| IVOD_ID |
160780 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160780 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-20-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-30T10:32:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-30T10:47:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423695586481c26908dfa693dd611367b4dddc2100e055cb59403e2bac01cfa5d53fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:32:43 - 10:47:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：
一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】
二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。
【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
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SPEAKER_04 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
4.213 |
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主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好 請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好 法務部那個謝副司長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
31.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
主委好 法官好 副市長好來 我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好 先就交到主委來 主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
65.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
65.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
113.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子 法官是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
120.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
毛法官不好意思 因為我是民視廳的法官好了 那個副市長 法制司副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
122.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
148.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
174.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的 那主委請 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
177.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
200.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
202.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
211.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
212.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
231.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
233.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
248.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
還要裁定要扣押啊對 所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是 所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對 就是我們對於剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
249.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
264.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
264.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
284.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
285.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
297.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
297.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
318.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
320.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
343.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
346.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
371.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
372.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
400.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官 毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
401.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
416.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對 沒錯 目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛 是不是是的好 那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
419.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
437.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
報告委員 感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好 那有一個方法嘛 就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢 根據因有債務人資 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
439.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
461.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛 是不是這樣對 沒錯 我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝 來往前 彭主委所以呢 我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
462.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
481.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
482.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
508.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
511.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
538.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
538.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
550.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛 我要講的就是另外呢 我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
553.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
575.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
577.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
591.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
594.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
623.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
624.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
635.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
638.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
651.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
667.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
687.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
687.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
713.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
714.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
725.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
729.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
746.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
748.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
770.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
770.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
785.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
790.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
819.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對 這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好 所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
820.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
827.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
829.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
854.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
855.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
860.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好 謝謝主委 謝謝副市長 謝謝毛老闆好 謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘 |