| IVOD_ID |
160943 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160943 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-05T09:12:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-05T09:32:31+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b7e43caf56834776e17d3e2c5f8a9bba8e6af5cb2c6aef9296efb3babcbf3bc8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:12:02 - 09:32:31 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.576 |
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各位好,時間的關係不亦問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
77.964 |
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那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.227 |
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85.281 |
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目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子,向上溯源辦,辦到什麼地方? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
91.405 |
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107.791 |
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向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容他就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個態度我想這個國安的這些國安的犯罪這部分對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
109.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
128.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上授權 向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
129.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
154.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
183.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.144 |
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231.101 |
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沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.793 |
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253.667 |
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因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
254.528 |
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277.632 |
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何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
283.732 |
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285.347 |
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林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
286.578 |
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315.169 |
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跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
316.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
呃 如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.047 |
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364.62 |
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擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
365.521 |
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391.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
392.476 |
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420.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
422.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
447.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
461.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
463.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
490.783 |
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今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做 該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
492.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
514.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
543.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
545.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
566.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
572.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
598.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
599.349 |
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609.497 |
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我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
631.135 |
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652.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我上次啊 問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼 吳尚宇的事情 總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天 總統府就把他解職了 誰洩密 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
655.954 |
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682.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個 你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
683.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
712.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
714.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
739.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
741.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
761.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
766.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
787.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是什麼 現在又有但是囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
789.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
811.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
812.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
834.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
836.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
862.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
865.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
894.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
896.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
909.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
911.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
931.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
934.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
954.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
956.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
980.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
981.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
989.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們認為我們是依在在法定行列 適當的量刑是 所以嘛在現行法下面 你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
992.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1012.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1013.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1041.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1042.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1054.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1056.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1073.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1076.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1092.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1093.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1115.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1117.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1127.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1129.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1158.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1159.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1186.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1186.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1213.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1215.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1224.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰 |