| IVOD_ID |
16095 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16095 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024070986 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-11T13:30:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-11T14:41:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:10:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc95e053c453ffb76d89c836a4986279528aaa308df9ea3739e487815fe80a3a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-11T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、併案協商(一)司法及法制委員會併案審查委員黃健豪等20人、委員徐巧芯等18人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」、委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」、委員王育敏等20人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」、國民黨黨團、委員柯志恩等19人、委員徐欣瑩等18人、委員陳超明等22人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」等10案。(二)委員賴士葆等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」。(三)委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」。(五)委員許宇甄等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」。(六)委員魯明哲等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」。二、司法及法制、內政兩委員會併案審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」、委員萬美玲等19人、委員謝龍介等19人、委員王鴻薇等29人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」、委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員伍麗華Saidhai．Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等18人、委員游顥等38人、委員張智倫等17人分別擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」等12案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:04 - 14:41:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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現在開始進行協商會議本日協商刑法修正及警察人員人事條例修正共計兩個主題稍後按照協商通知排序依序進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1922.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1946.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們介紹道場委員黃國昌委員我們介紹機關代表刑事廳法官朱家川法務部政次徐希祥內政部政次馬希仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1955.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1981.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
內政部警政署防制組副組長施宜先教育部國民及學前教育署學務校安組組長葉信春其一就不依介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1984.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1997.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好那我們現在逐案進行協商但是都沒有人來那我們稍微等一下看有沒有他們要不要過來不然沒有人是黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1999.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2021.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那個謝謝主席喔也辛苦了等一下兩點半那邊還要回去院長主持的協商那因為那個針對啊有關於那個我們警消同仁權益保護啊的事情也在今天協商的範圍之內嘛那針對啊有關於權序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2025.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2039.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
之前所提出來的那一份報告我們是不是可以請那個詮釋部就是說我也不太確定今天的協商是不是在委員會這邊可以順利的進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2040.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2064.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但我覺得有一件事情你們可能要需要再做一下因為我當然知道你們如果要真的精算的話那要請外面的精算師但是我們先以你們目前手上有的data來當作討論的基礎因為你們現在在算的那個所得替代率大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2065.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2079.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
就是只有四算兩種情境一個是95%另外一個是90%那因為我覺得這件事情我們非常多的人大家都很關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2080.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2099.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那是不是你們針對不同的情境的部分因為你們手上都有data啦大概參數改一下數字就跑出來了在所得替代率85、80、75、70這四種情境你們是不是可以再補數字來有困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2104.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2131.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
委員報告我是全局部政務次長那跟委員報告就是上次這個委員在審查的時候特別提然後我們也是希望能夠配合委員的這個期待就是把他能夠做一個比較好的精算的結果但是因為最後的決議是希望三個禮拜裡面提出來所以作業時間的確是有困難的那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2132.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2154.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
在整個作業過程我們也找了精算師跟我們做一些協作然後就是盡量趨向可以用這個一般精算的一個方式但是這樣來差距還是沒有辦法達到那個所以還是用概算的方式提出來那因為時間的關係所以我們也只有辦法從 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2156.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2181.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個提案的這個90%跟95%來做一個這個概算的處理然後也在期間內報到院裡面來那委員期待要試算其他的方式那可能要再更多一點時間要有時間我先跟次長交換一下意見就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2183.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2185.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你現在只是在換所得替代率的這個參數 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2203.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2220.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那我知道不管怎麼樣即使是換參數你們可能都需要一些時間但我覺得作為我們要比較負責任的去做一個最後的政策上面的決斷我們要可以看得到數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2222.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2237.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為你們在95跟90的時候我看跟完全都不調你們現金流量用慶的年數不管是90還是95大概是提早兩年不管是90還是95是提早兩年這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2244.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2272.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其他的情境的試算是不是也可以提供我的意思是說你其實只有在所得替代率到底是多少百分比是95還是90能夠除了這兩個情境以外你把那個參數換一下然後也可以提供補充的報告給我們其他的委員來做參考因為我必須要說啦就是說我從我自己的角度講 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2273.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2289.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
警消的同仁非常的辛苦他們的工作型態真的跟一般的公務人員是不一樣的那只不過說我們在政策的選擇上是到底要維持跟現在一般的公務人員一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2291.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2311.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
還是要一口氣把它拉到跟軍人一樣還是在中間有可能其他的選項我覺得我們要做最後的決斷以前要負責任的去思考這件事情那在兼顧所謂的世代正義跟年金永續的價值下我們怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2312.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2339.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我覺得這個對於接下來立法院在這件事情做最後的立法政策上面的決斷會非常的關鍵那因此我不太希望說接下來的討論變成是在蹭金蹭糧這樣不好就是說對我們現在基金的水位在不同的情境下面去做調整它會產生的影響是什麼因為你們現在試算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2340.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2367.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
只有兩種嘛不同的情境出來那我希望說你們把那個所得替代率的參數再換一下然後再提我沒有要你們從頭到尾再搞一個新的啦幾個關鍵的數值幾個關鍵的數值因為你們那個人啦的部分人的部分你們已經盤點出來了嘛人數的變化你們已經盤點出來那個是不會動花蠻多功夫去做是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2368.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2389.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我先不挑戰那樣的估計正確或不正確我知道你們很辛苦先去做了人數的部分是沒有必要去做更動的但所得替代率的部分既然你們手上都有data把那個替代率的參數稍微換一下然後提供一個補充的報告給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2390.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2409.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我覺得接下來在後續的協商當中有那樣的一個資訊當作基礎的話會比較讓我們在做政策最後決斷的時候有一個比較清楚的依據而不是用猜的那我覺得這樣也是一個比較負責任立法的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2411.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2437.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我跟委員做,就是剛剛委員的槌尋,大概做幾個跟委員報告一個就是警消很辛苦這件事情,我們大概所有的人都會認同所以我們現在的制度的設計是在前端就開始去拉高警消跟同職等的公務員的差距大概是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2438.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2445.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
六職等的錦銷會相當於八職等年供奉的公園。」那這個制度的難就是難在 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2447.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2474.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個要公平啦就是基金嘛大家都參與同樣的基金那如果是我買一百萬的保險他也買一百萬的保險那最後兩個領的是不一樣這個我們以主管機關負責任態度來講我們就很難對其他領的少的人去做說明那我們在制度的設計上是從頭開始設計就是前端就把它的待遇是拉高的就是把它拉高拉高以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2475.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2498.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那他整個就是這個繳費的機制上面就會前端後端就是一個橫屏的狀態那目前的制度是從待遇開始去做處理那待遇大概警政事節跟建立六指等會相差在大概九千到一萬六那個是不是可以把資料給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2503.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2512.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們有整理一個就是比較容易理解的就是我們在這個基礎上來看可能會更清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2519.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2539.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那就是我們從待遇端開始先把他拉高嘛所以他就會維持這個制度上面的所謂前後端的橫屏也是在前端的時候他就拉高所以他的腳配的標準就會跟這個後端領取的時候是一個橫屏的狀態所以他現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2539.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2550.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
差距同樣等階的警校跟非警校大概會差9000到16000,這個我們就是不包括像雙北那個比較有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2551.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2580.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
之給的一個情形然後它危老的設計上面也是在自願退跟借退有降臨的一個狀態那自願退大概是差10年也是讓這部分的同仁真的很辛苦讓他可以早一點領退休金因為退休金的啟資年齡也目前是差5歲到65歲大概做這樣的一個設計那這個慰問金的部分也把它差距拉出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2581.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2598.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我們就退休的狀況來看現在退休的平均年齡這個警校人員因為有降齡的關係所以他是55.59歲那非警校是60.25那這樣看起來差距就是有一點差距拉出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2601.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2618.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
在上次有很多人有些媒體有報導對於有一個質疑就是說景蕭同仁退休以後的平均死亡年齡到底跟國人是不是有比較低我們這個數據是從警政署的網站公開的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2620.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2639.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
去接取的,就是看起來是接近啦然後我們自己在109年游益蘭委員其實也要我們全區府有做過平均餘命的一個這個精算那我們那次是委託精算公司去做處理那以65歲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2641.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2648.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
平均餘命退休後,景蕭同仁及國人接近,以退平均月退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2663.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2680.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
會比非警消大概多四千塊一個月那他的退休金的積聚因為前端制度的設計讓他的縫集把他拉開所以現在看起來落在五萬到七萬的警消的統領是69.1%那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2683.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2708.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
四萬到六萬的非警消的一般公務通行是59.1%這個是以現況的呈現修法後大概會造成的情形就是修法後以退休的因為他已經退休了他就不會再扣他的錢所以他大概就維持在六萬左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2709.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2737.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們是用這個因為警校大概八成都是警政事階退休啦所以我們就用警政事階這個階級來做處理那非警校的同仁因為他還會所得替代還會持續下降所以從113到118還會從四萬九大概降到四萬四左右那修法前後如果是修法過了以後新退的就是警政事階的同仁會從大概六萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2738.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2758.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
二千多到會拉高到七萬九那鑑認第六指等的部分因為他沒有適用這端所以他是一個持平的狀態就五萬三大概一三到一八大概是一樣的狀態那財務的影響就是我們上次也很也很佩服這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2760.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2780.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
國常委員希望我們做負責任的主管機關應該是要有比較精確一點的數據來讓大家做參考讓這個政策的決定能夠更周延所以我們現在這樣算出來政府的支出修法以後這樣會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2782.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2800.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們是用50年啦,因為退伏法上面的規範就希望我們是每三年精算一次,然後每次的精算都是用50年所以我們是也盡量不要自己再創一個不同的模式所以政府的支出是會增加3117億 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2805.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2812.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這是政府的支出增加那對基金的影響就是本來要扣的扣不到了就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2815.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2836.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
本來給予預註到基金的部分就是政府因為給予必須編列預算到基金來預註的部分大概會少掉1093億那上次我們是的出估是講1080億那這是經過精算師的協助大概數據差距不大很接近這是1093 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2839.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2854.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那基金的支出大概會要增加668億那在這個收入依住減少支出增加的狀態之下那個流量 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2855.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2871.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
就是我們現在這個跑出來我們也是在金鑽石協助之下他是沒有委託他們但是因為他是我們之前有委託他其他案子所以他也有了協力來幫我們做一個比較一個可靠的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2873.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2898.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
一個估算的方式所以他的這個用盡年度就會提早兩年以現在就是本來年改是希望能夠到140年那因為上次12年7月1號以後那個個人專戶制實施之後當然那個進水量就變少了所以那一部分現在有一萬多人那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2898.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2912.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
另外一個儲金在做處理所以就會提早到134年那當然現在是政府在持續撥補那如果這個修正再通過的話就會再提早兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2913.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2935.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那剛剛要特別跟黃委員報告的就是我們有一個很困難的點就是很困難的點就是那個基金是大家一起參與的那照理說應該是繳費的標準跟你這個給付的標準應該是一樣那現在我們都是用本分兩倍在在做處理那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2936.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2956.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們可以按照委員的要求去算85、75、80等等這些擬具不過這個核心的問題會讓我們很難去面對其他的公務人員我們如果要告訴他說你的這個繳費的標準是一樣的然後你將來領的是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2957.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2980.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那公園的心理的那種衝擊是我們一個負責任的主管機關我們必須要說出來的所以我們為什麼會一直立場很堅定的要呼籲、要建議委員們能夠看到我們現在提出來這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2981.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3007.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是這個部分是比較比較辛苦的部分就是我有想這個比較以上跟委員做報告那委員的那個剛才希望我們再做補充這個做估算的部分我們回去可以再跟我們的同仁再討論一下那個時間到底多久我們能夠趕得出來然後再跟委員回報再把資料送到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3009.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3025.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
不好意思,中介我再補一下就是說非常感謝你的說明那剛剛你講到的那些方方面面的考慮這段時間各方面的聲音我們其實都有聽到那我只是要再特別強調一下就是說以我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3027.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3054.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
聽了很多聲音在這個社會裡面真的對我們的警消統人是有相當高程度的支持這個不是我捏造出來的但如同你所說的我們怎麼樣去維持一個橫貧以及年輕永續這樣子的一個想法以及政府在這個過程裡面扮演的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3055.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3071.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
以及如果說要對於警校的同仁政府應該給他們更好的待遇因為現在整個人力的結構從上一次我看警政署所提出來的數字人力的結構事實上已經真的在改變當中了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3073.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3091.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那那個所謂衝擊到的還有外部社會成本的問題那個我們要一併的把它考慮在這裡面那正是因為有很多方方面面的考慮我們必須要綜合的來考量所以我才會請全區部的同仁稍微再辛苦一點你們後面的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3092.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3108.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
包括政府的給付、然後資金的溢出、支出跟用盡的年度就是在不同的所得替代率的情境下可以把那個具體的數字特別是因為你現在是一下子是拉50年嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3111.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3131.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
對吧,你是用50年當估算嗎?跟委員報告,就是我剛剛有跟委員報告就是因為我們的退伏法上面這個精算都是用50年來做出來的這個我不挑戰啦,就是你就維持你本來的model就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3132.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3155.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我只是因為你們data保護得很好嘛data在你們你們把data保護好所以是應該的事情那用你們那個data用一樣的公式那用不一樣的參數把數字跑出來讓我們可以有一個依循好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員那我們還是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3161.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3188.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
沒有人來不一樣我們還是第二案的行政部門的代表出席有空勤總隊的副總隊長周鴻升全區部政次張修遠人事行政總處的副處長李美惠還尋屬人事室主任陳旺順 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3190.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3213.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
民用航空局人事室主任張蘭華國防部資源規劃司司長鄧克雄主計總處基金預算處科長周明正其餘的我就不一一介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3219.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3235.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那我們現在進行主案的建議協商那協商時候請參閱協商條文對照表、審查報告還有寄附二讀提案官新聞書與會委員如果有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3269.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3271.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3274.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3303.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
法制委員併案審查委員黃健豪等20人、委員徐巧芯等18人分別擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案、委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案、委員王育敏等20人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人分別擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案、 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3304.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3324.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員蘇清泉等28人擬具《中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百六條之一條文修正草案》、國民黨黨團委員柯之恩等19人、委員徐欣穎等18人及委員陳昌明等22人分別擬具《中華民國刑法第二百六條修正草案》等10案 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3325.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3345.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
院會禁賦二讀委員賴士寶等17人、委員陳清輝等20人、委員盧憲毅等17人及委員盧明哲等18人等提案其次委員會抽出禁賦二讀委員徐宇貞等22人提案法案審查會前一 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3346.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3361.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
本今年度4月17日審查完略審查結果第七七條增訂第二七二條之一第二八六條及第二八六條之一均保留送院會處理並決議院會前討論前交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3366.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3386.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
並定第十一次院會將委員賴世寶等17人、委員陳靜惠等20人及委員盧憲英等17人提案禁復二讀第十二次院會將委員徐宇貞等22人提案至委員會抽出禁復二讀第十三次院會將委員魯明哲等18 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3388.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3410.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
提案淨附二讀與相關提案併案審查以上共計15萬與今日併案進行協商現在先請與會機關代表說明並請委員進行討論請問一下與會的機關代表有沒有要說明沒有有嗎好沒有的話請問與會的委員有要說明沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3417.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3436.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為本日的協商由黨團代表未出席討論無法達成共識所以後續會依據立法院職權刑事法第十二章的相關規定我們已請院長召開黨團協商會議再進行協商謝謝各位那我們現在進行第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3440.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3462.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
繼續進行第二案協商保釋法及法制內政兩委會併案審查蘇星權等27人擬具警察人員人事條例修正第35條條文及增訂附表三草案委員萬美玲等19人、委員葉榮介等19人、委員王宏威等29人委員丁學忠等17人、委員顏寬衍等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3465.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3482.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
分別擬具警察人員人事條例第35條條文修正草案、委員鄭天才等18人擬具警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案、委員林詩敏等23人擬具警察人員人事條例第35條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3483.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3502.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
委員吳立華等16人擬具《警察人員人事條例》第35條及第36條條文修正草案、委員王鴻薇等18人、委員游皓38人及委員張志文等17人分別擬具《警察人員人事條例》第35條條文修正草案等12案 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3502.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3519.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
法案審查會前於4月17日審查完略審查情形第35條及增訂副表3保留送院會處理其餘均有審查結果通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商現在請與會代表說明並請出席委員討論那請問與會的代表有無要進行說明好次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3528.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3556.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
謝謝召委除了剛剛跟黃委員提的問題的報告之外就是剛剛內政部馬次長有跟我討論一個疑慮的部分就是我們看到我們整理那張表限職的待遇警政事階是八萬一千四百二十塊然後如果修法以後我們用警政事階任職三十五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3558.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3567.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
最高可以領到七萬九千多所以這兩個的差距會拉近到接近只差一兩千塊只差一兩千塊這種狀況那限職人員會不會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3573.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3588.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
退離,因為做跟沒做其實是很接近的,這個可能會像剛剛這個黃委員提到那個警力的人力可能也是另外一個難題,這個做一個補充說明,謝謝好,謝謝,那還有其他機關代表要說明嗎?好,次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3602.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3625.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
朝委還有黃委員那內政部的部分針對我們這次的修正提出內政部的一個建議第一個就是說剛剛我們全序部的張次長也提到如果今天按照目前的這個版本做所得地價率的調整的話那我們的限職的警消人員勢必會面臨大量流失的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3626.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3647.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那在歷次的委員會包括院會有非常多的委員都擔心我們現在的消防同仁是不足的尤其是上一次我們在新竹的勤工會大火之後有非常多的委員一直關心我們消防人力的補足的部分那我們現在也很努力的包括透過考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3647.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3661.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
跟這個訓練的加速來讓我們各地方政府的一個消防同仁的數量能夠得到一個滿足那麼滿足我們地方政府對於消防以及防災的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3662.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3687.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那第二個就是說如果按照這個版本通過的話勢必我們在人員的流失的速度會比我們在新訓人員的速度來得快那這部分的衝擊我們目前還沒有數據但是顯而易見的從權敘部所提供的數據可以看得出來這個衝擊是非常明確存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3687.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3708.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以如果沒有一個數據來能夠把這個衝擊說明清楚的話那做這樣的一個修法可能會造成我們立即的社會安全包括犯罪預防、治安防治跟我們災害防救上面的一個危機所以這部分還是請委員來多做考量那第二點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3710.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3736.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們在目前的法規的修正部分部分委員的版本將法規的內容延伸到移民跟空勤那在這個兩個單位的同仁他目前是以檢建委的一個方式為主那如果修正為警察官的適用的話這會有法律上的漢格這部分也麻煩召委跟委員們來考量那麼再者我們在消防機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3738.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3755.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
他本身是雙軌制他有警察人員任用也有警建委的任用那同一個機關同樣的職務那在不同的這個法條的規範下如果我們按照這樣的方式修訂會造成退休人員他的所得替代率的差距過大 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3757.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3778.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個也是我們在橫平性上面也必須要去考慮的所以中整以上的意見也懇請我們召委跟委員對於這樣一個修正案能夠再審慎尤其是我們剛剛提到的人員流失的部分所以電政部這邊除了武力華委員的版本我們競表同意之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3779.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3790.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
