| IVOD_ID |
16088 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16088 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-33 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
33 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-10T08:31:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-10T11:53:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:21:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2df83f7170d9d56c87d6a76734f739918228aaa308df9ea37374b2592802aef9ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:03 - 11:53:00 |
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SK-II |
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1792.586 |
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報告委員會初期委員10人以主法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1804.485 |
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1826.101 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年7月8日星期一上午9時1分至11時46分地點紅樓山林一會議室出席委員陳永康等11人列席委員蕾士寶等10人列席人員國家安全局局長蔡明彥及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1826.761 |
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1851.23 |
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大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑．文化部政務次長王實施國家通訊傳播委員會副主任委員翁柏中．法務部調查局局長陳百利．主席馬召集委員文軍．報告事項．宣讀上次會議議事錄．決定確定二．邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥．大陸委員會．文化部國家通訊傳播委員會．法務部調查局報告近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應．並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1854.071 |
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1871.544 |
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委員陳冠廷等實施人質詢．軍有國家安全局局長蔡明燕．大陸委員會副主任委員梁文傑．文化部政務次長王實施．國家通訊傳播委員會副主任委員翁伯中．及法務部調查局局長陳百利等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1874.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1892.1 |
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二委員所提口頭及書面諮詢為其答覆或要求提供資訊．請相關機關與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複之本會．委員應指定期限者從其所定三委員陳永康、洪生翰、劉許廷及葉元之等事人所提書面諮詢．列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1904.192 |
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1929.183 |
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沒有議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告．國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位．DIU．後．對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效．並請數位發展部、國家發展委員會．國家通訊傳播委員會．國家科學及技術委員會．等列席．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1932.849 |
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1954.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
首先我們先介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康委員王定宇召委黃仁委員還有今天出席列席的立法院外交國防委員會與會的官員國防部部長顧立雄顧部長副參謀總長鄭榮峰執行官 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1963.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1990.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
常務次長 楊基榮 楊次長全民防衛動員署 白潔龍 白署長總督察長 市李榮華 總督察長政務辦公室 廖建新 主任政治作戰局 陳玉琳 局長軍備局 林文祥 林局長主計局 謝祺賢 謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1993.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2018.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
軍醫局蔡建松蔡局長．戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長．資源規劃司鄧克雄鄧司長．法律事務司沈世維沈司長．整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長．國防採購是趙雅萍主任．人事參謀次長是劉佩志劉次長． |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2022.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2031.537 |
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情報參謀次長是謝日生、謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是陳文新、陳次長後勤參謀次長是陳道輝、陳次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是盧建忠、盧次長訓練參謀次長是張俊智、張次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2051.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2069.001 |
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海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長．空軍司令部王德陽參謀長．後備指揮部肖淵泉參謀長．憲兵指揮部呂正芳呂參謀長．陸軍後勤指揮部劉清薰劉參謀長． |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2078.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2103.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
執通電軍指揮部陳俊良參謀長．軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁登處長．電訊發展市政計處林政委林處長．國家中山科學研究院李士強理院長．數位發展部政務次長．薛和民薛次長． |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2106.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2132.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
數位產業署莊育智莊副組長任信建設司胡明仁副司長國家發展委員會詹方冠副主任委員國家通訊傳播委員會翁伯忠翁副主委北區監理處蘇思翰蘇副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2135.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2140.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員陳中全副主委工程技術研究發展處郭金副處長科技辦公室主王英鈺王主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2160.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2174.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
本日會議邀請國防部顧立雄部長報告．國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位．DIU．後．對建軍備戰有何革新作法及未來預期成效．並備質詢．請國防部顧部長上臺報告主席各位委員先進請就 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2192.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2214.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
現代戰爭不能僅依賴傳統的武器和戰術,更需要先進的技術資源來提高作戰效能。而從科技發展的趨勢可以發現,民間科技逐漸成為科技創新的主要驅動力。國軍必須與時俱進,積極引進民間科技創新能力,有效運用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2215.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2240.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
整體國防資源及能量以強化國防實力確保臺海防衛的不對稱優勢今天應邀致大運委員會實施專案報告將針對本部成立國防創新小組規劃進行報告請各位委員持續支持各項國防創新事務推動接續由本部的整評師的苗惠芳司長向各位委員做報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2251.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2278.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席、各位委員先進緊就本部成立國防創新小組之概況及預期成效進行報告首先說明設立目的現代科技與作戰形態快速變化過去多由軍事科技引領商用科技的發展為近期的惡霧戰爭與以哈衝突則顯示民間新興科技在推動國防創新方面已發揮重要作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2280.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2299.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
為了適應戰場變化以及建立強韌嚇阻戰力本部參考美國國防創新單位（DIU（的作法與今年2月1日成立國防創新小組負責創新概念評估及引進民間成熟科技協助提升整體防衛能量接續報告國防科技的研發體系及負責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2304.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2329.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
民間學術機構透過本部軍備局及國科會學研計劃委託民軍大學針對技術備變水準 執行基礎研究、應用研究及關鍵技術發展中科院中科院整合民間學研成果聚焦執行TIL-6以上系統發展以加速供應國軍先進裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2332.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2339.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
令審酌國防自主及長期發展需要若民間無能力時由中科院執行關鍵技術發展。創新小組則針對民間成熟的技術與產品進行評估及引進,擴大國軍裝備獲得來源。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2354.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2376.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
基於前述的科研體系創新小組的主要任務及作業流程包括創新概念發展創新小組將綜合敵情威脅、戰爭形態及軍民科技發展研究分析教家之戰術戰法與行動方案有效運用先進科技提升防衛力量戰力需求確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2378.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2405.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
結合作戰概念與實戰場景、召集聯參及軍種、研議及確認需求項目．立後續向民間公開徵集解決方案或成熟產品。民間技術產能調研．針對國內外國防產業最新發展情況進行調查研究．並與國科會、經濟部、美國DIU及印太司令部等進行交流合作．作為技術引進的基礎。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2407.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2428.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
公開徵集與方案評估與政府採購網徵求科技解決方案包括成熟技術原型開發與成品並由專家群審查評估方案的技術狀況及軍事運用的可行性導入建案籌貨經評估符合需求方案由國軍建案程序籌貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2430.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2458.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
現貨產品及承受技術由需求單位執行量產建案需構改、性能提升或系統整合之裝備則由研發單位進行科研建案加速系統開發編組規劃及預算創新小組設置於整評司成員包含軍職、文職及聘僱人員區分創新作戰發展、產業調研評估、軍民科技應用三組執行各項工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2460.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2484.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
後續將聆聘產學研組成專家群提供諮詢及協助評估方案．確保符合科技水準與具體可行。創新小組執行資料搜集、會議召開等所需預算由整評司業務費支應納入建案並完成審查之項目由本部軍頭預算配付經立院同意後使得執行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2487.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2512.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
優先領域,創新小組現階段以民間具相當科技能量的無人載具﹐反制無人機系統、AI目標辨識﹐自主導航及指管輔助等產品及技術為優先聚焦項目﹐令持續關注通訊、網路站、雷射及高能微波等領域﹐逐步擴展引進的範圍。創新小組由以下三項革新作法﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2513.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2525.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
善用民間新創技術及能量借對外公開徵集的方式鼓勵國內外新創企業投入國防領域為台海防衛作戰提供科技解決方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2526.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2547.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
加速成熟產品及技術導入．創新小組將從聯戰的角度．主動訪查瞭解部隊所需．評估成熟科技導入軍事運用的可行性與作戰效益．提出籌貨建議．協助軍種快速建立達成任務所需的能力．國防科技共同合作評估． |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2549.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2577.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
美國DIU致力於協助各民主夥伴強化防禦能力本部將積極與美方交流在美方協助下強化專業知識與人才訓練分享創新技術運用成果預期成效創新小組扮演橋樑角色將國防需求延伸到民間新創產業透過軍民合作使軍方獲得創新科技持續提升軍事作戰效能及創造不對稱優勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2579.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2592.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
在高科技戰爭形態下持續評估引進成熟技術或裝備以提升情監偵指揮管制與聯合打擊效能使軍隊有能力應對新形態的威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2594.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2621.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後報告結語．國軍透過民間緊密合作．獲得先進技術．增強軍事效能．確保在快速變化的環境中．有效應對安全挑戰．本部創新小組．目前尚處於起步階段．將依規劃程序．以求實、求穩的態度推動相關工作．並聽取各方建言．以建構最適作業模式．以科技力量支持國軍防衛作戰報告完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2629.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2646.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘．非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止．若有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右．視詢答情形進行處理．現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2657.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2659.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
謝謝主席,有請國防部顧部長是,羅遠豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2668.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2688.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
部長早部長我們近20年來的民間科技的這個研發創新真的是日益的強大那像過去的話很多這個創新的科技都是由國家跟軍方來做引導那可是我們從美國的例子可以發現從2015年開始他就成立了的DIU辦公室索羅民間有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2688.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2705.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有可能轉變為軍事使用的科技技術也獲得很大的成效目前我們國防部也參考了美軍DIU成立的國防創新小組本來本是想要請教的是我們要如何做到向上述的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2706.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2727.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我剛有聽了國防部的這個報告我一直以為這個國防創新小組他是一個整合的這個平台可是看起來他除了整合之外呢其實他自己我看了這整個這個報告其實我們其實還有這個分層負責的這個概念我想請教的就是報告裡面所提到的國防科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2728.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2728.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2747.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2751.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
中科院負責的部分是TRL6以上的系統,所謂TRL6以上是否包含7跟9? |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2769.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2772.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
創新小組沒有研發的能量創新小組是做一個民間科技的調研之後做一個媒合跟橋樑 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2789.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2818.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是,所以從科研的角色其實它就是屬於一個研發的部分然後創新小組它是作為這個評估跟這個引進嘛OK那我有看到之前有一份報導有一位這個金士珍他有提到了他說台灣軍工產業體系規模雖然不像美國可是也是非常的錯綜複雜所以我們是透過成立這個國防創新單位呢將擺脫過去各種國防科研跟生產案都有中科院變 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2819.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2819.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2849.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2871.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
創新小組,我們一直以來有一個電腦模式模擬的系統在整品室裡面根據這一個電腦模式模擬的系統,我們會綜合敵情的威脅、戰爭型態跟軍品科技的發展根據這個模擬的系統研究出一個比較好的戰術戰法跟行動方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2871.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2878.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那這個比較好的這個戰術轉變行動方案之後呢就會導入就是說那你到底是需要什麼樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2880.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2902.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
武器來有效的來遂行國土防衛作戰那這樣子的話我們把這一個東西拿確認之後呢我們就向民間來公開徵集這個解決的方案或者是去尋找成熟的商品那麼中科院的這個部分呢當然我們沒有完全放棄他的這個有關這個他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2906.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2931.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
基礎的就是說如果說你講技術備備的水準在TRL6以下的並不表示中科院會完全放棄因為我們還是要省著國防自主跟長期發展的需要民間如果沒有這樣的能力中科院還是會來做但是我們為了快速形成戰力的話當然我們根據報告就可以看得出來就是說如果民間有一定的成果的時候那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2933.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2957.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
現在我們事實上如果講得白一點,像火攻的這個系統,這個事實上民間按照法律的規定,我們現在受到法律的制約,我們沒辦法在火攻的這一塊,因為受到槍到彈藥保險管制條例的一個拘束,所以還是要有那個。那另外有一些技術要做系統性的整合,那也要由中科院來做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2959.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2988.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那這樣子的話能夠一方面我們根據科學的這種電腦模擬的結果或者是大家討論認為是符合我們不對稱作戰的這個狀的優勢能夠形成不對稱作戰優勢的這種相關的武器或者系統然後引進來之後就可以來強化它的話那我們就盡快的讓它快速的形成戰力所以整個的目的就是如何讓它能夠透過一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2989.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3017.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
整合的一個這樣子的一個整合的這個平台然後讓它縮短整個研發的一個時間不然的話常常現在研發的時間要耗費相當長的時間對於我們現在應對敵情威脅所需要的這個快速行程戰力是不是很好的所以我們希望把它來導向一個快速行程戰力這樣子的一個目標這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3018.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3037.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以部長您簡單講就是說我們創新小組最主要的角色其實就是收了一些已經進入到作戰系統或是通過這個作戰任務的這個產品跟技術嘛對不對這是我們最主要的這個角色嘛對不對是這樣子的意思嗎他跟這個中科院這邊沒有這個重疊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3039.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3041.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
中科院回歸研究角色,創新小組負責收穫、引進。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3059.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3059.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
孫科研 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3077.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3104.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
他有他自主研發的這個部分也有我們國防部撥款給他研發的這個經費那所以中科院研發的這一塊我認為在DIU就是說創新小組成立之後他不但不會弱化他應該會隨著我們評估的結果那他要去做一些相關的整合的這個工作的這一個或者是把他技術水準到從6以上的然後達到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3105.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3128.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
會成為一個作戰的一個量產的一個目標我認為他應該是會有更多的工作要來做只是縮短這個期程這樣OK好了解那部長之後呢我們大概創新小組呢最主要比如說我們會引進的這個產品跟技術會是比較著重於像污染系統方面嗎像無人機啦無人艇之類的會是我們以後的未來的重點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3130.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3157.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
對,跟委員報告,他這個分,我講白一點,就是說分國內跟國外,國內的部分我們要進行調研,那也要跟國科會經濟部合作,國外的部分,其實像美國的DIU也事實上跟我們在進行,已經相當密切的合作了,那印太司令部也會跟我們進行交流,那甚至有一些是具有實戰的一些經驗的,不管是用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3158.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3176.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
相關最近這些發生衝突的地區的這些具有實戰的經驗的這些這些您剛剛提到的就是說不管是無人載具、反制無人系統、AI的目標辨識等等的這些我們會來跟他們來瞭解他們的能量這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3178.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3202.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
因為像台海這個這陣子近年來這個關係非常的緊張我們也看到說像他們這次的全國這個人民大會有提到特別提到說AI發展的這個部分所以我們還是針對這部分我們也要非常的這個注意像美國也好中國也好都要積極發展這個AI科技像台灣的也不得不提早的做這個準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3203.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3225.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好那再來還有一點時間我們在11115年要成立這個冰海作戰指揮部那聽說我們的台灣海豹部隊要併入這部分引起了一些退伍官兵的一些反彈那美方也在注意畢竟這個是他們協助成立的這部分國防部的說法美國特別關注這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3226.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3249.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我想相關的這些說美方反對還有甚至講美方同意這個都不是事實這不是事實那有關相關的這一些組織的一個變革的演繹呢我想我們會根據國土防衛作戰的一個需求那以符合最佳的作戰效能來從事這一個部隊的一個編裝的一個演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3254.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3263.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
因為聽國防部說這不是猜測其實它是一個整備那對這個退伍這個老兵這個我們有沒有去做溝通他們就說要來抗議那美方這邊我們有去說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3265.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3272.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我個人從來沒有收到任何美方對這個問題的一個… 因為這個相關涉及到這些我們防衛作戰任務的一個改變,其實這個部分我可能沒有辦法在這裡公開向 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3286.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3300.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
是,因為我有看報導說美方在抨擊說我們是自廢武功,所以這些都不是事實就對了?沒有,沒有這樣的,完全沒有這樣的一個事實存在,這個是反而是要精進這個我們整個國土防衛作戰的這個部署這個跟任務這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3301.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3327.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
對,這也要對國人說明啦,我在想像土魯軍人、老兵他們覺得這可能是不是很好的一個做法,這可能軍方還是要說明清楚應該不需要太擔心說有這樣無端被裁撤的狀況,我們一定會來秉持一個最具有作戰效益,包括中隊的這個他的任務一定會存續OK,好,以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3330.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3334.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
謝謝 接下來請王帝宇召委上台質詢王帝宇召委上台質詢王帝宇召委上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3360.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3379.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
局長今年漢光40號的乖乖是你們做的還是陸軍自己做的今年的這個乖乖是國防部這邊為了推展全民國防希望民眾能夠關心國防事務你知道多困擾嗎現在大家要買買不到這個是一個小事情我今天特別把乖乖帶來 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3381.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3407.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
當然乖乖台積電的機台上面都會放乖乖啦是民間資訊業很喜歡這個事情是代表著創意是代表著有趣代表著跟人民之間的親近好事戰訓本務當然重要但用哪個界面讓人民看到國軍在做什麼因為這樣子好多人就開始說漢關40號是什麼事情所以這個不管哪個單位做的這不是顧部長做的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3412.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3417.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我建議你們現在好像是限量然後市面上好像也沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3418.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3446.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我要了解一下因為我們限量2500箱本席就這麼一包我連拆開也吃都不敢就這一包而已我是建議說在漢光演習期間如果我們有這樣的創意發想我以前有看過有小朋友拿著國旗在路邊那個以前在軍演的時候會有一些鼓舞軍心的事情我倒覺得這個是蠻好的一件事情一個季節限量版讓有興趣的人可以買到那上面可以傳遞一些不管對牧兵或 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3447.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3465.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
韓光要傳遞給居民一體或者是全民民防的訊息在上面本小利多他還可以用賣錢的這個事情先讓你參考我接下來請部長謝謝委員所以到底是不是政戰局用的是有沒有願望你沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3467.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3484.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
新浪大隊做的嘛因為我以前看你們空飄氣球到中國也有類似這樣的東西好你先請回好部長我們回到我們相關不管叫DIU或者是我們軍軍事裝備的研製採購等等本期有幾個問題要就教於您第一個這個是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3488.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3511.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
看起來無聊但是很重要一件事情我們在政府採購法裡面有關軍事機關財務勞務採購減價收受作業規定我今天特別拿出減價收受我們常常在發包比如說3000萬或者1億某一個品項的時候當然要如期如質交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3513.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3529.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
但是會有物價調整．會有原物料缺乏．會有關鍵零組件團員尋商不到．就會產生變數．或者像蓋銀色、蓋炮效．它會造成物價調整的時候經費不夠了．那我們常常就會有追加預算． |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3530.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3554.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
會減相還有一種就是好吧那我就所謂的減價收受那追加預算或者是減相發包它有一相關的規定你不能高到一個比例像最近基隆市追加預算可以追加到超過50%以上那個都罕見我今天特別focus在所謂的減價收受的部分它有六個條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3556.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3584.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
有六個條件呢好我現在有一個標案你標到了就你做不出來了或做出來了不符合品項項目或素質的時候符合這六個條件呢就可以打折給他買進來部長這個狀況你應該了解啦我當律師的時候都有處理過類似的這裡面其實會有一些可能產生弊端的地方值得思考的部分第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3585.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3598.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
他為什麼後面需要會做不出來有一種可能他是低價搶標比如說這一個裝備在國際市場上都是一億他用五千萬給你標到了你又不能用Made in China的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3599.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3626.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
他到時候交貨就會有困難那還有一種情形是他以為搶了便宜標到了可能被別特定廠商把那個供應鏈掌握住了他根本買不到貨所以之前整流器有沒有以前上次中科院爆發一個整流器小東西結果呢他去找原廠原廠就是不賣給他他就跑去找這這樣吧找一個廠做假的來供應還有一種情形是 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3628.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3645.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個標案呢原來就用低價太低的價格設定所以正常的有能力的廠商不進來會變成一些良誘不齊只要有生意做他就切進來的所以減價收受是末端源頭的標案是可能有很多樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3647.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3672.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那這裡面有6種情形可以減價收受我這邊要提醒我們不管是採購室、中科院、軍備局或者是部長這裡我們常常各單位在結案的壓力下在結案的壓力下就用減價收受把這個案子處理我不知道部長還是各位這個主管有沒有看過這個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3675.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3699.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
檢架收受當然我來國防部這裡還沒有碰到但是我過去在擔任律師檢架收受確實是一個對主管來講做決定的時候是一個很困難的一件事情很大的考驗我記得好像是馬特拉馬特拉也是對但是他就還可以他可以用只是他所以現在就是說我現在舉幾個樣態就是說比方說 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3703.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3724.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我這個車子軍用車輛某一個零部件標案的時候是指定一定要什麼的他現在供貨供的東西可以用不影響安全就像整流器也可以過電只是跟原來要求的產地不一樣他沒有用到中國的產地他可能規格不一樣甚至於防彈背心防彈背心可以減價收售我都覺得很 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3731.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3740.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
有的東西是過關跟不過關可以不可以我不能打六折打七折部長懂我意思嗎所以我會建議部長部長是法律的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3741.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3762.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
在減價收受上可能要一個team去review一下我只能點到這裡這個減價收受我的了解齁我過去的處理相關經驗都要經過相關專業律法律專業跟這個使用單位他們的一個很深深的評估我這一題我先提了解比方我舉例我曾經跟陸軍討論過像我們在偵測無人機齁這個參謀長你不用上來不用上來就偵測無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3768.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3796.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
他一個距離6公里幾公里要有什麼能力那是絕對標準結果我們設定的評分竟然是好啦你沒有6公里那我給你70%的分數本來要買三項整合的到最後呢有一個拿根本不應該應該是0分的就只買到兩項整合就國軍就當了冤大頭所以減價收售是各位主管擔任擔任主管在做決定的時候最大痛苦也是最大的陷阱 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3797.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3811.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你可能收了品質他整體還可以用但是這個標案在源頭就作弊了或者這個標案可能會有些問題所以我特別今天請檢架收受請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3813.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3842.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
Review一下那我未來會拿一些具體個案給各位那我也建議尤其剛接主管的像李士強剛接中科院這種剛接主管的站規師剛接主管的該看一下既有的減價收售的案件看一下不管是營建類啦或者是他品項的品質都達標只是原來要求1000件他只做了600件這個還可以討論但是如果在品質上堪用 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3844.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3869.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
卻減價收售的這個都值得懷疑甚至我們應該建立一個規則品質未達標根本不可以用減價收售這個我給部長做參考因為這個樣態太多沒辦法每一個都把它列出來我接下來請教部長我們上一次我們國防委員會有排這一個考察到我們軍備局所屬ST112的兵工廠去看那個是205嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3874.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3894.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
當天有一位沒有當過兵的委員叫林義軍委員他今天不在他打滿把耶滿把打得比參謀長分數還高滿把的原因我們就去看了後來我們也去試用了後來發現有配備這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3896.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3916.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
進戰的瞄準鏡那個4倍的進戰瞄準鏡對於訓練射擊的準度、效率跟訓練的時間的縮短有非常大的幫助我們到現在還是在用瞻孔瞄準可是在戰場上如果要用瞄準鏡的話我們平常都沒有這樣訓練特戰有而已所以ST-112在這個裝備上 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3922.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3950.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們如果採購飛彈採購所有的武器都追求打得更遠射得更精準更易形成戰力訓練時間成本縮短那為什麼我們的步槍兵我們的單兵這樣子的步槍不需要這樣的標準所以我不知道部長我們未來有沒有可能讓這樣子的光學瞄具而且這個不用對外採購是我們自己兵工廠生產的能不能全軍變標配有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3952.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3973.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
報告委員,陸軍參謀長向您報告,呃,陳蒙,呃,如這個委員所說的,這個,呃,新式的步槍,它已經從光學瞄準,已經改變為,呃,機械瞄準改變為光學瞄準,那效能的確是很好,那我們的整規書也在,呃,這個月會送到行政院,呃,整體規劃書,那目前我們的,呃,籌購,籌購啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3978.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3996.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
現階段我們是先以特戰跟下車戰鬥的時間的關係我這是給部長思考當然要花經費但是我們也不是一年我們可以五年或多少就是說我們現在新式步槍有幾個決策需要參考部長你 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4002.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4006.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
來部長我這個很重要三點要提醒你就我了解我們兵工廠有在研製6.8口徑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4010.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4034.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
6.8口徑跟我們現在的5.56口徑因為北約用6.8的美軍的新式步槍用6.8的共軍用6.8的那我們現在國軍還是5.56的這個口徑所以如果軍備局研製的新式步槍有6.8重量差異不大那我們整批換裝是不是要用T112還是要其他的這是一個決策要思考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4035.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4053.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為它子彈比較大、吸彈量的數量比較小但是打中的時候對方不能動的機率比較大5.56打中的話對方還可以往前衝跟防彈背心形成毛與盾的競爭所以我沒有說絕對答案也就是說6.8正在研製中聽說今年底會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4054.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4082.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那我們現值的T112是好槍坦白講K2也不錯國際評價也很好所以當我們要換專心式步槍的時候到底要進到6.8跟北約美軍一樣還是維持5.56這是一個重大決策因為這一決定20年以後再看下一批了第二個重要決策是我這樣子的步槍要更換那我們的現役部隊至少第一線部隊不是只有特戰如果能夠配上光學瞄具 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4083.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4100.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
他的精準度提高他的打擊能力提高而且最重要是步槍兵的訓練的時間縮短效率提高這個時候在平時可以有提高訓練成效縮短射擊訓練時間大幅提升精準度但是如果在特殊時候或者在暫時的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4102.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4116.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
後備要形成戰力形成有效的步槍兵那個訓練時間就非常非常的重要這個請部長思考我們可以分年把他撥上去那謝謝主席給我的時間我最後一句話就是我剛剛跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4117.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4126.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
陳永康委員在這邊討論我們現在空軍在美國有整個建制部隊在這邊受訓陸軍也有營級聯兵營兩個營在美國受訓美國也有派人來我們這邊協訓但是我們現在海軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4134.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4159.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
海軍並沒有在美方的艦艇上訓練的至少就我知道沒有但這個是很重要的再來剛才羅美林委員會問的驗證我們現在在場的所有的將領都沒有在美國的相關的實驗室跑那個模擬是要工程師跑要不然會變動畫所以可不可以爭取到這兩個就是海軍在艦艇上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4160.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4161.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
謝謝部長做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4171.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4195.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員不需要我回答這個6.8公里的步槍研發會在今年開始進行那禮拜一十三年底以前完成研製跟交軍的測評那麼您剛剛提到的那個那些瞄準器的一個設備我們逐步到位逐年編列然後到戰鬥人員就全部的戰鬥人員都要謝謝那剛剛講的海軍我覺得這一點有點 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4201.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4202.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
謝謝主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4231.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4260.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
是,黃委員你好鄉親的懇託跟人民的期盼侵佔的痛苦或是被佔用的痛苦大家都會有一些不安我在3月12號得知空軍有到關山我們關山鎮去做一個說明會 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4262.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4286.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這個說明會的前提待會我再做一個加強說明在3月14號我就在這個地方當時時任邱國正部長在詢問的時候有關於臺東縣關山鎮要設置戰備跑道一岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4289.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4312.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
為什麼沒有請聽地方的聲音那當然是這先前是一個做一個說明會說明會當時時任為空軍參謀長我們曹參謀長有參與這個說明會那後來我才得知我才得知在做一個說明會之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4314.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4341.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
而且是強力的認為那個地方就是要設置後來查次之後才知道沒有取得地方先做一個商議因為那個地方也有原基法土地的原住民的傳統領域包含原住民的保留地還有私人用地還有農田、糧田等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4344.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4364.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
當時在還沒有開3月12號開說明會之前你們應該取得部落協議的一個敦親的一個會議結果造成民眾強力的開始抗議所以我在3月14號跟邱部長就已經有這個詢問後來得知會重新檢討這是一個答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4372.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4400.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那另外我在4月2號我又特別召開協調會當時時任的曹參謀長也到後來也問了他說就不一定在那個地方重新是不是在思考到另外一個地方來考量是這是一個協調的結果那如果有進一步有進一步有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4401.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4426.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
新訂的方案在另行通知我結果藐視本席跳過7月1號、7月3號、7月9號要召開說明會召開說明會所以後來7月1號民眾抗議不管是台東縣長姚慶林或是成功關山鎮長 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4428.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4446.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
還有地方的齊老民意代表包含鄉親都已經在那邊拉布條抗議所以我7月3號下午我就召開協調會為得知那個我們新上任的參謀長王參謀長後來說已經請聽到聽到民眾的聲音了 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4453.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4473.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那當然地方還是不安所以縣長跟鎮長昨天親自帶領將近百位的鄉親來到立法院表達他們的一個抗議所以部長你新上任我想再來跟我們台東的鄉親我們對國防的國力 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4477.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4504.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
跟戰備我們絕對支持我們國軍的戰力增強對我們國人的保護絕對是安全的當然如果在沒有取得地方的民意而違背了我們在地方的國土計劃法的產業整合跟資源配置及人文資產的保護那另外又跳過 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4506.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4533.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
憲法保障的原基法的時候我們如何：國軍如何跟警民合作的一個心態所以今天我要特別再次的詢問部長有沒有可能再找另外一個地方這個戰備跑道不要再執意在現在你們所指定一個說明會的一個地點麻煩你來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4535.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4544.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
跟委員報告,我的理解是我們會來審慎研議這個相關其他的可能的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4545.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4573.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
也會傾聽這個地方的民意來做一個審慎的評估好這個答案我相信我們臺東的鄉親還有關山鎮的鄉親都聽得到應該安定了這個心我相信國軍的戰備戰力我們是絕對支持但是一定要取得地方的民意的聲音一定要聽到以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4573.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4580.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那另外是我們過去蔡政府在成立資通電金 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4583.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4610.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
但是這個理想很豐富現實很骨感最後蔡總統在卸任前把資通電軍形同解編原因除了從民間延攬相關高科技人才不意外最重要的就是組織再造的問題那當初這個資通電軍的成立的指揮部 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4613.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4634.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
帶有先設建後跨把的性格將原本的國防部的支電指揮部改名為支通電經指揮部在併入入軍各軍團和防衛部的通知群及通知連整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4636.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4658.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
通知系統出了斷層人事和指揮權都一團亂如今要成立先進國防創新單位那我想請問一下部長成立這個先進國防創新單位是誰建議成立的國防創新小組我想是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4662.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4673.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
就我理解應該是在這個蔡總統的任內那就有這樣子的一個構想那美國因為DIU也有成立相當的時間從2015吧就開始有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4677.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4702.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
跟委員報告就是說因為有人一開始就認為說這個是好像是在學搭把但是我們不是在學搭把搭把是那種先進的好像要發展比如說次世代未來戰機啦那個有時候看起來好像外星武器一樣的那些東西這是我們做不來的那我們做得來的就是要以我們有限的資源來引進成熟的這個裝備或者是系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4704.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4727.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
或者技術等等來快速的來形成戰力那我們現在在設置在整平室底下那我想是應該是沒有在沒有沒有就在整平室底下設置一個現在先行設置一個附加邊組然後我們來進行一個穩健踏實的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4727.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4740.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我想好我想這個不是蔡總統因為蔡總統在之前成立的這個資通電軍已經解編所以我現在問的是資通電軍還在啊還在嗎還在還在還在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4751.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4774.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
有沒有效能的運作跟委員報告我是中電經常務長目前我們中電運行整個的完整編制都還在那我們因為任務的需求要把我們的這個相關的通訊部隊有編配到各作案區來提升他的作戰效應以上報告那我想部長成立這個先進國防創新單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4777.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4792.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這是不是我們蕭副總統的旨意蕭副總統在午夜初在美國國會論壇提出台灣將仿效美國的國防創新單位以便能 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4793.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4818.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
用最快速、最具體成本效益的方式將尖端科技應用在軍事領域副總統實際上並不是管國防業務但此消息是由副總統講出來且副總統當時在甚至沒有就職卻已經對國防業務下指導期或者是先進國防創新單位是由美國指導組成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4821.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4844.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
跟委員報告,那個我們參考這個美國的DIU的做法是在2月1號就成立了您剛剛講的蕭副總統講的應該是5月吧?是不是?他的一篇公開的演講裡面去提到,如果我記得沒有錯的話所以事實上他只是因為他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4848.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4872.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個相當的關心這個這樣子的一個DIU的運作所以他應該是只是就我們已經成立的這個事實然後還有一些如何這個來發展這個創新概念的這個評估跟這個引進民間成熟技術來做一個將美國的這個DIU來做一個說明然後希望我們可以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4878.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4902.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
來就我們這樣子的一個做法然後跟現在這樣子的一個先進科技的一個趨勢的發展能夠契合我想他只是做這樣的一個算是一個一個闡述這樣子的一個概念而已並沒有我想不要跌床架屋因為很多事情是如果他是具備 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4903.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4919.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
有能夠快速而且具備有效能的話當然這個可以研究那另外我想請問一下國造無人機的預算遭排擠在根據今天國防部的報告先進國防創新單位的優先領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4923.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4949.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
在現階段是以民間具相當科技能量之無人載具反制無人機系統AI目標辨識自主導航及職管輔助等產品及技術為優先聚焦的項目但國防部在預算似乎在成立先進國防創新單位互相矛盾媒體報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4950.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4964.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
國造無人機預算排擠而未獲量產請問部長原本要採購無人機的預算是否是哪個部分的預算被排擠那另外我想請教請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4967.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4983.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
部長之前已經表示無論是美國的彈簧刀還是台版的彈簧刀我們都會採購兩者雖然性能類似但在同時編裝下本席發現有三個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4984.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5005.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
第一個是系統整合第二個指管應用第三戰術搭配要如何做到我想請教主席再給我30秒我是不是請周議員講一下因為我們雙重併進我們這個部分就是要靠AI |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5006.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5019.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
考AI那為什麼預算會被排擠預算並沒有被排擠所以部長之前也講過不管是美造的彈簧刀或是我們國產自製的攻擊型無人機都同時在進行所以現在是用AI |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5021.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5024.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以現在我三個問題發現的是系統整合、指管運用、戰術搭配所以你說用AI |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5044.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5072.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5074.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5077.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
接下來請黃國昌委員上台諮詢可以謝謝主席嗎 有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5096.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5124.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
事由黃委員吼部長吼 延續上一次啊那個質詢的主題啊綠能國家隊聯合再生我們納稅人投資的綠能國家隊不要說投資啦 是紓困拿錢去給他亂花的綠能國家隊竟然在我們的南洋指揮部還不止還包括了其他的海軍營區啊等等裝了中國製的逆變器那上一次質詢完了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5124.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5153.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那也很感謝我們部里的同仁把一些聯合再生他們回報的一個結果包括了說在軍警局有22台陸軍紅柴林園區有44台海軍有62台國防大學有83台這一些中國製的逆變器他們已經都呈報回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5156.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5179.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
國防大學應該是沒有應該是您講的應該是三軍三總的松山分院部長您看一下我現在在講的是逆變期國防大學率真園區沒有沒有是不是沒有我等一下跟部長報告針對有的部分我上次跟部長提了說如果我們國防部有要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5181.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5195.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
對這種不肖廠商只是抓到了趕快通知他你被抓到了趕快換一換就不會有嚇阻的效力上次部長承諾我說你會回去研究一下契約當然我前兩天我有質詢過國安局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5197.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5224.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
也就是說在我們自通安全管理法裡面針對這個部分沒有設法則我個人是期期以為不可但沒有關係現行的法規範狀態長成這個樣子就契約上面主張權力這件事情國防部現在打算怎麼辦國防部就那個涉及的紅彩林的營區應該是會終止這個合約其他的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5224.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5240.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
其他部分跟委員報告因為如果涉及這個變流器的部分的話我們評估結果因為它沒有涉及運算傳輸等等的這個功能所以它只有逆變器的這個部分的話應該不至於有影響治安的這個狀況所以我們會採更換的這個部分來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5244.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5261.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我跟部長交換一個概念就是說能夠到我們國防部的軍事要塞裡面去裝設這種東西的廠商我們要很嚴肅的看待我希望建立的原則是不是他哪裡被抓到 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5262.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5285.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
哪裡壞一壞就處理掉了而是要一體性的去評估這一種會欺騙會說謊而且無視國防安全無視國安安全的廠商在本質上是不是我們國防部我們各個部隊我們所有其他三軍可以合作的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5287.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5309.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
跟委員報告我們現在齁因為他是講他原來是租地跟或者是租屋頂所以我們原來的這一個相關的這個驗收的作為可能沒有因為他是我們只是單純租地租屋頂給他可是現在我們我已經要求了部長你說的有道理你說到的齁完全是point |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5309.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5337.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
他租地租屋頂來幹嘛裝他的東西嘛裝他的東西要發電嘛他要賣電要賺錢嘛我們允許一個廠商喔到我們的軍事要塞裡面去裝各式各樣的設備讓他發電讓他可以賣電所以我剛才跟部長講這個廠商會不會欺騙很重要這個廠商有沒有把我們國家的國家安全放在心裡面很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5339.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5366.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個廠商有沒有顧慮到我們這一些非常辛苦冒險犯難我們的這一些軍人很重要所以我才跟部長講說我只是跟部長交換一個概念國防部面對這種廠商什麼樣的廠商我們應該允許他到我們的軍事要塞裡面來去裝這些東西這件事情要控管為什麼我會做這樣的事我跟部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5367.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5397.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
他絕對不是不小心的啦上次我給你看的那個照片照片上面貼紙就Made in China嘛除非你把眼睛閉起來否則你只要睜開眼睛就會看到那個叫Made in China他為什麼敢這麼大剌剌的他有恃無恐而且不只這樣來我給部長看他說有裝中國製路由器工業電腦的只有紅柴林營區嘛這個是剛剛他們回報給部長的內容我應該沒有掌握錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5397.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5424.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
是好來清查的結果也是這樣說好來我為什麼說齁他們騙國防部我今天詢答完我願意選擇國防部是被欺騙而不是國防部知道在幫他們遮掩因為我這兩天我一直在想到底是他們騙國防部還是國防部知道以後幫他們遮掩來請看一下這個是廠商喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5425.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5441.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
公務車輛RCX維護日期2024年7月2號回報的人員、維運的人員全名我都有但我想不要為難基層的人他們只是奉命做事他們去做什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5443.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5465.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他們去國防率真營區、教學大樓等等等等地點全部都有然後說明處理的狀況國防大學應校方要求回收MIC就是Made in China相關監控設備共11台IPC加Routers這是資通訊產品路由器含SIM卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5472.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5498.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
回公司那等於是什麼等於是國防大學知道通知這個不肖廠商欸你東西也來給我拆走因為軍人他自己不會拆嘛那些資通訊產品他已經通知廠商叫他來拆走然後廠商被通知以後派人去拆拆完了現在拆完了沒有拆完了所以才會有這個什麼違運監工作業回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5501.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5527.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那結果國防大學是以逆不報嗎?國防部是被蒙蔽嗎?請部長這到底怎麼回事?這到底怎麼回事?跟委員回報齁上6月26號委員執行完之後我們部長就非常的要求我們要落實這個我了解部長很重視請不要講我們確認三次就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5529.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5549.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
回報只有洪才琳有錄遊戲是 國防大學什麼時候回報的至今啦 我們沒有得到這個訊息對不起 我聽不懂我上次檢舉就有檢舉國防大學啦剛剛部長也說國防大學沒有啊所以到底是沒有還是你們不知道還是沒有回報現在情況到底是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5551.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5577.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我看委員既然有這樣子的一個質疑我想我們會下去之後會跟國防大學來進一步來進一步查明因為主席站起來我很快跟部長報告你們是有發新聞稿的喔國防部清查了結果發新聞稿喔所至於國防大學率真營區則沒有使用錄製產品我相信這是國防部發的新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5578.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5605.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以剛剛我不曉得您左手邊那是哪一位說你們不知道應該不是不知道就有發新聞稿了嘛是他沒有回報給我們我們不知道對那如果沒有回報給你們那你們怎麼會說沒有呢他是應該回報給你們說沒有嘛而不是沒有回報給你們我這樣理解沒有錯吧他應該是回報沒有沒有回報沒有好那我今天就是要跟部長檢舉這件事他跟部裡面回報說沒有那就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5606.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5629.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
而且還是他通知廠商去猜的猜的還不是只有逆變器喔是IPC喔是路由器喔含SIM卡喔那這個問題就嚴重了嘛國防大學誰在包屁跟廠商勾串嗎這到底是怎麼回事部長可不可以承諾把他查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5630.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5647.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們下去會把它調查清楚那個查清楚查完了以後查完了結果是不是可以回覆給我可以可以我只有一個原則齁太可惡了太可惡了被抓到還幹這種事啊被抓到還幹這種事啊對不起我們的國防弟兄啊甚至本來還要輕輕的放過他 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5656.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5657.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5683.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5686.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝主席,有請顧部長,謝謝請顧部長部長好,那我還是回來今天我覺得比較重要的問題因為今天的這個報告事項是跟這個創新中心有關係所以我還是以這個問題來為準那我看能不能快一點補一下剛剛失去的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5709.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5729.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
第1個就是這一個就是按照這一次的業務報告就是剛剛羅美玲委員有問過就是有這個TRL從1億一直到9然後呢民間學術機構比較負責的是一些基礎那中科院去做一些整合那創新角度可能更從一些戰略的角度然後跟國外的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5729.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5732.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
中科院會做一些,比如說它在系統整合裡面,然後要在作戰環境下要怎麼展示。但因為創新小組跟中科院在這一邊,看起來功能重疊的蠻多的啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5755.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5767.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以想知道的第一件事情就是中科院在這邊的定位到底會是偏向什麼是不是說是創新小組比較像是發想中科院做執行呢還是說有另外的這一個分工的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5768.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5795.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
創新小組必須根據我們這個相關的你剛提到特別是聯戰的這個區域需求然後來發展出一個分析較佳的一個一些戰術戰法跟行動方案然後哪一些武器能夠運用一些先進科技成熟的先進科技然後來提升防衛力量那這樣子的話它就等於是作為一個橋樑 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5796.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5821.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
他將這個國內或者是國外的這些我們相關得到的一個資訊那我們會進行了解了解以後呢經過大家討論認為是OK的那另外我們會進一步向民間來公開徵集他雖然是有了但是我們這整個系統也好裝備也好可能還要有進一步的解決方案那他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5821.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5847.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
他再進一步跟他徵詢一些解決的方案那相關如果已經到達某一個程度的話我們中科院也是仍然扮演不可或缺的角色仍然要交給中科院去做相關的這個系統的整合或者是進一步的研發成一個就是直接成為一個裝備可以來那這樣的話期程會縮短 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5848.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5866.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
因為時間的因素有一些小細節我先不問第一個這個我可能下一次再問就是說當然就是說民間成熟科技當然是會是我們很重要的一個目標但我在看美方的時候其實美方有時候他做的他不一定會找成熟科技那他不找成熟科技的時候他中間會有一些來來回回的一些確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5868.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5888.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
到底這個科技要怎麼運用在這一個軍方這邊然後以及呢就是他本來是商規然後商規要怎麼變成軍規而不是一開始就要求他軍規會有一些細節的問題但這個細節的問題我想晚一點問因為我想根據這個剛剛部長的回答關於中科院的這個角色就是說呢左邊這邊是中科院的這個第三條說中科院的業務範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5890.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5907.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
裏面包含生產、製造、銷售、國內外的交流等等之類的那第一個呢我還是就是說這個我在前面在這個邱部長的時候我有提過一件事情就是因為中科院他會負責生產、製造跟銷售但因為中科院的這個董事長是國防部長來做兼任 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5908.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5928.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那今天如果是這個創新他們去提出一些需求然後到最後國防部也需要做採購但是因為中科院本身他的董事長也是部長自己所以這個其實不管怎樣的這個在以法律上來講這個等於是這個買方跟賣方都會有這個國防部長這一點會有點奇怪那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5930.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5943.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
當然不一定會是一個問題是因為它本來就有它不是用一些政府採購的規定但是呢像剛剛講的譬如說資訊上的一些這個整合或者系統的整合它並沒有很完整的定在這個中科院的業務範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5944.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5969.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以除了剛剛講的這個利益上的這個衝突的一個小點之外我有在想說我們是不是要把這一個中科院的一些根據剛剛今天的業務報告做一些修整這個我還沒有提出來因為我覺得這個是要慢慢來回討論的事情我這邊只是嘗試性的寫寫看就是第一個就是中科院它畢竟會有一些比較需要更突破性的一些創新發展所以我用紅字把它標在這一個第一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5970.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5985.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
然後第四款這邊呢因為有講到技術移轉跟技術服務這是本來的條文我就想說因為系統測試跟整合是中科院非常重要的目標那是不是應該在修法的時候把中科院的任務把這一個放進來我覺得這是重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5985.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6012.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
然後再來第二項往下就把這幾款的突破型技術關鍵技術依照我們本來的建軍需求去把它清理起來這是第一個我的一個建議那第二個就是講到的就是生產跟製造這一邊就像我之前在質詢葉士進葉士進今天有提出需求之後401也有給中科院也有給可能民間也有給那但是因為中科院給他的角色就會特別的奇怪因為畢竟董事長就是部長自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6013.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6024.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以不知道就這一點而言有沒有可能我們在休會期的時候就是來討論一下就是中科院的定位然後根據這一個新的方案是不是有一些修法的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6027.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6050.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這可以來研議,來進一步來研議中科院的更明確的定位這樣子。好,那就是希望就是說我們看能不能在之後的時候討論一下這一點,因為畢竟如果按照今天的業務報告,其實中科院看起來還有更多的任務要做。那如果今天民間的這一個能量是越大的,民間可以做越多事情的時候,中科院可以更專注在做整合。 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6051.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6051.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6067.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6081.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好那接下來就是因為在報告裡面有提到AI那當然我這邊會有兩個小問題就是說因為裡面有提到一些優先事項跟其他要做的事情那優先事項裡面呢其實並沒有把網路戰把它放在優先事項但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6082.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6106.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我覺得比較奇怪的一點是我們民間最強的看起來是網路就台灣雖然剛剛有一個自動電的一個差距但是台灣確實在民間上網路這個部分是蠻強大的所以這一個方面的創新這個部分是不是應該把民間的這個網路相關的一些量能放進來這是我第一個問題那第二個問題就是AI因為右邊這一個是中國之前的這個武裝機器狗 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6110.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6131.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
眾議院在美國的眾議院就要求他們的國防部長要報告就是說他這個AI如果去結合這樣的一個方式會不會變成一個不受控的一個殺人武器那我們台灣因為畢竟AI的一個演算如果今天按照中科院之前講的要做一個真打一體的無人機那真打一體的無人機他也有可能會有這些問題就是說他如果不受控該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6132.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6148.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那今天他的AI的演算要不要直接鎖在裡面他不要去連接外部這些事情不知道有沒有一些研擬相關的規範跟委員報告第一個網路站的部分在我們報告的第三頁是有提到我們會關注網路站的部分這第一個當然沒有放在優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6149.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6177.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
對沒有也不能說沒有放在優先我們會持續來關注這些網路戰也是我們持續重點的關注項目之一AI的這個部分在軍事上的應用上面應該是說深層式的那種自我學習的這一個部分的運用要非常的注意對所以自我學習然後自我去發動攻擊這個部分在軍事的運用上面是現在大家就非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6180.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6200.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以我們這個AI的這個系統要讓它不至於成為不受控的自己可以自我決定去的這樣子的一個狀況應該是不至於我們不會讓它成為自動的一個殺人機我們最後決定的這個指令還是要接受人的指令 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6203.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6230.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
跟委員很簡單報告就是AI運用在軍事用途上最基本的倫理就是最後的攻擊指令必須要由人來下達而不是AI這是我們會嚴守的原則對沒問題因為這個目前來講就是我這邊列的2023年美國跟荷蘭還有荷蘭是結合歐盟都有發布叫做負責任軍事使用人工智慧的政治宣言那另外一個是軍事領域負責開發部署和使用AI有些規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6232.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6241.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對外公佈我覺得這也是我們可以做的事情這應該在行政上或許就可以做所以搭配這一次的業務報告我覺得這件事情或許是將來我們可以考慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6243.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6269.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
最後這一個還有那麼一點點時間根據DIU的部分大概問到這一邊最後一個是要問蔡媽媽這三個月一直以來都在樓下部長可能也知道部長以前也有在紅中秋案我也有在紅中秋案我們對這些事情其實也相對熟悉他們之前有開一個記者會就是說到底軍援委員會要不要讓它比較有一個常態性的設置這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6270.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6290.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那第二個就是呢其實蔡雪良案國防部後來已經有發新的報告了然後也有去說這跟原來的報告不符啦那我覺得這當然還是涉及一個軍中轉型正義的問題就是說為什麼就是後來的確生出了一個比較正確的報告但是在過往的那麼長的一段時間為什麼這一個報告它是一直都沒有出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6291.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6316.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以我覺得這個當然呢我們這雖然是一個過去的事情但是我覺得軍中如果能夠做好一些轉型正義的工作我覺得對整體政府的那一個大家對國軍的信任度也會有提升未來陸海攻擊懲罰法裡面會有明定關於類似這樣子重大的一個案件會組織一個專案的調查小組然後會讓當事人來做陳述之後還有一個相關應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6318.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6346.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
專案評議會員來請外部的委員來參與這個我們調查小組之後的一個評議這樣子對未來來講是我們在陸海公益採訪法案如果通過的話那就有相當的一個機制那蔡協良案我當然自己也一直感同身受但是他確實已經經過相當多的司法程序的調查了這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6347.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6370.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們面對這個司法已經窮盡了我想這個部分我們情證調查是不是有辦法能夠再做更多這件事情因為我們沒有這個這樣子的一個翻轉這個司法調查的結果這樣的一個權力所以這一點可能也要請委員能夠諒解 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6372.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6398.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我覺得這一點是OK的就是司法程序它的進展我們不會去智慧那當然我覺得但是我覺得一直比較傷感的地方就是在過去有很長一段時間它其實有翻轉的機會嘛但是有一段時間一直沒有辦法去生成這樣的報告然後後來是迫於壓力之後才形成那我們想要問的就是說在這個之前的狀況我們要怎麼樣在體制內讓這種事情不要再發生不是說這個案件不要再發生而已而是說案件發生了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6399.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6399.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6425.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6437.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
因為外界有確實聲音說軍援委員會要這樣,那我認為陸海公益懲罰這樣的一個機制,如果能夠儘快通過的話,就等同這樣的機制是可以把它體制化這樣沒有問題,謝謝部長謝謝主席我們下面請馬文君委員來質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6457.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6460.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長有請顧部長部長早安部長在這裡要先請教的是因為剛剛黃國昌委員也有揭露就是說國軍使用中國制太陽能的逆變器、路由器、工業電腦等等還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6481.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6501.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
許巧信委員也揭露了國防部使用中國製的行車記錄器那這幾天因為剛剛聽到黃委員在質詢的時候顯然可能還有很多的部分沒有調查清楚或者甚至可能有掩蓋事實的部分那因為這個其實是非常嚴重這個不只一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6502.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6508.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
不只太陽能不只這個像行車紀錄器還有很多過去其實也一直不斷的發生我們先來看看因為行車紀錄器這個早就驗收結案了國防部當時除了更換以外好像沒有其他的做法可是我們常常說的非常大聲訂的好像非常嚴格不可以使用錄製的產品當我們嚴格要求的時候甚至有些是法辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6528.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6528.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6545.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6563.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
車輛都被裝上這個錄製的行車記錄器他到底已經有透露了什麼樣的訊息有流出去我們不得而知可是我們看到我們現在很多案子顯示國防部在採購上面沒有認真的查場 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6564.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6564.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6581.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6583.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
對於這些行車記錄器當時其實已經有找過國防部相關的人員詢問那時候查核的結果也都是輕輕的帶過我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6595.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6598.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
就本席曾經就總金額其實兩年大概高達4億的陸軍中型戰術輪車的維修案有提醒伊達諾公司是出具不使原廠授權書的方式向國防部揭標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6611.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6636.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那時候陸軍還有相關單位其實都堅持說採購的過程都合於規定可是到最後也發現有很多其實都是採購陸制的產品我們先來看看這些包括這個行車紀錄器當時是有一家互唱公司他們得標結果過沒多久就他的媽媽的公司叫益坤金屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6638.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6642.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
就從大陸進了大概1400具左右的這樣數量就進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6645.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6674.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那到底這個家族他到底做了我們國防部多少生意我們現在先看一下他們的記錄益坤金屬他有34個案子被停權護暢公司有17個案子被停權暢威新業有4個案子被停權再加上這個伊達諾就是之前標到我們的輕型戰術輪車的這個公司他在後指部目前二省的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6675.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6700.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這個官司其實都輸了很快可能也會被停權如果這些家族我們來看看他的關係首先這個益坤金屬是護暢公司這個兒子的媽媽然後他的女兒是伊達諾汽車公司然後還有另外一個女兒就是暢威新業這些做了我們國防部非常多的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6701.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6701.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6720.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6720.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6734.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6741.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
分布在我們陸海空各軍種他所有的採購其實都發生這樣的問題請教部長對於這個我們對於陸製的產品這麼大聲疾呼說在合約上面有訂相關規定後續要怎麼做跟委員報告一樣都是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6755.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6775.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
就那個太陽能光電的這個部分因為他們原來是認為租屋租地部長沒關係因為那個黃國昌委員在關心太陽能的這個部分我剛剛是說其實有非常多因為包括剛剛很多被停權的案子很多都是因為他可能用了陸製的這些產製品 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6778.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6788.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們未來應該要怎麼做因為你有很多包括你現在的無人機包括你還有很多的國防武器裝備甚至未來我們在DIU上面你甚至可以讓國內外的企業都可以參與我們的國防的一些產業發展那這個就更有可能會有這樣類似的情形不斷的發生我們有什麼樣的作為我只要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6804.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6827.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
部長有什麼樣的作為?我想我們我個人的看法以我過去也是法律相關背景我認為我們應該要在驗收的程序上面要來加強來測驗這個要結合政風單位也要結合法律的單位然後一起來進行相關的這些驗收的一些程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6827.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6845.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那從採購式開始呢就要進行這個採購的這個部分部長部長這個部分其實過去到現在都有當我們提出質疑的時候這些單位也都很認真的保證說這個應該都沒有問題可是最後發現他就是有問題當我們凍結預算的時候我們事先預警的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6852.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6858.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
還是被強勢的通過各項的預算剛剛王朝偉也特別提到很高興他發現到這個問題就是我們很多案子是減價驗收當你做的品質不夠好或者品質有瑕疵或者有一些違規或者甚至不符合我們的軍種作戰需求的時候我們都是減價驗收他的樣態當然非常的多我們只是只想要知道他可以怎麼做部長請在這裡告訴我們現在不斷不斷的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6883.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6903.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
以你在法律這麼專業的背景情況之下未來怎麼樣去防止剛剛說的那些本來就有了在我們的程序體制上都有一旦發現以後我們怎麼做因為你就是換掉而已啊現在目前是換掉而已啊不然就停權停權他又換了一家公司還是繼續飆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6906.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6922.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
現在如果停選之後他換了一家公司的話我想我的個人立場認為我們應該要做一個詳細的查核如果他是有這樣的一個狀況的話部長顯然沒辦法查核啦因為我剛剛念了幾十件還有十幾件什麼這樣被停選的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6924.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6937.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
簡單來說因為時間的關係部長可不可以在合約上面訂的清清楚楚包括他的罰則還有他應該接受什麼樣子的一個條件的一個懲罰有沒有辦法在合約上面訂定清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6938.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6963.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
各位委員我是國防採購室主任謝謝委員指導我這邊針對剛剛委員所問的摘要的跟委員報告有關於這個廠商的部分不管它們之間的這個關係是怎麼樣我們依據這個相關的規定它的廠商的基本資格包含設定登記的證明還有它的納稅證明這都是標準的規定我們去審認它之間的關係當然是只是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6965.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6969.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
如果要講到這樣我們就來講重點我們一直只希望要結果可是你一直在把過去的案子如果你還要再擦脂抹粉我們現在來看因為今天這個家族他們成立什麼樣的公司我們也沒有意見他可以設立很多樣的一些相關的公司都沒有問題可是他公司地址跟工廠地址都一樣都在這個地方甚至上一次要修我們的車子的時候在那個二樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6994.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7000.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
請告訴我怎麼樣在二樓修我們國軍的輪車還有他進口的他媽媽在大陸進口以後我們用了經濟部標準檢驗局合格的檢驗證明就等同他的產地證明我們是這樣收受的我今天只是要知道說你不斷不斷的發生的情況之下你應該要有什麼樣的作為因為顯然是沒有用的或者甚至有人在包庇 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7024.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7044.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我只想要請教部長未來這個部分要如何杜絕如果你沒有辦法杜絕你甚至要用最新的DIU或者什麼樣更多的方式你只是開越多的那個窗口越多的可能的漏洞讓大家進到我們的國防產業來有沒有一個基本的一個防度的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7046.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7064.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就法律面來看我想以剛剛委員所指教的就是說比如說這些他新成立的公司他的地址是一樣的那我這個認為就很有可疑所以就這個部分的話我們應該要在查核上面就要能夠審慎那甚至是讓他不符合資格標 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7065.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7085.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以我想這個部分應該要來做所以從採購的合約規範一開始一直到最後驗收的程序我想我們都有很多要來檢討以委員的指教來檢討進行的空間我會來好好地來重新檢視我想我們的法律事務司應該要承擔這樣子的一個責任好 那就這個部分未來要怎麼樣防堵這個部分請給我們詳細的書面報告好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7090.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7093.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
另外因為時間的關係今天我們主要討論的就是我們的DIU的部分我想請教因為我們有提到說未來這個小組優先要導入無人機跟人工智慧因為現在也剛剛要成立它可能我們還不是很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7108.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7108.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
．併請國防部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7126.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7142.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
的作法比如說現在的民間我們覺得因為我們現在已經要編了五六百億的預算可能要採購無人機我不知道預算這個金額是不是正確啦至少那個是軍用商規的部分就至少五六百億嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7143.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7148.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們跟美方採購的其實也高達100多億都是非常高的金額那目前我們現在軍用商規的部分有沒有什麼特別突出的部分比中科院還要好因為中科院研發了這麼長的時間至少經費也耗費了100多億以上可是民間有什麼樣的量能還有新興的科技的這個技術創新的技術比這些還要好是不是可以舉例一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7173.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7187.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
因為你要花那麼多錢啊因為你現在已經要引進了也認為說這個很好是不是可以舉例說在無人機上面民間的科技有什麼樣的一個創新的做法比我們現在還要好 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7188.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7204.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
現在就分工來講的話因為現在中科院比較focus是在那個三四級的這個無人機的這個上面那我想日後要 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7205.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7219.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
結合相關我們的作戰需求所相關的需要的這些特別是爭打議題的那無人載具我想我們已經有相當的一些但是我覺得不適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7222.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7225.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
公開的去講說哪些因為無人機的相關技術都非常的公開透明因為全世界都在發展無人機它只是不斷的進進我們看到的它有很多就是可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7238.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7258.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
之前尤其是最近的二無戰爭上面他有一個成功的一個效果當然他後續還是被發現可能GPS可能被影響以後他沒有被干擾以後他沒有辦法很精準的做到位那我現在只是要請教的因為剛剛一直講說這個是創新科技嘛那你要讓民間進來所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7261.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7264.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
中科院其實有已經做出建想他是有有有那個兼徵跟攻擊喔騰雲也是攻擊然後還有瑞淵我們之前還有很多還有什麼紅雀其實我們有非常多他包括針尖 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7279.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7285.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
都、都有還有攻擊也都有不是沒有可是你現在民間的創新技術到底是什麼可以比我們的我們原來的這些更好應該要具體的說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7293.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7308.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我想他這個我們運用這個無人機的這個部門您剛講的騰雲這是高高空的這個無人機那至於這些內營的是海軍在用的那紅卷山現在還沒經過測評 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7310.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7326.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那我想這些相關的這些包括剛剛講的您提到我們買的這個300或600的這些彈簧刀或者是我們能夠發展出更遠程的這些整哪一體的無人機或者是我們水面的這些無人艦艇 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7328.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7347.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那甚至有可能的話水下無人載具等等這些相關的這些技術在整個運用無人機的這相關的AI技術來包括影像識別目標定位防撞避撞防撞避碰然後自動航路規劃火力分配等等這個都有各種跟委員報告我只最後講一句話從烏克蘭戰爭的經驗告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7351.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7362.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
無人機的需求是非常非常大的部長我們認同因為很早之前我們也非常關注無人機也認為這是必要的發展我現在只是想知道說我們編了那麼多的預算如果連我們五六百億軍用商規還包括跟美軍購的這樣加起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7368.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7370.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
其實可能高達800億以上那現在我們剛剛念到的這些剛剛部長你說的這些功能、性能其實中科院就是已經花了非常高額的預算去研發出來的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7384.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7399.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
中科院花這麼多都還不如人意民間的力量或者他的創新科技都還可以高於中科院我們想知道的是民間到底是什麼樣的創新科技可以比中科院花了這麼多錢研發出來剛剛林林總總念的這些比他還要好這個部分因為時間的關係麻煩再給我們一些相關的資料這個部分我們持續可能還會再討論因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7411.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7437.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
部長無人機的預算被凍結如果今天我們有這些創新的想法DIU也要成立了那目前我們採購的這些無人機可能都是比較過時甚至可能他可能不符我們的需求這些我們是不是現在各軍種要買的這些預算是不是也應該要暫停讓他好的進來你有AI的技術引進或者其他因為民間顯然已經有了你才會認為說會比我們中科院的還要好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7440.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7448.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我覺得我們需要扶植民間自我產能的這個提升我覺得這個案還是有效還是請委員多能夠支持因為我們如果不提升他們的這個部長我不是說不支持民間的這樣的一個量能而是說你現在已經有一些創新的科技如果它可以直接加進來我們就不會先買過時的然後以後還要再買新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7468.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7491.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
這樣對我們來說我們的預算有限的情況之下其實我們只要讓我們中科院或者相關的民間企業可以清楚的說明我們的無人機到底優勢在哪裡甚至比俄烏戰爭實際有實戰經驗的還要好的情況之下我們去買這些不是更好嗎這部分是我們在這裡特別提出來是不是部長可以去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7492.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7497.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們支持在所有無人機採購的相關預算可是既然你有新的科技創新包括剛剛AI說我們是以人為本我們會這樣控制在它不去傷害人這不是我們能控制的我想現在的科技或未來的科技它會怎麼衍生我們不曉得可是我們就現在務實面來看我們就講現在就好了好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7516.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7544.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好那請部長再提供相關的資訊是謝謝那部長我還要一個資料就是我們上一次有說快期專案的部分我要的不是我要的不是你採購的過程而是在那個艦艇在無人艇為什麼人家可以兩百萬六百萬可以做出來我們卻需要六千萬這個部分希望可以清楚的給我們所有委員會或者甚至我們所有的委員可以知道詳細的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7546.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7547.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
主席麻煩請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7572.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7595.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
是 陳委員好部長好其實關於這個DIU我們這個論壇很早我們在2016年2017年那時候我們有邀請陳委員陳永剛將軍一起來來參與關於這個創新生態圈的討論那專業圈已經過了七八年了那很高興今天可以看到說我們在國會可以共同來去談這個議題來 下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7598.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7618.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那我們看到國防部提供的報告說是善用民間新創技術及能量那採用對外徵集的方式來鼓勵國內的這個新創企業投入國防領域那這邊有提到說創新小組將以國軍建案程序進行籌獲所以我們知道說傳統的採購過程是非常的冗長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7620.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7641.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
美國的DIU之所以能夠有現在的成效那是為什麼那是因為它有OTA的機制在那OTA讓美國國防部能夠去避免掉傳統的這個繁瑣的聯邦籌貨的規範在所以說他們可以跟企業的彈性的簽訂商業合約那這樣還可以大幅度的提升它的無貨的效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7642.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7671.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那其實OTA的機制我們來看從2016年開始剛好是跟這個DIU正式的來去成立在美國成立的時候才開始因為國防授權法去允許它擴大使用OTA的方式所以美國國防部它提供用OTA簽約的方式它的金額是呈現爆炸式的成長那我們這邊有看到從2016年它是0.76億美金它到2028年是到20億美金那這還不是最新的這個data出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7672.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7688.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我們知道說這種類似OTA的這種機制國防部是不是要考慮一下來去採購來去思考一下建制更靈活的採購機制我們講的是更靈活的採購機制剛才我們提到幾位委員有提到說這個不夠可能有些不夠好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7689.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7709.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
但是問題是我們要更多元多種類量也很重要這樣包含二無戰爭其實二無戰爭我們用的不是最好不見得是最強是什麼定義最好是什麼定義我可能是在每一個不同的戰場環境下他必須要最適應我想這還是狀況在在這邊那我們希望今天我們討論這一個DIU我們要討論他從源頭開始的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7713.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7720.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我想請教一下,類似美國的OTA的這種加速創新制度的這種採購方式的引進目前的狀況是什麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7722.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7746.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
跟委員報告,我想你要了解國防部的困難那我想如果建案的程序如果不做的話那麼沒有符合這個立法院監督的這個要求的話這個部分很容易會引起質疑那我們現在做的話如果能夠做就是我們盡量的採急迫性建案的方式但是還是要取得立法院的同意這樣子謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7747.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7773.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那我想就是盡量把美國的資訊我來跟大家分享那第二個部分DIU為什麼能夠這種創新的這種小組能夠存活下來還有包含武器獲得的流程的一個改善那我想大家應該知道說像是緊急能力的獲取軟體籌貨中階系統的籌貨等等它是讓新聞化能夠制度化那我當然知道一開始很難一定會有很多不同的質疑聲但是不代表說 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7774.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7782.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們在創新的這個過程中不能夠嘗試嗎?這為什麼要找文能部長?文能部長就是說希望在過去可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7783.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7807.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
在舊有的體制或者是他們的訓練過程認為說我們要執行要把這種傳統文化或者是這種制度存留下來但是無能部長能夠做的是不是思考說除了這個文化之外有沒有其他看看我們吧其他的國家我們的友邦如果美國有類似的做法的時候是不是可以參考如果不符合國情當然可以不用這個部分部長可不可以簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7808.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7833.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們有提到一個公開徵集解決方案的一個概念那如果說認為可以作為引進的一個基礎的話我們會在政府採購網這邊徵求這些相關的科技解決方案那如果有必要的話呢那我們現在有工業發展基金有委託的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7833.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7861.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那也許我們用公約發展基金來提供這些委託案那但是我想我們要的不是一個拿出來只是一篇報告我們要的就是立即能夠加以運用的一個一些案子所以我想那但是我們最後中科院如果最後做了系統整合之後那麼或者是構改以後或性能提升之後或者是相關已經可以進入了這個量產的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7863.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7864.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7888.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7897.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我認為不見得說什麼事情都一定是要學習其他國家那不同的部分還是可以來去考量一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7898.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7924.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
委員剛剛講的OTA這個我非常中會議員這邊非常認同那我也跟委員報告未來我們所有的新制的裝備在有了DIU之後其實它在第一架比如說無人機好了它量產的第一架和最後一架它中間一定是不斷的update不會是從頭到尾就是一樣這就是OTA大概的概念我們會不斷的引進新技術不斷的在整個量產的過程中間去讓它性能不斷的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7925.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7947.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好 謝謝那除了無人機啦我們這些高科技的這些軍用商規等等其實我們要思考就是說它DIU的過程中它在研擬的東西不是所謂只有高科技的應用有些高效率的應用就是說它可能是一個很簡單的一個組件一個零件它可以改變它整個這個生態的體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7948.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7977.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那不見得是一定就是所謂的高科技人才他可能是在其他領域生物界、工程界或者是在軟體工程等等這都有可能我說我們希望當我們在討論這一個DIU的時候最好是不要把它只限縮在於無人機AI因為我看到今天許多委員都不斷在強調這一點那其實DIU它所應用的所採購的技術不見得是武器還有技術甚至是還有流程管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7978.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7982.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
國防部將成立台版的DARPA這樣的說法是不是在這邊澄清一下台灣的這個DIU跟DARPA有什麼不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8007.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8027.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
大PAR是那種未來先進科技可能要花10年或20年的那一種叫大PAR它那個要美國這樣的國家才有辦法有那個能力跟資源去投入一個這麼長期然後這麼多的預算那我們沒有這樣子的一個資源所以我們應該是美國的這個DIU |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8031.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8044.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以美國不但有這個DAPA、DIU還有DIO這些相關很多,那我們覺得是他們的其中一個DIU的這個項目,也就是成熟的解決方案這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8045.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8066.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
對,國防部提到說是負責創新概念評估引進民間成熟科技所以這個剛才部長的這個答詢我覺得很好我想讓民間也知道說我們在做的不是重新發明輪子他們有這個高等的這個技術的研究我們也要有,不是這樣子的我們是希望能夠有更成熟的科技來進入我們的這個市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8067.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8092.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
但是在國防部的報告裡面有提到說市場大家都知道我們台灣的市場其實特別是軍工的市場相對的小除了這一個我們自己的採購之外其實還是有一定的局限在不然現在這些新創的這些東西如果可以賣出去的話全部都賣到全世界的市場那我想說跟美方的積極交流的部分你們的計畫是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8093.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8110.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我先講一下現在美國要求的資安認證就是CMMC嘛這一個體制之下那是在2019年有提出來那這一個網路安全成熟度的模型這個東西2019年提出來那過去是其實是分類的很 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8111.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8134.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
調整是從五個級別那現在是2.0百是三個級別那就是基礎防護、進階防護跟專家級防護我們要談的是當我們要進入美方的市場當我們要進入人家的國防產業鏈要接軌就是說我們不必要重新說我們要加入要加入但是如果我們最基本的資安的要求沒有達到的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8135.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8135.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
規格規制 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8144.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8166.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
臺灣不能夠我們自己做一版然後跟美國如果不通用的話那重新每次的這一種你申請的過程或者說你要進入他們的產業鏈的這種驗證的過程那就會非常長不知道部長在這方面我想請教一下現在FMC的2.0的架構出來之後我們現在已經積極的在跟美方做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8168.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8192.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
細節部分可能沒有辦法透露但是總之就是說有一個關鍵就是說到底在台灣這裡本地有沒有第三方的認證的一個機制那如果美國可以在這裡設立一個第三方認證的機制的話對於整個CMMC通過的認證所需要的費用會相當大幅度的減低這一點是很重要的我們現在正在跟他密切的在做研討當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8193.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8214.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
今年是2024年,2026年就全面實施,所以說我們是希望能夠先把這個強制的要求先釐清,這個沒有什麼機密性,就是你如果要進入他們的產業鏈,你就必須要達到這些東西,那這個可能未來要跟我們自己的……我現在只是說我們詳細的這個溝通狀況可能還是讓我有一點…… |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8215.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8237.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
對 我們跟他再積極的再討論評估謝謝部長 我還是在強調就是包含如果我們直接進入他們的DIU的這種網站進去的這種視覺化或者是可親近性就很高了因為他是要跟民間商業他要有效率的能夠那剛剛這邊也寫了嘛要說你的語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8238.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8257.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
說不是國防部的語言,國防部的語言我說聽不太懂,因為我們是來自民間的。說我們的語言,說民間的語言,那這樣子我們的產業才能夠進去美國的市場。那所以包含未來,你說你這個系統上面,網路上面的這種情報上面的分享,或者是說你要讓更多民間的產業進來的話,說他們的語言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8261.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8261.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
徐巧欣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8291.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8299.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
2020年行政院頒布了公務機關使用的產品包含軟體、硬體服務都禁止使用大陸廠牌的資訊、資通訊產品對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8322.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8342.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
剛才我們看到的是其實我們馬文君委員昭偉他也提到了貼牌的記錄器可以看到行車記錄器可以看到最近包含是逆變器、路由器、工業電腦然後包含華為產品還有我們的行車記錄器也都是內容裡面可能有中國大陸製的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8343.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8343.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
管制的標籤 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8356.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8374.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
報告委員這是我們的這個資訊產品的管制標籤對對它是你們資訊產品的管制標籤也就是說這一台行車紀錄器其實是屬於我們國防部所有好那我們在淘寶上面可以看到淘寶上面賣這一台一模一樣的規格只要台幣310塊而且呢它還是中國大陸製作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8378.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8394.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以300多塊我們是不是不僅用到的是中國貨還被廠商坑錢了這一點你們要去思考看看喔再來請問一下部長這一個消息被披露之後請問圖上的JP現在去哪裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8397.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8397.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那這個去哪了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8419.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8433.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
因為上面有貼管制標籤剛剛你們也說啦所以是國防部的財產啊我隨便一個人我可以去貼這種管制標籤嗎那就變為違法行為啊我現在要問這一批去哪啦因為這一批不是我們陸行部所採購的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8434.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8462.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那誰採購的呢?整個國防部委員好,我是連六市長連六市長我們上禮拜啊,這個委員您所在媒體上所揭露的這個行車記錄器的這個部分我們也做了一個全軍性的一個清查那目前我們是的確是有查到部分的行車記錄器這是這一台嗎?有沒有這一台?我現在先問這一台嗎?對,報委員有沒有這一台?我們要回去再查證已經都多少天了,你們還沒有查到 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8462.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8480.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我們針對大陸的這些目前所製的這些行車記錄器我們是已經有先下架了這邊要先跟委員報告多少台下架了目前下架我們還有一些還沒有查完的是內建在裡面的這個目前下架了多少台目前下架大概是800部800部啊對好那這個還沒找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8483.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8502.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我跟委員報告這一部我們當初是沒有看到這個資訊但是我們下架的裡面有沒有含這一部我們要回去查證要回去查證請給我答案好嗎是的因為呢我們買的通常啦我不去講說是跟這個我們辦公室聯絡的這一台通常我們買大概兩千多塊錢啦通常的價格是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8503.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8529.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
結果人家淘寶上賣310塊我們這不是很明顯被廠商坑了嗎我們還用了中國貨然後又被廠商坑錢這是很不得了的事情耶再來你們要去清查喔這一款等一下上面那張這一款是不是在消息披露之後有人員去把它轉移到了輕型戰車的輪速輪車上使用可不可以去搜尋這個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8532.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8554.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
報告委員：你們有沒有查過了這個洗車紀錄器它並不是這個紀錄器配附在這部對它是領了用了領了用了我知道但請問有沒有這一台它後來有沒有被轉移到輕型戰術輪車上使用你們有沒有查如剛剛連六次長跟委員說明的只要是錄製的我們查到了目前全面都下降那有沒有查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8556.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8576.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員說的這個這個是不是現在我們下架的裡面我們下去求證之後對然後你要去查什麼不會去轉用這一批如果他們還沒有被查到有沒有被移到了輕型戰術輪車上用領用的方式去處理這個你要去查可以嗎是的好可以齁好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8579.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8604.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那回到剛才講的這個護唱公司齁這個護唱公司110年的時候總計劃將近300萬的重酬案我們看一下他的官網裡面喔他的官網裡面呢其實寫的跟行車紀錄其實沒有什麼關係的在下一張其實剛才馬昭偉已經告訴大家了他們彼此之間的關係由易坤來進口許章月桃他們是母子的關係報關進口之後供貨給護唱護唱再投標給陸軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8608.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8609.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以我們買的時候我們都不用查倉 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8639.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8642.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這一批我們在當初這個110年所採購的總共是1321個那這一塊的話當初的是基本產商資格限定並沒有說他必須要自製 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8655.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8673.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那你們沒有要自治那你要如何檢查他是不是MIT或MIC那我們有廠商的資格還有這個相關的一個所以他說的算那還有我沒有去查查因為當初的時候是1325我們當初的時候有這個旅院的小組最後最後對商品檢驗對商品檢驗通通都有那所以你們去過這裡看過也去過這裡看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8676.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8691.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
因為他沒有在那裏製造,他沒有在這個場地製造他沒有在這個場地製造,那你知道他在那裏製造嗎?他當初說他的交貨地點,我們台灣還有馬來西亞台灣?台灣的哪一家?所以他的前面是誰交貨給他?誰交貨給護唱,護唱再賣給你們?你們在兩千多萬的行車記錄器裏面你們有沒有問? |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8700.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8727.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個是300萬這個議題裡面是1321部是300萬好 你有沒有問嘛我就問說你今天跟護唱嘛有沒有這件事嘛有那護唱你也知道了不是由護唱製作的嘛他是進口商嘛他是貿易商嘛那誰賣給他的你有在意這件事嗎有去查嗎那如果你沒有去查你怎麼知道他給你的東西不是貼牌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8729.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8730.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
部長,被列黑名單記錄的我們國防部來跟他們採購你覺得合理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8756.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8782.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
跟委員報告我剛剛已經說了如果我們查到的這個結果比如說像有地址或者是有這一些剛剛講的母子或這些關係的話我想我下去我會來檢討我們整個採購你們會檢討我給你看這件事情多嚴重來採購的時候採購拒絕往來生肖日是110年的4月8號看得到嗎右邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8785.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8804.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
陸軍後勤指揮部採購的時候是什麼本案於110年4月8號下定你把它列為拒絕廠商的黑名單的同時你跟人家下定有這種道理有這種事情你們都不知道回答一下好不好所有人都不講話是什麼意思啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8810.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8810.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8831.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8850.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
你們沒有解約相關的一些方式嗎?不可能吧不要騙我們沒有看過政府採購法欸我說他4月8號被列為黑名單你們的報告單上面寫說在4月8號下訂這跟國人交代的過去嗎?部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8853.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8879.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
您是新任的部長,我不跟你追究,但是這個事情你有沒有覺得應該要查,而且很嚴重我下去回來了解是吧,這是很嚴重的事情吧你都被列拒絕廠商了,然後你還當天跟他下定代表你們整個國防部裡面你們前後你們是搞不清楚狀況,或者是有人在貪贓枉法我不想直接去定義說有人貪贓枉法,但是這件事情非常的奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8880.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8900.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我想這個案子竟然在110年那個時候那我想我們就把這個案子調出來重新檢視一下好再來我們跟陸軍在詢問的時候我們得到的來的送給我們看的食品是長這樣跟我們剛剛來的那台不一樣來請問為什麼給我們看的所有的包含你們給我們的照片上面都沒有管制標籤 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8904.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8919.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這一台這個在禮拜一的晚上1800到委員辦公室說明的時候啊因為這一台基本上目前是一個備品並沒有說它是有標籤在盒子上面盒子上不用貼在上面因為目前這一台它別台都要貼在上面這一台不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8919.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8921.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
請問一下為什麼前面的要貼在就是我們要貼在的是行車記錄器像這個不用嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8936.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8937.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我最後要講一下你們所給我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8963.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8982.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這份清單上面關於當初這個你們的計劃清單就是最後決標的這一份因為抱歉我時間不夠我沒有放在上面你們有給我們一份是這個行車紀錄器它的計劃清單但是呢我們有拿到一份舊的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8983.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9008.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
還沒有決標的時候的計劃清單他上面寫得很清楚本採購屬於經濟部投審會公告具敏感性或國安資安疑慮業務之範疇的服務採購廠商不得為大陸地區廠商第三地區廠商含陸資成分廠商及經濟部投審會公告的資訊服務業者都有公開都不可以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9008.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9032.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
但是你們在最後決標裡面你們怎麼寫的你知道嗎我唸給你聽你們最後決標的時候寫說本案禁止使用中國大陸地區產品或僱用中國大陸地區人士等等的那可以終止契約為非屬採購清單主體之周邊配件如電池、電源、線材等因無違密顧慮且產地 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9035.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9059.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
限制取得不易顧不在此限我最後詢問一下我們的顧部長你們在合約上面寫這樣你們在最後的這個清單上寫這樣你覺得合理嗎需要我再念一次嗎如果我剛剛講不清楚的話我剛剛聽起來的話應該是說他沒有涉及自通訊產品的這個部對所以他的意思是說這個裡面的配件、電池、電源、線材 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9060.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9079.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
可以不在此限意思就是說我們使用中國大陸製的零件的行車記錄器是可以的請問是可以的嗎問題是現在的標案應該是都一律禁止大陸製對啊但你們上面是這樣寫啊部長我需要拿給你看嗎這是你們給我的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9080.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9105.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這之前的還是之前的?110年嘛 對不對所以你們要去清查後續因為後來規定改了嘛改了之後你們還在繼續用嘛所以你們應該要去清查我不管是後來才改的規定還是怎麼樣的但既然規定已經改了你們是不是過往的你們就要全面去清查說有沒有類似的這個情況如果有的話要下架嘛部長您同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9106.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9121.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我看我去清查一下剛剛委員講了110年的這個個案然後另外就是說看什麼時候去改這個相關的這些規定部長我再跟你講一次我再跟你講更清楚一點在原本的在原本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9122.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9149.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
另外一個還沒有決標的計劃清單上面他很明確的寫到說不可以他是屬於資安一律範疇所以不可以使用大陸相關的這個用品但是你到了最後決標的時候那幾條被拿掉了部長如果有需要我事後可以給你看資料因為我今天時間不夠所以是不是最後因為我時間已經到了超過很久了部長多少時間給你可以完成全部的清查給我們一個時間吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9151.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9167.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
您是說所有整件事情整個行車記錄器的事情包含馬昭偉剛剛問的包含剛剛那個管制新單包含這個包含是我剛剛所說的一切你們需要多久的時間可以查出來查明真相至少給我們一個書面報告做說明吧包委員我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9172.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9200.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
下去的我們做一個確實的把案情釐清和想查是不是兩個禮拜跟國防部報告謝謝委員好 謝謝剛剛提供給徐小溪委員的那一台沒有查是因為你們只查行政車輛沒有查戰術車輛那相關的規定錄製的產品很早就有規定了這個部分沒關係你們到時候一邊查完以後再 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9202.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9202.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
主席好 有請顧部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9231.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9231.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9247.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9269.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們是絕對支持國防自主根據國防法22條自主為國軍獲得武器系統優先的策略那麼這次今天講到這個新成立的這個在整平室底下的DIU這個單位我們提出了從根據您的報告內容我們從前提原則目標方法手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9270.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9288.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
提出一個建議重點就是國防產業的供應鏈透過廠商資格與級別認證尤其是滴滴要確實以及保密協定甚至在解約以後他能不能把我們共同研發的成果拿去外銷或是轉到其方這個在我們的所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9291.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9315.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
在簽署協定、協約裡面要能夠律定清楚那這樣子就說我們信得過這些廠商確實跟中科院能夠完整的合作那另外一個建議國防產業院的關鍵單位必須要全程參與我講關鍵技術並不是因為民間有了我就不要我們很怕未來發生過產業它出走它斷鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9316.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9338.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
可能會脫鉤斷鏈那中科院這中間就產生一個gap所以我們合作的構想我們以美軍所講的第一個是adaptable可以運用第二個是可以負責accountable信得過第三個是affordable那這三個前提下我們來支持這個DIU的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9340.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9366.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
過去在2019年我們國防就是科技部當時科技部現在國防部已經成立一個5年50億的學研中心那麼建立技術包括臺大、清大、交大、成大、中興、中山等這裡面有很多就是參與所謂無人系統包括無人機、水下的還有一些反制的東西這裡面就涉及到了很多的是通訊裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9368.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9389.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以我的建議就是在我們這個單位新成立以後．可以有整評師或中科院．同時邀請這七所國立大學的學研中心共同來參與．提供他們過去這三年到四年中間研發的結果．用這個經驗用他們來對民間的廠商做對口．比較方便前面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9391.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9418.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我們講的陳冠群委員講了所以要用民間的話來講話我現在是擔心民間的廠商講的話我們中科院在他的規格書面上他不見得聽得懂所以會有認知的落差而不是誰對誰錯所以用這個新成立的單位來召集一個會議把七所國立大學他們都是學研中心都是國防學研中心都有涉及到水下水上地面無人包括通訊裝備這是一個很好的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9420.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9437.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們借重了美國成功的經驗在下面成功的因素但美國的成功因素並不代表是完全適合我們所以我們應該怎麼做呢創新小組創新新概念要站立發展相輔相成那居民科技合一創新運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9438.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9459.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
最主要就是中科院跟民間現在要有一個對口單位當然在整平市這個底下我建議這個底下的新成立人員你必須要有幾個有工程背景甚至在實驗室做過因為你這個TRL3幾乎實驗室的過程因為民間發展技術很快它很多是外面導入的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9460.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9489.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
現在的無人機系統尤其是一個主流趨勢我們講的無人包括空中的、地面的、水下的甚至這些國立大學他買了為人系統在做學研他們還要去向這個速發部就是以前NCC去申請頻道評官我也曾經跟這些無人機的製造廠商參加研討會他們交給國軍的是載台尤其是數量很大的這種輕型載台基本上是消耗型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9491.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9506.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
在暫時避免操作手在第一線偵查牌甚至搜索班都不要出去了無人把畫面傳回來至於剛剛您講的AI技術當然我們講說Main in the loop, on the loop, out of the loopAI要結合ROE |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9508.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9525.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
要授權那這裡面要double check俄烏戰爭用無人機非常方便城市相距30里100里不是烏克蘭就是俄國看了就打但是以哈戰爭你就發現了無人機的效益就沒那麼大了雖然導入AI |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9526.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9549.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
