| IVOD_ID |
161026 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161026 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-07T12:25:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-07T12:36:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e062fe4073b309de35f04869f6baa92091db4f448269aea9776288fdc86b9d8d4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王鴻薇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:25:03 - 12:36:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
41.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
主委好主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
42.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
68.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
93.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
100.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
119.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
139.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
146.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
171.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
173.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
192.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那中選會有沒有告發中選會也是一致的都會告發好都會告發但是這次中選會最大的不同是過去所有的告發有關聯署告發都是在聯署結束之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
193.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.834 |
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來予以告罰都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現因為最後經過查對有死人連署有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
236.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
257.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
261.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
278.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
296.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
307.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.223 |
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330.324 |
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過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
333.127 |
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342.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
352.947 |
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369.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
370.336 |
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387.303 |
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那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
388.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
399.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外來 主委另外請教一下這個領銜人 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
403.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
432.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
433.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
460.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
463.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
490.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
496.528 |
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公民選民的意願合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
497.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
522.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
523.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
531.7 |
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有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
533.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
559.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
561.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
576.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
577.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
601.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
602.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
608.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
630.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
639.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛 對不對我一樣是良善的態度 但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話 社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了 晚來剛發生的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
658.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
674.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
681.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
697.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果 |