其他委員的版本我們還是建議委員多做考慮希望能夠考量社會的衝擊以及我們目前一個人員培訓的不易以上謝謝召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3796.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3814.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
因為現在沒有其他委員在那我就兩位次長是這樣第一位我們先請那個全市府次長因為剛剛黃委員有提出說要麻煩你們補一些資料那這個部分再麻煩全市府這邊要他有說時間內嗎?多久內嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3817.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3834.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
趙委員報告我剛剛有跟委員確認就是我們回去他容許我們回去跟我的同仁討論以後然後再跟他回報時間那他剛剛有沒有跟你說多久內他就是讓我回去他知道我們同仁很辛苦所以他是讓我回去跟我們的同仁討論那個時間再跟他回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3835.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3857.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那這部分再麻煩那個次長 全副次長是 接著稍微我們回去處理好 那剛剛那個因為兩位次長剛剛有發表一些高見那當然我們也不是說完全不認同兩位次長的看法但是因為現在沒有其他人在我也沒有辦法其他人在代理主席那我就直接說明就是我自己提出我幾個淺見 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3859.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3878.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
而第一個就是說雖然說本縫的部分這所責替代率拉近的話看起來似乎是現職人員跟退休人員他們的這個薪資會差不多但是事實上因為我們都是公務員出身的事實上現職人員他有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3879.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3897.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
其他的一些家籍可以領取其實實際上還是有蠻大一段的差距這我先跟兩位次長說明一下尤其是警察他有一些超刑津貼啦一些一些有的沒有的那個家籍那我也沒有去細算其實這個金額加起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3898.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3920.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
限職人員即便他在本縫上面差不多,但是他實際領取的薪資是高於退休的。」這先跟兩位說明一下那第二個就是說當黃國昌委員有提到結構的部分的問題那為什麼這一次我們先從這個錦霄、海巡或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3921.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3939.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
將來可能是不是空情要列入為什麼我們會提這個因為這幾個工作性質跟一般的公務員、委員比較不太一樣的是他們需要比較多體力或是他們有一些危險性所以我們特別把它拉出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3941.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3963.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以你們剛剛說啦,說現階段就已經人員不足了,如果我們今天再把它改制成它的所得替代率幾乎到跟現值差不了太多的話,會造成人員的大量流失對這個理由,這個確實也是一個道理,但是會不會回過頭來我們去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3965.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3979.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
就我上次在質詢的時候我有提到一個點就是我剛出來當檢察官的時候派出所的警察都很年輕二十幾年前都很年輕但我們現在去看派出所的警察其實都上了年紀了那這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3980.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3999.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
人力的結構有沒有辦法去因應這樣的工作其實是我擔心的因為我認識的基層警察我在跟他們請教的時候他們都跟我說一樣的話就是現在的這個所得替代率變成他不敢退休那不敢退休又因為總員額的問題年輕人 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4002.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4013.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
根本沒有辦法進來我們這個就沒辦法進來當公務員那我們這幾份工作又是正好需求年輕的人力進來的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4014.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4042.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以這個會變成是一個問題點那當然我也是肯定剛剛馬次長說的那個人員的這個問題那第二個就是說會不會是因為我們把退休制度改成今天這個樣子導致年輕人根本不想進來所以我們每年招的人數可能都不足我現在回過頭去跟兩位次長報告一件事如果我當年 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4043.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4063.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我當年告訴我說我的退休制度是會變成今天這個樣子那我也不敢來當公務員啦因為我們當年嘛我再選擇我要去當律師去賺錢還是要到公務員去做一份穩定的工作然後退休金讓我穩定的退休這是兩個抉擇但是但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4066.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4089.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
如果說我今天知道我退休後的這個退休金領的是金額是這樣我甚至我連考慮都不會考慮去當檢察官所以所以也是要請兩位次長這個是兩位從來沒有去談論到的論點所以剛兩位提的論點我也不是不支持那兩位論點是很金幣但是是不是我們從另外一個角度去思考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4091.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4115.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
也是要考量進去因為畢竟這幾個工作項目是比較特殊的它跟一般我們做辦公桌的工作性質還是不同那我們真的需要年輕的人來從事警消還有其他海巡、空巡這一方面的工作我們還是需要很多年輕人來那會不會是我們的制度反而造成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4116.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4135.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個年輕人不敢進來雖然總數看起來好像沒有變而且我們沒有讓一群人去領退休金但是是不是會讓反而是造成國家的另外一個社會成本的負擔就剛剛黃國昌委員所說的所以這是我的淺見再麻煩兩位次長也能夠思考一下謝謝兩位好 那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4142.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4167.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
今天就第二案的協商因為一樣是黨團代表沒有出席討論所以無法達成共識後續我們會依據立法院職權行使法第十二章的相關規定我們會引請院長召開黨團協商會議進行協商謝謝各位今天會議到此散會 |