| IVOD_ID |
160873 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160873 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-01T09:46:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-01T09:56:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0ce1fa4821b56310b1fb26350580dc1695144d4d67ecd09c1a4b7ee112536bc485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
高金素梅 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:46:11 - 09:56:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。九、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。） |
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主席我們請黃次長好請黃次長次長你好這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
36.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
公文報告國安法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委會來審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
37.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
58.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
所以未来主管机关是行政院还是行政院所以行政院会跨部会协调大家但是今天我们看到立法院有九个修法版本那在我看来的时候我真的觉得不可思议我要讲一下过去这几年在民进党的主导之下我们在2019年修了国安无法然后也立了反渗透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
60.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
69.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
72.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
98.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
而四隔三年我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
99.873 |
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123.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我認為啦 雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
146.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
171.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
176.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
198.377 |
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219.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
222.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
247.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如 Google |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
248.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
273.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
274.923 |
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297.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.318 |
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326.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
328.066 |
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| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
335.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
360.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好 未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好 再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好 司法院今天有來嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
365.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
393.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
425.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
450.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.428 |
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472.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
486.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
494.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
511.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
524.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
528.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
543.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
544.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
563.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
564.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
589.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝 |