| IVOD_ID |
16096 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16096 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024071095 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-11T13:30:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-11T16:20:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:49:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dc95e053c453ffb768db79021df942dcf28aaa308df9ea373ae2be62129b777c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-11T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員萬美玲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:20 - 16:20:00 |
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873.291 |
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委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2737.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2739.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
編曲 李宗盛編曲 李宗盛編曲 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2755.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2778.344 |
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好來我們現在開始開會我們開始進行黨團協商那本案在教育及文化委員會審查的結果我們還有保留第四條第五條增訂第七條之一第十條第十一條第十二條第十七條增訂第十七條之一等八個條文跟相關的修正動議還有附帶決議實案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2781.425 |
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2785.348 |
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那我們現在就開始繼續我們是不是先從第四來 我們要介紹官員是吧大家都很熟了 天啊 我們真的是相看兩不厭好 來 教育部長鄭一耀 鄭部長 謝謝我們的政次 我們的張料萬堅謝謝我們的教育部學務司的吳林輝 吳司長還有我們國教署的彭復原 彭署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2808.832 |
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2818.7 |
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誒 彭處長 你的字是怎麼樣 你用毛筆寫是吧真的是 很漂亮來 教育部的我們法務處的我們的李處長還有我們的我們的吳小霞 吳司長 好不好還有我們的 對不起 我們還有法務部矯正誒 還有這個嗎 矯正署啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2830.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2834.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
法務部矯正署副署長林雲達林副署長人事總署副人事長懷旭內政部民政司專員劉專元衛福部檢任專事察行政院主計總署專委員王專委員衛福部心理健康司專委員洪專委員法務部參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2860.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2860.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
從第四條開始討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2875.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2875.589 |
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委員陳培鈺等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2906.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2926.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 謝謝大家我剛應這個召委的交代討論過的我就不再重複因為我第一次來那第四條裡面我提出一個附帶的意見因為不論在學輔法裡頭大家重點無論是常態性的人力的編制行政人員或者是任務性的大家都已經有很多的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2927.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2944.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但是我還是認為未來在行政人力的緣額到底會如何具體去做規劃會不會跟服務的量人的行政人力比會有所調整因此我希望提出一個附帶的意見未來教育部可以定期檢討學服中心的組織編制、適時研修符合實務的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2950.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2977.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這是在第四點我提出來的附帶意見那當然重點還是在人力比的部分所以第十一條我有另外一個條文的修正案修正動議提出來就是未來高中以下每15校就要設置一名專輔人員再加上每4500名學生要設置一名專輔人員這個是我在第十一條裡面的修正動議以上兩點跟大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2978.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2980.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
併案審查委員併案審查委員併案審查委員併案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
3005.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
3022.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
謝謝我們已經通過的部分那有幾個地方還是稍微提一下學生輔導諮商中心的正式編制簽證的層面真的是比較複雜但今天還是希望教育部至少能夠針對薪資提升保障薪資對齊的部分要講清楚那同時本席也針對本條有提出關於薪資的附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
3024.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
3047.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我個人認為同工不同酬的問題一定要在這一次的學生輔導法的修法做這樣的一個機會來處理當我們忽視食物現場同工不同酬的問題的時候除了人力流動的困境沒有辦法改善很可能也非常難去訴求好的服務品質和對孩子的保障所以我們應該要先照顧好幸福人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
3048.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
3057.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他們才能夠幫我們在照顧好整個教育的環境最後還是請教育部也如果可以的話回應一下先前本席問過的關於行政人力的規劃謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
3062.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
3080.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
果仁委的修正這是第十一條不好意思都等一下再送過來給我們好接下來陳佩玉委員我記得我們上一次在第四條卡了很久其實不是相關的工作內容卡太久我們其實是在正式化還是在薪資加急的部分卡了很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
3081.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
3107.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那我想要說的是上一次彭署長的說明我覺得確實也讓我們重新更加確定就是正式化編制的困境可能會有的困境會讓地方政府產生財務上的負擔或者是緣合上的限制那當時我記得有很多委員舉例談到家庭教育中心後來我們有跟教育部這邊私下討論家庭教育中心到底目前狀況是好是壞這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
3109.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
3135.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我覺得都還有很多要討論的地方所以到底是正式編制化還是只是加薪這件事情其實我個人現在是越來越覺得是不是需要更多的討論因為我自己當然希望這些地方學輔資中心的專家學者們心理師、老師或者是社工師所有在幫助學生的人他們可以得到最好的照顧因為我有把他們自己照顧好他們才有能力去照顧我們的孩子可是目前的困境是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
3136.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
3148.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
教育部或者是我們在相關資源上或是跟地方政府的溝通都還不夠確切是不是在今天我覺得在這一題我想要先提出這一條我覺得要保留啦好 謝謝今天還要再保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
3152.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
3168.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們今天在保留如果我還是強調一句話這個當然我們可以我們可以再協商了但對我個人來說我說實在我們如果今天所有的條文大家都沒有太大意見但是我們在這薪資的提升上面沒有辦法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
3169.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
3170.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
3192.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
3194.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
范雲等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
3213.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
3225.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
提出的更具體的規劃因為這才是對現場的老師一個最直接的支持也才是對我們的孩子最直接的支持啦所以我還是希望說教育部今天一定要清楚的來告訴我們到底我們具體的一個可以做的方式是什麼謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3230.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3253.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我能夠了解剛剛那個陳培委員說要保留的一個想法我想他不是因為我們會覺得如果在這個教育部現在這樣的狀況不明確的情況之下對於今天就能夠協商出一個結論抱有很大的疑慮所以才有可能說會不會就這一條很難談 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3254.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3280.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以我們希望教育部是不是能夠切正問題趕快來幫我們協助這件事那家庭教育中心來做一個舉例我坦白講我們聽到的狀況並不是很好所以拿家庭教育中心的狀況來研擬的話可能就會要蠻難去做一個比擬因為專輔人員他們的辛苦我想尤其到了這個年齡上的一個變化像最近這個有一個新的電影這個腦筋急轉彎2 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3283.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3297.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對不起他就是在講孩子的情緒變化到了青少年階段其實是很變化陌生的齁那所以我覺得專輔人員我還是在上一次強調我們現在就是很簡單第四條就是談薪資了到底他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3299.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3299.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3320.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3321.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3338.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3364.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
謝主席喔第四條我想我有整理一個新的修正動議是申訂第四項跟第五項那我們民進黨的所有教文委員會的委員也都有簽署喔那所以也希望教育部能夠來採納這個修正條文那在這份修正動議裡面喔我是明定地方政府要有絕對的彈性那判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3365.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3390.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
學生輔導諮商中心究竟要採取長設性的任務編組又或者是正式化的組織而且也因為教育部特別舉了家庭教育中心的案例來提醒納入正式化組織未必可以運作得很好所以本席在這一版的修正動議中特別強調說如果要採取正式化的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3391.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3413.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
必須是要經過評估認為確實能夠有效的發揮輔資中心的職能另外我也有參照文化基本法等五部法律的立法方式在合於財政紀律法規範的狀況之下要求中央跟地方主管機關寬列預算來降低學生輔資中心人員離職率 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3415.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3434.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
提升專業者任職意願供應學生完備資產管道考量到任何看似在完善的制度實施起來都發現有不足之處本席在第五項特別要求中央及地方政府逐年會商並檢討及調整輔資 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3440.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3441.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員范雲等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3455.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3471.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第四條據說這個正式化是不是或常識化這部分我們已經討論很久了那因為林宜瑾委員的這個修正同意早上有找我討論那我看他已經又在做修正了所以看起來可行性是蠻高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3473.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3497.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
當然我們今天也有很多針對薪資各種部分的附帶決議如果可以配合林宜瑾委員這個修正動議的話至少我覺得這一條如果能夠以林宜瑾的部分的文字跟我們相關的薪資的附帶決議通過的話應該是能夠得到足夠的保障因為大家最關心的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3498.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3524.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
新資待遇會不會比現在更好那如何能夠有這個可能性就是說林宜瑾的文字也保留未來有正式化的空間嘛那現狀還做不到的時候那如果我們的附帶訣跟他的搭配的話我至少個人是有被說服就是這條可以就是讓他通過但當然教育部也需要表達意見對這樣子的一個版本覺得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3528.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3551.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我個人覺得這個文字的話可以請教育部表達意見但是身為26年的諮商工作培育者我還是強調薪資的調整比什麼都重要我不在乎這些文字文字可能可以確定請教育部去看薪資的調整薪資的調整決定你人才的留任沒有這個東西其他講的都是空的這是我一向的原則好不好一向的原則文字的調整其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3557.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3564.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我對我個人來說的話教育部只要認為大體的方式特別是在第三項跟第四項的一個層面當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3566.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3584.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為是林一綺委員才剛剛提出來所以請教育部根據她的文字裡面再做一些本席利用這個時間我還是再一次的強調潘文忠部長我說實在的他在當初割喉案的時候他提到我都記得很清楚目前已經增加5,004名輔導老師600位專輔人員會針對中大型學校擴充專業輔導人力搭配薪資提升跟升遷的留任機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3595.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3625.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這都是前教育部長所提到的所以說呢薪資的提升跟留任計制本來就對全國第一線工作人員的最大的一個承諾我今天對於第四條來說我不覺得我需要我們是需要花時間在文字上面做一些的斟酌但是在於附帶決議裡面大家各自版本所提出的薪資的幾等的一個一個調升那個才是一個最實質上面對學對這些人員裡面最有幫助請教育部千萬不要迴避啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3631.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3660.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
先從文字上面來去說那在看這個文字的時候呢我還是要特別提到這個知府人力當中為什麼我一直強調薪資很重要因為當初的起薪就是很低本來就是非常錯誤的那這次的修法是在搏破網所以我覺得人事總署如果你每次都要提出解放你不要一直跟我說做不到做不到而是你只要去問嘛我先只問嘛第一線的人員你是不是要調薪嘛你告訴我一個事實嘛要不要調薪我覺得我講到這邊我都已經有點生氣了你到底要不要調薪你若然是是的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3661.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3682.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那你就應該在這個事的原則之上面去做出其他可以配套的一個方法而不是在文字上面跟其他的部分裡面完全沒有迂迴的來做這樣的一個處理本席今天已經提出了一個附帶決議比上次更加的一個完整我個人覺得這對於第一線的工作人員來說這完全是足以能夠讓他們覺得他們的工作是被尊重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3683.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3696.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以對我們來說的話我同意第四條裡面你不管在第四項、第三或第四項裡面像你們在文字上面你做修正但是附帶決議裡面的薪資今天一定務必要一定要有一個結果否則我們講別的都是假的好羅廷偉委員朝野我們有看到你的附帶決議齁那是不是就直接請教育部趕快回應我們一下了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3709.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3735.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
教育部教育部先從本文我們通常負責決定是從本文的條文剛剛林宜瑾委員已經特別提到第三項、第四項所以我們就會過來然後呢我剛剛已經提出來這幾天今天一定要作為一個討論那就是剛剛是我剛剛講這麼多是要給教育部一個時間因為剛剛那個那個整個文字是剛剛才呈現出來的好不好我們現在把它現在是有把它因為你們民進黨委員全部簽字嘛就表示你們對於你們每個人都有看得很仔細嗎都有看得很仔細 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3740.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3753.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
負貸決議很重要好了我們暫時目前為止先把這個本文的條文裡面做確認完之後我們就進入到負貸決議裡面的薪資的部分這部分是所有委員都非常關切的這部分還需要時間嗎還是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3764.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3791.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 可以 范議員因為我今天也簽一個跟薪資相關的附帶決議那我是希望說不管是昭緯柯真昭緯的附帶決議或是我的附帶決議我們的附帶決議要通過的話林宜瑾委員這個修正的動議才有意義啦那所以就是說我是希望說能夠一起通過要不然的話我們就希望能夠再協商這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3792.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3793.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3808.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3809.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3827.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3854.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那因為教育部還在考慮這部分我就不浪費時間說明一下我的附帶決議那我的部分是希望說如果是常設性的任務編組的話專府人員任主任督導應該要提升續薪以原薪點平移淨等再進一階起薪那最高至九等六階主任應在於以現行之計畫主持人費用那第二點若輔資中心正式化 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3854.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3876.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
於下列方式至少擇一聘之以鼓勵專府人員久任升遷亦利於中心政治化之銜接沿用主任督導依照《一事人員人事條例》以師三級本諷加專業家級並有年功諷等待遇才繼其年資起聘之二、專府人員擔任主任督導者 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3877.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3901.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
比照高中以下各級學校主任組長方式給予職務加緊不低於公立中等以下學校教師及幼兒園教保服務人員信任一覽表的主任7520元、組長5750元有鑒於目前督導回任專輔人員其年資未被採記不合理亦不利督導工作發展督導回任專輔人員時應採記其年資提敘 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3905.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3922.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
第三點我之前在討論的時候就有提到那因為他沒有辦法放在條文中所以我也希望放在附帶決議那這三點都應該在就是三個月內嚴明具體落實的方案並向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3924.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3940.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
委員范雲也非常確實提出該如何來提高薪資本人其實第四條到今天所提出來的附帶決議也請各位可以看一下因為現在教育部在對文字的部分怎麼樣文字部分可以確定嗎那我們還是以本文為優先請教育部部長還是次長部長好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3946.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3961.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝主席還有各位委員的關心我想我們的方向都是一致的只是因為在第四條的第二項裡面它已經就明文說高級中等以下學校主管機關因涉學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3961.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3962.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3983.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
4001.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我這一個具體的建議是不是說謝謝林宜瑾委員所提出來是不是在第四項這一個部分就不需要再特別針對說要長設性組織因為說不定也有哪一個地方縣市他覺得他可以設編制內從地制法裡面去來針對這一個機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
4007.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4019.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那另外最後一項等於說最後一項降低人員離職率是不是可以考慮這個刪去因為從第三行的提升專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4022.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4040.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
提升專業及任職意願從正面表列因為提升任職意願已經等於就是另外一方面就是那個降低離職率了嘛所以從這個裡面這樣的一個文字就法律上來講我們盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4042.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4067.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
從正面表列的這樣一個精神來看是不是可以這樣是不是適當請主席還有我們各委員參與考量好 所以說我們根據林宜瑾委員的部分來說本條所稱學生輔導諮商中以常設性任務編組為原則這句話就徹底把它去掉這一項全部把它去掉 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4068.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4097.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好了,把第三項去掉,然後在第四項的部分的衛力學生輔導諮商中心運作降低人員離職率去掉,然後就直接進入到提升專業者任職意願等等之類的,是這樣子嗎?好不好,那是不是誰可以把文字?這來為極啦極,好,OK,極專業這後面,後面才會可以鋪陳我們對這個學薪資待遇上,我想我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4098.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4098.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4117.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4136.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
其實大家討論過就很知道吧我們其實附帶決議第四條的附帶決議還有第十一條的有關於不管五十五班到四十班二十校十五校這些討論完畢就是它就是整個我們立法的這一次最大的主軸嘛 對不對雖然只有八條但事實上真的很需要被用力討論但是兩條嘛來我們請我們因為我們現在打字啊還沒請到委員在這個時候需要有意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4157.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4173.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們請教育部相關單元或人總針對我跟范雲委員所提出的附帶決議裡面有關薪資的建議請仔細看一下等一下提出來流動大家來一起來做一些參考好不好這樣比較快速 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4184.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4201.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4209.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4212.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
新資部分有人看嗎?有人在做處理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4224.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4226.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
提升專業及任職意願同時供應學生完備之輔導資商管道各級主管機關皆應寬列預算並逐年由中央主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4249.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4258.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
會商直轄市縣市主管機關檢討並調整運行策略以符本向意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4274.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4296.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
同時提供學生完備這樣可以嗎?好 可以 我們在條文上面我來呼應一下 這條文是我們是要來提升專業者專業及任職意願我們就來看看我們的附帶決議的提升意願很重要的就是薪資真的不要以為助人公主都在做功德了沒有這種事了 好不好他們能夠到第一線去幫大家來做輔導本身就已經在做功德了 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4304.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4329.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
來我們來看一下負債決議我們剛剛討論了這個部分是請誰對於負債決議因為我們剛剛已經特別提到我們要同樣的要會同嘛對不對我們剛剛已經提到了我們同樣要會同人總嘛主計處嘛共同演繹來人總跟主計處誰可以來對於我們所提出的負債決議的薪資加給的部分提出建議夫人之長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4335.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4335.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
來 麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4347.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4366.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
主席跟委員各位先進那我簡單報告一下第一個就是說如果說我們這個輔導中線人員是正式公務人員的話自然他的待遇就進入到正式公務人員的條件去處理所以可以不必在這邊另外去做處理那另外這邊有提到就是我先針對那個柯委的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4367.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4388.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
公務人員這個就可以不用處理了好不好政治公務人員吵了好幾天了接下來就是說我們在那個我先談先報告柯委員這個公號1的這個部分跟公號第一點跟第二點部分因為我們現在有福島中心設置辦法這是教育部主管的法令那這個部分會涉及到跟衛福部目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4389.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4417.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
社工人員之間待遇的這個橫評那這邊的意見當然未來是作為我們的討論所參考的使用那第三點的部分因為保護性社工這個是目前是最高但是它所面臨的那個第一線的工作環境是當初是有特別不一樣所以才有特別另外這樣的處理那如果這邊把一般學校的輔導的部分提高到跟保護性社工一樣相對的保護性社工這邊所面臨的第一個職場的環境它是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4417.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4439.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以這邊會也需要跟衛福部這邊在一起來討論那第三個第四點部分要回認的部分因為回認部分這部分因為是剛剛有提到因為他們是約聘用人員本來就是在新典責任率上面去做處理所以我們建議這個第四點這部分這個是可以把它拿掉不要不需要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4440.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4465.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
第五點因為證照部本來我們擔任輔導的時候上次我就跟林報告過他本來就是有專業證照那衛福部這個補助民間單位的這個計畫因為衛福部這個計畫補助明年他未必是有專業證照所以當初為了鼓勵這些人去取得專業證照所以衛福部才會有這樣的方案說給他提高新點 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4466.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4490.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
或是鼓勵你如果進入因為你沒有專業證照所以我們就鼓勵你雖然已經在民間擔任這個工作所以我們希望你取得專業證照但我們學校這不一樣因為我們學校這本來你進來就要有專業證照這個前提已經擺在這個地方上所以這兩個的立法本意是不太一樣我就在上次有做一個報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4490.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4508.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這次的部分完全沒有辦法說服我特別請教一下特別是在有證照的部分在有證照的部分當然是這樣就像我到我的學校去任教我有博士資格可是他在我因為我有博士資格他還是每個人進去大學就都有博士資格可是學校還是因為你有博士資格還是給你額外因為他們認為給你的薪資很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4510.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4530.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
就這樣那你的社工證我覺得我上次也特別反應過了我覺得每次拿資輔裡面都要拿社工來綁標然後就因為社工人員社工人員本來的薪資你們本來就給人家非常的低的這個部分你現在對這些資輔人員來說的話本來你給人家的部分是在地下室我講個舉例來說你本來是在地下室你現在把他從你不能從一樓開始給他起薪嗎所以說你不能拿過去已經是一個錯誤的這是我不斷的提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4538.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4562.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以政造你這個理由不是不是這樣子政造即使你32新點對於目前來說所有已經具有政造的人來說他這樣子的一個增加還是有他的必要性因為他們過去有政造這些人你給他是低於樓地板的一層樓地下室現在只不過是希望能夠變成從一樓來開始來做這樣的一個討論所以不是有沒有政造的這個問題就誠如我剛剛所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4564.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4574.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
每個人進到學校當教授都有博士學位但是博士學位還是有我們的學術佳績啊所以不是因為你有才給你聽起來本來就是需要這個資格所以這樣的條文還有你特別提到的還是一句話每一次都是用我們社工人員如何所以我們的這個資輔人力就必須要跟他一樣才有一個橫頻的效果社工你已經給人家很低了我想在場的每個人都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4591.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4620.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以我今天不能用這個方法來討論我們這個薪資這是本人要再次提到的好 委員我跟您報告一下就是說剛剛我們就已經提到前面就是要由教育部、衛福部大家會一起討 一起來原商嘛對對那接下來就是說因為我們這邊如果是直接去用那個新點加我們目前這些人用的那個新點表會變成它原來的新點表就不是你會你加進去的新點會不等於現在的新點表上面的這個部分所以我們才不建議因為譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4621.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4623.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
請問我們在今天協商之前是不是你們就應該跟衛福部有一些討論?現在有共同討論嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4643.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4670.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
教育部不好意思部長我們提到薪資我說是重中之重所以這個東西人總要會同教育部跟這個所謂的教育部一起討論請問你們有事前討論嗎為什麼到現在為止還是告訴我還要再會同衛福部啊不是就已經說我們今天要討論這個議題的嗎你們到底有沒有會同衛福部啊沒有的話我們這邊坐在這邊所有的委員坐在這邊一排坐在這邊我們眼睜睜看你們不是白搭嗎這鞋子衝啥各位委員呼應一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4673.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4699.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
難怪剛剛會說要保留因為就感覺沒辦法我們上一禮拜就是以這個東西為重中之重你們告訴我要是人種還有主機處、衛福部不是大家都一同討論嗎那我們倒是因為你告訴我還要繼續討論那你把我們這些委員當潘啦我們先休息十分鐘休息五分鐘好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4702.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4727.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席是把它列在互代決議然後我們根據這個去我們事實上私底下是有討論的那討論的結果呢我們今天不是要把它提出來我們今天就是要討論這些啊你可以範圍的部分任何誰的版本都可以但是你起碼要告訴我你們大家都覺得流行很重要啊那你們到底討論的結果是怎麼做要告訴我們一下吧有啦這一個問題但是現在要怎麼改觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4730.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4736.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這本獎是典軌說今天要協商 典軌說今天要協商就是讓每個黨員、各部會都可以有你協商版本就對了 我今天坐在這裡你還跟我說還跟別人說還沒討論也沒協商 他們真的會花費 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4761.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4762.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
蔣麗玉議員蔣麗玉議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4779.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4780.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
來 等一下 休息時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4801.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4804.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4821.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4843.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4846.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4874.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
審查委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正� |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4876.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4881.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
立法院朝野黨團協商：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4891.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4906.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4907.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4919.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4929.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4939.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4955.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4964.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4968.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4989.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
委員林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4990.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5009.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
審查委員范雲等17人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5010.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5031.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5034.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5039.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5058.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5085.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
審查委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5087.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5108.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5108.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5115.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商： |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5131.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5131.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5159.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5180.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這本席就是強力的希望能夠在還是一句話吧薪資的提升是最實際的如果薪資沒有辦法提升我說實在我們修這一步法還是留有非常多的遺憾我們都很難面對江東復老了來啦 部長這附帶決議不管是柯真委員提出來或是范雲委員提出來的教育部請給一個說法好不好會總監 會總監 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5187.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5212.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
謝謝主席我想我們事實上跨黨派對這一個怎麼樣是確保我們這一些辛苦人力辛苦人員他們專業而且能夠有更高的一個留職意願來協助我們學校來推動學生的心理輔導有一個更好的一個支持力量我想我們會後我願意來 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5215.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5215.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
陳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5230.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5256.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我覺得我還是要說一下啦就是在學復法的過程當中我真的很感謝昭緯也一直echo我的辦公室的討論可是我當然也支持這些現場的同仁們可是我現在想要問的是提高新典折合率這件事情的算法我們其實剛剛在聽任總這邊說明的時候我真的還是沒有很清楚當然我知道現場的困境真的很大所以剛剛部長的回應也真的很感謝那只是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5258.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5278.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
除了這個新點折合率之外另外第四點督導回認年資問題這個我認同跟職務加給就是再把職務加給的部分所以我覺得今天這一張附帶決議裡面有太多太多的細節真的要請那個算錢的算人員的拜託給我們更專業的建議好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5281.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5308.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
年資是可以算啦但是加級因為他既然沒有當督導就沒有加級就像我們今天師長如果他不再當主管他同職等變成督學他事實上就沒有主管加級所以這一個部分我想督導回任的年資這個年資應該納進去我覺得這是合理但是他因為回任以後回任為這個一般的這個辛苦人員他當然就沒有所謂的職務加級 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5310.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5335.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這跟他的任務跟他的職責是有關聯的但他起碼在當督導的那一段的年資本來就是本來就給他併入才對嘛要好不好所以因為這個部分是加薪資事體大所以呢因為我們好所以部長有承可是部長你剛剛的說法是你承諾會努力的爭取所以意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5336.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5339.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
也有可能還是回歸到原點 爭取沒有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5345.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5366.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
來 可不可以回應一下等一下部長要回應那我可不可以順便問另外一個問題也是在教委的版本裡面第五點教委擬停了兩個方案一個是方案一參考衛福部第二個是參考國內大專院校我覺得這個事情是不是也還是要請你們說明一下就是這兩個方案的優缺點或者是更適合現場的實務狀況因為剛剛教委也提醒了還有地方政府經費的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5368.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5377.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
大縣市的問題就是他會花很多錢小的縣市他搞不好就是補不足這樣的人那一併的考慮下我們其實需要更多意見讓我們知道好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5381.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5393.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
因為我個人覺得啦裴育委員雖然很謝謝你會仔細的看我們這個部分啦不過現在卡在前的部分裡面當中因為我們我跟范育委員其實都提的還蠻細節的我覺得這種併的方法把我們這兩個附帶決議室一併帶回去四個單位共同來我現在還是要請 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5400.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5425.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
佈長回應我剛剛所提到的大家對於這樣一個薪資的調整都認為它是留任一個非常重要的一個關鍵那部長也願意去努力那我剛剛只是多問了一句如果行政院還是以他們自己的預算經費的一個限制沒有辦法達到任何的一個結果的話是不是這樣子的部分我們又是回到一個原點還是部長在此時此刻其實可以給在場所有的第一線的助人工作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5426.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5436.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
一些可以讓他們覺得我們有正在幫他們爭取的這樣子的一些的隻字片語可以嗎還是還是得回去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5439.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5467.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我想這個額度不曉得啦我不敢我還是要從政府的整體的一個總體這個財政這個來看但是朝這一個加薪的那個方向是我們努力的而且我希望應該大家都既然大家的心念功都有很高的一個共識我認為我是樂觀的那至於督導回任年資那個我覺得是合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5470.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5494.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
就是樂觀的操作部長樂觀的操作型定義好不好舉例來說從4400多加到4這個叫操作型定義好不好部長你是樂觀的其實不用論我對薪資的結構我真的比較外行因為朝我們的理想絕對不會讓我們太失望對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5497.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5523.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我想歡迎委員已經講我不會讓各位失望的謝謝那因為薪資的部分我們因為還是要因為我還是要特別跟大家說一下因為薪資的部分還是需要有我們還是需要這四個單位共同來嚴寧啦但是我再一次的呼籲社工人員我們還是要尊重還是要給人家在薪資的值等上面他們所遭遇的處境其實是相當的一個辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5523.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5551.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
但是呢不能因為社工人員已經大家已經很對不起他了然後資輔人員因為不想讓社工人員覺得有相對剝奪感所以把資輔人員的這個薪資也跟著要扯平我覺得這樣的概念是完全是不能夠接受的我們就責成在我們的附帶決有關薪資的部分留給我們教育部部長來做一個統合在我們八月的臨時會當中我們在一次的協商的時候我們就一定具體的把它提出來這樣可不可以那我們是不是可以先通過第四條的我們的條文好不好第四條的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5552.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5554.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
委員林宜瑾等18人擬具第十一條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5573.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5600.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
還有范雲委員你就有三個好不好還有葛如君委員還有林彥秀委員柯真委員剛剛你說已經保留了這是誰范雲委員還有范雲委員你有四個好不好范雲委員認為可以一起保留好不好好那我們就所有的附帶決決一起保留謝謝來我們進入到第五條第五條我們把第五條上次的第五條把它拿出來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5601.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5605.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
各位第五條完之後其實就最後就是第十一條比較重要第五條沒有我們先討論第五條我們上那個什麼第五條的我們當初的保留誰可以幫我回一下那個職能治療師職能治療師好我們藍綠各有人非常為職能治療師在發聲好啦來來那個羅廷偉委員跟張雅琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5631.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5656.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好 謝謝趙偉我想學生輔導諮詢會相關人員我希望還是能夠增加職能治療師那我再次表達學生輔導諮詢相關人員應該正面表列我個人比較沒辦法接受那教育部說這個職能治療師屬於這個身體上的一個附件那我要跟大家分享身體上的附件就我所知道台中市市有所謂的物理治療師 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5657.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5658.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5679.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5680.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5694.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5712.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
張雅琳委員講完說我們請衛福部也一起來回應一下好那我也是希望幫職能治療師爭取因為我過去長期的跟職能治療師一起在合作那其實他們並不是只有在做身體的部分其實他們的養成訓練跟現場的實務上面其實都做非常多的心理的部分心理 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5715.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5741.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
在這個領域已經有跟特殊教育的合作其實已經有一個非常長遠的歷史那所以呢因為我自己在現場我也看到很多小孩子他們其實是還沒有得到特教生的鑑定資格或者是因為受限於家長不讓他們去鑑定而早生他一直無法以特教的身份來去取得相關的資源所以我還是希望這些造成困擾的小孩呢我還是希望我們可以在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5743.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5752.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
現在的相關專業人員裡面上去列上職能治療師來讓所有的小孩可以得到更多的支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5753.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5776.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好 謝謝陳佩玉委員好 謝謝主席關於職能治療師的部分確實我們知道在現場的職務可能如果他進入學服部法的概念就會是當學生沒有被發現他可能有輔導的困境他可能是因著別的生理因素而產生的困境所以呢我猜想雅琳委員或者是羅廷委員的建議是希望一併把職能治療師邀請進來在這個團隊裡面討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5779.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5801.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
可是我其實想要回到專業的角度來請教教育部因為我們之前在修特教法的時候其實有意識到這個事情那我們自己後來在看學復法的時候我們也問過教育部關於特教生的心輔資源這件事情它到底是比較多的概念是落在所謂特教老師還是三級輔導機制這件事情到底那個先後的順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5802.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5808.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我們當然知道很多事情它不是看先後順序可是問題是在實務的現場它就會有先後順序的倫理要處理所以我可不可以拜託教育部在這個部分先做回應先不是說要不要放的問題而是目前你們所收集到現場的實務狀態大概會是什麼好 謝謝好 那我們請還有范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5829.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5839.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
關於職能治療師的部分因為他們的相關協會也有跟我們反映說事實上輔導業務常常會涉及到需要職能治療師的儲育性輔導的時候至少應該讓地方能夠聘請職能治療師的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5844.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5867.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以我是支持在輔助中心輔導業務涉及的時候就是應該要能夠找他們那所以到底是直接明文就放在我們的跟其他的相關專員包括臨床心理師這樣還是說錢款以外之學的專家明白指出說包括例如職能治療師等這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5868.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5868.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5888.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5888.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5916.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5936.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
學生輔導法第六條第二項第三款對於處遇性的輔導的內涵以及所提供的服務已經說得很清楚因為處遇性的輔導最重要的是要提供整合性的服務整合哪些整合各類的資源跟各類的專業服務那當然職能治療也是其中一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5937.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5937.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
佛智慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5961.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5975.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5985.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5986.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6012.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6015.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
佳談或諮商需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6022.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6048.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
在先後順序上應該是先輔導的尤其是在學習障礙跟情緒障礙來講都會需要先經由學校一般性的輔導一段時間並且做成觀察的紀錄之後憑藉著這些輔導的措施以及觀察的紀錄提報申請鑑定鑑定通過之後他才能取得特教生的身份進而由特教老師來提供特教服務不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6049.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6068.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為鑑定相對嚴謹也有可能在輔導一段期間觀察紀錄等等還不足以判斷他的身份很可能也會鑑定他為疑似學生那疑似生這一塊在目前國教署的規劃是已經允許由特教來提供協助了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6068.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6084.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
當然是很期待在服務的過程更嚴謹的收集資料幫助他取得身份並且能夠很正式的納入特教的一個服務的範疇我先做這樣以上說明等一下等一下你剛剛是把職能製造師放到哪裡對不起我剛剛你的訊息太多你把它放到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6085.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6097.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
第二款 前款以外知識專家然後你會在立法說明裡面把這些你相關的包括職能治療師跟其他的部分包括家庭輔導包括法律服務等等的相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6099.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6099.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
處遇性輔導會連結各類資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6123.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6140.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
有關委員問到職能治療這一塊職能治療在精神衛生裡面是相關專業至於說要不要把職能治療是納入這個就是在爐裂在這個諮詢會的人員上面這個我們尊重主管機關教育部的意見謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6151.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6166.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
就是因為教育部需要你們的專業意見他們當然有他們現場在輔導現場但是他們更需要你們告訴他們你們就職能治療師過往的工作經驗也許有一些狀況可以跟教育部分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6167.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6194.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
因為當然司長他現在的寫法是給了一個解方可是我也說說不確定雅琳委員跟廷文委員是不是可以接受這個寫法所以而且我相信我們一般人遇到職能治療師的狀態怎麼樣可能在學校現場是比輔導老師少很多那少很多的原因是因為過往沒有機會邀請他們所以少很多還是因為真的不需要所以少很多所以可不可以就你們的專業告訴我們更多意見好嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6196.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6206.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
呃不好意思我補充一下請問一下您是新建師的代表嗎?對不對?那會不會是因為要醫師師才比較能夠回答這一題?對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6214.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6229.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對所以我怕說不同師會不會沒辦法回答但是我還是希望你能夠說明不要只是我們委員在幫他們講話我們希望有衛福部來幫忙認定他的一個代表性或他的職能上能夠協助到的真正幫助到的他的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6231.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6258.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
各位委員報告就是說剛剛我提到從我們精神衛生的角度來看職能治療師確實是我們精神衛生裡面就是專業的一環專業人員的一環那我覺得是說就是回到這個法條我們在成立這樣的一個諮詢會裡面教育部在成立這樣的一個諮詢會裡面它的一個目的那去衡量說這樣的一個職能治療師是不是要如列在你們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6259.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6273.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6279.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6279.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6305.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6328.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那其他的你需要把它列在那個第一款相關專業人員我也是想要呼應這一點就是說因為畢竟他就是精神衛生這可能過去大家並不是那麼熟悉啦所以可能並不會去找他但事實上他們的確在很多的時候是協助了很多孩子在去做這些相關的心理輔導的工作所以還是希望可以在第一個第一項裡面呢就把職能治療師給列入謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6330.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6353.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
因為如果衛福部都這樣說了我們還不把它列入那我們怎麼會把精神健康這個部分可以一起來溝通討論的特別把它摒除負面表列我覺得很奇怪所以這個部分來誰這個部分我常常對薪資比較有意見其他我都沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6358.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6382.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
因為第一項看起來都是臨床心理、諮商心理、社會工作室及精神科醫生那如果我們在第二項後面不要放在那個說明文字直接說前款以外之學者、專家、痘號包括職能治療師等呢這樣會不會這個地位就更明確然後也不會感覺上排擠到第一項的人員的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6384.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6391.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為大家都希望能夠有更好的身份一起來貢獻這一塊嘛都是正面的來 最後一步可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6392.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6419.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我還是想要支持在第一項教育部也可以在不過我們說實在在我們自己在這個在真的第一線的工作上面的確就是他所條列的臨床諮商社工跟精神這四個大項是我們一般所對準的一個直接的一個對象這是事實這絕對是事實了因為我後面還有太多太多所以他才特別用第二這叫款嗎對不起我也同樣地問 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6419.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6431.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以才會在第二款之外把一些額外的部分把它做條列不過這一點我們不堅持我們教育部的意見因為有這麼堅持嗎教育部不好意思因為這是對象的問題教育部比較簡單的方式來說第一款是主力學生輔導的主力就是靠這四類人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6448.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6467.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
對 那職能治療、家庭輔導或者法律服務他其實是站在後面第二線支援的就是當我前面這四類我覺得他的有些問題我沒辦法處理我需要外面的人進來支援他才會拉到第二線去啦所以如果要放在第二款如同剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6469.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6472.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
委員范雲等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6490.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6510.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我剛剛那個問題司長沒有回應我耶就是說第二項到底就是我們所講的這些相關專業人員裡面組成上有沒有專輔人員因為你那個部分如果是臨床心理師、資深心理師等等但他都沒有參加到學校的專輔人員的話這個部分是不是可以說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6512.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6523.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
請說我先說其實在第一款的心理師設公司其實就包含在裡面的你當然也可以聘你的輔治中心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6524.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6552.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
主任或者是督導當然可以拚但你覺得我可能需要更師傅級的把專家他就第一項了通常我們都認為這種比較屬於事務層級他可能是工作小組的他不會是放在諮詢委員會裡面的以上說明能不能在那個說明欄裡面讓那個學校的那個輔助中心的人也會有參與的代表在裡面好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6553.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6553.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
請衛福部來回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6574.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6594.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我來回應好了啦通常我所以學校在我們的實務工作現場當中他們第一款所提到的這個相關專業人員來說我們完全沒有否定職能治療師的一個專業這絕對是個事實但是在我們的group大家一起來工作的話的確臨床諮商社工跟精神這四款通常就是我們主軸的一個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6595.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6596.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6625.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6625.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
佳玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6653.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6657.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
教育輔導、心理、犯罪防治、職能治療或藝術治療等相關學者專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6667.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6681.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是 不好意思沒有辦法了啦 那個廷偉我講完就好了你可以 好感謝所有台中職能治療協會感謝羅廷偉委員為他們大力的支持因為沒有放進去都是因為其他委員認為在立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6682.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6684.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6707.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6724.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這次感謝張雅琳委員跟羅廷偉委員作為會議記錄他們從第一次到現在每一天都為職能治療師來做最強力的發言我們都感受到了所以我們一定你還可以好了還有個方式啦我們可以把那個職能治療藝術的往前放這樣好不好在裡面幫你有 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6725.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6725.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6747.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6769.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我幫兩位委員問一下既然都要寫進立法說明了在相關的實務上通常寫進立法說明學校或者是主管機關在組成這個學生輔導諮詢會的時候他們就有機會有這個法源依據可以邀請嗎那會有什麼實務上的困難讓兩位委員知道一下好不好實務上會有什麼困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6771.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6797.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
讓他們原本想要照顧的團體的意見在實際的執行上可能會有遇到什麼樣的困難?除了張偉剛說的過往的工作慣性這個我們都可以理解會有什麼樣的困難嗎?如果沒有就說沒有這樣兩位委員就比較放心我先說因為前面講的那個諮商心理師、臨床心理師、設公司跟計程可以支持主力 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6798.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6822.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
他一定是介入性輔導到一個程度進入到處遇性的時候這個還是有特殊的需求他會依照學生的需求去整合服務所以那個部分就是依學生的需求那你可以理解嗎我們的輔資會定期開會很有可能這次討論談不到職能治療下一次談 談不到職能治療我想各位可以理解我講的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6823.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6852.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有學生的問題因為他們討論的會從政策輔導政策規劃資源配置整體討論可是如果你沒有察覺有特殊的問題他就不會討論到職能治療的問題那那個人他來他只能對於我們的輔導工作有整體的理解一下參與過程給意見可是他不一定能討論到職能治療的議題我覺得這是事務上的限制若各委員都已經充分表達意見我們事務第五條就修正完通過謝謝那我們七支一條是陳培宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6856.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6866.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
被點名我已經講很多了可不可以直接通過就好我認真再講一次就是那個自殺死因回溯的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6869.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6888.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們後來回去重新研究過了我們知道司長上次有講到說學校有那個相關的自殺死因的填報有那個校安事件可是現在實務現場是很多簡單的填一填還有就是他目前都是一個case一個case在填他基本上假設我 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6888.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6889.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6904.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6904.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6918.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6934.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
自殺或自殺未遂嚴重自我傷害個案的回顧調查研究公布研究報告把這個研究報告作為後續制定相關政策甚至作為這次學復法修法完之後所有在現場工作的老師們很重要的依據跟參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6936.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6959.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那因為我認為我現在的七之一它不涉及組織的設立也不涉及人事的安排其實沒有動用到所謂人事相關的規範應該不會要讓人種或是族種再跑出來這樣所以到底現在的困難是不能還是不願意還是說到底還有什麼困難的地方是我們所沒有設想到的那還是要請教育部回應 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6961.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6973.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好 教育部然後呢我特別附帶剛剛沒有提到的七之一部分我們還有范雲委員跟張雅琳委員所提出的修正動議還有陳培余的附帶決議好吧 我們一併來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6976.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6988.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好 針對第七條之一我先做補充其實布里頭這幾年因為感受到自殺通報的數量增加很重視這個議題所以我們在111年的時候曾經檢討過我們的各級學校的自殺防... |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6997.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7021.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
全自我傷害的三級預防工作計畫其實經過很懇切的檢討花了半年多的時間委託亞洲大學的科副校長然後也邀請很多學生提供意見所以已經完成了那個工作計畫的修訂在這個工作計畫當中修訂有一個很重要的精神就是針對每一個不幸的個案後面因為輔導人員在過程當中會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7024.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7025.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7038.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7039.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7068.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7069.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7093.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7108.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那當然我覺得這塊就是運作上確實有相當程度的難度那尤其是在委員所提到的那個第七條之一的第二項是要把那個調查研究辦法置立成法規我們認為這個涉及專業的問題還有這個議題坦白講是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7113.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7140.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
相當充分的討論那我們是建議說能不能不要急著第七條之一就入法能允許我們因為培育委員有提了一個附帶決議那我們是希望能夠依照陳培育委員的附帶決議我們來配合辦理那我們也很誠懇的願意來做這件事情邀集包括學者專家還有輔導工作者來進一步的做討論我們確實需要藉由研究調查而且兼顧質與量 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7142.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7142.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7160.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7165.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
請問教育部會定期做一些相關研究嗎?在我的版本裡面並沒有第二項,那你覺得第一項的內容這樣是可以嗎?大家請教育部來回應陳菲玉委員還是范雲委員范雲委員先好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7191.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7211.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我本來是針對陳培委員的修正因為我覺得如果能夠加上就是對學生身心健康不利這個文字及知識統性因素逐年公佈去識別化之研究報告的話可能大家看到這個部分壓力就會小很多因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7212.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7227.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
衛福部對我講到說其實這一類的個案非常難做因為自殺被污名化遺族悲傷調適的歷程跟相關方法的問題因為之前我記得我們公聽會的時候衛福部的這個說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7229.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7251.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
很多相關學者專家都認為不是這個樣子這跟你的研究方法跟各方有關但這個其實是需要蠻多專業的討論所以我也不堅持一定要放在這最重要是說這個要做系統性的研究因為譬如說怡瑾跟我我們是念社會學的我們就覺得不一定要去觸及到個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7251.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7251.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7267.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7291.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我個人真的是覺得我們可以看一下這個培育委員的附帶決議我還是覺得7-1這個部分在我們討論學粉我自殺防治沒有人認為它絕對是重中之重但是應該去思考一下就是7-1有沒有必要把它放在正式的條文當中放在這一部法當中來做一個處理我覺得這位可能是等下教育部要表達一下意見的好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7292.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7307.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我們在討論的那個我們在討論的時候其實有講過這個我也覺得很重要所以我主張我以前在做那個兒少全法的時候其實是要求那個六歲以下做那個死嬰逐一回合對入法但是因為六歲以下的樣態是因為他沒辦法表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7307.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7308.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7323.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7345.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我想那個昭偉是學那個應該知道就是說他可能去遇到感情問題同儕問題老師問題或者各種問題那如果每個族裔都要去做研究的話那事實上也不是不行我覺得很重要嘛對不對但是曾經我就問他們說那為什麼不能做他說因為曾經有這個計畫做好之後錢準備好要發包沒有人要做就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7347.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7372.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那個你招標要招標嗎就是可能就是范雲委員講的就是說這類的案子在實務上你要去做研究的時候對很多家庭的個案那個已經是傷心事你再問我就拒絕所以它會有很多很難做的好那是不是就不能做那個因素的回顧呢死因因素的回顧呢是可以就是說它有一些其實在發生當下的時候其實已經有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7374.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7398.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有一些勾選或者做一些報告我是建議說那個報告可以再精進一點那將來可以拿那些東西來做一些那個因素的分析然後能夠從分析的因素裡面去找到可以預防的方式啦其實最近韓國他們也有這個問題韓國跟台灣的學生自殺率都很高他們最近也在訂一些計畫那希望3年後5年後能夠降低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7399.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7399.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
佩玉委員可以同意嗎?用附帶決議的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7428.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7443.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我情感上有所保留但理智上我可以同意所謂情感上有所保留的意思就是說其實剛剛張大次長講了一個很重要的原因就是韓國跟我們台灣一樣的那個困境其實剛剛兩位長官所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7445.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7462.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
其實用我的話講是一樣的就是我們其實大人都不知道原因那研究的方法我也認同它有系統性的回顧調查很好沒有一定要逐案所以我也如果要回到條文來看我沒有要堅持逐案然後相關的辦法本來在研究上它就會有各式各樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7463.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7486.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
典範可以去討論可以去做研究甚至如把不同跨學科的人邀請進來都是重要的但我還是認為如果不入法那我想要請問一下附帶決議我們當然知道它相關的效應是有的可是它也可能相對是薄弱的我想大家都非常清楚所以要求入法這件事情我只是覺得學輔法今年修完再一次修又不知之何日何月何日何年 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7487.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7495.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以如果我們更改一個寫法有沒有機會還是入法不要用附帶決議就是甚至參考范雲委員的版本我也覺得很OK我沒有一定要逐萬回顧研究這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7498.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7498.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7521.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7521.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
第十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7536.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7560.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
好了就還是在這個班級的這個層面當中啦大家都已經講說20班嘛對不對然後呢12班高級中學是沒有問題12班嘛然後呢國民中學還有大家在國民小學的這個部分裡面目前為止在第十條裡面有羅廷偉委員陳培鈺委員柯珍委員范雲委員特別提出來有沒有意見要表達的好林宜瑾委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7564.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7588.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
羅廷瑋委員第十條因為這次我們的條文在高中輔導老師的緣額沒有動上次范雲委員有提到一個關鍵就是兼任輔導主任應補足其他輔導人力的應聘緣額本席也認為說其實如果這所學校比較小 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7589.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7614.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那只有一個輔導老師專輔老師的話那一個專輔老師同時又擔任主任那恐怕會造成老師真的很忙那學生就會沒有被充分照顧到所以也會讓老師不願意去小校擔任專輔老師所以上次范雲我有建議說要看教育部怎麼樣調整或者是定到執法上那這部分等等請教育部說明好 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7619.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7619.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
國庭委委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7626.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7648.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
剛剛移情委員有說明的蠻清楚的那就是說因為我們上次第九條已經通過說輔導主管已由輔導專業優先嘛那所以原則上那邊應該是要優先喔那可是這個時候呢其實那個輔導人力他就會受到影響那我收到蠻多的第一線的輔導老師跟輔導主任的反應就真的需要這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7649.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7650.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7667.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7695.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
負責的班數人數等於就跟你表象上的這個東西就會受到蠻大的影響那這是第一個就是原本他的輔導的量能就會受影響那第二個其實這兩個工作其實也有一定的角色衝突啊比如你行政工作需要跨單位的協調那容易出現輔導個別協助關係的保密盈利那學生也會比較保留那另外就是家長也會質疑說輔導主任為什麼不能夠用主任身份幫他的小孩爭取權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7696.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7696.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7722.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7723.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
委員陳佩玉等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7739.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7758.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我覺得現在其實很多的一線的我們這個輔導的老師其實他們最擔心的就是8月1號之後其實是新學期的開始那如果以現行的這個班級數如果真的有下降的話其實他們最擔心的就是自己的工作會不會變動這個部分其實我要幫很多一線的這個輔導人員來稍微問一下這個部分 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7759.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7759.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
郭文貴議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7774.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7795.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
平常高中跟國中是沒有問題可是完全中學他們是一體適用的對不對但是你現在目前為止你的主任通常都要專輔人員嘛對不對但是很多國中的時候你如果說他是完全中學的話那國中的主任可能也要受這樣的一個限制但是目前以現實環境來說很多國中的老師他是輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7796.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7797.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7818.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7838.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
佛島主任是一定要是專輔的這樣子的一個背景但是國中的時候並沒有這樣子那你如果說是完全中學的話那你完全中學裡面的國中部也要比照高中部啊那這對他們來說其實會造成一些的困擾如果你不是完全中學沒有這個困擾完全中學就有這個困擾那這是從高級中等教育法裡面要來做一個修法順帶提出來謝謝還有沒有額外的問題沒有我們就請那個陳佩玉委員好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7846.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7870.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好 謝謝主席我想要問一下就是關於從24班就是變20班這件事情我們當然很肯定行政院這邊的調整但是我想要問一下目前我們之前那天的算法是說2088人嘛缺口對不對好 那如果把范雲委員剛剛建議放進來就是他們被抓去當行政的時候我們就要再把人力補上會變成2400人的缺口嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7872.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7882.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
如果是的話利益良好但是還是要拜託教育部再積極推動那個人力補上來這件事情目前的工作規劃進度又會是什麼這樣好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7889.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7906.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
相對而言也有陳培宇委員的附帶決議是不是可以統一一起來去做這樣處理其實就是他剛所提到的嘛是不是可以請這個教育部根據這個附帶決議還是范雲委員他所提到的在這個所關切的問題是不是可以一併來做一個回應好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7921.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7921.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
郭中曉議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7928.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7955.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那還沒有講高中那高中的情況更嚴重因為這次我們修法高中的員額並沒有提升而且高中的輔導主管一定是主任輔導教師那他事實上也會吃12班一人的員額那根本沒有一班教師會有輔導專長來兼任的空間那所以那他如果去當主任的話那事實上這個工作量很龐大譬如說我們現在教育部有友善校園、自殺、自傷防治等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7955.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7976.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
而且不管學生規模每個學校的行政量都是差不多那實務上也不可能出現說讓所有專輔教師來分擔行政工作的情況所以這邊其實就會有衝突在人力的部分那真的很希望教育部還是可以考量這些狀況這一次就能夠一併改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7982.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8005.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我分成三點說明第一個我們的國小輔導老師通常都有兩個專長一個專長是一般教師可以當級任可以當科任因為國小是包辦制的嘛他是一般教師的身份第二個因為他有修了輔導第二專長的學分有加助輔導專長所以他也可以擔任專任輔導老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8008.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8033.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
國小的部分雙重資格國中也一樣國中的輔導老師他也是這樣他既是國中輔導活動課的老師他也可以擔任國中的專任輔導老師他也是雙重身份那我想高中有類似的問題這都是雙重因為他都被要求具有該階段的老師資格同時又有輔導專長雙重 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8035.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8047.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
如果他要兼任行政的話其實校內如果有職缺可以調整只要把他的職缺調整為一般課一般的老師或者調整為輔導活動課的老師他來擔任輔導主任的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8053.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8069.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為國教署定有那個擔任主任的授課時數對,他會減然後他的課自然會有其他老師幫忙分攤超終點處理掉了那換句話說他當他調整為一般老師的時候他專任輔導老師就缺就補出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8070.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8071.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8086.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8086.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8104.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8131.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
第二點就是高級中等學校比較特別是因為在高級中等教育法裡頭規定他的輔導主任必須要由高中的專任輔導老師來擔任那他被限制住了你知道嗎你只能是專任輔導師來兼任不像我們剛才國中國小是可以轉成一班老師再來對是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8133.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8159.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
因為完全中學是以上位階的學校來當配置的它是以高級終點教育法來任用所以有同樣的問題那我想這一塊等一下看國教署是不是有一些想法可以來處理因為一般老師擔任他就是你超售課終點費嘛給錢他就超中其他班那這一塊就是他可能需要增加的是輔導資源那這個和國教署可不可以補充對 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8162.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8163.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8170.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8197.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
謝謝趙薇跟各位委員的提問剛才吳司長其實大體上都講得非常的清楚那現在就是可能有一些面臨的困境怎麼幫忙一起來處理首先先講兼主任就是幾位委員再來是趙薇講到完中兼主任這個剛才剛好范雲委員提到了一個詞那個詞很特別您剛才講到主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8198.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8199.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
主任專輔教師 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8215.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8241.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
就跟教官一樣有主教他基本上去完成該校這一類的工作所以當時立法委員們的設計就有這樣只是說主任專輔教授好像出現了這個那跟主任跟輔導主任會不會又怎麼樣所以把它變成叫輔導主任因此只有他能夠去當輔導主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8243.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8265.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以在這個脈絡下當時的立法者很感謝剛好范雲委員提出這一段但是時事所趨103年、102年的背景到現在10年後有沒有更要小心現在老師的處境學生的需求這個是不是給我們一點時間雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8267.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8269.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
至於國中小的部分那個兼任基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8291.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8316.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
有三個縣市左右他是沒有辦法去換鬼來考主任以國民教育法的國中小主任他一定經過甄選處訓所以他一開始就不讓他來考所以他要去兼也不行所以有三個縣市不會發生委員講的問題因為他跑不過來主任鬼 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8317.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8335.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
大概有三個以上的縣市 這要查有很多現在的確會有委員講的這個情況但是實務上他們還是會先找一般這邊因為輔導老師的資源已經很少也跟各位委員報告我查了一下 有一千位老師他因為具有雙證嘛他就到了這個一般老師這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8343.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8361.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
其實培育委員也有提到這夠不夠有一千多位出頭一點他是跑到一班這邊屆時整體的運作他如果基於學校的安排有一些現在有些縣市在做這個甄選的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8362.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8362.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8377.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8379.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8407.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8418.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這一個專府人員那個 剛才也有當然郭委員所提 絕對不會 絕對不會全部都不會因為修法有任何的 不會因為它這樣而影響 不會因為班級數 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8423.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8434.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這個我們馬上會盤點一下因為法的方向蠻明確的我們馬上會掌握不要影響它不要在這個空窗當中7月30號就要重新7月30號是個截止時間的時候好不好因為這個修法的方式也蠻明確的我們馬上會做調查跟關心跟處置好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8442.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8461.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好,就麻煩給這些老師,現在真的是串在蛋上來,佩玉委員謝謝主席我要echo一下范雲委員剛剛那個事情可是因為署長剛剛回了一個說法,我有點疑問我3號記得這個東西現在已經沒有了主任專輔教師,我記得是沒有了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8463.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8477.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
她是源自於這裡啦主任專門教授現在已經沒有這個名詞了啦現在已經沒有這個名詞了那是久一些啦所以還是回歸到你們還是要回去盤點嗎好我想說怎麼會有這個回答好OK謝謝她是從盤古開天說起啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8479.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8501.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
第十條我們就是保留好不好再一次的保留因為既然新字都保留這一件就沒什麼好特別就保留那麻煩我們剛剛委員所提到意見麻煩帶回去我們下一次再來討論的時候就一定要更確實好了我們現在進入那也是一樣附帶決議那個陳培偉的附帶決議也是一貫保留了好不好可以來我們第十一條十一條討論完後面就那個了十一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8504.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8515.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
是一條最大的部分裡面就是我們用效的方法可是現在目前有很多助效的老師就引發非常大的焦慮他們還是很希望能夠把55班降為40班我們算出來55班能夠降為40班這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8521.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8523.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8549.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8566.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
教育部用了20校的這種說法那你用4500到5000這是用基點嘛 這點數嘛那這個點數跟這個助校來說的話大家還是 因為你如果用基點的話你可以讓大家不要能夠統籌來做一個分配嘛可是對很多大校對助校老師他很希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8567.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8595.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
不要被分配出去好不好這是個點這是你寫法的問題所以你要採取一個用20校的這種說法然後你用點數的這個說法那你如何保障有一些學校比較大的這些人他們這些駐校老師能夠因此就可以留下來我覺得這個是教育部必須要解決的好不好就是第十一條還有沒有我先說完完畢還有沒有還沒有要補充的好還要補充是吧我以為我已經補充很詳盡了來 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8597.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8625.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
來來來 林宜瑾委員 郭老師 范雲委員好 謝謝主席再次這個就是加強這個交委的這個這個這個版本 就是說其實每四十班以上應設置這個一名我覺得這個是參照像我的版本是參照學生衛生法因為我學生衛生法規定就是每四十班以上應設置這個營養師一人那學校護理人員也每校治醫人 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8626.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8645.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以我覺得還是請教育部要慎重考慮一下讓這個高級中等以下的學校班級數在40班以上的要設專業輔導人員一人那還有就是說高中以下學校主管機關若所匣的校數是15校以下的必須要設置一名的專業輔導人員我覺得這個是我們還蠻堅持的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8651.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8666.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我的意見也是跟兩位一樣第一個就是還是希望輔助中級專輔人比例可以下修到每15校1人那第二個就是大校剛剛昭偉也有講到大校助校的專輔人員我們專業團體真的認為非常的需要那所以這一點雖然上次JB有講你們的考慮希望統籌運用那可是真實狀況那真的還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8679.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8706.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
非常多專業團體的反應覺得應該要保留大校的駐校專輔人員我還有一個附帶決議是幫專科以上的學校講話希望說他們的薪資也是有提升的必要所以到時候如果我們薪資提升的時候希望也能夠處理專科以上學校專輔人員的薪資不過這個部分可能我們十一條要保留那就可以一起保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8706.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8707.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
陳培余委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8722.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8740.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
好可以認同前面幾位委員的發言齁我也希望呢這個部分教育部可以正面的回應來跟我們探討這個問題也希望今天這一條是不是能夠露出一些曙光齁不要是保留我們可以正面的就看到兩位的附帶決議齁我也個人覺得非常認同也希望朝這個方向來努力以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8743.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8765.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝羅廷文委員 文春生委員今天立法院很忙 其實包括很多委員會都在協商我也覺得我們教文非常努力 從早上協商到現在一片和諧 一片看著各個政黨 其實意見都很一致教育部好像問題都出在教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8766.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8767.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
臺灣民眾黨支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8781.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8781.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
《大少》55班 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8798.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8815.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
如果自己算沒有算錯55班是不是372那如果改成40班就變738那如果再往下那個人數又會是多少我覺得可不可以請教一部說明一下讓大家更心裡有數那而且如果大小條款通過然後改成40那總應聘人數的那個翻倍狀況又會是什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8817.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8844.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那另外剛剛那個移警委員有問我說科委員有一個科招委有一個第十一條附帶決議關於住校模式的事情我想要確認一下好免得我們搞錯這個所謂住校的那個專輔大校的住校他們的人力的算法是放在輔資中心只是被調派去學校嗎還是還是那個是學校額外自己聘請的因為如果他是從輔資中心調過去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8846.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8864.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那他不就又吃掉了輔資中心我們原本要回來的人嗎多要來的人嗎我不確定就是請你們算那個數字給我聽免得我們這個寫法造成了我們對於現場的不理解他到底是誰算誰的人算誰的緣額這樣因為我們好不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8865.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8865.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8878.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8878.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
佳麗娟議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8898.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8898.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8917.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8920.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8945.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8958.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
好 我想要針對就是前面有特別講到就是說那個高級中等以下的那個學校輔導的案量跟地理地區的一些特殊的一個情況然後就是在這個專業輔導人員的總數是6%的一個範圍之內包含這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8962.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8987.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那我想這個有沒有明確的一個規範因為包含我們知道在這個偏遠地區的一個學校院上次其實我也有講過就是我們總計這個學校的學校數是1205所那這個6%是不是有一個明確的規範還有他們的一個輔導安量還有那個地區的區域地理的區域的部分是不是能夠再更明確的定義一下會可能會比較清楚 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8991.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9005.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 其實我也是想要特別幫助校的輔導人員來去爭取一下因為他們其實其實有非常多的過去都有非常多的文獻去講助校模式的價值所以還是希望說在我們這次的修法版本還是可以去保留助校的這個模式 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9008.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9017.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
好 那我們是不是請教育部一併來做說明我知道你們利益良善啦然後大家也覺得你們已經有所了但是我還是認為那個 我說實話還是要回應到上次的20校改為15校也不過多了58人可不可以考慮一下 好不好好啦 來請司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9024.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9048.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好 首先說明現行的學生輔導法第十一條就有規定縣市主管機關的輔資中心是可以統籌調派主校的人員現行法就是這樣那實務上運作上六個直轄室裡頭有四個直轄室那個55禮拜他是派在 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9049.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9073.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
學校完全沒有統籌調度有統籌調度的只有臺中跟臺南兩個治轄市至於一般縣市政府統籌調度的情況非常普遍只有兩個縣市完全沒有統籌調度一個是宜蘭另外一個我記得是新竹沒有統籌調度其他的縣市都是統籌調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9075.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9090.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
福祉中心統統調度這件事情是目前相關還是普遍存在的那問題是在哪裡就是學校會覺得你那個人是跟你共用的你福祉中心是可以調走對於學校運用這個輔導人員就沒那麼好用 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9091.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9112.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以學校希望說你就把它切清楚吧學校希望切清楚專業輔導人也會覺得很辛苦因為我不只服務這個學校輔資中心隨時調度我我還要去支援別的學校從專輔人員的角度從學校的角度他都希望你專心在我這兒但抱歉就人力資源的運用跟整合來講確實由縣市政府的輔助統統是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9113.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9114.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
委員黃秀芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9123.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9151.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
多數都用心理師 社工師也有少數 但並不多再來就是剛剛柯趙偉所說的因為第十一條其實院版是已經經過很嚴謹的審核通過了要再去改變它是很困難的那我想布里頭在態度上也會希望能夠支持院版能採院版的方式那剛才那個裴育文有問數字的問題我先說明55班以上的學校目前有372校 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9154.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9160.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
若調降為40班以上,校數會倍增,變成738校,總共增加366所學校,比原本的55班以上需要幾乎兩倍若原本按照每20班設一個專輔人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9182.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9205.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
一目前的設置大概是200人左右那如果調成每15校設一人它的會增加大概63位左右所增加的人數相對比較少一點點那總而言之我們還是建議第十一條能夠採取院版那可不可以接受我的附帶決議讓駐校老師能夠稍微安心因為剛剛講的其實我剛剛講為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9208.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9234.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
大型的縣市或人力充足的縣市基本上是希望輔導人員是派駐在大型學校因為大型學校本身需求就比較高而且大型學校通常都在某些區域的地理中心為人口比較密集以它為中心點去調度支援鄰近學校其實是更就近的可以緊急狀況及時支援我想柯昭偉的附帶決議我們是支持的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9235.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9235.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9253.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9273.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
提會的討論的版本是不是就是讓他通過第十一條還有意見好來賴委員當然就是說如果最後真的爭取不到的話那我們怎麼來寫附帶決策討論啊可是我還是希望最後一步考慮一下就是說那個40分以上就能夠助校友專輔人員這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9273.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9296.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
就像剛剛司長講的嘛本來就有協調我們這一次修的它本來就有就是說跟輔助中心的一個協調的一個關係嘛那40班的學校就已經很多人了那為什麼不能夠有一個助校的那個專任專業的輔導人員那這部分我還是希望能夠爭取啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9296.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9317.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那當然就是說你們的版本就是那個20校1人然後我的版本是15校1人的那這部分剛剛有算出來說其實就是增加63個人嘛那當然就是說你說行政院那個我們能不能再爭取剛剛教育部長不是前面就有針對我們的期待他有說他努力再去爭取嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9318.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9318.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9338.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9357.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以我們要...好來郭昱晴委員沒有回答我的問題我剛剛說的那個就是根據那個地區還有輔導案量那個6%是不是可以更具體的一個明確的規範那這一塊是不是可以請國教署來協助做補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9362.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9364.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9381.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9384.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9409.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9409.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
委員黃秀芳等1 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9422.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9449.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
法過了以後會增加192人左右覺得含納得住現行的人嘛就不會動啊可是你如果一直講註效的話那個班級數我們就很不好去幫他了反而用十一條現在的文字原版模式我可以幫忙是為什麼我還沒談十一條要改成現在看到這個我會怕如果用我原來講的我就全部192一定可以吸納所有的人大概這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9450.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9457.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
不過目前為止比較好這樣好嗎就可以解決剛剛的問題以及用移來解決兩個模式會對打的問題大概這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9461.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9462.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9480.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9508.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
他到8月1號怎麼辦的問題我會請那個署長這邊就是發文跟他們講就是說這個目前修法會增加人力所以這部分暫時不會去動盪好不好好 那范委員的意見是怎麼樣還要條文還要繼續保留嗎我剛剛是基於院版裡面提出我的這個所謂附帶決議那你如果連院版裡面都有意見那就看教育部的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9510.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9510.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9536.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9559.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
剛才所提的20改成15並且同時是40班這件事那這樣不是58人對就不是了啦不是不是這樣就425人對不是各位委員各位委員現在是這樣子你55變40跟目前教育部的版本你兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9561.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9575.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
必須要選擇一個啦好不好但是剛才為什麼會有58出來是因為各位委員請看一下我以為齁因為原來召委所提的58那個數字齁是用11條但是微調那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9580.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9582.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
委員黃秀芳等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9605.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9608.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
主席我問最後一個問題就好了既然要保留了但是請幫我釐清在第幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9620.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9644.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好 就是第十一條的教育部提會版本你們有一個寫法說依照前兩項的規定所制的專業輔導人員應由高級中等以下學校主管機關統籌調派這個我沒有問題並得委由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或責定之學校聘用之目前實務狀況比較是什麼樣子或者是說它是給地方主管機關自己做選擇嗎還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9653.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9680.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我補充啦實務上因為很少縣市輔治中心是設在縣政府裡面很少因為空間真的有困難大部分都借用學校的場地那也因為借用場地學校場地的關係所以他的人員的聘任、差勤管理、預算執行也都會委託那個所在學校來執行了對對 他就是另外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9680.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9708.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 既然是保留了好 我現在對於保留我都覺得有點好 那怎麼樣第十一條我們就保留連附帶決議也一併保留好不好但我要跟各位委員報告十二條跟十一條是連動的那你十一條都已經是保留了那十二條要討論啥好吧 也就十二條就保留了好了沒有沒有沒有沒有 只剩下十七而已十七 十七跟十七之一好不好 就是陳佩玉委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9710.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9712.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
委員張雅琳等17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具17人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9733.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9757.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
17我直接說教育部一定有困難對討論過了 17要保留那我們今天是幹嘛我先看一下回復到今天的成果一下朝委至少推進一點我可以再回到剛剛那個立法說明嗎因為剛剛並沒有逐字確認我想要確認關於職能治療師的那一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9758.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9758.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
第五條 欸第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9776.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9801.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
看到沒有 各位看清楚兩位而且還把指導智能師我把它放到第一條了你看另第二款名定為前款以外之相關學者專家包含職能治療本來要從第五個序位現在變成第一序位兩位滿意了吧看清楚了 謝謝來來來 各位各位 謝謝兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9803.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9814.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我們那個還有個通案的附帶決議啊各位我們就看一下通案的附帶決議范雲委員、郭玉琴委員跟張雅琳委員來 最後一步看了嗎通案的附帶決議有嗎不是不是 額外額外我們這十一條就都是保留我們現在有個通案的附帶決議那麼請最後一步看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9829.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9855.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
有鑒於本法增定為成年學生同意下並經個案會議評估有需求時得本與兒少最佳利益不經家長同意進行輔導諮商之規定請教育部於本法通過後半年內與施行細則或相關執法或行政執引中明定不受心理施法限制之例外情形違和並加強與家長之宣傳溝通以減少公眾對心智之疑慮OK嗎OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9859.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9881.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
好來我們協商的結論在各位協商結論協商結論我們不能只確定職能治療這四個字就變成我們協商決議沒這回事等一下好我想說是不是建議一下這個已出審通過的條文還有立法說明會有是不是由教育部重整文資之後提供我們教育委員會是好不好可以教育部可以嗎好謝謝那我們等一下的最後的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9885.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9909.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
好 那我們各位我們聽一下我們今天協商結論第四條第五條修正通過然後呢增訂第七條之一第十條十一條第十二條第十七條及增訂第十七條之一含各條對應修正的動議文保留我們就送院會處理好 那院會協商院會協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9911.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9932.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
好 那我們通過附帶決議共一項然後原審查會保留及新增附帶決議共15案均保留送院會協商其餘均照審查會審查結果通過那檢附立法說明一份那我們目前就是我們的今天所得到的結場結論大家有沒有意見好 非常感謝各位 謝謝來 我們簽名一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9939.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9940.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9948.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9972.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
來 周偉辛苦了你們沒完沒了 我們到底是誰 沒錯加油加油 已經越來越好了 越來越好簽名簽名 簽名很大的進度了很大的進度了起碼讓人家7月30號的那個人家可以得到確診書辛苦了我從早上跑到這邊你跑到這邊我們也是好不好我們也是我還要回去弄 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9977.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9978.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
編曲 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10025.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10027.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
委員張雅琳等19人擬具 |