| IVOD_ID |
160951 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160951 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-05T11:28:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-05T11:44:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b706adada6d0aa2e617d3e2c5f8a9bba8ee65f04f81322868505dc707a53e8c9f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳思瑤 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:28:48 - 11:44:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席 有請政部長 陳局長麻煩政部長 陳局長 國安局黃副局長 副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
19.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
47.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
65.378 |
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已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
96.191 |
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立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
116.471 |
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但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
144.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
162.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
163.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
180.223 |
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所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
208.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
212.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
229.981 |
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大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
230.902 |
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252.074 |
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可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
253.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
278.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
300.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
327.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
328.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
345.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
347.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
371.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
374.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這就是一個很簡單 就講事實嘛 各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛 我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨 一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨 而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送 查辦 開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
425.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
442.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
471.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
472.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
488.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
518.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
519.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
545.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領公務人員任用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
547.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
570.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
572.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
589.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
590.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
605.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
618.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
637.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
639.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
648.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
654.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
677.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
678.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
690.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
707.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
720.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
722.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
738.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
741.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
759.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
761.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
783.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
809.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
812.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
831.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
832.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
854.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
855.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
880.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
881.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
902.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
903.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
919.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝 |