| IVOD_ID |
160798 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160798 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-30T11:38:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-30T11:49:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369c5cfdc06f8fda0da8b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f88274d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
羅廷瑋 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:38:28 - 11:49:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
10.424 |
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18.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
19.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
46.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
62.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
64.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
91.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好 我們來看一下統計根據統計 自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
141.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
144.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
169.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
187.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
189.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
218.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
242.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
271.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
272.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
299.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要好 重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
302.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
322.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
330.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
340.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
341.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
367.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
369.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
386.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
386.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
410.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
411.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
425.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
444.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
跟委員說明 確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
466.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
466.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
474.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
483.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
504.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
505.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
522.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
546.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
548.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
561.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
564.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
583.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次 到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
611.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
638.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
639.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝 |