| IVOD_ID |
161010 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161010 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-07T10:48:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-07T11:00:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06b965d278ac77f46704869f6baa92091d3464f2517af749f00726145194e09ab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:48:02 - 11:00:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 李靜永主委有請請讓主委你好 |
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主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清 |
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來 下一張 謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派啊當然互相指責有人講說死人連署 幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的 來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民 李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署 當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了 |
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但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪 |
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筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名 |
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135.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
155.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
184.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
186.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
211.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
212.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
240.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
242.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
261.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
261.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
278.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
305.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
331.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
332.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
352.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
353.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
374.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好 謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來 第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
377.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
422.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
424.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
452.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
454.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
469.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
471.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
497.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
523.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
525.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
543.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
544.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
563.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
565.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
588.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
591.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
610.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
637.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
639.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
663.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
666.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
688.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
689.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
702.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的 請中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
718.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
727.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝 |