| IVOD_ID |
16094 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16094 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024071094 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-11T10:00:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-11T21:07:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
11:07:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0c95e053c453ffb765d2e70a2fa94eea928aaa308df9ea373385ae65fe3af22515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-11T10:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商有關「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」、「洗錢防制法修正草案」、「科技偵察及保障法草案」及「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」等案（民進黨黨團提議）二、研商有關「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」等案（國民黨黨團提議）三、研商有關「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）四、研商有關「新住民基本法草案(新住民權益保障法草案)」、「四零三震災重建條例草案」、「本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議『農業部應調整公糧收購價格，由每公斤26元調整至每公斤34元，提高農民基本利潤，請公決案』」等案（國民黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:00:00 - 21:07:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1886.114 |
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1889.556 |
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首先歡迎內政部劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1906.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1907.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1923.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1952.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
各位黨團代表,今天我們繼續進行黨團協商主題是內政委員會、病案審查行政院韓警審議、臺灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷飛十六人委員凝聚的《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》與今院會晉赴二讀相關提案並按協商的本院委員會何新存等二十一位立委所凝聚的《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》等六案第二件事情要跟各位黨團幹部報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1953.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1971.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本案之黨團協商（已於七月八日召集協商後（僅保留第二十四條、二十五條（其餘的條文均已達成共識（後續我們還有很多法案要繼續來協商（為了節省各位黨團代表的寶貴時間（我們今天只針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1972.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1993.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
上述兩條條文來進行協商其他條文我們就不再討論請問各位黨團代表對民進黨黨團所建議上述第二十四條、二十五條條文之修正動議有無意見在請各位總召發言之前要報告一下今天開會的流程今天有非常多重要的外賓到來立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1993.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1993.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2021.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2048.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們中午休息完畢之後全國村里長聯合會來立法院訪問所以要兩點鐘要跟大家照相所以我們中午會休息大概在兩點半左右後續我們就繼續開會就看大家我們自己還順順著這個節奏就開下去截止時間到時候我們再說那因此請大家務必要掌握今天這個寶貴的時間接下來我們請提案的徐議政委要發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2051.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2068.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
國民黨團要先發言是吧?我剛剛看你舉手徐政委員請,請掌握時間,謝謝接下來下面後面誰發言?好,柯總統準備是,針對昨天這個柯總統所提出的這個修正動議我是認為說以這個部分的話其實我們確實是有必要針對我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2070.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2072.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我希望禁止其在一定期間內參加頻率的投標 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2097.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2108.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
希望能夠約束一些我們的電信業者在面對這樣子一個問題的時候能夠謹慎地面對對於徐醫生委員所提的這種法則就是不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2116.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2141.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
現在說禁止以後投標那現在的電信是三個系統那三個系統包括評估的分配那是一個非國家評估的分配都必須要競標的動輒數百億而且整個電信的訂閱者負擔整個國家通信以及網路那我要講一個事情就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2142.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2157.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們這個法則處罰什麼東西?它有幾個層次,第一個就是說,都是二十四條的第一項手列,那手列不外乎要它KYC,那以及這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2159.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2173.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
無路徑製藥或者已經查的使用製藥離開的所有國藝漫遊當中都要報等等這些事實上這個是一個對於將來因為管理面的問題因為我們電信管理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2178.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2194.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
已經把二類電信不再管了,所以將來目前為止包括NCE也不管這個,數碼部也沒有再管,但是這部分這門經營就是要實名制 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2196.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2214.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我們現在在談這個事情就是說,你看這些行為本來就有要罰這些業者有罰,然後有加重就一千萬,現在要改為兩千萬,那本來是第一個,第一個層級是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2216.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2229.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
是二十到兩百現在要加重五百那是又一回事第二層級要嚴重的加重的是一槍現在變成兩槍現在到最後就不能來競標換句話說整個電競市場那整個失衡那我們要了解這種比喻原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2240.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2270.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
二、研商有關:「電信管理法乃至於公民教育法．公民教育法上聯結結合行為是五千萬以上．也沒有所謂的調查問題．電信管理法．五百萬以上．不外乎就是耐用市場獨佔地位等等．那這個是管理裡面的問題．因為他哪一支手機．他手機是不是生很多隻．有朋友在使用的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2272.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2298.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
等下會談到這條明知,這要罰他。市場很難去控制。那我要講的就是說,打詐當然是,這也是打詐司法。我們最主要的科證法,還有洗錢防制嘛。現在的障礙防治法,當然有通保法。這些整個到底是打詐的工具。不是這樣簡單的就是說,全部推給AIDS來負擔終極的責任。比如說在公路上, |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2300.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2311.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
編審室蓋一個高速公路那上面跑的車子違規是警察要去抓的不能說把高速公路全部封起來所以這個邏輯上我們要講清楚所以這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2313.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2341.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這樣有法則絕對是有失衡,而且坦白講,過去在標的時候,我不知道什麼情況底下不能標,請安心談清楚有時候你因為小小違規的話,就要擴大到你不能來標這個是坦白講的話,我從六極端的想法,假如是說中國要破壞台灣的電信事業,他故意找很多人在亂搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2343.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2349.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一直沒有亂搞,然後造成我們第一次要關門。這個屬於國家很重要的基礎建設。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2352.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2371.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為可以想像得到,那假如我們三家全部關門當然就沒有差別意見,我們回到實際時代就好了,是不是這樣?所以我是覺得,我們現在是和中國在認識戰啊,中國在對我們的滲透等等無所不用其極啊。他找很多人去亂搞違規等等,到最後說把他關掉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2375.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2401.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你要思考這個問題,這個處罰不能失衡的,而且有一定比喻原則,沒有這樣就是說,那假如以後就是說有兇刀,刀子都不能賣,我想這個邏輯想大家先弄清楚。我不知道新聞這個為了什麼一定要堅持必須要如此,這個可能大家思考一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2404.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2412.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
打仗是要靠整個團隊國家一起來的補充報告一下徐宇貞委員國民黨團的修正通已經發到各位手上接下來請問臺灣民眾黨黨團請發言因為第一個是這個是審查會通過的條文當作基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2424.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2451.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那上一次在協商的時候NCC這邊有提出了說你把它絕對的禁止可能會產生的一些問題那我上次就有在協商的時候提出來問說到底是有追溯還是向未來那徐委員他也釐清了是向未來那如果向未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2453.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2469.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對於一定的期間來加以限制那這樣子的一個修法上面的體力可能就沒有上一次我們那個NCC應該是主秘吧對應該是主秘說擔心黃主秘對黃主秘他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2472.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2493.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
牽涉到說現在既有的用戶他們權益上面的問題所以這次徐委員他所提出來以審查會的版本為基準的再修正動議那好像也去除了上次在黨團協商的時候大家所擔心會發生的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2496.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2501.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝,我們請NCC黃主任秘書請發表報告,欸對不起,沈博洋文請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2504.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2527.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好那這個因為上次釐清了他是對於未來的一個限制就不能夠再繼續這個那這次改成一定時間那因為這個平普的取得他還是有時間就跟這個電視台的那個執照一樣所以就會變成說假設他今天過了一段時間他原來的已經到期了然後未來他又有一定時間不能做那其實這個營業自由的侵害還是很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2528.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2551.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
其實營業自我欺犯很大,按照法條來講不一定是一個最大的問題,我覺得它最主要是搭配台灣的現狀,就是說因為畢竟台灣的電信業者就是那幾家,那到最後併購啦,或者說就是讓,因為它資本本來就非常集中,所以我覺得就是說還是可能要考慮一下,它有可能會有一個,因為畢竟本來的法環跳到這一個,它中間的落差其實非常的大,那它會造成的市場的動盪會大一點,我覺得還是可以考慮一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2552.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2573.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好,謝謝沈博亮委員發言。請NCC黃主任秘書,請補充一下。是,上一次這個,上次我們也確實是,因為李先生是針對未來,就,大概就不會有直接侵害人民財產權的問題。但是剛才沈委員也特別有提到,因為整個電信事業啊,我們台灣電信事業就,能夠有這麼樣密,密,資本密集的電信事業就只有三家而已。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2574.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2590.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
實際上是整個的未來的台灣的發展整個AI的發展整個電信服務的發展其實還在繼續當中如果說假設我們用這樣的一個手段的話這麼嚴格的手段這麼嚴厲的手段就是說因為某一些打詐上面的因素而造成它一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2592.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2592.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
二、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2608.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2612.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
國民黨團最新的再修正版本您看到了嗎?對未來的競標限制它一段一定期間的參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2640.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2661.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
黃國昌總召請再發言我只是想要請教一下就是說因為看你們現行的那個電線管理法在針對不同的違反你們NCC所制定的使用規範上面除了發放的法律效果以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2662.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2687.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你們也有廢止它使用的合配這樣的處置手段那也就是說即使在電信管理法的脈絡裡你採取的行政法的手段是雙軌的一個是罰錢嘛那另外一個是廢止它的合配那你廢止它的合配包括了在不同的脈絡裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2689.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2716.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
也有廢止他網路設置的許可也有廢止他檢驗合格的證明等等等等也就是說你在電信管理法裡面竟然有這種雙軌處罰的模式那針對電信業者我們希望他能夠做好在打詐上面實際應該要有的管制座位那他沒有做好他沒有做好當然第一步是先罰錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2718.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2732.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那到第二步的時候才會有向未來禁止的問題那未來禁止的問題我以法條上面的法律效果來講是比你直接去廢止它現在的核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2734.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2762.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
直接去廢止現在你早就配給他的東西直接廢止的法律效果反而是更強烈的所以我剛剛聽你的說明我就有一點聽不太懂因為我本來想要確認一下說電信事業只有三家如何如何很重要這個我們大家都了解但問題是說當你自己在電信管理法裡面你所採取的有關於行政管制的強制處罰作為就不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2763.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2787.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
法環是除了法環以外你連廢紙目前已經既有的核准都已經在你的規範之列了那這個時候你可能要提出一個更具有說服力的理由為什麼在電線管理法裡面你們針對你們NCCC所頒布的一些管制使用的規則如果有違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2788.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2811.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
可以用到直接廢紙寄存的那在打詐這邊那你如果沒有去符合我們要求電信業者應該要做到的事情然後把它做為第二軌必要的時候的管制手段我覺得這部分可能你你可能要再更清楚的論述一下看可不可以說服一下那個提案的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2814.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2829.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召的再度發言,接下來請NCC黃主任秘書請補充。是,我以黃委員剛才所出席的這個案例來說,因為最近的一個案例事實上就是,如果假設你不配合那個通訊傳播主管機關的要求而設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2830.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2851.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
通訊監聽設備的話．那這時候其他所涉及的其實上是．本身是一個職業法令的違反．直接拿電信設備去做違法的使用．那通常是在這種情況之下．或者是說．那他沒有按照他自己所定的移運計畫．來實行的時候．你既然你的移運計畫是說我要做什麼服務．結果你又完全做另外一種服務的時候． |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2852.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2866.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這時候我們才會廢止它的那個網路的這個設置的這個許可通常是到這麼樣嚴重的情況我們才會處理那我們回過頭來看我們現在目前所列的這些法條因為事實上是它大多數是一個是一個沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2866.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2888.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2890.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2902.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
前提還是一個手段目的之間的這個衡量的問題了以目前我現在所看的這個個款上面來看的話我覺得似乎沒有用到這麼嚴重的手段說以後你都不要來參與競標了的這種必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2906.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2921.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四十五條之一、七百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2929.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2946.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我總覺得說在我們在立法品質上其實還是不能讓人家覺得說我的手段的目的之間會像他的這麼大那建議還是救他的反正我的目的只是要強迫你要履行你的這些配合的義務嘛所以把他的這個法權加高也就夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2948.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2965.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
謝謝黃竹密的補充報告柯總長因為時間到了我再講一下好嗎?好長話短說,謝謝剛才竹密講很清楚因為只用這個來做違法的使用犯罪工具當然要擺位置我們知道現在電信國際是有一類二類二類當然是網路業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2968.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2993.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那一列就是當然包括顧王等等現在這三家業者就是一列基本上當然過去是這樣分類但最主要是講說我們業者用來做犯罪工具的時候當然賣廢照那你想這三家這樣大的電信公司有可能拿這個來做犯罪工具嗎?不可能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2995.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3022.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們現在要求不外乎說他對客戶要做一個KYC要把客戶放卡的時候要了解他到底那個手機的時候有沒有別人在使用等等所以這個是一個管制規則管制的問題並不是他拿來做營運謀利的問題所以這個要分清楚假如我們這樣的話直接用這樣強制的手段其實坦白講我們現在所要求的包括黑名卡等等我們當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3023.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3039.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們都知道現在沒有實名制嘛,將來要走上實名制才是我們的正辦啦,比如說令管理法裡面過去修掉了嘛,所以應該走上實名制,這個是要整個法規面來看待,那你現在就是說我們很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3040.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3054.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
電視管理規則還是要follow CSMA﹖就是國際的一個規則﹖國際所訂出來的規則﹖這是兩百多個國家參加﹖八百個電視公司參加的﹖但是我們在這裡做一些管制的規則﹖假如脫離那個部分的話﹖實際上講坦白﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3059.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3081.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
對電信公司的困難。我們不能把政府打詐的責任全部推給這個電信公司嘛。打詐是一個團隊要一起來打。我說我們今天搞答案司法幹什麼呢?這四個法項也是所有工具都給了。我們希望說詐騙體能夠降低。法則也降低,洗錢防制怎麼都來了嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3082.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3091.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們現在回到一個邏輯就是說,好像不行的話就把定義公司拿來開刀,這是本末導致的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3092.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3119.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我剛才說過,國際公務委員會就是公務員去處理,不可以給國防崩壞嘛所以我們覺得這個,這有兩個危機啊第一個,這個電影公司之間比起惡性競爭我找很多人在亂搞,不…不…QRC給亂搞那這個惡性競爭亂把命還家幹掉,這還得了臺灣未來是AI的世界,我們網路這個這麼重要,這個已經整個國家都亂掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3120.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3147.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
第二個中國藝術,這兩個藝術我絕對考慮,中國也派人來擾亂到最後我們事務法參加都關起來,我們回到十幾十代就好了所以我們立法要講清楚立法目的是怎麼樣?不是用最直接的,你是管理,然後你用管理推到最極致我再講用電信管理法上面對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3151.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3173.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對於這個價格不當維持,那樣市場圖案的地位就是價格不當維持,它只是幾百萬的罰則那公民教育法上面有結合行為有多少錢的罰則還沒有一個動到就是說以這樣,因為館裡面的,有是不是可以把這個比這個價格不當維持還嚴重,結合行為還嚴重的,不要把它直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3175.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3187.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
讓他不能來標或是寫法撤照這個我想這個一定要好好思考我想講說兩個最可能想像的我們這邊可以看到二星金的結果第二中國運輸好謝謝柯總召補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3191.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3218.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
報告各位黨團幹部很簡單第一個我想打詐現在其實已經是國家安全問題所以剛剛祖密講說這個比例性跟價值它是有一個判斷就是也很難說哪一個價值高那第二事實上前一天我們在講的時候我覺得柯總統講得很好如果是直接向過去廢止的話我覺得衝擊太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3218.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3245.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
所以今天其實法律上我們基本上已經調整很明確是向未來的所謂的禁止在一定期間內參加評普的投標那我覺得事實上已經是有一個雙方已經往這個差異性往中間接近一點那第三是什麼事實上這個條文的罰款的啟動這個處罰的啟動基本上它是有前提那不是說今天馬上可以啟動就是有前項各款情形情節重大你罰了錢限期改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3245.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3268.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
他還不改善．那才給行政機關一個得的一個啟動的考量就是說其他的威嚇性當然因為剛剛柯總長講說因為這個東西這個知識體大啦齁如果不讓他這個投標知識體大可是正因為這個知識體大其實他對主管全是掌握在那個電信主管機關嘛所以某種程度也會更加的附加說基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3269.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3289.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這些電信事業他們在配合國家的打詐政策上可能會有更高的一個所謂的動力跟警惕心因為最有把關的還是這個主管機關所以基本上主管機關如果剛剛認知到不管是祖密講的情形或是剛剛我們柯總長講的情形的話其實主管機關就不用祭出這麼重的所謂的禁止這個參加評普投標 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3290.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3312.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以我認為說其實還是可以放進去那多一個主管機關的一個材料而且它也不是漫無限制它前面必須有一個前提條件以上謝謝羅志強委員發言我還是對這個事情要保留我們現在先休息這二十四條五款內容在講什麼這是在管理什麼東西現在跟我們黨黨幹部會報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3316.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3334.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們現在休息休息期間拜託各黨團幹部跟NCC的主管我們一起繼續來協商24條跟25條休息之後我們先接待一下外賓重要的外賓我們11點20分繼續開始那非常感謝大家特別謝謝我們所有列席的各位閣員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4686.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4703.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好,謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位內閣的各位閣員現在他們正在二十四條、二十五條正在擬定條文然後在修正的提案的徐議政委員現在正在質詢,他等一下會過來我們就先把保留起來,回過頭來我們再來探討,我們現在進入下一案來 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4731.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4750.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
呃,NCC主秘,因為不好意思,萬一回頭來的話,可能還會要麻煩到您,不好意思,也跟部長特別...啊,部長...好的...好...好...那... |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4785.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4790.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
黃主席你們可以先休息一下,不好意思,對不起他不會離開,他不會離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
5398.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
5400.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那個剛剛有拿一個修正動議那針對第二十四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
5412.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
5426.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
跟二十五條最後的那個法律效果限制其在一定期間內用戶號碼數量之合配這個我們同意這同意那只是前面在針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
5429.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
5456.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
第二款部分,它那個主觀要件上面跟其他的各款就明顯地做了差別的處理然後要求主觀的要件上面只要求明知,就直接拉到明知而不是知悉就可以了那因為你到明知的時候就要有確定故意它在概念上面是要有確定故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
5460.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
5484.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
一般我們在主管要件上面界定之期只要到未必故意就可以了那你如果說要要求主管機關要進行裁罰的時候你要把他拉到主管機關他裁罰他必須要盡得舉證責任要證明到這個電信業者明知這樣子的一個程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
5485.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
5506.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那這樣子區別對待（他實質上面的理由（跟正當性以及主管機關（如果加上這個要件的話（在未來他們的管理上面（會不會出現一些困難（是不是可以請NCC表示一下意見啊 這樣子NCC是同意的嗎好 陳柏陽委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
5508.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
5525.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這一個地方我覺得比較麻煩的地方就是說因為第十六條是屬於這種移轉這個它的門號比如說給家人等等之類的那通常它雖然會有告知的一個義務但是其實我覺得以業者來講他主動去查核這件事情他的量能應該是不太可能做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
5526.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
5547.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
現在問題就在說如果說我們要限定它是要故意的情形那我們到底要像明知就是直接故意然後還是說它是知悉然後它是故意的情形然後都可以納入我覺得這一個是都有可能那就要看主管機關覺得哪一種情形是比較覺得合乎現在執法的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
5553.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
5563.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
主席、各位委員,剛才那個原來的條文裡面是包含過失跟故意跟過失的那確實是可能業者的那個所謂擔負的責任狀態會比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
5566.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
5594.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
是,我是說原來的條文那現在的話就是動議裡面把它改成明智的話,因為明智只建議直接過意那如果主管局官證明直接過意,我想在舉證責任上面給主管局官的這個負擔也太大所以基本上我是同意那個荒謬議員在說的,把它改成窒息那未來的話,未來我只要證明說我的一些措施他窒息的話,那他就要擔不起責任那我想也可以把未必故意也包含進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
5599.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
5624.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
黃昇偉是要發言還是沒有啊?沒有啦,你如果說啦就是因為主管機關也表示意見了嘛我現在很擔心的是齁你在主管要件上一口氣把他拉到民資直接故意那你會讓這個條文實際上面空洞化因為你要主管機關怎麼去證明到直接故意這樣子的一個程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
5625.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
5642.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以我是同意剛剛主管機關他所建議的就是主管要件上面不要拉到名字只要知悉有一般的故意包括直接故意跟未必故意都可以謝謝黃國昌委員補充發言接著請莊瑞雄委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
5645.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
5664.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個我有點意見是不是討論一下這個方位有沒有會不會把概念把刑法的概念移到行政法的概念裡面來了我們整個行政法的第七條的規定違反行政法上的義務的行為本來就是沒有去講故意或者說是過失這個是我怕我們這邊討論的時候有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
5666.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
5693.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
有時候一下子要談憲法有時候要談到我們整個科徵刑法我們現在在討論的是行政法的問題那我倒反而會覺得說我就一併來講啦 院長你像比如我們剛剛提到那個這個二十四條跟二十五條那個部分我特別有一個感想就是說我在我們在審這個條文我也特別提出來我們其實就是去仿照仿照整個日本那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
5694.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
5695.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那把這一些人他該有的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
5721.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
5744.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那手機非法去使用的人的成本你也轉嫁給電信機關這個也不太合理那你偵查機關你倒就是偵查不利那把這個成本也就丟給電信業者我倒認為也都不合理所以我的結論是說像這樣子在我們整個電信業者跟申請業者之間你本來就要明確的去規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
5745.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
5765.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
你應該要去告訴他就不能把這些不利益全部都轉嫁到電信業者身上尤其你去把它看它其實在我們把它在最後一項要求通知頻率主管機關禁止合佩頻率這樣的一個規定這個當然我們等一下會協商可能大家都有一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
5767.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
5781.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以我的意思要指出來就是說前面這些重的東西啊其實處罰都沒有那麼嚴重反而最重的我們處罰的沒有那麼重那比較輕的部分是別人的不利益的科與電信機關這個好奇怪請各個黨團大家再深思熟慮一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
5790.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
5804.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
現在有幾個名詞知悉、明知、還有故意我想大家都很清楚假如說明知的話就沒有今天故意還有過失 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
5805.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
5825.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
在我們所有的立法律裡面我去找一找海關七十條,我們很多,法務等一下可以回答看看海關七十條例很多都寫明資、環境用藥、市場擁有立法律、社會自治法、社會自治維護法等等,我們很多包括氣候變遷 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
5827.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
5838.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
都有寫上名字（明確、榮耀、管理法等等都有（所以在地法律商案過去我們都碰過（今後無法表示意見好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
5844.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
5872.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們行政法法是這樣按照行政法法的規定它是處罰故意跟過失如果法條上沒有寫它是故意過失的話你違反它的義務的話既處罰故意也處罰過失但是立法例上你可以排除直接故意你只可以現已直接故意排除間接故意也可以排除過失這幾個選項都可以這是立法上的選擇如果說我們立法法條上有規定明知的立法例也非常的多行政法上但是這個涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
5872.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
5895.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們的執法機關、我們的行政機關他的舉證責任的問題當你限於明日的時候他的裁罰範圍就變小他的舉證責任就加強那如果再降一個我限於故意就包括直接故意、包括間接故意、包括未必故意都可以不包括過失如果不寫的話就包括故意跟過失都要裁罰如果不寫的話故意過失都要裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
5897.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
5917.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好,謝謝法務部的說明,再請沈博洋委員請發言因為他這個是違反第十六條,那因為第十六條他是用戶他沒有去,就是說他轉了這個號碼,那他沒有依前項規定去重新辦理核對登錄者,所以用戶自己有一個責任啦,然後用戶沒有去做了以後呢,電信事業應該要去停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
5918.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
5941.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以照理說至於這個電信事業它已經因為這個對打仗來講這已經是往前一層又再一層的事情了所以如果說客語電信業者說連未必故意都包含在裡面的話當然責任我覺得還是會有點重啦當然它規則上可以設計它可以規避啦但是我總覺得這一個要不要直接把就是把未必故意包含在裡面我覺得是可以討論看看我是覺得明智是不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
5942.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
5944.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
A77的主密老是這樣轉來轉去,他要把不利於全部規則又延遲,對他來講最簡單。你就是這種心態。 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
5955.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
5983.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我們整個打詐是整個國家、團內、中小法一起在弄嘛!他要減輕他的負擔嘛!所以要不然你遇到整個官員的業者嘛!你就...剛才...剛才講說沒有問題,現在又說...欸...你還自欺!我們...所以...NCC...你是不是在做事?我不是在做事!他本來在換...換號碼的時候他們就要問你這個手機是不是...你有管理規則是不是你自己在用?因為這個東西...他要...他只要沒有做這個動作的話...他們...看起來你們都有查核嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
5986.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
6009.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
你講北京所有責任,我們若有事都理他們就好,這個運氣心態可以,我這樣講白了,你們兩邊人在做來做去嘛,我不清楚你在想什麼,剛才在這裡說可以沒問題,現在等下一問,這樣比較方便,什麼叫知識?明知嘛,當然是要明知嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
6011.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
6031.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
你本來他換手機號碼的時候,他就會問嘛,你們有那些管理規則,那手機要幾百萬,規則萬機啊。所以那些人有辦法抓說,韓院長你的手機五支另外一支是你注意在用,這不行啦。那你們也有辦法做到嗎?很難的嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
6031.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
6032.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
黃主委深呼吸勇敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
6055.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
6056.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
中常會其實每個月我們的三個局處大概兩百多個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
6071.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
6087.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
每一個月我們大概有十幾批人固定在查核所有的電信通路我們最近內部其實也有在考慮是不是要把我們這些查核的這些結果也對外公佈會讓業者有所緊張因為我們確實也發現某些特定地區它的冒名頂替的量確實是有一些異常 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
6095.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
6117.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
所以我們最近也在考量這些事情做必要的資訊公開這是一件事情很容易報告就是通常會其實在這麼有限人力底下負責通訊傳播業務其實是非常非常的辛苦所以我要先跟總召說要跟我們總召報告一下就是說我們同仁其實真的很辛苦那第二件事情是當時因為原來在整個的法治上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
6118.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
6139.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
因為通常對在行政法上面在行政機關通常我們只要要求說業者你只要做到什麼動作那我就會認為也是OK的但是你只要沒有做到什麼動作我就認為你要負起責任我們就如同法務部次長所說的通常我們在行政機關裡面不會在構成要件裡面去加上一個叫做它的主觀狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
6141.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
6141.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
主觀構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
6162.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
6169.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
主管機關不能夠證明故意過失,主管機關就不能夠罰人家。第二、假設它的責任狀態是屬於過失的話,我們也會卓以有卓減的空間。同時,本來在構成條例就賦予主管機關,你可以在哪一個額度之內, |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
6180.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
6207.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
在一定範圍之內﹐給予適當的裁量﹐我們內部其實也定有裁量﹐有一個電信管理法違規的裁量表﹐我們大概都有在做﹐現在所涉及的就是說﹐這個案件裡面﹐確實﹐如果說假設它是刻意要去規避﹐刻意要去冒名頂替﹐我們的電信事業﹐似乎就如同總召所說的﹐似乎確實是有一些﹐比較加重業者的責任﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
6209.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
6209.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
主管機關的顧慮就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
6235.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
6236.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
6263.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
6280.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這武大郎放風箏啊你光看風箏那個手在哪裡你到底答案是什麼我還是聽不太懂要改故意好了這個手在誰身上武大郎身上你到底結論是什麼請表達意見好沒有沒有你還沒我們讓NC主任秘書直接再表達一次沒關係所以我們再討論沒問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
6282.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
6305.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我是覺得應該在直接故意當然要負責了那那個未必故意的話我想已經既然贏到未必故意了我想在正面程度上主管就已經不會那麼吃力了只要我能夠知道他有窒息的話會比較好那這一件可能就要跟柯總統遭一點抱歉但是沒關係祖密你勇敢講出來沒問題我們正在討論沒問題的所以祖密還是希望說用窒息來接下來請華國昌委員發言沈某陽委員請準備來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
6310.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
6317.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
因為在這一次的打壓專法裡面他要處理一個很重要的問題就是說手機的號碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
6320.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
6341.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們一般人是正常的使用但現在在目前詐欺的形態裡面已經成為犯罪集團他們的犯罪工具這是為什麼兩年以前開始有很多檢察官開始提出呼籲你前面的那個犯罪工具行政機關要把它管制好包括帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
6343.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
6361.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
包括手機、包括個資這三個部分是現在新型態的詐欺犯罪裡面一定要用到的犯罪工具你前端犯罪工具沒有處理好你後端到檢警那一邊的時候就會產生我們今天現在的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
6362.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
6380.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
整個詐欺犯罪的案件量已經快要壓垮第一線監警他們幾乎一半以上的偵辦能量全部都放在這裡那在這樣的前提下針對這個部分因為第十六條事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
6383.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
6411.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
因為涉及到用戶端的行為所以我同意要把過失的情況把它排除在外但你實際上面電信業者他們在對於他們自己有關於用戶相關的管制行為在這個詐欺專法以下已經苛於他一定的義務要他去做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
6412.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
6436.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
但他知道而沒有做我覺得這個時候給他處罰是適當的你如果一下把主觀要件拉到民資事實上你某個程度上是把業者他們本來應該要盡的責任讓他轉嫁到相對於的資源比較有限的公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
6437.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
6462.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
以NCC目前所有的人力他們的能量跟電信業者他們所有的資源的能量兩個之間來思考到底誰在一個比較好的位置去做這樣子的一個管控我覺得是電信業者啦那因此我是建議啦大家可不可以再思考一下不要一下子 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
6463.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
6485.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
把他拉到明智故意就是明智的直接故意這樣子的程度不要讓那個天秤一下子傾向電信業者這麼多所以在這個主觀要件上面不要把它定得那麼嚴讓我們的NCC在採取實際的管制作為的時候能夠真的發動這個工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
6489.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
6512.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
謝謝黃國昌委員,請沈伯陽委員請發言我重整一下,整個二十五條他要罰到十萬到一百萬那他指的是違反十五、十六、十七、十八、二、三這幾個那為什麼十六條特別是因為十五條是在簽約的時候十七、十八、二、三都是發現對方有詐欺也就是十五、十七、十八、二、三都是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
6513.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
6542.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個電信業者他在主動的時候他發現了什麼事情所以他要怎樣所以在這邊反而不會有疑慮但十六條我再回去一次就是十六條他的特色是用戶轉讓的時候他要去跟電信業者講那電信業者如果他用戶沒有講這件事情的話其實我說真的用戶其實要有一定的責任那現在是這一條的意思是說用戶沒有去做的時候那電信業者如果發現了那應該要去做一個限制跟停止那他如果沒做的話那就是這一個十萬到一百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
6543.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
6558.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以這個對電信業者來講說真的會是一個量能上比較大的就畢竟因為誰在轉讓他不可能掌握的那麼清楚所以這也是為什麼我覺得主觀要先要定在這個這一款的原因但至於要不要明知真的大家可以討論這我倒是沒有那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
6559.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
6559.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
6588.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
6604.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
改成故意好不好?就很明確故意可以好,那我們今天達成共識了,謝謝三個黨團我們改為故意,謝謝全部達成共識,我現在等一下要宣讀一下黃主任秘書,可以喘一口氣了趕快協商解讀給我,快快快 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
6620.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
6622.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那以後要改實名字就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
6655.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
6668.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
好,各位黨團幹部、各位內閣的閣員那我現在來念一下我們協商結論請大家保持肅靜請保持肅靜重要的協商結論我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
6671.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
6690.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們今天協商的主題是並按審查行政院含情審議臺灣民眾黨黨團及陳廷飛等16委員分別凝聚《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》二、何新淳等21位立委凝聚《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
6691.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
6715.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們現在協商結論一、協商通過小一、照行政院提案通過第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條、第五十七條、小二、照協商條文通過第二十條、二十四條、二十五條、第四十四條、第四十九條如附件二、通過附帶決議三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
6717.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
6731.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
三、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過其中第二項附帶決議不予處理四、委員提案及相關修正動議均列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
6733.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
6760.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
五、補充立法說明如附件．六、各黨團同意王美惠委員、徐宇貞委員、羅廷維委員、蘇巧惠委員、蔡易瑜委員等．分別說您《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》等五案．從委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並案．在本次協商會議處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
6761.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
6764.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這就是我們今天的協商結論我已經簽了 請各位黨團依序來我們簽名 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
6789.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
6812.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
跟各位黨團報告現在簽字的時候也跟各位閣議員報告我們現在開始審理第二案協商主題嚴商洗錢防制法修正草案我們現在在現場參與協商的有我們來介紹一下貴賓其他的請可以我們法務部的黃長賜歡迎您司法院的黃副秘書長歡迎您經管會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
6813.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
6838.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
彭主委 歡迎您 還有一個協防隊數位發展部的黃部長歡迎您 內政部的張視察歡迎您警政署的刑事警察局 歡迎您移民署的魏視察 移民署的 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
6841.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
6850.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
財政部的謝祕書,歡迎您財政部官務署的郭副組長經濟部商業發展署的莊副組長,歡迎您衛福部的政風處的蔡副處長,歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
6872.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
6874.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
中央銀行金融業務檢察處 謝副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
6907.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
6912.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
現在要報告一下我們洗錢防制法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
6926.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
6945.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
本案施法及法制委員會並按審查行政院提案及台灣民進黨黨團、郭國文等十六位委員提案等四案,審查情形,審查於一百一三年六月三日審查完略,審查結果第五條第二十四條保留,其餘均照審查結果通過,並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商。 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
6950.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
6960.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
令院會將林怡瑾等二十位委員及蔡易瑜等十六位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
6962.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
6985.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
目前協商的情形跟各位黨團報告一、民進黨團於六月二十八日召集協商由鍾嘉斌召集委員主持二、協商結果第五條協商內容通過第二十四條照行政院提案通過第十九條保留其餘均照審查會審查結果通過並新增附帶決議一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
6987.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
7006.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
協商結論並未完成簽署本日協商我們就先就保留條文進行討論如果各位委員對於審查會通過及先前協商有共識之條文有意見待保留條文處理完畢之後我們再接續處理請問各位黨團幹部有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
7008.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
7015.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
現在要增加台灣民眾黨黨團再增加第五條修正動議也跟各位黨團報告幹部來報告一下保留條文一條第十九條我們先請提議保留的台灣民眾黨黨團表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
7041.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
7060.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝院長那個院長我先確認一下我們現在先處理第五還第十九第十九OK那個跟各位院長各位參與協商的委員還有行政部門的機關代表說明我們在委員會審查的時候其實說明過就是說針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
7065.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
7087.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
一億以上的重大洗錢行為我們事實上在這一次的修法當中只加了一個最低的刑度是一年以上本來全部的是七年以下沒有加最低的刑度那這一次改按照不同的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
7089.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
7116.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我們等於是在法條的結構上分成了兩級我們先講一億以下的一億以下的事實上就是六個月以上五年以下這個我們沒意見但是在一億以上的如果我們現在修正只是一上七下的話事實上對於這種重大洗錢的行為它的罰則是沒有辦法產生足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
7118.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
7143.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
跟他的罪責相應的刑罰我為什麼這樣說我分成幾個層次的理由來說明第一個我國法院所有的刑度法官在量刑的時候都是從minimum開始加你如果是一年以上有期徒刑他大概就說一年往上一年一個月、一年兩個月、一年三個月你大概判決看得夠多 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
7145.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
7158.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你會很清楚發現這樣子的一個pattern。那第二個,針對這一次的打詐專法當中,我們針對有關於詐欺所得的金額,我們事實上針對一億以上, |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
7160.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
7184.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
是有加重的我們一億以上我們臺灣民進黨黨團所提的再修正動議是五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑那也感謝其他各個黨團的支持在委員會審查的時候就已經通過了所以針對有關於我們在這一次打詐的這幾個法律當中針對詐欺的行為是直接拉 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
7186.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
7210.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
一以上的是五年以上十二年以下因此我們真覺得就是如果針對一以上的論其實際論其實際在這一次的洗房法裡面是根本沒有什麼刑度上面的更動的話我們覺得沒有辦法去遏制這種重大洗錢的行為第三個部分事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
7211.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
7238.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
三年以上十年以下是我們建議的刑度因為我們心裡面知道法官在量刑的時候從來就不是從中間值開始的美國他們在量刑的時候是從中間值開始然後有一個他們的會發佈一個sentencing guideline就是量刑基準表它有各種不同的形狀往上往下但台灣幾乎都是從下從minimum開始再往上加 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
7239.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
7243.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
而這樣我們所規定的刑度會過重嗎?我跟各位報告,其實不會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
7260.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
7279.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
在美國聯邦法裡面違反美國聯邦洗錢罪違反美國聯邦法的洗錢罪最高刑度是二十年那當然大家會說怎麼可能會判到最高刑度所以我就跟大家報告中間值他們的中間值判出來是八十個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
7280.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
7294.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
八十個月將近是七年將近是七年那你說這一種一億以上的重大的洗錢行為真的會在搞這種事情的是誰?一定都是有組織的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
7295.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
7310.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
因為你自己一個人要搞到這個金額也不是那麼容易的事情所以我們真的會建議說針對我們這一次在打詐專法裡面除了詐欺這一邊要加重處罰之外相應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
7315.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
7331.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
導致很多的犯罪他們的不法所得在處理的重大洗錢的行為的刑度應該要往上拉而不是只有維持現在的最高刑度多加一個一年以上遊戲圖形而已以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
7333.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
7360.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
謝謝提案的臺灣民進黨黃國昌總召的說明接下來請鍾嘉斌召委請說明好謝謝因為這個保留條文其實已經其實是沒有保留啦照行政院通過但是協商的時候要保留重新保留那我說明一下還是要請法務部清楚的說明因為剛剛黃總召所提的個點我們在協商的時候也討論很久那要回過頭來看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
7362.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
7383.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
條文版你們原來條文是四條他說有第二條各款所列洗錢行為者處七年以下有期徒刑七下併科新台幣五百萬以下是罰金那現在呢這個七年不動但是呢加個一年以上併科新台幣一億你們現在加重的部分是七年以下的部分你們加個一年以上然後呢併科一億的罰金這裡面都有加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
7384.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
7399.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
然後你們說前項未遂犯罰資你們後面加的後段是說未達一億元的未達一億元的是六個月以上五年以下等於說你們的說明我看後來民眾黨的修正通也接受了書寫方式將舉證責任反過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
7402.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
7419.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
要對方證明他的這個金額未達一億元以上才能適用較低的刑期就六億元以上五年以下的但是這裡面有個第三項原條有個第三項你們前二項情形不得刻意超過其犯其特定犯罪所定最重本刑之刑其實你們在後來這個最後這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
7421.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
7421.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
7448.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
7474.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
麻煩請法務部黃成長請說明主席各位委員大家好首先我們這次就一億以上的洗錢我們並不是沒有加重我們把它的樓地板從一年往上調所以最低它要從一年往上開始量刑最高當然還是七年而且它併加罰金的部分我們已經從原來五百萬提高到一億新台幣所以就這一個超過一億的洗錢的部分我們是有提高並不是沒有提高這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
7475.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
7503.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
第二點我們一直在強調就是說洗錢它要保障的法益到底是什麼洗錢它要保障法益要跟它原來的那個前置犯罪我們要分開來看我們現在洗錢有個特性前置犯罪有可能是很輕的罪只要六個月以上的罪或一些劣跡很輕的罪但是它後面犯的洗錢的金額是很大的這個時候前面的罪如果是很輕的罪甚至是處罰金的一些賭博的罪它洗錢的金額稱為億 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
7504.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
7523.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他的洗錢的介紹意義,他洗錢必須要被處以三年以上但是那個主嫌反而是要處罰進行這個有沒有就是說我們所謂的法律上失衡的部分當然委員提的意見也非常好是洗錢可悟還是原來犯那個前置犯罪人可悟這當然各有見解但就法務的立場來講洗錢它畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
7525.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
7542.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
它是有一個附屬性的概念你犯了一個主罪你犯貪污你犯毒品之後你去洗錢所以洗錢它基本上概念上它是有附屬性的概念所以它的刑度不應該要重於原來的前置犯罪我們的基本概念是這樣那為什麼我們要把十四條原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
7544.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
7571.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
第三項把他拿掉呢我們原來第三項甚至規定你洗錢犯的罪的判的刑不能重於原來的獨立犯罪不可以告一他但是因為最近我們整個國際洗錢的思維產生變化他認為洗錢他不是在不再是一個獨立的不再是個附屬的犯罪他把獨立他要保障的是那個金流本身而不是你前置犯罪你隱匿那個金流本身就可惡所以要這叫做洗錢的獨立性的概念所以我們為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
7572.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
7589.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因應國際的潮流．所以我們把十四條第三項把它說你判洗錢罪不能重於原來的犯罪這個條文把它拿掉了但是基本上它的洗錢的本質上它還是有它的附屬性這一點性質上、定性上是不會有改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
7590.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
7615.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
第三點,我們這次洗錢的這個條文我們跟原來已經產生一些過程要先做一些改變了我們用的文則是洗錢的財物超過一億換句話說不是用犯罪所得超過一億是洗錢的金額超過一億這句話什麼意思我犯了一個貪圖案罪他的犯罪所得也許只有一千萬但是我加入我合法的金流去洗之後他超過一億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
7617.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
7644.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
這個時候你還是要落入重罪喔他的犯罪所得只有一千萬但他加入他合法的金流的九千萬之後他洗錢的金額其實是一億的所以換句話說這樣子構成要再改變之後他很容易超過一億的很容易超過一億這第二點要跟各位委員報告第四點報告是實務上的一些看法為什麼呢洗錢最容易誰被處罰到都是那個主嫌的至親啦你太太你的配偶 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
7645.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
7657.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這才會辦、我們書上都是辦這些人以後會變成一個很奇怪的現象他的老公犯了一個輕罪叫老婆去洗錢老公判的刑是輕的但老婆反而要處三到十年的罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
7659.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
7681.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這就是我們比較顧慮的就是說這個權衡上是私衡所以我們就取其中所以希望把它樓地板提高你洗錢你最低從一年往上量刑來取它的中間法律的均衡以上補充謝謝謝謝黃次長的報告接下來我們請司法院事務的黃也是黃副副理事長今天是黃氏中經會都姓黃 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
7686.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
7711.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
主席、各位委員關於洗錢的行為提高這部分當然是刑事政策讓我們尊重大院跟主管機關這說明當然剛才主管也有提到說這跟前接的特定犯罪之間的刑度的形成性的關係當然也請大院能夠做斟酌當然如果說刑事政策對洗錢的意義已經不是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
7711.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
7715.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
在事後犯的這種刑刑而應該獨立的話,那麼我們也尊重。謝謝。好,再請黃國昌總召請發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
7722.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
7750.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我想剛剛法務部的代表第一點講得非常的清楚我們為什麼會把第三項刪掉過去第三項把洗錢當成是一個附屬的行為這個思潮在現在國際上面針對於洗錢的管制跟處罰這個想法被淘汰掉了這是為什麼在修法理由當中你們為什麼砍掉第三項講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
7751.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
7775.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
洗錢犯罪跟錢治犯罪是不同的犯罪行為（它的保護法意是建立在社會經濟秩序的維護．跟國家主權安定的確保．防止犯罪組織藉由將黑錢洗成乾淨的錢．如此使得避免犯罪組織再度獲得滋養．而危害社會秩序或金融秩序． |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
7777.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
7797.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
正是因為這個樣子﹐我們很清楚的去界定洗錢罪的保護法役﹐跟前置犯罪的保護法役是兩件事我覺得我們在討論事情的時候﹐這個前提先把它說清楚那第二個﹐你們說樓地板﹐本來是七年以下有起徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
7798.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7820.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
針對一億以上的你們多加一個樓地板是一年以上有期徒刑我真的必須要老實講針對我國的重大洗錢犯罪我到目前為止看到的判決真的判得太輕了啦真的判得太輕了啦也正是因為這個樣子那些人才會囂張嘛才會囂張嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7824.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7845.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你針對一億以上的我就具體的問目前剛剛黃次長似乎是認為說因為那個定義的改變所以一億以上的很容易達成真的嗎你以按照你們目前所偵辦的犯罪它佔的比例有多重這個是我的第一個問題第二個等一下是不是可以請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7846.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7863.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
跟大家講一下目前在司法院的統計裡面我們去判洗錢罪的平均的刑度是多重也讓大家瞭解一下因為針對詐欺也好針對洗錢也好就判太輕這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7864.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7881.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
是我們在有關於推動整個打詐相關的法案抑制詐欺犯罪、洗錢犯罪的這件事情我們從基層聽到非常強烈這樣的聲音今天就詐欺的犯罪行為一以上的我們在打詐專法拉到五到十二 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7882.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7908.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我覺得這個某個程度上可以回應社會上對這件事情的期待跟大家的憤怒與不滿但相對的就有關於洗錢的部分七年以下有期徒刑那你只多增加一個樓地板一億以上的一年以上七年以下我真的覺得啦我真的覺得這樣子的一個修正對於重大的洗錢犯罪沒有辦法讓他獲得應該有的刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7910.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7911.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
今天其實我在看這個條文我相信大家內心都會有糾結 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7932.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7957.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
主跟父之間這個就像我們今天早上司法法治委員會裡面我們那個脫逃罪我們要把它提升到三年那我舉的例子是我跟黃某信次長我們兩個來打一打架打完你告我你會覺得告了也沒意思啊檢察官去就搞不好一萬五千塊就給我繳保啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7958.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7985.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那我就覺得五千塊交保沒什麼我就來賺錢就好了我來賺五千塊罰一罰或者是受傷的把他處罰掉這個法院傳票來我就覺得沒有時間啦哪有時間我們都和解掉啦私底下都講好啦那好啦可是呢法院來啦我也不去開庭啦我棄保啊我哪有棄保我主觀上也不是要棄保就形式上客觀上我看起來我就是棄保我也沒有檢討啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7987.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
8015.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我是台積電來我們這個地方在設廠我去工作努力賺錢後我變成要三年那如果我們兩個去和解掉了我甚至於法官在審判的時候直接把我不受理掉啦是我們這罪行我們都在拉高都在拉高我知道立法院我們大家委員的這些立法理由裡面講得很清楚對這一些這個犯罪啊或者脫逃啊大家都很痛恨沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
8017.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
8025.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
可是我今天早上除了問了法務部以外我特別問了司法院司法院的看法是很接地氣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
8026.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
8047.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
說這一些其實就也不曉得該怎麼辦就是立法院裡面自己去做決定所以我倒要想再看看就是說想再請教啦黃國昌委員剛提到說這個世界上這個洗錢這個失潮的觀念在改變這個我可以認同但問題是說全世界的立法院裡面我們有沒有再去跟他做一個比較有沒有像這麼重 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
8050.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
8074.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
真的啊,這個有時候關到最後啊有時候是老公去賭博或者是做一些比較輕的罪犯罪所得一大堆怎麼關到老婆關到親戚關到小孩這個社會上也到最後我會覺得也很奇怪啊所以是不是大家再考慮一下尤其是你像這樣子你刑法一提這個一拉高以後拉高以後你這個以後連緩刑的機會也都沒有欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
8076.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
8090.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
也都會沒有欸那是不是請這個司法院或者法務分再說明一下就是說全世界各國的立法力有拉到這麼高的那我們再來做一個比較看看這樣會不會在立法院這邊大家在審的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
8091.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
8115.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
會覺得不要說這個洗錢的世界上的一些一個思維的一個改變只有我們立法院、立法委員改變我們可以接受那民眾也會覺得你怎麼改變我也都不知道啊我也都不知道啊以上我提這一些我都很怕失衡啦這個要加重的道理大家都知道這個其實都是要遏止這樣的一個犯罪可是就是重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
8116.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
8135.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們剛剛不是也協商過了嗎﹖像那個剛提到那個電信業者那個也是一樣啊﹖就重的反而你罰清﹖然後該科與這個偵察機關更強的義務﹖或者說手機持有著你的義務﹖你自己的那個門號都﹖或者說身份證借人家亂去申請﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
8137.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
8143.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
然後偵察機關自己偵察不力（到最後是科技電信業者（我們剛剛也覺得這樣不太合理（才去做一個協商那以現在這樣子貿然去通過的話（會不會有失衡的問題我很想請行政部門再給我們提醒一下就是說是不是全世界各國的立法律到底是怎麼樣因為我從這陣子在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
8158.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
8179.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
你們這些很多的立法不管是去抄德國、學德國、學日本我後來都發現你們都給人家抄一半害我辦公室一直對、對、對、對到最後我會發現那奇怪的你都衝了一半所以我的意思就是說這個真的要再慎重一下因為我很怕輕重失衡到最後法律效果出來以後整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
8180.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
8206.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
整個社會還有環境宣告的部分也請說明一下謝謝中央選委發言接下來請柯建民總召請發言我想今天在討論這個法案我們過去也都知道不管專家、營養法超過一億以上的加州嘛變成一到七年嘛那有關於這個洗錢的問題當然剛才黃志成講很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
8208.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
8235.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
當然黃昌偉有講說《刑事犯罪》法律不同當然《刑事犯罪》這個有頭輕腳重的問題當然《刑事犯罪》的問題變成只有法律上的顛倒倒是我的看法就是說我們昨天在審查這個《詐欺危害防制法》有對於矚謀嘛 都是加重嘛我們就是矚謀加重嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
8238.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
8266.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
洗錢有、詐欺有的是車手嘛﹖車手當然是有不同層次的嘛﹖車手和這個主謀都是不一樣的這個型度嘛﹖所以有關於就是三、四十四一例加重詐欺應該是主謀﹖一以上的都是主謀﹖我還認為就是說﹖我們在過去審查這個刑事防制法的時候﹖我們有一個洗錢法的單獨沒收嘛﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
8268.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
8290.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你洗錢可以單獨沒收,那是另外一個,獨立的單獨沒收,所以你把你的錢全部扣出來,扣下來,這只要洗錢當然把他所洗的錢不管你多少,你的這個財產可能是洗錢來的,也可能不是,但是全部可以扣到沒收,因為有可能都是全部扣到沒收嘛,這刑法已經改了嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
8292.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
8320.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我還是大家要討論一下就是說有很多不同的樣態莊永恆講的沒有錯啦棄保潛牢也是有一樣的嘛他棄保潛牢很重但是他主席不見得說要怎麼辦所以這些都是有法院上面的一些衝突以及大家要好好思考我應該尊重法務部和這個司法院的意見和看法好不好事務長是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
8322.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
8322.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
主席、各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
8339.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
8363.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
剛剛有提到立法律的部分,但我目前沒有立法律的刑度該是多少。但這條會修其實是因為我們在APG的第三輪評鑑的時候有涉及到我們國家洗錢的嚇阻性,他認為不夠,所以我們來修這個法。他倒不是說我們法律的這個刑度不夠,嚇阻性是指良刑的結果,嚇阻性不夠。所以我們訂了一個最低的一個樓地版分卡,讓他的這個刑度稍微提高一點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
8364.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
8387.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
第二點就是有關於定到三到十年另外純粹法律適用上會產生一個問題就是說除非他是符合另外有構成刑法五十九條的檢刑事由要不然他是沒有辦法宣告緩刑的因為緩刑他的實際上宣告刑兩年以下才有緩刑的機會換句話說沒有法官定五十九條這個洗錢的被告他勢必就必須要入監服刑這是第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
8387.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
8415.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
第三點,剛剛黃委員有提到這個一億元的計算的部分我們是這樣子想啦會來就是說你會洗錢的金額洗錢的金額達到一億基本上它是一個很大的集團所以它的合法的金流其實也蠻大的加入金我意思說很容易超過一億意思是什麼它合法的金流再加上非法的金流它本身合法金流就大再加上一個非法金流也許不是這麼大它就會超過一億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
8415.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
8431.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以這部分去操縱洗錢再超過一億去論罪的話,未來是容易成立的。相對於舊法的犯罪所得是容易成立的。那以上補充在這裡。黃國昌總統意思是在根據實務上這樣超過一億的,您的經驗法則裡面有多少大概? |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
8432.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
8435.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
黃國昌總長,您稍等一下,還有司法院,我的意思是他已經先答覆,等一下有問題再說,我們請司法院黃副院長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
8458.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
8470.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
主席、各位委員,比較法上面的例子,我們現在手上也沒有,那看主管機關那邊好像也沒有,那可能要事後再蒐集,那關於法院量刑的這些情況, |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
8472.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
8487.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那我先跟各位報告因為在現行的法制上面因為洗錢案件常常都會跟其他這個犯罪會有那個進而的情形那一些比較嚴重的情形即可能已經構成其他的犯罪而被吸收掉了那單獨就洗錢、構成洗錢單獨犯罪這部分我們現在手上面目前有的統計資料裡面確實當然因為目前抓到很大部分都是車手這些比較單純的所以當然他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
8500.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
8521.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
大概絕大部分是在一年以下有期徒刑但是也有抓到比較嚴重的情形底下的話我們也有判到像去年的話大概判到三年到五年之間的有六件有六件判到三年到五年的那大概一年到兩年之間大概五十件 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
8523.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
8539.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
目前看到判過最重的大概在五年到七年之前也曾經判過事件這樣子這個目前我們的這個手邊的這些統計資料當然如果說為了要達到這個二指的這些行刑提高這些我們刑度的話我想我們司法院當然是尊重大院的這個職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
8541.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
8561.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
謝謝 謝謝 接下來黃國昌委員發言 傅坤祺總召請準備當然啦 那個兩個主管機關要再去找其他的立法律也可以啦那我剛剛其實在第一輪發言就跟大家報告過美國聯邦洗錢罪規定在第十八章一千九百五十六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
8563.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
8575.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他的刑度最高二十年二十年那當然我們看不可以看最高刑度你要看平均看起來是怎麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
8576.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
8599.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
也正是因為這個樣子他們聯邦在針對犯罪實際上面所做的統計出來的結果上因為講這個要負責任所以稍微等我一下下我把剛剛因為有一些紙本的東西我剛剛沒有把它印出來它的平均平均數是70到80個月70到80個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
8603.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
8616.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
當然他會按照聯邦量刑的基準還會再往上也會往下但我現在在講的是平均喔不是最高喔七十到八十個月那大家除以十二看看看起來是幾年他沒有定最低 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
8622.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
8644.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
對啦,但是喔,那個我要跟莊委員報告的事情是說,你如果真的要看最低的話,他們有一個量刑手冊,好幾百頁,然後就洗錢罪的部分你可以把它抽出來看,它有很多加重因子,很多減輕因子,那個range啦,我這樣講好了啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
8645.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
8671.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們的範圍大概在這裡他們範圍大概在這裡差別非常非常的大剛剛司法院在講說我們實際上面判出來的結果我不知道司法院看的是第幾年的資料但我現在要講的事情法務部應該很清楚因為是法務部違反洗錢防制案件的統計分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
8672.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
8693.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
依照法務部違反洗錢防制案罪的統計分析我跟大家說就針對違反洗錢防制的案子在一百零七年度到一百一十一年度就我們過去這幾年很嚴重的情況我現在不講詐欺就講洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
8695.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
8720.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
總共違反洗錢防制法的一萬一千五百四十四人其中一萬一千兩百三十三人是六個月以下有嫉妒心一萬一千五百四十四人裡面有一萬一千兩百三十三人是六個月以下有嫉妒心那代表什麼意思大概就一顆罰金就game over了 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
8722.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
8749.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那,針對這些人,你們剛剛所在顧慮到的啦,就是一些比較小的啦,沒那麼嚴重,幹嘛處罰那麼重,一些年輕人,就幾乎啦,全部都是落在,全部都落在這裡面。在一萬一千五百四十四人當中,六個月以上一年未滿的,一百九十六個人。一年以上兩年未滿的,九十七個人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
8751.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
8778.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
兩年以上的只有十七個人我們看完了這個刑度上面的分佈我相信大家應該不難了解為什麼社會上對於我們在不管是詐欺還是洗錢特別是重大洗錢的為什麼大家會覺得法院所判出來的刑度為什麼會這麼輕為什麼會這麼輕大家事實上是有很深很深 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8780.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8807.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
的民營院那這個是我們為什麼在這一次我再強調一次詐欺的部分我們在詐欺專法在打的詐專法五上十二下那也很感謝在委員會審查的時候就得到多數委員的支持在洗錢的這個部分一以上的你把七年以下有期徒刑再加一個樓地板一年以上有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8808.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8829.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我想司法院的代表也在這裡啊司法院的代表應該很清楚我國法官在量刑的時候不是從中間開始往上下調啦是從樓地板開始再往上下調所以我們為什麼三、三、九之四那個時候一年以上七年以下有期徒刑我們攤開來看大概都是一年一個月一年兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8831.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8856.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
一年三個月．審判實務上面就是這個樣子嘛．所以我們再拉回來看．針對洗錢．到一億以上的．我們樓地板給他訂三年以上有期徒刑．真的很重嗎．真的很重嗎好 謝謝寬寬昌總召的補充．接下來我們請傅坤祺總召請發言．鍾嘉斌委員請準備我想我們今天在 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8858.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8883.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
大家坐在這裡就是為了打詐釋法怎麼樣讓執法單位有更多的武器也讓處犯者有更多的警惕大家討論很久但是我們要特別對法務部剛剛表示的意見你講的完全正確但是有一個盲點我們現在針對的既然是打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8888.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8908.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
打詐他們是一個集團在集團裡面這並不是說是哪一個你又講到貪污自罪條例還講到其他我們現在完全是因為打詐他洗錢的這個金額才是龐大的會很龐大我們現在一年台灣被詐欺有多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8911.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8938.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
而且大概幾個這個這個做什麼湯啊這大概是臺中啊幾掛人這個大概都在社會上大家都有聽到現在要強調的就是你說這個影響到家人跟配偶事實上事實上啊我們純就打詐來講的話我們現在一直盲點叫一以上一以上法務部可以考慮一下一以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8940.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8968.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
在其他的面向的法律上面是不是都是七年以上有期徒刑一以上的不罰所得也有很多三年以上十年以下或七年以上加重等等那為什麼在這裡而且剛剛我覺得次長有講到一個你不斷帶一個盲點說他的合法金額是多少然後他的非法金額是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8970.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8992.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
當然是算它的非法金額而且它既然是合法金額有什麼好洗的非法所得才是洗錢嘛那現在就是說到底這個是洗錢一億還是不法所得一億以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8995.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
9023.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
剛剛你有講到就是說這個由家人的戶頭然後最後它的合法的是多少非法可能只有一千萬那合法的超過九千萬然後最後變成一以上這是完全兩個概念並不是這樣這完全不是這樣因為我們一直強調是所得非法所得非法所得的部分所以現在到底我們打造事法要帶來就是這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
9025.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
9049.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
犯罪集團,你說現在車手齁,這個行業現在很夯啊,非常夯啊,現在年輕人有很多他可以當車手,哇這個所得這麼高,現在已經變成一個通病了,所以我們今天竟然要花這麼多時間討論打詐司法,要有足夠的嚇阻的力量,而且我一再強調, |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
9051.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
9073.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
如果改成三年以上的話﹖是他的不罰所得的金額﹖比方說這個洗錢集團﹖他把你洗一億元﹖他可能是拿多少﹖兩趴﹖可能兩百萬﹖他每一天進出的金額很大﹖可能一天的不罰的金額﹖可能就好幾千萬所得﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
9077.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
9103.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以我們現在應該討論的是這個問題我們不要再去強調說他合法的金額是多少、非法的金額是多少我們一直在強調就是他的非法所得是多少好不好這才是我們在focus的重點好不好謝謝富坤祺總召發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員再次發言好感謝我想我們這裡一直在談洗錢洗錢到底真實的樣貌是什麼請問主席我們在場有刑事警察局的同仁在嗎沒有嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
9106.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
9133.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
副局長我待會描述一下你幫我印證一下目前我們說的洗錢大家去想像什麼是洗錢洗錢就是把一些現金來源不明的或者有犯罪的我透過跟其他的現金雜流之後我再透過銀行的賬戶讓他查不出來源叫洗錢實務上我大概知道在我的接觸的選民服務或接觸的來陳述的陳情人當中大概有幾種現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
9135.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
9157.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
會用大量流動現金的第一個就是我們的職業賭場這是我們覺得要抓的那職業賭場他有大量的組織流動他要怎麼合理化這些犯罪所得他要有水房但是水房如果通通是職業賭場附設的水房他沒有辦法解釋這麼多的現金所以實務上有這樣的情況不知道是不是外籍移工經常會做非法打工 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
9158.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
9184.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
非法打工的所得都是現金所以有些業者、水房他幫外籍移工這樣的打工的現金他要做匯兌今晚會主委在這裡實務上是存在的因為我們的友善金融外籍移工在台灣他要做拿到了台灣的青台幣要匯回母國很多都是透過水房所以很多專營外籍移工這些匯兌的這些集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
9186.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
9210.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
進出的金額多．他就連同掩護他職業賭場的賭資這是一種另外一種會現金交易的是什麼．大家可能想像不到資源回收資源回收業者拍糖骨蝦．絕對是現金交易這些實荒的人受到資源回收業者來講．他一定現金給你所以資源回收業者有大量的現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
9211.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
9240.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那這些現金也可能透過這樣的一個水房混雜在當中成為職業賭場的賭資的資金流通的來源所以當我們想像洗錢的時候我們要抓的是什麼就是這種水房的主持人他幫忙他透過幫外籍移工去做會隊他幫忙幫這些資源回收業者現金流通然後呢他加上結合賭資你看不出來他的樣貌所以每次我們看到新聞說沖水房沖水房就是抓這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
9241.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
9256.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
但是這還是現金的部分但是我們看實務上這些法條的差別原來的法條第十四條因為七年以下沒有樓地板很多都判六個月一顆罰金那麼什麼人會判六個月一顆罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
9257.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
9285.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這種水防的主持人可能如果沒有足夠的事證判一課罰金有可能是什麼?職場小白出出社會他可能把自己的帳戶給人家用那這種情況之下實際的良心通常會給他六個月通常會給他六個月因為很多來的都是這樣子年輕人不懂事帳戶給人家使用通常法官問名之後他只是一個單一的帳戶給人使用但是這個帳戶的使用金額會多少呢?大概不至於到一億啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
9286.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
9308.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以這次的修法大概有幾個重點,第一個它加個樓地板,杜絕了以後沒有一克罰金的這個刑度,就一億以上的,但是一億以下的職艙小白還是維持六個月有一克罰金的機會,我們犯罪打擊是要抓手惡放小矛頭, |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
9309.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
9333.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你會發現在我們的陳情當中有那種職場小白的判得很重來找我們也有那種被詐欺很多結果守謀判很輕的這兩種對象都是我們要對付的所以我們的立法部門就要想辦法讓守惡可以得到他應有的嚴懲但是也要讓這些小白不至於連置信的機會都沒有所以後來的說法一億以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
9334.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
9363.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
一年以上、七年以下一億以下的小白大概就是六個月到五年這裡給予法官可以著個案去衡量現在如果我們做了這個區隔之後應該就不會有職場小白因為這樣子會一年以上或三年以上三年跟年差別是什麼?剛剛講得很清楚了二年以上就不能做緩刑宣告了所以我知道加到三年之後就表示什麼?一億以上的沒有緩刑的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
9364.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
9378.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
但是兩年有沒有機會?一年有沒有機會?樓地板在一年、兩年跟三年的法律效果就是對一以上的這些守謀啊讓它沒有緩行宣告我想這是三年以上、十年以下的目的但是金管主委在這裡我要提醒一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
9379.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
9404.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
如果是這樣的話,這個三年以上跟一年以上差別在哪裡?首先,他不會一克罰金,一年以上就不能一克罰金。三年以上不得會緩行宣告。那接下來的洗錢會從職昌小白變成金融從業人員。因為金融從業人員如果去涉入了洗錢的業務,他的金額絕對不是職昌小白一個賬戶給你流通個幾百萬而已,一定一下子就是上億。 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
9406.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
9423.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那所以未來可以想像法院會遇到的什麼?遇到的這些金融從業人員因為犯了洗房法這第十九條他的內容算起來金額達到一億以上但是他沒有怎樣?沒有二年以下的緩刑的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
9424.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
9436.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那這個時候快是才要頭痛了經營管委員要頭痛了我講一個例子讓大家知道我們在哪裏的分寸的哪裏我們固此會失比舉一個例子大法庭在幾年前針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
9440.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
9460.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
以債務人為名的要保人的保單給予債權人可以申請強制執行當年這個大法庭的裁定我猜想很多惡性倒帳的人他跟人家借了很多的錢轉換成保單、儲蓄保單、高額保單然後名下沒有財產結果債權人要去強制執行沒有房地產可以執行一大堆保單 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
9462.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
9476.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這些保單都是他實際的財產後來大法庭為了針對這樣的惡性倒帳所以規定以債務人為名的要保人的保單可以讓債權人去申請強制執行但是過了兩年後發生什麼事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
9477.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
9503.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
故然這些惡性倒帳的大概不敢再用保單來轉移、脫產了但是發生了一堆退休的、將借退的他的健康保險、醫療險、癌症險的保單也不過五、六張強制解約可能拿不到五、六萬他欠的錢可能一、兩百萬結果紛紛被債權人以要求強制執行將他之後他也名下也沒有車也沒有房他靠這個保單出了病他要靠這個醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
9505.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
9514.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
兩、三百萬價值的保單．已經沒有辦法買到年輕時的費率保單．健康型的保單．因此被強制解約後．解約金也不過三、五萬不到十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
9515.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
9543.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這樣一個大法庭才是本來用意是要對付那些惡性的導障可是當時做了這個決定之後忘了後半段對於那些弱勢的部分沒有了保障所以要提醒當我們做一個刑度的決定的時候不要只看我們的主要目標要看它可能波及影響了其他的非主要目標它可能會受到影響所以我在這裡很慎重提出來如果說我們現在是用法務部的版本一年以上七年以下它的效果就是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
9544.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
9561.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
不得一克罰金那我認為這個合理因為一億以上的不可能是紙糖小白的問題但是可能是金融從業人員的問題但是你調告到三年以上他就沒有兩年以下的緩刑宣告的裁量餘地了就沒有這個良心餘度了這時候就強迫法院一旦拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
9563.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
9582.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個金融業的從業人員、協助、洗錢、超額以上的通通要入監服刑所以這個因為還沒有發生所以我們沒有想像但是一旦這個定了之後可能金管會就要開始來面對這個問題我們為了保單強制執行解約最近好不容易才有保險局協助將八類的保單列為不得強制執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
9583.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9606.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
非受險類的﹐非儲蓄型的﹐而是保障型的﹐癌症險、健康險、醫療險﹐而且金額在十萬以內的﹐我們就不得列為強制執行﹐以保障這些弱勢的債務人﹐但是我們還是要堅決的去處罰這些惡性重大的、倒帳的債務人﹐那我是希望未來的良心上﹐不只是法務要表示意見﹐金管會要想清楚﹐我們洗錢防制法最大的可能來源是什麼﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9611.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9629.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
以後這個加上去洗錢會有銀行帳號最多容易上下洗手是什麼?金融用成員人員三年以上以後第一次犯一億以上沒有緩刑的餘地沒有緩刑的餘地一年以上有緩刑的餘地但不可一顆罰金所以這個部分我是覺得金管會跟法務部你們要慎重其餘量去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9630.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9630.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
是希望說﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9652.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9671.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是希望說可以在這一輪就把這個做一個定案然後因為討論這麼久也非常的透徹那我覺得我們要回到委員會因為今天我們如果直接以台灣民眾黨黨團的委員會的這一這個paper修正動議那我們直接看審查會通過版本然後再 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9672.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9672.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9694.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9708.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
能不能夠有效嚇阻呢?其實去對應我會覺得對應我們在委員會第一次看到這個新版本修正的時候現行的條文現行的條文沒有樓地板對不對就直接七年然後五百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9709.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9724.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
然後我們把第三項拿掉了那是跟上這個國際的組織的規範如果回到原始條文的比較的這個時候其實就可以看出我們要遏止犯罪加重刑度的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9725.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9740.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但現在如果就民眾黨版提出來的這個審查會通過的版本要再加碼再去看它的第十九條的修正動議其實某種程度我們在遺忘了本來就已經提高刑度的那個思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9740.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9762.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以我非常同意剛剛幾位委員的討論我們在做任何的刑度的我們要入法對立法委員很簡單我的數字填一填大家有一個基本的論述可是我們要打擊的主要目標也不要去誤傷很多他不是那麼惡性重大的無辜者所以那個橫評是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9763.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9788.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以希望我覺得回到原始的修法就是現行條文跟修正後的條文我們認為有沒有加重?有可不可以達到一致的效果?我認為會而且可以精準打擊主婦有別所以橫平性是很重要的所以我希望大家可以很慎重很理性其實修法加重行動真的我們修法不要那麼民粹啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9789.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9794.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我覺得審查會通過的版本是經過我們深思熟慮,請大家支持好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9801.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9821.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那個報告所有的更好那剪短來謝謝因為喔再想一下因為昨天的有關於這個詐欺危害防制法2394嘛最主要最主謀嘛那你這個是連前置犯罪那個全部來嘛那剛才中山英委員講很清楚請大家思考一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9823.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9837.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
報告所有黨團幹部跟各位所有閣員建會主委你下午兩點半你還是要參加我們兩點半要繼續好不好好那個彭主委請補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9840.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9859.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
有關這一條我們還有第五條其實我們沒有爭議這部分應該是保留應該我們都同意剛剛那個部分的話我們剛剛就是該中委員提到一些顧慮我們過去我們也就是比較沒有思考到這一點因為我們討論原來沒有討論到不過剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9861.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9861.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
王國昌總裁,請 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9882.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9900.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那今晚會主委下午還會來嗎對嘛我這樣說好了啦金融機構的人涉入洗錢這是何其嚴重的事情外國法怎麼罰的啊外國法怎麼罰的啊我相信金管會很清楚啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9900.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9922.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
中加兵委員很擔心說我們的金融從業人員涉入洗錢很容易就會洗超過一億然後給他三年最低的有期徒刑連假釋的機會都沒有真的是太那個了我相信臺灣的金融機構我們的金融從業人員會涉入洗錢的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9924.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9944.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那個案件到目前為止有多少金融機構的人員因為涉入洗錢而被起訴的我相信那個數字非常非常的低要不然在臺灣早就成為超級大新聞了那是不是下午請金管會主委來的時候把宗嘉斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9945.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9945.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
三、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9969.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9979.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
就是被起訴的整理給大家看看看看是不是按照他的那個犯罪行為的太陽跟他的惡性我們需要擔心這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9980.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9981.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好 謝謝各位黨黨幹部 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
10002.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
10011.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
好謝謝各位黨團幹部熱烈的發言各位所有列席的閣員各位官員我們上午協商到此為止下午兩點半繼續協商我們現在休息謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
16458.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
16479.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
非常非常感謝各位黨團的所有的黨團幹部現在我們列席的官員有一點調整我再來宣布一下我們非常歡迎法務部的黃政務次長,歡迎司法院的黃副秘書長,歡迎您經管會的彭主委,歡迎數位發展部的林政務次長,歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
16481.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
16507.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
國家傳播委員會的黃文哲黃祖密歡迎您內政部地政司的張世察內政部有列名的等一下到了之後再說內政部警政署刑事警察局林副局長歡迎您內政部移民署的魏世察歡迎財政部許專門委員謝專門委員對不起謝專門委員歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
16510.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
16526.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
財政部官務署 國副組長 歡迎經濟部商業發展署 莊副組長 歡迎您衛生福利部政風處的蔡副處長 歡迎中央銀行金融業務檢察處的謝副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
16529.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
16544.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
歡迎,好,那麻煩請金管會彭主委針對我們上一個部分所討論的十九條金融從業人員這個黃國昌總召所提的還有其他委員所提的,麻煩請做個簡短二要說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
16545.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
16574.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
市議院長、各位委員長,承蒙早上隨巡的有關金融業現在過去因為違反洗錢防制法的一個案例經過我們早上回去中午去查詢的結果過去銀行在最近幾年只有兩個案例兩個案例有兩個行員因為勾結這個詐團去因為這樣而被起訴另外的話在有關這個會計師部分是過去五年是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
16576.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
16581.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
有關虛擬資產的那個VASP的話是一百零八年就是王牌交易所那案 以上就沒有了 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
16583.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
16583.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
法務部黃征務長 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
16614.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
16620.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個比較法上相關的規定第一個,你剛所講的那兩個行員跟那個詐團勾結的,現在的階段是只有起訴還是有判第一審出來? |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
16642.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
16665.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
現在是起訴,他起訴的罪名是包括加重詐欺跟洗錢還是連組織都有?加重詐欺、洗錢跟組織三個嘛那反正最後組織跟洗錢就會被想像淨核掉最後用加重詐欺判嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧,廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
16668.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
16674.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
請司法院請答覆所以我們現在並沒有什麼年輕的行員就一下無知透過銀行去洗錢我們到目前為止就是這兩個人嘛處於起訴的階段嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
16688.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
16700.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
包括就以現在的我們現在有的案例就是我們現在收集到是這兩個案例OK那第二個事情是你剛剛說我們現在要討論銀行的那你說也有參與王牌交易所的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
16701.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
16704.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
第二件事情是謝謝法務部我知道你們很辛苦在這麼短的時間當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
16729.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
16740.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我對德國法那邊的掌握,大概如同剛剛次長所講的大家也可以看得到,如果是一個比較重的,事實上是可以拉到十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
16741.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
16758.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我剛上午在講的美國法的案例是到二十年但我可以理解為什麼大家可能對於拉到山上跟石下是不是會誤傷無辜事實上我必須要老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
16759.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
16784.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
沒有什麼人有那個財力搞到洗到一億以上你談到這個數額的時候真的會搞到那個金額以上的事實上案子並不多但我現在試圖提出一個折衷的方向讓大家思考那個折衷的方向是說我們在有關於打詐專法的時候針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
16788.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
16788.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
因此﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
16814.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
16842.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我剛思考了一下另外一個可能的方向是我們在第一項就是說在本來現在在討論的十九條的地方十九條的地方一億以上的一億以上的我們維持我們維持就是現在法務部他們認為一個比較好的就是我們只要一上七下就好了但是增加第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
16843.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
16867.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
如果是以發起組織操縱指揮犯罪組織犯前項前段之罪所謂前項前段就是一樣我們不搞小的一億以上的你如果一億以上是用發起組織犯罪的方式去判的那針對那種比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
16869.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
16889.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
大型的組織形態的首腦就像剛剛次長所講的在德國法的第二級那樣子往上拉到山上石下我試圖啦就看大家因為我老實說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
16891.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
16917.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我真實的想法一以上的三上十下其實真的不會太重你只要考慮到現實上面的狀況我們法官在量刑的時候都是從最低開始往上想那只是說看要不要如果在黨團協商的過程當中大家真的覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
16918.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
16920.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
接下來我們請柯建民總召請發言好 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
16948.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
16962.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
國民在討論這一條的時候要了解2018的時候AVG洗錢防治組織第三輪的時候那時候我們被列為觀察名單是一個非常緊張危險的時刻因為要到 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
16963.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
16981.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
蔡英文總統執政以後我們才開始去好好的去面對洗錢防制法那洗錢防制法一修再修那我們1990年代從來沒有但是國際洗錢防制組織已經對我們的洗錢防制組織的所有的法有一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
16981.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
17007.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
然後假如我們第三輪沒有過的時候﹖會發生什麼﹖發生台灣是全球經濟孤島﹖包括你要廢情整個國家就完蛋了所以在這個時候大家要記得2018年的時候為了第三輪所以修了五個法又洗錢防制法指控防制法還有國際司法互助還有一個叫公司法到底要對公司的人要到第幾層 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
17009.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
17023.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那還有一個叫做……一個叫做中央團體排除,台灣法院法這五個法我們如有如足的修 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
17024.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
17041.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
當然是為了為了A、B、C第三輪嘛所以要考慮哪一個法修有多少分、哪一個法修有多少分所以公司法則說那時候沒有修到最嚴格的那時候課分不多那洗黃法、這個防制法一定要再修那以前沒有修的部分包括那種財產法案法 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
17042.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
17066.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那財源法和文法分為兩種,一種是屬於公家財源法和文法,一種是屬於私人財源法和文法。那私人財源法就當然管制程度是不一樣嘛,因為財源法也可以洗錢嘛。那最後判到一個最糾葛最大的就是宗教團體要不要納入。那把中央團體納入,那為了中央團體是我納入,引起很大風波嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
17067.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
17081.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以中央參議員排除掉,那時候我們排除掉。那時候我講這個就是說,我為了因為ABC是第三輪嘛,所以第三輪剛剛,因為完畢以後,他們對我們有一些堅硬的看法,而且我們修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
17082.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
17099.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
還要再繼續修也就是說現在第十四條它講的先兩項不得刻意超過其確定犯罪、鎖定罪行本行也就是說主從不能一致的當然這個法律上也不同因為刑事防制有兩種一個是個人財產的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
17102.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
17123.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
因為國家經濟知識的問題嘛所以法律上不同,他認為我們這樣修的法律師學校不對所以叫我們去改嘛,才有今天所謂這個東西大家講清楚但今天修出來的東西是比較多,法務部是把整個金額來計算一億以上今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
17124.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
17145.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
最大重點就在這裡我要請教黃國昌委員你那犯罪守則的疑義,早上分析也講說犯罪守則的疑義,那是犯罪守則的疑義,那是很大的因為我們這邊是金額超過疑義,但是他不會有六個以上、文以下,還有判緩性的機會好,我們現在發生這個問題的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
17148.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
17176.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
兩張分析也講過你想不想要一趴一個一趴你就一趴把人家你要弄到一億至少要一百次啊一百次,你只要翻的時候才能打到一億啊那現在這個就是有發生道德風險了我們現在這個例子,我們這樣是要幹什麼?那一億以下都可以翻掉嗎?這有極大高峰,我不知道現在七十五年有沒有一億以下,應該很多嘛是吧?因為他守則要差不多做一億要一百百 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
17178.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
17199.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對吧?所以,我不知道,因為你委員剛剛、荒唐委員今天在講這個問題說已經犯罪手、已經寫犯罪手了,這個可能有個案解套的問題。這個極大到手風險,所以要小心。我覺得你這個寫法不是A、B、C、O、9,我們您把這全部另轉過來。這一點我倒是有不同意見。那荒唐委員這樣說啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
17202.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
17215.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
主持犯罪那個頭頭三上十下但是你不要忘記你在我們詐欺犯罪法有關於刑法三十九之四 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
17217.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
17238.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
三九四是上一屆才修,已經加重,這次你再加重,OK沒有關係,一以上一以上吧,是五到十二年,那你今天這兩個邏輯就不通了既然要加重,你這邊要把一以下,你把一以下翻到自由道路風險這一點我們請大家注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
17240.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
17247.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
然後你所舉的什麼國外的案例我們只要符APG就可以了接下來我們再請黃國昌總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
17249.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
17271.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
先說明一下我們現在在討論的是我們的修正動議根本就不存在剛剛柯建民總召所存在那個問題上一次在委員會審查的時候討論過法務部解釋我們就把用語弄一字用語已經弄一字了嘛我們現在坐在這邊討論的就跟法務部的文字完全一字嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
17272.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
17295.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那在這樣的情況之下,你怎麼會又胡亂的去扯什麼個案解套、道德風險,根本就不存在這個問題嘛。沒有啦,你看一下我們現在在跑的條文嘛,就不一樣就不一樣啦,你現在怎麼這樣凹完。來來來來來來,唸。把我們的再修正東西的條文。沒有。我上面不是寫犯罪所的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
17302.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
17307.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
今天在討論的早就提出來了洗錢的財務或財產上利益你說錯了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
17320.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
17344.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你說錯了啦不是,今天上午交出來的版本上一次在委員會在協商的時候已經討論過了法務部解釋過了我們文字就一次了所以不存在剛剛柯建民總召所指的這件事我覺得這個事情很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
17345.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
17368.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
必須要把它說清楚。我們先確認這個基礎事實再往下討論嘛。文字就一字了嘛。主席,那我先確認齁,剛剛黃總召的提議齁,其實就去...對不起,我沒有看到你修正版本嘛。我問你修正版本是寫這個,你的意義是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
17370.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
17399.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
因為上午我們就討論到一開始幾乎是沒有分級就是七年以下那很容易在判的時候不分大小有的都判六個月就一顆罰金那真正那些守謀惡性的又判得很低所以這次法務部的案子分成兩級一億以上跟一億以下一億以下是六個月以上五年以下然後一億以上的是一億一年以上七年以下那以上七下的就沒有一顆罰金的可能了 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
17400.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
17429.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
一億以下的因為是六個月起跳所以還有一顆罰金一億以下的可能有剛剛早上說的爺爺職場小白被利用做賬戶人頭這種的金額大概會不會超過一億我想大致上常理來判斷應該不至於因為他可能是偶一被利用另外我們早上提到的其實我也私下要跟刑事警察局去做一個請教就是現在我們要抓的像這些水房這些真的就是為洗錢為目標在用 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
17430.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
17453.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
掩護其他非法的黑錢的這些目標大概你們有沒有統計他們的金額查獲的時候大概是多少的規模那另外呢金管會也在這裡早上問到金管會因為現在我們條文修改後第二條也好第五條也好金管會它所含設的範圍包括虛幣那未來那個另外我們還有把第三方支付當然那不是金管會的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
17454.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
17469.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這些未來都有可能作為洗錢的掩護的那他們的這些經常性的交易規模大概是多少這個不涉及到對剛剛黃總召所說的分三級黃總召三級是說六年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
17470.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
17491.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
六個月以上五年以下一年以上七年以下再去抓首謀組織性的弄個三年以上十年以下就分成三級那從原來的完全不分級到法務的主張分兩級到現在再分三級第三級最嚴重的就是一億以上而且呢它也類似我們上午所審查的我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
17492.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
17515.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
相關的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例當中一樣對於組織者、守謀者予以更嚴重的一個制裁那這個方向上我想都符合社會的期待那是不是這個部分可以請刑事警察去說明一下這樣的三級分級是不是真的可以抓到讓那些守謀那些我們不能寬待的可以適用到三年以上十年以下大概以上建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
17519.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
17545.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
其實警察局林副局長你腦海中有沒有一些案例可以要跟我們大家一起分享,請院長、各位委員、協議局這邊報告依我們統計記錄來講的話在去年我們偵辦這些詐團的部分依實際的不法犯罪所得超過一億的我們就有六件 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
17547.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
17568.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
黃國昌總召現在刑事檢察局報告六件去年就不法所得就單純不法所得可能涉及到他洗錢不然購買珠寶房產那個車輛等等掩飾他的整個不法犯罪所得在去年有六件今年有九件那所以現在為止九件到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
17570.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
17599.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
以破我們查扣的這些的一個個案來講的話﹖你說去年有幾件?去年有六件。今年到現在有九件。是。所以是不是數字急劇的在膨脹了,對不對?在成長。報告委員應該是說我們在追查的這個方法跟技術部分可以比過去更成功了,因為我們更有經驗。破案率高啦。現在廣告時間。那另外就是說洗錢管道其實它基本上它會 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
17600.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
17620.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
有分層的處置的方式到最後會統合所以他也可能是會以比如說一個辦理地下會對非法洗的部分他可能有涉及到博弈也可能涉及到詐欺或是涉及到一般的外籍移工他們的一個轉會所以在累積如果單純的來論累積金額來講的話因為他每天都會做一億來講長時間來講是不困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
17628.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
17654.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
如果是長時間他不斷再從事的話,半年超過一億其實蠻容易的。那個,院長。現在請國民黨團副困境總導發言,請。那個,呃,瓜葬啊。我覺得這個東西,我們用了太多的時間了。從十一點二十談到現在,我們要再次強調,我們是協助政府。 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
17655.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
17683.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
要如何打詐打詐釋法要怎麼樣能夠更嚴謹讓政府有更多的工具跟武器所以現在一般來講在不法所得一以上一以上所有的這些刑法還是其他的法不法所得一以上幾乎都三點以上有期徒刑那在這個部分其實這跟小白跟車手都沒有什麼直接關係了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
17685.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
17709.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這是詐團首腦,我們都很清楚,一個詐團要搞異議太容易了嘛不法所得意義上,那還是算小團的啦那他們所得要透過這個水房去洗嘛,對不對所以說剛剛這個刑事局的,剛剛這位副局長已經講了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
17709.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
17715.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
17733.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
17754.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
長夜洗錢的一以上也很普通現在這兩個部分這沒有主從的問題它是在洗錢的範圍裡面長夜的洗錢這是長夜的詐騙的我們現在這個方面要不要可以比較重的刑罰有嚇阻力 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
17756.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
17782.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
今天我們在這裡從十一點二十到現在時間太多了我們都是給執政政府有更大的工具跟力量好不好我覺得柯總召這事情無需再討論就是說你們覺得我的建議啦我們在討論基隆要講沒有意思啦就是說你要一年以上七年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
17784.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
17806.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
三年以上十年以下基本上國民黨開放啦我剛剛問了一下黃總他也不堅持啦現在就是說你們到底給執政者有更大的工具今天是我們在這裡協商打詐司法是為了這個事情那你覺得說怎麼樣有利於有利於打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
17807.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
17823.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
有利於把這些不法行為人繩之以法（有更強的嚇阻（我知道你所說我還講得很清楚所以我覺得討論到這裡可以啦你們要怎麼樣就講反正很簡單我沒有意見好不好那接下來莊銳雄我先講一下我先講你要繼續換嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
17829.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
17831.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
好 柯建民總教育發言人 請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
17853.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
17858.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以我剛剛講黃國昌是犯罪所﹖他現在又不是早上又跟你一樣啊你現在說...你現在說...你現在說...沒有人... |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
17863.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
17865.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們講水防是長夜的嘛!水防是發足的意義上! |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
17865.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
17886.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
到底你們兩個人是不是疑似?早上你早來跟人家說這句話,你們在說什麼?沒關係啦,我們尊重你們啦!沒有,你們聽我說嘛!你們浪費時間,早上你只有來,講不到一分鐘!我們從早上一直坐到現在,你現在來又說再浪費時間!什麼叫早上我不坐在這裡啊?你來坐一分鐘講這一條,你早上就進來一分鐘講這一條嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
17888.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
17896.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
因為我在講到底是否犯罪所得黃國昌說要改了那我誤會他要改了可是你講完以後黃國昌就說我犯罪所得現在你現在又講犯罪所得黃國昌師傅又同意我們到底今天講清楚到底在講什麼事情這才是關鍵嘛我現在瞭解你們兩個有沒有一致嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
17922.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
17937.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
麻煩請莊銳雄委員發言 黃國昭 黃國昭總統請準備其實我剛聽了大家的發言 如果像那個 叫什麼叫什麼名字 副官司 叫他小副 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
17940.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
17969.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
就是說如果他講的是長夜的話我又沒意見了所以不要以為我們早上爭執到現在是沒有意義是超級有意義啊我一直在講說請法務部來提供或者說我跟黃國昌總召我們意見有不同我也知道他想幹什麼啊他今天提出來的折衷案裡面我也知道這個會有所掙扎跟拉扯啊那如果說你這個部分要把它類型化到長夜那我沒意見了我會支持你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
17970.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
17992.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那如果說你說長夜這個部分你要去處罰 你要把它加重 各黨團不會有意見啊我們是怕說你那個設成裡面 黃國昌總統他就是考量到一點點所以他才決定要把它給弄下來 把它往下再調嘛那所以說啊 其實倒也不是說是無辜啦 是說輕重會失衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
17995.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
18017.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
對對對,犯罪所得跟那個金額確實也完全是不一樣的概念啦所以上面就太是浪費時間我們大家一直在那邊拔河,就是在想說怎麼樣才會比較好一點那如果中國國民黨那邊要提修正案,你說長夜的部分是三到七我們民進黨我們也可以附和你啊,你要把它類型化我們願意啊現在沒有長夜了,一做一發囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
18019.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
18020.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我剛剛已經說得非常的清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
18029.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
18055.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們上一次委員會協商的時候法務部說明為什麼不採其他我們在加重的時候基本上不管是在政教法或者是這一次的打詐專法裡面都是用犯罪所得所以才用那個名詞上一次委員會協商的時候中嘉賓召委主持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
18058.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
18073.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
法務部說明了以後我說沒有問題就按照法務部說明的文字做調整我們堅持的只有在這一次洗錢防制法的修正當中沒有加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
18075.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
18087.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
當然有人說有加重處罰說已經一年以上了已經一年以上那個叫加重處罰但我就不是這樣看理由是說你把它分成兩個類型第一種類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
18090.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
18111.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
是五年以下有期徒刑那大概就是在處理我們現在所講的百分之九十以上的案子甚至是百分之九十五以上的案子甚至是百分之九十七以上的案子我們剛剛早上看法務部的統計資料通通都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
18112.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
18137.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
上一次委員會協商完了以後我們就已經按照法務部建議的文字做調整了從今天早上開始一直到現在為止臺灣民眾黨提出來的修正動議所使用的文字都是依照他洗錢的財務或財產上利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
18139.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
18165 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
從早上到下午從來沒有變動過放在各位的桌上白紙黑字從來沒有變動過從早上到下午我們所提出來的再修正動議從來沒有修正過因為上一次委員會協商就已經調整過了嘛所以我不知道柯建民總統剛剛在說什麼我聽不懂那你嘛 可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
18167.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
18176.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
請說啊對啊 我是看這一本嘛你長這個丟手我一直在聽大家講因為我副分局後來跑進來說要犯罪守則所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
18177.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
18177.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這件事情﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
18206.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
18230.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我再重申一致立場是我們現行的法定刑度是七年以下有期徒刑我們這次改完了所謂對於比較重大的一億以上的我們的改法是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑那我個人認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
18232.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
18255.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
實際上沒有加重你加了一個樓地板一年以上七年以下再處理一億以上的我認為沒有加重所以我才會主張三年以上、十年以下三年以上、四年以下而我們法院目前在量刑的時候都是從樓地板開始算 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
18256.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
18262.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
都是從樓地板開始算 這個司法實務上面實際上面運作的結果 大家都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
18264.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
18266.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們的立場就是這個樣子以上說明完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
18294.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
18314.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
基本上進出的金錢他只要製造斷點大概都是詐騙來的那另外有些水房他會混雜比如說其他外籍移工、地下會隊的錢那後者這個東西就是用一種灰色地帶來隱藏他龐大進出的金流那這些進出的金流就不完全是不法犯罪所得而可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
18315.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
18333.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
在這個過程當中參與的洗錢的財務．所以成如剛剛副校長所說的．如果是後者這種類型參與洗錢的財務．可能不要說半年．一個月的金額都數十億．大家可能有點瞭解的話．目前外籍移工在臺灣．他每個月的地下會隊． |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
18334.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
18358.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我要強調這個地下會隊不是犯罪所得他只是一個違反我們的金融法規的一個地下會隊那這種灰色地帶所參與的水防他其實並不是他只是會混雜這些詐騙所得或犯罪所得的黑錢但是他製造警方在查的斷點的困難那我是覺得三級的防制是不是可以請法務部回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
18359.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
18382.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
因為我們看到了組織犯罪條例的第三條第一項（它其實就是誠如剛剛黃總統所說的（組織犯罪條例第三條第一項（它對於守謀（發起者是三到十年（的確是如此（所以我是覺得我們各項的打詐法（還有犯罪防制法令呢（是不是我們會取得一個行動上的一致性（就像我們早上也談到的（對於守謀的我們也加重（ |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
18385.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
18402.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
今天我們對洗錢的部分,它如果是屬於後者,它只是被犯罪集團利用它的灰色地帶來進行洗錢的,可能它的金額很容易就超過一億,但不會全都是不法犯罪所得,可能是洗錢的財務很容易超過一億的,這種可能是一到七年。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
18402.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
18429.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
但是如果是犯罪集團他們所謀發起的專門來負責洗這些不法所得的可能我們可以參考組織犯罪條例第三條第一項予以他三到十年這樣較重的刑責是不是請法務部說明一下因為這個不同的法條我們希望他對於犯罪的嚴重程度有比較一致性的良心那個傅昆吉總統請等一下我們先請法務部解釋麻煩請法務部的黃正智這個還有前次犯罪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
18433.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
18460.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好,謝謝主席還有大任各位委員那法務部說明就是說因為剛剛黃國昌總召提出來的這個三層的這個建議我們是剛剛才聽到了那所以我們初步先回應就是說我們之前為什麼我們認為說一億元以上就直接跳到三上十下我們會有所疑慮是因為我們目前我們整個刑法體系的這個刑度有一個表 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
18462.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
18473.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
一階一階上去因為洗錢的行為同樣都是洗錢的行為並沒有其他的要件在增加只是它的金額比較大所以我們認知這樣的罪質是要再加一級 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
18478.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
18493.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
三上十下是跳兩級在我們整個刑事法的這個刑度的這個平衡上面我們覺得有點可能跳太快這樣子但是如果說再加入了這一個所謂的操縱犯罪組織守謀的話我們認為是可以討論的就是說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
18496.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
18518.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
本來分兩集,現在分三集但是到底要怎麼去界定這個犯罪過程要見,可能要請具體的文字讓我們稍微看一下、演繹一下那我們也請同仁現在來處理沒關係,那法務部這邊同仁處理的時候,剛才我們也看到一個版本先收回去,等一下文字再做調整,我們再來彙整,好不好接下來請傅坤祺總召請發言那個,院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
18523.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
18534.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們早上幾點鐘開始協商?十點半您在的時候我在不在?我們十一開會開到十二點四十四分副科技總召在 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
18536.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
18559.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
所以我要特別強調大家在這裡協商針對條文我再次講不要在那邊點名、點人、點什麼東西這個都是一個基本的一個禮儀啊因為你的想法你講沒有關係嘛點東點西的這就是很奇怪的東西什麼叫人家進來總共講一分鐘的話這個都很不適宜啦本黨有提的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
18566.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
18594.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對不對（詐欺防制法二十四條、二十五條（對不對（各種大家跑來問我是不是這樣可以（總加兵也跑來問我是不是這樣可以（對不對（今晚回來跟我講了多少次（什麼叫我在這裡講一分鐘（我不知道在講什麼（不要老是人身攻擊嘛 對不對我們本黨有版本的（我們有我們的想法（那現在在討論洗錢防制法（本黨沒有提案（沒有提版本（所以我很尊重大家的意見（你們去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
18596.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
18620.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
同樣我們終究還是說執政黨是你們要對全民負責嘛所以打仗是好我們大家花那麼多時間我從來就沒有講過浪費時間嘛就我們已經討論了三個小時現在是不是要告一個結論對不對我們說你執政黨你們要負責嘛你打仗有沒有成績嘛越打越炸還是打了以後有成績今天給你武器嘛我們戰略黨都是支持嘛大家討論和氣一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
18624.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
18648.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
不需要再講,已經有的沒有的嘛,對不對?副總召,我們上會是十二點四十四分,副總召在我們就尊重他的意見嘛,已經講了嘛,也不用大家講來講去,我希望以後就事論事好,謝謝我知道我叮你一句,麻煩法務部那個文字可能要稍微快一點點那接下來我們請黃國昌總召請發言,何建民總召請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
18652.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
18679.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
法務部喔你們要做這個文字上面的調整上一次委員會我就尊重了但當我們在討論洗錢罪的時候這一次為什麼把第三項修掉把第三項修掉就是肯認洗錢它有獨自要保護的法義存在否則第三項修掉一點意義都沒有好那這一次我們把第三項修掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
18681.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
18701.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
與國際上的標準結軌肯認洗錢罪本身有獨自保護的法義與前置犯罪兩者是兩回事如果不是兩回事第三項不會刪除請法務部看你們自己行政院的版本所提出來的立法理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
18702.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
18714.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你們的立法理由是怎麼寫的?你們的立法理由說,鑒於洗錢行為,除了侵害人民財產法例外,並影響合法資本市場及足道偵查。兩個法例出來了喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
18720.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
18745.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
一個是影響合法資本市場第二個除老增差再往下洗錢犯罪、行為人犯罪所得越高對金融秩序的危害通常越大上面寫行為人的犯罪所得越高對金融秩序的危害越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
18747.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
18770.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這也是你們自己寫在立法理由裡的那所以你們以洗錢的財務或財產上的利益是否達新台幣一億以上作為情節慶祝的標準我剛講的全部都是你們寫在立法理由上面的說明這些立法理由上面的說明我都贊成但我對於你們這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
18772.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
18796.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
考慮了這一些法議了以後,你們的解決方案竟然是一億以上的加一個地板,一年。我不能同意。我不能同意。你們針對小白,你說要把他弄到五年以下,這個我同意。因為不管改不改,現在的操作就是這樣嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
18798.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
18824.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
不管改不改現在的操作對小白啦不管改不改現在的操作就是這個樣子啦現在雖然是七年以下七年以下是好看的啦我們剛剛法務部的統計資料拿出來看非常清楚啊一萬多件一萬兩千多件裡面一萬兩千多件都六個月以下我們真正care的事情真的到上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
18829.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
18855.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
各位數各位數這個是我們現在在面臨的狀況對於那種洗錢大戶我再重申我的立場我深惡痛絕對於洗錢大戶深惡痛絕這些人吃香喝辣搞招待所胡搞瞎搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
18857.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
18885.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
到了海關人還可以放走造成台灣社會多大的動盪甚至有人洗錢洗多少結果搞到後來像在買贖罪券一樣給他還起訴我不點名在台灣社會赫赫有名那個還起訴出來的時候整個社會輿論的評價是什麼因為他很有錢繳錢買贖罪券就把他放掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
18886.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
18908.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那不是緩刑欸那是緩起訴欸對於這種洗錢大戶為什麼要客氣哪有違反什麼最值相當的原則我不認為有啦這是為什麼我主張對於這種洗錢大戶基本款就是三年以上有期徒刑以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
18910.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
18923.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召,現在請柯建銘總召請發言第一點先跟副總統表示抱歉,因為他早上就知道就忘記了,太昏頭了我只是記得他講那一句話說浪費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
18927.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
18949.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我不是說要攻擊你,坦白講因為早上一直在集中,前面還要找你協商我忘記了,因為太集中,這樣你講起執政黨當成績,這個成績是大家的啦不是執政黨不執政黨,因為大家都一直要做嘛那至於防傷委員所談的問題,因為引起大家討論嘛,那現在已經分為三個層次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
18950.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
18979.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
當然早上黃國勛市長一直講到這前置犯罪有罪行比較輕所以有這個問題才會一直在討論那早上後來我誤解說這個犯罪所得是還得了所以有一些誤解因為早上很多法案已經進來你拿了就來那新的版本就在旁邊你來不及看大概是如此都是大家都有的說的沒有什麼特定對象的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
18981.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
18991.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那那個防務有沒有心靈還是需要一點時間?你一下有沒有關係啊?等一下已經討論四個多小時了好,可能要請他們準備一下然後印出來才有辦法這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
18994.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
19004.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
但是黃總統最後好像他又撤回他的三接論不是啊,我們還是一樣可以進行啊你現在表格送不出來,我就要宣布表格,因為我們已經討論了沒有啦,什麼表格,這張已經有結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
19014.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
19032.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我怕你喊表決先處理第五條OK那這樣我們等一下我們先處理第五條因為他整個效果都在這裡先處理第五條等一下還有通保法嘛科技偵察法都在嘛我們是照協商臺灣民眾黨黨團有提出來一個修正動議第五條修正動議我們現在在第五條請鐘嘉斌委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
19045.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
19069.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
民進黨團的意見他們放在說明、立法說明那上次關於這個NFT的部分就是有委員表達希望能夠把它放進去那麼經過討論之後大家覺得是放在條文說明即可涵蓋在裡面那現在條文說明就在我們的手上的這個修正動議的第二頁的說明欄用紅字表示的部分應該可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
19070.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
19092.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
你也可以啊各位黨團幹部如果沒有意見我們第五條復待決議我們就找協商內容通過好嗎?好那我們現在處理三個復待決議回過頭來我們再回到十九條沒有三個復待決議我們提的啦復待決議我們請民進黨黨團提的都建議案而已啦復待決議是到最後因為三點以後才處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
19101.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
19122.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
非常感謝,我們希望各黨能支持這個附帶決議當然就是補充我們在立法過程當中所看到的一些有些需要強化的地方但是又未達到協助法條的內容那附帶決議一包括的就是電子商務平台及第三方支付那要求要落實執行賣家的KYC這是第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
19123.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
19144.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這當中要求速發部應該在六個月內針對電子商務平台及第三方住業者去管理研議適當的內控及管理機制那附帶決議二也都是類似附帶決議第二就是關於電商平台那麼因為平台本身本身它作為一個買賣交易構成的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
19146.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
19163.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
呃﹚角色﹚但是呢﹚他的支付工具啊﹚卻有各種的路徑﹚包括公﹚包括在這個平台上呢﹚也有可能透過﹚第三方的代售代付﹚也有可能透過超商的臨櫃繳款﹚那這些都有些漏﹚漏洞都有些斷點齁﹚所以我們希望說經濟部啊﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
19164.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
19187.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
初發部應該會同經濟部在六個月內﹐針對這些電商平台的規範﹐包括登錄的機制﹐未完成登錄的撤銷營業登記﹐必須指定納入洗錢防制﹐並督導第三方支付﹐以及對電商平台執行KYC我想今天如果經濟部的代表在﹐應該了解到上次我們相關的會議當中﹐我們有特別針對經濟部這邊提出要求﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
19188.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
19209.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
第三個負債決議也是接近一樣要求速發部會商、經濟部、金管會及相關部會就六個月內就未完成登錄的處罰以及管制不得及時兌付的部分那什麼叫做管制不得及時兌付呢因為目前在這個電商平台當中的交易它可能是透過超商、零貴、現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
19212.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
19236.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那這個東西是透過提供的QR Code的條碼來幫你支付但是這個現金在超商通貨上事實上可以做到一定程度的延遲交付以便於事後在去追查的時候可以有效的堵絕現金交付到第三方支付業者手上那有效的幫助被害者能夠追回他們的被詐騙的所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
19237.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
19259.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那這個部分呢就包含裡面所說的包括交易雙方因買賣雙方因確認交易權利義務值的交付款項還有商品目有意義使得言合理退款等消費者保障以上說明謝謝昭偉宗嘉賓昭偉的補充說明各位其他黨團幹部針對這民進黨所提三附帶決議有沒有寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
19261.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
19271.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
如果沒有話,我們就通過照列。好,謝謝。那我們現在再回到19條,發布的文字還沒有出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
19274.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
19300.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
跟主席還有各位委員報告因為說實在的要增加第三項照剛剛侯商總召所提出來的我們去比對了之後發現第三項的組織犯罪的那一個條文會長得跟目前的組織犯罪條例是一樣的而且新度也會差不多只差在他的罰金跟這個但書沒有寫上去而已一定要是三上十下 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
19301.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
19319.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以未來在法解釋上面會有什麼問題可能司法院這邊也可以補充所以就是變成說有沒有需要這樣子做我不是覺得說我們尊重大院對於最後一年以上的部分我們尊重大院最後的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
19328.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
19349.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
如果說修正了以後 那麼那個十九條修正分成三級以後 那個主持的部分跟那個組織犯罪法防制條例第三條第一項的這個刑度完完全全一樣的話 那麼將來可能產生競合的時候要 因為這個情形可能性是蠻大的 那麼可能就要 因為兩個情形完全一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
19351.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
19378.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
沒關係,那個黃常委稍稍等,因為仲介兵會先舉手麻煩請仲介兵召委,請我想我們了解啦,因為剛剛在聽到這個三級這個設計或許從法律專業要簡潔表達以及考慮到未來的審判實務上可能造成的競合問題或許有些考量但是我們覺得在有些立法上呢我們縱使是重複加以規定那可能的一些不是那麼完美的地方或許可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
19379.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
19397.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
在看司法院這邊代表怎麼說我們覺得我們在表彰的就是我們對於打擊詐欺犯罪當中在洗錢防制法當中我們是有對於對象分級刻意他們應有的制裁那這個部分請司法院在待會 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
19398.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
19422.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
回應的時候能夠考量到．或者在立法上．從法律專業的角度．有這些競合的考量．但是在表彰政府打擊詐欺的決心．在洗防法當中我們引進了．組織犯罪條例第三條第一項．的這樣的規定．如果沒有太大的後遺症．我是傾向希望我們可以用這個方向上去．去促成了謝謝總裁並召委接下來請黃國璋總召請補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
19425.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
19452.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我剛剛已經說了我們剛剛對於我們修正條文所採取的立場我就不再複述了各位黨團幹部各位列席的閣員跟官員現在我念一下我們立法院黨團協商的結論我們今天協商的主題並按協商一、司法及法制委員會並按審查行政院罕請審議洗錢防制法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
19453.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
19476.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案、郭國文十六位委員凝聚洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案．臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚洗錢防制法部分條文修正案等四案．二、林怡瑾等二十位委員凝聚洗錢防制法修正草案．三、 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
19477.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
19499.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
蔡易瑜等十六位委員凝聚、洗錢防制法修正草案．四、我們協商結論．一、第五條照協商內容通過、詳如附件．二、第十九條保留、送院會處理．三、第二十四條照行政院提案通過． |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
19501.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
19524.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
四、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過五、新增附帶決議四項,相如附件六、院會進行處理十、非保留部分宣讀後均與通過保留部分暫保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
19525.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
19549.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
一、臺灣民眾黨黨團．民進黨黨團．國民黨黨團順序輪流發言．每人發言時間三分鐘．發言完畢之後．各該保留條文均不再發言．及進行各保留條文的處理．請問各黨團有沒有意見沒有就簽了沒有意見 那我們就簽等一下好不好好 請柯建民總統請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
19551.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
19570.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
關鍵要有結論的時候,人家說要表決,不是說要公開一塊,好不好?應該剛才有共識了嘛,十九條應該有共識嘛,把方偉恩也放進來嘛。對阿,這個當然最後是重重而已嘛,行徒來一樣還好嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
19573.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
19581.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我剛剛在最後發言的時候我已經說了我們維持我們本來的修正動議一以上、三年以上、四年以下有期徒刑這個是本黨團的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
19596.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
19617.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我把你放進來啊,可以啊你講幾句無故大家都說你都沒有意見,然後你又回來說不要我一定要這樣,不可以這樣啦那把你也放進來嘛,變成有三階嘛,就OK啦那宿安也不會有問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
19620.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
19632.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
黃珊珊幹事長有寶貴意見嗎?就是如果大家都沒意見就把這個文字錄法就好啦今天是黃氏中青會開會全部姓黃 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
19633.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
19636.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我剛剛善意提供一個思考的方向在這整個過程當中討論完我剛剛把 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
19649.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
19674.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
整個你們當初要修法的立法理由我剛已經唸給我們所有行政院相關部會首長的代表所以我最後的結論是我們維持我們本來所提的就是三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑這是我們今天早上提出來到現在一個字都沒有修正過的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
19680.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
19707.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
剛才有講三階嘛沒有,那他講好了,你現在到最後你又給我回去那這樣我們討論半天幹什麼,我發現兩個都在討論這大家需要有共識才要討論嘛那剛才大家都在這裡聽你講話都很清楚啦那我覺得可以啊那我跟黃志棠還講,剛才還問了我後部,還問了市委員啊那現在大家話可以用話嗎,那是不像嗎那不是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
19711.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
19714.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
一早就開會就講這樣就好了,大家互談了半天嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
19730.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
19731.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
各種招募﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
19752.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
19755.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
七百場協商不是每次都順?反正到時候再溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
19790.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
19807.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
請問主席還是要課真法?那休息五分鐘課真法是不是金管會有沒有要參與?有些沒有要參與的機關代表可能先離開?有有有,他有留那個銀行訊息好,謝謝大家,謝謝,休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
19818.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
19845.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
只要不屬於下一案的就可以先離開啦 是不是 先宣告一下只要是不屬於下一案的機關代表就可以先離開啊柯真還有通寶嘛 對不對那讓縣長宣告不屬於下面兩案的機關代表可以先離開這樣就可以了 他們自己會判斷啦有關的話就不能走啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
19846.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
19849.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
NCC怎麼趕走那個通訊保障一定有他 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
20086.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
20086.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
20609.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
20626.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
謝謝各位黨團幹部、各位列席的閣員跟官員。現在有幾位調整的列席官員,我把他報告一下。交通部民用航空局遙控無人機工作小組,耿執行秘書,謝謝啊。髮型一模一樣啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
20628.407 |
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20632.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
海洋委員會海巡署情報組黃組長﹖歡迎﹖個人資料保護委員會籌備處嚴科長﹖國防部法律事務司法紀調查王處長﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
20653.686 |
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20680.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
其他還有法務部的司法院的都是一樣我們就不再重複了各位黨團幹部、各位各院官員我們現在開始進入科技偵察及保護法草案本案司法及法治委員會審查行政院提案審查情況跟各位黨團幹部報告審查案一百一三年六月五日審查完畢審查結果名稱第一條之第十一條軍照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
20681.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
20703.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
並決議．院會討論前需交由黨團協商另外．院會將蔡依瑜等十七位委員．林怡瑾等二十一位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並且協商協商情況．跟各位黨團幹部報告民進黨團於六月二十八日召集協商．由鍾嘉斌召集委員主持有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
20705.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
20732.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
有關科技偵察手段及程序之規範究竟採用本案制定之專法或於刑事訴訟法本日協商會議議事由第二案定定專章之立法政策選擇各方有不同意見現在請黨團代表表示意見中嘉賓召委請先說明沒有啦因為這次協商沒有到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
20734.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
20761.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那請吳宗憲召委請說明那宗憲來賓召委請準備好 謝謝主席我們主張科技偵查的部分應該在刑事訴訟法裡面列入專章而不是另立專法那主要我們考量的是第一個人權的保障那科技偵查必須兼顧人權保障我們認為說交給司法院他比較能夠確保一個橫頻第二個是證據能力的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
20761.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
20783.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
20784.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
20804.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
20805.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
20821.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
應該要由司法院來主責去認定這個證據到底可不可以用而不是說單純一個因為科技的變化日新月異所以我們應該要由法務部來管理會比較好這一點我們不太能接受而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
20822.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
20851.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
也不可以說因為司法院的態度被動修刑事訴訟法很困難所以這個理由我覺得民眾也沒有辦法接受雖然說這個也是我目前看到的實際狀況就是刑事訴訟法在修正的時候有關檢察官的部分司法院是連理都不想理那會確實造成檢方在施用很多法律的時候他那個法條都有一點過度落後但這是司法院應該要負的責任而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
20852.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
20856.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
必須定科偵法專法的這個理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
20858.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
20884.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那再來就是行事訴訟法有關強制處分的手段跟科技偵察的法制那如果標準不依舊有操作上的混亂跟困難因為目前搜索、扣押等等也都是定在行事訴訟法裡面那科技偵察也是在輔助搜索跟扣押的相關事宜那如果說搜索跟扣押定在行事訴訟法但是科技偵察又要另定專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
20885.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
20911.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那這個也很奇怪,你們應該是像仿照德國一樣就直接把它定在刑事訴訟法裡面那我們應該請求的是司法院真的要負起責任而不是說另立專法由法務部來處理那司法院既然主責,那我們也應該是要由司法院來負責訓練讓陳審法官對於這個科技偵察的概念能夠跟上時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
20911.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
20929.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
二、數位資訊的保存、監管及監督機制不應該由偵查單位負責就跟羈押、搜索、扣押一樣因為已經是屬於侵害人民權利的手段了尤其是最近有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
20931.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
20953.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
民眾常常在討論王毅川的言論,類似這種東西其實民眾都是很在乎資訊的隱私、定位資訊或是GPS或M化車的使用那這些權利上面也不宜全部由檢方自己來調查、自己來保管、自己來監控我們覺得還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
20954.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
20975.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
由司法院也能夠進來．讓他有足夠的法治授權．這個會比較好．如果保存是偵察機關．監督也是偵察機關．那就毫無監督可言了．所以我們還是覺得由司法院來主責．建立一個監督機制會更好．我們是希望．我們把發動的門檻． |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
20981.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
21005.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
還有程序的監督以及司法的救濟我們都把它完整的建置起來在刑事訴訟法內而不是有專法讓法務部就專法去立法跟控管不然就是變得有點頭痛一頭腳痛一腳那有刑事訴訟法做根本的管理這才比較好這以上是我們的想法謝謝吳宗憲召委的說明接下來請宗嘉賓召委請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
21006.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
21026.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好 謝謝主席 那麼跟各黨團代表說明還有與會的列席機關代表本來這個《刑事訴訟法》跟《科技偵察法》在我們立法體力上從委員會審查的時候就一直有立法體力的討論那我想這個之間也跟我們吳宗憲召委保持一個良好的溝通也就是說我們那時候在委員會期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
21027.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
21054.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
各自就科技偵察法以及刑事訴訟法進行討論在委會也經過充分的交換意見事實上為了節省我們討論的資源起見我大概相同的部分我就不再多提但是只是略略的說明一下不管是在GPS還是煙化車還是熱顯像的部分分別在兩個立法例的版本當中都通過相當多的討論也獲知了一定程度的共識只是在最後這個部分有一個新增的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
21055.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
21072.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
就是大家對於實施調查機關會不會違法實施調查是不是應該克責這個部分產生了一個有必要性的徵定因此在之後就像今天我們看到手上這一份就是由民進黨團提出的科技偵察及保障法草案的修正動議重點說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
21074.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
21095.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這個部分我們看到有第二案這個第二案檢要的內容我說明一下我們增列了第十一條、十二條、十三條、十四條這四個條文是在原來委員會審查的時候它並不具備的為什麼要增加這個就是說第十一條我們增訂違法實施調查之法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
21096.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
21104.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那這當中我簡單說包括第一項如果違法時是第二條、第三條、第四條也就是GPS、文化、車跟熱險項之刑責我們要訂進去了那麼第二項我們認為實行或協助執行調查之公務員或從業人員要加重刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
21114.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
21141.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
必免我們這個給予的犯罪偵察者．給予他較佳的科技調查工具．他卻濫用．那第三項．如果意圖盈利而犯之者．那加重其刑之二分之一．也就是說避免具有執法公務能力者．他圖失利來犯這樣的一個罪．那第十二條我們徵定了．無故洩漏或交付違法實施調查所得資料之刑責．因為我們． |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
21144.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
21170.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
違法交付違法實施調查的因為有時候違法實施調查的這個內容其實是不能夠再外洩的那麼最這個部分我們仿照通訪法的架構分別定了兩項明之為違法實施調查所得的資料不能無故洩漏或再交付那第二項一樣意圖盈利而犯之等加重其刑之二分之一那我們在增列第十三條也增定了無故洩漏或交付合法實施調查所得資料之行者把它區分兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
21171.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
21197.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
一、違法實施調查所得的資料不能無故洩露或交付就算你是合法實施調查所得的資料有些犯罪偵訪人員實施合法調查取得的資料外洩或交付這一樣要刻以刑責最後我們增加了一個告訴乃論條款因為這個不管是十一條、十二條還是十三條非公務員及非盈利犯之者 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
21198.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
21227.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
即是說有些他並不是具有公務身份也不是就為了要來營利那這種情況之下我們提供給受害者他可以用告訴乃論的條款那我這樣說明到這裡為什麼要強調到此為止會對立法例造成一個很根本的問題因為刑事訴訟法它是一個程序法那要去徵定這些刑責罰則有一個兩個上的困難第一因為目前刑事訴訟法的條文以送 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
21228.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
21249.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
委員會送修的條文當中沒有可以附著這些的因為這些法則都在刑法當中但是因為科技偵察法它是一個新創法那新創法原來的條文內容我們可以再增加新的條次這不影響到我們新立法的一個原則所以考量到審查到中途發現我們原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
21250.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
21275.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
內容相反體力不同但是在增加了這些罰則之後勢必要以專法的方式再配合這次新創法的方式來以附加不然的話如果以修法的方式的話就沒有辦法滿足這個需求所以在這裡請求我們各黨團的代表能理解如果大家肯認我們目前爭議的這次條文是有必要防度我們給予犯罪偵訪者科技偵訪的工具但又為了防度他濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
21279.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
21304.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我們要科以它一定的課則那因此要增訂的這四個條文唯有在科偵法當中才有辦法在本次的會席當中完成立法那麼這涉及到我們立法的效能跟效率那在這裡請求我們可以從立法例上回覆到我們要以課則的部分來考量以科技偵察法專法來立法為優先謝謝鍾嘉賓召委的說明接下來請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
21306.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
21313.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
第一個在立法的體力上面我們目前現在所採行或者是說在委員會裡面討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
21315.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
21341.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那的所謂的科技偵察的手段其實說到底從跟外國的立法例相比的話事實上這次過得非常的少這兩個啦一個是GPS一個是M花車沒有其他的了沒有其他的就GPS跟M花車在只有這兩種科技偵察手段的情況之下事實上它本身的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
21341.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
21361.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
就沒有辦法也沒有必要去支撐透過一個專法來加以處理所以我們一開始在針對這整個法案進行研擬的時候基本上是仿德國的立法力有關於科技偵察的手段他們本來就是都放在刑事訴訟法當中這個在委員會討論都有歷經過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
21364.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
21382.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
至於說就增加特別罰則的部分在這次再修正動議提出來透過像在通訊監察保障法的部分仿那樣子的立法例在這邊去加罰則但我要說的事情是刑事訴訟法針對有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
21384.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
21402.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們在進行強制處分的手段．本來就是在調和人權保障跟發現真實．透過立法者在刑事訴訟法裡面的授權．讓我們的執法者可以採行特定的偵查手段． |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21404.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21419.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
根據刑事訴訟法的規定才行特定的偵查手段才可以去排除在這個過程裡面對於各式各樣不同的法役在這個過程當中所可能造成的侵害的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21420.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
21438.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
要不然就會出現我們之前用GPS結果還是有人因此而被判刑這樣子的一個結果那因此在整個立法的體力上面就針對有關於各式各樣強制處分的手段它本來就應該要規範在刑事訴訟法當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
21441.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
21454.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
規範在刑事訴訟法當中因為有刑事訴訟法的授權第一個你不用去擔心會因為法益的侵害而去觸犯刑法相關的條文那第二個因此而取得的證據才會有證據能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
21456.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
21471.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那把它放在刑事訴訟法當中．如果違反了這個法定的程序．依照你所侵害的法意．本來就回到刑法．目前我們在法意保障的體系當中． |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
21474.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
21500.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
對與各相關的行為所應該科於的刑罰處罰到目前為止整個體力全部都是這個樣子那你如果說是以要增加新的罰則的方式當成是立特別法的理由的話其實上次在論壇裡面非常多共同參與的法界大家共同的一致是會不斷的造成我們的特別法肥大化 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
21501.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
21515.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
這樣子的一個問題跟現實上面的狀況那第二個會讓整個刑事訴訟有關於強制偵查手段的部分變得極度的破碎變得極度的破碎那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
21516.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
21539.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
贊成放在刑事訴訟法裏面那放在刑事訴訟法裏面如果沒有踐行法定的程序就如同現在在刑事訴訟法裏面你如果沒有踐行法定的程序去採取一定的作為的話我們也不是立什麼特別法去處理針對各式各樣不同的強制處分的作為違反了這個、違反了這個、違反了這個、違反了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
21542.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
21569.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
會有什麼樣子用特別法的方式立了處罰你就回到刑法的體力當中針對你違法採取的作為所相對應侵害的法益來加以處罰那因此我們認為這比較好的立法的體力還是把它維持在刑事訴訟法當中那至於說如果違反了刑事訴訟法所授權的法定偵查手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
21569.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
21591.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
而造成了個人、各式各樣不同的法意侵害的話﹐這個時候回到刑法﹐本來我們針對各式各樣不同法意的侵害﹐不管是資訊﹐或者是隱私權﹐個別法意的侵害﹐回到那個法條﹐來予以論斷﹐就可以了﹐以上這個是我們的基本立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
21593.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
21614.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召的補充說明,我們現在請柯建民總召發言,請吳政憲請準備吳宗憲委員請準備院長各位同仁,這個當然牽涉到我想不只是立法政策的選擇啦,我知道反正習近平是比較德國的,德國實際上是有很完整的專章,我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
21616.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
21627.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
吳宗憲委員或黃宗偉就不外乎把法務部的科技偵察法裡面有關於GPS和煙火車就不能就不能抄進來吧那 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
21628.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
21651.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我要講的是一件事情就是說剛才黃國昌委員所講的要徵紀律當然所以我們要立這個法因為過去在法院被判沒有徵紀律因為沒有立法完成嘛那本條不是本法不是只有GPS啊M法車啊當然還有內影像的問題嘛那過去有木馬小木馬的問題後來拿掉了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
21652.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
21677.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
而內政察的部分也拿掉了,我不知道這內政察的部分在法國常委員版本是我還有基本上他就從法國黑政黨搬過來嘛那不是說德國立法院這樣我們一定要這樣做啦我看我就說因為剛才中間那位委員談得很清楚,這裡面有罰則出現的所以只要十一條、十二條、十三條那還有過程要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
21679.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
21704.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以這個已經不是刑事訴訟的問題而已啦刑事訴訟不可能有罰則嘛然後還有過程要件有時候有四條嘛所以我的看法就是說應該大家回到一個比較理性我們在打到司法裡面科技偵察法已經講好多年大家一聽就知道這個打詐因為刑事訴訟法大家聽不懂況且現在我們要回到刑事訴訟法也有程度上困難的這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
21706.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
21733.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我看我就說有關刑事訴訟法的部分我當時比較贊成有關大法案四十二六四有關歷史的筆記前的那一部分在那部分我們來處理是可以的把它拆開來的所以刑事我們處理歷史筆記前的部分那這個部分有關於科技偵察的我們應該放在刑事處因為回到科技偵察的主題方委這個是將來法務部在用的嘛法務部做清楚嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
21734.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
21738.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
謝謝柯建民總召的發言接下來請吳宗憲委員發言、莊瑞泉委員請準備再下來就是法務部跟司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
21759.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
21781.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
謝謝主席有關這個部分到底應該修在刑事訴訟法還是另訂專法其實民進黨之前的版本也是在刑事訴訟法那後來對後來他當然改變想法嘛那改變想法的做法他就是加了一些刑責在裡面然後讓他變成沒有辦法修在刑事訴訟法裡面但我覺得這個是沒有意義的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
21782.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
21811.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我們只要回過頭去想一下當年海巡署在裝GPS的時候這個行為被法院的判刑也是回歸到刑法上面的適用所以根本不需要我們另立一個專法只是為了塞刑責進去我現在反而是覺得你好像是為了另立專法而搞一個刑責在這裡只是為了把它變成專法仿通保法的概念但是事實上沒有這個必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
21811.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
21832.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那之前那個林三田教授他也是批評過我們台灣變成是一個特別法肥大政的地方我們把整個法律體系弄得非常的混亂那這段時間我跟法務部的同仁有談過其實他們唯一擔心的就是我剛說的他認為說因為目前訴訟法是由司法院主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
21834.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
21858.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
實體法有法務部．所以他們擔心科徵．修下去之後．會不會將來司法院就不甩．不甩科技的進步．那這個部分我覺得不能當作是．我要另立專法的理由．而是說．我們應該是要求司法院．你必須跟著時代進步去修刑事訴訟法．而不是說．這個不是我司法院用．是法務部用的．那我就修法我都懶得理你．這個是你． |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
21861.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
21886.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
你怎麼講就是你司法院的怠惰不能當作另立這個專法的理由所以我覺得還是應該是這樣就是有關搜索扣押這一類的概念我們還是把它放在刑事訴訟法裡面至於說違反而造成人民的侵害那就回歸到實體法由刑法或是相關法律下去處理應該是這樣才符合我不要不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
21887.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
21888.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
21907.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
21935.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
事用法律這一塊我過去二十年我很熟悉你法制越混亂你會造成第一線的執法人員越辛苦好 以上謝謝謝謝吳宗憲委員的補充接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言請法務部準備好 謝謝院長那其實這個是在我們事要法制委員會裡面大家也都知道討論這部法律的時候法務部本來送到行政院的時候其實根本就不是程序法它裡面當初還有小木馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
21936.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
21944.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這個我們當初都把它否決掉了我在審這部法律的時候啊我是從頭反對到尾啦所以到最後我們一直在修訂嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
21945.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
21966.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對不對 你說針對那個你那個GPS那個我也反對阿我就說後來我們就說 欸要符合人權嘛我們要朝人家的行政委員從善如流了所以也有把它區分成對被告犯罪嫌疑人也有第三人 這個就出來了所以這個我就可以認同啦那你到第二個的問題說M化車的時候那當初我也反對阿我就說你要去發動你還是要區分阿阿不然我跟韓國瑜院長在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
21970.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
21974.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
人家明明要鎖定你 我有要說 我也一起被鎖定進去了所以你要去做一個區分那後來就變成說我們對被告或者犯罪嫌疑人你有相當理由和可信那第三者的話你就變成要有事實跟主任與被告、犯罪嫌疑人或者證人或者說你要扣押物有關聯的部分我們嚴格這樣就做區分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
21992.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
22011.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
這個對人權就有保障了所以我們就慢慢的就覺得法國部這個是有道理的後來其實倒也不是只有這兩樣我覺得爭議最大的當初我再提出來就是說你那個用偷拍的方式這個家我都一直覺得是人民最後避難的一個堡壘你不能輕易去拍它 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
22013.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
22037.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
後來我們就去加了好多要件我說我們要抄德國可以我們要把人家抄清楚就變成說你誰去弄熱血像這個部分你說對被告犯罪嫌疑人你要有一個理由相當讓人家外人看起來是或在檢驗你說你這樣子拍是可以的但是你說對第三人的部分這個部分你對室內的一個調查這個射程 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
22040.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
22049.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這個都要非常小心我到最後認為是說我們那個二十四小時的部分是不是真的是只要沒有超過二十四小時真的就是隨便人家我們當初考慮到是每一個條文道本來在程序法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
22056.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
22060.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
是不是要規定在刑事訴訟法其實規定在那邊也有它的道理但問題是整部你們提出來以後你們根本就不是要程序法嘛你們本來在規定的部分裡面就有好多東西在裡面後來我們一直認為說本來上次提出來的時候後面是有對公務人員的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
22079.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
22090.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
後來我就跟柯永超講說不見了新的法怎麼對公務人員的部分給你新的武器那你到最後怎麼變成把對公務人員萬一你違法的話這個刑責處罰的規定給拿掉了所以我們就覺得說你本來這個就不是完全的程序法你也要把它給放進去所以也從善如流了所以我反而會覺得這整部法令來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
22102.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
22130.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
各自有它的一個道理可是從委員會到現在其實讓整個這一部科證法裡面的修法已經更趨於保障人權了這個我倒是可以接受那是不是請法務部這個地方也再次的做一個說明你們現在我看爭執的重點就只剩在剩下是不是要在程序法裡面在刑事訴訟法裡面出規定而已那可是我也會必須要再提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
22131.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
22133.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那如果照這樣講的話那通報呢?也會碰到吳宗憲委員你剛剛所提到的問題一樣的道理在以上提供大家來這個共同來討論謝謝莊銳雄委員的發言接下來請法務部請黃市長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
22148.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
22162.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
好,謝謝主席跟各位委員那我想法務部這邊在司法院前面講話先跟司法院抱歉因為剛才吳宗憲委員也幫我們講了很多次那為什麼這個法最後還是由法務部這邊來提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
22164.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
22192.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那也確實誠如委員剛剛所提到的是因為這個主動權如果是要修刑事訴訟法的話主動權隨時在我們現行制度裡面並不在法務部的手上那也不會因為它規定在刑事訴訟法裡面未來這個事情就由司法院主責事實上所有的事情是偵查中檢方要做的事情還是由檢方來負責不會因為定在刑事訴訟裡面就變成是他們的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
22193.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
22220.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那剛剛專選委員也有提到事實上廣義的刑事訴訟程序相關的法律我們如果不是講這個狹義的刑事訴訟法這個法典的話事實上已經有專法的潛力了包含剛剛有提到的通訊保障及監察法提審法、羈押法、國民法官法還有刑事妥肅審理法也就是說事實上這個刑事上是單獨一個法律還是定在 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
22221.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
22238.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
統合性的《刑事故障法典》裏面這是一個形式的問題實質上關於證據能力是不是要法官保留以及法官對於偵察行為有沒有辦法做監督事實上就是看具體的法條文字都可以訂定譬如說就以這個《通訊保障及監察法》來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
22240.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
22257.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這裏面依照通保法的規定執行監聽、調取相關的紀錄這些東西未來在刑事訴訟過程中能不能夠成為證據有沒有證據能力也不會因為它定在通保法而不是定在刑事訴訟法而有任何的差異所以法務要說其實還是一個相當實際的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
22263.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22283.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
也就是說可能刑事訴訟法相關的法學者他們在比較各國立法律跟他們的這個可以說是有一點美學性的思維上面他們會認為體力上應該有一定的要求但是其實以實務、實用的角度來看法務部這邊的立場還是要懇請大院 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22284.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22301.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
來支持由法務部這一邊來訂單訂定的過程中關於人權保障以及法官、法院的這些令狀、制度等等的我們一定會在相關的法條裡面跟充分的溝通然後達到保障和人權的效果另外補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22303.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22319.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
因為針對這個6月28號這個委員會協商的時候所提出來徵定的這一些這個科證法的行則它的背景是這樣第一個就誠如剛才中央選委所提到的在 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22321.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22335.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
應該是五、六年前法務部曾經就一版的科技偵察法曾經預告過那時候在社會上引起巨量大波了包含大木馬、小木馬通通都有在裡面那一版的科證法其實就有罰則的規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22336.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22356.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
也就是說法務部一開始在研擬規劃這個法律的時候他就不是一個單純的刑事程序法的這個角度在擬定那當然因為那一次的法令在社會上引起很多的討論有很多不同的意見所以這個法務部在重新的研擬跟思考之後決定以 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22356.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22357.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22375.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22397.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
相關的有爭議的部分把它拿掉也同時因為它看起來都更像一個程序法了所以我們這一次院版本來的版本才把相關的法則拿掉但是送到立法院來之後在整個討論的過程仍然收到質疑所以我們才模仿通保法的體力通保法其實也有這些相關的針對違法來取證違法來執行強制處分的這些相關的規定也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22403.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22427.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
法法則那這邊比較補充說明的是在科證法或通訪法訂定這些法則跟剛才結構委員所提到的回歸現行的刑法的法律去保護它會有構成要件相應的問題也就是說如果我們在這一部特別法裡面就有訂定假設相關的公務員、執法人員違法或是限密 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22427.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
22442.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那麼他的構成要件就是跟他這個行為有關而已但是如果回歸到刑法不管是315之一或是318、318之一等等的要件他都還會有限於他人非公開活動、言論談話、身體實施部分等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
22443.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
22463.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
22464.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
22480.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
依照我們這個版本那麼當然坊間也有很多的學術專家其實誠如剛才這個委員所提到覺得我們這一次科技偵察的引進的外國立法力還不夠還認為應該要把之前我們所講的包含小木馬大木馬 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
22481.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
22502.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這些對於打擊犯罪非常關鍵的這些工具也要來引進那如果是這樣的話我們等待社會討論時機更為成熟我們會希望以專法的形式外來法務部才會有修法的主動權可以再來精進再來這個跟社會來加強我們的犯罪政策那以上說明了感謝您的支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
22504.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
22527.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
謝謝法務部黃次長的說明接下來請司法院明明胡被打了好幾拳請黃副秘書長加油請說明主席各位委員好剛才其實黃次長也說明過了為什麼我們司法院也會支持說用定科技偵查跟保障的專法首先我要澄清一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
22529.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
22547.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
其實我們的體制上面關於屬於訴訟程序甚至證據方面用特別法的情形除了剛才所講的早就這個不是第一例之前通保法甚至那個DNA條例都是如此的那今天如果只是為了說證據能力然後要定在訴訟法裡面定在特別法裡面就會擔心那個證據能力問題我想這個是比較多慮了不管是特別法那法官一定都會遵守的 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
22557.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
22563.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
至於說可能擔心說要定在刑事訴訟法底下才擔心不會被授仇我想應該也不會有這種情形法官們在適用法律的時候只要是國會通過的法律不管是一般法、特別法都是如此為什麼我們認為說定在刑事訴訟法底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
22579.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
22596.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
並不是很符合需要,並不是說我們要澄清,並不是說所謂司法院比較保守跟被動的這個問題,因為大家知道刑事訴訟法三、四百條,那裡面加那個條文的時候,我們每次修刑事訴訟法,都坦白講動議法 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
22598.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
22602.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
這一法動全身啦,動全身,所以比較少說只為一條去動刑事訴訟法,因為你要動刑事訴訟法就牽涉到了非常多所以跟各位委員報告,即使是涉案主法的法律裡面,涉及到特殊訴訟、特殊證據的時候,我們也傾向用專法所以各位可以看那個智慧財產案件審理法,其實它就是屬於民事訴訟刑事訴訟法的特別法,為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
22623.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
22628.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
因為它如果定在民事訴訟法裡面直接修的時候,我們將來去修這個法都比較不方便所以用專法的時候可以符合它的需要,與時俱進今天你要動這個的時候,你不需要牽涉到訴訟法的其他條文,直接去動就好那誠如剛才黃委員所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
22643.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
22659.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
今天所謂說我們訂這個專法 那麼大家也像我們中委員講將來才能夠除了這個證據方面 證據能力方面以外你也可以一併去思考說它有沒有涉及到這個違反的時候會有刑事責任甚至民事責任的問題 那剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
22666.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
22672.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
黃國昌委員也有指教啦那這個依照法律的保護你就可以回到刑法跟民法去但是說實話齁這個要轉了好幾萬啦轉了好幾萬而且我們知道齁今天到底他保護的是什麼法律你到民法跟刑法裡面去的時候還講不是都非常的清楚他走過去被遭到遭到的東西沒有通知他到底侵害什麼法律我要告損害賠償我要告哪一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
22693.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
22707.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
22714.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
22731.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
因此衍生的不管刑事責任、民事責任你都可以做一個與時俱進的這個規定那麼隨著這樣這個科技的發展非常的快你今天隨著時間的改變的時候像剛才黃國昌委員講的目前只訂兩項但是大家都講還有很多今天講的是訂在刑事訴訟法我們要修的時候它像是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
22735.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
22736.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
22766.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
22783.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
坦白講司法是很穩健,他要動的時候會整個訴訟法一起去動,而不會只動這兩個條文,所以這一點要跟各位講的,而且不管說各位所提到的說相關這些保管使用這些東西,你幾乎不太可能在訴訟法裡面去訂定說這些資料要如何保管,那除了法以外還有一個很重要的, |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
22788.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22798.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
今天你法定了以後你後續還有很多的那些行政後續的法規命令跟行政規則那我們主管行事訴訟法、民事訴訟法那後續的這些行政規則只針對這些東西定行政規則對我們來講也並不是那麼的方法我們只會定行事訴訟法的執法我們不太會去定行事訴訟法哪一個條文的這個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22812.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22832.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
這個並不是那麼容易做（那由法務部針對這一個特別法（它訂定授權的這些執法（可以符合需要（而且可以與時俱進（隨時需要、隨時去修（這才比較符合（符合一個法制上面的一個常規（而且更何況（我們目前的相關的這些（包含剛才所講的這些特別法（都是如此體力（那德國雖然是一種思維（ |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22833.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22855.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
但是德國市委也不是比較法上通律我們看到非常多的國家都是用特別法案去訂的這邊也跟各位做一個報告所以就結論上面來講我們並不是說保守或者是但是我們認為符合國家的需要其實是一個特別的這個科技偵察保障法才符合大家需要以上報告謝謝黃副民主黨的說明接下來柯建民總召請發言剛剛法務部辦事委員大家都講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22864.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22887.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我在這裡講說科技偵察法在出現的時候是在兩、三年前那時候大家說這個科技偵察法來不得了東廠但現在因為打詐大家都主張要趕快立法都趕快立科技偵察法打詐釋法這是外來形勢改變的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22888.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22907.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那時候林英雄教授就說科技政法本來就要趕快立啊,因為你沒有立,保護照常在用嘛,他照常N法車、GPS照常在用嘛所以你們跟這個要把立法立清楚,否則的話會造成將來懷疑的爭執力不足嘛,所以這個是很實際的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22909.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
22926.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那林英雄就是我也跟他很熟他主張是換來的那是劉德的嘛他刑事訴訟法可是德國刑事訴訟法他是為這個是寫得很完整的一個章節那今天我們要回頭過來看就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
22927.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
22942.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我現在在談的所謂的道理要在哪一個地方齒理而論這個是延遲大家一個爭執我剛才的結論就是說假如說歷史的比喻淺那個部分讓我們刑署趕快修修到關二六十那部分也可以處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
22943.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
22972.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
但現在的科技偵察法和送來的上議員的法都改變很多以前有這個木馬兩年以後不管小木馬、大木馬反正木馬都是很恐怖的事情但是兩年以後才能做得到所以那個拿掉了那我們也把任意偵察也拿掉了那我要講的就是說進來以後,國民黨內部衝突很大因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
22973.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
22997.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那中央衛生局委員包括我們中央衛生局委員、我們民進黨黨團內部為了這個討論很多次因為中央衛生局委員他們覺得這個法當然中央衛生局委員有講過那你要欺負被告和嫌疑人有什麼不一樣所以他在六條第三條都有欺負那第四條都有欺負然後他要講說你欺騙什麼莊莊 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
22999.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
23010.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那不是告訴當事人雖然這個是有令狀但是到最後還是要告訴當事人但是我要告訴當事人那我們一般的令狀怎麼走就這樣怎麼走 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
23013.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
23029.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
然後再增加四個,十一、十二、十三、十四範圍過程要件,又有罰則了。這整個已經和我們大家一開始進來大家有爭執的情況已經完全改變了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
23030.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
23054.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那整個法已經是完全改變了我們提出版本提出版本所以和原始的完全是不一樣的樣態所以我比較還是認為我們過去審討很多特別法、訴訟法等等都是我們都經過了嘛所以這整個刑事樣態和一開始活過送來的版本已經完全不一樣在這種情況底下我們認為要有完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
23055.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
23075.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
人權保障及對可以倖免的刑責等這些都是重新增加的版本所以情況是不太一樣所以還是拜託有關於刑事我們可以處理歷史比喻前我想那個部分比較單純 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
23077.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
23093.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
這個還是回到科技偵察法．將來打仗都是科技偵察法．已經講好多了 大家都不知道打仗是科技偵察法．要把刑事訴訟法出來 不然我才聽不懂．而且內容也沒有辦法塞進去了 已經失去那個原來可以調整的空間了 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
23095.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
23111.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
謝謝柯定平總裁 接下來請林思明委員請表達意見我想這部法律我個人還是認為說定在刑事訴訟法不要符合立法的體力我想我們刑事訴訟的進行檢察官他是負責舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
23113.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
23127.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那檢察官舉出來的證據到底有沒有證據能力這部分是由我們法院來審認法院來認定那今天我們要針對科技方法來偵查犯罪這些科技偵查方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23128.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23156.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
到底有沒有證據能力當然我們認為這個就是由法院來主責會比較合適所以這部法律把它由法院來主責我們認為定在刑事訴訟法是比較OK的其實我想我從實務面再來做提供大家一些意見其實各位我想不知道莊烈雄或者朱獻我們考過的司法官或者檢察官、律師的都知道今天很多的科目都是考試為導向的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23157.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23173.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
如果今天我把它定在科偵法﹖未來律師檢察官﹖或者法官﹖因為考試沒有考這個科目﹖除非你未來那個考試員曾江蘇要考科偵法﹖我把它定在專法裡面﹖那刑事訴訟法是必考的﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23174.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23189.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
所以你定在刑訴法我想大家就一定會對於科技偵察的相關的手段我們會非常熟悉這些考生會非常熟悉你以後考上了你也對這些偵察的手段會非常的熟悉如果你是定在專法因為不考 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23190.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23218.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
不考大家就不會唸阿這是很實在的阿 這很實際的阿對 所以說我是更認為說這個把它定在刑訴法因為從各種情況來看沒有有正導向我跟你講就是說這個是等於說是我們法律人必備的一個工具你要成為司法官成為律師必備的工具阿你要對這些科技偵察手段你要了解你要知道那個搜索扣押以及用科技方法怎麼樣來偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23219.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23243.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
才不會構成違法這你要都要非常熟悉所以我個人是建議我想司法院這幾個條也沒有很多把它定在刑訴法裡面我認為並沒有什麼有何罕格不足之處至於說這些相關的法則我想我們國昌剛才講很清楚其實我們的法制已經足備了各種法律的保障其實我們去把它含釋進去絕對是OK的 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23245.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23254.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
不會說因為要訂專法而特別的又去把這個很細的東西把它訂在專法裡面我想我們實際上可以喊捨了以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23270.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23294.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
請莊瑞雄委員發言我剛聽了林委員這樣的一個講法啦齁 這個當然有點不是說完全沒有道理啦 這個是站在法律院考試的立場看 但這不通啦可是照你這樣講的話 我們為什麼有通保法啊有好多法令 法令都不應該有這個制定這麼多的一個特別法 我倒認為啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23296.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23302.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我們在司法法治委員會你們很清楚啦我是一條一條在把關啦我每一條我都提出來啦這我反而會覺得說這裏面有涉及我再講一次我不管誰執政我都不相信這個政府啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23318.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23345.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我講我的真心話所以我們制定這一些是真的要打擊犯罪給公務人員去依法行政你像比如說法務你們行政院提出來這個我也倒認為說很多這一些措施要不要到法官保留或者至少要檢察官保留本來行政院認為是他們內部訂定規則就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23347.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23369.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我認為是不夠的我認為是不夠的你像比如說像現在各位我不曉得各位要的是什麼你們不是說要支持嗎要支持那我覺得大家的方向就是一致嘛那只是說放在程序法裡面就是行動訴訟法裡面或者要弄這個專法一個專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23371.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23387.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
剛剛那個其實施民委員提那個就其實不夠充分啦我們說實在話反而是怎麼樣把那個行政院的條文裡面我們去把它做一個加強針對它去實施這一些措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23388.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23397.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
要不要事先有檢察官保留或者法案保留我覺得這個才是一個重點我還請教過昨天我還特別請教過吳宗憲、文昭偉我說那個M化車你們以前怎麼搞他說我們最高法案下來以後我們都不敢用了這個叫做什麼意思這以前他都亂搞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23413.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23423.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
最高法院沒有做判決啊所以以前都一直在用啊是後來最高法院宣告說你這個就是採證程序全部都違法那個不能列為證據啊沒有證據能力是這樣子啊可是我是突然看到那個報紙又出現那一台那麼貴重的M化車以後其實我也覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23433.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23439.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
先你頭也不太舒服啦我說實在話啦我們在審這個法律的時候那吳宗憲你們以前當檢察官的時候你們就是這樣幹啊 對不對所以我反而會覺得說我是從實質上去各位應該是實質上大家覺得要對法務部對行政部門支持他的打擊犯罪我們一起支持但反而是從這個具體的條文裡面有涉及到人權侵害的部分要嚴格的把關啊否則2020年我們是不是都被你們怎麼K的 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23462.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
23472.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
你們反而這次對內容就變成沒有意見了,變成我在有意見了。二零年的時候一直罵,每天罵我們東廠東廠東廠,罵到我覺得奇怪,怎麼變成我在罵我們自己,你們都不罵了。所以我反而到覺得放在刑事訴訟法裡面,或者說我剛剛為什麼挺懷負特別再提出說明,請他們來說服你們,因為我覺得還是要有刑責在裡面。公務人員給你這一些武器,你違反了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
23492.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
23512.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那這個你放在刑事訴訟法的話你的過程要含涉不進去我認為所以這個站在人權保障立場我還反而會覺得說要達到打擊犯罪的一個目的可以提供他們武器但是另一個專法而且是把公認人的義務還有科與他責任的把它寫清楚是合理的謝謝莊惠玄委員發言接下來請黃國昌總召請發言羅志強委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
23516.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
23540.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
其實對於莊瑞雄委員保障人權的用心我也是非常的佩服那M化車的事情新的國會我第一次總諮詢就提出來那我那時候就充滿了困惑最高法院做了判決說沒有證據能力那我們的高檢署還是花錢買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
23541.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
23560.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那個時間序我記得很清楚最高法院的判決先出來出來了以後你們才去辦招標所以我那時候問他們說最高法院判決都出來了你們應該也很清楚你們還花錢買那個東西是在做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
23562.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
23573.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
但我還是要回到這件事情就是說因為過去這幾年就法務部跟司法院來來回回 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
23574.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
23596.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
每一次科證法不同時期的版本其實我都有看過我都有看過在不同時期的版本裡面我相信法務部非常的清楚司法院也很清楚你們都有參與你們都有參與在不同時期的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
23597.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
23624.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
每一次在科證法最後如果有罰則的話是針對什麼設置罰則其實是針對小木馬其實是針對小木馬有特別罰則的只有針對小木馬那為什麼就其他GPS的部分沒有去設特別的罰則因為你們也很清楚知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
23626.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
23645.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
違法使用那個你們就回到普通刑法去加以處罰那否則的話當初那麼多年的版本針對除了小木馬以外的證據收集方法如果有違法的話都沒有設法則喔都沒有設法則喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
23647.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
23675.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那這一次就柯真法的版本最後刪減掉把什麼小木馬、大木馬那些全部都排除掉了以後就回到了可能大家爭議最小的部分那些爭議最小的部分事實上在你們本來柯真法的版本裡面通通都沒有設法則為什麼通通都沒有設法則不代表說沒有設法則你就可以亂搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
23676.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
23704.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
而四、你們也知道在刑法規範的體力當中你牽涉到個人相對應的法益的時候本來就有法條可以用刑法針對不同個人法益你以非法的方式去侵害到個人法益的時候本來就有相對應的法條可以用否則的話當初用GPS的那個海巡他是怎麼被判刑的那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
23705.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
23727.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
到最後目前的這個階段可能在立法體力上面有所爭執的時候才趕快我某個程度上面我會覺得說趕快加一些好像可以相對應的條文但是在刑法的體力本身的作為一個以刑事手段作為後盾的法益保障法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
23728.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
23753.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
法律保障法裡面的刑法本來就有進行規範你們現在用特別法的方法只是把事情搞得越來越複雜不僅把證據能力的部分拉到一個特別法裡面而不是讓它回歸刑事訴訟法那第二個部分第二個部分就變成了是你事後你還是要去處理有關於法規競合 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
23754.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
23769.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
的問題．所以我才說你們把事情搞得越來越複雜．你們可以看一看．你們之前．在通．就是在科．在科證法歷次不同的版本的條文、理由．你們所提出的意見． |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
23770.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
23787.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
包括法務部也好包括司法院也好因為我看完的時候在那個階段裡面你們從來沒有針對除了小木馬、大木馬以外說在科證法裡面要立法者現在立法者是什麼現在是立法者是可能牽涉到立法體力的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
23789.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
23804.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
某個程度上就是為了要提特別法而在後面塞法則有一點畏負心遲搶說愁我可能比較粗略的比例是這個樣子否則的話前面那麼多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
23807.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
23834.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
我沒有去統計啊來來回回這麼多版本裡面就M號車等等的部分根本沒有設法者根本沒有設法者難道你們當初司法院法務部是認為說那些行為亂搞不需要處罰嗎不是嘛因為你們心裡很清楚嘛如果違反了就回去刑法處罰就好了嘛如果是公務員假借職務上的機會方法刑法本來就有加重期刑的規定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
23835.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
23851.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
個人的法律保障法．比如說三一五條之一．如果是公務員假借職務上的權利機會或方法放．他那邊也有加重期刑的規定．以上是我的看法其實我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
23862.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
23890.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
第一個,事實上這個科證法在我們在委員會的時候跟莊惠雄委員的意見是非常接近的那對科證法我們也提出了很多關於法律實體條文裡面的一些我們的一些疑慮那我今天看到民進黨的這個修正動議裡面其實大體上都有放進去了包括說對於所謂的那個犯罪嫌疑人跟第三人你的那個科技偵察發動的條件應該要有所區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
23890.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
23918.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
包括說針對那個GPS即便是沒有滿連續二十四小時應該也要把它加入所謂有通知義務這些規定我覺得基本上這實體的法律的內容意見我覺得我跟莊育雄委員的意見一直都一致那我看到民進黨的修正東西也放進去我覺得這一點是我也是支持的但是對於法的體力的部分我覺得事實上黃國昌委員也好或是中線委員也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
23919.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
23942.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
希望能夠說不要讓這個特別法肥大化放進刑訴法裡面在相應的法律有所一個體系上的適用的怎麼講會比較清楚在運用上我覺得也比較不會產生混淆這個部分我覺得應該也是採取刑訴法的一個優點所以我倒是認為說也許可以有一個折衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
23942.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
23961.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
就是基本上當然我是覺得行政機關不要用這個刑訴法要再去做修正在刑訴法裡面認為說好像又多一道工要多一點麻煩來從這個角度來去思考說今天一定要用一個專法來去做但如果說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
23961.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
23980.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
考量到說我們今天這個法的體系的完整性或是說今天實際上結構的周延性的話那我是比較認同吳宗憲委員跟黃國昌委員但是對於法律的實質內容的修正的部分我就還蠻認同民進黨提出的這個修正東西我是覺得有沒有可能就整合一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
23981.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
24009.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
就實質的條文內容就把這個民進黨版的修正動議放到我們的法律條文內容但是修法體力上的話能不能就還是尊重就是我們這個兩位這個委員中憲委員跟那個我們的國昌委員這是我提的一個折衷的一個做法那各位黨團幹部我們已經討論了非常久嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員等一下發言完畢之後我們先休息黃金五分鐘大家再溝通一下看看如果沒辦法達成我就必須要處理了好嗎?請中嘉賓委員進 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
24010.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24027.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
好,謝謝主席也謝謝剛剛羅委員的發言非常感謝在科偵法的協商當中我們羅委員充分的參與那麼也跟我們的莊委員有速度的對話都是為了要精進讓這樣的一個偵察法科技偵察法能夠完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24029.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24050.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
提供犯罪偵訪所必要的工具．也能夠確保人權的保障．再發現事實跟保障人權都能夠兼顧．所以我就剛剛聽得這樣一輪下來．感覺上．對於這樣的科偵法也好．刑事訴訟法也好．反而是法律人對於法體力．會比較有所堅持．像我們這些非法律專業的人．都覺得像羅委員一樣．我們就務實． |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24051.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24079.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
可以用．好用．在著立法經濟效率上的比較高的．我們就可以採用．到於對於體力何者回憶．孰優孰劣．其實我們聽了雙方的不同的意見．都覺得可以接受．這一點我大概是蠻跟羅遠一樣的．那現在就拉回來談．那麼因為這兩個不同的體力．如果我們還是僵持在體力之爭．感覺上好像可能院長就比較感受．華山派．華山論見有見忠跟器忠． |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24079.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24098.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
每次兩派子弟華山論劍有人說劍中說劍中的好氣中說氣中的棒對不對但是氣中好劍中也好誰的武功秘籍傳下來學的人多學的人強那才是重要所以現在我們不來論氣中跟劍中不再讓體力上是損失法還是專法我們來論既有的版本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24099.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24123.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
怎麼樣已經它的條文已經完備性已經具備了我們用相對較少的時間能夠就已經比較完備的版本來加以處理我想這在立法上不管在協商上是一個很務實的做法啦不要再去論器中見中了啦哪一套功夫現在大家練一練學會可以打得倒壞人這個就是好的武功啦所以我看一看是說其實我也覺得也不用再去指 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24123.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24149.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
在過去為了捍衛自己的這個立法體力不管是訴訟法還是一個專法我們就開始要強化自己過去不足的地方也不用再去翻對方說過去你們其實也沒有怎麼樣也少了什麼還不是一樣照做我覺得這個討論呢都是這樣過去去好像表達說誰才是正宗的我就不用我們往未來看那現在呢大家手上就這兩個版本有一個科證法的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24150.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24169.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
他將全部的條文內容上都已經做了一個處理那相對的也有刑訴法的部分也有一個版本那我是不是建議說就這兩個版本比較成熟的部分我們就進入法條來討論把剛剛包括專委委員所講的羅委員所講的這些內容我們所需要放進的內容把它加以肯認 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24170.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24187.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那肯認好之後呢,我們說不定兩個版本看完了,我們覺得那兩個版本比較成熟,我們來得及再交付,完成協商可以交付用的表決,這個在時間效益上來考量,這個比較務實啦,我只做這樣的一個建議,因為我不是見忠也不是器忠,因為我們不是華山弟子,比較不會那麼堅持。那,好,請檢討。 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24194.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24217.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我聽了一輪,如果講委員講的,他高度肯定現在重新調過了有四個條文嘛因為你們委員審查我都在注意,他們都有跟我反映,是我主持的調版本的,我要講清楚所以你講的說,既然站在這邊又要折衷,現在已經沒有這條路可以走了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24218.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24241.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
怎麼可能再篩到刑訴區了現在不管是司法院他認為應該在科證法嘛那法部也應該在科證法這兩個單位都是這樣的主張我們硬要說把它拆掉坦白講我們也不必太勉強啦因為這個是立法到現在為止我們找到司法不過不行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24242.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24264.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
然後沒有那個所謂的說兩個都把三、研又再選擇,現在是一條路可以走的我認為齁,連鄭家斌他自己也本來提提起訴他也撤案了嘛所以今天不是又在講說什麼某個都擦擦可以撿到寶貝,那沒有那事情了嘛那個已經不可得了,那不是成熟的,我認為不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24266.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24280.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
兩個司法院議員講得很清楚、法務委也講得很清楚（甚至司法院講到說將來執法法規（他們都很難立了（如果要裁給他們的話都很困難的（所以這已經是一條路的選擇（我覺得大家放棄民主的問題（ |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24281.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24309.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
因為那這個從一開始有這個之爭但是呢現在已經應該要拖以那個時刻了因為已經調了四個版本了嘛它原來的都不一樣了嘛所以我還是很懇謝拜託說我們應該趕快做一個因為這個法不過也不行也很急的嘛你們從又要再寶貝再比再表決兩個案子這個不對的這是一個很務實而很緊急啊道西齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24310.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24336.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
倒是有關於歷史比喻嫌的部分．在刑事我們也一併給它通過這樣比較實際也不存在說你是不是委員所說的大學生都沒有讀過大學生沒有讀過法律一大堆我現在五年通過大學生都沒有讀過我不要這種理論好不好我有反對大家不要務實一點而且不要有藍綠的因為這打詐事必須我們一屆明天要通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24337.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24339.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
所以必須要有一個選擇,如果要保保的話,我們來拚難力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24348.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24371.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
其實我覺得一部分認同柯總召的意見但事實上我覺得並不衝突為什麼?因為事實上本來就是有法律實體條文我們大家有一些主張然後本來的條文有一些設計很好但是後來不知道在委員會審查的時候我們就提出了很多問題那我看到民進黨的那個版本有把這個問題放進去我覺得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24371.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24400.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
但是這個是實體條文內容的部分那事實上立法體力的部分本來就是兩個不同層次的議題我覺得倒是沒有說一定要混在一起講啦那事實上你也可以一個做法就是說我們針對現在院版的或是針對國民黨版或民眾黨版的我們把一些修正動議把裡面有關於人權保障的部分你可以把它做得更細緻一點這是一個做法但是我認為條文內容既然要做就做好了那也不要說是因為說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24401.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24408.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
條文內容我們在這邊怎麼討論所以我們立法體力一定要如何如何這兩個是不同層次的問題我覺得應該分開來看以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
25618.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
25634.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
各位黨團幹部、各位列席的閣員、官員,現在我們今天的協商,容許我把協商的結論把它唸出來。時間一百一三年七月十一號新一四上午十點三十分到現在第一點一場三樓會議室協商主題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
25635.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
25660.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
並按協商．一、司法及法制委員會審查行政院函請審議科技偵察及保障法草案．二、十七、蔡易瑜等十七位委員凝聚科技偵察及保障法草案．三、林怡瑾等二十一位委員凝聚科技偵察及保障法草案．四、我們協商的結論明稱第一條至第十一條均保留送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
25662.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
25670.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
這是我們今天協商的結論好不好,請各位黨團幹部我們簽,對我們可以處理前我們可以繼續協商,好那麻煩請各位黨團幹部來簽字 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
25711.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
25719.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
各位黨團幹部,現在我們下一案（刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案等案（ |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
25721.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
25745.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
本案（司法及法制委員會並審查司法院及行政院、臺灣民眾黨黨團、羅志強等二十七位委員、吳宗憲等二十位委員、鍾嘉斌等十八位委員、沈伯陽等十八位委員提案其中鍾嘉斌等十八人提案經本院第十一屆第一會期第二十次會議同意撤回 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
25746.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
25772.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我們現在審查的情況跟與會所有的幹部報告審查會於一百一三年六月十二日審查完畢審查的結果有兩項一、有關徵定科技偵查專章之各題案章名及條文均保留二、第二百四十五條偵查中辯護人筆記權徵定第二百四十五條之一及第四百一十六條禁憲處分之救濟保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
25773.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
25800.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
協商情況 國民黨團於七月四日召集協商由召集委員吳宗憲委員主持本日會議協商《刑事訴訟法有關徵定科技偵察專章之各提案及條文》已經充分討論是否均予以保留送院會處理現在我們處理第兩百四十五條筆記權等三條看各位委員、各位黨團幹部有什麼寶貴的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
25809.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
25817.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
請柯建民總召請法演請蘇萊恩法務部那我們請法務部先說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
25822.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
25842.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
好,謝謝那關於刑事訴訟法這個兩百四十五條那這個司法院跟行政院會嫌含情審議是對於這個偵查中辯護人的這個筆記權的部分那麼我們認為說這個因為是憲法法庭的判決有它的時效性那麼經過司法院跟法務部這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
25845.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
25867.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
會嫌提出的版本,我們認為足以保障律師相關的權益也兼顧訴訟指揮當中關於偵查上面的資料不公開以及國家行使刑罰權程序上必須確保這個利益所以我們建議依照法務部跟司法院的版本來通過以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
25872.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
25893.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
主席、各位委員關於這一個刑訴245之一這個我們大概司法院跟保護部都協商過那我們就是依照那個兩院版這一部分請委員支持謝謝司法院黃副院長的補充那公眾委員版本是不是一樣?長得一樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
25895.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
25922.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
沒有,他們兩個就是他們有匯錢,有當然有溝通好的嘛那現在就是說,現在用哪一個版本嘛?對,那黃國昌委員也有提案嘛,是長得一樣,只要你用就...驗版可以嗎?好,那就這樣好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
25923.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
25945.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
麻煩請黃國昌總召請發言因為我們上次在討論的時候我有請教過一個問題就是說政治修法會出來上一次那個裁判他所出現具體的問題是說就明明跟你講不可以做了你還去做嘛那我們現在給他筆記權沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
25947.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
25956.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
但我們給他的筆記權是有附例外的在例外的情況之下你還是不能做那你們發現接下來在實際上面操作的時候當發現他 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
25961.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
25987.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
符合例外的狀況,他卻仍在抄筆記的時候那這個時候,力挺的檢察官要怎麼處理?現在在這個條文裡面,你們所採取的立場以及給檢察官們他們具體的行為規範是什麼?因為當初在那個案子裡面是直接就把他那個筆記給沒收了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
25988.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
26014.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
現在是說可以做筆記所以只要可以做筆記就沒有沒收筆記的問題那如果是例外不可以做筆記的話卻發現他來做筆記這個時候檢察官該怎麼做你們給檢察官的行為規範是什麼我記得我們上次我忘了在委員會實質討論條文還是在協商的時候我有具體把這個問題提出來然後你們一直說你們還在思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
26015.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
26025.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那今天這樣子司法院跟法務部有共識的條文對剛剛我所提的那個問題你們思考的結論是什麼麻煩請法務部黃司長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
26026.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
26046.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
據我們了解上次有提出來事實上在現行法底下假官若認為律師在作筆記的時候有犯罪嫌疑的時候也是可以當體擊破的情形作為證據之物可以把他扣押當然事後要受法官審查法官保留審查要報 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
26047.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
26052.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
26068.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
26090.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
當然這個部分我們認為就是給檢察官更大的權限可以來做這個執行是我們認為當然對我們來講是有利的但是可能那時候討論的時候司法院認為這樣子的一個扣押的要件是不是符合人權的保障以及事後製造這個法官審查的這個困難這個應該由司法院來說明這樣子以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
26092.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
26092.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
主席、各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
26104.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
26127.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那因為我們看到那個黃國昌委員提的這一個剛才所講這種情況底下那麼是建議要扣押啦那因為這一個扣押我們第一個懷疑說這扣押跟我一般扣押的這個概念並不相當啦扣押通常都是針對得為證據跟得沒收之物嘛那現在他到底有沒有構成刑事犯罪也不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
26129.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
26145.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
如果說以再假設這個是發生在法院的時候,那麼通常進行在法院就要依照我們法院組織法有法庭警察權法庭警察權,法官禁止的行刑底下,他違反的時候是由法庭警察權會法法院組織法本身有處罰,但是那個處罰也不是直接對付強制處分而是認為你違反法院的命令有點藐視法庭這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
26153.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
26167.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
所以說,我們對這一條文的疑義是說,如果在法院底下的這種違反法院的命令都還沒有到隊伍強制執行的時候,能不能在偵查程序只在警察要求的時下,底下就給他這樣的權限。我們是覺得說,超過法官可以給的權限。 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
26172.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
26177.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那這個有一點疑問至於說剛才那個黃委員所提到具體的個案應該怎麼樣處理比較好當然剛才黃次財有講如果說他有構成具體的犯罪當然可以偵查那如果說他有因為這個具體的行為妨礙我們是假設啦妨礙那個警察跟檢察官執行公務那有沒有妨礙公務上面的相關的問題我們只是假設是這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
26198.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
26198.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
再請黃國昌總召發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
26219.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
26222.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
對於第一線在辦案的檢察官最困擾的狀況就是我不知道該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
26246.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
26265.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
我所採取的行動有沒有法律的授權我們當初是為了要在這個情況下有一個清楚的法律的依據而且不是只是片面的授權給他你接下來還是要受法官審查嗎所以我才會說去用後面的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
26267.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
26287.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
現在你們的意思是不需要這個條文不需要這個條文我也沒堅持但我覺得我們總是要讓第一線的檢察官知道發生這個狀況他該怎麼辦那你們今天給的答案似乎是你們自己看著辦我聽起來是這樣如果有誤會的話再請你們指正 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
26289.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
26313.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
法務部請補充好,謝謝主席跟這個文補充說明那我們剛意思是講就是說因為其實在委員所提出的條文裡面呢最後還是要回到法官之後來做審查嘛那在現行法底下呢檢察官是必須要主張這個扣押的程序就算是得為證據之物啦或是有犯罪嫌疑的時候他才可以用現有的扣押條文來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
26315.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
26334.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
但是如果徵令這個條文的話當然大家就可以依據這個條文在我做這個禁止或者是限制你做筆記的時候你違反的話我就可以直接扣押但是我們是考慮到後面還是要回到法官的審查所以我才會請司法院去表明說假設這個條文定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
26336.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
26354.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
那現在檢察官依照這個條文來做扣押了之後後面依照準用的規定去報的時候我們司法院在那邊的態度是法官用什麼標準來審查如果又回到這個要得為證據之物或是得人情形的話他才要准的話那其實這一條可能就會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
26355.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
26371.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
因為我剛剛聽這個黃富密他的說法其實他是認為這個條文本身就賦予對物的強制處分在要件上面跟其他相類似的情形可能會認為這個授權的範圍有點過廣所以司法院本身並不是很贊成如果司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
26372.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
26397.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
在這件事上不贊成那立了這個條文之後後面就讓檢察官其實我沒有理由反對這一條對法務部來講當然如果我可以直接做扣押我有這個法律授權依據當然我很高興我可以這個訴訟只會上更大的權限但是如果後續的法官的審查並不支持的話那我想這個是我們的疑慮所在所以我才會這樣子做說明以上補充報告謝謝法務部的再次說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
26399.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
26419.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
黃國昌總長您暫時發言請您剛剛說的我理解但是你只解釋了你們跟司法院的關係那我只希望法務部清楚的說那檢察官這時候該怎麼辦就直接call了還是不要call這個時候到底該怎麼辦我還是沒有聽出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
26420.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
26440.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
就是回到刑事訴訟法現有的規定假設沒有這一條的話當檢察官現場認為這個違反禁止規定這是筆記的行為因為其實訴訟指揮的過程其實千變萬化這個律師或辯護人他違規的行為到底是什麼性質其實也為能一概而論 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
26440.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
26459.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那如果說這一條沒有定的話,那麼就是依照現在的刑事訴訟法規定．跟我們過去的案例所顯示．事實上如果他認為這個行為已經構成犯罪嫌疑．還是一樣可以依照現有的規定去做扣押．所以就是他必須要負責去主張這件事情不是啊,但這個會構成犯罪行為嗎?蛤?你們認為會構成什麼犯罪行為可以講清楚一點嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
26468.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
26469.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這要看實際的案件然後具體的情況來判斷這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
26496.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
26512.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
假設在這個黃次長你在我我授你偵訊你講偵訊我做就輸我大旁邊我在那抄抄抄後你告訴我你這個可能會有勾串證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
26515.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
26532.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
國篡政人．大部分都用這一條．什麼國家秘密那個未必來．因為有些根本沒有涉及到國家．大部分都有共犯的情況之下．你跟我說我沒有停職．我繼續寫．我是違反你的命令而已． |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
26534.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
26543.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
我要勾串,這怎麼會過成刑責?我要勾串,我也要真正去被告,哎,副秘,來來來,你,你,剛才你,我要去跟你講,我要去跟你討論了,我們兩個討論,這樣怎麼會有勾串?要不然我單純繼續再記載,不理你,除非有,你說在法庭上法官預知,嘖,這個妨礙法庭秩序而已咧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
26560.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
26581.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
我還沒有到這個違法的程度也沒有我是覺得也沒有我這大家這樣溝通啦你說除非我已經到了最後就是我去把我這個抄出來的訊息跑去跟共同被告那邊跟他在那邊好像跟他故意去跟他走漏風聲或者去跟他通風報信這個才會該當啊否則我光這個抄這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
26586.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
26587.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
請柯建民總長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
26612.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
26641.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這個一定比以前當然大關事實我們要注意的至於要扣押一定要有要件嘛你沒有提出要件怎麼扣押是不是這樣所以扣押這個有沒有必須要扣押哪種情況要扣押其實他只要記筆記而已所以這部分也沒有需要再寫吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
26646.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
26651.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
你怎麼認定他當場沒有犯法?除非他馬上傳簡訊出去還是怎麼樣?那就可以當場制止?相對法律上應該有吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
26670.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
26698.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
我們請黃國昌總召再發言,謝謝對不起,我大概只講最後一次啦因為我覺得我好像在幫法務部抄法務部該抄的心我老實說這真的是法務部該抄的心那你們如果法務部最後的立場還是決定沒有關係的話我不會堅持但書的情況如果有妨礙國家機密的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
26701.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
26712.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
說檢察官跟律師講你不要抄喔你不要抄結果他還是抄了他還是抄了被發現他抄了抄在那個筆記上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
26715.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
26739.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我要攜帶這個筆記離開法庭這個時候檢察官可以做什麼你說他這個行為本身構成犯罪我就很困惑他到底構成了什麼犯罪他還沒有開始洩漏這個機密給任何第三人他只是單純要把這個東西帶出去那難不成你要從他帶走的時候開始監控他看他是不是有把這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
26741.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
26770.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
帶給任何第三人這操作起來你們真的會讓到時候檢察官真的不知道該怎麼辦你現場說我要把你這個東西扣起來那你說回到一般扣押的那你要回到一般扣押的是它符合什麼樣子的要件我當初是希望把這件事情怎麼處理的程序給明確化讓第一線的檢察官不要那麼累 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
26771.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
26800.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
不要那麼累因為你要把它全部都拿掉說交給檢察官個案判斷我老實說我不會堅持就按照他們的條文但我覺得話要說清楚你們今天這樣子做的決定未來的檢察官還是會很困惑那我們以後到底該怎麼辦是要目送他帶著那個筆記離開還是要把他扣下來如果要把他扣下來我的法律依據到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
26803.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
26824.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
請法務部再說明就是說我還是要再表明一次事實上對於這個事情我們並不反對我們也支持若要賦予警察官這個權利的話但是我們的疑慮一直在於說未來法院在警察官做這個動作之後他會用什麼標準來審查我這個扣押的行為所以我們才認為說因為這個刑事訴訟法也是司法院主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
26825.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
26826.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
司法院還要不要再補充? |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
26846.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
26868.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
認為這個法律體系我們是建議要做整體的這個思考這個扣押不知道是什麼樣的扣押不是我們刑事訴訟體系裡面的扣押那後續它的這些效果如何可能我們都會產生疑義如果說有必要做處理可能要做進一步的去研議跟思考我們覺得這個條文直接這樣子規範去運用恐怕會產生疑問 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
26872.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
26887.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
可是我不堅持就按照你們兩邊講好的條文過就好就按照你們但我建議一個針對這個部分提一個附帶決議因為你說你要去處理嘛就不要空空說白話 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
26888.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
26917.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
復呆決議的文字要寫成什麼樣子讓你們理沒有關係我建議這樣條文我不堅持你們兩邊講好就講好了但從剛剛的討論聽得出來你們兩邊也同意我們本來希望要處理那個問題按照你們通過的條文恐怕是沒有辦法處理所以你們還要再回去想那沒有關係給你們這樣子的時間跟空間但我覺得這件事情在立法的過程裡面要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
26918.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
26931.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
所以我是不是建議說按照他們的條文通過但提一個附帶決議就看司法院跟法務部這邊就在這樣的情況之下要怎麼處理他們必須要做一個研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
26951.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
26961.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
二百四十五條我有提案修正就是在這個四十五條的最後一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
26963.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
26979.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
第一項偵查不公開之作業與處罰令與法律定之那我先跟各位說為什麼今天我想要提這個因為實際上在一百零六年司法國事改革會議第三次會議就已經講出了避免媒體不當報導成為輿論公審現象做出決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
26983.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
26996.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
認為要落實違反偵查不公開必須負行政懲戒及刑事責任然後由權責機關依法定程序調查處理並與言語究責這是司法國事會議的結論七年過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
27000.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
27028.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
偵查不公開已經變成我們司法最大的笑話不客氣的講啦現在叫偵查大公開時代我遠的齁什麼林志廟、高鴻安、楊文科的案子都不講在發動任何的偵查手段開始的前或是中就有特定媒體把所有的案情全部報導而且全部是對當事人不利我不要講這麼遠的喔我就講鄭文燦案嘛不就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
27030.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
27055.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
繼續迷移啊那換言之偵查不公開就是無罪推定原則的一個非常重要的精神就是不讓今天司法單位藉由偵犯案件來帶風向先用輿論將這個犯罪嫌疑人定罪然後方便將來去訴罪他那我舉個例比如說貪污的那個很多的一些貪污案件涉及貪污案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
27056.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
27081.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
當偵查大公開去報導當事人之後你就發現最後定罪於六成那我想問那四成沒有被定罪的人被這個所謂偵查大公開那個刨落一遍之後對他們的公平正義何在那我再舉一個數字就知道我們今天當然我看那個法務部一直跟我講你們自己有內控啊你們也在檢討啊不需要用這個法律的層級來定啊我也不想用法律層級來定啊我直接講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
27082.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
27108.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
如果你過去績效夠好我也不用被逼到說要提法律層級來定我們從一百零八年到一百一十二年整理了七千兩百五十五件機關收集資料有違反偵查部公開之語那最後呢認為說確實有這個相關的疑慮的有三百八十二件所以列入檢討七千兩百五十五件然後最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
27109.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
27119.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
檢察官被起訴零人、行政處分十五人總共的跟這個比例只有千分之二、百分之四跟百分之七 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
27120.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
27145.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
我必須講如果偵查不公開因為沒有法則因為沒有一個真的行政的責任在上面你做一個具體的法規範的話就算今天的結果今天結果是因為反正檢察官或是司法單位偵查公開了你不用負擔任何責任倒楣的是今天被偵查公開的當事人完全破壞我們今天無罪推定的這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
27146.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
27155.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
所以今天為什麼在刑訴法我最後一項,二四五最後一項我提案要用法律,法治化今天偵查不公開的這件事情,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
27167.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
27196.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
不對 這個應該是司法院就是在這二十五條原條文當中他第一項寫偵查不公開之第二項就是包括被告及犯罪嫌疑人等等等到第三項他這裡所寫的就是屬於檢察官、檢察事務官、司法檢察官、司法檢察辯護人告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務之人員好在那邊除就從這裡開始除依法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
27197.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
27223.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
或為維護公共利益或保護合法權益有必要者外那麼這個偵查中因執行職務窒息之事項不得公開或介入與執行法定職務必要範圍以外之人員那這裡面就有一個除什麼之外除這裡面所寫的維護公共利益、保護合法權益有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
27223.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
27235.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
那這個關於這樣的內容目前在實務上你們有沒有訂定什麼相關的規範這也是剛剛羅委員所說的因為目前我們這裡它所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
27237.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
27258.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
現在的修正條文當中在行政院版的部分它放在最後一項它是由司法院會同行政院定制那是辦法但是因為羅委員這邊是認為要處罰所以利用法律定制那目前到底這兩者的差異跟你們這個除書內容的具體執行上的規範到底實況上如何能不能跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
27262.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
27265.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
我再補充一下就是說目前剛剛講的除書的內容是否就是你們目前行政院版最後一項第一項偵查不公開的作業辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
27283.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
27292.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
你們就可以根據剛剛講的除書的內容去制定這就是法律的依據就是你們第一最後一項所說的第一項政黨不公開做辦法的法律依據請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
27295.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
27322.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
跟主席還有我們所有委員來報告那我想這個現在剛剛周大斌委員所唸的那個最後一項就是作業辦法這個是現行條文就有了所以這個作業辦法是由司法院會統我們行政院就法務部這邊來定的所以它本身它的位階就是一個法規命令就是授權的法規命令那所以其實位階已經相當高它不是一個行政規則而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
27325.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
27346.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
剛剛鍾委員有唸到第十三項的部分所以這個其實就已經規範了相關的甲官、檢視官、司法警察等等甚至包含辯護人員跟告訴代人他們的義務、他們的保密的義務所以在法律的層面事實上他們的行為義務都已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
27348.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
27375.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
當然我過去也很關心這個題目所以我也非常重視我接任之後我們部裡面也針對剛才羅翔委員所提的過去偵查部在作業辦法的執行狀況做一個檢討也開了這個精進的會議這邊補充說明就是說所說的七千多案事實上確實是因為我們是由各地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
27376.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
27393.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
自己來做對內部的管控所以是各地檢署自己的行政人員每天看報章雜誌然後就自己列了這些案件所以各地檢署其實過去這個標準不一有的地檢署其實列了很多案檢討之後其他部分都沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
27394.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
27416.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
27418.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
27443.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
這個表格上不能只有這個數字必須要針對這一些討論的個案裡面到底什麼狀況要復解、要理由第三個,這一個如果發現任何有問題的話因為這個所謂的洩密或是說透露案情不一定是只發生在檢察官本身或是說地檢署裡面也有可能相關這個共同辦案的這一些人員都有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
27443.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
27467.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
所以也要求說若發生這些情形的話應該要主動罰函並且追蹤這一些自我檢討認為有違反政策不公開一律的案件要列管來執行這個是目前法務部在行政措施上面所做的精心作為在這邊跟所有的委員補充說明關於羅站委員今天的提案在方向上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
27468.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
27488.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
這一個到底要用法律的位階來定或是維持現在法規命令這個當然可以討論不過我會懇請委員支持就是說這一次因為我們可能沒有接軌的問題如果現在馬上就修法通過要用法律來定的話那現行的作業辦法到底還適不適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
27490.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
27506.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
所以可能讓我們先就這個現行的作業辦法跟他執行了我們來做一些精進的作為之後大家再討論是不是必須要以單獨的專法的方式來訂定才能夠符合大家的期待以上跟這個大院來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
27511.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
27522.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
我還是那句話雖然說七千多件是你們的各檢察機關的統計落差但是我跟法務部講非常符合人民觀感啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
27524.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
27544.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
現在你出去問問看,到底我們人民認為偵查是公開還是不公開?我跟你保證,大家都認為偵查是公開的因為幾乎每一個案子只要稍微有點社會矚目度,都是偵查公開然後到最後到現在法務部、主管機關根據現行的作業辦法去查辦的結果,就是績效就是一塌糊塗 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
27544.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
27562.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
完全沒有任何對政大部公開的任何的一點強制跟約束所以今天我才會希望用法律的方式來去提高它的位階當然我接受你剛剛講的作業辦法現在正在運作當中但是第一個你的作業辦法運作那個績效到現在我也沒看到你的績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
27563.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
27592.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
二、如果真的覺得說有這個銜接的問題的話我覺得可以設計日出條款啊給你一個法定的一個期限嘛這期限然後到時候你就把作業辦法變成是所謂的法律從法規命令變法律那我認為中間真正重點是什麼必須法律明文規定處罰的方式啊就是要有一個約束力你以現在的做法就是法規命令的話只是講作業辦法由司法院會同行政院定之不痛不癢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
27593.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
27604.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
如果靠法務部的內控能夠解決這個問題今天也不用討論這個問題因為偵查公開幾乎是全民共識完全破壞我們無罪推定的法治原則以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
27605.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
27623.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
好,謝謝羅志祥偉那跟各位黨團幹部報告齁那這個兩百四十五條顯然大家的意見非常的分不一致啦我想我們就繼續溝通我們先往下一條兩百四十五條之一來討論如果大家有什麼其他意見我們回頭來再說好不好因為這大家意見不一我們等一下再協商那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
27625.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
27636.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我們現在就進入兩百四十五條之一好不好對等一下等一下沒有關係那我們請法務部勒麻煩黃次長再辛苦一下我們兩百四十五條之一請說明好不好行政版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
27641.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
27661.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
主要是針對兩百四十五條的這個後續救濟的程序性的規定那這部分我們也懇請大院支持依照配套的規定當初保留應該是因為兩百四十五條保留所以一併保留的所以如果說能夠依照前面的規定來通過的話後面懇請大家一致來支持以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
27666.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
27667.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
黃國昌總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
27686.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
27710.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那本來只是設計前面的救濟程序那因為它前面已經規定在兩百四十五條之一特別做救濟程序了所以我們就集中火力在兩百四十五條之一就好所以四百十六條的部分不予增列我們同意那我們四百十六條就不予修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
27713.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
27718.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那兩百四十五條及兩百四十五條之一等下我們喊一個休息時間我們大家可以溝通一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
27749.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
27757.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
沒有,我講一下,這個正常公開泄密的環節很多,連法警都可能,大部分都是法警 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
27761.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
27775.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
當然旁邊聽嘛,有宋公文的,都有,從調查局開始到警察官哪個警察官特定會跟哪個媒體配合,這個大家都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
27995.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
28022.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
各位黨團幹部、各位閣員、官員我想我把我們暫時一個草原協商的結論先唸出來以後再請大家用餐請大家仔細聆聽兩位總召請仔細聆聽好不好柯總召跟副總召因為這跟你柯總召提的有關係柯總召這下面跟你提的有一點關係我先宣布一下以後大家開始用餐大家有意見的話再表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
28024.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
28051.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
第一點跟大家報告科證法跟刑訴法在立法政策上各黨團意見尚未一致但打詐釋法是民間民眾期盼的法案希望各黨團能夠繼續溝通、把握時間希望能夠順利完成這些法案的處理二、剛才科證法的協商結論是均保留院會處理但是民進黨的柯總召有表示希望院會處理前要再繼續協商請問國民黨團跟民眾黨團有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
28054.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
28072.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
如果沒有意見的話就繼續協商就這樣也跟兩位黨團報告一下第三、如果有不同意見跟打詐有關的科證法、專法以及刑訴修正我們就請黨團來繼續溝通一、議事規定來處理大致上是這樣子那我們先休息請用餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
28084.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
28093.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
剩下其實我們要處理到哪一個法只要處理到通保法的話很快了通保法結束嘛新住民那個還早 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
28106.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
28122.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
明天還可以協商嗎?明天還可以協商?禮拜一還可以協商?對!所以還好啦!那新住民還早啦!市長不好意思啊!副民主黨不好意思!大家請用餐!我看你今天要通保就好了!院長!今天要通保法! |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
31008.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
31035.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
謝謝謝謝各位黨團的幹部、各位列席的閣員、官員現在有新增幾位列席的官員代表剛才不在現場我現在補充介紹一下內政部移民署的江副組長江副組長還沒到齁他這邊名字列上去的等一下請內政部的官員稍微注意一下交通部的交通產業發展及國際事務司的政績證歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
31037.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
31056.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
衛生福利部的張專門委員國家安全局的第五處的馬副處長中華郵政公司的吳副總歡迎這些名字打上去單位都已經在這裡怎麼人都不在了 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
31058.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
31060.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
個人資料保護委員會的嚴科長,歡迎你 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
31072.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
31093.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
好,沒關係。好,謝謝各位黨團幹部。我們現在接下來討論通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正案本案司法及法治委員會並在審查行政院及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案。審查情形,審查會於一百一三年六月六日審查完畢。審查結果,第五條、第六條、第十一條之一及第三十一條保留。 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
31094.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
31116.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
院會第十八次會議（將林怡瑾等二十一位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商現在協商情況跟各位黨團幹部報告一、民黨團於六月二十八日召集協商由鍾嘉斌召集委員主持二、協商結果第五條、第六條、第十一條之一及第三十一條均照協商內容通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
31117.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
31141.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
協商結論並未完成簽署另一院會第二十次會議．再將羅志強等十六位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商保障條例四條先前協商據以共識另一新增．羅志強委員提案需協商兩條．第十五條及第十九條我們另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
31144.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
31165.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
還有鍾嘉斌委員等十八人提案及蔡易瑜等十八位委員提案自委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並附於本次協商會議並按後新增協商條文一條、第十八條之一合計本案須協商三條第十五條、第十八條之一及第十九條我們先請羅志強委員請說明第十九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
31172.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
31174.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
第四九頁跟第二十頁19、20頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
31178.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
31202.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
那這次這個通保法的一個修法雖然說增加所謂的通信記錄跟網路流量記錄的這些調取但是被調取人他無從獲知被調取的行為以至於無法從事救濟所以也沒有辦法去明定違法調取應負的損害賠償責任所以為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
31205.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
31211.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
確保我們人權保障的周延．所以我在第十五條就甄列最後一項就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
31213.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
31240.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
第六、前六項規定與本法調取他人通訊紀錄與網路流量紀錄之情形一準用之所以換言之如果真的有所謂的偵查犯罪的必要你要去調取通訊紀錄跟網路流量紀錄的話應該要比照通保法第十五條的規定在這個所謂的事後的部分的話應該要讓被調取人或知他有被調取的這個情形這第十五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
31241.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
31266.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
那第十九條就是如果有一些違法的一些調取的狀況的話那應該要負損害賠償的一個責任那這個就是把關於這個調取通訊記錄、通訊網路流量記錄的情況一樣是準用第十九條前面的三項的規定就是也可以有所謂的也要科以損害賠償責任以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
31271.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
31290.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
第四十五條條文還有沒有其他黨團的幹部想要發言我這邊也附帶提一下我這邊抽出近乎二讀並同協商的部分其實全部的條文都已經在協商的過程當中已經融入 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
31292.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
31317.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
對,我剛才講了,我剛所說的就是指中加兵等十八人所提的通保法第三條之一、第十一條之一、第十八條之一還有那個蔡委員的部分條文修正那因為本席在參與協商的時候呢雖然當時尚未有交付委員會那也是就其內容來參與協商所以原則上是跟協商內容意見一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
31318.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
31335.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
現在建議是就剛剛羅委員的第十五條、第十九條建議聽取因為我們在協商過程當中這個部分並還沒有有稍微講一下但是還沒有完整的把相關的意見收集齊所以建請就相關部門做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
31338.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
31364.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
那去法務部黃司長那辛苦一下謝謝謝謝主席那關於本次討論剛剛羅志強委員所提第十五條的部分那因為這個如果規定所有的通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄的調取事後都要來通知的話現行15帳比照這個監聽事實上都是由法院來執行的所以可能等一下要聽司法院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
31365.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
31388.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
我們這邊了解是因為件數相當多我們這次修法是新增網路人員紀錄通訊紀錄過去其實也都有在調取這個本來就是另狀的都是要經過法院同意的所以就是案件數恐怕相當的大這是第一個第十九條的部分因為其實這個當初就是為了要強化對於人民權益的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
31391 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
31399.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
事實上依照民法的規定本來如果違法就侵害到他們的權益就要負所在朋友責任所以外語證定的話我們也是支持不會反對以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
31406.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
31434.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
主席、各位委員那正如剛才黃正智所講的這一個羅委員增加這一個第十五條加上這一個通知的規定那個量是相當的多那當然可以預見說將來我們法院的這個通知的工作會增加非常非常的這個多那我們如何因應會是我們非常困擾的一個問題這是第一個第二個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
31436.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
31457.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
加上這個通知這個規定的時候也不知道這個規定的準用的結果是如何因為我們不是所有的調取通話都經過法院許可像十一條之一的第四款也就是重罪第四項那麼在十年以上有期徒刑的這些特殊案件的時候其實是不需要經過法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
31457.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
31481.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
不需要經過法院的話那準用的結果是還是要法院通知嗎?因為法院根本通的都不經過法院我不知道準用的結果還需要法院通知我們每個不知道那這種情形是不是得在這邊去做一個釐清或者是說準用的結果是性質相同才準用性質不相同當然不準用那恐怕也得在理由上面我們是建議要能夠釐清楚這一點因為我們從頭到尾都 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
31482.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
31487.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
因為他重罪,從頭到尾都沒有經過法院,不太可能是由我們法院去做通知,以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
31498.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
31521.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
當初提這個意見我覺得因為本來我針對像我跟專委選委員在關切的那個角度就是為了要所謂打詐、偵防犯罪我們事前會給這個相關的一些司法機關等於是有比較大的彈性跟時效作業空間但事後通知我是不太能接受所以人力局處為由來去做一所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
31521.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
31537.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
事後不用通知這個狀況,因為道理很簡單,我不管是調取任何記錄,事後通知其實也是賦予今天司法機關會更謹慎使用這個新的偵查工具的一個謹慎性 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
31538.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
31564.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
否則的話你調了以後就到最後當事人從頭到尾都不知道他連這個救濟連申訴甚至連損害賠償的發動都不知道那至於剛剛司法院那邊講說到底這準用情形如何我覺得司法院你可以來提一個覺得有什麼樣一個方式在條文上更明確但是我要強調的重點就是說我覺得不能夠說今天你去調取他之後結果呢我被調取我都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
31565.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
31581.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
那我覺得這種情形對於所謂的隱私侵犯那我覺得這一點我覺得是說不過去那當然另外一點我覺得剛剛聽了那個講這幾次溝通講那個人力的部分我覺得我倒是可以修正一個就通信記錄可以不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
31582.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
31609.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
我直接講啦,因為現在通信記錄根本就不重要啦因為現在也沒什麼人真的是在用電話的通信記錄在去做一些什麼的一些意識聯絡但是網路流量的記錄我覺得還是很重要因為畢竟現在人對網路的依賴度是非常高的所以你調取我的網路的足跡網路流量記錄的話我覺得這個是對我的隱私權侵犯你當然必須要事後要通知,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
31610.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
31637.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
謝謝羅思強委員的補充接下來請鍾嘉斌召委繼續發言好 那麼剛剛那個羅委員提到第十九條因為這個還是一個補充的說對於前三項規定與違法本法或其他法律之規定調取他人通訊記錄剛剛通訊記錄已經說明了那麼通訊通訊使用者資料那他們的說法是說升登資料啦那升登資料呢跟流量記網路流量記錄這個情況那麼也就是讓被調取的人因為在違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
31638.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
31648.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
違反本法或其他法律去調取的時候確實有必要讓這個相關的純害賠償的請求應該是包含在內我是針對第十條部分做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
31652.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
31652.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
柯總召這邊有沒有寶個意見?如果沒有,我們就... |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
31684.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
31699.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
剛才有補充就是說因為這個後面還有是否可以救濟的部分就是說如果當事人接到通知之後他認為說你是違法來調取那後面的救濟部分可能在相關的刑事訴訟法配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
31700.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
31714.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
要一併加上才會有施議因為目前的話只是知悉但他對於前面的這個命狀的決定他也沒有這個究竟的管道所以可能要請司法院重新整體的從旁來規劃才會比較完整以上補充報告司法院黃副秘書長您要不要再發言一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
31730.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
31740.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
主席、各位委員關於這個許可的救濟原來的條文並沒有這部分如果回到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
31742.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
31755.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
因為許可到後來才通知那通知今天假設說後來被通知的時候他認為原來違法你恐怕得依照其他的那個相關的這些規定去主張說國家機關的這些行為是不當的 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
31759.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
31779.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
因為這個是早就已經過了那個事後跟你通知嘛你也沒有來不及在許可的時候去抗告所以說事後你只能依照其他法律程序至於說會尋什麼其他法律程序的話可能要看看是不是因為他主張說原來處分違法那麼讓他受到什麼樣的損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
31780.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
31791.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
那依照相關的這些法律規範（實體法律規範去做主張（如果我目前初步的這個思考是如此（但是如果要進一步的去規劃（可能要再去做進一步研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
31793.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
31808.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
謝謝司法院補充那如果大家行政部門也已經解釋過了我想各黨團幹部如果會的完我們就這個我們把這五個字所刪掉就是針列十五條之六就是切 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
31810.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
31838.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
前六項規定,於依本法規定調取他人網路流量記錄之情形,亦準用之。我們針對這個。好,我們第六,我們就照協商內容。對不起,黃副院長請。因為剛才那個主席,因為剛才羅委員是說,他也接受這個準用齁,因為在十一條之一第四項其實完全都沒有經過法院。 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
31838.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
31840.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
31854.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
31879.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
對是是是是是那可能這個條文再把條文字可不可以訂得比較清楚一點是是Morgan你可以按麥克風說怎麼寫比較清楚可以請司法院表達意見啊呃司法院請木良我們先把這個條文研擬一下那提供給給那個答案參考好那我們休息五分鐘您研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
31888.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
31891.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
請司法院幕僚人稍微辛苦一下,我們這邊休息五分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
31964.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
31984.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
這樣,那個,對不起,我建議一下法務部跟司法院的兩位黃副秘書長跟黃長長,我們現在繼續先往十八條,然後請司法院的這些幕僚稍微辛苦一下,我們這樣可以節省時間,好不好?好,那個,鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌召委,我們就準備繼續了,十八條之一,好不好?好,那我們繼續開會,來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
31990.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
32018.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那針對第十八條之一,請鍾嘉賓召委,請發言好,那明月十八條之一我們是原來在所有的修正案當中並沒有包含在內那我在這邊是增加最後一項的規定就是說前三項之規定與違反第十一條之規定所取得的通訊使用者資料、通訊記錄或網路流量記錄準用之那這樣的內容已經被其他的相關修正內容所吸收了所以在這裡不堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
32042.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
32046.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
中加兵委員希望能夠跟各位黨團幹部希望能聽一下法務部針對十八條之一有沒有什麼對 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
32079.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
32102.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
那一面讀的時候我一面說明一下因為原通報法的十八條之一它的前三項都是在談完成後所應與規定予以銷毀就在取得的資料它都必須在銷毀那麼我們認為違法取得的也應該要準用之 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
32122.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
32146.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
麻煩請法務部黃次長謝謝謝謝中央兵委員提出來當然違法的部分我們也認為應該要銷毀可是這是一個判斷的過程所以說這個還是委有證據能力相關的規定來處理至於說永祿洋紀錄的銷毀的部分我們另外在前面的條文已經有所規範了所以這一項應該可以不用來釘釘緣緣 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
32148.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
32161.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
主要哪些條文有規範?在十一條之一跟十四條之一的最後一項授權的字法裡面我們都有規定銷毀的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
32173.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
32192.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
有啦!就最後一項啦!最後一項陣列啦!對對對!在協商的時候都有機會把它訂到那個授權執法裡面好!同意!好!謝謝!那我們第十八條之一,我們不許修正維持現行條文那...不好意思,司法院這個...您好... |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
32230.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
32248.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
好,各位黨團幹部,現在我們司法院還在草擬,我們先處理一下附帶決議現在有臺灣民眾黨黨團通報法附帶決議,請各位黨團幹部仔細聆聽臺灣民眾黨所提的附帶決議,通訊保障法監察法第四條之一的附帶決議,第十四條之一明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
32249.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
32260.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察之建置機關指定者有保存及協助執行調取網路流量記錄之義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
32263.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
32286.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
其為建制保存網路流量記錄之系統與維持保存及執行調取網路流量記錄功能正常作業所生之必要費用由建制機關負擔依據法務部評估建制三大電信業者及六個機關網路流量記錄保存與調取相關系統合計 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
32288.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
32292.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
需約一百零七億七千八百八十萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
32294.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
32317.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
為法務部未提供任何評估依據．無從判別經費使用之合理性．原請作成決議．法務部應於本法修正通過三個月之內．向立法院司法及法制委員會提出相關經費評估之專案報告．經審查同意後實則執行這是我們台灣民進黨所提的附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
32319.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
32337.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
各位黨團幹部要不要請法務部先說明黃國昌總召請說明因為當初在偵辦其實不僅僅是詐欺犯罪很多重要的犯罪甚至國安犯罪有需要建置網路流量紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
32339.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
32360.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
當然我們也經過了相當多時間的考慮然後徵詢各方的意見確認真的有這個必要性我們第一線的監禁只不過說我們當初在討論到第十四條之一的時候其實那個時候真的沒有意識到說初期建制要上百億所以後來再請你們補交一些資料過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
32367.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
32393.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
只不過說到上一次委員會協商為止我還是有提出說看可不可以有時間的話排讓法務部也好警政署也好那包括那個時候我們應該是花了一千八百萬請中華電信去做一個基本的類似像評估報告因為那是用標案做的花了一千八百萬做了一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
32394.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
32415.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
我那個報告看完了以後我必須要老實講我真的嚇一大跳因為這個只是初期建制還不包括每一年要花的錢那我們在通過了這個十四條之一的授權條款的時候做這件事情真的要比較仔細一點那這個是為什麼我們提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
32417.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
32441.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
這個修正動議那為什麼要經過同意要報告以後才可以執行最主要的理由之一那第二個最主要的理由之二因為後來我本來希望司法法制委員會能夠排這個專案報告讓大家有機會能夠好好的針對這個內容進行實質的討論那只不過說後來可能議程安排上面沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
32442.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
32469.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
排入這樣子的一個專案報告那因為我不太確定接下來到底是法務部還是警政署這邊會主責這個整個系統的建構但我要特別提醒注意的一件事情這件事情很重要我要特別提醒注意的一件事情是中華電信當初得標一千八百萬所提的那個評估報告我看完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
32470.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
32482.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
我看完了以後發現他那個評估報告裡面在計價的時候他用的你們要去擷取網路流量記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
32484.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
32513.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
中華電信的解決方案是採用加拿大的Standby公司它報告裡面寫得很清楚你們去看報告覺得看得到那個加拿大的Standby公司在國際社會上面是惡名昭彰它已經被美國列為制裁的公司為什麼列為制裁的公司因為它違反美國國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
32514.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
32530.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
他為什麼違反美國國家安全?因為他協助一些極權政府,牽制網路上面的行為,所以他把他列入了屍體的清單。這個是在2024年,也是今年二月所發生的事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
32531.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
32546.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
而且他之前銷售網路監控設備及軟體給白俄羅斯等極權國家用來監控人民所以我那時候看完那個報告然後去查那家公司他所用的這個軟體出現了這樣子的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
32551.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
32572.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
當然這只是提醒我們我們未來在使用這個網路流量紀錄的時候你們到底是去跟什麼公司買什麼軟體這件事情很重要因為如果真的按照中華電信提供給你們那個報告用那個Sanitify公司的話到時候一搞下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
32573.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
32600.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
可能我們自己檢警這邊實際辦案的需要之外會引發很多不必要大家擔心的討論跟衝擊因為你挑錯了公司那個公司在國際社會上面曾經幹過這樣的事情還被美國政府列為一個實體的清單這是一個很嚴重的事情那甚至當初中華電信怎麼提那個報告給你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
32601.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
32618.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
我有一點不確定,因為它裡面其中針對網路流量紀錄,它講的三個軟體有一個叫Digital Witness,那個Digital Witness的這個軟體Stand-by公司目前它已經停產了 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
32619.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
32645.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
那這個公司因為被美國政府制裁現在目前處於一個非常糟糕的狀態所以我有一點不太確定你們當初那個標案中華電信到底是怎麼執行的好 那有鑒於此有鑒於此因為我們立法通過讓你們去買東西去建置這個網路流量紀錄那我們所合作的電信業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
32646.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
32661.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
三大變性業者他們在建構這個網路流量紀錄的時候如果去用到我因為這不是我說他們會用他們自己的報告裡面在評估這個計畫的時候跟你們報的價就是要去買這家公司的這個軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
32662.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
32676.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
來做網路流量紀錄如果到時候真的是這個樣子的話我覺得一定會引起軒然大波所以有必要善意的事前先跟你們做提議但這個例子也讓我們知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
32678.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
32706.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
到時候這個東西在建制的時候你們所花的這個第一個是不是真的要上百億我老實講我看那個經費評估報告可以討論的事情還蠻多的但沒有關係我不希望因為這個事情而阻礙了這個法律授權的規定但我們授權歸授權你們真的要下去搞的時候我覺得立法院要比較負責任的方式還是要再進行一次審查所以提出這樣子的附帶決議以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
32709.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
32711.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
我仔細聆聽黃偉民的說法,他是對這個案子也 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
32720.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
32734.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
好像蠻有研究的,也看為什麼能夠會拿到這個評論報告我就不知道但是我請教一下法務部,這法案通過以後是不是要有預算採購?這個應該是要依照法的評理預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
32741.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
32758.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
至於採購法,我認為三個月內叫立法院先來做一個採購個案的評估,同時才可以這樣我們有進入個案的嫌疑我是照政府的採購法與執行法處理,到時候總會送來立法院審議,應該是這樣才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
32762.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
32787.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
這才開大門走大路啊那現在你現在那一家可以,那一家不可以,廠商等一下捐錢的捐錢一大堆啊,真假很難有我是覺得這樣有機會又要採購不好,我們沒有法院不應該注意這個事情照預算法採購法已經好了預算總是要審嘛,哪有先審我從來沒有看過一個案子先能先先搞這一套再來才能夠採購才能配預算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
32790.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
32814.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
這是把這個一間成功地選了謝謝柯建民總召的發言現在請鍾嘉斌召委請發言好 謝謝喔那麼我想對本案非常關注的委員都會希望去理解所謂的網路流量記錄的調取跟保存先有保存才能調取那保存的話呢三大業者要配合建制那目前我所知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
32815.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
32843.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
對於真正的使用機關大概是來自於法務部調查局跟內政部警政署的刑事警察局因為真正在第一線做犯罪偵訪的他們才知道他們流量紀錄需要到什麼程度需要能夠在多少的時間內提供多少量的資訊才能滿足他們犯罪偵訪之所需所以我對於這樣的一個附帶決議我是建議一個思考第一個就是說是不是應該在上面的明白要求法務部應該會同 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
32845.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
32864.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
內政部警政署、刑事警察局及法務部調查局去做這些需求的評估那這個需求的評估至於要幾個月去完成的評估再來第二個其實經費目前根據委託中華電信那個標案一千五百萬、一千八百萬的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
32864.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
32891.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
所做出來的整體的一百零七億等等這個其實還是在一個相當一個概括的範圍也就是說這樣的一個預算需求在未來執行分年分期在每個階段可以滿足犯罪偵防機關它什麼樣的一個需求它不是一下子一夕之間就達成的就像我們過去還在語音通訊的時候那麼建置這些監聽的資料其實也是在透過機房 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
32892.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
32920.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
拉線慢慢慢慢建立起來．慢慢的普及到很多的門號所以我建議法務部這邊是不是給予法務部充足的時間然後當然中華電信那一份評估報告其實我還是要強調一次應該合理推論未來不會是以那一份的報告來作為建制整個計畫的唯一依據應該還是要反向去推估使用機關的需求後再去尋采購法、去密商來建制 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
32920.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
32948.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
那至於預算的編列多少也未必就是一百零七億我想這個數值在當時都是一個初步的規劃所以是認同說法務部應該會同這兩個機關那麼在一定的期間內將這個相關的經費評估後面還是要其實說到預期效用也要包含在內因為在建制的過程當中可以達到什麼樣的效用最好能夠在這樣的建制過程也理解預算花下去之後能達到什麼樣的效果一併可以在裡面予以說明那麼請法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
32949.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
32971.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
待會是不是可以做一個回應我們麻煩再請法務部謝謝黃次長謝謝主席那跟各位說明也謝謝黃國昌總召的提醒那我想這個都是我們未來在建制跟執行政府的經費應該要注意的事情那當然誠如這個課長所講 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
32972.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
32992.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
未來是要選預算程序跟採購程序來做那所以在這邊提出一點說明就是說未來這個實際執行的機關在行政院內部已經做過決定會有這個內政部警政署跟法務調查局分別去編列預算那基礎的建設比較大比的 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
32993.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
33015.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
會是在內政部請證書那法務調局主要是做我們在做資料分析的部分是比較小筆的那所以是不是可以建請第一個這個時程可能要有兩個執行單位來說明大概什麼時程是比較適合第二個因為這畢竟職業評估就像我們做了這個評估報告它也未必會是未來實際執行採購的一個唯一的依據所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
33019.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
33044.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
第一個,這個報告到底要寫到什麼程度才不會有那個問題這是第一點第二個,是不是可以直接列明由這兩個相關單位去提出報告因為由我們來統整其實因為我們只是法定的主管機關實際執行這些技術性的事項並非本部的職責所以說是不是可以請這個尤其是跨部會是不是可以請兩個單位分別來向立法院提出就可以了我不同意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
33050.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
33068.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
這個採購何其多啊?就要採購法嘛,他們應該開什麼Spec,他們自己的單位會弄出來嘛。然後行政司法編寫一段進來,然後有一個採購案才先向立法院先報告。這個很奇怪啊,這個個案先進入個案的報告,還要我們同意才可以啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
33069.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
33071.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
我們提的內容請看是經費評估的專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
33092.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
33093.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
哪有涉及到採購? |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
33122.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
33150.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
因為今年沒預算了嘛沒有什麼預算審查的程序了嘛你們今年不會做這件事情所有的事情都從明年才開始做的話那我沒意見我們就按照從明年的預算開始編開始做審查我為什麼提這個案子是因為如果是你們現在就要做的話我們要很清楚的讓大家知道這個會花上百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
33152.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
33171.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
這個會花上百億至於說你們的預算編出來我們認為合理我們預算過了以後當然是你們按照政府採購程序去做採購嘛這裡完全沒有牽涉到有關於政府採購標案的問題我上面寫的是什麼是 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
33172.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
33200.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
相關經費評估就是你要多少錢因為我現在看到要上百億我現在看到要上百億老實說啦我有點驚訝我有點驚訝因為這個授權條款下去就授權了但我後來也再去請教你們相關的部會是不是真的有這個需要你們一直說辦案這個很重要有需要我問你們經費怎麼估的 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
33202.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
33225.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
開了一千八百萬的標案讓中華電信去做中華電信標案的成果報告是公開的資訊我看完了成果報告大概二、三十頁的成果報告我看了那二、三十頁的成果報告以後我心裡就很納悶為什麼這二、三十頁的成果報告竟然要一千八百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
33226.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
33251.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
因為我看到一份報告二、三十頁是一千八百萬我嚇一大跳我想說這到底是怎麼回事他們後來跟我講過說還牽涉到什麼一個模組還有軟體就是好像是有軟體也有硬體實際下面去做測試然後把那個測試的結果用那個報告呈現出來所以才會花一千八百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
33252.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
33267.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
去做這件事當你們跟我解釋說有軟體有硬體去做測試做那個報告出來我看到中華電信上面所估價的所估價所使用的軟體那個時候我就覺得很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
33268.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
33293.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
真的要上百億嗎?所以我後來才去看中華電信你們所估價的那個軟體、那個公司那個公司它的背景一點都不難查各位你們現在把手機拿出來Google、Standify今年我剛剛所講的那些內容全部都跑出來了我才會很驚訝提醒你們要跟中華電信講 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
33295.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
33310.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
他們怎麼會挑那個公司的軟體來做這件事情在測試階段給你們的報告他寫就是這樣寫完全是用這個來當作估價的基準所以我再說明一次第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
33312.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
33335.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
你們如果今年完全沒有要做這件事情要等到明年的預算才開始編那沒有關係等到我們要審明年預算的時候我一樣會請你們提出這個評估報告所以我不管你是編五十億、八十億還是一百億但你如果今年就要開始做的話這件事情就有必要要進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
33337.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
33361.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
跟主席報告,剛才我跟警務組確認,確實今年不會執行,明年才會執行,先讓大家知道沒有,不管哪一年執行,這法院通過以後,依據法律可以憑追加預算的,不一定要年度預算,可以憑追加預算所以依法律就是如此,等一下我把它講完好不好?你們一直講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
33366.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
33376.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
這很關鍵啦!立法院對於那個採購案要去做、要來報告專案、報告審查統一後才可以去哪一個案子有這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
33377.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
33394.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
只要依法執行就可以即便我們通過以後他可以追加一算、辦理追加一算任何法律都是如此他明年才在明年才辦是一回事哪一回事到都是要照採購法以及依法去處理就好沒有一個案子可以說我們那個有採購我們政府採購多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
33397.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
33424.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
然後先立法院來審查以後．評估報告審查以後．總務以後才可以沒有這回事所以這個我絕對反對的這依法執行就可以一採購法一算法執行假如要追加一算你就幫你追加一算嘛這本來就是如此嘛謝謝柯總召那黃總召我拿一家公司可以拿一家公司不可以你們自己要負責的阿那如果您同意沒有沒有沒有我齁這樣講好了我再說一次最後一句話相關經費評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
33426.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
33427.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
根本就沒有到採購階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
33429.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
33454.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
你要花多少錢你先聽我說完嘛你們如果現在公開的表明不會在今年不會在今年去處理這一件事情不會用今年已經過的去處理這件事情你們要等到明年按照預算的程序來處理那我就沒意見就不用做這樣子的附帶就不用做這樣子的附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
33459.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
33484.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
我的意思是說不管今年或明年都是今年假如要辦最佳預算本來法院通過以後他必須辦最佳預算就必須辦最佳預算根本沒有和今年明年有關係嘛都是要經過立法院審查的嘛哪有他經費評估方案報告我們要同意以後才可以去搞哪一個案是如此我對這個案子是完全反對的依法實行就可以什麼和今年明年都一樣的今年要最佳預算就辦最佳預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
33486.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
33504.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
也要送進來的不是今年你馬上讓最佳預算機今年要送進來也是要審查他明天審查這個沒有關係今年明年沒有關係要照預算法查過來就可以我真的很堅持以後可以立法院今天要搞這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
33509.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
33523.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
謝謝黃總召的說明其實因為如果沒有細看文字以剛剛的說明來講我們是認為有必要由執行機關包括刑事警察局跟防護調查局要對他們的需求做一個建制計畫的說明但是這個條文的附帶決議因為剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
33525.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
33529.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
黃總幹事說今年不執行因為未來會在預算執行程序預算編列程序的審查過程自然的會表達那麼因為這個副代覺得一個問題是再說最後一句金審查同意後使得執行會不會誤以為我們在立法同時就針對一個預算案去要求必須提出對採購部分的說明後才能執行該項預算這樣的認知恐怕會造成一個誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
33550.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
33567.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
所以原來當心的是說最後那幾個字經審查同又使得知行可能是引起誤會的主要原因我這裡先說序名至於說相關經費評估雖然目前我們黃總統說的如果今年不執行他這個案子就不需要處理了但是我還是要覺得表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
33568.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
33590.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
如果這個相關機會評估能夠以中性的方式建制計畫之專案報告未來在事務法制委員會能夠有機會來安排讓他們來做一個建制計畫專案報告未嘗不是意見我們對於這個流量紀錄未來如何使用以及在未來要編列預算要怎麼樣去支出的時候先有個瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
33591.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
33618.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
幫助民意機關未來審議預算的時候有個瞭解這倒不是個壞事啦所以我是說兩點這個負債決的部分經審查後同意使得執行這個恐怕會遭致誤會不應該有這樣的一個文字描述第二個相關經費評估其實重點是在於整個建制計畫是不是滿足使用機關的需求這是我們委員會會關心的那當然既然這是今年不會執行黃董阿倫會說那如果不執行那負債決就不予討論那我們也尊重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
33621.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
33635.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
你 你在講什麼話 聽不懂韓國昌這個案子是 這個案子經費預算要來做判 包括同意柴克兵編列的這案今年明年有什麼關係他要追加預算就要行預算法來的嘛成功法來的嘛 你就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
33638.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
33644.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
這個案子都應該處理吧?我沒講過不處理,你不要急你還在講今年明年,都是一樣的嘛對,沒問題你先把好,各位黨團幹部 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
33655.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
33681.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
非常感謝大家,謝謝行政官員,不好意思我們每次實在會有些激烈的,之後會有個會有美麗的花朵,好不好那剛剛黃國昌總召已經講完,如果行政單位今年不去進行採購的話明年度,那明年度審查預算再來,所以我們這個負債決議我們就不處理,好不好徵求各位黨團同意,好,不處理,好,謝謝那請問司法院,剛才您訂那個,好好好,謝謝各位黨團幹部 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
33686.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
33689.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
關於《通訊保障及監察法》第十五條第七項 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
33695.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
33716.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
前六項規定於依本法規定調取他人網路流量記錄之情形亦准用之但實施第十一條之一、第四項調取網路流量記錄之情形應由執行機關通知各位請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
33717.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
33741.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
有沒有意見?那我們十九條就照協商內容通過好不好?那我看我們再休息五分鐘吧先宣讀完畢我們休息五分鐘大家喘一口氣柯總召、中委員請專心聽一下好不好?協商結論好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
33742.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
33747.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
立法院黨團協商結論時間一百三年七月十一日星期四下午兩點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
33749.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
33774.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
地理院議長三樓會議室（協商主題並案協商（一、司法及法制委員會並案審查行政院行情審議及臺灣民眾黨黨團凝聚、通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正案等兩案（二、林一景二十一人、二十一位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案（三、羅志強等十六位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法第十五條及第十九條條文修正草案（ |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
33774.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
33795.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
草案（四、鍾家斌等十八位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法第三條之一、第十一條之一及第十八條之一條文修正草案（五、蔡易瑜等十八位委員凝聚、通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案（四、協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
33797.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
33816.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
一、第五條、第六條、第十一條之一、第十五條、第十九條及第三十一條我們居照軍造協商內容通過、詳如附件二、第十八條之一不予修正維持現行條文三、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過四、各黨團同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
33817.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
33843.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
中嘉賓等十八位委員（凝聚通訊保障監察法第三條之一（第十一條之一及第十八條之一條文修正草案（及蔡易瑜等十八位委員（凝聚通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等二案（從委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案並案（在本次協商會議處理如果大家沒有意見（那就請大家通通開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
33845.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
33851.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
我們準備簽署,簽署完畢我們休息五分鐘五分鐘之後我們再審查下面案 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
34482.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
34508.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝我們現在繼續開會接下來介紹我們列席的閣議員及官員首先歡迎國家通訊傳播委員會的陳主任委員黃主任秘書歡迎再來權敘部的藍副司長歡迎內政部的簡世察歡迎教育部人事處的廖專門委員歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
34511.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
34530.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
教育部高等教育師的郭專門委員 歡迎文化部影視及流行音樂發展的陳專門委員 歡迎行政院人事行政總處主編人力處曾專門委員 歡迎培訓考用處賴專門委員 歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
34540.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
34566.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
來向各位黨團幹部報告我們現在我們現在進行國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案本案司法及法治交通兩委會並案審查傅坤祺等三、三位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
34568.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
34587.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
以及傅昆吉等四十一位委員（及洪孟凱等二十五位委員（及翁曉琳等十八位委員提案（審查情形（審查會於一百一三年五月一日審查完略（審查結果（第四條、第八條及第十條保留（ |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
34589.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
34607.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
另外,院會將賴世寶等二十四位委員提案（李燕秀等二十三位委員提案近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商我們現在協商情形一、國民黨黨團於六月十四日召集協商由吳宗憲召集委員主持二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
34607.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
34633.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
各黨團代表經充分討論．仍然無法取得共識．所以本日協商審查會保留條文第四條．第八條及第十條．以及進覆二讀提案需要協商的條文第五條．第七條、共計五條．請提案國民黨黨團先發言．接下來請陳主任委員請準備好,請好,謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
34636.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
34657.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
我們現在針對第四條有關於我們委員的提名辦法我想我們現在有一個修正動議那這個修正動議我們把這第四條就是把那個得連任的規定我們現在已經只有得連任一次只能連任一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
34658.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
34679.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
其餘的我們都是依照原來的我們現行的條文另外就是說對於這個如果委員出缺的話或者人數未達足而實或者是因為立法院不同意人數未達足而實那行政院院長因爲三個月補足提名我們做這樣的一個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
34680.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
34709.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
所以我們已經就是對於這個原來我們所這個提案的相關的版本我們都已經在這一次做很大幅的修正那我想也請這個不管是民進黨的委員或者這個民眾黨的委員都能夠支持我們這一次的就第四條的一個修正好 謝謝謝謝我們林委員的發言接下來我們請NCC陳主委請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
34711.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
34723.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
主席、各位委員、大家晚安這邊說明一下關於這個第四條的修正動議的部分來講的話第一個就是說關於修正說得連任一次這個部分來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
34726.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
34748.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
34752.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
34773.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
當過委員的人會被再提名為所謂的主委或是副主委那我覺得這個不得在任這個可能是建議不要加進去的因為從尋找人才的角度來講反而曾經當過本會委員他去當過在任委員或在任主委或副主委反而是比較有經驗所以我是建議說這個在任這個部分是建議不要列進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
34774.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
34796.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
另外一個關於這個三個月補足這個是院長的提名權不過這裡修正都有一個很重要的一點是說他把我們原來現行的條文的第四條的第五項關於過度條款那個部分把它完全拿掉那我們有一個擔憂是這樣子就是說我們稱之為過度條款當然有委員認為說什麼萬年條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
34800.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
34825.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
但是如果依照目前這個修正說行政院院長必須在三個院院補足提名的話這種所謂的德言任這種情況不會一直繼續下去反而這個德言任這個條款應該留著避免這個機關會產生沒有辦法運作的現象比如說以我們現在這一屆委員來講的話如果把德言任這個拿掉的話我們本來七個委員就剩下三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
34826.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
34849.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
那我們法定我們要運作最低的法定的緣額就是四名委員嘛那你現在我們只是三個變成NCC沒有辦法去運作那反而把這個所謂的嚴任條款、過渡條款留著讓大院在審查委員的時間比較充裕因為大院現在在立法院職權席次法裡面來講的話你們要舉辦公聽會或相關的聽證會裡面審查期間還有一定的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
34854.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
34866.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
那這樣的話才不會出現這個空窗期是所以說介意這個在修正動議這個部分來講原來我們本會第四條裡面第五項的這種所謂的過渡條款還是繼續保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
34867.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
34879.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
何況根據這個修正動議來講的話那行政院長他必須在三個月再補足的話這個應該不會所謂的這種過渡期限不會太長將對整個機關來講的話正常運作對大會來講的話你們在審查的期間上比較有一個餘裕比較不會出現所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
34886.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
34887.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
三、研 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
34919.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
34944.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
好 謝謝院長 謝謝大家大家辛苦了那現在我們看到的是國民黨的修正動議那當然首先也肯定我們在委員會的階段還有在黨團協商的階段一直認為期期以為不可的違反這個憲法613釋字的有關於政黨比例來推派NCC委員的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
34944.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
34967.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
今天終於國民黨委員們也知道不應當再站在憲法的對立面再一次提出一個會違憲的版本這個部分今天去刪除的這個是予以肯定但是我想剛剛回到第一項的部分連任一次不得再任原來的條文就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
34968.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
34968.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
34979.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
35007.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
強迫他不能再任的這個規定因為就我們在政治事務或是我們是國會議員那能夠在某一個專業領域裡頭長期累積他對於事務的專業尤其NCC是完全非常著重專業的一個領域那能夠有這樣子的服務的經歷然後他本身專業的養成以及經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
35009.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
35036.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
這個行政院提名．然後立法院同意．上任的NCC委員．我認為這都是國家重要的人才．所以在這個領域當中．他累積了他的專業．他貢獻了他的才華．然後在這裡．我認為為什麼會突然有一個限制．這個任期的限制．我認為這不利於優秀人才持續在該專業領域貢獻國家．我要強調NCC的委員不好找啊． |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
35037.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
35058.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
不容易去找到這方面．而且可以獲得行政部門的提名．立法委員的同意這個門檻這樣子的人才的稀有性都非常的珍貴但是有這樣子的產出的人選之後卻在法條上規定他只能夠連任一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
35060.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
35084.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
這完全不合理就像刑 就是像我們立法委員就規定你只可以連任一次 這很怪而且更重要的是不能再任也就是他未來如果就算離開一段時間再回任好像不行我真的不曉得這樣的制度設計是原因什麼樣子的制度設計臺灣有這樣子的其他的獨立機關或者是有其他的什麼樣的公署服務它基於哪些理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
35085.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
35108.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
必須這樣被限制那如果看到國民黨在第一項的條文說明欄是說這樣子的話有這個制度設計才能夠去防止任何的個人在政府中長期掌握權力避免權力集中造成濫用及腐敗所以連任一次不得再任我覺得好怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
35109.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
35133.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
我剛剛是非常正面的在思考國家珍貴的人才而且是非常珍書的人才在這個專業領域可以貢獻國家可是在野黨的條文是又防弊大於心力去阻卻了專業的人才我要強調他是行政部門提名立法院行使同意權的這是double的認可這個人的專業跟是任與否 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
35134.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
35150.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
所以如果是一個不適任的人他在同意權的部分就不可能通過嘛如果你認為一個人的提名他本身是有極貪腐於一身行政部門也不可能提名他立法部門基於這個對不對也不可能讓他同意上任所以我覺得這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
35151.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
35175.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
很好奇為什麼有這樣子的設計然後呢我也非常同意雖然這個最後面有這個行政院院長三個月來補足提名的這個第一、二、三、四、第四項但我也同意基於正因為有這樣子的這個我聽得沒有很清楚你們同意有這個三個月補足嗎那也因為這樣被拿掉的第五項那個過渡條款就更應當留下來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
35179.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
35202.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
因為你不會有人擔心說在這個空窗沒有辦法完成任命或者是沒有辦法完成同一群人的行使的那過程拉得很長然後原來的藉其的委員繼續續任在那裡正因為如此假設有設一個三個月補足的提名的這個前提的話那原來的第五項更應當留著而且留著的它不是為了保有某一個人繼續在那裡什麼什麼繼續擁有權利我認為那是服務那是專業人才在服務國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
35209.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
35226.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
所以那個條款更應當留著而且才能夠避免NCC的日常的尤其關於民生的商用的業務能夠持續的來進行穩健的來推進所以這是我的意見但是這個條文我記得當初在討論好像還有民眾黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
35227.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
35229.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
我看法和吳志堯委員差不多不得在任我現在講市法院院長許仲敬是不是在任 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
35257.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
35279.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
現在是嘛對不對那先是首長選舉他當了兩任以後他隔一屆他再來選也可以總統也可以啦總統連任兩次嘛他隔一屆又以後再跳出來選舉也是可以的來除了馬英九或是陳水扁都可以所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
35280.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
35295.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
民進黨團提議的理事長也是用選舉的吧兩任以後再轉到監事再回來他是有些規範這個同意權行使的以及有選舉的都要等同來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
35297.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
35322.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
我現在就很清楚的嘛是不是啊司法院院長就是在任的嘛這是國家人才而且連總統都可以在任的啊現在縣市長都可以的嘛所以不要用負面的說這個造成腐敗造成腐敗這種思維可能有點差距啊你來思考一下至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
35323.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
35344.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
有關於行政院長三個月補足,就來補從原來的,就是說新的沒有的時候就去做,但是你有時間壓力,三個月再補嘛,這個剛好可以銜接這種的機制嘛但是對於政治國民黨沒有用這種比喻,我們是值得肯定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
35346.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
35351.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
謝謝柯建民總召的發言接下來我們請那個臺灣民眾黨黨團還沒有發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
35354.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
35378.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
兩黨都已經發言過了請黃國昌總召請曾主委再準備說明第一個部分我們台灣民進黨黨團我們在委員會的時候所提出的在修正動議我們本來就不贊成用政黨比例的方式來推荐信息委員這個是我們從第一天就開始堅持這樣子的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
35379.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
35404.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
在審查的階段我們事實上是希望能夠有引進像公視那樣的模式但是沒有那麼高的表決門檻然後讓整個提名的作業所有的候選人都還是由行政院院長提名他不會有在大法官解釋裡面實質徹底剝奪行政院院長提名權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
35406.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
35421.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
希望藉由一個比較嚴謹的審查程序,最後再讓行政院院長把通過的名單送到立法院來進行審查。經過這樣一個比較慎重的審查程序,我們覺得立法院在考慮NCC委員任選的時候,因為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
35431.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
35449.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
從NCC成立、設立到現在風風雨雨不管是哪一個政黨執政都會出現這樣的狀況那目前我相信就是說社會上面對NCC這個組織大家也會有非常多的意見當然每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
35449.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
35468.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
委員有各自的看法但社會上面的確也有一定的評價這是第一件事情那第二個事情是針對有關於認滿的時候可以再繼續演這樣子的事情事實上真的是從NCC |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
35470.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
35498.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
組織法才開始了我想主委也承認了這樣子的事情那後來到公平交易法事實上是到公平交易委員會的組織法是到比較後期的時候才學NCC那樣子的方式在任何的機關當中都會有都會有提名空缺這樣子的問題但沒有一個組織沒有一個組織是像NCC這樣子是像NCC這樣子就是時間到了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
35499.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
35522.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
如果沒有新的人出來的話就繼續延任就繼續延任下去所以對於那種自動延任的條款這件事情是我們的底線就變成了這真的是一個很奇怪的制度設計在其他所有的機關當中除了仿效 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
35523.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
35551.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
通傳會組織法的公平交易委員會以外沒有其他任何一個機關沒有其他任何一個機關是採取這樣子的一個立法的模式所以針對第四條的部分針對第四條的部分我們願意採取比較開放的討論態度但是對於任期滿了以後可以自動再延任的這件事情是我們會比較堅持的底線 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
35554.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
35581.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召的發言接下來國民黨團是不是要 黨團要不要發言請傅坤吉總召我想我們陳主委戰功彪炳所以我想這個已經是一個普羅的一個共識我想當然這個柯總召對我們這個條文還是有不同高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
35582.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
35610.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
不過你剛剛講得很好做得很好兩任以後隔一任可以再回來所以蔡英文總統二零二八還要再選我們也是很鼓勵當然我們也很歡迎就是說還是要讓社會的人才都有表演有能夠上舞台的機會所以為什麼說得連任一次基本上幾乎所有的用選舉產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
35612.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
35637.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
前市長、鄉鎮長、總統幾乎這種首長都是得連任一次所以這個是一個普羅的共識至於說現在能不能產生新的委員的問題這就是朝野大家的一個怎麼樣來面對、怎麼樣和諧、怎麼樣溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
35642.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
35664.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
既然是人才,大家一起來推舉嘛都可以協商嘛,今天陳水扁總統時代都是大家在商量都一起推舉的嘛過去也是這樣嘛我想這個彼此大家尊重嘛沒有說非誰不可我覺得還是要廣納各界的意見啦這樣真的讓很多人才能夠為國家服務,這是我們的想法好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
35666.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
35693.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
謝謝傅昆吉總召,接下來我們請陳主委說明之後等一下,我再請問一下,傅總召你那個不得載任還在留著嗎?不得載任,可不可載任?可以載任嗎?不得載任什麼?你剛才半天講什麼?沒有沒有,我沒聽懂你的意思對啊,可不可載任? |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
35701.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
35726.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
那個衝突性就很大了啦在所有法界大家清德偉有衝突性很大那我講先是所長嘛我總也是可以再任啊對啊成績要夠好啊成績要夠好啊這個可不可以我們先講清楚啊好謝謝了 成績要夠好啊基本上吼基本上啦好不好我們立法是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
35727.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
35730.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
35745.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
35763.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
發言完畢之後你已經聽了一輪委員發言再下來就是請翁曉琳委員先舉手再來是鍾嘉斌委員先舉手翁曉琳委員準備發言再來是翁曉琳委員準備發言再來是吳世耀委員準備發言再來是侯孟凱委員準備發言請陳主委好 謝謝 剛剛各位有沒有報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
35763.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
35788.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
本會曾經就有那個委員在任的潛力就是我們十四號主委他是第一任的我們本會NCC的副主委當時的九位委員之一後來在我記得是在滿久總統任期這邊他後面又被提名為主任委員所以我們本會其實是有在任的潛力那因為這個當時我所記得因為我們十組委會被再提名在任就是因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
35789.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
35803.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
根據我們NCC的業務是相當的熟悉（而且很快的就可以進入狀況（所以在那邊沒有像各位所提的政治上的考量（因為有些還是有專業性考量的問題存在（跟各位報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
35804.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
35828.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
二、關於所謂的連任一次或是說認滿和連任沒有次數限制﹖其實我們在其他兩個相關的獨立機關有不一樣公平會這就跟我們一樣就是認滿得連任﹖它沒有次數的限制那中選會它認滿﹖它是得連任一次這個是兩個獨立機關跟我們一樣﹖所以它設計上不太相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
35830.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
35853.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
為什麼原因我個人並沒有了解當時的立法的過程不過從這兩個獨立機關的主心來看中選會應該是比較政治性的因為它是選務的問題公平法院跟我們一樣它是屬於競爭管制它比較專業性的考量所以這個就是看大院的決定說這個是不是要認一次與否或者可不可以在之後限制連任一次的問題而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
35855.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
35878.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
另外一個關於過度條款的部分也跟黃總召和各位說明一下本會是合一制機關跟其他部會不一樣其他部會我一個手掌我就可以做行政處分沒問題但是本會合一制機關我們七位委員裡面來講至少要有四位委員才有辦法組成合法的委員會才有辦法做成行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
35878.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
35904.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
而且我們的組織法裡面有一些重要的行政組織都必須要經過委員會的討論決定才可以這也是當時為什麼會設計這個所謂的過渡條款那其實黃總裁給我們指教以後我們回去查其實當時的修法其實立法理由就只有黨團協商沒有其他的那個理由存在所以我個人的推測是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
35905.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
35905.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
二、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
35935.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
35954.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
關於行政院院長這三個院內（因為組織法提名權是行政院院長的權利（這個不是我們的權利（所以這個部分來講的話（我們只能說競表對委員的意見（的提議（競表尊重那以上補充到這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
35956.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
35983.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
黃竹敏也要補充嗎?我請你們行政機關,請我後面有四位委員要發言,請我稍微述事以情,因為我其實是從早上做到現在大家就可以發現其實NCC幾乎因為通訊傳播是在我們生活當中已經是不可或缺的一環了所以這可能還真的不只是單純的就是說我們一些iPhone或什麼的其實單是今天早上我們通過那個打詐條例裡面的那個黑媒體裡面所涉及到的那個高風險事業的公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
35984.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
36010.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
那個公告就是委員會保留事項,假設委員會領到主責的話,那個公告就沒有辦法辦理,這個是補充我補充一分鐘就好了所以剛才那個修正動議裡面有說那個行政院要三個月內補足這個提名,所以我們剛才提說因為就是因為有這樣的設計,所以那個過渡條件應該留著,這個空窗期才不會太長,而且也是避免這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
36010.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
36036.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
行政的運作陷入癱瘓以上補充謝謝謝謝陳主委發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言好 謝謝我想剛剛聆聽了各黨團的意見還有我們NCC主管機關的意見我想首先闡明目前在我們國家的機關設置當中有三個獨立機關中選會、NCC跟公平會 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
36037.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
36064.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
那必須依照憲法必須超出坦白獨立行使職權的有包括考試院、法官跟監察院那因此我們可以來細細考究這幾個包括國家最高機關跟這些獨立機關他們之間的設計上有很大的相關性首先我們先看到我先問一個這個大家可以思考一下先回到這個現實的修正動議當中如果按照文藝解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
36065.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
36082.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
任期四年,任滿得連任一次,並不得再任。從後面來限制前面,亦只是任滿連任一次者才不能再任,如果按照文議解釋。但是任滿沒有連任的人,他就不受不得再任的限制。如果嚴格來講,我要詢問修正動議他的原意, |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
36087.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
36116.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
是說不希望你連續做八年因為一任四年嘛你如果連續做八年了你就以後不能再來做了但是你做了四年建段後你可以再做四年建段後再做四年也就是說不得再任是針對連任一次的那八年的人那如果他的修法的原意是這樣的話那我認為或許不無有道理怎麼說呢因為我們注意到我們目前啊任期半半交錯的有大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
36117.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
36129.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
有公平教育委員會．有NCC委員．那麼人數都不多公平教育委員七門．NCC七名．大法官十五名那麼大法官很抱歉我這邊可以稍微說一下因為當年的大法官改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
36131.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
36146.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
不能連任,但是任期半半交錯呢是在當年我在擔任第三屆國大代表的時候我們有參與到那時候將司法院大法官的人數改成任期半半交錯也就是說有兩批,有七人團跟八人團 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
36147.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
36165.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
其中的八人團只做四年,七人團先做八年之後就半半交錯,每四年就換一半目前NCG的設置也是這樣,它分成三人團跟四人團然後它是半半交錯的設計,每兩年就有一半到任 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
36165.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
36189.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
那麼為什麼要做半漫交錯呢?就是為了經驗傳承所以類似這樣的獨立機關他們非常重視的就是經驗傳承總不能你一次七個人通通都是新人所以如果說修正動力它的認滿得連任一次並不得再任是限制認滿連任的八年者不得再任但是如果只認四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
36195.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
36209.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
這其實也蠻符合獨立機關它的任期慢慢交錯的一個經驗傳承的精神所以我是覺得這個文藝設計上似乎有表達反映出獨立機關的需求但是我覺得比較可惜的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
36210.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
36234.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
因為我們看到公平交友委員會跟我們的NCC它不是寫超出黨派之上獨立薪酬之權它是任一黨籍不得超過一半這是兩種的思維方式一個是要求他們完全獨立不得有黨派一個是任一黨派不得有一半的影響力那兩種方式都有一定的抑制黨派操控獨立機關的意涵那哪一種設計比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
36236.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
36256.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
考試院、監察院、大法官必須超出黨外之上那麼NCC跟國民教育委員會任意黨籍不得超二分之一那可能都會達到同樣的效果那這一點是沒有錯但是我們看到了國民教育委員會裡面它有一個叫做缺位的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
36257.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
36268.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
36273.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
36289.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
行政院長因於委員任滿前三個月前依第一項程序提名新任委員委員出缺時這個委員出缺是指不是按照任期屆滿的方式在委員任期間出缺繼任委員之任期至原任任期屆滿為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
36291.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
36305.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
這個設計很重要這個設計就確保半半交錯字不會被打亂目前我們大法官的半半交錯字為什麼會被打亂現在不是兩批現在是三批今年十月份有七位任滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
36306.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
36332.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
另外的八位他在未來的四年分兩次屆滿為什麼會造成這個結果?就是當年在補提名大法官的時候並沒有要求補的大法官、補提名的大法官他補到原屆滿任期為止譬如說有一個大法官做了六年出缺、辭職了新補的大法官應該只做兩年但是我們當時因為解釋的關係造成補提名的大法官一樣做八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
36333.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
36355.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
所以造成的結果就是目前大法官的任期的半半交錯是被打壞了那如果說NCC我們真的要回歸到制度上去保障他的獨立行使之權又能夠任期交錯又能夠經驗傳承那麼可能應該是在我們的修正動議當中比照我們公平交易委員會如果是委員出缺時 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
36357.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
36379.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
補聽名委員應至原委員任期屆滿為止那這個時候他補屆滿為止按照這個意思他如果沒有連任他空了四年四年後他可以再任那再任的話他就不會有持續的影響力每一個委員如果只能當四年而這四年他的委員任期又跟其他的委員是任期半半交錯的話其實每一個委員新任委員在前兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
36380.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
36400.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
是有舊任委員已經做了兩年的比較資深我剛上來我一定先學嘛等到後面兩年我比較資深了新任委員才剛兩年那因為我們NCC跟公民教育委員會一樣它面對的產業環境都是在與時俱進的你脫離這個位置兩年你再回來再任其實你就跟菜鳥差不多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
36401.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
36411.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
為什麼?你雖然有之前的運作經驗但是對最新的資訊、產業的消息你可能沒有一定的影響力你必須在當中去做一個經驗傳承、做一個學習之後你才能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
36413.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
36434.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
才能夠再繼續進行所以如果我們考量到獨立機關的運作性格的話這裡面的修正動議說連任一次並不得再任如果語意解釋上是指連續做四、八年的人就不能再任了但是如果只做四年的人他未來還有機會再任這樣的話的確是有利於經驗傳承那至於說我們是不是要比照公平教育委員會去強調說 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
36437.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
36438.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
謝謝宗教兵委員接下來請翁曉林委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
36463.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
36482.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
主席還有各位委員我想這一次的這個NCC第四條的新的提出的修正動議案那最主要我們之所以規定任滿的連任一次並不得再任是考慮到就是NCC它作為獨立機關它的委員一定要維持相當的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
36486.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
36508.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
專業、獨立、中立客觀性等等的這些要件可是如果說一個委員他都已經連續做了八年我們很難去就是非常有可能就是會讓他就是長期的把持住NCC這個重要的職位然後會有可能會有濫權的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
36510.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
36523.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
再說其實就我們現在總統的制度還有司法院大法官等等那些制度裡面其實都是只能夠連任一次然後就不得再任但為什麼要這樣的設計其實也是考慮到就是說這麼重要的職務那麼他會有這麼大的權利那當然就是對於整個通訊傳播還有新聞媒體的產業影響非常大如果說一個委員他已經做了八年其實我覺得也夠了再說我們國家的人才記憶 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
36538.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
36562.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
其實應該可以換不同的人然後來擔任NCC委員但這是我要講的還有就是說剛剛主委這邊有說石世豪當時就是在任可是我必須說石世豪主委為什麼會在任因為當時他第一屆當副主委的時候後來那個NCC組織法被大法官宣告為那一屆的組織是違憲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
36564.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
36579.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
因為當時他被認為是個違憲的這個組織．裡面他擔任副主委那他的任期當然跟後來他合憲之後又再提名當委員我覺得那是不一樣的事情所以他並不是所謂的在任的問題那至於說為什麼要刪除就是過度的條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
36588.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
36611.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
我要講就是說我自己當過NCC委員我並不認為江蘇任期制是有必要的還有就是說對於現任的委員對於已經離職的委員假設新委員沒有補提名上還要讓這個已經要離職的委員繼續在留任也沒有太大的意義因為他也不太可能會做出什麼重要的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
36612.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
36632.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
他都已經要離開了那麼如果說還繼續讓他連任下去其實我覺得反而他做出來的決定可能還會遭受到之後業者的質疑因為你本來就是已經要離開的人然後竟然還可以繼續坐在那邊然後做出一些重大的決定所以我的想法是說我們現在的這個設計讓卸任的委員離開了就離開不需要說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
36639.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
36646.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
新提名的委員還沒有補上然後繼續留任這是沒有道理的那麼再加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
36647.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
36671.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
主秘有講說NCC有很多重要的事情必須要經過委員會至少四個人以上的同意其實據我了解很多也都是行政規定你們自己的辦法修一修就好了把真正很關鍵重要再留到大委員會四個人去做決議就好了有一些事情其實就可以透過分組會議就可以去處分就可以做成了其實沒有太大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
36672.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
36697.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
那麼這個是我的看法,再加上現在NCC已經有些業務已經一倒數發布去了所以他們能夠處理的業務其實也沒有太多根本也不需要說有什麼經驗交錯傳承NCC裡面的專業的公務員事務官他們有足夠的能力可以去應付一些例行性的一些行政事務所以我就這個部分來講其實沒有什麼太大的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
36698.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
36721.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
謝謝翁曉琳委員的發言,接下來請吳思瑤委員發言,後孟凱委員請準備。接著剛剛翁曉琳委員的說法,我覺得前後邏輯不通,我這樣來分享一下。剛剛您最後提到說NCC現在很多業務一波倒數發燴了,所以NCC委員很多事情分出去也沒那麼重要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
36723.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
36740.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
如果沒有那麼重要,你們又這麼在乎說做久了他會獨攬很大的權利,做久了可能就會產生你們比較會導向說他就傾向不獨立的這種弊病 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
36741.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
36765.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
我覺得這個邏輯是不通的﹖如果說你覺得NCC委員就是﹖而且您剛剛說您也做過NCC委員﹖你說如果沒有這個嚴任制的話﹖有些事情你們就叫行政處分就好了﹖不需要送到委員會來﹖那是不是您又小看了NCC委員的重要性﹖又覺得分出去行政處理就好﹖那如果照這個邏輯﹖那NCC委員不需要讓你們支柱必較到﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
36767.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
36785.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
二、研商有關:「刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
36792.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
36820.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
來產生NCC的委員也就是說組成一個審查會但是審查會呢是由各政黨在立法院的席次來推薦之那因為我過去在教育文化委員會我對於公式的模式公式去產生它的這個董監事的那個過程實在是歷歷在目啦就是因為公式的模式它就是組成一個審查會然後那個審查會的那個一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
36821.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
36834.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
政黨比例．立法院的政黨比例．以至於公視的董監會．董監事難產了多久啊第四屆的時候嚴當了九百六十八天九百六十八天是幾年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
36835.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
36859.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
第五屆的時候還好一點,延宕五十八天沒有說的是民進黨,他剛剛說他的版本第六屆的時候是延宕了九百五十七天這都是當初的公式模式所以我剛剛有請問,我有請教民進黨因為剛剛黃國昌總召的意思是他們似乎也有在,他們的還在帳上因為就是說他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
36860.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
36873.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
公式條款他今天還是在這裡繼續協商我的理解是這樣不是完全就直接進入國民黨的臨時修正動議我的理解是這樣所以我要再次說公式的模式如果這樣的話就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
36876.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
36898.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
可能再重蹈覆轍讓NCC的委員透過一個審查會政黨比例產生的他就更難產那更因為他難產所以那個過渡條款就必須留著啊要不然延宕了三四年沒有辦法產生新的委員你又沒有過渡條款那你NCC就是唱空城你所有的業務他所有的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
36901.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
36927.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
中央就沒有辦法推動我現在說的是民眾黨的版本民眾黨的版本是用公式模式但是公式模式的風險就是由立法院的政黨比例產生的這些審查會的委員會造成他很難再去推選出NCC的委員所以這樣的話那個過渡條款就必須再存在所以講回來我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
36929.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
36949.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
我個人還是覺得公平會跟NCC委員一樣他是高度的專業性這個人才的珍惜性我自己認為第一項我覺得還是原來的版本比較好你去限制他再連任或是再回任我都覺得這 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
36951.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
36976.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
不太必要啦而且如果如剛剛翁小林委員說的NCC委員現在很多業務都分出去了沒那麼重要的話那你何必在乎所以我希望說是不是延任的條款對不起那個過渡條款是一定得保留的這是基於它的穩健的運作是一定需要的那至於剛剛的連任一次是要以八年之後就不能再 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
36977.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
36992.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
不能再任或者是四年他還可以再任這個在語意上確實是要釐清但如果維持國民黨的臨時修正動議的話既然有行政院長三個月補足那麼他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
36992.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
36994.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
謝謝吳思瑤委員的發言 接下來請洪孟凱委員發言 柯建民總召請準備好 感謝 院長我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
37012.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
37041.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
首先我們先看到這個連任一次並不得再任我覺得重點在於是立法精神大家去思考就是說我們行政機關的部分為什麼不管是總統也好上至總統下至這個地方首長或說這個相關都會有說這個連任一次就是其實我們的立法精神或說這個行政機關的限制就希望是說你最多是八年因為你手握權力在那個地方如果說時間太久了可能會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
37043.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
37070.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
所以相對來講我現在在講的是說立法精神你如果說我們每一個地方的條文裡面講的限連任一次基本上我們也希望是說他就是八年那會有說中間八年完之後再隔四年之後再回來這種任期的相對來講真的是少不能說沒有但是真的是少所以說我覺得回歸到這個立法精神所以這也是為什麼我們提出來是說連任一次並不得再任這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
37073.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
37097.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
再來我必須要先講在這一次的NCC的這個人事提名其實卓榮泰行政院長跟之前的陳建仁行政院長在這個過程裡面就讓我們看到是說其實這個人事提名是真的有相對的沒有負到政治責任為什麼這樣講呢陳建仁院長是在四月三十號的時候來做這個提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
37098.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
37106.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
當時我們五月二十號新上任的時候我在五月三十一號我就質詢卓榮泰院長是說當時的這四位提名人選你有沒有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
37108.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
37132.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
卓榮泰院長原話回答是說他沒有看過他也沒有跟陳建仁院長也沒有找他來討論因為那時候他也不是行政院長雖然說他已經被提名他已經被任命了賴清德總統也已經告知大家說他就是接下來的行政院長了但是他沒有討論而當時五月三十一號卓榮泰院長怎麼回答我呢他回答是說他會在最短時間內提出名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
37134.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
37153.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
最短時間提出名單後來我們等我們等到了我們的協商等到最新一次我剛才看到是七月九號黃國昌委員利用總質詢的時候在質詢我們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長才吐露心聲說他支持原案 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
37154.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
37176.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
所以從五月三十一號到七月九號其實中間有差不多一個半月的時間我們的行政部門其實我們一直在等啊你竟然五、三、一就告訴我們說你會提出新的名單了最短時間提出名單那代表是說你可能你會重新檢視這四個名單這四個名單也不是過去你討論的你會再提出名單但沒想到我們一直等不到行政部門的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
37177.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
37200.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
直到七月九號還是我們委員利用總質詢的時間再問行政院長如果說今天我們委員沒有持續追的話是不是行政院也就無消無息了那變成說兩個機關難道就這樣子轉沒高墜沒老嗎所以其實說實在話我們當初講的本意是什麼你只要行政部門提出好的人選提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
37201.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
37209.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
社會大眾能夠公平幸福﹐能夠有聲望﹐能夠符合大家期待的這種專業的人選沒有人會有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
37212.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
37233.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
執政黨、在野黨我們做的每一個決定也要對人民負責如果說你提出的這個名單﹐確實是他的﹐不管是經驗、資歷以及這個完整度都是讓大家覺得說他符合擔任NCC委員的條件的話我覺得在野黨也沒有反對的理由啊重點是你提出什麼樣的名單嘛如果好的名單出來﹐兩個禮拜我們也可以讓他通過啊但如果說這個名單不好的話﹐很抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
37238.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
37265.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
在野黨或者是立法院沒有背書我們沒有說義務一定要吃下去一定要吞下去的義務也因此一定會有審查那審查完之後就會希望行政院長要在相關的時間內給他補足那我們現在三個月內補足提名嘛可是在這個過程裡面我們也不能讓原有如果說他一直沒有辦法提出一個讓社會大眾滿意的名單的話難道原有的名單就可以持續的一直延任嗎?我也認為不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
37266.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
37289.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
陳耀祥主委在司法法治委員會我們也之前在交通委員會的時候我們也共事過很多討論資訊很多陳耀祥主委就有講過他到七三一他也要卸任回歸學校我那時候問他說如果說我們到七三一之前還是沒有辦法確定名單的話他說他不會留下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
37290.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
37314.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
他還是瀟灑的要離開所以我是請教說你是要自動請辭嗎因為委員也可以請辭但是我們現在講是說我們也避免陷入這樣的尷尬的局面也因此我們就說希望的是行政部門還是要負起責任就是你如果說提出好的名單你們自己先審慎立法院這邊來做一個審查那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
37316.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
37335.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
真的沒有辦法這名單符合大眾的期待的話退回你要趕快補齊但是在這過程裡面你原本的名單就不應該要延任我想這才符合一個雙方各自負責的態度並且能夠讓國家找到真正好的人才我再次強調好的人才我們國家很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
37337.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
37345.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
我們國家很多了．所以只要提出好的人才．立法部門也不會說無條件的杯葛這就是精神以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
37349.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
37375.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
你們現在好像把很多題目都混在一起了什麼好人才、不好人才NCC明天送過來,你們這個記審網都全部不划嘛對不對?那這個...那不是你們是這樣講的嗎?好,我們現在講這個有關於在任的問題溫小英委員當然應該是第二屆NCC委員啦第一屆主委是蘇永青那副主委是十四豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
37376.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
37392.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
那時候是用政府黨比喻去審查委員,審查委員再選NC委員,所以那時候很清楚,因為十四條就是民進黨推薦的,我不認識他,人家說他不錯,我打電話給他。 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
37394.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
37415.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
他在東華大學教書,他說要考慮一下,後來過兩天再打電話給他,他說好,這邊我根本不能上,那時候有很多名單要看一下。但是後來六一三四四釋出來嘛,釋出來的時候在九十五年七月二十一號釋出來,六一三四四出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
37416.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
37434.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
那時候實際上,大法官員也知道,這個違憲全部弄下來的話,馬上開天窗嘛。所以他兩年半以後,也要兩年半以後,九十五年七月二十一號設出來以後,他要叫他九十七年年底,叫他兩年半以後要改選。 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
37435.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
37453.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
換句話說這些雖然是基本繩子違憲但是也不能馬上沒有這就是剛才董事長小丑談的一半一半的一半一半裡面當然跟NCC大法官、中協會也是一樣所以他這個有要審查 不用這種機關完全不見 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
37457.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
37482.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
到後來第四屆的時候石草在當主任委員他那時候米漢去往草他寫債刃寫是債刃的他那時候要當主任委員的時候有點糾葛因為滿久說這個人以前剛進來AZ當副主任委員的時候是科技媒體推薦的這不可靠怎麼可以要當主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
37483.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
37505.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
後來他們討論了半天,還是給十二號當初認為,當初是寫災難所以我們今天談的就是說,不得災難這個事情,這個大家斟酌一下然後我還是認為,因為有銜接的問題,過度條款加了三個月,趕快再提出來,但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
37507.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
37525.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
怎麼剛才何某給你講半天,好像這樣提好的很慘,好壞不是,就請你同意錢啦,好壞怎麼可以看成是好壞?你是不是,你有成見嗎?你說,你說那個陳主委,你十四歲還沒到他,他也沒多嗎?他也沒多嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
37531.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
37552.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
你們網上跳出來點名說絕對不可以計審,你們是計審所以今天不要講半天好像你們好人才、壞人才、好人才你們一定要根本好壞是你心中的主見嘛你就是董運館寵下去,行使下去才見真章嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
37554.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
37568.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
謝謝柯建民總召,現在我想所有的委員基本上都已經充分討論了那個原則上這樣,剛剛大家都一直提到說是當議院以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
37569.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
37570.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議． |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
37587.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
37604.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
因為他連任一次以後其實這樣也就夠了啦就八年做完就夠了啦那這樣好不好那文字修改喔連任一次以連任者不得再任這樣就更清楚了以連任者不得再任 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
37605.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
37630.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
小林啊認滿的連任一次以連任者不得再任就是如果你做了八年你就永遠不能再來那通常這種情況會是在什麼情況就是說如果他做了四年覺得不錯要讓他當主委或副主委他就繼續做他是他們那一屆裡面最有經驗的但做完以後不會再回來了所以適合當主委副主委的就讓他連任不然的話他以後可以再任了可以讓經驗傳承把病改成以連任 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
37632.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
37638.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
不得在任那個病字拿掉然後變以為不得在任你們去改這個沒有什麼道理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
37640.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
37646.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
民意代表跟行政機關就不一樣民意代表沒有任期限制民意代表沒有任期限制但是縣省長、總統、行政部門就有任期限制這東西很簡單啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
37664.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
37668.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
因為某種程度我真的覺得你這樣還是用我們的立法去限制了行政部門的人事任命權嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
37691.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
37709.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
所以我一直覺得八年不能再任的合理理由是什麼?我不太...就我們在討論NCC的這件事情...這樣好不好?我說明一下齁,如果說大家認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
37710.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
37728.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
獨立機關又要滿足他不會一直在任把持也又能經驗傳承那有幾個三個部分我是覺得要一起配套思考就是說除了連任一次以連任者不得在任這樣的情況之下另外一個為了維持半半交錯制 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
37729.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
37742.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
公平會原來那個文字呢（繼任委員出缺時（其繼任者自原任期屆滿為止（這個文字要放進來啦因為這個是有它道理的因為如果我們希望維持它的半半交錯這第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
37743.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
37772.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
第三個部分,其實我還是要回到剛剛吳志堯委員所說的其實目前我們所說的行政院院長因為三個院內補足提名還是會有一個問題就是說為什麼因為公平會為什麼要維持他的那個其實公平會那個寫法還是有點小小的缺漏他說如果未能提任時原委員繼續至新任者接任為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
37772.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
37799.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
這樣的一個說法會有一個問題如果說它隔了半年新任者才來補那新任者的任期應該只剩三年半這樣才能完成半半交作制所以我大概是三個意見如果說希望保留獨立機關它的獨立職權不需要有人太久久任但是又希望能經驗傳承那半半交作制下有三個設計一個是以連任一次者不得再任第二個那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
37800.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
37817.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
委員初學時即任者應至原任期屆滿為止（第三個（如果還是用原來公平會的設計（就是新任者（因為應顧會能提任者（原任者繼續做（但是新任者接任的時候（他只能補原來的任期（ |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
37819.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
37831.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
這樣的話,我們可以讓他出缺的情況,空隙變短。那我要強調的是什麼?因為呢,你不可能一出缺,就馬上可以補到人。我現在還要提醒各黨團,他還有第五項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
37841.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
37864.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
他現在不是國安委員的任期的問題,還有一個第五項請問一下民進黨黨團能同意嗎?所以我現在宣布,如果我們現在這樣沒有辦法聚焦我們第四條的條文,我們就保留好不好?我們現在開始進入下一條,第五條我們先進入第五條李燕秀二十八人委員的提案請國民黨團請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
37876.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
37880.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
請國民黨團哪一位代表說明在第七頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
37901.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
37918.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
五條是李燕秀委員所提出來的那主要的這個條文的內容就是說如果說是主委跟副主委都出缺的時候或是因故無法行使職權這時候就是由其他的委員互相推一人來擔任代理主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
37920.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
37937.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
我覺得這些很清楚為了要維持整個會務的運作需要有一個人來擔任主委翁曉琳委員代替李燕秀委員講的說明一下第五條李燕秀23位委員所提案的請問各黨團請吳思堯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
37947.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
37954.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
主委或副主委均出缺或沒有辦法行使職權的時候是誰來出任代理主委嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
37972.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
37972.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
我們請NCC陳主委請表達。 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
37989.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
38017.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
我們NCC的委員是行政院長提名經過大院同意後由院長來任命那原來其實我們前幾屆我想翁委員很清楚那時候是委員互推那委員互推後來我們NCC坦白講內鬥也很兇委員之間所以後來國民黨在執政的時候就把它修改為在提名的時候就由行政院長指定一人為主委一人副主委那我們現在現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
38019.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
38036.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
前面還是院長來任命結果你如果說要出缺的代理說變成有違護推這個在整個正當性上或民主上好像有點矛盾而且這樣的修法好像有點走回頭路我是建議說是不是可以維持現行的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
38038.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
38054.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
委員請再次發言是,我想李燕秀委員他提出這個條文的意思是因為也有看到當我們的NCC主委是由行政院院長所指定之後其實NCC它就已經不再像是一個合一制機關而是變成首長制了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
38056.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
38082.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
主委的權力很大﹖這也都是大家就想到說現在的獨立機關哪還算是一個合一制機關﹖它基本上就變成首長制﹖所以在這樣的一個情況之下﹖其實如果主委跟副主委同時出缺﹖到目前為止沒有發生過﹖主委跟副主委同時出缺﹖但如果說有同時出缺的情況﹖當然由委員們之間互推一個最有經驗﹖或是最能服眾的人來當主委﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
38083.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
38085.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
來代理主委．而且這也是短暫的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
38098.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
38116.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
我們前一任的詹廷宜主委後來請辭,翁副主委代理後他又請辭,說我是委員裡面被院長指名為代理主委,就是適用第五條的,所以我們已經有發生過這件事情。以前適用複推過嘛。以前適用複推,後來是改成用第五條就實定了。那會搞得很亂嘛。有啦,有啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
38120.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
38147.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
我都走貨我都知道這個是這樣啦歐元基本上這是行政院長提名的人事前所以你不要他來指定誰來當主委那個也是他的人事前啦那互推就不是了吧所以我還是這整個邏輯是怎麼樣都怎樣就怎樣啦不要再去硬去改這個行動也很少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
38149.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
38160.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
我想大家都不要改好了,重點在第四條麻煩重複就不用直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
38162.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
38181.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
對,沒有,就是因為才需要反駁一下剛剛溫委員說的我真的對於您的邏輯是不是跟我同,就是不好意思不再講就是說剛剛溫委員說如果是再由行政院長再去任命的話這樣就變成首長制,我不知道在說什麼他原本從頭到尾就是合議制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
38182.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
38197.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
他從頭到尾就是合議制不是說行政院長在主委或副主委出缺的時候行政院長在指定之後就改變了他現在在議決所有的業務的方式沒有為什麼會因為這樣就變成首長制我不懂這個邏輯是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
38200.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
38201.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
李燕秀委員版本的精神還是在於是說應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
38215.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
38233.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
因為NCC的委員他們就是一個合意制而且我們也希望是他超然獨立那如果說真的有發生這樣的情況的話因為他已經是委員了也因此他沒有已經沒有在審查不像說之前第四條沒有錯是行政院長提名的時候指定一個人是主委一個是副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
38233.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
38255.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
但是他有經過一個審查系統就是有經過立法院的一個審查所以他不一定是擔任主委他不一定擔任副主委他不一定到時候一定通過但現在這個情況第五條是說他們都已經是委員了如果說有真的發生這個情況的話你再由行政院長任命的話這沒有任何的審查機制就沒有任何審查機制說可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
38257.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
38265.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
要求行政院長不要指定其中一個人為主委而是因為他們既然已經是委員了就由委員自己互推 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
38266.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
38289.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
我想這個也是符合相關的一個精神,其實很多的團體都有。但是我還是拜託,既然我們大家坐下來草野協商,大家互相,我們從今天早上那麼早到現在,我覺得院長也很辛苦,院長也很辛苦。真的大家協商的代表都不用說去指責,好像指桑罵槐或講說別人邏輯怎麼樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
38290.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
38317.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
我覺得貶低別人不會把自己形成更高尚我們就是就事論事所以本席講的是說我們可以不堅持我想彥秀委員我們還是表達為什麼講那麼多是因為我想表達的是李彥秀委員的提案有他的意義但是如果說真的沒有辦法取得共識我們在這裡的時候不堅持而且這個情況本來也很少見你說主委不見然後又副主委不見然後再互退這個情況很少見我也承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
38318.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
38344.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
但是確實歷史上有發生過但是請不要否定別的委員的提案不管是提案的委員還是我們今天坐在這邊的協商代表我希望大家互相尊重好不好謝謝謝謝洪孟凱幹事長我們就不再發言我們先不堅持了好不好那跟各位黨團報告那我們第五條那國民黨也這邊就提出了一個不予修正我們維持現行條文現在我們進入第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
38347.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
38359.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
我們請國民黨黨團賴世保二十四位委員提案請國民黨團請說明林思明委員請發言好謝謝院長像第七條是賴世保委員他的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
38360.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
38383.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
那委員他的提案是講說本會委員擔任職務前三年虛承未出任政黨或其他政治團體的職務他的重點在這裡但是剛才他有打他已經來電了他說他不堅持他不堅持所以我想我們也就這一條因為他不堅持我們也不用再做再多討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
38384.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
38398.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
好,那現在提案的委員不堅持了,那我們如果各位黨團同意的話,我們第七條不予修正,維持現行條文。好,謝謝我們現在第八條,傅坤祺等四十一位委員所提案。麻煩請國民黨團請說明。傅坤祺委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
38408.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
38424.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
好,我們再請林思明第八條,我想我們復...你那頭線我忘記了首席副主委長請林思明首席副主委長謝謝院長我想第八條呢因為我們基於說第一項的規定原本的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
38425.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
38449.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
講說NCC要依法獨立行使職權（而且委員應超出黨派以外獨立來行使職權（於任職期間也要謹守利益迴避的原則（不得參與政黨活動（或擔任政府機關或公營事業的職務（或者是顧問（並不得擔任通訊傳播事業或團體（任何專任或兼任職務（所以我們在第二項就規定說（ |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
38451.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
38464.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
NCC委員在離職三年後不得擔任與其離職前五年內之職務直接相關之營利事業的董事及監察人這就是有關於利益迴避的條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
38465.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
38485.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
那我們在這個第八條針列說亦不得擔任公職人員或代表政黨參選公職人員我想這一條的立法精神就在於說因為第一項已經講說NCC的委員要超出黨派不得參加政黨活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
38486.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
38510.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
或者政府機關的相關的一些公營事業的職務．已經有很明確這樣的規定．所以我們從第一項而來．我們認為如果他離職之後．他也不應該去擔任政黨所推薦的．去代表政黨來參選公職人員．或者是擔任其他的公職人員．所以能力法精神在這裡． |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
38512.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
38540.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
希望他就是要超出黨派以外啦請吳思耀委員請發言思明委員第一項確實是他在任的時候他當然要獨立於黨派之外這個沒有問題第二項的前半段再說他離任的時候的旋轉門條款對於相關業務也不得這個也沒有問題這都是現行條文但是就是在第二項的最後面你們要擴大線說對於離任者他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
38542.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
38568.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
權利就是他不可以去出任公職人員不可以參選這已經就違反憲法對於工作權選舉權的部分這個完全是違反憲法對於每個而且他是離任的喔他已經離開了但是基於旋轉門條款利益迴避我不能去從事電信業的什麼東西這沒有問題可是你限縮了他的參政權參政權是憲法所保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
38569.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
38581.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
所以這個在委員會討論的時候我也分享過我的觀點所以這個東西是一定要慎重思考我們不能夠去限制一個離任者他的參政權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
38591.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
38601.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
沒有關係啦,這本的雞髓不在這裡啦這本的雞髓不在這裡柯總召講話了,我們尊重他一下嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
38603.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
38629.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
跟各位黨團報告我們第八條條文的不予修正維持現行條文現在接下來第十條請富坤吉委員四十一人、洪孟凱二十五位委員提案請富坤吉總高請說明我想這個重點還是在他的總額嘛他事情的決定必須要在總額總數的過半為之啊基本上就這個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
38635.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
38650.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
差不多吧?用總額了是吧?我要提醒大家目前憲法所定的國家最高機關屬於合一制有緣額的包括了立法院113名、監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
38654.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
38682.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
檢察院是二十九名．考試院七到九名．然後呢．司法院大法官十五名．那所有這些是屬於這樣名額．有法定名額的機關．他在行使職權的時候．通常不會以法定名額．為計算的緣額．他會以現有名額．包括我們立法院．大家去看徵修條文、憲法． |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
38683.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
38708.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
我們立法院所有的決議都是以全體委員過半數那全體委員怎麼計算呢?絕對不是一百一十三位因為一百一十三位立法委員經常會有缺額﹖有人辭職﹖或者說有人因故去職等等等因此我們的全體委員是以全現有委員那在這種情況之下如果我們要以法定緣額來作為一個合意式機關的緣額的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
38710.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
38735.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
那恐怕．恐怕．會有限制．所以我是建議說．這個還是維持．維持以現有委員．現有委員．現有委員．而不只以法定員額．現有委員．那麼剛剛．我知道民進黨．可以請民進黨來表達一下．因為我知道立法院的委員．額數是以應僱、去職、出缺．就辭職．職跟亡僱者都不記錄．請請 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
38740.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
38759.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
我想這條的精神其實跟我之前提案要修改憲法訴訟法明定大法關係有總額的意義是一樣的就是我們希望能夠對於一些重大的處分案還有像憲法判決這種那麼影響重大的案子還是必須要由多數的委員來決議那麼如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
38761.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
38764.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
謝謝翁小玲委員發言台灣民眾黨目前民進黨、國民黨都表達意見了請問台灣民眾黨有寶貴意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
38793.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
38801.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
沒有意見?好,台灣民進黨基本上都是開放態度,柯總統你要表達意見嗎?總共七個吧,那五個總共一半那是多少?四個是吧?三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
38820.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
38833.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
以這次的情況,如果說有四個委員卸任,只剩下三個委員,那你的意思是說三個委員裡面再去投票過半,不是兩個委員就已經決定一個重要的案子,這樣適合嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
38838.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
38863.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
麻煩NCC陳主委請說明報告各位委員我們現在的運作方法依照我們會議規則來講就是現有總共七位然後要過半一定要四位所以我們剛才講嘛如果只有剩下三位我們委員會沒有辦法組成合法的委員會沒有辦法去做重大決議就是這樣子所以我們還是以四位為我們現在會議自己的內部定的會議規則是用四個至少要四個才有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
38864.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
38870.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
讓委員會合法組成這樣子所以他的修正就是現行的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
38872.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
38898.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
其實憲刑是一樣的,可以不用修啊,憲刑的總額就是這樣子,就是法定總額。對啊,那個,要說給,翁委員他在解釋給您聽,就是說憲制,現在的文字就是您說的那樣,就是法定總額了。翁委員連續舉例了好幾個極端的,每個案子,主委跟副主委都不在。就是憲刑就是這樣,就是以法定總額來處理。還是四個嘛,翁委員講的四個沒有錯。像我們當時齁, |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
38899.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
38916.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
主委跟副主委都出缺我當代理主委我們還是五個嘛可是我們要如果通過那個行政處還剩四個才可以那就是我們的會議規則就是以七票裡面的四票才有過半來做所以現在是議會四個送進來你至少要同一個要四位我們就這樣定 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
38918.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
38941.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
現在的規定它是講的是因以委員的總額過半可是還是回到我們之前講的那個總額就有很多的解釋它到底是指法定的總額還是指現有的總額就不明確嘛委員總額就是七個委員總額的七個的一半就是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
38942.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
38943.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
現在有三個嘛,明天上四個你來同意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
38960.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
38983.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
剛才主委的意見是說他們的會議規則是他們的會議規則就他們一期會一定要四個人的決議才可以成立是不是是這樣嗎所以但是不是我們現行的法律的規定是他們自己的會議規則所以我們現在這樣修法就是說一定要你的法定總額就符合你們的會議規則這種立法就符合你的會議規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
38984.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
38986.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
39006.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
39007.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
我了解翁委員的意思了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
39034.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
39061.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
那麼如果現有的計算就是以七名法定總額為計算標準那你要把它寫清楚寫死了那麼配套就是什麼配套就是對於原來原任、延任的部分要放進來不然的話就會造成缺額造成不能開會所以如果我們堅持要以法定總額七名為整個會議的計算的母數那麼我們要確保這七名盡量減少他有缺額的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
39062.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
39081.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
所以原來的延任規定就是為了運作啦!不是!這是完全相關的事情!這就是重點!因為如果你那個過渡條款沒有保留的話,它永遠沒有辦法運作!它永遠沒有辦法運作! |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
39084.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
39101.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
沒有人要讓機關不能運作重點在於是行政部門你的提名的你有三個月的提名啊你可以我再一次強調柯總召再一次強調這一個人NCC的人事提名我們都很不是不是提的不好您先聽我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
39104.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
39132.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
我們從四月三十號那個時候我們就一直強調說你應該陳建仁院長因為你已經預期得到你五二零就是卸任了你就是一個看守內閣所以你應該要把你的提名人選的提名權應該要尊重新任的總統跟新任的行政院長當時我們在黨一直強調這件事情因為這是責任政治但是陳建仁院長還是在四月三十號他就提名了而這四個人選進來之後卓龍泰院長根本不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
39133.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
39159.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
所以在五月三十一號我們質詢的時候卓榮泰院長才講是說他會最短速度補人選到了七月九號的時候才講說他覺得這四個人選可以所以這中間一個半月時間行政部門完全沒有尊重我們立法部門說實在不是沒有尊重在野黨是連民進黨你也沒有尊重為什麼?因為行政院他就沒有主動告知立法院到底他這人選是誰你懂我意思嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
39159.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
39184.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
所以我們才強調是說其實行政部門他有三個月的時間可以提名人那你就應該要利用那三個月而且不是我到任期到了之後我才去找人嘛其實你從今年二月你已經知道說NCC委員七月三十一號到了你今年二月、三月的時候你就可以陸續的去收集人選了不是嗎所以行政部門有大把大把時間壓到最後一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
39186.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
39210.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
因為最後一天他才提出來所以好院長我比較結論啦齁如果說照剛剛主委您講的確實是委員總額的一半就是一定要四人所以你不管你現在委員現有的委員人選五人你也要通過四票四人也要通過四票好那這樣子我們把它釐清的話那本因為這一個版本第十條有我跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
39211.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
39222.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
副總召的版本那我不堅持我的版本我們就是照原但是前面的部分第四條嚴認的部分我們絕對堅持本來就是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
39232.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
39241.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
那現在提案的委員、洪孟凱委員不堅持,那現在...我如果不堅持的話,我們第十條就... |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
39255.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
39262.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
那本來就總和了文子掌握度很差 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
39275.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
39293.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
好 謝謝 那我們現在提案委員、副分局委員、洪孟凱委員就不堅持我們第十條不予修正維持現行條文報告各位黨團所有的幹部我們現在立法院黨團協商我跟各位報告一下協商結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
39294.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
39318.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
時節一百一三年七月十一日,星期四下午兩點三十分,地點一廠三樓。三、協商主題,並案協商。一、司法及法制交通委員會報告並案審查委員傅坤琦等三十三人凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案。傅坤琦等四十一人凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
39319.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
39336.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
侯孟凱等二十五位委員凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案．翁小林等十八位委員凝聚國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案等四案．二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
39337.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
39354.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
藍絲堡等二十四位委員（凝聚國家通信傳播委員會組織法第四條及第七條條文修正草案（三、李燕秀等二十三位委員（凝聚國家通信傳播委員會組織法第四條及第五條條文修正草案（四、協商結論（ |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
39355.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
39383.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
一、第四條保留送院會處理二、第五條、第七條、第八條及第十條均不予修正維持現行條文三、其餘照審查會審查結果通過四、院會進行處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過保留部分暫保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
39383.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
39391.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
一、臺灣民眾黨黨團．二、民進黨黨團．三、國民黨黨團．順序輪流發言．每人發言時間三分鐘．發言完畢後．即進行保留條文之處理．請問我們黨團協商結論．大家有沒有寶貴．請吳思瑤委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
39401.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
39425.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
委員長,我是要確認一個事情,因為剛剛在第四條的時候,我們看到的是,因為民進黨是維持現行條文,然後國民黨是用今天用一個修正動議,那因為我不知道民眾黨的案子還是不是也是表決的標的,還是您就是﹖到目前為止是﹖還是有民眾黨的那個公式模式還在﹖到目前為止是﹖你公式模式還在啊﹖還在,對,我要確認這一個﹖因為違憲的不好了吧﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
39427.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
39442.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
沒有啦,你有你的立場跟主張,我尊重啦那但,你就回去看613,什麼叫做提名前被實質剝奪再一次謝謝NCC的陳主委,還有一整天花很多時間,很辛苦啊謝謝各位觀眾,我們先簽這晚,請離席,我們就繼續往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
39454.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
39457.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
我們休息五分鐘,下面繼續休息五分鐘後繼續向下還有下面的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
39470.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
39470.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
那民眾黨在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
39500.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
39517.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
誰啊?沒有辦法?明天再來?因為那很多同仁很關心你現在幫你找不到人,我們不能這樣搞,真的我跟妳講不是,妳要看情況,我那種威脅都會來,這個不能這樣搞嘛,海多倫都很關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
39782.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
39787.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
總編證委員會官卿都要來啊好,你今天在這裡沒夠召喚 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
39811.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
39836.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
麻煩請那個麻煩請那個會議室安靜一下我宣布一下那三個黨團都共同決議今天晚上就我們今天朝野協商看到這裡為止因為新住民法案有很多委員都關心所以我們明天早上等院本部的討論事項結束之後再麻煩各黨團以及所有的閣員跟官員我們再來討論剩下的朝野協商好幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
39837.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
39850.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
好幾個法案．包括新住民法案．還有其他新租金送的好幾位約估在十點半左右也請大家參考我們今天超越協商就到此為止再一次感謝各位列席的觀看 |