| IVOD_ID |
16101 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16101 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024071209 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-12T15:45:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-12T23:15:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:29:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a01f7615212773971174dd8e6ff3eb65a028aaa308df9ea37306914dd8435b88405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-12T16:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商有關「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」、「洗錢防制法修正草案」、「科技偵察及保障法草案」及「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」等案（民進黨黨團提議）二、研商有關「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」等案（國民黨黨團提議）三、研商有關「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）四、研商有關「新住民基本法草案(新住民權益保障法草案)」、「四零三震災重建條例草案」、「本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議『農業部應調整公糧收購價格，由每公斤26元調整至每公斤34元，提高農民基本利潤，請公決案』」等案（國民黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:45:07 - 23:15:00 |
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黨團幹部通知一下台灣民眾黨幹部怎麼還沒有來? |
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1337.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝我們各位列席的委員也謝謝各位列席的閣員各位官員各位新聞界好朋友首先先向各位黨團幹部各位介紹今天列席的內閣閣員及官員第一位內政部劉部長歡迎陸委會梁副主委歡迎行政院人事行政總處李副人事長歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1339.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1363.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
行政院主計總處陳副主計長 歡迎您勞動部許次長 歡迎您考選部劉次長 歡迎您好 謝謝各位黨團幹部還有各位列席的委員要特別報告今天我們要繼續進行的黨團協商的主題是內政委會報告並安審查羅美玲22位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1365.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1382.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
及網美會十九位委員分別凝聚新住民權益保障法草案臺灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨團、張志倫等十八位委員、蘇巧慧等二十六位委員及邱正軍等二十七位委員分別凝聚新住民基本法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1385.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1411.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
與今院會近乎二讀與相關提案並且協商之行政院含情審議范雲等十七位委員吳佩儀等十六位委員分別凝聚新住民權益保障法草案另外今天早上我們院會吳思瑤等十七位委員又凝聚新住民權益保障法草案近乎二讀並入本次協商我們一併列入討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1413.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1431.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
有關本法案之黨團協商（ 向各位黨團幹部報告我們內政委會召集委員高金素美委員於七月二日跟九日已經先行召集兩次協商會議協商的結果除保留法案名稱第二條至第五條條文外其餘條文均已有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1432.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1459.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因為本法有新制定的法案本案的法案名稱的定性牽扯到後續保留條文的法條內容這句話非常重要我再念一遍本法的名稱性的定下來之後會牽動到後續保留條文的法案內容這點要請各位黨團幹部特別注意另外高金委員召集了兩次黨團協商為顧及到立法體系的完整性集中討論的焦點 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1460.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1466.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
均確立以行政院提案條文為本法案協商之討論基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1467.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1490.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
最後,全案採用協商條文之立法體例,並提報院會進行二、三讀程序,為節省各位黨團代表的寶貴時間。主席在這裡具體建議,我們採用上述的協商模式,討論上述保留的名稱及條文。如果大家後續對已經有的共識有意見,我們再回過頭來,再繼續討論。請問各位委員代表有無異議? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1494.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1499.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
沒有異議,好,我們就此照上述宣告通過,我們先請高津召委請說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1501.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1524.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好,非常謝謝我們辛苦了院長也非常謝謝今天的黨團三長都在還有很辛苦的在委員會裡面討論的委員們都在包括我們的部長我就大概再跟大家提案說明一下剛剛雖然院長已經做了一些的說明我再補充說明新住民基本法的立法其實有兩個一個叫做新住民基本法權益根 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1525.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1552.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
《基本法》或是《新住民的權益法》這兩個名稱的問題然後我來說明一下其實從第九屆林立產委員的時候106年10月他就已經先提出了《新住民基本法草案》然後在第十屆任期的時候羅美林委員也提出了那當時他也是內政的召委那麼對於這個法案一直沒有辦法做實質性的討論原因是行政院沒有版本出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1552.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1564.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
但是他們分別也都有開過公聽會然後本席擔任召委之後在內政委員會我們分別非常辛苦的內政委員會的委員們4月29號跟6月12號我們開始我們法案的審查在這個過程裏面民眾黨的麥一貞委員跟國民黨張志倫的委員他們也在6月11號的時候召開新住民基本法的公聽會並且來聆聽各界的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1580.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1600.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我們在六月十二號的審查過程之中 非常順利的完成了那麼完善了立法程序 特別我也等待了行政院的版本那非常謝謝我們的部長 也提出了內政部的版本 然後讓行政院通過所以我在七月二號跟七月九號 再一次的召開協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1602.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1620.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那麼把新住民基本法的協商完略那剛剛陳儒院長所講的我們總共有十九條那麼十九條裡面最重要的就是名稱的法案到底要做新住民基本法或者是新住民權益保障法就待會大家再討論第二個就是新住民的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1621.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1643.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第三個就是新住民的主管機關．第四個是新住民的專責機關．第五個是行政院有關新住民的協調匯報的設置我想待會大家可以就這個部分來討論那麼我先講一下基本法其實它最重要的是原則性、精神性、政策性方向的規範同時呢基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1643.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1672.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
如果它確定了之後 它的施政方向然後再依據所謂的基本法的精神繼續訂定各種執法然後是具有統合各機關目標跟手段的用法我在這邊提供給大家做一個參考比如說環境基本法 比如說道路交通安全基本法比如說通訊傳播基本法 教育基本法 海洋基本法科學技術基本法 社會福利基本法 文化基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1672.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1692.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以及原住民族基本法還有客家基本法其實以上我談的這個部分都是在我們的政府機關有立的基本法然後其中呢92年制定公佈的通訊傳播基本法裡面也說了要設置通訊傳播委員會其實呢跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1693.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1697.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
目前不管是民眾黨團、國民黨團或者是民進黨有些委員的提案都相同所以在裡面其實也有規範設置專責機關那第二個我要講的是新住民的範圍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1708.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1734.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
新住民的範圍當然也是大家待會要討論的部分那麼要處理社會我們新住民其實就是要落實憲法保障多元文化的精神要保障新住民的基本權益然後更要協助他們融入我國的社會建立共存共榮的族群關係所以特別要訂立基本法因此立法的目的很明顯就是要保障新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1735.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1756.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
了解、熟悉我國的社會﹐然後要處理社會事宜的問題﹐我們既然要處理社會事宜的問題﹐所以我們就難以用所謂取得我國身份證作為判斷的基準﹐因此限制取得我國身份證﹐拿到三年之內才是新住民﹐顯然是非常不合理的﹐再來我們以外配來說﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1757.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1772.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
最快四年取得我國國籍再加上他取得身份證三年等於他七年的時間是親族名然而如果不拿我國身份證他只拿永久居留證 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1773.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1799.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
永遠就是新住民所以以這樣的邏輯來看是顯然非常不合理的再來我要講的是專責機關除了行政院版本之外不管是民進黨、國民黨或民眾黨委員的版本其實都有談到要成立二級的新住民專責機關那麼再來按照目前移民署的編制我們看一下現在新住民的人口大概是一百二十萬含二代了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1800.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1825.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那在我們的移民署的編制裡面只有一個移民輔導科只有六個人在處理新住民的業務也就是說平均一個人他們要服務二十萬個人人力真的是非常的不足我相信也是各黨團委員版本要求成立新住民專者機關的主要原因那麼如果我們按照目前的編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1826.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1842.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
原本就捉襟見肘的人力我相信未來更難以符合未來工作我覺得這個部分行政院應該要來說明清楚以上是昭緯做的補充說明 謝謝謝謝高津素美委員昭緯做的說明接下來我們請內政部劉部長請說一個說明好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝院長柯總召請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1847.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1850.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝院長、謝謝各位黨團的幹部、謝謝各位委員謝謝高金、昭偉在過去好幾次的協商當中把我們不管是各個委員的版本或者是各個黨團的版本還有包括行政院通過的版本說明得非常清楚那我就幾條有法案保留的部分先跟大家做一個基本的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1870.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1894.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
行政院所提的部分是新住民權益保障法那跟原來很多委員或是很多黨團所提的新住民的基本法確實有在法律適用上的一個不同那剛剛高金委員已經跟大家報告等一下我們在討論的時候我們會再提出我們的看法那在行政院所提的這個權益保障法裡面如果是按照新住民的這個權益保障法這樣子的法案的提摘規格的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1895.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1922.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那在我們原來的這個設置裡面就是未來的這個新住民權益保障法的主管機關就是內政部那內政部會把這個原來在移民署下面的一個只有幾個人的移民輔導或是相關的業務提高變成是私的或者是一個中心這樣的規格那如果是放在原來的所謂的新住民基本法的時候按照它原來的設置規範恐怕就是變成另外一個叫做新住民委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1923.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1948.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那它必須有執法才能夠定定出來是哪一些部會來主導有關新住民的相關事項第一個很簡單跟大家回覆那再來有關第二條也就是說我們在所有的委員的版本裡面大家討論會比較多的我也跟大家做一個很簡單的報告第一個剛剛我們高金昭偉所提的完全正確就是說用現在的新住民一般來看待的話新住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1949.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1967.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
人數在臺灣大約是一百二十八萬人左右其中大約有九成是女性子女不算的話大概是八十萬到九十萬左右其中大約九成是女性九成當中大約是六成是中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1969.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1990.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
到臺灣來的婚姻移民在第二條的第一項第一款裡面我們有規範要服務的對象的範圍婚姻移民大約是六十萬那第二款裡面的外國專業人士包括中階技術人力的話大約是十六萬那有關港澳或者是大陸地區的部分的話大約是四點三萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1991.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2014.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個並不包括我所說的在第一項第一款裡面的婚姻移民還有規劃取得國籍者我們在新住民的權益保障法裡面也特別把子女也包含在內目前在臺灣的子女大約是48萬左右再來就是剛剛跟各位提到的部分就是說如果我們用新住民基本法的時候有一些體力在試用上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2016.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2034.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
會有一些困擾的部分就是說第一個我們不知道未來的新住民基本法那在這個行政機關裡面的主要的主責單位是哪一個目的事業主管機關還沒有定定的很清楚只有定定說是一個委員會或者是一個專責機關那這個呢在定義事項不明的話未來在處理有關新住民的相關權益事項或是其他的這個任務編組的時候會出現一些漢格的情形以上簡單報告謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2045.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2048.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
謝謝劉部長的說明接下來請柯建民總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2050.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2074.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席各位委員同仁,剛才高英市委所談的行政的版本,事實上在六月十號我來過去還有跟你還有黃國昌委員大家一直在協商因為你在五月底的時候,在審這個法案,五月初要審這個法案的時候等行政院整個院長換人以後,新的聯合團隊要審法案以後我們再來審 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2078.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2098.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你本來就有這個決議,結果六月十號高清社會委員當召委,因為你是應要審查我還過去還有副本席總召委來,黃國昌也來了那講了半天,就是黃國昌不答應嘛,應要審,那你就配合所以你把委員會,你當委員會召委,對委員做所有決議,你應該以遵行 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2099.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2126.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那你不遵行,你們委員才做決議說等新的部長來、新的法案送進來才審那6月10號你要印審嘛所以整個就推出委會所以你剛才,等一下我講完再講我剛才仔細聽你的話,我講話不會拗人的這都是公開記錄的所以這個是在做真正操作嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2127.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2134.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
根本你要把行政版本丟包嘛那你知道行政版本根本對法案名稱大家有不同意見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2136.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2163.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那你也知道行政院要用潛意保障法吧所以你硬搶著要把他押出去嘛那天還持續問題我講了半天 黃國昌還上來發言結果你召委竟然是如此的做法所以包括你上次選辦法也是這樣的搞法我是覺得召委你那個召委不是以你的意志為意志那選法法那天也是把人都關起來所以我今天要講的就是說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2164.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2190.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
當然我們面對這種窘境的時候,人家說行政版本沒有版本,行政版本後來才附會進來的好,那現在我們要談的一個事情就是說,這裡面也有很尊重的問題院長我覺得這裡面也有修正案也要並然來討論,因為民進黨這種修正案一看就知道,這有鬼嘛所以一定要,這修正案第一條而已,所以面對我們既然保了哪一條,哪一條全部拿出來看,我們在當會時間再講第二輪,讓我們當會時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2194.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2216.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我今天才看到民進黨提一個新聞基本法的第一條修正案和第二條修正案很清楚 這個馬上我們會碰到還有第九條吧所以要並在一起來討論 這個我覺得要堅持那今天我們要談的就是第一個問題到底法案名稱要用什麼法案名稱是用基本法還是權益保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2218.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2222.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這是總統關鍵還有主管機關你要二級獨立機關這有可能嗎這不是關鍵事情我們要談的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2232.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2248.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
坦白講新住民我們剛才講有一百二十萬那新住民有很多種國家在裡面很大宗的是陸配很大宗陸配所以今天我們要講一個很重要的問題就是說像美國這樣一個種族 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2251.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2269.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
有大農的國家,他只有對他們自己,像我們有原住民原住民是我們本來的,所以在憲法上有原住民文化及語言的保障、發展是這樣的態度,我們憲法保障是本國國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2270.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2297.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那美國這樣大一個世界各種種族都大同的國家但是全世界都只有一種就是對於自己的native的像印第安他有印 美國有印第安的事務局話屬於尼仁布他沒有成立在一個委員會我們要知道你這樣的話我們再去成立有新住民的成立一個委員會這是代表分裂的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2298.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2327.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那這個委員會主委是不是降到陸培最多數是陸培所以我們要在此也先弄清楚這個基本法的基本法架構你如果基本法架構不是這樣寫你這裡面有作案法所以我們主張是新住民權益保障法這主要是保障新住民權益嘛還有什麼但是我看他們法案的提法因為你用憲法憲法是保障本國國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2328.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2354.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
《憲法真正條例》第十一條也是兩岸人民關係條例 它有差別待遇的兩岸人民關係條例也寫成香港隊的兩岸 雖然有兩岸那兩岸是不是屬於常常常常講 大家都知道不同國家所以要特別用法律的定義有差別待遇你把現在 我們將來把新住民都搞到基本法然後要成立一個二級獨立機關這代表什麼 要一個分裂國家 更加嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2356.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2375.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以我主張對於對於民眾黨 等一下不要謝謝好不好 我把這次講完啦等下什麼時候 高雄市長講很久了 朝野鄉可以限制時間了等下我很希望聽到你好好講好不好 我想聽到你的觀點 因為我尊重你的意見民眾黨第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2379.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2386.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
和今天第一條的寫法完全不一樣為了落實憲法保障多元、文化、精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2388.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2397.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
保障新住民各項基本人權,因不受歧視、排擠、剝奪及限制,並協助其融合社會。第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2412.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2442.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
政府對於不同國籍或第七之新住民行政措施應一律平等這是什麼意思政府對於不同國籍這個就是我們海外哪中央有沒有深圳的海外僑胞有哪深圳有沒有深圳的這些人數超過我們現在兩千三百萬那超過我們現在國內只能三百萬你要然後呢或第七或第這個人也第七就是大陸吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2443.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2468.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
之新住民行政措施應一平等這是什麼意思就是長安民間條例入配六年要改四年在這裡偷渡因為國民黨的秋年金版本寫得很清楚第三條寫得很清楚就是用這個條文可以把入配改六年變四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2469.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2491.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以他這樣用行政措施一律平等就是要偷渡假新住民假新住民實在是要偷渡六倍事件這很清楚嘛這一個是大問題這個地方我覺得我是沒有辦法妥協的我覺得沒有辦法妥協好不好所以第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2493.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2516.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
民生八月第一條文,這是民眾黨的嘛那天黃國昌出於棍牌,就問我鴨子要出委員會、要審查我這個意思很對,那高中生女的委員你不尊重委員會的決議,應該配合吧這個有高度的政治意涵的東西,這個是有高度意涵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2518.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2544.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我不是故意來講這個誰跟兩岸的關係比較好大家都很清楚黃國昌既然會搞這個也搞出來了好 謝謝柯建民總長我會 不要讓我決定好不好接下來我們請高金委員發言 請黃珊文準備好 謝謝一個我要講的是我不接受柯總召用情緒式的語言來指控召委我再特別來說明一下也跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2545.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2568.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所有的內政委員會都在好不好大家我來把時間續談一下在四月二十九號六月十二號召開法案的審查當時各委員的版本都在然後呢大家為了討論也實質的討論沒有任何結論所以因此我在當下也沒有新政院版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2569.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2585.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以當下我決議我們等待行政院版本我們再開始召開討論因此我們也等待了內政部送到行政院的版本出來了之後我特別在 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2586.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2612.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
七月二號跟七月九號所以柯總召您誤會了你剛剛的指控我不接受我們是在尊重大家的狀況也特別等待行政院版本進入到內政委員會又再開了兩次的協商所以不是您剛剛說的我沒有尊重大家希望柯總召知道我知道你很忙我也原諒你 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2615.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2629.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
接著下來我要談的是今天有被保留的部分我就不要再花時間了被保留的部分是大家可以討論的有十九條大家認為不需要討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2630.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2655.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
協商版本也都在大家的桌上因此只有幾條那麼當時我們在說如果名稱沒有辦法大家一樣的話在委員會縱使再多的討論都沒有辦法通過這個需要我們這個政府政策性的宣示跟決定所以才會最後到院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2657.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2682.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
三長來討論保留的法條所以並不是如剛剛柯總長所講的朝委沒有按照行政程序或者是沒有尊重行政院版本我要特別的說明希望我們等一下討論法案的時候不要再用情緒性的語言我們同樣的希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2683.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2686.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
立法院能夠保持高度的文明以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2716.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2719.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
請問一下今天協商有沒有行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2726.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2750.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
請問一下你胡說八道7月2號、4號我們的協商就是用行政院的版本在討論7月2號、7月9號按照行政院的版本在討論因此才會今天有協商柯總召您年紀大了是不是還是您忙多了很抱歉喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2752.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2769.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們下面還有其他內政委員會的會發言,自然會澄清很多有一些不清楚的地方我應該從華人名稱才開始談,先講清楚好不好我們先討論名稱問題那個建議你講好好聲明一下,我們聽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2771.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2796.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們現在剛才請內政部部長報告也是關於第一條條文看內政部的立場再來請召集委員說明完現在要內政委員會像現在是麥玉珍委員發言完張宏祿委員要準備你先聽完好不好請他說明他們現在提出來修正案的版本是什麼你不是讓他嗎黃珊瑋你不是說讓麥玉珍委員嗎麥玉珍委員請你抓緊時間好嗎請直接講重點謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2801.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2826.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好 院長 三位總召我們今天要跟第一個條款要說明的是剛才我們的初小會委員也有說我們是第一條是照你的通過但是呢 因為我們很多的民團的反應說我們整個條款裡面都沒有放反歧視的條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2827.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2847.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以我們才提出修正但是我們沒有堅持但是這個部分也要跟你說明說因為民團說我們沒有把這一條放進來所以我們要放進來是說希望說大家同意討論看有沒有這樣子的需要但是第一條的就是那個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2849.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2856.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
對,所以就是這一塊跟你說明所以也要跟大家說明說我為什麼我們的黨團還有我進來立法院第一個是優先法案因為從92年我們移民署就成立了成立到現在大家算一下移民署已經做了多久所以說我們外國人入境 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2876.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2876.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
三、研 三、研 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2900.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2919.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
為政．缺雜就是發展的機會．因此我們希望說整合政府資源．廣納各界的人才．讓各個部會依據這樣子的基本法的方向．目標來去分工合作．所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2920.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2938.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
實現就是合法、合理還有平等、平權、消除歧視、辨明等的目標來設立這個基本法的精神所以我們有認同就是我們的蘇曉慧她提的第一個精神但是因為我們等一下再一起討論第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2941.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2960.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為外國人來自各界各地﹐所以寄駐臺灣﹐所以我們希望他們在臺灣安定樂業﹐永久駐臺灣﹐所以我們希望說要定居臺灣﹐融入臺灣﹐所以我們要定這樣子的一個定義﹐希望說我們從認識到 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2963.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2981.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
二、研二、研三、研四、研五、研六、研七、研八、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五、研十五 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2983.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2989.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
以結婚為最大的目標其他說他要即將成為我們台灣人了我們才要納入成為新住民所以我們希望不要去定說三年還有說他兼具我國國籍也不要再納入再這樣子的條文所以第三我們希望說有一個專門的窗口因為栽培人才給予機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3013.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3027.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
才有學要習嘛所以我們要希望有一個單位讓新住民在這邊去發揮所以我們希望的我們現在就是要跟你說明我要立法的目的要讓你了解所以我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3033.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3053.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
尊重啊 你講話說 你要好好聽我講完講完 這樣立法的精神 有頭有尾我們希望你要去認同 不是說你來這邊你就打破大家的討論因為我們要去審查法案的時候 我們是因為要等 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3054.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3077.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
行政院版我們也願意等不能說上車了要來翻車吧不是這樣的意思我們希望大家好好去討論不是你來了就直接攻擊我們的召委又說我們怎麼樣怎麼樣你要尊重所有的委員花了多少時間從竹條就省兩次協商又兩次今天第三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3078.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3101.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們很願意大家共同來去討論我們想要求有再求好大家來討論希望給新住民一個機會不要只把新住民當選舉工具還有預算的工具希望大家好好來去為台灣服務我們來台灣已經很久了希望大家有機會要來台灣貢獻來設一個專門你栽培人才就要給大家去 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3107.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3132.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
服務是這樣子的目標所以我覺得為什麼我生氣覺得說你進來你就這樣子噼噼啪啪的就是沒有頭沒尾去罵我們我覺得對我們很不尊重我邏輯很清楚沒有我現在問你第一條你第一條第二項你說明一下你怎麼不說明呢第一條第二項第二項啊你第二條提案了那黃山說明好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3136.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3161.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席再出言一下好不好我這個主席好像張宏祿委是本來下面要發言的那我們讓黃三威先發言請張宏祿委再等一下好不好我補充麥玉珍好了因為各位委員因為我這個在委員會其實通過了蘇巧惠委員的版本那當然就是剛剛麥玉珍委員已經說了就是其實很多民團過來澄清說他們希望能夠納入剛剛也講了這是我們提出來這邊討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3163.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3183.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我剛剛麥玉珍也說了他們沒有堅持但是提出來討論不是不能討論所以希望這是第一個民團要求納入這個反歧視我們希望我們入法這是我們代表民意的反應第二個這個規定第二個部分叫做政府對不同國及地區的新住民行政措施一律平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3184.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3205.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這是一個基本法的精神而已精神基本法在目前為止相關的不管是法院的判例或者對於基本法的認知跟定位它其實是宣示性跟正式性的作用具體執行還要透過各種立法跟施政計畫跟施政方針來落實它是彰顯一個我們國家的精神並不是要現在就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3206.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3223.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
一、因為這一條所以其他的法條全部都會變成一樣所以我覺得不要故意誤解這件事情我們的立場是說就像憲法人民一律平等但是我們還是會有不同平等的法律去規範不同的東西所以這是一個宣示性的意義所以並沒有要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3224.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3241.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
建越其他法律的規定所以也不用在這邊做誤解我還強調這是基本法它是一個原則性跟政策性的宣示而已那民團的要求我們把它帶到協商現場但是並不堅持已經講了不需要再幫我們扣帽子謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3247.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3271.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
下面我們張宏祿委員發言,然後請舒巧會委員準備拜託各位呼籲一下,我們聚焦在名稱方面,謝謝主席,我想要先說,在內政委員會我們對這個法案討論很久了其實連名稱都還沒有辦法確定,就是我們要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3272.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3287.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
新住民的定義大家的看法都不一樣然後新住民的範圍有多廣大家也不同不過我必須還是要再強調新住民不是一個種族不是一個特定的一個民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3288.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3288.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
國民黨黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3309.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3318.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
問題來了所以我們大家對新住民基本法或是新住民權益保障法大家有不同的看法但我個人是認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3321.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3349.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們整部的法令你從頭到尾幾乎都是作用法的作用而且我們的新住民他有很多的太陽難道非我們海外的國人也算新住民嗎然後如果新住民他在這個過程當中他不規劃變成中華民國國民或者是他離婚了或者只要生了小孩這種種的太多的樣貌都會出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3350.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3373.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以我們那時候才會說我個人是真的很堅持就是用新住民族權益保障法有兩個目的第一個身份清楚的界定第二個我們可以馬上有一個主管機關你如果是基本法你的主管機關不知道在哪裡這是一個很嚴肅的問題而且在全世界各國 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3374.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3393.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
沒有像這樣子說對一個新住民去特別立那個法令我覺得台灣是一個進步的象徵但是在一個進步的象徵裡面新住民我還要再特別強調這個院長他不是一個種族他是一個短暫的身份而已我們也不可以讓他被標籤化這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3396.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3414.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
謝謝張宏祿委員的發言接下來蘇巧慧委員發言然後請吳思瑤委員準備好 謝謝院長也謝謝各位同仁我想是這樣子啦我覺得最近大家 全國的人民都透過了立法院以及電視的轉播媒體網路的轉播都開始認真學習了憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3418.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3421.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那麼我也希望透過今天的這場協商大家可以認真來瞭解一下在法律的架構裡面到底什麼是基本法什麼是作用法基本法它所定義出來到底會有什麼樣的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3434.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3446.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
會約制什麼樣的法律其他的競合作用我覺得這是作為一個立法委員當我們在立法的時候真的需要要徹底了解並且確認的狀況恕我沒有辦法同意剛剛有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3452.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3479.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
如果我們基本法定出來就跟憲法一樣是在宣示一個方向和精神其實不見得會馬上處理到其他的法律那不好意思 那如果是這樣的話那我們乾脆寫一個新住民保障宣言就好了啊我們何必要訂一部法律呢其實基本法定義出來它就是最高的一個位階幾乎就等同於是憲法一樣所以憲法它規定的這麼寬這麼廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3481.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3509.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
但是就確立了國家的方向所以任何下面未接的法律不能夠違背憲法這是大家應該有的常識 這沒有問題所以我們今天如果我們一旦訂立的是基本法各位 那即便它是新住民基本法但它處理的不是只有新住民的部分而已它是在中華民國的法律體系裡面它就是一個基本法其他的法律碰到它未接都在它之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3509.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3531.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這才是今天最大的問題呀所以為什麼我們在內政委員會從委員會時期就一直在主張說各位我們到底定的是權益保障法是一個作用法還是是基本法這是有絕對根本性的差異我也想請主席也就是我們院長在這裡能夠了解並且您也很忙您可能今天第一次聽到這樣的狀況但這確實是有重大的差異這是第一個好 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3535.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3562.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那第二個以個案來講的話我個人本身提出的法律案我的版本本來就是基本法而我在經過了委員會的討論之後我接受了部會的意見以及委員們大家的討論也就是我剛剛的這一番論述正是因為在委員會討論之後我同意了所以我已經把我自己的版本我正是明白的表示我放棄基本法的這個版本我接受權益保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3562.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3578.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為不但是法律未接的問題而且是權益保障法是職業作用法現在馬上訂了就可以執行不用再像基本法去訂子法對新住民的保障不是更好嗎好 那如果再往下面走的話其實在下面專責機關也都是一樣的狀況啊所以既然院長說現在只討論名稱我就跟你只討論名稱 我說到這裡第一個 我討論基本法的效用 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3587.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3607.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
第二、我用我個人的版本我放棄了我的基本法版本採用院版權益保障法的版本跟大家做舉例第三、我在這裡要求請求內政部以及現在今天在場的立委會是不是能夠就如果我們今天訂的是基本法之後會和現在的兩岸人民關係條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3609.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3618.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
產生什麼樣的競合作用．會發生什麼樣的效果．請在這裡留下紀錄的做說明．讓我們知道今天如果是訂了基本法．會有多嚴重的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3619.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3646.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好 我們第一輪委員發言完畢之後再請內政部跟陸委會提出說明好嗎因為還有好幾個委員不同意見接下來請吳思瑤委員發言張志倫委員請準備好 謝謝主席吳思瑤的第一輪發言我想名稱是重要的名稱會為這個法律來定調來定性那民進黨的立場我們多數委員我們都有一致的看法也包括行政部門我們總整的意見是 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3648.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3663.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
用新住民權益保障法．會優於在業黨委員所期待的用新住民基本法．的這樣一個法律名稱．我們要對新住民族的權益照顧．各方面生活的支持．應當是很務實的能夠發生實際的幫助． |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3667.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3689.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
而不是列一個很好聽的基本法但它恐怕是一個空中樓格所以我們非常務實用什麼樣的方式能夠實質具體有效快速的來幫助新住民呢如果適用權益保障法很清楚的能夠針對新住民族的權益及福利法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3690.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3704.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
為未來新住民的政策提供一個清楚的法律授權如果你是定基本法的話它就是一個落實憲法平等多元精神的那樣子的基本原則它並沒有辦法直接產生效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3705.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3723.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那剛剛大家都講到權益保障法很清楚就是作用法它具有實質的法律效力如果是基本法它只有政策宣示的效力大不同而在相關的政策支持的作為快或慢能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3725.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3743.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
獲益於新住民的朋友們．如果用權益保障法．它可以通過後直接規範行政單位．快速執行．但是如果是基本法．你還需要去制定其他的法規．來引以作用．所以這對於新住民族的權益照顧．反而是慢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3744.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3764.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
最後一個就條文的內容因為權益保障法它是一個作用法我們可以很明確的就依據委員會討論的過程所定出來的它規範實際執行的方式條文的內容非常的具體可行如果是採取基本法的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3764.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3783.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
它是定定精神方向原則而已的空泛的條文（沒有辦法實質（對於新住民族的權益照顧（發生直接快速的效用剛剛高進蘇美委員說（我們現在有很多部基本法（無私也要參與非常多部（就包括文化基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3784.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3813.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
然後我們道路交通安全基本法我們有參與過基本法立法的委員都非常清楚它是一個空泛的基本原則的訂定所以如何、什麼樣子的立法方式、體力選擇下是對於新住民族快、有效、實質的幫助那絕對是新住民的權益保障法而不是一個比較中看而不馬上重用的基本法這是第一個名稱的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3813.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3842.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
第二個我也要說今天看到這個民眾黨團的第一條我們為什麼如果要在委員會通過之後再用修正動議不是不行但是需要有清楚的提案說明所以剛剛不管是麥玉珍委員或黃珊珊委員都只說明了第一項第一項就是你們說希望能夠把反歧視的部分放進去文字可以商著那我也跟您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3843.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3858.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
行政院也在研議一個全方位的叫做《反歧視法》未來那一套專法裡頭對於不管新住民、原住民不管所有的在台灣的各類性別、身障各方面的會有一道專法來保障所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3859.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3884.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
人在臺灣所以是不是因需要特別在因為反歧視而去改變的委員會已經審查的第一條第一項我認為是可以相著那也很感謝你們剛說你們不堅持但第二項你們堅不堅持這就很重要了第二項我一直希望能夠從麥玉珍委員您是提案委員的口中來說服我們很清楚的揭示給大眾為什麼民眾黨要列這個文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3885.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3913.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
政府對於不同國籍或地區之新住民行政措施應一律平等我必須說在台灣的新住民三種一般的外配他適用的是國籍法跟入出國移民法港澳的朋友駕到台灣來他適用的是港澳條例百分之六十的陸配他適用的是兩岸人民關係條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3914.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3941.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
他都有不同的法律在規範提供他們必要的權利義務有不同的規範但如果麥玉珍委員您把第二項放進來意思是而且你們是用基本法的高位階換言之未來定在這裡第一條的第二項就會優於所有你會在法律的適用上發生很大的漢格也就是未來的你所定義的新住民完全都取代了《兩岸人民關係條例》對於陸培的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3942.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3958.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
取代了港澳條例對於港澳人士的這個配偶在台灣他享有的或是他應盡的義務所以這樣子是完全凌駕了其他已經有的台灣的法規而當中非常敏感的有陸配他是用兩岸人民關係條例的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3960.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3986.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以這個請麥玉珍委員您要具體的說明清楚為什麼民進黨團在委員會通過了第一條之後你們要再提修正動議而這個第二項讓我覺得非常需要探究你們的立法理由是什麼等一下請您務必要清楚的說明因為它會跟其他適用的法律身份上的適用產生非常嚴重的罕格第三點我很快做個ending剛剛你們也說因為有民團的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3988.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4003.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我這邊也接獲了很多民團對於新住民族權益保障法的關心我想新聞大家也看到了民團在這個法案在委員會初審過後甚至要進入朝野協商的階段民團都站出來他們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4005.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4026.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
朝野不要像趕鴨子一樣（通過一部拼裝車的法案（讓新住民的權益（有如泄氣的小鴨（有跟沒有變成是一樣的這個是數個新住民族的團體們他們希望要更周延不要倉促的立法因為事實上這個法案沒有經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4028.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4036.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
非常嚴謹或是多元的公聽會的很多的程序所以因為剛剛你們有提到民團的意見那我也必須把我這邊接觸的很多的民團他們對於快速倉促的來通過一個有跟沒有一樣的基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4043.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4062.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
對他們來說．就像泄氣的鴨子一樣．我也必須表達人民的聲音．所以希望主席．等一下可以請提案委員．針對第一條的第二項．因為剛剛沒有具體說明．那我覺得這是這個條文．如果要增列的話．是非常重要的核心．我們必須清楚地來交換意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4064 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4085.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
謝謝吳世耀委員發言 接下來請牛徐廷委員發言 請沈博洋委員準備好 謝謝主席 首先我要先釐清一下這整個法案的一個審議過程我認為柯總召剛剛對於高進召委的說法是有點不公平的 那個狀況是這樣新住民基本法對國民黨跟民眾黨來講都是重要的優先法案 我們當然希望這個法案的推動可以有進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4086.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4107.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那當然嘛 在內政委員會討論的過程中 我們也希望說 院板競速的來提出所以在六月的那一場委員會的審查之後 大家是最後經過協商之後 達成了一定的共識換言之 我們會等待院板進來之後 由高清召委主動召集協商在協商的過程中 就像委員會開會一樣 會主動邀請所有內政委員會再次的來參與 並且仔細的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4110.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4123.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們在這兩次的協商也確實有說到做到我們盡量的來收縮法條的數量盡量的達成共識也充分的進行討論所以我想雖然說院版進來的速度慢了一點但沒有丟包的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4125.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4152.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那丟包的話今天怎麼會有院版的版本在裡面做討論呢?所以我覺得這件事情就到此為止啦我們針對法條好好來說明就好了那有關於法案的名稱為什麼我們主張是新住民基本法這裡也要做一個說明其實跟剛剛吳世耀委員表達民團的關切也是有關係的因為事實上這個法案在內政委員會審議的過程中我們走的是先易後難也就是說先把法案的一些細節的部分做了完整的溝通那到底上都快速的取得了共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4154.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4179.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
關鍵就是我們取得共識的基本上討論的模板基本上都是以基本法的概念下去立法的換言之我們現在在委員會通過的各項內容的條文裡面其實就是原則性的規範那民團後來為什麼提出了一些批評跟指教你聽我說嘛民團提為什麼叫《泄氣的小鴨》因為按照委員會通過的版本他們是不是覺得強度不夠高他們是不是覺得具體來說可以有更詳細的內容更清楚的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4180.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4209.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
可是為什麼我們推過的版本比較接近原則版本而不是有足夠的強度就是因為當初整部法條的設計是用基本法的法條下去過的也就是說我們希望這基本法過後之後有專責的機關有相關配套的執法能夠再強化它實際上執行的一個內容它應該是用這樣子的步驟來完成這樣子的一個立法程序那現在行政院跑進來推了叫做權益保障法但內容上寫的強度跟基本法是差不多的時候難道我們今天如果以 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4210.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4238.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
權益保障法的名稱過關 難道不會變成強度不夠嗎你如果講的是一個作用法 你的內容就要更完善、更明顯、更具體民團才會滿意嘛 才不會是所謂的拼裝車嘛今天不希望是拼裝車的話 大家應該是基本法先規範大的方向跟內容 透過執法、透過政策的配套去完善詳盡的這個細節 我想才是比較正確的一個方式喔所以我覺得這個基本法還是在這一次的修法 我們要考量已經通過了這些法條 會是一個比較適合的一個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4239.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4256.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那麼有關於第一條的部分當然如果民眾黨沒有做堅持大家在各個機關在做說明做意義上的釐清之後如果沒有特別堅持我是覺得也就不用花太多時間討論今天難就難在法案名稱、主管機關跟適用對象這三大爭議要怎麼樣透過協商的機制來解決我想還是比較重要的期待大家理性討論以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4258.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4274.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
謝謝牛許廷委員發言 接下來請沈伯陽委員發言 張志龍委員請準備好 我簡短發言 因為剛剛這個洪路委員已經講過了他是一個屬於過渡型的一個身份 所以過渡型的身份本來就按照我們現在所有的基本法 他就不應該適用基本法的名稱 這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4275.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4293.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
第二點就像剛剛司藥委員講的他是有一個很強烈的一個宣示意義的作用他不能夠直接作用但剛剛牛委員也有提到說按照這個裡面的各一個規定好像很多宣示性的規定第一個其實有作用的規定第二個我覺得最重要的就是因為現在新住民我們對待的方式他本來就已經在作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4294.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4309.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以這就是為什麼其實用作用法其實還是比較合適的一個原因所以第一個它的身份本來就不適合用基本法第二個是它已經有實際的作用正在進行當中所以用作用法其實還是比較合適這就是為什麼還是要用權益保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4309.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4328.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那這個當然也會連結到剛剛高金委員提到的就是到底要不要委員會就是他如果用基本法的概念才會連結到委員會那一個不然的話其實應該依照現行的作用直接讓各機關依照現在這個權益保障法的原理原則直接去適用做他們現在的政策 這才是比較合適的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4329.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4344.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那最後一個關於那個第一條剛剛那個第二項的部分我覺得還是要非常的小心是因為即使按照憲法因為新住民的身份他是比較模糊的他是一個過渡的階段而且很多人是不喜歡新住民這個名稱我的阿嬤就是新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4344.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4367.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
在這個所謂的新著名的這個定義上他自己都很不喜歡所以呢在這個第二項的狀況之下他一定會跟兩岸條例有衝突如果今天我們使用了基本法的規定兩岸條例馬上就要問說那我們現在跟這一個基本法的衝突該怎麼辦這是馬上就必須要解決的事情而這個會非常難解決因為不管是兩岸條例還是港岸條例關於中配其實有非常細緻的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4369.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4396.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
謝謝沈博洋委員的發言接下來請張志倫委員發言請張美惠委員準備好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家午安大家都辛苦了我相信不分黨派大家都是為了新住民的權益在努力可是這邊我首先要先幫我們高金昭偉來聲援這個新住民基本法是從第九屆第十屆來到第十一屆大家的不分黨派的努力之下現在才有在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4398.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4424.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個內政部移民署的努力之下才有行政院版那當然就是因為過去長期以來這個移民署因為他是三級機關很多的跨部會他沒有辦法去協調所以現在新住民已經超過一百萬人可是在保障他的很多權益跟他的一些很多的部分是缺乏的那行政院現在目前其實每年有辦兩次的行政院的這個事務匯報一年兩次其實數量也是很少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4425.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4443.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那就我了解今年上半年因為也是因為要修法的關係偷偷沒有開事務委員會所以我剛剛沈博洋委員講的我也是認同就是我哥可是我有地方要稍微補充一下就是應該要做新住民基本法才有相關的全責機關不然的話現在移民署他其實講來的人那麼少 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4444.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4472.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
它根本沒有辦法去做一個跨部會的溝通跟協調所以這還是我們第一個覺得說最需要做的所以基本法它是會連動到過去的這個未來的權責機關那我這邊還是要相對應要補充的就是新住民的定義那因為這個行政院內政部之前給出的版本是說新住民拿到身份證三年以後就不是新住民這點我覺得非常不能接受因為其實很多新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4474.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4488.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
對還沒講完對不起就是新住民他基本上有分新住民而且還有分新住民的下一代其實現在很多的時候都是在享有一些獎學金或等等的一些優惠那之前我們在委員會特別討論其實新住民是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4489.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4516.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
滿十年滿十年以上才能參選公職那如果他三年以後他就不是新住民的話那他這臺灣人為什麼還要限制他十年以後才能參選公職而且我們現在有這麼多的新住民的委員對他們來講要如何適從所以這都是很嚴重的一個問題那最後我還是要等一下因為我不知道會不會討論到最後一條那最後一條這個我特別緊張的是我們希望最後還可以討論等一下討論的最後一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4518.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4545.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
結果現在這個內政部的這個版本最後一條我希望大家可以做個條解釋他居然在法條裡面列說那未來只要新住民定居了以後要優先適用本國人的法條那條第一我請問一下什麼叫做定居那第二個如果他先適用這個台灣人的法條的話本國人的法條的話那根本就完全就沒有保障了比過去那個三年拿到身份證三年的還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4547.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4562.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
沒有沒有沒有新住民他有一些是要用新住民的方式去保障所以我覺得這一條更是我們現在的就是要用一個基本法就是特別法結果在特別法裡面又說特別法要適用普通法這個是非常奇怪的啦因為新住民他就是要一些保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4563.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4591.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我不要這樣講我相信各黨派我們大家都可以做討論那最後我要講的一個點就是說在去年的時候我們的賴清德總統他有PO了一個臉書他說我們大家要為新住民的權益大家一起來不分黨派共同來努力那請問賴清德總統當時提到新住民到底是什麼新住民是我們現在大家討論的兩岸關係條例的新住民嗎還是我們要把這個新住民的範圍來擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4592.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4616.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
因為我們現在要修這個新住民基本法的原因我覺得很單純的一個點就是我們台灣要對抗老年化跟少子化我們需要說只要大家各國的人都歡迎來到台灣讓台灣變成亞洲最歡迎新住民的一個國家我相信大家都一直在努力以上謝謝謝謝張志倫委員發言接下來請羅美玲委員發言請王美惠委員準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4617.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4642.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好 謝謝主席我可能要跟張助理委員說一下定居其實是取得身分證的意思啦定居 對定居是取得身分證的意思跟居留是不太一樣OK 好那首先我還是要謝謝我們朝野的同仁在不管是在委員會的審查或者是在這個協商的時候呢對我的版本很多條次的這個支持而且也都通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4643.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4666.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我當然也很謝謝行政院在擬定這個法案的時候其實也參照了很多我的版本我的版本用的名稱是叫做新住民權益保障法現在我們在討論這個名稱現在還在爭論說到底是要用租用法的新住民權益保障法還是要用新住民基本法我也覺得很納悶因為我們在討論的過程當中其實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4670.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4692.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
因為大家都幾乎很多都用我的條次版本那我的版本其實就是作用法的架構我們現在通過了作用法的架構的這些條次現在倒過來要說我現在要用基本法我覺得我對這個是很困惑的那剛剛大家很多委員都提到了基本法跟這個作用法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4692.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4693.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
《原住民基本法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4707.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4721.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
現在還在訂立法令我一直想請問就是說那如果我們用基本法的話以後我們要訂定一個新住民身份法嗎那如果我們要設置一個專責機構我們要設置一個新住民專責單位的組織法嗎就一條一條這樣子來嗎本來你就可以捨盡我覺得這是一個捨盡求遠的一個做法啦你明明就是可以用作用法馬上就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4735.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4754.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
讓這個法律產生效用 直接去做執行我不知道為什麼我們要回到這個這個非常遙遠、非常空洞的一個基本法那當然我也參考過原住民基本法我也參考過客家基本法覺得新住民其實我們最重視的還是在權益的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4757.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4779.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
像客家的話它有文化語言的保存你不可能去保存來自於一百也許來自一百多個國家的新著名的語言文化嘛對不對跟客家基本法基本上是不一樣的那原著名它是原生原種那我們也許它的語言文化瀕臨也許是要絕滅我們要保存它我們怎麼可能去保存其他國家的語言文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4779.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4791.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以我們去到這些東西之後其實我們剩下就是權益的部分現在院長應該理解以上 OK 謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員發言接下來我們請王美惠委員發言請柯建銘總召準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4793.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4795.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
謝謝 感謝主席在這裡我本身也提到新住民權益保障法我現在是說我們新住民代保安來到我們台灣是不是你們都認爲照顧不夠所以我們今天跟大家在這裡討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4816.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4820.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
因為整宗以後 它就站在台灣的新聞局就視同跟台灣人一樣的管理跟照顧現在我們就是要照顧它們所以在幾個月內 我們在內政會會說它們不肯 它們回來不肯 要怎麼負責 怎麼照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4842.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4842.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
國民黨黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4858.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4872.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個基本法 基本法說原住民 原住民是住古早他就在台灣啊 咱新住民是因為他來台灣 今天沒辦法適應所以咱政府 也跟咱所有 咱這裡的委員也想說 咱有牽掛的敵對 要怎麼讓他們逃三天 怎麼讓他們走 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4885.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4887.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這不是英文的這未來它站在我們中華民國的新聞局是跟我們的管理都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4896.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4905.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所以在這要讓我們的好董事跟主席說我會提出的是新住民權益保障法我覺得這是非常可以照顧所有大家最歡樂的事情以上謝謝王美惠委員發言聽你發言我精神都來了謝謝我們接下來請柯建民總召發言黃珊珊委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4926.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4951.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 仔細各位同仁 剛才劉委員 還有張家倫 不知道誰這樣劉啟庭 還是張家倫我們看得出來 國民黨民進黨首提的全部是基本法這個先請大家注意一下 這是基本法那過去基本法為什麼這麼急切 包括馬英雄執政大選 乃至於 都沒有過一 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4957.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4957.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
沒有沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4960.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4989.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
他們所提的名稱都是基本法 內容在另論 內容也有問題因為以法案的最上位的東西基本法的話 那個案例是不一樣的東西潛意義保障法是潛意義保障法 那個位階是不一樣的東西那為什麼南白所提的都是基本法 這有高度的政治意涵人講的沒有錯 規矩界有的人提出來 但都不會過 沒有人敢審那這個牽涉太敏感的神經嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4990.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5005.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
因為金字幕裡面包括什麼?包括木屁所以剛才我一直問黃昌昌委員包括問麥委員麥委員齁你的第一條裡面的六項是什麼都沒有回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5007.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5027.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這有對於不同國籍或地區之新住民行政措施應一定平等這概念置換嘛這個讓黃山聖只能勉強打出一句話就是要照照基本法的精神不是這一個精神這裡面隱含了多少高度政治的這是一個分裂國家的寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5030.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5033.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
請看大法官四字、六一八四字,他怎麼解釋? |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5054.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5074.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
因為我們憲法這個條裡面 第十一條 第十一條寫得很清楚兩岸 我們憲法常常都是 我們國內都是大家平等的憲法是關於我們國人的 但是我們又有兩岸的問題所以這條 第十一條寫得很清楚兩岸要以特殊法律來定制 就是要讓他們有差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5075.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5101.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以你現在講得很清楚嘛所以大法院事實上講得很清楚六一八四日他對二十一條服務公職的當然有差別待遇啊要你十年以後才可以來因為你的忠誠義務必須要徹底考驗你的忠誠義務所以這大家講清楚因為它是敵對國家嘛所以當然我們生活上也解釋很清楚啊所以這一點我要講清楚就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5103.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5124.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們不可能接受所謂的基本法這問題太大了而且基本法你要設 你要設一個獨立委員會那獨立委員會 那有科家委員會 因為他是我們本國的 原住民他們本國的那新之民報案項 那裡面最 最 最靈感的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5125.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5144.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
大陸地區人那再設一個就是代表分裂國家這很嚴重連美國全世界沒有一個國家敢這樣搞的把印第安都處於他們裡面的局域這是國內的事情所以我今天要講很清楚就是說這一點要先談清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5146.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5174.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
就是說第一個我要問清楚到底你沒有所提的案子第一條第一項你沒有堅持好第二項的問題你要講清楚然後呢再來就是基本法我們反對用基本法啦這一點大家要談清楚這是一個非常高度政治敏感的問題所以我們看得出來高層市民為什麼一直把我們丟包嘛怎麼沒有丟包呢你有時候要選 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5175.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5202.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那再趕快把行政版本還沒進來的時候你趕快審他們在這個概率正在算七月十六號可以表決嘛所以這個問題我當初就一直很清楚這一個嘛這反在行政版本還沒進來的話他們這個會議其實不能表決這個是大概那個對面那個副總召的心理也有這個概念嘛他們很多一定要搞的你看這次最後我們往上面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5204.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5230.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
實際上要表決案子 都是高度敏感的案子 都要碰到了接下來黃珊珊委員發言 李柏毅委員請準備好 謝謝主席 我想時間也很久 大家都講完了我們剛剛講了第一條是把民團的意見提出來 請大家討論第二個 為什麼會寫第二條民團給我們剛剛我的同仁在把民團的意見講清楚因為在台灣有非常多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5231.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5250.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
行政措施上面．對於歐美人士．還有東南亞人士．有明顯的差別待遇．比如說警察會常常去新住民開的小吃店．常常去臨檢找．抓逃逸外勞．但是可能比較少會去．歐美人士所開的店．或者是去對他做一些調查． |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5250.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5266.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、八百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、八百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四十五條之一、九百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5277.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5304.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
挪上來說﹐請內政部在行政措施上面﹐也希望對待所謂的﹐一般的新住民﹐不管是歐美﹐或者東南亞﹐或者是陸配﹐他都有一個統一的措施﹐而不是單純說﹐他們會感覺他們被歧視﹐或被特別對待﹐所以這個是我們第二項﹐我們願意幫他們提案的原因﹐但是再強調一次﹐這一次這個內容﹐我們並不堅持﹐但是總是要把他的話帶到﹐也希望內政部可以﹐針對民團﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5306.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5328.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
有這樣不同待遇的狀況．能夠在．不管是尤其內政部、警政署．對於警察．跟他們的建議說．在他們在操作上面．不要特別針對東南亞人士．以上我對不起．我這很關鍵．我一直沒有講清楚．你說是民團的．民團待遇的．民團是第一項還是第二項． |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5330.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5358.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
第二項是哪一個民團第二項是這個是高度我們現在在講說民團提出來我們提出來修正柯總召你請求發言哪一個民團柯總召我們今天不是來針對哪一個民團而是我們有意見提出來這不是一個討論的地方嗎我也可以講話我們民黨不同意見啊所以我得說你不用針對這件事情這是能不能對自己講的話負責不要說民黨不能講我剛剛講完了啊民團為什麼希望一致的措施就是因為他們常常被臨檢嘛那個是一回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5359.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5369.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查有什麼關係?第二項安庭檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5389.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5410.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
謝謝主席我想在澄清這些權益保障法或基本法之前先跟各位委員再補充報告一下剛剛很多委員對於就是內政部現在在處理有關於新住民權益的部分可能有一些資訊上的落差第一個我們在很早以前我們處理新住民的權益並不是從零開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5411.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5427.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
其實已經有很多的努力 包括是92年的時候就已經提供了所謂的八大照顧服務措施當然這裡面有包括勞動部、衛福部、教育部、文化部這些機關都有推動而且94年到現在每一年依註的基金大概是3億元左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5428.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5454.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那並不是說完全是領而且每半年都需要管考跟大家報告一下然後再來就是有關於因為大家的討論裡面在集中在第一個就是名稱的問題還有因為民眾黨有提出第一條要修正的問題還有第二條新住民的所謂的他的定義也好或是下列情形的問題我想就綜合跟大家來做一下說明剛剛那個張志文委員特別提到有所謂的三年條款事實上在我們上一次內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5456.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5481.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
在討論的時候竟把三年拿掉因為包括麥委員也好或是羅委員他們覺得說新住民是他們的榮譽所以他們終生都要當新住民所以我們尊重身份認同這三年已經拿掉了這跟大家報告那只不過因為今天按照我們的立法規範審查會通過的版本是要留著給大家做參考那再來還是一樣第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5481.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5508.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我們不認為說這個新住民用基本法的另外一個理由就是客家基本法或者是原住民族基本法客家人也好或是原住民也好生來就是取得中華民國國籍本來就是有中華民國國籍但是很多新住民在因為婚姻或是工作或是其他關係來台灣之前還沒有取得台灣的中華民國的身份證或者是戶籍之前他是不是可以受到中華民國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5510.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5530.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
政府裡面的權益的保障的這一段話其實我們就是要把它納進去所以我們認為用權益保障法不會說從零開始因為基本法還要再訂定這個作用法的話變成是從零開始再來就是我們認為權益保障法的話就是可以馬上有成立專責機構或專責單位像剛剛跟各位報告的如果有通過新住民權益保障法的話在中央的主管機關就是內政部它的定義剛剛在第二條裡面講得非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5540.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5568.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那如果是基本法的話呢 第一個必須要再訂定作用法 像剛剛所說的你可能有這個新住民教育法、新住民福利法、新住民的什麼勞動基準法等等這些還有它會曠日廢時 那如果按照這個新住民基本法這樣子的規範下去的話 要成立中央的這個專責機關目前是我們查到的是違反中央行政機關組織基本法以外 我們還要再修改現在的行政院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5569.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5570.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
民進黨黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5586.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5601.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
中華民國政府全部的資源去依註到所有的權益保障上面﹐我們以平等原則來看待之下﹐會強烈地稀釋掉所有現在的新住民的權益保障﹐所以我們不認為現在的這個階段﹐可以適用基本法﹐以上簡單報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5602.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5602.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5622.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5633.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
在所謂新住民當中有百分之六十五是所謂的陸配原陸籍的配偶所以當大家在討論新住民的時候其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5635.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5653.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
有最大多數的人其實是陸配那陸配的或是大陸人士他在台灣我們的在陸委會的理解或是說從1992年兩岸關係條例制定以來其實兩岸關係條例就是這一塊的基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5654.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5675.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我們同樣還有另外一個基本法叫做港澳條例是特別針對港澳人士的所以今天如果說我們把原大陸籍人士跟原港澳籍人士全部把他們通通稱為新住民然後用一個新住民基本法來概括他 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5676.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5695.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那就變成說我們的原來的兩岸條例或是港澳條例 變成這個基本法的執法或者是作用法那第一個 這個未來會不會有什麼漢格這個未來會不會有漢格 譬如說我們兩岸條例 有一些很特別的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5696.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5718.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
在婚姻、居留、定居、繼承、行事、民事、稅收、任工職等等我們對於原大陸籍人士都會有一些不同於一般的規定我們對於港澳人士也是這樣所以它是特殊規定如果說我們把它全部稱為新住民然後說要一律、要平等的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5718.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5741.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那未來我們的港澳條例跟兩岸人民關係條例 有很多可能要配合修法 或者是說無法執行或者說被人家質疑說這個是違反基本法的精神 這是第一點第二點 我們這麼多年來 陸委會跟移民署都有在負責陸配的照顧工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5744.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5773.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們所理解的是其實原入籍的大陸配偶他們並不希望被稱為新住民他們希望成為台灣人所以今天如果把這個百分之六十五的這麼多的人全部把他們和其他國家的配偶一起弄作新住民似乎也有點奇怪這是第二點第三點如果說這個叫做基本法那未來可能還要成立一個行政院的新住民委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5775.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5797.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個新住民委員會他所執掌或執行的很多工作其實和我們陸委會會重疊這個委員會他可能對於新住民的事務有他自己的見解譬如說他可能覺得說港澳人士為什麼來台一年就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5798.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5822.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
申請定居他可能覺得有意見那這個東西就會和我們陸委會所執掌的港澳條例有所衝突那這個時候到底是這個新住民委員會比較大還是我們陸委會比較大這個問題又出來了所以我們在這個法律的行政院的討論過程之中我們是希望說我們還是保留原來讓兩岸條例來 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5825.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5826.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5843.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5865.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這樣就好了 因為它的基本法這個概念實在太高了它會把我們的港澳條例跟這個兩岸條例全部變成它的執法是 謝謝謝謝陸委會的說明那請問其他相關的勞動部、考選部、人事行政總處、主席總處有沒有類似相關重要的意見要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5867.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5882.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
沒有 我們請蘇巧慧委員發言發言完畢後 我們要休息來協商一下名稱張宏路委員請準備好 謝謝院長 也謝謝辛苦努力的大家尤其今天我們很高興民眾黨有黃委員可以加入討論我是這樣覺得其實我們今天大家都不分黨派很誠意的在這裡要為新住民的權益做保護這部法案我們也真的討論了很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5896.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5918.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那個有沒有機會是讓我可以跟黃委員對話一下不好意思喔可不可以讓我跟黃委員對話一下嘿對我是覺得大家真的不分黨派都在為新住民權益而努力那修法的過程其實就是大家把不同的意見帶到這個議場上面來那如果大家第一不同意見可以整合當然是最好那第二如果有自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5919.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5934.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
的版本當中有設想不足之處﹐經過聽到別人的版本意見以後﹐願意修正﹐我覺得這也不是什麼壞事﹐不要說別的﹐我自己的版本就是﹐我就提基本法﹐然後我現在已經接受成為權益保障法了啊﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5934.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5944.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以改變並不是壞事而是我出於對新住民權益保障的初衷但整盤的法律看過以後我發現繼續堅持基本法會有這樣的狀況所以我願意調整往這個方向前進這才叫做協商 這才叫做討論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5953.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5976.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
所以我用我自己更改做例子那再一次跟大家做參考剛剛牛許廷、牛委員有說我們在討論的過程中是用基本法的架構去做討論恕我不能同意這一點大家如果看一下手上這個黃色紙的這一張的話其實在第五頁的地方大家可以看到有我的版本是蘇巧慧等26人的第十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5977.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5986.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我當時竟然是叫做基本法 所以我的第十條寫的是政府應尊重新著名之語言、民俗節慶、文化藝術及價值觀這種就是標準基本法的寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5993.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6015.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
可是我們現在委員會通過的已經是什麼了是大家各黨派都通過已經委員會通過的條文大家可以看一下在我們通過的條文這樣子第七條甚至是我們這個第八條這樣子我們通過的版本是包括了第十一條之一、第十二條然後行政院的這個版本當中我們提出來的是第八條還有後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6018.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6022.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
第十條 對不起 我說錯了第六頁裡面的第十條、第十一條、第十二條這三條就用這三條來看好了這個都已經在審查會修正通過了我們上面寫的是什麼我們上面寫的是已經到政府應辦理生活適應服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6036.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6055.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
輔導、醫療、生育、保健等等的這些措施甚至到第十一條是已經到了說在台的新住民家庭政府應提供家庭婚姻及育兒等諮詢服務並於直轄市縣市政府設新住民家庭服務中心都寫得這麼具體的狀況了這怎麼不會是作用法呢我們的討論是朝作用法在討論的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6061.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6082.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以也已經委員會都通過往這個方向在前進了今天怎麼會變成是說欸我們當初是《草基本法》不是啊我的版本當時都被大家說欸不是不是不要應該這樣我們要具體一點那所以今天中整整個中華民國法律體系我們的國情與中國之間的關係之後以及委員會通過的數個條文其實我們有必要要糾結在 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6086.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6109.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
真的就是他一句個人說的有必要糾結在條文的名稱這麼重要嗎對我們認為重要我們也提出了這樣可是我始終聽不出來堅持基本法最後的原因是什麼就只說我們覺得基本法因為新住民很重要所以我們要叫基本法我覺得這樣不是一個很理想的狀況啦所以在最後再做一次補充請大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6110.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6134.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
謝謝蘇貼雅委員接下來請張宏路委員發言 發言完我們就必須要休息來協商一下了好請那個院長我知道現在等一下要休息要處理名稱可是大家都講這麼久了那剛剛我們今天也有很多保留的條文什麼那剛剛如果第一條親民黨也不堅持那就是我們先處理嘛我們先尊重我們內政委員會大家已經那麼久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6136.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6139.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
就把它處理了 不然永遠都沒有進度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8223.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8224.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位官員 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8249.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8265.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
各位黨團幹部剛才我們私下各黨團主要負責溝通完畢以後要請各位黨團幹部還有行政部門的官員、閣員一起來聽一下就是這個名稱的問題大家現在只濃縮在名稱的問題那我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8272.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8300.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
柯總召請說 簡短二要好 名稱我看大家過了一輪新住民權益保障法當然都有談過了 副總召沒問題國民黨團總召剛才關切新住民權益的問題副總召要不要請發言我剛剛也跟提案人麥委員也有多方面的商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8302.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8327.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我是覺得這個案子能夠在立法院通過不管是民眾黨、民進黨大家攜手過即使名稱在我認為大家協商好就好那重點是要實質照顧這些新住民所以我可能比較重視的是第二塊、第三塊第二塊就是他要成立什麼樣的機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8328.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8357.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
要成立什麼樣的機構到底是二級機關還是三級機關那像二級機關的話整個行政院整個組織改造可能全部要做調整那是不是就是說過去在移民署下面移民署下面對新住民不管是有幫忙也好還是相對單位也好我們現在是不是成立我是建議成立新住民署在內政部下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8359.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8385.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那當然柯總裁是希望是私啦但是我們是覺得署的話是比較適合至少跟移民署是平行的當然私也是跟移民署是平行的都是平行單位都是三級單位那我覺得在這個部分實施對新住民的照顧的部分這是一個招牌在那裡大家看得到的這個東西可能很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8386.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8400.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那 剛剛 劉思芳 劉部長有提到說 如果施的話 他現成就可以處理如果是署的話 還要整個送到 這個組織法還要送到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8402.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8411.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那我們這邊當然那個民眾黨我想那個那個珊珊這個書記長還是這個麥委員對這個區塊我希望待會也表達一下意見那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8420.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8447.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們現在暫時授權暫時授權這個內政部看怎麼樣先讓他在一個地方然後我們建議的部分我們做成一個附帶決議希望成立署還是怎麼樣我們給你多少時間去慢慢調整把它調整出來因為還是要經過立法院那第三個部分就是實質的照顧實質的照顧因為你有一個明確的內政部下面的一級機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8449.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8474.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我相信他的預算的編列 立法院都很關心他有實質的預算可以照顧這些新住民因為畢竟一百多萬人 這是一個新的族群要有足夠的預算來照顧我們原住民委員會 科委會大概都有一個試樣在那裡大家可以看到有多少預算我是覺得實質照顧的部分也請內政部能夠盡量給他放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8479.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8489.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這是帶來我們現在一個初步的因為因為院長是希望說大家都一起來照顧原住民我們能夠盡快達成共識好不好謝謝福昆吉總統接下來請臺灣民眾黨的黃珊珊幹事長請表達意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8497.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8517.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
主席我現在想說後面有兩條要怎麼改所以這個時間有點可能要花點時間然後名稱的部分當然我們還是希望基本法是一種精神還是強調的是精神我們希望有這樣的精神在但是如果說在法律上面已經到作用的程度我們又不排除修正成 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8518.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8547.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
《權益保障法》但是 裡面還有幾個條文我們是不是名稱的部分可以暫緩一下我們先把裡面的東西都搞定否則我們可能也要黨團要再討論一次關基本法的內容或者是基本法的名稱所以我先把內容先做一些完整的討論以後再跟內政部協商讓大家都清楚這些原來的在委員會裡面的誤會現在的狀況是怎麼樣我把它搞清楚一點然後我們再來把這個名稱處理比較好要求名稱保留就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8548.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8552.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我現在黨團幹部先發言等一下各位委員如果有意見再補充發言我們先請黨團幹部表達政黨的立場我們再請柯總召請剛才副分局總召的意見很清楚第一個他名稱是《監獄保障法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8572.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8598.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
第二個要成立一個 它知道成立二級的是不可能成立三級的是署 它比較prefer是署那我講說施和署都是三級機關所以剛才劉世東部長有談到成立一個專責機關 要去研究一下那成立署要多久 要不要修法等等 我們再來談我想這個保持彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8599.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8626.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
今天我們要談的就是說,那是要照顧新住民,那要照顧他,那這很重要。所以至於黃總,黃中央委員所談的,他說先把幾項先談一談,再接近基本法或是這個嫌疑保障法。這底下都是嫌疑保障法,怎麼可能再回到基本法去了,那照顧是不一樣,我們這個還是這個要先談清楚啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8627.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8636.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
就是就是潛意保障法這樣才往下走嘛謝謝柯總召接下來牛許廷委員舉手發言還沒其他委員要發言喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8637.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8665.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
沒有好 請林委員謝謝好 謝謝主席剛剛經過各黨在協商時間大概互相溝通之後大概已經有一點點開始有往有共識的方向走那當然是一件好事那我始終顧慮的是因為當初我們修正法條的時候我還是認為是偏原則性的規範那麼這件事情如果真的在名稱上面大家最後要先求有再求好往這個方向對較的話我們會提一個附帶決議要求主管機關至少在這個法順利修正通過之後上路的一年要非常完善的執行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8666.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8683.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
如果說這個確實是因為只有原則性的規範而有若干不足的地方至少我們修法都非常有正當性也有足夠的參考的依據用這樣的方式來做一個處理以上這個意見的表達希望大家可以支持 謝謝我現在根據草泥各個黨團的意見我嘗試性的來唸一下這個結論好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8686.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8706.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
大家認同就認同不認同大家可以再發言特別請民進黨黨團特別要注意仔細聆聽一下約大致這樣我們法案名稱照行政院提案通過這是第一點大家有意見可以表明沒問題第二點我們請內政部著手研擬相關附帶決議我們等保留條文處理完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8706.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8726.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
再來討論內政部現在索尼的附帶決議那這樣方式剛剛劉委員正式提出是一年的時間也許內政部很厲害神通廣大說明三個月就寧寧完畢也有可能所以我們尊重內政部的索尼那現在如果確定法案名稱照行政院版本通過的話我們就可以往下面這幾個條件開始審議了那這一點這索尼 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8730.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8736.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
各黨團大家大致上的意思我把它濃縮成這樣子特別請問一下台灣民眾黨黨團表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8767.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8790.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我跟副總長還有各位委員建議我們現在尊重內政部長他去炒你另外一個附帶決議之後我們再來討論因為後面還有好幾個附帶決議我們可以一起討論好不好那跟班委員講我們就是都是要照顧新住民這絕對沒有問題只是方法、速度、幅度、預算等等還有名稱好不好這一點我想我們想法都是一樣那如果沒有問題我們就進入下面一個條文討論好 謝謝我們進入第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8792.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8799.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
現在的名稱就是通過,因為我們黃珊珊委員也並沒有堅持好,麥義忠委員也點頭,我們現在請內政部您一個附帶決議,謝謝第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8813.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8829.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
各位委員同仁,現在我們第二條有台灣民眾黨黨團及國民黨團提案的第二條,也有羅美玲委員、張志倫委員、蘇巧慧委員、王美惠委員還有邱振軍等提案行政院也有第二條的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8842.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8848.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
有關第二條的部分我們建議是不是可以按照原來我們行政院的提案包括一二三四五 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8849.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8876.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
還有下面的本法保障對象及於新住民子女那這樣的完整性會比較充實就是我原來有跟大家報告的話不管他是居留永久居留長期居留按照現在的方式不管是從移民法兩岸人民關係條例或者是外國人攬查或是流財久用等等這些甚至包括有一些橋外生或者是有一些移工在某一定的一個程序上轉換之後也可能變為是新住民可以保障的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8877.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8888.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以基本上是還蠻大的那而且是擴充的這個保障所以希望各位黨團的幹部能夠支持謝謝謝謝內政部劉部長的報告跟說明接下來請我們請臺灣民眾黨黃幹事長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8896.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8909.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為麥義正委員在委員會的時候他有堅持在第二項的部分就是前項第一款及第二款經許可居留的外國人以為兼具我國國籍者為限他擔心影響到我們的新住民的子女 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8910.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8932.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
二、這個條款剛剛我跟內政部去溝通的時候他們是說這個是因為有很多是外國人是我們台灣人跟台灣人在國外生的孩子那他們會可能取得了國外的國籍但他也因為屬人關係所以他也取得台灣的國籍只是他沒有在台灣設戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8934.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8948.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以他其實嚴格來說是屬於臺灣人所以他要排除在臺灣人新住民之外那麥玉珍委員擔心的是這個會不會牽涉到像麥玉珍這樣子他的他嫁來臺灣他先生是臺灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8949.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8975.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
他生了兩個小孩也是拿台灣的身份當然可能也有可能會有其他國家的身份這樣的新住民子女會不會受排除這個是我們所concern的所以是不是請內政部再清楚的在協商的過程再說明一次你們這一項排除的對象會不會影響到現有的新住民身份的相關的子女他可能會具有外國國籍的這些新住民子女請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8977.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
9004.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
請我們的領域組長來講一下,好嗎?稍微等一下,還有其他委員要發言嗎?內政部說要等一下,現在麥正希委員現在坐下來了剛剛講的,你可不可以跟我說明說這個是排除兩個父母都是台灣人在國外生的台灣的孩子因為他可能取得了外國籍在台灣他是認定他是台灣人他具有台灣國籍的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
9004.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9033.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
但他可能沒有戶籍﹑或者有戶籍﹑但他都屬於臺灣人﹑所以你們這一條排除的是這個那麥玉貞委員擔心的是﹑像他的小孩﹑他的小孩可能也會取得另外一個國家的國籍﹑但他先生是臺灣人﹑他是新住民﹑他的小孩是不是也會被這個排除﹑那是不是會有一些人﹑在臺灣生了孩子﹑可是在臺灣沒有人帶﹑所以送回去國家﹑他的國家以後﹑他就變成不是我們認定的新住民﹑請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9034.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9058.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我等一下,院長,這裡面這個第二條條文他們有修正,麥正文有所誤解,他把第五款全部拿掉大部分,他自己認真有誤解,反正是在台灣生的都是台灣人你知道嗎?不是啦,第二項你把,第二項是三項,我知道,等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9059.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9060.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
請內政部說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9085.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9099.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
各位委員跟大家報告有關剛剛所提委員擔心的第二項前項第一款及第二款經許可拘留之外國人以未兼具我國國籍者為限 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9099.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9121.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
本項的意義主要是提到一位外國人如果兼具我國國籍者包括外國人兼具居住臺灣地區設有戶籍國民或者是他兼具臺灣地區無戶籍國民不論是哪一種身份這兩者在我的國籍法都是屬於我國國民他享有國民待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9122.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9147.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以我們認為他不應該是屬於這個本法要特別保護的新住民那就用白話一點講我國國民所生的子女依照國籍法均具有我國國籍所以這些海外國民他的世世代代他都具有我國國籍他本來就可以依照移民法以無戶籍國民的身份在臺灣居留所以他們的基於權利義務的橫平我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9150.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9153.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
本法是保護特別的對象．所以他們不宜納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9155.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9179.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但是我再問的問題就是像麥玉珍委員她的孩子她可能回到越南去生活那她會不會同樣的被排除掉我們的新住民很多有這樣的狀況請說明有關委員所垂詢的有關新住民跟國人所生的子女及取得國人身份他們就是臺灣人即便他回到了越南他還是臺灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9181.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9206.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以在本法裡面所定義的新住民指的是配偶本身我們的新住民沒有包含子女但是為了要保障新住民的子女所以我們在第三項寫說本法保障對象即於新住民子女所以委員的孩子指的是新住民子女這個身份他的定義不會在新住民的定義裡面以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9207.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9231.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以我們今天希望這個把它寫成會議紀錄就是新住民只有一個人叫佩偶然後佩偶的子女當然受本法保障所以不會因為他有戶籍又國籍的新住民子女跟國籍無關 可以這樣說嗎基本上是新住民子女跟他有沒有具雙重國籍無關 可以這樣說嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9232.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9261.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
大聲說可以可以這一點就是要讓所有的新住民團體跟委員都清楚因為他們的身份是新住民子女對跟新住民定義無關就新住民只有一種人叫做配偶結束不是不是這次我們定義擴及白領好沒有關係至少配偶是叫做新住民對對對子女叫做新住民子女對再強調一次配偶是屬於新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9262.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9262.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
就是國民了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9279.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9306.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們在白話文再講一次就是剛剛講的排除的這個外國人兼具我國國籍者只有外國人居住臺灣設有戶籍的國民以及外國人兼具臺灣地區無戶籍國民的身份只有這兩種人不會是新住民在海外生的子女是所以新住民子女本身就受保障新住民子女不因他的國籍而受到排除是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9308.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9336.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
兩句話內政部就把立法說明裏面把它補進去立法說明加進去 因為居正有沒有什麼問題那各位黨團幹部那如果第二條我們就照行政院所提內政部的我們來通過好不好但是第五款未滿三年這四個字要把它劃掉取消掉刪掉了我們到最新的內政部所送的版本好不好第二條條我們照內政部版本通過好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9339.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9363.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
報告主席我們有增訂十九條增訂十九條好報告各位黨團幹部各位委員團現在我們接下來處理第三條保留條文的第三條OK欸院長剛剛第二條齁會搭配增訂第十九條要不要先處理增訂第 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9379.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9383.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
各位委員手上我們剛剛發了一個增訂第十九條條文這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9385.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9399.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我念一遍給各位聽一下第十九條金旭格在台灣地區定居之新住民其權利義務應優先適用有戶籍國民之規定這個在各位的手上各位如果沒有意見我們就照內政部請張志文委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9402.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9418.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 感謝主席剛剛第一次發言的時候我就對這第十九條希望說不管我們就是不分黨派都很支持新住民可是第十九條的部分一定要明確定義因為它是當時在刪除第二條第四款就是說滿身份證 拿到身份證 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9420.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9440.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
三年以後就不算新住民所以他把這個刪掉那現在徵第十九條他的內容是已在臺灣定居之新住民定居剛有大家有討論到定居就是拿到身份證以後其權利義務應優先適用有戶籍國民之規定所以這樣子我單純看這個法條的解釋好像是 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9441.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9458.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個新住民這個拿到身份證以後他就不是適用新住民的一些一些優惠的一些規定而是要先適用我國國民的規定那這樣子是不是會有沒有辦法保障他們的問題變成拿到身份證之後優先適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9459.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9477.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
有戶籍就是本國之規定所以這邊我一定要拜託因為我現在解讀法條是這個內容是這樣的感覺沒問題 我請內政部說明謝謝好 謝謝張政委員發言請內政部再補謝謝張委員其實剛剛我們有跟很多我們的幹部有提到其實是不會的那相關的細節我是不是再請我們這樣講一下拜託 拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9479.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9507.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
是 跟各位委員報告有關本條之所以要在這裡明確是因為基本上法律上的權利義務應該要明確化那我們今天透過這部專法創設了一個新住民的身份所以我們也希望在法律上他們的權利義務要明確那因為他們已經取得國人身份所以這裡指的定居是指取得身份證的意思也就是說取得身份證的這些新住民他的權利義務應優先適用有戶籍國性我想這個應該不會有人反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9508.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9536.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們在立法理由 我想委員擔心的應該是說新住民他在成為新住民之前他可能享有許多的社會福利還有一些輔助措施那他擔心的是說 如果寫了這一條是不是那些都沒有了那我在這邊說明因為剛剛委員有這樣的擔心事務上在我們在第一現場上我們對於已經取得身份跟未取得身份的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9536.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9559.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
只要是新住民有需要﹐我們都會提供相關的福利措施﹐包括所有的生活適應課程﹐多元文化活動﹐或者所有的﹐他們需要的一些執訊等等﹐都有在做提供﹐所以為了要讓委員放心﹐所以我想剛剛黃珊珊委員建議我們這邊﹐有關立法理由應該要明確化﹐那我這邊就宣讀一下﹐我們對於立法理由怎麼樣去把它做修正﹐以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9561.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9573.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
新住民成為國人後除應適用我國既有法律享有相同之權利與負擔義務外政府仍應對其新住民提供所需之生活輔助與服務措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9576.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9601.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我再講一下 你可能再具體一點因為剛剛擔心的是 這個叫做權利義務適用有國籍的國民我覺得可以刮鬍舉例 比如說應當兵 或者是國民義務教育 權利跟義務那另外你剛剛講的生活保障 那叫做權益措施就受新住民的生活保障的這些措施 並不受這個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9603.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9621.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
他還是可以得到這些你剛剛講的這些措施的福利我想這個把它再理清楚一點比較好因為權力義務聽起來就好像你就只是一般國民了那他們在乎的是說我一些生活上的適應可能還是需要照顧的話是不是在立法理由再具體化一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9622.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9630.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
可以 剛剛那個黃珊珊委員講的齁 我們會在最後的兩句話 會再把你講的部分再把它放進去裡頭 講得更清楚 更清晰這樣子齁 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9640.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9669.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
謝謝主席這我還是要表達一下我的顧慮因為當然我們以現行大家這些法條來講因為大家就方向性的多一點有涉及權益保障但並沒有提到具體的一些數額比如說這個這個隨便舉幾個例子好了比如說剛剛有什麼就業輔導措施好了或者是一些生活輔助萬一到最後就是詳細的政策出來他的就業輔助措施或者是生活輔助他其實是優於我們的國民待遇那會不會到這樣子變得反而他拿到身份證之後他的權益反而是下降的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9669.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9684.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以我是覺得這件事情雖然目前目前在實務上我當然願意從良善的角度去相信說內政部執行的時候都會說我想辦法去從優處理可是這件事情一旦入了法之後會不會反而讓大家會覺得說既然你已經是拿身分證我就乾脆 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9685.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9685.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
謝謝牛委員的發言脈衷委員請補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9710.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9716.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我是覺得是不必要鎮定這一條本來就是我們要去定義新住民是有需要的人他才會去運用因為之前要定的時候為了要把那個三年拿去或者定這個新住民我們內政部又說我們新住民定在這裡一輩子都是變成新住民希望我們不要把自己當新住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9737.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9743.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
現在又說又怕別人台灣人來當新住民現在又在這裡限制說我有台灣國民了我是有身份證了我可以選擇我要用新住民這邊的保障還是我去用台灣的保障這個部分就可以去選擇了因為我拿到身份證第一天我就是中華民國了對啊你幹嘛還要去限定這個你是中華民國你就要守中華民國的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9765.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9768.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
但是你有需要這邊的照顧﹐語言﹐其他的考試什麼的﹐你才要去應用﹐你沒有的話﹐我不會貼著一個新住民到處跑﹐不會這樣﹐所以我們要的是說﹐我們要聽這個法是要照顧有需要的人﹐不是說多少人都可以用身分別來這邊享受這個福利﹐這個照顧﹐因為我們下面的﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9790.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9809.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
很多條都是有規定、有機制、有需要才能去應用的不是因為我是新住民我就是要用這一條了不是這樣子的說法啦我覺得是其他我可以說大家可以再討論但是我們不必要去增訂這一條因為本來你前面就是讓他私印後變成台灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9817.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9841.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
事因後他成為台灣人了 他要應用這邊 或者沒有應用 他有權利決定嘛 對不對 我的意思是這樣謝謝 我們請羅美玲委員請發言謝謝院長 我支持麥義貞委員的說法 因為我是覺得這十九條其實真的不需要增訂我是真的覺得是化蛇添足 根本就不需要所以這部分是不是可以請行政單位拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9843.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9872.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好 行政院內政部 劉部長跟內政部說話這樣好不好 因為我們在法律的體力上面我們還是可不可以請法務部幫我們解釋一下就是說我們大家都知道 你說生活輔助 其他的照顧服務都是要放進去但是如果你把它拿掉以後 會不會有其他的在法律體力上面 適用上的困擾 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9873.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9887.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
法務部有代表過來黃珊珊委員要發言是吧黃珊珊委員請發言院長部長我覺得如果這一條原來都在版本裡面沒有的話就真的沒必要增訂嘛反正 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9888.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9916.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
意思一樣他拿了身份證他本來就要服臺灣的兵役在臺灣念書全力以赴都是就叫做廢話啦我覺得那如果說優先不優先也沒有什麼優先不優先他已經是國民他就是服中華民國的法律這條沒有徵定的必要也沒關係第二個你說他的權益沒有受影響那就不用徵定啦好不好就把它拿掉啦這條我具體建議拿掉比較好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9917.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9925.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好 謝謝三位委員都表達希望能夠取消這個第十九條條文請問法務部的廖參是在現場嗎請表達意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9932.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9949.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
主席、各位委員我們從內政部的立法說明已經有說明清楚了就是說政定十九條的規範價值是在避免資源重疊就是說它想要有本國國民的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9950.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9976.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那同時又享有原住民權利那它在政策上希望優先使用國民的權利不要說兩邊的資源有重疊的狀況那政策上要不要這樣的抉擇我想就尊重大家的決定就說它有它的規範價值啦謝謝廖參事我們接下來請羅美林委員再發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9980.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9982.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我們接著請柯建民總召會員祝各位大家想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
10009.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
10036.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我想很多人都在想像一個事情就是他是中華民國國民他曾經是親住民他想要雙重身分雙重資源一定是在想這個事情但我告訴各位有的是他因為有中華民國國民所以他想要的權利比他還在親住民的還好比如中低收入他中華民國國民當然有中低收入親住民我們沒有中低收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
10039.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
10057.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以你要優先用優惠是好的先撤開那你其他要照顧的當然是普遍照顧 包括教育文化等等 那個是可以永續的去處理謝謝柯總召的說明 接下來黃珊委員發言 蘇巧慧委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
10058.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
10087.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
謝謝我想大家都是一樣希望能夠照顧所以我的意思是說因為他已經是國民不用再憂了就他本來就是國民他就是要做要繳稅要當兵他本來就有憂了不用再憂了所以這條我覺得有點多詞易舉第二個剛剛講的你既然不會拿掉他既有的權益保障生活照顧輔助這些都不會的話就這條就拿掉大家也不用爭因為你是不是全你已經是國民的國民的權利義務你 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
10088.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
10110.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
就已經拿到了,不用再優先試用啦,我覺得沒有必要好不好,謝謝院長等一下,我們不要去想像你要有雙重之言,那是不可能的啊,大家要想清楚啊好,謝謝,我們現在請尊重,我們下面是蘇巧慧委員,請蘇副委員發言好,謝謝院長,謝謝主席喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
10111.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
10134.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我覺得如果是要訂這個第十九條其實它的原意應該是要在說當我們今天大家一起努力創設出了這樣一部專法之後它就變成是一部特別法所以有關這個新住民權益的事務跑出來的時候我們就優先適用這部特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
10135.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
10139.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好 可是當我們也大家都同意就是說我們這部法要保障的是從全世界各國來的人成為了我們國家的新住民之後我們要陪伴他、鼓勵他、協助他度過這一段度過期的之後然後變成了國民是在保障這一段所以他終有一天會變成國民嘛那他成為國民之後就當然就適用我國的權利義務國民的狀況了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
10162.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
10185.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那在這個狀況下所以我相信當時寫了第十九條是為了要把這件事情說明清楚就是當這個身份過度完成之後這個人就會變成是中華民國國民當然就是要優先適用中華民國的權利義務我想這一條寫的部分只是要再註明這個部分吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
10186.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
10188.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
如果我的理解沒有錯誤的話 那麼我會覺得剛剛出來說明的不知道是哪一個單位 非常的不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
10194.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
10208.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這才叫做多此一舉因為只是把上面的文字照唸我自己看就懂了對我也能夠理解是這樣所以我會建議是如果各位委員也都認為說其實想像不出來這是會是一個什麼樣的狀況因為沒有任何會有這種雙重資源浪費因為事實上特別法規定的就是新住民過渡的階段他已經變成國民了就是國民了大家也就是照正常法他就脫離了這部法律這樣子來走了這本來就是這樣規定了的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
10224.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
10243.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好 那大家都同意不用再多此一舉的規定那這一條其實可以把它變成是在第二條的立法說明的最後一項變成是立法說明也可以啊也可以是放在這裡就可以了不一定要成為一個新設的第十九條的文字那這樣我也可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
10244.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10271.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那我是認為政府 行政部門在討論 在解釋 在說明自己的理由的時候是不是應該是像我這樣那這種說法 與會的委員會不會比較聽得懂剛才那個單位是法務部的廖參事我可以報告一下不好意思 廖參事 因為他不知道哪一位他講的是沒有錯啊請柯建民空口招要發言是吧沒有 他講的也沒有錯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10274.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10290.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他是男的他還是女的他?柯總統說法務部六三事講得非常的好,我補充一下那接下來各位委員同仁還有沒有什麼其他的意見?沒有這樣我們就放在第二條的立法說明裡面,好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10300.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10309.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那各位黨團幹部我們內政部所增訂第十九條剛剛我們吳仕耀委員說希望病人討論我們就不予採納好現在我們繼續往第三條第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10311.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10333.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
報告 報告院長您可不可以裁示一下就是第二條裡面是不是按照各位委員所提到的就是說把我們剛剛所主張的這個部分就是一段話放在第二條的立法說明裡面把它明確化那我們就了解我們當然是尊重這個檔案我想這應該 劉部長講這個是有道理的我們就把剛剛19條這個放在我們第二條條的立法說明裡面我們同意 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝院長好 現在第三條 謝謝 請繼續我們請第三條請 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10338.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10358.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
再請劉部長請第三條我們現在談的第三條第三條的主管機關就是原來如果是按照行政院所提的版本的話那主管機關是在內政部我們沒有意見我們還是有一些措施是沒有關係的各位黨黨幹部這一條應該沒有問題啦好我們通過來我們現在下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10361.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10382.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
第三條第三條沒有意見第三條沒有意見我們先往第四條第四條我們還是請內政部來幫忙先說明一下謝謝內政部這也是一樣就是專責單位還是我們剛剛所提的部分就是它這個專責單位那未來到底是私還是屬的話我們等一下還是可以再繼續討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10386.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10413.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部第四條沒有意見吧因為內政部現在在研究我們將來附帶決議好不好好謝謝接下來我們請第五條請內政部好謝謝第五條也是一樣因為可能有的人會覺得說我們未來的這個主管機關如果是內政部的話呢是不是沒有辦法跨部會再處理有關相關的權利的義務的保障那所以我們還是一樣行政院一定要召開一個新住民事務協調會 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10414.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10421.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
也就是說他這個位階也是納在一個諮詢性的角色但是在行政院的位階以上各位委員請牛委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10422.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10444.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
可不可以請內政部說明一下你現行因為就我了解現在就有新住民事務協調匯報嘛你們有定期召開嗎大概什麼時候一次因為這件事情當然不見得要寫在法條裡面啦但我們也許做附帶決議讓這個東西的機制完整一點定期召開等等讓它更清楚一點讓這個所謂的新住民事務協調匯報可以發揮它的功能是不是請內政部說明一下 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10445.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10465.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
他原來是一個設置要點他是一個行政規範而已那現在的這個開會的這個頻率是半年一次但是你把他納進去以後呢未來我們還有其他我想在頻率或是說在擴大的適用上面會一定會加強請問部長將來有專責單位的時候還要寫了會報那寫了會報的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10473.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10500.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我問他嘛謝謝那個剛剛我有跟 呃 謝謝總召剛剛我有跟大家報告就是說我們的主管機關是內政部那但是呢 未來有關有關 比如說我們可能要對 跨部會協商 比如說要跟陸委會協商要跟勞動部或是衛福部協商的話到原住民的協調匯報他有一個比較綜合性的跨部會的一個協調匯報那我們比較好執行 以上那有層級呢層級在行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10503.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10507.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
行政院為研議協調及推動本法相關事務應召開新住民事務協調匯報 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10518.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10534.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
應定期召開新住民事務協調彙報為什麼這麼講是因為 主要在召開的召這個前面加定期兩個字應定期召開好不好因為為什麼因為你如果說你這樣寫的話好像應召開那就召開一次之後這一條就就沒用了你知道為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10535.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10562.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
當然我還是一樣我們今天就是展現今天展現就是對新住民的這個照顧跟關懷那我也肯定行政院的版本這提出來是已經主動說要召開那我們就是應定期召開好不好 謝謝各位黨團幹部報告我們洪孟愷書記長所提就是說在第五條應召開前面加兩個字 定期召開各位黨團 其他黨團有沒有寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10563.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10575.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
如果沒有的話,我們就照草原協商通過,好不好?好,照草原協商條文通過,謝謝現在有台灣民眾黨最新提出來修正動議第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10578.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10593.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
已經分發到各位委員的手上第九條政府因為國家考試設立新住民事務、語言等相關類科以因應新住民公務之需求我們請考選部劉長赤請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10596.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10625.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
主席各位委員 考選部在此就這個第九條表達不連接劉市長 劉市長你可能上班木柵太遠了我們都聽不見你聲音 你大聲一點是 第一個本部充分了解提案委員對新自民事務語言的重視但是我們要說明類科的設置跟硬式科目是不同層次的概念以高考三級來講每一個類科底下原則會設四個專業科目用來評量它所需要的核心職能而語言能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10626.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10649.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
應該是屬於核心職能中的一項（所以我們舉個例子（以僑務行政這個類科來講（它的應試科目就有列考一個外國文（那中間是可以顯示英日語、泰文（越南文、印尼文、緬甸文等不同的語言（那另外還針對它職務的需求（設置了行政法、僑務行政、國際關係等三個科目（合計四個科目（ |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10649.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10678.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以如果用人機關．因為業務需要．有透過新住民事務行政類科．來禁用特定語文人才的需求．我們建議可以在這個類科底下．採選試科目的方式．來納入不同的新住民語言．達到他的任用需求所以總結來說．我們觀察這個條文．認為行政院版本的條文．已經可以在符合現在的考選．跟人事制度底下取材．建議還是依照行政院版本來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10679.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10705.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那敬請委員支持 謝謝謝謝我們考選部的劉次長清楚的說明現在我們請提案的臺灣民進黨黨團請說明第九條的部分我掙扎的說議員的考試考試院有來說明說就是類科就有在裡面了所以這個部分我們不堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10710.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10739.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那我們就第九條修正草案我們不採納好謝謝報告各位黨團幹部我們現在所有保障條文都已經討論完畢了那我們現在討論附帶決議再請大家稍微等一下我們現在有收到三案三案現在內政部剛剛那一案還沒送來內政部的那個還正在炒泥總共目前手上三個還有一個內政部等一下第四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10740.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10752.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
第一個我們請台灣民進黨黨團所提附帶決議一、十二年國民基本課程綱要所需中小學的新住民課文老師請提案的黨團、民進黨黨團請說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10762.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10777.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 謝謝主席有關這個附帶決議我們的意見是說由於目前十二年國民基本課程的綱要中所需的中小學新住民員課程失資採雙軌制用教學支援的人員為主那正式的失資為輔 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10779.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10796.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
教學支援工作人員的聘任方式是學校自辦、徵選或聘用,以及地方政府辦理師資聘任聯合徵選,統籌規劃跨校徵選以聯合聘任教學支援人員,再用教育部來協調跨縣市的師資組成聘為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10797.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10805.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
請教育部在本法通過三個月之內研議由中央主管機關定定統一定定徵選的標準的可行性還有嚴加把關師資專業能力我們希望教育部這邊能夠一併來協助謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10828.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10843.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
麻煩教育部列席的官員請說明教育部這個部分我們會由教育部國教署會協調各縣市那我們會配合辦理以上說明謝謝教育部的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10846.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10857.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我想就這樣,我們掌握時間好不好?如果教育部已經同意了嘛,好不好?附帶決議如果第一案那我們就通過了,第二案我們提案的台灣民眾黨請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10858.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10876.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好 謝謝 我想新住民因為語言的隔閡﹐跟政府機關有資訊落差﹐所以各機關政府跟法院要陳述意見的時候﹐常常面臨通譯不足的人的問題﹐還有通譯沒有辦法在專業用語上﹐完整的表達新住民陳述的語意﹐導致新住民的權益受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10877.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10896.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以希望內政部移民署在本法通過三個月內能夠原意由中央主管機關建立各國語言通譯的檢定以鑒別通譯翻譯的品質確保新住民的權益不會因為語言差異而受到損害就是希望他們能夠建立相關的檢定的機制 以上請內政部說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10897.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10913.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
謝謝院長我想這個部分有討論的必要先跟民眾黨解釋一下就好像目前為止我們在做英文檢定的時候也不是由我們的國家的政府或者是日文檢定一定是日本政府辦或者是美國政府來辦一樣的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10914.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10928.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以我們為了要處理有關新住民在語言上面就是文化適應上面對台灣環境上面的部分我們行政院在一百一十二年就是去年年底的時候剛剛通過一個叫做通譯制度精進的事辦計畫那這個事辦計畫今年的四月一號才上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10933.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10956.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
按照行政院的這個召開會議的結論是計劃在試辦的階段要希望能夠試辦兩年所以如果這樣子的一個附帶決議的話可不可以把它改成說請內政部於本法三讀通過後一年內研議檢討同意制度相關精進作為以確保新住民的權益不會因為語言差異而受到損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10957.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10972.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
也就是說現在的行政院已經有一個精進作為了但是我們沒有辦法當一個說我們是越南文或是印尼文的一個通過了主辦機關這個跟我們的那個有你們來研議建立的制度這部分拿掉嘛所以你們那裡要怎麼精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10974.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10992.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
是 剛剛有提到就是行政院已經通過這個版本它的精進作為就是說比如說協助剛剛來的新住民他在語言上面怎麼樣很快速學習台灣的語言等等這些那這個呢 並不是屬於通譯制度它其實是一個生活適應上的部分那這樣的精進作為的話會在各 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10993.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11007.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
各個部會,不是只有內政部﹐譬如說包括教育部或是包括文化部那文化部的話﹐他們現在也有一個叫做這個語言的學習中心﹐所以有三、四個部會都會同樣來推動這個部分那因為它是試行兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11009.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11030.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
事行兩年 從今年四月一號就是三個月前才剛剛上路所以如果有任何其他的精進作為的話我們願意來檢討改進但是先讓他示範看看如果在處理新住民事務尤其是語言的通譯服務上面有困難的話我們會在精進作為裡面要求行政院跟其他的部會一起來做改善 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11031.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11054.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
內政部所提的這個非常清楚我剛剛劉部長念的也寫得非常好就內政部在本法三讀通過一年之後一年之內研議檢討同意制度相關經歷作為以確保新住民權益不會因語言差異而受到損害非常好好不好我們修正通過好謝謝好現在我們劉我們現在第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11062.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11085.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我們剛才劉許庭委員提了一個修正附帶決議我現在唸給大家聽大家都已經在手上都有了就是本法立法通過實施一年之後主管機關應提出新住民權益保障相關措施及設置新住民專責中央三級行政機關執行報告以落實新住民各項基本權益之保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11086.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11105.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
並立後續檢討政策或再修法之參考提案人 劉許廷委員以及洪孟凱委員、傅坤熙委員、張志倫委員、黃珊珊委員那關於這個麻煩再請內政部請報告好 謝謝三級機關他剛講的他剛加的剛就失選的那個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11114.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11134.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
來成立一個所 先做民選報告院長 這個有牽涉到是我們的人事行政總署可不可以請他來做一下補充報告好嗎人事總署手上有拿到資料請李副人事長 請跟會長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11135.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11159.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
有關於我們中央行政機關的這個相關的設置規定在我們的中央行政機關基本準則裡面請保持會場的安靜,謝謝,對不起,你稍等一下因為現在人事總處在報告,請聽一下在行政機關組織準則裡面規定三期機關的局數以七十個為限目前七十個已經滿了 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11162.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11189.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那另外還有一個規定是在就是行政機關組織基礎法實施以後不能在作用法裡面規定機關的形態以上報告那換句話說施的話就是沒問題所以原來行政版本是沒問題好關於人事組織報告這個非常重要請問各位委員沒報告請黃珊珊委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11190.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11191.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我們剛剛是國民黨團這邊提的附帶決議沒有加入這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11215.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11233.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好專責的這三級機關那其實這應該是脫鉤的那個來第一我們是要求是就是要提出執行報告這個一年後要提出執行報告這個是要讓我們立法院這民營機關能夠做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11235.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11250.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
中央三級行政機關的部分應該是剛剛院長在裁市的時候的附帶決議所以說這個文字必須要有內政部這邊要提出來給我們那各黨大家簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11251.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11270.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以我想這是不一樣的我講一下 剛才院長有裁示嘛 有一個婦大結議 就是未來專責單位嘛那這是一件事情 那在這個要脫鉤的話 我們沒問題我們既然院長部要提一個就自己提一個 不要再嫁接在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11272.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11290.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
但是我比較建議就是說,一年後一年以後,你這個只是檢討報告、施政報告、檢討報告嘛你落實新入門檢疫的保障,後面那些可不可以發表以利後續、政策後再修法,好像我們這個法斷搞了好像我們一定要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11294.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11320.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我跟總召報告一下啦這個附帶決議會寫出來的理由就是因為當初在名稱上面大家有一些意見不一樣嘛現在名稱一致了對那當然就總你總要讓我們有一個說法我們擔心的就是說以現在的法條內容不夠完整對不對但是因為今天還是要有個結果嘛所以在名稱上面我們願意讓點步但相對來講你總要讓我有一個說法嘛對不對就是說我後續萬一真的如部分的民團所質疑的我們的法條內容不夠強 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11322.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11347.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
立到不足夠的時候我總要講說我們未來會有一個再精進的空間符合這個先求有再求好的精神我老闆 你要按照說法沒問題但我現在剛剛才大家同意都沒有意見了然後你又留意侯總以後要翻本的樣子沒有我倒還特別加入檢討政策或者是修法剛立完了以後就要再重新修法這搞什麼鬼啊要不然就再修法拿掉了沒關係啦不行不行不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11348.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11355.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
新宗有佛看別人都是佛啦我建議啦我們就叫病例後續政策檢討啦阿這樣子啦我覺得大家齁病例後續政策檢討啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11373.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11378.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
政策檢討包括你要再修法本來就是立委的權限嘛修完要再講修法我們再幫你搞一下嘛第一個這都已經把檢討的那種貨債修法大家都是立法委員我隨時都可以提出修法那修法也不是說誰說了算大家一定是有共識那怎麼會我們這樣提出說再修法的參考這樣子也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11396.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11404.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我的語氣到現在都一樣只是我覺得說我講不通的是立法委員每天都可以提修法的天堂如果說這一年執行下來沒有問題對不對那不就沒問題了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11412.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11431.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
現場等一下喔我講一個很誠懇的話是我在這個三十年來從來沒有看過我們修法馬上給一個附帶決議要再修法那老虎自己的那沒有那個事情啦謝謝報告總召剛剛敲槌通過三讀通過了打詐釋法裡面的詐欺危害條例就有這樣子的附帶決議就是我提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11433.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11459.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
你那個 如果要這樣講你剛剛沒 打炸以前沒有 剛剛就有打炸無法 年前才修過 然後今天又打炸釋法那每一次我們每個人大家都支持那支持的 那時候打炸無法的時候是不是就支持是不是那時候政府有講是說打炸無法通過之後可以主持答案不到一年之後你又再有打炸釋法所以修法本來就是與時俱進 如果真的有需要大家就修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11460.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11461.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
三年公共保障和隱私基金這首個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11465.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11485.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們今天都很心平氣和 但是在這個 現在這個經濟突然間好像要大人要這個要指導一樣 我覺得這樣說不通這個是買一個想要翻本的 沒有 絕對沒有不要把自己的那個然後就懷疑別人 我們一直強調這個是很中性的我們只是說有在修法的參考這怎麼會是自己漏氣之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11491.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11519.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
大家先把麥克風壓掉好不好請主席來宣布好不好柯總召這個不要也千萬不要聯想太多謝謝吳社委我們這個聶許廷委員原始如果沒有把這部剛剛所那個加進去就單純化很多就是聶許廷委員的附帶決議是本法立法院通過實施一年之後主管機關應提出新住民權益保障相關措施之執行報告以落實新住民各項基本權益之保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11520.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11523.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
並立後續檢討政策或再修法之參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11542.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11557.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我是希望能夠把事情很順各位如果同意我們就附帶決議通過現在我們就等內政部最後一個我們準備要發大家的晚餐請大家再稍微等一下請內政部最後一個附帶決議給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11599.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11613.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
各位黨團幹部 敬請大家稍安勿躁我們先念協商結論我們先念協商結論麻煩請保持會場的安靜 謝謝立法院黨團協商結論時間113年7月2日星期二下午12點46分至3時18分地點紅樓302會議室我們協商主題病案審查羅美玲22位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11628.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11654.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
王美惠十九位委員分別凝聚新住民權益保障法草案臺灣民眾黨黨團張志倫等十八位國民黨團蘇巧惠等二十六位及邱正軍等二十七位立法委員凝聚新住民基本法草案案（二、行政院涵義審議新住民權益保障法草案案（三、 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11655.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11671.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
范雲等十七位委員凝聚新住民權益保障法草案案（四、吳佩奕等十六位委員凝聚新住民權益保障法草案案（五、吳思瑤等十七位委員凝聚新住民權益保障法草案案（協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11673.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11697.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
一、各黨團同意本法案以行政院提案為討論基礎 照行政院版本通過條文法案名稱第一條、第三條、第四條、第六條、第七條、第九條、第十條、第十二條至第十九條二、協商通過條文第二條、第五條、第八條、第十一條如附件三、審查會保留至第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11699.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11715.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
羅美玲等二十二位委員提案等第六條、蘇巧慧等二十六位提案第十條、王美惠等十九位提案第九條、邱振鈞等二十七位委員提案第四條、審查會通過之第十二條均不予採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11717.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11741.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
四、委員提案及相關修正動議均列入紀錄刊登公報五、補充立法說明如復見六、協商通過附帶決議十二項含審查會決議兩項我們現在等最後一項就是內政部所擬的最後一個附帶決議請大家稍微等一下那我們等最後一條內政部這個通過我們這個就協商我先簽字 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11756.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11782.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
依序麻煩各黨團幹部請簽字好 謝謝跟黨團幹部報告一下這 我們內政部的附帶決議已經來了就是本法立法院通過一年內內政部會成立專責單位好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11788.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11791.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
立政部應成立專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11806.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11811.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
剛剛跟大家報告過了就是我們在討論的過程當中目前為止不要修到任何組織條例結構的話就是在內政部下面設新住民司是最快的那人員的話我們也跟人總尋求支持大概會在十幾到二十個人左右跟現在的一個小小的科是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11829.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11843.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
如果有人認為需要成立中心或是署的話 按照剛剛任總的說法現在署的組織架構在所有的行政院系統已經滿了你變成要去掉某一個署才能把我們這個新住民署放上去 這個要曠日廢食 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11845.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11863.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以如果讓我們可以多做一些內部的協調包括跟人種的協調的話所以我們剛剛在附帶決議裡面寫專責單位也是在我們條文裡面附設的非常清楚但是無論如何它的組織架構程度會跟我們現在的移民署是一樣的平行的以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11868.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11893.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
現在有七十個隱瞞的除非你修中央政府組織基準法還有組織法 中央政府組織法還要再修 這個很麻煩的這個就沒有那麼簡單的當然副總召也認知這個事情嘛能夠做事比較重要 能夠照顧比較重要不是說數靠聽沒問題 沒有人為事情資源應該如何配置比較重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11896.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11910.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們從比較實際的來看我覺得先陳律師然後運作一段時間之後如果有需要我們要再往上我覺得那才是比較務實的比較實際的做法啦謝謝張宏祿委員 現在洪孟凱文請發言這個我請教一下我們人事總書還是相關單位因為我看到這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11917.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11939.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
中央行政機關組織基準法第25條它有所謂的機關裡面內部單位分一級二級那一級內部單位就是有包含司嘛 對不對那所以如果說這樣寫的話我想我們還是要明確因為你說專責單位到最後來一個科這種不行嘛 對不對所以說我就一級一級專職單位是不是一級專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11946.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11952.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
不是啦我現在確認一下因為我現在就說私的部分到底是在他是不是有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11956.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11980.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這就中央主義基本法二十五條所以我想說是不是這樣就明確把他我現在講的是說既然我們大家都有一個方向就是說他就是內政部下面的這個黃孟雄我提醒你一下你講完這個人是行政總署啊我感覺他越來越易事好像試一下讓他發言好不好好 好 好 但是我們把他給明確他就是要成立一個師他們是最專門的師對 那是怎麼樣形容好不好 謝謝好 請請請 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11981.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
12006.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這跟會商報告,在比如說部或者委員會級的這個組織裡面的一級單位就內部的一級單位叫做師,業務單位叫師,幕僚單位叫處那二級單位就是社科,這樣的,麻煩所以是內部,內將部內的一級單位我剛剛就在想說不然就成立專責司級單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
12009.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
12018.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
就是解除我們麥委員的疑慮我們希望內政部這個決議能夠調整一下本法立法通過一年內內政部成立一個專責司級單位就加兩個字好不好可以嗎人事總署再請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
12034.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12041.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
是不是可以建立修正委內政部設一級單位?一級單位就是失了,一級業務單位就是失 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12051.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12075.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
現在我們再唸一下大家 現在人事總書 請常務陸委員先不是 院長 我覺得啦齁 阿剛剛麥委員想說私籍單位我們就尊重他 就私籍就好了啦反正 那個行政機關自己的怎麼樣呢 自己都看得懂啊 我們就私籍就好了啊那一級私籍啦這級也沒有關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12078.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12106.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
四級還是四級?超級啊!謝謝院長因為我們是就是我們柯總召說的希望就是要服務要照顧但是私放在我們的內政部裡面是行政單位但是新住民是普遍全國啦所以為什麼我說如果沒有辦法二級單位的話有個署的話我們是可以設不同的站或者局處這樣在地方才落實的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12107.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12107.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
國民黨黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12138.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12145.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
不是照顧人家 讓人家發不揮啊 對不對 不能讓人家講話 你在插嘴我的意思是說 你要栽培人 就要人家發揮嘛 對不對 不能說用一個師 就是在這行政作業而已 對不對 我都發揮啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12155.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12156.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
內政部所通過這個決議您能不能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12175.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12183.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
各位委員同仁我們現在內政部所送過來本法立法通過一年內內政部將成立專責的一級單位大家有沒有意見沒有意見通過非常感謝大家我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12205.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12209.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
對 我們七點五十分開始好了 休息 大家吃晚飯好 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
14854.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
14873.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
謝謝 謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝謝謝本院總秘書長、各位黨團幹部、各位委員、同仁、各位列席的閣員跟官員非常謝謝大家各位官員、閣員的參與今天介紹一下今天各單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
14882.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
14909.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們今天列席的官員、閣議員我特別介紹一下首先歡迎國家發展委員會的彭副主委歡迎您內政部劉部長他剛才在現在董次長歡迎您經濟部的何次長歡迎您勞動部的許次長歡迎您交通部的陳次長歡迎您衛福部的呂次長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
14910.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
14932.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
原住民的古仲副主委 歡迎您行政院主席總署的陳副主席長 歡迎您報告各位黨團幹部、各位列席的所有官員我們現在繼續協商的是國民黨團凝聚零四零三災政重建條例草案本案經第一會及第十次會議決定近乎二讀並由國民黨團負責召集協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
14935.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
14961.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
本席因國民黨黨團請求對本案進行首次協商針對本法案的內容我們先請提案的國民黨黨團代表進行說明再由相關部門請回應我們先從法案名稱開始進行討論請國民黨團先說明謝謝院長、柯總召、各政黨代表人、各部會首長這是一個比較嚴肅的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
14963.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
14989.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
因為從今年四月三號到現在已經時隔三個多月那這次的震度是七點二級跟九二一大地震的七點三級是完全同級的大地震那當時在九二一大地震發生之後在兩週內立法院就立刻通過了這個九二一的震災條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
14990.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
15011.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那接著下來在莫拉克風災的時候也是非常嚴重也是在最短的時間內立法院馬上通過了這個莫拉克的重建條例那跟大家報告就是說這一次的地震到現在災民五千多人無家可歸到現在都還沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
15014.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
15042.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們也感謝陳建仁前行政院長他匡列了也通過285.5億這個要做整個政災以及重建以及振興就行政院已經核定了285.5億那在這裡面因為隔了三個月現在的狀況非常的嚴峻非常的嚴峻 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
15044.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
15044.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
國民黨黨團提議 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
15071.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
15094.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以接下來這個本來就是弱勢的地區的這些以觀光產業為主的這些飯店旅館民宿餐廳他們有面對的一個就是要怎麼樣員工是不是還要繼續聘用銀行的利息還要繼續繳所以現在包括這麼大的一個大集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
15099.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
15123.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
五、雲朗集團在花蓮漢平飯店終止營業五、五星旗在太魯閣山上的京英酒店停止營業現在花蓮停止營業的飯店越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
15125.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
15125.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
國民黨黨團提議．三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
15149.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
15177.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
國債市場所以現在各種的問題都非常的嚴重然後呢尤其是災民的部分災民現在固然有這兩百八十五億裡面有對他們有暫時的這個租房租房的這個補助但是這個期限六個月以後又再六個月那現在租房你說一家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
15178.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
15202.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
他要去租一個房子他能住多久那我們現在請了慈濟協助幫忙慈濟的也是只蓋一個中紀屋而且中紀屋要一年以後才能完工那現在還有包括房子倒了他是有貸款的他現在不是破產而已還要去還款 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
15206.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
15224.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
現在這麼大的一個問題而且本來就是一個經濟弱勢的地區現在這些問題要怎麼解決那也謝謝行政院有匡列285億那基本上我們這一次是純粹就人的部分災民的部分所以就行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
15225.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
15253.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
所匡列的民防災損安置及重建58.4億這是中央匡列的還有產業振興40.8億針對中央匡列的部分總共99.2億我們的條例就是在修正的部分我們修正為99.2億完完全全就是行政院匡列的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
15256.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
15275.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
這張圖卡大家看到第二頁的這個圖卡就是行政院網站上公告的是完全是以行政院的版本為主那其他的公共建設這個重建補強的部分184億內由中央去進行處理還有其他的部分1.9億 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
15277.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
15292.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我要特別強調這五十八點四億跟四十點八億是用在所有包括新北、臺北、花蓮、桃園、紅丹戶、黃丹戶通通在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
15295.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
15322.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
也是符合當時行政會核定的這個部分也是針對零四零二大地震所有受災的地方都一體適用希望說這個能夠給災民最大的協助跟幫忙記得2018年零二零六大地震的時候花蓮的烏島災民大概是兩百人我們大概在一個很短的時間能夠處理完 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
15325.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
15325.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
總共一千九百戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
15346.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
15364.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
所以現在這個問題已經有五、六千的災民要怎麼去處理我打斷一下麻煩請國防會的彭副主委要準備發言結束要請您說明了所以現在我聽到大家在講說誰要來主責這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
15367.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
15392.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以這個條例有三十二條因為原有的條例二十四條、二十五條已經刪除因為那個已經不合時宜了那基本大家報告這個條例後面大概都要講比如說第一條是參照莫拉克風災的重建條例第二條也是參照莫拉克風災第三條是參照莫拉克風災民進黨團所提出的當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
15393.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
15416.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以這裡面的每一條幾幾戶都是按照過去災情的時候我們所走過的路然後用當時的這個情況來希望比照辦理能夠盡快把這次所有災民受災戶的問題能夠盡快來解決好不好 謝謝也請各政黨代表能夠來支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
15417.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
15433.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
政黨委員 莊瑞雄委員要發言莊瑞雄委員發言完以後請彭主委準備發言彭主委發言完畢以後請內政部跟經濟部兩位政次還有交通部的三位政次請準備發言我先通知一下你們好準備一下好 請莊瑞雄委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
15434.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
15461.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
謝謝院長,還有我們協商代表。我剛聽了副委員講,聽起來心很痛。為地方,尤其是幫災民,努力的來協助,這個大家都可以理解。但是我是聽到這個數字,我是嚇了一跳。紅單跟黃單,小虎你剛才說全歸一丁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
15462.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
15466.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
一千多 這個是不是先請 我要先釐清一下這個我只想問這個數字到底對還是不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
15473.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
15497.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
你們給我的跟副總召講的我那數字真的是差距很大光花蓮 花蓮部分一千九百四十九戶紅磚跟紅磚真的是一千多你說多少一千九百多那你們給我們的數字的紅單跟黃單裡面我怎麼數字加一加是一百多呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
15499.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
15500.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
董事長、董事長、董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
15514.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
15531.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
目前我們根據我們相關紅單黃黃單的資料統計那在花蓮縣的部分我們張貼紅單的部分是九十張張貼黃單的部分是九十二張那不需要張貼危險標誌的是七百六十一戶那已經拆除了有十七戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
15532.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
15542.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
這是目前我們針對花蓮縣的部分那麼全台總共張貼紅單的有110戶那張貼黃單的有207戶不需要張貼的違憲建屋大概有2681戶那已拆除戶19戶以上莊委員請繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
15554.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
15561.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
專委員請繼續OK 好我們再請副會長我謝謝專委員在關心我說一下內政部這個說法實在是真的要改進我再講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
15572.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
15587.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
紅單集合住宅十七棟都是十三層以上的是紅單黃單有二十七棟單一住宅紅單有七十五間 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
15589.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
15600.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
黃單單一住宅有七十九件大樓雖然你們算一張紅單但是它裡面有上百戶所以我再講一次戶數戶數紅單七百九十八戶黃單 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
15611.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
15614.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
一千一百五十一戶 總共一千九百四十九戶接下來我們請國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
15628.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
15647.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
彭副主委,請您發言。好,謝謝。謝謝主席,然後各位委員,大家晚安。那因為我只能就,實際上政災發生之後,其實我們在新政府在五二一,五月二十一號已經由院長這邊召開了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
15649.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
15664.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
專案會議 專案會議也特別有強調就是說會成立一個零四零三的地震專案小組由院長擔任召集人由我們正副院長擔任督導各項復原的重建工作由工程會跨部會的做主責會診國科會 國發會來專責辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
15668.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
15669.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
三、研 三、研 三、研 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
15689.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
15710.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
三個原則來協助花蓮及其他的縣市政府﹐如期如止的、全面有效率的﹐來完成這個災後復原的工作那﹐以上報告謝謝謝謝 彭副主席您現在知道為什麼第一個點名你因為行政院左院長交代由國發會來統籌所以請您第一個報告 請您理解好不好好 謝謝我們現在請經濟部﹐我們何次長 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
15716.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
15741.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好 謝謝主席還有各位委員那緊救經濟部目前在這個震災之後所提供的一些輔導的部分跟各位委員報告一下那我們的這個輔導措施有包括對一些產業的振興扶老像這個花蓮有實在產業那實在產業我們協助對破碎的食材做清運那以 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
15742.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
15761.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這個截至目前為止,到七月三日為止,我們已經協助清運了大概百分之四十二點三,然後總共有兩萬九千六百四十噸的這個食材那另外就是我們也提供低利貸款,那目前已經有乘坐了六點五億元的這個融資的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
15762.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
15784.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
另外我們還有提供一些水電的一些減免的一些補助措施包括房屋毀損不堪居住的那我們針對這個水電的費用免收月費這個三到八月的這個水電那另外針對食材災損的廠商我們也免收半年的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
15785.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
15807.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
水電費五到十月份的這個水電的基本水電費那針對這個美倫、和平跟光華三處產業園區進度的廠商我們也提供一個這個公用設施維護費的減半徵收是四月到十二月那以上是經濟部所提供的這個相關的產業輔導跟振興的一個措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
15809.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
15825.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那另外當然還有一個是商圈啦商圈目前還有跟這個花蓮縣政府在合辦一些聯合行銷還有這個好物的展售會的這些相關的活動那以上謝謝經濟部的報告接下來我們請交通部陳次長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
15832.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
15856.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
主席還有各位我簡單就交通部的立場來做說明那有關這個零四零三震災了以後我們在交通部大概分三個方向來做處理一個是有關公路的搶修跟那個鐵路的一個搶災這些大概都編有相關的預算而且這些預算目前都在執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
15856.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
15878.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
執行中 到目前為止 所有的鐵路是正常的行駛公路除了下清水橋因為要復建到年底的關係所以在白天有三個時段是管制通行其他時間也都是可以不受限制的所以有關蔬果的相關運送大概也不是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
15880.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
15890.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
大家比較關心的是有關光光的部分那光光的部分剛才委員特別有提到相關的住房確實是在四月的時候是非常的嚴峻但是隨著這個時間的經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
15895.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
15917.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
各部會各單位的一個努力稍微可以做說明四月份的時候的住房率大概只有14%在五月份的時候又更低了一點13.59%但是到六月我們已經發現它已經回升到24.17%所以我們相信隨著七月暑假的一個旺季的來臨的時候相關的一個有關觀光署相關有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
15919.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
15943.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
住房的優惠或團體旅遊的優惠在那裡點火的話相信可以有一定的一個注意而且從另外一個方面交通部也行文各部會如果有相關的一個活動希望能夠在花蓮舉行交通部也率先有好幾個活動或者是論壇等等的是在花蓮來辦理所以我們希望透過這樣的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
15945.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
15973.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
來對於花蓮的一個剛才特別提到的觀光業有所振興所以以上大概是交通部就這個事件或這個條例的一個看法 以上謝謝謝謝陳次長剛才幾位部會的次長都已經做出報告其實地震會影響到非常多的部會包括我們花蓮原住民委員會衛生福利部等等我們先請了幾位次長報告完畢後歡迎各位黨團各位幹部看一看請吳思堯委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
15977.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
15998.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好 謝謝我想面對這樣子的政災我們的心情都是同樣沉重也都是基於立法委員的職責不管當然副委員是選區立委但是我們身為立法委員都有職責的來全面來協助那今天4月3號到今天剛好是第一百天 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
15999.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
16025.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
第一百天我覺得剛剛副委員是跟大家再報告一下災害的影響的層面也就是災情有多嚴重譬如說有多少紅單的戶數這些觀光受到的波及這其實我們也都看到了確實是造成很大程度的傷害但是在一個災害歷經了一百天之後我們要思考的是現階段的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
16026.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
16055.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
救災（也就是災害協助的實質面（有哪些不足的地方（有哪些應做而未做（或者是應做（但他做了（但是做得不夠到位的地方（應當是在四月三號（到現在第一百天（我們來檢視整個行政部門（從推出零四零三正在復原（重建方案的一百天（到現在（我認為作為立法委員（來檢視也是有其必要的（ |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
16055.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
16074.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
但今天坐在這裏我們要進行的是法案的協商那法案的協商要處理的標的就是副委員領銜的這個零四零三的正在重建條例草案那第一個我要說這個因為委員會是沒有審因為是進付二讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
16076.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
16090.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以就可能我們在理解每一個條文裡頭我盡可能去理解它的必須性跟對應於現在行政部門做了什麼然後我要強調有哪些做了但是做得不夠到位我們都可以來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
16091.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
16113.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我看到副董昭發下來給大家參照的資料裡頭第二頁也附了行政院的有關於我們重建方案的幾個PPT幾個簡報的內容也對應於副董昭從第一次媒體揭露第一次提出來的條例的需求金額是150億 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
16115.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
16139.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那行政部門投入越來越多．那也想把災情救災做得更好．所以行政部門也不斷地在加碼．也因為不斷地去經過試算．進入災區以後更理解需求在哪裡．所以一直到兩百八十五點五億．但是我知道應當就是三百億的規模．有這個準備．所以副總召後來也在媒體上．我也看到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
16140.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
16154.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
那他提出來的這個重建條例的草案的預算規模也就從原始他設定的一百五十億的需求也要調高到三百億這樣那今天條文裡面呢副總召也針對部分的條文有做出修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
16156.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
16175.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那當然就包括一些匡列的金額的支出那這個匡列的金額的支出是對應於行政部門現在有的重建方案已經執行多少或是編列多少的這個額度副總召再把它放回它原本原始規模是一百五十億的這個條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
16177.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
16202.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以,我想我要做這樣子的分析是說﹐我相信副總召也很清楚的看到﹐行政部門的零四零三政災復原重建方案裡頭﹐不管是公共設施搶救重建﹐不管是民防災損安置以及重建﹐乃至於產業振興、企業紓困、急難救助﹐各類的社會福利﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
16203.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
16225.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
等等的面向．我相信行政部門的作為．副總召作為選區立委．他作為官行．都有回應到他今天提出來的．條例的本文裡頭的修正動議．所以某種程度我覺得是．行政部門你們提出來的需求．而你們做出來的這些協力方案．也應當是符合現在華聯需求的．我要講的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
16226.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
16255.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以那這樣驗證回來就是已經進行的行政院沒有立法的狀況之下你們已經做的以及副總召現在試圖在已經進行了一百天的災救之後再用一個條例來處理其實本質項目救災需要的內涵範圍協力的對象其實是對得起來的並沒有什麼是遺漏的並沒有什麼是因做而未做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
16255.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
16263.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
但我要強調有沒有做得到位這個絕對是要做得更好對於災區的重建這是我們難以推諉的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
16264.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
16291.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以說我認為已經行政部門從優、從素、從簡各個方面下去做對於災區的實際的實質的協助這個是最重要的而且已經歷經了一百天那今天如果要再用一個立法的方式那我必須站在立法委員的角度再回到立法的一些經驗上來做探討也跟韓院長做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
16292.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
16314.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
九二一是發生在八十八年九月二十一號那那個時候台灣並沒有一個災救的體系也沒有相關的法規所以李登輝前總統頒布了緊急命令我那時候在立法院我就是幕僚我可能就是坐在後面這一排的那個國會助理所以我就馬上投入了災害防救法的整個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
16315.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
16329.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那﹐那個時候還沒有災害防修法﹐對不起我先更正﹐發生了災害之後﹐因為沒有相關的法規﹐頒布了總統的緊急命令之後﹐國家開始思考﹐我們需要做九二一震災的重建條例﹐用一個條例﹐來滿足﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
16332.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
16354.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
緊急命令的過渡．未來用一個立法的方式．所以是95年2月5號．立法院通過了921重建條例．而之後國家各部門都思考．我們需要一個更全方位的災害防救法．那個時候我是國會幕僚．我就投入了那個時候的立法．所以災害防救法在80．我好像日子講錯了．95． |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
16356.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
16370.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
沒有沒有89年6月對6月災害防救法就完成了所以在災害防救法之後一體適用在天然災害當然災害防救法未來後來也擴充了很多不同的新興的這個災害項目這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
16373.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
16400.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以在防救法之後﹐我們就沒有針對任何的地震類的災害﹐來進行單一的立法﹐特別的立法但是唯一一個﹐有針對特別的天然災害﹐在特別立法的只有一個﹐就是莫拉克風災所以莫拉克風災﹐是現在副總召援引在您的立法裡面﹐很多參照的條文﹐您都援引了莫拉克風災的這個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
16400.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
16425.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那我要說的是﹐也許大家會想﹐既然有災害防救法﹐之後又有莫拉克風災特別條例﹐所以﹐不代表說﹐有了災害防救法﹐其他的﹐天然災害就不可以再有﹐任何的立法﹐可能大家會這樣覺得﹐可是我要告訴大家﹐正因為﹐莫拉克風災的條例﹐特別條例﹐訂定之後﹐災害防救法再一次的﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
16425.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
16452.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
進行更大的翻修翻修的完成是在111年5月24號全文的修正所以我們的災害防救法從早期因應921地震然後到有莫拉克風災之後然後它又更精進的大修然後我們又增加了很多新的項目的災害包括我自己提了火山災害因為我是大屯火山區的立委這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
16453.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
16476.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以災害防救法它基本上已經是一個不斷擴充、不斷地upgrade、不斷地去因應各種救災的能量讓我們的臺灣的救災體系可以用國家隊來投入所以在一百一十一年全文翻修的災害防救法之後就再也沒有任何一個天然災害再需要特別立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
16478.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
16495.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
很清楚的就如同臺南的0206大地震0206大地震也是大家都印象深刻那個時候為什麼沒有也來搞一個特別立法呢因為災害防救法經過檢視它已經足以適用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
16496.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
16523.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以我希望說在一個國家的救災體系都相當完備的災害防救法的機制之下我們實在不宜再針對地震這一類我們已經因應好幾次的這個國家準備跟救災的作為再去做一個特別的單一的立法所以就這個部分我一定要說否則以後可能任何一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
16525.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
16555.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
天然災害都再來一個特別的立法．然後它還有其他的．更優於災害防救法的做法．我覺得這個是我們要檢視的．所以我個人認為災害防救法是．可以來因應應付這一類的．尤其是震災．我們就處於地震相對嚴重的．是臺灣最重大的天然災害的類別．災害類型那我希望回到災害防救法的體系．而事實上災害防救法的體系．現在已經用在零四零三． |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
16555.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
16570.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
行政院的災害重建方案裡頭都經由這個法律的授權所以你們才很周全地提出我們可以做什麼那我也看了你們的內容其實很多更是優於災害防救法的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
16572.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
16601.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這是不容抹滅的所以回到實質跟法律的程序我都做出了一些分享跟論述那我們可以回來看有哪些選區關心的立委認為說災害協助救災的部分還沒有做到的地方那好 立法院能夠督促行政院繼續把它做好但他不是透過一個災害發生了一百天之後再回頭來立一個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
16603.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
16621.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這個東西我覺得我們的目標都是讓救災做到更好但是這個立法的必要性我覺得大有傷絕謝謝吳思堯委員的發言接下來我們請柯總召你不講兩句我都覺得怪怪的因為思堯講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
16622.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
16648.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那現在已經都是用三項法了而且二零二都已經在立了那九二一的時候有特別小議是沒有錯啦那默克爾以後大概沒有了那我們今天要談的就是說實際上就是說我們這些副總召我們都很關心你也應該對於選舉多爭取大家都願意幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
16649.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
16669.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
因為我們差一點在什麼地方大家來對清楚啦其實講坦白政府所能夠用的錢都下去了你本來寫一百五嘛那現在看政府弄到二百五你就二百五事實上政府現在可能快到三百了所以這個不是就是說但K點都會走給你都沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
16671.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
16686.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
但是呢 這裏面你要堅持用條例的話 這體育上也有問題啦第二個呢 你的條例裏面所要的東西 是不是有些部份可能相當於刑事部份談好 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
16688.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
16702.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這裏面真點大概就是說防止全部倒 我要全部改新的給他這個部分可能在所有過去我們所發生的災害防救那個災害所沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
16703.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
16725.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
造成以後建商隨便蓋一蓋,反正倒了都不會賠啊。這個東西,而且我們所謂災防舊,舊的所思舊己不是法,這個觀念要清楚。不管過去台南發生的時候,很多善款,我相信那邊也有很多善款進來,如果一起統合來應用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
16728.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
16755.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
副總召的意思應該是 現在的爭點應該只有在這個地方吧還有什麼爭點我們大家講清楚 才能夠走得下去錢已經超過二百五了這個東西就是政府能夠幫 一定會幫但是在體力上能夠做得到的部分來談 才有交集最後只剩下這一點而已吧好 謝謝柯建民總召 接下來請副困境總召再一次發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
16756.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
16781.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我要特別謝謝大家都很關心但是要務實才能解決災民的問題今天有沒有條例條例當然可以不要你有確實的拯救災民有確實有幫助到災民那我們當然不會在這裡還要推什麼條例今天就是確實沒有幫到災民力道也不夠現在問題就很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
16786.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
16815.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
所以我們才要推這個條例關鍵就在這裡 而且我要特別強調剛剛為什麼交通部講到六月以後就停住了到六月主要產業才24%的住房 以前是100%然後接著下來我們到現在為止這份待會會發給大家一起看 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
16818.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
16847.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
總共蘇花公路、台九線、台八線從六月二十號到七月初斷路一、二、三、四、五、六六次斷路都是全國性的新聞六次又攤方都是攤方六次再加上兩次鐵路又出軌又加上鐵路 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
16848.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
16870.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
因為土石流又停止 這些東西造成 包括鐵路出軌造成現在沒有人敢來了 又往下掉 連鐵路都會出軌不管過程 天災有造成 然後人禍也有結果把鐵路出軌 還好我這邊講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
16874.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
16902.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
又出軌了 差一點像2021.04.02一樣那個出軌還好是這個司機命大他遠遠就看到就趕快踩了趕快踩煞車不然的話到那個地方撞上土石流又出去撞到隧道又不曉得要幾十個人走掉所以當然那個有很多鐵路局也出了鐵路局內部管理是一塌糊塗 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
16904.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
16931.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那個事情已經發生了一二十分鐘 監看都看到了 但沒有人通報接著下來還有六次的那個差不多大概七八公尺寬的石頭掉下來還擊中火車所以現在真的是地方根本沒有辦法生存了但是振興做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
16933.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
16955.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
從六月一號就開始一房一千塊一個人來一房一千塊只有一次而已你住第二天就沒有所以現在完全杯水車薪我們剛剛特別強調現在是兩百八十五還是三百億甚至我認為可能五百億都做不起來因為現在太魯閣目前內政部評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
16958.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
16983.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
行政院評估七年都沒有辦法修好七年都沒有辦法修好現在只是暫定明年底局部開放暫定明年底是局部因為他的民粹到沒有全部做好大家真的是拿命在拼又台八線又下來那個石頭都是七八米寬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
16985.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
17014.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以在這種情況之下地方人他們都是中華民國國民我們要面對這個問題那再回到剛剛我們現在先講產業現在是這個樣子因為產業也影響到住民這個系統性風暴發生的時候那個狀況是沒有辦法回復的那接著下來就是五十八點是一些用在全國的災民 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
17017.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
17043.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
就說現在政府不是不是像柯總召講這樣柯總召跑那裡去了柯總召跑那裡去了他都說啊不是土豆啊政府就要去給你全世界都不是啊你台南圍觀也是也是百分之百蓋回去啊對不對對啊那上款可以啊你衛福部的上款撥過來嘛對不對衛福部的上款 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
17044.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
17072.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
過去的 過去 包括2018年0206 衛福部的善款也是全部撥到地方政府來處理啊這次他都沒有撥啊等一下對一下沒有關係啊 你問一下衛福部有沒有撥過來嘛這個東西過去 中央跟地方一起去找善源我打個岔 衛福部次長、理事長請準備報告請繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
17076.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
17103.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
過去就全部撥回來地方就把它重建那現在呢高總召一直在講的這個事情我要特別強調一下現在啦現在現在行政院的這個方案裡面他有撥款行政院他公務預算有撥他是怎麼撥就是詹一鳴啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
17105.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
17134.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
因為現在這些債民幾乎沒有人家的房子是沒有貸款的現在這個房子完全沒有了不在了貸款都還在他還要付利息還要怎麼處理現在行政院現在的做法是一戶一坪十二萬三十坪上限然後十二萬就得房子沒有了三百六十萬給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
17135.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
17162.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
然後你看著辦所以說現在這個問題是一直在加劇的越來越嚴重所以我還有那個我們現在就是說沒有關係你要撥你可以多撥一點錢解決災民的問題中央我們今天就是說如果如果他們行政院由我們這個條例做他們的後盾他們就可以比較方便也比較能夠確實的能夠照顧到災民 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
17166.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
17190.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
因為這些是直接救助災民所以我們今天條例就是補政府的強度不足政府不是說沒有這個科目來進行但是他強度不夠所以我們通過條例讓他有這個職責上的權力去進行這個災民的救助就是這樣謝謝副總召社福部請報告完畢科介銘總召你稍等報告數字請等一下 衛福部請 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
17195.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
17214.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
主席以及各位委員大家好衛福部這邊做一個報告我們本部所轄的這一個政財基金會0403的花蓮政災募款專案我們以總計已經募得新台幣16億4412萬元整那麼我們用餘的用途主要是災害援助 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
17215.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
17239.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
緊急醫療、修容安置、復原、重建四大面向那麼我要強調一點就是說我們到一一三年六月底我們已經預撥給受災的縣市政府我們已經預撥了內政部以及原民會申請的贈助款項總共有十六億六千八百餘億餘元已經超過這次募款的這個所得以上衛福部報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
17240.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
17240.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
17265.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
17292.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
政府花了超過二百五,你這個也是二百五但是我是覺得很奇怪,你是說一直在comment說政府完全沒有幫他忙到底是什麼原因,錢跑到哪裡,不可能蒸發掉嘛,政府的錢都下去了嘛那第一個就是說我不是說都沒有幫助,是力道不夠你應該第一句話就講說我把它結起來嘛我剛剛講力道不夠力道不夠也沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
17299.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
17319.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
發生地震以後,我想以花園縣政府的能量,要去面對這個問題,這個整個地震出來了,一定是能力不足,所有全部從中央下去,我相信吳京樂署長應該說明得很清楚,這個中央團隊不可能各部位都下去,這個你不可以否認啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
17321.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
17337.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這裏面各部會寫得很細真的都發下去了那到底為什麼你還覺得不夠到位那是你現在講的一個重點你要弄一個條例來當後盾政府本來就有方案都可以做一定做下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
17338.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
17366.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
你要用條例來當後盾你要用條例來當後盾的話那條例都還沒通過我們早就全部做下去啦不需要用條例來當後盾所以你所要用的條例當後盾就是說不可以說你叫你用條例去寫叫政府硬要幹啊政府也不敢這樣做比如說你看黃池潛島你現在全部給平給我沒有人這樣子啊不是所以說我們現在要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
17368.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
17371.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這不是說不能談 可以談這力道可以到哪裡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
17373.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
17399.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
你那幾個問題要比較計較來談,否則這樣會散發出來,然後又跟一樣對阿你講不好,我坦白跟你講,吳世耀委員剛才說他當助理的時候,那時候你寫過嗎?兩千年的時候,新南京議務次長馬思也是我的助理他幫我寫一個非常完整的災安法,說我們在辦公室做災安法兩次都有提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
17401.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
17428.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這樣好不好各位委員同仁我想那個因為我們今天還有好多法律案那這個案子我們休息一下大家開始討論討論之後我要再宣布我們今天稍微協商的結論我們先休息三分鐘大家討論一下因為現在雙方意見完全不一致那村城委員有沒有寶貴的意見臺灣民眾黨還沒有發言不發言好我們休息三到五分鐘有什麼意見也可以跟行政部門請教好不好謝謝五分鐘之後我們來宣讀協商結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
17591.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
17615.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部也謝謝各位列席的閣員跟官員大家非常的辛苦再次感謝那我來宣告一下我們現在黨團幹部對於本案0403政災重建條例各黨團顯然無法達成共識我們就送院會處理沒有沒有沒有 院長我可以再發言一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
17617.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
17631.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
如果說要講院長現在才是就要送院會處理的意思是說0403由傅坤祺委員所提的政災重建條例好對不起國民黨團好國民黨團版OK國民黨團版0403的災後重建條例它是進覆二讀的委員會沒有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
17641.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
17641.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
17661.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
17680.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
一個進付二讀的條例他要用國庫現在是兩百八十五億剛剛副委員說可能五百億也都不夠如果就我都不要講內容我就說這個程序院長你想看看一個要國庫支出三、五百億的條例一個條文都沒有run過 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
17683.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
17699.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
好 不管 不管是但是您剛剛您這裡也說您會在行政院兩百八十五億的規模裡面好 那我們就二八五嘛好 我們就說院長您看看在您手上五十分鐘的時間對於這個條例我們剛剛是在大體討論喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
17701.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
17719.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
然後沒有進入實質然後您的裁示那就是可能在爭議上就是可能爭點蠻多的然後就進送院會來處理然後就用表決去處理說一個重建條例然後討論五十分鐘進付二讀這樣不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
17720.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
17749.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這樣真的不好那如果要實質我們也是可以討論一下條文啊合理不合理是要經過檢視啊好 謝謝吳世耀委也謝謝當然柯總召讓我先講一下但是我要跟各位黨團幹部特別報告一下因為我們現在下面還有很多案子包括工糧收購包括刑事訴訟法包括科技偵查法包括刑事訴訟法各所有相關法案的協商還有一個辦法當然我們可以把它放在後面我們先討論其他的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
17749.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
17776.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那在最後快節奏我們再來回到這個案也是一個方式但是我們如果一直卡在這裡逐條下去我們後面所有的法律案顯然今天時間是不夠的那我要特別呼籲大家一下好請柯總召你現在這樣講還比較有道理啊剛才六四說好那就再去表決因為剛才已經把整頂整理出來嘛同樣花285政府花300億啊你一直說做得不好不夠到底哪一個地方有差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
17778.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
17786.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
政府的所有的邏輯很清楚,各部位都下去嘛,所以應該針對你的針點在哪裡,那幾個出來,針對那個來協商就夠了,這才能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
17793.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
17820.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我沒有預設立場我完全尊重各黨團只是我是希望這個案之後還有很多法律案如果我們卡在這裡的話其他法案就全面沒有辦法討論了我只是建議至於你們決定怎麼樣我完全尊重請傅坤祺總召發言我要特別強調一下台南的重建所有的老百姓地震後統統重建完成災民 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
17823.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
17844.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
兩百八十五條公共建設都在裡面我要把它拉回來我們這個案子就是99.21而且都是政府匡列在兩個項目一個項目叫做我再念一次他們聽不懂我再念一次現在這個匡列現在這個條例就是99.21沒有什麼五百億、三百億再強調一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
17853.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
17864.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
針對中央已核定的民防災損安置及重建五十八點四億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
17866.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
17886.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
及產業振興四十點八億元這是中央匡列的兩大項目總共九十九點二億我剛唸過一次我再唸一次所以這個條例現在就是九十九點二億它主要的目的就是讓這些烏島的災民 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
17889.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
17911.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
能夠順利的把它重建完成那振興的部分40.81振興現在完全沒有感覺到有怎麼樣的力道所以這個部分應該是跟整個受災的政府應該行政院要具體的作為跟地方要去談要怎麼樣這個產業才能夠帶動起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
17915.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
17940.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
這都是跟地方去談那個四十點八一沒有要他們一定要怎麼做但是希望他們跟地方政府合起來去把產業振興起來這是行政院的項目就是振興產業那你到底做到振興沒有數字已經在講話了嘛就是沒有嘛那沒有要怎麼做是不是要跟地方政府有一個充分的一個溝通來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
17942.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
17963.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
另外就是58.4億這個行政院匡列的給災民的部分要重建 災民重建的部分這個民宅災損的部分要重建現在其實我們的真點就只有這一項柯總召一句話 他就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
17968.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
17989.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
政府有在做只是他的力道不夠我再說一次不是這樣因為過去所以我特別你讓我一次講完好不好你讓我一次講完好不好因為你已經講到重點嘛講到重點所以你的重點這樣才對焦嘛你說你就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
17993.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
18015.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
政府裡面有因為五十八點四嘛還是四點八嘛四點八是產業振興嘛另外是民防災害損失的統計嘛齁這兩條加起來總共九十九點二億嘛這兩個加起來總共九十九點二億你全部不要做其他你只要來儲得起起出來這樣而已嘛就這個意思嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
18018.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
18023.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
五十八點四億五十八點四億是烏島的部分四十點八億是產業振興他錢沒有花完嘛他現在正在進行但是是不是這樣我要特別強調齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
18047.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
18052.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
他們兩樣都在做 但是力量不足不足的話 他錢都沒有用完 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
18054.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
18065.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
現在就是說我們希望 也不是新的啦 這樣一定是不是285了啊接下來 沒關係 大家來我來釐清一下啦我來釐清一下啦 副委員 現在是大家都要跟他互相照顧嘛就是說法連那個大家互相照顧的合理啦 現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
18084.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
18101.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
兩百 假設三百好啦 我其實政府現在把它落三八下去啦你現在意思就是說 不到位嘛 我一直聽到你講不到位那不到位 也可以 也可以拿出來講第一個就是說 我要回復到我還沒有地震以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
18102.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
18102.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
國民黨黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
18118.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
18131.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
你想要它政府再花什麼下去 這第一個那這個就是產業振興的問題啦那第二個我覺得你好 我好像又聽出你又欲言又止又不好 意思明講 你就不用說你就說 我的處終到 到阿嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
18136.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
18147.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
房子倒啦 有可能是新的房子倒啦 也有可能舊的房子倒啦你就講出你的爭議 這樣才有辦法來聚焦啦你的意思是說 我就不管你什麼新廚倒 還是你古廚倒你政府你來企劃我 這也可以別人說 再來講你也可以講出來說 你給我企劃好 我不管來的古廚大家再來講說 那可能就是我政府該賠你多少錢 才算到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
18164.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
18166.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
其實我條文都看過了其實我就舉兩個條文應當是這個條例的關鍵條文就是第七條跟第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
18192.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
18216.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
剛剛副總長您說現在在國民黨版的這個條例裡頭有明顯的預算額度是99億2000萬沒錯這是唯一出現在這裡面有具體數字的但是您的第七條第一項的第一款您的說法是對不起是國民黨版的說法是各機關應於總預算範圍內且不低於新台幣99億2000萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
18220.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
18225.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
點點點點去做哪些事這個是地板 不是天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
18227.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
18247.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
所以說這個條例本身﹐包括後面有很多是﹐可能是貸款的支出﹐可能是保險的支出﹐可能是就學的支出﹐可能是醫療的協助的支出﹐還有很大一項就是對於重建的這個支出﹐是沒有列在這裡面﹐它是額外要花的﹐是在你其他的條文裡面﹐沒有算在這個裡面﹐您的這個是不低於99.2﹐換言之﹐它確實會到300億﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
18252.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
18270.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
或者有可能到﹐可能您剛剛說的﹐可能更高的金額﹐達到您覺得要到位的那個標準﹐所以舊條文﹐我是看這個國民黨版的條文﹐具體說是不低於新台幣九十九億兩千萬元﹐然後本與哪些預算項目來支出﹐這是第一個關鍵條文﹐第二個關鍵條文在第九條﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
18273.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
18301 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
剛剛瑞雄委員在說那副總商你就明講嘛要做什麼你覺得要為災區的人民再多爭取什麼就明講嘛其實條文就寫在這裡啊瑞雄你可以看一下條文就寫得很清楚第九條說住戶房屋因地震毀損不堪居住經認定為黃單紅單之房屋其拆除去化整建重建之費用由中央政府全額負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
18303.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
18313.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
這個沒有記在剛剛99.2億裡面這就是一個關鍵條文是extra而且是從以前到現在沒有發生過台灣任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
18314.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
18332.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
的災害．然後要求政府．不管是紅單、黃單．的拆除、去化、整建、重建．由中央政府全額負擔．不管它是新的房子、是舊的房子．或者是不是過去就有一些建商．是不良建商蓋的不好的房子． |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
18334.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
18360.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
這條才是一個無限膨脹的預算可能的來源我們就必須看它合理或不合理我們回到救災的精神重建的費用的支出對於災民的補貼應當是用於符合公共利益有一個合理的範圍而不是完全去填補政災產生的人民的每一項的財產損失沒有辦法這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
18364.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
18375.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
所以說現在的災害防救法也不會有任何一個條文說只要哪個地震發生了然後政府而且是中央政府喔中央政府全額買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
18377.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
18401.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個下去大家想看看．政府有可能．或者是未來某一個裁縫來了．家裡有因為怎麼樣漏水的．全部由中央政府全額來替你整建．這幾乎做不到了．所以我說第七條跟第九條．是關鍵的條文．而它就相當的．不合理．所以我是真的很具體的建議． |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
18402.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
18423.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
國民黨團還有副委員認為花蓮在哪些重建的過程政府做得不夠到位哪些災民的需求還沒有被政府關照到其實我們立法委員可以行使辭選的方式我們也可以召開你要在院會用特別的專案報告都可以或是委員會的專案報告也安排過 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
18424.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
18444.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
都可以一個災害經過一百天的重建．有哪些確實沒有做好．或者是應當做現階段的檢討．先來看現在重建一百天的檢視．這是立法委員的職權．可以透過排案的方式．各級部會來做報告．哪些真的配合不夠的．就來處理．哪些預算還不足的．大家一起來爭取． |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
18446.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
18473.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那更何況其實這一次中央政府是快﹐很快﹐很快速的進到災區﹐而且行政院成立了花蓮重建專案辦公室這是中央直接在那裡設一個辦公室就進來協助所有災區的需要我相信跟花蓮縣政府也一定有很多很綿密的合作所以如果說﹐我還是再次在說 院長我現在發言到現在是8點53分 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
18476.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
18488.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
一個條例 地板的金額是99.2億起跳我們只討論了一個小時 它是近乎二讀就要用會處理 我是覺得要深思 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
18489.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
18515.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那現在顯然各政黨團都沒有辦法答案那個院長我再做一次完整的報告因為我每次講很奇怪我都要重複重複重複我再講一次我提醒一下我這次副坤崎總召這麼多年從來沒看他戴太陽眼鏡他非常重視這個案子我覺得一定要把這個事情扭曲到這樣那我就特別強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
18517.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
18545.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
九十九年二一我們可以把它寫成上限沒有關係不要把這個東西故意無限放大這第一個上限是這個沒有關係我要特別講第九條你們要選縣市長的要聽好地方總預算的百分之一叫做災害準備金 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
18546.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
18559.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
中央的行政院也是有百分之一的總預算的災害準備金地方發生天然災害的時候百分之一的錢用完之後就由中央來支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
18563.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
18588.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
因為沒有當過縣長 不知道我要講給他們聽不是說這個東西很嚴重事實上這個拆除、去化、這些東西運輸等等剛剛他們講那個都是在百分之一用完之後就是中央這邊來指引我先告訴你是這樣 再過來這個針點只有一樣就是剛剛柯總召講的說政府要不要完全蓋給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
18590.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
18616.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我覺得我剛剛從剛剛到現在都說可以談嘛但是現在的救濟的力道就是不夠嘛對不對你現在說十二萬一坪然後一戶人最多三十坪他連貸款都沒有辦法還所以說這個部分可以救助到 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
18617.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
18643.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
大家講嘛 不要百分之百 沒有問題啊條例就是要談嘛 對不對但是大家同理心來看這個事情嘛同理心嘛過去衛福部只要出來成立專案專案的錢就是撥到地方政府去嘛因為一線 因為大家捐錢就是要救災民嘛不是救政府的差額嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
18645.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
18652.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
衛務部這一次是把專案的錢撥到其他的部會去了其他部會本來就有錢嘛編預算就有啦 它不是編285嗎它把這些錢弄到各部會去了我覺得啊 因為過去的實際操作就是這個地方我們2018年0202大地震也是撥到地方政府來 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
18672.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
18692.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
為何不拿呢?他就不知道地方所以那個錢就是來幫災民我們知道四棟大樓全部都蓋好了就是這樣那這一次如果說你們覺得十二萬一坪十二萬一坪然後只能三十坪這些人連他的房貸都沒有辦法繳因為他整個貸款 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
18697.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
18708.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
現在是政府把他擋住說他他現在一年內可以不用去還這個本金本來他現在加債務都破產嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
18713.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
18733.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
不是啊 你說 對不對 建民啊 也說嘛 吳斯拉有說不可以嘛 他們兩位都說不可以 所以我說可以談嘛那你百分比願意到多少嘛 我就硬說這樣嘛 對不對寫是這樣嘛 但是不是要協商嗎 大家就來協商嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
18735.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
18754.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
因為我們現在為了草原協商有效,我不得不處置好不好不是不得不處置快要接近了嘛談不來再講嘛你的意思說講明了嘛,就是前倒要前賠嘛,紅黨紅黨前賠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
18757.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
18779.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那可以不可以這樣 讓新聞部門來解釋 國際可以不可以這樣 沒有人這樣搞過嘛然後你這個預算呢 預算框在99.299.2吧有講清楚是 框在這裡面嘛 五十八億五十八億你看第七條再修正版本嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
18780.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
18792.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
不低於九十九點二嗎?對啊就框九十九點二嘛,你剛才一開始這樣講嘛我們就講框十,框十嘛沒關係,再來嘛再來我這樣看,你變成不低於嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
18798.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
18804.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
當然不是要講說會有膨脹,你說沒有沒有就是這樣,拉回來就是這樣嘛,我們說的明嘛,我們知道他是出於事情,排除預算法嘛,還有有用的問題嘛,是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
18817.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
18820.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
行政文法同意的話就比較不會違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
18842.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
18870.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那現在就是說 如果說民進黨又認為說這是違憲 我也沒有話講沒有啦 阿你不要 阿你不要主流阿你不要提出整個命運阿 院長 院長不要這樣 國土署說什麼啊我就是要找處長 院長可以一直在講話兩位總召 讓我先宣布一下 讓國土署署長我知道 我把他這樣講好所以 阿現在開啟要怎麼辦這不是有酒店 那是新的集呢 阿我們在產業發展開啟了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
18872.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
18885.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
跟各位列席委員報告一下我們現在報告的是內政部國土署吳署長歡迎您請剛剛幾位委員所問的那個我大概把那個之前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
18886.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
18904.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
台南0206也講一下我當時是負責重建的獨發局長那第一個在台南0206所收的42億善款第一個我們沒有全部用完因為當時每一項都要經過政宅委員會審核那個補助項目那所以當時的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
18905.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
18932.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我們針對這一個所有的大樓重建大概都有訂一個上限也就是說我們一樣是以當時的這個地方的重建價格徵收的重建價格按照樓層數它有不同的價格去訂那也一樣訂上限因為我們當地也有人一人擁有多戶那所以就會用總坪數作為上限以免買越多戶的人領越多那這樣其實對這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
18935.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
18962.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
以正宅的公益性來講 其實比較不吻合那所以才會訂上限那這一次在花蓮的這一個部分呢我們也援引同樣的一個做法一樣以花蓮地區所在的這個徵收的這個重建價格來做一個上限值的一個規定那也一樣訂定一個上限的一個評數這也是參考這些大樓它的一個平均的一個評數做這樣的一個概念的一個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
18963.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
18987.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
所以這第一個標準都一致那因為第二個就是說因為這裡面所用的很多都是政宅的善款也就是民間捐助的我們必須要考慮社會的觀感跟社會的公義性那所以在這個部分的確在我們都必須要訂定一個上限而不是全部去談這樣的一個部分所以我先把過去的經驗是做這樣的一個報告第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
18988.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
19016.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
對於這個受災戶的這個貸款這部分我們之前大概也有做一個調查那也大概初步了解他們的確還有舊貸跟新貸那因為過去在九二一跟莫納克來講他的做法並不一致那所以這個部分當然是最後在整合的時候如果最後還有舊貸新貸的話那我們後面會重建的時候會再去委員會再提相關的一個整合辦法到時候或許需要金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
19017.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
19044.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
的一個協助在銀行端去做一個做一個整合的協助我想這是第二個第三個就是所謂的重建的過程當中其實因為在花蓮地區這裡有都援引的都更跟危老那都更它是有容積獎勵的也就是說它未來的興建它可以平速可以變多這個就是變多的時候以受災戶來講它這是未來可以出售的也就是經過出售以後它所得獲得的一些金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
19045.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
19045.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
19063.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
19089.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
而外的一個收入來降低他的負擔我這樣就要讓報告 吳署長現在可能副總召跟各位有一個心中的疑點就是說我們0206的上限是多少現在花蓮0403的上限是多少這一點可能麻煩 其實跟委員報告上限值都一樣對就是 12萬30坪因為台南的平均坪數比較大我們當然是用他的平均坪數 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
19089.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
19093.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以是用平均評數去算 但是台南的上限也是只有四百二十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
19094.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
19098.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
現在我們非常感謝國土署的吳署長的報告 讓我們心中很多疑問可以解開來那副總召 如果各位黨團幹部沒有意見的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
19121.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
19149.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
我想 你可以思考一下我想我們那個院長我再報告一次所以我們要特別強調說啊2016年跟2024年我就舉個例2016年那個時候的公共委員會公告的單價成本大概在11萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
19151.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
19173.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
而且十一萬是已經很好的價格那個時候十萬、八萬、九萬、十萬都可以標的出去現在沒有十八萬以上根本標不出去我就舉花蓮花蓮現在的公共住宅標出去一坪就將近要十九萬才標出去營造費用而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
19175.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
19191.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
銀罩費用 什麼裝潢都沒有 就銀罩費用所以 現在用這個十二萬跟他們當時的十二萬是當時因為公務人員為財 只一萬他們十二萬那個當然是很好的價格現在 現在 今夕何夕啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
19195.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
19215.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
你看公共工程委會2016年什麼現在是多少錢現在的公共住宅現在的這個社會住宅由內政部自己招標的標出具一坪是多少錢新建的費用所以把2016年的標準拿來2024年物價漲了翻了多少倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
19216.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
19222.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
所以我對所以可以來談我們就可以來談你拿2016來講我們現在所以我現在是這樣子我覺得說沒有關係他12萬現在大概19萬差了7萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
19233.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
19261.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
差了七萬所以十九萬嘛因為以補助到十九萬我們直接把這中間明確政府全額政府全額這個把它刪掉沒有關係就一坪補助你十九萬以那個工程委員會那個內政部社會助理來的絕標價格甚至啊各種招 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
19263.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
19292.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
打八五折也沒關係 打九折打八折也都沒關係這大家公共情操這樣就好都沒白啊 我就奉 奉上嘛就有保障嘛 它現在本身就有保障嘛那這樣就好 怎麼說嘛 沒關係啊已經差不多啦 不然我們現在已經差不多了已經差不多 好不好你不需要注意聽一下 差不多要差不多你要賺掉以後再重啟獨大格 何去困難呢那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
19293.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
19300.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我們現在休息五分鐘 請各位黨員大家碰一下 好不好 謝謝五分鐘之後我要開始處理了 好 謝謝辛苦各位官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
19312.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
19319.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二、研二 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
19340.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
19350.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
這我懂這陳老闆今天沒有用你不立法那這當然就受不了那你要立法那這先談這個老闆今天沒有用你為什麼還沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
19371.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
19371.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
19394.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
19395.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
現在在喝行嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
19420.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
19421.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
民進黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
19438.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
19439.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
國民黨黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
19467.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
19468.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
國民黨黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
19495.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
19502.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
三、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、研三、二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
20332.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
20341.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
不敢當向各位黨團幹部報告我們現在內政部國土署的署本部正在草擬一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
20342.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
20364.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
可以雙方接受的一個方案他們現在正在草泥文字所以我們現在就繼續往下我們先審查下一案公糧收購案的我們的協商回個頭什麼時候國土署交出來之後那個資料交出來之後我們大家互相討論我們再回來我們這個案子我們再回到4030 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
20367.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
20376.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
政災重建條例好不好好我們現在進入公糧搜管我們進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
20398.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
20398.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
國民黨黨團提議． 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
20436.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
20449.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部讓我們一起來現在跟大家報告我們列席的閣員以及各位官員我們首先歡迎農業部陳部長歡迎您在農糧署的陳祖密歡迎您農糧署的陳組長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
20455.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
20479.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
農糧署的張課長歡迎您請坐謝謝向各位黨團幹部報告我們現在正式來協商公糧收購案我們開始協商的時候要向大家報告本院國民黨團提案建議建請院會作成決議農業部應調整公糧收購價格由每公斤二十六元調整至每公斤三十四元 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
20480.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
20488.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
提高農民基本利潤請供決案以及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提修正動議建請院會作成決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
20490.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
20510.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
要求農業部將公糧收購價格至每公斤二十六元調升至三十一元（並加速提升整體雜糧種植面積之計畫請公決案（二、本案及修正動議一百三年五月十四日第一會及第三次院會決議（並同交付黨團協商（並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商（ |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
20514.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
20532.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
三、本案令今一百一三年六月二十七日由楊瓊英召委召集黨團協商協商結論本案及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提修正動議一案均保留、送交、院會處理四、本次協商會議針對國民黨團提案及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提修正動議進行協商現在先請提案的國民黨黨團請作報告張家俊委員請報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
20545.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
20568.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
謝謝院長三位總召還有各位委員就是有關於這個公糧收購價格的提高為什麼我們會提案呢因為農民真的需要而且是最基層最辛苦他沒有辦法行銷然後沒有辦法做新的作物的這些農民呢是最最需要的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
20569.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
20577.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
而且呢 這個公糧收購價格已經13年都沒有調整過了13年前就是本席提案 然後來漲的那13年前漲了3塊錢可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
20584.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
20592.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
十三年間基本工資從17880漲到27470工資漲幅高達53.64%央苗由每盤28元上漲到40元上漲了43%物價指數上漲超過15%其他包括農藥包括肥料上漲近25%農民的耕作成本是不斷的增加那 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
20614.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
20638.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
當然我剛剛看到了這個農業部給的就是陳部長給出的這個建議我必須講幾句話一、就是對於提高公糧收購價格的影響陳俊濟部長的說法他也是自相矛盾他過去還沒有擔任主委的時候他說過公糧收購價格與契作價格是連動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
20641.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
20667.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
公糧價格提高．契作價格也會提高．這就代表著會照顧到農民民營糧商收購的價格．自然必須要提高那以他這樣子的說法．最後受益的．就是最基層的農民但現在他當了主委之後．他卻告訴我們說提高公糧收購價格．會造成糧價的崩跌．反而會提高這個． |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
20670.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
20696.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
所以反而去反對提高收購的價格這到底是為了保護農民還是在保護糧商這讓我不禁的質疑尤其呢我知道說包括那個莊惠琼委員她在屏東那邊也種很多稻米啊我相信她也很理解說農民的辛苦那第二點呢公糧收購價格它不是毫無限制的收購 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
20696.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
20702.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
因為公糧收購分為計劃收購、輔導收購、餘糧收購每一種收購方式都有其限制的量與價格計劃收購價格最高只佔總收購量的三分之一輔導價格減三塊餘糧收購又再減二至三元所以這不是一個毫無節制的收購 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
20723.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
20745.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
更重要的是因為是有計劃性的更不可能也不應該發生增加百億元經費的這個狀況如果以去年收購二十九點一萬噸的量來算的話提高八塊增加的多少錢大家知道嗎二十三億 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
20748.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
20752.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
等於跟農業部講的百億是差了將近五倍啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
20753.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
20782.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
就算是2012年那一年收購量比較高那一年是45.6萬噸如果以那一年來算是增加36億那這些錢其實是為了照顧最基層的農民因為會繳交供糧的農民他們都是沒有能力轉型的弱勢農民部長要鼓勵去企作、去做品牌、經營市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
20783.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
20807.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
這些都是好事本席也非常的贊成但是這些最基層的農民他只仰賴保駕收購當作是他生活的底線我們今天就是在這裡為這些最辛苦的農民發聲那第三點呢對於農業部剛剛提出的這一本裡面講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
20809.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
20832.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
最後一頁就是最後幾頁在講什麼一級二轉三加三這名字很好聽取得還押韻但是我不是不贊成啊我們也贊成啊但是一級鼓勵棄做二轉鼓勵轉做和做這些都不是新的政策這都行之有年多久了你們自己說 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
20834.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
20846.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
這些難道是新的嗎這是長期以來農業部就在推行的目標你不能加上一個新的包裝新的名詞就告訴我們說你要用這個取代公糧收購價格提高這就是舊新的瓶子裝舊的酒 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
20853.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
20868.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
農業部的功能難道只是在做換新的形容詞嗎換新的形容詞來包裝說你們現在在做的事情而沒有提出真正能夠取代公糧收購價格提高的辦法說實在我 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
20869.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
20890.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
也曾經跟陳部長說過說假設你真的有辦法可以取代公糧收購那本席也一定會支持因為我也希望我的農民我的這些鄉親不是生活在最底線你知道嗎我也希望他們可以賺錢啊他們務農如果可以賺大錢的話為什麼他們必須要仰賴這個公糧收購價格的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
20898.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
20903.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
我們為什麼推行你們說的這個什麼一極二轉、三加三這麼多年還是有很多慣性的農民種水稻有一個原因是因為我們現在務農的年齡平均是65歲這些年老弱勢的農民他們幾十年來可能就只有種植水稻的經驗與技術你要他們轉形同逼他們老年轉業他要會種其他的呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
20930.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
20950.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
你若要輔導他種其他的 你誘因也要夠啊所以提高公糧收購價格的補助 是在照顧這樣的老農民另外一個原因是 獎勵轉作的誘因不足如果這個階段要鼓勵轉作 應該是提高轉作補助而不是去壓下 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
20951.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
20964.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
十三年來未調整的公糧收購價格﹐因為在動漲公糧價格收購的同時﹐也可能壓低了糧商收購的價格﹐這對整體的農民是不利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
20971.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
20991.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
院長不好意思 我暫時講到這裡 讓莊瑞雄委員先講莊瑞雄委員是要不要請提案的另外一個政黨先講完我先講一下莊瑞雄委員請發言這個張委員這個講法我是感同身受 因為我來自農業縣可是我必須要講出來就是說 這個如果真的可以這樣提的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
20992.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
21018.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
我經歷過七個行政院長 我早就提了 因為我也擔心這個你像譬如說 你公糧 我們藻礁公糧其實也不是百分之百百分之百藻礁公糧才要三十趴嘛 三十趴我現在酒爐鄉啊 我們碰到那個檸檬價格非常低啊我跟部長很熟啊 我也不敢跟他說 阿婆你種得那麼差 我也不敢這樣說 我也不敢這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
21020.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
21038.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以我就一直在想說你這個提高價格的話確實也會有你這個才佔百分之三十趴提高收購價格你對整個稻米的種植我很擔心會有加重它的一個誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
21040.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
21048.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這個也必須要去考慮到那就變成說你對民糧的部分你現在講的是公糧民糧那個價格會下跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
21054.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
21069.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
沒關係我們這個觀念我們可以來討論實際上真的你把公糧這樣拉高你那個民糧真的會下跌我再講一次這個如果真的可以通我每一年我都敢提啦我提一定對我農業縣我一定有加分然後我不提的我哪有那麼笨 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
21070.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
21083.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
我真的就是擔心 因為我真的農家子弟啊 問到的我都講啊我也不跟你講說水資源的問題 種水稻當然就是水資源啊本來就是農作 本來就是優先啊 我就不談這個會不會跟工業競爭的問題 我就不談這些了那你現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
21088.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
21108.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
產量確實也真的是過剩 產量過剩的話 補充單可以說你只要產量過剩差不多就多了那變成說 已經產量過剩了 我現在這個供糧的部分把它拉高那又像我剛提到的 那另外七十趴的民糧 它又下跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
21110.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
21123.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
所以我不敢提的原因在這裡 再來會造成什麼樣的 就是說你其他的那個砸糧的部分 你真的要政府現在的政策就希望砸糧嘛 給轉做去砸糧嘛 讓我們產量過剩啊我現在再拉高 砸糧我也不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
21128.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
21154.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
也會有這樣的一個問題然後最主要就是怎麼樣呢大家提到的就是說十幾年來什麼都波動了你看政府都沒有來多把它做一個提高政府要不要當最後面這一個莊家政府做得到當然也很好我是覺得也很好但是你像譬如說玉米的部分高粱的部分或者說大豆的部分因為我們自給率才一成 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
21155.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
21181.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那我現在全部都讀後水到因為我屏東我其他的州全部都有嘛那我為什麼不敢提我讀後這個我其他我造成台灣兩省的自主權你那個真的會被限縮這個我最擔心的就是你看幾年前那個國際價格一波動了以後我告訴你只是我們立法委員感受不到而已那個整個物價全部都會波動 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
21183.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
21210.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
所以我再講一次就是說這個我來自農業縣我也很想提可是我就是這樣把它權衡完以後不是因為民進黨在執政我不提不是啊不是啊國民黨執政的時候我也就開始當立委了我也不敢提啊是原因在這個地方所以我的意思說大家可以再思考一下請農業部你們也真的再講清楚好不好我不要再多提了沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
21213.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
21237.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我聽得懂啦 我知道你在說什麼我聽不懂莊委員我覺得你講這樣子不是完全沒有道理我是說意思是說十三年前就我提案的提高了三塊它也沒有造成說什麼你說的什麼崩跌你說的價格壓低它是曾經發生過而且農民都覺得很受益很高興我們在講的不是那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
21238.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
21252.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
幾乎我們兩個榮業先生可以對話而已我要講的就是說你那個提高三塊以後會造成怎麼樣有一個惡性循環每一年都是盛產每一年都一直過剩我可不可以再另外講一件事情就是說剛剛那個國土署的署長離開了他說我們這個都是功過於求結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
21259.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
21263.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
現在國土計劃法．要求我們為了糧食安全．要劃無限多的．這個農一、農二．那它都已經生產過剩了．我們為什麼還要劃這麼多的農地呢． |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
21273.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
21273.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
21295.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
21320.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那個針對有關於公糧收購價格的部分那這個主責的是我們的張喜凱委員那張委員很抱歉因為他其實很想參加這場協商但他晚上因為另外早就答應的事情所以沒有辦法趕過來那基本上面我們是支持這個公糧收購價格因為從2011年到現在已經是三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
21321.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
21336.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
中間這段時間的物價大幅的上漲﹐包括了人工肥料、農業資產因此為了要對於整體的農民﹐他們能夠提供一些比較好﹐一些基本生活的維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
21337.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
21358.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
因此我們考慮了包括了各項成本人工肥料還有物價指數所以我們提案的內容是並沒有像中國國民黨那麼多我們提案的是把公糧收購價格從每公斤26元目前的26元再調升5元因為過去是上一次調公糧價格是 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
21366.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
21394.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
是十三年前了吧?是二零一一年吧?對嘛,二零一一年是十三年那以上先前要說明,謝謝謝謝黃國昌總召的說明接下來請農業部陳部長請主席還有我們在座的各位委員大家好那我想首先還是感謝所有的委員對農業議題的一個關心然後也對農民的收益就是有提出非常高的關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
21396.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
21419.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我想大院的所有的委員不只是在座的委員跟我們農業部是一樣我們都共同的目標就是希望能夠確保我們農民的所得是提高的甚至於是確保的部分這個目標的一致之下那我們再開始去思考我們到底用什麼樣的策略方案或是手段或是措施能夠達成這樣的一個目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
21419.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
21441.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
那以國民黨團跟民眾黨團他們所提出來的就是要求我們農業部調高公糧收購價格到八塊或五塊這是一個方法這是一個方法那我們也提出了一個方法這兩個方法最大的不一樣就是公糧收購的一個方法直接提高的方法它是非常直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
21442.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
21466.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
然後也許農民馬上有感但是它是一個強心針那以過去的例子每次提高供糧的當年絕對有效可是因為供糧的價格提高了那個誘因會讓更多的農民本來種別的作物的就會去種所以它的那個面積水稻面積就會慢慢的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
21468.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
21495.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那成長了以後他整個的稻穀的產量變多了那變多的時候因為公糧的收購還是有限的大部分還是民糧所以民糧的部分就會往下降對於稻農本身的收益並不是有利的那農業部所提出的方法是我們是調整整個農業的產業的結構來支撐農民的收益這兩個等一下我會去講然後各位是不是可以請翻開簡報的 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
21497.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
21505.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
第二頁這邊我簡單的說明齁如果提高了公糧那基本上因為公糧現在目前整個大股的收購 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
21506.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
21533.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
百分之三十是繳公糧﹑百分之七十是繳民糧的那我提高了這個公糧的收購只是在百分之三十的農民受益百分之七十的農民並沒有直接受益他依賴的就是民糧跟著提高才會受益但是民糧我剛才說的面積一提高的話他就不一定會跟著正成長這是第一個部分然後第二個部分請看第三頁這邊這個就是很明顯的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
21534.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
21554.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
在一百年的時候提高了公糧的價格以後﹐它的確有提高了﹐可是後續它就往下降了﹐往下降了﹐甚至到一百零九年的時候﹐那個土黃色的柱狀土就是公糧收購的量﹐就是當你價格越低的時候﹐它就會跑去繳公糧了﹐那反而是對產業結構不好﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
21556.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
21575.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
在一百年開始我們推動了一些政策可以讓產地的價格提高的時候它就不繳公糧了所以在這樣的一個因素之下各位請看第四頁這是我們最擔心的這是我想我們過去三、四個月來其實到產業去了解了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
21576.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
21604.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
現在產業鏈因為到處有它的產業鏈包括央苗包括資材包括肥料的部分甚至於整地的這些工資的部分很多人就在等著公糧價格的提高因為一提高的話他們的他們的整個的費用也會跟著提高因為公糧提高了那這個一提高的部分就會稀釋掉它的一個農民的一個因為公糧提高的一個一個收益就會被稀釋掉那第二個部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
21607.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
21634.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
生產成本的提高並不是只有水稻產業還有其他的產業那其他的產業他們過往因為成本的提高是他們想辦法去提升他們的生產效率來支撐這個產業那我們現在如果說提高了公糧帶動了整個的生產成本也會波及到其他的產業的時候那對其他產業來講他沒有辦法享受到公糧收購 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
21635.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
21662.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
但是他最獲得了這些整個整體產業的成本提高會讓他的整個的一個原來的那個收益也會更為向低所以這個部分就是我們目前在評估的整個的公糧的收購可能的負面影響因為我一開始講他是一個選項那到底是不是一個最好的選項我們根據這樣的一個分析其實他不是一個最好的選項所以換句話說 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
21663.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
21686.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
我們覺得所有的要確保農民的所得提高第一個一定要確保面積面積拉高產量過剩的時候永遠沒辦法去處理所以我們評估的結果從過去的評估結果是二十四萬公頃是一個很好的一個面積那在這個面積之下我們設計的一個叫做一級二轉三加三 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
21687.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
21709.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那所謂的一級的部分就是﹐剛才張家俊委員所提到的﹐沒有錯﹐很多老農﹐他是個體戶﹐他大概就是只能繳工糧﹐所以我們希望說﹐我們可以引導這些﹐因為老農他也不是親自去種﹐他是用代耕﹐打個電話﹐說實在﹐種水稻是打電話種水稻﹐因為有很好的代耕系統﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
21711.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
21727.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
就是我今天我有一甲地打個電話以後就去耕作了所以我們希望引導這些代耕業者能夠變成一個集團產區變成集團經營那過往的例子就是集團經營就是用U值的米 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
21728.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
21729.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
三、研 民進黨黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
21751.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
21753.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
第二百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
21766.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
21791.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
有一個部分非常重要我要跟主席跟各位委員報告的就是我們的高鐵沿線因為地層下降的關係我們一直希望說它不要種水稻而轉作旱作那轉作旱作的時候我們會發給節水獎勵節水獎勵的部分本來是三萬塊我們現在提高到五萬塊也增加到兩萬塊然後這個部分我想能夠讓它去做做它的一個旱作 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
21793.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
21822.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
二期作本身因為水稻農民會賺錢大概是一期作二期作他的收益會比較低那所以我們會鼓勵這些二期作不種稻那不種稻我會給他一些獎勵那這樣子的話他配合了其他的作物獎勵的時候那他就會有系統的能夠獲得更高的收益那最後三加三的部分就是我們用這樣的一個方案很負責任的我們一定會 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
21825.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
21850.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
讓整個稻穀的價格在三年之內一定會提高三塊錢提高三塊錢我們還有原來的這些獎勵都還在我們覺得說用這樣的一個方式是讓產業持續的進步而且讓農民也能夠跟著受益而不是用一個強心針直接提高這樣的一個供糧以上說明謝謝陳部長的說明接下來我們請張家俊委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
21853.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
21867.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
謝謝主席就是不可否認陳部長也是農業專家他也非常的認真但是呢有幾件事情他剛剛講的本席完全不可以認同就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
21869.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
21892.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
他說 帶動產業鏈成本上漲就是因為產業鏈成本已經上漲了我們才要提高公糧收購的價格你怎麼把它反過來說呢說提高公糧收購價格會帶動產業鏈成本上漲這是一個非常沒有邏輯的說法那另外 另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
21896.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
21909.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
另外本席也同意你剛剛講的你剛剛講說這些都是最辛苦最老的這些沒有辦法做其他作物的農民他在領取的 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
21910.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
21927.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
那至少他也就是很努力啊我想要講的就是說陳部長你既然有這麼有理想的話你覺得公糧收購價格不是一個健全的體制的話你為什麼不把它廢掉你有東西可以取代你把它廢掉啊但你也沒有東西可以取代然後你告訴我說高鐵沿線黃金廊道計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
21934.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
21948.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
高鐵沿線黃金廊道計劃跟公糧收購有什麼關係那個是這麼狹窄可能是高鐵沿線兩公里的你用這個來跟我講全部農民的事情你就是在騙這些沒有種田的人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
21958.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
21977.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
然後你還告訴我說我再算一次給你聽我再算假設我們以雲林縣為例我們農業的產值是八百五十四億人口二十二萬平均年收入三十八萬遠低於我們全國的平均收入八十幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
21981.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
21991.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
扣除成本﹐他們的年收入只有23萬等於每個人平均的月收入只有1.9萬我想要請教陳部長﹐假設你是一個這麼有作為﹐這麼有理想的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
21997.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
22006.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
要怎麼樣提高農民的收益 你告訴我 我們都會支持你你知道我們全台灣低收入戶的平均值是多少嗎一萬四千兩百三十塊 中低收入戶是兩萬一千七百四十五塊就告訴你說 以我們雲林縣為例 我們的農民都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
22021.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
22045.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
在低收入戶跟中低收入戶當中在取得生存你現在在告訴我那些高大上的東西完全不符合我們現在農民的需求公糧收購我再講一次公糧收購是在照顧沒有能力行銷轉型的老農民如果說種別的作物可以讓他們賺大錢誘因足夠讓他們願意去學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
22051.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
22062.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
那我也不反對啊所以我現在在講的是說這個可能沒種過田的大家請不要低估柯總召對菸農貢獻很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
22069.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
22090.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
就是我想要跟大家報告的是他們真的很辛苦你的強心劑就是在救這些老農你的強心劑就是在救這些30%繳交公糧的老農民所以我現在還是希望陳部長假設13年前可以調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
22091.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
22108.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
這十三年當中 農業部難道沒有做任何的努力說 假設你們覺得公糧收購價格的這個制度是不好的你們有什麼東西可以取代它 你們十三年都沒有作為今天才來告訴我說 你要一級二轉三加三 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
22110.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
22117.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
然後基本上你的一級二轉三加三全部都是現行的再加上多一點點錢這樣子那你為什麼不把那多一點點的錢拿來 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
22123.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
22145.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
做公糧收購價格的提高呢我就不理解你一級二轉三加三要花多少錢呀搞不好要花一百億然後我們這個公糧收購價格提高八塊只要花二十三億你不用好 不好意思 謝謝沒有啦 我有算啦 提供八塊這樣花二十三億而已啊一百零八億啦沒有 一百零八億是他算的啦一併來補充說明 非常感謝請洪孟愷書記長走私一億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
22153.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
22157.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
公共政策都可以討論但是我們看到說提出這樣的一個方案這幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
22182.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
22208.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
這一兩個月鋪天蓋地你很多的媒體報導什麼就開始又在講說這個工糧漲價的話會造成等等等等的這個產業的一個部分還是一樣啊是導果為因還是導因為果就是說從2011年到現在過去13年內到底我們這個農民朋友他的一些成本漲了多少你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
22211.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
22238.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
相關的這個成本都有漲價的一個情況那你現在講說公糧如果說在漲價的話反而會再造成說其他的這個漲我其實說實在的話我們第一次看到說有做那麼做這個PowerPoint那麼精美的這個簡報彩色的但是你不要只是講負面影響一個公共政策一定有好有壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
22239.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
22258.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那公糧價格調漲有什麼負面影響,你把它羅列那麼多那你怎麼不講說公糧價格調高有什麼正面影響那還有啊,如果說公糧價格調高有負面影響,那你是意思是怎樣公糧價格可以降低,可以帶來正面是不是不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
22260.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
22285.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
是不是 邏輯問題啊如果 哇 你現在在講是說工糧價格高只要工糧價格高了 產業成本就會上漲那難道工糧價格低 產業成本就會下跌嗎不是啊 所以它不是必然 你懂我意思嗎現在是因為產業的成本也跟著高了所以說現在民意代表 不管是藍的 不管是綠的都希望幫這些農民來請命說有沒有可能有討論的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
22287.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
22315.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
好 我再拉回來啊過去 遠的不講至少過去兩次公糧價格調漲靠近選舉年大家也講是不是有什麼相關的一個因素那我們現在剛好是大選剛結束的時候我們真的可以比較理性勿實的來討論公糧價格十三年沒有漲的這樣的一個因素本席真的很不希望啊你現在告訴我們說不能漲不能漲因為成本會降 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
22316.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
22340.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
提高 結果過兩年了2026到了 2028到了突然間農業部要來公糧價格調漲不要這樣子所以現在我們反而是一個因為沒有選舉的因素各自回到原本本席沒有反對或否認你的一、二、三一級二轉三加三 很好能夠做去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
22342.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
22357.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
不衝突真的不衝突一級二轉三加三去做我們鼓勵農業部好好的做但是供糧價格調漲的部分適時的反映最基本的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
22358.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
22374.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以我們的結論我們現在不知道民進黨團的代表的意見怎麼樣民眾黨團是說提高五塊國民黨團的這個我們的提案包括張家俊委員、楊全文委員等等是建議提高八塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
22375.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
22393.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那是不是有一個合理的計算大家來去做一個評估行政部門能不能告訴我們說過去至少這十年來這個農民朋友的成本到底漲了多少那適時的來做一個合理的評估跟合理的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
22398.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
22422 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
謝謝紅夢凱書記長的發言接下來請陳部長發言完再請柯總召最後發言請陳部長謝謝院長還有謝謝剛才委員的一些疑問那我這邊第一個要說明的就是公糧的制度全世界只剩下台灣有這個公糧制度日本跟我們臨近的過去日本跟韓國都有但是都在二零一幾年的時候就已經都停掉了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
22423.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
22439.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
公糧 剛才委員說公糧如果是不好要停那個停絕對不是明天就宣布說不收公糧了一定是漸進式的所以我們希望說因為百分之七十是繳民糧如果越多人繳民糧 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
22440.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
22441.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
22470.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
22471.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
22488.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
22503.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
總統的因素也提高了那我們今天如果只處理到因為很抱歉農業部不能只雖然說這個議題是公糧但是我們在考慮政策的設計的時候不能只考慮稻作這個部分我們也要考慮其他的一個產業所以換句話說 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
22505.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
22528.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
同樣的我剛才有說過其他的產業他面臨成本提高的時候他是想辦法提高他的生產效率那我剛才也說了我們的這個政策裡面我們就會去引導這些也許他年紀比較大的能夠來參與這個極端產區過去也許我們只是有一個公告你要來不來隨便你但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
22528.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
22543.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我會以非常負責任的一個態度我們會更積極的主動去協助這些慢慢的把它轉出來它當然也不可能說明天政策一宣布就轉過來所以它需要是一點時間那最重要的一點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
22544.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
22573.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
當我們在處理這樣的一個價格的議題的時候我們一定要看到產業的前景農業一定要持續去進步那在這個前提之下我們要找到一個橫平性這是我們設計這樣的一個政策的一個主要的原因謝謝謝謝陳部長 接下來請柯建民總召發言吳思堯委員請準備這個供應能收穫價格提高大清起來對農民一定很有利每一個人 立委好像很喜歡急 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
22574.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
22595.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
那為何十三年前提到現在又再提呢?我們要了解啦,台灣是全世界唯一還在工廠收購了。我們剛才部長也講得很清楚嘛,所有產業鏈都是有產業鏈,你工廠收購價格提高當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
22597.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
22625.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
這個工資會提高 也會帶動其他嘛那公糧收購只有百分之三十而已啊然後其他沒有交公糧的 那我們要不要照顧所以 因為比較重點就是說那農業難道只有這個用這個道具 用這個工具來補助島民嗎農業還有其他欸還有出口發廢等等 太多了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
22626.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
22654.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
所以我們不要用簡單的邏輯就是說我這樣提高對農民會很高興但是百分之七十並沒有拿到百分之三十有啊所以我認為大家要想一想議法委員提一個法案我們不知道這是什麼案子叫做結議案也罷要叫政府付出一百多億因為五塊錢要九十億 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
22656.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
22685.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那這個可以這樣做嗎?因為有一個決議案有一個決議案這個有一百零八算好你再對一下嘛那隨時大家提一個決議就叫政府要多付出這個憲法上合不合啊?要想一想啊?是不是這樣?你讓人家再多我來拿一個明天要保守什麼要保國那五樹蔬菜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
22689.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
22704.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
這個是可以這樣嗎?你再想一想好不好我認為這個邏輯你們自己要想清楚好像表面上討好我們但是大部分沒有人大部分你會得罪大部分沒有人拿到的好謝謝柯建民總統的發言請吳思瑤委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
22705.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
22706.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
22729.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
22729.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
三、研 三、研 三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
22751.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
22775.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
當時條是因為選舉前也被批判了是真的照顧農民還是肥了糧商是不是選前的政策買票等等當時的新聞都可考了但是一個政策十三年來沒有再去依循帳供糧的這一個做法就我一個學習公共政策的人我會思考到的是這個政策工具可能不是最有效的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
22776.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
22791.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
所以政府不會一直用這個增加收購公糧的增加價碼來作為一個照顧農民的一個例行的方法我是這樣在解讀那另外呢公平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
22793.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
22810.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
百分之七十沒有繳交公糧的農民他受惠不到這是第一個公平性第二個公平性所有的農民也不是只有種植水稻的需要政府來照顧剛剛講的其他的果樹、蔬菜、花卉 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
22813.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
22830.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
會、雜糧這些東西所以對於照顧農民的本身的公平性種水稻的然後有繳公糧沒繳公糧的這是一個公平性第二個公平性是種水稻的跟種其他類別的農作物的它本身的公平性我覺得我們要思考這是第二個層面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
22831.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
22857.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
第三個層面的問題我站在一個國家預算的思考如果因為今天國民黨的版本是八塊然後民眾黨是五塊那如果以八塊來講的話收購的預算要增加到一百九十四點六億好沒關係我現在看到資料那我會擔心是不是會造成其他的農業部的預算對於其他農業政策的排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
22859.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
22876.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
這個一定要去思考到這件事情就像我們之前在說這個原住民的這個禁法補償大家都想要幫助原住民族的禁法補償的這些原住民但是他排擠了將近八成以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
22877.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
22901.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
就是讓原住民族委員會每年的預算只剩下15%左右可以用來做它真正可以做的更多的業務它就是嚴重的排擠所以最後講回來一件事情是我們院會剩下最後一兩天要處理我每天這個計算機都一直在算老人福利法還沒有協商到 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
22902.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
22926.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
要增加如果六十五歲以上的老人免健保費的話要增加國庫三百五十九億全民健保法我們的健保點值從零點九五到一塊可能會增加最多一千一百五十五億再到今天公糧的收購如果我看到的我不知道正不正確一百九十四點六 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
22927.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
22949.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
我們坐在這裡﹐可能這二十四到四十八小時之內﹐我們立法委員用立委的提案﹐就要增加國家的預算支出﹐高達一千七百多億﹐我就用這三個案子就好﹐我們當然要整體做國家財政的思量﹐它的利用在哪裡﹐是正確﹐是合宜﹐是公平的﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
22950.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
22966.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
當然最後一點就是立法委員基於財政紀律法2019年修過的我們是不能夠增加新的支出然後沒有找到合宜的財源這根本上就是違反財政紀律法我們已經哆嗦的來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
22972.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
22986.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
這不好意思我不是農業縣但是我用一個公共政策的角度在看待國家的預算財務的支出它的公平性它會不會造成排擠然後它對於國家整體財政可能造成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
22986.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
23010.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
其他的副作用我們都希望照顧農民但是到底是給了強心針還是下錯藥都需要再思考好嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝吳世瑤的發言接下來張家俊委員在發言之後我就喊休息五分鐘回到洪孟凱書記長剛才跟陳部長所溝通的還有沒有一點空間我們用那個寶貴的五分鐘來溝通現在請張家俊委員發言,請 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
23013.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
23037.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
剛剛吳思瑤委員所講的說實在我覺得是有道理的就是說我們要站在一個國家的角度來思考每一樣支出到底對國家有沒有幫助那不禁讓我去想到說我們因為非核家園我們因為非核家園三年來已經撥補了台電四千零一億為什麼不去討論這個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
23043.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
23070.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
補貼台電因為你們不想要用核能因為民進黨的黨綱裡面把非核家園納在裡面你怎麼不說這些都是我們民眾的錢你說健保補貼三百多億假設這個真的是一百億好了兩個加起來四百億你撥補台電四千億是大手一揮而且台電目前還累積虧損三千八百五十億這一個錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
23072.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
23084.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
誰來負 為什麼要堅持不用核能堅持在這個月開始 這個月二十七號要停掉核三的第一具機組呢一度電一塊的錢 一度電一塊不去用 你要用五塊三塊甚至現在更離譜的 你自願斷電我補助你一度十塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
23095.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
23112.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
不肯去面對國家缺電的現實就是不願去面對國家缺電的現實而現在你來告訴我說我們要為國家著想我們不能夠就是去增加這個線預算但是你們自己在增加的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
23113.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
23140.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
是沒有在顧及其他的所以這一點我必須要提出那另外補充一點就是陳部長剛剛講的他說他要慢慢取代這個公糧收購價格這個論述我不是沒有聽過我也沒有不贊成但是在你想出可以取代的方法之前你必須先照顧他們嘛而且我們在講的是這30%最弱勢的農民而且呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
23142.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
23162.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
他講說慢慢取代其實這個公糧收購價格已經執行了五十年了就已經五十年了你都想不出辦法那你如果有想出好的辦法我相信我們不分藍綠白都會支持所以我也希望部長你不要因為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
23165.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
23193.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
為了...為了...我不曉得你是為了什麼不贊成啦 因為過去你也是贊成的我不知道為什麼你現在當了部長你就不贊成所以呢 這一點我也很好奇 謝謝謝謝張大靜委員發言 現在請柯建民總召發言張大靜委員 你在作為比喻的時候 你的比喻錯誤了 你這樣反而...自己那一種窘境 你知道嗎怎麼為了價延台電補助...我們台電補助四千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
23194.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
23223.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
台電是因為沒有漲價,所以能源價有一漲,然後電價沒有漲那它們的費用價也沒有關係可是你坦白講,台電在破產的話,全民都要負擔這是,它照顧的是全民對不對?但是我們覺得台電的電價不合理的時候要調整嘛就是說,不太修,像台積電大餐廳,我們這樣聊天又不容易這些都要調整嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
23224.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
23240.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
所以你這個演繹不對啦怎麼會有加研當中不對那你說戒嚴那有五十年的嘛這補助是五十年戒嚴時期的產物嘛包括我現在在改你就想說逐漸來調整既然要逐漸調整的話你怎麼可以再調高呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
23242.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
23266.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
應該如果把他落日起來 全世界只有台灣還在搞落日是柯總早講的喔所以未來我們現在農業部是說以後要出去宣告說這個好啦 老實講 你講的喔我知道你的心情啦 但是這個邏輯上要大家 你的心情有生計喔 大家 這個都可以你講的是喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
23270.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
23295.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
他都是說要調整嘛你講這樣講這樣五十年這個就代表老蔣時代建議時期的產物啦所以現在這個東西已經不是現在主的價值思考了過去就是為了我們年輕改革那就是國民黨時期要去拉攏公務人員嘛所以要年輕改革嘛所以這些很多東西是在時代是不一樣的我們希望你要引到這邊來應該來檢討就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
23299.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
23313.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
你只要補助少數人那三十趴的人那會排擠那其他人要不要補助那這全世界只有國臺灣還存在這個這件事情產物大家要重新來思考那怎麼讓那產業能夠經營發展農業能夠經營發展這才比較重要的事情嘛那你現在這樣大筆一揮八個贏 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
23322.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
23340.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
謝謝柯總召的發言 接下來會休息五分鐘麻煩農業部陳部長回到剛才幾位委員還有沒有空間大家討一個折衷點出來 這個非常重要休息之後我們來決定如何處理謝謝大家 我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
23425.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
23429.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
肚體剛剛你不會去控制他們喔這個如果能夠控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
24044.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
24069.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
好 謝謝各位黨團幹部我們請就座我們繼續來進行我們的繼續進行我們的討論接下來請張祺凱委員請簡短二要說明 謝謝得獎異定化 院長說不要講那兩個字可是我要拜託一下沒有沒有 不要講那兩個字講粗心啦 那個柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
24072.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
24088.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
基層的農民生活真的是苦的我們今天到底在討論什麼我們在討論怎麼照顧我們最基層的農民給他一個最基本的生活所需剛剛佳慶提那個述是很好啊你聽了不心疼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
24090.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
24093.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
幫他們幫他們幫他們一把我們今天討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
24120.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
24149.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
首席都不夠了 我們來幫他好不好來幫他們 來幫他們我剛聽到的齁 我剛聽到的我先唸一段文字好不好阿保定現在找一段保定在你左邊 重點在左邊 不是在右邊你五位六號啊去高雄美濃視察稻谷區域乾燥中心並且參與美濃高埔埔鼎迷場的這個啟用典禮你在致詞的時候你要引諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
24151.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
24176.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
未來會幫農民提高收入．也希望農民能以身為農業經營者為榮那時候美農區的中幹署 鍾清輝你記得嗎鍾清輝出席這個啟用典禮 他跟中央喊話希望能夠提高稻米收購價格 透過米存摺的方式 穩定農民的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
24178.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
24195.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
那時候的代理部長陳俊濟回答表示農業部未來會透過審慎思考的規劃以提高稻農收入為準則包括提高公糧價格的收購我再說一次好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
24201.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
24230.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
陳代理部長回應說 農業部未來會透過審慎思考與規劃以提高稻農收入為準則 包括提高公糧的價格這是你嘴巴講的話啊 不夠兩個位啊 五個車輛啊你有什麼壓力嗎這是第一個點 我先強調我們的基層農民現在收入 這是賺不到錢我們幫他好不好 這是第一個點我們在討論的 不要去扯到其他的 第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
24231.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
24256.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
對農業部跟政府的責任你們現在不是只有壓低他或說不幫他啊你們有太多方法啊最近不是臺美二十一世紀貿易倡議美國要要求開放很多農產品進來嗎我們有幫我們的稻農說我們的稻米要怎麼外銷嗎你們有開口說美國的農產品要進來我們的稻米可以到美國去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
24258.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
24283.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
我們的政府 我們人心自認 我們政府幫我們的大農幫農民做了多少事情你們說連最基本的生老手續都不幫他們你們至少冒著良心講 你說真的是貴賬 那你幫他外銷啊至少在台美二十一世紀 貿易參與的時候 美國所有農產品進來你開口說我們的大農有需要把大米到那邊去啊 你們有沒有開口 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
24285.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
24312.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
先回過頭我先回過頭問我們政府幫我們農民做了什麼事情當你應該幫他解決問題就跟這些雞蛋一樣啊雞蛋過剩那天卓院長講得很好啊我們不只是多了雞蛋蛋液不應該進去我們要幫雞蛋找出路啊你們有幫我們的稻農找出路嗎當政府都沒有幫我們稻農的時候他們生活這麼苦為什麼不幫他們呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
24314.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
24342.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
我剛唸了這一段你當初的初心跟我剛在講的柯總專的初心回過頭幫幫我們的道容好不好好那如果今天真的還沒有答我這樣心疼我們的農民大家還是不接受國民黨已經提案嘛台灣民眾黨基於理性物質科學我們也算出來這段時間成本貴了那麼多物價高了那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
24343.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
24362.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
人工高的那麼多 最近通膨又那麼嚴重你想像你如果是一個成長在那個農家的家庭 你受到多大的衝擊為什麼不調呢 現在經公司都要調啊剛剛怎麼會有一個理論說 公民黨調了以後 其他周遭的跟著漲那這樣經公司要不要調上個禮拜又有立委問央行的總裁啊 說你現在要調四趴會不會帶動一些什麼物價什麼那些 總裁說不會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
24373.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
24395.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
為什麽進攻照條都不會有影響 功能稍微動一下下什麽萬物 什麽成本就跟著漲 這樣有道理嗎我們理性物質科學 講道理 也心疼 那麽期待總之我們做個結論好不好 期待 不要一毛不拔 不要寸草不生國民黨提八塊 一公斤五塊錢 不要八塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
24399.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
24403.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
我建議啦,能不能不要一毛不拔啦,我們至少看到什麼適度的提升一部分,現在國民黨提了八塊嘛,我們提了一公斤五塊嘛,我們找到一個折衷石, |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
24422.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
24430.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
你如果民進黨提十三塊我們贊成好不好至少要五塊錢你如果要五塊錢就送到議會表決好不好謝謝張啟凱委員發言那我要想請農業部發言那柯總長你要發言嗎我當然要發言啊好你請柯總長請農業部這你賣豬的肚子想賣豬的肚子麻煩麻煩說說我看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
24442.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
24462.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
好像是他發現全世界唯一一個邏輯理論 好像是非常理性、務實、科學 一點都不理性、不科學心疼我們的農民這兩個農民要講啦 我們在這裏不應該什麼這種民事在互相攻擊 心疼大家都一樣的心疼 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
24464.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
24491.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
好像是要你在心疼 不要講這種話我們講理性物質科學就好了你要知道我們現在只有補助我們 你講到二十億貿易預存然後我們面對農產品 這個是很大的壓力 沒有錯當然是只有大農嗎 是整個農業的我們在廣東整個是農業的那你可以補助大農 為什麼不能補助 怎麼發揮呢蔬菜呢 這是農業嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
24494.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
24521.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
我要講的是說 這個補助是前一世紀唯一的已經五十幾年了 是戒嚴時期的產物 老蔣時代的產物那現在那種思維已經是落伍了 已經要轉型正義了包括我們過去為什麼要年輕改革就是那種共和黨的票嘛 所以所謂替代役比退休的時候 哪超過一百多趴嘛這些都是 你要去想一想這原點在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
24522.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
24522.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
陳昇宜是港黨的母子徒 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
24533.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
24553.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
你這個補助以後大家去做多做重的話雜糧就壓下來嘛所以這個是一個產業鏈不是只有單看一個點不要魚館虧爆好不好所以我們什麼叫理性呢我們就是要理性討論你知道到底這個這種制度的存在是應該要落入 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
24555.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
24578.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
張佳慶可以講說應該要落日 大家比較不會 我沒有說要落日我的意思是說你的說法是要落日的意思啊我們要如何用普惠性的 讓整個農產品 大家到農都增加 產能增加 增加這才是對嘛所以 要講理性就是才是比較理性啊 物質也是如此啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
24579.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
24585.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
應該從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前...從前... |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
24591.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
24619.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
這很務實嗎?這很科學嗎?我跟您報告一下等一下我幫你講完好像你講完以後不要我就表決我不知道你用什麼基礎了這法律基礎在什麼地方呢?你把我一個捷運就可以增加國家支出一百多億這是法律基礎在哪裡?你是用預售法?還是哪一個法?傳遞記憶法?還是憲法?哪一個法律基礎在哪裡?你國會托入辦事處你民間就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
24620.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
24637.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
讓一個表決增加一百多億,後邊也可以再創造一個表決,我要照顧移民,再增加兩百億也可以。這又搞什麼?這之前是這樣搞的,你對有沒有法律基礎?有沒有憲法基礎?我先講這個,你不要說我建法,我批評他,不要管。 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
24641.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
24644.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
陳副長說我很怕你再講科學又拖延陳副長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
24659.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
24687.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝院長,我想非常簡單的再一點回應第一個就是我向來的立場,從520向來的立場我覺得我要讓農民成為一個非常有尊嚴的一個職業我們要讓外界看待農民是要看他對這片台灣這片土地守護的這個貢獻這個是我一定是堅持的所以我在歷次的本身,我說一定是提高農民所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
24688.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
24705.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
不是盜農 這兩個是不一樣喔因為農業部看的是整體的農民而不是一個族群的農民不是說那個不重要第二個部分說我說我們一定會找到一個最好的一個方法那很多選項提高公糧收購也是一個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
24707.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
24732.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
所以在那個時間點是這樣子那特別跟他提到了那個美濃的中總幹事他本來也是支持說要提高的後來他看到我們這個政策這個政策其實在我們在前幾個禮拜有跟一些極端產區的農會做溝通他們反而是支持這樣的方式那我剛才也講了像花東地區他都不繳公糧90%是不繳公糧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
24734.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
24757.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
那那一些完全是反對的所以換句話說一個公糧的收購光是種到的人就有不同的聲音那我們希望說用我們的方法能夠穩健的讓我們台灣的農業包括我們的水稻產業能夠持續的進步那我會非常負責任的去落實這樣的一個政策那也請我們的委員來支持 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
24759.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
24765.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
謝謝各位委員同仁、黨團幹部也謝謝農業部陳部長、各位列席的官員那我們現在先念一下我們黨團協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
24767.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
24786.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
協商主題 立法院國民黨團建請院會作成決議 農業部應調整供糧收購價格由每公斤二十六元調整至每公斤三十四元提高農民基本利潤 請供決案 開會時間一百一三年七月十二日星期五二十一時二十五分 開會地點議場三樓會議室 協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
24790.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
24817.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
一、本案及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提修正動議案均保留送請院會處理二、院會進行處理時由臺灣民眾黨黨團推派一位、美進黨黨團推派兩位、國民黨黨團推派兩位輪流交叉發言、順序授權議事處處理每人發言時間為三分鐘,發言後不再發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
24818.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
24823.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
及進行處理 請問各位黨團協商代表有沒有請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
24828.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
24839.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
要照顧的農民是全方位的你可以照顧百分之三十也可以照顧百分之七十啊為什麼你要把二分法勒人家講剛剛增加支出你也是預算專家你提到農經貼的時候沒有增加預算嗎你提到農經貼的時候沒有增加預算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
24848.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
24862.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
老農今天是全面的老農嗎還是你們願意增加老農今天老農今天是政府同意的那是一回事你再用一個決議來增加是一回事這基礎在哪裡我搞不懂明天提一個五百億 六天提一個八百億國家的財政要看公平度民進黨也提了很多增加預算的哪一個你講出來是要是要你講出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
24878.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
24881.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
行政部門的預算還要經過立法院同意各位黨團幹部本案顯然大家無法達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
24897.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
24910.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
所以本案 國民黨黨及臺灣民眾黨所提修正動議均保留送院會處理謝謝大家 我們進入下一案我對於保留送院會處有非常保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
24916.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
24940.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
這樣不通啦 這樣不通啦所以說我們的民眾黨那不是最好 又找不到農民 又比較少總長沒有沒有 你轉啊 你轉啊沒有啦 我 微信的微信我們都可以更提 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
24992.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
25017.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
來,各位黨團幹部、各位閣員還有各位列席的官員,非常歡迎大家。我們首先介紹一下今天列席的閣員及各位官員。首先,法務部常務次長黃次長,歡迎您。司法院吳秘書長,歡迎您。數位發展部資源管理師牛司長,歡迎您。牛司長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
25019.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
25044.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
還沒到 國防部王處長歡迎您NCC法律事務處蔡處長歡迎您警政署刑事警察局張繼正歡迎您交通部民用航空局朱副組長歡迎您海洋委員會海巡署孫副組長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
25047.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
25071.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
個人資料保護委員會嚴科長歡迎您向各位黨團幹部報告昨天我們協商的結論名稱第一條至第十一條均保留送院會處理表決前繼續協商現在我們在表決前我們繼續協商請提議的柯建民總召請發言這是你提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
25073.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
25091.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我還是要很懇請拜託理性物質科學這個法案在現在科技偵察法剛剛要送到立法院來審查的時候和到目前為止民進黨黨團都包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
25095.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
25116.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
司法委員大家在執行,包括羅志祥等等,我們再重新調整過,已經修改了十個條文。換句話說,它原來的不一樣。當然我知道黃國昌委員主張是要修刑事訴訟法,但是呢,他講了一個很有道理的事情,就是刑事訴訟法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
25118.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
25133.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
含一個十幾的 但是現在已經不是十幾的問題了 程序的問題了 程序的問題 現在是包括十幾的又有罰則 又有增加犯罪類型 那今天我們要面對就是說 那這案 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
25135.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
25155.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
打詐科技偵、偵查法、打詐司法 大家都知道黨黨的傷口 全民都在等待我們今天早上第一案子跟第二案子是協商好的 詐欺危害防制法以及通訊保障法那剩下就是說科證法比較麻煩 因為有兩個法法體系在競合 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
25156.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
25178.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
那剩下另外一個法我是覺得還比較簡單有大家談的空間但是在這裡還是要很懇切拜託黃國昌委員我們面對一個事情就是說那使用者就是法務部那包括法院他也講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
25179.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
25207.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
他們兩個認為這樣的科技偵察法才能夠處理現在我們要硬加一個刑事訴訟法給他讓他沒有辦法完整處理的時候這兩個單位他們意見都表示得很清楚所以在這個地方我還是拜託黃國昌委員就明言及至於刑事訴訟法裡面我們先當然你提案有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
25208.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
25232.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
歷史筆記前的那個趕快處理這是沒有錯那假如這樣堅持下去的話表決通過你的版本事實上我們要的東西能夠在法上面處理是完全不見的那你也會說我知道你會有一些東西回到一個普通的刑法上面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
25234.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
25259.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
但是沒有辦法像規定在這個法上面、科技法上面能夠處理得這麼完整也有一些調整的所以我們包括有關於GPS和M化車等有關於犯罪犯罪人和嫌疑人的不一樣層次的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
25261.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
25286.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
所以我是覺得已經到這種程度了既然行政都提出來了那我也了解你的用心那我也過去談到林毓雄教授他也曾經主張過這個刑處反正德國體育行的體育是規範更完整嘛那現在是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
25287.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
25314.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
科證法裡面的這些東西印刷到...印刷到刑訴裡面嘛這一點我想在已經到最後時刻了那必須冷靜來面對這個事情了那我也跟副總召拜託嘛我知道他他是答應的但是很為難就是黃昌本還沒答應他也不敢隨便鬆口以上就是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
25316.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
25344.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
謝謝柯建民總召的說明接下來我們請臺灣民眾黨黨團黃總召請博凱署長請準備謝謝主席針對有關於在提供我們第一線檢警的同仁在科技偵察所需要的手段我們從一開始就是支持的而且是大力的在推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
25346.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
25371.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
這是為什麼在這個會期面對行政院院長、前行政院院長陳建仁的時候我提出質詢的主題就是這個從MR車到GPS第一次司法院來做業務報告、立法計畫的質詢的時候我也提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
25373.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
25378.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
那司法院過去基本上就是一個至少門權一些的心態 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
25379.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
25406.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
我也講過在德國因應科技偵察的手段過去這十幾年他們的刑訴條文是怎麼充實的去補強的這都不是說空話這個都是有很清楚立法上面的軌跡之前法務部提給行政院的版本所謂的科技偵察法 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
25409.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
25433.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
我上次協商的時候我有說過我從第一版看到最後一版來來回回好幾次當初有立專法的必要是因為裡面還牽涉到有關設備端通訊檢查的問題沒有辦法直接塞在其中一個特定的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
25434.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
25460.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
因為我們過去在處理有關於刑事訴訟、強制處分、偵查的部分的時候我們一開始就走岔的一條路就是有關於通訊檢查的部分立了特別法、刑事訴訟又立了一個法所以搞到你們那時候為什麼柯真法會併成柯真法我看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
25461.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
25490.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
因為你裡面有社會端的通訊監察你不曉得要怎麼塞社會端的通訊監察當然我知道有一些學者他們反外國的立法力覺得有必要但在台灣可能我們針對很多各自的保護這件事情做得完善的程度讓社會上沒有辦法沒有辦法放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
25491.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
25518.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
所以這件事情大家掙扎了很久那不管現在那個地方全部都拿掉了那所謂科技偵察的手段我們打開天窗數量化事實上主要就兩個嘛一個就M化車嘛一個就GPS嘛你最多再加一個熱顯像儀嘛那就三個嘛那就三種三種 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
25520.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
25528.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
在本質上面屬於強制處分的手段所以我們後來跟一些學者討論以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
25530.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
25551.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
也去了檢察官的論壇我跟吳宗憲委員都去了那民進黨的宗家斌委員其實又去所以為什麼他去完那個論壇以後回來宗家斌委員他還是提刑事訴訟法因為在那個論壇上面各方的意見其實我們都聽到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
25552.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
25574.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
所以回來我們才確定走刑事訴訟法的這條路這樣子的態度在上次協商完了以後我再度跟一些前輩再請教再確認他們還是認為放在刑事訴訟法裡面是一個比較完善的立法體力 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
25575.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
25585.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
而且就有關於後來透過修正動議所增加的那些刑罰的部分其實我上次已經大概約六個點到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
25587.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
25608.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
那個某個程度上就是在現有的刑法規範體系裡面本來就可以處理的問題但為了要去把它弄成像一個我真的有立特別法的必要而去增加了其他的特別刑法的規定你反而會發生跟普通刑法法規競合的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
25610.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
25627.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
其實回到普通刑法去處理就可以了那這樣子的想法跟立場這樣的想法跟立場到今天沒有什麼改變那今天晚上吳宗憲召委他可能另有邀功他沒有辦法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
25628.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
25657.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
所以我剛剛在協商以前 我也再度打了電話跟他確認 確認說他的想法有沒有改變那我得到正式的答覆是他的想法沒有改變那以上說明謝謝黃國昌總召的補充說明接下來我們請洪孟凱書記長發言然後請法務部準備法務部法務司法院再講一下好 院長不管黑貓白貓 抓老鼠的就是好貓 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
25658.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
25688.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
今天打詐司法裡面最後一塊拼圖我想我們大家都希望能夠讓國家有更強而有力對付犯罪的工具但是我們人民的立場也不希望國家掌握太大的一個權力而導致於求援進裁判這是疑慮所以今天既然有科技偵察法跟刑事訴訟法而且一個是司法院也提出相關的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
25689.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
25717.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
法務部有相關版本 代表其實這兩個版本都能夠補足我們認為說欠缺的這塊拼圖所以這也是我講說黑貓白貓只要能抓老舌都好貓那現在重點在於是說 有一個部分是讓我們覺得聽起來比較有可能 它是有疑慮的有球員兼裁判的 以及它可能會變成是我們比較難以去監督制衡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
25718.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
25745.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
所以我想等一下我也希望是能夠請司法院跟法務部來再說明一下如果說兩個都可以達到一樣的效果那是不是我們能夠尊重在刑事訴訟法這個部分來補足這一塊相對來講可能可以化解比較多現在大家對於這個未來如果通過之後的疑慮但是又能夠達到一致的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
25746.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
25769.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
我想這樣子比較務實因為大家都已經辛苦一整天了那我也希望等一下兩個部會司法院跟法務部在回答的時候真的也可以互相的來確認一下因為我想這樣子我們才能夠往前啊不然其實看起來剛剛柯總召跟黃總召兩位總召各講各的話之後你也沒有一個定見嘛好不好 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
25771.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
25773.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
主席各位委員大家好就法務部的立場我們當然還是希望能夠定在專法裡面理由已經講了非常多了我則要的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
25798.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
25817.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
那科技偵察它所涉及的不一定是純然是訴訟法面的東西它也許有包括相關的行政面的事項有可能如同民進黨黨團所修正動議的涉及到刑責的部分這部分立法體力上它都不可能定在刑訴法上這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
25817.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
25844.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
第二點,就整個科技新興的科技方法不斷擴充之下﹐我們現在所訂的只有三種科技偵察方法﹐但是未來的科技方法是要不斷地日新夜異﹐為了因應整個科技方法的新興科技方法﹐唯有透過一個專法的立法模式﹐它才能快速地反映執法機關它的需求﹐如果訂在刑事訴訟法裡面﹐刑事訴訟法基本上是整個我們刑事訴訟程序的根本大法﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
25845.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
25866.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
這根本大法基本上它要適用在整個刑事訴訟程序它基本上它不應該動輒修正甚至就是說為了某一個特定的一個偵查方法設了一個特定的一個特別規定所以我們主張這部分不應該設在這個定在這個刑事訴訟法第三個我們也是大院一直非常在意的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
25867.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
25881.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
為了避免我們這個濫權．所以訂了很多監督．甚至很多相關的行者的規定．要去控制我們科技偵察執行機關的濫用．所以有相關行者的規定．當然黃委員剛才講得非常好． |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
25882.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
25898.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我們現行刑法就可以去處罰相關的刑責規定但是我們相關現行刑法有關刑責規定它基本上都在處罰所謂的洩密罪相關的刑罰規定但是我們違法使用科技偵察不見得都一定是洩密它甚至有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
25899.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
25927.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
他只是違法我們這個科技偵查方法．就應該要去處罰．就應該要刑責．不見得有秘密被洩漏出去．第二個．他所洩漏出來的資料．也不見得是我們刑法上所定性的秘密．所以有可能他是不能夠完全的覆蓋到．刑法是完全不能夠覆蓋．我們違法使用科技偵查所應該要制裁的一個相關行為．所以我們說有必要在科技偵查法裡面．訂一個相關的刑責的規定去． |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
25929.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
25949.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
要求我們相關的執法機關按照我們大院所要求的監督機制去確實落實的執行我們相關科技偵察的相關的規定所以從以上的規定來看無論從法的立法的這個現有的這個方向或者未來擴充性來講還是希望能夠定在專法以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
25952.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
25980.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
謝謝法務部黃市長的說明接下來我們請司法院吳秘書長請院長、各位委員、各位先進昨天我們副秘書長來司法院的立場就是傾向定專法昨天副秘書長也都因為這個都有直播理由也都講得很充分我們今天刑事廳也可以再補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
25988.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
25999.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先進大家好其實委員這邊講的各項的立法的方向其實站在刑事廳的觀點認為都是有道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
25999.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
26028.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
那不過我們針對這個剛剛主席的這個要求我們還是要摺要的說明一下其實就如同我們秘書長說的其實就是一個立法政策的選擇上我們應該還是要選擇一個最適當的方式雖然說固然兩種說法都是有道理但是我們還是要選擇一個比較適當的方式那為什麼我們刑事廳認為說專法是比較適當呢那大概的理由就在於可能有以下的幾點就是說第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
26029.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
26045.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
所謂的科技偵查它不純然只是一個程序法的面向它將來還是有可能不斷融入一些其他的科技偵查手段這時候可能就需要有一些實體的民事、刑事甚至是行政責任的規定那這些就不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
26046.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
26062.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
就不是這個刑事的程序可以規範的那另外呢也可能需要一些行政的管制措施包含一些相關的機政的一些保管或是銷毀等等的一些管制措施那這個也不適宜訂在這個刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
26063.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
26088.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
那最後一個甚至可能還會有國會監督的問題就如同通保法國會是可以要求相關的執行機關要定期做一些報告的那這個也不適合定在刑事訴訟法這是第一點那第二點的話就是說以我國的實務的慣例來講其實我們有很多的法律都不是定在刑訴或民訴比方說如果以我們這個司法院組長的法律來講我們的國民法官法 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
26089.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
26114.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
他其實也是刑訴的一種但他就不是定在刑訴他就直接定了一個國民法官法那像治審法他是民事訴訟的一種可是他就不是定在民事訴訟法那甚至像家事事件法他也是訴訟的一種可是他就不是定在民事訴訟法都以專法來定定這個是為了避免這些傳統的民事訴訟法、刑事訴訟法因為不斷有新的類型的產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
26115.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
26143.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
最後可能會導致這些傳統的法律的適用上的困擾所以就用一些專法來因應時代不斷的變遷所以我覺得這一點來講可能在我國的實務上已經有行租有年的慣例就這些方面都有一些專法來因應那雖然德國他的確是採取刑事訴訟法的體力可是畢竟那是外國的立法力未必能夠適合台灣現在目前實務的操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
26144.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
26171.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
那第三點的話就是說委員之前曾經有質疑過如果不定在刑事訴訟法可能會有證據能力或者是說一些這個法官控制上或監控上的困擾可能會不太相信這個執行機關的執行的這個能力那這個部分我想不管是定在刑訴或是定在特別法其實都法官都會依法來執行證據能力或者是法官保留檢察官保留這一方面都不會有任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
26172.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
26172.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
吳思瑤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
26188.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
26212.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
謝謝 大家都辛苦了 很晚了其實我們都很希望 像剛剛孟愷委員講的我們打炸四法最後一塊拼圖我覺得其實看實質其實在刑訴的幾個案子提出刑訴包括民眾黨、黨團其實內容也就是我們科增法寫的內容一樣嘛實質面是一樣 就是立法你選擇要放在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
26213.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
26243.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
那我在司法法治委員會的時候我們討論很多其實用專法的方式很多你剛剛講國民法官法我記得羈押法也是嘛對不對我記得監獄刑刑法也是都是在刑事的程序之外還另外用一個專法是讓它可以更在擴充性可以更及時的因應新的狀況容易去擴充然後也另一方面也就是維持了刑事訴訟法的法的安定性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
26244.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
26261.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
這個就是很基本的東西那我個人會認為用課真法一個專法更可以凸顯在我們因應這麼多新興的現在是放入這三種這個新的工具未來真的隨時會有很多要擴充那對於一個國會議員來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
26263.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
26279.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
專法在我們未來配套進行修法的時候它都是相對比較有彈性能夠處理的否則如果都放在刑事訴訟法裡頭你以後要因應新的方式做一些調整的時候除了法務部之外我們都還要去會賢司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
26280.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
26302.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
我覺得每次那個法案的會選司法院那個就拖很久意見相對比較繁複就程序上所以我認為打詐這件事情是要非常快速精準而且要有很大的彈性然後賦予它未來執法的擴充性的這個層面那用一個專法我覺得是一個合宜適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
26303.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
26330.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
而且合用的方法另外一方面我倒是過去在討論過程當中我比較沒有注意到但謝謝剛剛你們提供的觀點就是說在國會監督的層次上確實它用一個專法我覺得這提供給國常委員這邊可以參考一下因為它是一個專法而且它是一個新的專法我們其實國會未來在監督的行使過程可以隨時要求它針對一個新法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
26332.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
26352.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
頒布上路之後的執行的狀況．隨時要來專案報告．要來做什麼樣的補充．我自己就我的國會經驗裡頭．我認為．我們反而真的是比較能夠去．去reach到我們想要的監督的層面．否則你把它放在一部．那麼大的《刑事訴訟法》裡面的．一小部分幾個條文． |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
26353.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
26377.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
哪一個可以在我國會監督權的行使上是比較便利的我覺得這個層面我是覺得我今天收穫到這個思考的層面對於我們立法的監督者上也是一個很值得去深思跟思考的部分所以我是真的是要懇求我覺得我們都花了這麼多時間打造司法的最後一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
26378.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
26401.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
實質上都沒有太大的差異了對於我們對於這三種信心的偵辦的方法我們都同意放進來了實質上真的沒有什麼太大的差異在這個立法選擇上是不是真的請國常委員而且我真的覺得這未來對於我們的監督的行事其實是更便利的不用凡是在一個刑事訴訟法那麼大的法律裡頭去做處理啦我真的覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
26407.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
26430.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
實質上我們拿到協助幫助法務部我們的犯罪部門還有包括內政部我們每一次問他們不管是刑事警察局也好內政部也好法務部也好他們都認為這樣比較合以好用那是不是讓執法的單位他們畢竟是執法者我覺得這個要尊重他們真的是要懇切的懇求 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
26433.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
26450.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
跟列席的閣議員跟官員報告因為我們協商的模式時常是這樣大家把意見表達完以後會喊一個休息有幾分鐘時間溝通一下所以也比較晚一點希望體力消耗比較大請你們諒解一下包括我本人眼睛都快睜不開了還是要照這個程序我們休息五分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
26883.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
26900.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
各位黨團幹部謝謝各位非常感謝大家也謝謝各位閣員跟官員大家都已經很晚了謝謝大家院裡面最近事情非常的多跟大家宣告科技偵查專法、刑事訴訟法各黨團仍然未有共識我們送院會進行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
26904.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
26927.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
因為《刑事訴訟法》即日第二十二十院會我們將臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚《刑事訴訟法》第兩百四十五條及兩百四十五條之一條文修正草案自委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並案協商那我想我們就並案在院會的時候再一併處理在臺灣民眾黨所提的今天才提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
26929.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
26950.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
國民黨黨團來函請本席甄列協商議題包括解除附大陸觀光限制、政交法第十四條、花東快條例、健保法第六十二條、刑法第兩百八十六條、凌虐兒少罪等案我們列為下星期一協商議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
26953.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
26978.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
下星期一下午兩點半在紅樓302會議室我們繼續進行草野協商另外針對本次會議討論事項列表當中各黨團任有需進行協商者我們星期一下午也可以予以爭列非常感謝大家祝大家有一個美麗的晚上大家晚安 謝謝現在上會 |