| IVOD_ID |
16072 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16072 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024070332 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-05T10:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-05T19:30:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
09:00:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0d56277c358e1b52df0e5f15b7d87a1ad4f242ceca957783960a4db4c7780dec55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-05T11:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商有關憲法法庭通知本院就本院委員柯建銘等51人、行政院、總統賴清德等聲請案聲請暫時處分部分委任訴訟代理人陳述意見相關事宜。二、研商有關「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」、「證券交易法第十四條條文修正草案」、「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」及「電業法第四十九條條文修正草案」等四案（國民黨黨團提議）三、考試院人事同意權案相關事宜。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:29:59 - 19:30:00 |
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我知道這個是你先處理掉,很快我們把它處理掉就好了,這樣怎麼規定?先好心怎麼規定就怎麼規定嘛,好那現在等二統召是吧?院長你剛剛講的是下午時間是兩點還是兩點半?兩點半因為我們不是說我們今天這個要搞什麼? |
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2569.195 |
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2584.971 |
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我們這個人應該很快反正一般就一般,沒有關係啦反正其他不完,因為其他都晚上,下禮拜也可以協商那現在整理本人、小副 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2655.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2675.124 |
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來各位黨團幹部非常感謝大家今天大家繼續來這裡協商副總召到柯總召了我們柯總召可能注意打個電話我們再等一下柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2693.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2717.239 |
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好謝謝所有的黨團幹部都已到那謝謝大家我們今天第一項協商的議題是有關憲法法庭的通知等相關事宜因為憲法法庭有最新的通知請我們本院推派機關代表三人、訴訟代理人三人、鑑定人兩人這兩件通知我們就合併處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2718.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2739.94 |
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本件因為有時效性,過去針對司法院罕見本院推派的代表或委任訴訟代理人、鑑定人歷來均由申請黨團以外之其他黨團推派。這次的我們憲法裁判申請人是民進黨黨團柯建銘總召。我們循例 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2740.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2748.287 |
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草泥協商結論的草稿,然後等一下我們會發下去。我來等一下我會先唸一下。唸完之後請各位黨團表達意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2771.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2771.857 |
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一起談好了一起談 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
3227.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
3242.114 |
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各位黨團幹部第三件剛才印的憲法法庭通知書請問拿到手上了嗎?好,都拿到了那我這個我們黨團協商的結論草稿我念一下,念完之後請大家發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
3244.259 |
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3263.811 |
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時間113年7月5日星期五上午11點地點異常三樓會議室決定事項一有關憲法法庭通知本院就委員柯建銘等51人、行政院、總統賴清德、監察院等聲請案請本院推派代表、訴訟代理人及言辭辯論鑑定人各黨團同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
3267.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
3281.53 |
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由國民黨團推薦兩位、臺灣民眾黨團推薦一位擔任本次申請案含暫時處分的部分之訴訟代理人。本院機關代表一、上述比例推派委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
3282.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
3308.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有關推薦專家學者擔任延遲辯論鑑定人部分由國民黨團、臺灣民眾黨團各推薦一位訴訟代理人名單請於7月5日星期五下午4時之前其他名單請於7月8日星期一中午12時之前送至法治局我們來辦理後續委任及呈報等相關事宜好,就針對這個協商結論的草案請各黨團發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
3312.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
3326.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
請柯建銘總召國民黨團請準備有關於今天曹雅詳的結論這個倒是比較奇怪曹雅詳大家談完以後才能夠有共識來寫一個結論出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
3329.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
3345.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
無由由這個院長這邊先寫一個結論出來,要我們吞下去。這個程序完全顛倒。過去也沒有這樣的主張過。過去也沒有這樣的處理過。我記得第一次在朝鮮的時候,講到最後的時候,要拿出一張寫上結論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
3347.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
3362.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那時候黃岡昌委員還抗議,你已經準備好了嗎?那這更嚴重,這個還沒開的時候已經是有定見的,就要大家接受。這個是第一個問題,法院長以後盡量避免這樣的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
3363.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
3389.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
未開始的健康保險法條文修正草案協商都聽你的就好。你是主持人而已。我不知道這個你的幕僚如何把這個都弄出來。這個幕僚都有問題。這可能會造成你跟柯文毅相思。那今天我們要談的就是說當然有兩個問題嘛。第一個暫時處分了,馬上7月10號要開始嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
3390.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
3400.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第二條條文修正草案有關事件的主體、本文的部分,八一六要開始。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
3401.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
3429.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那有關於這樣的一個程序,過去事件在手不少啊過去大概都有慣例以及憲法訴訟法上面的規定那我們照慣例或照規定來處理就好了這是第一點一點就是說憲法訴訟法怎麼規定那當然我們就照怎麼規定嘛對不對它裡面有憲法訴訟法裡面有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
3431.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
3440.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
四個申請機關申請人代表加三個申請代理人過去五八五很多我都去過那過去就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
3458.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
3483.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以這是事件奇葩啦事件奇葩因為事件奇葩的時候它變成就是說大法官在處理這個的時候也會考慮到公平性也就是說申請人現在有有民進黨黨團有行政院有總統府那現在又增加人選台所以有申請人有四個四個在金融代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
3484.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
3490.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那另外一個另外一個就是說我們立委員是當事者 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
3491.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
3519.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那也要派人去嘛,因為兩兆才能夠來憲法庭去論告吧。那我們面對的是第一個是什麼?是暫時處分程序的裁定,那在七月十號很快就到了,八月六號就是原則被論的,那整天一整天的。那七月十號它的程序性我們看了一下大概就是這樣啦,七月十號程序性就是說,你四個機關給你三十分鐘, |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
3520.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
3545.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你四個機關請做七分半,你們自己去調然後四個機關裡面要一個獎或幾個獎,那是你們當然是讓你四個機關共用三十分鐘的時間那立法院這邊,立法院它表示對立法院照的尊重也是三十分鐘那立法院怎麼派?當然有立法院的機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
3546.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
3561.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
乃至於人才身家自動代理人。」因為完全法庭化的嘛。他說要給市立法院幾個新聞代表,那是等一下我們看他怎麼回嘛。所以,不管誰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3563.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3587.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
緊急暫時處分和實體事件都一定有機會代表。」所以我今天早上看了黃莊委員開記者會說怎麼立法院怎麼沒有機會代表?這個是有所誤解。因為先往事完也緊急來訪了嘛,等下大家看文嘛。第二個,他的程序只有30分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3589.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3607.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
然後還有一個中途,一個上午就結束了。現在一個早上,接下來有一個中途,有現在所有的大法官,他問誰就問誰,他可以問申請方,也可以問居民代表,他要問誰就要去,因為這個不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3608.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3636.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
叫他結婚的他是法官他在審議他自己指揮訴訟他可以問誰他可以問誰他把這個這個因為一個總統把這個問完以後他們當何怡婷他自己會裁定這個是隨時就如此將來實體的憲法八月一號也是這樣所以我們今天要面對就是說法怎麼規定我們就照法來但是呢以這一張的這樣的寫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3639.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3662.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
機關代表所有地方全部完全排除民進黨這也不對因為立法院不是只有國民黨、民眾黨、兩黨只有三黨同時這個地方我們也應該派機關代表機關代表所以這個部分大家等一下來好好討論一下到底立法院要不要派機關代表那派機關代表當然是秘書長嘛因為有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3665.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3683.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
其實申請的時候有很多程序性違憲要緊急處分,我們都有提不然說實際的或是暫時處分的,我們都有對於程序性違憲提出我們的看法,大概是這樣謝謝柯總召,國民黨團請發言,民眾黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3689.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3712.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
院長我想先針對民進黨團到底能不能推派訴訟代理人這一點我們表示有本黨團的意見我想基於這個利益衝突迴避的原則剛才柯總長講說不應該排除民進黨來指推派訴訟代理人我想這一點完全違反利益衝突迴避的一個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3714.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3729.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為民進黨團這次是主張立法院三讀通過法律違憲的申請人所以基於利益衝突迴避的原則當然民進黨你不可能是訴訟當事人你是原告那你又是被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3730.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3737.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3753.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3773.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以這是一個非常矛盾衝突的一個法律原則非常清楚就是民進黨應該要做利益迴避的所以我想幹議院的我們的一個建議就是說由國民黨兩位民眾黨一位這樣來推派訴訟代理人這完全符合法律的原理原則以上謝謝謝謝國民黨團歡迎請民眾黨團歡迎民進黨團請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3779.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3785.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
二、跟院長還有各黨團的代表先說明一下第一個事情是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3787.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3811.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為我們一開始的時候從媒體上面所看到的憲法法庭的通知書那個時候申請人是由立法委員柯建銘等51人還有行政院以及總統賴清德這個是第一份他們的通知書 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3813.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3833.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那第一份的通知書老實說我們藉由媒體看到裡面的內容的時候有一點驚訝為什麼說驚訝因為在那個通知的事項裡面他是通知本院委任訴訟代理人三個人要我們呈報然後下禮拜三去進行準備程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3835.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3859.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那個時候我看到了這份通知書的內容我非常的驚訝我非常的驚訝因為在憲法訴訟當中基本上有中立的憲法法庭有申請人有相對人申請人跟相對的機關依照憲法訴訟法的規定都是當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3860.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3888.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
當事人在憲法訴訟程序當中本來就有聽審權的正當法律程序保障怎麼會憲法司法院通知本院的時候只有訴訟代理人而沒有所謂的機關代表這不僅僅是違反了目前在憲法訴訟法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3890.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3906.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
對於當事人的這個概念因為我再強調一次依照憲法訴訟法規定很清楚申請人跟相對的機關都稱為當事人在憲法訴訟法當中當事人的這個概念出現在非常多的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3907.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3930.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
當事人的這一個身份享有程序上面各式各樣聽審權的保障跟正當法律程序的保障所以我當初看到了憲法法庭的這份通知書的時候我覺得非常的驚訝怎麼會沒有當事人的代表只有訴訟代理人呢這是一件非常奇怪的事情那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3931.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3960.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我才對外說憲法法庭這樣子的一個通知恐怕是有問題的因為不管是依照憲法訴訟法施行以前那個時候依照大審法的規定大法官審理案件法的規定所實際上面實踐的結果當本院是相對的機關的時候本院過去事實上也有派代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3961.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3987.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
出席。不管是在相關的大法官的會議結事當中本院事實上都有派代表出席所以我才做這樣子提出這樣的懷疑那剛剛院長又發了一份新的憲法法庭的通知書那這份新的憲法法庭的通知書我看應該是今天才收文 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3988.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3998.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
也就是憲法法庭今天才發通知給本院那今天發通知給本院的時候他裡面的說明事項就改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3999.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
4023.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
他在裡面的說明事項今天所補發的另外一份通知書當中說明及注意事項的第二點他就改變了之前前一份通知書的內容了因為前一份通知書是沒有提到本院可以派代表但是在這一份今天早上本院所剛剛收到的通知書上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
4025.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
4052.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
四、貴院經憲法法庭指定為上開聲請案的相關機關請於準備程序由機關代表至多三人、協同訴訟代理人至多三人到庭參與準備程序。今天來的這份通知書就比較符合我們目前憲法訴訟法的規定相對的機關作為當事人當事人當然有聽審請求權 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
4054.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
4076.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
當然應該有機會到憲法法庭去表述意見除了當事人的代表以外還有訴訟代理人今天這一份的通知書今天早上這份的通知書才去免除掉了上一份的通知書只要我們判訴訟代理人的缺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
4078.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
4107.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第二個部分針對剛剛院長所提議在本院所推派的代表院長所提議的是向臺灣民眾黨黨團競表同意因為在整個憲法訴訟的三角結構當中今天民主進步黨由柯建銘等51位委員他們事實上是居於什麼?聲請人的位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
4109.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
4131.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
在憲法訴訟的兩照對立的結構當中我們是相對機關申請人如果還可以推派代表參與相對人所推派出來的機關代表那基本上是根本破壞了兩照的結構那進一步的問題是說在這個具體的憲法爭議上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
4138.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
4160.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
申請人的位置跟申請人的主張相對人的位置跟相對人的主張本來就處於兩照對立結構的狀態因此依照今天院長所做的建議才是符合目前憲法訴訟法他所規範的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
4161.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
4178.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那否則的話,申請人還可以去決定相對人他所要提出的主張以及各式各樣在憲法訴訟上面的供給防禦事實上是一件非常荒謬的事情那以上是我們的見解,謝謝請民進黨黨團發言好,請吳思瑤幹事長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
4191.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
4207.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我想就針對今天討論的這個代表機關代表的部分來表達我的看法針對剛剛這個玉女的結論當然我們也認同說還沒有協商之前先有一個玉女的結論似乎就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
4207.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
4228.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
對於院長的立場或是所謂機關代表立法院的立場都已經先做了預設我覺得這是完全不必要的預設前提這不利於我們開放性的來討論這個真的也希望未來可以來檢視那我分幾個面向來分享我的觀點就是說機關代表的立場是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
4229.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
4245.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就我認為立法院是一個國家的憲政機關立法院的機關代表在任何的議案上他都應當是一個中性的、中立的機關代表因為憲法法庭受理的像我們這一類都是法規範的憲法法庭的審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
4247.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
4266.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
他在處理的會有各種的法規範今天可能是國會擴權法案剛好是一個比較有剛剛黃國昌委員講的他認定的良造對立可能在不同的法案議案申請法規範的憲法法庭的時候各政黨的意見是可能今天是國眾在一起可能下一次是民進黨跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
4267.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
4272.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
4284.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
4299.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以才會主張說機關代表應當就是譬如說我們的秘書長或是院長或者是我們議事處的代表我不知道就是說是一個機關的代表當然我們也希望院長就應當是一個議事中立的代表這我要再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
4300.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
4316.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那我剛剛一直等一下可以請秘書長說明一下因為我在立法院也許比較之前我所印象所及的這個319證調會的時候那時候也是憲法法庭也是會請立法院派機關代表的那個時候立法院是沒有派 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
4317.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4342.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那我不知道當時有沒有草野協商怎麼去做成這個決定這樣那我也現在試圖在找譬如說我印象所及以前的法規範的這種申請應當也都會邀請立法院派機關代表嗎那過去有依不同的法規範的這個本身政黨的立場不同而先去切割了所謂的兩造嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4344.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4356.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
過去會這樣做嗎?」例如說在戶籍法案賴子文的那個案子會因為先預設了那時候民進黨跟國民黨立場也不一樣來切分機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4358.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4376.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
三條條文修正草案的相對性。」我覺得這個是很有問題的因為任何的議案未來都有可能當然我們希望國會大家都是充分的自治我們在做出任何的立法修法都不要違逆憲法的精神但如果都會有涉及這樣子的違憲的風險爭議才會去送憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4379.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4407.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
但未來極有可能不同的法案的本身可能要送大法官解釋的時候難道都要依那個議案本身哪些政黨的立場不同而去切分嗎這個是一個知識體大的事情所以我們才會認為說兩個方式嘛我個人認為這不是一個結論機關代表就是要中性的那中性的要嘛就都是我們的機關代表就是我們的這個國家公務體系的這個機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4410.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4437.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
或者是慰求公正你的機關代表你不能排除任何一個政黨對不對這才是一個均等所以我覺得這個就要去預設在面對憲法法庭的時候當然這個案子國會擴選的法案裡頭是國眾本身是一個一方民進黨是一方那民進黨剛好是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4438.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4440.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4455.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4471.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這個以後就都很有問題第二個我也要挑戰如果我再次說立法院應當是一個中立的機關它對於任何議案都不應當有它的立場的判斷今天在面對憲法法庭要求立法院派的這個機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4473.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4501.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
如果如韓院長你們所擬出來的今天就已經是機關代表裡頭排除了民進黨而是國民黨跟民眾黨派人的話是不是也代表你們坐實了在國會擴權的法案的本身你們立法院院長韓國瑜領導的院長的立法院韓國瑜院長領導的立法院就國會擴權法案的本身你就是站在國民黨跟民眾黨的一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4503.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4526.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個是一個核心的議題喔你今天派的代表因為剛剛黃國昌委員一直講兩兆兩兆然後這個施民委員一直講利益迴避那你真的還擬出一個由國民黨可以派代表來做為立法院的機關代表民眾黨可以派然後民進黨沒有好像民進黨黨團不是立法院的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4527.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4553.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那是不是在這個議案本身的立場上您就坐實了整個國會擴權法案立法院本身的機關代表的立場就是挺國民黨跟民眾黨的擴權版本這全民都在看喔所以回到正辦就是我說的任何一個議案立法院會去申請釋憲這個不同政黨在當家都會嘛因為任何的立法如果涉及有違憲疑慮的話憲法法庭就是最終的裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4554.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4579.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那都應當當機關代表又是立法院本身是一個中立性的代表所以就either way全部都是立法院的官方代表好我用官方或者是那各政黨都有均等的權利真的不要讓政黨的政治立場或政策立場去決定了立法院的機關立場因為那就有政治性的判斷在裡面這是非常不宜的謝謝吳思瑤委員請國民黨團發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4588.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4604.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
紅書議員感謝院長今天我想召開這個憲法法庭通知書7月5號我們收到今天那簡單的回覆幾個部分開宗明義憲法法庭通知書裡面就有提到申請人立法委員柯建銘等51位 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4605.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4633.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那所以說申請人立法委員柯建銘等51位他就是申請人的代表那既然他就已經是申請方了他對照的就是立法院這邊我們是要來說明的部分那怎麼如果說如同剛剛我們所提到的就說今天民進黨黨團51人他又是申請人他又可以代表立法院來做這個機關代表的話那不就是變成是這個邏輯是矛盾的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4634.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4649.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
再者,剛剛我們民進黨團的代表也有提到是說這個機關代表要中立那我想請教立法院如果說要求中立那申請人有行政院有監察院那他們的立場是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4651.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4667.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
行政院跟監察院已經不中立了在這件事情上面他們已經沒有中立的一個情況他有他們的主張跟立場也因此居然是我們的這個黨團的代表裡面是要求說立法院要中立但是對於行政院對於監察院他們的立場是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4668.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4689.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
再者,其實我們也不是第一次討論所謂的釋憲案也不是第一次討論所謂的立法院推派委員推派代表我們這邊馬上就查出幾個部分第一,在民國89年的時候有針對核能、核市場的停止執行預算的釋憲案的部分請立法院推派三名代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4691.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4699.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
當時就是由草野協商之後推派高裕仁委員、周協會委員、謝其他委員三位代表出席。再近一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4700.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4724.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
民國93年當時的立法委員柯建銘等93人認為319槍擊案真相調查委員會有抵觸憲法的疑慮,申請釋憲當時也是由立法院到最後推派的是高育仁委員跟陳敬興委員兩位國民黨籍的委員代表參加319槍擊案真相調查委員會條例的釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4728.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4751.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
當時的民進黨團並沒有參與立法院的代表那民進黨團的委員在幹嘛呢?民進黨委員他們就是擔任立法委員柯建銘等93人的申請人代表我特別找到這個新聞當時民進黨的申請人代表就是以游青委員跟吳東升委員為代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4752.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4775.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以在大法官會議召開憲法法庭的時候雙方推派代表出席陳述意見民進黨以立委游青跟吳東昇為代表主張真相調查委員會違憲而立法院的代表則是以高育仁跟陳靜心為代表所以我想過去到現在都有前例可循 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4776.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4796.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個運理我想也不是結論這個是讓一個guideline能夠讓我們三個黨團的代表坐下來三長能夠有一個guideline能夠互相來討論當然內容文字我們都沒有訂件也都可以修正但精神是什麼精神是既然是申請人你就不應該變成是機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4797.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4814.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
既然是機關代表就應該要排除申請人我想這才是符合一開始所謂兩照雙方各自立場也許不同但是有公平的機會互相闡述各自的意見這才是符合這一次我們今天討論協商的一個重點以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4821.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4834.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我就提一個,剛才就是說我們的立法院是不是是一個中立的,還是一個是不是應該有代表那我看那個8月6號的言辭辯論 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4838.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4852.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
第一條就是要針對這個職權刑事法還有刑法141條之一的立法程序立法程序是否有重大瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4853.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4872.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那立法程序這個誰該來回答哪一個政黨能夠代表立法程序一定是立法院一定是議事機關一定是主持會議可能是院長或秘書長因為你們必須要為自己所主持的這個程序來辯護因為現在直接質疑到 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4873.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4889.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
議事程序的瑕疵問題的所以這看起來也不是哪一個政黨能夠代表說這程序沒有問題能夠辯護的所以看起來是應該有自己的立場應該是沒有問題的以上我表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4893.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4919.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好,謝謝民眾的發言,請民進黨。好,剛才仔細聆聽幾位的意見,坦白講,我的可期而不可期,大家冷靜的想想看。今天我是要在這裡協商,如果讓整個試驗程序能夠能夠進行,能夠能夠,當然這只要還是大法官自己的看法,他做了什麼判,並不是,這個比水能多, |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4920.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4942.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
比人多好打錢架有用的嘛。」這是講道理的時刻。第一個,針對剛才黃國昌委員所說明的,坦白講,他講的是沒有錯。因為我才一看他講的記者會,我覺得黃國昌講的怎麼可能大,這個大法會書記處理會糊塗至此。因為機關代表基本上沒有機關代表的指定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4945.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4964.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那所以這樣情形底下,卡特我們不知道我們馬上要插槍,因為他先發給我們文是怎麼樣,他先發這個,三號先發一個,然後再發一個之後,接著三號說有這個程序要進行,然後再發給我們說那程序的內容是怎麼樣,它不是一次就來的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4966.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4981.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以我剛才講就是說他說30分鐘然後大法官問又代表業務室才發來了那第一次發來的時候當然我後來聽記者會黃國昌、孫燕東等我節目的意見怎麼會有可能發生這個事情呢?於是我就打電話給大法官所謂廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4991.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
5017.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為他主持那個那經常是他的行政人員王浩青我說怎麼可能發生這種事情我說我們經常在協商文太晚了所以他緊急發來我想這個已經補正了我們就不再辯論第二個有關黎世民及洪孟凱乃至於洪國昌及吳征仁的意見坦白講我們現在機關代表是誰在這裡爭辯 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
5020.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
5025.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個機關是屬於誰?屬於三個黨的機關不是國民黨的機關也不是民主黨的機關吳征榮講得比較有道理這個機關代表的話也應該是老公沒休息最綜藝的話那你就派議事長去嘛然後議事處處長去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
5043.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
5066.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
因為我們在誠信心誠信心的違憲部分我們有申請緊急處分嘛那這怎麼搞的?這個基礎表也可以一路沒收都可以嗎?只剝奪我們參與法案的審查權嗎?還有表決人數從來不一這是誠信心的問題啊你要想想499幫上誠信心自焚誠信心問題就被判違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
5068.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
5081.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以這個有一個實體還有一個程式性的問題程式性的問題你既然院長你敢這樣的主持你一定有你的有所本嘛你本人的意識規則是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
5084.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
5097.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
民主黨要去說明啊,藝術組長要去說明,因為所有行為大家看得很清楚啊。欸!那表格中間你都圍起來,你先講開圍起來,然後其所表決。然後,院長我不客氣的講,因為坦白講這個是蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻蠻 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
5112.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
5134.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
高、高處長一個一個遞給你嘛你旁邊還有一個黑名書長你要問來問你以後拿高處長一個遞你找照面嘛所以這個東西齁這個問題是被挑戰的全國大陪會都看在眼裡嘛所以這個機關代表因為吳征、我之前講吳征等委員啦講蠻有道理啦你機關代表是defense嘛我的程序有什麼沒有問題啊應該是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
5138.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
5141.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以我比較建議就是說機關代表的話全部給 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
5145.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
5168.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
全部給立法院的議事處和院長所領導下的立法院的所有職員。你看派兩三個出來。至於諮問代理人的話,坦白講我們不派也無所謂,因為我們是等對照的嘛。我們就不派也無所謂啦。因為坦白講,我不派也無所謂不是說我入會你們主張。因為這個不是,您聽我講嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
5171.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
5177.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這節列不是惡言式的辯論啊,你是我的辯論啊。你說這個聽訟請求權,誰說可以去聽訟啊?拍大表隨時,我們一晚要幾個人去,差不多一流位置的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
5187.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
5213.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這不是有聽用的,這不是意猶未知的所以我的看法就是說,這條普通的法律是不太一樣的不然各一各吧,我是直接對的這是國家法院、縣法院上面一個解釋,絕對不是二元的因為事件裡面也有很多點,我已經講了這裡面也有你們的人心什麼,是主角之惡,是主角之惡和我們去抄民進黨版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
5214.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
5241.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正� |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
5243.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5261.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
民眾黨的機關就是所有人的機關是人命的立法院是國家的立法院所以我的看法是這樣這絕不是惡言惡言化的對立的因為你們版本裡面也有故意去抄我們的這我們可以認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5262.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5281.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我的看法就是說,這也不是從利益衝突迴避,這是國家法律的問題所以應該大家很忠義,很忠義來看待這個事情我這樣解釋就是說,我們可以輸入代理人,我都要我們要徵求我們中央行政委員會表達,他已經做了兩次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5283.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5300.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
事務代理人我們不要去跟你論告這個當然是我希望你們中立一點那你機關代表你就完全都機關代表只要你機關代表要列入藍白的話那對不起那我們也要就三個人來就一人一個啊不然的話藍白全部放棄讓全部給 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5301.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5331.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那當然你們是對照的一方面你們各黨都可以派三個律師、自動代理人那是沒問題至於這個鑑定人以及這個鑑定人法院法庭自由那自由憲法訴訟的規定各黨要怎麼推薦那只要他受理的話就可以我覺得這樣一個因為大家推到這個程度上面可能比較我們對於這個憲法的尊重那剛才我要特別講出說剛才吳律師要講一個很道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5332.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5356.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
當年案指紋的時候就是誰?就是現在總統賴清德他臨行提案的那個案指紋難道有藍心之筆嗎?沒有嘛難道說我們提出事件的話我們也不能派代表?可以啊那當然有幾個非常典型的合適的領件那是很典型的以及這個五八四日三一九證交會嘛那是很典型對照 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5357.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5385.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們就你們就全部讓你們去去去站在對面去講都沒有關係所以性質的不一樣但是這一個現在這一次是前途處目的整個整個國家的體制的設計上在這一關是最重要我不是希望這一關在處理的時候然後我們今天看到翁曉燕委員體制宣傳宣傳書宣傳修正案那個是絕對是把整個國家整個體制全部加工那是很危險的所以我在這裡比較主張就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5388.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5406.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們不是利益迴避的關係而不參加,是我們這個市政代理人全部給你們去發言,我們無所謂。但是只要機關,你不用機關代表的話,不用你玩的機關代表的話,三郎的話,就三郎可以發一個。我是這樣的結論。謝謝柯子中發言,國民黨團請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5417.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5421.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
謝謝院長今天的召集其實由院方這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5423.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5449.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
提出可能權益的一些草擬的一些文件讓大家能夠聚焦這都是好事才不會天馬行空嘛至少我們先聚焦在這個院方所提出來的相關的這個焦點我們來討論這樣是可以縮短我們這個協商的一個整體的時間我想院方這邊還是以後還是盡量幫我們聚焦一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5450.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5472.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那對於這次憲法法庭要求這個立法院來了這個通知書指定相關機關這到底是用通知書還是應該用函當然都可以討論啦沒關係它已經是通知書來就通知書啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5473.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5499.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
其實我們回文上也可以告訴他以後應該是要用喊因為行政院跟司法院跟立法院是一個平行的單位應該是好好的喊過來那另外就是我們也謝謝柯總召這麼謙讓我想我們有很多爭議的問題就不用不用再討論了那民進黨對於這個本身柯總召是這個訴訟的提出人嗎?申請人 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5500.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5526.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
他這個就是反正憲法法庭嘛他這個是由柯總召所提出來的嘛所以對這個部分柯總召願意不管是要迴避也好還是說這個願意禮讓也好我們也都請表謝意啦那我想這個部分我們大家就不用爭辭了那對於第二個部分啦這個機關代表的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5528.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5556.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們覺得既然是立法院是所謂的這個相對的這個機關所以這個機關的代表的部分我覺得我們還是尊重院長院長來指定來指定因為我們自己的招牌立法院自己顧院長來指定三位指定三位機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5557.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5584.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
對於我們這裡還是要特別提醒一下我們提醒一下我們立法院院方我提醒一下立法院院方這個因為在這整個過程當中我們對於這個監察院這個司法院他的這次的效能是非常的高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5587.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5611.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
司法院在這個6月28號網站公告受理立法委員柯建銘委員等51人之聲請案聲請書但是立法院是7月3號立法院才收到來文那司法院在7月4號下午才在 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5612.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5638.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
網路上公告7月3日受理監察院、行政院、總統賴清德之聲請書。司法院7月3日通知就申請暫時處分的部分通知立法院委任訴訟代理人及陳述意見。這個中間只有五天,7月5日到7月9日只有五天。 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5643.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5670.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那我們立法院需要完成所有的法定流程包括我們的訴訟代理人還有一些如果需要招標程序的話所以這顯有不足這沒有辦法保障訴訟人的權益是不是這個部分我們也要立法院也要跟司法院明確的表達因為這麼短的時間這麼急的要開庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5672.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5694.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
應該是給我們充足的時間我想這個是想對立法院本院的權益應該得到確保因為本院的權益不是部分任何政黨因為這是代表立法院的至於我想輸送代理人的部分現在已經沒有爭議了至於機關代表的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5699.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5710.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
分黨黨、分黨黨團我們也希望成為一個慣例啦因為過去就是這樣嘛尊重院長嘛我想我們以後還是朝這個方向來進行好不好謝謝國民黨團歡迎民眾黨團請你們補充意見好請沒關係沒問題請民黨團莊瑞雄幹事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5719.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5739.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
倒也不會衝突啦,這個指揮整個草野協商本來就是院長你的職權啊你也可以馬上講說政黨講完來政黨講完去你也可以講到一半大家講不下去了你說誰指定這個本來就是你的權限我必須要再講清楚啊那你今天我看到這一件我們今天的一個草野協商我倒覺得氣氛也非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5740.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5748.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那大家都談自己的一個看法,這個也都直播嘛,外界都可以去做檢視啊。但是國民黨剛提到的部分我就有一點不能夠贊同啊。第一個,剛剛副總召提到說,噢這個司法院你這個時間太短了,讓立法院沒辦法去準備。我都認為啊,憲法法庭這個定的時間都已經太過太長了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5760.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5784.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這涉及到整個憲政機關你整個運作的一個問題你立法院通過了以後你送給總統你總統你去做一個公告完以後這個法律是可以生效的法律是生效的所以當然你要這個時候你涉及到憲政機關的一個爭議的時候要有一個定暫時處分的一個狀態的話本來他就要非常迅速的如果在法院裡面你再申請假處分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5786.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5791.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
但更快啊!當天是可以裁的耶!所以我都認為說以憲政機關這樣的一個憲政爭議我倒不認為說憲法法庭這個部分是它的時間太急促 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5801.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5806.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5822.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5827.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這件事情涉及到我們立法院開出的一槍裡面是打到總統府打到監察院打到行政院所以是他們每一個人都是當事人他們沒有中立的問題啊所以如果說你要這個純然去講說這是兩兆的問題的話我也不認為這個叫做兩兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5842.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5851.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
以申請機關來講民主進步黨我們是申請人所以訴訟代理人的部分其他的部分我們就不爭執了這個大家有共識了嘛但是這個機關代表大家不要忘記 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5853.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5871.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
涉及到機關代表,當然就是在講立法院,立法院是各個委員,不只黨派,也有五黨,所以代表人是誰?是韓國瑜院長,以現在來說是你,所以我反而比較贊同是院長你來指定 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5872.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5892.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為涉及到你說這部法令申請釋憲的話那確實這個裡面法律條文大家很清楚涉及到也有人民不是只有政黨當初在立法院做攻防而已而且我們在審這個法的過程裡面大家不要忘記基於整個大家意識的一個攻防我們會把各個政黨的條文放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5896.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5909.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這是你看46條之二大家就看到了民進黨黨團的主張所以你說哪一兆到底是誰立法院是你泥中有我我泥中有你立法院是有國民黨、民進黨、台灣民眾黨還有五黨這樣來做組成所以他倒不是說一個對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5916.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5920.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5939.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5944.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
要求政黨全部放,如果沒有的話就全部都沒有,院長你來指定。」我覺得這樣來講的話是不是會比較符合說立法院一致對外也請各政黨大家再來做一個思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5953.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5979.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
謝謝莊惠雄幹事長那個訴訟代理人大概已經達成共識了就是說國民黨團派兩位然後民眾黨團派一位民進黨也很完全欣然接受那現在機關代表人我們現在請周秘書長簡短二要跟大家報告一下報告各位委員在一般來講在例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5980.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5997.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
其實這一次的司法院是對立法院相當不尊重的往常一定是司法院的秘書長一定會送給立法院秘書長表示體面的一個處理舉個例來講,但是我不在院裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5998.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
6023.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
八千八百億的預算,他一定是送給立法院去表達這個院裡面處理的情況,包括後面很多的例債,這次沒有,也沒有來函。往常的時候各位會了解到,好幾個案都不受理,不受理的時候的理由上一定都是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
6024.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
6052.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
立法院的秘書長含意見給他的。」這是完全都沒有所以馬上立法院就是一個通知就要訴訟代理人那在幕僚在作業的立場上很簡單我們只有往常的立以前的機關代表因為各位了解憲法訴訟法跟大法官那時候是不太一樣的但是訴訟代理憲法訴訟法一定是當事人一定是申請人跟相對人 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
6053.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
6068.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那相對聯裡面的一個情形在幕僚在座位的上當然是機關代表一定是以這個相對聯的黨團裡面提出他的代表所以我們才會這樣的寫法所以就是做一個補充補充意見沒有我們請民眾黨團黃總召請 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
6085.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
6095.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
兩個部分第一個部分是我要再重申一次憲法法庭7月3號我們收文的這個通知書的確是只有訴訟代理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
6097.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
6126.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
根本沒有機關代表所以我才會公開批評這樣子的通知根本就是在剝奪當事人在程序上面受憲法保障的聽審權我們現在要進行所謂的憲法訴訟在憲法法庭聽審請求權、正當法律程序這個是當初很多申請人包括柯建銘等51人寫在申請書上面的法律概念怎麼我們的憲法法庭自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
6128.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
6153.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
連聽懲請求權、連正當法律程序都沒有遵守。」這個是我當初所提出的質疑到今天7月5號才補發了這個東西才把這個東西給補齊啦我剛聽柯建銘總召在發言我真的有點驚訝柯建銘總召剛剛說您跟大法官書記處聯絡我不知道您跟他聯絡什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
6155.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
6181.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
怎麼會有當事人直接跟大法官書記處聯絡?你不是憲法訴訟的申請人代表嗎?什麼時候可以進行ex-party communication?這個是讓人覺得很驚訝的事情喔原來我們的申請人可以直接打電話去給大法官書記處的人叫他們做事情喔這個讓我非常非常的驚訝第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
6184.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
6196.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
申請人、相對人在進行延遲辯論。」他在概念上面本來就是兩照對立兩個立場不一樣一個主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
6199.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
6217.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
違憲一個主張合憲這是最基本的最基本的兩造對立的結構憲法訴訟法法庭化它的概念就是這個樣子今天51個申請人裡面竟然還有一個人可以過來當機關的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
6220.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6245.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這不是很荒謬的事情嗎那請問這位申請人我不知道民進黨黨團打算派誰當機關的代表之一那你當機關的代表你是站在機關的立場講話還是站在申請人的立場講話因為51位民進黨的立委都已經是申請人了51個人申請當中有一個人他既是申請人又是相對人機關的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6246.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6272.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這已經破壞了在憲法訴訟最基本的結構啊最基本的結構啊如果今天我覺得本院要非常慎重的去解決這件事情啊知識體大啊那個會很荒謬啊我國的憲法訴訟既可以當申請人同一個人還可以當機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6275.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6277.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
怎麼會有這樣的事情呢?剛剛他們就說啦,說不可以指派、主張是合憲的其他兩個在野黨的黨團做機關代表那民主七部黨黨團,剛剛柯建銘總召說他們也要有代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6297.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6307.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這是一件很奇怪的事,你既是申請人,你又是相關機關的代表,那請問你的主張跟立場是什麼?不好意思我可以先說完嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6316.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6336.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
最後最後如果今天這個不是指定訴訟代理人就可以解決的問題我為什麼說這不是指定訴訟代理人就可以解決的問題在程序上面有當事人有訴訟代理人訴訟代理人要聽誰的?要聽當事人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6339.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6364.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
訴訟代理人要聽當事人的如果這個機關代表是三個黨團都有三個黨團都有請問這個訴訟代理人要聽誰的當事人與訴訟代理人的陳述不一致的時候要聽誰的三個機關代表假設啦三個機關代表三個黨團各派一個代表三十分鐘一人十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6367.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6394.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們指這個是立法院所委任的訴訟代理人如果是當立法院所委任的訴訟代理人的話那個訴訟代理人他對負在對當事人的忠實義務跟善良管理人的義務他負義務的對象是誰是立法院他要主張的是什麼他要主張的是立法院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6396.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6402.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
當訴訟代理人他的陳述跟當事人的陳述不一致的時候,要聽誰的?要聽當事人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6407.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6433.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個在進行憲法訴訟的時候或許啦就是說我本來覺得這麼基本的概念其實沒有什麼解釋的必要但是如果真的大家對這件事情還要爭執的話那我是不是請建議院長發一個函直接去給憲法法庭請求產名說當申請人的還適不適合當本院的機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6435.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6459.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
看憲法法庭會怎麼回吧。謝謝黃總統。接下來請民進黨團請發言。我是覺得,大家抄耳其響,頭前我要講什麼,你要注意聽。然後你不一聽,然後你也聽不懂我在說什麼。那應該故意拗這一段。這是大廈這個衝突之所在。我是說今天大家都很理性。我說今天開始我開頭的第一句話是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6460.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6485.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
不應該由院長先做一個協商的結論出來因為侯文凱委員所說的交易案你是一個草案相主持的永遠都是最後一個拿出來聽大家意見拿出來協議大家要不要簽不是你才指定所以這一點務必要改進好不好這是第一點第二點我剛才也講得很清楚嘛侯文凱委員也今晚同意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6486.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6503.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
第一個,我們來攻擊火速非常惡質的,我老實坦白講。我是看你講,我覺得很奇怪,怎麼沒有機關代表這不對啊。然後一次我打電話去就結束,打電話到我們書記廳廳長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6507.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6531.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他是做行政的,我不是你比較大官的,你覺得對不對?我們一般輸送的時候,你一輩子也會打給書記官啊,到底程序是怎麼樣?你都是律師啊,你這樣要硬拗,還沒得利,我說你不這樣,就是會造成衝突的根源嘛。當然講得很清楚嘛。然後呢,剛才座案來講的也不對啦,因為坦白講,我剛才講的是機關代表人的話, |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6535.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6544.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
當然要有機關代表,三黨都來,因為立法院不是只有你們兩黨的,你們都有人在一起的,我們四條之二,你把我們的版本抄進去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6554.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6555.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你你 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6578.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6606.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
難道當初由賴清德立法委員領先提案的現在總統難道立法院有不同代表或說這個這個人沒有派啊所以看case嘛立法院是大家的立法院所以我剛才已經講了說機關代表最好你有因為大法官也是大概同樣的條件嘛因為你機關代表也是30分鐘我們也是30分鐘四個單位也是30分鐘而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6607.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6632.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那將來金管代表都給了金管代表三個人嘛那輸送代理人三個嘛當然我們都希望金管代表的話理由立法院院長一定要指定因為你從陳姓名要進行的嘛你坐在旁邊那個做外財秘書長他那個秘書長是你最大的一個指揮者嘛指導者啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6633.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6641.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6652.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6655.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以今天我講的結論就是剛才副分局總召的同意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6668.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6689.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那基本代表就由院長去指派嘛,院長你要指派一個就可以啦,也不要三個組隨便你,但是你總是要,你有沒有組織會議這個基本你,你才忘的嘛。那一定要說,說不定立法院要想辦法,他講說過去這樣的話,什麼司法院極度不尊重立法院,錯了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6691.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6718.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
過去在大審法時代的時候司法院民事長代表一切所以他要詢問給各黨團可是憲法訴訟法從一百一十年一月十一號到現在已經憲法訴訟法從我們去試驗的時候出來接的是誰過去我們去試驗的時候接的是誰是接的是司法院民事長那這是從一百一十二年以後都不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6719.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6738.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
是司法院的書記廳的廳長,他總是管行政的,他只來介意,他只管行政的,好像因為我可以寬縮,何謂黃國昌把這次的農工廠全力投照啊,不然他把阿花也要照啊,這次的農工廠有多少時間到農工廠賣了啊,這次的農工廠做人不應該如此嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6739.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6766.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
規要抹黑然後不給人家講話講話都很差話有人在搞這一套我現在回答他不敢講不敢聽了要趕快跑民進黨你們應該善於跟你們總召善於規範之反正這黨危險了好不好所以結論剛才大家都有同意嘛那基本代表我們就給你派謝謝柯總召現在特別跟黨自帶人我們不派這樣總可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6766.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6794.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
現在跟黨團幹部報告一下現在行政院的卓院長還在我們立法院我們先請院長回去休息請行政院團隊兩點半再來我們先請行政院院長先離開然後我們繼續開會好不好我知道那個兩點半以後那如果各位黨團幹部如果同意的話我先通知行政院團隊先回去休息請他們兩點半再來否則對他們不禮貌 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6797.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6812.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
現在請林思平發言然後請民眾黨臺灣民眾黨團請準備是謝謝院長院長現在我補充再一個問題就是說現在四個機關四個機關是不是他們一個機關就有三個訴訟代理人那合計起來他們有12個訴訟代理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6813.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6840.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以現在就是說我們立法院這邊是不是也要相對應的就是說如果是司法院是同意他們派十二個輸送代理人那我們立法院是不是也要就每一個機關相對應派出三個輸送代理人不是這樣就是說他每一個案子都不一樣嘛每一個機關的當事人不一樣所以他是會不一樣的一個審理是不是不一樣才有時間控制啦要時間控制要確認啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6842.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6862.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
四個機關就十五、三十分鐘啦!立法院三十分鐘啦!你不要說我現在要確認啦請我們立法院跟他確認是不是說他們是派十二個輸送代理人如果是的話我是個人是建議說立法院也相對應的我們要有十二位輸送代理人因為他們一個機關就三位了這樣武器才對等啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6864.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6884.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這要併案的如果你併案是一樣那十二位共用三十分鐘謝謝現在我跟你講不可能不是我決定的問題我們接到的通知就是三位好不好所以這個就一加三啦你的意見我聽到了大家也聽到了這樣就好好不好接下來我們請台灣民眾黨發言請市民兄把那個壓麥克風謝謝請台灣民眾黨發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6894.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6899.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6920.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6944.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
當事人的一方,因為現在是民進黨51位立委,都是申請人。那在相對人是立法院,立法院裡面也有所謂申請的代表,這是法院他可以直接禁止他雙方代理的。我想這個大家都一樣,不會是只有憲法法庭不一樣。所以很清楚的是,我認為這個事情就是立法院的院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6946.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6962.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
還有我們的行政單位要去捍衛立法院程序跟內容的合法合憲所以這個並不是可以用所謂的政黨代表或者是一定要有誰出來重點是我們主張是不是捍衛立法院的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6963.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6984.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
如果不是或者是說這中先我覺得認為就是由院長來做指定可能這是最適合的否則我們派了一個機關代表最後法院說你又是這邊的聲請人被禁止雙方代理的話我覺得反而對立法院並不利那最重要的是我覺得民眾都知道大家在講什麼所以其實就把事情講清楚儘速的趕快推出相關的代表不要耽誤到 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6986.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7011.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
當天言辭辯對的程序,或者是我們立法院立場的進行。」第二個,我不贊成只有秘書長代理,因為他們只能捍衛程序。他們對於內容,他們沒有辦法...我認為沒有辦法單獨用秘書長來代理。他們可以發表相關有關程序的部分,但是對於內容,他們並不能有自己的意見。也就是說, |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7013.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7041.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
相關的這個程序不應該內容的實質內容的部分不應該是把責任推給秘書長所以我們還是應該有通過這個法案的政黨的代表來捍衛這個法案的內容那至於不同意見所以今天才有這個釋憲案嘛如果大家意見都一樣就不用釋憲案了所以重點是51位代表如果有任何一個人代表了立法院去現場這個機關他可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7041.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7045.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所謂的利益衝突,可能法院都必須要禁止它雙方代理。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7046.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7073.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們請民進黨團莊幹事長謝謝院長我再講一次民進黨這51位市縣的一個申請人民進黨沒有要派出一個人去沒有沒有這件事我必須要去講清楚那另外剛剛林士明委員提到說那就變成是武器不平等不會就是譬如說一個案件裡面一個五個被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7074.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7096.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
或五個共同被告,法律明文規定訴訟代理人一個人請三個,不能說你們加起來是十五個,那我要力挺就要十五個檢察官,或原告這邊的人一個人一個律師,原告本來要升級三個人,因為你被告有十五個律師,那我原告這個地方我也要變成十五個律師,不會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7099.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7120.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
沒有啦,因為我剛就開宗明義講了嘛,這個案子涉及到各個各個憲政機關他們的權限跟立法院有沒有衝突的問題啦所以這個倒沒有武器平不平等的一個問題啦那黃國昌委員剛提到那些話我聽到了啦但我覺得最好的解決的一個方式就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7122.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7130.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
既然立法院它是一個合一機關到未必是從政黨的方面去看到未必要由政黨來做一個推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7134.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7155.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
再一次講說其實院長你就可以去做一個指定啊那你說你不是律師憲法法庭如果認為可以的話那你本身也可以啊你說你說你委任前向非律師為訴訟代理人的話憲法法庭審判長他說可以啊這個尊重你立法機關你派出來雖然不是律師雖然法治局局長或者說秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7157.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7184.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這些人都不具備律師的一個資格但是我們也可以憲法法庭也可以來做這樣一個尊重我認為他們也會做這樣一個尊重所以我的意思就是說要解決這個問題就不要去講到說什麼武器平不平等一個一部法律定出來各個政黨之間有攻防本來就會有不同如果你要講說利益衝突的話那如果是國民黨跟台灣民眾黨指定 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7186.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7190.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7211.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7230.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
院長你去做一個指定,你是立法機關的代表人嘛,你去做一個指定啊。謝謝鍾岳雄幹事長。國民黨團也沒有補充意見。國民黨團還沒有補充意見。民眾黨團還沒有補充意見。沒有。最後一分鐘。吳司友幹事長要一分鐘是不是?你們誰一分鐘?因為我要...我再講清楚一點啦齁。第一個齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7232.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7249.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個事件影響的不是只有政黨之間的衝突而已還有各行政機關的運作以及人民權益的問題所以不要大話說民運動不再派人不是這個意思我們在這裡講清楚第一個訴訟代理人我們都不會派 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7250.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7252.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7266.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7288.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
黃國昌或是胡文綺當然我們也要來啊是這樣啦是這樣所以機關代表不要有政治人物機關代表只有純粹立法院機關裡面應該是這樣比較合理那其他事務代理人我們不會派好不好那這個是牽涉到不是只有我們鎮長、校長而已這是胡文綺以所有人民權益因應的問題啊好是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7294.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7320.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們聽完好像三黨都是尊重院長指定嗎?我覺得這個就讓院長做決定好,請吳思雅幹事長請補充一分鐘這個真的要提醒院長中立這件事情我們再說一次民進黨沒有要去當機關代表我們的原則一致機關代表就是非政黨代表非政治人物他帶有預設的意識形態跟政策立場所以民進黨沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7321.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7339.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
要爭取這個所以我們認同好院長指派但是指派就是立法院的中立的官方的秘書長或是法治局的人就這樣我真的要提醒院長一件事議事中立這件事如果您今天指派的立法院的機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7341.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7351.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
是已經是在該議案上某一方主張的黨團那對外留在歷史上的就是立法院本身對於這個國會擴權法案你就是挺可能涉及違憲的那一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7357.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7361.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我要再說這個要在面對憲法法庭的解釋之前合憲違憲open因為大法官憲法法庭來處理同樣的立法院採取的機關立場也應當是合憲違憲你要是一個中立的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7375.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7402.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果您指派出來的機關代表是在這個議案上有清楚的政治立場的時候這真的就坐實了立法院從頭到尾面對這個職權刑事法跟刑法的修正當中本身就是不中立的社會在看這個很重要我一定要提醒院長我們有很強的秘書長不是嗎?我們應當有很強的法治局委員員不是嗎?你可以指派一、二、三都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7403.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7423.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
就是我們信任我們的中立的立法院的正正當當的官方代表我再想一次您的才是非常重要黃珊珊委員您沒有補充的嗎?各位黨團幹部非常感謝大家今天您要補充嗎?好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7426.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7449.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
院長我想我們已經開了協商一個半小時了齁那其實從一開始我們就一直強調過去這幾次的草野協商為什麼一直都沒有結論就是因為各黨團都黨團代表裡面都沒有辦法說就這個議題來討論其實院長剛剛先把相關的一個方向給你出來讓我們能夠聚焦我覺得這是好事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7449.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7475.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這代表是說我們能夠把握時間來做聚焦但是我一直強調的是我們到目前為止黨團協商就是最後協商結論大家黨團簽名才算數嘛還沒有簽名前都不算數嘛所以其實民進黨團也不用說一直幫院長來扣這個帽子我覺得這不應該再者我覺得院長既然大家都有共識就是說讓院尊重院長的決定那我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7475.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7484.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不認為說應該要預設任何前提跟立場。」院長的高度跟院長的指示難道會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7486.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7513.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
任何的預設立場並不會啊。」可是我覺得說剛剛聽到我們民進黨團的代表也講是說院長可以尊重但是院長不能派某些人我覺得這樣子其實就限制了院長的一個裁量權跟院長的指示權也因此我們也同意如果說院長能夠來指派但是不預設任何立場院長要指派任何人我們都能尊重但是絕對不是在限制的情況下要求院長來做這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7514.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7540.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以如果說真的沒有結論的話那就回歸到一開始大家院長說你出來這樣的一個決論大家是不是能夠同意如果說真的不能夠同意的話該怎麼樣做後續的議事進行我們也只能做因為草野協商看起來現在各黨團坐下來一個半小時了但是還是淪於各自的立場你沒有辦法說服我我沒有辦法說服你如果真的是這樣的話那就回歸到結論那我最後我只補充一點真的不是說我們第一次的釋憲案過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7542.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7570.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
第四屆有核市場停建的釋憲案當時本院推派的代表是高裕仁委員、周協委員跟謝啟大委員第五屆的時候319槍擊案的真相調查委員會釋憲案本院代表是高裕仁委員跟陳進興委員以及第六屆的時候國家通訊傳播委員會組織法司法院的釋憲案本院代表由國民黨黨團、親民黨黨團各指派一名代表參與說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7571.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7596.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
第四屆、第五屆、第六屆都有相關的潛力可循。」所以如果說真的沒有辦法決議的話,我覺得有潛力、一潛力、沒潛力、院長尊重院長的才智,但絕對不是預設前提跟立場。以上,謝謝。院長等一下,我抗議,嚴重抗議。因為事宜講了半天,還是回到原來的點。我一開始講說沒有所謂院長所謂的新做才智,然後叫人認出來給我們聽的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7598.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7615.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我正下草案協商在三十年內至少七百場,哪一個院長敢這樣做?你現在在講什麼反話?這個叫做尊重院長,執行新法第六十八條怎麼寫?因為院長是要調和一下解疑糾紛的,不是他來掛的,這個我就是這樣,你們都在聽我的,這是民主嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7619.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7641.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
委員長一來組織法規律很清楚你是意識重力的啊今天我好像問題就是他發生在這個地方嘛結果你還要繞回來炎點災害他好像在教訓你這搞什麼鬼嘛從剛剛發生講完一套你要講二三輪然後人家講話你就不聽不然黃國昌剛剛打我你事外疏於聽聽著我就問他程序這個有什麼我們不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7642.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7647.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7665.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7692.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好謝謝那我們現在宣告齁因為我們現在有關憲法法庭通知的相關事宜既然我們各黨團還是沒有辦法達成共識我們的想法佔了我們的立場我們是循例來辦理剛剛黃珊珊委員我為什麼請她拜託再重複一句所以現在秘書長跟議事處都是在處理法律程序的問題所以我們是希望遠利辦理有授權你知道剛才講得很清楚你知道問到黃孟凱的我怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7696.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7707.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那我想我們等一下交由院會來處理今天沒有列案要表決喔?今天沒有列案要表決喔?連這個都要表決喔?因為沒辦法處理喔?今天議程沒有欸下午兩點半在這裡我們繼續來處理還有五個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7719.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7744.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
第二條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7747.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7761.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
你把這個話已經講得很清楚的話你要把它弄複雜不是啦這有給人家要表決沒有要程序決定要出於表決這個也不要表決這是表決案這有共識這有共識啊這有共識我們我們有時候推人 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7766.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7793.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
今天沒有列這個議案是不能夠院會處理的沒有什麼可以院會沒有列案就表決的事情喔這個直播大家都在看吶韓院長第二個立法院的議事中立如果等一下院長要指派的機關代表就是國民黨跟民眾黨那就代表立法院從頭到尾在國會擴權的法案裡頭是不中立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7795.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7798.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
社會都在看。」請韓院長要懸崖勒馬。 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
14557.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
14557.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
兩點半的? |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
14576.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
14576.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
國民黨團稍等一會 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
14720.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
14748.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好謝謝各黨團的幹部還有各經濟委員會的召集委員跟經濟委員會的委員我們熱情的歡迎今天列席的各位部會首長來我先介紹一下我們經濟部歡迎經濟部的郭部長歡迎我們也歡迎經濟部中小企業及創新署的李署長也歡迎財政部的李政務次長負稅署的葉組長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
14750.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
14759.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
14766.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
14787.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案本案經經濟委員會一一三年五月二日舉行第十一屆第一會期第十次全體委員會進行審查由楊瓊英召委擔任主席本案有行政院版本、委員提案以及修正動議共九條那委員會審查的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
14788.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
14801.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
之序一項一、保留條文兩條第36條之二、第36條之四保留條文需交黨團協商二、其餘條文均照行政院提案條文通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
14804.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
14833.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
本案另於5月15日由楊全雲召委召集黨團協商結論第36條之二及第36條之四均保留,送給院會處理。今天協商會議將針對保留條文兩條來進行協商。我們先請...召集委員需要簡短二要說明嗎?好的,那我們請哪個黨團先發言?提案委員提案委員好,我們請黃珊珊幹事長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
14835.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
14852.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
謝謝院長還有各位同仁我想這個法案主要是在中小企業發展條例裡面其實大家的意見都差不多那各黨的版本其實都有希望說能夠在加薪上面能夠有減稅的優惠讓企業願意幫民眾來做加薪因為台灣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
14854.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
14878.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
已經不是經濟發展的問題而是經濟在發展但是薪水沒增加所以也希望企業把他們的成果能夠分享給他的員工所以我們把現行的130%提高到200%然後有關24歲年輕人的部分150%的話我們提高到220%那我們希望能夠推動壯世代的部分我們希望在65歲以上繼續工作的人也可以給他有250的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
14880.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
14882.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
14909.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
14917.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
謝謝臺灣民眾黨黃珊珊幹事長的發言接下來我們請哪位黨團要發言行政部門我們請郭部長請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
14919.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
14940.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
非常感謝韓院長主持今天的這個協商會議那麼也非常感謝立法院各位委員以及黨團的支持相關這個修正條文第一、二、三十五、三十六之三、三十九、四十等條那麼已經經我們立法院初步審查通過本次保留黨團協商共有兩項條文分別為第36之二條有關徵雇員工以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
14947.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
14959.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
為基層員工加薪的租稅優惠以及委員建議增訂第36之四條有關人才培訓品牌發展健全會計制度租稅優惠那麼在第36之二條有關徵雇員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
14962.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
14983.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
及為基層員工加薪的租稅優惠感謝委員提出各式版本經過行政部門詳細的試算以行政部門所建議的版本租稅效率最大也就是徵僱24歲以下青年或45歲以上中高齡者給予減除率150%為基層員工加薪給予減除率150%懇請委員及黨團支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
14991.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
15016.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
第三十六之四條有關人才培訓品材發展、健全會計制度租稅優惠經行政部門評估後有關人培可參考產創條例第十條第二項將研發人員訓練支出納入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研發投資抵減範圍有關品牌發展租稅優惠可能構成出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
15017.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
15033.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
補貼疑慮違反WTO規範有關健全會計制度支出是企業在經營及發展事業所必須項目政府已在商業會計法任列費用抵減營所稅原建議不推動立法以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
15035.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
15039.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
財政部或其他相關部會沒有補充說明。接下來我們請哪一位黨團要發言? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
15051.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
15070 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
謝謝經濟委員會的委員都很辛苦的大家利益良善希望能夠提出一個修法來協助中小企業的發展然後可以獎勵用租稅的獎勵來對於這個我們的員工來加薪但是民進黨團的立場我們是重點其實應該是36條之二跟36條之四 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
15073.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
15077.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
三十六條之二我們還是認為是維持現行行政院的提案增僱24歲以下、45歲以上的員工薪資加成 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
15088.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
15098.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
15111.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
15138.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那行政院的版本這所以定是150%其實是經過試算的是認為這個150%的租稅的效益其實是最高的如果說你加成率越高那租稅的淨效率搞不好就是遞減的方向來發展甚至會有負效益的狀況所以這是基於這個專業的租稅的加成率定在哪裡較宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
15140.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
15160.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我想提案的委員絕對是希望它往正向的發展而不是產生了副效益這個是我們經過專業的試算認為150%是合宜的部分那另外也針對這個研發支出因為具有高度的外溢效果它同時要承擔這個投資成敗的風險所以說產創條例第十條以及現在中小企業發展條例三十五條裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
15169.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
15173.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
都有提供研究發展支出的投資來抵稅優惠。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
15176.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
15179.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
當年度抵減15%等同於研發費用加成率75%。」所以說與原本的費用100%減除的話合計就是175%啦所以說基於橫平性跟合理性我們優先是認為150%是最好的效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
15200.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
15225.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
但若在一黨的委員覺得一百五不是太好,那看有沒有什麼空間,但我們目前研判還是認為百分之一百五是最好的這是在三十六條之二的部分那三十六條之四我想在委員會討論的過程經濟部門應該有多次的提出說明要增進第三項的支出來適用投資抵減的話其實要去考慮到會不會去衍生其他層面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
15226.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
15246.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
所以研發人員的人才培訓的支出要納入研發支出投資抵減或者是品牌發展支出的投資抵減好先講品牌發展的這個投資抵減品牌發展支出啦要來做投資抵減這好像跟WTO的規範是不符的這個我們不能違反WTO的一個規範反而會影響到 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
15248.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
15275.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
台灣的國際競爭力還有外資來台的投資意願。」所以這是品牌發展支出的部分我們絕對不能立一個法來違反WTO的規範那至於研發人才的人才培訓支出要不要納入研發支出的投資抵減的這個部分是不是已經在現在中小企業發展條例三十五條的授權辦法裡頭有進一步的規範有沒有需要再來訂是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
15276.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
15300.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我覺得這個就不需要有這樣子的重複的作為當然最後一個健全會計制度本來就是企業應盡的義務如果你用投資抵減來獎勵的話我覺得這有一點本來就是他該做的事情所以這幾個理由我們都經過研究也經過跟行政部門然後也去商著在委員會討論的一些過程我們都認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
15302.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
15324.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
三十六至二維持百分之一百五是合宜的,絕對不能產生負面的效應。那三十六至四會跟其他現行的法律,有的是重複的,有些是抵觸了WTO的規範,這個部分都請參議黨的委員,我們都肯定要協助中小企業,但是不要造成了沒有想像到的一些可能產生的衍生的問題。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
15326.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
15326.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
報告完畢。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
15341.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
15343.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
三十六條之二及第三十六條之四 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
15358.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
15383.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
第三十六條之二重點就在於我國的地性問題尤其針對年輕人我們跟世界各國來比這地性問題是非常嚴肅的議題務必政府要去面對第二個重點三十六條之二也就是我們促進就業率的問題因為我們目前看到臺灣的就業率還是沒有在增長那要怎麼樣去鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
15384.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
15395.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以包括在我們5月15日的這個協商當中,針對於所提出的修正東西包括24歲以下或者是65歲以上的這個遞減率有兩個版本,也就是有一個是200一個是200 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
15403.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
15427.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
二、二十五歲以上未滿三十歲或四十五歲以上未滿六十歲的是兩百。」這個是提案委員都一致。那這個目的就是剛剛我說的解決青年低薪以及促進中高齡的這個就業。那重點在於說,如果目前的現行法律是一百三,那我們只有依據剛剛行政部門所說的,也在我們審查這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
15430.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
15447.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
15454.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
15473.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
但是我仍舊要請行政部門你重視到這個問題因為要修改一個法律不是那麼簡單那中小企業我相信佔了我們全國將近九成的就業人口那我們要怎麼樣去照顧他 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
15474.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
15487.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
15490.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
15496.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
三十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
15509.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
15536.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
正本歸原在我們中小企業的這個部分如果說我們八爪章魚抓這個抓那個要來引對線如果這樣是可行的那為什麼目前我們的低薪為什麼目前我們的這個就業率還是沒有辦法增高這個我覺得要提供給大家以結果論的面向來反對我們整個過程這是一個所以因此在研究人才培訓支出的部分行政部門也同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
15537.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
15563.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
另外還有兩項也就是品牌發展我特別要提出我特別要提出因為我們知道臺灣以前都是OEM都是做別人做出來的產品到世界各國去蓋一個章就十倍價我們很難過臺灣已經有很多可以自創品牌當然你們所提出的如果我們自創品牌銷售到全世界裡頭去會跟WTO的這個部分規劃會卡到 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
15564.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
15592.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那這個我也願意退一步但是我仍舊要但書請我們的政府協助我國國內有能力自創品牌的人因為不是那麼簡單的你個人的要自創品牌沒有那麼簡單政府協助他一方面有後盾二方面他資金各方面他有一個鼓勵所以這個部分我願意在這個條文來退但是但書要怎麼樣去協助我們的這個中小企業這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
15593.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
15611.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
最後一個,也就是健全會計制度的這個部分剛剛行政部門也有說了但是我不太同意說只用一個說這個是本來你應該要做的你沒有加入目前臺灣的面向跟世界要怎麼接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
15612.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
15625.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們現在不管是AI等這些面向我們在經濟委員會所有的廠商我們不斷的在協助他們怎麼樣的升級、怎麼樣的精準那我們要怎麼樣協助他們在會計帳裡頭可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
15627.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
15656.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
第十四條條文修正草案 進生可以升級。」這個是我們主要提案的這個目的來協助他們我再一次的強調中小企業佔了我們幾乎八成的勞動力中小企業為台灣奠定了這個基礎政府沒有理由不照顧他們怎麼樣協助他們可以提升跟全世界來接軌這是一個重點如果未來他不能跟全世界接軌我想我也不知道未來台灣的經濟會如何以上見言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
15657.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
15672.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
謝謝楊卿英總召的說明接下來我們請柯建銘、楊卿英召委、對不起請柯建銘總召發言、莊瑞雄委員請準備院長、各位理事代表有關於今天我們討論中小企業法案條例我想大家都站在一個同樣的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
15673.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
15686.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
當然政府如何獎勵中小企業的發展,中小企業大概還是佔台灣一百萬家,這是整個國家一個最大活力的地方。在這裡我想跟各位討教一個事情,從36條有關於36條之四的問題, |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
15693.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
15720.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
本席參議員過去近來的時候1993年進來以後我都一直在經濟委員會所以我們希望大家回顧一下整個我們用租稅工具來鼓勵這個產生的產業發展這個政策事實上有時而進的那當然要符合一些國際規範第一個從最早大家想想看這個蔣經國時代有所謂蔣投蔣立投資條例蔣投 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
15722.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
15744.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
當然包括外國人投資條例、法僑非國投資條例都是有,後來都一一廢除了。那為什麼呢?整個企業是面對著整個全球的競爭,並不是由一時一時入稅低減,道具是有限的。所以講頭後來落日以後,我想大家會很清楚有促進產業生意條例, |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
15746.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
15769.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那中小企業生意條例也漏日了因為十二十年以後漏日了現在改到創創條例那為什麼這樣呢因為整個產業環境一直變革嘛世界競爭非常加劇的加劇化所以我們要讓我們產業能夠升級最主要產業能夠升級能夠面對競爭所以在豬肉工地方面想跟各位分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
15770.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
15795.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
最早的促進產業生意條例有所謂吃鹽瓶頸咖啡他吃完的滴雞,那為什麼?為了六親嘛所以當然也有所謂自動化、人才培訓以及自動品牌那後來那時候我在經營委員會也加入了這個公共用水reuse以及潔能源但是這些都已經過去漏日了 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
15795.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
15822.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那我們知道說最早的出行產業生意條例也有所謂新興高科技產業新興中小車業新產業後來都一直在改包括二級、三級算不算還有包括什麼?還有包括工商綜合區早期就是這樣的一個脈絡下來當然這個脈絡下來以後逐漸都是包括個人股東投資低見也沒有了包括創投危機的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
15823.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
15835.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
15846.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
15869.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
自動化、職業自動化現在什麼都自動化到早年那個出產條例出產產業生育條例說自動化它高達稅值一年好幾千億所以那個官方條例的稅值非常嚴重所以後來本來就沒有自動化一種存活了從那個道理你來看待的就是說國際所有關人才培訓的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
15870.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
15897.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
人才培訓當然楊聰英本人講的沒有錯人是最重要培養人才那當然這樣子做RD的能力要很強就企業才有競爭力人才才是公司的最大資產當然人才每一家公司我們看到包括今天台積電都是他們的資產錢都超過全世界所以我們有關於他資產錢部分人才培訓的部分就是未來發展的面向上面那既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
15899.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
15921.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
廠商條例已經在北京上面有規範了,在這裡就不必再重複處理。」我的看法是這樣。那自動品牌,黑裝品AS嘛、紅基準嘛。那現在,現在就廠牌講,我們每一個人都知道自動品牌和OEM的差別很大。但是呢,能夠在自動品牌、自動品牌能夠在國際市場有被認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
15922.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
15940.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
然後被認定然後拿到一個主導權,那是非常不容易的,坦白講。那至於健年快遞制度要給他註冊優惠,我是覺得這很奇怪啦。那既然快遞法上面也有它可以認列的一部分, |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
15940.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
15969.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那我們在這裡要給他租稅優惠這個讓人家感覺起來我們全國所有的中小企業引來自己上市貴公司他都是非法兩套章的樣子這個有點怪怪的本來你就是要很健全快易之路現在所有的公司質疑上面都是法規都很嚴謹的那上市貴公司也有獨董啊獨董他這裡是省紀委員啊所以我們不能回歸就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
15970.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
15987.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
再給它建成差異資助上面要有資歸優惠,反而是一種汙名化的代名詞。」好像都亂唱錯話,都亂瞎搞的樣子。所以這個有關於三十六條之四,我們要持保留意見,請各位委員能夠了解。至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
15989.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
16004.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
三十六條二我剛才也講過我們在整個中小企業發展條例上面三十五條已經處以過那個研發RD已經納入了包括制裁權也可以反科所以該處以之後回到這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
16008.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
16025.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這個條例是因為十年到,當初是水中的,當初就是吳敦義當行政院長的時候,那時候景氣不好,所以弄出來這個就是說你雇員員工的時候可以給你租稅低減,那時候很有名叫什麼叫平坡條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
16026.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
16027.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
第二條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
16047.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
16072.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
當然今天時間到了要再延遲的時候當然我知道每一個委員都很希望能夠在租稅的促減率上面能夠多一些來照顧中小企業剛才吳世耀委員也講得很清楚事實上他到這種程度的時候他的賓利相應是有限的這個部分待會請財政部來分析一下我是覺得今天我們都可以很理性來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
16075.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
16102.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
二、長榮83至85、長榮85至175但是呢,有一部分我是覺得大家要深深思考因為長者的部分長者的部分當然民運董事250嘛,是不是啊?那國民董事220嘛,對不對?那民運董事民運企業是200嘛但是很重要就是要長者的部分六十五以上像我這長者像鄭文忠鄭文忠退休了以後鄭文忠不做立委以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
16104.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
16118.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
正宗退休以後他會去當獨董,他薪水是上千萬的所以這個重點一定要去考慮什麼?考慮基層員工啦基層的員工啦所以你不能他本來長得像郭董事長他不當部長的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
16129.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
16132.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
16148.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
16166.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十八條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
16167.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
16190.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
待會財政部試算做一個東西大家再思考看看這樣好不好但是對於三十六條這四個部分我認為應該不要以鎮定這個是已經過去時代的事情時代的產物了以上謝謝柯建銘總召接下來請莊銳雄幹事長發言然後傅坤祺總召請準備謝謝院長我倒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
16194.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
16215.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
還有我們在場的協商代表三十六之二和三十六之四我就一併講了你說三十六之二徵雇不管是二十四歲以下四十五歲以上這樣的一個徵雇的一個租稅的一個優惠跟加薪租稅的一個優惠還有三十六條之四你說人才的培訓品牌發展跟健全會計 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
16217.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
16243.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個費用的一個抵減這個當然對中小企業來講的話都是一個幫助但是我倒會覺得說是不是行政部門這裡可以再來看看講清楚啦我相信不管是各黨所提出來這樣的一個整個修正跟行政部門你推了一個相關的案的一些一些方案出來那其實是一致啦都是一致啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
16243.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
16268.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那實說我的看法是說你徵雇的租稅你的優惠你說到底要提升到多少我相信你們算完以後你要那個效率才是正的話有最大的一個效益的話那推動推動這個才有意義嘛那應該我相信行政部門你們有一個試算的一個標準但是我倒是要特別提出來就是說我們以現在來看的話以產創條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
16270.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
16298.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
相關的一些法令在的你說針對於人才的一個培訓或者說品牌發展這部分尤其是品牌發展我們看到OECD就是說你把它列進去你說到底是不是這個有實質的生產力的一些支出像這些你如果把它放進去的話對於你整個租稅來看的話國際上到底是怎麼樣會有沒有有所刊格的地方你們這個部分確實也要去講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
16298.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
16326.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那我相信整個人才培訓如果說以現在人才培訓他所認列你說整個費用的一個抵減他的營所稅的部分如果沒有相關規定那這樣各黨各黨提出來他又有道理喔他又有道理喔所以相關這一些是不是有沒有重複行政部門應該要講清楚然後他的效率到底是要放在哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
16327.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
16331.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
哪一個位階裡面才會產生最大的效益?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
16344.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
16366.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
謝謝張瑞雄委員發言接下來傅崑崙委員發言完吳春日委員請準備吳春日委員發言完請財政部準備說明好請傅崑崙委員請說請傅總召我想這個是一個很嚴肅的問題因為畢竟在臺灣在還是亞洲四小龍之龍首的時候我們都走過那個年代那我很清楚的看到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
16368.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
16394.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
當時都是一個OO7的行李箱就跑到沙烏地阿拉伯去了,臺灣人啊。中小企業非常的多。那經過了這40年我們再來看,臺灣到底有成立了多少個大的企業集團。1997年,亞洲金融風暴,韓國整個崩盤。但是人家短短10年時間,2007年就已經超越臺灣了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
16395.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
16424.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我們現在是不是還要在故步之風原地踏步為什麼韓國能台灣不能為什麼品牌的建立到現在為止台灣到底有幾個跨國性的對不起喔台積電是民國七十五年當時的政策跟智慧累積造成的那現在我們到底對於啊這個品牌的建立國家做了多少事情OEM也會有OEM |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
16426.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
16452.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那根本就沒有什麼毛利嘛毛三道四嘛都在拼那個東西所以現在我要特別謝謝已經離席了楊瓊英委員他有在提到這個事情我想這個不管今天比例是如何我想我們給經濟部做一個參考在這個政府裡面我們到底為我們的產業界中小企業能夠把它拉拔起來我們國家出了多少力氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
16454.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
16478.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
二條條文修正草案、全面就業人才培養的方向、研發的部分政府的支持是如何。」我覺得這個部分都可以請經濟部提出相對應的一些看法讓我們一起來了解因為畢竟在產業界政府就是協助他們為什麼韓國從一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
16483.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
16509.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
貨幣崩潰的情況之下1997到2006年就超越台灣人均所得整個都上來GDP所以我們在這裡要特別希望我們經濟部拿出立法委員來做相關的這些提案跟建議都是好事但是怎麼樣下猛要因為現在畢竟我們跟其他國家比起來整個東南亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
16511.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
16522.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
16536.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
16564.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是這不是說只有提案委員提出來我們行政院相對應的是想法是什麼、版本是什麼、理由是什麼能夠帶來什麼樣的影響、未來有什麼樣的刺激能夠讓企業有什麼樣的成長甚至成為智力品牌甚至成為跨國的大企業不再是007在跑沙烏地阿拉伯我們都經過了那個年代台灣的一流的人才不要再外流了就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
16567.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
16587.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
對於這個不管是二十四歲以下六十五歲以上這兩百二其實也不是很多啦二十五歲以上三十歲或四十五歲以上未滿六十五這個兩百其實啊這個只是政府的杯水車薪啦我們要不要去支持中小企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
16589.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
16617.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那對於這個36條之四這個現在經濟部的版本是人才培育的部分是OK嗎是OK嗎那未來就是說這個品牌的發展還有研發的投資這些是不是我們經濟部有一個比較明確的態度我們修法隨時可以修除了這次以外我們還是可以修經濟部提出版本我們也可以支持好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
16619.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
16624.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
財政部及經濟部請準備。臺灣明年2025年進入超高齡社會我一直到這裡來一直不斷的疾呼我發現我們的行政部門我們的立法部門一直都沒有把這問題放在心上 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
16648.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
16670.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
對,這是創世代,這也是我們的副會長然後呢2034年台灣一半的人要超過50歲2045年台灣一半的人要超過60歲國發會主委有沒有在這裡,這是國發會的資料台灣未來的主力是倒三角形,整個的工作的主力都在這裡喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
16672.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
16688.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
但是大家都還是用金字塔的我好像就是下面的年輕人的勞工未來不管是生產消費都是在高齡層這是台灣未來的社會我們部長在這裡談大健康才能很有遠見我這裡提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
16690.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
16691.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
第一件事有幾個意義?第一件就是就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
16709.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
16716.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
台灣65歲上的就業率只有9%、韓國有35%、日本25%,我們遠遠的低於這一個。這一個生態如果我們還不去鼓勵,不可能改變這種狀況。再來第二點, |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
16729.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
16748.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
第二點接下來台灣十年就是面臨的退休潮所有的老師傅都要退休了你知道中小企業幾乎都老師傅啦年輕人都到大企業了到台積電了中小企業這一些因為老師傅都高薪嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
16749.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
16760.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
年輕到了所以你如果沒有在獎勵的話這個退休草對中小企業是一個大的傷害所以政府如果沒有補助沒有鼓勵的話連國營事業都有20%的退休草要離職了你要舉手等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
16769.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
16781.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
第三個面臨勞動高齡社會勞動工作就是最好的解方不是用衛福部在那邊長照啦你給他工作他就不會臥床啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
16782.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
16812.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以鼓勵政府寧願把代價花在這個部分而不是把錢我們現在的社會已經到達八千億了啦一直增加這一些啦應該把錢鼓勵他如何能夠工作這個工作不僅是他健康而且社交整個這個意義非常大要從這個角度第四個層面從市場面我們現在經濟部我們郭部長在推大健康經濟啦大家今天的消費者就是這些高齡者啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
16813.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
16833.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
培養這些活絡他們要出來才會消費嘛,他們要出來社會走動才能在家裡就臥床了。所以這個非常龐大的內需市場,包括我們儘管會彭主委在這裡要推動的釋放,我們知道三分之二的財富在這些壯實在的手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
16833.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
16852.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
你把他丟在家裡你以為他養老啊還是什麼這個是一個未來叫長壽經濟長壽經濟勞動工作所以為什麼我們要很鼓勵他們出來這是以上我的請求啦就是給這些高齡者65歲以上大大的鼓勵拜託各位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
16854.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
16856.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
三條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
16868.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
16895.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
主席還有各位財政部部份我先做那個就是剛才委員有提到就是有關就是這個百分比就是徵戶員工或者是基層員工這個百分之一百五十或者是委員們提案的百分之一百七十五或者是兩百或者是兩百五它的效益是怎麼樣那基本上其實上次我們在召委主持的會議的時候其實就已經有請經濟部做過相關的評估就對各位提案來提供相關的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
16896.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
16919.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
經過他們評估的結果,目前我們初步看起來是行政院的提案它從整個徵雇人員、薪資總、還有就是租稅損失跟租稅創造的效益部分整個算出來的話,它的淨效益是最大的所以那時候我們才覺得說院版的150它可能是效益最大那次加的大概是175%還是正的效益,大概是次加 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
16924.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
16927.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
第四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
16941.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
16942.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
三十六條之四 人才培訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
16958.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
16984.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
人才培訓的部分因為以前它也是一個單獨的獎勵但是在88年12月28號當時修正促產條例以後這些人才培訓跟品牌形象的支出就是因為它已經不符合整個國際租稅的規範還有就是WTO相關的認定為是一個禁止性的補貼不能提供這樣的租稅補貼所以那時候在修正促產條例的時候整個把這兩個租稅優惠就整個徹底的拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
16988.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
16990.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
17010.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
17016.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
其實我們現在對於研發的人才培訓的支出我們可以在現在的中小企業發展條例的35條還有就是產業創新條例的第十條裡面它都有研發支出的投資抵減那有關研發人員的人才培訓的相關支出本來就可以納到那裡面去適用相關的投資抵減的優惠所以我們覺得這個地方應該是不需要再重複來訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
17036.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
17042.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
第二,品牌形象支出,特別重申,因為違反WTO禁止性補貼的規範,因為他們特別認為這個部分是對出口還有鼓勵外銷的補貼是一個禁止的行為,所以當時促產條例在88年落日的時候就整個把這個條例,因為違反這相關的規定就把它刪除了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
17062.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
17083.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
另外對於健全會計制度的部分我們也很認同就是我們對於中小企業希望能夠健全他的會計制度這是一件非常重要的工作但是當然因為我們現在的商業會計法裡面本身已經有相關的規範因為對於企業來講他的會計處理就是一個很基礎的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
17083.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
17096.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
他本來就應該做的這件法律的義務而且在商業會計法裡面還有相關的規範就是如果他有違反相關的規定的時候譬如他沒有設置會計帳簿啊或者是沒有依照規定保存帳簿憑證的話都會有相關的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
17100.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
17123.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以我們覺得這個部分其實企業本身在企業經營狀況的時候他自己必須要健全他的會計制度那我也在這邊可以補充說明一下其實在我們租稅措施上面對於這些就是中小企業來講我們也是鼓勵這個中小企業能夠健全他的會計制度所以在我們的租稅申報上面我們有個特別的優惠措施叫做擴大書面審核的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
17124.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
17125.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
三十六條之四條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
17146.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
17172.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
國際租稅規範一方面企業本身應該要做的一些事情我們也有相關的輔導措施在研發人才培訓上面也有相關的規範是不是三十六條之四就可以不要在這邊再另外訂定至於三十六條之二的部分就是各委員有不同的比例那就看看今天各委員討論的結果這個部分我們原則上尊重各位委員最後討論的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
17175.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
17204.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
市長講得非常清楚補充介紹一位貴賓我們金管會彭主委到場歡迎您我們請經濟部部長發言然後接下來雙位熊委員請準備各位我的我們經濟部的看法這樣就是說現在的這個世界的這個經濟有大幅度的這個因為大家的資訊非常的容易取得所以那個要分國內市場跟國外市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
17205.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
17228.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我個人是建議說對國外市場我們應該要把台灣的企業整合一下我們用供應鏈的概念然後一個品牌然後對國外的企業做一些approach就是說這樣子的話比較容易讓國外的消費者或者國外的客戶能夠很清楚的所以我們的品牌就叫台灣SELECT |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
17229.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
17232.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條例部分條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
17255.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
17269.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那至於中小企業建立品牌,過去中小企業署或是我們經濟部就已經有很多的方案在幫助他們所以這部分我比較沒有那麼熟悉,我請我們署長來跟各位說明一下署長請簡短 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
17271.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
17285.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
包括在這個品牌的協助上我們有長期有輔導廠商去建立品牌然後還有輔導國內的產業去建立一個整個國家的一個品牌跟產業的形象 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
17286.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
17292.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
第二、健全會計或財務制度部分,中小企業處長年與各地工業會、商業會及相關協會等免費義務協助強化整個財務會計和體制。這方面專業人才的指導可視為減輕中小企業對這方面的支出。所以這些輔導工作進一步站在 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
17312.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
17340.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
長年度站在積極推動的部分去進行。」我們也非常謝謝委員的指教。署長時常去中小企業拜訪齁?你有時常去啊?我感覺你皮膚特別黑,曬太陽曬對不對?接下來我們專位熊委員發言,柯建銘總召請準備。謝謝院長齁,其實我剛剛的問題齁,我們財政部跟經濟部這邊其實也沒有回答啦。你36條之四的部分喔,我想要確認一下,碳幾年喔, |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
17340.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
17343.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
三十六條之二條文修正草案 。但問題就是說如果那一部分金額沒有很大的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
17356.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
17383.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
財政部其實只可以再考慮一下我不認為經濟部他會去反對經濟部其實要剛才那些中小企業你叫一番對他講比較好意思這應該是你財政部來講啊涉及到幾乎都是租稅減免啦但是我倒很關心一點就是說我們現在你那個品牌發展的部分你說你減免是不是舉個實例你說對我這一些以後我外銷我在競爭的時候到最後影響到我日貨品牌外銷國際的一個限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
17384.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
17388.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
17401.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
17419.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
可以稍微修正的我倒覺得還好這個反而是財政部的問題叫經濟部表態這個就比較沒意思了因為你這個沒意思付這個給賺多少而已這樣發經濟更好而已但是那個三十六條之四那個整個你對品牌的一個發展你去把它做補助的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
17421.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
17441.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
你這個部分你也列入到租稅的優惠我很擔心就是說會限制到我們以後到國際上去行銷如果有這樣的話你們也要跟你們要明白講出來啊你不然大家修這種案子真的是要幫助中小企業啊但我擔心你們沒有講清楚到時候我們修了法以後又要害到人家這也不行啊好 柏定 那個 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
17446.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
17451.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
17469.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
17498.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我是覺得三十六條之事應該大家比較有共識啊三十六條之事啊因為包括你說也總統企業這個會議、會計資料的補助上面那剛才部長還講得很清楚嘛那個財務部是財務部還是國務部長講的啊我們現在有要傳傳嘛擴大這個擴大簡化措施嘛讓讓他們稅金能夠能夠繳得比較少啊這些都有都有總統部長從業界來都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
17499.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
17514.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
但是我認為就是說品牌那個部分當然我們直接補助直接扣除減稅的話那可能就有問題當然剛才部長講說這個現在是台安品牌的selective |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
17515.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
17533.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
是一個打情價的事業供應鏈的概念,不可能一家公司它當然已經有財源鏈的垂整了,這樣才能夠應付國際整個競爭,一定要進入打情價的時代,所以三條之事我是覺得我們有想跟他比較保守一點、比較好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
17534.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
17548.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
倒是就是說有關於這個剛才吳春榮委員講的我看他好像對這方面也蠻內行的很出眾這可以肯定因為不是我也是老人 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
17550.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
17578.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
但是我是退休以後就不就業了所以我現在講起來我們大家能對於這個老人就業人口將來是在國家一個很重要的一個勞動力以及他們業績的經營等等都不錯都很重要世界各國都是這樣因為勞動力的減少包括人才減少的時候是一個國家一個競爭力摔壞的時候所以我們把這個找回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
17579.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
17593.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
當然我是比較建議一個委員基層員工啦我用在基層員工就好基層員工上面用在基層員工但是這個有關於我們將來這個有收益要多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
17595.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
17617.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
二十五條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二條條文修正草案、兩百二 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
17623.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
17650.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
謝謝柯總 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言 洪孟凱委員請準備好 謝謝主席 我想大家都講完了那個剛剛聽到財政部次長所說的其實我聽到還蠻高興他還說次加的叫做175所以顯然是還是有不錯的計算方式那我想每個黨團的態度都一樣希望能夠企業加薪能夠抵稅然後讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
17651.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
17674.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
七月有機會搶人才,因為台灣的低薪環境真的是讓很多的人才外流。那七月為什麼要加薪?因為他有減稅,所以他才會願意加薪。我想這個是良性循環,所以我會具體建議說是不是在這個175跟我們的200再做一些調整,但是150的話我希望民進黨團跟經濟部也不用堅持,我想如果影響不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
17676.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
17683.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
17701.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
17703.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
17712.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
17736.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
好感謝院長我想我們在經濟委員會那時候的協商第一次逐條審查的時候就是我在經濟委員會的時候要求說我們的財政部門應該要去有一個算式告訴我們來了解說如果說現在是130、24歲以下是150現行的比例那我們各委員有版本包括說行政院有150包括有175、180、200 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
17738.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
17757.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那到底我們會有多少的影響以及會有多少的效果我先開宗明義講在經濟委員會第一次逐條審查的時候其實我們財政部門並沒有準備這個資料也因此我們講是說要在協商的時候有這樣的資料那剛剛有聽到我們財政部次長講是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
17760.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
17776.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
最佳的一個情況是150次加是175那有沒有其他的一個調整如果所有其他調整可能會這個邊際效益遞減我聽起來是這樣子那如果說以這個專業考量我想我們都尊重財政部門因為財政部門一定是支柱必較 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
17776.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
17798.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那如果說這樣的話以150或是175為概念是一般的員工來去看因為現在員工一般員工就是130嘛我們現行條文是130那24歲以下是150我們就希望是說24歲以下以及65歲以上的壯士蛋我想這也是國民黨黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
17799.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
17827.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
寫出來我們的比例其實我們還希望能夠更細是25歲以上未滿30歲以及45歲以上未滿65歲但我想今天我們不堅持就是說在這個條文裡面一定要有一般員工跟24歲以下65歲以上的兩個級距為什麼?因為第一我們當然是鼓勵一般的中小企業能夠來做加薪抵稅的概念但第二我們也更希望能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
17828.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
17832.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
新進的員工能夠讓這些中小企業能夠來去聘請年輕的朋友,或者是65歲以上的壯士代。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
17838.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
17865.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
等下是不是請財政部門這邊來去說明一下如果說以這樣的兩個集聚方向為一個概念的話能夠有多少的比例是你們認為是現行的制度底下或說你們評估之後效果會是最佳的我想用你們的一個角度來去看效果最佳那我們再來決定那第二36條之事我想我們剛剛經濟委員會的召委楊潔文委員也有講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
17866.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
17891.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
他可以認同就是人才培育的部分但另外兩個部分我們不堅持所以說就是品牌發展的部分我們不堅持所以所以說我覺得說在如果說36之四我們有一個共識的話那可以基本上36之四可以有一個方向但36之二我覺得應該要聽財政部門我們就是這兩個族群的集聚你們給我們一個說法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
17893.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
17919.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那個這樣好不好建議財政部跟經濟部我們稍微休息一下我們這邊討論你們草泥一個條文出來那洪文凱書記長剛才也講過了三十六條之四那這邊木木茄圍跟柯總召這邊還有共同學一代就不太堅持了那如果這樣的話就三十六條之二那麻煩你們盡可能尊重各不同黨團委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
17921.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
17926.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
18786.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
18796.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
18812.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
18836.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
再一次感謝經濟部財政部各位列席官員謝謝各位黨團所有成員經過我們再一次的溝通之後我們達成了一個共識我現在唸給大家聽我們以行政院版本為基礎第36條之二請各黨團幹部能夠仔細聆聽中小企業徵僱一定人數之二十四歲以下或六十五歲以上本國級基層員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
18838.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
18860.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
且提高該企業整體薪資給付總額時,得就其徵雇該員工所支付薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,至其徵雇當年度營業事業所得額中減除。中小企業調高本國籍基層員工至平均薪資給付水準時, |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
18861.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
18889.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
德舊非因法定最低工資調整而增加支付本國籍現職基層員工薪資金額之百分之一百七十五限度內至其增加薪資當年度營業事業所得額中減除但因徵雇員工所致增加之薪資給付金額已適用前項規定者不得重複計入 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
18891.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
18919.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
前兩項徵雇員工之對象及人數、企業整體薪資給付總額、基層員工範圍及平均薪資給付水準計算方式、核定機關、申請依具備之要件、申請期限、申請程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定之。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
18922.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
18923.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
三十六條之四復旦決議。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
18933.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
18961.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
有關中小企業研究發展人員之人才培訓支出列入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研究發展支出適用投資抵減範圍與未來訂定執法規投資抵減辦法時予以明定。徐議員我再念一遍嗎?再念一遍我再念一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
18963.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
18989.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
有關中小企業研究發展人員之人才培訓支出列入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研究發展支出適用投資抵減範圍,於未來訂定執法規投資抵減辦法時予以明定。」沒問題啊?沒問題?好。OK。 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
18991.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
19015.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那我們現在宣布一下草野協商的結論也要麻煩各黨團仔細聆聽我們協商結論一、第三十六條之二條文照協商條文通過如後付二、第三十六條之四條文不予新增三、其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過四、通過附帶決議一項如後付 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
19020.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
19042.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
請問各黨團代表有沒有意見?那請大家再等一下,我們附帶決議先印一下,請專略選委發言那我再詢問一下,因為他那個36條之後我們這邊一直在講說本國籍基層員工我們在講基層員工不是就是在講中小企業裡面的本國籍員工嗎?為什麼還要再加本國籍?會不會有罪文? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
19046.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
19074.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我是說他們有沒有特別的定義沒有關係財政部理事長請說基本上是沒有特別定義啦基本上就是希望都是鼓勵我們本國員工嘛就聘願我們年輕的本國籍員工這樣子請侯孟凱委員發言是那這我也是請教我們大家都願意為中小企業來努力我們也都照顧基層員工但你在這裡面特別新增基層兩個字那你的定義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
19076.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
19102.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為你原本的條文裡面都是寫本國籍員工嘛是是是那因為法條我們應該要嚴謹我怕的是說通過之後中小企業無所適從什麼樣認定是基層什麼樣認定是非基層是年薪超過多少是基層年薪這個經濟部他們因為我們這個在授權執法規裡面會有然後經濟部有初步統計過是不是這個部分請經濟部來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
19103.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
19114.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對所以說我現在就說因為條文之後一定會被挑戰就是說基層的定義基層員工定義是什麼月薪五萬元以下叫基層五萬元以上是高層還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
19117.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
19140.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那個李署長要補充嗎?那目前是五萬元以下啦那未來會6.2萬元以下就是這個法通過以後你現在說目前是五萬,未來是什麼時候?就是這個法通過以後通過以後就6.2萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
19141.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
19165.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
六二二就是界限就對了是不是?會在執法明定執法上面會明定OK好那各位黨團幹部就在我們等最後附帶決議一個文字稿好OK印下去了下去了好的好的都傳了那現在已經發到各位黨團幹部手上那再請各位黨團幹部看一下我們這個三四 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
19167.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
19183.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
三十六條之四的一個附帶決議有關中小企業研究發展人員之人才培訓支出列入中小企業發展條例第三十五條研究發展支出適用投資抵減範圍於未來訂定執法規投資抵減辦法時予以明定。大家沒有意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
19184.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
19187.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好,沒有意見太好了,非常感謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
19463.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
19482.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝各位內閣官員請坐接下來跟各位黨團幹部來特別介紹今天列席的我們內閣的閣員第一個是金管局的彭主任委員歡迎您在證券期貨交易所張局長歡迎您臺灣證交所林董事長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
19487.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
19499.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
總經理檢總經理財政法人中華民國證券櫃台買賣中心陳董事長李總經理財政部理事長負稅署業主長勞動部勞動條件就業平等師王專門委員法務部林參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
19513.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
19531.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
向各位黨團報告也向各位閣員報告我們現在討論第二案有國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨黨團提出《證券交易法第十四條條文修正草案》那只有兩個黨團提出請本條文進附二讀我們請提案的國民黨黨團先說明民眾黨團請準備請國民黨團請說明請 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
19542.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
19557.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
對,你就他們講完,他們提案了,再簽了。對,沒有關係,民眾黨團請先說明。黃珊、蔡恩委員請先說明,然後國民黨團請準備。好,謝謝主席。我想這個案子是我們在財委會提出來主要是針對希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
19559.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
19572.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
中小企業加薪增加扣抵。這是針對上市上櫃公司,所以放在政交法裏面。政交法相關條文主要是在現行條文裏面有關企業將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
19575.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
19603.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
他的盈餘要提撥一定的比例作為員工加薪那這個比例的話我們希望是由主管機關跟勞動部一起來商量定之那主要是針對一樣也是希望達到一定的加薪之後能夠做相關的扣抵那主要是商事會公司可能沒有扣抵的需求他主要是用盈餘來分配所以我們是在這一條法條裡面以盈餘提撥的比例來作為員工加薪的部分所以就這個部分請大家能夠支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
19604.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
19606.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
19621.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
19645.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
二、人才要怎麼留下來我想台灣普遍低薪的問題我們一定要來解決我有很多很多各個產業別的人才現在都留到東南亞去了留到大陸去了我們要留住這些人才這就是過去我們的中小企業起來現在都成為上市上規公司所以把這些人才留下來沒有其他的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
19646.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
19667.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
整個薪資結構必須要來調整。」那我們現在這個等於是直接打強心劑。願意提撥更高的比例,盈餘讓員工來分享。員工也會更盡力的留在這個公司裡面,然後再更加的努力。就等於是員工也是股東的一個概念。 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
19669.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
19678.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
19693.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
19702.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十七條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
19711.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
19738.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以我們現在就是希望產業能夠全面升級以外還要把人才留在臺灣所以我們認為公司的盈餘應該要適度的增加提撥給員工一起來分紅就是加薪的一個概念然後給他們一個出稅的一個減讓好不好謝謝謝謝傅坤吉總召的發言接下來請柯建銘總召發言莊委員請準備各位議席官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
19739.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
19764.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
剛才我們還通過中小企業發展條例那中小企業去聘員工的時候我們給他租稅抵減率他有支出的我們給他租稅抵減那包括黃昌庚委員所談的和這個胡文煦委員所談的胡總統所談的就是說要留人才、要搶人才但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
19765.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
19790.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們現在談這個是不是你所謂強心計我認為這個大家邏輯上要先順一下第一個所謂增加法增加法規定整個證券交易的有序規則我想副總召一定很清楚增加法的問題那增加法規定包括炒股等等都有規定、內心交易等等整個證券市場上的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
19793.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
19807.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個,哪一一把這個問題放在增加法,是不是對?這個是有問題。有關於公司,這個市長,這個公司的治理,這個是在公司法裡面上,有所規範。 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
19808.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
19836.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
公共司法公共法兩百三十五條之一,員工要加薪多少,那是公共司法規定,各個公司章程自己規定,而且各個公司樣態是不一樣的。大公司、小公司、不同的公司,他本身他自己的樣態競爭利益上面,他應該用哪一種方式來給員工鼓勵。過去我們常常看到有所謂員工分紅配顧, |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
19837.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
19841.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
19858.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
19881.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
住宿舍及員工福利等是一個總體面來講但是今天這個法寫在這裏最大的問題是甚麼呢它是要讓上市的公司應該繳稅金我們給他遞減掉換言之就是說用國家的錢去幫上市公司加薪這個邏輯完全顛倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
19885.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
19906.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
你本來要交稅金的錢,現在你沒人交稅金,你只能加薪我給你抵稅這跟我們剛才在談中小企業發展條例是完全不同邏輯喔中小企業是要自己去請人、請人我們再發錢出去的哪裡有說我們是在保護,這是擁護財團嗎?這是針對財團,上次的公司都公開發行的啦,都是財團啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
19912.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
19935.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你臺灣應該繳的稅,你臺灣一天應該繳的稅,你去用在營工、薪資加薪商我給你抵稅,他都不去繳稅,不可能有這種狀態這邏輯是往前逆轉的所以大家要想清楚,好像是要,我是要,要用這個流入文財流入文財每一家公司他自己,公司法是自己規定的,他自己,章程裡面就是規範的我們要強調的是,現在是公司自己的時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
19937.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
19949.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
三十二公司還有新籌委員會讀總是新籌委員會委員所以整個三十二公司不同產業別有不同的競爭面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
19951.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
19970.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
大小有不同競爭面向,大到一種程度的時候,如果穩固它會來競爭力,當然是在研發上面,小的要變成南海,那當然它每一個公司的產業別不一樣,所以我今天在這裡強調就是說,看來是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
19973.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
19995.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
三十位公司結稅,叫他拿去加薪,但是你拿應該繳稅金去加薪,你就不去繳稅,這個邏輯是完全不通的所以只要謹慎想很想,不能笑,這就嚴肅的問題坦白講我等一下問金管會、問金管、問財政部,而且現在坦白講在鼓勵這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
19996.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
20010.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
在國益上面要加薪等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
20014.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
20039.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這有很多不同的措施,反正市民委員現在已經我從今天聽國務局委員他所言論台灣好像是完全沒有競爭力的國家好像台灣在整個世界評比上面是平均一個分我們現在股票只是多少,台灣還是有競爭力的但是我們要扶弱,要扶弱啦,記輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
20041.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
20060.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
不是讓這個負責他越繳稅越少這邏輯完全顛倒這是請大家在這一點上面要想清楚待會請我們財政部有機會會談一下因為這個法規範在不同地方公司法能跑到政教法上面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
20065.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
20075.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
專位熊委員發言之後副會務委員二次發言然後就請金管會財政部準備說明再接下來請黃山委員發言我們請行政部門等下表達意見請專位熊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
20078.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
20101.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
謝謝謝謝我們院長還有各位協商代表今天這個政交法這個的一個修正案我請各位看一下我們公司法第235條之一公司在章程應該在章程裡面去定名當年度獲利狀況的定額跟比例分派員工酬勞但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
20102.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
20126.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這個公司上有累積虧損的時候營運彌補也就是說經營公司本來就會有賺還有有的時候可能也會有賠那我們現在把它弄一個定額的一個比例針對於上市跟上位公司這個很怪這個就變成說上市上位公司的部分你只要我給員工多少的我政府提供一定的一個結稅給你抵稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
20128.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
20149.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我們剛剛在審的是針對中小企業可見你現在又變成是給上市上櫃的那又變成是說假設我是中小企業的員工那你現在就變成我們立法院現在通過這樣的一個條例是給優惠上市上櫃拿我中小企業員工所付的我們的這些繳的稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
20151.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
20163.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
來支援上市上櫃的人。」這個我就覺得這個邏輯就不通,剛跟我們剛所通過的這樣一個美意就有所衝突了。更何況啊,經營公司裡面本來就是有可能會賺,有可能會賠,而且呢, |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
20168.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
20183.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
最主要說如果你是上市跟上櫃的話你現在就是比如說他最在意的就是說我是不是台灣高興這個一百企業的裡面的我如果被列進去的話我本來就是大家都搶著要到我這個公司裡面來啊我覺得應該是用這樣的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
20184.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
20212.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
反而是不是會比較好一點?」所以我是對於台灣民眾黨是沒有講說沒有講到扣稅的部分可是國民黨你們這個部分就有提到這個部分是不是可以大家再來討論一下不然我很擔心剛剛你們提供的是大家一起來協助這個中小企業可是這個案一通過以後又變成說我中小企業的員工我賺了錢然後我又要來支援這個上市上櫃公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
20213.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
20237.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
這個我覺得是比較沒有道理更何況公司法針對這個部分反而定的更詳細你本來就是在章程裡面要去想清楚而且公司真的會有賺有賠那做這樣的一個修訂我是覺得可以再值得討論我也想聽聽這個行政部門的看法好 謝謝接下來我們請傅坤錦文發言請金管會財政部準備我要特別強調齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
20242.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
20259.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
上市上柜公司是佔台灣的一整年國家GDP的百分之多少?絕大多數的上市公司就代表中華民國整體的競爭力跟生產力所有的大部分的人才都在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
20261.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
20286.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那我們今天集體的薪資水平這不是我們用喊口號可以就喊完自己爽完就算了這跟其他國家比嘛我剛剛已經講過了嘛跟日本、新加坡、香港怎麼去比嘛這問題就在這裡嘛那今天我們說長期在這種環境裡面自滿那我們到底能夠流出多少人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
20287.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
20307.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
而且這跟中小企業這跟完全兩回事嘛什麼傑、好像我們在傑平、傑平濟富這邏輯就完全錯誤嘛是你要繳的稅不是中小企業繳的稅來貼你上市上位公司這完全邏輯這完全對經濟商業不懂嘛這完全經濟不懂嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
20308.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
20330.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這就是根本是你本來應該要繳給國家的稅這個部分去刺激你公司能夠讓你公司的員工有更多的收益公司自治原則這本來就是這樣但是我們國家是給你一個誘因讓你能夠有更大的力量留住人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
20331.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
20355.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這怎麼會是怎麼會是好像拿中小企業的錢我們今天很務實的在講事情嘛是不是拿中小企業他徵聘人是國家給他減稅啊徵聘人國家給他減稅那像是貴公司是你自己少繳一點稅但是給你的誘因是什麼你要把這盈餘多提撥給你的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
20356.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
20384.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
不是要上市不是中小企業繳的稅拿到你上市貴公司來補貼這兩件事情嘛對不對這完全不是怎麼回事嘛比喻都不對嘛對不對然後這個公司治理原則你有累積虧損本來就有累積虧損嘛累積虧損本來就可以對不對未來的營業可以抵嘛抵十對不對這個十年以內都可以抵嘛五年還是十年以內現在現行是五年還是十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
20386.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
20414.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
十年限期十年以內可以抵稅。」這抵到就是你這個坑鋪滿了以後就可以派息派盈餘嘛這但是跟員工的待遇這還是兩件事情嘛對不對所以我們今天要針對題目來討論這個題目的問題我們今天國家的集體上市櫃公司的薪資本來就是跟我們鄰近的這些國家我們過去本來在台灣的黃金時代就沒有辦法像日本這麼高的薪資那是事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
20415.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
20441.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
但是在新加坡在香港以前遠遠不及台灣的時候對我民國78年去聖桃沙新加坡他們落後成什麼樣子現在薪資是我們的多少倍那更不要說我們這裡一流人才跑到澳洲去打工對不對去做屠宰做什麼我們薪水我們的三倍所以我們今天很務實的討論這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
20444.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
20450.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這上市規公司是我們國家最主要最重要的GDP產值都在這些地方我們讓這些人才留下來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
20451.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
20479.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
謝謝傅坤祺總召的發言接下來我們聽一下行政部門金管會財政部的報告之後黃珊珊委員、吳思瑤委員跟莊瑞雄委員請準備我們先請彭主委請是主席、各位委員、各位各部會同仁那個有關證交法第十四條修正那個本會的說明如下第一個其實這次修正有兩個條我先說一下國民黨團所提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
20480.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
20507.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
十四條條文修正草案第五項有一個地方增加了所謂的個別酬金的揭露首先就我們政交法現行的規定對於董監的那個酬金的揭露是採統包式的揭露我們這次的修正是提說要先做個別的全部的揭露過去我們是基於市場競爭以及個人隱私的考量我們是原則採就是原則上是個別不揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
20508.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
20524.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
就不個別揭露但例外情況公開的方式。」所以我們過去在歷來透過行政的規則裡面已經揭露了八項應該揭露的原因就比如說像各位都知道像有個肥貓條款就這家公司如果他明明是 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
20525.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
20529.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
20543.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
20546.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
五條條文修正條例部分條文修正條例部分條文修正條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
20563.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
20590.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
個人隱私還有就是所謂的那個市場競爭的考量我想這影響微乎其微但是我覺得這部分現有的機制已經很好了他是採用這種方式我們的立場是有關那個第五項的部分國民黨團所提那個能不能維持原來的條文就個別那兩個字可以不要不要做這樣因為我們現有機制應該可以來做運作那第二個是有關國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提的第六項的修正就是剛才各位委員在討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
20591.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
20610.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
就是裡面有一個新的規定是強制規定上市公司有盈餘的時候應提撥一定比率來加薪當然金管會對提升國人薪資水準這樣的一個都是支持的但是我們對於以立法的方式強制就有一點點那個疑慮在這邊跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
20611.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
20639.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
就是通常一般公司的經營決策這個還有就是它的所謂的公司治理有它自己的一定的原則這個如果是用法律直接介入到公司的經營說你要怎麼做你的股利政策或是紅利政策或是他們應該怎麼來分配通常這跟比如說公司治理跟供應決策是有一點點不符那我們覺得尤其是我們現行的規定如果把它說有盈餘的時候就要強制的加薪但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
20640.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
20669.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
公司有時候可能沒辦法長時間保有這個盈餘所以公司在獲利的時候通常有時候他基於長遠的考量他會說那不是每年都是晴天所以他可能就不會說今年他會考慮到未來的景氣之類的所以這個都是涉及到商業判斷那我們通常比較不恰當用一個法律的規定說你今年賺錢就要加薪而且況且剛剛那個我們其實過去公司法剛剛有 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
20670.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
20671.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
20687.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
20687.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
條之一 。但公司上有累積虧損可以彌補。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
20708.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
20734.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個會比較符合橫屏的這個概念而且其實還有一個其實這是會計上的問題我們帳上的盈餘常常是只是會計帳上的盈餘它並不代表是一個以實現就可以分配的數字比如說我們會計上有很多未實現的收益它會是在那個帳上是列為你的就是損益表上的收益這時候很有可能它感覺起來有賺明年可能又價格又波動了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
20735.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
20760.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這也是為什麼考量說獲利是不是跟一定要加薪這件事情是會有一點點政策就是他們經營上的考量那其實過去金管會也很在意這個加薪的問題對上市櫃公司我們做了很多鼓勵他們去加薪的這個機制而且我們透過強制揭露資訊讓他們同儕去比導致這種同儕的壓力其實過去的績效其實蠻好我跟各位報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
20761.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
20782.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們根據那個交易所的統計過去五年來我們上市櫃公司平均的加薪就是加薪的幅度超過了20%大概21%左右然後他們的酬勞就是年終獎金的增幅大概有63%所以因為上市櫃公司都是國內體質較優而且都是國內代表型企業總共這1800、900家的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
20785.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
20810.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這是相對它比較優質而且他們在整個照顧員工上面現在已經有一套的機制所以過去在加薪上面也都不是我們擔憂的點這我剛剛聽起來跟中小企業的條件比較不好需要政策來鼓勵這是有一點點不同所以過去他們都已經在反映他們的營收的時候也都在加薪上面去做而且金管會在這個力度推得越來越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
20811.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
20835.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
通過同儕說你的同業裡面大家都這個薪水你為什麼這麼低啊所以他們就有加薪所以我們也看到了過去上市櫃公司他們非主管的薪資的平均薪資過去幾年來增幅其實也蠻大就剛剛跟各位報告也有21.38那上櫃公司也有16.07所以這是遠高於我們一般公務員的加薪的這個幅度這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
20837.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
20843.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
20853.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
20859.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
三條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
20871.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
20872.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
財政財政財政財政財政財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
20888.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
20906.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
是主席還有各位那基本上其實剛才那個彭主委已經有說明了這是上述會公司對於這個追求永續經營還有持續的獲利他其實是他自然本身他的一個企業社會責任也是為了要跟股東員工好共同來分享利潤 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
20906.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
20919.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以為了員工加薪其實是企業社會責任一個衡量的非常重要的指標目前我們也看到上市櫃公司他們薪資調整的情形我們曾經去統計過他112年的調薪狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
20924.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
20947.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
他們都是依據營運績效、員工表現及員工年資事實為員工加薪以一百一十二年度為例,大概有半數以上的上市貴公司都有條薪而且有百分之三十以上的上市貴公司條薪比率大於百分之五 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
20947.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
20954.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
二十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
20970.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
20992.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以我們是覺得這個部分其實基於上述跟公司他們其實公司治理的原則我們似乎應該就是以他們自己的獲利動機他們的營運績效還有他們瀏覽人才的策略來做一個自己的評斷那我們也看到就是說如果用這個黨團的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
20992.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
21007.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為現在只有國民黨團提案是希望在租稅上面給你優惠那我們有去估計大概110年度到112年度這三年的話平均的這個調整的情況大概稅省會到100億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
21009.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
21025.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
如果只是單一年度,尤其是他們獲利特別好的那一年110年度的話,他的那個損失就高達178億元所以這個真的對我們財政的收入影響非常的大那也基於政府財政資源有限的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
21026.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
21043.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我們是希望說這個租稅優惠措施似乎沒有提供的必要性那我在這邊也要特別強調一下就是其實我們為了扶植我們國內這些上市櫃公司這些產業我們已經提供了很多的租稅優惠措施尤其在現在像產業創新條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
21046.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
21058.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那些租稅優惠措施很多中小企業他可能不符條件他沒有辦法適用但是我們這些上市櫃公司幾乎都可以享有我們現在已經提供的不管是研發的頭底還有就是智慧機械的頭底、5G的頭底還有就是像我們還有一個產創十條之二就是給這些關鍵高科技的產業具有影響國際產業鏈的這個公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
21072.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
21075.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
21090.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
21104.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以我們也建議我們能夠參考一下就是上市貴公司他自己本身的營運情況他們會做適度的調薪那我們是不是要在這邊另外給他一些額外的優惠以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
21105.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
21132.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
謝謝財政部說明接下來請黃珊珊委員發言胡思耀委員請準備謝謝委員我想我們大家都聽完了那臺灣民眾黨的版本並不是要給他租稅的優惠我再強調一次所以我們這邊的條文的我們也知道公司法其實有規定了有規定他引於提撥的部分透過章程是可以給到員工的酬勞但是一樣的他在章程裡面有訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
21132.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
21137.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
21154.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
21175.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
二十三條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險法及全民健康保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
21180.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
21207.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
員工當酬勞的過程裡面一般公司是要靠公司章程但是我們希望上市會公司有一定的法源依據而且我們在這個條文裡面我們講得很清楚我們並沒有堅持一定要多少比例我們還是希望主管機關跟會同勞動部來訂定你們可以延伤我們只是希望給你們一個法源將來有這樣的一個權利我相信儘管會在管上市會公司也有相關的機制來給他們有這個法源依據將來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
21209.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
21235.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
相關還是可能需要非常多的細節這個我們會希望就授權主管機關跟勞動部去討論但是我們並不是要去突破現在的法規而是希望說在公司尤其是一般公司他用章程來限制的時候其實對員工也不見得那麼有幫助我們希望說上市會公司多負擔一點點責任也希望他多賺點錢他的盈餘分配一定的比例下來也不會影響到他整個公司或他繳稅的狀況以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
21237.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
21238.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
條例部分條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
21245.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
21271.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好謝謝經過一輪的討論我就歸納幾個重點就是今天在討論的政交法十四條的修正裡頭那當然提案委員都是利益良善希望可以給出一些政策工具的參考然後來鼓勵企業加薪而且是這裡針對的是上市櫃的大型公司但是利益良善到底是給對了強心針還是有可能下錯藥這個是我們要嚴肅去面對的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
21274.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
21301.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以幾點呢?第一個我當然同意放在政交法就是怪怪的你如果要放原本的公司法兩百三十五條之一或者是你有其他的勞工福利相關的勞動法規或者是如剛剛彭主委講的你可以選擇在其他的稅法當中去規範放在政交法這樣一個管理政交、證券交易所有的這個程序什麼的這種作用法真的是很怪的事情第二件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
21302.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
21320.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們能不能夠用立法強制的方式去介入公司治理這是很重要的事情我相信去問問上市櫃公司的企業老闆他們會不會同意即便我們可能出發點是想要幫助照顧他們的員工可是你這樣子過度的用強制立法而且是強制的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
21322.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
21327.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21337.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21352.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
所以這個我們覺得要非常的小心第三點,如果要鼓勵上市櫃公司對於員工來加薪,我們有沒有其他的政策工具其實是有的嘛,我們目前的做法就是用這個公司治理相關的評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21353.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
21380.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
來處理它,也是我們最常用的一個政策工具,或者是現在有很多的indicator對不對那這也都是現在最常用也都是業界都習慣也熟悉也接受的方式這是重點所以這一點我也認為如果用強制的立法去去去做的話這個東西是大有問題的好那如果說沒有立法的話沒有改這一條的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
21382.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
21406.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那這些上市櫃公司就都不會為自己的員工加薪嗎?不是嗎?剛剛已經有數字我們在研讀的時候也發現到30%以上上市櫃公司都是員工加薪5%以上這個是沒有這個立法他們也會做因為對於他們追求他們的很多的指標、公司治理的評鑑他們都會去優化自己的內部的公司治理這是本來他們就會去做的事情第五件事情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
21408.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
21417.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
三條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
21436.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
21452.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
增加了大概一百七十億以上的稅損這個是我們可以承受的嗎?或者是說是值得的嗎?或者是說是正確的嗎?好,最後一點就跟剛剛的中小企業這是本質上有很大的不同,兩個不同第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
21453.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
21479.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
就是規範的這個公司的規模不同中小企業跟大型的上市櫃公司我們要給予它的剛剛講我們對於現在的上市櫃的大型公司這幾年來的稅務的減免優惠已經非常非常多了剛剛那個財政部說好像大概六七百億一年嘛所以再給它一個那我覺得中小企業可能覺得哇有相對的剝奪感第二個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
21482.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
21495.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
之二就是員工我們鼓勵對中小企業的員工來加薪我們剛剛那條還非常細緻的針對新聘的24歲以下的員工或者是壯士代65歲以上的員工然後是基層員工我們幫助這些基層員工絕對是我們非常樂意去支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
21501.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
21518.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但是現在像是瑞公司的這些員工多數都是相對在收入上在政經地位比較高的這些高階的或是中高階以上的這些正確從業人員所以用真的我不想講這幾個字但是很有可能會有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
21519.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
21534.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案、全民健康保險法條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
21544.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
21563.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那對我個人我作為立法委員專業立法委員在看這個條文我真的是最重要是覺得這麼我六七點的原因裡面我覺得兩件事情最重要就是立法強制介入公司治理我們真的要神聖進行第二個不同行業 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
21564.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
21571.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
的相對比較與剝奪感。我覺得這也是我們要橫屏去思考的。好,這是我的報告跟分析。 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
21583.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
21606.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
不是我悶啦是你大小眼啦是你大小眼我倒也不認為公司裡面的上市或者是上櫃啊他看起來就是比較偉大比較會賺錢這個是一個假象反而我認為在我們台灣啊中小企業裡面這樣佔了98%以上那整個就業人數啊900多萬人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
21612.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
21617.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
21632.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
21645.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那你如果說我們今天去把它修訂了說你上市上櫃你賺的錢你一定要提撥一定的比例來把他們讓我們的員工來讓他們加薪如果講到這邊我還稍微可以接受但是你的做法是說那我用抵稅的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
21653.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
21679.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這個我就不能接受為什麼不能接受?除非你中小企業都加進來那我覺得就又比較公平一點啦不然怎麼會變成說我超過百分之九十八以上的一個中小企業就變成我沒有享受到啦這也好奇怪喔那我剛那個舉例啊我覺得我舉例的太棒啦不是我不懂是你婦婚期完全就不懂你看到的是說哇!那中小企業那家老大賣的那外國啦中小企業最大賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
21681.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
21696.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案。我反而會認為就是說立法院當然我們現在是立法院是無所不能啦愛怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣啦但是也不要忘記了公司的治理裡面你太過於去介入的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
21698.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
21721.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
是否恰當?」當然公權你可以去介入,立法院可以這樣去規定可是你規定到說你提供一個一定的一個我訂多少,你去加薪後我政府再來讓你當年度,就是超過的部分扣抵當年度營業所得的提高到百分之一百五十我如果中小企業,我會覺得我沒錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
21724.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
21727.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我會有這種想法,我會覺得我有相對剝奪的感覺。這個其實每一個政黨都可以來做一個討論啊,不是說你看了以後,我會說你也很好,你跟我說什麼,看起來只針對我的言論。這個太沒有禮貌了,這個太不學無術了,這個不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
21746.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
21753.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這不是你總召好像我就比你矮一截我不吃這一套那重點就是說這個真的是要講道理我剛特別去提到我開宗明義就去講說我們公司法裡面就明文規定說在章程裡面這樣去講這個才是公司的一個治理那什麼就是全部要求有公權力機關你就要把我們來訂定公權力機關就是到最後你財政部靠靠了之後他今天要入価加薪的我來給你抵扣當年度的所得稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
21776.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
21781.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
到150這個對中小企業反而百分之九十八這個我覺得這個就不公平了看我看來這個就不公平了以上這是我個人一個小小的一個看法角度不同我角度不同你也可以反駁我我又不是說我不好我不是說你厭討我不好謝謝莊銘選法我們請柯建銘委員發言請林思銘委員準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
21805.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
21816.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
二十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
21835.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
21859.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
來,我希望能夠持命而論,大家和我講,今天氣氛是不錯今天不是在討論違憲亂真的,所以不必動氣這個是民生法案,而且方總召也不在,這個場控更清楚那我講啦,立法總是要立法體力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
21861.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
21890.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
立法體育就是什麼法應該放在什麼地方,綜合法應該放在哪裡,稅法應該放在哪裡,勞動草案應該放在有一定的立法體育,各位都是立法委員。既然公司法所規範的就應該在公司法,公司法所規範你把它弄到證監法,雖然你有你的主張,我們待會,對於主張如果再留待等下再討論,也就是說一定要在正常軌道才能夠來談正常的事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
21892.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
21906.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我希望說各位應該有基本的認識有所謂基本法、有所謂作用法、有所謂組織法所以我們都一定要把這個先弄清楚所以我不介意 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
21907.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
21923.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
公司法的東西來放在增加法。增加法是歸於什麼大家都很清楚了。證券交易、遊戲規則等等,它上面底下執法一大堆。那是為了保障善良投資人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
21925.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
21950.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
好,這個第一點,第二點就是說有關於這個剛才賀文綺委員所談的我並不是要故意要武力你,我從來不相信你啦你今天所談的言論好像台灣打仗已經是快要倒了台灣的產業環境很差,台灣現在是在世界競爭力上面是一個非常落後我們今天股市才看到2300 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
21953.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
21969.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
二、三、五、六、六、台積電再多賺五千元,很多廠牌相對指數都不錯。這是一個整個台灣的軟實力、硬實力所加成起來的。造成這樣的一個競爭利益。 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
21972.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
21981.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
所以我希望就是說大家要弄清楚今天最大的問題是在什麼地方?今天問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
21997.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
22025.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這副總統講過新加坡現在薪水多少新加坡薪水多少沒有錯紐約薪水美國薪水多少沒有錯那你看他房價物價指數新加坡你要買這個車子先花五百萬先花五百萬說有地方停車子再來來的車子至少一千萬所以就每個地方的生活水平素質物價稅制都不一樣所以單純比一個薪水的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
22026.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
22038.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
是有失公允美國的薪水是我們這邊看起來美國的薪水都好因為我小孩都在美國上班可是在新加坡上班都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
22039.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
22066.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
但是相對三萬之一靠稅金票所以租房子也幾乎靠三萬之一了如果你會的話所以坦白講的話我們對於員工的薪資是每一家公司的勇氣發展上面他一定要故意的嘛所以所謂ESG上面包括他社會責任每一家公司都要有他的社會責任嘛他從勇氣到電照都相準嘛因為薪資一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
22067.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
22093.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
行政院很低,相對中小企業人家差人家跳槽了公司最大市場的只是員工嘛還有RD常常做的事情,常常看貨市場嘛這事都是要員工的,因為董事長沒有用所以我們現在談就是說回到正門經營上面好像看起來說你甲親甲親我來減稅減稅是什麼?他要交給國家的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
22094.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
22101.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
若非您前面拿稅錢去撲推這少數的商事會公司這邏輯絕對錯誤了所以我只是希望說大家冷靜一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
22104.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
22120.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
就是說這個法,難道可以這樣一個例子,我照稅審,剛才,剛才檢察院副部長講說110年度的話1781,你看明年度將近幾年度,今年度它是110年到112吧,113的時候,那時候的稅審是怎麼樣,所以那個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
22127.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
22151.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我們要了解這個尺寸以一律的法造成國家尺寸當然為憲法所不符這立法院審寫一個法照教授國家尺寸況且你這個是逆邏輯逆邏輯很奇怪是補貼這個財團嘛所以這個我想大家要冷靜一下要慎重考慮萬萬不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
22154.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
22176.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
接下來請林思明委員發言、傅昆吉總召請準備好,謝謝院長、各位委員我想針對說這一條可不可以定在我們的政交法我想我發表我個人的想法其實我們今天在談的就是上市上櫃公司上市上櫃公司它就是我們政交法所規範的一個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
22178.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
22197.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以我們在這條裡面就規定說上市上位公司他的員工的加薪他的盈餘由應提撥一定的上市上位公司應提撥一定的盈餘給來作為員工的一個加薪的規定體力上我們認為是沒有問題的這個是應該OK的 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
22199.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
22214.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
至於說這個這樣的一個規定為什麼我們會提這樣的一個規定我想我們大概一直在講立法利益良善嘛大家也認為說這個公司的這個盈餘由大家員工來分享這大家都贊同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
22215.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22235.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所以我們提這個這一條的一個立法的一個目的就是希望該除了剛才瑞雄講的就是說你的公司章程有相關規定以外但是公司該我們的主委或者部長那個市長也講到很多上市商會公司他都會去把他的盈餘分配給他的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22236.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22263.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
但是是一定必然嗎?不一定,不是一定必然所以我們立法給他一個法源那個基礎說如果你這個上市上位公司有盈餘的話提撥一定的比例給我們這些員工我想這是一個非常好的一個規定這不是強制而且我們沒有把比例多少把它規定下去這個還是授權我們的這個相關主管機關他去定一定的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22264.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22286.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我沒有把它縮短,你要訂多少由主管計劃,他自己去衡量嘛第二個我想說為什麼我們講說這個一定要這個如果說他提撥稅後盈餘啊為員工加薪比例超過1%的時候他可以超過部分扣抵當年盈利所得稅額可提高到150%我想這個就是一個誘因啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22290.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22313.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
對我們希望說這些上市商業工你有賺錢你給你的員工來分紅這個才有誘因啊讓你可以抵稅否則他幹嘛要這樣做所以我想我們這樣的一個訂定絕對是有他的一個立法的一個目的不是說我們就隨便亂訂啦我想我們請民進黨委員也要去瞭解利益良善啦不是你講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22315.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22343.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
為了什麼要讓國家稅收減少不會減少因為稅後盈餘他的比例多少由我們的授權主管機關來做以上謝謝謝謝林市民委員發言現在我們請傅坤祺總召發言那個院長我們在這裡做一個很沉重的請求我們從二月四號協商到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22344.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22373.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
立法院是一個國會殿堂而且今天還有這麼多官員在這裡我們不要齁真的把這裡丟人現眼在國會沒有任何事情不能討論大家可以抒發自己的想法但是不要變成習慣陳志然一再在這裡草引協商做人身攻擊你可以講出你的想法都沒有關係點名人身攻擊如果再這樣的話以後協商我都不簽了我要再強調一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22375.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22401.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這不是不給院長面子這是踐踏國會沒有有什麼事情不能討論各自出發看法大家都承載民意但如果每一次協商都是人身攻擊點名我們這沒有意義了這個核心訓練我現在特別強調齁今天所有的東西大家都來討論這個也是我們黨團討論過的不是我個人的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22405.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22422.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
所以我要特別強調上市櫃公司是佔了我們國家多少百分之多重的一個比例的GDP而且上市櫃它能夠上市櫃它是要多少能贏於達到百分之六以上它才能夠上市它本身就是模範生而且對於人才的集結讓它的業績能夠持續的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22433.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
22457.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
其實它的周邊上市櫃公司有很多的中小企業這個都是一體的嘛大家是整個大的一個cycle在整個國家的生產鏈裡面嘛對不對這個因為他們就是龍頭所以他們在前面能夠往前帶動的力量更大所有國內的企業都可以雨露均沾 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
22459.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
22485.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
而且是不是要用怎麼樣的一個方式我們也是授權行政院 對不對來訂而且授權的內容都可以討論嘛 對不對那對於啊我們一定要強調兩個事情我們要理性來討論事情不是說這一刀分這有什麼圖利有什麼什麼講這些這個東西真的是差太遠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
22487.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
22499.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
我們國家有多少的租稅減免對這些企業集團我們從來沒有說那是什麼補貼財團什麼什麼不是這樣嘛你國家本身有這些制度去支持這些企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
22509.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
22527.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這些企業都有在支持,租稅減免甚至補助等等都有,但是重點在哪裡?這些有到員工身上嗎?我們今天主要Focus的重點就是在員工身上所以我要特別強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
22531.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
22557.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
如果而且這個部分都可以授權這個行政院來訂定比方說比較也可以像剛剛中小企業一樣你說什麼樣的薪資以下對不對這都可以講啊啊你說那個經理人你說張忠謀你人夠多了音樂部分可以不要分擔那個都沒有關係對不對我們把這個事情提出來因為這裡是國會什麼意見都可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
22559.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
22583.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
大家一起來討論,把這個事情讓它明確化,讓我們的國家、澳門國家這些企業,上市櫃企業本來就是這樣的,所有企業的龍頭本來就在這裡。我們一起來推動,用各種不同的想法。那我們還是希望說因為上市櫃公司,它所擁有的社會企業責任是很重大的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
22585.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
22608.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
當它在進行的時候,很多的其他的企業要跟進,我們也都歡迎啦。若非上市公司,這中小企業也要求要這樣做,我們當然也可以支持啦,為什麼不能支持?對,但是我們總要先把一個穩定獲利的這個區塊,穩定獲利的區塊就是上市貴公司嘛。它沒有一定的體制根本不能上市嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
22610.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
22639.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以由這個部分成為我們國家員工薪資的火車頭來往前邁進我們這個部分來帶動這是我們的一個想法而且是國民黨內還有很多的委員要求的我們才寫了這個法那這個法內容細節都可以討論沒有關係最終還是授權行政院來訂定對不對那個時候我們很多細節要怎麼訂會更加的周全 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
22640.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
22664.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我們都歡迎但這個事情是絕對大家來討論沒有問題的好不好柯總召發言莊瑞雄委員請準備兩位委員發言完畢之後洪委員發言然後我就要念一下草野協商的暫時的好不好請大家踴躍發言然後最重要是經營管會跟財政部要不要思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
22666.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
22679.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
有沒有可能在大家都可以接受的情況之下重新擬一點你們可以接受的範疇等下我也喊一個休息有一個黃金五分鐘你們現在可以思考一下如果這樣能達成共識是最完美的好,請柯建銘總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
22682.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
22699.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我先針對剛才副委員總召所談的事情我認為就是說大家有不同意見的爭辯就是在人身攻擊這個要分清楚曹偉強是談不同價值理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
22700.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
22725.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
假如說不同價值理念就是說人身供給的話那根本不是協商所以要把它分清楚正式涉及到人身供給的部分當然我們已經會有警惕的我真的當然講比較清楚所以不要把這種協商當作丟人現眼我自己今天讓全國人民都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
22726.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
22754.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
都很理性啊也沒有嘲笑也沒有亂亂讓大家見馬如章啊都是非常理性而且都是在談法理的問題今天最大問題就是說我承認分區委員所所參的他是政壇他代表他們黨團我也尊重但是今天不是我們黨團提出來就不可以討論的這是一個跟外討論的場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
22757.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
22778.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那要給企業一些社會責任本來就是有了每個企業一直在強調的所謂企業社會責任CSR那各企業在這方面是非常在拼的公司自己都很重要非常多專家在看待這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
22779.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
22793.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
要給企業一些誘因、incentive。」本來就在廠商交易,剛才廠商部長講很多,現在出售誘犯很多。那你說這個是火車頭嗎?我不認為這是火車頭。這個火車是開不動的,沒有辦法開動的。因為邏輯上這大問題就是說,剛才分區委員所談的, |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
22803.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
22823.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
通過以後授權給行政院去處理所以問題你授權給他他也沒有辦法處理假如你有辦法處理沒有違反公平正義原則他怎麼處理呢你這樣一修的時候就是上市費公司才能該繳的稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
22824.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22842.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
沒有了,拿去給零工加薪,然後政府來抵稅,啊這個有稅損,那誰來出啊?這全民的虧損啊,這個邏輯上不通,不然啊,其實你要談什麼都是可以談,另外法治面也不通啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22843.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22854.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那有關勞動法規則都好像很容易去談嘛這是我比較認為這一點今天我們在這個地方必須要所計較大家在一個水平上談這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22855.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22875.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
不然的話要談不同的事情這個整個這個軸線都不一樣的話坦白講在講到最後可能會批評喔這也不好所以我不知道韓英文所謂黃金五分鐘他們要怎麼打造出黃金我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22878.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22880.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22896.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22902.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22917.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
22933.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
剛福根市委員提到了說這個是鼓勵的啊這沒有強制這怎麼會是這個怎麼會沒有強制你現在條文是講說擴大鼓勵上市櫃公司為員工加薪上市櫃公司你年度應與應提撥一定比例欸不然你把它改成是得的話我看誰給你提撥你把它改成得的話你不寫那個應的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
22938.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
22956.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以說啊,所以我就是挑戰你啊所以嘛,你怎麼會覺得說好像是...所以我就跟你講嘛,你寫這個因我如果從這個文字來評價這個叫不懂的寫法嘛這沒有涉及到人身攻擊嘛這本來就要接受挑戰的嘛我的重點在什麼地方呢?也像譬如說我們一般在講說上市上櫃公司是,形象很多大部分都良好上市上櫃公司景氣不好虧損的也一大堆啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
22969.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
22971.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
22988.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
22994.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
23015.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
23030.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那我就沒意見了那這個就很理性的討論那就變成說就像台灣民眾黨講的台灣民眾黨講說我就不幫你定那個比例那如果站在民進黨的立場我們也肯認說這個條文的意義要幹什麼但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
23031.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
23046.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
這個手段到底對還是不對?可不可以強制到強到這樣的一個地步?像比如說我政府部門我就可以來強制說你應該把我提撥到多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
23048.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
23077.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我是認為這個手段是強了一點因為公司也會賺錢可是他真的也會虧錢那如果講說因為你叫做上市上位公司我不覺得上市上位公司比較厲害台積電稍微賺大一點那當然厲害上市上位公司了解的一堆了解的也一堆所以兩相權衡我是覺得要去引導上市上位公司來用這樣的一個誘因來幫員工加薪我肯認 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
23078.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
23092.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
但是可是中國國民黨黨團如果副總召講說我沒有要強制那沒有要強制是不是我們從這個因的部分是大家來做一個考慮以上提出大家來做參考謝謝周瑞雄委員發言我們現在請侯孟凱文發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
23094.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
23124.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我第一次發言我想這個證券交易法我們也協商了快一個半小時其實歸納一下我還是強調對如同我們剛剛講的任何法條協商的時候我們都不需要人身攻擊的部分大家各黨團都是三長各黨團也都是人民選出來也因此互相尊重當然這可能原木求魚可是我們還是要強調如果說法案的討論都要變成是人身攻擊的話那院長真的很抱歉我覺得你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
23124.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
23148.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
到我們在講話的時候大家要插話那我真的不知道是說大家互相尊重在哪邊再來啊我想最重要今天我們提出來證券交易法的核心重點在於是什麼就希望是上市櫃公司有盈餘的上市櫃公司能夠幫員工來做加薪所以並沒有存在說所有上市櫃公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
23149.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
23163.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
剛有代表也講是說如果說是上市櫃公司今年是沒有虧損的咧他就不存在在今天討論的範圍裡面因為我們的條文寫得非常清楚有年度盈餘的上市櫃公司所以是有賺錢的剛剛我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23166.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23187.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
剛剛我們的財政部次長有提到一個數據他說去年有50%的有盈餘的公司有調薪有30%的公司有比較大幅的調薪你們看到的是50%有調薪有盈餘的公司有調薪我看到的是那為什麼另外50%的公司有盈餘但他沒有調薪呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23188.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23197.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這就代表什麼?這就代表是說現在確實存在的狀況就是說有一些上市櫃公司他即便他真的有獲利但他沒有把他的獲利給他的員工來分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23198.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23222.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23223.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23237.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那這樣子代表什麼概念?就希望是說真的體質良好並且真的上市上櫃公司他的盈餘已經有到一定程度的時候適時的能夠拿出部分的盈餘來給他的員工加薪這是正向的循環 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23238.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23253.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我們還是再次強調為什麼要有一些公司帶頭加薪就是因為要讓整個社會能夠呈現正向循環嘛最明顯的例子是什麼為什麼我們政府部門要優先跳出來幫軍公教人員加薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23253.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23276.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
三趴。」我們的卓院長也講了嘛明年要加薪啊因為政府的經濟表現亮眼啊所以要幫軍公教加薪啊一樣道理啊軍公教加薪的概念是什麼就是希望當作是火車頭能夠帶動其他的中小企業能夠帶動其他的上市櫃公司看到政府已經帶頭加薪了拜託大家一起來加薪形成正向的循環 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23277.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23306.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
軍公教政府我們可以用政府行政命令來直接講說我要加薪三趴那上市貴公司我們沒有辦法也因此我們才想出一個辦法是說如果能夠授權我們行政機關一定的比例以上年度盈餘的公司能夠思考讓他的盈餘來幫他的員工加薪這也是形成一個正向的循環那誘因是什麼?政策工具是什麼?就是給你們就是說我的賦稅有部分可以來做減免嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23307.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23327.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
剛剛也有代表提到是說像國家稅損一百億左右你們看到是國家稅損我看到反而就是那我們可以用這方式一百億的金額可以給我們所有兩千三百五十萬人只要他是在上市櫃公司的話他就有辦法有加薪一百億是不是這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23328.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23347.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
其實今天的狀況是國家上市櫃公司跟員工所以今天到底這個部分沒有要幫企業減免企業該付的成本還是要付只是他到底是用付稅的方式還是他把他的獲利給員工的方式這是我們今天坐下來討論的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23348.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23371.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
所以我們今天很負責任提出來這樣的一個法條這樣的方案就是希望能夠有更彈性的政策工具能夠讓我們的行政部門來去協助我們的企業只要你是正向表現良好的你可以適時的提撥一些部分的費用給員工加薪我想這樣的一個核心概念跟價值沒有人會反對吧我們要幫我們的台灣2350萬人的員工來加薪嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23375.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23398.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那最後我也講如果說你真的覺得說有些大公司大企業他撥部分的部分減免相關的所得稅就算是圖利的話那我請教我們有很多的條例是有這樣的政策工具啊那怎麼算所以千萬不要在我們這樣子大家坐下來討論的時候動不動就扣人家帽子啊你這就是圖利 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23400.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23428.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
說實在的話要圖就是圖希望能夠讓所有基層的員工能夠多一點點薪水就那麼簡單所以我拜託院長我現在講完了我想各黨團代表也都講完了齁那我剛看到二樓那個衛福部長他們已經等了兩三個小時了所以我只是想要請教到底金管會到底財政部有沒有這個空間多少比例你們有這個空間150%如果你們認為說太多要不要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23429.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23457.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
還是說你們就認為說鐵板一塊沒有辦法調那如果說沒有辦法調的話那這樣子就沒有共識啦我們在討論再三個小時也沒有共識啦但如果說你們認為有空間是不是能夠針對條文的部分來做個說明我覺得這樣我們才能夠進行下去以上謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言那我感覺財政部喔次長好像有話要講等一下是吳思耀委員要發言沒關係但是你要不要聽財政部我覺得他好像有話要...好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23461.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23473.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我覺得這個討論都很有意義這就是協商的目的就是讓彼此可以交換意見然後可以抽絲剝繭然後看到這個提案的本質到底是可行還是至愛難行我舉一個很簡單的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23477.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
23499.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我舉一個很簡單的例子大家聽看看我們今天的在處理上市櫃公司如果有盈餘就應當提撥一定的比例給員工加薪說得很好聽說得很好聽就是說我只是建議他然後應去做啊怎麼比例怎麼樣他們去定大家想看看你把這個上市櫃公司想像成國家政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
23500.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
23512.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
今天這個規範就等同於說政府你只要該年度稅入大於稅出你就一定因撥補一定金額的稅入來給全民發現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
23514.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
23532.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
是類似這樣的概念是類似這樣的概念但是國家政府的預算他有很多的必要去做的事情譬如說他要還債譬如說他要增加投資藉由增加投資跟建設來帶動更多的國家發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
23533.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
23546.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這事很清楚就如同回到公司的治理任何一個上市櫃公司他有盈餘但是他盈餘不是都放在老闆的口袋裡面而是他需要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
23549.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
23574.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
彌補虧損他必須要去增加很多的投資他更需要去保留盈餘來作為一些準備金有法規基的人都知道所以說我舉例來講這樣子的做法就形同我剛剛的比喻嘛普發現金人民聽得好開心上市櫃公司員工家聽得很開心可是你強制要求你就一定要這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
23576.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
23592.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
這個東西我覺得是過當的強制的手段去限縮了公司治理的空間如同立法不能過當的去把手伸到預算政府的預算然後強制要求預算要怎樣怎樣因為行政權是預算權可以編列我用這樣的例子大家可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
23593.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
23597.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
23617.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
23622.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
23636.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
23642.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
23652.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
23680.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
他們有盈餘他們有他們的考量因為一個是營運的考量一個也許他要增資、擴大資本也許他要還債也許他要做一些組織結構的調整所以他必須保留他的營運去做一些事情那當然是不是要作為加薪這個當然也是他考量的因素之一但是在租稅優惠上面據我們所了解從來沒有一個企業來跟我們要過這方面的租稅優惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
23681.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
23708.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
所以他其實不需要這個租稅優惠他自然就會去做他該做的事情所以我們真的不建議租稅優惠的措施在這邊額外另外提供啦所以我是建議如果可以的話是不是還是不要把租稅優惠的措施寫在法條裡面。謝謝。財政部謝謝您的補充發言柯建銘總召發言完莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、傅坤熙總召好,請柯建銘總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
23711.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
23728.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我剛才還是很仔細聽文孟凱,口袋是不錯的,講得很順,但邏輯完全錯誤,又一轉下去,真的很奇怪,今天邏輯錯誤,你還一直講下一頁,我是看到底你是在講什麼東西,重點這個是核心價值。 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
23729.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
23745.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
難道這個不是圖利,什麼叫圖利呢?我們就講這句話就好了。把應該交給政府的稅金,然後不要繳,拿去給員工加薪。剛才部長講了一句話,沒有一個公司來做這樣的要求,不是,沒有人這樣說啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
23747.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
23773.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
誰敢講這開熱口我不要繳稅金稅金我去做給員工請這個可以嗎所以這個核心你一直講的核心價值核心價值就是這個這個你是逆轉的價值的所以這一點先談清楚這一點不談清楚的話要給公司任何決策incentive太多了政府都常常條例很多把公司剛才也談到公司他的治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
23774.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
23797.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
他保險意義要多少?未來景氣他要保險意義多少?但是保險意義現在還有課稅還有課稅公司他未來景氣不好的時候他更要投資這每一家公司的parts有時是不一樣的這很清楚公司對員工的薪水本來剛才統計出來就是說上次的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
23799.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
23818.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
百分之五十以上都一直往加薪的路上去走因為物價指數調整的話你不一定給他加薪要員工違法所以很多公司他有不同的手段嘛我剛才講說他有stock option選擇錢、股票選擇錢也有員工互動配股什麼都有這些都是每一家公司的諸類優惠但是我要告訴各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
23820.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
23847.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
加薪、薪水高低不是憑衡量我要不要在這公司唯一的指標。情緒差不多,可是這家公司的文化很好,讓我有Promote的機會,讓我有學習機會,讓我有往上升的機會,這是企業文化。人家會看你我到哪一家公司企業文化比較好,薪水多少是差異不多的時候,那考量因素很多,包括工作環境, |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
23849.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
23857.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
23863.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
23878.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
所以很多包括員工福利、公司旅遊等等很多在綜合指標上來看待薪水不是唯一的指標而且我們今天講的核心問題還是這樣你不需要拿到薪水 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
23880.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
23894.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
23910.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
23920.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這不是人身攻擊,這是一個法理上的政變,請副總召予以見諒,不然人身攻擊了。我剛講的太含蓄了啦,我現在要把它挑明啦,就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
23936.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
23960.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
任何經營企業人都很清楚公司有賺有賠而且按照公司法的規定其實是很清楚的你像比如說你連續前面我到今年我賺錢以現在條文的設計如果通過的話就變成說你要提撥一定的一個盈餘你是贏喔提撥一定的一個比率作為員工的加薪現在我們條文設計是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
23962.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
23967.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
可是憲刑法的規定就不是這樣嘛除非你把公司法一併去修改嘛但那不可能修改嘛為什麼你企業今年賺錢你要把過去累積的盈餘你要先去做彌補啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
23976.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24004.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
不是這樣子嗎?虧損的部分你要先去彌補啊!你們所得稅法你們也是這樣規定啊!你們在瞌睡的依據也是如此啊!所以我的意思就是說你這一條一定下去天下大亂要引導上市上櫃公司透過一定的盈餘來幫員工加薪我知道這個條文設計是要達到這個目的我是肯認你們這樣的一個條文的一個初衷但問題是不能這樣定我的意思是不能這樣定 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24005.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24023.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
不能這樣定的原因就是說你這個是我今年賺錢我就必須要去提撥可是這是不對的我不能今年賺錢我就提撥一定的比例說員工我來加薪怎麼可以這樣我今年賺錢了我的公司賺錢了我全部都提供員工你們全部都是我的債權人你們一定是反對的我要先彌補虧損公司我要先彌補這個虧損才可以我們現在公司法的設定本來市民不是就是這樣子規定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24033.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24035.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以我的意思如果你去改不是因 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24036.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24039.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24063.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24074.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我反而沒有,我的問題點在這個地方。」所以公司法我再強調一次我次長你再回應我一下公司沒有撥補沒有彌補虧損的話可以拿出來像條文這樣設計來調高員工的薪水嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24083.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24107.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
規定是要先彌補虧損的。」是啊,連分紅也不行啊。所以我是再次的提醒啦。謝謝,我們現在接下來請傅坤吉總召發言之後,我要處理朝野協商的結論。真的謝謝啦,我想,我想,來,沒有關係。你是最好的學生,坐好。我想今天啦,大家, |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24110.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24136.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
這樣的氛圍我覺得很高興因為協商很多事情越講越清楚什麼意見都可以表達我們就事論事我們現在聽起來大家有提出了很多問題現在大概我們可以慢慢收納起來上市櫃公司我們今天拋出了這個球是不是以後中小企業一體適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24138.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24154.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24162.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24166.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
三十貴公司基本上百分之九十以上年度都有盈餘所以我們從這個區塊先來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24169.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24194.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24198.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24222.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這是一個工具給行政院行政院可以就它自來來期的部分把它修成可以來進行另外就是說剛剛我們執政黨有提到這到底是德還是因我剛剛已經講了嘛我們現在可以先進行用德嘛未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24224.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24234.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
該什麼時候要用因的時候我們再來再來調整因為可以嘛對不對老柯看到我就已經習慣性的他大概都不太會點頭他看到我都是搖頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24236.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24240.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24259.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24279.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
你再問一下好不好因為他一直Q到我不回答不吐不快行政部門議見表達完再發言因為下面的人都在等黃金五分鐘我們特別跟金管會還有財政部各位列席官員特別報告一下我們現在就是說我們民進黨國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24281.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24309.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
都已經有非常善意的經過討論之後如果我們四條第六款這個應改為德那請問一下財政部跟金管會接受度如何請表達意見下面其他委員發言德雖然是可以選擇但是這樣就會更不公平就變成說某些賺錢的公司他就可以不提 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24310.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24333.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24338.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24363.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
明年他少賺一點錢或者說他不想他有其他的用途他就不提撥這會有超重利益的問題也會超重租稅的套利這件事情我覺得德制我們是覺得可能更有利益的理事長你的思路非常細膩來得與不得中千萬難不可能的事這樣講很好會套利會超重我上次為公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24367.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24385.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
原本是在這個地方這不是給政府工具這不是政府的工具這個工具是要上次公司你來套利的工具這怎麼是政府的工具你弄一個他應該繳二歲免繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24389.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24398.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
我明不一致?相當一致。相當一致。我再說一遍。我才說一遍啦。不可以。一個遍啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24404.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24419.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
這件事沒有中小企業加薪我們加薪拿出錢出來才可以抵稅你這個要繳稅金不繳然後去研工然後來抵稅你是要付出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24419.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24434.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
變成國家變相補助納財團嗎?這不是同意什麼是同意這個法這個原則性核心問題沒有辦法解決以前你叫他選舉什麼都選舉不出來了而且我跟你們講一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24435.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
24449.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
你應該要加薪以後賺錢一定要加薪我們不論後面都有增長性黨後它虧錢的時候怎麼辦沒有辦法合適薪水加上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
24450.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
24473.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
所以公司老闆他們已經各種手段把你調來調去讓你坐不住讓你跑所以我們要講的是原則性的問題你一搞要條例要的條例除以外要條例這個絕對罷免不會通的啦副總長請你見諒這個一百面不通的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
24476.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
24502.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
你這個原點就是說你搞改革的稅金不高、電風車的稅準稅準給員工、讓國家的稅準這個是解決不通的這違反憲法七十條啦謝謝柯董事長我也沒有異議啊那異議沒有關係異議你要怎麼做是你的事情那是公司自己的事情謝謝柯董事長不是政策法上面有規範嗎謝謝柯董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
24504.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
24509.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我們已經討論了非常非常的詳細的各種角度的分析利弊之間、行政、立法系統等等那我嘗試性的唸一個朝野協商的結論請各位黨團幹部仔細聆聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
24526.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
24545.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我們協商結論第十四條我們就予以保留送院會處理沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
24546.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
24563.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
院會處理的時候,我們各黨團推派一人,一臺灣民眾黨、民黨團、國民黨團、輪、你等下發言不要急,每人發言時間三分鐘,發言完畢後我們進行處理。各位對我們這個草案協商我暫時訂的這個草稿有沒有意見,請。有,有意見。好,柯總長。院長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
24564.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
24566.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
24580.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
24607.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
你只要請教一個前金融會主委叫鄭明忠他現在在富邦當讀統他是最了解的你去請教他我們今天金融會主委在這裡這個是正交法可以規範這個東西嗎?而且整個邏輯不通請大家冷靜一下你想想看會不會問題是否費用太問他們敢不敢引鬥死這個事情這個大家都想一想嘛所以稍微冷靜一下好不好不用馬上說什麼表決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
24608.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
24617.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
24775.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
24793.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
各位黨團幹部來對不起因為衛福部部長已經等了很久了對不起我們我們對其他部會很不好意思我們請各位黨團幹部大家再忍耐一下那立法院黨團協商關於我們證券交易第十四條條文修正草案經過黨團已經非常充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
24794.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
24798.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
24819.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
24823.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們請衛福部來一下我們休息休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
25301.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
25303.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
各位黨團幹部謝謝我們今天現在我們衛福部的邱部長到了熱情歡迎歡迎邱部長我們社會保險司的劉司長熱情歡迎法規會的陳參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
25334.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
25338.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
中央健康保險署施書長、國家發展委員會人力發展處的阮專門委員、行政院主計總處公務預算處的廖專門委員、基金預算處的黃專門委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
25356.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
25383.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
全民健康保險法修正草案、要協商全民健保法的第六十二條修正草案共五條。」我們非常感謝我們王玉敏召委也到了現場。我們蘇清泉委也到了現場。陳金威委也到現場。陳昭志委也到了現場。大家都非常的熱情。黃正勳委,對不起對不起。而且黃正勳委是下午兩點就到了。你看五點我特別報告一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
25388.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
25403.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
對!對!對!對!大家兩點人都很關心而且以並案審查完均有三條委員王玉敏等19人、委員蘇清泉28人及公民黨團分別凝聚全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
25404.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
25423.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
二、禁服二讀的有兩案。謝一芬委員21人、楊千玉委員26人分別凝聚。全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。」現在我們主要大家關切的重點在於是否需法律明定醫療服務總點數每點費用的下限問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
25426.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
25450.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
我們先請召委我們先請召委發言好不好好請好謝謝院長還有各位委員還有部長大家好那我想這個未還委員會審理有關於全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案這個主要是我想立法院我們是民意的殿堂那這個一屆其實這個問題真的反應非常久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
25450.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
25452.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
25471.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
25481.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
來接見這八大醫事團體。」現行的醫界的困境我想在座有幾位也都是醫師包括柯總召也有醫師的背景我想應該都非常的了解第一個我要講的就是我們長期的健康投資不足這個是讓醫界現在非常困擾的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
25490.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
25511.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那也讓我們現在全民健保其實已經出現了非常多的困難大家都知道我們的健保很好用很方便但是呢我們如果跟其他國家比較起來我們現在整體因為投資不足所以導致我們在這一個包含癌症的這個死亡率我們的下降幅度比起南韓我們的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
25513.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25535.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
從2011年到2019年我們的下降率只有8.2%韓國的降幅達到20.4%就表示人家的投資跟醫學的進步其實是比我們更快的我們的心臟病標準化死亡率台灣下降9%韓國下降16.3%我們的腦血管疾病標準化死亡率台灣下降14.9%韓國下降40.1% |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25540.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25559.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
十四條條文修正草案、糖尿病標準化死亡率台灣下降17.2%韓國下降49.8%我們說全民健保是台灣的驕傲我們也一直認為是台灣的驕傲但是其他國家在進步的同時我們的投資其實並沒有進步如果你再看到這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25560.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25577.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
跟世界其他國家比較起來的話在這個世界衛生組織根據全民健康覆蓋指標台灣的世界排名並不是第一名我們是第35到37位在亞洲國家我們還低於日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25577.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25585.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25597.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25622.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
所以這個問題我們長期的投資不足導致我們在一些醫療的水準上面被日本跟韓國超越我覺得我們應該要看到這樣的現象這個也是醫界一直點出來就是希望我們應該要走勢的而不只是這樣子我們最近看到我們篩報急診病床前陣子衛福部的次長才跟全國各大醫院的這些院長緊急召開會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25624.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25650.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
為什麼?就是我們護理人員不足我們的關病床的現象其實是嚴重的然後導致現在新冠又上來之後所以很多病人他其實是沒有病床然後大排長龍連台大也大排長龍都排到這個大廳裡面去了所以這樣子的一個惡化的現象應該要解決而現在包括國民黨委員、多位委員所提出來的健保點子 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25650.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
25659.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
25674.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
25699.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
醫師背景的總統他在總統府還設立了健康台灣委員會那我覺得就應該要對台灣的全民健保我們的醫療投資要比過去做得更好才對所以這一次國民黨多位委員所提出來的這一個希望調高健保點值1.1元就是希望改善我們現在醫界長期就是我們因為給付不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
25700.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
25728.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
導致醫院要去做美食街、要去做停車場然後靠業外收入來補足我們這個健保給付不足的現象這個真的是有點荒謬也應該要改變喔我這邊有一個最新的函是臺北市醫師公會跟新北醫師公會他們最近7月1號新的函他們的函文告訴大家什麼最近新冠疫情又起來了然後呢他說他們現在醫療院所營運困難苦不堪言 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
25729.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
25757.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
因為他的換算成他現在的給付呢113年第一季我們的點值才0.81攤扣前甚至低於0.8所以讓他們覺得營運困難苦不堪言所以分別新聞給我們立法院他要求什麼他說希望大院立即啟動113年的點值撥補方案要去正視新冠肺炎病毒感染對醫療耗耗用的長遠影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
25758.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
25776.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
應該要挹注相當的費用進去總額的基期來雷滾才符合實際的醫療現況。」要跟院長跟各位報告的就是這個是醫界現在的現況真的是苦不堪言所以立法院我們作為民意代表機關就應該要呼應 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
25777.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
25785.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
然後要去體察這些民意他們真正的需求所以我們才提出這樣的一個法案也希望今天在朝野協商大家可以有共識我們來解決這個醫界他們現在非常痛苦的一個問題以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
25792.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
25808.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
謝謝王宇明召集人的說明跟所有黨團報告共同提案人有三位王宇明委員、陳昭志委員跟蘇清泉委員但民進黨的黃召集人沒有到等一下請民進黨的王振旭委員請王振旭委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
25811.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
25826.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
我知道啊不要急啊那等一下共同提案人那剛才王宇民委員所發言過的部分如果有重疊就請大家避開了叫我們來縮減時間重疊部分就不要再講了請共同提案人陳昭之委員發言蘇清德請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
25829.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
25838.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
共同的部分不提但是我把數字提供給大家比如說如果我們按照所謂的過去的NHK部長我也諮詢過我們是6.1嘛那OECD國家是9 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
25844.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
25858.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
25873.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
25874.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
有他們應該有的專業收入,所以他們被迫以藥養醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
25891.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
25893.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
二十三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
25904.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
25924.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
然後回到3.5目前大概是3.5個GDP照顧百分之百的民眾這件事等於Miracle叫奇蹟但如果這個奇蹟是包含我們因為我們保的非常好、完整熊小毛病到大感冒發燒、咳嗽流血到急重、寒症、難症都包含了所以這個叫做血汗 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
25925.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
25953.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以意見就是現在這樣子出來在我們真正能夠進入這個協商之中我想有幾個問題一定要由相關的部會所長來做一個處理在其實台大醫院的急診的病院床遇到這門口那個是台大教授傳給我的我就直接就請台大院後來他們來副院長跟急診部副主任來跟我做說明他們說明當然是跟疫情有關但是那個床已經遇到 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
25954.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
25981.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
大門不是在急診處急診處的一滿床是常態但是一到正廳的時候大門走進去跟鋼琴那邊都排在一起就跟活動區排在一起一來這個病房這個設施也是不對的隱私權感染每個人都在那邊咳嗽這個就是說還是讓它發生了但是我聽說其他的醫學中心也是這樣可是這兩天經過所謂的立委關注跟次長的這個介入結果今天說得乾乾淨淨 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
25983.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
26004.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
所以我覺得應該是有方法,衛福部這類是有方法可以處理的那我再繼續談,等一下有機會二輪發言為什麼現在有百分之四十,衛福部也要檢討,百分之四十的空床不管它是不是來自護理人員的不足現在全國有百分之四十空,可是你們手邊也有1.2萬床的病床同意了已經等著繼續開 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
26009.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
26035.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
所以這個東西你要同步去處理這件事情,否則我們未來一點也不過兩年,就是我們終來就算你給了到最後你的財務,你自己沒有辦法來處理。還有分級醫療部長,之前薛部長非常的皮、非常的頑固,他不承認這個分級醫療已經不見了。那我背的最清楚的數字就是健保實施前是醫學中心12家,區域醫院48家,然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
26039.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
26048.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
地區醫院六百多家現在是醫學中心二十六家地區醫院八十四家那個剩三百家這是你們要的醫療嗎?這是你們要的分級醫療嗎?到底你要怎麼去做這件事情是部長跟還有署長你在這個時間點接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
26057.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
26066.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
26087.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
26099.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
大病問題一大堆,為什麼賴總統要拿出一百億癌藥基金,等下我也要追問這件事明明講好是一百億,現在是東折西扣,開始把新藥預算又撥過來又撥過去怎麼變成是署長在籌錢,就應該賴總統院長要出來籌錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
26106.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
26110.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
26126.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
26143.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
三十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
26144.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
26167.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
但是現在又讓這個小病症大家都往這個大醫院跑所以今天為什麼讓大家不得不提出這個點子的問題就是部長你要重新再來好好想你怎麼去管理這個包括你的醫院評鑑我會要求以後醫院評鑑不是只增加醫學中心你們每一次醫院評鑑之後要提出一個衝擊報告對台灣的病人來說哪比好 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
26168.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
26190.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
多花什麼樣代價會怎麼樣你們希望怎麼做不要只是報告說幾家通過幾家通過然後完全不守醫療這個醫療網的這個規範兩百萬一家一中心現在台北區氾濫什麼樣當然點數一直往下降這是你們要解決問題因為這個都醫院的這個都是你同意的所以我執行薛部長的時候他竟然跟我說以前就沒遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
26192.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
26206.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那表示以後都不用繼續遵守嗎?又把它加碼嗎?部長你在這個時間很難為所以我想我是不是第一輪先把這些問題點我想等一下要請他們來處理謝謝陳教授委員接下來蘇慶委員請發言然後王振旭委員請準備謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
26210.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
26220.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
上個禮拜我們八大議事團體來立法院拜會我們院長跟江副院長那我記得院長講一句話聽到八個團體講完觸目驚心 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
26224.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
26250.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那我這裡,因為我做過私協理事長、區協理事長、全聯會理事長我又在我們的邱部長,在改造醫院協會,全聯會理事長我們的檢報,我們的檢報全民滿意度89.7台灣最大的穩定力量就是全民健保89.7喔,我們沒有一個公共的收入這麼高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
26251.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
26272.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
然後醫界的滿意度三十趴、牙醫三十趴、護理不到三十趴是怎樣?就用我們的踐踏、霸凌、著令、壓縮所有醫護人員然後來造就這一個美麗的假象 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
26273.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
26285.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
三個月他們到WHA去那邊宣揚,就是好,台灣好都好,結果必然要知道我們的醫藥投資是在OECD的末段班。而健保是要做什麼?健保做什麼?傻傻的,什麼都砍,砍到最低,藥也砍到最低。 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
26297.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
26318.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
點滴都出問題,這個根本沒有技術門檻的點滴也缺貨。」笑死人了,真的是。那為什麼?永豐的人我問他,他說你是怎麼回事?他說,他就給我一期收了錢,我就連付薪水、維持這點滴輸益的場就有困難了。培本的生意怎麼做? |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
26323.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
26329.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
一罐500CC的點滴,你合給他25點,點喔!點喔!結果現在去外面買,一罐要47塊,新加坡,1000CC的給他37點,結果新加坡要買我們107元台幣,現金187塊,3000CC的,他要買我們248塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
26349.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
26357.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
26378.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
26405.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
所以都是韓國、日本、中國大陸都合完了他們再來台灣健保局也是傻傻的我不是說傻傻不好但是你這樣一直傻傻到進不來所以為什麼新要進來?因為五百多天就是這個原因沒有人要來有的就撤掉那你鼓勵學民要鼓勵我們國產要這個我們也認同那再來就是醫療投資不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
26406.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
26411.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
26435.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
26452.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
我們的醫療如果繼續這樣幹我跟你保證平均壽命還會往下掉一直掉搞不好掉到77歲就跟中國大陸差不多啦不要笑人家中國大陸多爛北京、上海、廈門的平均壽命現在已經是81點多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
26453.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
26466.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
所以我們是在下降,所以不能再蒙著頭,一直堆、堆、一直堆堆、堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
26479.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
26494.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
所以這個是很過分的事情那一屆每一年的那一塊就是四、五百億三百億、四百億、五百億在我們黨企十幾年來它就是幾千億所以一屆現在受不了最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
26495.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
26522.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
我們以前的醫生像院長、像柯建銘委員、像王振旭這跟我差不多的我們以前當醫師、我們的主任邱太陽一樣啦跟我們說理想、說抱負我們就去那間家裡就在拼每天幾天一班、幾天一班我都幾天一班也在醫院我曾經就三年的心臟外科總醫師温酷三年一千多天也沒有應援 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
26525.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
26536.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
26542.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
26562.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
整個把新冠之前以前有特別預算到去年結束全部都灌到健保總額裡面結果健保總額大幅點子大幅摔掉下去好啦那去年那一點錢出來補不到0.9現在跟院長報告上個禮拜確診十萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
26566.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
26576.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
第十萬條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
26585.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
26607.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
跟百姓的承諾,希望比較有擔當的。總統你是醫生,比較有氣魄的。你講一點一句,你來做到最後。要怎麼做?當然也沒辦法。所以,我們今天講這個,如果今天要繼續這樣蒙著頭繼續爛下去,所有data就會再往下掉。陳昭之委你擔心的,會再更爛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
26609.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
26615.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
26625.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
26648.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
最初的上限制改成目標制這部分作為一些報告。從這個修法裏面是希望能夠保障點子是從王明明召委這邊是0.95、蘇信委員這邊是1元。如果不足的時候未來希望用公務預算的方式來編列這個內容。我們也知道剛剛大家所講的困境、委屈還有這些大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
26649.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
26653.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
26668.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
26671.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
26688.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
26715.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
民眾健康的需求。自從520以後其實我們也看到相關主管機關包括邱部長還有這個大家都努力的希望能夠擴大健保財務的這些來源包括有各種的方式我想這些內容大家也都已經有很多很多的理解跟了解那如果把這些健保資源透過好的方式納進來以後其實就有機會去讓這個點子 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
26718.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
26740.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
維持在0.9元以上甚至超越一元的目標來邁進,就是在不動現有的六十二條的母法之下,就可以有機會達到這樣的目標。」那這個目標我想等一下我們也可以請衛副部長這邊讓大家多了解這個部分。那如果我們現在用這個修法的方式來達到這個目標, |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
26743.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
26745.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
十四條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
26772.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
26781.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
26781.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
26804.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
如果真的依照這個修法通過以後那在預算的這個部分的處理我們怎麼去面對這種高額預算撥補的這個準備功夫這個也是我們所擔心的所以如果我們能夠透過這個擴大健保財源來做這樣的這個因應的話那是另外一個大家可以討論的地方那其實為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
26805.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
26823.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
為什麼會有這麼大的這個財政上的醫療資源上面的因應的不足最終還是人口老化跟醫療科技進步之下造成的影響過去這二十年來一開始好像可以逐步的來因應可是因為這兩年尤其是有COVID以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
26824.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
26850.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
不管是人口老化或是醫療科技進步的這種衝擊很顯然臺灣在健保制度一定要做調整只是調整了如何去讓這個調整可以符合未來的需求又不至於造成另外的衝擊這個是請大家共同來努力的以上謝謝王振旭委員的發言那等一下吳世堯委員發言之前我們還有一個醫生委員也到了我知道我知道沒關係陳經委員發言然後柯總要準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
26852.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
26876.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
謝謝主席謝謝官員還有謝謝重複的就不說了是謝謝三長對剛有提到因為有人會說這個健保點值如果保障的話會排擠到別人但是我必須說現在的醫療已經到刻不容緩的程度了我們有三個很急的事情一個叫做病床荒一個叫護理師荒一個叫生理食鹽水荒 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
26879.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
26893.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
但是這三個問題所有的源頭都來自於健保點子我現在給大家看這個圖這是已經是醫學中心的急診亂象這個急診亂象呢他是好不容易靠美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
26894.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
26921.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
十分之一的人力美國四分之一的薪水但是那天創下臨死亡率的記錄但當天所有這個亞東急診室的醫護人員說他們已經燃燒殆盡他們不確定自己五年後還會不會在這個職場因此他們拍了這張照片留念所以目前急診就算是醫學中心都呈現這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
26922.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
26932.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
十四條條文修正草案的程度。」剛陳肇智委員有說當然有衛福部的官員、次長關切過之後現在這些東西都已經說起來了不過為什麼人會塞在急診呢?好,我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
26937.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
26961.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
區醫院、地區醫院現在的關床率是多少?兩成到三成醫學中心的關床率大概7%對,大概到1%因為護理人員不夠所以病床在那邊但是沒有辦法照顧病人沒有辦法照顧病人沒有護理師的病床就只是一張床那我們看現在護理師他的需求有多大的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
26961.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
26965.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
我們現在只有18萬的護理師但是呢衛福部告訴我們說2030年全台灣需要24到26萬的護理師但是呢我們看逐年上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
26976.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
26990.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
每年我們只增加兩千名護理師而今年護理的離職率創下歷年來新高12%所以現在考上護理系的學生只有八成來臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
26992.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
27007.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
以前大家都會來念因為覺得是一個鐵飯碗現在只有八成來就讀而且離職的人越來越多所以依照現在每年增加2000人的速度是完全趕不上衛福部希望我們2030年達到的24到26萬護理師再來剛講到生理鹹水為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
27015.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
27017.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
他跟健保相關很久以前當我們都還是訓練的時候那個時候有三十幾家廠商在做生理鹹水我們在開藥開藥醫主的時候有很多選擇到現在只有一家而且他獨佔的是八成 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
27031.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
27052.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
因為健保點值的關係沒有人願意做這個當台灣發生了重大的戰爭公安問題全民會需要的這個生理鹹水而我們現在必須幾億幾億一路買到年底去跟國外進口當戰爭的時候這個進口也沒有辦法做了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
27054.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
27079.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
這個不只是生理鹹水其實還有其他的書藝、其他的醫材、其他的藥品他可能都在我們面臨戰爭的時候但只有一兩家他佔了市佔的七八成所以健保如果沒有馬上幫我們現在的困境止血恐怕其實上週剛您有講到第六波的新冠疫情在起 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
27080.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
27097.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
現在死亡率上週是創新高,比起上週增加了六成。依照我們這樣子的速度,沒有病床,會有許多的人滯留在急診,他可能新冠完全都沒有辦法住院的狀況之下,就又離開急診了。而這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
27102.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
27113.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我跟王振旭委員還有江啟臣副院長以及還有林一軍委員去了WHA所以這個王振旭委員也很常在委員會提到為什麼現在我們會講說好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
27115.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
27139.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
投資進去點值,我們就必須要牌擠到其他的預算,或是大家保費一定要上漲。可是,全世界各國的Data都顯示,公務機關對於全民健保的投入,就是遠遠不及其他的OECD國家。我們在洛杉磯管理學院,全球競爭率是第八名, |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
27140.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
27152.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
結果呢我們的健保支出也就是公務對於健保的支出是第41名這代表什麼這代表是我們國家的競爭力是極度的壓榨醫護血汗這個是三總院長臺大院長講的是長期壓榨醫護的血汗而達成的嘛所以健保點值1.1億人代表其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
27165.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
27177.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
除了國人的健康以外,還代表了醫護人員的工作權、醫事人員的尊嚴,到底有什麼工作一點議員是沒有辦法被大家承認的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
27178.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
27191.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
所以在這邊也很急迫的希望公部門對於健保的支出我們真的應該要大幅的上升大幅的上升不代表可以排擠到其他謝謝,謝謝行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
27197.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
27224.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
院長各位委員同仁我看到幾個都是異界同僚當然我沒有否認我是亞伊斯那一九九四年的時候整個金馬法修正我是在前場的人那時候我們難以忘記那三年三月二零一三的時候應該是二零一三開始總人的時候我都專去委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
27226.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
27232.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
整個大家都是異界人士我真的聆聽大家所傳的問題那我非常了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
27233.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
27260.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
但是解放難道是解放?要怎麼解放?我們直接討論OK剛才有施政委員還隨隨講過說有八大團體去看你其實他也來控告我然後很清楚那這些很多都是我老朋友很多都是老朋友包括做理事長等等各種都是老朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
27263.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
27283.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
這幫團體也一起在整個國民健康健保上面一起努力過今天面對這個困境我們要講實話不是解釋到底是怎麼一回事情比如說韓國的部門其實他佔GDP是8.4那韓國百分之六幾是智慧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
27285.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
27304.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
因為OECD六個國家每一個國家制度上是不一樣但是我比較不能接受的就是俄羅斯蘇聯盟,它是我中間的協力它把健康法講得一文不值你常常說怎麼這麼大聲,你剛剛講一文不值嘛並非如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
27307.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
27313.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
當然一個很簡單的道理我只是舉簡單的道理剛才陳醫師有講到三大級的問題病床、護理師、生理師我再講這個點滴的事情就好了永豐雖然永豐是壟斷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
27327.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
27345.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十五條條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
27347.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
27367.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
用很低的價錢去消耗競爭政府給他二十五塊、二十八塊所以他壟斷了市場壟斷了市場以後他品質不好不得不我們再讓大家處理實際應該講出來我了解是這樣因為坦白講我們這個這個有疑似同意反映過我去查過 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
27368.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
27394.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
所以要趕快緊急進口所以很多的因果關係你不要把它當作政府就是要在台下收你不會收的你不是做人如此因為市場經濟知識上面有些人的策略是錯的因為永豐他是營養貸很多款他有點那個他大牢不能打不然你要怎麼做那政府當然就這個時候政府不出手可以嗎好不好所以這個要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
27396.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
27396.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
所有現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
27418.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
27441.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
我想我在這個場域這麼久我也跟很多醫院的朋友跟我們打拼過我也和他一起在這個制度上討論過這條總和書當初就是牙科是我和石中去處理的所以我們了解整個制度上面我們現在已經到當然必須要檢討的時候這絕對不可否認 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
27443.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
27457.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
但是這個檢討的時候,你只是用說電保點資增加,增加一億塊錢,就用解決嗎?我們都要讓他想清楚。那陳昭志委員剛才有分級疫苗的問題啊,還有很多選民藥的問題,那選民藥是... |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
27461.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
27484.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那些本來就是市場競爭的問題嘛,整個是原廠的藥,原廠的藥當然就是選民藥的問題,但是整個就是國際競爭市場所以我現在講的就是說,我比較不傾向說簡單的一個結論就是說,把健保講的英文不值就不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
27486.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
27488.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
應該有短中長期的看法。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
27516.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
27541.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
假如說我們現在看啦,現在健保多少錢?8755億嘛健保支出過去5億到1.0的話已經上兆了現在很快就上兆了,都一直增加嘛反正你要到1.0的話,你只要保惠不增加的話我講坦白的,照正的依數是有限的但是健保就破產了 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
27542.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
27568.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
所以我們今天要很理性來談短期、中期、長期應該是怎麼樣不可能說我修一個條文就全部解決了是這樣嗎?我想應該也不是這樣大家都很清楚但是各位為醫界、護理界講話我都能夠體會我也希望跟他們講話我也跟他們對話他們看完韓院長來以後也到我辦公室來我是很坦承的講你們都為醫界發聲我都能夠體會 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
27572.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
27599.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
但是你假如說韓院長說這個第一又先把表決料就可以解決嗎?我不認為所以並不是如此那很多人把選舉政治的講法發作越簡單的結論然後用越簡單的條件就要把它處理掉各位那健保保費呢?可以不可以增加?你要先想清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
27600.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
27602.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
電子保險不增加的話電子保險增加這個問題更複雜問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
27606.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
27621.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
那健保還有健保會的整個可能是有一個很複雜的一個機制性是存在的將近健保已經今天已經30年了30年已經1994到現在1994到現在已經30年了那我們了解30年也要衍生一些問題要討論要檢討說那天我跟他們談話就是說就這個直播我有講得很坦白 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
27635.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
27660.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
因為簡單的就是說政治來處於是不可得的是不是說那邊有副理事也有說藥師講點滴的問題點滴的問題那也有企業院有一些東西都有包括一次工會做理事長那過去我們邱部長也當過理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
27660.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
27682 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
他對你很了解嘛沒有一個人不想在這方面做努力的這是我們現在有一個共同的看法大家都不想落下嘛我想保證一些事包括我們署長坐在哪裡每一個人都是想在這方面做努力然後來解決一些一些現在的困境嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
27682.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
27697.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
當然醫生到現在坦白講他們以前牙科是比較沒有差牙科還有指牙嘛還有矯正嘛現在醫生所有事實坦白講和過去不一樣那過去的醫生也蠻拚的蘇貞映醫師也當過尹從醫師也當過 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
27707.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
27728.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
環境面前的改變,現在的年輕醫生也不是說他也不是只有薪水的問題工作環境等等他也不想過多的診療時間以前我當醫生的時候我職業十七年啊我以前是沒有週休二日啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
27729.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
27733.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
27747.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
27771.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
我是走過這個勞保時代,走過這個時代,醫生還是,我常常講說我是亞裔,但是我有雙手勞動來維持心臟調通,我等天在運動,我有得到職業病,做久了以後痔瘡,HIVD,然後頭背都有,整天要滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
27771.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
27797.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
所以每一個職業都有牠的困境有牠的不同的態度牠的驕傲也有牠的尊嚴但是我們對於整個國家健保制度到現在我不否認我們共同的努力我們共同的努力結果今天必須面對可能要深刻來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
27799.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
27803.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
27815.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
27841.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
假如說用一個點子,我想是沉默上困難的至於政府的部分,我們知道有關36%的部分有在政府應該支撐的部分,應該可以有一些空間出來但是能不能滿足到各位所達到的理想當然不是那麼一時間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
27845.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
27862.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
謝謝柯總召發言接下來發言次序侯孟凱委員發言完畢之後沒關係那我們請邱部長還有施書長發言結束之後我們就請吳思耀委員發言因為我們聽一下行政部門意見我們再互動好吧請侯孟凱委員請好感謝院長我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
27868.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
27891.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
大家都注意到現在的醫療的環境跟狀況那我也特別注意到現在剛上任的這個邱太元部長也特別有提到就說衛福部要努力讓點值可以往上爬這個是邱太元部長這個四天前來一起講出來的那我們現在其實坐在這邊重點是什麼重點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
27893.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
27920.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
去年賴清德總統候選人的時候他就有演出來也有講到健保點值的問題所以其實今天大家坐下來應該是現在的行政機關現在行政部門告訴我們你們怎麼樣兌現賴清德總統當時在競選時候的選舉支票其實我覺得重點在這邊吧是誰提出來講說健保點值要一比一 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
27921.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
27933.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
27939.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
27955.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
在COVID-19的淚流感的申報量高於民國108年同期點數與補助應該1.1元來計算。」這是賴清德以民進黨黨主席身份在民進黨中常會的時候有說過的話之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
27958.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
27977.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
在擔任民進黨的總統候選人在一月九號的時候也講過他講說他要跟醫界一起召開優化醫療體系改革健保給付制度並且提出平均健保點值一點億元的目標讓醫界的辛苦不再被稀釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
27979.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
28002.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
所以我們現在重點其實在於是說大家坐下來各黨團委員或是說大家都有提相關的修法版本不管是國民黨黨團提出來是1點等於0.95元或者是有一些部分委員提出來1點等於1元那行政部門你們要讓我們知道說你們要怎麼樣兌現賴清德總統在今年1月9號所提出來的競選支票啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
28004.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
28020.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
而不是說選舉選完了之後雙手一攤講說沒有辦法或說如同之前的薛樂園部長他不是賴清德總統所指派的衛福部長所以他講說健保一點等於一元這個他做不到那時候他在衛福委員會講是說他做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
28021.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
28048.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
那現在新任的邱太元部長以前也是我們的委員同仁那你也應該因為你是卓榮泰院長所指派的衛福部長也算是賴清德總統的衛福部長那你要告訴我們說你怎麼樣幫賴清德總統兌現這個競選支票他既然去年他既然今年1月9號有講出來代表他有想過裁員他有想過方法那你要怎麼樣幫他兌現這個選舉支票 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
28051.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
28075.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
而不是說雙手一攤如果說賴清德總統一月九號的講法原來是說要增加健保費率那請你也講出來原來賴清德總統的目標跟方向就是大家提高健保費他就可以達到一點點值等於一點億元如果這就是賴清德總統的解方那如果不是你總是要負責任的告訴我們怎麼樣兌現這個支票 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
28077.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
28103.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
我想今天我們都同意現在面臨到的是一個醫療很大的缺口和很大的一個挑戰也因此我們不是說只有提高點值一點等於0.95或是一點等於一元錢是有一句話講得好人是英雄錢是膽沒有錢沒有預算什麼都沒有辦法我們再怎麼講說要挺醫界、挺護理人員、挺醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
28104.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
28121.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
十值的點值很重要但是除了十值點值以外我們也希望要求要召開跨部會的醫療改革會議因為這已經不是衛福部這可能是相關部會共同來討論這也是今年一月 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
28122.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
28138.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
九號的時候賴清德總統在競選場合講出來的承諾要優化醫療體系改革健保給付制度所以要跟醫界一起召開也因此我們今天剛剛有再提出一個附帶決議我也希望大家都能夠支持行政部門能夠支持就是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
28141.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
28156.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
醫療水準提高服務職能改革健保給付制度以及提升醫療服務水平跟給予國人可長可久的醫療品質我們要求行政院應該要召開跨部會的醫療改革會議提出具體的方案跟相對應的期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
28157.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
28179.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
所以這應該是要配合一起所以我們講了我們也剛剛尊重民進黨的代表除了點值我們要補充加強以外我們也要求行政部門要召開跨部會的醫療改革我們不預設立場因為醫療是大家的所以我們大家一起努力但我要拜託的是行政部門應該要很認真的看待我們今天的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
28181.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
28208.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
七點、零點九五或是議員做不做得到,我們一起來努力。」那還有後續的附帶決議。以上,謝謝。謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言。麻煩請邱部長還有司書長,請發言。結束之後請吳思堯委員,請。謝謝院長,謝謝各位黨團的代表、前輩們,還有各位在座的同仁。那我想聽了大家的發言真的非常感動。 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
28210.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
28235.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
因為我身為做了幾十年的醫界老兵跟蘇理事長一樣還有很多稍微比較年輕的王正熙委員跟我是差不多真的很感佩但首先我覺得我還是要跟大家一樣跟全國的醫療人員致以最大的敬意跟謝意大家無論在任何的條件之下包括在防疫的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
28236.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
28259.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
因為我當理事長我知道需要哪裡做篩檢需要哪裡做第一線的防護所有的醫療同仁都衝進去從來沒有問我這次去有沒有多少錢多少代價這樣子我們台灣就是這樣的一個精神所以我必須要跟全國跟各位一樣的精神跟全國的醫療人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
28261.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
28278.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
百年來對台灣的貢獻再次以最大的謝意。」我今天是用衛務部部長的角度來感謝大家那我特別還感謝各位今天所有在座的以及關心我們怎麼樣讓健保永續怎麼樣來改善醫療環境所做的任何的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
28280.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
28298.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
這都是非常為了人民的健康真的表達向各位表達最大的敬意跟謝意那我必須柯總召雖然不在但是我必須要感謝他在過去我當立委八年來許許多多的醫療的困境包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
28299.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
28314.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
我們打點滴那個處置費的一百塊等等的各方面太多太多的事情真的柯總召就站在人民的健康跟醫療環境的改善當中柯總召我必須要因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
28325.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
28340.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
因為我畢竟都是帶著跟蘇理事長一樣我們都帶著五萬多個醫師還有很多很多的醫師團隊一起在努力我真的要感謝我們柯總召過去八年來真的對醫界的貢獻所以他今天會有很多很多的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
28341.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
28360.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
我想都是有它的道理所以我想我也不重複所以我們當然是怎麼樣去改善這樣的一個醫療環境方法應該是相當的多元化途徑也很多那是不是我們就在立法來保障點子這個部分可能真的不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
28361.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
28387.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
唯一的辦法。」那是不是好辦法當然大家在研究但是我們擔心的當然是財務上比較無法臆測以及控管可能會失去控制的一個機制還有就是可能會比較讓政府沒辦法來規劃來照顧偏鄉的一些困難的一個科別另外至於是有沒有財政紀律法這個部分也是大家所擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
28388.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
28410.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
也許這個請等一下主席總署方面也可以做一點分析那剛剛我的那個每次在廁所碰到洪孟潭委員的時候他都叫我學長學長我比他真的很客氣他剛剛質問我的問題非常非常的犀利我們都是地下一樓的一樓派的 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
28412.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
28439.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
他問的問題我講犀利但是我必須要跟大家報告賴總統他以身為他是一個醫師他強烈的對人民的健康跟台灣要更健康有強烈的意願的一個企圖心的一個雄心大志結果雄心是每一個關心醫界的人的一個都是這樣子都是希望人民更健康所以在他當選的那一天晚上 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
28440.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
28453.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
就打電話請他的恩師陳志宏老師開始籌備召開健康台灣論壇所以在那幾個月當中也邀請了一千兩百多位 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
28454.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
28467.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
二十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
28475.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
28488.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
甚至十大建研等。」我剛剛回應黃孟涵兄的那個委員的一個我們現在對其中裡面第一個策略就是要健保改革那健保改革我們第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
28490.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
28492.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
政府以負擔健保會的計算內容,應該以健保規範為先。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
28513.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
28537.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
哪裏補助哪裏補助通通算到政府應該付出的36%這一個地方我們最近也盤點出來大概可以得到140億只要36條這個如果弄清楚另外當然健康台灣有希望36%到38%這個有可能需要修到法意見是希望40%這個都可以來討論但是我們列為第二階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
28543.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
28570.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
第二個就是部分總和項目改為公務預算之應。」這個最近我們說實在我們衛福部日以跟健保署日以繼夜在處理這件事情我們把所有的應該在應該是公務應該是公務預算來支出的不應該把它塞到健保了把它挪出來機場也有兩百億、幾億啦這些當然我們可以慢慢的來分幾年來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
28572.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
28587.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
那另外額外的這個也是賴總統關心我們癌藥那有的藥就要說療效確定了以後那個等一下可能那個署長會報告但是他要用啊這個時候你不給他用 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
28588.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
28607.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
所以這個部分從去年開始就有一個暫時性支付由這樣衍生到第二年可能會六十億這個六十億都幾乎是公務預算第三年我們因為不需要那麼多所以不要說跳票第三年就會到達百億全部都是公務預算這個到怎麼樣來運作這個我們還在研議當中但是這個沒有問題絕對三年內會成立所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
28615.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
28636.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
這是現在已經有累積下來的那將來我們當然會考慮到個人補充保費的扣費上限我們希望富人來多承擔來照顧弱勢全民健保就是我們照顧弱勢這也是我們的使命所以我想如果比較有錢的比如說扣費上限從一千萬調到五千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
28639.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
28660.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
補充保惠法更公平的部分。」這樣的情況之下最後一條才是打開保險率的一個上限6%,那個就是要調整人民的保惠,但是這個我們用最大的魄力不願意去做這件事情。兩年內我們希望不要去做這件事情,全部用我們的這樣剛剛處理過的,我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
28664.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
28681.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
應該是至少會達到當時賴總統的至少要0.9那當然是往意義方面來努力,那我相信只要一直努力一直努力,然後當然也不是這樣子還有很多的措施要做,那個因為你必須要節省很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
28682.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
28708.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
一致不必要的支出包括推動分級醫療、加疫制度、低風險的應該讓基層醫療來。」這個其實我們昭日委員很一直關心的分級醫療怎麼落實。我很敬佩啦,因為我跟昭日委員的先生郭醫師是同時在臺大醫院住院醫師同時一直在值班值夜班,晚上從整個晚上沒睡覺跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
28709.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
28713.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
28733.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
28754.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
就可以讓我們醫院得到醫療院所以及醫事人員的薪水都可以得到比較好的一個對待。那我在這邊也誠懇的,如果說立法上面是比較大家擔心的,也許是不是給我們衛福部一點的時間,我們好好把這些事情做好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
28755.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
28783.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
我想行政院左院長也非常的支持所以我們會一年的時間把它做好,如果真的比較有碰到困難的時候我們都同心的嘛,就是一直要為這位人民健康來服務那個時候我們是不是再來訂定相關的話,那把配套措施弄得更周全那我相信將來如果真的要立什麼法有配套措施的話,那一定會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
28783.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
28787.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
更為我們台灣的健保勇氣留下一個歷史性的貢獻。」以上報告,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
28802.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
28820.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
院長總召還有各位委員各位先進那謝謝剛剛這個所有委員的指教那我就就這個本案那麼從分別從健保的法制面財務面跟執行面來做一些補充的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
28821.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
28844.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
第一條從法字面而言在全民健康保險法第六十條明定那麼執行總額預算制度六十一條明定總額預算的協商制度以及依照分區門診跟住院的分配總額的分配那麼第六十二條則明定依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
28846.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
28868.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
前三十四總額制度計算點值據核算醫療費用。因此,如果我們今天在62條新增一個點值的保障,將會使得我們整個總額制度就不再是總額,因為它 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
28869.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
28884.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
後面預算需求無法預估。」所以這是第一個在法制面上從總額制度上來看跟保障點子這件事情是有相對的第二個是從財務面來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
28886.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
28908.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正� |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
28914.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
28930.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
這個執行上會面臨到財務上的非常嚴峻的挑戰那我也必須在財務面上也跟各位委員報告總而制度在2003年實施的時候當年度是3774億到去年2023年那麼整個執行是8364億在這中間年平均成長率達4.27% |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
28943.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
28950.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
28969.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
28983.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
二十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
28990.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
29005.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
29005.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
29033.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
是以前瞻性的預算然後從後面執行完之後的點數去計算浮動的點值但是我們也有很多的措施是採取固定點值也就是保障1.1塊錢或者是用支付標準的加成來遂行政策或者是去調整一些需要被保障的醫療服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
29034.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
29057.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
舉例而言在我們的離島地區今年的所有的住院的點數通通是加成30%這個也就是考量到在偏鄉的投入跟在本島的差異那麼比如說我們在今年對兒科困難的集中症的部分我們也予以加成20%到30%共投入的3.8億 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
29059.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
29076.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
另外,為了疫情後看到了感染科的重要性,我們也投入了2.5億,設定了感染的計畫。再者,在一些醫院,我們現在一般的醫院,手術費的部分也是保障1.1億元。 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
29077.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
29094.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
三條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
29096.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
29116.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
支付標準的差異化達到平衡醫療資源的目標。所以如果一旦齊頭市的保障點值1.1元的時候,那麼就怕我們在資源的分佈上會造成更大的失衡現象,所以這個我們也覺得需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
29117.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
29142.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
很多的解方來解決剛剛各位委員所指教的問題但是恐怕不容易只是以典詞保障這個事情就可以達到而且更造成在財務上的壓力之後我們就更難有餘裕來進行這些健保的改革以上的先簡單的說明再請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
29143.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
29161.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
主席總署的代表要不要講兩句話請剛剛部長直接點名你我們請吳世耀委員發言謝謝主席主席總署在這邊補充說明因為這個案子基本上是貴大院的提案那不管是我們的預算法 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
29162.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
29188.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
財政收支劃分法 還有我們的財政紀律法 裡面都有提到當我們修正法律會大幅增加我們政府稅出增加財政負擔的時候他必須在法律裡面去彌補他的資金來源那本次大院所提出的這個提案並沒有這樣的處理那會有違反財政紀律法的問題那人請大院還是要依預算法去事先籌頭相對裁員必須彌補資金的來源以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
29203.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
29208.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
29221.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
29248.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
29251.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
29252.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
29273.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
29293.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
這絕對是我也敬佩敬仰大家想要改良臺灣健保制度的用心包括我們邱太元、邱P。那司堯是區域立委我不是一介出生但是我今天在這裡發言講話我代表的是選民我盡可能的代表人民我代表的是民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
29295.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
29322.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
人民對於健保制度剛剛從裕民委員或是我們的這個親權委員都提到健保是臺灣的驕傲將近九成百分之八十九點七的人民對於健保制度感到滿意所以對健保的使用者就是人民來講人民在想什麼人民思考的是一定要一個永續的健保人民要的一定是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
29325.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
29346.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
穩健改革的健保。」人民要的一定是在健保的制度下區域的醫療資源是平衡的人民要的是健康平權能夠在我們的醫療健保制度的支持下每個人都有這樣子的權利這是人民的思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
29347.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
29373.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
而不是如果就這個一點完全站在醫界的觀點他可能會有不同的介入當然我們都非常的認同也支持我們必須有效的去改良醫護的工作環境絕對要做我們絕對要大力的去增加國家對於健康跟醫療的投資一定要做賴清德總統也因此要成立委員會他自己的健康台灣的論壇一場又一場彰顯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
29375.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
29403.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
他就是要去增加對於臺灣醫療跟健康的投資我們也一定要去改革健保的制度這一定都要的人民的觀點是這些也是我作為一個立法委員的觀點但是今天回過頭來我們要改良醫護的工作環境我們要去增加國家對於醫療的支出投資我們要去改革健保制度用保障點值是唯一的solution嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
29404.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
29417.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
又甚至直接用立法委員、月組代庖、用立法修法的方式來將典值的保障入法,它是一個對的、是一個好的方法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
29418.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
29436.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
我剛剛在上一場上一個議題的協商的時候我就講我們希望給強心針我們立法院委員的工作是修法立法給相關的政策強心針可是有可能是下錯藥有可能是開錯刀有可能是後座力過猛 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
29438.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
29457.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
一刀斃命所以我站在人民的觀點我們不能因為一個太過急切的而且單一優先以立法修法來點植入法來作為改革剛剛這麼多醫療問題的唯一解方而他帶出來的副作用可能是讓健保破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
29458.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
29480.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
他可能或者是讓人民必須買單來面臨可能的健保費的調漲。」我要用人民的觀點來說在政治面上非常謝謝大家都非常的關心賴清德總統在選舉期間的說法我們要再一次的還原賴總統他說的是他希望能夠讓點值絕對不要低於0.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
29483.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
29498.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
而更要努力地往議員去努力。」這是他的全文那今天邱P也好新任的衛福部長上任幾天他上任的天數就是賴清德總統上任的天數520到現在是第47天 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
29500.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
29521.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
所以要往這個目標去努力他需要有中長程的計劃而行政部門、衛福部包括賴清德總統自己跳下來健康台灣的論壇就是要中長程的去逐步用各種配套跟改革開源或節流用公務預算來處理原本健保的支出等等剛剛部長都報告這需要時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
29524.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
29552.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
而不是一個上任47天的衛福部長或是總統然後大家急切的說我來替你履行這個證件就是用修法立法的方式來做到點值1.1元我要講那不是他的全文他是說朝這個方向努力所以他需要一個時程逐步穩健的去達成而不會去造成過度用藥過猛的副作用第二個我今天坐在這裡我也非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
29553.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
29569.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
有很強大的感受就是我們下一個議案不知道今天可不可以協商得到叫做電業法同樣在野黨提出來的電業法是要用立法用未來來取代現在的電價審議委員會用立法的方式來決定未來的電價是漲或是降 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
29570.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
29587.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
這就是用政治來干預專業我們今天在處理全民健保法六十二條某種程度也是要用立法的方式然後去破壞了過去長久以來2003年建立到現在的健保總額協商的制度他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
29588.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
29607.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
四大總額協商制度及各區總額協商制度及健保會就是要用專業來解決專業的醫療問題。我們不能用政治角度或立法委員立法的方式去介入漁業專業的事項。我一定要在這裡提出,我們沒有辦法。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
29608.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
29634.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
也不應該當然剛剛我們主席總書的同仁有講財政紀律法我們立法委員本來就不能去進行增加政府預算支支出的立法修法這件事情這一屆的立法委員好像都不care我們自己才修過的財政紀律法也更何況這是憲法七十條所要求的那好剛剛我講政治面我現在講到政策面回到政策真的要審慎思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
29638.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
29650.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
典值入法就是實質的去取消了現在的總額制度,這個不用我們已經講到爛了。健保這麼好,愛之是足以害之。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
29651.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
29677.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
如果因為這樣一個粗糙的典值入法的修法未來蒙受了健保崩潰的代價我剛說的人民的觀點他要永續的健保誰能負責這是行政權的權限不是立法院能夠來做就責任政治上如果讓健保制度受到強害總而制度形同實質的取消誰能負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
29678.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
29703.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
第二件事情財務沒有辦法精準的去控制沒有辦法去預估剛講的如果0.95元是705億如果1元是1155億但這恐怕都是低估啦所以說如果一個財源沒有辦法精準的去評估控制這個總額制度這個協商什麼的我覺得我們都不能簡化說我修法一句話解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
29704.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
29725.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
第三個就是人民很在乎的也是本席很在乎的如果因為這樣我們去挑戰逾越了城鄉的那個平衡因為現在的這個分區都在健保制度之下可以去確保不會讓強者越強弱者越弱對於所有的公民朋友來講他的健康平權不要因為這樣我們想解決這邊的問題結果造成了另外一邊城鄉差距失衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
29730.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
29753.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
的醫療資源失衡問題,誰能負責?」我要為人民講話好,那第四個我們講到我如果講錯的話這個署長可以更正我就是說目前的健保準備金是不是大概剩兩千億嗎?如果今天修法過了就是你要投入七百多億到一千多億你的準備金你現在兩千多億大概就撐兩個月吧?是吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
29758.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
29777.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
如果今天我們修了下去之後快速的要抽出一千多億搞不好搞不好對不起條賬健保費就是必須的全民買單我們今天修了這個法如果面臨要條賬健保費人民的聲音跟意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
29779.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
29802.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
所以從整回來我是一個區域立委我為人民講話今天我們修了健保法六十二條我們想要解決這邊的問題可是創造了更多的問題甚至在本質上他會去顛覆了實質形同取消了健保總額支付的制度我認為人民不會完全的理解跟支持我是區域立委再一次講 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
29804.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
29825.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
大家都是為醫界講話。」我非常認同所以我非常語重心長的我希望這個法大家多再深思不宜用修法的方式讓典值保障入法第二個也要跟院長這個懇求這麼重要的姿勢體大的健保制度的全面翻轉或是可能面臨的傷害或是癱瘓 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
29827.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
29851.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
也不應當也不可能是一次的協商會議就解決了然後就院會去進行處理用這種方式用表決我剛說的健保是專業醫療是專業我們不要真的我們都要去非常慎重的把這件事情從長計議來好好處理這是我今天完整的也聆聽了大家的觀點之後我進行的分析跟我的分享謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
29852.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
29878.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
謝謝吳思耀委員發言接下來陳菁委員發言稍微等待蘇清雪蘇清雪之後請陳菁委員發言謝謝剛有提到不分區立委跟區域立委我希望不分區立委跟區域立委其實都是代表人民我們這邊代表最基層的醫事人員陳昭芝委員代表最基層的藥師王彥明委員代表最基層的社福團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
29880.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
29908.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
所以希望不要把部分區立委所服務的團體就排除在人民之外剛有提到說這個許多財務面的考量但我也非常希望執政黨的委員還有官員都可以把公務的這個資金的撥補或是撥補到健保裡面當成對人民健康的投資而不是成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
29909.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
29932.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
一直提到總額、總額其實總額的成長率完全追不上醫療的利用率因為我們高齡化還有新藥科技等等不斷的納入健保最終我們把疫情後的照顧也一併納入我們當時認為疫情可能已經結束了但是我們卻罔顧了疫情一波一波的再起 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
29933.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
29949.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
所有最基層的醫事人員都有一個極限也有講到說健保必須改革而且這個健保改革要有短期、中期、長程的目標等等但這句話大概在九年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
29950.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
29976.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
蔡前總統上任前他就已經在健保改革還有醫事人員的白皮書對全國的人民說到說我們要讓醫療服務的價格合理化我知道長年以來為了不讓健保倒下健保給付給各位的點值一直在打折我們感謝醫師以及醫事人員為了守護國人健康所付出的犧牲 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
29977.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
30003.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
未來我們也願意來檢討健保的支付標準表同時不會只罔顧支出面的控制也會重視醫療需求面的問題這個是蔡英文前總統所提到的原文但是過去了九年醫事人員眼中看到的點值是打折再打折甚至今年的第一季今年的第二季都沒有希望可以達到0.9、0.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
30006.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
30024.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
都有困難。」所以我想這個短中長期的目標真的已經努力了九年了這邊剛剛好在立法院的圖書館找到了許多的執政黨委員、官員所提到關於點職的發言在2018年5月30日 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
30027.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
30043.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
二十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 、全民健康保險法 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
30047.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
30060.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
所有醫護人員醫事員權益導致血汗醫護現象難解並要求衛福部國發委員會於一個月內提出書面告並且做出具體的作為具體的作為第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
30062.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
30084.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
秋泰元部長時任秋泰元委員提到說要於三年內達成1.1億元之目標協助血汗醫護可以解決醫療品質可以提升保障民眾健康而且是不分黨派當時連署的有吳坤義委員、林靜儀委員現在的林靜儀次長以及我們國民黨的陳怡銘委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
30086.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
30108.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
好再來今年呢剛有提到區域委員我們也找到了劉建國委員他也是代表我們雲林的區域委員還有林俊憲委員不好意思是林俊憲委員2024年3月提案人是林俊憲委員黃秀芳委員連署的有王振旭委員林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
30108.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
30120.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
提到說近年來醫事人員不堪壓榨人力持續出走開始影響醫護照護的品質目前臺灣醫療的保健經常性支出佔GDP6.1%低於OECD國家的平均9.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
30128.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
30153.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
建保署管理者無止境的擠壓醫療現場的合理作為,反而忽視醫療人員的服務價值,長期控管與節流,也讓醫療人力跟資源只是勉強堪用而已。一旦遇到疫情或是戰爭,就會崩潰。醫療支出不應該視為成本,而是對人民健康的投資,並且提案1.0.95%。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
30156.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
30163.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
十五條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
30171.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
30185.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
但剛看到2018年邱太元前委員的提案六年前就要求1.1元已經過了三年又三年我剛仔細的算了一下距離部長上次提出1.1元已經經過2228天了所以在這邊其實我們也不是講出一個部長沒有想過的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
30193.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
30211.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
其實部長以前也曾經疾呼這件事情我們真的不是在希望你做一個很倉促的決定所以我也希望說分級醫療1.1元都是2018年邱太元委員的理想我們在這邊很想要一起把它實現謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
30215.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
30217.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
30227.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
30254.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
就是我們吳斯亞委員所講的還有柯建銘總召所講的他說我把健保批評的一文不值沒有健保是大家非常滿意將近九成的滿意度台灣有對一個公共政策有高聲的人支持我在講的是健保的總額預算制他把它界定比如說今年是五百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
30256.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
30272.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
他就五百億結束了,國安會發展了,就整個平台有議改。你議改做到五百、五十、六百的農林道的事,就除下來,今年每年都結算完畢。所以為什麼有0.9、0.8、0.6、0.81,剛剛兩個文都來了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
30277.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
30290.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
我們是在反對總額預算,就是把所有的財務風險全部丟給一屆。包括邱太在當委員,大家在當委員都說講得理直氣壯,現在看你這麼保險,你很窮。第二,我們是部分區立委, |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
30295.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
30307.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
我個人參加過三場大選選舉,我不是沒有選民的壓力,我不是笑的,我不是說我只是在替他出聲,韓院長參加得更大型,所以我們都是從基層上來,將來要繼續選的,我如果後備部我也是那種唾棄。第三個,全世界現在在做總和的,只有中華民國台灣,其他沒有人在做總和了, |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
30325.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
30352.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
德國做住院總額做一陣子也不敢做了,他的不足,今年的不足還可以拿明年的來補,就是卯吃掩涼,隱身卯涼,國務院素質不好所以我要跟你報告就是說,加州總額預算的國家沒有報告,剛才大家在堅持,因為這個總額預算太好的,行政單位完全沒有安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
30353.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
30363.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
國家沒有壓力全部只要協商完畢全部丟給醫界醫界已經這樣十五年來大家動不動你現在若沒有要處理護署一樣在做、美方一樣在做新冠病毒越來越嚴重一直燒起來,還要給一百萬人感染然後一直死,死亡率越來越高你就看著它你就要繼續這樣擺下去嗎然後平均說明越來越短 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
30385.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
30398.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
這笑死人吶吼所以所以我剛剛跟八大團體我跟他們講了我剛剛也有跟柯總召講了他們的要求非常的卑微來我們的醫療費用門診佔65% |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
30405.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
30419.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
四勝佔5%。」我們的住院才30%喔!現在最嚴重的就是住院住不下去,不然要扶手照料料所以他們要求很卑微的請求就是說住院還有門診手術還有急診 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
30421.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
30449.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
給他保障1.1塊錢。」這個剛剛時事署長也有部分講到了。然後門子的部分可以給他們補充0.95。我覺得他們要求很卑微、很好的、很起碼的請求。你若讓他們解除的錢,他們可以承諾多來改善勞動條件、增加工資。他們可以每一季報員工的薪資報上來。就好像我們新冠期間所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
30452.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
30474.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
新冠的特別預算撥補給這些防疫人員的獎金都是每一家醫院都要報電腦檔上來主席處都可以去查的所以他們都承諾因為這些醫護人員你不要把他留下來這是國家的資產你不要自己留下來遭料料救不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
30475.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
30483.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
二十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
30506.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
30531.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
不是要採訪阿娜啦,這件事你去說話,不是我們在座所有人、每一個人的想法大家在這裡就是要如何解決嘛所以我只覺得蔡依我剛才講說現在講的一文不值,因為你太多情緒的公職但是剛才有一個人坐進來叫做副總召坐進來然後就開始他從來不講話了,差不多了差不多要表管了 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
30533.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
30557.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
這套不是在演的,今天是一個非常嚴肅的時刻。包括剛才在揶揄說紐關邱部長以前當議員的時候的提案以及現在民進院縣長王醫師的提案我覺得法院長你有失蹤眼,你這樣輕蔑的效法不對,這是一個很嚴肅的。陳醫師也會把他撈回去,說陳醫師以前的提案2018年的時候的點子怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
30562.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
30570.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
我是覺得我們今天是一個非常嚴肅的時刻我為什麼要講這些呢?我剛才講過我沒有否認今天所有在這裡的人都要想辦法來解決一些問題但是剛才孫先生講到一句話總和只有台灣在有你要用什麼制度我們要開始談 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
30590.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
30616.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
我講這種健保法我1994年到現在我一直在30年我在現場我講台灣立法史上最荒謬的一刻好像在什麼時候2010年的時候那是什麼時代呢吳敦義當行政院長的時候我們知道所謂我們黨推行二代健保各位當初二代健保現在是什麼現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
30619.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
30627.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
那時候是要交付總統的現在是補充保費對不對各位知道那時候時代是在推交付總統的楊志強當署長的時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
30631.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
30654.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
五定義當行政院長的時候但是我為什麼是中華民國立法史上最荒謬的一刻呢?從2011年一直在討論當國民黨提出馬英九時代提出二代健保他是用什麼?用家戶總守的整個委員會已經開始審查審查七、八次那時候政委執行長是誰?就李義士那當然我還是民黨總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
30657.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
30679.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
所以我非常關心這個案子因為國民黨提出的所謂二代健保當然民進黨對於國民黨提出二代健保的交入總所得我們也有一些對岸那時候我們對岸寫二十幾條那條文裡面因為整個你看健保法這次改我們都提了對岸這對岸不是簡單提出內部還 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
30682.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
30697.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
開了很多次會議,包括那時候是蔡英文總統當主席,我們在野的時候,我們在州分黨部,在民進黨內部,在黨的會議上,包括林淑跟胡錦哲一直大吵。 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
30698.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
30705.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
30728.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
30752.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
到已經委員會審查七八次了你意思是說一定要出委員會好一定要出委員會沒有關係那來朝野協商委員會出委員會以後也朝野協商好幾次也一定好那年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年年 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
30754.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
30781.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
在表決之前開完黨黨會議一條一條拜託我們就整合好這一條我們立場就這樣輸了就輸因為我們只有二七席嘛但是我們立場我認輸我們版本是長得怎樣內幕都整合好我把所有部隊帶到一場就能夠開始表決很奇怪的景象發生國民黨不翼而飛找不完的這是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
30782.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
30810.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
這很奇怪那這一場竟然連國民黨一個都沒有來王院長現在好像你在的時候我們柯建銘開始開議好不好事項怎麼都沒有人今天要表決中大法案各黨都是假動了怎麼國民黨全部不見了原來國民黨業務炒得非常厲害不可以二代憲法不可以用交惡種種手的這是立法市長最荒謬的一課 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
30812.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
30837.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
從行政企業案到委員會審查、所有委員會草案、協商、衛生、表決、表決當天所有人都不見了,國民黨翻盤,只有國民黨做得到因為它中間內部有一些問題他們一直蓋住,到最後全部翻了,就不幹了既然就傳出來說國民黨不要了,要改,要改什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
30838.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
30844.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠補充保惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
30868.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
30891.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
大家都在意見裡面,只是大家看法上面,讓政治理念不一樣是一回事。但是在公共政策上,我們都一直打過仗,包括現在大家對公共政策上面的努力,以及在左眼。好,我問楊樹洋署長說,楊樹洋署長,你為了這個拜託很多次,又來給我討論,一條一條看,做到現在全部都白了。我說你應該為了政策負責,你應該辭職。 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
30898.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
30923.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
這樣才是一個政務官現在還在雖然他寫很多文章我都從不對於國家內容上面我是不一樣的意義上深刻永遠沒有辦法忘記那一刻他比了他臉他說他自己後援昨天應該下台啊他說我真的不好意思我後援因為他也沒有辦法下台下台國民黨也倒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
30925.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
30950.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
它是稱在那裏,它是這樣比的你問楊志強在我辦公室,然後他跟我講那個計畫柯總召,未來下次你民進黨執政的時候我再幫你們弄三代健保或是二點五那一項我拜託,不用不用不用,我你這個平安平安不通,拜託拜託這個,我想講這個歷史就要讓大家知道這個整個健保的制度要怎麼改 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
30951.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
30977.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
官方國民黨執政的時候、馬英九執政的時候改為現在的補充保費。剛才我們時事長也談到,那補充保費上面有什麼可以再增加,能夠增加一點收入。所以我今天要講這些話就是說,不是副本席委員來,欸,差不多後來標革了,咳了一口,不是這回事。剛才主席總書人講話還很保守, |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
30980.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
31008.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
你反而要提一個法案你做一個變更要替代財源這財源基法要增加國家支出你要增加財源你其實在我眼光裡面這次就是違反憲法整治了違反大法案4391以及264就是說你提一個法這樣修改點子至少增加一千億以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
31009.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
31033.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
這其實立法院可以提的行政部門自己去提一個計畫提一個制度出來改善計畫假如這麼簡單的話那早就處理了現在不是說共同攬牌合起來過半可以為所欲為我們現在看到你們現在有兩支箭是射在整個國家心臟第一個八美 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
31034.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
31040.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
本來罷免是可以罷免的,你用同樣罷免法,請把陳柏惟罷免掉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
31056.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
31063.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
所以同樣一個制度你可能罷免過人家現在整個你違憲端在你名義起來你怕被罷免又換週了 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
31066.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
31087.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
又要改深圳,深圳就是沒有罷免。第二之件是什麼?就是憲法修正法改變,要加工憲法。這個東西我倒是覺得每一個政治人物乃至於這個行政官員都在處理公共事務的人要憲法及公法的基本概念。 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
31089.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
31099.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
不是我們加起來又說一條要表決贏的就是要增加一千億的支出這個是可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
31100.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
31123.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
所以當然很理性的你要砍頭我今天講說因為我在現場從1994年到30年來我不敢講我是最內行的因為當初民進黨裡面發言最多是誰?是沈大老他只能保重病小病不保了所以很多制度的選擇上面包括剛才蘇貞映講說那董事長要匯掉算了好匯掉要用什麼制度?能不能談清楚呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
31125.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
31147.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
你這樣一直增加保險的時候,總共支出就破產,盡頭就破產了嘛。這個影響的幅度之大,大家好好想一想,我不是不可以討論的人,我希望我們有反擊輕重,包括剛才邱太元,因為當民意代表, |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
31148.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
31160.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
和當任官不一樣,我都體會。」他當民意代表的時候,美英文講法民意代表是他的提案而已,提案而已,不是修法的,你今天是要修法的。當民意代表的時候他講450億,那今天不止了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
31164.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
31185.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
因為當然不只嘛,要你一巴嘛,假如450億可以解決,那可能還有解放。今天不只,還有很多制度上面的修改。我剛才招職也講過,分歧制度怎麼,我們還有很多,像藝民大家都很了解的,所以我們應該用一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
31187.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
31204.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
簽譯性的原則來看待這個事情,不是以強制性的原則,我今天就先這樣給你表決,不然我等人來,什麼都沒人說,來表決,明天來談就可以。也就是說,那八大公院去看你的時候,你韓院長講的錯,沒有關係,你第一案就把它表決掉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
31205.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
31220.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
如此可以嗎?我沒有講說第一案第一案就是要處理嘛我只要再想推說一點,您代表很重要第一案代表要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
31220.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
31247.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
但是我們今天所有的過程中我非常推卸雜招中央議事因為我們今天不是在談匯薪單證、大家在那裡賣淚酒我們今天剛剛俗語一個正教法、正教育法我很感謝在黨朋友包括副總召以及中小企業發展條例大家都很理性的台灣所以今天公共政策先是何其重大曾經是我們國家的光榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
31248.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
31274.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
我們不應該把他一直問了,但是我們知道要怎麼救他,我們要大家來想這是大家想到的稍微有輕易性的原則謝謝柯總召,接下來我們請傅坤祺總召發言陳昭志委員請準備謝謝院長啊,耐心的等候跟聽大家所有的這些發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
31276.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
31297.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
我真的非常敬佩我非常敬佩執政黨今天講的每一句話都刻骨銘心一定要有財政機遇一定不能違反憲法一定不能毀憲亂政但是我們必須要很務實地來面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
31299.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
31325.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
台灣人才的流失。」其實今天討論的我們所有的內容你趕快出去抽菸啦不要吵啦我們很務實來看台灣人才的流失啦今天下午大概討論的都是關於這方面主要的事情為什麼這麼多人才不斷在流失台灣的醫界啊不只是台灣的寶啊更是台灣之光啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
31327.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
31355.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
過去過去台灣的醫界是亞洲第一啊那時候我們不在日本之下是亞洲第一啊我小時候對不對能考上醫科的有幾個嘛對不對國家所有的精英最頂尖的人才都投入醫界對包括邱部長對不對那在這個領域裡面出來大家在 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
31356.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
31385.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
整個台灣的醫療界創造了奇蹟但是成績何時現在到新加坡去到香港去是台灣的三倍薪資我們的醫界現在變成血汗工廠從COVID-19過了以後有多少大幅的流失以前醫院是搶著要開床地方的衛生單位同意還有中央的衛福部同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
31386.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
31408.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十五條條文修正草案第十六條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修正草案第十八條條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
31412.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
31439.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
我們台灣以後醫界要何懼何寵啊?難道我們都要以後都要拜託菲律賓的畢業生印尼的畢業生那些醫界的人來做台灣的主流醫界的儲備人才嗎?現在已經台灣就很多菲律賓的醫生了以後不是菲律賓菲律賓人都不願意來台灣了以後是印尼的醫生在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
31442.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
31468.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
我們一定要走成這個樣子嗎?臺灣真的有這麼悲哀嗎?執政黨如果覺得臺灣有這麼悲哀,沒有這樣花錢,有人花沒關係嘛。所以說,啊你都不要花錢就算啦嘛,就領土啊你就好嘛,對吧?我真的是聽到齁,我剛剛不勝唏噓啊,真的齁,我真的,第一個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
31470.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
31486.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
我們這樣講真的我們是不是要好好來檢討台灣整體的制度那我在這裡還是要再一次對現在我們這些好朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
31494.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
31521.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
副制度的全國空檔會議。前進基隆造勢,賴清德喊話開專家會議改革健保及副制度,也提出平均健保點值1.1元的目標,讓一介辛苦不在北溪市事隔一天。我真的要,我真的太崇拜你們了,說這是毀憲亂政,違反憲法,你說民意代表講就算了,他這個中華民國的副總統, |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
31523.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
31528.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
31541.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
31549.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
我們真的要感謝邱部長當時的提案我們就正面的回應一切好不好好不好我為你鼓掌也正面回應賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
31559.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
31582.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
草案相關你這樣才是就結束啊不是啦,大家都說完了阿阿沒說完阿草案相關你怎麼不知道阿差不多了要來表決阿等一下我絕對有意見等一下好好談一下你先聽我尊重一下主席先把麥克風壓掉麻煩一下柯總首盡量精準精準精準精準精準醫療精準醫療來 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
31588.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
31593.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
對不起陳昭志維你稍微等一下你在柯委員後面好嗎沒關係你先講沒關係老朋友來你先 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
31596.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
31618.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
那柯總長要讓你明先,招職委員請發言好謝謝主席我們今天談的這個問題已經不是今天這兩天發生了已經存在很久了可能有一二十年之久所以如果你們要談財政紀律我可不可以談行政怠惰尤其一屆長期是比較高的比率是支持民進黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
31620.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
31634.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
老實說這個執政黨其實對不起議界真的是蠻久的時間3.5%的GDP要照顧百分之百的民眾要照顧所有的疾病真的是血汗加這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
31635.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
31645.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
31659.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
31669.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
處長我要告訴您說這兩年您開始覺得這個該用的藥要去用早期有多少樣做好事我這兩月特別回去去參加一些新藥審查會議大家完全沒有我給大家一個數字您剛剛說蘇委員說新的藥新藥進行500不是癌藥是782天 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
31680.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
31692.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
而且只給適應證法定用途裡面的三成所以有一些人同樣的適應證他用不到為什麼我們要設限因為沒有足夠的投資然後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
31697.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
31715.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
全世界只有台灣發明一件事情你知道我們用癌藥來治療都要治療到沒效為止這個是倫理的問題臨床試驗的絕對倫理學問題比如說你做了什麼不效了就是疾病開始進展表示這個藥對你沒效你都要再去找別的藥但是只有台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
31716.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
31736.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
他給你限制幾週、幾個月、幾個療程。」王振旭委員您也很清楚我們為什麼這樣做就是沒錢就是說沒錢健保錢不夠我做的都覺得我很違背我的良心這兩個月我回去署長既然好像前景要開始改變了專家們全部都變成在做財務 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
31738.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
31766.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
專家臨床的醫師本來是要就臨床的價值這個要不要做好這個很有效非常好然後進入以後他財務衝擊可能要幾億癌症本來就是很多病人啊幾億這麼有效的包括一個GDP全部就停住全部就問你有多少錢我們怎麼做我們要怎麼限制這個使用所有的專家都在做財務的管理你那個委員會真的是可以不用聘臨床醫師了 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
31768.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
31770.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
三條條例部分條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
31784.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
31797.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
二十三條條文修正草案。當然,健保點數、扣除醫院營運成本、行政費用必要、設備費用等有關待遇提升的部分,雖然在護病比、健保支付聯動都做,但現在成效有限。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
31799.412 |
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31808.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
二十三條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 及全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
31816.306 |
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31823.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
你缺乏的人員的薪酬跟他的工作環境。」這個在我附帶決議裡面我有提出這個附帶決議這個部分要趕快去做第二個大家不要太忽視你這個51條這個只需要的部分你要說服民眾告訴民眾部長當年我跟你一起合作健康達人125那本書就是我們想要把一些小病症民眾或是在社區可以處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
31842.853 |
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31854.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
因為那時候我們已經見到未來的醫療進步未來越昂貴但是我們要照顧重病重症啊所以你到現在只是要就是說都還留在裡面然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
31855.919 |
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31879.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
你不要覺得說那只是一二十億的錢部長署長他會帶動一些就醫的一個行為的改變你做話只要少一次這一次我自己去處理到社交合格鑰匙處理鑰匙現在分數也都很高都是很優秀的人才你少一次就少掉三百多億為什麼還這麼猶豫不去做所以這個部分我們覺得要有時程表不然你就把這個法修過 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
31879.594 |
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31887.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
二十三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
31896.661 |
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31909.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
三條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案、全民健康保險法第十四條條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
31918.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
31924.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
二十三條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修正草案第十四條條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
31943.182 |
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31961.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
所以這個東西就是說種種這個措施包括我剛剛提的那幾個點那分級醫療你們逆行道失嘛你就說要做分級醫療你說往下小病症要讓下面的人來承擔但是醫學中心一直增加嘛那醫學中心病床還在增加嘛所以你做的事都在惡化這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
31962.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
31966.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
31983.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
32003.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
所以有些時候你自己照顧一下自己,你的重病大病我們會照顧你,如果有人跟我簽約說你的小毛病我到這個年紀不會有人跟我簽約了,如果小毛病都自己付錢我以後重病全部國家付,這是精神啊,你說90%的民眾有滿意度,你如果去問那些重症急症、寒症、難症那些病人家屬,他的滿意度絕對不是這樣,民眾的滿意度在哪?因為他不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
32007.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
32021.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
他不知道醫療指標整個落後一方便啦方便就醫啦他的滿意度在這個地方要繼續往下問他的滿意度那為什麼醫療的人員他的不滿意度這麼高那你也要問他們的這個想法不要用一個滿意度就來處理所以為什麼我了解執政黨不處理滿意度90我幹嘛去改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
32031.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
32048.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
那今天大家丟出的問題就是假的嗎?不是假的啊!都存在啊!所以我覺得執政黨尤其一屆一直長期大部分比喻都是支持這個執政黨的你們真的要好好去思考這個問題然後把這些不好意思我今天的附帶決議部長跟署長我正是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
32054.7 |
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32076.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
審查會保留的負債券。」當然不只這些東西,所以我希望你們有具體的提出的這個方案出來。好,謝謝。謝謝。謝謝昭志委員發言。今天我們請柯總召,請,麻煩。呃,我仔細聆聽陳昭志委員的談話,他最後一句,就是憲法滿意度將近90,所以執行長不改,不對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
32077.808 |
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32100.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
當然我們這個是剛才柯市長講過一般民眾的看法但是相對的醫藥界有很多不同意見今天才要改啊面對這個問題非常嚴重啊所以沒有所謂存在所謂說哦印度接罰九十買印度九十所以市政黨不改每一個當中執政的都在想辦法常常在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
32101.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
32126.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
我剛才講過2010年的時候加厚總守德改為補充保費是一夕間翻轉表決要填開然後再發一年時間到了2013才改為改到新的二代健保也就是補充保費所以每一個執政者都是在想要怎麼處理每一個執政當然也在想那時候二代健保突然翻轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
32127.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
32149.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
但二零一三到一月一號開始實施的補充保費到現在當然有些我們今天講的我不希望就是說餘款虧報啦陳昭樹委員從藥界角度來講你剛才所談的意思我很清楚就是保大不保小吧只是用藥的話不要那麼健保這樣可以嗎可是這個以後那這個不能亂吃藥啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
32152.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
32168.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
這很多是相對的問題不是用簡單的邏輯來處理的這也要看我承認沒千瘡百孔都要改坦白講如何開源解鈾所有人都在想方法總來講貧窮夫妻當然百思哀 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
32171.67 |
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32195.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
當然我們現在但是邱部長剛剛有談到36%的部分有一些可以拿出來還有政府的預算挖出來這些他是很誠懇的該講的道理都講出來了那這些夠不夠當然不是這樣簡單的簡單的就是說就這樣表決掉就算了請問我剛才一直講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
32200.595 |
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32214.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
回到新聞提示上面請看憲法七十條請跟大法官解釋沒有人可以提案那為什麼婚姻集團兩兆元他自己要丟起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
32215.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
32229.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
兩兆人不是到7月16號以前要表決相關的要丟起來嗎?我沒有亂講啊!事實查核中心已經講是民進黨亂講的你可以上網去看一下事實查核中心已經講那是亂講那是假消息假訊兩兆是民進黨自己講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
32231.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
32240.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
沒有這回事,請自己看一下,看一下,這是BOT的案子,好不好?不要再回這,今天當然是提外話,好都比較好,我講的都比較好,沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
32259.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
32287.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
衛生署委員都求委員長都請下來,不敢處理了。今天這個題外話,我再來還是要講一句話,衛生部沒有處理,我們大家都了解,我也想要處理,讓很多人去滿足,但是現在反其輕鬆應該怎麼處理,必須還是有配套還有想法,才能夠所謂的睡醒。我也想要說,大家都拍手, |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
32288.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
32293.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
三條條文修正草案條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
32317.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
32341.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
健保法第六十二條修正條文修正條文,我們並沒有達成共識。我想我們就下一次繼續來協商,草引協商。好不好?好,那我們今天另外要徵詢一下各位,邱部長,您先請回,謝謝啊,邱部長,對,對,謝謝你們啊,今天麻煩你們一下午了,謝謝啊。另外我要問一下黨團幹部,另外黨團幹部,我們等一下,各位黨團幹部請問一下,我們等一下還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
32358.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
32363.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
那我們就下星期一下午兩點我們繼續開會非常感謝大家好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
32462.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
32473.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
好我們星期一下午兩點半繼續協商就不另發文了好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
32551.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
32555.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
草案協商在溝通我們禮拜一下午3點開始我們會發一個書面通知 |