在一個大樓裡面有哈馬斯兩個人以色列對不起就炸彈飛彈打了40個老百姓一起死這個時候AI的效益就不太容易發揮那我們防衛作戰我們希望在拒止在海岸線以外所以在中科院發展出來的或是美方提供的中長城的做預警這個效益是很大但是屬於這種消耗型的國產型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9551.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9575.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
當然它的成本會比中科院低我們也接受這個我這邊提出建議的所有的廠商都提出了他提供你的是載台載具通信頻道頻寬傳輸速度我們聯六啊通知次長室跟這個自通電軍還有這個所謂的速發部啊NCC啊要去談我國軍能夠獲得多少頻寬多少頻道如果在暫時 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9577.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9593.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們國內的一般民間的通訊的比方講中華電信如果中斷了誰來提供這個補充即便我們跟這個英國的OneWeb簽了有700個地面站或是三個國外台但是能夠分給國軍使用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9594.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9622.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
在這邊不必講細部一定要提早定義就是說你有這麼多載台並不代表這麼多載台可以同步使用因為你的頻率控制台受限另外一個就是民用、商用、商規軍用不同的廠商交出來的準則教範一定要標準化這個東西是必須要統一的不然我們沒有實驗編裝你這些小東西都是給營機以下的操作手續單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9623.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9644.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
人員不會在前線犧牲但是你如果要這些東西要回送feedback到上一層或是上兩層長官去看他的判斷是不一樣的所以共同圖像、通訊頻道評判跟無人載胎的整合是我們發展一個很重要的一個過程跟手段這個要提早作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9646.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9662.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
剛才這個整評師並沒有講TRL的裡面的分工這個我們可以把裡面細節分工圖提供做參考不是光說1234到9做水平切割這裡面有很多是必須要重疊性質的那麼這個東西呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9664.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9691.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我想在一個新成立單位他除了有專案管理這個合約管理最主要就是要有實驗室做過這種經驗的人一起參與這個計劃提供參考那麼最後的具體建議我們TR要是做國防科技驗證的門檻檢視民間公司的技術或專利實況那至於能不能跟中科院做完整的整合這個我們還要有摸索中科院有很多過去的計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9692.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9699.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
承擔了很大的責任但不是中科院責任是因為軍總跟軍總跟中科院簽的是agreement |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9699.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9718.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
MOU．並不代表做需要改變．結果中科院前面這個時間．三、五年的研究成果．就白做了．就重新另起需求．這個將來都要定義清苦．中科院過去在三彈一金．關鍵開發系統整合經驗．我相信在DIU的指導下．將民間專業導入系統開發．會促成國防自主的發展． |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9723.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9739.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
關鍵技術發展從來沒有說一帆風順一定要接受失敗而且要有重置性絕對不是水平啊就是說劃線切割我把這個東西提供參考下面請這個部長或者是整評師長您來回答一下或中科院來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9741.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9769.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
跟委員報告剛剛您講到TIL備變水準未來中科院和DIU中間最重疊的部分在TIL6當DIU引進一個新技術中科院在現有的關鍵技術的備變水準之上我必須按TIL6去發展出來我的原型模型這個原型模型展示給軍種看讓軍種去確認是不是符合他的作戰需求如果符合的話我們再進入工程發展的7到9的階段但是就像我剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9770.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9781.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
就算在進入工程發展7和8的時候有新的技術我就會不斷的去修正我的原型模型大概未來我們跟DIU的借階會在TIL6的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9783.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9802.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
過去因為是有些美方技術不轉移不輸出或這個武器根本不賣所以中科院等於說從基礎開始研發但這個累積的成果不要中斷掉那麼能夠美國提供不管是軍售商售或者我們國內廠商有這個能力縮短這個研發時間進速整合這是我們是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9803.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9827.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
人才的培養還是很重要我特別要建議那尤其是在DIU裡面對專案管理還要加上一部分有科技背景做過實驗室的那可以他不必做主觀他提供一個客觀的這個建言這個是比較重要我相信我們今天在座裡面在美國實驗室待過的可能可能今天可能沒有人在場要了解到這個怎麼樣把實驗室的概念轉換到 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9829.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9838.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
變成一個可製造、可整合．最後變成Deliverable．可以交出的貨．而且這個東西還是初期產品．就像你剛剛講的．要不斷升級的． |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9841.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9863.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
再回應委員的意見就是我上禮拜花了一個禮拜的時間從中科院所有的研發人員裡面挑了兩個人一個是無人機的一個是AI的這兩個都是年輕的工程師都有博士的學位也是我們中科院未來研發很核心的關鍵的年輕人那我這兩個人支援到DIU就是要協助DIU有相關的工程背景去一起去審視現有的技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9865.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9891.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
補充一下就是因為現在七個國立大學的學研中心禮拜一才李世光前經濟部長他在召集會議還在談他們研發的成果不要跟我們做平行浪費掉了那麼整評師或中科院可以請他們一起學研的中心把他們研發成果導入就來support你那配合國內的產業的技術這樣做整合可以更節省時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9892.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9918.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
有有,學研中心的預算比較不多啦,但是我們對學研中心的發展,我們納入這個平台是沒有問題的。跟委員報告,我們由我們的國科會配合剛剛委員所指導的七大學研中心,我們一年都編十億,我們跟國科會跟學研中心,那我們會遵從委員的指導,把學研中心的他們研究的成果打入我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9919.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9943.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
整合到我們的DIU的一個平台、一個系統裡面來統一運用以上報告因為DIU這個整合是非常重要本席站在這邊也支持我們也提出一個建議就是說希望在這個案子整合人才培養看到這個整個這個國內工合還有科技整合的進展我們希望這個整平市每三個月來做一個提報 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9948.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9973.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
委員指導就是我們未來三個月就跟您去做一次提報那我們的創新小組一定就是希望能夠引進民間的成熟科技在軍事領域做創新的運用那在這個部分您剛才指導的有關於在過程當中能夠引進有一些相關工程背景、科技背景還有法律專業的這些人才我們都會納入一起來提供我們做相關的參考和諮詢以上謝謝,謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9978.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9980.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
請部長還有軍醫局蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10018.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10025.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
國防部主管下,除了有很多軍職人員以外,還有很多文職及約聘僱人員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10027.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10045.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以,其實不管他的職務或身份,那我們基於希望有一個起碼的勞動權益保障的立場那,譬如大家是期待說,你只要有勞動事實,就可以實際實領那這也是被認為其實是最低的底線,部長同不同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10054.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10071.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
這段時間我一直受到陳情我們軍醫局底下其實有很多的醫療人員那他可能不是只是醫生或護士、護理師比方說像是他們分析血液、尿液的這個醫檢師也負責X光的放射師或者是藥師 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10072.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10096.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那他們也會有夜間輪班的需求他們也要值夜班所以他們的勞動的事實非常非常的明確但如果你是一個醫檢師如果你是在教育部下面的教學醫院或者是在退輔會下的容醫或者是如果你在衛福部下的部立醫院上班的話我們要恭喜他們可以拿到足額的報酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10097.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10116.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但如果這些醫檢師他如果在軍醫院上班很抱歉他的報酬是無法足而領取的我們來看一下數字部長你看一下數字如果今天是一個醫檢師大夜班他值大夜一個月25天台大的基數是比較好有1萬7部立跟榮總是1萬2軍醫院也是1萬2但 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10122.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10146.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
很慘的事情是布里軍醫院的醫檢師職大業只要是夜班夜班的這個費用就沒有辦法施領他會被打折甚至打到85折賴清德總統說軍工就要加薪3%但這個我們一吃就吃人家15%而這種陋習我跟部長報告其實已經超過10年了那為什麼會出現這個狀況很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10149.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10169.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為我們軍醫下面的醫管單位他的夜班費的請領的方式自己吝嗇了一個請領的方式是要所用三節獎金來請領不像剛剛說的其他主管機關下面的醫院喔他們都是可以按月來領取依照績效獎金來領取我們自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10171.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10191.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
訂了一個用三節獎金領取所以一年就領三次但問題是三節獎金對不起有一個上限所以只要你的夜班職業班的狀況超過這個上限超過的部分就算你沒發生過就算你沒發生過所以一個醫檢師常常一個月算下來幾乎少了兩千塊以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10193.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10213.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這就是長年的狀況我要問部長部長你覺得你聽到這個狀況我相信你也是第一次聽到但這個狀況你覺得有沒有要改進的空間或你的立場如何各位報告是不是他有兩種一個是夜班費跟另外一個是疫情的獎助金 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10214.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10230.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
對那我現在講的都是夜班費如果是夜班費的話那麼夜班費應該是他有實際的值班那就我們就足額的發給那如果依照這樣子來來發給的話那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10232.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10251.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
只要沒有超過行政院的公立醫療機構人員獎那個發給要點的話應該是可以足以發給的在這個部分部長你講到一個重點其實是因為我們相比於在國防部下軍醫局相對其他的部會我們現在是用依請獎金的方式來發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10252.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10279.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以是用三節獎金來發放所以就會遇到三節獎金上限的問題那我們一直跟國防部來要求這是一個不合理的狀況因為有很多的醫檢師他們的工會都來陳情明明他們該給他們卻都沒有給他們而且這不是限短期喔這已經搞了十年了喔但對不起軍醫局不理就是不理不理就是不理所以我今天不得不我要在這個地方部長在這邊局長在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10281.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10308.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我們要不要改變這個狀況我覺得這是最基本的吧跟委員報告一下因為我們的這個疫情獎金的發放是經過行政院核定的所以如果我們的疫情獎金有一個上限如果整個要修的話就變成整個所有軍醫的軍醫獎金全部都要再修那我們這個陳情其實我們不是不理但是因為會有 最終會有 局長不要推給行政院啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10309.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10332.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
不是不是 跟委員報告最近會有這個問題是因為有一些軍醫院因為他的業績績效很好所以才會到上限如果沒有到上限他其實都可以實領到但是因為會超過上限所以他的總額因為有一個上限所以才會大家覺得說好像是他的夜班費被排擠到了其實 局長不是好像啊就是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10332.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10360.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
他夜班的勞動事實就是消失了啊不是好像啊我們會按照委員的指導我們會把以後的我們的計算方式就是福利金的計算方式會把夜班會優先計算夜班會算完以後再來算其他的福利金局長很簡單嘛我們就比照其他的醫院他們都是按月的發放不是一定要搞到疫情獎金的三節獎金才能發放嘛每個月做多少很清楚都可以看在眼前我就可以拿多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10361.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10383.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
沒有人要去多要只是給他們應得的每個月就按方法反正別人都可以做到為什麼其實軍院做不到呢報告委員其實我們每個月計算也是每個月在計算但是你是三節才人家領一次嘛所以人家是算下來以後發現這跟我每個月該領的不一樣嘛有出入嘛甚至可能少了兩千塊每個月少了兩千塊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10384.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10407.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
另外跟委員報告其實我們的會醫護人員的聘僱人員的總薪資都比其他醫院還高都比其他醫院高你這態度是不對的嘛沒有不是這個意思不是說我今天待遇比別人高我待遇有沒有真的比別人高這是另外一回事你明明說要給人家的績效獎金夜班費講好的你就是沒有給嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10408.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10434.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這跟你什麼其他比別人高什麼關係?報告委員我們會按照您的指導業班會以後我們的疫情獎金業班會都會單獨優先計算不是我說第一個不是優先計算我就問你說能不能夠承諾一定足額發放按月足額發放就像他們在其他部會的醫檢師、X光檢驗師、放射師他們可以受到的待遇一樣嗎?可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10434.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10462.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
可以嗎這是可以承諾的事情是是是好那多少時間可以把它改過來兩個月我們現在已經在做了兩個月可不可以把它改過來應該是可以兩個月之後我們這些非醫護人員的夜班費就可以按月足額拿到沒有問題按月這個我們還要經由行政院因為整個要休要一段時間如果要休你不要推給行政院你們把方案拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10462.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10484.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
行政院會盡快,我們可以來跟行政院來講,要盡快合定,行政院會同意你們這個把醫護人員的夜班費給吃掉的方法嗎?報告委員,我們會按照委員的指導,我們會每個月單獨來計算,阿也會跟行政院來做,可不可以每個月直接每個月就發放,就像其他,就像其他的主管單位的醫院一樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10484.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10502.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
就比照嘛這這麼簡單的事情報告委員我們因為我們會跟行政院做這個溝通希望每個月來發放但是因為它整體牽涉到整個要修我們還要一段時間那這樣好不好一個月後給我方案兩個月承諾把它改好可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10503.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10526.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們盡快一個月給我方案兩個月把它改好是是可以嗎可以至少一定要要求要足額發放可以足額領取這最基本的吧是這不是優先喔是足額領取喔我不管你優先不優先喔就是足額不可以少一塊錢是我們按照委員的指導來做好那接下來我要請數發部卓市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10535.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10554.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這樣我不知道你有沒有看到上週其實有一位美國一個亞太議題的專家他在外交家的雜誌上面有發表了一篇專文這篇專文其實又談到了台灣的海欄的問題那這篇文章他談了很多內容他最後有一個很重要的建議這個建議就是他認為台灣應該要將電纜認定為關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10559.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10588.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
為什麼今天還是要跟圈市長來討論這件事情我跟你說我已經像收集七龍珠一樣我已經問過陳建仁院長問過國土辦問過國安局問過NCC問過海巡署也問過中華電信大家都說他們同意也覺得應該要把臺馬的海嵐列為CI但現在一直態度曖昧的是數法部市長你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10589.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10599.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不管是國外不管是國內大家都認為臺馬海岸的重要性尤其過去被破壞的程度尤其是現在大家看到像在聯合力艦行動裡面他們就是針對我們的離島的攻擊應該要列為C.I這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10608.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10627.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
跟委員報告就是說一個基礎建設能不能列為關鍵就是我們能不能把它列為CI那有幾個要件市長我時間不夠我跟你說在之前所有的質詢裡面我們都把他的這個要件包括他的定義全部都拿出來了所以這些所有其他部會的人都同意他應該是CI |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10628.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10654.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對,但是其他部會可能沒有我們清楚比如說臺馬海嵐跟臺京海嵐對我來說臺馬海嵐它的微波備援是充足的但是其他的海嵐可能微波備援不是充足的市長,我覺得不一定是充足的之前有講過你們是用了微波但是這個微波如果在緊急的時候或者是遇到被封鎖的時候我們可能要把頻寬優先交給 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10658.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10675.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
軍方來使用到時候還是不是充足的這是打上一個大大的問號包括微波電源它的頻寬跟我們一般的海嵐的頻寬就是有很大的差別包括你的養護包括你的管理上面的作業都跟一般列為CIA的是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10676.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10704.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
跟委員報告,微波的部分呢軍方的微波跟我們的微波是分開的那我沒辦法對軍方的微波發表任何意見但是如果您到微波站去看就會發現在我們現在中華電線的微波並跟軍方是分開的但是海纜的確裡面有部分的部分的海纜是提供軍方使用的所以次長現在意思是數發部還是不願意列為CI要不要列為CI每年會 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10705.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10724.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
每年會依程序準時在辦理我第一次質詢陳建仁院長是在去年3月已經經過17個月了你們的評估是怎樣就我知道國土辦也希望列入NCC也希望列入行政院也希望列入大家都希望列入國安局也覺得該列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10725.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10741.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
只有你們覺得我們沒有覺得不應該列入但是我們是認為你要按照規定的辦法市長就是你要列為CI是他沒有任何備援的時候不是不只是這樣子吧列為CI的定義不是只有他完全沒有備援吧我們要不要來看一下CI的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10742.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10755.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
CIA的定義不是沒有被援才能夠被列入CIA按照你這邊寫的它有分數跟重要性是那我們就是根據它的這樣我做一個建議我自己覺得我沒有要求所有的國內海岸都要列入但 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10757.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10783.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
臺馬海嵐或跟離島之間的海嵐我覺得有沒有一些方式可以把他的特殊性給標示出來我們在通盤檢討中我們也會納入考慮但是我沒辦法在這邊承諾你特定的海嵐是不是在下次會列為西亞因為就像你剛剛列的他每一條他有他的分數跟評估的方式那根據分數跟評估方式市長那我要跟你說這件事情不是我第一次講我們已經提了17個月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10783.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10812.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
如果我們評估一條海欄要搞17個月搞不定態度還猶豫不定我會對於關鍵基礎設施CIA我們會對於這個會對我們政府、國安的態度我們有很大的存疑啊我們評估是每年來評估所以並沒有猶豫不定那今年要評估到什麼時候會按照國土辦的程序來辦會評估到什麼時候按照國土辦的程序那個主秀再給我一分鐘會什麼時候我現在不知道要回去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10813.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10839.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那我...是不是問國土辦?沒有,評估西安美良...為什麼你可以用說你現在不知道這個態度?這不是你們主管的嗎?那我請那個任性事來回答評估西安美良...那時間的關係齁...這不是你們主管的嗎?你們...你們討論完以後再提供給委員相...相關的資訊...市長我這個態度我沒有辦法接受啊因為...市長我覺得這個態度我沒有辦法接受你要不然你給我一個明確的時間我跟你說因為西安美兩年才評估一次你17個月沒有得到答案是正常的嗎?市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10843.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10849.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
你確定要這個回答嗎?我手上的資料就是這樣嘛所以當這17個月裡面發生了聯合力艦行動當他們在維馬組 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10854.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10855.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
市長 市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10887.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10887.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
接下來請鄭天才委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10918.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10938.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
主席、各位委員,有請部長請部長是,政委部長好,辛苦了今天的主題是一個非常重要的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10941.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10951.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這裡面特別提到為了因應、為了適應戰場變化以及建立強韌嚇阻戰力,國防部參考美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10952.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10978.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
的國防創新單位的作法在今年2月1號當時部長還沒有上任成立國防創新小組負責創新概念評估及引進民間成熟科技協助提升整體防衛能量當然我不清楚美國的國防創新單位當然國防部應該要去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10981.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10997.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那我們看這個你的報告裡面國防科技研發體系把它列了三個民間學術機構中科研創新小組這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10999.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11027.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
然後國防創新小組說主要任務有創新概念發展戰略需求確認民間技術產能調研公開徵集與方案評估導入建設稠厚我們看這個國防部的報告裡面你現在把這個創新國防創新小組放在可能部長還不是那麼清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11029.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11032.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
放在這個整平思：國防部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11034.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11063.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
很多師裡面的其中一個整評師部長回去再看一下整評師的出入規程裡面有寫整評師負責哪些業務都有寫然後成員包括軍職、文職、聘僱人員然後七分創新作戰發展創產業條件評估軍林科技運用三組執行各項工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11065.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11092.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
最主要就是說這一個這麼重要的這麼重要的為了適應戰場變化建立強韌嚇阻戰力參考美國的這個國防創新單位然後成立這個國防創新小組然後現在是放在整平室這個我是只是請部長回去評估啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11094.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11112.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
請部長回去評估到底他能不能達成這樣的一個創新國防創新小組設置在整平思能不能達成原來的目的這個請部長回去好好的去評估因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11115.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11142.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們國家本來就有國防部之下本來就設了行政法人國家中商科學研究院就設在那裏提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍用通用技術設了這個國科院國科院他的業務範圍很廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11145.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11165.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
然後呢國科院的董事長就是國防部長然後還包含了這個經濟部的次長國科會的副主委當然的董事所以他這個是一個非常完備的然後一個這麼重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11167.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11185.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
國防創新小組然後再一個整評師就我這個三十年的老公務員然後也學法的跟部長當然我比你差很多啦這樣的一個我是懷疑啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11186.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11209.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我是懷疑他能夠達成當初這麼重大的一個任務所以這個部分就請部長回去再跟相關的包括國科院、國家中商科學研究院一起去討論包括其他的部會、國科會一起去討論能不能應該怎麼樣去推動好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11212.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11215.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
整評師的這些君子人員或是聘僱人員到底他們的專業如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11233.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11255.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我只是跟委員報告一點就是說委員看的是一個階層的問題我看的是一個任務導向的問題那不管他設置在哪裡那如果他的這個任務能夠直接受我直接的督管然後完成他相關的任務這是我比較看重的不管他設在什麼樣的一個階層 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11257.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11284.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
也許你是對的,也許國防部是對的,我沒有做定論,我只是讓你回去評估啦,好不好。是,好,了解,好,謝謝。我沒有去評論,我讓你去評估。好,這個上次,這個部長上任之後,我第一次跟你質詢的時候,就再次跟我過去質詢過前任的部長,也質詢過這個行政院院長,軍,精良的軍備, |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11285.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11313.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
要有專精的國軍這是我一直強調要有精良的軍備更要有專精的國軍但是我們一直缺少、缺法你看這個志願役不是在去年服兩年然後7000人離營像這個我們看這個志願役的實領的薪資二等兵三萬六、一等兵三萬八、上等兵三萬九 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11315.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11342.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
跟我們的勞工的平均薪資四萬六千多差很多但我如果我們從上士官跟軍官去做比較一樣一樣所以這個部分我們的這個能力真的是一直所以我因為主席站起來了這個部長我還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11345.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11370.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
再次的請你回去再好好的去評估這些我們的軍人也說習慣了反正就是這個人事行政總署或行政院而定很多東西都是要爭取的啦以前跟現在又不一樣啦所以這個部分請部長也回去去評估啦好不好是是好謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11376.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11391.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請數位部政次跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11393.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11407.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
國防部顧部長鄭次先好了好請數位部好鄭次剛剛對於洪森翰委員的那個質詢我個人強烈的建議您可能需要好好的在質詢台上再一次的面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11408.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11430.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
雖然我不是很清楚洪森漢委員的質詢的內容不過您剛剛的態度已經超越了一個專業的部長或者是一個專業您現在代表的是數位部所應該回應的問題什麼叫做17個月沒有答沒有得到回應很正常您有沒有覺得剛剛的質詢的態度是錯誤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11434.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11450.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
報告委員我只是在描述國土辦在核定關鍵基礎設施是每兩年評估一次那如果洪森漢委員在提出提出他的意見的時候是在這兩次的中間那在下一次核定之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11451.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11472.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們絕對會重視所有立委的意見但是在下一次核定之前這一個期程並不會因為有立委的意見而能夠提前因為關鍵技術設施的核定它有既定的期程並不會因為新聞媒體的報導或是立委的質詢然後能夠更改這一個期程的設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11473.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11492.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好你現在回應我覺得聽起來就能夠理解您帶著您的專業給予了正確的答案我知道您來自於民間剛剛我也看了一下您過去在交通大學那您也學有專長過去也曾經都在我們的公部門當中也都有擔任相關的這個職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11494.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11514.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那麼希望您現在是帶著數位部因為您今天是代表部長因為早上我才跟黃部長一起出席了資安大聯盟的記者會所以說我知道他今天也在出席活動大家都對於你們的專業給予肯定但是進來了這樣的一個行政團隊之後不要忘了您也代表的是您自己的發言喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11514.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11515.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
主席有請顧部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11551.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11575.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
是 另外一位好部長好 這個我其實在上個月的時候質詢過了就是有關於中共的滲透又或者是說我不一定要認為是中共的滲透啦就是對於國軍的滲透不論是給予資料的滲透是利誘這些其實都一直實質的存在那這個當時你也看過了不過我要告訴您的是我質詢了一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11576.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11591.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這樣的廣告依舊存在因為我剛剛時間有限我直接跳到我下一個部分就是曾經有研究報導指出對於國軍的滲透現在透過社群的平台有裸拍所謂裸拍是叫國軍直接就秀出他堅實的肌肉 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11594.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11608.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
然後這個照片上來之後可以得到一定的片酬但是重點是要給軍人證再來低利貸款這這個前面剛剛就有另外一個是高額徵稿這個徵稿呢一篇文章 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11608.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11633.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
大概可以拿到五萬塊但重點都在於他必須要有軍人證這三種樣態是不是透過社群平台在做一種滲透我想問部長你們有沒有掌握因為我也必須強調這樣的文章他早在2023年的時候就被揭露只是這個樣態是持續存在而國軍到底有沒有相關的官位在注意這樣的事情呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11635.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11664.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我想像相關這樣子的一個就是說我們要對國軍做好這個相關的這些保防的這些教育那應該是說如果有這樣子的一種當然一方面這個網路平台像這樣子的部分那要如何讓他能夠下架這是一件事情但是國軍說要跟他拿軍人證這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11664.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11675.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那他就要有一個警覺對這樣的一個警覺性的一個存在我們要不斷的去宣導這樣子的警覺性除了警覺性的存在之外部長其實我比較關注當然因為你現在剛接任確實是很多的問題那麼都存在也可能需要您一樣一樣的來關注但這個是2023年當時相關的期刊論文跟報導就已經出現了所以我其實比較想了解請你回去了解的是那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11692.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11719.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這樣的樣態他現在存在之外那是個案還是說其實這些年來有一些相關的防制的方式包括了我剛剛講到其實我為什麼會拿最前面的這一個我一個月之前我6月6號質詢我要強調的是他們到現在都還掛在社群平台當中今天數位部也在喔我要做一個提醒就是不論是金管會有關於詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11721.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11744.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
的這種不實的廣告金管會我曾經質詢過那麼金管會透過數位部他其實跟這些社群平台是有所謂的綠色通報一旦通報馬上下架農委會也有因為我也曾經質詢過有關於一般的民眾偷渡一些中國或其他地方的種子就直接放在臉書上販售這個是違反我們農業部相關的法規那麼今天數位部也在這裡我想問兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11751.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11767.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
就是那國防部跟數位部之間有沒有所謂的綠色通道可以要求Meta、Google或Line來做一個下架如果沒有那麼是不是可以現在來做一個建立因為我要強調的這些樣態都是從哪裡來都是從社群平台去招攬到現在我都還可以找到類似的這樣的不論是要求軍人裸拍還是給低利貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11778.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11807.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
又或者是高額徵稿甚至於現在還有另外一種是媒體也發現的他不是要你軍人自拍是要你軍人去拍你現在所看到的美景那這個某種程度就是要他洩露他所處在的位置跟軍機軍事機密所以這個部分如果看到這樣的樣態的時候請問一下國防部跟數位部有所謂的綠色通道可以立刻要求即刻下架嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11811.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11829.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
蘇衛部的綠色通道是對所有部會開放的所以只要比如說教育部這邊如果有兒少法相關的就是有法律依據要求蘇衛部通過綠色通道去下架那我們都會積極辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11830.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11850.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好 其實 治標是剛剛我詢問部長的就是在這三大樣態當中過去這一年多以來到底有沒有做必要的防制或是必要的宣導或是必要的處置對於我們國軍弟兄的心理素質或是對他們的狀況做了解但是亡羊補牢的部分就是我提出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11852.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11867.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11868.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11882.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我個人當然現在可能要研議一下我們有關這個下架的依據這可能需要做個研議我的意思是下架的依據是當你看到這種要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11884.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11906.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
職業軍人裸拍或是職業軍人去用以低利來誘拐他們算誘拐嗎好就是吸引他們來做這個借貸又或者是高額的徵稿這樣的過程中他不涉及不法嗎或不涉及所謂機密上面的安全嗎尤其是要求軍人提供軍人證明或軍人證等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11908.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11917.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
如果有,那麼就軍方的內部來講,不是就應該要要求這樣的樣態的滲透方式的貼文下架嗎?部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11921.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11950.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我們可能沒有辦法去處理到下架這個部分但是我們會處理到國軍在這個方面的一個警覺意識然後讓他有一個正確的一個理財的觀念或者是一個正確的一個保護各自的一個概念或者是保護這個國防相關機密的一個概念這樣子的一個宣導是很重要的那我們也會做一些相關的查核來查核這個官兵所相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11952.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11977.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
他有沒有一些問題或狀況那這個部分可能是我們可以來還是要持續來加強來進行的好部長謝謝你的回應我的言下之意就是數位部他其實跟社群平台是有所謂一個下架的綠色通道他們會去處理所謂下架的這個過程包括過去我看到的金融詐騙或者是名人的這個假的部落格 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11978.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11981.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
假的這個所謂的粉絲專頁來做假的這種古有色等等那這個部分金管會會通報數位部他會來做下架那麼金管會會有他的法規同樣的農業部對於這種非法帶入台灣內部的生鮮 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11993.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12001.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
或者是種子等等這是農業部所管轄農業部如果一旦覺得有違法他會通報數位部那麼同樣的我剛剛質詢的脈絡只是要來提醒就是前面我所講到的這個三個樣態剛剛就質詢來說您也覺得這個不合理嗎不合規嗎甚至於包括會有對於國軍的滲透那麼如果你們覺得這些發文的內容是有問題的就可以聯絡數位部由他們來通知平台下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12022.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12040.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以言下之意我期望的是國防部跟數位部也要建立起這樣的聯絡管道因為剛剛數位部的缺陣子也說了他其實是對各部會來進行開放那麼我只希望就是亡羊補牢的時候你們這條線能夠連結起來就是這個意思可以嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12041.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12062.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
是,我們來跟數位部來研議因為現在那個因為這個部分也有涉及到黨詐這相關的可能的一個議題所以黨詐專法的部分如果能夠通過的話也許讓我們這個部分的這個下架的這個法律預計會更堅強一點好,謝謝好,謝謝今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12070.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12099.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有李毅君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢位及答覆部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束三會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12106.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12107.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
主席 |