| IVOD_ID |
16078 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16078 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024070333 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-08T08:30:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-08T11:35:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:04:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc24c05d0b3147a6070f9a65472a0a5ac34f242ceca9577839bbdc2cf317a5c3ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:46 - 11:35:00 |
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王毅惠理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2020.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2044.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
劉邦秀主任洪志勳律師陳仲妍律師陳永正主任邱碧英副秘書長李聖傑副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2050.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2063.445 |
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原本我們請社團法人、全球永續公益組織聯盟理事長王毅會發言的部分發言前王理事長有請我這邊要跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2064.517 |
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2082.602 |
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那就是原本推薦的商總前副秘書長戴中興他因為有事情沒辦法前來所以就委由王理事長來代為發言那待會他會以臺灣的中小企業作為發言主體做發聲的主體我們現在介紹機關的代表機關代表要拿起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2092.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2115.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好 那我們現在先介紹法務部部長鄭明謙部長然後法務部廉政署署長馮誠司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信啟選舉部法規司副司長藍夏穎好 那其餘的列入公報紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2121.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2140.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱討論提綱一有關揭弊者保護法以下簡稱本法草案之立法政策就應採行公私分立公部門先行公私合併公私合併上市上櫃板或公私分流行政立法雙軌並行何者為宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2142.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2159.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
前開基礎架構差異分析其利弊為何二倘若行政院提案版本採取公部門立法先行司部門以行政指導推動會避免影響司部門之揭弊行為由各產業分別定定規定司部門揭弊之作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2159.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2159.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2185.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2209.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在邀請各位發言之前我先做幾點說明第一個 專家學者發言順序就依照我們今天簽到的順序先後為之如果有要提前發言的可以先告訴我主席台這邊那我們會予以著意調整本位的委員就是按照登記先後發言如果陸續到場的話我們再穿插各位委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2210.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2211.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2228.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2250.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席的左邊這個是委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是在提取各位專家學者的意見所以每位專家學者發言的時間是10分鐘本院委員發言的時間是5分鐘我們現在開始請專家學者發言首先我們請第一位的林志傑教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2260.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2274.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
親愛的召委還有部長署長各位行政的長官在此的專家先進們以及列席的行政同仁大家早安大家好很感謝今天司法及法制委員會能夠安排這個非常重要的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2275.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2290.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我國的廉政署從2011年成立成立以後第一個最重要的法案就是揭弊者保護法草案所以從2012年其實由我個人還有很尊敬的李聖傑老師以及許多的專家學者就針對我國是否應該去設立揭弊者保護的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2295.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2296.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委託研究案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2318.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2344.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以如果能夠把公司部門合併一起來做揭弊者保護可能會更適宜於是後來廉政署又將公司部門合併列出了另外一版的草案但是我國因為有兩個非常重要的因素使得揭弊者的推動一直不勝順利第一個當然是文化的因素因為在亞洲社會裡面忠誠或者是組織的一些這個陸力以赴常常會被 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2345.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2363.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
此揭弊者有一個污名化的狀況第二個是臺灣過去曾經經歷過50年的這個戒嚴時期跟白色恐怖揭弊者很容易造成大家覺得匪諜就在你身邊有一種隨時會遭到檢舉的壓力那當然另外一個就是在公司部門合併以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2364.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2387.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
司法部門的規模產業類別非常多元一概是用同一個專法可能會造成對一些小型業者或者是對揭弊者反而可能有更不利的狀況稍後會予以說明那麼過去這十幾年來其實我們的法制也革新日益的不同尤其是我們加入了聯合國反貪腐公約至今已經做過兩次的國際審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2388.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2407.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
每一次國際審查的專家的結論跟建議性報告都提到台灣作為一個民主法治的國家必須要對於這個弊案可以防患於未然應該要更早能夠來對揭弊者進行這個保護使得重大的犯罪可以在早期的時候被發現被預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2409.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2429.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以其實我們兩次在國家報告的過程裡面因為我個人都全程的參與也協助我國的政府在第一線去為我們的政策來辯護那我覺得國際的專家學者是可以了解我們需要更多的時間但是我覺得我國的政府也不能夠因此在立法上面就有所延誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2430.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2451.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
一方面要積極的跟社會進行溝通二方面我覺得還是有可以做一些精進的作為所以以下分兩個部分來說明第一個是現行的我有看到各位委員所提出的版本可能產生的問題以及未來應如何的凝聚共識第二點在專法還沒有通過之前我們還可以做哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2453.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2474.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
相關的詳細書面資料剛剛已經提供本期的當代法學的期刊剛好我個人就撰寫一篇論文由於是7月15號才出刊特別情商這個出版社能夠讓我今天提供在立法院的內部使用本文因為還需要做最後的三教所以麻煩大家先不要流傳但是引用的部分應該是沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2475.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2492.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
首先第一個揭弊者最重要的保護有三個也就是身份的保密工作安全的保障以及人身安全的保護但是這三保會跟我們揭弊的範圍公司部門是不是合併是否需內部通報先行等都會有所差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2493.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2519.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因此這邊就產生了幾個難題第一個公部門跟私部門需不需要合併第二個哪些行為可以該當所謂的公益揭弊因為公益的範圍非常廣比如說當我今天去揭弊一個私部門的主管有婚外情這是公益嗎答案是他可能是可能不是因為倘若今天他是有侵占公款的狀況那這又是一個上市櫃公司他可能就是公益 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2520.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2534.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
可是如果我們的範圍如此的鉅細靡遺﹐恐怕會失去真正公義保護的目的﹐所以到底它的範圍要放得多寬﹐哪些行為的違反會被當作是合理的公義揭弊﹐這個是第一個我們遇到的爭點 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2535.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2550.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
再來就是不是要內部通報先行比如說有一些國家在大型企業裡面他會認為揭弊其實是一個神秘課的概念他是幫助企業內部的自我矯正也就是說企業可能因為他太多層級了所以他不容易發現弊端 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2552.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2572.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個時候揭弊其實是很好的幫助企業上級者能夠做好管理所以他要求你要內部揭弊但以我國90%可能都是中小企業來說的話你要求內部揭弊先行他如果內部只剩下20個人或30個人那麼他一旦揭弊他的身份保密就蕩然無存 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2572.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2598.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以如果要內部揭弊先行也必須考慮產業的類別跟產業的規模再來就是揭弊是否要檢據合理的事證那這一點當然非常重要一定要有可信的基礎否則的話揭弊就會變成黑函滿天飛變成一種政治的鬥爭或者是彼此互相攻擊這個不管對公部門的施政或私部門的企業運作都會產生非常大的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2599.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2599.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
揭弊是否因訴及既往 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2629.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2645.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以到底應該怎麼樣去保護揭弊者包括對共犯也就是本身自己也涉入犯罪的人他的揭弊的幽會跟減免應該到什麼程度那以上這些都是我們今天可以一個一個來請教專家學者的議題那因為是第一位發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2645.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2647.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2664.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2687.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
在這些有特許事業政府長有行權政府長有金融的特許醫療的特許那麼我覺得特許事業裡面的揭弊也許是可以先用行政指導的方式來要求他先做第二個是政府有相當多的公營事業比如說我們政府有這個占股50%以上的公營事業或者是政府作為大股東的事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2687.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2702.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那就代表這個事業體裡面是納稅人的付出那既然有納稅人的公部門的金錢在裡頭我覺得公營事業或者是政府占大股東的事業你應該要先做沒有道理政府不做然後叫私人企業先行 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2703.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2726.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
最後一個是政府的採購 既然今天這個司部門的企業你是來承攬政府的這個採購或者是政府的公共工程 那麼各位可以看到民眾之所以擔心弊案會發生 不外乎是因為如果有一些涉及重大公安的工程發生弊案可能對人民的生命身體財產安全造成非常大的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2726.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2754.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以如果今天在採購政府的公共工程的時候我們可以在公共工程的標案中去要求採購的廠商必須建置一定的揭弊者吹哨者保護的制度那當然這個時候我們把它列為或者是成標的一個要件或者是在簽約中要求對方一定要有保護不然的話可以給付一個違約金就我們可以在設計上用各種不同的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2755.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2755.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
揭弊者保護必須更細緻化、類型化 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2770.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2790.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
也就是說目前如果我們一定要推一個公司部門的專法那麼在私部門的部分尤為謹慎那麼我必須要講的一點就是說私部門還是應該要有揭弊者保護我覺得這個是台灣不可迴避的一件事情只是他的保護不能影響私部門的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2790.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2790.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2813.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2841.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我覺得在目前的專法裡面是沒有看到的還是必須要有一個國家法議跟重大的社會法議之間的一個權衡那最後要談的就是說揭弊者這個草案其實已經出來非常久的時間12年了那我建議就是說很多事情可以先做我們不用氣急一步就要推專法因為專法裡面有剛剛提到的非常多難以凝聚共識或者需要更多時間去凝聚共識的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2842.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2868.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是以剛剛說的這三個我覺得是可以先做的因為我們在座也有金管會的長官事實上金管會早在四五年前就透過內機內控的辦法要求各大金融業者必須要先做好內部的吹哨者保護制度我覺得這應該是特許事業一個非常好的示範那以上是我今天的發言那文章也提供給各位那歡迎各位進一步的討論也在此向大家就教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2869.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2870.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
王理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2884.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2910.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席部長署長各位官員長官各位委員大家早上好從永續治理從企業永續治理的角度來說防堵並且揭露不法的行為是有助於維護產業的健康運作但是在私部門的具體應用上仍然存在許多的爭議比如說公部門與私部門的運作模式跟利益相關者不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2912.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2927.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
公部門的經營未必能直接套用於私部門不同企業有不同的治理模式跟文化統一標準可能不適用於各行業的需求所以對企業內部會治理會造成負擔剪大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2951.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2971.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對企業的商譽會造成很大的影響影響投資人的信心所以我們認為行政立法雙軌並行的話彈性比較大能根據不同部門的特性來進行調整也可以避免不當干預企業內部的治理去影響企業的ESG的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2978.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2997.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
由於各產業分別先訂定規定私部門揭弊的作為確實比較需要各產業的實際各別的來根據他們的營運模式跟風險管理的需求來訂定關於生命安全的產業一定要先有特別的規範例如說提升幼稚園安全和保護兒童的權益我們認為應該要先以內部優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3006.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3018.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
使企業有機會針對指控進行了解跟澄清﹐避免公司無端遭到司法的調查﹐平白耗費勞力時間費用而去影響公司的運作接避方式我們認為應該先以由內而外為主﹐強調內部治理和內部通報的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3028.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3040.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
企業應該優先通過內部治理和內部監督機制來解決問題這樣子也有助於提升企業自我管理和風險控制的能力避免增加無謂的司法的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3043.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3062.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
關於外部通報的風險我們這邊想強調一下如果貿然向外部監督機關提出揭弊很有可能造成揭弊錯誤或者揭弊的失準導致企業內部機密的外洩損害企業的商業利益而且可能被競爭對手惡意的來利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3071.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3100.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
關於專責機關設立的困難我們想臺灣因為有150萬家中小企業八成以下都是五人以下的小公司需要大量的資源投入跟專業人員配置確保符合揭弊者法案的各項要求這只會增加企業的營運成本和行政的負擔實在是不利於中小企業的生存跟發展所以我們認為逐步推動適合企業本身情況的揭弊機制避免一刀切的立法政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3100.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3127.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
對企業ESG的成長帶來不利的影響那針對各國現有的機制我們有做幾個國家的這個案例來做說明美國他在要求金融機構設立專門部門處理揭弊者報告的時候大幅增加了企業的管理複雜性和營運成本包含設立專門的揭弊者保護官培訓員工執行相關的流程等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3129.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3133.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
英國雖然強調揭弊者的保密但實際操作中揭弊者身份洩漏的案例還是常常可以見到可見在實務操作中難以完全避免信息洩漏的風險如果今天是企業可能會面臨巨大的賠償責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3149.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3161.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
美國提供揭弊者經濟的獎勵：可是也引發了大量惡意舉報和濫用揭弊機制的情況：對企業內部的信任跟合作都造成了負面的影響韓國在立法過程當中：也經歷了很多次修改跟完善：這表示制度實施中的困難是有挑戰性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3173.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3180.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
日本雖然針對公共利益的揭弊有提供獎勵金但是效果也是有限所以在我國我們的揭弊者保護制度仍在發展當中如果貿然導入私部門可能帶來不確定性的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3194.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3212.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
總結我們要避免法案實施之後會有濫用制度的風險例如有心人士可能會以揭弊為名報復或打擊競爭對手或在個人利益的驅動下濫用這個揭弊的機制無法避免企業無端被指控帶來的不公平影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3216.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3236.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
雖然揭弊者在舉發之後這個法案是可以讓他得到充分的保護但是如果包含職位不受影響薪資保留等等這一些保護措施其實是跟企業的經營自主權是有產生衝突的比如我們企業無法再放心把工作交給揭弊者卻還要保留揭弊者的福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3238.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3253.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以不同產業有不同的業務流程和風險這邊建議需要針對不同的產業有針對性的揭弊的機制避免濫用制度跟維護雙方的權益跟企業的正常營運之間找到合理的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3254.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3279.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以在還沒有完整的配到之前我們建立這個揭弊先採內機內控的機制避免造成不必要的損害所以說四部門先以行政指導推動未來再逐步擴大法制化範圍以上今天是我的發言謝謝大家好謝謝王理事長下一位我們請劉邦秀主任發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3286.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3313.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主席、部長、署長還有各位在座的各機關首長、主管還有在座的先進老師、學者、專家我是中信技能管理宣言財經法律系的教授前主任我提供的資料在書面都有了這個議題我從109年就有研究了當時我有針對第9屆跟第10屆所提出來草案主條都有提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3314.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3315.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
臣如林志傑所述 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3322.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3349.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我也在今年7月大概這個月就會發行的當代法治雜誌我大概就是聚焦在私部門因為公部門這個研究已經非常久從廉政署成立就已經有研究公部門的揭弊那公部門的揭弊跟私部門的揭弊應該是比較的很大的差異第一個從保護方面也不一樣還有適用的範圍也不一樣這個部分如果歷次的從第9屆跟第10屆提出的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3351.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3351.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3377.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3392.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
揭弊者如果是共犯關係,保護範圍到底要到多寡呢?是當時的揭弊者保護或是共犯性的揭弊保護是不是要不同?這部分在歷屆提出的草案都沒有探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3393.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3394.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3404.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3429.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
《揭弊者保護法》如林智傑教授講的其實在上市上櫃公司裡面都有行政指導相關的行政規則都可以示範我們把公司合併的《揭弊者保護法》立為同一法首先產生幾個爭議提出來給各位思考的在我的文章裡面從第6頁講 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3434.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3436.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
內部優先原則在私部門公司治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3456.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3484.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
上市上櫃公司上市應該有大多數的投資者這樣子是跟公益有關係剛才前一位發言者林智傑老師也講說這個特取行業比如說銀行或者是國家特取的一些營業這個確實就跟公益有關係這邊把它列入為私部門優先受理的方案如果要公私合併我認為還是不能全體適用在私部門還是要一定的界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3485.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3498.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
當然最好因為前一次本屆立法院改選之前法務部有提出說希望朝公司分離的立法我認為這是比較可行而且是 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3500.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3502.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3519.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3535.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
每一屆的委員上台之後都會把上一屆委員因為任期不聯繫的關係所以他會再重新由某些委員提案連署之後再送進立法委員所以這部分關於四部門則因為四部門為什麼要公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3536.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3537.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3558.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3559.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
公聽會：揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3585.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3603.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
政府機關,內部通報我們有列政風人員是最優先其實也不是每個政府機關都有政風人員所以還有檢查機關那你想想看如果是私部門的話沒有內部通報,一下子內部人員都會機關有弊端,公司有弊端就跑去外部檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3605.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3623.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個是不是符合公司治理原則這部分我們要思考雖然立法政策如果要把私部門列入揭弊的話我認為要一定的範圍上市上櫃公司所以有內部的比方說上市上櫃公司都有獨立董事或審計委員這是一個獨立機關這可以立法設為 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3628.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3629.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3640.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3660.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
施部門內部人員檢體的保護機制跟公部門也要不一樣新竹縣家促集運防守代理生案本身就是共犯性的揭弊者我們可以認為共犯性的揭弊者之後他就免除所有的責任他可以申請回任公務員就可以最後找的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3661.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3662.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3678.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3703.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
在任用他為公務員這個機關都可以有考量不能要求說我揭弊之後我就一定要有完全不受任何限制的保護我覺得在共犯行揭弊者的保護裡面我覺得這部分要分開跟一般單純的公益揭弊者不一樣的地方不然就會成為剛才講的李老師講的可能會有黑函文化盛行或者先下手回強的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3705.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3731.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
另外接避者的苛責問題任何人我們都要被苛責如果這是假的或者是動機不良者都應該要有苛責我們第1屆的草案從第9屆第10屆到第11屆裡面我們完全聚焦的都是接避者的保護那如果被接避者他是無辜的或者是有被動機不良善的這怎麼辦呢另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3732.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3756.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
在私部門的保護我認為要採取的跟公部門完全不一樣公部門可以申請回任因為他的老闆是國家國家的主要受僱者不是機關所長所以他可以申請回任在私部門公司的負責人可以允許說去外部揭弊重算是公益他可以讓他繼續顏值留用嗎不可以把他 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3757.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3757.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3786.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3806.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個議題,濫刑揭弊要有苛責另外有關司部門揭弊者的保護,我們要採取合一宗旨那如果不能合一宗旨怎麼辦?我們應該採取就是法院的勞動法院的機制,就是訴請法院的機制而且這個要什麼?盡快的,因為你不能讓一個揭弊者繼續留在公司然後也不能讓他成為公司的一個什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3807.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3832.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
負擔那揭弊之後當然是我們國家保護他人身安全這個是國家的義務至於說跟施部門裡面的一個關係我們要採取一個妥善的解決機制這個才是在施部門公益揭弊法立法裡面我要琢磨的如何保護他如何讓這個好具好善的條款實行而不是要求一個不可實行說揭弊者之後以後永遠都要留在這個公司因為以我在擔任這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3834.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3844.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
新竹科學研機的勞動調整重產源我沒有發現一個公司可以接受這是上市商的大公司只要揭弊之後很難以 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3845.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3846.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3873.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3874.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
李主任,下一位請洪律師發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3905.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3929.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席 部長 署長 在座各位長官 還有在座各位的與會的專家學者大家好 我是萬國法律事務所 洪志榮 洪律師今天很榮幸有機會可以受邀來針對揭弊者保護這個議題進行一個發言那誠如剛剛諸位學者專家的那個發言可以發現其實揭弊者保護這個議案是各界所關乎的議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3930.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3932.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3947.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3967.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我們才會有訂定這樣子的一個草案的起點但是如果我們是站在一個公益的立場來探討這個草案的話那究竟如何將公共的利益與私部門的揭弊作為一個適當的連結我想剛剛的幾位的學者裡面都有經過特別提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3968.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3988.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
在現行的這樣子一個市部門的揭弊制度裡頭他所涉及的層面如此的廣泛甚至有可能涉及到所謂的黑韓文化這樣子的影響如果直接的就把市部門的揭弊直接跟目前的草案裡面畫上等號的話吳亦呼是不是會鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3990.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4013.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
企業內部的競爭透過揭弊的方式以民意以揭弊的大旗來塑形內部競爭或是內部精英權爭奪的民意而導致公司事部門內部的公司治理的目的蕩然無存我想這個也是應該在揭弊者草案裡頭所要特別應該要注意的一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4014.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4014.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4034.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4062.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
揭弊者草案的推動因為企業內部的揭弊所涉及的層面實在是過於廣泛如同剛剛林志儀老師提到有可能涉及到營業秘密也有可能涉及到特許的行業內部的相關的管制規範或者是公開發行公司裡面的相關的一個內規我想這樣子的一個制度裡頭涉及的層面非常非常廣但是大家要注意一點我們剛剛提到的不論是特許事業或者是公開發行公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4065.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4092.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這裡頭都是主管機關已經有訂定比較相關詳細的行政規則或者行政命令的情況之下才可以讓相關的揭弊者的一個制度予以推動但是反觀我國現行的產業結構裡面還是以中小企業的企業為主在目前中小企業的規格規模裡頭如果沒有達到一定的規模卻要求私部門必須要去遵守相關揭弊的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4093.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4109.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
無異乎會讓施部門承受過重的相關的資源或成本的投入這樣或許會讓施部門的揭弊的美意而受到一個折扣所以我認為以目前的我國的現況來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4111.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4111.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4127.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4127.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4143.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4167.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
以目前事部門的揭弊來看的話﹐他所涉及的企業的規模﹐是不是應該因應予以的定定﹐如同剛剛林老師所特別提到的﹐如果今天事部門的規模﹐可能只有5個人的話﹐難道還要求他一定要建構一個﹐內部揭弊制度嗎﹐只要任何一個人跳出來﹐主張說公司內部有弊案﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4167.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4195.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那個人的身份隨之就會曝光那如果有面臨到這個問題的話是不是應該在適用事部門的揭弊裡頭的公私規模應該也要仿效我國現行其他管制法規一樣做一個限制性的一個規定我想認為應該是有必要的那回歸到揭弊事部門裡頭的揭弊人的人別我們觀察了幾個外國的立法例不論是英國日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4196.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4225.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
正是美國關於公司部門內部揭弊人員的人別通常大部分只限於勞工為什麼只限於勞工因為勞工在公司裡頭他是受僱主的指揮監督去執行職務他本身並沒有一個足夠的武器可以跟僱主進行抗衡那如果不透過一個揭弊者一個保護的方式來保護這些勞工的話勞工是根本不敢跳出來進行一個揭弊的動作但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4226.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4256.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
如果我們觀察臺灣實務的發展其實公司裡頭的董事、監察人或是總經理也曾經有跳出來擔任揭弊者角度的個案發生但如果今天董事、監察人、總經理他揚棄了公司法賦予他的忠實義務去善盡他的職責監督公司反而是以一個揭弊者的角度跳出來揭露公司內部的弊案這樣子的方式是我國揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4256.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4256.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4284.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4284.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4300.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4323.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
最後一個部分我們也可能會呼應到剛剛幾位專家學者所特別提到的問題我國私部門裡頭其實是揚次衝刺的黑函的檢舉文化那我們常常在實務觀察裡面也可以發現這些黑函的檢舉的所援引的資料裡頭往往是來自於透過不法的方式去取得公司的相關的機密文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4325.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4350.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
如同剛剛專家學者特別提醒的如果你今天所擷取的相關的機密文件是屬於公司內部的營業秘密或是機密文件所保護的標的而你卻用不法的手段擷取了相關的機密資料而且把這個機密資料用來作為揭露公司弊案的一個資訊的話這樣子的行為是法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4351.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4378.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
以目前我國實務的發展如果你是以不法的方式取得這些機密資料你取得資料的本身就是一個違法的行為那如果你在用這個違法行為所取得資料作為一個揭秘的一個依據而最後受到相關的揭秘者保護法或者是後續的揭秘事部門揭秘者保護法的行政指引行政指導的保護而免除其不法行為的追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4379.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4404.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這樣子的行為我認為其實是抵觸我國現行相關法令的一個制度所以我認為未來如果要鼓勵建構一個私部門的內部揭秘制度如果今天揭秘人他所取得的相關的一個揭秘的文件他是用不法的方式所取得的話這應該是要去立法明文排除適用於揭秘者保護法的適用範圍裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4405.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4407.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會．揭弊者保護法草案之基礎架構差異與利弊影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4431.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4431.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4457.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4484.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
非常感謝主席今天非常謝謝這麼多的專家學者針對《吹哨者保護法》提供我們非常多寶貴的建議在這邊作為司法法制委員會的議員我要向所有出席這一場公聽會的專家學者表達我個人非常誠摯的建議各位所發表的高見有的時候我們現在比較忙在各個委員會跑沒有辦法坐在這邊全程聽完但一定會成為我們接下來修法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4484.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4498.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
非常重要的參考依據我自己對於《摧要者保護法》的觀察是包括了很多學者或者是專家所提出來的公司部門到底要不要合併那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4499.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4527.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
洩密行為本身構成不法行為的時候在什麼要件下在什麼程度範圍內應該要免除他的法律責任我相信這些問題啊其實在台灣一點都不新穎討論超過10年以上討論超過10年以上因為我2016年到2020年那個時候在立法院服務的時候我也推動了吹哨者保護法那時候其實已經完成了委員會的審查但我們現在已經是2024年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4530.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4553.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
2024年過去這十幾年相關的問題包括公司部門要合併還是要分流對於有一些企業內部不法的行為在什麼要件下我們應該可以保護在什麼樣的要件下應該要予以處罰如同我剛剛跟大家所報告的其實國內的文獻非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4554.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4575.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們2016到2020在委員會討論的時候那個時候法務部還有提版本出來是按照法務部的版本在審那是公司部門合併所有的疑問法務部那時候都回應但問題是什麼台灣為什麼吹哨者保護法推到今天我們還在原地踏步 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4576.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4604.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是主政者的決心不足還是在阻擋這個法案的大金控背後的利益團體政治上面拉比的力量太強了這兩個因素我自己都功逢其勝全部都遭遇過因為有大金控啊是花好幾千萬的預算啊在買媒體啊買宣傳啊在拉比啊不要推動吹哨子的保護法為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4605.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4622.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
有人出來揭弊的時候有人出來揭弊的時候把這些弊案攤在陽光下的時候本來住豪宅坐豪車的大金控的老闆就有可能被羈押嘛就有可能被訴追犯罪嘛這個是我們私改會議總結報告2017年8月12號有結論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4632.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4639.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
到現在崔少哲保護法跟大家報告跳票2523天2523天2523天是什麼概念大家可以一起想一想台灣還有多少時間可以這樣蹉跎下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4649.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4660.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們還要讓勇於出來吹哨的人遭受到迫害遭受到追殺到什麼時候這個是立法院要非常嚴肅面對的問題真的要非常嚴肅面對的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4665.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4682.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
不要為了保護少數的大金控的老闆讓一堆需要被保護的吹哨人沒有辦法得到正常的保護我們首次反貪腐國家公約的報告說要制定公司部門揭弊者保護機制這個報告是2018年這是我國將反貪腐公約國內法化了以後我們所負的國家義務我們所負的國家義務2018年講到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4695.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4723.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
國際審查委員建議我們要立法處理揭弊者保護第二次國家報告的時候說要公私部門合併我們的政府的態度是變來變去一會要分開一會要合在一起然後結果呢國際審查委員指責立法院要立法院優先審議揭弊者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4724.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4753.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
但我們的反貪腐國家公約包括那個國家報告本身包括找國際審查委員來審查本身花了納稅人不少錢啊花了納稅人這麼多錢結果最後的結果是什麼最後的結果就是沒有結果花納稅人的錢大拜拜搞得很熱鬧發新聞稿國際審查委員來也告訴了我們國家該做的什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4754.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4779.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
有做嗎有做嗎做在哪裡做到今天啊揭弊者保護法草案我們的行政院啊到底在哪裡到底在哪裡還要拖多久然後結果最近一次又轉彎了一開始是要公私分開後來要公私合併現在又要公私分開光這個基礎的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4783.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4797.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
光這個基礎的問題現在成為什麼 拖延的藉口拖延的藉口每次問到永遠都在演繹我只問一個最簡單的問題跳票2500多天了還不夠久嗎台灣還有多少個2500多天被迫害的吹哨者還有多少個2500多天 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4811.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4834.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這不是法律設計要怎麼設計的問題我報告過了我們的學者專家我們律師界的先進我們的法官都很認真過去這十幾年來累積的論述漢牛衝動相關可以研議的資料非常非常的多甚至2016到2020年那一屆我們的法務部還有自己提草案出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4835.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4858.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
結果到現在2024年我們的法務部我們的行政院草案在哪裡不見蹤影每一次問永遠就在拖永遠都在混社會上有很多不同的意見我們會持續的研議持續的探討持續的研議持續的探討我不希望下一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4859.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4888.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
立法院的司法法制委員會繼續在討論這個問題的時候是10年以後10年以後我們依然在研議依然在探討到底要是公私合併還是要公私分開吹哨者被迫害的人在角落裡面哭泣前我大財團大金控的老闆在那邊笑哈哈我簡單舉個最簡單的例子就好了我前一陣子揭發了我前一陣子揭發了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4890.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4919.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們上市公司還是我們綠能國家隊拿納稅人30億結果幹什麼事情在我們的軍事要塞裡面放了會危害國家安全會危害國家安全不是我說的我們國安局說的會危害國家安全的中國資通訊產品我為什麼會知道這件事有人檢舉嘛有人吹哨嘛他不吹哨 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4920.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4942.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
他不吹哨社會怎麼知道這件事大家怎麼知道這件事情我們在設計這個機制的時候要在這一個上市公司裡面的人他們如何自處第一個跟老闆報告老闆你這樣做不對老闆說你明天回家吃自己這個是我們絕大多數人在職場的經驗第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4951.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4964.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
第二個他要怎麼做跟主管機關具名前舉公司很快就知道這個人是誰知道了又怎麼樣他被追殺了又怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4966.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4989.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們這個社會我們這個社會到底要他如何自處總要給他一個行為準則嘛什麼時候你可以揭弊什麼時候你不可以揭弊什麼時候你揭弊會被保護什麼時候你揭弊會用泄密罪來追溯你當然不是全部都保護啊但我們也不可以放任 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4991.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5007.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這些人永遠被追殺那這正是需要揭弊者保護法嘛把法律要件講清楚把法律效果講清楚這個是我覺得我們這一屆國會責無旁貸的任務一定要完成那我會利用這個機會非常感謝昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5009.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5033.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
中線很認真排了巡達又排了公聽會我希望下一次在排案的時候我們可以爭槍實彈進入逐條審查因為台灣社會等太久了我們違反聯合國反貪腐公約的義務違反太久了從司改國事會議的決議到現在跳票太久了需要立法院積極的採取行動謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5036.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5061.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
謝謝國常委員那因為今天是沒有行政院代表那我這邊也是要因為剛好國常委員在這邊我這邊也要跟行政院呼籲一下拜託你們院版什麼時候才要出來今天立法委員都已經長時間一直在關注這個案子然後大家也都提出相關的草案就行政院那邊的草案卻躺了那麼久那請問一下行政院到底什麼時候才要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5063.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5064.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
主席各位先進大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5088.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5114.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這是我第三次進來公聽會討論這個主題的那記得先前針對揭弊者保護法這個法案基本上立法我想絕大部分都是有共識的剩下的可能是一些細節的部分那其實揭弊者保護由於是這個名字其實是有修正過李教授他主導的那個研究計畫揭弊保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5115.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5140.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這有點理所當然比單純吹哨你還不曉得吹什麼哨弊端把它揭發出來並且針對這樣的行為加以保護這不是最理所當然的事情嗎所以揭秘保護我們應該討論的不是是否該立法而應該是如何立法才對我想這才是一個重點那 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5141.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5142.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
李聖傑老師即將發表的文章已經有介紹了 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5159.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5180.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那我說一個好處就是那因為看到一些其他的版本參考的各國的法案好像沒有直接參考到德國的那我想這應該是蠻具有參考價值那等一下我會就裡面的一些重點也許提供出來因為裡面其實蠻多的資訊那也許就來回應說這次討論提綱的一些問題我的一些看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5183.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5201.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
第一個就是一些最基本的觀念我這個觀念是從之前行政院的那一個草案的版本有一些基本的概念包含哪一個是揭弊者也就是所謂的內部人或是所謂的吹哨者 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5202.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5203.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5219.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5247.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
他們會包含跟不管是公部門或是部門裡面有聯繫的相關的人因為你一個廠商比如說我一個企業那我的採購部長我跟廠商然後要回扣那一個廠商他不是我公司的人但他也符合揭弊的要件這是一個要件的問題那可以揭弊的範圍以德國來說他們很清楚所有的犯罪行為以及其他的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5249.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5273.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
從我們來看犯罪行為應該是最嚴重的如果我們允許對其他非犯罪行為都可以舉發的話那怎麼還會有犯罪行為不能舉發的道理這是一個最基本的觀念那這邊還有一些細節我先不談我們純就立法的必要性那這一次似乎在爭執在公私部門尤其是私部門的部分那大家會覺得好像造成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5274.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5274.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5296.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5323.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以這個法案並不是要有這個法案他們才能揭弊從來不是如此而是把它立法化把檯面下的雜亂文章的做法我們把它統合積極的去立法讓至少已經比較有共識的我們立法來那在這個你符合法律的要件之下你的揭弊可以獲得相當程度的保護的效果這才是我們要做的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5324.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5337.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
不會因為這個法案而讓包含司部門他因此陷於混亂剛好是相反的更何況司部門是有立法的誘因的透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5338.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5364.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
揭弊者保護法他尤其是內部的一個通報的管道你原則上要先向內部去通報也因此讓企業有辦法在第一時間他就可以及早的獲知資訊可以及早的去解除危機管理這事實上對司部門都是有很大的誘因的更何況公司法第二條就直接規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5365.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5392.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
公司雖然是以盈利為目的但是公司也一樣同樣要遵守法令要增進公共利益所以這個部分以私部門來說完全沒有漢格之處所以以德國法他們的立法的模式他們是以專法的模式而專法模式裡面公司部門從全部都已經有規定了全部都已經有規定所以這個沒有問題那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5394.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5408.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
施部門若一併進來的話那要不要有規格比如說提綱裡面有提到是不是要上市上櫃我想這個有討論的空間以德國來說他們大概有分他們是用人數來分你的職員超過250人以上那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5409.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5433.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
第一個你主要私部門其實要建置一個通報的管道你要建置一個通報的管道你若沒建置以及違反相關的規定你有一些行政法的制裁的效果主要是在這個地方所以250人以上的你一定要在期限內就要建置那至於50人到250人這邊他期限有寬限 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5435.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5457.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
至於還沒到50人的我們常常見的中小企業他其實沒有這個一定的建制的義務他們已經做調和所以德國的是一個參考他們不一定都對而且他們執行的成效也要觀察但至少是一個先進國值得我們去參考的這是一個關於立法最基本的那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5458.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5473.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
具體的保護的部分第一個當然就是身份保密這個揭弊者你要對他有足夠的身份保密我可能要講快一點只剩3分那最重要的法律效果有要件事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5474.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5491.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
德國的這個專法有一個很重要的要件它其實是有設有要件的這個任何法律規範一定有要件跟法律效果所以他們在要件的時候他們有做立法權衡不要每一個都變成個案的權衡所以嚴重的國防機密的引言秘密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5492.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5511.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個不在揭弊的範圍這邊立法做了利益權衡了省卻一線的執法人員的困擾那它的法律效果當你符合要件的情況之下你才會受到揭弊者保護法的相關的保護包含責任的免除包含禁止有報復包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5515.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5539.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
讓揭弊者他享有一個請求權一個球場請求權而這個請求權為了讓他能夠實現這裡做了一個舉證責任的轉換讓他有效的去球場那當然我們不會希望所謂的黑函錯誤的的一個申報揭弊出現所以假設你是不死的話但是他這裡做一個調和除非你是故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5539.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5539.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5557.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5579.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
外部跟公開這三個是不同的要件內部就在企業或是公機關裡面的一個內部的機構那原則上內部通報優先那外部通報呢跟我們的先前的行政版本不太一樣外部通報比如說比如說他們有在司法局或者是在他們像我們的金管會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5580.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5595.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
他們會設一些外部的通報他不是偵查機構偵查機構本來就可以受理但他是一個外部的通報單位那原則上你是內部優先但是假設揭弊者他覺得他 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5596.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5619.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我內部通報是沒有效果的你不會給我回應的或者是我擔心會報復的話我可以向外部通報那至於公開呢就是任何人包含媒體那這個他們立法也一樣有明文規定那這個情況當然是很例外的情況這例外的情況比如說你要避免緊急重大的危難或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5620.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5646.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
你完全無法預期 而且當然又根據無法預期他們會就這個部分會做回應那這個是通報的內外 它是有次序的那這也是回應到司部門透過這一個內部通報它事實上可以即時掌握資訊對於司部門他們可以至少是危險控管 其實是有幫助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5648.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5669.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個有相關的一些的一些程序所以回應到簡單來說今天因為臨時接受通知沒有準備簡報跟大家比較抱歉也許之後會又可以提出就私部門來說其實我們對照私部門的ESG他們其實做得非常的好那觀念上 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5670.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5693.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
也許司部門公司裡面的特定個別的行為人他們違法那不代表公司也要跟著跟他一起同流合污這是兩回事公司是一個獨立的他們是要遵守法令的那第二個事實上他對於甚至偵查機關是有一定程度的檢壓效果這個跟刑事法尊有關我們現在就是什麼問題全部丟給 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5695.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5724.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
在大概30秒全部丟回刑事偵查機關有問題就舉發犯罪就全部重來監管就從頭查起連行政的一些缺失不足都全部自己來但事實上透過司部門或一些前置的程序你可以把一些實況釐清甚至有些問題他們可以去導正讓各個國家各個機關他們把珍貴的資源花在最珍貴的事情的處理上以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5726.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5727.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
陳永正主任發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5739.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5758.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
主席 各位委員 還有各位先進 大家好首先感謝各位委員對公私部門揭弊者保護的重視我是陳永正 來自於臺灣警察專科學校行政警察學系現在目前是教授兼主任本身實際從事過查緝貪賭以及進入監所訪談這些貪賭的行為歷程依照我們研究的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5772.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5794.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個發現 貪賭個案在行為的時候 他們比較擔心的是被捕的風險而不是被捕的結果所以說防治策略上著重在於增加犯罪的風險 也就是強化了監控機制在職場的工作環境當中 業者跟公務員之間常常會有相互掩護的現象 並且以行政手段來阻斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5795.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5812.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
內政﹑突銷﹑犯罪痕跡的這種情形所以在防弊作為上除了現有的政風、廉政調查的人員以外更應該要鼓勵機關內部員工的主動接避防止公部門在職權上的專善取斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5813.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5832.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
另外一方面強化外部的監控機制鼓勵全民參與並且保護揭弊者進而施部門也必須要對於揭弊制定規範以二組這種行受會的這種落實那在揭弊者保護專法的制定是我們國際間 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5834.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5834.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5854.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5878.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
一個良好的社會風氣必須要全民及公私部門一同的努力但在傳統的觀念上面公私部門講求對部門的忠誠度所以揭弊者通常被視為一種背叛者因此他們不僅僅要承擔身份被揭露之後遭受周遭不當罵名的傷害跟風險因此無論公部門的貪賭、私部門的違法案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5879.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5903.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
非內部人接入相關事證外界是恐難以查之因此對於公司部門的揭弊必須要鼓勵跟保護不要讓良善的揭弊者錯信立法的效用而成為犧牲者但更需要防範錯誤的揭弊這種利益良善結果為惡形成不當的報復跟排除異己的行為被揭弊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5903.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5928.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
遭受到的誤會、信譽、商譽的損失其等的清白該如何恢復這是一個很重要的議題以下我就針對提綱提出個人的淺見第一個部分依照《聯合國反貪腐公約》第二次的國家報告國家國際的審查提出施部門防備沒有納入對於施部門揭弊者的權利沒有辦法保護的意見個人認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5931.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5945.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
司部門分屬不同的機關專業資能難以齊備所以以採公私分流行政立法雙軌並行來符合保護司部門揭弊機制理由如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5948.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5966.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
國際審查反貪腐專家的結論性意見提及到施部門必須將企業主以及企業納入反貪行列國際委員主要認為是施部門沒有提供保護的機制以我們台灣特有的社會文化背景依照目前中小企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5967.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5973.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
加速超過163萬家 佔了全體企業98.9%明顯可見我們台灣私部門以中小企業及家族企業為主這些必須要將它納入訪攤的行列 但是私部門所涉及的專業事務比較複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5987.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6002.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那單純以此概括式的立法：不僅僅容易掛一落萬那也可能衍生範圍定義不明確以及避免產生勞資雙方信任度的疑義所以考量師部門分屬不同主管機關各領域的複雜度專業資能難能這個其背 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6006.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6028.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
又涉及到他們這些的商業機密及競爭等等這些正義因素在私部門就不同規模的企業應該是有不同揭弊機制的規定那這種公私分流的立法模式也符合國際這些審查的專家的意見提供了私部門揭弊的保護措施那第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6030.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6039.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
司部門由各產業分別定定揭弊的作為更符合時需先由公部門推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6040.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6066.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
提升反貪的認知以及宣導活動 辦理各規模私部門當中比如像外商企業誠信的論壇定期跟各商會召開反貪污作為的會議以及鼓勵企業採用ISO37001的反賄賂管理系統那這個系統裡面透過外部的第三方的查核那證明企業組織反貪污 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6068.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6080.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
反賄選的政策以及流程的有效性所以有表明遵循反賄賂法相關的規範以及與利害關係人合作管控企業組織供應鏈當中的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6084.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6101.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
確保公益商、分包商、代理商致力於反賄賂的最佳做法施部門跟公部門推動更多的合作鼓勵公司跟企業瞭解提升誠信跟反貪意識及做法的價值結合公部門行政指導確保施部門營運以及揭弊者的權益再逐步擴大法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6110.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6136.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個部分 基於尊重施部門的企業治理避免營運成本以及人事管理以及降低了勞資雙方信任度的影響為了保留公司營運以及人事運用的這種彈性施部門採行行政指導先行的策略先以循序漸進的方式保護揭弊者但是揭弊者最顧忌的權益都是工作權還有社會的尊嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6138.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6139.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那這種維繫社會關係的尊嚴被侵犯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6143.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6168.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
國家法律有絕對予以保護的必要所以基於保護良善的揭弊者現行法已經有各種單行的法規像是政教法、勞動基準法等等這些都設有保護的措施所以私部門並不是毫無保護揭弊者的這種機制未來在這個基礎之下逐步的擴及到私部門法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6170.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6185.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
無論公私合併、分流或雙軌並行下就揭弊採取的方式都必須要審慎避免揭弊者因私人或其他目的而有惡意不實的揭弊通報當揭弊及守護資料為虛偽不實 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6191.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6210.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個仍然應該要依法來就辦所以剛剛有提到的不管是公範、公範結構的洩密各方面的資料虛偽的部分都應該是有一些的機制來約束所以接避方式採取先內而外雙軌進行避免分工重複不宜再設專責的機構所以從雙軌並行的通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6215.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6228.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
公視部門組織重視的是誠信跟道德所以內部員工的揭弊行為對於公視部門組織管理都是一件很難的事情所以揭弊行為在組織文化上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6230.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6255.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
都被認為是對性外遇的行為但是呢 良善的揭弊者也應該被視為員工對部門忠誠度的呈現在私部門應該就不同規範的企業有不同的揭弊機制在外國立法例裡面我看從英國 美國 日本等等這些立法例裡面揭弊者的以內部通報先行委員者的這個例子也蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6256.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6277.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
可以向事業經營者設置或者指定的通報單位為通報針對比較具規模的企業或公司還有相關的法規以及主管機關都要求建立內部的控制跟集合的制度目前臺灣也是如此所以負責監督公司各項業務的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6280.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6297.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這對於企業的商域保障比較完善：並促進企業自動更正缺失：以維護它後面的運作就現有的組織編制：避免分工重復：不宜再設專責機關採行現有的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6301.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6327.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
主管機關的執掌、受理、揭弊案件都有完善的像政風、廉政、督查、調查系統對於檢舉陳情已經有揭弊的保護措施考量執掌、任務、機關源流的簡化等等這些因素顯無必要跟實益性所以我建議不適宜另行再涉專者的機關以上的簡介請各位知道 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6331.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6346.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
謝謝接下來我們請邱碧英副秘書長那待會邱碧英副秘書長報告完畢後因為已經將近一個半小時從開會到現在那我們就先到時候休息五分鐘謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6351.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6360.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
委員部長還有各位先進大家早安我是中華民國全國工業總會副秘書長邱秉英非常謝謝委員今天召開這樣子的一個有關揭秘者保護法草案的一個公聽會讓這個公總有機會來跟大家報告一下產業界的看法跟立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6372.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6375.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
昨年2023年的綜合企業白皮書提到,台灣的綜合企業有163萬家這麼多的龐大企業家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6392.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6410.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
全體企業98.9%以上所以當這樣的一個立法一刀切下來的時候其實對中小企業的影響不言可喻今天我想因為大家我想我們就把這個焦點就直接放在就是說到底這樣子的一個立法架構怎麼切會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6411.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6411.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6427.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6428.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6443.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6443.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6462.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6462.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6487.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6487.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6518.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6523.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
包括金控包括銀行包括證券包括保險這些相關的金融業它在內部的內控跟這個集合制度上面要求它更高強度的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6543.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6569.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
他要把這個檢舉制度要納入而且他也會加強金融檢查那另外包括政交所或中央存保公司他這些也會把上市櫃公司的這些檢舉制度納為年度抽查的審閱項目我想這相關的單行法規其實已經有相關的規定那其實最重要的是其實法規是在的問題出在哪裡問題出在執行面 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6572.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6597.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
到底有沒有真正的落實管理跟執行我覺得這是一個問題那另外一個是我想我們當然非常贊成現在剛剛幾位先進提到的還有我們看到這個法務部現在的書面說明裡面提到的就是公部門先行司部門分流並以行政這個措施來做輔導那 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6599.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6624.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
公總的立場是這樣公司分流並不是說私部門不要處理不要保護我們只是更加的鼓勵公部門的吹哨者先行也呼應剛剛黃委員的說法既然這樣子的一個立法已經蒸老多時而且但是在公部門的吹哨者保護法就是揭弊者保護的這個部分其實大家都沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6625.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6625.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6649.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6667.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
上市貴公司要跟中小企業分流這個參照德國的這個立法制我覺得這也是一個非常好的方向那這樣子的一個區別其實是有幫助的那其實老實說對私部門來講大家認為揭秘者是弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6668.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6668.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6687.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6710.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
尤其是有時候如果是這種這個揭秘的這個制度被惡意引用的時候其實同業的惡性競爭其實以前不乏少見那這樣子在即便後來證明了這件事情是烏龍或是說被證明是清白的但是所有的商譽都是沒有辦法回復的而且也沒有人會關注這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6711.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6739.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以我覺得這是一個非常重要的這個希望大家來參考的那另外要提的是當一個法案他會被推遲12年這麼久他絕對不是行政機關的怠惰我想其實是行政機關他在聽到了非常多的聲音之後他知道這件事情其實不是一刀切就可以解決的我們也看到其實在這個就是來來回回的這個立場裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6740.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6760.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
一定是有它的原因所在我們可以看它提出每一個版本裡面其實都考慮到但是後來會發現原來我還有沒有考慮到的當這樣子的一個事實現象反映出來是讓我們說所有事情其實是不用冒進因為沒有意義的那另外一個我要提的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6761.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6761.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6781.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6805.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
來揭露,那所有的委員們也非常勇於任事的去承擔這樣一個責任所以我覺得,我不說立法不重要,立法是重要的只是大家要了解,其實在這樣子的一個立法情況之下其實台灣的這個現實情況之下其實我們還是讓這個JP責保護法的行政部門先行也贏得大家社會的信賴,我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6806.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6806.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6835.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6863.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
以人情來說,他其實很難待在繼續的原單位工作也許在四部門的行政指導上面我們可以比較多的這種就是去訪查一些這個四部門企業面對這樣的話,怎麼樣處理會是更好的給予比較好的行政指導我覺得這才是一個比較務實的做法那當然我想這個以國家資源有限情況之下是不是要設一個專責機構當然我想這個不管是先進也好或是行政部門都有很多的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6864.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6865.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6930.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6931.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6958.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6959.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6970.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6971.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7010.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7011.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7026.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7027.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7052.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7053.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7073.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7075.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7100.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7101.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7139.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7151.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7170.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7171.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7185.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7186.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7217.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7218.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7232.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7233 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7254.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7259.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7274.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7274.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7302.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7302.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7325.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7325.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7345.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7345.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7365.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7367.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7380.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7380.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7409.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7409.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7443.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7444.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7505.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7506.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7536.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7537.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7543.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7544.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7567.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7567.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
副委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7611.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7614.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7637.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7641.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好 現在我們開始開會那下一位我們請李聖傑副教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7648.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7674.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主席趙薇好 與會的各位先進 部長署長大家早安今天我想我們立法院針對揭弊者保護法的立法政策具體呈現了三個提綱基本上第一個提綱跟第二個提綱我們一起講第三個提綱關於如果是私部門先行的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7677.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7705.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
事務部門的通報機構那應該如何設計呢那在這邊我會跟各位從德國的揭弊者保護法的架構去做報告那首先呢針對第一個提綱跟第一個提綱我們是不是在揭弊者保護法呢應該做這個公司部門的合併或者是區隔立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7706.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7724.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這很簡單說,如同之前早上一場的先進門說明大家了解,臺灣針對揭弊者保護法的立法原理基本上超過10年回顧來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7727.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7751.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這一個2012年我受到聯政署的委託做公部門揭弊者保護法的研究然後呈現出來當時的台灣對社會還沒有對揭弊者這個概念有太多的理解所以吹哨者保護法它是一個外來名詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7756.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7758.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
當時聯證署給我的研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7759.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7784.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
委託的法案名稱叫做《機關組織內部不法資訊揭露者保護法》我從來沒有接過那麼長的研究案的名稱所以在這個研究的製作過程後端研理過程後端我們研究團隊決定用揭弊者這三個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7787.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7799.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
從2012年我的研究期末報告提出之後我們也看到相關的立法也定性在揭弊者的定義上 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7802.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7816.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
當時確實是以公部門先行公部門跟私部門是不是要合一或者是要區隔在2012年2013年的8月我們把期末報告提出來之後我們也看到廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7816.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7817.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7846.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7873.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那這個剛剛我們國常委員基本上也認識到這一點知道在相關的法案的研擬過程基本上我們行政部門確實不管針對公部門的29條的法案或者是公私合一的這一種揭弊者保護法的架構跟草案的提出都已經確實已經有了很完整的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7874.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7898.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那我自己認為這是一個很單純的立法技術形式立法政策選擇的問題那基本上呢公布門先行當然怎麼樣看起來簡單多了因為一個資訊透明的政府機關是符合全民期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7899.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7915.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那如果要把私部門也拉進來的話呢我們也看到這邊涉及到幾個比較具體的問題那當然這邊我們在產業發展的跟這個資訊透明的社會期待呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7915.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7916.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
如何做會比較好? |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7938.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7958.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
基本上我們在一開始做這個所謂的這個機關組織內部不法資訊揭露研究的時候很多人問我你在幹什麼你最近在研究什麼東西我就說明了一遍之後這些人通常怎麼樣就稍微理解就是爪耙子條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7962.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7981.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
10年前大家對吹哨者我們台灣社會是有這樣的爪爬者告密者的這樣的認識可是10年後藉由不斷的吹哨者保護立法的必要性還有我們聯合國反貪腐公約對台灣的立法的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7982.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8002.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
基本上我們社會對揭弊者其實是已經有所謂的正義實現的角色的認識所以如果是這樣的話在揭弊者的架構裡面今天在我提供的書面資料上有提供出來基本上要做到三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8003.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8031.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
第一個身份保密第二個揭弊者的工作保障第三個揭弊者相關的人身安全保護那當時我在做這一個揭弊者保護法的原理的時候基本上還加了一個slogan叫三保三保一重塑重塑什麼東西重塑揭弊者的社會角色不要再用告密者跟這一個爪耙子的社會角色去看待他 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8032.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8059.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那經過10年我想重做應該是我們已經做到了然後可是這個三保那會呈現出我們的公部門也好 私部門也好他的一種相關的保護架構的設計那基本上在這邊就要提到揭弊者要揭什麼弊那我想時間的關係我在這邊請我們的這一個我提供出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8061.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8088.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
書面資料的第三頁有把德國在設計這一個吹哨者保護法在它的第二條它呈現了10款的規定然後其中還有一款如列出15個更細項的規定表現出相關可以揭弊的範疇它的揭弊德國揭弊不區隔這一個公部門或者是私部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8089.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8110.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
是透過了一個所謂的受僱者的這一種立法定義把公部門的成員公部門的同仁或者是私部門的企業的員工都定性為受僱者所以受僱者在什麼時候可以去做什麼樣揭弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8111.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8122.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
在他的德國揭弊者保護法的第二條有很明確的表達出來第一在這個他的第一款裡面他表現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8125.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8140.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
第二條的第一款就是剛剛我們陳仲元陳大律師也提到所有的刑法的刑事不法刑法所制裁的行為就是具備有這個刑事不法都可以成為揭弊對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8141.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8159.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
第二個就是這一個相關特定的行政不法行為德國在立吹哨者保護法的時候他起步比台灣晚我們如果以我開始做揭弊者的委託研究來看的話我們是2012年德國起步很晚 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8160.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8189.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
然後可是呢他在2023年5月已經呢通過立法而且在2023年的7月呢也已經開始實行那德國在定這一個吹哨者保護法的時候跟台灣有很類似的立法背景就基本上呢他企業也是一直怎麼樣希望呢這一個吹哨者保護法不要定的太前置使得企業的發展受到一些牽制然後可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8190.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8216.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這一個所以德國曾經有兩版吹哨者保護法然後第一版基本上沒有通過在國會德國的國會就沒有通過因為他怎麼樣他在這一個第二條的第二款把所有行政不法的行為加進來然後他後來在新版裡面他做了約束就是說涉及到人民的身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8218.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8241.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
身命身體自由還有重大的財產利益的行政不法才把它加進來這邊我想相關的這一種立法研擬單位也可以參考其次在這一個第三款以後我們看到就是基本上德國因為它也是歐盟的會員國所以歐盟有些特定的法律直接在德國生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8243.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8256.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
規範了對社會安全的照護所以也可以成為揭弊對象其實在這邊有不當競爭然後我們有看到這一個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8259.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8273.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
相關的這一種個人資料保護最後最後就是在第二條的第10款那我們看到如果公務員違反憲法的忠誠義務的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8274.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8277.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
揭弊者保護法當時我們一再強調一定不是要具名揭弊就是想避免黑函 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8298.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8317.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
居民揭弊有兩個好處第一個 居民我們才知道要保護誰我們的身份保密系統就要做得好所以如果是居民揭弊我想不會有太多我們企業所考量的黑函問題其次 第二點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8317.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8318.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
時間的關係我簡單的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8344.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8347.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
謝謝李副教授 下一位我們請張綺路教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8355.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8376.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
非常謝謝昭偉也感謝各位與會的先進學者事實上這一個案子事實上是歷經了三屆國會坦白說包括我自己在上一屆國會的時候我自己都有版本坦白說非常的感慨為什麼從第九屆第十屆到今天到第十一屆國會從我們2017年我們的這個司改國事會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8382.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8409.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
蔡總統也講得很清楚這個揭弊者保護法是他的這個結論是要推動立法的就在我們第10屆國會有12個版本完全都連審都沒有審現在終於看到一線曙光我很坦白說歷經了3屆國會那延宕了7年我必須直說過去我看這件事我只能說 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8410.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8436.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
沒有那麼多做不到只是我們真的就是技術上不是做不到而是什麼而是我們到底想不想做這件事我直白說啦其實今天也非常謝謝昭緯這個能夠舉辦這樣一個公聽會因為這裡面所談的這些議題我必須直說就像第一個部分到底要不要公私合在一起我還是直說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8437.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8464.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
在聯合國反貪腐公約的第二次國家報告中我們自己交出去的報告就寫得那麼明白我們就是要定定 嚴定一個所謂這個公司這個合併版的這樣子的一個揭弊者保護法這不是就已經講得很清楚了嗎而且我直說好了我們今天所看到的所有的這些弊案包括交通 食安 環境 金融等等或者政府內部的能夠跟私部門沒有關係嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8466.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8483.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我也很直說今天黃國昌委員一直上去在追問我現在很欣慰說我們現在立法院有調查權我真的要問一下能不能請黃委員到時候調一下到底哪一個大金控又花了多少錢來做這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8484.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8508.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
其實沒關係 你可以拉逼 但是讓全民知道嘛 知道一下為什麼嘛 理由說得清楚一點嘛那今天當然政府部門也是配合著在想要轉彎本來已經是要公私合併了 結果2023年又改成說公私分流 行政立法雙軌並行等等這些那現在又說好 乾脆就是上市櫃公司先行 就這樣子就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8508.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8536.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
可是我就直說我們想想看最近從疫情以來的很多可能的弊端我就直白講他真的必須一定要生那種大公司嗎他可能50萬的一個小吃店也可以接一個案子啊也接了很多錢啊這裡面到底有沒有問題我們不知道啊那當然他就不是上市櫃公司囉那所以這個到底我們要怎麼去這個地方難道沒有漏洞嗎其實我很坦白說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8537.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8556.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
立法的這個意旨上我自己擔任了這個4年的立委過去在地10屆的時候其實我很明確的說實話這個立法的問題真的常常不是在於什麼技術啦 細節有時候很多講細節的人只不過是不想要推動這個立法而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8557.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8582.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我當然也承認一個好的揭弊者保護法需要有一些細節要繼續考慮我也誠實告訴各位譬如說大家會談說揭弊動機規範不足被揭弊者自己的權益呢當然要保障啊 這個我也同意保障啊那直接在立法上就把它保障好啊如果它不符合公義揭弊它必須受法律追溯啊OK啊 就立法嘛就把它寫清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8584.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8596.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
他如果說做這些事情他是取得不正的利益那OK啊 追溯他啊那這件事情跟要不要立這個揭弊者保護法會衝突嗎 一點都不會衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8597.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8615.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
也有人說這樣對中小企業衝擊是不是很大比如說因為我們常在揭弊者這個過程中有禁止不利人士的這個措施有一些中小企業只有10個人8個人那你現在就把他先這樣子弄下去之後他是不是沒有彈性沒有關係啊你把他分層處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8617.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8634.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就是技術上是可以做得到的阿如果這種小型的他是不是比較特立阿你今天這個立法只是先一個大原則你也有細則阿你也有這個立法的說明阿你甚至有行政指導你都可以做阿不是做不到甚至也有人說 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8637.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8659.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個保留原職的這個問題是不是要好聚好散這個我同意啊民眾黨的黨版我們召委的版本民進黨林月琴委員的版本這些好聚好散可以啊可以做啊我覺得技術上是可以完成的啊這沒有像想像中這麼難嘛那另外所謂到底揭弊者萬一他是證供犯呢也可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8661.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8661.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8687.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8714.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
從過去這樣三屆國會一直走到今天好不容易真的只有這一屆有曙光原因很簡單因為就是國會結構改變我自己作為一個算是泛政治的學者其實我也直白說公共政策能不能發聲常常就在於那個結構對不對啦過去為什麼蔡總統蔡前總統他自己的政見為什麼就沒有辦法八年來就不能落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8715.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8738.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
因為就不要落實嘛 不是不能落實當時我們在立法院我們都能感受得到啊 民進黨想要過的法案一定鐵定能過嘛他不要過的就永遠不能過嘛 那當時就是 這不是技術也不是什麼研不研究研究早就大家都知道 國外的立法例那麼多非常明確 台灣沒有比較不行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8741.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8760.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
國外參考了一下就可以做了所以這個現在是我們真正改革的一個真正的結構點我必須直說所以我才必須還是要強調這件事非常謝謝這次召委能夠往前這樣子來推動我們不希望看到又是像過去延宕這樣子2500天 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8763.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8782.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
七年來 跨三個 三屆會期 這種結果那當然我也要呼籲我們執政黨 我講白一點今天賴總統也講得很明白了 樹灘打炸治安是他最重要的我們真的非常欣慰看到這件事情 樹灘 真的就是 這個不是樹灘嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8784.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8812.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
公司這些的問題我們敢去聯合國的這個反貪腐公約我們敢去承諾這不就是我們要做的事嗎所以這樣子的事情我也必須正告執政黨真的民眾已經給民進黨兩屆的機會了現在是第三屆了真的非常不容易如果再做不出一點效果來其實我覺得民眾真的會大反彈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8813.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8825.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以我覺得這件事情既然在野黨藍白兩黨通通都這樣的支持執政黨有什麼理由說這件事還做不到呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8827.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8853.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
而且這裡面的就是我剛才一直特別強調的這些大轉彎目的何在呢?目的何在呢?公司之間大轉彎然後一直要縮線不斷的縮線把這個範疇越小越好最好的想法就是根本不要有嘛其實何必這麼害怕呢?理由在哪裡呢?向全民報告一下好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8855.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8882.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那到底又是哪些財團進來的拉比呢?我們本來不就是應該要公開的嗎?那到底是誰呢?理由何在呢?我真的也當然也期待剛剛彭國昌委員在這邊我也會請他 既然我們有了調查權我們這一件事就先來調查一下我們就先來詢問一下法務部到底有沒有哪一個財團先來進來說這件事情我們想清楚說明白 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8882.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8900.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以總的來講我覺得揭弊者保護法並不是像大家想像的一個遙不可及的這樣子的立法其實揭弊者保護這件事情我自己深深的感受非常的深刻因為當時我們也代表民眾黨也提過這樣子的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8901.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8926.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
也開過了無數的公聽會那一直要求要希望做這件事這也所以為什麼是這一屆國會民眾黨他的優先法案之一最優先的一個法案因為就是要為了達成這件事情我覺得其實反貪、疏貪這件事情沒有那麼的困難只是我們的決心問題而已而且現在社會上過去這些林林總總的我們甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8928.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8957.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
結成一點時間當時我們要看到要是我們真的有這一部法律像是我們當時的比如說我們的2021年泰盧格號的這樣的一個事情當時也不是說完全都沒有一點點在人內部有去談這件事但是你看我們就犧牲了49條人命我們這樣子的一個結果那更多更多的在公司治理層面其實我之前我自己待過兩年的裁委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8958.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8975.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
雖然也有先進說我們有公私治理阿我就講白一點那些公私治理現在是不足的絕對絕對不足的整個監理就是有大問題的所以這些當然就是要徹徹底底的要有裡面的人能夠能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8976.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8977.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
林良榮副教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9011.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9024.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
主席以及各位委員 各位前進 大家好那我想那個 前面聽了很多的一些相關的這些揭弊 那我想我就簡單的 其實有幾個提綱 那我就逐一的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9024.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9045.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那過去在回國之後也做了很多相關這方面研究那我先講白了就是作為一個勞動法學者那麼我這裡當然是要來這裡捍衛私部門的勞工一旦受這種揭弊而有不利益的時候那又如何保護他們那當然我是覺得說從剛才很多先進裡面有特別提到就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9048.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9076.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
為什麼對於這個揭弊者這個保護法為什麼會拖延這麼久我覺得有一個基本的概念就是說到底就是說為什麼這個揭弊者保護法的立法政策是什麼那麼其實用這樣子的一個名詞是很容易被誤解而且很容易其實大家會有一種疑慮那像日本來講的話他其實講的是所謂的公義通報者的保護法所以說強調是公義 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9078.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9103.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我就覺得說我們今天不是要強調就是說那個催暴催弊者那麼他要把他污名化我也剛才很贊成那個李聖傑老師講的我們不要把他認為是一個抓爬仔沒有錯但是呢其實就是說呢我會覺得說呢與其說揭弊者我會認為說不如說基於公司的智力然後呢要讓公司更好然後呢所以有這樣子的一個人基於公義 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9104.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9122.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
公義然後出來通報所以說有這樣子的人做這個通報我們是要去保護他所以說我會認為這部法從無論其他的國家來看那麼大部分世界各國裡面實在講的是說因為有一個很勇敢然後做了這樣子的一個通報那麼我們法律要保護他 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9123.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9152.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以我會覺得就是說這部法裡面我會覺得是應該要更強調那麼什麼是基於公義那麼一個勇敢的人那麼做了這樣的一個通報這個通報者要去保護他那麼我也很驚訝就是說這樣子的一個世界上各國普遍對於這樣的一個受僱勞工站出來然後通報然後有不利益然後遭受打壓這種情況之下那我們的相關的主管行政機關的立場是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9154.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9174.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好像我們台灣是一個那個公會很強的國家好像我們台灣是一個那個好像是勞資很對等的國家應該是完全不是吧那如果各位你們隨便上網的話一查那麼呢因為基於這種所謂的這種通報或者所謂的揭弊那麼有太多太多事部門的勞工呢都受到打壓了 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9176.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9201.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以說呢 這個部分的話 那麼我們行政機關的立場是什麼呢那我想 我認為說這個部分呢 其實呢扣連到公司的治理 扣連到最近非常熱門的法律遵守那麼我會覺得呢 這個其實呢 都是這個本身這個法律有很大的意義 所以說我是覺得說應該是從公司的治理 那麼公益的通報的角度來看那麼我這邊有一個幾個提綱 那麼我會想要在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9202.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9219.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
特別說明一下我會覺得這個法案裡面我看到那個草案裡面甚至連公益這兩個字都不太有提到都直接說是揭弊者保護法草案當然我會覺得說這個部分就會涉及到就是說到底這部法 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9219.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9237.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
你的那個立法的那個政策是什麼你是要是去防弊你要去找弊案還是你要是透過這個法律去保護那個通報的人他的不利益待遇呢那麼我會覺得說這個部分呢那麼本來我就是非常支持行政部門應該是要有連任連任這樣子的一個功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9240.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9256.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
可是我們很多相關的這個機關在做啊前面早上很多那個有很多先進有提到了我們包括我們的調查局我們廉政署很多都在做很努力很認真的在做但是呢我會覺得說這個部分就是說呢本來一直全都是要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9257.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9282.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那麼本來行政機關本就是要依法行政這個本來就要受大家監督的那麼是這個法的功能嗎我是認為說這個應該是這個法的一個真正的作用實在是說那麼有很多我們的比較不容易去看到一些不法的行為那麼這些不法的是組織的內部那麼大家通常都是相安無事都不想要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9282.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9286.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
有人勇敢的去站出來了那麼他受到不利打壓了我們要有一部法 那就保護他那麼我就要問你就是說臺灣現行的內國的法律體系裡面有對這麼勇敢的人揭發了一個組織內部的部法有給予他一個法律上的保護嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9298.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9298.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9315.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9339.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
這毋庸置疑啊,但是四部門,四部門就是所謂的盈利嘛,特別是公司嘛當然也不一定是盈利,也就是一些相關的NGO或一些組織那麼呢,這個部分就是說呢,他們的這個公義性是在哪裡那麼我會覺得說,其實我們從過去台灣一路以來,我們發生了很多的一些相關的事件例如說地溝油啊,很多都是這些,都是跟人民的一些利益相關的我會認為呢,應該就是跟公義性有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9341.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9344.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那所以說我會覺得說這個部分如果我們是要著眼於所謂的這個對這種通報者的一個保護的話那麼我在想就是說那麼我們就要看哪一個公部門裡面一個勇敢的人出來保護了出來揭發了 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9357.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9358.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9375.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9401.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
今天你不要說你是一個內部高發啦你不要說隨便啦你隨便很可能看你今天就是好像不太對就要你把你調部門我前幾天還遇到一個案子說有一位穿著比較清涼一點而已然後主管就是說你這樣子穿不行喔就是連基本的服裝儀容的自由在我們台灣社會都不太容易可以有這樣的保護了所以說各位可以知道說那麼這種敢在組織內部裡面去這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9403.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9429.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
做這種通報這種告發的那麼一定是很勇敢那麼所以說這個當然就是說也有需要做如果是一個真實的事件的話當然他就是會要去保護那麼我要講就是說其實一個私部門的一個告發他其實是有很高度的道德衝突跟倫理性的就是說一個受雇的勞工他也很清楚我今天我告發的結果如果不是基於報復的話我會知道我跟公司其實是那個春漢死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9432.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9446.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
其實公司呢他跟員工之間是有命運共同體的他也知道如果今天萬不得已那麼呢我要去揭發的話公司一定會受很大影響公司受很大影響呢他的利益受很大影響我作為他的員工難道我的利益會不受影響嗎一定也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9447.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9461.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這樣的一個思考其實跟公部門的公務員的一個想法不見得完全是一致的所以說我會覺得在公部門裡面他的一個揭發跟市部門的揭發不一樣市部門的一個勞工他更需要保護那麼當然就是說這裡的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9463.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9481.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們就談到就是說 那麼這樣子的一個保護裡面呢 那麼呢 我們可以去討論就是說 那麼呢 到底有哪一些呢就是說呢 就是揭發的結果 是不是也造成企業的影響 我也同意會造成企業的影響那如果會造成企業的影響的話 我們應該是怎麼樣 我們就是應該是說 讓企業的影響要比較小一點例如說 我常常舉例子說 為什麼台灣的勞動檢查不太做 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9488.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9494.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
因為臺灣勞動檢查一做大家就說那企業這樣子的話很為難所以我們勞動檢查都不太有做可是我們臺灣勞動檢查每年要做的時候都會媒體做得很大都是我們要做勞動檢查囉趕快媒體來報一報媒體報得很大可是媒體從來不去報說到底那個檢查結果如何成效如何是怎麼樣的情況這個大家都不關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9509.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9510.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
通報程序有內到外 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9529.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9553.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
是不是我們讓這個通報的時候的勞工不是一開始就去跟立法委員跟媒體跟相關機關是不是應該要先進行所謂的內部的一個程序讓公司的內部治理有一個調整的機會那麼我們可不可以去考慮說所謂的要揭發不法的一個情勢是不是可以限縮我們是不是特別是有關刑事上的犯罪還是重大行政不法 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9553.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9574.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們是可以限縮齁那麼當然我們可以去怎麼樣子呢還可以去做所謂通報時候的這樣子的一個保密好實際上不足了那麼我最後呢我的那個資料裡面有講就是說那行政部門應該如何防灘防灘當然很重要啊但是我這邊沒有時間講了我要講的就是說齁如果我們行政機關呢能夠把他的一個行政作為會議資料能夠更公開的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9575.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9601.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
更公開那麼我會覺得其實全民來監督其實有沒有這麼法律也不重要但是我們行政的一個相關資料都非常難取得非常難以知道是不是我們是不是應該有立法有這樣的一個行政的一個相關的會議程序程序資料可以上網那麼其實最近在日本我看到他們那個內部高發他們是以四部門為主他們也是用公部門結果公部門適用的結果全部爆發的結果都是在地方政府為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9602.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9623.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
因為地方政府很多都是胡搞瞎搞胡搞瞎搞的結果呢結果就變成是大家說哇原來地方政府原來是這樣子這樣子的大問題喔那麼我會覺得另外一個問題日本也是最近說因為這個AI時代發展AI時代發生很多資訊呢它其實也影響了很多的一個公益揭弊的這樣子的一個促進它的發展那以上簡單 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請葛傳宇主任發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9633.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9633.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9646.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9650.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
大家好,我是葛傳宇,我是台灣藝術大學通識中心的主任。同時,我也是之前連續擔任6年國際透明組織的會籍認證委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9668.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9673.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
反貪腐是不應該有顏色也沒有顏色這是人民的共同心願有效的監督政府必須要有屠龍刀跟倚天劍刀劍合一才能夠見效 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9697.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9720.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
國會調查權就是屠龍刀而公義揭弊者保護法就是倚天見從國際趨勢還有確保政府連結透明這兩個觀點立法是不可或缺的這也是我們大家的共識而不應該是政黨對立的爭議話題這是我的結論接下來我要論述了我本人長期從事參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9723.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9751.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
秘書處位於德國柏林的國際透明組織這個透明組織從1995年到1993年到現在長期領導全球的反貪運動我們連政署有長期的合作關係互動非常密切今年的年底會有更進一步的交流各位要了解國際透明組織他這些年來最重要的有很重要的攻擊包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9753.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9772.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
OECD的反行會公約還有聯合國的反貪腐公約他的幕後都是大國配合NGO尤其是國際透明組織促成的那我自己本身連續擔任6年的國際透明組織的會級認證委員專門審查各國的會級還有他們的各國在各國倡議反貪的績效跟表現我自己歸納出來審查各國的反貪腐經驗就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9783.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9807.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沒有法律保障的貪腐爆料或檢舉效果是非常差的會遭到報復因為人民害怕沒有法律保障會遭到報復而不敢檢舉有時候連匿名檢舉都不敢更嚴重的是他等於變相鼓勵政府濫權肆無忌憚地打擊政治對手 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9810.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9836.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我特別要提醒我們在台灣是自由民主的社會我們比起很多我審查過的開發中國家我覺得真的很欣慰至少我有言論自由我可以表達書裡面從來沒有找過我麻煩反而我們還是長期的合作我真的很感謝我們政府部門的寬宏大量更重要其實是來自我們憲法架構的保護那既然憲法架構有保護接下來我要論述了 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9837.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9857.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
立法委員本來就有憲法賦予的高度保障的言論免責權再加上新增的國會調查權可以說是對立法委員相對的保障完善可是人民呢?我們人民是沒有這些特權的只有抽象的言論自由而不是言論免責權 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9860.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9888.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
如果沒有賦予人民適當的法律保障鼓勵他們尤其是內部人尤其是內部人合法的揭發貪腐弊端的話就有可能發生心有餘而力不足的果足不前還有他們會害怕被秋後算帳因此而長期的活在陰影裡面擔心受怕我們政府其實是有法律義務法律的義務要立法保障揭弊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9889.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9899.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
就法理而言,台灣已經施行聯合國反貪腐公約施行法也就是說當我們把國際公約轉化成國內法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9900.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9915.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們臺灣政府就有法律義務要遵循聯合國反貪腐公約有關於保護揭弊者的立法規定更何況我要特別提醒在座2018年還有2023年我們臺灣先後兩次舉行大規模而盛大的聯合國反貪腐公約國際審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9924.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9952.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
各位知道嗎先後各有5次大咖的國際專家來台灣審查我們台灣的這個反貪腐的國家廉政建設跟績效其中這10位專家他們非常重視的其中一個話題就是為什麼我們的揭弊者保護法嚴當不前啊為各位講一個小故事我自己接觸因為兩次我都全程參與這裡面也有很多我長期互動的好朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9954.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9982.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
第一次2018年我們國際審查的時候我不曉得馮署長那時候在不在會場光是這個議題立法聖結你應該在嘛光是這個議題我們討論了一兩個小時國際審查委員一直追問一直追問為什麼其實那時候對我們台灣是充滿了期待跟肯定的因為至少我們提出了草案我們那個時候羅秉成政委還很有信心的說我們就會積極的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9984.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10008.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
可是到了2023年第二次國際審查的時候各位知道嗎整個審查會議談到這題的時候很快就帶過了沒有進度啊為什麼沒有進度因為審查委員後來跟我講他說沒有什麼好討論的啊你們五年來進度是零啊而且法案還退回到法務部廉政署的科長的電腦裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10010.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10026.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
各位想想看我們花了這麼大的力氣舉辦聯合國反貪腐公約的國際審查不就是希望能夠大內宣也大外宣讓國際來肯定我們的廉政績效嗎結果呢你看我們自己打臉不是很可惜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10027.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10028.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
國際審查委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10049.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10067.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
主長部長您知道嗎?到了第二次國際審查的時候有一百多項國際建議當然有些是很多肯定的但是更多的是他們提出問題來認為我們嚴當沒有解決各位想想看第三次國際審查我們要如何誠實的面對來自這些大咖的國際委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10071.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10097.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這個法務部一向很自豪我們台灣的國際青蓮印象指數CPI排名逐年進步上升這是事實可是部長署長還有在座各位長官你們知道嗎我們在國外國大咖學者的文獻裡面都都是英文文獻這些大咖文件裡面至少有三次他提到台灣的廉政署是紙老虎paper tiger三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10099.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10119.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
在座的各位先進各位想想如果您是國際讀者請問您是相信廉政署的新聞稿還是相信外國大咖學者的學術評論這對我們國家形象是不是很大的影響跟打擊但是我們不能因為這樣子就斷絕交往我反而覺得我們更要加強國際交流讓他們了解我們是有決心而且我們真的有在做事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10121.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10125.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
政府各部會在國際審查的時候的抗拒心態我講一下我們在國際審查的時候很多各機關的代表他們要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10150.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10172.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
就說這個我回去問一下要嘛說我今天會後晚上或明天再提供對不對可是各位你知道嗎國際審查委員認為什麼要嘛你沒有準備嘛要不然你授權不足嘛那你來開會幹嘛對不對為什麼不能我問完之後你馬上打電話回去就資料就回來了可是常常發生這樣已經兩次了國際審查委員覺得那你這樣不是浪費我時間嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10174.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10186.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
很可惜了政府跨部門的各單位在立法的過程中抗拒立法的心態其實我歸納一下主要是很擔心會發生苛刺海現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10188.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10215.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
就是濫訴濫控我認為這其實是對刑法的誤解而且日本的實務經驗正好相反2004年日本公義通報者保護法施行以來嚴格的正當法律程序並沒有出現濫訴濫控的現象而且我知道我們台灣政府行政部門的版本一直都非常嚴謹的規範有三項保護政策剛才聖傑老師有提到所以我其實是有信心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10216.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10237.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
因此本人建議為了能夠明確有效的執法應該把公義揭弊者保護法立法目的就明定規定限縮在依聯合國反貪腐公約僅限揭發公部門或私部門的貪腐以及侵佔背信罪其他像人權勞工食品安全等等公共議題暫時不要納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10239.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10260.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
不要納入結果這樣子但他們還是可以用單行法規或行政命令的方式准用揭弊者保護法這樣的方式才能夠讓我們這部法律趕快上路而且是嚴謹的上路僅限縮在公益揭弊者保護揭發貪腐就公司部門的貪腐以上是我簡單的報告謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10264.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10266.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
主席,我們公聽會與會的學者先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10279.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10280.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
政務機關首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10297.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10297.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10325.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10325.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10348.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10349.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
公聽會委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10369.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10391.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
在特許行業的部份銀行因為是涉及到大眾資金銀行法45條之一他也說要求要建立內部控制及集合制度這也是以內控為主另外涉及到大眾食品安全相關的食品業者在食安法也有第13條這裡面又具體的指出對於檢舉人身份資料要嚴守秘密甚至要給予獎勵這是既有的法當中的一些相關規定我們再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10392.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10409.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那目前呢 金融業他基本上還是以內機內控法尊制度以內控優先 舉例來講銀行的職員發現上司的禮專疑似挪用客戶資金他可以選擇向主管機關或內部單位檢舉但是因為銀行法第45條之一的立法理由 他說銀行應先建立內部控制制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10410.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10426.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
作為內部積核之依據﹐使金融危機在發生初期﹐及得掌握基先事實上他還是強調的﹐內部應該有一個制度﹐先從內部去進行必要的調查所以我們看到最後的結果大概會怎麼樣走就往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10428.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10445.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
根據銀行業的內控集合辦法第3條之2這當中就有提到檢舉人要發現有疑似違法的情形他可以匿名檢舉但是會有內部的專責部門先來調查有無違司如果有就再由相關的主管機關比如金管會開始調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10446.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10447.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
到目前為止我們就一個疑問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10463.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10463.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
中小企業佔全體企業98%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10483.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10507.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那如果一個5人的公司20人的公司那麼通常遇到這種情況會有什麼情況呢舉例來講曾經就發生過有離職員工去烏龍爆料照說如果你對於你所處的企業有些弊端損失到公共的利益你可以向政府部門檢舉但是我們實務上看到的可能就直接跟媒體爆料透過報導那麼引起相關單位的注意那開始進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10508.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10508.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10527.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10550.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那基本上呢 我們另外在調查中受理揭弊的單位的保密義務範圍可能包括監察院 政風 檢警調 其他部門都有一個適用不公開的原則對於揭弊者的身份都應該要保守但是對於被揭弊者以及揭弊的弊案內容比如說目前所謂的偵查不公開事實上也是相對的在案情未明朗之前也避免因為偵查的過程當中造成被偵查者的一個名譽的損失所以這種情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10555.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10574.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
除了對於揭弊者的身份的保密之外對於揭弊者內容的案件的保密要到什麼程度這是一個我們可以探討的範圍最後最後我們來看到調查後如果是惡意揭弊者的身份是不是同樣的保密呢如果為真當然揭弊者要保持他的身份避免被做不當的不利的處分但是如果所接的弊案是假而且是惡意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10575.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10575.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
謝謝總召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10605.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10622.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所有學術專家跟登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢那我們接著進行政府機關代表的發言請各位政府機關代表待會就就書面資料以外的部分做普通說明就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10623.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10623.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
法務部政務部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10657.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10664.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
主席還有委員還有與會的學者專家還有大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10665.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10694.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
法務部推動揭弊者保護法草案的這個期間我們非常感謝委員跟各位先進提供非常寶貴的一個建議那在此感謝各位委員跟先進那今天奉要列席貴委員會的一個公聽會希望能促進社會各界重視揭弊者的一個權利的保護那本部是一直是積極的一個推動相關的立法工作我想剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10695.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10718.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
學者：專家對這方面加以肯定我們也是非常注意收集各界的接力緊就這次公聽會討論的提綱我做一個補充的說明首先強調本部的立法隊公事部門揭弊者的保護都是同樣的重視保護方法當然有很多不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10719.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10719.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10742.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10764.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
本部書面報告本部是從101年起推動立法工作一直都是公私分立公佈先行這是剛才有學者做一個很充分的介紹後來是因為社會與民情陸續調整為公私合併那一部分實在我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10764.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10779.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
有做一個努力的一個推動那後來變成是一個公事合併算是三位公事版這些都是有擴大保護範圍到私部門但也聽到不同的一個聲音譬如剛才有提到以後濫用是不是有一些的黑暗的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10780.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10780.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10797.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10817.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
有其他一些的困難所以在今年2月本部會第一行政任職調整為公私分流行政立法雙軌並行一方面考量社會對公部門青年要求也比較高而且公部門法律也比較完善對這個弊端也比較能夠特定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10818.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10836.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
希望透過行政指導來輔導私部門,讓公司保留對營運及人事運用的彈性,以有循序方式來深化揭弊的保護,再逐步將私部門納入揭弊法制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10837.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10859.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
有關提綱二部分：對委員提出這個提綱：各產業界各別訂定揭弊的保護措施：讓企業自己的規模、產業特性：及人事控管者成本等這個做法：就是要讓施部門：能夠符合自己保護的一個做法：其實是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10861.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10878.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
目前的立法政策其實是其實是契合的是契合的可以使企業更量身能夠個案就自己的量身定做符合自己需求的一個揭弊條文也可以深化揭弊者保護的理念那我想這可以加速成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10880.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10880.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10896.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10924.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
立法目的如果偏重弊端的一個發覺 發見真實會以外部通報來做一個優先但我們也擔心這個烏龍爆料會影響機關跟企業的一個信任力保護揭弊者權利同時重視被揭弊者這個權利的一個保護另外我們也是基於內部自行建立內部通報機制也有這個一個必要性所以內部通報優先或者內部通報並行都是揭弊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10925.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10925.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
公聽會．委員．學者．專家． |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10952.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10981.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
推動立法：那個修法的：立法的重要的一個參考以上報告敬請主席各位指教謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長那下一位我們請司法院行事廳副廳長陳副廳長好 沒有補充意見好 謝謝副廳長那下一位我們請權敍部法規司副市長藍副市長好 沒有補充的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10982.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10986.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那下一位我們請行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處副處長副處長有沒有補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10995.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11018.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
今天的公聽會發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供很多寶貴的意見今天各位所有的發言內容還有書面意見我們都會列入記錄刊登公報並且製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及本日出席留言參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11020.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11024.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家現在散會 |