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
4802.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
去看什麼重大的建設由院長副院長陪同行政院院長副院長陪同或是部會的次長陪同他大可不必啊這個部長必須要在這裡啊必須要來這裡啊來做一個說明的時候啊反而選擇退出而且剛剛我最不能接受的是大家一起在請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
4805.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
4828.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個院長還院長就是這些部會首長請假的時候我們的會議主席院長知不知道看起來剛剛院長的表情是並不知道這個事情所以我覺得柯總召這個事情大家就要討論一下因為不管是議長剛才講得很清楚不然應該要跟院長請個假這是基本禮貌嘛所以柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
4832.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
4854.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以現在我要特別強調執政是大家輪來輪去但是在國會不管哪一個黨大家要互相收驚民主公家的因為國會並沒有這麼小所以國會小的話柯總召也變得很小我們都很小 對不對所以這個事情因為我們代表百分之百的民意各政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
4855.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
4868.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以今天如果說我們本院、立法院、韓院長都不知道說為什麼這幾位部會所長沒有來也沒有跟院長請假這是不應該的這是不應該的因為大家一直維持我們和諧的氣氛 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
4872.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
4874.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
柯總召對於兩位部長沒有來你意思表達讓我們聽一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
4888.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
4908.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我剛才也講很清楚立法院在草案期間第一個各位首長都要來因為對他的重要法案的預算很重要所以每個會期到最後由於這個時候是這種時刻各位首長一定知道那這個可能有糾葛他要來如何解釋當然捷運潛在我們所以我們捷運潛在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
4912.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
4928.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以母來一定要給院長請個假這是一定的啊你不要譴責他噢沒有意見這個慣例早就堅持在先了嘛啊今天我不知道他們為什麼沒有放這種錯誤也是死死不應啦我也不知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
4930.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
4959.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
沒有啦 我不知道他有沒有 院長請假謝謝 謝謝謝謝 麻煩兩位次長回去以後轉達那我們也會責成我們秘書長這邊所有以後才有的協商議事處這邊會通知我們正式的部長要到臨現場表達對立法院的尊重以及對自己部門部的尊重好 現在我們繼續回到主題請國民黨團請說明這次我們提案開放整個觀光的限制請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
4962.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
4988.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個大家都知道這個之前交通部宣布這個禁團令就今年二月以前嘛本來是選舉那個時候大家都期待說尤其國內的這個觀光業者都抱著滿心期待希望是說在這個新的總統上任以後那這個當初也曾經一度說要開放開放就是說就是讓這個兩個部分觀光旅遊分成兩個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
4990.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
5013.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟大陸相關的部分 一個是往大陸去 一個是迎接客人來有關出國的部分 本來觀光業者 而且本來你們的部裡面的意見也是說要開放的沒有想到莫名其妙突然宣布到六月份 就是說六月份以前的都是可以的你招攬過什麼都是可以 但六月份以後不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
5014.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
5030.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你們這樣子不行雖然現在我們來講一個觀光業的實況實際上大家都是比如說可能就是到大陸去然後賞客去那邊可能集結成團但是這個算是造成觀光業者的這樣的操作是造成國人赴外旅遊的一種這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
5033.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
5059.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不安全或以法律上來講保障變少事實上不管是國人出外去觀光或者我們歡迎客人不管從世界各地哪裡來觀光都是對觀光部尤其是觀光署來講對交通部觀光署來講都是很正面性我們現在的觀光人口一直沒有辦法上升我前幾個禮拜去國內一個知名的景區有一個觀光飯店的業者跟我算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
5060.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
5081.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
幾乎快要枯樹他說他經營觀光飯店他經營飯店五十五年來從疫情到現在這一段時間是最慘的時候是最艱難的時候這是這個國內在宜蘭那個地方他說從來沒有見過這麼慘的時候因為客人不足尤其現在國旅最近開放大部分大家都出國去但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
5082.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
5086.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
沒有客人進來 如果入客當然幫助很大所以說這個希望趕快來開放第二個我講我們金馬澎尤其我們金門基我們金門基真的是觀光產業現在真的是非常非常的慘不要說小三通前幾年因為疫情期間沒有開放那個時候我們每一年損失二三十億台幣就相當一億美金的觀光產值 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
5107.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
5111.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
議會我們還期待觀光可以開始欣欣向榮臺灣的旅客過來、大陸旅客可以過來恢復以前、以往這個日子的時候沒有想到現在還沒有辦法迎來這樣的日子各個產業連動勢的整個金門地區都落入這個所有的產業都落入那個愁雲慘霧的情況所以為了民生經濟考量我想請求這個我想請這個當然民黨的委員在這裡我們這邊也有委員也了解金門的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
5138.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
5166.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
針對第一個就是解除禁止人民赴大陸觀光之限制就是所謂大家俗稱那個禁團令我想國內觀光業者也是呼籲再三這個部分我想說這個請大家一起來做成決議讓交通那個相關部門來這個來這個遵守第二個開放大陸觀光客循小三通赴金馬澎三個離島觀光我想這個部分上個禮拜上個月上個禮拜吧那個馬祖已經有踩限團了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
5167.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
5186.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那所以基本經濟是還沒有那當然大陸這邊也有一些考量但這個我也會去push那重點是說我們這邊是不是在兩岸關係如此緊繃的時候我們雖然已經表示開放了所以我想這個應該是已經表示是贊成的意思立委會應該也是表示贊成的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
5186.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
5213.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
但是我覺得還是應該做一個比較嚴正的聲明公開的說明我想最近慢慢從旅展方面這個旅展有讓大陸的相關的文旅廳的相關人過來然後還有這個7月20號即將進行的這個金夏永渡也有讓一些福建省體育局的人過來我想這是初步的慢慢釋出善意那如果我們更大幅度的就不是大幅度就是把你的政策立場我今天為什麼主委沒有來就是因為主委他事實上比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
5214.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
5233.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
比較了解整個政策副主委也是很熟悉啦我也不能說他不熟悉但是主委畢竟是做決策的人那可以今天可以在這裡更清楚的說明讓這個相關的報導知道說我們這邊事實上一直有在四處善意我想這個對兩岸的往來會是一件非常正面的事情以上所以這個決議我也請這個民進黨團還有民眾黨團一同支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
5238.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
5241.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
謝謝接下來柯建民總召發言然後請林國成委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
5268.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
5287.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們現在要講原因啦我整天一直要促成開放嘛但是你要想一想到底為什麼觀光客不來嘛要講原因大家要比較清楚嘛當然第一個我們不希望說是本末倒置啦這是台中中國的問題啊因為派人來你叫人 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
5290.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
5308.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們沒有反對他,他來採信以後也沒有回應啊我們還辦,這個月還辦觀光旅遊展嘛,我們還十天辦到十五號所以今天我們要講這個原因是什麼請問大家都知道,那最近的歧視也很窮峻 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
5309.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
5338.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
二十一號以後有所謂的這個審度審視台獨的二十二條意見那已經變成橙色的 橙燈的嘛 橙色的燈號大家敢不敢啊這個這個那那國家那國家法律上國家的作為上當然要給人民很多就一些一些警示或是建議看法我這個話讓這個是國家案件上必須考慮考慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
5339.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
5359.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那我們今天來講這個是應該是滾動式檢討不是說以我們金門開放就好你咱們想想看大陸他們對我們的開放從2019年8月1號開始大陸對於個人旅遊全部禁止來台灣對不對我想你也沒有活了對金門是開放的聽我講完嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
5364.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
5369.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好,那到我們女女傳的部分齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
5371.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
5397.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
文理部從七年一月到現在全部禁止新聞過來第一要看一方面的罪犯我們一方面的罪犯我們一方面的罪犯分析錯過零去大陸回來的時間得到什麼得到福建道平台福建道馬祖那個根本一點用處都沒有而平台是高度高度那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
5399.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
5412.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
戰略議會所以他們一直跟我們做統戰你都不思考這個問題我們剛才講過我們在今年五月底以前有存成的部分全部給他出完 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
5415.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
5438.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
已經2月開始到3月到5月之間已經成團了全部給他出去但是後面我們就不再處理了因為他們對我們是相當敵意 都那麼緊嘛現在他要求我們這邊要開 這不對吧所以應該這個 要再想這個原因啦 要想清楚那我比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
5440.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
5462.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
大家想說這個整個政策方向是誰何以自知嘛這萬般有罪是罪在中國不是罪在我們啊所以你應該把這顛倒要建議大陸來開放不是我們這邊開放邏輯上不要搞錯而且一環一個決議案可以來主導國家政策我不認為有這樣的呈現這是總統之權 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
5468.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
5469.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
請林國成委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
5491.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
5495.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想本黨很樂見三黨坐下來談這些敏感的問題但是第一個離島的觀光確實是三個離島經濟主要來源的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
5514.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
5541.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這一點議政委員所講的確確實實是這樣但是當然也要考慮到這些兩岸國安之問題這個基本上我也是支持但是我在看兩岸到底的政策像現在剛剛柯總召所講的如果堅持今天立法院沒有提出這些開頭那 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
5543.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
5556.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
國安他怎麼會去做參考跟考慮所以我個人還有我們黨裡面兩岸和平這些是我們追求所以這些開放離島第一 離島的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
5559.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
5575.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
其實國安的問題是減少的那如果我們今天把離島把它開放那我認為這個部分會有兩岸和平的契機所以我們本黨啊站在本黨的立場第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
5576.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
5594.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
觀光提升是有必要第二我們還是蠻希望未來兩岸和平那更重要所以我是覺得先拋出橄欖枝去那對岸不來那是你的事但是我的善意已經先表達所以我認為這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
5597.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
5613.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
應該大家坐下來好好談怎麼樣把它開端這樣的話兩岸的和平契機是有的所以本黨支持這個案子大家要好好來談支持這個案子謝謝林國成委員接下來請洪森漢委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
5616.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
5644.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好我想其實我想各政黨都支持這個擴大觀光的觀光經濟這都沒有問題但我覺得我自己也希望這個行政部門可以說明一下現在各國都面對這個去中國的旅遊風險的問題這其實不是只是台灣面對而已並不是只是陸委會來公布成登的警示以下是幾個近期這個民主國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
5645.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
5670.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
都提供了警示我念一下給大家聽美國在2023年的時候其實就說了因為中國的國安法所以提醒非必要不要前往這是美國再來韓國的國情院近期也發出旅遊警示警示從7月1號起入境中國可能被任意檢查手及任意拘捕這是韓國 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
5673.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
5699.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
愛爾蘭在5月16日發出警告提醒中國當局可能會對個人實施出境禁令阻止他們離開該國並提醒此類禁令與拘捕或禁令不同是中國法律程序的一部分可能持續數月或更長時間加拿大政府在6月26日更新它的旅遊建議提醒國人去中國會有任意執行當地法律的風險請在中國保持高度謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
5701.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
5729.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
澳洲的部分是在7月1號更新旅遊提醒建議澳洲人民要在中國保持高度謹慎並告知中國當局恐以危害國家安全為由拘捕外國人英國政府也一樣提醒民眾要注意中國政府跟國家安全法我要說的事情是這不是只針對台灣這不是只針對民進黨執政的政府因為民進黨並沒有在剛剛上述這些民主國家都執政 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
5731.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
5739.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
但是對於這些國際上面的每一個民主國家都提高了對中國附中旅遊的警示都在提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
5741.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
5766.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
會有被任意拘捕檢查手機的安全的問題我自己想問第一個我也想請教行政部門我們對這個部分我們目前因應的作為是什麼第二個我知道今天這來的檔當然我覺得也是出於一個好意希望能夠解除這個禁團令但是一樣還是面對這個風險那大家對這個風險的看法是什麼這不是只是台灣比如說你們換一個政黨執政就沒了沒有這些國家不是都民黨執政那大家都面對這些問題那大家的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
5771.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
5781.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們會不會現在讓更多的國人到中國去旅遊反而製造了大家更大的安全上面的風險這事情大家怎麼面對 怎麼處理這個問題好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
5785.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
5787.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
兩岸恢復觀光交流我想只要在安全無虞在彼此善意友善的狀況之下大家都樂見 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
5808.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
5820.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這段時間以來我們就用具體的數字來看一看這個input跟output在臺灣赴陸或是陸方來臺灣的一些實質的觀光人數如果從2023年的話臺灣到中國有176萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
5825.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
5841.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
但是中國來到台灣只有二十二點六萬人這是去年如果以今年一到六月上半年的統計台灣復入到中國的超過一百萬人次而中方的來到台灣只有十五萬所以數字會說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
5843.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
5864.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
就開放性、就彼此的互通、input output我想這是一個很大的懸殊的差異所以問題在哪一方其實用數字來凸顯也非常清楚那第二個如果說聚焦在郁真委員非常關心的這個離島小三通、金馬澎的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
5864.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
5891.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我想也是可以把一些實質的做法在這裡也再還原一下如果說中國依小三通的相關辦法申請到金馬來旅行那原本就是包括在一百一十二年八月政府就已經公布的我想郁真很清楚恢復兩岸觀光的規劃方案只要陸方開放就可以馬上做這第一件事情聚焦在臺灣對於開放小三通到金馬澎這個三 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
5892.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
5919.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
離島的觀光旅遊這第一件事情我們做了是在威挺中方嘛第二個依據中國文旅部一百一十三年四月二十八剛公佈的內容僅率先恢復福建到馬祖嘛但是也沒有到金門嘛所以說如果說陸方對於到金門旅遊的障礙在誰陸方啊他為什麼沒有開放他只開放到馬祖嘛我想玉珍你一直點頭你也很清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
5920.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
5936.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
第三個就是剛剛來的那個彩線團對不對福州市旅遊協會到馬祖的這個彩線團是今年六月底已經完成了OK 如果他們彩線完對於我們的所有觀光台灣確實是可以吸引他們來的話只要他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
5937.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
5958.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
開放那馬上就可以專案審查我想我們陸委會政府的這個態度是非常的清楚所以聚焦在今天這個提案的本題就是尋小三通、金馬澎、三離島觀光的部分其實聚焦也可以看得出來我們是open的只要陸方ok其實就可以達到所以說這個橄欖枝 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
5961.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
5976.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我想臺灣政府不是橄欖枝而已啦等那橄欖樹可能都背在肩上扛出來了啦所以這個東西路方這個對等在等對方的回應而不是只對自己臺灣政府來給予很多的壓力跟這個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
5977.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
6002.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
當然我們要講剛申瀚委員說的時機對不對大家要想想這個時機對不對長期以來兩岸的互動觀光友善的狀況之下安全平等的前提之下這是OK的可是現在這個時機中國公布了懲毒二十二條的這個時機之下剛宏委員講了很多美國、英國、澳洲、愛爾蘭、韓國 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
6005.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
6031.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這國際都在限制．或者是對於國人赴中國旅行．提出很多的示警作為．的這個當下．如果台灣的國會．就在這個當下．做了這個決議．去要求我們的自己的政府．去都開放．那我們除了讓陸方覺得說．你台灣都不怕很好．我這成都二十二條．剛剛好而已． |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
6032.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
6049.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這是第一個對國內造成我們對國人的心理狀態示警還是你是鼓勵大家去你是希望大家安全的前提盡量少去還是因為國會了做成這個決議就是鼓勵大家趕快去這對於國內的視聽是一個混淆第二個對於國際的視聽更是一個錯誤的訊息的傳達 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
6053.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
6067.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
對於中國對於台灣端出這樣成都二十二條對台灣人的安全造成很大疑慮的當下我們的國會做出這個決議反其道而行好像是附和呼應中國這個給 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
6070.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
6087.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
國際社會錯誤的訊息我覺得這個更為嚴重我們不可不慎因為這是一個國會的決議民進黨作為國會的51席我們對於這個覺得非常難以接受在這個所以它不是一個good timing它是一個bad timing最後國安問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
6089.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
6106.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好 剛剛柯總長也講了這涉及國安體系的綜合評估這也涉及行政的職權甚至涉及總統的權利啦我們用一個決議的方式立院決議就要求這樣做我覺得這個層面上也是要多多的考量的謝謝吳司長的發言麻煩請陸委會李副主委發言表達意見 然後請交通部準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
6116.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
6143.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
院長、各位委員陸委會請就剛剛幾位委員提到的一些事項來做說明首先是入客來台觀光的部分其實總統520的就職演說有提到先重啟雙邊對等的觀光旅遊開始要共同追求兩岸的和平共榮所以那個時候我們政府就有把恢復兩岸觀光旅遊列為推動兩岸交流的一個很重要的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
6144.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
6172.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那這個部分剛剛幾位委員也有提到其實消防部跟陸委會在去年八月就已經有對外公布這個兩岸團體旅遊恢復的一個規劃而且在去年九月我們就做好了相關準備也就是等陸方來相對開放我們就可以來落實那同時為了這個促成陸客到金馬來觀光所以各位也有提到我們最近也做了很多努力包括開放讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
6174.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
6179.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
馬祖彩線團、夏季旅展、金夏永渡等對於陸方關切的議題我們也都積極處理當中在這些之後我們也有對外去說彩線團之後我們很歡迎陸方趕快有陸客提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
6198.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
6212.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
馬祖金門的旅行申請我們會依程序來專案審查所以目前入客沒有辦法到金門馬祖或者是台灣來觀光旅遊這個部分的障礙的確是在中國方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
6213.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
6238.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那第二個部分我們要說明就是剛剛也有委員提到就是目前整個兩岸情勢是真的是比較複雜而且嚴峻那尤其中共對我們是採取一個複合式的威脅那他也公布了一系列的國安法規那當然這在國際間又引起了一些關注又發布了旅遊警示那我們是在今年6月21號 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
6240.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
6255.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
中國發布了審讀二十二條意見之後陸委會這邊就覺得國人到大陸去旅遊的風險還有人身安全的風險在提高所以我們就在六月二十七號把附錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
6257.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
6277.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
的這個旅遊警示燈號提高為橙色那這個橙色的意思是要提醒國人在行前要審慎評估去大陸的必要性那當然這個時候如果我們要把這個所有的國人組團赴陸的限制通通都解除那其實它就有一個訊號是告訴國人說您去大陸旅遊其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
6281.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
6303.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
是安心的所以這就會誤導國人對於目前他去赴陸會有人身安全、旅遊風險的這種狀況會誤導他讓他失去警覺那同時也會對國際社會釋放出一個錯誤的訊息所以我們是覺得當前我們這個旅遊的警示是不應該來做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
6305.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
6322.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那剛剛也有提到整個兩岸目前的旅遊開放其實是不對等的那其實我們從來就沒有禁止國人到大陸去個人旅遊或是他去參加團體來旅遊但是陸方他是基於政治理由在 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
6323.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
6337.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
2019年8月就禁止入客來台所謂的個人遊就自由行所以到去年已經有176萬人次去大陸了那到今年的1到6月以後超過100萬人次的國人到大陸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
6338.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
6362.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
在旅行社攬客組團的部分．交通部也在今年的二月七號．有發布一個函令．已經招攬的旅行團．可以在三月一號．到五月三十一號去大陸．行政院的五月三十號．院會之後．交通部有宣布六月一號前．已經規劃的旅行團．也可以繼續去附入．後續相似情形來滾動檢討． |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
6364.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
6382.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
但是路芳在疫情之後也就是從2023年1月到現在他們對於他們的組團社可以帶團到境外去旅遊的部分的國家有138個還有包括港澳但是就是沒有包括台灣所以到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
6384.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
6405.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
來臺觀光的入客人數是零所以兩岸的旅遊是呈現一個相當的不對等所以我們覺得在這個時候這樣的一個決議的確是會牽涉到一些國安的問題那也涉及到兩岸的互動過去都是一直由國安部門跟行政部門共同來處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
6407.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
6414.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們希望未來還是會在整個因應兩岸整體的情勢而且考量國家整體的利益我們來加以滾動的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
6422.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
6443.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
好 院長各位委員那交通部現在就這個議題來做以下的一個說明首先還是一樣這個應該是跟陸委會是一致的立場也是總統的就職演說已經特別提到兩岸可以先從重啟雙邊對等觀光開始我想這是一個整體政府的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
6444.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
6471.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那對於入客我們國人復入的這樣的旅行團的一個期待其實在這個復入旅行社復入我們本來是規劃在今年的這個5月31號指那是考量有一定的數量的旅行團未能於5月底成行然後所以呢為維護這個旅客及旅行業者權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
6471.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
6498.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以我們在這個旅行社特別強調旅行社在今年的二月二日前已經成團或已經規劃組團的在六月一號以前仍然可以出團所以意思就是說到目前這還是國人赴大陸組團的方式還是可以用這樣的一個方式但是以後就是不可以再招攬出團那我們的了解到目前為止這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
6500.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
6520.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
三到五月出去的旅行人透過組團大概有十一萬人次那六月呢剛才講在以前規劃六月出團的大概有一點一萬人所以說這樣的人次還是繼續有在這個出團那接下來要說明的就是說剛才這個副主委也特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
6521.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
6545.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
兩岸的這樣的一個旅遊恢復健康有序的交流一向是政府的一個政策但是有關入客來台觀光的部分就試設這個大陸事務這個整體的一個政策跟評估跟規劃所以為了確保兩岸健康有序的一個恢復交流我們交通部會配合相關的政策辦理相關的事宜就適時來滾動檢討相關的政策讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
6550.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
6568.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
兩岸的觀光業者獲得最大的利益循序推動兩岸恢復民間的一個交流我想這是交通部對這個案子的一個立場剛才洪珊漢委員特別提到旅遊警訊發布的時候相關我想旅遊警訊是陸委會在今年的6月27號發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
6571.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
6595.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
入港澳的旅遊的陳設警示其實代表的意義是避免非必要的旅行所以這樣的一個警示發布了之後交通部跟觀光署曾經多次的向旅行業者或國人特別提醒非必要的話要考慮到大陸旅遊非必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
6596.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
6601.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
要避免前往．要考慮自身的安全．要考慮目前赴大陸旅遊．有一定的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
6620.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
6644.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我想我們今天這個提案國民黨團提出來是一個民生議題但是我們看到這個民進黨團還有相關的單位都是在用政治來回答不過我們還是讓它回歸民生議題來討論然後來聚焦到底大家現在好像因為民進黨團說的都非常好聽這跟昨天健保的點子很像我們非常支持醫生醫療產業但是健保點子絕對不能給他們保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
6648.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
6676.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我們非常支持醫療觀光的業者但是我們絕對要把他限制起來他那裡不能去,這裡不能來非常的矛盾不過我還說幾點這個民黨團對這個對這個整個兩岸之間的這個有關的一些往來的不了解而且說出了道國為因的這個說法2019年8月1日剛剛柯總召說大陸全面禁止自由行不好意思我告訴您2019年8月2日全面禁止自由行後來事實上也是從8月1日金馬澎都是開放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
6676.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
6697.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
大陸旅客赴金馬澎是開放的這個您可能不了解所以我們今天特別提出為什麼要優先開放大陸觀光小三通到金馬澎也是希望說在在兩岸這個關係還這麼不好的情況下禁止的情況下很禁止的情況下從金馬澎先做試點先行先試第二個 剛剛吳士堯委員說台灣赴 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
6700.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
6728.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
大陸是一百七十六萬大陸赴台灣是二十六萬你有說出一些數據所以你知道背景嗎你現在是盜國唯一因為大陸到台灣來因為台灣沒有開放嘛中華民國沒有開放讓中國大陸人民進來台灣嘛這之前我們爭取相同久從小三通的要重啟到後來這個旅遊團的靠因為就是沒有開放所以才來的人少嘛當初我們沒有什麼過去嘛所以我們去的人多嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
6729.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
6753.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這是因為政策關係造成這個結果你現在把這個結果拿來講說這個你又盜國為虞嘛好 接著剛剛洪聖諾委員說的這個什麼這個什麼這個區域很危險什麼的陸委會要發布什麼警戒是陸委會的職權我們陳社警我知道我不是介意他發布什麼東西而是你們抱著一種為之父為之母的想法來限制人民的行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
6754.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
6766.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
百姓自然會你發布了這個警戒百姓如果覺得很危險他自然就不會去百姓如果願意去他就是覺得可以我想請問交通部菲律賓是什麼警戒什麼顏色的自由嗎菲律賓我國國民赴菲律賓我想知道一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
6773.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
6793.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
是橙色的嗎?還是紅色的嗎?那是外交部在發布的你們不知道?好菲律賓前一陣子還發生幾個人在那邊進去馬上被槍決被那個行刑這個Sayonara的怎麼我們沒有看到相關的部會做相關的什麼警戒不過我也不是要討論這個我們在聚焦啦齁這個提案裡頭兩件事情一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
6794.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
6822.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
解除我國的人民赴大陸去觀光這個第一個那這個東西你們說沒有禁止吧你們現在是有禁止有禁團令這個差別是在哪裡我跟各位報告這個差別是說如果有這個禁團令我不知道教育部了不了解我想說反正大家剛委員說都可以自由去啊也沒有規定你不能去啊你想去你就去啊但是我跟觀光業有詢問的我也覺得很疑惑我說那反正每個人都可以去有什麼好這個禁團令不禁團令有影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
6823.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
6849.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
業者這樣告訴我 或者說你們提出解決的方法業者告訴說 有這個禁團令 如果他們帶團出去的時候他們沒有辦法做什麼保險 是嗎沒有去辦法做什麼 我想了解這個事情就是說沒有辦法去申請什麼旅評險啊 什麼險 什麼險 這些類的如果去大陸 如果你沒有這個禁團令因為交通部規定說不能帶團出去那所以他們沒有辦法向業者提出業者沒有辦法向保險提出相關的保險那如果這個可以幫他們解決 你們禁不禁團其實影響不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
6853.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
6869.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
因為每個人本來就 現在本來我們開放金馬的人民就可以自由要去哪裡去哪裡沒有規定你哪裡不能去哪裡 不然是警戒而已嘛你想去你去嘛但是為什麼建團令業者會一直的我也是跟業者說反正你們想去就去 有什麼好在那邊爭執半天的反正也沒有限制你不能出去啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
6871.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
6878.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那是不是有這件事情我想這個是一個真點啦我們在幫業者思考嘛對不對是不是說保險這個部分如果可以聽他們覺得他進團進團他有保險第二個這是過去的問題嘛過來的問題這句話應該也沒有什麼問題啊我想大家都支持你們剛剛不是有說福建陸委會有說福建的這個這個道馬族的彩線團來我們也歡迎他們到金馬澎來參觀嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
6894.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
6911.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個你們也支持了嘛這個剛我聽起來也都是支持的民進黨也是支持他們到這邊來那這個決議最後半段也沒什麼問題啊差別是我都覺得有一點點差別是說陸委會剛剛說的是說專案許可什麼事情都要專案許可你是意圖造成特權的存在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
6913.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
6931.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是不是有人講就成有沒有講就不成嗎我們要的就是自由競爭的市場就是說任何人就是都可以自由來那國安的我們來講到國安議題那如果照你們這樣子講法的話你們應該就把我們的這個颱風金馬整個海域鎖起來哪裡都不能去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
6932.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
6932.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
請公決案． |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
6948.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
6966.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
回答那個議題,這個聚焦在哪裏?是,我跟委員報告一下,現在那個保險的,如果現在在出團的,合法出團的,他可以保旅責險。你們進團,他們就不能組團嘛,是不是?他們如果組團可以保險嗎?你就回答這樣就好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
6967.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
6991.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那個 因為是一個禁團 所以沒有所謂禁團還要保險 整團保險的問題因為它是 那如果是你個人要去 本來 本來個人個人沒有關係 本來就是個人有保險的問題所以他們就不能保險嘛 對不對所以這個大原則是現在是在禁團令中是啦 所以因為禁團令 所以沒有辦法阻礙所以如果真的有國人要去 想去的話 他們也不能去保險造成旅遊業者操作上的困擾嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
6992.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
7010.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
報告他去 因為進團他個人要去的時候他個人就有保險 團體要去呢他團體現在要進團嘛所以沒有不可以參團對嘛 所以這個進團的差別就在這裡不是像剛剛民進黨委員所說的每個人都可以自由去喔如果比如說我們有一個參鄉團要去拜拜那 那旅遊 要讓旅遊業者來辦啦不可能說每個人都自己去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
7010.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
7025.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
對吧 個人可以去啊 個人可以 那你就是在讓業者可以這樣 比如說要化名為案嘛就每個人用自己身份去 然後每個人自己去保險現在業者事實上就是要做手法你們沒有辦法保障到國人的安全你們了解嗎 實務上就是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
7031.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
7060.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
各位看一下憲法尊重條文第四條第四項總統為國家安全是國安事是總統事項所以以我來講沒有所謂優惠於憲法的問題優惠於總統之權的問題這很清楚嘛我們不要再直接在那邊打轉我真的要在這裡打轉事實上沒辦法講話 我很快不要再直接打轉然後假這個觀光自民 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
7061.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
7089.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
實在是配合中國統戰嘛 這個很清楚嘛這一點我們絕對是這種看法絕對絕對是堅持這種看法你沒有優惠啊 你可以稍微憲法就中委之前 你反正一個一個決議案就叫我們要怎麼做事情嘛今天要做什麼事情所以這一點不要導 另外不要導我的原因啊今天招人這個眼淫水 當中國大陸嘛你應該去建議中國大陸才對啊 怎麼建議我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
7090.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
7113.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 謝謝 我們現在休息五分鐘 請各黨團協商也跟行政部門溝通 五分鐘之後我們開始恢復開會 我就進行處理 謝謝中華民國憲法人民有居住 遷徙自由 總統也是不能違憲的 我跟你說旅遊就是遷徙自由啊對啊沒有限制旅遊啊你都只想這些政治 你有沒有想過業者咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
7120.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
7144.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
然後呢如果要團體去參鄉的那要每個人自己各自各自去你可以說是這麼不符合現實的說法嗎你到底有沒有活在這個世界裡對啊那你可以自由行還不准組團是為什麼那你們去跟中國講啊我是中華民國的立法委員好不好我能要求的就是中華民國的政府單位中方對等開放就沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
7145.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
7150.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
退等開放就是你們應該去講的這是你們的責任你是執政黨這就是你們的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
7151.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
7157.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
中華民國沒有兩部憲法有沒有居住限制自由當然有自由啊當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有當然有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
7177.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
7177.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這國際對等問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
7266.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
7269.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那也是要找到最好的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
7616.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
7643.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好,謝謝,院會已經在等我們了好,謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐各位列席的官員也請坐那,經過協商之後顯然沒有辦法達成共識那我們就送院會處理好,謝謝陸委會跟交通部所有列席的官員,謝謝你們我們進行下一案下面一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
7864.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
7867.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為這個是民眾黨提案的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
7923.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
7952.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
陳次長交通部的你們可以先休息一下因為我們連來進行刑法暫時跟你們部門沒有關係好不好請休息 請休息一下花東快還那個零四零三刑法二八六那個那個喔那是某樣先講不嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
7955.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
7959.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們等一下討論到花東快再請陳次長來就可以了好不好請先休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
7962.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
7991.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
院長有關花東快跟0403齁我們上禮拜有在講很久昨天早上我叫所有部會四個部會都去跟副總統協商那得出四個決議像這個決議改了農村會兩個決議那我們都沒問題簽了那這樣簽了以後代表什麼那0403以及花東快特別條例就測案這個很清楚早上我在這裡簽來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
7994.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
7997.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
等一下花東快啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
8479.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
8487.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
請問法務部的法務部的代表到了嗎?司法院謝謝啊司法院國民黨到了歡迎歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
8870.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
8871.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
8901.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
8927.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 謝謝我們今天討論中華民國刑法我們今天延伸中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案司法及法治委員會我再呼籲一次我們會場保持宿敬好不好好不好 大家請保持安靜好嗎請不要再站來走來走去了好 非常的凌亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
8932.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
8950.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們今天一起朝以協商中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案司法及法治委員會並案審查黃建豪等二十位委員凝聚中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案等十案審查會於一百一三年四月十七日審查完略審查結果第七十七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
8952.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
8974.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
徵定第二百七十二條之一．第二百八十六條及徵定第二百八十六條之一．均保留送院會處理．並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商另院會第十一次、十二次、十三次會議．分別將賴世保委員、陳金威委員．盧憲一委員、徐宇峥委員等．盧明哲委員等． |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
8975.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
8994.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
提案分別禁服二讀各自制委員會抽出禁服二讀與相關提案並按協商國民黨團於7月11日召集協商由吳宗憲委員主持針對刑法第286條加重虐童刑責進行協商由於有黨團代表未出席討論尚未達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
8995.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
9021.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們本次會議協商之條文共計四條第七十七條增訂第二七二之一第二八六條及第二八六之一我們現在先歡迎今天列行的我們法務部的政務次黃次長歡迎您司法院的吳祕書長歡迎您還有各位法務部跟司法院各級官員代表現在我們先請提案的國民黨團請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
9029.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
9052.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員那我想今天我們提案的這個刑法二八六條主要就是針對虐童的部分那為什麼會提這個我跟大家分享當初有一個新聞民國一百一十一年十月十九號有一個新聞就是一個女童遭受虐待變成二成的骷髏的樣子最後那個繼父被判四年兩個月那原因就是因為當時起訴的原因是用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
9053.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
9076.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
殺人未遂跟這個虐童的這個方式來起訴但是在這個要件上面因為殺人未遂沒有成立嘛那最後變成只有虐童但是虐童按照現在最重的刑度最重最重就是五年而已所以說最後因為雖然他這個虐童的情況非常嚴重但是因為你用虐童去辦他只會有四他最後判出來就四年那我想這個東西跟傷害罪比起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
9077.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
9092.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
現行的傷害罪針對兒童的部分也都有加重期刑但對於虐童是沒有的所以這一條我們覺得說虐童的部分當然幾年我個人沒有什麼堅持一定要幾年但是我覺得虐童法義上比起來它應該要比傷害罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
9093.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
9113.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
來得更重所以說因為虐待兒童這個樣態跟傷害也不太一樣當初這個新聞報導裡面法官也提到說在何以廷的法案裡面也提到說就是因為我們這個立法委員這邊我們的法律的要件裡面就只有虐童沒有傷害的部分而且傷害跟虐待的樣態也不一樣所以以虐待兒童這個樣態來講我們應該在286裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
9117.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
9137.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
針對兒童的部分應該要加重它的刑度．而不是用現在的刑度去規範虐待．我想虐待跟傷害在這個構成要件上是不一樣的．所以我們希望說在二八六部分．把虐待兒童的部分的刑度應該要加重一點．以上說明謝謝我們提案的黃建豪委員的說明．接下來請民進黨黨團發言．台灣民眾黨團請準備請沈伯陽委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
9144.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
9171.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 那我先聚焦一下這個很高興大家關心這個兒童的這一個發展那因為這一個 因為這裡面還包含這一個我記得是亮偉翔提案他有一個七十七條然後後面還有這個蘇勛銓委員的提案的一個286之一所以其實有好幾條那我們先針對286那另外兩條的待會再說明那第一個就是根據這些提案會有一些立法例上的一些問題就是說那個歲數的一個規定有點不一而足所以我覺得這個應該要收攏 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
9172.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
9202.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
但是剛好有看到這一個國民黨團的修正動議跟民眾黨團的修正動議都是用七歲這看起來是一個應該是一個正確的方向但再來就是關於這個加重結果犯因為在刑法上加重結果犯是故意加過失那我們看到各黨團的這些委員的版本很多都是把這個致死變成是死刑那通常在刑法的立法例上面致死會跑到死刑非常非常的少見只有在這個三四七吧就是魯仁勒屬因為他本來就已經刑度非常高 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
9202.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
9217.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所以他才會在致死又死刑的規定所以在這邊致死死刑的規定有可能是不符合這個立法例甚至有一些委員的規定他是比殺人還重那就變成一個道德危險就是說他殺人還比較重那他還不如不要去做這些事情那再來就是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
9221.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
9241.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
二八六之一雖然是等一下要討論但是因為二八六之一有一個重複評價的問題這個如果等一下要討論的時候再講那最後呢我想提一下就是如果按照現在新的這一個剛剛有看到國民黨的一個修正動議跟民眾黨的修正動議我先講民眾黨黨團他說這個未滿七歲犯第一項然後呢去加重其刑二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
9242.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
9257.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個是一個比較快速的一個立法方式因為就是一律就是把這前幾項加重那這個加重的方式會跟兒少的這個一百一十二條會有一個不能說衝突但是就是兒少一百一十二條也有加重二分之一所以或許大家可以看法務部能不能夠幫個忙就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
9259.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
9284.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
看這一個跟兒少的規定我們要怎麼去做出區別我覺得這是一個那至於對於國民黨團的這一個修正動議就會有剛剛講的問題雖然他前面用這一個未滿七歲未成年人犯七年以上這是一種加重但因為後面他因而致人於死者直接走到死刑那這跟整個刑法的立法例跟那個刑度平均的方式不一樣所以呢我覺得可能我們可以從民眾黨黨團的這一個版本還有這個民進黨團的這個修正的版本來做討論 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
9289.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
9316.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
謝謝沈柏洋委員的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨黨團發言主席還有各位黨團的代表台灣民眾黨黨團針對286條所提出來的修正動議我們基本上是肯認對於七歲以下的未成年人不管是他保護自己的能力或者是說對於他進行凌虐所造成的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
9317.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
9326.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
都更為嚴重因此針對七歲以下其他的委員所提出來的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
9328.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
9350.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
對於七歲以下的要進一步的保護加重他的處罰的這個方向我們是認同的那只不過說在立法上面我們會去做這樣子的處理是因為有很多不同的版本彼此之間在去調整一二三四項的法定型的時候他 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
9351.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
9377.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
沒有一個統一合邏輯的規定所以我們會認為用加重期刑二分之一的方式去強化他的處罰那至於說兒少法那邊加重期刑的規定他本來就不會用在二八六我理解應該沒有錯啦兒少法那邊的規定是用在普通傷害罪我們之前實務上所發生的問題是普通傷害罪加上兒少法的二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
9379.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
9398.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
做了以後然後286到底還有多少適用的空間上次在詢答的時候我也跟法務部的官員有做過意見的交換你們後來也去做了意見的整理出來所以在286這一邊不會有兒少法那邊加重二分之一的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
9400.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
9409.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我想這個應該沒有沒有什麼樣子的規範重複的問題根本就不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
9410.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
9434.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這樣子的問題兒少法的二分之一是跟普通商愛罪277連結在一起的那286因為本來就針對保護的客體做特別的規定所以就不會有兒少法那邊規範的問題現行實務上面這已經是一個非常穩定的運作狀態了我想這個討論應該是清楚的啦那只不過說在立法的政策上 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
9436.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
9451.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
針對一定歲數以下的幼童因為當初我們擴大保護到未滿18歲我覺得從國際潮流的角度上面來看這是沒有問題的但你說凌虐一個高中生 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
9452.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
9473.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
跟林若一個還在幼兒園的人．給他相同的法定型的考慮．這樣子的一個立法政策．是不是有重新檢討的必要．是不是應該給七歲以下．更沒有能力保護自己．他所造成的實害會更嚴重．從刑法上面的觀點．給他更重的處罰． |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
9475.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
9503.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
讓法官有更多的空間去給他做比較重的處罰才不會出現說剛剛黃建豪委員所在講的法官竟然在判決書裡面講講到好像是立法者的錯那我想我們肯定其他的委員針對286他們要加重處罰用意良善那這個方向基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
9504.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
9520.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們也肯定那只不過說在立法的技術上面我們認為說化繁為簡針對要強化保護的客體用一個統一的規定來強化保護提出這樣子的一個修正動議也供各位黨團還有其他的委員考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
9522.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
9537.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召的發言接下來是鍾嘉斌委員發言之後就請法務部以及司法院來回應回應之後我們會再請委員來發言發言完畢之後我們就會敲五分鐘左右的協商時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
9538.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
9553.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好,謝謝主席請大家把這個程序報告一下,請中央嘉賓委員發言,請謝謝主席,我們新建目前由臺灣民眾黨團的修正動議和國民黨的修正動議呢有趨向一個方向一致的,大方向是一致的,這一點我們是予以肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
9554.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
9568.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那麼至於目前國民黨黨團的動議它在最後一項新增一項的部分呢之所以列入了死刑這個部分跟一般的殺人罪等等剛剛我們沈博洋委員已經說明了恐怕呢在 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
9569.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
9595.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
在行度上跟整個刑法的整個整體體力的均衡性上似乎不太適當我這裡要強調的是說在國民黨團的修正最後一項當中它也將第一項跟第二項意圖盈利與否並沒有做區分這一點我們很清楚在原來286的第一項當中它是六個月以上五年以下但是意圖盈利它就直接跳到五年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
9595.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
9622.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
但是對於第一項跟第二項未滿七歲的犯第一項第二項之罪者他卻刑度是相同的這一點可能我們可以再斟酌可以把它做個區分那如果用這個角度來看的話臺灣民眾黨他們在第五項的部分直接是用加重其刑制二分之一的方式那這個方向上就符合了原第一項第二項所作的區分那可能比較能夠符合我們目前對七歲以下的保護原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
9623.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
9650.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那剛剛有提到兒少法第一百一十二條呢他這裡面呢因為兒少的定義在我們這裡跟我們七歲以下定義的有所不同在兒少法當中未滿十二歲的是兒童十二歲以上未滿十八歲的是少年但是我們這裡是區分成七歲那所以呢在這裡面未來在一百一十二條的加重期二分之一的方式的適用上呢會出現了一個這個十八歲以未滿十八歲跟未滿七歲這個差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
9653.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
9680.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那未來是否可以在我們特別針對未滿7歲以下的加強保護對他的法印與強化這個部分希望待會在法務部的時候能夠就這個部分來予以闡明那原則上個人認為我們目前台灣民眾黨所增列的第五項以未滿7歲來作為加重期刑二分之一的方向是予以肯認的但是希望跟兒少法第112條當中他的加重期刑二分之一他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
9681.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
9690.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
被害者的適用對象．一個是未滿18歲．一個是未滿7歲．如何在良心上再以區隔出特別的對象．這一點希望法務部能夠做一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
9697.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
9721.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是主席還有大院各位委員大家好那我想剛才大家都有垂詢先做說明就是兒少法的第112條的適用跟本條之間的關係我想之前也講得很清楚就主要是兒少法第112條的第一項的但書還有說但各該罪就被害人系兒童及少年一定有特別處罰規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
9722.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
9751.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
重啟規定也就是說因為我們整個刑法第286條他是規定對於未滿18歲之人所以課題剛好就落入了112條的但書的規定也就是說所以現在實務上面確實在適用第286條的時候並沒有辦法再援引而上法的第112條來重複的來做這個加重的處罰的規定所以說我們目前看到目前黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
9752.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
9770.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
各黨所提出的修正動議裡面臺灣民主黨黨團所提出的第五項事實上它確實是可以做一個加重的規定跟兒少法的一百一十二條是不會重複這是目前實務上的狀況我們針對國民黨團剛剛提出來的提案我們也做一些說明我們認為說從未滿六歲改成未滿七歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
9779.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
9806.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們覺得這個是比較妥當因為七歲現在也是我們很多的法令作為一個區隔的年齡層譬如說民法裡面的這個無形的能力到先行的能力那同時在我們目前的學制上面應該也是滿七歲來上小學所以說這個照顧的型態也會有一個很大的區隔所以我們在實務上以七歲做一個分隔點的案件數量的統計也有顯著的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
9807.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
9826.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以這個情況底下我們認為七歲是一個比較好的區隔的時間點至於說這要採取用加重期刑到二分之一還是我們用國民黨團提案是分別來定這個刑度我們會建議用加重比較好因為國民黨團的這個目前的提案這個對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
9829.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
9849.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
法案第一項跟第二項之罪﹑處七年上已徒刑﹑如果我們加重之二分之一﹑其實罪重已經超過這一個﹑如果是已結合犯的部分﹑因而致人已死或致重傷﹑目前所列的刑度其實有一點已經跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
9849.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
9873.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
跟其他罪相比之下又有點太過所以我們會建議說是不是用統一來加重製衛門之一的立法例會比較周詳比較符合比例原則那麼以上是目前我們看到現有的修正動議版本的意見跟大院來做說明謝謝黃次長的說明接下來請司法院吳秘書長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
9875.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
9889.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
院長、各位委員、各位先進那關於這個刑法二八六條這個修正那這幾天我們跟法務部也都有很緊密的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
9892.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
9910.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
互相來協調所以剛剛法務部的意見我們是同意就是從罪責相當原則還有刑法分責的這個刑度的體力來看我們是同意法務部的這個見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
9912.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
9935.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
其實這個跟今天台灣民眾黨提出來的修正動議那個意旨都是一樣只是文字上如何讓它跟一般刑法規定的那個體力能夠讓它更精簡所以其實內容都一樣意旨是一樣所以司法院是同意法務部的意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
9937.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
9950.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
建華次長剛剛司法院的協議秘書長所提到的這個文字體力問題我們可以來協助把它跟刑法其他條文的文字體力把它一致化再提供給大院做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
9951.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
9974.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
看到法務部跟司法院意見一致我們說不出來的高興現在請莊銳雄委員發言請楊瓊英委員準備謝謝院長還有我們各位協商代表其實我倒是這樣建議我們法務部跟司法院這個地方不要不好意思把這些委員或各政黨的版本一次你就把它全部當成一個法學教育把它提出來講這個裡面講的寫的其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
9977.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
9999.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
立法者這個提案可以想像他的初衷是要幹什麼是很討厭這種犯罪要把他加重可是這有些都亂定而且是你們也都沒有盡到說這個在整個刑法體系裡面該怎麼樣來做立法的要去跟現行體制稍微去跟他們做一個示意 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
10000.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
10001.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
他們在拗年齡區跟區隔拗三歲拗六歲然後整個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
10009.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
10032.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們的刑法裡面你也不會去看到什麼一年以上八年以下一年以上十年以下什麼五年以上十年以下那剛好十年以上十二年以下這個都已經亂寫一通了然後你們法務部在那邊又不好意思去講又不好意思去講這看起來這個刑法本來我們的體力裡面就有一定的一個級距在 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
10033.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
10033.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
請公決案 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
10048.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
10072.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那你要加重結果犯那他一定是前面有一個故意後面有一個過失那你後面也弄到全部都是死刑的話那個要弄死刑那就等於就跟故意犯殺人罪一模一樣啊這就聽起來就覺得很奇怪我就不談去談這個兩公約的事情啊所以你跟部分草案去徵定未滿一定連你是三歲到六歲以下的這個286的一個加重期刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
10073.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
10090.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個都缺乏立法的一個依據這個先這樣子一個說明但是呢國民黨版的草案這邊的參考我是我倒會覺得是不是也可以因為你講到未滿六歲我覺得林士明委員可能你就必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
10091.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
10108.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
改了齁 改了齁 別這樣亂啦好不好你們寫這種版本寫得這個讓人家看不懂的版本會提出來本來就是很奇怪尤其是整部法令裡面從這個過程裡面我可以看得很可以看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
10109.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
10125.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
是我要來凸顯一下就是說大家都要回應民意這是一件好事但是在提案版本的時候拜託真的也不要去亂寫一通啦你像譬如說我們立法院我們自己制定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
10126.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
10130.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們弄了一個從過去到現在全世界都一樣的有一個假釋的這個一個原則性的我們除了說你就執行行為滿六個月或者罪犯重罪三證條款那個部分或者性犯罪你再評估危險犯沒有顯著降低這些人不得假釋以外這是我們立法院所定的確立這樣的一個原則大家已經爭論過很久了你現在就把它又把它擴大了擴大說有這一些的全部都不能假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
10152.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
10163.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個好像又有很奇怪的都失去整個制度啊讓萬一有一天那個人有一天可以更新回到社會的一個可能那只是因為現在民氣可用所以把這個路全部堵掉這樣的一個立法例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
10166.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
10170.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我倒認為我真的是岐岐以為不可啦年齡的部分真的不要亂定啦真的不要亂定奇怪我學過的民法跟刑法不是這樣啊怎麼看到的草案都跟原來完全都有不同那至於啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
10181.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
10209.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
台灣民眾黨所提出來的這個第五項那個部分倒是跟本黨這個地方意見都很累都幾乎大家趨近一個想法了像這一些你像比如說你對未滿七歲的未成年人去犯他的第一項第二項第四項你這個後面你說來把它做一個加重二分之一的話我倒認為這個就可以討論就很合理了那至於說一些亂提的法案法務部跟司法院你們這邊都失職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
10211.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
10216.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言請林思敏委員準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
10218.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
10243.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
謝謝主席我真的超感動剛剛司法院跟法務部次長陳儒主席所說的大家方向是一致要怎麼去做但是我也敬請因為草野協商大家也都非常的用心到目前為止民眾黨的版本國民黨的版本以及民進黨的修正動議都已經在大家的桌上 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
10244.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
10258.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這是我們議事組人員都非常的辛苦所以因此大家面對到目前的社會現象是必須要去修改我們的法律去調整讓我們的社會能夠安心尤其我們這些孩子都是我們的寶貝坦白講我們如果這個年齡大家不去給他約束清楚在刑責方面在他們判定也會有所模擬兩可 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
10273.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
10299.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以今天在民眾黨的版本、國民黨的版本以及民進黨的版本修正動議最後都在這三份當中也請我們各位委員大家去看清楚因為在國民黨的版本當中也非常的明定對未滿七歲之未成年人犯罪的第一項跟第二項的罪者那麼非常明定的寫清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
10300.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
10314.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
也就是說處七年以上有期徒刑因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑者致重傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
10317.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
10333.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
是否能夠讓我們的社會更加安定我們提出這樣的論點我們應當就針對這些的論點大家來做共同討論但是我非常感動的是到目前為止針對於我們的這個刑法第二百六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
10335.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
10361.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
當中大家都有一致性的方向也就是以目前的現行法律是不足以來安定民心保護我們的孩童所以我們還是希望能夠在大家共同討論拿到一個真正能夠幫助社會大眾的我們的二八六條的這個修正草案我也非常希望今天大家針對不管年齡或者是加重處分的部分都能夠有一個共識謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
10363.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
10387.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
謝謝楊瓊瑛委員發言接下來請林思敏委員發言郭介銘委員請準備是我想今天很高興我們看到不管是民進黨或者民眾黨還有我們的法務部還有司法院對二八六條的相關的修正我想大家的意見其實大概都差不多了但至於說這個到底要怎麼樣來修要加重執行大家是都意志一見我想這個立法技術的問題就對於未滿7歲的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
10391.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
10418.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
為成年人我們是要怎麼樣來加重他的行動那我想剛才不管是民進黨或者民眾黨法務部都認為說加重其行之二分之一這是一個可行的方向我想雖然國民黨的版本跟大家不太一樣但是我們現在這個尊重尊重法務部尊重我們台灣民眾黨的一個修正動議我想我們會提出相關的一個修正意見以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
10419.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
10439.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝林思明委員接下來柯建銘委員發言沈伯陽委員請準備院長各位委員同仁我想現在討論起來大致應該會齊心一致因為國民黨本來版本已經改期所以是沒有錯但是有死刑無期徒刑一時以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
10442.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
10458.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對,你現在是講長這樣嘛那我們等一下啦現在在做的上有民進黨的版本和民進黨版本以及國民黨版本那既然剛才余思敏講說大家可以來調整那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
10459.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
10478.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
總則沒有改年金改分折,而且這樣屬於共識誌實,所以這樣刑律有死刑是不對的那我希望就是說,大家只要齊一一致的共同提案就好了,好不好共同提案,這樣比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
10481.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
10499.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
謝謝柯建民總召接下來請沈伯陽委員發言許巧欣委員請準備好我簡短發言就好了因為我剛剛結論的時候就有說可以從這個民眾黨黨團還有後來我們提的這一個版本來做修正但我覺得剛剛黃國昌委員可能有點誤會我的意思就是說我們都知道112有但書但是112有但書的狀況之下導致 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
10500.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
10519.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
二八六跟單純的今天傷害去加重的刑度其實不合的所以我們才會認為說要問法務部你如果用下面這個加重跟你用第一項第二項重新調整刑度是不是請法務部來說明看看那當然我還是覺得說真的因為凌虐跟傷害的定義它是有差距的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
10520.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
10530.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以在這個狀況之下還可以接受286現在的法定型的刑度所以我們願意用未滿7歲這樣的一個方式所以補充說明一下因為剛剛這個顯然好像有點誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
10534.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
10556.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
謝謝沈博洋委員的發言在剩下兩位委員發言之後我必須要喊休息五分鐘大家溝通那也跟大家報告一下好我們就暫時截止接下來請徐巧欣委員發言好謝謝院長那我想呢現在大家看起來就不管是國民黨民眾黨跟民進黨都有一個在修法上面比較多的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
10557.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
10581.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但是我同時也要主張一下在原本的國民黨團的修正動議裡面提到包含是死刑跟無期徒刑以及十年以上有期徒刑這個部分當初會提出來那是因應民眾的期待也就是說對於我們在立法技術而言上面來說我們用所謂的加重二分之一期刑隊這是一個法律上的文字但是我們在民間聽到的聲音他們當然也 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
10583.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
10610.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
大多數的民眾是認為如果有凌虐兒童致死的話那為什麼不把他判死刑呢所以我想雖然說在這一次的立法上面我們國民黨民進黨民眾黨最後可能可以達到一個共識叫做加重其刑至二分之一這是一個修法技術但對一般普羅大眾而言大家的期待是關於死刑無期徒刑而且是重罰這一點呢我想我們今天還是要強力的表述謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
10611.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
10636.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
謝謝徐曉英委員接下來請林月警委發言108年的時候在修《兒燒權法》的時候就也並同修286那我覺得真的要去考慮當時實際上國民黨就有提出來死刑可是那時候為什麼沒有因為修法有時候一刀兩刃也要去兼顧到另外一方的需求因為過去不管是拱重案或者是湯姆朗案案他們都是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
10638.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
10666.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
認為說今天我殺了孩子之後政府會判我死刑所以我就去對孩子動了手可能要去考慮那後來一百零八年修正之後的確後來事實上是有讓我們的刑度調高之後的確有果效的時候不要再去用死刑因為死刑可能又造成孩子的權益事實上受到更大的傷害這一併都要去考慮不是單一面的只考慮到說當傷害孩子的時候我們用重刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
10666.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
10690.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
可是有沒有引發另外一個更大的傷害這一邊要考量所以我還是期待是不是我們這次是加重二分之一否則一百零八年討論的時候為什麼民團這麼反對我覺得背後有它的原因所在以上好 我們現在休息大家直接協商之後再請廖偉祥委員發言我們現在休息五分鐘請各黨團直接溝通 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
11246.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
11271.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
謝謝 各位黨團幹部請坐各位委員請坐 各位官員請坐我們現在繼續開會 要宣讀草案協商結果謝謝請坐下來苗栗的邱正軍委員請坐下來好跟各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
11272.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
11298.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
跟各位黨團幹部委員報告一下,我們現在三黨協商結果已經出爐,我們非常,我們請議事人員來宣讀一下刑法第二百八十六條第一項至第四項未修正,增訂第五項,對於未滿七歲之人犯前四項之罪者,依各該項規定加重其刑至二分之一,宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
11305.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
11317.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 我們依照協商的內容我們就通過第二百八十六條修正現在我們處理第七十七條請廖偉祥委員提案委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
11320.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
11346.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
各位好主席好我們當初提案是修77跟272之一那基本上概念上也跟今天主要的方向一樣因為對於這個虐童殺童對於手舞腹肌之力的孩童受到這樣的傷害這都是我們應該要予以保障和提高嚇阻行為的那因為為了有效的在這一次的會議可以盡速的讓我們的刑責嚇阻效率提高所以我們要堅持這個77跟272之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
11349.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
11368.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那對那這個部分但是我們還是希望未來如果這個法務部在統計這個數據當然在立法基礎上體力上我們沒有要檢視這件事可是未來如果社會還是持續發生這樣的事件然後這個案量並沒有下降的話我們未來再不排除再更進一步的修研謝謝好謝謝兩位參議員的發言好感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
11371.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
11378.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
各位黨團幹部各位委員我們就決定不予修正維持現行條文好 謝謝徵定第272條之一我們一樣不予徵定徵定第286條之一我們有蘇清泉等28位委員提案請蘇清泉委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
11406.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
11416.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
第二百八十六條之一不予增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
11433.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
11457.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我現在協商結論跟各位黨團還有各位委員報告一下也跟各位列席的官員報告一下一 第七十七條不予修正 維持現行條文二 增訂第兩百七十二條之一及第兩百八十六條之一均不予增訂三 第兩百八十六條照協商內容通過 詳如附件好不好 謝謝大家因為今天早上我們有送286 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
11463.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
11481.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
還有已經送到院會了嘛,我們就測案,這樣共同,既然大家共同一樣的嘛,那我們案就測下來我們有送七條,二百六之一不予申請,以及這個二百六都有送,那就測案,這樣共同提案就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
11484.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
11510.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那我們就到協商協議院會那個就不處理了好謝謝柯建民總召那我們刑法修正已經好接下來是謝謝我們司法院吳秘書長也謝謝黃市長謝謝司法院跟法務部的關於謝謝我們下面接著繼續來討論警察人員人事條例修正第35條條文及增訂副表3草案等那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
11512.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
11532.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
法務部的那個次長對不起黃次長我們剛才黨團幹部都有一個共識麻煩下次朝野協商請部長來一下好不好請轉達一下鄭部長因為大家黨團幹部都希望能夠部長本人來出席好嗎請您轉達不然要向院長請假好不好不然罰寫一百遍抄寫一百遍下次我本人親自傳講好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
11613.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
11619.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝 來各位參各位來到會的官員請趕快就坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
11638.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
11644.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好各位列席的官員請就座各位黨團幹部各位委員請就座我們爭取時間謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
11667.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
11694.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 謝謝大家請就座跟各位黨團幹部報告 還有各位委員報告我們今天嚴商警察人員人事條例修正第35條條文及增訂副表三草案司法及法制內政兩委員會並案審查蘇清泉等委員萬美玲等委員謝榮介等委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
11694.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
11710.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
王宏威等委員﹑丁學忠等委員﹑顏寬恒等委員﹑鄭天才等委員﹑林思明等委員﹑武力華等委員﹑王宏威委員﹑游皓委員﹑張志倫委員等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
11711.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
11738.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
審查會於一百一三年六月十三日審查完均審查情形第三十五條及徵訂附表三保留送院會處理其餘均由審查結果通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商國民黨團於七月十一日召集協商由吳宗憲召集委員主持針對警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
11740.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
11764.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
調整警察人員退休所得替代率進行協商由於有黨團代表未出席討論尚未達成共識現在先介紹今天列席的所有的閣員與官員首先我們介紹內政部劉部長熱情歡迎歡迎部長權敘部司部長歡迎警政署張署長歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
11768.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
11785.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
消防署的蕭署長歡迎其他關於我就不一一介紹歡迎大家我們現在請各黨團表示意見請國民黨團所提議的請劉許庭委員發言請民進黨團準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
11787.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
11816.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
謝謝主席這個我想在過去審查這個相關條例的一些答詢的過程之中大家都把話講得非常的清楚也就是說我們的警察跟消防弟兄基本上在工作的性質上跟一般的公務員顯有巨大的落差那麼在性質跟工商的比例也皆高於一般的公務員第三考量相關工作環境的嚴酷跟高風險也比較常出現所謂的為勞找退 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
11816.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
11817.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
本院國民黨團提出了相關的修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
11837.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
11854.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
針對最低所得替代率、年增率以及最高所得替代率的部分提出了若干的修正當然在答詢跟這個委員會審查跟草野協商的時候並未達成共識但是我們依然主張最低的所得替代率應與調升年增率應與調升但有關最高所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
11855.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
11881.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
倒是可以這個濁情來做辦理因為考量不管是社會觀感也好或者是各黨團盡量的要達成共識的角度來出發是不是能夠逐步的來做檢討跟改進我們的目標非常單純照顧基層的警消弟兄維持性愛保護原則讓他們有應有的退休的尊嚴跟待遇是我們修法的目標希望在今天的院長主持的草野協商大家能夠捐濟成見盡量的來達成共識以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
11884.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
11890.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
謝謝牛許廷委員的發言接下來請吳思瑤委員發言好 更正請柯建銘委員發言請台灣民眾黨準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
11894.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
11914.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
主席各位委員同仁我們這一次所有零四個法案那在這兩天裡面大家都非常理性在談所以到最後也解決不少問題關於這個警察人員人事條例我大家都知道在委會的時候大家都沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
11915.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
11929.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那禮拜一的報紙有看到侯孟愷曾經講過一句話說這個警察人員條例他們還沒有討論就不助理那自由刷血了那另外一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
11930.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
11959.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那我以為今天就不處理那今天要處理的話可是我還是在這裡要講幾個大家來想看到底我們今天這樣的處理是可以嗎有沒有符合公民正義從第一點來講的話所有警察圍牢我們已經給他到目前為止已經給他比一般的公務人員多了也就是說他平均稅收薪資差不多六萬一 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
11960.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
11979.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
五零萬平均五萬,已經比較多了。然後呢,因公三房一千萬變成兩千萬。那另外就是說,假如這樣的,要處理都做真要,而且危老,事實上,要處理警察危老。退休我也可以找,十年退休,等等。 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
11980.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
12007.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
相對危勞市長也很多啦比如說醫護人員危勞比如說監所的危勞 很多但是我們針對 因為那時候大家基本靈性改革的時候營銷人員發動很大的抗爭那最後法還是通過這中間就是說該處理的去處理 不能比照他要比照金人嘛那金人所得替代率是百分之九十到九十五 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
12008.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
12037.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那假如警察比較驚人的話,坦白講對一般的公民心是發生很大的問題另外一點就是說,退休以後就沒有未來的問題嘛本來就已經給責任比較多了那現在要再加的時候,再加一萬多跟七萬多所以這個我在講的就是說,我們要了解假如這樣的行為加上去的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
12038.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
12057.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
未來政府要多付三千一百一十七億這是一個很嚴重的問題政府要多付錢然後除了這個以外政府要多三千一百一十七億因為退休金要預租的部分又少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
12058.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
12077.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這少一千零九三億另外呢這種結果會造成什麼基金支出要增加所以只一直增加然後收入會減少那當然年金提早破產這是一個這有世代爭議的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
12079.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
12102.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個是年金要我們年金改革以後你現在又還改革然後整個提早破產我們對年金事態要怎麼交代對整個基金將來的提早退休這裡面又牽涉到我還是要講一下雖然講大家會覺得不高興喔我要講什麼?我要講還是回到憲法層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
12104.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
12127.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
立法院提議法案然後政府檢討支出這麼多違反這個憲法七十條違反到另外一個憲法第七條的平等原則也就是說公務員和警察的平等原則差距太大了那我們既然已經給他照顧了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
12128.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
12148.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以這一點大家特別要想一下我認為大家都想做好人但是做好人要不能違憲違法而且失去公平原則而且讓人因體老破產世代不爭議會發生所以我還是建議大家忍心想一想這個難道要表決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
12151.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
12161.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個可以不處理 大家應該不應該處理那最後一定要表決為尊重大家忍氣想一想嘛好 請台灣民眾黨發言 請吳思瑤準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
12165.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
12187.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
沒有,我講過,有登記的,你在5時以後謝謝主席針對有關於針對警消的部分在所得替代率的部分是不是有需要重新調整的這件事情在委員會上面到後面委員會的協商的時候臺灣民眾黨我們表示的立場非常清楚我們支持年金的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
12188.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
12214.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們支持年金的改革那只不過說針對警消他們實際上面在勤務上面的內容的確跟一般的公務人員不一樣這個是我覺得我們要體認的一個清楚的現實那只不過說在所得替代率上面直接把它拉到跟軍人一樣的這件事情它所會造成的財務上面的衝擊我們事實上是必須要考慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
12215.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
12219.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
當然全序部他們現在針對直接拉到 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
12222.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
12248.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
90%的所得替代率的這一邊上次在委員會討論的協商的時候討論出來是它會使得基金用慶的年度提前兩年完成那我那個時候在委員會協商的時候啊我事實上曾經提出就麻煩全序部啊就是功課做足一點什麼叫功課做足一點就是說你試算的時候不要只有試算95%跟90%兩個所得的替代率因為這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
12250.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
12277.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我們聆聽了社會各階層非常多的聲音我們可以很清楚而且負責任的跟大家講臺灣這個社會對於警消同仁的支持甚至他們所提出來的訴求支持度是非常高的支持度是非常高的但是我們也認為在進行這項調整的時候可能不太適合淪於沒有一個實際數字的喊價 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
12279.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
12303.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以我們會希望等到選舉部把各種不同的所得替代率它的試算的結果出來了以後我們再來做一個平衡的、審慎的考慮那所以我是不是可以見請說我們是不是真的有必要急著今天一定要處理我們是不是可以更負責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
12303.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
12328.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
等到選區部把其他的所得地貸率試算對於基金所會產生的衝擊數字出來了以後再來做一個比較審慎的考慮跟評估但是在整個大的方向上面加強提升對於我們警消同仁保障的這個方向臺灣民眾黨黨團是支持的好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
12330.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
12355.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
臺灣民眾黨黃總召發言吳思瑤跟洪孟凱兩位委員發言完畢之後就請全序部司部長您表達意見好嗎好請吳思瑤委員年金改革不走回頭路這是攸關世代正義的問題所以民進黨立場為了維持年金的永續基於維持合理性公平性永續性其實對於這一個修法的提案我們的立場我們是沒有辦法來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
12356.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
12383.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
但是剛剛也聽到民眾黨團的黃總召說他也認為要有進一步的更多思考的空間包括試算的結果那我覺得這樣的處理是可以可以可以大家可以來一起來商量也就是不急著來在院會而且是今天沒有一個精準的試算也相對欠缺充分的討論就這個重大的議案大家想看看當初在年金改革的那個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
12384.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
12405.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
普方成立了年改的委員會討論了多久然後到立法院從各個委員會的審查歷經非常長的討論然後大家彙聚了相對的共識我知道被改革方當然還是有他的不滿的意見可是他是經過充分的討論來落實了年金改革的目標那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
12408.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
12435.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
要把它在針對警消的部分再改回來再提高它的所得替代率就當然也應當要慎思所以以這一屆期這個警察人員人事條例在司法法治委員會之討論過一次那黨團協商也等於就是很快就pass過去我覺得這個都應當從長計議那回到這個議案的這個主要的論述我想還是要再做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
12437.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
12455.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們警消人員跟其他公務人員都是適用同一套的退府基金的制度他的繳費、給付的標準都是一樣的所以他的繳費義務跟給付的權利也是對等的這確實就是要維護我們憲法平等權的原則公平對待所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
12457.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
12480.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這個基金繳費的所有人員這個核心平等的原則絕對不能來漢格所以說如果針對警消的部分來調整了在公平性上是有問題在平等性上是有問題第二點呢我們當然都非常的體恤也都肯認警消人員平常工作的特殊的狀況也付出相當大的辛勞但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
12481.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
12509.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
持平而論政府對於警消人員的照顧他們平均的月退休所得本來就高於非警消的人員而且警消平均退休的年齡因為他危勞的特性也都低於非警消的人員所以說警消跟非警消兩類人員平均的餘命以及可支領月退休金的年限其實差異是不大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
12510.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
12532.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
如果說要提高就單獨提高警消人員的退休所得替代率那你會拉大警消跟非警消的公務人員兩者之間退休所得的差距而警消人員並不會因此而增加他基金的繳費我就說這樣就會造成不公平不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
12533.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
12548.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
然後呢單獨提高了警消人員退休所的替代率就財務的部分對於年金的負擔財政的壓力剛剛我們也提過我這裡可以再精簡的歸納一下如果精算 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
12549.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
12577.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
採行現在五十年的原則合計對政府及基金財政支出的負擔會是3117億再加上668億這樣算起來是3785億這個是增加支出而且會短少挹注給年金的那個破短少挹注了1093億所以我們的退府基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
12578.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
12595.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
在年改之後我們原本期待可以增加一個世代但是它會提早兩年來用盡那這對於所有的退休人員的權益都受到傷害更重要的是對現在現役中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
12596.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
12611.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
警消的工作人員是非常不公平這是世代正義的問題我們固然要照顧退休的警消但是對於現役警消人員的權益絕對不能因此而犧牲葬送 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
12612.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
12637.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那最後一點我想就是他會有其他人員的原比的效應就今天一旦單獨提高了警消的所得替代率其他類的公務人員、教育人員等等、醫療人員等等都可能大家認為要援引來比照所以這樣開了一個門、開了一個破口讓當初的年金改革形同又有另外一個缺口可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
12638.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
12652.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
來做整個制度的一個癱瘓或是一個制度的可能因此而崩解我想這都不是我們這一屆立法委員大家願意面對更是我們沒有辦法負責的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
12653.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
12676.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以民進黨團的立場真的是要懇請大家也感謝民眾黨認為這個議案不應當在今天就來處理年輕改革不能走回頭路世代正義不能開倒車我們真的要懇請我們提案的國民黨團這不只三思而後行這是百思而後行萬思而後行年改 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
12677.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
12704.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
不走回頭路基金的永續我們都有責任拜託就剩下國民黨團的意見了謝謝謝謝吳思堯委員發言接下來請洪孟凱委員發言全序部請準備好謝謝院長院長剛剛本期被提到所以說我一定要做一個正式的回應我在回應媒體的時候媒體的詢問是說在這個會期以前我們總共的處理的事案件到底有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
12705.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
12733.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
當時我們還沒有確定因為那是上個禮拜的事情還沒有確定說我們到底是有幾案我只能講是說國民黨團那時候很負責任的把我們這一次所有的提案以及交由黨團協商或者是說已經一個月的時間的案子都先列出來可是我有一個但書是說因為在這個會期裡面我們也都尊重院長的協商權也因此在院長還沒有協商之前的議案如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
12735.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
12758.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因為院長還沒有協商之前大家還沒有取得一個共識也因此我們不會貿然的提起議事 院會來做後續的處理所以在七月十六以前確實這一條條文沒有經過院長的協商但是今天也看到我們展現了這樣的一個高速的效率也因此今天協商如果說沒有辦法取得 能夠取得共識當然最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
12759.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
12775.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
如果沒有辦法取得共識的話這本來就在我們的討論事項第五十一案裡面本來就可以進行我們相關的一個處理所以並沒有講說我們國民黨團沒有要處理這一點我想所有人大家都非常明白了解我們的議事規則所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
12777.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
12799.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
並不需要扣各自黨團的帽子這我們也講非常清楚國民黨團的立場自始至終我們都希望能夠追求一個更公平的原則並且能夠感謝過去到現在我們對於國家付出的警消等相關的公務體系的人員包括海巡包括相關的部分好 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
12800.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
12823.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這第一個我們先續名第二我們當然追求公平我們當然追求年金永續我們當然追求大家都要有一個更持平的部分那如果說真的是這樣的話那一國就不應該有兩制嗎那為什麼討論到軍警相關的部分人事條例的時候就會有說一定要有這個相關的一個檢免但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
12824.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
12834.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
討論到更重要以及國人更關心更廣泛更全面的勞保年金的時候就是由我們的勞動部長新上任居然直接在我們的衛環委員會講是說那就撥補啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
12836.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
12864.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
剝補也是改革而前任的勞動部長那時候一直強調是說勞保年金一定要改革非改革不可如果不改革的話會破產結果沒想到過兩個月不到520新的勞動部長上任之後就講說勞保年金就是政府剝補政府補補就是改革所以未來政府可以編列一千億、兩千億的預算持續的投入勞保但是對於其他的年金卻有不同的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
12865.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
12882.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這不是一國兩制 什麼才是一國兩制要年金大家一律一律的大家一起來看待要不要改革當然可以討論但是不要用執政黨手握權力卻是對於不同族群不同的年金做不同的對待我覺得這不是一個公平的做法第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
12884.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
12908.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
等一下我想我們很理性務實在這邊討論所以說我也要求說權敘部是不是針對之前我想委員會裡面也都討論很多有一些年金的試算的部分也可以提出相關對應的版本還有我們過去在委員會裡面也有提到了就是說到底現在警政署、消防署、內政部你們的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
12908.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
12936.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我覺得有必要還是要求在院長的協商下再一次請警政署、消防署跟內政部說明一下你們的立場是要為我們過去到現在付出打拼的所有警消弟兄以及相關的公務體系的弟兄來爭取一個合理的待遇還是說就是要放任讓這樣子有一國兩制的一個制度產生透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
12939.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
12960.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
協商的直播全國國人大家關心這個議題的都在看我要拜託院長能夠等一下讓內政部警政署消防署能夠表達你們的意見簡單扼要讓國人知道謝謝好接下來請全序部發言完畢之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
12961.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
12981.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
請內政部準備發言然後警政署、消防署兩位署長也請簡短二要表達立場請謝謝院長還有大院的各位委員很謝謝大院有這個機會讓全區部在這裡就這個議案做進一步再一次說明那我想剛剛這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
12984.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
13007.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
黃國昌總召有提到就是說在協商的時候確實一路講說應該用數據科學來談這個問題那所以上禮拜四做這個協商的時候他還說我們是不是要回去再做一些不同的試算的一個試算確實我們因為禮拜四我們禮拜五就找精算一直來談這個事情那事實上部裡面現在也開始在繼續進行這個可能不同這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
13009.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
13033.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
替代力上限的一個試算不過我想黃委員知道也同意說這需要時間不過我們一定會負責任的把一些數據算出來提供給這個大院的委員做參考我想這是一個這個案子必須要建立在很多事實的基礎上來供大院來做討論可能是比較好的一個方式那全區部呢對這個案子的目前的看法我們是真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
13033.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
13053.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
建議這個案子不要通過我想很少這個部長這麼勇敢的這樣在大院裡面這樣處理那我要講我的理由因為全區部作為主管我們全國公務人員基金的一個主管機關那大家要理解談的公務人員的退伏基金一向就是所有的公務人員跟警校一起參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
13054.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
13082.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那軍人是另外一個基金那所以原來永遠的一個方式就是這個基金如果要永續啊核心的原則就是所有人用同樣的標準繳費所有人用同樣的標準領得這個給付然後因為年改的關係呢所有人也同樣用同樣的方式做十年的所得替代率的一個演進那所以在這個基礎下因為大家的權利義務相當所以如果任何有一個方單獨把它提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
13083.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
13108.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那這個其實是破壞了整個核心的一個最基本的平等對待的原則那這是全區部必須再一次不斷的說明就是這個對基金的運作呢其實它嚴肅的衝擊了平等對待基金裡面所有公務同仁的一個原則所以我想這是我第一點要說明那第二點說明我知道警消同仁其實國人都很支持政府也很支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
13108.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
13134.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那剩下就是說那我們對警消同仁照顧到底是應該以因為他有一些危險危老的特性那是以限制這部分應該多做還是要用退休金的方式去做一個解方那這個部分呢其實從基金的角度和全部的角度來講我知道內政部部長等一些問題在過去的任內裡面其實政府對於警消同仁的限制同仁待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
13135.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
13143.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
還有相關的一些議題．全區部做的是．一些危老．一些配套做．都有在努力那我跟各位報告一件事情怎麼樣增進 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
13145.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
13170.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
警消同仁的﹐譬如像他大域﹐或者工作條件﹐或者工作人力這一部分政府持續在做我105年到111年在行政院擔任人事長的任內其實對警消同仁我同時至少做了兩件事情目前合爭的剩下4200位警消警察同仁其實就在我任內做了一個事情還有任內裡面也做了我們對基層的員警 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
13172.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
13194.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
本來年功奉旨到五百點．現在提到五百二十五點．也都是那時候做．所以其實整個政府．努力在照顧這些事情．那因為危老的特性．我們的．他待遇會比一般公務人員高．那因為一般．現職待遇比一般公務人員高．所以他退休的時候根據現行的制度算出來．他一定就是比公務人員高．所以現行的制度下．其實我們都不改． |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
13195.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
13221.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
他每個月領的錢就是比公務人員高那每個月領的錢會是多高以113年大概是警察人員是大概一百五萬四左右但是後面還會做一點再說調整那我們講的就是說類似這個數字我都必須要清楚的告訴國人他有這樣一個狀況那如果修法以後那那個數字當然因為他是90%不是到95%他的一個月退休金就 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
13222.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
13246.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
增加更高可是公務人員不會啊所以那個差距就會越拉越大那我覺得大家同樣繳同樣的錢然後退休的時候結果領的不一樣這個不是只有對限制同仁的警察人員跟消防跟非警察人員的不平是已經退休的警察人員跟已經退休的公務人員同樣會有這個問題會存在所以我必須很坦白的清楚的這樣一個一個做這樣一個說明那當然剛剛也有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
13251.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
13274.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
執政委員也都提到我們也做了試算至少這一次的試算是以90%為上限或95%就是基金至少會提早兩年用盡那個財務我們都是用50年來估算50年來估算這是因為所有的基金按法律都這樣50年做精算所以我們負責任用50年來估算那個數字都是50年會多這些錢那基金會提早用盡兩年那這議題就是說這樣一個狀況它對財務永續 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
13279.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
13307.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
是沒有幫忙的然後如果說只單獨通過警察結果非警察人員沒有通過那一定原因比照我也跟各位報告說我們危老的人不是只有警察沒有醫護人員有其他還有其他人他們也不會因此這樣去做調整所以這個姿勢其實是很抵擋那如果大家都要比照到90%那我想我們之前做的年輕改革其實就就等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
13308.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
13334.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
就我們當初做的年金改革就是讓整個年金永續的年限至少延後二十五年到三十年那如果這個案子通過再加上後面的原因比照我們可能呢就整個用錢的年薪呢會大幅的往前那個對限制所有公務同仁來講是很不公平的所以我想我是特別特別要提跟各位報告這樣一個事情那當然呢立法的技術上呢我另外提醒兩點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
13336.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
13362.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我在提案裡面有看到就是說它涉及到有些提案是涉及到只限警消人員有些又把範圍擴大所以這個是一個立法技術可能等下在討論的時候也需要去注意另外一個在立法的技術上也提到說已經退休的人未來他的退休金的調整就要跟限制人員完全同步跟同幅度那這跟我們現在制度又完全不一樣那如果按照這個路走下去又是另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
13364.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
13378.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
警消人員跟非警消人員之間的一個不平等的一個狀況這個我想作為全區部委員的義務在這裡也把它做一個說明那整體來講我自己比較真的跟大院建議說照顧警消人員應該是透過對現職同仁的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
13381.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
13404.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
各式各樣的執勤工作環境工作條件這邊的努力給他充實改善至於退休因為他是在一個基金下面我必須照顧平等原則更何況我們的退休金隨著調薪因為每年調薪退休金自然就會有一些調整當然退休人員他的調薪的方式跟限制人不一樣但是他會調整所以也有一定的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
13406.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
13416.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個月退休金的一個金額達到一定的一個數額應該也足以照顧個人在退休事後的一個生活所以我想藉著這個機會非常謝謝這個大院有這個機會讓我做一個說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
13419.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
13439.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
謝謝四部長的說明接下來請內政部劉部長跟兩位署長說明之後就是莊瑞雄委員發言請劉部長好謝謝院長謝謝各位委員對於有關警察人員的這個關心尤其我們有12位委員提案提到有關於35條第一項第四款等等的這個修正案我想我分兩個部分跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
13441.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
13456.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
其實以內政部來講我們現在最重要的事情就是先保障跟保護限職的警消還有包括空勤等等還有移民這些有關警察人員資格他們現在有的福利跟待遇跟條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
13457.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
13482.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那剛剛泉旭部長已經跟大家報告過從一百零五年到現在我跟大家補充說明一下現在限制的警察人員的各項待遇跟福利措施一共有十五項包括他的公益信託基金或是包括這個執勤的獎金或是我們在前上個月的時候才剛剛通過的有關於這個深夜圍牢性勤務津貼知己等一共有十五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
13482.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
13498.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那這些包括加班等等這些大概就是針對現有的現職的警察人員的各項待遇跟福利措施先跟大家做一個簡單的說明那至於在警察人員條例裡面第35條的條文修正草案裡面所明定出來的是針對退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
13500.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
13518.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
當然退休警察警消人員的範圍剛剛全序部已經跟大家報告過有些委員以警消海巡為主有些委員又加進去包括空勤或者是航空測量等機關人員所以在適用的對象上面已經有所不同至於說對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
13519.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
13545.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
警消人員所得替代率的部分第一個我們認為在平等待遇跟世代正義上面很多委員已經發表過他們的說法我就不再追序但是我所了解的部分就是有關於退休的警消人員的部分的話他所明定的職長不是只有內政部而已包括權序部還有包括像行政院的人事行政總處、主計總處、公務人員的退府基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
13546.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
13562.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
甚至各個地方政府他們也必須要付起有關於退休員警或是警消人員的退休金的給付之類的所以它的影響層面相當的廣除了說原來的退休警消人員之外會不會有退休的公教人員也會引起不同的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
13564.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
13578.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
也就是說我們要取得它的協調跟共識到目前為止可能還有一大步有待於我們去努力那再來就是說如果按照有一些委員所提案的部分甚至說所謂的退休的這個部分的所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
13579.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
13603.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
達到百分之九十或九十五趴的時候目前我們預計到的現象會第一個限職的警消人員趕快提退休那會造成現在警消人員會有空洞化也就是說資深的有經驗的他們的警員或是我們警消人員很快就要退休的時候下面的人員能不能補得上那各位委員其實非常關心在歷次內政委員會質詢的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
13606.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
13619.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
現在的警察人員或消防人員是不是要缺額逮捕雖然我們很快就補上去但是不管是因為少子化的現象或者是因為其他的有更好的工作機會所以補的速度不弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
13620.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
13640.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
各位所預期那麼高所以我們在橫憑現在的整個狀況之下還是主張是不是跟全序部的想法一樣主張可以從長計議當然照顧現職人員是我們內政部重要的重點照顧退休的警消人員也是我們應該努力的方向以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
13641.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
13661.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好謝謝副部長的說明接下來請警政署張署長請表達意見副院長大會的委員大家好那首先非常感謝各位人對警察辛勞的這個照顧這一些提案的照顧那站在警視組的立場上剛剛部長有講了不管是限制了同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
13662.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
13680.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我們也都非常這個政府非常穩積的來提供很多的這些的照顧的方案我站在警署立場也非常感謝那同時對於退休的同仁我們有也是有必要做必要一些照顧那我想站在警署立場因為這個的主管機關是在全區部我們會協同 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
13683.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
13694.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
來全進部來積極來做一個積極協調辦理包括這個有關首都西道利試算完之後的結果是怎麼樣我們協同這個全進部的相關的機關來協調來積極來處理這件事情就以上的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
13698.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
13714.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
請消防署消署長完好請院長各位委員大家好很感謝院長跟各位委員對消防體系消防人員的支持跟照顧我想過去一段時間稱呼兩位部長所提到的對消防人員的一個支持跟照顧跟福利待遇有大幅的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
13715.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
13737.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那最近也針對於未來的消防建設也提出二三項的建設總共會建設達到兩百三十億的經費我想對於消防體系的人員跟工作的體系的素質跟能量的提升會有很大的幫助我想消防體系這個會在秉持這個原則繼續打拚努力當然對於退休人員我們同樣的一個重視那我們會協同我們檢證署跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
13742.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
13759.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
內政部跟我們群衆部的意見共同來打拼努力謝謝院長跟國委員謝謝接下來請莊瑞銓委員發言謝謝院長和各位協商代表我剛聽了警政署長跟消防署長兩位署長就是警消界的大家長的講解我倒覺得你們算有良心 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
13763.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
13765.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我在這十幾年來我們在內政委員會裡面幾乎每一次去談的就是我們警消這些危險工作對他們怎麼樣去做一個照顧那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
13776.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
13802.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
不分黨派對我們警察跟我們下班人員我們其實大家都很盡心盡力但是今天這個案子我倒會覺得說大家應該再冷靜一下我舉個例就好了你像譬如說那個年功奉的部分我們就調了我們現在基層的警消你說六指等你現在領的是已經是八指等 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
13804.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
13826.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但約好大家都喜歡啊 給你更好的照顧我們都願意啊但是呢 是不是像剛 呃 前居部長這邊剛所講的 再去試算一下人家的校方署長跟警政署長他們也認為說是應該再來做一個試算啊否則大家都 大家對這個整個退幅你一下子又把它拉回到所得替代率又超過90% |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
13828.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
13855.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
任何的一個政黨在執政都會碰到這樣的一個問題在台灣沒有一個政黨在一個政黨可以執政一百年沒有這樣的一個政黨所以這個是一個非常嚴肅的問題我們這個社會我們要感謝人太多警察要不要感謝當然要感謝消防人員要不要感謝當然要感謝你說海巡人員要不要感謝都要感謝所有的在為這個國家付出的我們全部都要感謝基金就像一桶水一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
13856.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
13872.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
你要一直給他留留留你要其他的部分你怎麼放進去怎麼樣再來留進去然後對其他的人會不會有相對剝奪感如果說這一些危險工作的警察跟消防人員你那個畢竟你會覺得說我我跟基法公務人員一樣你要付錢但是我的行為比你更危險這樣就沒道理可是問題是我們把年功分又調高我們讓基層讓他在六十等的人領到八十等現在的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
13885.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
13905.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那又要從這個退休這個部分拉高所得替代率我們前面在做一個提升的我們一般都在講什麼都在講說因為退服那個所得替代率年金改革有稍微有降低他的工作是很危險的所以我們去把它做提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
13906.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
13906.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
阿 阿 阿 阿 阿 阿 阿 阿 阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
13922.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
13948.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
謝謝專委選委員那跟各位黨團幹部報告接下來還有三位委員發言之後我就要喊休息五分鐘大家協商那委員這邊現在還有傅坤祺委員、劉許廷委員、鍾嘉斌委員跟柯建民委員我們就這樣因為這樣一直發言現在我總是要做結論大家還是要如果能夠達成共識最好不能達成的話就要送院會所以等一下必須要喊一個休息時間請大家來協商接下來這幾位委員發言好不好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
13951.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
13952.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
請簡短、扼要、重複的就不用再說了。請復會及委員。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
13956.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
13983.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝主席您叫我們簡短慰藥我想特別要再強調一次不管是軍人還是我們警察還是我們消防甚至海巡因為現在執政政府也要求警察要做好第二陸軍的準備事實上我們看到萬安演習照理講是一個準戰爭狀態結果演習的全部是警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
13984.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
14011.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
包括現在我們包山包海幾乎所有的工作保家衛民是軍人但是除暴安良是警察其實他們的工作都一樣越是我們的假日反而都是警察最忙碌的時候還要指揮交通還要肅竊還要除暴還有各方面的社會治安安寧等等甚至晚上的噪音都要由警察來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
14012.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
14041.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
什麼鞭炮啊 什麼東西啊所以我想今天警察同仁我們剛剛聽到警政署跟消防署的講我覺得還有部長講 我也蠻遺憾的啦他說對現職的警察要怎麼樣改善他們的環境現在我們現今的社會跟古早的社會就已經退休了這批人那時候物質更缺乏 更艱困的年代這些警察同仁如果還心都走過來已經退休了 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
14042.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
14069.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那對一個已經為國家奉獻一生的人我們都沒有辦法好好照顧他那限職的人當然會喊心那再一次要強調如果我們所得替代率修正以後限職的警察會趕著要退休這是國家該承擔的責任欸應該是要對國家要有信心才對嘛 對不對執政者要有信心嘛能夠把整個國家照顧好嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
14070.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
14071.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 謝謝 接下來請劉許庭委員發言 鍾嘉斌委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
14092.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
14106.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
謝謝主席這幾點立場還是要做簡單扼要的說明第一個剛剛有人講年輕改革不要開倒車當然可以這樣主張但是難道當初的粗暴通過沒有含了軍公教的心嗎難道沒有應該有若干 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
14106.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
14121.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
有欠考慮之處應該重新檢討嗎我想包含年改法案當初通過的時候都有講說這應該要視財務的狀況重新來做檢討那我也要提醒就是說如果我們的退休制度不夠優厚的話它其實是會影響軍公教部分人才的增補這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
14122.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
14148.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
第二我希望政府不要帶頭當慣老闆當我們的勞動部長已經講了撥補也是改革的時候尤其軍公教的老闆就是政府本來用同樣的邏輯跟同樣的方式合理的在財政方面提出挹注也是幫基金開源的一種方式第三我要講立足點的平等才是真平等剛剛我們總長講得非常清楚剛剛我們除了第一段第一輪發言有講了之外協情警消大量協情是跟一般公務人員最大的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
14149.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
14177.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以不應該用齊頭四平等的原則跟邏輯來處理這件事情那再來我們還是要講點東西我看了全序部給的報告這其實跟當初在委員會審查這些數字基本上都是一樣的嘛其實都是一樣的可是其實當初在委員會審查的時候大家就希望說全序部針對不同的版本不同的數字提出更完善詳實的做法那我不反對這個剛剛民眾黨黨團的意見說我們多做一點射算之後再來審慎的處理我個人認為是OK的那我就希望全序部提供一些數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
14177.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
14195.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
比如說我們現在修法的版本最低替代率百分之四十五年增百分之二最高替代率百分之九十這個數字在這邊可是難道沒有其他排列組合的方式嗎我們如果最低替代率百分之五十年增一點七五呢我們如果最低替代率百分之五十五但年增一點五呢我們的最高替代率如果降到百分之八十五或八十呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
14196.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
14209.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我希望全區部針對這些排列組合做個射算45%、50%、55%三個版本的最低替代率年增率1.5%、1.75%跟2%的三個年增的版本跟最高替代率75%、80%、85%、90% |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
14212.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
14239.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
來做一下來做一下計算如果我們今天決定說不要在今天就處理這件事的話那好歹我們做設算做版本的考量的時候那我們就要更多的數字的版本來做來做設算但是我最希望全序部可以如實的提供這些的資料作為大家未來再討論的一個參考但是我還是要講即便是百分之四十五百分之二百分之九十對於財務的影響也沒有大家想像中的那麼大你講一千多億幾千多億是用五十年的基準來計算如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
14241.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
14255.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個多撥補一千億是五十年那平均一年才兩億多啊何況我們現在處理勞保的部分一年就是一千多億啊這難道沒有有失橫貧跟比例原則嗎我覺得這些數字跟這些理路大家是值得再深思沒有錯希望全區部提供足夠的資料作為後續討論的參考以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
14259.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
14286.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言請謝謝主席剛剛聽到牛委員在提到未來也不排除考慮請全市府提出更完整的設算之後我們再來處理這個嚴肅的年金議題那跟剛剛民眾黨的黃總召所提到的我想方向是一致的但是還是要回應到我們的副總召所提到的當我們談軍公教的時候當我們談軍公教退府的時候我想我們毫無例外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
14287.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
14302.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們對於穿著制服的軍人警察消防甚至海巡我們了解到他們現職在工作當中他們的可能的風險可能的付出都遠超過其他的公教人員因此呢我們必須對於警 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
14304.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
14324.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
消、海巡等這些同樣性質的公務員．給予他權益上更多的保障．我想這是毫無疑問的．但是我們如果從年金的角度來出發．我們要思考到．在退休後的警消．他跟公務人員和軍人是差異．哪一個比較接近．哪一個比較大． |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
14325.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
14341.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我舉例來講當我們講軍警票的時候我小時候有軍警票軍跟警的限職人員是享受到軍警票的優待當年是因為軍警的待遇較差所以社會上業者是同意在這樣的事業上給予軍警票的優惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
14341.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
14361.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
但是現階段已經沒有軍警票因為待遇都提高了反倒是不分是軍警消公務員65歲或者60歲退休之後65歲都可以乘坐敬老票所以說明了說軍警他們在在職期間的風險跟條件是相當所以我們要提議他 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
14361.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
14387.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
提高待遇的優待或保障．這是應該責成是內政部去做．但在退休這個撫恤．軍人跟警消不同．是用一個退撫基金．軍人的退撫基金當中．軍人所提撥的．所繳納的義務跟權利是一致的．但是警或消．他們是結合在公務人員的退撫基金當中．他們跟其他的公務員所想的權利．跟義務是一致的． |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
14388.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
14405.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那儘管在限職的年之上．他們的退休年齡比一般公教人員早個五年．那可是他們的限職的待遇．以限職的月薪來講．大概以警政事階跟建任六職人來比．大概是多了大概一萬六左右．那這意味著什麼． |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
14405.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
14432.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因為這在退休後的權益跟待遇呢他們在限職的時候警消人員是繳的因為他月薪較高他貢獻的是稍微多一點但是論其他退休的年資是相當於其他的公務人員早退休可能早個五年所以他的貢獻時間是較短那再以平均餘命來算目前退休的警消人員他們平均餘命跟國人是沒有差別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
14433.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
14449.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那以他們的退休的死亡年齡來看也是跟國人差異不大換言之他們在退休之後可以享受到這樣的退伍基金的照顧的年限甚至還因為早退休比其他公務人員多享受一些時間因此從整個年金永續經營的立場來講我們認為對於警消人員的肯定應該是在限職期間的待遇跟各種安全的保障去提升應該責成內政部跟海巡相關部會去要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
14461.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
14487.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
但是呢再提到年金的部分那麼警消部分跟其他公務人員共享同一個退伍基金應該至於對於不分各種的類型的公務人員包括警消在內應該一視同仁給予均等的退休待遇這樣才是一個比較好的所以我們還是希望說未來呢我們對警消的肯定跟尊重和強化應該以債值為優先但是對於年金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
14488.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
14507.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
可能還是呼應剛剛黃總召跟劉委員的意思,我們可以重嘗記憶,以上謝謝鍾嘉斌委員接下來我們請柯建民總召發言之後就會休息五分鐘,大家掌握最後黃總召院長、各位委員同仁我們希望這個廢棄這個最後一個案子是在一個有理性討論的問題下來完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
14510.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
14533.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我不想看到就是說大家來火車對撞再來釋憲再來互議因為這個道理很清楚嘛我們來講一個就是說剛剛洪本凱委員講的說我們在反改革要搞一國兩制事實上洪本凱你才是在反改革年輕改革已經改完了嘛你現在重新再來搞重新再搞一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
14535.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
14552.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那時候聯席改革大臣花了多少時間精力還有全國聯改會議等等對於警消、圍牢警消給他多一點圍牢的待遇那時候都已經出於了所以我們今天不要用那個口號是誰在反改革自己所謂一國兩制當然是 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
14554.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
14582.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
當然是你們現在在搞一五兩四,怎麼會變成我們在搞一五兩四呢?剛才已經講很清楚,金人是一個系統,公務員是一個系統,警消當然包括公務員員裡面。立法在公務員員系統要覆蓋兩個制度,當然是搞一五兩四嘛。那對於剛剛胡文綺委員所談的,因為剛才劉思芳部長講得很有道理嘛。現在行政要好,退休金額要好,現在再來更好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
14583.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
14599.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
大家要搶退嘛,因為我都要去追,搞不好差不多大家都要搶退了嘛那這請問結果是哪?是我們警察那些從哪裡去補充?並不是說所謂的副運氣委員說這回到信心的問題,這是現實的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
14603.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
14630.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以今天要講的就是說有一個觀念啦就是說你經驗的錢阿沒得出阿到底想不出?一定政府出了這很簡單嘛這個道理真的很簡單嘛那已經給對於對於警察人員他本來在當限制的時候我們已經給他都提好十年能夠退休提好十年能夠拿到要退休要退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
14632 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
14648.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以剛才包括情緒部部長以及內政部長大家講的很一樣我們對於限制的人我們看有什麼方法再給他多增加五百倍五百二等等這才是正辦最後回到核心事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
14650.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
14669.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這個還是違反到憲法七十條以及憲法第七條拼的原則乃至於同時違反到財政紀議法我不希望他再來做最後衝突啦應該可以好好冷靜的考慮今天黃昌委員也談到 劉慶英委員也談到我希望大家兩獎學兩獎 我想看好不好小劉我幫你支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
14674.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
14680.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那我們現在休息五分鐘請各黨團協商之後五分鐘之後就要宣布我們協商結論好不好協商結果好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
15179.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
15191.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐各位委員各位官員請坐我們現在宣讀三個黨團大家初步的一個共識也請好請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
15193.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
15217.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
三個團團大家一個共識就請全序部於一個月之內提供警察人員退休最低所得替代率年增率及最高所得替代率概算資料給各黨團以及審查會市部長您聽清楚了嗎我們來努力啦就是就這些做一個最基本的那個我們這個會期最後一個草案好請柯總召請發言當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
15223.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
15250.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
部長一定說要努力啦那我講的比較實際啦這種精算是一個非常繁雜的而且要負責的我比較建議就是說下一期開議你先送進來就可以因為我現在開始放暑假也沒有這個案子啦所以這個大家不要爭面子我們講的比較務實的嘛因為這個是一個非常算出來讓人家精算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
15252.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
15280.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
您講很粗我沒有意見你看 好 請那個洪書記長院長抱歉 如果這樣的話民進黨身為現在執政黨黨團如果要這樣講的話那我們代表國民黨黨團我們絕對沒有辦法接受第一 這一個案子其實從委員會的時候就已經討論了委員會在一樣在這一個會議是司法法治委員會那個時候我們的委員在詢問的時候就有講說概算的部分那個時候就沒有算出來幾個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
15282.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
15304.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
兩個月、三個月現在我們在要求更詳細的數據這個是很負責任的態度本來我們剛剛是希望是七月底但是因為院長的高度所以我們接受一個月的時間請程序部好好的整理上一次是六月六號已經一個多月的時間那還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
15305.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
15329.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
現在我們在做的每一個事情其實都還是一樣我們當然支持改革但更重要的是我們要求的是公平跟合理性以及對於退休人員限職人員都要一樣的照顧這合作之有所以不用任何一個黨團來扣我們國民黨團帽子我們沒有反改革更重要的是我們希望是追求公平理性的部分這一點也是講給我們柯建民總召聽謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
15330.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
15352.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
楊瓊英委員請發言我們就準備要宣讀了非常感謝三黨的委員以及行政部門從6月6號到現在已經超過一個月那現在我們也大家都以負責任態度也的確我們必須要去修改以視照顧這些退休人員因為當時他們的薪資跟現在是不能比 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
15353.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
15379.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
如果股市經做我相信這個也是一個最重要的立足點不公平所以我們願意再給一個月的時間也鼓勵行政部門、權序部你們用心去把它拿出來因為數字出來我們才能夠再三檔再詳實由院長來召集來討論這個就是一個負責任的一個法案處理以上建言謝謝 剛才我已經念過了 市部長您請補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
15381.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
15396.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
院長我只是做一個補充沒有錯在第一次委員會審查的時候有請我們先做概算大概就以90%跟95%那我們在三個禮拜裡面先做了一個概算送給那個委員會那所以在第二次7月11號協商的時候那黃總長說這個90跟95是不是還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
15401.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
15421.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
所以他希望我們再做多做一些不同的組合的一個試算所以我剛剛一開始就報告說我們已經開始找精算師再往下更走那所以我的意思說我們現在希望就是說現在開始在一個月我們再做一些估算或者是這個我們會努力來做這個事情但是精算真的是比較複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
15424.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
15433.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
既然大家話都講中明,政治人都看重不說穿,我們就尊重你們就好了好不好好謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
15437.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
15457.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我要主席現在特別跟大家報告本日的協商到此告一段落也特別跟各位黨團幹部報告今天是本次院會最後一天我們要進行所有的法案清倉目前不需協商和已經有協商結論不需表決的在院會已經處理完畢共二十四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
15458.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
15477.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
剩下的議案還有二十七案有一些如洗錢防治、通傳匯組織法已經有協商結論要進行保留條文的表決其他的議案也有一些已經超過協商期一個月但是還沒有協商結論如果這些議案都要進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
15479.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
15499.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那麼可能今天院會的時間會有所不夠所以針對討論事項所列尚未有協商結論又已經超過一個月協商期的議案哪一些法案要繼續協商哪一些今天要院會表決進行處理要建請各黨團來保持溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
15502.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
15522.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
另外我們之前協商還有提到目前院會還有一些同意權的案子包括考試院委員同意權案等尚未處理針對同意權案的行使有新舊法適用的問題法治局前次協商會議已經跟各黨團提供相關意見以及該法結文格式 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
15523.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
15545.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
供各黨團參考現在針對如果依照新法的同意權實成我們議事處會有一個草稿提供各位黨團來參考至於未來同意權包括考委NCC委員在院會如何適用新舊法行使及其實成如何均有待各黨團來持續溝通我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
15548.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
15569.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
現在時間十二點五十分我們下午的院會兩點半繼續開會我們現在協商會議散會你剛才講的那個要處理哪要處理哪要講什麼來講啊我們提出了齁我們提出了我們就撤案沒有到一個月的也沒辦法齁兩點半的院會齁這重點是客制 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
15577.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
15580.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
柯先生怎麼 柯先生應該再採一下吧對啊 因為他還有一個要討論你現在是兩點半是吧 |